Another LBH (kinda) pt. 3

[SaltyDog]

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[SaltyDog]

Thank you for the thought provoking questions.

IF you are DBing only to see the impact... ????

Then you are looking at this all wrong.....

Not DBing only to see the impact, but seeing the impact is kind of a proof of concept. If I kept getting told by people on here that she going to do A, and she never does, then I'm going to be skeptical. Instead, she's doing exactly what has been predicted which makes me trust the process more.

And I think that you are trying to jump through too many of her hoops because you are trying to move forward whilst looking in the rearview mirror.

DBing is about making those changes for yourself, so that you can become you again....

And no matter how hard you try, you cannot lead from behind...

And, you are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into....

Totally agree and I also admit that when I started this process (even before joining this board) my changes were only to save the marriage and not for me. That has gradually shifted as I've started to GAL and continue to read as much as I can. My IC is also a huge help in not telling me what to do but helping guide me towards the answers so I can figure them out myself. I am in no way fully detached yet, but I'm much further along than I was.

Why are you holding her accountable for your emotions ???

Why are you holding her responsible for your decisions ???

Funny, I just finished the Four Agreements along with The Mindful Divorce and both really drove home the idea of being in charge of your own emotions and decisions. It's tough because you think you already are doing that, but when you dig a little deeper it is obvious you aren't. It's taken some work but I'm actually trying to feel compassion towards her and forgiving her - not because she deserves it, but I need to so I can stop dwelling on what has or hasn't happened. But as I think you all know, it's a bumpy ride and isn't always easy to stay on the road.

What is it, that you want (for you, not the marriage) ?????

This is really the $64,000 question, isn't it? And it is one I'm working on. The books I've been reading are big on determining your values, goals, needs, etc. And it's funny because you think you know them until you're asked to write them down. So yeah, I don't have an answer yet because depending on the day of the week, it's going to be different. Once it stop changing, I'll know.

[SaltyDog]

Also, have you ever heard of Nice Guy Syndrome? Please research it and consider reading the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.

Yes - on someone's recommendation on here. It was eye-opening to say the least and also one of the reasons I'm able to distance myself from the resentment I'd built up. Hard to be resentful when you were the root of the problem.

[SaltyDog]

Either ignore or be really ballsy and say "oh yeah then why don't you come over and show me how much you miss me".

If she was in the same state, I would've. Question is - what if she comes over?

[LH19]

Either ignore or be really ballsy and say "oh yeah then why don't you come over and show me how much you miss me".

If she was in the same state, I would've. Question is - what if she comes over?

I suspect you would have heard crickets with my suggestion but it would have been a learning lesson for you.

Not sure if I understand the question.

[SaltyDog]

Either ignore or be really ballsy and say "oh yeah then why don't you come over and show me how much you miss me".

If she was in the same state, I would've. Question is - what if she comes over?

I suspect you would have heard crickets with my suggestion but it would have been a learning lesson for you.

Not sure if I understand the question.

Guess it woud've been, because in my mind there's a good chance she comes over if I send that response to her saying she's missing me. Maybe she's just lonely because nobody else is paying attention, who knows, but if she were to come over - what then? Hop in the sack? That seems counter-productive.

[LH19]

Guess it woud've been, because in my mind there's a good chance she comes over if I send that response to her saying she's missing me. Maybe she's just lonely because nobody else is paying attention, who knows, but if she were to come over - what then? Hop in the sack? That seems counter-productive.

I would say for you it is not a good idea because you are still way attached and it would mess with your mind. I chose to sleep with my ex in the end because I was detached enough and knew it wouldn't change anything. Also at the time I thought no PA but now I am not so sure. Being the fact your W is on Tinder you better put a hoody on if you decide to to it. We have had LBS get STDs from their WWs.

[SaltyDog]

We have had LBS get STDs from their WWs.

<shudder>

[Mach1]

Totally agree and I also admit that when I started this process (even before joining this board) my changes were only to save the marriage and not for me. That has gradually shifted as I've started to GAL and continue to read as much as I can. My IC is also a huge help in not telling me what to do but helping guide me towards the answers so I can figure them out myself. I am in no way fully detached yet, but I'm much further along than I was.

You are very early into the DB process.

And to understand and to be detached isn't something that I would expect. I have read from people that have been here for years that aren't detached. So go easy on yourself there.

I think the first step is to ask yourself WHY you want to detach ?

Is it because of guilt ?

Anger??

Obligation ????

Whoa...that's a big one there....

Detachment isn't linear either. You don't just decide one day to "be" detached. It's a series of decisions, thoughts, and constant actions to propel YOU to where YOU want to be...

You don't just wake one morning and say....I am detached, and it's done....

Detaching is more of a 'way of life', rather than a decision...

Why you detach, is more important than IF you detach...

Thoughts become words
Words become decisions
Decisions become actions
Actions become behavioral patterns

Eventually? they all make up who you are inside....

So WHY do you want to detach ?

Are you standing because of guilt ?

Obligation ?

Love?

How would you define the difference between Love and Obligation ???

Where do YOU fit within that ???

Funny, I just finished the Four Agreements along with The Mindful Divorce and both really drove home the idea of being in charge of your own emotions and decisions. It's tough because you think you already are doing that, but when you dig a little deeper it is obvious you aren't. It's taken some work but I'm actually trying to feel compassion towards her and forgiving her - not because she deserves it, but I need to so I can stop dwelling on what has or hasn't happened. But as I think you all know, it's a bumpy ride and isn't always easy to stay on the road.

How about you ???

Are you feeling any forgiveness or compassion towards yourself ???

Think about how focusing YOUR healing, into your situation, can affect a clear and realistic view of who you are...

This is really the $64,000 question, isn't it? And it is one I'm working on. The books I've been reading are big on determining your values, goals, needs, etc. And it's funny because you think you know them until you're asked to write them down. So yeah, I don't have an answer yet because depending on the day of the week, it's going to be different. Once it stop changing, I'll know.

Who gets that money ???



You do realize that YOU...and YOU ALONE....

Is the only person that gets to define YOU...

Soooooo...

What day of the week should be irrelevant...

Who you want to be,.....

What kind of a person do YOU want to show to the world each and every morning....???

What kind of person do you want your children to remember when they think of you ???

What qualities do you want to pass down to them ???

It really is all about you now Dawg.....

[SaltyDog]

I think the first step is to ask yourself WHY you want to detach ?

Is it because of guilt ?

Anger??

Obligation ????

Whoa...that's a big one there....

Detachment isn't linear either. You don't just decide one day to "be" detached. It's a series of decisions, thoughts, and constant actions to propel YOU to where YOU want to be...

You don't just wake one morning and say....I am detached, and it's done....

Detaching is more of a 'way of life', rather than a decision...

Why you detach, is more important than IF you detach...

The big reason I want to detach right now is to protect myself from more pain. As long as I am getting a jolt of anxiety every time my phone goes off, or wake up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep because all the thoughts come pouring in, or getting gutted when the next bomb gets dropped, I feel like I can't be free. As long as some part of me is still including her in my decision making in any way - what will she think, what effect will it have on her - the I can't be free. And it seems like until I truly detach, those things will keep happening.

How would you define the difference between Love and Obligation ???

Where do YOU fit within that ???

How about you ???

Are you feeling any forgiveness or compassion towards yourself ???

Think about how focusing YOUR healing, into your situation, can affect a clear and realistic view of who you are...

This has been challenging for me because I've gone from blaming her for everything and being resentful to focusing on myself and how my actions contributed. From there, it is easy to start feeling guilty and upset with yourself because hindsight is 20/20. I'm trying to work on this and cut out the negative self-talk and all that stuff, but those parts are hard to set free.

You do realize that YOU...and YOU ALONE....

Is the only person that gets to define YOU...

Soooooo...

What day of the week should be irrelevant...

Who you want to be,.....

What kind of a person do YOU want to show to the world each and every morning....???

What kind of person do you want your children to remember when they think of you ???

What qualities do you want to pass down to them ???

It really is all about you now Dawg.....

Yup, it is. And the day of the week should be irrelevant, and when it comes to core values it is, but when it comes to emotions and how I feel and what I want to do and if I'm angry/sad/jealous/hopeful or something else - that rollercoaster won't stop. I try to be mindful, to note things, to try and put space between me and them, and sometimes it helps but most of the time I'm thinking "Yeah, I'm mindful of how sh!tty I'm feeling right now!!!"

[Mach1]

The big reason I want to detach right now is to protect myself from more pain. As long as I am getting a jolt of anxiety every time my phone goes off, or wake up in the middle of the night and can't go back to sleep because all the thoughts come pouring in, or getting gutted when the next bomb gets dropped, I feel like I can't be free. As long as some part of me is still including her in my decision making in any way - what will she think, what effect will it have on her - the I can't be free. And it seems like until I truly detach, those things will keep happening.

Focus on the bolded print ^^^^

Making YOUR choices and decisions will help you get there...

Focusing on YOUR decisions will help you detach.

Double edge sword there....

Chin up buddy, it will come in time....

This has been challenging for me because I've gone from blaming her for everything and being resentful to focusing on myself and how my actions contributed. From there, it is easy to start feeling guilty and upset with yourself because hindsight is 20/20. I'm trying to work on this and cut out the negative self-talk and all that stuff, but those parts are hard to set free.

When you laser focus on yourself, and your actions...

Be totally honest with yourself about what is real, and what isn't..

Own your crap, and let the rest go...

You can only address what is yours...

Yup, it is. And the day of the week should be irrelevant, and when it comes to core values it is, but when it comes to emotions and how I feel and what I want to do and if I'm angry/sad/jealous/hopeful or something else - that rollercoaster won't stop. I try to be mindful, to note things, to try and put space between me and them, and sometimes it helps but most of the time I'm thinking "Yeah, I'm mindful of how sh!tty I'm feeling right now!!!"

Then focus on you, and your core values...

What are they ?

Am I showing them, or hiding behind them ?

Dawg, this is a process...

It takes time...

Remember that nothing you did, was done intentionally to hurt anyone (I would hope)...

Learn from your mistakes, then dust off and get back on that horse...

[SaltyDog]

Been a few days so thought I'd share an update. Things have been OK of late, mostly because I have stopped most of my detaching in order to make Xmas as good as possible given the circumstances. There have been a few occasions where she has brought up my being distant, ignoring her, etc. and I've mostly shrugged it off. She also found a couple of books in our Amazon account I bought about separation and recovery from betrayal. I wasn't trying to hide them or be sneaky so I told her I was working on me. She sent a snarky reply about how that doesn't seem to involve being vulnerable (she's big on Brene Brown) or open with her since I've been so distant. I calmly replied that I can't be vulnerable without trust and I can't trust her if she's on dating sites. She replied "OK" and dropped it. I didn't push it and am not going to until after Xmas where I plan to lay out 2 options - 1. We decide to work on us, I will be open and vulnerable, and she will stop all dating. 2. She won't stop all dating and we will go from this soft separation into a full one where I can move on and fully detach. My guess is it will be option 2.

Since she's been back though she has told me repeatedly how good I look and how I've lost weight and added muscle. She's liking that, lol. I've also continued to GAL, going to jiu jitsu and getting my butt kicked whenever I can, reading reading reading, and booked a whale watching trip on a zodiac and a deep sea fishing trip for when I'm down at the coast.

[LH19]

Been a few days so thought I'd share an update. Things have been OK of late, mostly because I have stopped most of my detaching in order to make Xmas as good as possible given the circumstances.

What does stop detaching mean to you? I think you may be confused to what detachment means.

She also found a couple of books in our Amazon account I bought about separation and recovery from betrayal. I wasn't trying to hide them or be sneaky so I told her I was working on me.

This seems like manipulation on your part.

She sent a snarky reply about how that doesn't seem to involve being vulnerable (she's big on Brene Brown) or open with her since I've been so distant. I calmly replied that I can't be vulnerable without trust and I can't trust her if she's on dating sites. She replied "OK" and dropped it. I didn't push it and am not going to until after Xmas where I plan to lay out 2 options - 1. We decide to work on us, I will be open and vulnerable, and she will stop all dating. 2. She won't stop all dating and we will go from this soft separation into a full one where I can move on and fully detach. My guess is it will be option 2.

My suggestion would be just to move to option 2. If she brings up working on the marriage you can discuss it at that time.

Since she's been back though she has told me repeatedly how good I look and how I've lost weight and added muscle. She's liking that, lol.

It's standard WW manipulation.

I've also continued to GAL, going to jiu jitsu and getting my butt kicked whenever I can, reading reading reading, and booked a whale watching trip on a zodiac and a deep sea fishing trip for when I'm down at the coast.

This is good stuff. Keep it up!

[ovrrnbw]

She sent a snarky reply about how that doesn't seem to involve being vulnerable (she's big on Brene Brown) or open with her since I've been so distant.

I'm anxiously awaiting the day that the amateur psychologists and wannabe experts put the word "vulnerable" into the vocabulary graveyard. I've heard that word more in the last couple years than I've ever heard in my life. Obviously you're W is in lala land if she thinks you should be opening up with her right now.

I didn't push it and am not going to until after Xmas where I plan to lay out 2 options - 1. We decide to work on us, I will be open and vulnerable, and she will stop all dating. 2. She won't stop all dating and we will go from this soft separation into a full one where I can move on and fully detach. My guess is it will be option 2.

Skip the part of the plan where you layout 2 options to her and proceed with option 2. If she was open to option 1 you'd know it.

No reason to stop detaching.

She is not your woman, so continue to act like it.

[SaltyDog]

What does stop detaching mean to you? I think you may be confused to what detachment means.

Stopping communication beyond necessary family needs? Maybe I'm confusing it with going dark.

This seems like manipulation on your part.

Probably was in some ways, but the books were 100% worth it.

My suggestion would be just to move to option 2. If she brings up working on the marriage you can discuss it at that time.

That's a good idea. Hadn't thought of that. Thank you!

[SaltyDog]

I'm anxiously awaiting the day that the amateur psychologists and wannabe experts put the word "vulnerable" into the vocabulary graveyard. I've heard that word more in the last couple years than I've ever heard in my life. Obviously you're W is in lala land if she thinks you should be opening up with her right now.

I get why she wanted me to be more "vulnerable" back before this all happened. I was anything but. I come from a long line of Stoic Finnish folk who aren't big on showing emotion. I do now see how this isn't the best thing for a relationship, but yeah, thinking I'm going to be all open and vulnerable with her so she can go on Tinder an hour later is nuts.

Skip the part of the plan where you layout 2 options to her and proceed with option 2. If she was open to option 1 you'd know it.

No reason to stop detaching.

She is not your woman, so continue to act like it.

Both you and LH had the same reaction to not share option 1, and I like that. I also do feel slightly empowered by the fact I am getting my sh!t together finally and feeling better about myself. Not because it's going to make her swoon and fall into my arms, but there at least some times where I feel like I've taken some control back in my life (got a long way to go though) and when the gut punches or hurt happen - they move on quicker and hurt a little less each time.

[LH19]

Stopping communication beyond necessary family needs? Maybe I'm confusing it with going dark.

Oh boy, you don't even know the fundamentals.

"Success depends upon previous preparation, and without such preparation there is sure to be failure." ~ Confucius

Probably was in some ways, but the books were 100% worth it.

I am sure they are but I would start with DB basics. Also, she can see right through you.

That's a good idea. Hadn't thought of that. Thank you!

The only thing that has an effect on a WW are strong actions.

[SteveLW]

Been a few days so thought I'd share an update. Things have been OK of late, mostly because I have stopped most of my detaching in order to make Xmas as good as possible given the circumstances. There have been a few occasions where she has brought up my being distant, ignoring her, etc. and I've mostly shrugged it off. She also found a couple of books in our Amazon account I bought about separation and recovery from betrayal. I wasn't trying to hide them or be sneaky so I told her I was working on me. She sent a snarky reply about how that doesn't seem to involve being vulnerable (she's big on Brene Brown) or open with her since I've been so distant. I calmly replied that I can't be vulnerable without trust and I can't trust her if she's on dating sites. She replied "OK" and dropped it. I didn't push it and am not going to until after Xmas where I plan to lay out 2 options - 1. We decide to work on us, I will be open and vulnerable, and she will stop all dating. 2. She won't stop all dating and we will go from this soft separation into a full one where I can move on and fully detach. My guess is it will be option 2.

Since she's been back though she has told me repeatedly how good I look and how I've lost weight and added muscle. She's liking that, lol. I've also continued to GAL, going to jiu jitsu and getting my butt kicked whenever I can, reading reading reading, and booked a whale watching trip on a zodiac and a deep sea fishing trip for when I'm down at the coast.

Why is it her choice? Salty, you have more control over this than you think you do. The problem is that you aren't detached and you are thinking like a a weak, overly attached beta male. "Please get off the dating sites and work on us! PLEASE!"

You do not get to choose if she is on dating sites. You do get to choose whether or not you are a soft separation or a full one. Likely you like this soft one because you are too afraid to move to full separation. So what you have done so far is taught her that it is okay for her to be on dating sites and STILL demand you be vulnerable. -puke-

So rather than give her a choice, the right move here is to move on to full separation. You do not discuss this (remember, action not words). You simply decide what full separation looks like and move to that. ACTION.

Stop engaging with her on things like the above conversation. Most LBSs say too much and that is exactly what you are doing. The barb about vulnerability should have been ignored.

[SaltyDog]

Stopping communication beyond necessary family needs? Maybe I'm confusing it with going dark.

Oh boy, you don't even know the fundamentals.

"Success depends upon previous preparation, and without such preparation there is sure to be failure." ~ Confucius .

Yeah, I had been using detaching to describe going dark. Found this post that helped. I'm still definitely detaching in regards to "us" and trying to be aware of getting sucked back in.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2537289

I am sure they are but I would start with DB basics. Also, she can see right through you.

Most likely, but I am caring less and less about that. Looking back I know I wasn't being honest about some of my intentions and that I was being manipulative rather than genuine. I'm nowhere near where I need to be, and the urge to throw out snarky and hurtful comments is SO STRONG, but I'm slowly moving in the right direction. I realize now that the urge to throw out those comments is evidence I haven't detached. If I had, I wouldn't care so strongly about wanting to do it.

[SaltyDog]

First I wanted to say that I've found the best posts on here are the ones that trigger my defensiveness. Thank you for nudging me out of my comfort zone.

Why is it her choice? Salty, you have more control over this than you think you do. The problem is that you aren't detached and you are thinking like a a weak, overly attached beta male. "Please get off the dating sites and work on us! PLEASE!"

You do not get to choose if she is on dating sites. You do get to choose whether or not you are a soft separation or a full one. Likely you like this soft one because you are too afraid to move to full separation. So what you have done so far is taught her that it is okay for her to be on dating sites and STILL demand you be vulnerable. -puke-

So rather than give her a choice, the right move here is to move on to full separation. You do not discuss this (remember, action not words). You simply decide what full separation looks like and move to that. ACTION.

I agree with your overall sentiment and it makes me want to puke when I think of the situation we are currently in. I agree with you and the others that it shouldn't be presented as a choice for her and instead should instead be me telling her what I am going to do. The reason I want to discuss it vs. just doing it is back when we first talked about all this and laid out what it was going to look like we agreed to things like still having family dinners on Sundays, still doing things as a family (Xmas, New Years, etc.) and now that agreement needs to be changed/dissolved and understood that things will be different moving forward.

[Mach1]

Dawg....

I look at your timeline, and I read your words...

And it occurs to me that you are merely taking the steps laid out before you here, without really understanding fully the "whys" of what you are doing, or being asked to do.

And that is totally normal for the stage that you are in...

When I say that this is a "process" , I mean that you may not understand why LH wants you to do this, or Steve asks you to do that.

When I asked you the questions above, your answer last week will NOT be the same answer that you might give a few months from now.

Rarely in these situations, does an ultimatum work. Typically it will "push" the WAS out the door faster.

Usually with a WAS, nothing that you say or do will have an effect on them, yet everything that you say an do WILL have an effect on them. Make sense ? yeah, probably not.

I see guys come on here, and struggle with doing this or doing that. Trying to talk their way out of something that they acted their way into. Thinking that if they just apologize, then things will be all right, and they can just get back to life as they once knew it.

They think that magically, their situation is somewhat different than all of the rest of them here. Hell, I thought that too.

If I just explain a little harder, or one more apology, or if I just wash the dishes tonight, of take out the trash one more time.....then things will turn around for us...

It doesn't work that way.

I would always ask, what exactly are you apologizing for ?

To truly apologize, one has to be able to fully understand what they are apologizing for...

To what depths have your previous actions cut her??

How sharp were your words ???

How shallow were your actions ??


All of that ^^^^ is for YOU Dawg....

Nobody else gets to participate in the rebuilding of YOU....

No of that should be done for "her" , or the "marriage"....that is for you....

So, take some time, work on you...

Get lost in yourself.

Stop worrying about every little interaction that you have with her. Shine when it's time, heal when there is time, and understand that this thing is "bigger" than you, her , or the marriage right now....

Talk less
Act more

She fired you from your job as her husband......treat it that way....


To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, a time to reap that which is planted;
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together;
A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
A time to gain that which is to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
A time of love, and a time of hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


So....

What is YOUR plan for the holidays ????

[AnotherStander]

Things have been OK of late, mostly because I have stopped most of my detaching in order to make Xmas as good as possible given the circumstances.

Interesting. So when you say you've stopped detaching, you mean you're communicating with her more versus going dark? And that has resulted in an improvement in your R with her? Then keep doing it. Like Michele says, do what works, stop doing what doesn't work. You can't snap her out of the fog, but you CAN "keep the way home paved and smooth". What does that mean, well it means treat her with kindness and respect even when she doesn't do the same for you. It means let her go and go about your life while leaving the door open to a future with her.

Sometimes you'll hear folks here say to treat the WAS like you would a casual neighbor. You might chat with them but you're not going to share your innermost secrets, or spend hours and hours hanging out with them. You'll make some small talk and then excuse yourself to go do something else that is none of their business.

There have been a few occasions where she has brought up my being distant, ignoring her, etc. and I've mostly shrugged it off.

Don't shrug anything off. Listen and validate. "I hear you saying you feel I've been distant and ignoring you, I'm sorry I've made you feel this way, this is something I will work on." Giving her time and space doesn't mean shutting her out completely. It's fine to keep lines of communication open, and to be friendly and polite when you do talk. The whole "going dark" thing is really a last resort technique for people who are being abused by their WAS, or people that just cannot let go and detach. It's to save the LBS, not the M.

She sent a snarky reply about how that doesn't seem to involve being vulnerable (she's big on Brene Brown) or open with her since I've been so distant. I calmly replied that I can't be vulnerable without trust and I can't trust her if she's on dating sites. She replied "OK" and dropped it.

Again, don't turn it into an R talk, just listen and validate. "I hear you saying you don't feel I'm being vulnerable enough, I can understand why you would say that." Note that you're not AGREEING with her, you're merely acknowledging her feelings. Because even if you think her feelings are wrong or misplaced, they ARE her feelings and ALL feelings are valid to the person experiencing them.

I didn't push it and am not going to until after Xmas where I plan to lay out 2 options - 1. We decide to work on us, I will be open and vulnerable, and she will stop all dating. 2. She won't stop all dating and we will go from this soft separation into a full one where I can move on and fully detach. My guess is it will be option 2.

Sounds like you're trying to control and manipulate to me. These "ultimatums" are a terrible idea. First of all, they never go like the LBS hopes they will. Second of all, the LBS rarely goes through with the threat, so it makes them look even more wimpy and indecisive. You may THINK you are fine with option 2, but I think if you're honest with yourself what you are hoping is that she'll be so afraid of option 2 that she will agree to option 1. But she WILL NOT! She's more likely to go on a tirade and tell you what a controlling, manipulative jerk you are and that she will never ever in a zillion years want to be with you again. So then what do you do? You either do nothing which makes you look powerless, or you push S through yourself which is YOU doing all the work for HER. It's a lose-lose situation for you. What you SHOULD do is.... yeah this will come as no surprise... DETACH! Leave her alone! Give her time and space. Let HER make the decisions about the R. And if she doesn't make any decisions? MORE time and space!

Always remember this- you can't NICE her back.... and you can't MEAN her back.

Since she's been back though she has told me repeatedly how good I look and how I've lost weight and added muscle. She's liking that, lol. I've also continued to GAL, going to jiu jitsu and getting my butt kicked whenever I can, reading reading reading, and booked a whale watching trip on a zodiac and a deep sea fishing trip for when I'm down at the coast.

PERFECT, more of this!

[SaltyDog]

Thank you for the response and excellent points!

Interesting. So when you say you've stopped detaching, you mean you're communicating with her more versus going dark? And that has resulted in an improvement in your R with her? Then keep doing it. Like Michele says, do what works, stop doing what doesn't work. You can't snap her out of the fog, but you CAN "keep the way home paved and smooth". What does that mean, well it means treat her with kindness and respect even when she doesn't do the same for you. It means let her go and go about your life while leaving the door open to a future with her.

Yes, we are communicating more and it has "improved" things as much as it can given the sitch. I do find myself being much more guarded in my communication and deliberate though. I do try and treat her with respect and try to be "impeccable with my words" as much as I can.

Don't shrug anything off. Listen and validate. "I hear you saying you feel I've been distant and ignoring you, I'm sorry I've made you feel this way, this is something I will work on." Giving her time and space doesn't mean shutting her out completely. It's fine to keep lines of communication open, and to be friendly and polite when you do talk.

I feel like I have a hard time distinguishing when to respond and keep lines of communication open vs. just not responding at all. Of course my past default was to respond to everything and I went from that to the opposite side (for me) of not responding or at least not right away.

Sounds like you're trying to control and manipulate to me. These "ultimatums" are a terrible idea. First of all, they never go like the LBS hopes they will. Second of all, the LBS rarely goes through with the threat, so it makes them look even more wimpy and indecisive. You may THINK you are fine with option 2, but I think if you're honest with yourself what you are hoping is that she'll be so afraid of option 2 that she will agree to option 1. But she WILL NOT! She's more likely to go on a tirade and tell you what a controlling, manipulative jerk you are and that she will never ever in a zillion years want to be with you again. So then what do you do? You either do nothing which makes you look powerless, or you push S through yourself which is YOU doing all the work for HER. It's a lose-lose situation for you. What you SHOULD do is.... yeah this will come as no surprise... DETACH! Leave her alone! Give her time and space. Let HER make the decisions about the R. And if she doesn't make any decisions? MORE time and space!

Always remember this- you can't NICE her back.... and you can't MEAN her back.
!

I am not thinking of it as an ultimatum or to manipulate her. And reading what others have said and thinking about it more it shouldn't be presented that way and instead more of a change to the current agreement. The reason I need this is for myself. Playing house, having family dinners, still acting as if things were normal, etc. is just setting me up for more hurt. It also makes me feel disrespected when I know what she's doing in her free time. She's wanting the comfort I provide to make it easy for her to get what she wants elsewhere and I am done with that. I am 100% sure she won't give up the dating sites, or even if she did I wouldn't trust it, so I need to move from this current soft separation to one where I can fully detach without getting random texts, requests to fix something, nights spent in bed cuddling, etc. that just serve to make it hurt more when I think about the dating sites. But you are right about manipulating in general though, I definitely have been doing that in different ways, but I see be making this change it will also make it so I can't be as manipulative. Harder to do that if you aren't in constant communication.

[SaltyDog]

Thank you Mach1, always good to read your posts.

Dawg....

I look at your timeline, and I read your words...

And it occurs to me that you are merely taking the steps laid out before you here, without really understanding fully the "whys" of what you are doing, or being asked to do.

And that is totally normal for the stage that you are in...

When I say that this is a "process" , I mean that you may not understand why LH wants you to do this, or Steve asks you to do that.

When I asked you the questions above, your answer last week will NOT be the same answer that you might give a few months from now.

My answers might not be the same from day-to-day or hour-to-hour. Which is why I have such a hard time trusting my thoughts and feelings. They are too volatile. I am slowly getting the "whys" though. I need to stop thinking of these actions as ways to "get her back" and instead as a way to improve my life, which may or may not end up with getting her back at some point down the road.

Rarely in these situations, does an ultimatum work. Typically it will "push" the WAS out the door faster.

So my question then is how do I let her know that some of the things we previously agreed to (family dinners) are no longer on the table if she's on dating sites?

If I just explain a little harder, or one more apology, or if I just wash the dishes tonight, of take out the trash one more time.....then things will turn around for us...

I have no desire to apologize. Quite the opposite actually. And when it comes to doing things around the house it is more along the lines of doing less. I wasn't the typical absent husband when it came to housework. I do all the cooking, because I like to cook and also the kids get scared when she tries to cook. I was probably overly involved looking back which is why I started resenting her for not seeing what I was doing. All the usual "nice guy" things. Now I am trying to be aware of what I am doing and why. If it is something that I would want to do anyway like cook, get the coffee ready for the morning, etc. then I still do it. If it something I would've done in the past as a way to show her "look what I did for you!!!" then I don't do it.

Nobody else gets to participate in the rebuilding of YOU....

No of that should be done for "her" , or the "marriage"....that is for you....

So, take some time, work on you...

Get lost in yourself.

I am (slowly) getting there.

What is YOUR plan for the holidays ????

I will be at the house with the family from the 24th-26th. My 10 year old is having a hard time with things right now and wanted me to stay at the house all week because it is Christmas week and wants us to be together. That was tough. He's asking if we're getting divorced, why I'm not there, and what's going to happen. So my goal is to be there for my kids and be 100% present with them. I will be kind and respectful to my W with my head high. I want to enjoy things myself as well and maybe live in a dream world for a few days but keeping the reality of the situation in the back of my mind.

[LH19]

So my question then is how do I let her know that some of the things we previously agreed to (family dinners) are no longer on the table if she's on dating sites?

W what we originally agreed to is no longer working for me.

[Steve_]

Dawg,

Im glad you noticed that NGS is a huge resentment builder and marriage killer. Of course I read NMMG after my WW left me and I realize it now but I guess better late than never.

You will find a lot of LH19's stuff follows along what Corey Wayne would say on youtube, he has a very agressive take it or leave it approach, but something he says is totally worth putting in your pocket especially regarding NGS and it is "A relationship is about giving, you go there to give and not to see what you get in return"

Good job connecting the NGS and resentment its big.

Cheers,
Steve_

[AnotherStander]

I feel like I have a hard time distinguishing when to respond and keep lines of communication open vs. just not responding at all. Of course my past default was to respond to everything and I went from that to the opposite side (for me) of not responding or at least not right away.

The rule of thumb we give is sometimes respond right away, sometimes wait an hour or so, and sometimes (if it's nothing important) don't reply at all. The idea isn't to seem cold and indifferent, but rather, you are just busy living life. Make her wonder what you're up to, not why you are being rude. Make sense? Of course it's different if you're still under the same roof because she probably knows where you are most of the time. So if you're at work she probably knows your phone is right there and that if you don't reply then it's intentional. The rule works better if separated.

I am not thinking of it as an ultimatum or to manipulate her.

It doesn't matter, what matters is her perception of it, and that is likely how she will perceive it.

The reason I need this is for myself. Playing house, having family dinners, still acting as if things were normal, etc. is just setting me up for more hurt. It also makes me feel disrespected when I know what she's doing in her free time. She's wanting the comfort I provide to make it easy for her to get what she wants elsewhere and I am done with that. I am 100% sure she won't give up the dating sites, or even if she did I wouldn't trust it, so I need to move from this current soft separation to one where I can fully detach without getting random texts, requests to fix something, nights spent in bed cuddling, etc. that just serve to make it hurt more when I think about the dating sites.

I do understand that, and if you decide you need to separate then by all means do so. I'm a firm believer that separation is a better path to reconciliation then trying to exist under the same roof. The resentment just continues to grow and grow while you continue living together. I mean Steve did it but it's pretty uncommon. But if you have any doubts at all, then wait. Separating now versus 6 months from now really doesn't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.

[SaltyDog]

The rule of thumb we give is sometimes respond right away, sometimes wait an hour or so, and sometimes (if it's nothing important) don't reply at all. The idea isn't to seem cold and indifferent, but rather, you are just busy living life. Make her wonder what you're up to, not why you are being rude. Make sense? Of course it's different if you're still under the same roof because she probably knows where you are most of the time. So if you're at work she probably knows your phone is right there and that if you don't reply then it's intentional. The rule works better if separated.

This is definitely where I have struggled - especially when it is obvious it is intentional. I need to find that happy medium where I actually am detached and don't need to think about if/when I should respond. Right now it feels more manipulative because I am not there yet.

I do understand that, and if you decide you need to separate then by all means do so. I'm a firm believer that separation is a better path to reconciliation then trying to exist under the same roof. The resentment just continues to grow and grow while you continue living together. I mean Steve did it but it's pretty uncommon. But if you have any doubts at all, then wait. Separating now versus 6 months from now really doesn't make a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.

My issue is that she says she wants me to show her I can be vulnerable and open with her (whether their is any truth to that is another conversation) which I could attempt if I felt like we were both working on things. As long as she's on dating sites I can't open myself up like she says she wants me too. She's getting her cake and eating it too while I'm over here eating sh!t sandwiches. Since we are already 75% separated (sharing an apartment and taking turns co-parenting) I see it as going to 100% and removing the family stuff we agreed to. That way I can focus more on me without the weekly reminders of how messed up things are or getting lulled back into a sense of false security.

[SaltyDog]

Dawg,

Im glad you noticed that NGS is a huge resentment builder and marriage killer. Of course I read NMMG after my WW left me and I realize it now but I guess better late than never.

You will find a lot of LH19's stuff follows along what Corey Wayne would say on youtube, he has a very agressive take it or leave it approach, but something he says is totally worth putting in your pocket especially regarding NGS and it is "A relationship is about giving, you go there to give and not to see what you get in return"

Good job connecting the NGS and resentment its big.

Cheers,
Steve_

The nice guy stuff has been a bitter pill to swallow but damn I wish I had gotten to it sooner. Of course, even if I had chances are I wouldn't put them into action out of fear of rocking the boat. I do now have a better sense of assertiveness and confidence. I don't know if it is real or wishful thinking but either way - fake it 'til you make it!

[Mach1]

My issue is that she says she wants me to show her I can be vulnerable and open with her (whether their is any truth to that is another conversation) which I could attempt if I felt like we were both working on things. As long as she's on dating sites I can't open myself up like she says she wants me too. She's getting her cake and eating it too while I'm over here eating sh!t sandwiches. Since we are already 75% separated (sharing an apartment and taking turns co-parenting) I see it as going to 100% and removing the family stuff we agreed to. That way I can focus more on me without the weekly reminders of how messed up things are or getting lulled back into a sense of false security.

Like I said....

She fired you from that job...

She is actively seeking a relationship outside of your marriage...

Why would you be vulnerable to her ?



Aloof , yet available..... was my way through it...

Validate when you can, yet remember that you are NOT her emotional support at the moment.

Let her "miss" you , and feel the ramifications of her decision.

Not to punish her in any way...just because you are too busy in 'you' , to give away any of your power....

[SaltyDog]

Aloof , yet available..... was my way through it...

I like that! Thank you.

[AnotherStander]

This is definitely where I have struggled - especially when it is obvious it is intentional. I need to find that happy medium where I actually am detached and don't need to think about if/when I should respond. Right now it feels more manipulative because I am not there yet.

This stuff is not easy! Don't expect to be a DB'ing master right away, it takes time. You'll get the hang of it.

As long as she's on dating sites I can't open myself up like she says she wants me to.

I forgot to clarify earlier when I was talking about listening and validating, I did not mean to do what she says. It's all about letting her know that you acknowledge her feelings and that you consider them valid. But certainly as Mach1 has stated, opening up to her and being vulnerable is NOT on the table. So she says she wants you to be vulnerable, you listen, you empathize, then you set it aside. I mean to be honest she's just blowing smoke up your skirt. This is just another WAS excuse for not wanting to get back together. "We'll never be able to fix this because you don't do A, B, C and D". It's WAS script, moving targets. You do A, B, C and D and then suddenly it's E, F, G and H that are deal-killers for her.

She's getting her cake and eating it too while I'm over here eating sh!t sandwiches.

Yup. If I had a dollar for every poop sandwich I consumed thanks to my XW I'd be wealthy indeed I think most here can say the same!

[SteveLW]

This is definitely where I have struggled - especially when it is obvious it is intentional. I need to find that happy medium where I actually am detached and don't need to think about if/when I should respond. Right now it feels more manipulative because I am not there yet.

This stuff is not easy! Don't expect to be a DB'ing master right away, it takes time. You'll get the hang of it.

As long as she's on dating sites I can't open myself up like she says she wants me to.

I forgot to clarify earlier when I was talking about listening and validating, I did not mean to do what she says. It's all about letting her know that you acknowledge her feelings and that you consider them valid. But certainly as Mach1 has stated, opening up to her and being vulnerable is NOT on the table. So she says she wants you to be vulnerable, you listen, you empathize, then you set it aside. I mean to be honest she's just blowing smoke up your skirt. This is just another WAS excuse for not wanting to get back together. "We'll never be able to fix this because you don't do A, B, C and D". It's WAS script, moving targets. You do A, B, C and D and then suddenly it's E, F, G and H that are deal-killers for her.

She's getting her cake and eating it too while I'm over here eating sh!t sandwiches.

Yup. If I had a dollar for every poop sandwich I consumed thanks to my XW I'd be wealthy indeed I think most here can say the same!

Salt, AS is dead on, as usual here. Committing to DBing is the key. Making mistakes while DBing is almost a guarantee. The posters we see here that do well are the ones that learn from the mistakes. The ones that struggle are the ones that make excuses as to why DBing will not work. Probably the DB component that gets the most excuses is GAL. And I maintain that in my own experience proved how important it is. I struggled the most when I wasn't busy.

Salty, I see t that you are doing better with GAL. Keep that up and you'll get better at detaching as you go.

[Steve_]

You will do the things that I have done that did not help in any manner:

Overthink everything she says/does
Try to mind read her words/actions
Try to put yourself in her shoes and figure out what it means.
Blame yourself.
Take good advice and toss it out the window.
Bring up the R too much.
Be too available.
Apologize for everything.
Wallow in self-hate, regret, what-ifs, and fear of loss.

This is all a completely normal response to losing an attachment. These things are programmed into us as children with our caregivers and are part of survivability. But they are NOT good measure for DB. You will do them, every single human does. What you must do is identify that you WILL do them, allow yourself to not beat yourself down when you do, and just do better the next time. You will get there.

Remember every time you get emotional, needy, want to talk or any of that your appearing annoying, weak and pathetic, unless that is how you want her to see you as a man, don't do that.

Hang in there brother.

[SaltyDog]

So made it through Xmas for the kids - actually pulled it off nicely. I had a moment of weakness in the middle of opening presents where I started getting teared up thinking this is probably the last Xmas we'll have together as a family. Get to the end of the night and we're in bed. I think she assumed I was asleep or just didn't care but she was texting someone. I asked and after some initial deflection she says it is the OM. I get angry, she gets defensive "I can't tell my friends merry Christmas?" and I leave the room for a while to cool off. When I come back she's obviously still texting and I tell her this isn't working for me and that I can't meet her needs if she's going to continue talking to him and being on dating sites. She denies a PA but admits to EA. She also says she hasn't gone on any dates but is talking to people and it is nice to be flattered and feels good. I say some more things when I should've just shut up but I was too angry to keep my mouth shut and eventually she leaves to go stay at the studio. So now I'm just angry and tired of this sh!t.

[LH19]

SD,

I’m sorry you had an unpleasant Christmas night.

So it’s about respect and right now she has none for you.

How do you start to get respect back? With boundaries. Right now you have none.

So a couple things you need to know right now. The person who cares the least about the relationship is in control. There is absolutely nothing you can do to get her to stop sleeping with other men.

[SteveLW]

Sorry man. Been there done that. Didn't like it. One thing I learned in my sitch is that rarely are good decisions made when you're emotional. Take some time to process all of this and to calm down. When you're thinking rationally again things will become clearer. I think her going to the studio was the best outcome for the night.

Hang in there man, you'll be alright.

[SaltyDog]

How do you start to get respect back? With boundaries. Right now you have none.

Yup. That is true.

So a couple things you need to know right now. The person who cares the least about the relationship is in control.

Sad thing is I find myself caring less and less. Maybe it is denial or just the anger talking but instead of being focused on ways to get her back, I'm focused on ways to tell her to f-off.

[SaltyDog]

Sorry man. Been there done that. Didn't like it. One thing I learned in my sitch is that rarely are good decisions made when you're emotional. Take some time to process all of this and to calm down. When you're thinking rationally again things will become clearer. I think her going to the studio was the best outcome for the night.

Hang in there man, you'll be alright.

Yeah, and it was an emotional day on a bunch of levels, I had too much wine, on top of the elephant in the room - it was a perfect storm. I didn't do any begging, pleading, or apologizing. At some points she tried to make small jokes to lighten the mood but then saw the look on my face and would say "stop glaring at me.."

At least tomorrow at this time I'll be OMW to the coast and 3 days of nothing but GAL.

[LH19]

How do you start to get respect back? With boundaries. Right now you have none.

Yup. That is true.

So a couple things you need to know right now. The person who cares the least about the relationship is in control.

Sad thing is I find myself caring less and less. Maybe it is denial or just the anger talking but instead of being focused on ways to get her back, I'm focused on ways to tell her to f-off.

The hardest thing for the LBS to realize is that they can do absolutely nothing to get them back. That ship has sailed.

Learning to control your emotions is an attractive trait and something you can focus.

Have fun on your 3 day get away.

[LH19]

What’s up diggity dog?

[SaltyDog]

What’s up diggity dog?

Just livin' the dream my man. Thanks for asking. Things have been all over the place with no shortage of excitement. But the short version is not much has changed. Except we started having a lot of sex at the studio which was fun but meaningless. My trip to the coast was good, caught my limits of ling cod and rockfish, hiked up a cliff that I normally would "nope" out of due to fear of heights and having the coordination of a drunk water buffalo. Started dry January and a 30 day yoga challenge with the new year and was really enjoying it. Then on Monday night I broke a rib while sparring in jiu-jitsu. Talk about a let down. I drove to the ER, wife told me not to and that she would take me but being a man I didn't listen. So since then we've been at the house together and things have been very "normal" like nothing had changed. But that isn't a good thing because she's doing things that are bugging me that I used to put up with and now I don't feel like putting up with them anymore. It's like a reminder of what things were really like vs. the rose colored memories. I'm not doing/saying anything about it for now though. FIgure I'd wait until I'm off the narcotics before doing anything rash. Ultimately I'm coming to the realization I am not happy and probably haven't been for a long time. And I want to be happy again. And my current, somewhat depressed, slightly impaired, and very frustrated mind is telling me is that being happy and being with her are mutually exclusive. So there's that. Still not drinking though and am planning on doing the yoga challenge once I am able to put shoes one without having to get up the nerve first.

[LH19]

Sorry about your rib. The rest is interesting to say the least. Zero expectations. Yep. There is a saying around here that the only difference between the WW and a LBS is timing. Your GAL seems strong. Any more thoughts about wrapping up the love nest moving back home full time and letting her decide what she’s going to do?

[SaltyDog]

Sorry about your rib. The rest is interesting to say the least. Zero expectations. Yep. There is a saying around here that the only difference between the WW and a LBS is timing. Your GAL seems strong. Any more thoughts about wrapping up the love nest moving back home full time and letting her decide what she’s going to do?

Do you mean wrapping it up for both of us or for me to not go there anymore and to make her live there full time? Because right now as soon as I'm moving better, my plan is to go there for an extended period of time and letting her deal with these crazy little crotch-goblins (who I love dearly) full time!

[LH19]

Sorry about your rib. The rest is interesting to say the least. Zero expectations. Yep. There is a saying around here that the only difference between the WW and a LBS is timing. Your GAL seems strong. Any more thoughts about wrapping up the love nest moving back home full time and letting her decide what she’s going to do?

Do you mean wrapping it up for both of us or for me to not go there anymore and to make her live there full time? Because right now as soon as I'm moving better, my plan is to go there for an extended period of time and letting her deal with these crazy little crotch-goblins (who I love dearly) full time!

Nope. I mean take your house back and let her go there permanently if she so chooses.

[SaltyDog]

Sorry about your rib. The rest is interesting to say the least. Zero expectations. Yep. There is a saying around here that the only difference between the WW and a LBS is timing. Your GAL seems strong. Any more thoughts about wrapping up the love nest moving back home full time and letting her decide what she’s going to do?

Do you mean wrapping it up for both of us or for me to not go there anymore and to make her live there full time? Because right now as soon as I'm moving better, my plan is to go there for an extended period of time and letting her deal with these crazy little crotch-goblins (who I love dearly) full time!

Nope. I mean take your house back and let her go there permanently if she so chooses.

Can I go there permanently? (he says half-jokingly....)

[LH19]

I had hopes for you Dog.

[SaltyDog]

I had hopes for you Dog.

I know, I know. Just wishful thinking and being tired physically and mentally makes it seem attractive to get outta Dodge. Won't actually do it though.

[LH19]

Is there a reason you won't take your home back?

[Traveler]

Hi SaltyDog, abandoning the family home to let her deal with the "crotch-goblins" full time would simultaneously reduce your chances of reconciliation and give you a lesser relationship with the kids (which would be notable in a D). If R is no longer as important to you, that latter consideration seems key.

If you re-take your home, you get to be with your kids 100% of the time, minus whatever time you/she chooses to go out for quiet time or activites, until the rental expires or she solves that issue.

[SaltyDog]

Is there a reason you won't take your home back?

1. I enjoy my time away from here and at the apt. I've worked from home for 6 years and now this past year with Covid I've spent even more time here with the whole family, so having a place where I can go and just process sh!t away from here is nice. Having a break from constant interruptions, tattling, cleaning, cooking, blah, blah, blah, is helpful in keeping my sh!t together.
2. We both pay the mortgage equally but her parents gifted us the down payment to buy the house. If/when the final split happens I'd most likely be the one looking for a new place if we don't end up selling the house. So I don't really see it as being "my" house to take back.

[SaltyDog]

Hi SaltyDog, abandoning the family home to let her deal with the "crotch-goblins" full time would simultaneously reduce your chances of reconciliation and give you a lesser relationship with the kids (which would be notable in a D). If R is no longer as important to you, that latter consideration seems key.

I wasn't being serious. I would never abandon the boys or jeopardize my relationship with them no matter what. They are my #1 source of happiness, in spite of also being my #2 source of daily frustration!

[LH19]

2. We both pay the mortgage equally but her parents gifted us the down payment to buy the house. If/when the final split happens I'd most likely be the one looking for a new place if we don't end up selling the house. So I don't really see it as being "my" house to take back.

It's more of a symbol that this arrangement isn't working for you anymore.

[SaltyDog]

2. We both pay the mortgage equally but her parents gifted us the down payment to buy the house. If/when the final split happens I'd most likely be the one looking for a new place if we don't end up selling the house. So I don't really see it as being "my" house to take back.

It's more of a symbol that this arrangement isn't working for you anymore.

that makes sense, I was thinking more literally of it being "my" house.

[SaltyDog]

Yesterday was a rollercoaster of a day. Started out fine, felt good, rib was feeling better, and was in a good place. I even went on a hike with a buddy to get outside. I then met her at the studio since we were switching out and everything was normal between us and then she left to back to the house and I was alone. And then the thoughts, emotions, feelings, etc. that I had been holding in while being home in front of the kids or while working just started bubbling up. The realization of how silly this all is, how much pain there is, all of it just started coming out. It was a good hour of losing my sh!t and letting it all out, and afterwards I did feel much better. More centered and more of the wanting to continue to take back control over my life. I settled in to read a book and a few hours later get a text asking if I can come back home. Long story short, her mom (in another state) is sending her messages about how she doesn't want to live anymore, that my wife doesn't care about her, nobody does, blah, blah, blah. So I go back, spend the night with her (no sex) and hold her. We talk about things, she thanks me 100x for being there for her and apologizes for the whole mess. So now I'm back at the house, she will probably drive down and be there if an intervention is needed, and I'll be with the boys. I know this reeks of "Nice Guy" and trying to ride in and save the day, but I knew if I didn't she'd be a wreck and the kids would be the ones to take the brunt of it. She wouldn't be able to be there for them. I am also doing my best to be mindful of this situation, and how tired I am of dealing with her family's bullsh!t, and that has put me more in a mindset of "I don't want this anymore" than "I hope she sees how great I am and we get back together." But of course, it's easy to fall back into old, comfortable ways. So we'll see where this all goes.

[LH19]

SD,

Glad you were able to process your emotions.

Yep reeks of NGS. I had hopes for your situation. You’re friend zoning yourself. That will be tough to get out of my friend.

It’s tough but to turn these around you need to have strength.

[SaltyDog]

Yep reeks of NGS. I had hopes for your situation. You’re friend zoning yourself. That will be tough to get out of my friend.

It’s tough but to turn these around you need to have strength.

I get it. It just goes against my nature - not just from this relationship, but all of them - and it is so damn hard to break that cycle when it arises. It's like Pavlov's frickin' dogs. And it is so stupid because at least those dogs got a treat at the end.

[LH19]

Lol. You’ll get a treat in the end too. You just don’t know it yet.

[SaltyDog]

It's sad to look back - and not even on just me but most of the LBSs on here - and see how much sh!t we put up with and yet still WANT to get the other person back. What a lack of self-respect and boundaries. If I was talking to a buddy, I'd be saying "why are you putting up with that? Get the hell out of there!" If I was watching this in a movie I'd be thinking the main character is an idiot for staying with her and deserves what he gets. And yet, here I am, knowingly being an idiot. Knowingly putting myself in harm's way and yet blaming her when I get hurt. How stupid is that? I'm the one making the wrong decisions, I'm the one who isn't strong enough to just leave, and I'm the one who is putting a target on my back saying "hurt me, please!" That needs to change.

[Traveler]

lol @ SaltyDog! On top of it all, a display of low self-respect and boundaries makes one less attractive. This is a great realization the next time we consider going into contortions to please someone else.

[LH19]

Well it’s easy for a buddy to say because he’s not emotionally attached and his life hasn’t been flipped upside down.

I’m a believer we were put in these situations to grow. We got stagnant and complacent and the universe said if you are not going to grow I will force you to grow.

I’ve said from my first post to you I got the sense that if you took your balls back from your Ws purse you had a chance. This is coming from someone who thinks 90% of the LBS have zero chance at stopping D.

One thing I have noticed is I think the disrespect is at an all time high these days. Most of the WWs are in open affairs and on dating websites. They don’t even try to hide it anymore.

Time to put your big boy pants on stop the madness.

I would be happy to help you develop a plan.

[97Hope]

It's sad to look back - and not even on just me but most of the LBSs on here - and see how much sh!t we put up with and yet still WANT to get the other person back. What a lack of self-respect and boundaries. If I was talking to a buddy, I'd be saying "why are you putting up with that? Get the hell out of there!" If I was watching this in a movie I'd be thinking the main character is an idiot for staying with her and deserves what he gets. And yet, here I am, knowingly being an idiot. Knowingly putting myself in harm's way and yet blaming her when I get hurt. How stupid is that? I'm the one making the wrong decisions, I'm the one who isn't strong enough to just leave, and I'm the one who is putting a target on my back saying "hurt me, please!" That needs to change.

I love this!! The veil is slipping - you are beginning to see this for what it is. Don't go backwards! Keep asking yourself - what would I tell my friend?? What would I tell my son if this was his W?? Listen to advice from people who love you and don't want you to be treated like garbage. And most of all....

Be your own friend.

No, you don't deserve this...but you are accepting it. You have a choice to make right now. Choose how you will be treated. As they say here 100 times a day - you can only control yourself.

Think of other things in your life that required courage and remember who you are.

I had a picture of Sly Stalone in Rambo (when he put the red bandana on right before going to fight). I'm kind of weird but it worked for me and I've used that pic a LOT! lol Music? Quotes of strength. - Whatever you need to do to find strength and courage to move forward and stop going back to the abuse. Keep coming here and reading! Post often! You aren't alone!

(I read and re-read The Art of War) good stuff and not triggering. It gave me a break from 'self-help'.

Hang in there, Salty! Time to say no more to the (censored)!!

((hugs))

[LH19]

Listen to on YouTube “Rockys speech to son”

[Traveler]

(I read and re-read The Art of War) good stuff and not triggering. It gave me a break from 'self-help'.

Wow--Rambo and The Art of War--so that's where the strength underlying your compassionate responses comes from! I read "Gates of Fire" (about the Spartan 300) is another good read to find inner strength.

[LH19]

(I read and re-read The Art of War) good stuff and not triggering. It gave me a break from 'self-help'.

Wow--Rambo and The Art of War--so that's where the strength underlying your compassionate responses comes from! I read "Gates of Fire" (about the Spartan 300) is another good read to find inner strength.

Spartans what is your profession.

Ha-ooh Ha-ooh Ha-ooh!

[SaltyDog]

I’m a believer we were put in these situations to grow. We got stagnant and complacent and the universe said if you are not going to grow I will force you to grow.

It's funny because I hate the saying "everything happens for a reason" because I don't believe that at all. I believe sh!t happens and you either deal with it or you don't. But I do like the way you look at it here, with the universe forcing you to grow.

I’ve said from my first post to you I got the sense that if you took your balls back from your Ws purse you had a chance.

I don't disagree. And as I am growing, and starting to get some of that self-respect back, I also wonder about leaving them in the purse and growing a new pair. May be taking that metaphor too far...

One thing I have noticed is I think the disrespect is at an all time high these days. Most of the WWs are in open affairs and on dating websites. They don’t even try to hide it anymore.

Since I started dealing with this and finally being more open about it with others I am amazed at how many people I know are in the same boat, or know people in the same boat. It's like an epidemic. And that's not to say women don't deserve to be happy or that men are perfect, but the lack of respect or empathy is astounding. And how easily they can justify their actions without any remorse.

Time to put your big boy pants on stop the madness.

I would be happy to help you develop a plan.

I'm listening. No guarantees, but I'm listening.

[SaltyDog]

I love this!! The veil is slipping - you are beginning to see this for what it is. Don't go backwards! Keep asking yourself - what would I tell my friend?? What would I tell my son if this was his W?? Listen to advice from people who love you and don't want you to be treated like garbage. And most of all....

Be your own friend.

I like this a lot. I've mentioned it before but one big issue I've been working on with my counselor is both forgiving and loving myself. I'm good at forgiving others and terrible at forgiving myself or giving myself the benefit of the doubt. Once you start actively trying to notice your own negative self-talk, it can be eye-opening. I have a long way to go there.

Think of other things in your life that required courage and remember who you are.

I had a picture of Sly Stalone in Rambo (when he put the red bandana on right before going to fight). I'm kind of weird but it worked for me and I've used that pic a LOT! lol Music? Quotes of strength. - Whatever you need to do to find strength and courage to move forward and stop going back to the abuse.

One thing that has helped just with my overall mindset is definitely changing my music. Turning off the sad-whoa is me-cry into your beer playlists and instead going with the get-pumped-up-and-kick-ass playlists. Or just going back to good jazz. Switching out those triggers and avoiding the victim mindset makes a big difference.

(I read and re-read The Art of War) good stuff and not triggering. It gave me a break from 'self-help'.

I started Art of War but didn't stick with it, I'll give it another go. I switched to fiction for a break and am reading The River by Peter Heller which has been a good choice. I also read The Way of the Conscious Warrior and liked it but didn't love it. A little too much focus on historical stuff vs. practical advice for men today. But still worth reading. I'm also in the middle of The WIsdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts and absolutely loving it and I am going back and re-reading Unf*ck Yourself by Gary John Bishop which I also really like. I basically watch zero TV unless it is with the boys, the rest of the time I'm reading something. Something I've always loved to do but totally gave up over the course of my marriage. Says a lot.

[97Hope]

I just bought "Gates of Fire" - I needed to GAL today so I went to 1/2 price and got that and the movie 300. LOL Time to check in and channel my inner warrior.

RE: what you gave up in your marriage. Hmmm...I was thinking about this in the car. My BFF from high school called today and had a 2x4 for me, kinda. He said that when I was in high school and for the first 10 years of my marriage I was shania twain "any man of mine" and somewhere along the way I lost that and became a doormat.

He's not wrong. I was on a freaking allowance in my M. My X made piles and piles of money (seriously, it's obscene) and I had an allowance for groceries, gas and any incidentals I wanted. I NEVER had enough for fun stuff. If I wanted something I would have to save my 'allowance'. I would do anything X wanted - I thought I was being loving and supportive - and I was to a degree - but then I became an employee. A low paid employee at that!

I tell you that to say - keep exploring who you are outside of Salty the H. Who are you as Salty the Man? GAL is an excellent way to try new things. I know it doesn't feel like it but you have freedom now! I'm not joking - it's in my thread but when X moved out I embraced the freedom. I ate yogurt and watermelon for dinner. I ate chips in bed (once. that was gross didn't do it again). I watched my chick flicks without criticism. Man I did what I wanted, when I wanted! I bought a kayak and yelled "freeeeeeeeeeedom!!" a la Braveheart in the middle of a lake.

I hate the phrase "finding yourself" because too many WAS use it to justify blowing up their family - but explore who you are as an individual - make it fun! Feelings follow actions!

And yes, MUSIC! holy heck I have to be VERY careful what I put in my brain! We should have that on the welcome thread - maybe a playlist for newcomers? Power ballads? Don't go away mad...motley Crue? lol CeeLo Green?

You sound like you are starting to notice what you think and what you tell yourself. That is fantastic!

** ummmm - get them out of her purse. A strong, confident woman won't want them in there lol

[SaltyDog]

I just bought "Gates of Fire" - I needed to GAL today so I went to 1/2 price and got that and the movie 300. LOL Time to check in and channel my inner warrior.

I'll have to check that book out. I wasn't as impressed as most were with 300 - seemed like pro-wrestling set in a period piece movie but I tend to like books better than movies anyway.

I tell you that to say - keep exploring who you are outside of Salty the H. Who are you as Salty the Man? GAL is an excellent way to try new things. I know it doesn't feel like it but you have freedom now! I'm not joking - it's in my thread but when X moved out I embraced the freedom. I ate yogurt and watermelon for dinner. I ate chips in bed (once. that was gross didn't do it again). I watched my chick flicks without criticism. Man I did what I wanted, when I wanted! I bought a kayak and yelled "freeeeeeeeeeedom!!" a la Braveheart in the middle of a lake.

Embracing that freedom is strange though, isn't it? Getting rid of years worth of always putting yourself 2nd is not an easy thing. One thing that I thought of yesterday while having a moment of anxiety and reading Unf*ck Yourself was the idea of winning and pointing yourself in the right direction to win what you consciously want vs. continuing to win at all the crap that's bringing you down. And I realized, no matter what happens, I win. Either we get our sh!t straightened out, decide to move forward and be happy together (win) or I get MY sh!t straightened out, I decide to move forward and get the freedom and opportunity to do whatever I want (win). And that was pretty empowering. And if I'm being honest, the second option with the freedom resonated more. I don't know if that is the grass is always greener optics as I have good friends with that freedom who in the past always said how much they envied me and having a family (lol) and how much being single [censored], etc. But I do think, either way I do win.

[97Hope]

And I realized, no matter what happens, I win. Either we get our sh!t straightened out, decide to move forward and be happy together (win) or I get MY sh!t straightened out, I decide to move forward and get the freedom and opportunity to do whatever I want (win). And that was pretty empowering. And if I'm being honest, the second option with the freedom resonated more. I don't know if that is the grass is always greener optics as I have good friends with that freedom who in the past always said how much they envied me and having a family (lol) and how much being single [censored], etc. But I do think, either way I do win.

I'm going to pick on you a little.....See what you did in that paragraph?

YOU decide to move forward and be happy. Period. No matter what.

YOU have freedom and opportunity NOW to do whatever you want.(and have had, despite having your **'s in her purse, that was your choice)

I think that's the point of many LBS struggles. We don't even realize that we had agency. But we did and do now.

Of course the freedom resonates more! We are all meant to be free. But we have to claim it.

- in any R - we can't be dependent on the other person. We can't wait for them to be 'ok' so that we can be ok. We control ourselves, and work on ourselves, and grow. We get strong.

You are free. You have always been. BD makes us think we aren't going to be ok without them, but the truth is we MUST be ok without them or we aren't suited to have a healthy R.

And we are so busy clinging to an R that is corrupt we don't see that being free isn't about a marriage license - it's all the work DB is about - on ourselves, so that if/when we choose to R with the WAS - we are ready. And if we choose not to - that's ok too. But we aren't clinging to an unhealthy R and feel we have no choice.

**I like 300 for entirely different reasons

[Ready2Change]

**I like 300 for entirely different reasons

After I had a signed 50/50 parenting arrangement, I moved out of the marital home, I bought a big screen tv, a PS3 and the movie 300.

I fell asleep to that movie every night. Great motivation on how to behave as a man (or woman).

[SaltyDog]

I'm going to pick on you a little.....See what you did in that paragraph?

YOU decide to move forward and be happy. Period. No matter what.

YOU have freedom and opportunity NOW to do whatever you want.(and have had, despite having your **'s in her purse, that was your choice)

I think that's the point of many LBS struggles. We don't even realize that we had agency. But we did and do now.

I get what you're saying, for sure. When I talk about freedom now though I'm more referring to non-married or single freedom. If we do some how end up getting back together, I will absolutely need more freedom and agency or it won't work. But even with that, there's still the gives and takes of being in a relationship. But if we don't get back together, that kind of freedom - the single kind - where you can wake up, hop in the car, and just drive wherever you wand to go without telling a soul or planning at all where you are going. That's a whole other kind of freedom.

BD makes us think we aren't going to be ok without them, but the truth is we MUST be ok without them or we aren't suited to have a healthy R.

I completely agree. I'm going on 6 months since BD and while I'm nowhere near where LH19 wants me to be (lol) I'm already much stronger and more OK with myself that I was. There's still a ways to go but the overwhelming sense of dread when thinking about the future is now tempered with some excitement and hope. and that's good.

[SteveLW]

BD makes us think we aren't going to be ok without them, but the truth is we MUST be ok without them or we aren't suited to have a healthy R.

I completely agree. I'm going on 6 months since BD and while I'm nowhere near where LH19 wants me to be (lol) I'm already much stronger and more OK with myself that I was. There's still a ways to go but the overwhelming sense of dread when thinking about the future is now tempered with some excitement and hope. and that's good.

One of the things that helped me was in comparing it to the death of a spouse. In both cases (spouse leaving us or death of a spouse) we don't get a choice in what happened. In both cases, obviously, our preference would be that it didn't happen. But the problem is that in the spouse leaving, we think we have some power to stop it. We don't. Where with a the death of a spouse we realize there is no going back and that we have to move forward and be okay alone. However, if we can understand that there really isn't a difference, then we realize our only choice is to move forward, learn to be ok by ourselves, and do the work necessary to get there.

[LH19]

I'm going on 6 months since BD and while I'm nowhere near where LH19 wants me to be (lol) I'm already much stronger and more OK with myself that I was.

So digitty dog I post here to help people try to avoid mistakes that I made and mistakes I see time and time again. So it's not me wanting you to be stronger I know it's very difficult. You will see I was right years down the road that I promise you. You will see you should have stood up to her and you will also see she isn't worth the agony she's putting you though. Your stomach will cringe when you think of you home taking care of the kids while she's out sleeping with other men.

This is the value of hind sight, and unfortunately for most people, you can't absorb it until you're ready. You have to learn, just like me, and that's the hardest way.

[97Hope]

That overwhelming feeling of dread about your future is awful. Early days - yes, overwhelming.

But when you get to where you face the reality of your old MR for what it is - unfaithfulness, lying whatever you are going through or have gone through - you realize that a future with that is impossible.

The truth is, we have never known the future. That hasn't changed with BD although it can feel like it.

We just know that today - it wasn't what we thought it was going to be. That's the hard part to get through.


x

[SaltyDog]

I'm going on 6 months since BD and while I'm nowhere near where LH19 wants me to be (lol) I'm already much stronger and more OK with myself that I was.

So digitty dog I post here to help people try to avoid mistakes that I made and mistakes I see time and time again. So it's not me wanting you to be stronger I know it's very difficult. You will see I was right years down the road that I promise you. You will see you should have stood up to her and you will also see she isn't worth the agony she's putting you though. Your stomach will cringe when you think of you home taking care of the kids while she's out sleeping with other men.

This is the value of hind sight, and unfortunately for most people, you can't absorb it until you're ready. You have to learn, just like me, and that's the hardest way.

I hear you and I absolutely value your advice. It has been very helpful and while I might struggle putting it all into practice, I do see where I have been able to and how it has helped.

[SaltyDog]

The truth is, we have never known the future. That hasn't changed with BD although it can feel like it.

One thing I've come across in all my reading is the idea of certainty vs uncertainty and how people (like me) will cling to something that isn't good but is certain instead of choosing something else that is uncertain but might actually be good (or better).

[LH19]

I hear you and I absolutely value your advice. It has been very helpful and while I might struggle putting it all into practice, I do see where I have been able to and how it has helped.

It's frustrating because I had hope for you when you got here. I felt your W was not completely check out. I felt if you pulled away the safety she would rethink things. Well anyway one way or another it will eventually come to an end.

As for certainty, other then death, taxes and LBS will suffer there is no certainty.

[97Hope]

One thing I've come across in all my reading is the idea of certainty vs uncertainty and how people (like me) will cling to something that isn't good but is certain instead of choosing something else that is uncertain but might actually be good (or better).

I was listening to a message where a guy was having trouble lifting heavier weights.
His trainer said "It's not the weight. It's your grip."

[SaltyDog]

I hear you and I absolutely value your advice. It has been very helpful and while I might struggle putting it all into practice, I do see where I have been able to and how it has helped.

It's frustrating because I had hope for you when you got here. I felt your W was not completely check out. I felt if you pulled away the safety she would rethink things. Well anyway one way or another it will eventually come to an end.

As for certainty, other then death, taxes and LBS will suffer there is no certainty.

You may be right and I know my suffering isn't over, but I can't help but wonder if she did rethink things back then and we got back together if I would've continued to grow like I have. I'd like to think I still would've continued, but I know me.

[LH19]

Where have you grown? What changes have you made that are about you?

[SaltyDog]

Where have you grown? What changes have you made that are about you?

I'm 3/4 of the way thru Dry January - something I never thought possible a year ago. Just the thought of going a month gave me anxiety. That is 100% for me and not anyone else. If I was doing it for someone else, I would've dropped out on day 2.

Instead of dragging myself out of bed at the last minute every morning, or sleeping past 9am on weekends I now am regularly up between 5:30 and 6, often without an alarm, and start my day with journaling, working out (before breaking the rib, although that is healing and I'm starting back in a bit), meditating, and having me time before the kids are up and the day starts.

I've stopped watching TV unless it is a movie with the kids. Otherwise I am reading. I used to love reading and I stopped because I told myself there was never time. I just didn't make time. Now I do.

i was getting back into Jiu-jitsu pretty hard before the rib.

I have taken photography up and have gotten lots of positive feedback from people.

I go on at least 1 hike a week, if not more.

I put in an application at a new job, which is scary as hell as I have a good job that pays well. It just [censored] my soul dry.

And the most important thing is I feel better about me. More confident, stronger, and a better sense of clarity. It comes and goes obviously, good days and bad, but the fact I am able to feel GOOD again on my own is huge.

I look at that list and wonder how many I would've done if we had gotten back together back in October or something. There's nothing there I couldn't have done if we were together, but would I? And now that I am doing them, they are becoming non-negotiables if we were to reconcile.

[SaltyDog]

I'll preface this post with "I know it doesn't MEAN anything" but it is one of those WTF little things that drive me nuts.

Just to level-set - no huge changes, still living separate, she came over yesterday to pick up oldest son since they both had eye appointments. Things were cordial and business-like. She commented that I looked good, I thanked her, and that was about the extent of it.

Anyway, she sends through an email this morning from our favorite nursery advertising that they have all of their bare-root fruits and veggies in stock and points out the ones we'd want. I am the gardener, and I get that this is something that in the past would be exciting for us to go and get to build out our garden, but my first thought is "why the fu*k would I go buy and plant raspberries in a garden I likely won't be tending in the future?" I don't want to plant anything or do anything around long-term improvements to this house. I didn't respond to the email.

[LH19]

I'll preface this post with "I know it doesn't MEAN anything" but it is one of those WTF little things that drive me nuts.

Why does it drive you nuts? Because of your mind reading?

Have you followed Scotty Bs thread. His kooky stbxw in July was talking about them buying a beach home. She then bought her own house in November.

In your STBXWs mine nothing has changed until SHE decides that it does. That's what happens when the LBS gives them all the power. You are literally at her mercy.

[SteveLW]

Mixed signals from a WW are typical. You did good not responding to it. If you put too much meaning into it when she does that, and react in a way informed by that too much meaning, she will quickly correct you and point out that she still doesn't want to be married. My W was in her wayward phase a relatively short period of time, and it happened no less than 2 dozen times in that period of time. She'd talk about future or long-term plans, if I mentioned that it sounded like she was changing he mind she quickly corrected me and said "nope, still want to move out and get a D." It is extremely illogical.........which is a perfect description of the WW.

[Taz]

Exactly,

My therapist told me at Monday's session. "Taz don't try to apply logic to a situation that has never followed a logical path. You'll get stuck there."

[SaltyDog]

Why does it drive you nuts? Because of your mind reading?

It drives me nuts because it makes no sense. And I get it, nothing they do makes sense or comes from a logical mindset. To me it's like her saying "hey, where should we sail on the boat this summer?" when we don't even own a boat.

[SaltyDog]

It is extremely illogical.........which is a perfect description of the WW.

And being an extremely logical person myself, it is beyond frustrating because there is no way to show them how nutty they are. I'm expecting the next email to say "Did you know the moon is made of cheese?"

[MrBrside]

The WW mindset acts on 100% emotion.. pure and simple..

There is no room for logic.

In their world 3+3=2.

Don’t even try to understand it.. it will drive you crazy..

Step back and just laugh it off..

[LH19]

It is extremely illogical.........which is a perfect description of the WW.

And being an extremely logical person myself, it is beyond frustrating because there is no way to show them how nutty they are. I'm expecting the next email to say "Did you know the moon is made of cheese?"

Who is nuttier? The nut or the one chasing the nut?

Deep thoughts by Jack Handy? lol

[97Hope]

Ugh. Salty, here is a nice tale...

AFTER BD
X bought me goats for my birthday.
X wanted my input on plans for the new barn. I helped.
X came over with fruit trees and asked where I wanted them planted. I told him.
X sent me flowers for bday, valentine's day and anniversary.
X constantly talked about what "we" were going to do with this calf, or that cow etc. etc.

I don't know if it was 'future faking', his break in reality, or what, but it drove me nucking futs!!

I had to get to the point where I said "There is no WE in divorce" but it took me 2 1/2 years. (Really.) And I never had the guts to say it to his face. I just sat there listening and hmmm...cool...wow...but inside, reminded myself that he wasn't planning a future with me. His actions said that. His words meant nothing.

Don't be like me. Good job on ignoring that email.

Just live your life and you will do great! I can be jealous of your intestinal fortitude from over here. LOL

Also - don't minimize your feelings. It's can be confusing and crazy-making if you allow it. Great that you know it "doesn't mean anything" - it means something, but the only one who knows what it means is your W - and she might not even know!!

*"I once had an uncle. We called him Uncle Bear. We called him that because sometimes he would eat one of us."
-My fave Jack Handy

[SaltyDog]

Ugh. Salty, here is a nice tale...

AFTER BD
X bought me goats for my birthday.
X wanted my input on plans for the new barn. I helped.
X came over with fruit trees and asked where I wanted them planted. I told him.
X sent me flowers for bday, valentine's day and anniversary.
X constantly talked about what "we" were going to do with this calf, or that cow etc. etc.

I don't know if it was 'future faking', his break in reality, or what, but it drove me nucking futs!!

That reminds me of Xmas - she kept saying things like "boy I spoiled you" and "what did you do to deserve all this" and all I kept thinking was "your own guilt."

Also - don't minimize your feelings. It's can be confusing and crazy-making if you allow it. Great that you know it "doesn't mean anything" - it means something, but the only one who knows what it means is your W - and she might not even know!!

That's been a struggle because I'm still learning how to deal with my feelings in a healthy way and not dwell on them vs. minimizing them by stuffing them away and fooling myself that I've dealt with them. The latter ones come back and bite me on the ass as a reminder. At this point I have a very cynical outlook on everything she says and does. We had an Amazon package delivered the other day and one of the things in it was the book "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep - Love" which is supposed to "offer a road map for building stronger, more fulfilling connections with the people they love." In the past I would see that as a sign she's trying to work on us, now I assume it's to help her on her dating quest and I move on.

[SteveLW]

Also - don't minimize your feelings. It's can be confusing and crazy-making if you allow it. Great that you know it "doesn't mean anything" - it means something, but the only one who knows what it means is your W - and she might not even know!!

That's been a struggle because I'm still learning how to deal with my feelings in a healthy way and not dwell on them vs. minimizing them by stuffing them away and fooling myself that I've dealt with them. The latter ones come back and bite me on the ass as a reminder. At this point I have a very cynical outlook on everything she says and does. We had an Amazon package delivered the other day and one of the things in it was the book "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep - Love" which is supposed to "offer a road map for building stronger, more fulfilling connections with the people they love." In the past I would see that as a sign she's trying to work on us, now I assume it's to help her on her dating quest and I move on.

This is another way in which IC can be really helpful.

[SaltyDog]

Also - don't minimize your feelings. It's can be confusing and crazy-making if you allow it. Great that you know it "doesn't mean anything" - it means something, but the only one who knows what it means is your W - and she might not even know!!

That's been a struggle because I'm still learning how to deal with my feelings in a healthy way and not dwell on them vs. minimizing them by stuffing them away and fooling myself that I've dealt with them. The latter ones come back and bite me on the ass as a reminder. At this point I have a very cynical outlook on everything she says and does. We had an Amazon package delivered the other day and one of the things in it was the book "Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep - Love" which is supposed to "offer a road map for building stronger, more fulfilling connections with the people they love." In the past I would see that as a sign she's trying to work on us, now I assume it's to help her on her dating quest and I move on.

This is another way in which IC can be really helpful.

Yeah, mine has been a lifesaver. We meet weekly on Friday afternoon and it is super helpful - come out feeling empowered (most times, not always lol) and ready to take on the world. I start losing that momentum around Wednesday. But they've been very good at providing tools to help deal with the situation. I can't imagine someone going through this without some sort of professional help.

[97Hope]

I'm so glad you have a great IC. They are worth their weight in gold!!

I love it when you get tools rather than them just listening - personally, I leave those sessions with an emotional hangover.

[Mumin]

Question on IC. How do you guys pay for it?
If I would see mine once a week now (actually got some help from work last year which is very uncommon here) I wouldn’t be able to afford food, and I make way more than average.
He’s like 400 usd per hour.

[97Hope]

Holy cow! It's $150 here (ave.) Do you have insurance?

I liked divorce care (it's faith-based) also ask around.

I can take extra jobs if I need to and I need IC. Sorry, man. That's a LOT.

[SaltyDog]

Question on IC. How do you guys pay for it?
If I would see mine once a week now (actually got some help from work last year which is very uncommon here) I wouldn’t be able to afford food, and I make way more than average.
He’s like 400 usd per hour.

Insurance. Mine is a $10 co-pay but I'm guessing my deductible just reset with the new year.

[Ginger1]

$400 an hour? Good lord! That’s insane.

Health insurance will cover that here . And without coverage, maybe $150 a session


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Another LBH (kinda) pt. 4