My previous Thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2910364&page=11--------------------
No, I don't think she will come back. If I insinuated that, I didn't mean to. I agree, there is no movement in the "back together" direction. Its only been a month since she moved out. There is not chance that she would change her mind in that time frame. If and when she does get a job things will get harder for her.
The divorce / mediation looks like its going to move pretty fast. I am shocked we could file by April. And then I'm told its 3-5 months from that point until it is done.
Drop off with the kids was hard on me again; having to wake my son up on his day off and haul my daughter out of the house in her PJ's when they should be able to stay put really pissed me off and made me sad for them.
Yesterday was great, we snowboarded all day and then last night we set up my new projector in my room and all laid on my bed to watch shows. That was fun.
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I'm going out to dinner and drinks with a friend tonight. Don't have anything planned tomorrow for New Years Eve yet, but that might be for the best. A friend did say he might have people over but he hasn't finalized it. I just assume go to bed early and get up to work out before I get the kids back.
Today is weird. I haven't had any feelings of anxiety in about a week and today they are back. I'm not sure what set that off exactly. Could have been a couple of things.
The STBXW and I have had a lot of interaction recently. I was good coming out of Christmas but then Sunday I picked my son up and she invited me in. Then that night she sent me some texts because she was angry that I was letting my son have a friend stay the night. Monday we had a two hour mediation session. And now I'm getting all of these emails from the attorney's as we try to schedule our future meetings; so I'm on a bid of an overload.
It shows how no contact is very helpful. I was really doing pretty good, and I'll be fine, but I hate feeling anxious. It just clouds all my thoughts and hurts my focus.
Scotty B,
I would nip that in the bud right now that she’s not going to dictate to you what is right and wrong when you have the kids unless it’s something egregious.
Yeah NC is not a ploy to get your W back it’s for your detachment.
Question for the field: on Facebook you can update relationship status from married to separated. Any thoughts on doing that?
Well, who are you trying to tell, and why?
(Often, this doesn’t work out well, because it’s a veiled bid for a reaction. Thinking about who you want to tell and what reaction you want can be helpful imho.)
No. I have never ever had a FB relationship status. You can actually leave that blank
Just make it blank like G said. I would not put separated.
Question for the field: on Facebook you can update relationship status from married to separated. Any thoughts on doing that?
FB is the source of endless problems for the LBS. If you want to change something related to it is suggest suspending your account for the time-being. You struggling with what to do relationship status is a perfect example of those problems. If you just have to stay on FB (I never understand that stance but OK) then listen to ginger. Blank it out and move on.
I changed mine yesterday. Used to say “in relationship” now it’s hidden/says nothing.
Also had a cover photo from our wedding and now have nothing, made sure to remove it without there being a notification to everyone.
If you don’t want a divorce from the beginning I think it is strange if you change this already. Just my opinion.
For reference I filed for divorce in March.
I got rid of FB on the day of my divorce. Don't regret it. Since then, I've gotten rid of all social media. Don't regret that either.
For those allergic to social media, how do you record, share, and look back on holidays and vacations?
20 years ago I used photo albums. So. Time. Consuming!
Today was a tough day. I did a poor job of finding something to do for New Years Eve and I've been alone all day. I learned a couple of things.
First, have a plan and follow the plan. I had planned to work all day - that would have helped a lot. I still could have planned something to do tonight, I'm not sure why I didn't reach out to anyone. That was a failure.
So for next weekend, when I won't have the kids, I planned a spiritual retreat. That will help check off those days. Then two weeks from then, I planned a trip to FL for the 5 days I don't have the kids. That effectively will get me through the month of January.
I've been taking in some Richard Cooper and Elliot Hulse. I'm not sure what I make of that. Its interesting.
I get the kids tomorrow at 10am which will help me with feelings of loneliness. I'm hoping that as we get back to normal work weeks I won't struggle as much with feeling lonely.
For those allergic to social media, how do you record, share, and look back on holidays and vacations?
20 years ago I used photo albums. So. Time. Consuming!
Google photos.
Today was a tough day. I did a poor job of finding something to do for New Years Eve and I've been alone all day. I learned a couple of things.
First, have a plan and follow the plan. I had planned to work all day - that would have helped a lot. I still could have planned something to do tonight, I'm not sure why I didn't reach out to anyone. That was a failure.
So for next weekend, when I won't have the kids, I planned a spiritual retreat. That will help check off those days. Then two weeks from then, I planned a trip to FL for the 5 days I don't have the kids. That effectively will get me through the month of January.
I've been taking in some Richard Cooper and Elliot Hulse. I'm not sure what I make of that. Its interesting.
I get the kids tomorrow at 10am which will help me with feelings of loneliness. I'm hoping that as we get back to normal work weeks I won't struggle as much with feeling lonely.
Sorry man. Gal does require a bit of planning. However, there are things you can do to stay busy without planning. Reading is always a good go to. I'm a big fan of self learning too. Whether online training or videos. Always be self improving!
First time in my life I’ve spent New Year’s Eve alone. First year in 25 I didn’t have sex. 2020 was the worst year yet. Thank God it’s over. I know that with the calendar things don’t change, and 2021 is going to be hard too. I’ll lose half of what I have worked for and get divorced. But I’m not in limbo, there is movement. I can make my own decisions, so there are some positives. I wouldn’t wish my last year on anyone, and really most of the real pain was in the last three months. I’m going to bed early, I’ll work out in the morning, go to church, get my kids, and watch some football. Today is behind me and tomorrow is ahead, it will be better.
Scott, prayers for you my friend. Upward and onward!
Today is behind me and tomorrow is ahead, it will be better.
Keep the positive attitude. You have the power to experience a great 2021.
First time in my life I’ve spent New Year’s Eve alone. First year in 25 I didn’t have sex. 2020 was the worst year yet. Thank God it’s over. I know that with the calendar things don’t change, and 2021 is going to be hard too. I’ll lose half of what I have worked for and get divorced. But I’m not in limbo, there is movement. I can make my own decisions, so there are some positives. I wouldn’t wish my last year on anyone, and really most of the real pain was in the last three months. I’m going to bed early, I’ll work out in the morning, go to church, get my kids, and watch some football. Today is behind me and tomorrow is ahead, it will be better.
This is one reason why I am so glad to have this place. It's easy to feel so alone on a holiday and get discouraged. I think many of us feel it. But we are all sending out support vibes to each other for sure. I am feeling sad tonight, too, and a little anxious about the new year. But also trying to believe that there will be so much good in it too.
I didn’t sleep great. Got up at 7a and headed to the gym. On my way I got to thinking that maybe these last days has been more about the reality of the fact this is how life is now. I think I’d been looking forward to spending Christmas together as a family and that helped me in December.
I do get the kids back today (but the last time i had them i could feel the loneliness too) so we’ll see how it goes and how i feel. I’m looking forward to getting back to regular work weeks and I have a lot planned for January. My GAL game is pretty strong but this is hard, and after 20 years with someone always there, it is lonely.
Scott, I feel for you man. I know that this is difficult. With time it will get better. This is also why I was against the joint Christmas, I felt it would set you back in your detachment. It also felt like she was throwing you some breadcrumbs and doing you a favor. Never a healthy place to be with a WAS. I think the message it would have sent her to have insisted on separate Christmases would have been profound. And would help your kids be less confused about reality moving forward. And it would have helped you start getting some respect back. You held onto the joint Christmas out of fear and anxiety.
Water under the bridge. Onwards and upwards in 2021!
Wow, Scotty, something you said really stood out to me. Maybe a misuse of words, maybe not.
You said you spent the last 20 years of your life, trying to create the best life and future FOR her. She’s an adult woman. Her spouse should be building a life WITH her, not FOR her.
Ginger - I completely agree with you. When I would ask my wife what she wanted in the future she would say “I don’t think like that” or “I don’t set goals.” It made it hard to builds a life together. I planned all our trips and vacations, all our dates, everything. I struggled to get her to speak up and she would often say she didn’t have a voice. It was a struggle.
Wow, Scotty, something you said really stood out to me. Maybe a misuse of words, maybe not.
You said you spent the last 20 years of your life, trying to create the best life and future FOR her. She’s an adult woman. Her spouse should be building a life WITH her, not FOR her.
Ginger - I completely agree with you. When I would ask my wife what she wanted in the future she would say “I don’t think like that” or “I don’t set goals.” It made it hard to builds a life together. I planned all our trips and vacations, all our dates, everything. I struggled to get her to speak up and she would often say she didn’t have a voice. It was a struggle.
Obviously, you know now that is a huge red flag. I point it out for newcomers that might read this. One of the first signs of trouble in my own sitch was my W quit talking about the future and future plans. We had talked about buying a new house 4 1/2 years before BD. She immersed herself in searching for houses, and I dragged my feet. She didn't know that I was putting cash away so we could buy a new house before selling our old one. I was getting a down payment in place. 6 months before BD she gave up on the house search. For nearly 5 years finding houses was her pastime, but suddenly any mention of a new house was met with head shaking and insistence that she was done looking for a house. Snooping after BD revealed she had been looking up apartments for several weeks. She also no longer discussed having people over, future vacations, or any other future plans. In hindsight I probably should have seen BD coming. There were red flags everywhere.
Steve - I agree, but my wife was like this from the jump. She never liked making decisions. Her boyfriend went to the college she chose. Her dad told her what she should major in and where she should work. After college she lived in an apartment he owned. When she moved 800 miles to get closer to me, I picked out her next apartment and a year later she moved in with me. She just never really made her own decisions her whole life. She just kind of goes with the flow and then gets upset when things don’t go her way.
———-
I don’t know if it’s good or bad, but my daughter just had another crying spell about the divorce. Good because at least she is letting it out from time to time. Bad because it breaks my heart.
I saw my STBXW at church today, she sat with us. On the way out she told each of the kids she loved them, I said have a happy Sunday and she didn’t acknowledge me. She’s the Ice Queen. Total opposite of the woman I married. She used to exude warmth and love. Her mom is icy as all get out as well.
She texted me today that if I needed help with her watching my daughter while my son had sports
Practice she could. I just said i had it taken care of.
Today I had less anxiety. I can’t figure out the ebb and flow. It really seemed to calm down when a friend and his boys came over last night and we played ping pong in my party shack till 11p watching football with the projector. I think a key for me is having other adults around from time to time. Helps with my loneliness.
It’s sounds like 20 years of trying to get someone to be something they aren’t. That almost never works. It sounds like she showed you who she was from the beginning. And your overcompensation was the result, probably hoping she would change. Sounds like a lot of incompatibility . And a whole lot of enabling. Why did you pick out her apartment? Did she ask you to? Or was she not making the decision as fast as you wanted, or in the way you wanted, so you jumped in? It also sounds like you picked up more of a role of father, rather than partner ?
It was a matter of time before one day she woke up and decided to take control of her life. And what you are telling us is starting to make a lot of sense about where things are. She woke up one day unhappy with her life, and turned to the person that was making all of her decisions for her and blamed him for her unhappiness. Scott, we all know you're not responsible for her happiness or unhappiness, she is....but the truth doesn't matter. One day she may realize that despite changing her life and jettisoning the person she blamed, that she is still unhappy. Probably won't happen for a longtime, and when they happens you'll probably have moved on and won't be interested, but eventually she'll realize the only one to blame for her unhappiness is her.
Ginger and Steve85 - I agree with both of you. Spot on. And I guess nothing I can do about it but move on. Its just so horrible. I've read the last resort technique and all the advice here is not to reach out to her. It never worked before and I'm not sure she has had enough reality yet.
I don't think she'll see this for what it is for a long time. Its depressing and sad and horrible. I hate seeing my family get blown up like this. I want to call her and try to level with her, and I know it would be of no use. It just [censored].
Ginger and Steve85 - I agree with both of you. Spot on. And I guess nothing I can do about it but move on. Its just so horrible. I've read the last resort technique and all the advice here is not to reach out to her. It never worked before and I'm not sure she has had enough reality yet.
I don't think she'll see this for what it is for a long time. Its depressing and sad and horrible. I hate seeing my family get blown up like this. I want to call her and try to level with her, and I know it would be of no use. It just [censored].
What you are struggling with is something cadet refers to as the illusion of action. Doing nothing feels foreign and unnatural so you feel there is something you should do. cadet likes to point out that doing NOTHING is doing something. Making the decision to NOT reach out ot her is as much of as an action as reaching out to her would be. And in the LRT that is the right action, and actually reaching out would be the wrong action. Trying to talk her into changing her mind has a very low likelihood of working, makes you look needy and weak, and will likely do more harm than good. This is a woman that is completely ignoring you running into at church, so it is illogical to believe that another reach out and leveling with her would change anything. LRT is counter-intuitive, but if you think about it, acting intuitively hasn't worked. The only other choice is to do the counter-intuitive and give it time.
Your best hope is that she does what I suggested above. Some day wake up to the fact that she is no longer with you, yet she is still unhappy. And therefore that means that you weren't the reason for her unhappiness. When that happens she may or may not reach out to you and want to talk, get together, etc. By time that happens, maybe several years from now, you will probably have completely moved on and be uninterested. But at a minimum she may share with you that she made a mistake.
Scott, 2021 is going to be a good year for you! Believe it or not. Once you get through all of this, like so many others that have been through it, you will see light at the end of the tunnel. And you might come to the realization that you really weren't all that happy yourself with your the state of your MR, and that happier times are ahead of you.
It’s been a month. Truthfully, so you want her to run back and you continue to take on the role of being dad, rather than be husband? You already have the instincts to scold her like a child and let her know she is making a mistake.
For any sort of healthy future the dynamics have to change big time. And that’s going to take a lot of work apart.
You need to learn how to exist for yourself. Not for someone else. And she has to learn how to exist in her own. It’s necessary . Tough, but necessary
I completely agree with you. When I would ask my wife what she wanted in the future she would say “I don’t think like that” or “I don’t set goals.” It made it hard to builds a life together. I planned all our trips and vacations, all our dates, everything. I struggled to get her to speak up and she would often say she didn’t have a voice. It was a struggle.
This was my life! This was/is my H, and it was so frustrating to get him to express his thoughts, dreams, etc. Guess what? That part of him never changed. I wanted to have deep and meaningful conversations.......and he didn't. I had to accept that part of him. So, I get what you are saying.
Ginger - You're really good at this.
I just want to know where I'm at in this thing. I either want to move on and get on with my life - which I can do full steam ahead or Hang on. But hanging on without knowing where she is at is tough. I know she is confused. I know that as of right now she isn't happy and she is more miserable than she was.
But you are right. The dad thing is a really interesting observation an
Thank you. I have been at this for way way way too long, lol.
Why are you hanging on to anything ? You are separated and headed to divorce right now. That is where you are. You can get on with your life full steam ahead.
But I’m afraid getting on with your life means dating?
Do you really think you should be dating right now even if you knew for sure that it was over and done?
Because I am pretty sure that would just lead to you in the same spot with a different woman until you work on your urges to make someone else’s life your priority and live for for them. Or to rescue.
Or to do everything for them. Which I am sure your anxiety is what helps you lead to those behaviors.
Your life right now should look the same whether or not she might come back or not. It’s a great time either way to get to know yourself as an individual without another woman dictating your identity
I just want to know where I'm at in this thing. I either want to move on and get on with my life - which I can do full steam ahead or Hang on. But hanging on without knowing where she is at is tough.
It's easier, IMHO, if "moving on" and "hanging on" recommend similar actions. If "moving on" means downloading Tinder and finding a hook-up as a surrogate for our ex's, I see the angst.
My "intermediate girlfriend" (for want of a better word) reminded me a few times she wasn't my ex and couldn't hike for 16hrs straight. Several commented KitKat has replaced her angst about her ex-husband with angst about "pilot". Fireman's brief tumble hurt his reconciliation chances. Wolfman got his GF pregnant.
If "moving on" is about working on you and what you need to be happy on your own it's a whole different ball game, because those are the same you do for "hanging on". Can you set and execute goals related to your and your children's happiness so you live a life "with" a partner instead of "for" a partner? If you wanted to be your best self, what would you change, and isn't all this newfound free time optimal for making it happen?
Scotty B
So let’s look at her actions:
Bought a house
Filing for divorce
Treating you coldly
Do these actions speak of confusion?
I know you’re a very smart man but I think your emotions are blinding you.
I just want to know where I'm at in this thing. I either want to move on and get on with my life - which I can do full steam ahead or Hang on. But hanging on without knowing where she is at is tough. I know she is confused. I know that as of right now she isn't happy and she is more miserable than she was.
There is no hanging on. You can have faith in the process. Apply the "stockdale paradox" to your current sitch. You are divorced.
That doesn't mean you have to latch onto another woman.
The last thing you need right now is another woman to complicate your life. Take time to be content alone.
That doesn't mean you don't interact with women. Enjoy every interaction with every woman. You can practice new skills. Just do it without any intentions. Or at least the only intention is to make them feel good in your presence.
Scott, I am confused about what you think your alternative to moving on is? You have no choice but to move on. Look at acttions. Nothing she is doing even hints that there is another option at this point. Do not stand still for anyone. Either she will get interested in the new and improved Scott and want to follow him, or she won't. Either way Scott is moving on in his life to his best life possible! Stop cycling, break the cycle, and stop trying to read things into her that aren't there.
You've got this!
Scott, I am confused about what you think your alternative to moving on is? You have no choice but to move on. Look at acttions. Nothing she is doing even hints that there is another option at this point. Do not stand still for anyone. Either she will get interested in the new and improved Scott and want to follow him, or she won't. Either way Scott is moving on in his life to his best life possible! Stop cycling, break the cycle, and stop trying to read things into her that aren't there.
You've got this!
Do not say "move on". It sounds like the final nail in the marriage coffin. Say "move forward". It has a much better ring to it.
IMO divorce is the final nail in the coffin for marriage 1.0.
Scott, I am confused about what you think your alternative to moving on is? You have no choice but to move on. Look at acttions. Nothing she is doing even hints that there is another option at this point. Do not stand still for anyone. Either she will get interested in the new and improved Scott and want to follow him, or she won't. Either way Scott is moving on in his life to his best life possible! Stop cycling, break the cycle, and stop trying to read things into her that aren't there.
You've got this!
Do not say "move on". It sounds like the final nail in the marriage coffin. Say "move forward". It has a much better ring to it.
THIS!
Thanks Vapo, this is exactly right.
This was a pretty awesome panel of folks that hit this thread over the past 24. Amazing that you all took the time, thank you.
Originally posted by Ginger1:
Why are you hanging on to anything ? You are separated and headed to divorce right now. That is where you are. You can get on with your life full steam ahead.
But I’m afraid getting on with your life means dating?
Do you really think you should be dating right now even if you knew for sure that it was over and done?
Because I am pretty sure that would just lead to you in the same spot with a different woman until you work on your urges to make someone else’s life your priority and live for for them. Or to rescue.
Or to do everything for them. Which I am sure your anxiety is what helps you lead to those behaviors.
Your life right now should look the same whether or not she might come back or not. It’s a great time either way to get to know yourself as an individual without another woman dictating your identity
Ginger - You're right. I'm just in so much emotional pain and I'm struggling to cope. I feel alone and lonely at times and I don't want to be alone.
It's easier, IMHO, if "moving on" and "hanging on" recommend similar actions. If "moving on" means downloading Tinder and finding a hook-up as a surrogate for our ex's, I see the angst.
My "intermediate girlfriend" (for want of a better word) reminded me a few times she wasn't my ex and couldn't hike for 16hrs straight. Several commented KitKat has replaced her angst about her ex-husband with angst about "pilot". Fireman's brief tumble hurt his reconciliation chances. Wolfman got his GF pregnant.
If "moving on" is about working on you and what you need to be happy on your own it's a whole different ball game, because those are the same you do for "hanging on". Can you set and execute goals related to your and your children's happiness so you live a life "with" a partner instead of "for" a partner? If you wanted to be your best self, what would you change, and isn't all this newfound free time optimal for making it happen?
CW - I hear you. This is a tough time of year with the winter. In a different time of year I think I'd be able to do more of my hobbies (biking, kayaking, taking up a motorcycle is a thought). But maybe not, maybe I'd still feel lonely - I don't know. From about April through November in my neighborhood, everyone hangs out on their porches and drinks beers; that can't happen right now, its too cold. I'm doing a really good job with the kids right now. I have a spiritual retreat this weekend, maybe that will provide some fuel for finding my best self again. I'm just not hungry to read books to get my mind there and motivated right now - I'm depressed and just trying to deal.
So let’s look at her actions:
Bought a house
Filing for divorce
Treating you coldly
Do these actions speak of confusion?
I know you’re a very smart man but I think your emotions are blinding you.
LH - The actions you named do not speak of confusion. Does Christmas speak of confusion? She was confiding in me about her job search, talking about the challenges of the new home, took a nap at my house on Christmas day, stayed here with the kids until 4:30p when I needed to ask them to go because I had plans (they were supposed to leave after breakfast). Of course she could have been doing it for the kids, and of course she could have had a weak moment. I think everything is on a spectrum. The weight of evidence is strongly in the divorce, no reconciliation camp. But her reaching out to me the other day to say she was making a scrapbook online of the kids childhood and asking if I wanted her to print me one or the other day when she asked if I needed help getting my son to soccer practice, I don't know - those are interesting moments to. I found out she did get a job offer, and she has not shared that with me -happened a week ago. So most of the signals, but not quite all, point in the direction you laid out. And yes, my emotions are not helping me.
Stockdale Paradox Lesson "This is a very important lesson. You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end—which you can never afford to lose —with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”
R2C -
Take time to be content alone.
I wrote this down in my journal. I find I'm more content when I make a habit of practicing centering prayer, which is like mediation, which I did today. I need to keep working to do the activities that soothe my soul. Its not easy. Taking walks, centering prayer, these activities help soothe me. I just forget to keep up with them sometimes. I was working to learn guitar and that's soothing, but as of late I've found it to feel like too much work, it feels depressing to think about doing by myself. I do think I'm depressed, maybe not dealing with depression, but I'm depressed.
Scott, I am confused about what you think your alternative to moving on is? You have no choice but to move on. Look at actions. Nothing she is doing even hints that there is another option at this point. Do not stand still for anyone. Either she will get interested in the new and improved Scott and want to follow him, or she won't. Either way Scott is moving on in his life to his best life possible! Stop cycling, break the cycle, and stop trying to read things into her that aren't there.
You've got this!
Steve85 - I know you're right. I want to sit her down and just say "Are you sure?" And I want to hear "Yes" or "No". But you're right, her actions should speak loud enough for me. There is a part of me that thinks that if I don't ask, the answer is obvious, but if I ask, maybe there is a chance that she says she is questioning. I've read nothing that recommends doing that, everything I've read calls it pursuit and says it will push her farther away than she already is, and I've been replaying in my mind a conversation we had in April, when she told me I wasn't going to stop her this time. I guess this is just a process, and I'm making my messy way through it.
LH - So in theory, the final nail in the coffin for marriage 1.0 is a good thing? And if I can heal and grow, I'll be able to choose the best and healthiest path for myself, my kids, and my life at that point? I'm just not healthy yet.
And between the sports and school and the divorce, there is no ability to go no contact. Our mediation sessions are scheduled every other week for the next two months. This week we are getting together to refinance out of the house.
Its hard to go very long without seeing her or having to email with her and that doesn't help. I check my email half wanting to have gotten something from her, but mostly praying that I haven't gotten anything from her.
LH - The actions you named do not speak of confusion. Does Christmas speak of confusion? She was confiding in me about her job search, talking about the challenges of the new home, took a nap at my house on Christmas day, stayed here with the kids until 4:30p when I needed to ask them to go because I had plans (they were supposed to leave after breakfast). Of course she could have been doing it for the kids, and of course she could have had a weak moment. I think everything is on a spectrum. The weight of evidence is strongly in the divorce, no reconciliation camp. But her reaching out to me the other day to say she was making a scrapbook online of the kids childhood and asking if I wanted her to print me one or the other day when she asked if I needed help getting my son to soccer practice, I don't know - those are interesting moments to. I found out she did get a job offer, and she has not shared that with me -happened a week ago. So most of the signals, but not quite all, point in the direction you laid out. And yes, my emotions are not helping me.
What's so interesting Scotty B? It's called cake eating.
LH - So in theory, the final nail in the coffin for marriage 1.0 is a good thing? And if I can heal and grow, I'll be able to choose the best and healthiest path for myself, my kids, and my life at that point? I'm just not healthy yet.
Yes it's a good thing! For the last four years she has cheated on you and told you that you are not good enough. How much longer do you want to endure that? Now if you are ever in a relationship with her it will be on your terms and she will need to show effort. You are still in the LBS fog and trust me by the time this all folds out your feelings will change drastically.
In my business I get to know people's personal situations and I have personal relationships with clients.
In the past 6 weeks I've had two clients whose wife's have cheated on them. In both cases these were rather successful men who were caught off guard. I just got off the phone after hearing another one of these stories. He doesn't have kids with her and he decided it was over. It was easy to give clear direct advice to him. Its a lot easier to see someone else's situation than your own. The feelings and emotions do create a fog - and for me the fog is thick.
Steve85 - I know you're right. I want to sit her down and just say "Are you sure?" And I want to hear "Yes" or "No". But you're right, her actions should speak loud enough for me. There is a part of me that thinks that if I don't ask, the answer is obvious, but if I ask, maybe there is a chance that she says she is questioning. I've read nothing that recommends doing that, everything I've read calls it pursuit and says it will push her farther away than she already is, and I've been replaying in my mind a conversation we had in April, when she told me I wasn't going to stop her this time. I guess this is just a process, and I'm making my messy way through it.
"maybe there is a chance"
This made me think of the classic Dumb and Dumber scene....."so you are saying there is a chance".
Scott, this is your reality. Ws do not have the discussion with the kids, move out, and then suddenly wake up in their place with fleas biting her and go "I made a mistake!" She is like a speeding train, it is going to take a lot of tracks before she comes to a stop and then starts going the other direction. This goes back to a post I made earlier in your thread, the illusion of action. "If I just ask her sure ONE more time."
And I get it! It is such a struggle for LBSs. I struggled with this. "If I say this...." "If I do this...." "If I can get her to see this...." I see you struggle with it in your posting. "The kids are sad, doesn't she see that?" "Her new place is infested with fleas, can't she understand it could be different?" "She seems so unhappy, doesn't she know she could be happier if she came back?" If it were that easy, imagine the difference in advice we could give on this forum. "Hey, newbie, just let your kids know to be really sad around your WAS!" "Hey LBS, get a test tube of fleas, and let them go in the WAS' new place!" "Whenever you are interacting with your WAS, just bring up really sad things to make them sad!"
Unfortunately, none of that works. Many LBSs have done the "are you sure" thing multiple times, only to get crushed by the answer they got every single time. You see, even if she isn't sure, you asking her that will emboldened her to say the opposite. When WASs come back, it has to be their idea. That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important. The opposite of not giving them time and space is to pressure and pursue. WASs cannot come to the conclusion that they made a mistake on their own when the LBSs keeps asking "are you sure?" It turns into the same dynamic that drives the adults nuts when every 5 minutes on a trip the kids ask "are we there yet?"
I do have to give you a lot of credit Scott. When you struggle with this you come here and voice it. We've seen so many LBSs that come back to us after the fact and say "Well, I asked him/her one last time, are you sure? And he/she told me that there was not even a snowball's chance in hell that they will ever come back." And then they get 2x4'd for breaking the rules. At least you are floating it here before acting! So good for you. But believe it or not, you best chance to ever get her back is to let her go.
^^^ Very well said Steve!^^^
LH - The actions you named do not speak of confusion. Does Christmas speak of confusion? She was confiding in me about her job search, talking about the challenges of the new home, took a nap at my house on Christmas day, stayed here with the kids until 4:30p when I needed to ask them to go because I had plans (they were supposed to leave after breakfast). Of course she could have been doing it for the kids, and of course she could have had a weak moment. I think everything is on a spectrum. The weight of evidence is strongly in the divorce, no reconciliation camp. But her reaching out to me the other day to say she was making a scrapbook online of the kids childhood and asking if I wanted her to print me one or the other day when she asked if I needed help getting my son to soccer practice, I don't know - those are interesting moments to. I found out she did get a job offer, and she has not shared that with me -happened a week ago. So most of the signals, but not quite all, point in the direction you laid out. And yes, my emotions are not helping me.
Scott, I 100% understand where you are coming from, my XW sent many of those exact same signals after BD. I kid you not, she also made new scrapbook pages and asked me if I wanted copies just like your W did! I hung a lot of hope on those things, and eventually it was all convincing enough for me to temperature check her. And when I did, it was BD all over again. 0% chance of recon, full steam ahead with finding a place, I need to move on, etc. etc. I touched the hot stove more than once but eventually I got burned enough to quit touching it. Learn from my mistakes! For now your W is done with the M and all of this "playing house" stuff is just classic cake-eating, nothing more. She wants to pursue her new life while also clinging to remnants of the old one. Just stick to your DB'ing and don't let these things confuse you.
Scotty, you've heard it a number of times that the only way to turn things around is time and patience, and most likely seen the number of 2-5 years thrown around. I'm not telling you this story to give false hope, but just to reinforce that message.
I was speaking to my Mum's cousin over xmas and his W left him many years ago when they were in their late 30s, the story sounds like quite similar to yours. She very quickly moved on, perhaps to multiple OMs before they had even D'd. He was devastated, had always lived his life for her and his kids. I don't know to what extent he worked on himself or GAL'd etc, but eventually he moved on and found someone new. It wasn't long after this, and 20 months after BD that his W came back asking for another chance. Her life wasn't as great as she'd imagined it would be and she realised she was happier with him.
He had moved on though and had no interest in her and how she had behaved. He has been happily married to the new lady for 23 years now.
It was easy to give clear direct advice to him. Its a lot easier to see someone else's situation than your own. The feelings and emotions do create a fog - and for me the fog is thick.
YUP. PuppyDogTails would advise looking at your own sitch as if it was in a "Fish bowl". Can you detach enough from your sitch to look at it like one of us would?
I am sure we all went through some level of depression going through our sitch. You may want to conciser seeking professional help.
We all need some type of interactions to deal with loneliness. Right after I moved into my own place, I would go out to dinners alone and interact with the staff. Covid does throw a wrench into thigns like that for you. I still do daily drive through at the coffee shops. I get some interaction with people. It all depends on your risk tolerance. It is your choice on how you view your alone time. These days I have a hard time getting my alone time. Changing ones view of this is key. Can you view your alone time as a positive? Something you look forward to?
One of the biggest challenges is learning to interact with your W different. Behaving different. Since you have children together, you will have many opportunities.
Use this time wisely and become the best version of YOU.
R2C - I am seeing professional help, that's who told me I was depressed. I'm not sure that I'm ready to view my alone time as a positive yet. The house just feels incredibly empty when no one is there.
OnlyBent - I know you're right logically. I've heard similar stories from a number of men. A close friend of mine's ex came back 30 days before he married his new wife. Another acquaintance's wife came back after a year separation to move back in, then divorced him 6 months later and the day she was moving out changed her mind again and they are doing great. Another acquaintance was living separated in his home for years and this year, something changed and they are as happy as they have ever been. And another acquaintance remarried only to have his ex come back begging and she will not stop and leave him and his new wife alone. It may or may not happen in time. I know she has to walk her journey, and grow personally before anything could possibly change. I know all of this logically and I struggle to accept it because of my emotions and pain. I also struggle because I KNOW logically that she is making a mistake and I believe the outcome is harm to our kids, a permanent divorce, and pain for the people I love and care about the most, including myself. And I may be "happier" as everyone tells me in the long run, but I know this pain will always and forever exist in my heart. I have no doubt about that. Maybe one day I will move on and I'll make peace with this, time will tell.
AS - That's incredible, the whole story. I know, they want to cake eat and feel as much comfort from the marriage until they find the next thing that allows them to let go and move on. The more I let her cake eat the less pain she feels now, the less pain she feels now the easier it will be for her to avoid reflecting, if she doesn't reflect she will have fewer regrets sooner, and that pushes out the time from which she needs to think about what she has done pushing out the time of a possible reconciliation.
Unfortunately, none of that works. Many LBSs have done the "are you sure" thing multiple times, only to get crushed by the answer they got every single time. You see, even if she isn't sure, you asking her that will emboldened her to say the opposite. When WASs come back, it has to be their idea. That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important. The opposite of not giving them time and space is to pressure and pursue. WASs cannot come to the conclusion that they made a mistake on their own when the LBSs keeps asking "are you sure?" It turns into the same dynamic that drives the adults nuts when every 5 minutes on a trip the kids ask "are we there yet?"
I do have to give you a lot of credit Scott. When you struggle with this you come here and voice it. We've seen so many LBSs that come back to us after the fact and say "Well, I asked him/her one last time, are you sure? And he/she told me that there was not even a snowball's chance in hell that they will ever come back." And then they get 2x4'd for breaking the rules. At least you are floating it here before acting! So good for you. But believe it or not, you best chance to ever get her back is to let her go.
1) I dropped off the kids stuff today. I had to make three trips to the car. As I was taking stuff to her porch she was taking stuff in and we saw each other and talked briefly. It took everything that I had in me not to temperature check - literally everything. I'll see her again tomorrow when we refinance our mortgage and then not until Friday the 15th at one of my son's sporting events.
2) Steve85 - Is this the best advice to reconcile and the only chance? "That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important."
2) Steve85 - Is this the best advice to reconcile and the only chance? "That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important."
I am not an expert, MWD is the expert. And she calls it the Last Resort Technique. If you read about the LRT you'll see that your sitch is tailor made for it.
2) Steve85 - Is this the best advice to reconcile and the only chance? "That is why the advice to give them time and space is so important."
Yes!
She has to miss you and want to be with you.
What is so scary about this and what other options do you think you have? Let's talk through it.
Steve85 - I've read the LRT. Just read it two weeks ago. I'll reread it again, can't hurt.
LH - Its a roller coaster. I could answer that question every day and the answer would be different. The option to temperature check is an option and as everyone pointed out, its a bad one, don't do it. I hope I can control my emotions enough to avoid doing it.
The scary part for me is that if space and no contact is the best way to go, it is very hard to keep space. We see each other at church once a week. We have mediation every other week. We don't see much of each other at pickup or drop-off, but that's probably another once a week. Probably once a week because the kids forget something. And with sporting events for the kids coming up add another once per week in January and February and then in the spring, we will probably see each other 3-4 times a week on top of all the other stuff.
So best case we probably see each other 2-4 times a week, and those mediation sessions are brutal because it is not a good experience.
Mediation is a killer for me. Fills me with a lot of anxiety and that is only going to get worse. We have two more sessions with just the mediator and then we have the following 2 sessions with both of our attorney's and the mediator. I am absolutely dreading that.
Emotional space, not physical space.
Scott, turn the mediation sessions into a chance to show how great you are doing. Stay upbeat and positive. It sounds like from your earlier update that you have a pretty good mediator. Go in and be the best version of yourself. If you go in defeated and anxious, she will sense that and use it to her advantage. Stay upbeat, fulfilled, give off an air of happy and fulfilled.
I would suggest sitting apart from her at the kid's sporting events. Doesn't have to be obvious. Get there early and get a seat. More than likely she'll choose to sit apart. Or get their just on time, and grab the first spot you can find. If you go in looking for her, stop doing that. Pretend like she isn't even there. You are there for you kids, not for her.
Scotty B
Everyone who goes through one of these situations and recovers their lives, either with or without their WAS, is a success story.
The blessing for all of us is that the pain and stress provide motivation for real change.
Its a rare opportunity in life to find motivation really evaluate who you are and who you want to be.
From my perspective, someone who saves their marriage but goes back to their old habits and resolves themselves to a life of unhappiness is not a success story.
Someone who ends up with a divorce but moves on to healthier and happier relationships has succeeded.
One trap we LBS's can fall into is that there is
(1) the person we wish our spouse to be, and
(2) the person our spouse really is.
It's great to love (2), it can be dangerous to ourselves to love (1), because that person is not real.
Your W may be miserable and have lots of adversity in her life, but it is not your job to save her, nor do you have the power to do so.
Just as you are working on healing yourself, your W needs to do the work.
Your job is to create an amazing life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of. At that point, W will be lucky if you let her come along for the journey.
If you want her (or anyone else) to feel safe in this regard, then you need to have a wonderful life on your own. If you have provided for your own emotional needs and are living a life that makes you happy, then you don't need to hang anything over her head, because you really don't need her for anything.
She's in your life because you want her to be, not because you need her to be. You're her partner, not her dependent.
The nice thing about that scenario is that she knows if she doesn't hold up her end of the bargain as your partner, that you don't need her and are able to leave her behind while maintaining your wonderful life.
What kind of behavior do you think that will motivate?
Your STBXW is walking down the street at night and stops between two houses. From one house comes the sound of crying, wailing, and breaking glass. The other house seems to have a party going on and she can hear music and laughter and sounds of friendship. Which house does she want to enter?
If your life is full of warmth, laughter and friendship she won't be able to stay away, and even if he does you won't miss her.
When you pursue someone, their response is to run. The more you pursue, the more they run. Think of it this way, pretend W wants 4 feet of space between the two of you. You move in a foot to three feet and it makes her uncomfortable, so she moves another foot away.
Do that for long enough and she will want 5 feet between you instead of 4, and then 6 instead of 5.
If, on the other hand, you go the other direction and give her 8 feet instead of the 4 feet she wants, then you make it "safe" for her to move 4 feet back toward you without feeling uncomfortable.
If you allow her to maintain her 4 feet and she gets comfortable, she may only need 3 feet, etc.
That's the point about pursuing and temp checking and why it makes everyone's situation worse.
Ginger1 - Emotional Space - that makes sense. I guess I feel dense in that I didn't understand that but thanks for pointing it out.
Steve85 - Sounds like a plan. I'll be as upbeat as possible in those sessions.
LH - I constantly think of a book written by Shel Silverstein, The Missing Piece and The Big O. It basically outlines exactly what you're talking about. I read it to my daughter sometimes before she goes to sleep. When I think about our relationship it had some bad dynamics; I know I wasn't living my best life because I lived in fear of upsetting her. I think the term is definitely co-dependent or dependent. I still can't make sense of it.
I do need to find myself and learn to be alone and learn to feel fulfilled on my own. That will be a journey. And the midst of it I am broken hearted.
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I feel like my subconscious has turned against me. Everyone night when I sleep I have dreams about her. Last night I had two or three. When I woke up after the second one I wrote the first two down so I could remember them. It feels like if I distract myself enough during the day to get away from it, I still have to deal with it in my sleep. It really [censored].
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Tonight a buddy of mine invited me to his men's group. And then the Friday through Sunday I'm going on a retreat; Monday I get the kids back and I will have successfully weathered this five day storm without them.
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I do feel blessed to have kept the house. It may have some memories in it, but it also just feels like home. The house she bought, which was more expensive, is about half the size but in a better location. I can't imagine how much worse I would feel if I didn't have my home.
I feel like my subconscious has turned against me. Everyone night when I sleep I have dreams about her. Last night I had two or three. When I woke up after the second one I wrote the first two down so I could remember them. It feels like if I distract myself enough during the day to get away from it, I still have to deal with it in my sleep. It really [censored].
Scotty B you have to feel the pain and lean into it not distract yourself from it. Just like the saying "you have to feel it to heal it"
I do feel blessed to have kept the house. It may have some memories in it, but it also just feels like home. The house she bought, which was more expensive, is about half the size but in a better location. I can't imagine how much worse I would feel if I didn't have my home.
Lol. No job but buys a more expensive house. She's something else. Yes I kept the family home and it was the best move I made. The kids feel more at home with me.
I am really kind of shocked that from all you went through you are not feeling some relief about her being gone. You will at some point. It takes time.
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Tonight a buddy of mine invited me to his men's group. And then the Friday through Sunday I'm going on a retreat; Monday I get the kids back and I will have successfully weathered this five day storm without them.
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THIS. IS. AWESOME!!
Exactly what GAL is about, the right way! Well done.
Steve85 - I got another thing getting ready to happen that I am freaking really fired up about. I just ran into him in the hall; My friend rides back country / off road motorcycles and we are working to plan a trip to a private BMW riding school so I can learn to ride, he's going to go with me. Then I'm planning to join a group of him and his friends on a trip across Alaska in August.
If I can go through this BMW motorcycle school I think there is a high likelihood I buy one afterwards (used). I'm told they are like $10-15k for what I would need. That gets me pretty fired up. I just need to get it scheduled.
And LH - I know you work out a lot. I did 6 one arm pullups yesterday. I was pretty fired up about that; four on the right and 2 on the left. I hadn't done one since I was 40, which was the first time I had ever done that. That got me pretty fired up at my gym. So I have some fun stuff going on.
But family has always been my number 1 value. Nothing is more important to me than family, and in my mind family starts with the most important relationship, which is the marriage. This has been such a harsh shock to my life and value system, that even if I'm not as repressed, I'm not finding a lot of relief.
I was thinking about how much closer my son and I have gotten without her around because all the time I used to devote to her basically is going to the kids when they are around. My daughter goes to bed about an hour before my son, so him and I are getting a lot of one on one time together which we never got before.
And LH - I know you work out a lot. I did 6 one arm pullups yesterday. I was pretty fired up about that; four on the right and 2 on the left. I hadn't done one since I was 40, which was the first time I had ever done that. That got me pretty fired up at my gym. So I have some fun stuff going on.
Very impressive Scotty B!
But family has always been my number 1 value. Nothing is more important to me than family, and in my mind family starts with the most important relationship, which is the marriage. This has been such a harsh shock to my life and value system, that even if I'm not as repressed, I'm not finding a lot of relief.
I am not sure if you are familiar with Tony Robbins work but he talks about why people get depressed. It because their story doesn't match their blueprint. Your blue print is to be happy you need a few full family including a wife. That is why you tolerated her unacceptable behavior for so long. Also your fear of your family breaking up caused you to do things to actually make that happen. (I am not saying it was your fault or you did it intentionally). So now your story doesn't match your blueprint so you are depressed. You can't change your story because your W is not an active participant in your story so that actually makes it a dream or a fairytale. So since you can't change your story you need to change your blue which includes a family of 3 for now.
I was thinking about how much closer my son and I have gotten without her around because all the time I used to devote to her basically is going to the kids when they are around. My daughter goes to bed about an hour before my son, so him and I are getting a lot of one on one time together which we never got before.
Yep this is one of the many great things about D. Your mood sets the tone for the house. If you are happy and fun they will be happy and fun. You will become closer then you have ever been.
Scott, love the riding idea! And happy that you're fired up about it.
As far as the kids, do they have any pets? I've always felt that the LBS should consider getting the kids a pet post D. Kind of takes the focus off of the split.
I do feel blessed to have kept the house. It may have some memories in it, but it also just feels like home. The house she bought, which was more expensive, is about half the size but in a better location. I can't imagine how much worse I would feel if I didn't have my home.
The house was a big deal to me. I am so glad that that was one point that I was not willing to negotiate on. I may have done the whole begging and pleading thing, but me leaving the house was NEVER an option I offered to her. I didn't leave the house nor the master bedroom nor the bed. I told her I didn't care whether she slept next to me or in another bedroom or on the couch or outside, I wasn't leaving. I told her that if SHE was going to leave then I wouldn't stop her. Told her I would rather she stay and work on the M, but if leaving was what she wanted then I would support her decision. She later came back and said "why do I have to be the one to leave?" I told her because she was the one breaking up the marriage, not me. That was the last time she said anything about it. She was gone about a month later.
I'm an architect and have done a lot of work on the house, so it's more than just 4 walls to me. Plus it's full of family memories and despite the D I do still love those memories. It's my place of refuge, it's where my kids grew up, it's a very meaningful place. I've been there 23 years now. It was paid off before BD, unfortunately I had to take out a new loan on it to pay my XW for her half of it but I have zero regrets. Actually the value of it has gone up another 100k since the D so I made out pretty well as it turns out.
LH - I've done a lot of vision type work for my life in the past and you're right, being a great husband and a great father and what my plans looked like to execute that were at the top. I need to re-dream a future and change what it looks like.
Steve85 - I've thought a lot about getting a pet but I don't want to have to take care of something else right now. I like the freedom of not having to worry about a pet. My daughter does have fish, but I don't think that's what you're talking about.
AS - I said the same thing. Thanks for sharing.
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Last night I went to a men's group that was really good. Solid guys. Its a low key bible study, which I also think is healthy. It kept me out until 9:30pm, made for good company and filled an evening. They meet every other week so that will be a great help on my quest to fill time.
Tonight I leave for a 3 day spiritual retreat. I'm feeling a little guilty because I'm going to miss my son's first ever lacrosse game. Its a very casual league, but its the kind of thing that I never would have missed in the past. And then I feel a little guilty that I won't see them at church on Sunday like I normally would, but I think its healthier for me to fill the whole weekend with healthy activities as opposed to not doing it for two total hours I would get to kind of see the kids.
I get them back on Monday and we head to ski club so that will be really fun and at that point I will have successfully killed the second 5 day stretch without them.
I'm going to feel guilty again in two weeks when the same thing happens as I'm heading to Florida for five days to hang with parents.
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Yesterday I briefly ran into her at our refinancing of the primary home. She shared that her grandmother who is 90 has Covid, I said I would pray for her. She also let me know that she has a job offer but she's not thrilled with the role. I asked her how she felt about the offer and she implied she was frustrated. It was hard to talk because it was a curbside closing and we were both in our cars. I could have asked about her feelings with her grandmother but forget to validate and go there on that one. She didn't ask anything about me, so I didn't share.
Tonight she did email to ask if I was going to be at my sons lacrosse game and I simply said no. I'm not sure whether or not the kids told her where I'm going, they both know.
After that interaction I went back to my office to finalize my P&L for the year, which the attorney's need to value my business. I also wrote out a narrative of how my business works, the different cash flows, and worked to establish a valuation for my business that they can review. I had been dreading working on that and I was proud of myself that I was able to focus, get it done, and that it didn't send me down an emotional spiral.
I was also glad I was able to work on it after seeing her and that she didn't send me down an emotional spiral either.
Scott, completely understand. I have 3 furry family members and they do require quite a bit of care. I have just been thinking about what LBSs could do to help their kids with the transition. Kids love animals. But certainly a fish counts!
Yesterday I briefly ran into her at our refinancing of the primary home. She shared that her grandmother who is 90 has Covid, I said I would pray for her. She also let me know that she has a job offer but she's not thrilled with the role. I asked her how she felt about the offer and she implied she was frustrated. It was hard to talk because it was a curbside closing and we were both in our cars. I could have asked about her feelings with her grandmother but forget to validate and go there on that one. She didn't ask anything about me, so I didn't share.
Good job on not letting the interactions and the valuation get you emotional! That is progress on detachment! Dealing with her in a business like manner is what detachment is all about. So good job.
Slight adjustment on the quote above. "I could have asked about her feelings with her grandmother" Listening and validating is NOT about asking her about her feelings. That from her perspective is pressure. However IF she starts to share feelings about it of her own volition, then you have the opportunity to validate her feelings. Do not try to create opportunities.
Steve85 - Interesting perspective. For my retreat I brought my book, The Art of Listenning and I'll read up on that. That has been my guide as I've tried to improve my listening and validation skills. I can see where that could be seen as pressure.
Email I got:
To be on the same page regarding the kids, we agreed and told the kids that we both could be at the kids sports/activities. I just want to make sure that is still clear. I hope you aren’t not coming to Son's first Lacrosse game because it is “my” day.
Do I reply to that? She doesn't know I'm going on my retreat.
No I have a previous engagement.
Good stuff! Part of leaving is she has less influence over what events you attend.
I hope your retreat is enlightening and rejuvenating!
I hope so too CW.
And it may seem silly, but her emailing me and then emailing her back really spiked my anxiety. It came right after I got off a call with a client who is getting divorced (a woman). It seems like everyone in my world is getting divorced right now. This woman, she was the WAW. Her husband is a loser, so I can't blame her. But her reasons for leaving were similar to my wife's and it was a little like PTSD.
And then I get that email from my wife. And then I start feeling guilty because I'm going to miss my son's game. Anyhow, I hope I have a good weekend, but the last 2 hours were unsettling. I know its a process.
Scott,
Don't feel guilty. You said this:
I think its healthier for me to fill the whole weekend with healthy activities as opposed to not doing it for two total hours I would get to kind of see the kids.
And I thought, right on, Scott! You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Your kids need you to be mentally healthy and happy far more than they need to kind of see you for a couple of hours. This is one of those "put the oxygen mask on yourself first" situations. Don't feel guilty. He'll have plenty of games.
Re-read that sentence you wrote over and over if you need to. This is the right call and your path to healing and growth. Have an amazing weekend (and let us know what it is like!!)
May
Leave it blank, do nothing. I find it odd that grown adults would want to announce anything on facebook really. My H just changed his fb status to in a relationship....i should add and married too. Last time i updated my fb was erm 2013 maybe.
So I got to my spiritual retreat and found out that it was silent. Which meant that I was going to learn stuff but in between there was no talking and no noise. I turned off my cell phone all weekend as well.
In the downtime, I prayed and I cried. Not sobbing, but just tears rolling down my cheeks. I teared up at Mass, during spiritual counseling, on walks, and in prayer. I've never cried so much. By end of day Saturday I was exhausted from the release of all the emotions. In my spiritual counseling sessions both priests echoed a lot of the sentiments here. From the conversations I surmised that this divorce has very little to do with me at this point - I don't have a narcistic personality disorder, I'm not controlling or manipulative, etc. I'm a good man. I may suffer from nice guy syndrome, but I'm a good man.
The men at the retreat kept an all night vigil during adoration, which you could think of as an all night prayer continued from one man to the next if you don't know what it is, I drew 2:30am -3am.
That was the highlight. As I sat in prayer I started writing. And then I had a conversation in my prayer, it felt very spiritual. I was told that I needed to let go and it was okay. That I was okay as I am. That I needed to stop worrying. And that I could give away my pain, I didn't need to carry it around any longer. I was there until about 3:45am. The time went very fast. In that is just a summation of my notes.
Today I took a walk, and as I walked I began to think through all the ways my wife would control and manipulate me, which is funny because I never thought of it in those terms before. She was always keeping tabs on me. I basically had to ask permission to do anything and if I was gone longer than I said it was a major issue, even if it didn't impact anyone else. It was so bad that I was afraid to ask to go anywhere or to do anything.
When I got home from the retreat I had another odd experience. During my "conversation" in prayer, when I felt that I had been told that I was okay as I was, it reminded me of a song by Wyclef called Take Me As I Am. Its one of my favorites. At home, I was doubting my experience in prayer and I was telling myself that it didn't happen. At that moment I turned on my Pandora and that song, Take Me As I Am came on. I stopped cold, got chills, and then fell to my knees, very emotional.
It was a very spiritual weekend.
I'm glad I wrote down the prayer conversation I had as it happened and I'll use it as a guide for myself. I'm hopeful that this can be a turning point for me as I continue to work to move forward.
I also want to thank everyone here for your continued support. Without you I know I would not be doing as well as I am. Thank you.
I was told that I needed to let go and it was okay. That I was okay as I am. That I needed to stop worrying. And that I could give away my pain, I didn't need to carry it around any longer.
I think the fear of letting go of the MR is one of the hardest things we have to do. I was told "your MR is dead" so many times. Once I accepted that my M was dead - the fear was gone and I could start living. It was a big shift in my healing. I pray the same for you.
as I walked I began to think through all the ways my wife would control and manipulate me, which is funny because I never thought of it in those terms before. She was always keeping tabs on me. I basically had to ask permission to do anything and if I was gone longer than I said it was a major issue, even if it didn't impact anyone else. It was so bad that I was afraid to ask to go anywhere or to do anything.
Sometimes we gloss over it to the point we forget the realty of our MR's. I didn't dwell on the bad parts of my M, but I had to get to a point where I was honest with myself about the parts that were unacceptable to me.
Letting go of the fantasy helps. Gives us a realistic picture going forward. Sounds like you are doing a lot of introspection.
Also - fantastic on the bike trip! Sounds fun!!
Today I took a walk, and as I walked I began to think through all the ways my wife would control and manipulate me, which is funny because I never thought of it in those terms before. She was always keeping tabs on me. I basically had to ask permission to do anything and if I was gone longer than I said it was a major issue, even if it didn't impact anyone else. It was so bad that I was afraid to ask to go anywhere or to do anything.
So this is where your transformation begins. Most of us have been there. We believed we were behaving the right way.
Time to behave different. Time to interact different.
This is a perfect example of good interaction from you:
"No I have a previous engagement. "
You are always busy. During this phase of the process, you do not share details. If she tries to get info, you deflect.
Your life should not revolve around someone else's. Make it the other way around. Attract others into your Frame.
Wrapping your head around your parenting responsibilities during this process is also important.
duckduckgo "Parenting with Love and Logic".
I was alternating between parenting books and self improvement books.
You are moving in the right direction.
R2C - I agree that recalling all the negatives and remembering the relationship through the appropriate lens is where this transformation will happen.
I had the kids the last two days and the time flew by. I can't believe I don't have them for the next two days already, just crazy. We had a lot of fun but it went fast.
And with my STBXW, I can manage it as long as I don't see her. I saw her today and I don't know what you want to call it, emotional connection or chemistry or whatever, but when I see her I just feel love for her. I hate it.
I played it cool today. I didn't temperature check. I imagine she is being nicer because she is feeling that I'm moving on and I shouldn't read into it at all.
Example: My son has a gluten allergy and I was looking for flour for him but couldn't find any. She bought some for me and gave it to me today. That is also the first time that I've pulled up to her house and she walked out and was nice.
I think if LH and Steve were watching me day to day they would tell me to keep doing my own think, to continue to work to detach, and to stop texting her. Over the past couple of days she has texted me related to the kids or different things and I've replied with an answer and then with a video or picture of the kids snowboarding as we've gone and they have really improved.
Tomorrow we have another mediation session. I'm not looking forward to that at all.
Scott, keep working on you! You've got this!
Just a minor word of caution. It sounds like she is moving to the next phase of WAS where she now wants to be BFFs with you. Being friend-zoned by someone that you have romantic feelings for is one of the worst feelings you can experience. They have one goal, to keep you in place in their life as a friend. So they will even dangle carrots of romance in front of you to keep you "interested", all while having the goal of remaining in a platonic relationship. If you want to be friends with her, then have at it. But I fear that you will see friendship as a stepping stone to the next level, and am afraid you would be setback when that never comes to fruition. So just decide what you want, and realize that you cannot nice her back into another R with you.
Stay strong!
I played it cool today. I didn't temperature check. I imagine she is being nicer because she is feeling that I'm moving on and I shouldn't read into it at all.
What does a typical temperature check look like to you?
Example: My son has a gluten allergy and I was looking for flour for him but couldn't find any. She bought some for me and gave it to me today. That is also the first time that I've pulled up to her house and she walked out and was nice.
She is doing this more for your son and I get the sense she doesn't exactly respect your parenting abilities.
I think if LH and Steve were watching me day to day they would tell me to keep doing my own think, to continue to work to detach, and to stop texting her. Over the past couple of days she has texted me related to the kids or different things and I've replied with an answer and then with a video or picture of the kids snowboarding as we've gone and they have really improved.
Steve said it all right here. If you want to be friends with her, then have at it. But I fear that you will see friendship as a stepping stone to the next level, and am afraid you would be setback when that never comes to fruition. So just decide what you want, and realize that you cannot nice her back into another R with you. You are going to get kicked it the nuts when OM shows up.
Tomorrow we have another mediation session. I'm not looking forward to that at all.
Good luck!
Hi Scott,
Sending videos of the kids puts you in FZ. Do you want to be her friend or her lover? If you become her lover again, then sending her videos of the kids is fine.
She is the one that wanted a 50/50 parenting plan. Not you. But part of your job is to give her natural consequences of her choices. Missing 50% of the kids experiences.
I believe you are using the wrong measuring stick.
she walked out and was nice.
You are using HER behavior.
The measuring stick should be YOUR behavior. IE "Did I respond/interact with her the way I WANTED/NEEDED to?"
Did I stand up to her? Did I not get manipulated? Did I act like LH19 would? Did I validate like Coach would? Did I call her out on her BS in an effective way?
R2C - Yes, you are right. Giving her the consequence of the 50/50 parenting plan makes sense. I am obviously trying to nice her back as you pointed out because it feels good.
I haven't felt manipulated recently. I haven't dealt with any new BS, but that will probably come tomorrow. I think I'm doing pretty good work overall but I am holding on and struggling to let go. I continue to tell myself to let go, but its not easy.
I'll see her Friday at my son's lacrosse, I'll get there first and I'll sit with a friend of mine that she doesn't like. She'll keep her distance. My friend and I will have fun at the game. It will be interesting to see what my daughter does, I imagine she'll feel like she's in the middle if we aren't sitting next to each other.
And LH is right, while I'm all BFFing I will be destroyed if that's what I do and she shows up with an OM.
Scott, this is what we are trying to help you prepare for. Your kids feeling in the middle. Her introducing an OM. Those are things that will set you back unless you brace yourself for their inevitability.
More than likely, your kids will come back to your house after being with W, and suddenly will mention X where is X is a man's name. We've seen this dozens and dozens of times with LBSs. Some get upset because they had verbal agreements in place not to introduce other people to the kids until they discussed it. But WASs rarely ever live up to those types of agreements. And you have no control over that.
Also, most LBSs use that as an excuse to be upset about OP, even though what they are really upset about is that there is an OP to begin with!
LH and I have been trying to get you to understand that this eventuality is coming. It is highly unlikely that she left the MR in order to spend the rest of her life alone. Though I do know one woman that did that and hasn't even dated since she left her husband and has concentrated on being the best mom she could be. Most WASs especially in your age range have the idea of a future OP in mind (if not one already in the picture)?
I'll see her Friday at my son's lacrosse, I'll get there first and I'll sit with a friend of mine that she doesn't like. She'll keep her distance. My friend and I will have fun at the game. It will be interesting to see what my daughter does, I imagine she'll feel like she's in the middle if we aren't sitting next to each other.
Hi Scott,
Kids' events never seemed tough for my children. We set the expectation that when they needed to see a parent or to sit on the bleachers, they went to the parent with custody. The other parent was a guest/visitor. It's like a day with grandparents. When you're there, you're in charge of your kids, when you're not, your grandparents are. I taught most of my kids' rec soccer and basketball seasons. I'm greedy.
Every child is different! And, I guess mine never dealt with a transition or change on this, since we were ex's from their very first seasons of sports. I hope Friday goes smoothly.
Steve85 - I hear you. I don't know how you actually "prepare" for it. I mean when it happens, I can imagine the rush of emotions - sadness and rage. All I can do is continue with the things I am doing to the best of my ability and really work not to get sucked into her world - that is really freaking hard, because of Fear. I fear that if I don't help her, if I'm not her friend, it will push her further away and into the arms of someone else. I think there is an inevitability of it happening anyways, but of course I don't want to push her that way.
CW - Thats a good thought, that they sit with whoever has custody. If that doesn't happen then I could bring that up after the fact to my STBXW because it is going to cut both ways. And of course my wife is welcome to sit with us, I just don't think she will because she doesn't like my friend.
This was a friend that I've had longer than her, that she had forced me to cut out of my life because she believed his wife was spying on her when she was having her affair and then spreading rumors about her (which didn't happen - but if it had happened, the rumors would have been true).
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Anyhow, I just learned that my wife accepted a new job and starts on 1/25. That is going to bring a world of hurt for her and be a massive change in her life. Tomorrow during mediation I'm sure to find out how much her income is, I hope she crushed it!!
Based on the previous messages, I assume I let her struggle with the work life balance and hit rock bottom as I continue to do my thing?
Based on the previous messages, I assume I let her struggle with the work life balance and hit rock bottom as I continue to do my thing?
Yes, let her sink or swim while you take care of you and yours.
I fear that if I don't help her, if I'm not her friend, it will push her further away and into the arms of someone else.
On the flip side, she doesn't have to experience a complete loss if Scott remains her BFF and a backup option even as she explores OM and other changes. If my partner and I had remained adventure buddies after breaking up, it's more certain we'd be in each other's lives long-term, but less certain we'd have reconciled. What you'd do if an OM shows up is a key question. I wager if you'd stop being BFFs then you should stop now, but if you'd continue as BFFs thinking it's better to have her in your life in some form than not, it makes sense to continue. Tough choices. Takes your time to figure out what's right for you.
Steve85 - I hear you. I don't know how you actually "prepare" for it. I mean when it happens, I can imagine the rush of emotions - sadness and rage. All I can do is continue with the things I am doing to the best of my ability and really work not to get sucked into her world - that is really freaking hard, because of Fear. I fear that if I don't help her, if I'm not her friend, it will push her further away and into the arms of someone else. I think there is an inevitability of it happening anyways, but of course I don't want to push her that way.
Scott, lots of LBSs struggle with that. The problem is that this is coming from the faulty assumption that you can PULL them closer to you. You cannot. Helping her and being her friend will not draw her closer to you. It will allow her to feel secure where she is at. Once she is secure that you are securely in the friendzone, that is when the threat of an OM becomes strongest. "He is okay with it, has accepted it, it is safe to introduce to the kids!" However, if you start living your best life, if you keep her at arms length so she isn't sure who you are with or what you are doing, but only that you seem extremely happy and fulfilled, she might start wondering "What's up with Scott? Has he met someone?" Sometimes that triggers the competitive nature in WAS and they suddenly are on the chase! Admittedly we tend to see this phenomenon in WAHs more than WAWs, but there have been a few WAWs that have started to come sniffing back around when the LBH suddenly seemed to be flourishing in his new life without her.
So I maintain, that being her friend, being willing to help her is actually the fastest way to push her into the arms of an OM. And the worst thing about the friend-zone? You will be one of the first people to hear how wonderful OM is and how great of a time they are having, right from her own mouth. After all, that is the kind of things friends share.
I think there is an inevitability of it happening anyways, but of course I don't want to push her that way.
Well if you are waiting it out which I think you will at least try then it would help you to push her into another relationship. She is going to have to at least have one relationship before she thinks about coming back. After all this is what you get a D for is to date other people.
This was a friend that I've had longer than her, that she had forced me to cut out of my life because she believed his wife was spying on her when she was having her affair and then spreading rumors about her (which didn't happen - but if it had happened, the rumors would have been true).
So she chooses your friends for you. Does she set up playdates too lol? See where I am going with this Scotty B?
Anyhow, I just learned that my wife accepted a new job and starts on 1/25. That is going to bring a world of hurt for her and be a massive change in her life.
Ahhh these expectations usually leave people disappointed.
Based on the previous messages, I assume I let her struggle with the work life balance and hit rock bottom as I continue to do my thing?
Boy you sure don't seem like you have any faith in her. You know how many single moms work and get everything done?
Why do you think her life is going to be so awful and she is going to hit rock bottom because she is going to work? Why do you think she is going to fail so hard and be miserable at the work life balance?
This is going to sound harsh, but it seems like you really liked her being dependent on you. You wanted her need you for everything and to be her hero. Were you hoping that would keep her from leaving ? It seems like your hope is she will hate being not being dependent on you and want to come back. Your identity is totally wrapped up in being the caretaker for your wife. Not a husband and a partner. And it seems like you would love to go back to this. And it also seems like you hope she hits rock bottom in her new responsibilities so she will come back.
That’s not healthy, dude
Steve85 - You made some really good points. Its tough, but I think what you said makes sense. I can't pull her closer, I can't pursue her either. She needs to close the gap.
LH - Man, that is a harsh truth - that the divorce is so that we can date other people and she will need to do that so that she can make a decision. I appreciate you saying that, I'm going to have to sit with that and internalize that truth.
And yes LH, I gave her my man card; at the time I felt it was the only way to save the marriage. I'm not really sure that anything would have worked once she had the affair. She was gone before that and never really came back after that.
And I don't have much faith in her ability to handle it all on her own. She couldn't handle working and the kids when we were together and I was doing a lot of the work. She had to quit her job because she couldn't hold it all together. AND I was still doing half the work around the house for the last year!
And Ginger1 - She makes bad decisions on repeat, that is why I think she will hit rock bottom. She has never in her life been able to balance work and life. It was always a significant struggle for our relationship, I just can't see how she will do it now, especially because the place she went to work has a clock in / clock out mentality. She has had full reign to do whatever she wanted for the past 9 years - complete freedom of choice. She has not been dealing in reality for a while.
Now, you imply a good question, did I like her being dependent on me?
No. I liked giving her the freedom to choose what she wanted out of life, but I was repeatedly disappointed with her lack of effort, lack of contribution, lack of balance when she worked, and laziness. And on top of that, she would then turn around and tell me that I needed to do more continually. As an example, in November, when she was supposed to be looking for a job she went to the pool for a couple of hours because it was open and we had a nice day. It blew my frigging mind.
And I do think you are right, we had (have) a weird relationship where in a way I have felt more like her father but at the same time she treats me like she's my mother. Its really screwed up. We were partners in a failing relationship where neither of us felt safe enough to speak our minds and grow.
And to your last point - You're right. I do want her to hit rock bottom, I do want to be able to say I told you so, I do want to know in my soul that I was right. That IS NOT healthy. That is not loving. And that place is the source of a deep anger - which is probably born out of some deep fear; the fear being that maybe I am not good enough and she moved on and will have a better life. (ugh, that stung).
---------------------------
In IC, I shared a dream I had with my counselor, because he asked that I pay attention. I told him that I felt like when I slept I was under attack by my unconscious because I would dream of her. He made the point that maybe it wasn't really about her, but about what she represented to me; the desire to be with a loving, soft, compassionate, happy, silly, sexy partner who cared deeply for me. My wife is a symbol of these things, though it is not who she is. That really resonated with me and I think that is the truth.
Which then gets me back to the way that when I am around her my body literally reacts to her presence and wants to be with her. You can read everything I wrote and easily see that Scott is going to be better off once he gets through this. But this core desire to be with her, that is from the body and of emotion pulls me towards her. Its so screwed up.
LH - Man, that is a harsh truth - that the divorce is so that we can date other people and she will need to do that so that she can make a decision. I appreciate you saying that, I'm going to have to sit with that and internalize that truth.
So she can make what decision? Scotty B "the tribe has spoken"
And yes LH, I gave her my man card; at the time I felt it was the only way to save the marriage. I'm not really sure that anything would have worked once she had the affair. She was gone before that and never really came back after that.
I agree but giving away your man card pushed her further away. Never again for anybody.
And I don't have much faith in her ability to handle it all on her own. She couldn't handle working and the kids when we were together and I was doing a lot of the work. She had to quit her job because she couldn't hold it all together. AND I was still doing half the work around the house for the last year!
So she's the prize?
Now, you imply a good question, did I like her being dependent on me?
No. I liked giving her the freedom to choose what she wanted out of life, but I was repeatedly disappointed with her lack of effort, lack of contribution, lack of balance when she worked, and laziness.
So she's the prize?
And on top of that, she would then turn around and tell me that I needed to do more continually. As an example, in November, when she was supposed to be looking for a job she went to the pool for a couple of hours because it was open and we had a nice day. It blew my frigging mind.
hmmmm. That blew your mind? Doesn't sound mind blowing to me. It was a nice day and she went to the pool.
And I do think you are right, we had (have) a weird relationship where in a way I have felt more like her father but at the same time she treats me like she's my mother. Its really screwed up. We were partners in a failing relationship where neither of us felt safe enough to speak our minds and grow.
So what would change if she came back?
And to your last point - You're right. I do want her to hit rock bottom, I do want to be able to say I told you so, I do want to know in my soul that I was right. That IS NOT healthy. That is not loving. And that place is the source of a deep anger - which is probably born out of some deep fear; the fear being that maybe I am not good enough and she moved on and will have a better life. (ugh, that stung).
What if you had an even better life? Sounds like you been pretty miserable for the last 4 years.
He made the point that maybe it wasn't really about her, but about what she represented to me; the desire to be with a loving, soft, compassionate, happy, silly, sexy partner who cared deeply for me. My wife is a symbol of these things, though it is not who she is. That really resonated with me and I think that is the truth.
Number one thing I see on this board is that the LBS is in love with a fantasy that doesn't exist.
Which then gets me back to the way that when I am around her my body literally reacts to her presence and wants to be with her. You can read everything I wrote and easily see that Scott is going to be better off once he gets through this. But this core desire to be with her, that is from the body and of emotion pulls me towards her. Its so screwed up.
"Rejection breeds obsession". Google it.
Team - I need your help!
How do I respond to this text;
“Daughter really doesn’t want to go to lacrosse tmrw. How would you feel if I didn’t go and she could stay with me?”
“Daughter really doesn’t want to go to lacrosse tmrw. How would you feel if I didn’t go and she could stay with me?”
Hi Scott,
Does that fall during your custody period or your wife's? If it's hers, "Your custody day. Do what you think's best." If it's your day, "My custody day, so she comes here. She and I will figure it out." Maybe there are some special considerations here? This would be my default if my ex-wife messaged me.
Well.... how do you feel about it?
Ginger - First of all, I’m annoyed. She probably told my daughter she would talk to me about it, which makes me the bad guy.
It is my custody day.
Unfortunately because of my wife’s decision the kids lives have to change. I don’t want to set a precedent where my daughter thinks she is going to be able to have mom watch her and then I don’t get to see her. It kind of [censored], my son will probably have 30 baseball games this spring and 10 soccer games.
Also, when I am busy during my time (which I will be) I don’t want my wife trying to pull this in reverse with me.
My concern is I don’t want to punish the kids because they didn’t have anything to do with this, so I’m a bit perplexed.
She probably told my daughter she would talk to me about it, which makes me the bad guy.
It's up to you how much you want to coordinate with your ex. I prefer a simple custody schedule. My kids stay with me on my days. My kids talk to me if they're uncomfortable about something at my home. I do my best. Yes, sometimes S or D was dragged to their sibling's events and had to watch, read, or play games. That's life as a single parent. I didn't think it was a big deal that they had to find a way to entertain themselves. Now, fortunately, they're mature enough to stay home for an hour or two alone.
There's also nothing wrong with being BFFs with your ex-wife. My brother is divorced and he and his wife regularly hang out with his ex-wife and her new husband. They even entered a business together. It took a few years of separation, but it's a cozy arrangement now, with truly no tension between them.
I have been sharing custody for 13 years since my daughter was 6 months old. I had a lot of the same feelings you did in the beginning.
I realized though that I didn’t want to punish my daughter for adult things either. You don’t know what she told your daughter. The best thing is to speak to your daughter about it. Truth me told, she probably doesn’t want to go to the lacrosse game. Most kids don’t always go and watch their siblings game. Find out where it really game from with your daughter. Doesn’t she really not want to go? As far as where the kid sits when she does attend the game. That she can chose. And she may not chose you, the only thing that’s going to hurt is your ego . And honestly, another day she might chose you!
My ex and I have custody of course. I have the greater amount of time. So I’m pretty flexible. If one ore t has a family thing or a birthday party, if the other parent has no plans , we let go to the fun stuff and the family stuff. Sometimes we exchange days.
It comes down the kids in the end. They shouldn’t be punished for adult decisions no matter who’s “fault “ it was. Which doesn’t mean letting them to go to whichever house they want when they want. It means considering the individual situations. But with the child first and foremost. Like if your daughter should be with her for only the duration. Of the game, not the whole day. You pick her up after, take kids for ice cream!
I am also an only child, but I did hear it is good for kids to have one on one time with each parent. So isn’t it best while you are are focusing on your sons game, for mom and daughter to have their girls time then? Or are your kids never to have one on one time or girls time or guys time because of a custody agreement?
Honestly, put your kids first, and you will likely never make the wrong decisions
Team - I need your help!
How do I respond to this text;
“Daughter really doesn’t want to go to lacrosse tmrw. How would you feel if I didn’t go and she could stay with me?”
You're gagging at gnats here. Go to your son's lacrosse game, then go pick up your daughter. I'm not getting who is being punished, etc. A lacrosse game lasts, what, 2 hours? I'm not seeing this as a huge deal.
Scott I know you struggle with the life change, for both you and your kids, that her choice has caused. But as you can see, many here have been through and both they and their kids are fine. Take a deep breath, this isn't that big a deal.
I love that "gagging at gnats" - perfect.
I have a couple of things that help (and have helped) me
"If it's not going to matter in 5 years - don't spend more than 5 minutes on it."
"Will this matter to you 10 minutes, 10 months, or 10 years from now?"
It's difficult in the middle of this not to be affected emotionally, but Steve85 has a good point.
Ultimately, it's YOUR day. You 'can' set a boundary and have D go/not go. But it's that old saying "choose your battles".
You can expend a lot of energy on things that aren't going to matter long term.
Choose the hill you want to die on and all that jazz. This will get better - and you knowing your boundaries and asking others who have gone before you for advice is wise.
My kids are grown, only had to share them when we separated back in 2011 - and at the time, I felt like I was constantly in battle because I was dealing with someone without any boundaries and entitled behavior. It was frustrating at the time, but the main focus can be what's best for the kids long term.
Good luck!
There's also nothing wrong with being BFFs with your ex-wife. My brother is divorced and he and his wife regularly hang out with his ex-wife and her new husband. They even entered a business together. It took a few years of separation, but it's a cozy arrangement now, with truly no tension between them.
Yeah this is absolutely true, it doesn't work for everyone but it IS possible. My XW and I struggled for some time over how to behave around each other after BD and especially separation. At first I think we both needed time and space (I didn't think I did of course, but in retrospect I did). After a while once the pressure on both of us was well and truly out of the way, we settled into a friendly relationship. I would say it took a good 2 years. We do birthdays, holidays and such together. This year we all (XW, me, our kids, XW's mom) had Thanksgiving at her house. We did dinner and games at her house on Christmas eve, then on Christmas day they all came over to my house and we opened presents. Some might argue that it's cake-eating, but 10 years post BD my response to that would be "who cares". It's not like I'm trying to recon with her, and I do enjoy the time spent as a family as I'm sure she does.
Scotty, regarding your W hitting rock bottom, that's really more of a wayward/ GGW thing rather than a WAS. I thought for sure once my XW moved out and had to do everything herself that she would quickly learn to miss me and everything I did for her. In fact the opposite happened, she enjoyed her new independence and embraced her ability to do things on her own. All these years later she'll ask me for help sometimes, but she still does things on her own that surprise me. She's much stronger both physically and mentally than I gave her credit for. Now that's not to say that she won't learn to miss you, I'm sure she will. I'm just saying don't expect her to have some kind of epiphany that life is rough without you, because it probably won't be.
Team - I need your help!
How do I respond to this text;
“Daughter really doesn’t want to go to lacrosse tmrw. How would you feel if I didn’t go and she could stay with me?”
H:"Sonds like a great idea. Enjoy your time with her."
my son will probably have 30 baseball games this spring and 10 soccer games.
I talked with my kids and asked what they preferred. Watch the child participating in the activity, or spend time with the other two. They all picked the second option.
Most of the time, I ended up playing with all the siblings while the formal actives were happening. Good times.
Let me also ask..... it’s your wife’s weekend with the kids. She’s taking son to baseball and your daughter would rather spend time with dad and she’s sick of spending her time at her brothers baseball games ( I don’t blame her) What do you do? It does kind of stink for your daughter to have to to 30
Baseball games.
Ginger - I agree with you. I text her back and said that was fine.
My new thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2912771&#Post2912771