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Posted By: may22 Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/17/20 11:11 PM
Last Thread

Recap: Very briefly, H had a two year long distance affair, came (mostly) clean about a year ago after a lot of trickle truth but very ambivalent, she might be the love of his life, blah blah blah. We're now three months into reconciliation attempt #3 (maybe 2.5, since I don't know if we should really count the trip we took in August when he was NC with AP as a reconciliation attempt-- more like a break from hostilities). First time in Feb he said they were NC but it was more like 99% not 100% NC, she got back in touch in late May, blew up again, waffling for a couple months. We went on a family trip in August supposedly to try to begin to reconcile and he was NC with AP, but within a week of returning he was back in touch with her and wanted to S/D. I said, OK. We worked out all the basic details on finances and custody, he found an apartment, and we were working on what to tell the children (D8 and D10, who have zero idea anything is wrong). Then, H said he got to the very precipice of D, needing to pull the trigger on the apartment, and realized he can't do it, he doesn't want to D. He came clean on a number of final lies, including pulling out a box of memorabilia he had from the A and throwing everything in the garbage in front of me. That was mid-September. Wow. Feels like a long time ago.

Doing these recaps and re-reading my previous recaps is kind of an interesting exercise. I actually feel I've come a pretty long way in the last month, reading my last recap. Here's a quick inventory of where I am:

-- I believe and trust he's been NC with AP. We have 100% transparency, device passwords, all the rest. I realized yesterday looking at him on his phone that it no longer occurs to me to wonder if he is talking to her. A couple of months ago, I was still checking up on him regularly on WhatsApp to see when he was last active. I haven't done that in weeks.

-- Even though I clearly still have a lot of anger and pain to process, it feels much reduced from where I was a month ago, when it was truly overwhelming and actually frightening to me to contemplate. I was scared it would overwhelm me like a raging forest fire. Now I know I can let it come and let it out (love that punching bag) and it will pass. I also feel like I've developed healthier ways of dealing with it that I had before. So, progress here, even though I know I still have a ways to go.

-- IC has been going well, I think for both of us. He said to me the other day that he hasn't talked to IC about how he feels about AP for a month at least and he's been focused on questions of his identity (why he did what he did) and our R. I've also moved past spending every moment of my weekly IC call on my feelings around H and the A, and the last couple of calls have been focusing on some work-related stuff as well. So, that feels like progress-- IC said it seemed as though the "in crisis" mode was ending. We're in a bit of a hiatus from IC because of Christmas and an insurance snag. We have talked about MC. I think I'm ready for it. He suggested it again the other day. Previously, I did not want to go until I felt H was over AP as I have a boundary around hearing how he feels/felt about her. I'm waiting to see if H does any legwork on this on his own.

-- I feel a lot less anxiety about him rekindling the A. I'm really not worried about it. Whether that is because I feel that it is over in a way I hadn't before, or because if he does it again I have a plan, I'll execute, and I won't look back-- and there are definitely some attractions to life without worrying about how to reconcile and piece with a H who cheated-- I'm not sure. But that anxiety has abated.

-- The way H talks about the A has changed, a lot. He takes responsibility for what he did without trying to justify it immediately with the SSM (though if we talk about it long enough, we always get there eventually). He has apologized sincerely and repeatedly for hurting me, for lying, for the betrayal. I'm sitting with this because for whatever reason it doesn't feel like enough, to me. I have this fantasy of him saying it was all a horrible mistake, he only thought he was in love with her but it was just a manifestation of his own pain around the SSM, or whatever. I guess this is probably on me to figure out why what I'm hearing isn't good enough, at least isn't for me where I am right now. He said the other day that he didn't think he was "in love" with her anymore and that he was getting over her, but he is refraining from saying he's 100% over her, doesn't give a flying F about her, or whatever else I'd love to hear. Even so, I will say that this has changed a lot from three months ago. Progress, I guess, though feels sad and gross to me to have to even be measuring how attached your spouse is to another woman.

-- I have wanted to have a post-nup signed that will enshrine the agreements we made back in September for what would happen if we Ded, around finances, the house, and the kids. I would like to still have this signed for a couple of reasons-- one because I have a fear that some of the generosity was motivated by guilt and the A, and two because I want everything to be ready to go if he gets back in touch with her (or anything else happens that triggers me to walk). It feels to me somewhat of an insurance policy for deciding to try this last time to work it out rather than walk ("third time's a charm!" instead of "three strikes, you're out!") He agreed to this early on, though when it has come up since he's been reluctant. We talked about it a couple days ago and he said he still feels like it is going backwards from his perspective, but if it will make me feel better he is willing to do it.

Last Christmas, I was pretty positive that this would be the last holiday as a family. The big final BD-- the night where we were talking about him moving into the basement for three months and what that would look like, and I said something along the lines of "if you F her we are done for good" and he said "May I've been Fing her for two years"-- previously he'd only admitted to an EA that was half the length of time-- was December 30. So there are things that feel really odd and sad in prepping for Christmas and all the rest with the backdrop of what last year was like.

I've been working very hard on focusing on myself, letting go of any illusion of control over things which are not in my lane. Thinking a lot less about what is or is not going on in H's head and redirecting that energy into myself and my kids. I feel this has mostly been a positive exercise for me, though letting go is something I have to keep doing over and over-- it isn't a one-and-done for me. And, I think I also need to watch myself here, to be sure I am not letting my behavior slide from the tranquil focused-on-me detachment it is in my head into a kind of mean, IDGAF-about-you space.

Last night, we took the kids to see Christmas lights as a surprise and got ice cream. We all had a ball. It occurred to me at some point that after our last conversation, I see him for the very first time as a partner in this whole process of R. It was surprising to me, as that was one of the things I wanted more than anything in the beginning of all this mess but I never ever felt I had. It was more that we were two lonely individuals grasping our way in maybe the same direction, maybe not. I'm not sure what specifically triggered this shift in my perspective, or how valid it is. But it feels different. We will see.

Gerda, LH, Blu, OG-- I'll respond to your posts separately.

xx M
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/18/20 03:39 PM

Oh May, this warms my heart.

Originally Posted by may22
Last night, we took the kids to see Christmas lights as a surprise and got ice cream. We all had a ball. It occurred to me at some point that after our last conversation, I see him for the very first time as a partner in this whole process of R. It was surprising to me, as that was one of the things I wanted more than anything in the beginning of all this mess but I never ever felt I had. It was more that we were two lonely individuals grasping our way in maybe the same direction, maybe not. I'm not sure what specifically triggered this shift in my perspective, or how valid it is. But it feels different. We will see.


Honestly in those months after the OW breakup and before H asked to come back into the MBR and told me he loved me that's what it felt. Like two people trying to get a foothold as roommates and co-parents and maybe we were going the same direction, maybe we weren't. And honestly I felt things take a turn after our anniversary. I think I had spent so much time convincing myself that he was going to walk no matter what that I had ignored what was happening until July. But looking back I knew. Things just felt different. He became more reluctant to leave the bed after our weird no strings whoopie. Even the whoopie was different, but how he was around the family just felt all around different. It felt like he was happy with us. That he enjoyed being dad and husband even if he was half in and half out, and that was the first time it really felt like that in a long time. Like he wasn't trying to mentally or physically escape from us. That he wanted to be in this family, and he wanted to be in it with me. And that I really did want to try to be that family again. Not the 3 plus 1 we had been living for a long time.

Thinking of you xoxoxo
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/19/20 02:39 AM
Thanks WF... it feels different. Good, different. I'm skeptical though. I want to sit with this for a few weeks and see if I still feel like this come January.

I told him from the very beginning that this was what I wanted, to feel like we were partners in this moving forward. I said to him yesterday, hey. I feel like we're on the same side on this for the first time, that we're partners. He gave me a strange look and said thanks for getting on board. He said he'd felt like we were partners in this this whole last time around. Not quite sure what to do with that, if it's true or if he's fooling himself. Sitting with this.

Originally Posted by LH19
So I have been thinking about your situation and am going to throw this out there. Is it possible the that you were is this fight to keep your family together and once you succeed you realized that part of the package isn’t really all that great after all?

Yes. of course.

I think Oceangirl talked about on her thread feeling like there was no good choice? Just $hitty and $hitttier? I have definitely felt that. I mean, what I really wanted, which is an intact family with an H who didn't cheat on me, is no longer on offer. No matter what happens, that will always be the truth.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/19/20 05:03 AM
Hi May,

Originally Posted by May
I told him from the very beginning that this was what I wanted, to feel like we were partners in this moving forward. I said to him yesterday, hey. I feel like we're on the same side on this for the first time

I'm glad you have this going into the holidays! It is so rewarding to feel like partners.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/19/20 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Thanks WF... it feels different. Good, different. I'm skeptical though. I want to sit with this for a few weeks and see if I still feel like this come January.

I told him from the very beginning that this was what I wanted, to feel like we were partners in this moving forward. I said to him yesterday, hey. I feel like we're on the same side on this for the first time, that we're partners. He gave me a strange look and said thanks for getting on board. He said he'd felt like we were partners in this this whole last time around. Not quite sure what to do with that, if it's true or if he's fooling himself. Sitting with this.

Originally Posted by LH19
So I have been thinking about your situation and am going to throw this out there. Is it possible the that you were is this fight to keep your family together and once you succeed you realized that part of the package isn’t really all that great after all?

Yes. of course.

I think Oceangirl talked about on her thread feeling like there was no good choice? Just $hitty and $hitttier? I have definitely felt that. I mean, what I really wanted, which is an intact family with an H who didn't cheat on me, is no longer on offer. No matter what happens, that will always be the truth.

I meant him more as a the person he is now and not what he did in the past.
Posted By: Sage4 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/19/20 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by may22
Last night, we took the kids to see Christmas lights as a surprise and got ice cream. We all had a ball.


I had to start here, because you inspired me! The kids asked if we could go look at Christmas lights last night. I was tired, we just got home from a week-long trip, it was getting close to bedtime. Despite my desire to stay home and do an early bedtime, I said yes. We packed up hot cocoa in to-go cups and went for a drive. It was cozy in the car, people have put so much effort into their light displays this year and the best part was that the kids and I had lots and lots of deep conversations about H, our current situation and how they feel and what they need. We came home and no one wanted to get out of the car. It felt like a cocoon of goodness, safety, love, understanding. But I wouldn't have gone if I hadn't of read this post just before we left! So thank you, May! xx

Originally Posted by may22
I told him from the very beginning that this was what I wanted, to feel like we were partners in this moving forward. I said to him yesterday, hey. I feel like we're on the same side on this for the first time, that we're partners. He gave me a strange look and said thanks for getting on board. He said he'd felt like we were partners in this this whole last time around. Not quite sure what to do with that, if it's true or if he's fooling himself. Sitting with this.


This interaction stood out to me as I am learning more about narratives and how we can only control our own narratives. It is always a little shocking when we discover someone (close to us) has such a different view of the same experience. It is not our role to try and change someone's narrative, but just to listen and try to understand it as best we can. And maybe in that quiet-listening we start to better understand past behaviors, actions and conversations a little better.

Does it matter if it's true or not? It's his narrative and his alone.

Your comment here compliments this idea:

Originally Posted by may22
I've been working very hard on focusing on myself, letting go of any illusion of control over things which are not in my lane. Thinking a lot less about what is or is not going on in H's head and redirecting that energy into myself and my kids. I feel this has mostly been a positive exercise for me, though letting go is something I have to keep doing over and over-- it isn't a one-and-done for me. And, I think I also need to watch myself here, to be sure I am not letting my behavior slide from the tranquil focused-on-me detachment it is in my head into a kind of mean, IDGAF-about-you space.


I really loved your update, you can see how far you have come from the beginning of your sitch to today. Hope you're having a great weekend!

xx
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/19/20 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by may22
I mean, what I really wanted, which is an intact family with an H who didn't cheat on me, is no longer on offer. No matter what happens, that will always be the truth.


Acceptance is hard isn't it May, really hard. There is a famous quote out there that helps me deal with acceptance, think it might have been Churchill, but I might be wrong.

"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from"
Posted By: tom_l Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/20/20 04:24 AM
Originally Posted by may22
I told him from the very beginning that this was what I wanted, to feel like we were partners in this moving forward. I said to him yesterday, hey. I feel like we're on the same side on this for the first time, that we're partners. He gave me a strange look and said thanks for getting on board. He said he'd felt like we were partners in this this whole last time around. Not quite sure what to do with that, if it's true or if he's fooling himself. Sitting with this.

May, I know this is so painful for you ... but my thought when I read this is, at least there's a chance. I never got one. So bravo to you for keeping this option open.

Originally Posted by may22
I mean, what I really wanted, which is an intact family with an H who didn't cheat on me, is no longer on offer. No matter what happens, that will always be the truth.

Sigh. In this regard we have similar wistful desires. All I wanted was to keep my family intact too, "til death do us part."
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/20/20 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by Gerda
I think you need to commit to one side of one fence for a time. And it seems like you want to keep the marriage.

So my advice would be to declare a moratorium on R talk and just do IC. Make an actual rule not to do that and just to have fun for a while.

Gerda, I follow along your story on the MLC board and find you such a light. And what you just posted on Sage's thread... wow. I was utterly blown away.

I've been chewing on what your posted to me for a few days and wanted to respond.

On this one-- you're right in that I'm choosing to try and stay married. I've had a difficult time this fall doing this, partially because when we tried in the spring, before AP got back in touch with H (she reached out to let him know she was moving on, this was his very very final chance (it wasn't), btw she slept with someone and felt guilty about it so had to tell him) I was able to approach reconciliation with an open heart and optimism and then felt such whiplash when it all fell back apart.

This time... I feel burned from the last time. Even though so many things are different now than they were in the spring, I still am having a hard time committing on my end. It is like I'm straddling two different paths, like two tracks in the dirt, and for a few months it was OK to have one foot in one tread and one foot in the other. But they're starting to deviate, and I am starting to feel like I can't keep walking both. I have to choose, and I'm choosing the M path, but so scared to let go of the other.

We have basically done what you're suggesting, without naming it. I'm wondering about suggesting that we do set aside time to talk, but not about the A or our R-- just to talk about other things, important things, like work and life and all the rest. (Thinking of Yail's advice to drop the labels and be curious about H as a human being, and also see if he has any curiosity about me beyond the labels, Blu.) I feel like I need SOME reassurance in some way that we aren't just going to sweep this under the rug and go back to what we were. I do not want that. But what he wants is to work on rebuilding our emotional connection and perhaps this can be done in some ways, now, while we each still work on our own issues.

Originally Posted by Gerda
When the thoughts of the AP come your way, remember that they are from the darkness. They are a very real wound but your H is not going to be able to heal that wound. I don't know how you heal that wound without God, but if you don't have a faith life, I think you just have to keep giving over that pain to time and the universe. Expecting that your H will be able to say or do the right thing to heal your wound is a pipe dream. You can only hope that you build a new history with him.

I know this, intellectually. I think I even know it in my heart. I want so badly to evict her from my head. It is getting better, a lot better, but she still creeps in, sometimes, and I want to look at him and somehow dump all my pain onto him, because he did this, and how could he, to me, etc etc. I have been able to control that impulse now too, but it still does come. Telling myself to give it over to time and the universe-- that is difficult for me, because I am a checklist person and I want to DO something to fix this.

I think this part, giving over control or the illusion of control, to streeeeetttch out my timeline-- this is my biggest lesson in all of this. One I need to keep teaching myself. And, validating to myself in the moment that these are real wounds (as much as my H would wish they were not) that these feelings come from darkness, and to give them back-- that helps.

I'm not religious, but my H was. Up until the A he went to mass every single weekend as he had his entire life. He's framed his discomfort with the Church around issues like marriage equality, but I am certain that the fact that he carries a mortal sin has something to do with his discomfort. I'm not sure what he will do about this. He doesn't have a strong connection to the priest at our church and told me if he does go to confession at some point, it won't be with him. And his father is a deacon and parents are vvv religious (his father has decided that H should take this opportunity to convert me) and as my H is also having a lot of difficulties in his relationship with his father right now, I think the whole issue of religion has gotten tied up in that relationship for him as well. Anyway, it does make me feel a bit sorry for him, that his faith is not something he's able to lean on right now.

Originally Posted by Gerda
If you don't trust him, you can't think he can fix that. He can destroy your trust further but only you can decide to trust again. In faith world we say that we don't have to trust the straying spouse because we trust God. In a secular sense I would say that this means making peace with NOT trusting him and knowing that you will be okay no matter what he does, and deciding if you want to hang out with this guy and go on dates and enjoy the kids together and then COMMIT to that and keep your doubts and fears and the rest between you and your journal, your IC and a daily hike into the hills overlooking the sea where you literally talk out loud the entire time and give all that pain away.

I do think that keeping my own healing in my lane and focusing on me is really the only way to go, right now. I do feel a sense of shared partnership with him that is new, but I'm not sure quite yet if I want to trust it. I feel much less worried about him getting back with AP, but not sure if that is because I truly sense it is unlikely now for a variety of reasons or if I also know I'll be just fine if it happens. (But part of me is worried about NOT being just fine if it happens again if I continue down this path. Is this the part where I just need to let go, to trust in God and the universe that I will be okay?)

Originally Posted by Gerda
I used to imagine murdering the AP. I hated her so much. I didn't get rid of that feeling. I just kept asking God to heal it. I think he did, a little, but they also I think broke up, and my H became so monstrous that I can't ever R with him again so I almost feel sorry for any woman who would get sucked into his vortex. But I do pray for him to be healed, and I wonder if you can just keep giving that responsibility for fixing your H and for healing your very real, very deep, very painful wound to the universe. It's too big for you, for any of us. I don't know if you saw this in my thread but a priest once told me that the pain I felt should not scare me, the way that when you have a broken arm and it throbs, you don't think it is breaking again. You know it's already broken, and the pain is coming from that already broken place. This helps me a lot to deal with my pain and not expect that any human being can fix it for me. It just has to heal.

This helps, a lot.

Thank you, Gerda. Your words have given me a lot of strength.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/20/20 09:33 AM
Sage!! I'm so glad you went out to look at Christmas lights with your kids and it makes me so happy to think that I maybe had a little tiny hand in that joy.

One of the things I did early on in my sitch and I've held onto-- even sometimes need to remind myself to do it, too-- is to be more spontaneous. Say yes. I found I was so used to saying no, especially to the kids, that it was just habitual, almost. No, we have to get home and do homework. No, tonight's a school night. No, mommy had a long day at work and is tired. I started saying YES. If I couldn't think of a real reason to say no, I just said YES. In fact, have I ever told you about the day of yes? H went on a business trip in January and the girls and I did a staycation at a super fancy hotel (we'd won two nights in a silent auction). The hotel room had two bedrooms and a giant beautiful bathtub and all you could see out the windows was ocean. I told them we could have one full day of yes, when I would say yes to anything they asked. They didn't ask for anything unreasonable so it was easy-- but we lounged around in bathrobes and they took bubble baths and we watched movies and ate sugar cereal and I went in the pool every time they asked. Oh, it was so fun. (Pretty much it got down to what they wanted was my undivided attention and as much screen time as possible.)

Anyway, I just was glad to hear that you went and had fun. I feel like one of the things I lost over the past decade whether because of motherhood or work or whatever was my sense of spontaneity. Everything had to be planned or it didn't fit... and I wasn't always like that. (I mean I was sort of like that, but not to the extreme place it went.) So recapturing that ability to throw my plans out the door and delight in the moments is a gift.

In terms of my H's narrative... I hear you. I just am not totally sure he means it in the same way that I do. I think I'll just let it be, though, as you suggest. What he means by it, how it compares to how I think about it-- nothing to be done about it anyway, though. I think I'm just going to note it, as well as my own feelings on the subject, and revisit in January to see what it feels like then.

I have some thoughts to post on your thread but it is getting late! Maybe tomorrow! xx M
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/20/20 09:46 AM
OnlyBent, Tom, thanks for the thoughts-- it is good to hear from you. smile Bent, I like that quote!

Originally Posted by LH19
I meant him more as a the person he is now and not what he did in the past.

I don't think I'm quite ready to make this determination yet, TBH. What he did in the past is still so raw to me and unlike what I thought he was capable of that I'm recalibrating all of that. And, he is too-- I don't know how he'll end up reconciling his own image of himself with his behavior. That's his work, though, not mine, and I feel like I'll see how that goes and where he ends up.

Outside of the A, though, and all that surrounds that-- if i didn't know about the A (and if I was still in the SSM mindset) I'd be in heaven. He's a way more engaged and present father. Does far more around the house. Kinder, more considerate, more thoughtful than he had been in years. Far more empathetic towards others (though I really haven't felt that lens turn towards me), acknowledging and assessing his privilege for the first time in his life. Much better at communicating how he feels if he's upset rather than just taking it out on the nearest person (usually me). I mean, the spoon incident is something that five years ago was total par for the course. Now, it is unusual. And still the smart and funny man I married. The only thing he used to do that I miss is the sweet and romantic gestures. Those are missing.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/20/20 10:27 AM
oh LH, just to add-- those are his good qualities. They do exist. But they don't erase the other stuff-- just how self-centered, entitled, and weak a man needs to be in order to have done what he did. Maybe he was hurting b/c of the SSM and having some sort of mini MLC, which is what he's said to me. And I am actually pretty curious to see how he navigates the path of reconciling his own self-image and identity with that of a person who had a 2 plus year affair.

He isn't the kind of person who likes to admit he's done anything wrong, and the other significant major life events that have happened to him were things that happened to him, not things he caused himself (combat injury and stroke). He's a big believer in post-traumatic growth and truly believes that those experiences, especially the first, changed his life for the better because of how he dealt with them. He has said to me he's not sure he can ever consider the A to be 100 percent wrong because his psyche isn't built that way, he needs to be able to latch onto some positive outcomes from it, and points to these other experiences as examples. I think this one is different because he caused it himself, and because there was collateral damage (me, AP, potentially the children). Again, not my work, but obviously I have a vested interest in understanding how he ends up processing all of this-- if he does-- and if it means on the other side he's capable of being a better partner who doesn't cheat or lie.

I don't want to forget that side too as it is just as much of the truth of who he is as the positive side.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/20/20 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by may22

I don't think I'm quite ready to make this determination yet, TBH. What he did in the past is still so raw to me and unlike what I thought he was capable of that I'm recalibrating all of that. And, he is too-- I don't know how he'll end up reconciling his own image of himself with his behavior. That's his work, though, not mine, and I feel like I'll see how that goes and where he ends up.
.

I love love love this response! Answers like this is why I know you're going to be okay, May! I love that you're not trying to shortcut this or smooth over it. We tell LBSs all the time "you'll know they are back and ready to work on the marriage when their behavior is consistent over a long period of time! When pressed I usually say at least 6 months to a year. But maybe longer. It really depends on the couple, the situation and how egregious the actions were. I believe that infidelity causes emotional trauma, and that most cheated on spouses suffer from some form of PTSD to varying degrees.

And I like that you recognize that your still need time and he still has worn new has to do! That's awesome!!

I would highly suggest you lead by example and get back into IC. Work through your trauma. Maybe he'll see the necessity of his own IC, and eventually MC.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/21/20 09:45 AM
Wow, Steve! I feel like I just got a gold star smile

In the new year, if our regular IC doesn't straighten out the insurance situation, I will DEFINITELY find someone new. I actually am feeling it might be healthy to find a different IC anyway. p

In/re the trauma... I definitely agree and my IC says it all the time to me, pointing out the trauma and the trauma response. But, using the word "trauma" really triggers my H, who clearly thinks it is going a bit overboard and what I have experienced/am experiencing is not anything close to PTSD. This bothers me. I feel he is minimizing what he did. His traumatic experiences were quite different (primary being military helicopter crash) and part of me wants him to understand that what happened to me wasn't all that different in terms of how it robbed me of emotional safety and tore up my life-- and wants to continue pushing the word "trauma." The other half of me doesn't really GAF at the moment what he thinks or doesn't think so no skin off my back to stop using the word around him. Thoughts?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/21/20 10:19 AM
May,

I think this is been part of the problem from the get go. You both want one another to be and act like someone that you not and in the mean time you both suffer.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/21/20 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by may22
Wow, Steve! I feel like I just got a gold star smile

In the new year, if our regular IC doesn't straighten out the insurance situation, I will DEFINITELY find someone new. I actually am feeling it might be healthy to find a different IC anyway. p

In/re the trauma... I definitely agree and my IC says it all the time to me, pointing out the trauma and the trauma response. But, using the word "trauma" really triggers my H, who clearly thinks it is going a bit overboard and what I have experienced/am experiencing is not anything close to PTSD. This bothers me. I feel he is minimizing what he did. His traumatic experiences were quite different (primary being military helicopter crash) and part of me wants him to understand that what happened to me wasn't all that different in terms of how it robbed me of emotional safety and tore up my life-- and wants to continue pushing the word "trauma." The other half of me doesn't really GAF at the moment what he thinks or doesn't think so no skin off my back to stop using the word around him. Thoughts?


I think what he is doing is a typical defense mechanism. I know in my sitch, leading to my W's EA, I had become and insufferable jerk. Isolated, closed off, unavailable. When I was home from work (I worked a lot) and came out of our MBR (I spent most of my waking time in there), it was to criticize, complain, and basically be a complete putz. When my W used the word "abuse" it triggered me. I never touched. Never ever have I laid a finger on her. But looking back I cannot deny I had become emotionally and verbally abusive. My mind wouldn't let me go there. I wasn't that bad. I provided for her, did most of the housework, so what if I was critical and withheld any emotional support from her?

But in the days following BD 2017 I realized that her accusation had merit. I read an anti-D expert online and he said "If you are verbally abusive and withhold emotional support from your W, then stop doing that immediately!" It was eye-opening to me. I can honestly say I am a much better person now 3 years later, a better husband and a better father. But it took me getting over my defensiveness, and getting into IC, to understand that.

Victims of infidelity suffer from PTSD, I have no doubt about that. I've witnessed it first-hand, and I've seen it in posters here. That is why the posters that refuse to get into IC tend to try to find solace in the wrong things. Drinking, drugs (both recreational and prescription). the affection of others, or unattached sex. All of that is a band-aid on a missing limb. So yes, make it a priority in the new year to get into IC and work through your trauma. And make it a requirement for staying with your H that he does the same. (Note, this isn't trying to control him, it is simply making a boundary. "If he isn't in IC by July 1st, then I will go and file for D." Don't tell him what the consequence or timing is, just tell him that in order for this to work he needs to get into IC.)
Posted By: tom_l Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/21/20 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by may22

I know this, intellectually. I think I even know it in my heart. I want so badly to evict her from my head. It is getting better, a lot better, but she still creeps in, sometimes, and I want to look at him and somehow dump all my pain onto him, because he did this, and how could he, to me, etc etc.


May, I will say this, that overcoming those emotions is really admirable. Bravo again.

Musing about this, I would say that if my ex had had an affair in the first couple years of our marriage, I would have burned with anger and jealousy. The thought of her with another man would be devastating. But ... after she walked out in 2019, many people said there must have been either another man or an EA. Even had there been another man, I wouldn't have burned with jealousy or anger. The thought of she and another man naked in a bed meant nothing. I would have willingly taken her back as long as it was over and she was truly contrite, and could prove to me it was a one-time thing.

Why am I mentioning this? Perhaps its because as we get older, we get a little wiser about weakness, about human frailty, about bad decisions and betrayal. Maybe we are more willing to see inside ourselves and wonder how close we had been, at one time or another, from making the same mistakes. I don't know. I have some friends who say their wives are with them "til death do us part" unless they touch another woman -- then the vows are worthless. I just can't be that categorical about it. Life is less black and white, there is a lot of grey. It doesn't mean that you lose your morals or your notions of right or wrong, I think it just means we are more forgiving. And understanding.


Originally Posted by may22

Up until the A he went to mass every single weekend as he had his entire life ... He doesn't have a strong connection to the priest at our church and told me if he does go to confession at some point, it won't be with him. And his father is a deacon and parents are vvv religious (his father has decided that H should take this opportunity to convert me) and as my H is also having a lot of difficulties in his relationship with his father right now, I think the whole issue of religion has gotten tied up in that relationship for him as well. Anyway, it does make me feel a bit sorry for him, that his faith is not something he's able to lean on right now.


A thought here. If he is truly contrite, and wants to change his ways, he should not be ashamed to confess it to his priest. Or to talk about it with the priest outside of confession. Because trying to maintain a level of anonymity means you're not being open about your failure and your intention to not fail like that again. AA works because people are open to others who hold them accountable. Consider whether you ask H, eventually, that for you to take him back he needs to be open with the priest about what he did, and have the priest or another group of men hold him accountable.
Posted By: Oceangl Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/23/20 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by may22
oh LH, just to add-- those are his good qualities. They do exist. But they don't erase the other stuff-- just how self-centered, entitled, and weak a man needs to be in order to have done what he did. Maybe he was hurting b/c of the SSM and having some sort of mini MLC, which is what he's said to me. And I am actually pretty curious to see how he navigates the path of reconciling his own self-image and identity with that of a person who had a 2 plus year affair.

He isn't the kind of person who likes to admit he's done anything wrong, and the other significant major life events that have happened to him were things that happened to him, not things he caused himself (combat injury and stroke). He's a big believer in post-traumatic growth and truly believes that those experiences, especially the first, changed his life for the better because of how he dealt with them. He has said to me he's not sure he can ever consider the A to be 100 percent wrong because his psyche isn't built that way, he needs to be able to latch onto some positive outcomes from it, and points to these other experiences as examples. I think this one is different because he caused it himself, and because there was collateral damage (me, AP, potentially the children). Again, not my work, but obviously I have a vested interest in understanding how he ends up processing all of this-- if he does-- and if it means on the other side he's capable of being a better partner who doesn't cheat or lie.

I don't want to forget that side too as it is just as much of the truth of who he is as the positive side.


I really understand what you're saying here as I have been observing this with my H as well. I had a good but emotionally hard session with my IC today. He has worked with my H a lot so can give a lot of observations. But he talked about how H just can't reconcile the fact that he was involved in a 2 plus year affair. He has great shame over it, but he also handles it but shutting down emotions instead of working through it. We talked about how this is his work, and I cant fix it or do it for him. He will choose to do it or not. Accepting that has give me some relief. Sad relief, but I don't have to feel like such a failure and like there is still something else I can try or do.

So I think this happens for many men. How many or why, I don't know. But their inability to face that shame and work through it and heal makes it almost impossible for a relationship to keep going it seems. I think this can also be because we - the ones they hurt - represent that shame and baggage every time they look at us. My H wants to see himself as a good man. And a good man in his mind (and in most minds) wouldn't do this. He can't seem to get past it. But just like your H, if there's anything in his life hard that he didn't cause he can handle that and work through it fine. If I have wept in the past due to this, he is a stone and disappears. If i were to cry for any other reason he is there for me. What do you do with all that? I guess that's what we're trying to figure out. You can lead a horse to water (therapy, books, programs, etc) but you can't make them drink. The problem is, it doesn't just affect them. Not sure if this post makes sense to anyone but me!
Posted By: tom_l Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/24/20 05:41 PM
Originally Posted by Oceangl

He has great shame over it, but he also handles it but shutting down emotions instead of working through it. We talked about how this is his work, and I cant fix it or do it for him. He will choose to do it or not. Accepting that has give me some relief. Sad relief, but I don't have to feel like such a failure and like there is still something else I can try or do.

So I think this happens for many men ... But their inability to face that shame and work through it and heal makes it almost impossible for a relationship to keep going it seems.

It makes sense to me! And while this is not my situation I know of a number of situations like this. I've been in men's groups for over 20 years and every year we are talking about multiple cases of infidelity that are destroying a marriage.

Michele's DB talks this through, a lot, and the advice is awesome. But from my perspective, the worst thing a guy can do it clam up, go into denial, and not accept his failing. Sometimes the best way to turn him around it to join him at the hip with another man who failed! Just like AA.

He must also be candid about his failings. He can't confess them in secret, anonymously, to a priest in another town.

I have a friend named Larry who did this to his wife. He was in his late 50s, very handsome, a small company CEO, and a magnet to younger women. He had a couple affairs, which were ultimately found out. He was sincerely sorry, he had so much to lose, and among all the things he did, he went public. He shocked our men's group when, at a large meeting, he openly mentioned what he did. He asked all these men who held him in high esteem to keep him accountable. He saved his marriage. Larry and his wife made it through this issue and it's been 20 years. I've never forgotten that speech he made, to a group of 100 men, in public. As he relayed his failings, you could hear a pin drop.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/24/20 05:44 PM
Hmmmm. Do you think he was truly sorry? Or just sorry he got caught, especially since he “had a lot to lose?” Do you think if he hadn’t gotten caught, he would have continued?
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/24/20 07:46 PM
Steve, I think you're right about the defense mechanism. I have been thinking a bit though about what it takes to truly change. For the LBS, the BD can be the catalyst for change-- something big enough that rocks you to your core and allows you to examine your own behavior and beliefs in a way that you normally wouldn't be able to do. For you, being able to drop the defensiveness and realize how you were treating your wife and daughter was in fact abusive is enormous. (BTW, I really admire how you've worked on your R with your daughter-- that is really wonderful.)

For the WS, the conventional wisdom seems to be he/she has to hit rock bottom to have that same impetus to change, the A has to fizzle out and they see for themselves what they've lost, etc.

Ginger, I wonder if in that case, in terms of future behavior and change, it doesn't matter that much if the impetus to change and the realization of what he could lose was triggered by being caught, or came up of his own conscience? It seems like all internal work to me, that might be easier to do if triggered by a major external impact, like a BD for the LBS or for the WS, either hitting rock bottom or realizing in a flash at discovery what they've really put at risk. In my H's case, he confessed at every trickle truth step on his own. I never would have known of her existence if he hadn't told me. I knew he was lying on a couple of business trips and had seen her when he told me he hadn't, but I didn't confront him, just tucked away that knowledge. So he decided of his own free will he didn't want to live a double life anymore (though didn't know which life he wanted to choose)--- but the fact that he drove this himself vs getting caught and being sorry he was caught-- I don't really think he's any more remorseful because he told me on his own. IDK. It's hard to know. It seems like a really personal path that they may or may not walk, and the gravity of their situation-- the WS's equivalent of a BD, though it probably doesn't come all at once like a BD, though the realization of it may-- probably influences the likelihood of them doing the work.

Tom, I have no doubt that my H is not truly contrite. He is absolutely wrestling with guilt over his behavior and trying to figure out how to connect his image of himself as a good person with what he did. But he's not wholly remorseful at the moment. In my book anyway.

I also think none of us really know how we would respond in the moment when things actually happen. I never in a million years would have thought I'd still be here with a cheating H. My h didn't think so either. Maybe it is getting older and seeing things less black and white. Knowing that we are all capable of making grievous mistakes and hurting other people. Being a parent and shifting my primary focus to my children was a big, big part of this for me. But things are never as simple as they seem from the outside, I think.

OG, I know exactly what you mean. If I put myself in their shoes.... dang, that is haaaaard work. My H has said that part of the reason he kept the A going and was so driven to continue the R with her is that he felt like if it turned out it was just a fantasy or he decided to end it and stay with me, that it would have meant that all those decisions he made to start and continue the A were wrong. That he hurt all these people for nothing. That, paradoxically, kept him in the A, even though continuing it was hurting more people and had the potential to impact the kids as well, because if he could convince himself it was meant to be with her, that somehow absolved him of the gravity of his actions. That it was somehow beyond his control. True Love cannot be denied, etc.

He also said that he thought it would be easier to forgive himself if he ended up with AP than if he stayed with me. Just a bit of a window into his tortured head, trying to knit together his understanding of himself as a person given his behavior. He (thought he) had it all figured out in his head for how to handle it if he left.

My H also describes the decision to stay as kind of a flash of understanding, knowing that he was on the very precipice of D and all he had to do was accept the apartment and we were done. And in that moment, knowing every obstacle was out of his way, he realized it wasn't what he wanted after all. (Ugh, even typing this makes the sheer selfishness and entitlement of his behavior grossly obvious to me.) Anyway, now he has the new work to do of figuring out how to reconcile his decision to stay with the fact he had an A in the first place, and for so long. And, like you, it is his work to do, or not. (And we have enough to worry about with our own healing and our kids, anyway!)

In my case, my H is good at compartmentalizing so I know that most of the time, he doesn't feel that shame and guilt from looking at me. We're able to have a good and fun relationship. But when I remember something and my demeanor changes and he realizes why, that is when he gets a wave of shame and guilt and wants to just shut down, rewind a few minutes to where we were. It has taken me time (and still a WIP) to continually work on letting go of any expectations for how he should/will behave in those moments. My healing is on me. I love how you're looking at Christmas this year and am taking inspiration from it. I think this might be my last with the oldest still believing and I want to make the most of it. H made gingerbread cookies last night for the kids to decorate today, all the presents are wrapped, running to whole foods for one last grocery trip and then will settle down to enjoy.

Merry Christmas, everyone! xx
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/25/20 12:10 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Steve, I think you're right about the defense mechanism. I have been thinking a bit though about what it takes to truly change. For the LBS, the BD can be the catalyst for change-- something big enough that rocks you to your core and allows you to examine your own behavior and beliefs in a way that you normally wouldn't be able to do. For you, being able to drop the defensiveness and realize how you were treating your wife and daughter was in fact abusive is enormous. (BTW, I really admire how you've worked on your R with your daughter-- that is really wonderful.)



Thanks. It still stings for me to think about it in that term, abuse. I'm deeply ashamed. In IC my C pointed out that I was parently to my W. And a vet here called me on treating my W like a child instead of a partner when I first posted here. My IC was very eye -opening to me about how I was perceived by both my W and D. The interesting part is I'm so much happier not being theguy I was! But it took IC for me to realize that I had been guilty of verbal and emotional abuse. Until then I was very defensive about it.
Posted By: cardinal Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 12/25/20 02:20 AM
Still reading, may, still amazed (but not surprised) by your growth and all the strength you’ve gathered. I was just remembering how I started posting here for the first time last December, and I was thinking of you as I stashed H’s ornaments in a separate box as I was decorating the tree this year. I love that you’re able to be present and savor the moments of what may be the last year of Santa for your D (and even after that, there is still all kinds of magic to be found this time of year, and you’ll create that together too). Enjoy those cookies, and Merry Christmas!
Posted By: Gerda Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/01/21 04:22 AM
Happy New Year, May. Thinking of you and hoping that this year brings you ever more peace and joy and time spent thinking of other things that just belong to May herself. (Not to mention a lot less knowledge of all the twists and turns of H's mind and decision making process.... from over here it sounds like torture to have to know all that stuff!)
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/02/21 09:40 AM
Thanks Gerda, Cardinal, Steve! Happy New Year, everyone! I hope everyone here is doing okay.

Gerda, yes... torture. But something I'm ready to let go of, for now. I decided I want to start this new year with a fresh, clean view of the world, and part of that is kicking AP out of residence in my head. I'm tired of her freeloading in my head space. I really don't need to think any more about her or how my H did feel about her or feels about her now or may feel about her in the future. I'm over it. So I'm giving it over to the Universe as you suggested. It feels really, really good. Thanks for your encouragement here... it's helped me a lot. I'm starting to think about what forgiveness might look and feel like, starting with myself.

Cardinal, thinking of you-- my daughter made meringue cookies yesterday and they're perfect. And, I remember packing that box of ornaments last year so clearly and am sending all my love your way knowing how that felt. (I actually did it again this year. I don't know why. It felt totally unnecessary and silly in my gut, but my head said it was just as easy to put his together so why not... he has no idea though, of course.) I can't believe it's been a year since we first "met!" smile

I read an article the other day about a 12 year old who wrote a letter to her future self about 2020, asking her future self to not take things like hugging people for granted. It made me think of how difficult the past year has been for so many reasons, some related to the pandemic, some not. There are a lot of things I'm grateful for in the past year, and one of them is the community here, without which I would have struggled far, far more than I already have... so thank you.

Love, M
Posted By: tom_l Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/04/21 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by may22

In my case, my H is good at compartmentalizing so I know that most of the time, he doesn't feel that shame and guilt from looking at me. We're able to have a good and fun relationship. But when I remember something and my demeanor changes and he realizes why, that is when he gets a wave of shame and guilt and wants to just shut down, rewind a few minutes to where we were.

May, I know some time has slipped by since you made this comment on Christmas Day. My two cents - your husband will never come to grips with his failings as long as he compartmentalizes it and goes into some sort of denial when he faces it. You mentioned that he is a faithful Catholic, if I recall? I'd recommend that he find a local Catholic men's support group (OK, it will have to be via Zoom) where he can talk about things, especially his A. It's my sense that he will not fully get past it if he is denial about it. Those men will hold him accountable, which hopefully will help him be accountable to you as well. Also, when his actions are placed in the perspective of the failings of all the other men, he should begin to feel less shame. He will find parallel stories and hear how the other men saved (or lost) their marriages or others in their lives.

If I learned anything over my years, it's that suffering alone is not a sign of strength -- look at what DB has meant to all of us. Also, that as we stagger through our lives and all the complications that go with it, we need the support of men and women who can hear about our failings and our fears, and support us through recovery. A men's group will provide some level of safety for him to begin those initial steps.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/04/21 05:55 PM
hi Tom,

I don't disagree with you, but that is his work, not mine. I can't do it for him or suggest it or engineer it. When he's ready to figure out how to handle this, he will, or he won't. My job is to focus on myself and my kids and keep an open mind about the future, maybe with him, maybe not if he never does the work and I reach a point where I'm no longer willing to stay. But I'm committed to staying in my lane as best I can.

Cheers, M
Posted By: tom_l Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/05/21 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by may22
hi Tom,

I don't disagree with you, but that is his work, not mine. I can't do it for him or suggest it or engineer it. When he's ready to figure out how to handle this, he will, or he won't. My job is to focus on myself and my kids and keep an open mind about the future, maybe with him, maybe not if he never does the work and I reach a point where I'm no longer willing to stay. But I'm committed to staying in my lane as best I can.

Cheers, M

Dang, you're right! If there's anything DB has taught us it's to work on the things we control and let the rest go.

Still ... an anecdote. About 15 years ago I gained a lot of weight. I was 50 pounds over my high school weight, 30 pounds over a practical adult weight for my height. My wife (e.g., STBXW) knew I was sensitive about it and didn't want to talk about it. But she'd heard my complaints looking in the mirror, and one day put a Weight Watchers brochure on my pillow. I chucked it. A month or so later on she put an article on my pillow by a man saying how much WW had helped; while that wasn't strictly one of my objections, reading the article by another fellow got me over the hump. I went a few Saturdays later, and the rest is history. I lost nearly all the weight.

What am I saying? You're right, discussing it with H might not be appropriate. But maybe, as you see him softening, and things improve, you can indirectly steer him that way. Or have his best friend suggest it. Or his priest. Just thinking out loud.

Happy New Year and for you I think it will be a good one!
Posted By: KristinG Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/05/21 05:01 PM
Happy New Year May! You are still growing and are so strong. I'm so happy to see you letting go of things that occupy your mind and are not the healthiest for anyone to dwell on. I hope the kids had a wonderful Christmas filled with memories they will cherish forever. Much love to you and your family May and stay safe.

KG
Posted By: Mar252 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/05/21 05:32 PM
May, Happy New Year! Sounds like your stick is moving in the right direction. Glad to hear you are well.

Best,
Mar
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/12/21 01:45 AM
Happy New Year!! Mar, Kristin, so good to hear from you both xoxo smile please keep us updated on your sitches!

So, I'm doing better and better at kicking AP out of my headspace. She still crops up sometimes but without the pain or anxiety that accompanied it before. On New Year's Eve at midnight, H and I took both girls up on the roof where we had a fabulous view of (illegal but absolutely incredible) fireworks going off all across the city. Some were so large and so close it felt like a regular city-sponsored event. As I watched, sitting with my family, wrapped in blankets and cuddling the girls, I just imagined each firework exploding thoughts of AP from my head, blowing each thought into a million glittery bits and falling to the ground. Every time she invaded my headspace (MY headspace!!) I visualized one of the fireworks and popped her out of existence again. It has worked pretty well.

Right now, the best analogy I can make about what residence she is taking in my life is like dog $hit on the sidewalk. Unfortunate and gross. But you can step over it and keep walking. If she tries to follow, I flick the thought and explode it again like a little firework. I told my H, too, that she's like dog $hit on my lawn. He said, we've built a fence, now. The dog can't come take another cr@p on our lawn. Yes, but it's still there. He said, hopefully it will eventually decompose and turn into fertilizer and make the lawn greener. But this takes time.

I wrote a note to Wayfarer asking her advice about when you can know you're ready to drop your guard and think about piecing. I don't know that I'm ready quite yet (part of me is afraid I'll never be ready, that I'm waiting for some magic fantasy scenario that will never happen IRL). For now, I'm trying to stop spending time and energy being angry and upset about what has happened in the past and just accept it for what it is, not what it might or might not mean about what is happening today or what may happen in the future. I think I've still been holding onto some level of anger and resentment like a little security blanket to help shelter me from being vulnerable again, and to use as fuel to power me out if I need it. I think I need to let it go. It feels scary, though.

FlySolo, I read your note to me on your thread about re-reading my threads from a neutral standpoint and thinking about what advice I'd give myself... I will do that. I re-read some of it a few weeks ago and my biggest takeaway was that I've come a long ways, as has he. (maybe even... we've come a long way? I don't know that I'm totally ready to say that yet.) And how to be in the NOW, not in the fear and anger of yesterday, or in the dueling hope and anxiety for what may be in the future? This is my work, I think, today. Thank you for that.

Have you guys seen the movie Soul? It's out on Disney Plus right now, and I really loved it. It underscores the value of mindfulness and gratitude and empathy. I don't think this is a spoiler (but if you're worried skip to the next paragraph), but there is a scene where the main character walks out the front door and the sun is shining on his face and he closes his eyes and takes a deep breath and you can FEEL him breathing in the air and feeling the sun on his face and the pure joy and goodness of being alive and optimism about what the day will bring. This is another image I'm keeping with me.

I'll reflect on Wayfinder's thoughts in my next post, and recap a bit for you guys where I am in all of this process. But for now there is one other thing I wanted to share that I've been keeping with me and thinking about since the new year:

Kindness
Naomi Shihab Nye

Before you know what kindness really is
you must lose things,
feel the future dissolve in a moment
like salt in a weakened broth.
What you held in your hand,
what you counted and carefully saved,
all this must go so you know
how desolate the landscape can be
between the regions of kindness.
How you ride and ride
thinking the bus will never stop,
the passengers eating maize and chicken
will stare out the window forever.

Before you learn the tender gravity of kindness
you must travel where the Indian in a white poncho
lies dead by the side of the road.
You must see how this could be you,
how he too was someone
who journeyed through the night with plans
and the simple breath that kept him alive.

Before you know kindness as the deepest thing inside,
you must know sorrow as the other deepest thing.
You must wake up with sorrow.
You must speak to it till your voice
catches the thread of all sorrows
and you see the size of the cloth.
Then it is only kindness that makes sense anymore,
only kindness that ties your shoes
and sends you out into the day to gaze at bread,
only kindness that raises its head
from the crowd of the world to say
It is I you have been looking for,
and then goes with you everywhere
like a shadow or a friend.


I had read and held onto this poem a year or so ago, when I was in the hardest spots. I came across it again the other day and thought-- when I first read this poem, the part that spoke to me the most was the description of sorrow-- the future dissolving like salt in a weakened broth, the desolation of the landscape, the bus that never stops. It felt so real.

Now, the part that speaks to me the most is-- I feel very fortunate, somehow, if this is my path. There are many harder ways to learn this lesson. I don't want to lose this opportunity to embrace kindness and compassion as I walk this path. I thought I'd share it because it has meant a lot to me, different things at different times, and maybe it will speak to one of you.

Thank you, friends. I'll write more later.

xoxo May
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/12/21 02:37 AM
May,

It is so wonderful to read up on your sitch and see how far you have come!! I don't know if you remember it's been over a year since I was on, but you were always such a support for me in my early days.

Love the poem. This part hit me

"What you held in your hand,
what you counted and carefully saved,
all this must go so you know
how desolate the landscape can be
between the regions of kindness."

Something my church talks about is "Nothing is wasted in God's economy".
When you wrote: "I don't want to lose this opportunity to embrace kindness and compassion as I walk this path", it spoke to me and where I am.

I am stronger because of the journey.

None of us asked for any of this, but so many people here have embraced the value of growth, strength, courage and compassion. At lease, for me, that is what I see here in the DB community.

So good to see you are well. (((((may)))
Posted By: Mar252 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/12/21 03:50 AM
May,

Thank you for sharing the poem. It really struck a chord and started the tears flowing. I copied to my notes so that I can keep it close.

Best,
Mar
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/12/21 04:31 AM
May, wow, that's a beautiful poem. Namaste!

I love that you've emerged from BD with more than callouses to show for your journey.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/12/21 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by May22
FlySolo, I read your note to me on your thread about re-reading my threads from a neutral standpoint and thinking about what advice I'd give myself... I will do that. I re-read some of it a few weeks ago and my biggest takeaway was that I've come a long ways, as has he. (maybe even... we've come a long way? I don't know that I'm totally ready to say that yet.) And how to be in the NOW, not in the fear and anger of yesterday, or in the dueling hope and anxiety for what may be in the future? This is my work, I think, today. Thank you for that.


They say you have to let the past go in order to move forward. Blank page it. Press reset.

I say, harder said than done.

Moving forward on your own has exactly the same pitfalls as moving forward together. Trusting someone, man that's a big ask of anyone who has been left shattered on the floor. One day you will look up at fireworks, surrounded by the family you've fought for (with or without him), and not think of OW. It isn't that day yet. Until then, forgive yourself for allowing your fear and distrust to take center stage every now and then.

OW is not a pile of dogsh!t. She is a person who (although slightly mentally unhinged) was doing what she thought was best for her. Thinking of her as anything else gives her power.

You are wonderful May. Don't let anyone let you think any different about yourself.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/14/21 02:06 AM
Thanks Mar, Hope, CW!

FlySolo... I like that imagery, blank paging, setting reset. Yes, harder said than done. All a WIP for me.

I know, intellectually, that OW is not a pile of dog$hit. She is a sad and sorry individual who made some very selfish (and in the end probably stupid) choices. From things my H had told me about her, back when we spoke about her, she had some real codependency issues that she heaped on to him. He was her "chosen family" and last spring before she reached back out she started seeing an IC to work on her abandonment issues from my H. (It boggles my mind that a woman who pursued an affair with a married man with two children who lived 5,000 miles away could believe herself to be "abandoned" when he didn't leave his wife for her.) She froze her eggs. God.

I say all this and I don't feel any of the anger or anxiety I felt back then. I still feel grossed out but it is less personal. Anyway, all to say-- while I want to get to a place where I can picture her as a flawed human being worthy of compassion, I am not there yet. I feel there's progress, though-- I no longer think of her as an evil harlot who spent 2.5 years of her life actively working to hurt me and my children, who might pop back up out of the blue like in a horror movie to throw another bomb into my life. So, there's that. And I'm glad I've made the progress I have here and am okay that I'm not to zen master level yet.

Her imprint on my life is still stinky and decomposing, but fading. H and I were looking at photos of a spring break trip that we took early on in the A, and there was a photo of the two of us with his arm around me and holding me close and both of us smiling big at the camera. A couple of months ago, that would have sent me into a bit of a spin, re-calibrating the entire trip based on the realization that he was cheating during that time, and would have surfaced a lot of anger for me. This time, it occurred to me. He squeezed my leg and said, that was a really fun trip, wasn't it? I said, yes. And didn't allow her to contaminate it in my head anymore. Even if he was being a total lying double-life leading $hit at the time, it doesn't take away from my own memories and experiences anymore. It's my life, my head, and I'm taking it back.

Wayfarer, so many of the things you wrote resonated with me. I'm still thinking on a lot of them. Here's where I am:

-- I know in my heart that my recovery is up to me and no-one else. You have really helped me understand this. It is empowering for me to regard it this way. I am doing better and better here, though every once in awhile I get frustrated and WISH that I had one of those husbands who was wild with remorse and begging on his knees for forgiveness and would do anything, ANYTHING for me to forgive him. That is my fantasy but not my situation. But your words here have really helped me.

-- I also know in my heart that my H's path is his alone too, and he has a whole $hitload of work in front of him. Not to spend too much time on him, but we've had several conversations over the past few weeks where I'm coming more and more to feel confident that this is real. He is easily saying now that he's sorry, he doesn't think about AP or love her anymore (he is frustrated that I kept bringing her into the conversation as he wants to focus on us and not her, but unfortunately he brought her in and I can't snap my fingers and banish her from my head, as much as I wish I could). He says he is glad to be here with me, that he chose me and is choosing me, he loves me, he never stopped loving me, I'm his best friend and life partner and love of his life. (Though when he says this it isn't like you describe, sweeping me into his arms or anything. it is more like an intellectual declaration of fact.) He says these things take time, healing and building our relationship back up. True. We've had a few conversations where he's brought up the SSM and how he felt about it, abandoned and alone and really really hurting. It is raw for him. He feels frustrated that I haven't wanted to talk about it, which was a boundary for me back when I felt like all he wanted to do was throw it in my face as a justification for his affair. That doesn't seem to be the case anymore, but I'm still not pushing on any conversations in that area quite yet. To him, I think the A is inextricably linked to the SSM and I'm starting to see it less as his excuse more as he was in pain and it was a bandaid for him. Not to excuse his behavior but that is what I'm hearing when we talk. I don't know what progress he's really made in understanding why he did what he did and reconciling it with his own self-image. He said the other day to me again that this is what he wants, a life with me. I said, great. But understand there is a lot of work that will need to be done on both our parts in order to have a happy and fulfilled life together, after what you did, and I need to know that you're ready to do that work. He didn't jump to a response on this one and I ended the conversation. So we will see where that goes.

-- I don't know that I agree I'm trying to cram piecing and R together... I really don't see us as piecing yet. I feel like we're both closer but not there yet. For instance in the last conversation above, I would expect him to say YES of course I will do the work, I know it will be hard but it will be worth it and I'm sorry, etc. Also, I'd love to see him do some work on his own to demonstrate his interest in healing our M, like figuring out MC insurance (as I said to Steve, he figured it out back when he was having a secret affair and wanted to go to MC as a check-off box in the path to D), reading the Shirley Glass book, etc.

-- My fear stopping me from taking that next step and the risk of letting H back in... yes, I think you are right. Last spring did really burn me. You're right in the "I'm not afraid for him to leave" not really being the whole of it. This will take some time, I think. I'm not there yet.

-- I think our friendship is strong. He makes me belly laugh at least once a day. We have spent some good 1-1 time together, snuck out for beers in the middle of the work day with the kids at school, exchanging backrubs most nights. We are watching Outlander (OMG JAMIE, hubba hubba) which I know he's doing mostly for my sake. This is like back to the old days when we'd choose shows and watch them together and share a drink and backrubs. For a long time we never touched on the couch, he'd always pour himself a beer and not say a thing to me, he'd turn on the TV to whatever he wanted to watch and I could object if I wanted but otherwise he clearly wasn't thinking about me. I didn't care so much as I would just work or read a book. But it does feel more together now than it did.

-- But the romance side? When was the last time I wanted to climb him like a tree, or he gave me butterflies? I think maybe what is scaring me a bit is that I'm starting to have butterflies, when he looks at me and smiles like he's really happy to see me, I get butterflies. And I am interested in sex with him, but not like it has been over the past couple of years, slam bam thank you maam or just plain fun exercise. I want the full package this time around. Even though I told him I was done for awhile, we did do it last week and it felt again like ML... sort of... but that scares the cr@p out of me because I remember so clearly thinking the same thing on our anniversary last April, and a month later he was back in touch with AP. So I told him again we need to take a break. He said ok. So, this is an area where nothing is really happening at the moment.

K, that's a lot, not even sure I'm hitting all of the questions you had. I think basically I am feeling better about things for myself, seeing a lot of changes in him but maybe not (yet) enough, scared about piecing, worried I'm being a fool. And of course totally flattened by everything going on in our country so there's that too.

Hope everyone is well... thinking of you all!!

xoxo May
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/14/21 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by may22


I know, intellectually, that OW is not a pile of dog$hit. She is a sad and sorry individual who made some very selfish (and in the end probably stupid) choices.

I say all this and I don't feel any of the anger or anxiety I felt back then. I still feel grossed out but it is less personal. Anyway, all to say-- while I want to get to a place where I can picture her as a flawed human being worthy of compassion, I am not there yet. I feel there's progress, though-- I no longer think of her as an evil harlot who spent 2.5 years of her life actively working to hurt me and my children, who might pop back up out of the blue like in a horror movie to throw another bomb into my life. So, there's that. And I'm glad I've made the progress I have here and am okay that I'm not to zen master level yet.

Her imprint on my life is still stinky and decomposing, but fading.


As your friend, I will consider her a pile of dog crap not worthy of the bottom of my fabulous shoes and you can forgive her in time, or not. The choice is yours. : )

When I was in therapy - I was dealing with the trauma of being sexually assaulted by a family member. This did me in because they were family, I was a child - so it was confusing when this same person would kiss and hug me at family events and internally I was screaming but I would force myself to "love" them. I even felt guilt for hating them!!

So when I look at your situation (or others like this) - I think about those conflicting feelings and what I would have wanted someone to tell me at age 7. That I didn't have to like them. That I had every right to be angry. That I could hate them for as long as I wanted to - until it was time (healing took place) and I wasn't on fire at the mere mention of them.

My point is - you have every right to despise the OW. She did vile things. We should judge behaviors.

What you decide to do with those feelings are entirely up to you. If you want to forgive, you will get there. That won't mean what she did was ok. And that will not mean she will ever have a place in your life (physically or emotionally).

But if you want to be angry and hate what she did - do so for as long as you need to.


(((may))) xx
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/15/21 08:13 PM
Hope, thank you... that helps and I know you're right. And OMG, I'm so sorry you had to go through that as a child. That is really terrible and my heart goes out to the baby you, dealing with all of this. (((Hope)))

The reason I want to let go of any feelings towards AP is that I just really don't want her taking up any of my mental bandwidth. I don't like having rage in my body and head. It is a very uncomfortable feeling for me. I think she's gross and I want a life that doesn't involve her one bit. Not me trying to be zen master for the sake of it. Purely selfish on my part.

Of course what I really want is a life that never involved her in the first place. I've been spending some time here the last day or two in my head, p!ssed all over again at my H for being such a complete d!ldo. Ugh. And trying to reconcile somewhat the fact that he DID those things but he isn't DOING them now, how to not take my anger at the past out on the present. We can't go back and change things that happened, as much as we might wish we could. I guess I still just have a ways to go here.
Posted By: 97Hope Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 01/15/21 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by may22
The reason I want to let go of any feelings towards AP is that I just really don't want her taking up any of my mental bandwidth. I don't like having rage in my body and head. It is a very uncomfortable feeling for me. I think she's gross and I want a life that doesn't involve her one bit. Not me trying to be zen master for the sake of it. Purely selfish on my part.


Good!! It's time for May's healing. If you call putting the oxygen mask on yourself being "selfish"...ok?? But be careful not to judge or shame yourself (or allow anyone else to) while you take time to heal. I might be projecting here but I've felt guilty in the past for feeling certain ways and that can mess a person up. I didn't choose my feelings, but I learned how to process them and choose responses to them. Still working on that one. Another process. Ain't life grand?! lol

I used the Finding Nemo class on anger/grief/pain - When they got to the trench - they were supposed to swim "through it not over it"...I know that you will get there. Part of the process.

Originally Posted by may22
Of course what I really want is a life that never involved her in the first place. I've been spending some time here the last day or two in my head, p!ssed all over again at my H for being such a complete d!ldo. Ugh. And trying to reconcile somewhat the fact that he DID those things but he isn't DOING them now, how to not take my anger at the past out on the present. We can't go back and change things that happened, as much as we might wish we could. I guess I still just have a ways to go here.


But you are doing the work and that will not go to waste. Part of that is working through the emotions. You are on your journey of healing.

I'm so glad that you are still here. You were always such a source of comfort and understanding.

big hugs ((((may)))) Just keep swimming ; )
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/01/21 07:30 PM
Hi friends,

Not much to update. I am slowly feeling more settled. Inching closer to perhaps we are ready to piece. H continues to show remorse when appropriate but I'm also realizing he has a mountain of shame/guilt weighing on him in a way I don't think he really did before. He's expressed a couple times to me that he's scared I am going to leave him. He's not in a place, though (I think) yet to really engage in a meaningful way in any of this-- if I let him know the pain I still carry, his guilt rises and it seems he cannot really deal. We are talking about MC but I think I've shared before I'm not really wanting to do the footwork on this, so letting it rest.

Continue to practice being in the moment, grateful for all the good things in my life, my darling children, my family, my good good friends. Thinking (again) about a job change and have said yes to a headhunter that I'm interested in a position, which I have resisted doing for months-- so need to work on my resume and a cover letter this week. Big potential change but I finally think I'm ready. Both MIL/FIL and my parents have gotten their first vaccines now which has taken a big weight off of me that I didn't really acknowledge was there.

This poem was shared with me last week and I thought it might resonate with some of you here. Hope you are all well.

For Calling the Spirit Back from Wandering the Earth in Its Human Feet
Joy Harjo - 1951-


Put down that bag of potato chips, that white bread, that bottle of pop.

Turn off that cellphone, computer, and remote control.

Open the door, then close it behind you.

Take a breath offered by friendly winds. They travel the earth gathering essences of plants to clean.

Give it back with gratitude.

If you sing it will give your spirit lift to fly to the stars’ ears and back.

Acknowledge this earth who has cared for you since you were a dream planting itself precisely within your parents’ desire.

Let your moccasin feet take you to the encampment of the guardians who have known you before time, who will be there after time. They sit before the fire that has been there without time.

Let the earth stabilize your postcolonial insecure jitters.

Be respectful of the small insects, birds and animal people who accompany you.
Ask their forgiveness for the harm we humans have brought down upon them.

Don’t worry.
The heart knows the way though there may be high-rises, interstates, checkpoints, armed soldiers, massacres, wars, and those who will despise you because they despise themselves.

The journey might take you a few hours, a day, a year, a few years, a hundred, a thousand or even more.

Watch your mind. Without training it might run away and leave your heart for the immense human feast set by the thieves of time.

Do not hold regrets.

When you find your way to the circle, to the fire kept burning by the keepers of your soul, you will be welcomed.

You must clean yourself with cedar, sage, or other healing plant.

Cut the ties you have to failure and shame.

Let go the pain you are holding in your mind, your shoulders, your heart, all the way to your feet. Let go the pain of your ancestors to make way for those who are heading in our direction.

Ask for forgiveness.

Call upon the help of those who love you. These helpers take many forms: animal, element, bird, angel, saint, stone, or ancestor.

Call your spirit back. It may be caught in corners and creases of shame, judgment, and human abuse.

You must call in a way that your spirit will want to return.

Speak to it as you would to a beloved child.

Welcome your spirit back from its wandering. It may return in pieces, in tatters. Gather them together. They will be happy to be found after being lost for so long.

Your spirit will need to sleep awhile after it is bathed and given clean clothes.

Now you can have a party. Invite everyone you know who loves and supports you. Keep room for those who have no place else to go.

Make a giveaway, and remember, keep the speeches short.

Then, you must do this: help the next person find their way through the dark.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/02/21 07:04 AM
Quiet updates are good sometimes! I love your focus on gratitude.

Thanks for the poem, May. I found a video of the author speaking it on YouTube.
Posted By: cardinal Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/08/21 03:22 AM
Thanks for sharing the beautiful poem, may. I feel grounded in this moment after reading it. You sound grounded in your update too--gratitude will do that sometimes, won't it? Tether you to the exact place and moment where you happen to be giving thanks. Yay for progress on vaccines! I know I'll feel lighter when my parents finally get theirs. It's exciting to hear you are open to the possibility of a change in your job. Good luck with the resume and cover letter writing!
Posted By: Gerda Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/13/21 06:06 PM
May, just doing my rounds before I leave the boards for Lent, checking on your update while listening to the impeachment hearings, so a strange juxtaposition. Sounds like you are grounded and clear-headed and focused on the Good, that's a great thing. And so good about the job! I always find it weird when I am out in the world to notice how I am seen, as a professional or an intelligent woman, etc., and how I have to kind of re-enter that skin after the brutality of the MLCer's take-down. It really helps build you up into remembering who you are out in the world!

(I teach business writing and one thing I learned from some of the articles I signed that I really love -- in your annotations, quantify and qualify your descriptions -- e.g, "responsible for community outreach" becomes, "worked with 30 clients per week to curate the services each would need, increasing access by 25%.")

Lots of love.
Posted By: wooba Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/16/21 03:11 PM
love the poem! Thanks for sharing it with us. Thinking of you often.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/17/21 06:07 AM
May, I finally got through reading about your sitch.

You are one strong woman with a very good heart. Your courage is an inspiration and I've learned so much from your honesty and your sharing. Thank you! One day at at time...glad things are going in a overall better direction this year. Love your poem too. Thanks for sharing that! ((((May))))
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/17/21 07:48 PM
Hi CW, Cardinal, Gerda, Wooba, Elbereth! You guys are the best smile and it is nice to hear from all of you. I'm glad you liked the poem. I've never been much of a poetry person but in the last year that has started to change. And of course Amanda Gorman hit me like a freight train on Inauguration Day and I'm still kind of reeling from that too. I've always been much more of a reader than a listener, but the power of her words really blew me away and has made me feel differently about the spoken word. Coupled with (on the other side) the damage that words can do as well... anyway, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about all of this. And will share more poems as I come across them if it seems like they'll resonate with my friends here.

Thanks for the encouragement on the cover letter writing! Gerda, I did take your advice on the resume. I had a first round interview last week and have my fingers crossed things work out. I've had a number of opportunities come my way over the past year, and either said I wasn't interested at the start or a couple of times pulled my name at the last minute. But now I feel ready and this is something I want. And if it doesn't work out, that's okay too. The whole consultant thing is still tickling the back of my head as well.

I'm feeling things change in my sitch. Like the tides are shifting at some deep, invisible level. Part of me is scared to write this here and name it. But I do sense that things are changing for both of us.

A couple of weeks ago, something shifted for H. He said that while he knew in his head that this was the right decision, that his gut hadn't always been there-- and now his gut has caught up. He feels love for me in the little moments and says it, smiles with his eyes, hugs me for no reason. The humility that needs to accompany the remorse that the vets talk about and I never saw in my H-- that has finally surfaced. He talked about the shame and guilt, named it, owned it, and apologized over and over without qualifications. Said he knows he doesn't deserve what I'm giving him. He even started reading the Shirley Glass book (!!).

For me... I've felt a shift internally too, a readiness to stop digging into past hurts. I think I've been doing this to remind myself of just how badly he hurt me, like I need a refresher so that I can keep my walls up and not get hurt again. And somehow over the past week, this need has broken down. Like I really don't need to do that to myself, right now. Maybe I will want to again in the future. But right now, today, it just doesn't serve me to spend a whole lot of time wallowing in past pain, picking at scabs to make them bleed and remind myself just how red the blood is. I'm okay with letting the past be in the past, right now. I still feel detached in the DnJ removal-of-the-decoupling-mechanism way. But it feels like we're driving in the same direction now and while it took me a while to poke and prod and disbelieve and honestly be a bit of a b!tch more than once to see if he veered off, I'm settling in and feel okay about where I am right now.

Will this last? Is it real? I don't know. But I honestly feel better, mentally healthier and stronger, more at peace than I have in a long while.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/18/21 03:57 PM
may, that is an awesome update! This bodes extremely well for the future success of you Ring and piecing. Needing a fully committed S is necessary for R to work. I know that in my case, we started to R before she was fully back and committed. I was like you and skeptical at first, but overtime she started to show signs that she was committed back.

So happy for you! That sense of peace is hard earned, ain't it?
Posted By: cardinal Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 02/22/21 02:03 AM
Wow! This is awesome news, may! It sounds like both of you are arriving in a new place together. I think it’s understandable to feel apprehensive about naming it. I wonder if writing it here has given you any more permission to trust the internal shift you’ve been sensing in yourself and in your H. To just be in this moment and take it all in, to believe it. I’m so happy for you. And good luck with potential job! I like your attitude—what’s meant to happen with it will happen. xoxo
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/06/21 12:17 AM
So, been a couple weeks since my last update and thought I'd go ahead and post even though there isn't really much to report.

Steve-- thank you... and yes, it is hard-earned. And not altogether rock-solid. I feel secure and peaceful in that H is in this with me together. I'm not scared that AP is going to show back up again or anything like that. He has been spending some good time working on why he made the choices that he made beyond the "I was open to it because of the SSM," and thinking about the kinds of situations he put himself in that were really dumb, and linked to his own insecurities and need to be liked/desired. Positive stuff and not like there is any resolution, yet, or magic fix. But I do think promising.

Cardinal--thinking of you, my dear!! We have a red cardinal that's been bopping around lately (usually we only see the red-headed ones) and the girls named it "Reddy" and its mate "Set" (we are oh so creative here with names). Reddy was singing outside this morning and H was talking about how this particular cardinal's song totally puts him back into childhood, growing up and running around in his backyard with (apparently) tons of cardinals. While I thought of you smile Hope you are doing well.

I have a semi-final interview for this position on Sunday. It is a CEO position, a big job and a big step. The exec recruiter is someone I know decently well and I think he was surprised when I said I'd throw my hat in the ring. He said, you know, I've been bringing positions to you for the last couple of years, things I thought would interest you, and here we finally are-- what's changed? Why now? Partially, of course, I think my day-to-day was so overwhelmed with my M problems that I couldn't even imagine taking on a big work challenge. But also, maybe, having gone through this whole wringer, the things that would have stopped me before just aren't issues in the same way. And whereas before I think I was nervous to be in that bucks-stops-here role, maybe focusing more on the potential negatives, I'm really excited about the idea of being able to set the tone for an entire organization, to build a culture of trust and engagement and respect at work for everyone. Anyway, we will see. I still feel like if I'm the right fit, great, and if I'm not, that's okay too. I'm actually grateful to be excited about the idea itself, if that makes sense.

In my M, I am still feeling like we have the same goal in mind and I guess I would call it piecing. It is certainly not a straight line, though. I still feel angry towards him, sometimes, about all that he's done and I am probably still spending too much time and energy self-validating my own anger rather than acknowledging what is happening today and his efforts in piecing. He is really trying. That doesn't always make up for the hurt I still hold, though. And we certainly aren't like deeply in love all over again-- no sweeping me into his arms a la WF's H. it is all very very slow.

The humility I have finally seen also isn't like a constant theme underpinning his every action or word-- it is more like I got a good dose of it and then will see flashes here and there, mostly coming out when i get angry and he is sorry (though I know he is also frustrated in that he feels I'm letting the past poison the present).

For those of you with experience in this-- any thoughts? For whatever reason, my impression was that for the couples that make it, the former WS lives and breathes humility and remorse, like it should come across in every word and action that they're totally aware of what a jack@ss they have been and will continue to do whatever it might take to make it up to their spouse.

As I write that I think maybe that is not totally realistic. I think a big part of me wanted the fairy-tale reconciliation and to feel more in the driver's seat. This is less comfortable. Neither of us are in the driver's seat. It feels more like we are driving next to each other but not always at the same speed or on the exact same route. We're both trying and blundering and maybe making things worse some days and maybe better other days. And while I'm not scared of AP anymore, I used to think that once she was firmly out of the picture it would be smooth sailing. That the two of us could do absolutely anything we set our minds to and of course we'd get to blissful M2.0 in the end.

Now, I can't see the end of this story as clearly as I thought I could before. I simply don't know if M2.0 is out there for us. Or if the best we'll get is companionable we-do-fine but never really forge that emotional intimacy again. Flashes of M1.0 hit me, sometimes, where I feel resentful and act on it and we slide back into the M1.0 space of bickering and competition over who is right. I guess at least I can recognize it when it starts to happen, now. I think he can too, and he is better than I am at controlling his own behavior in these moments. But it is all too easy for me to sit in that space of anger and resentment-- some of the same triggers from before, plus of course the A-- and feel some of the same feelings towards him that led to the SSM in the first place. We can talk about it when it happens, at least, though, so that is positive. But it isn't fun.

I don't want it to come across like things are bad generally-- 80-90 percent of the time, things are positive. He goes out of his way to do nice things for me, he tells me he loves me, he makes eye contact and smiles, he touches my back or my side whenever he's near. But then something reminds me of the A and the anger returns. And while we are getting much better at dealing with these situations than we did a few months ago, again, it doesn't erase what happened. I feel like he wants to work on our R, and I want to root out all the hurt and anger of the A first.

Hmm, there ended up being a lot more to say than I thought! I would appreciate any thoughts especially from those of you who have walked this path before. We're looking into a new MC which I think will be helpful, I think we both feel ready for that step. His parents are coming next week for a couple of weeks also now that they're both vaccinated. Which could add a whole layer of tension between us, possibly. Or not. The last time they were here was that awful, awful time right after he told me the full story of the A and I was interviewing D attorneys and we started seeing the discernment counselor... so all of that gets stirred up a bit as well.

Anyway, sorry for the long post! Thinking of my friends here. The sun has finally come out after a couple days of rain and feels amazing. Happy Friday!
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/06/21 12:31 AM
One question that jumped out at me May...is all the work that you have done and all the pain and hurt that you have felt, and continue to feel, worth it only to have a M that lacks the emotional intimacy that you desire?
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/06/21 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
One question that jumped out at me May...is all the work that you have done and all the pain and hurt that you have felt, and continue to feel, worth it only to have a M that lacks the emotional intimacy that you desire?

Of course not. Not in the end. But we are only in the very beginning stages of piecing. I'm not prepared to bail out now after everything we've been through. And the same reasons I stood (my children) are still here, still have no idea any of this happened and I still think it is worth it-- for them and for my H and me-- to give this M the best shot we possibly can.

Thank you for writing this-- you've reminded me of the big reasons I'm here, and it is a good reminder to keep focusing on my ultimate goal. I may end up bailing in the end. I may not. But I want to know I tried. And truth is, we do have flashes of the emotional intimacy, more and more. But it certainly isn't where I want to be. Nor do I think true emotional intimacy will be possible until we've worked through a lot of the stuff around the A-- and we simply aren't there yet. We've barely started.

Having gone through all of this, I don't think I would be satisfied with a mediocre M again. M1.0 won't do it for me any more. M2.0 or bust! wink
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/06/21 05:53 PM
May,

I think you are doing really well and trying your best to forgive. I think it’s going to come down to one word “trust”. Can you trust him?

We’re finding in a lot of these situations that the affairs weren’t their first rodeo. Does your husband have of a history of any other affairs.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/06/21 06:15 PM
Originally Posted by May
. And the same reasons I stood (my children) are still here, still have no idea any of this happened and I still think it is worth it-- for them and for my H and me-- to give this M the best shot we possibly can.

Having gone through all of this, I don't think I would be satisfied with a mediocre M again. M1.0 won't do it for me any more. M2.0 or bust! wink

I love it, May. For someone who used to describe themselves as having a tendency to control, I've been inspired by your ability to wait and see where he heads, to acknowledge what you're feeling, but not let those feelings lead you into rash actions. When you have acted (e.g., when you walked towards divorce) it's been decisive, believable, and had an impact. I hope your husband does the work to keep you. It sounds like you want an intact family badly--maybe you'd even accept a M1.5 instead of a full-blown M2.0? Obviously, a M1.0 wouldn't be worth it. Stay true to yourself, because the May you are is awesome.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/07/21 03:21 AM
Hello my sweet May,

I have more to say and when I have time I'll write something more encompassing about what you wrote here and the questions I never answered on my thread. However, for now I just want to remind you. We spent almost 4 months not talking about the A at all. We spent 4 months basically dating. We were very cautious around each other. I didn't bare my soul. We didn't emotionally connect for a while. I think OverRainbow can speak on that too. I was scared if I let him in he'd just hurt me so we inched along to that point. The sweeping me in his arms didn't happen until after we were able to put things on the table. And his remorse is a constant under current. We almost work in reverse from the two of you. H constantly thinks every time I'm stressed, sad, upset, pretty much every negative emotion it's because of him. Honestly that gets annoying for me. I don't want to have to constantly reassure him there are other things in this world that can affect me negatively. I've more than proved I'm in this long haul.

I say all this so you understand. None of this is linear. And this side of the journey isn't going to be the same for every one. This is all one step at a time. I was in a mess for about 4 months. 8 months later I can finally say we're entering M 2.0. When I think about my exH and what I did there. It probably took us 2 years to get back to some version of normal. Where he felt secure and I wasn't thinking 24/7 I made a mistake not walking away for good when I had the chance. But he never changed. He was always going to do what he was going to do. So I did leave for good a year after that. When our new normal was exactly the same as our old one. Honestly, your H had you guys in a mess for 2 years. It's going to take you at least that much time to get back to where you were, pre-A. It'll probably take another year to really feel like your in M 2.0. You have a very long road ahead of you. I know you're good for it if you continue to choose it. But you can't use books or us as a place to put your milestones in piecing. You'll have to set those yourself. And you know them when you see them. The same goes if/when you start to see the signs pointing to an exit. You have to trust your gut now. Not your head or your heart. Trust your gut for this.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/07/21 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
I think you are doing really well and trying your best to forgive. I think it’s going to come down to one word “trust”. Can you trust him?

Hi LH, I do trust him... but I'm a trusting fool as I have probably noted before. So take that with a grain of salt. But yes, I absolutely do trust him that AP is out of the picture and not coming back, and that he's learned his lesson on what is important and wouldn't ever risk this again. The trust has actually been there for awhile. It has been my head that was telling me I was dumb to trust him. It is only in the past few weeks that my head has caught up to my gut on this one. And my head isn't 100 percent there, either.

But-- do I trust that he can do the hard work to learn from this $hitshow, to be a better and bigger man, to ensure going forward that his actions align with his values, to admit his failings and work hard to improve himself, swallow his ego-- all the things that would have to happen to get to M2.0? That, I don't know.

Originally Posted by LH19
We’re finding in a lot of these situations that the affairs weren’t their first rodeo. Does your husband have of a history of any other affairs.

Yes, this was his first and only affair. It also wasn't like a little slip up though. If I'm trying to feel generous, I do think there were some aspects that made it last as long as it did without him being a total sociopath-- she lived 5k miles away so they only saw each other maybe 15-20 times total in the entire two years (at some point I counted it all up but have now forgotten). He also never had any serious GFs before me. I was the first person he ever said ILY to. (No longer the only person. Which is hurtful, obviously. Though maybe a tad bit unfair because I did have serious Rs before him... but at least they didn't overlap!!) He had zero idea of what it meant to break up with someone. I think he made a series of stupid and selfish choices that landed him in a situation he didn't know how to get out of. He didn't believe that R with me would be possible. he thought that once I knew what he'd done he'd be out on the street the next day. Anyway. No real need to rehash any of that right now, but just to say that yes, I do believe this was his only affair. We aren't in a Steve_'s wife sitch right now.

CW-- thank you. I think I am going to struggle with control forever! But I'm also starting to realize that one of the things that I want in M2.0 is to feel more like a partnership and less like me running the household with input from him. I was thinking about Sage's situation and how she completely handled everything, including her H, for years. My sitch wasn't as extreme as hers-- I have two kids, not four; my H traveled maybe half of what hers did; and my H *has* stepped up quite a bit in this realm throughout this whole mess-- but I do feel like I shouldered the majority of the emotional burden of running a household, and I did all the research for everything else we did and would have him weigh in on the options. I don't want that anymore. I want a full partner and I think that means me giving up (perceived) control over the future. I control me-- that's it.

Wayfarer-- I really appreciate you weighing in. I know this isn't linear and I guess this is my control side speaking again but it would all be so much easier and more comfortable if there was more of a path, I could check off the boxes of feeling like we're going in the right direction at least or not. I know there is no magic key that can tell me if this is all going to be worthwhile. Maybe if we get a really terrific MC that will help, someone who has been through this with others before and knows what it takes to be successful.

I guess the funny thing is that the script is so GD clear during the A. Every single f-ing WS says the same GD things. It would be hilarious if it weren't so horrible. So part of me feels like there should be a script for these next parts, too, you know? Maybe there is and I just don't know what to look for.

You know, though. My gut has never, ever wavered on any of this. My head is unsure and desperately wants more security. My heart is still hurt. But my gut has always said we'll get through this. (Again. My gut has been wrong, though. I believed him during the trickle-truth era when he kept telling me a bit more but that was it. When he told me for a year there was no-one else, that I had broken him sexually because of the SSM, the ILYB stuff. Then that it was only an EA, they had kissed once. Etc.)

Of course, no need to rehash. But my brain has a hard time trusting my gut right now. For a long time I was angry with him for taking that away from me, my own belief in my own intuition. But I realize that no-one can take that away from me! That is all on me. I can choose to not let this experience change how i see and interact with the world. I am a glass-half-full person and I mean to stay that way.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/08/21 12:31 AM
Sometimes I try to imagine what I’d try to do in my sitch if it were at the point yours is now. I do feel like I’d feel many of the same feelings you’ve had/are having. Totally understandable considering what you’ve gone through. I think once I recognized my focusing on aspects of things (what’s going right or wrong or my own expectations), I think I would recognize myself doing that and try to “just let things flow”. That is what is hardest for me as I am the type of person who wants to feel in control. I don’t always adjust to things changing or not going my way. But I’m learning in my self inspection journey that I’ve gotten in my own way many times.

And, like the rest of the process, you can’t really control the outcome of your piecing or M 2.0 beyond your own actions and attention to the relationship. Have you tried to just flow with it, and try moving those expectations from your head for even just a week. Then try to evaluate the week after it’s over? This is something I’ve been trying to do, to try to get more comfortable with what I can’t control as well as to avoid the dwelling of things that has been my way for so long. Other than just this recent period I’m in, I think it’s helped me. I find I spend less time dwelling on things when the period has ended versus dwelling on what hasn’t even happened yet. If that makes any sense.

Anyway, not sure if any of this sounds helpful. Sending you hugs and kudos for how far you have already come. laugh
Posted By: Oceangl Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/10/21 12:51 AM
May, it's so good to see you are moving forward. I think it's good to go slowly, to allow your gut and brain and heart get on the same page eventually. You've been through A LOT, and there's no reason to rush anything.

I know what you mean about the script being so clear. I think these WS think they are going through something so wonderful and new that no one has experience before. Yes, other people may do this and it's bad, but their relationship is different. It's special. Ugh.

Anyway, you are doing great. I'm sorry I haven't always commented. I am a bit in survival mode right now, but I think I am coming out of it.
Posted By: Pommy99 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/16/21 10:52 AM
{{{May}}} ... it’s so good to catch up on your sitch. When I came back to the forum I did spend a little time reading up on your progress before feeling ready to post about my own.

I am so pleased that you guys are moving forward, and that you have come so far. I can imagine that it has felt like snail’s pace in the moment, but when you read through 5 months’ of updates in an hour like I have done, the progress is so large and evident.

Like you said on my thread, it is so comforting to know that you guys are where you are. Our situations have seemed to run in parallel so much over the last 12+ months: the endings of the A, the relapses, the ambivalence, you overtake me, I drop back, you drop back, I go past...lol! I think one of my fears in coming back to the forum would have been to discover that you guys had made other choices. Admittedly that’s from a very selfish standpoint - i would have not felt as hopeful for my own sitch if I thought yours had gone pear-shaped. But of course I am also so pleased for you and your family that things seem to be on the right track right now.

I know exactly what you mean about the missing script. But I can tell you now that what I read in your updates has so many similarities to mine.... our Hs are still following a script from somewhere! When you talk about Hs’s humility, shame, guilt etc. I am seeing so much of this from mine too. It has taken a while for the A fog to lift but my H seems to be well and truly out of the fog and can see the A - and AP- for what they were: a truly toxic and destructive force. One thing that has made me chuckle is the ‘verbal filter’...or lack thereof that you used to experience so much with your H. My H has now started to operate with no verbal filter .... perhaps fortunately for me it is all historic data, and not real-time like with your H. I just think ‘ew, gross’ every time he opens his mouth like this, but it always makes me smile a little in thinking about your descriptions! I guess I have given H a safe space to share his emotions and he doesn’t know when to stop lol !

There were some other things I wanted to say in relation to specific points but I’m on my phone, in a car park, and it’s not easy to find the bits I need, so I will sign off for now and try again later!

Sending huge hugs May! So proud of where you are and how you are handling things! Xx
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/26/21 03:19 AM
Hi guys! Been a few weeks so thought I'd update and respond.

Things are going... pretty well, actually. His parents were just here visiting for a couple of weeks and it went fairly well. Two weeks is a loooong time to have anyone in your house (IMHO) especially when the guests are older and very set in their ways, and we all barely left the house since H and I are WFH and his parents don't really like to get out all that much. We've had a lot of rain too. We did all go to a beach house for a few days (kids were on spring break) which was lovely, and H tried really really hard to not provoke his father, since their relationship has been pretty strained over the past few years. (FIL has been watching a lot of Fox News, shall we say.) By the end we did have a bit of strain but the nice thing was instead of the tension making H and me blow up at each other, we were able to be a team and talk each other down when things got tense. Veeeery different from the past several years. MIL is still also quite angry with H for his A-- she talked to both of us individually a couple of times. House back to being very quiet which is nice.

In terms of H's remorse/behavior, there are a few new things happening. One, I had told him that I needed to hear that he was sorry and he loved me not just once but enough so that I believed it. (I also want to hear that AP is a sorry POS and he can't believe he ever thought he had feelings for her, but I don't think we're quite there yet and I'm trying not to push it.) The last couple of weeks, he now comes up to me daily, hugs me, and says he loves me and is sorry. If I get triggered or sad, he puts his hand on my arm or leg and says he's sorry instead of immediately getting upset that I'm upset. (If I can't let it go and get pissy, he will eventually get pissy back and say I'm ruining everything, so it isn't like this is all roses. But TBH the authentic apology does really help me and I'm much more able to not turn to anger in these moments, I think partially because of this.)

He also has brought up MC a number of times. Our old IC finally got her insurance straightened out, so we decided to see her as a couple for a few times to see how that goes, and if it doesn't work to find another MC. We talked it over (it was his idea as neither of us think it is healthy for us both to see her individually any longer, and I also truly don't think she's a great IC for him as he needs less of a validator/echo chamber and more someone who will push him gently in the areas where he wants to make change), and he went ahead and talked with her and made all the arrangements. I do feel ready for this step. I said to him that one thing I wanted to do from the beginning (especially as we both know her well in the IC capacity but not as an MC) was to set some goals together for what we wanted to accomplish, and he immediately agreed. He has said to me over and over when I'm getting upset -- May, we want the same thing. It just really struck me in that moment how far we've come because the first time we started to see an MC (when he wanted to check the box on the way to D) he'd refused to set the same goal of a better M with me-- he kept saying he didn't think we should take anything off the table, including D. That blew my mind and totally upset me through the entire 9 months or so we saw her, though of course at that time I had no idea he was having an affair and in hindsight it all makes so much sense. So while it hurts somewhat to think back and realize all the gaslighting that was going on at that time, it also does really strike me how very different he is right now than he was then. And, some of you might remember that early on in this R process I'd said one of the things I was looking for (WMD's short term goals!) was him doing the legwork to get us set up with MC. So checking that box feels positive.

Re-reading my last thread and my hangups on the humility and remorse flowing through every interaction... we aren't there. But there is definitely more there than there was, and I'm also less focused on it (maybe because it is no longer glaringly absent). I have more hope in M2.0 now than I did three weeks ago. Baby steps but there does seem to be value, at least for me, in taking stock a little less frequently so that change is more apparent-- Elbereth, just as you suggested. I think for me consistently remembering to focus on the present and take a longer view helps. I really tried to take your advice to not worry about it till I was ready to take stock and I think that really helped me too, so thank you.

OG-- that part about them going through something so wonderful that no one understands cracked me up. It is so sad and funny. It used to drive me insane. It still does a bit, even though he is off that script these days. I'm thinking of you and hope you keep updating!

POMMY! I hope you keep updating too. Would love to hear more of your insights on my sitch especially given all the parallels! My H isn't saying that AP is a nut job (though I'm not sure he'd tell me when he does since I've probably made too big a deal of it) so I don't know that he's out of the fog in the same way. And maybe he won't ever be, who knows. I hope so, though. I have a hard time imagining M2.0 and a fulfilling sex and romantic life with H without a very firm belief on his part that AP was a mistake and not all that great of a person. (Why is this so important to me? IDK. Maybe it won't be in the future. But it feels that way right now.) H is also less of a sharer these days, we don't talk about the A or AP much at all. I think he deeply regrets saying a lot of the filterless stuff he said during the A. He has said that he had a different goal back then--he wanted me to want to D him--and that I need to understand that lens when remembering all the cr@p he said about her to me. It was less that he really felt like that so much as he wanted to hurt me and push me away. Which is horrible and cruel, of course. But it did happen and neither of us can erase it.

Job front-- I am one of three finalists for this position but am not feeling especially optimistic, but also pretty zen about the whole thing. Like if it happens, great, and if not, it wasn't meant to be. I'm glad I put myself out there regardless. smile

Love to you all,
May
Posted By: wooba Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/28/21 03:23 PM
It's so heartwarming to read a story that has a nice outcome like yours. Of course the ending is not yet written but I've enjoying watching your growth may. And I'm glad I no longer want to yell at your H anymore. lol!!
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/30/21 02:35 AM
Hi May,

I'm so pleased to hear that so much positive progress has been happening in your situation! And glad I was able to offer you some advice that has served me well too...and glad to see it's helping! Just keep going with the flow and try to not get stuck in the minutia...things will look so different even in the next few weeks! If it's working, keep doing it, right? smile

And good luck on the job opportunity! You go girl...top three during a pandemic? You are killing it! Even if you don't get it, that's something to be proud of!

(((May22)))

El
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/30/21 07:06 PM
Thanks, Elbereth! Yes, one foot in front of the other-- the only way through this situation is through it, no matter which direction you're moving.

And guys... I got the job!!! Don't have an official offer yet but the recruiter called to say the committee had made a unanimous decision. I still need to see (and negotiate) the offer, and then it goes to the Board for approval, so nothing definite yet... but we've already talked generally about what it will look like. smile Now figuring out how to extract myself from my current position and focus on something new!

xx M
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/30/21 07:18 PM
Congratulations!!!!
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/30/21 07:21 PM
Yay, May! I am so happy for you. You've been talking about whether to change roles for months SO glad your life stabilized enough you felt comfortable trying out and of course you are the best candidate. wink

If they picked you and now are talking salary, I'm sure it'll be competitive.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 03/31/21 05:33 AM
Whooo Whoooooooo!!! Congratulations!!
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/02/21 01:32 PM
I'm happy to hear about all the good news. Motion forward is always good. Even if it's agonizingly slow like with H or moderately slow like taking on a new job. All wonderful things. I'm so happy for you smile
Posted By: cardinal Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/03/21 04:39 AM
Ahhh, I was hoping by the time I caught up with your thread I would read that you had gotten the job! Huge congrats, may--this place is so, so lucky to have you, and the people there are too. Yay!
Posted By: Oceangl Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/05/21 02:30 AM
May! So good to hear good news! I feel like you have good things going for you, and that you are more in control of your own life and future!! Such good news about the job.

I am happy to read these victories you are noticing. The time with your in-laws for example and working more as a team, these are good things. He does sound more sincere. One day at a time!
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/13/21 09:14 PM
Hi friends! Thank you all so much! I'm super excited about this new role. The announcement went out yesterday and it has been a bit overwhelming and uplifting at the same time-- so many people reached out to say something nice, congratulate me, etc. It felt really great but by the end of the day I was completely exhausted as I was trying to say something personal in response to everyone. Two more weeks of this position, then a WEEK OFF (woo hoo!!! I don't think I've ever had this as an adult except for a month after college but I'm not sure that counts) and then I start my new job in May.

Things are good with H. I'm realizing that a lot of the issues are in my head and around my difficulties with letting the past go, rather than what I'm actually seeing in front of me. (now, that doesn't mean I can or am doing anything about that. But I can see it.) He's been incredibly supportive and so proud of me for this whole thing. He sent me screen captures of people who had been texting him to say congratulations to me, tells me over and over how proud he is, what a great example I'm setting for the girls, that he knows I'm going to be fantastic in this role. I feel like we used to spend more time talking about his work (mostly because mine felt like basically complaining about all the BS happening, and him getting frustrated on my behalf which wasn't productive so I shut it down) but he's been a terrific sounding board to think through all kinds of things from dealing with the board in my new position to how to gracefully exit my current position while doing what I can to protect and support the people still there. It has been really nice.

I still get triggered by things and I know it frustrates him, though mostly now he will just hug me and apologize rather than get upset at me for dwelling in the past. He did say it felt like he came home with a 98 on his math test and I was focusing on the 2 he got wrong rather than everything he got right. We still haven't had our first MC appointment but have made an agreement to take a break from rehashing things until we can do it in front of a professional. The pain I feel when things are triggered, though, is very different from what it was in the past-- no longer that sharp anguish or rush of anger. Now it is more like-- I recognize, I remember, it [censored] and I wish it didn't happen. It will more like put me from good mood to neutral rather than immediately plunging me into the $hit.

Even though things are positive, I still feel we have a very long ways to go. I feel more optimistic that M2.0 is in our future now, though, and that we'll work through this together. But we are really still like best friends and partners, little flares of romance but I am mostly keeping that door shut for now. Why? I'm not totally sure and it isn't purposeful, really-- I think I'm scared of opening it and getting hurt again and want to have washed the dirt of AP completely out of my brain before I go there. Advice welcomed. It was interesting the other day-- a couple things happened where I realized that he was nervous about me wanting to leave him in the future, which sure felt like a change of pace. Also, there was a day where I was feeling really good about everything and randomly hugged him and told him how I felt happy and positive, and he hugged me back and it was all great. Later that night I got triggered by something and mentioned it and withdrew. He got really quite upset and talked about how amazing he had felt when I'd hugged him and said those things, and how hard and frustrating it was for him to see those feelings and attitude in me disappear because of something that had happened in the past, not anything he was doing today. I told him I can't change the past and neither can he, and there are still consequences to those past actions and choices. I think he thinks I'm choosing to engage in these thoughts, whereas I think it is natural and I should acknowledge and deal with them as they come up rather than push them away. I am betting there is some happy medium here, though, and there probably *is* a point where I could be unhealthily holding onto the past. Am I picking at the scab and delaying healing? Or is it necessary to let the pus drain out? I don't know.

I had dinner with a friend the other night who reached out to say she was getting a D. Big bummer as they were a great couple friend of ours though we haven't seen them at all because of the pandemic. She said the pandemic hadn't helped but that she had gotten to an age (42) where she realized she wanted more, she was BFFs with her husband but nothing beyond that, that they'd been separated seven years ago for four months and she felt they never really worked through their issues after that, that they'd come back together out of convenience more than for their relationship. Turns out she'd had an A back then, left her H, the AP was also married and wouldn't leave his wife, that the A was incredibly intense and going back to her H was just really blah to be with someone she wasn't in love with. It was the weirdest conversation. I really like her H and he clearly isn't on board with this D. I felt so badly for him. I have also spent so much time in my head demonizing the AP that it felt really crazy that the cheating party was MY FRIEND in this case. And then scared that this same thing will happen to us, that we'll never recapture that spark and he'll just get bored and leave in seven years. I came home and we talked all about it and he hugged me and said we aren't them, he isn't my friend, we make our own path, etc. But it was still a difficult evening.

So... that's about all, my friends. Most of my focus on this upcoming new job and trying to stay in the present with my R, grateful for what I have, my children, all my wonderful friends IRL and here.

Hugs to you all!
xoxo May
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/13/21 09:49 PM
Wow your friend sounds amazing. She is divorcing her BF because their relationship isn’t as intense as her affair. Makes sense.

May there are no guarantees your H isn’t going to get bored and walk again and break your heart all over. Also, if you divorce there are no guarantees a new guy wouldn’t do the same.

Unfortunately this is your new reality.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 12:16 AM
Thanks, LH. I know. Nothing in life is guaranteed, really. This is the hard lesson we are all learning, I think.

I guess I'm less concerned at the moment with grasping this new reality-- it is truth. I got it. I'm more thinking about how I heal, how I let go of the past and of fear, how I live my life and love again freely even with this knowledge in my back pocket. I refuse to let my H's choices take that away from me. That's what I'm working through at the moment. His choices are on him. My choices, and my own healing, are my responsibility and that is squarely where I'm focused at the moment.

Also, I'm not defending my friend or her decisions. I don't agree with them at all. I actually met up with her wondering if the story was going to be the other way around, that her H cheated on her and that was why they were Ding... but I was very wrong. I just said it to note that it was a wake up call for me in a way, because in my mind I have demonized all WASs and here's one who isn't a horrible person. She's a friend. Just like my H isn't a horrible person. They've both done very $hitty things to the people they love. Are they irredeemable? Do I ditch my friend because she's done this? Or tbh it seems like she is in need of a friend right now, a non judgmental one.... anyway. Just sharing these things that have come up for me recently.

M
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 01:11 AM
May, wow, deep.

I imagine it was triggering to hear your friend tell you those things. When a friend is doing something wrong that hurts others, it can be hard to figure out how to react. You have a good head on your shoulders.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 01:25 AM
Truthfully it’s just the reality of life. Your friend is making decisions based on emotions and not logic and reason and there will be consequences at some point. You are in your early 40s so you will start seeing this more and more.

Within 25-50 years the institution of marriage will be gone IMO and people will be legally bound together with legal contracts choosing to renew every 3-5 years. Most won’t make it to the 4th amendment.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 02:13 PM
Hello my sweet May,

I've missed you!!! I'm so excited for your week of nothing break!! I had one of those before I took my current position in a much lower stress job than the one in juvenile justice. It was absolutely bliss.

Things seem to be progressing with H, and what seems to be a really healthy way. You guys are navigating this uncharted territory with out professional help pretty well. I think that's pretty huge, and you should be proud of that. Imagine how much work you're saving the MC by learning to communicate and turn inward instead of outward while you both heal!

There a couple things I wanted to offer up if I could:
Originally Posted by may22
I'm more thinking about how I heal, how I let go of the past and of fear, how I live my life and love again freely even with this knowledge in my back pocket.
So in the beginning of these $h!tshows we're asked repeatedly to stop controlling and drop the rope on our spouses. Over and over we're told and have to tell our selves we can't keep them tethered to our expectations or ourselves. They have to do them. We have to do us. This side of the disaster, for the few of us that make it here, the rules are different, but still the same. My dear you have to drop the rope, that tether you have to the fear and the heartache of the past. The thing about falling in love is it's falling, unaided, with no safety harness. It's all or nothing standing on the edge and jumping in. Like LH said, yeah H could break you're heart again or you could move on and that guy could break your heart. H is already showing you he's scared you're going to change your mind. He's just as afraid as you are to let go and give in to the love here. Honey, all you can do is decided that you're willing to risk your heart here and let go.
Originally Posted by may22
. I just said it to note that it was a wake up call for me in a way, because in my mind I have demonized all WASs and here's one who isn't a horrible person. She's a friend. Just like my H isn't a horrible person. They've both done very $hitty things to the people they love. Are they irredeemable? Do I ditch my friend because she's done this? Or tbh it seems like she is in need of a friend right now, a non judgmental one.... anyway. Just sharing these things that have come up for me recently.
This friend right here was a WS. People make bad decisions. People hurt and flail and do lots of things they said they'd never do. While there are some WS/WAS around here, and out in the world, who are truly awful humans for the most part they are just very fallible human beings. Just like all LBS aren't angels regardless of how some people like to frame themselves. Given how things are still very triggering to you, you'll have to decided if you can tolerate supporting your friend through this. And you are coming in with a pretty strong bias maybe you need to disclose that, and she can make the decision on whether or not to lean on you through this on her own. Maybe you can be objective and a little removed and supportive. That's just something you'll have to feel out as you go.

Thinking of you often XOXOXO
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 07:00 PM
(((wayfarer))) wish I could call you IRL.

I hear what you're saying about dropping the rope in this new way. It feels really different from the earlier dropping of the rope, somehow-- like even as hard as that is, in the end you feel like you're pulling inward, gathering strength, depending on no-one but yourself for your happiness and wellbeing. You become the rock, the lighthouse-- the imagery is all of solidity and groundedness. And this feels like stretching out and letting go and being vulnerable all over again.

Truth be told I'm not quite ready for that step yet. I see it out there. I want to get there. But not quite ready to take the jump, and I think I'm okay with that.... just want to be sure I'm taking the right steps in that direction and not overly picking at the wounds of the past.

And for both WF and CW... it was weird to talk to my friend, but it actually wasn't really triggering. My comment about ditching my friend was more of a response to LH's sarcastically calling her amazing. Honestly? She is an amazing person for a lot of reasons. And I'm clearly not in a position to judge her since I'm working on forgiving my husband for something similar. I listened to her whole story, validated, am helping her look for a place. She clearly needed someone to talk to and even though she *said* things were amicable between her and her H, they're NC excepting the kids and the D and she made a whole bunch of comments about not knowing what he was up to. Another single friend of hers had found him on Tinder and screencapped his profile-- she showed it to me and was really weirded out that he was OLD but knows she has no say in it. So I think things aren't as rosy in single land as maybe she thought it would be. (Note for LBSs... NC sure is effective. And don't OLD as a tactic. If I had to categorize her response, it was more thinking he was desperate and lonely than moving on.)

Anyway. All to say that I think I was a good friend to her and put my own $hit aside and can probably continue to do that with one caveat-- I don't know that I could if she was in an active affair and leaving her H for her AP in real time. That I don't know if I could do. But her A was seven years ago, they tried to work it out and at least from her perspective, they couldn't. That is actually what scared me the most from our conversation. Felt like a reminder that I need to put in the hard work on myself and my R to get to M2.0-- even though things are feeling much better between us, we still have a long ways to go and I should not take anything for granted.

xx M
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 07:46 PM
I think I’ll chime in here because I have some personal experience with this. I have people very close to me in the same situation as your friend. It made feel very torn to see that people who were very near and dear to me and inherently good people do what my ex did to me. Slightly different of course, but it was really difficult for me to reconcileZ
Those people who are near and dear to me still are. I separated our relationship from that of their marital problems and decisions. It wasn’t and hasn’t been easy though. Your friend could be an amazing person to you and friends around her, and still do something immoral to someone else. Some people can separate that and some can’t
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by may22
She said the pandemic hadn't helped but that she had gotten to an age (42) where she realized she wanted more, she was BFFs with her husband but nothing beyond that, that they'd been separated seven years ago for four months and she felt they never really worked through their issues after that, that they'd come back together out of convenience more than for their relationship. Turns out she'd had an A back then, left her H, the AP was also married and wouldn't leave his wife, that the A was incredibly intense and going back to her H was just really blah to be with someone she wasn't in love with.

How in the fuch is this an amazing person? She goes running back to her husband because her piece of $hit OM didn't have the b@lls to leave his W. Then decides to divorce her so called best friend because she can't get her affair high off her "best friend" because life has been tough in a pandemic. She is going to get everything she deserves you mark my words.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/14/21 08:25 PM
We humans are multi-faceted. At the same time I was acting like an arse to an ex 5-10yrs ago, I was simultaneously leading a charitable not-for-profit group and volunteering on both my kids' sports teams and at school. I am trying to lead a more consistent life. I've definitely faced similar challenges to May and Ginger reconciling how friends and acquaintances behave towards different people.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/15/21 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
How in the fuch is this an amazing person? .


Bro, you have the most Kantian take on the human experience. I mean to each his own, but real live people don't exist in a binary vacuum. No one is an objectively good or bad person, a moral or amoral person. People can simultaneously be horrible and wonderful to people in their lives, because people are ridiculously good at compartmentalizing, they are also particularly apt at hurting the people they love the most. And even a person who lived their life thoroughly selfishly can grow and change. As can a person who lived selflessly, they can change for the worse. Or just putting this out there because we see this a lot with LBHs, what about people who do really nice things for the payout, not because they are actually nice? Being a crappy spouse doesn't some how negate everything else some one is. All I wanted to say was that each of us needs to find the balance in being true to ourselves and being a friend when confronted in situations like this. Maybe watch The Good Place. They reference Kantian theory a little too much for my taste but it's an exceptional sitcom about this exact thing.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/15/21 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
How in the fuch is this an amazing person? .


Bro, you have the most Kantian take on the human experience. I mean to each his own, but real live people don't exist in a binary vacuum. No one is an objectively good or bad person, a moral or amoral person. People can simultaneously be horrible and wonderful to people in their lives, because people are ridiculously good at compartmentalizing, they are also particularly apt at hurting the people they love the most. And even a person who lived their life thoroughly selfishly can grow and change. As can a person who lived selflessly, they can change for the worse. Or just putting this out there because we see this a lot with LBHs, what about people who do really nice things for the payout, not because they are actually nice? Being a crappy spouse doesn't some how negate everything else some one is. All I wanted to say was that each of us needs to find the balance in being true to ourselves and being a friend when confronted in situations like this. Maybe watch The Good Place. They reference Kantian theory a little too much for my taste but it's an exceptional sitcom about this exact thing.


I think this is too holistic a look at "good and bad". You've mentioned this in other people's threads too. You are right, very few (maybe genociders(sic) like Stalin and Hitler) are pure bad. But I would submit that a bad person, that treats those that he loves well is still a BAD person. Take racists. They typically love and nurture their loved ones, but have a strong hatred towards people of other races. I would submit that no matter how wonderful they are to their loved ones, they are still "bad" people.

If your point is that what is good or bad to individuals is purely subjective (one person's good is another's bad and vice-versa), I can see that point. But I believe in an objective standard of right and wrong. Good and bad. So I think it is a righteous judgement to say that someone that committed their life to another person, but then goes and does the most intimate things two people can do with a third party, is a bad person. No matter how good they treat their mom or their kids, etc.

Now wayfarer, obviously right-minded people can have a disagreement on the fine points we are discussing here, so please do not think I am saying my opinion is superior to yours, because it is not. But I do question how you square someone that does bad things, but also some good ones, being simultaneously a good and bad person? A little leaven raises the whole lump.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/15/21 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
Originally Posted by LH19
How in the fuch is this an amazing person? .


Bro, you have the most Kantian take on the human experience. I mean to each his own, but real live people don't exist in a binary vacuum. No one is an objectively good or bad person, a moral or amoral person. People can simultaneously be horrible and wonderful to people in their lives, because people are ridiculously good at compartmentalizing, they are also particularly apt at hurting the people they love the most. And even a person who lived their life thoroughly selfishly can grow and change. As can a person who lived selflessly, they can change for the worse. Or just putting this out there because we see this a lot with LBHs, what about people who do really nice things for the payout, not because they are actually nice? Being a crappy spouse doesn't some how negate everything else some one is. All I wanted to say was that each of us needs to find the balance in being true to ourselves and being a friend when confronted in situations like this. Maybe watch The Good Place. They reference Kantian theory a little too much for my taste but it's an exceptional sitcom about this exact thing.

W,

I don't want to give you another reason to hate on men lol.

Amazing friend - sure
Amazing employee - ok
Amazing daughter - yep

Amazing person - sorry no can do not when you cheat on your spouse "best friend" use him and then D him

If it makes you feel any better I wouldn't classify myself as an amazing person but I would a friend. I've done too many bad things in my life.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/16/21 12:21 AM
Moral relativism is a requirement for both the cheater and one who stays with a cheater. It's pretty fascinating how it always ends up there, from a psychological standpoint.

The question here isn't really the quality of their character. It's your ability to tolerate the quality of their character, and what that says about your own character.
Posted By: IronWill Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/16/21 07:08 PM
Hi may

Interesting discussion going on here. People have a tendency to want to see things in either black or white. In reality life is many different shades of gray and perspective is everything.

It sounds like your friend is in crisis and is running - hard. The morality of it is subject to each individual and is most likely colored by their/our own life experiences. IMO i don't think its a bad thing to be a friend to someone if they are looking for help. As long as boundaries around your own life and situation are established.

Stay strong smile
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/16/21 08:01 PM
Wow, judgy, judgy. TBH a bit disappointing. I do try to keep in mind that everyone here has been deeply hurt and has needed to make their own meaning out of what has happened to them, but as this site is focused on self-improvement and growth, I have to say it does feel a bit off to hear some of this.

I'm with Wayfarer on this one. I have always believed in the ability of humans to grow and change and the power of forgiveness. In fact, in my own situation, I feel that belief is being tested-- why do I have a hard time applying this belief to my own life and my own husband, and forgiving him for his past actions? I resent, a bit, the implication that I (and other LBSs who reconcile) have pretzeled my own morals to allow for forgiveness, and that those actions somehow reflect on my own character for the worse. Or that I'm living in some fantasy la-la land, pretending my H is really not so bad but really will spend the rest of my life fearfully waiting for the other shoe to drop, all simply because I didn't choose D and am trying to make myself feel better about that decision. Sorry, I don't buy it. But whatever floats your boat and helps you sleep at night.

I have my MA in psychology and find human behavior fascinating-- how people can make choices so inconsistent with their own self-interest (good and bad), the power of the human brain to make meaning out of chaos, the impact of moral injury and post-traumatic growth. I think this entire site is a testament to the power of post-traumatic growth for those who look upon the BD as an opportunity to grow themselves rather than using it as ammunition to demonize their wayward spouse and condemn and judge others for their choices. It seems to me that the cheating spouses, who have inflicted significant moral injury on themselves, have even a deeper trauma to process than those of us who were merely along for the ride. How can that experience not be a catalyst for even greater growth?

The "people don't change" line is BS. Like WF, I've seen it happen, over and over, for the good and for the bad. My FIL has had his brain consumed by Fox News and has become a suspicious and bitter soul. It's sad. And how many people are completely transformed by parenthood? We shouldn't define ourselves by the past. Everyone can make a choice to be better, today. Understood that many don't make that choice. But please don't paint everyone with the same brush.

Steve, racists are hard. I struggle a lot here. I had a moment during the Trump administration regarding the separation of families at the border where I simply lost it and thought-- these people are evil. Pure evil. I also have the hardest time with anti-marriage-equality activists, who spend their own time and energy preventing other people from simply being happy. Strange and sad and wrong. However... can you imagine what their lives are like on the inside? Racists, too? How bitter and small and fearful they must be to cultivate such hatred in their own souls? Not to say that there shouldn't be consequences for wrong actions, or that I'd be interested in spending time with people like this. I deeply admire people who have the ability to see the human inside even those twisted and bitter souls. I feel I can know it is there in the abstract but when I see the horrible injustices and violence that springs from it, I move to more of an LH/Scout let's lock them all up and throw away the key. So I struggle here with judgment for sure.

Not trying to convince anyone here. Just sharing my own two cents because I can! smile

And if anyone cares about the original storyline here... my H and I talked over our friends' situation at length. Decided to reach out to the LBH and let him know we heard what is going on and we care and are there for him, invited him to come hang out some night he doesn't have his kids. He responded that he really appreciated it and we'll get a date together. Hoping we can be there for him as much as he needs it. I've also been texting a bit with his wife and will continue to be supportive as she needs as well.

Happy Friday,

May
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/16/21 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by may22
I resent, a bit, the implication that I (and other LBSs who reconcile) have pretzeled my own morals to allow for forgiveness, and that those actions somehow reflect on my own character for the worse. Or that I'm living in some fantasy la-la land, pretending my H is really not so bad but really will spend the rest of my life fearfully waiting for the other shoe to drop, all simply because I didn't choose D and am trying to make myself feel better about that decision.

So to go on record I am not in this camp. Humans make mistakes. I made my fare share. I am for reconciliation under certain circumstances even if there was an affair. I have posted many times what IMO there must be for a true reconciliation. I got lumped in with Scout although my views are clearly different.

My opinion about your friend doesn't change. Amazing people do not do those things to their so called best friend.

I find it interesting May that you are always giving us your resume. Because you have a master in psychology does your opinion have more validity?

Originally Posted by may22
My FIL has had his brain consumed by Fox News and has become a suspicious and bitter soul.

This sadly has happened to my mother. I wish there was something we could do about it.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/16/21 10:34 PM
I don't think that tolerating bad behaviour reflects negatively on anyone's character. I'm sorry if that was implied, it wasn't my intention.

My comment was intended to take the focus off the other person entirely. You can't control what they do, or who they are, so why bother trying to decipher if they are good or bad or anything in between. The only thing that matters is your response and being okay with what that says about you. If you can accept them and counsel them despite their values which clearly don't align with yours, that says a lot about your character in a positive way. It shows strength and forgiveness and tolerance. But do I also think it requires some mental gymnastics? Yes, I do.

I saw a close friend's profile recently on Tinder. He has a partner, a one year old, and a newborn baby. I don't know what my response should be in accordance with my values, so I haven't acted yet. But I would hope I'd show understanding at least, even if my decision was to end the friendship. I've certainly performed mental gymastics to explain and excuse it: he might have an open relationship, it's just harmless looking, maybe it's a fake profile with his photos. I can tell myself this, but my gut knows I am wrong. And my character won't let me sit comfortably with that.

These things ARE complicated. But I do believe in objective principles of right and wrong, and dislike the trend away from objective morality.

I'm sorry if my comments were too personal, May. You clearly trust your gut, and are sitting comfortably with that, which is all that matters.
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/17/21 04:48 AM
haha LH, didn't mean to try to shop my resume. More that this has been interesting to me for a long time. My opinion has no more validity than anyone else's, absolutely.

And on my friend... I guess I'll learn more when we see her H. The weird thing is that I probably would have considered myself a closer friend with her H than with her. It is all really sad. Their son is in my older daughter's class and she doesn't know about the D... which I think means he hasn't told anyone. It all just is sad, regardless.

Scout.. I really appreciate you clarifying. I agree, these things are incredibly complicated. And weird about your friend.

xx M
Posted By: LH19 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/17/21 09:23 AM
It’s very sad. I’m not even a person who doesn’t advocate divorce. In fact I’m helping my friend plan one now. He and is wife hate each other with a passion. Now if he were to tell me they were best friends but something was missing I would point him in another direction. I’m not saying at all that you should drop her as a friend my point is only she is not an amazing person. An amazing person would say “I can’t put my bf and my kids through this pain so let’s find a way to work this out”. Then she could always revisit when the kids are older.

The bottom line is your friends H shouldn’t want to be with a woman like this and maybe this is something you can help him see moving forward.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 04/21/21 04:30 AM
I'm with May and Wayfarer generally on this topic. I know I have changed and grown. So I have faith that all of us can. Even as I question my own H's character, I dwell on if he's who he is right now due to manifestations of fear of vulnerability or something else that his soul struggles with? We all are multi-faceted. We can all do bad things. I know I am not perfect. All of our paths are different and I think we all act and react in ways that even confuse ourselves, let alone others. I want to be open to forgiveness even if I struggle with it with my H. I can see why this conversation with your friend brought up the feelings it did for you May. I admire your support and care with your friend and her husband.

El
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/08/21 08:48 AM
Hi friends! Thought I'd update. I had a couple crazy weeks trying to button up everything I could at my last job, then a blissful week off. It was fantastic... H got me a hotel for a night ALONE and I took bubble baths and did yoga and slept in and had mimosas and room service and rented a cabana by the pool for the whole day. Read a novel and drank umbrella drinks. H and kids came by in the afternoon after school to hang out at the pool. It was soooo nice. Finally fully vaccinated too so had my hair cut for the first time in well over a year, had a massage, cleaned out my closet and got rid of a ton of stuff, generally just tried to really relax.

I started my new job on Monday and am totally beat-- I think a combination of the new job, meeting a million people, actually going into the office and being around people all day, and trying to learn a whole new business and triage all the various emergencies going on. They've been without a CEO since January and it was like everything was just waiting for me to come on board to vomit up four months plus of problems. I had planned on doing a lot of listening for the first few weeks (thanks, DB validating practice!) but may need to accelerate some actions or at least set ground rules and expectations sooner than I'd planned... anyway. it is a lot but I'm also loving really digging into something new.

Things with H are good. I generally feel like with me I'm one step back, two steps forward in my healing/forgiveness process. He has been very steady, continues to be open, caring, thoughtful, apologetic, non-defensive. A couple of months ago I told him he'd probably have to tell me he was sorry and he loved me every day for a year before I believed it, and he continues to do this maybe every other day or so. I'm still angry and hurt-- not like fire-breathing punching-bag angry, but part of me still has a hard time believing that H did what he did.

Our anniversary was during my week off. We went out to lunch and dinner ourselves. I got pretty angry with him at lunch, just thinking about the last few anniversaries-- he listened to how I felt, apologized, begged me really to stop thinking about the past and to focus on the now, told me he loved me, etc. I was able to set it aside for dinner and we had a nice time. We had this tradition before of choosing a song for our playlist every anniversary and I had decided not to say anything about it. Before the A, he was always the one to come up with a few songs for me to choose from and then during the A he didn't give a $hit about it (of course). I was curious if he'd remember and bring it up. He did, asked me on the way to lunch about it, had an idea for a song. It's funny in retrospect-- that conversation was what launched me into my angry recollection of the past three anniversaries, but now that I type it out i'm connecting that it was actually his loving behavior and doing what I'd hoped he would-- remembering the song tradition-- that spun me into that negative space. I'm pretty much giving myself a break for having those feelings because I come by them honestly, but I also don't want to sit in the space of negative reminiscing forever. I know my H thinks it is unhealthy and sincerely wishes I could let it go and focus more on the present.

After our anniversary and my negative reaction (which had the A on my mind for a few days) I decided to go back and read my thread from last year's anniversary, to see how things were different. They are very different. wow. I feel reluctantly grateful for the progress, the reluctance because there is still a big part of me that is angry it happened in the first place. I was very curious to know if I'd feel any fear or uneasiness reading back from that time, since it was just a few weeks after our anniversary last year that AP messaged him and he fell back off the wagon, but I don't. Gut check is clean.

I do believe he's 100% in this with me now, which is different from last year. I still feel like if he'd only actually truly cut everything off with her the first time around, I would be far less angry and more trusting now than I am. He feels like it was a process he had to go through, going to the very edge of separating and peering over the edge and realizing he that was not what he wanted in order to be wholly here and knowing in his heart that he wants to be here with me. I'm like, I guess, but there was significant additional damage done to me during that whole extra exploration process you did, and so that is now a part of our reality too that you'll have to deal with. A less understanding and trusting May than you would have had.

WF, I found a post you wrote me and WOW, it has even more resonance now than it did:

Originally Posted by wayfarer
You know you will have to let this go someday if you want that MR 2.0. My bff tells me this every time I get caught up in my anger or fear. And I'm starting to make it a mantra on my road to forgiveness. There is going to come a point in the future where you have to deal with your pain, and fear all alone without involving H any more. He can't be beholden to your process over the A forever. And that's a sh!tty thing to say. Because let's be real he should be. But if you want to move past this and get to that MR 2.0 in full there really will come a time when you have to be alone with those feelings and process them and not drag him in to it, because your negative feelings about the A are going to go on far longer than his negative feelings about reinvesting in the MR.

I remember reading this back then and thinking nah, no way, he's the one being slow... and he was. But I had a delayed reaction, I guess. And now I'm the one who can't let it go. I know this is my work to do. I'm just not sure exactly how to do it other than just doing what I'm doing and not trying to skip ahead.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/08/21 10:47 AM
As someone who was a pretty crappy husband for a longtime, I can give you this perspective: the worst feeling in the world is to truly and sincerely want true forgiveness and not be able to get it.

It sounds like he's truly and sincerely 180'd, as you say, is in it 100%, and wants desperately to have a fresh new start and to work on things from this point forward.

I forget if you are in IC or not, but you should be. To help you navigate the feelings and anger. And I'd also highly recommend finding a good MC, one that has experience helping couples heal from infidelity. Faith-based is my highest recommendation for both since they are pro-marriage and won't be as likely to push you towards D and being a WAW yourself.

In Dec. of 2018, a year after my own BD, with my W trying very hard to make up for the past, my anger and bitterness led me to almost walkaway myself. It was a weird feeling, almost as if someone else were in control of my thoughts and feelings. I had to take step back from the urge to blow things up and BD her, and just take it slow. It got better and I'm glad I was patient with myself because once I came through it I was ready to embrace and work hard on marriage 2.0 with her.

Just keep hanging in there and work on letting go of the anger and bitterness. Resentment is not conducive to moving onward and upward.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/10/21 07:04 AM
Hi May,

I'm sorry you're struggling a little. You're at least self-aware enough to realize it and what you need to do next. Anyway, Happy Mother's Day, sending ((Hugs)) and well-wishes your way.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/11/21 12:58 PM
May, I found this sticky on the piecing forum:

Michelle's Golden Rules

Immediately thought of you and your sitch:

Originally Posted by sgctxok
(The following is quoted from Michele on a previous KLA forum)

"1. The first Golden Rule, "Do real giving" talks about the importance of doing to others what others would have done unto them, a definite twist on the real Golden Rule. What do you think about this?

2. The second Golden Rule, "Don't forget to laugh," reminds you about the importance of humor in marriage. Can you think of a time when you solved a marital problem by using your sense of humor?

3. The third Golden Rule, "Listen to each other," reminds you about the importance of putting aside your commentaries, reactions, and defensiveness and just simply acknowledging your partner's point of view. What do you think about this idea?

4. The fourth Golden Rule, "Live by the stranger standard," discusses the importance of treating your spouse at least as well as you might a complete stranger. What do you think about this?

5. The fifth Golden Rule, "Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself," emphasizes the vast benefits of letting go and forgiving your partner. Do you find it difficult to forgive your partner when you feel wronged? What methods have you found helpful to move you beyond a lack of forgiveness? You can re-read the article I wrote on forgiveness, if that will help.

6. Can you think of any other inspirational Golden Rules that you would like to add to my list?

Well?
Michele"
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/11/21 01:00 PM
One more, MWD's article on Forgiveness, here at divorcebusting.com:

Forgiveness the gift you give yourself
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/12/21 01:53 PM
May, another thought. MWD has a book called Healing from Infidelity. You may want to check it out:

MWD's books
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/12/21 03:03 PM
Hello my dear May,

First and foremost check out what SteveLW has linked here for you. Digging through the old stuff to find good things about piecing is arduous and time consuming. He just saved you a lot of time and energy.

Next, yay for you on your week off and alone time. And holy h3ll did you walk into a sh!tstorm with that new job. I think it's going to be a really good thing for you in the long run, but I'm sure in the short term it'll be a headache. However I honestly think this is probably exactly what you need. If you have less bandwidth to expend the energy it takes to hang on to pain and fear of the past, perhaps this will help you along. You'll have no other choice than to focus on today and tomorrow instead of yesterday.

What I told you that previously about hanging on longer than your H, I was speaking from what my friend told me from the heart, and my own experience. ExH brought up my A constantly. Every fight. Every time he was left to his own thoughts for too long. It colored any conversation we had with any depth. It colored our s3x life. It was sprinkled in everything I did good or bad. I'm not saying you need to let this go tomorrow and forget about it. It was a very long drawn out A. You have every reason on the planet to be struggling along here. The thing is exactly how I feel and have felt about forgiveness in this situation or any other is fairly close to MWD's thoughts. The anger and fear imprison you and hold your spouse hostage in suspended animation. The fact is even if you left him you'd have to eventually forgive him. Not because he deserved it, but because you do. Forgiveness is pretty word for letting go. We like to pretend it's some kind of grand miraculous gesture. It's not. It's the act of choosing to no longer be chained by the actions of another. It's detachment in another form. I've forgiven my step-father because it's what's best for me. I've forgiven my mother. My ex-H. My current H. Not because any of them deserved it, but because all of the weight I had to bare holding on. IMHO it isn't so much let bygones be bygones as it is giving yourself permission to live your life without the actions of others holding you back.

My point with all this is H is trying, H is moving on and has every desire to move on WITH you. I think it's ok to sit in your feelings when they wash over you like that. I think it's ok to not forget about the lost years in your MR and why they were lost years. I think though that if you really want MR 2.0 that you have to be part of that process to. You have to make the choice to leave MR 1.0 behind. These sitches are like forest fires. The devastation is impossible to deny, but with time it all grows back sometimes even more beautifully than before. You weren't fortunate enough for it to have been a controlled burn. But this is the lot you've been dealt. Is it worth your time to focus on how you got to regrowth or is it time better spent cultivating what's left to be better than it was before?

Thinking of you often XOXOXO
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/19/21 04:26 AM
Hi Steve, CW, Wayfarer... thank you.

Steve, these resources are so helpful-- I really appreciate it. We're in the process of scheduling MC to see how that goes. Glass says it is better to just focus on MC if you can rather than having two processes going at the same time-- I'm not sure about that yet. H thinks I need an IC to help me process the anger. I'm not sure, think I'll see how it goes and go forward from there. The last time I was in IC it felt like she was more reinforcing my feelings than anything else-- it felt GREAT, of course, to have someone 100% in my corner, but not necessarily great for my M. Also, I partially feel like my H should have some level of connecting about my (hard-earned) feelings of anger and betrayal-- they shouldn't just be my problem that i process on my own.

Though I'm chewing on this and also wayfarer's comments. What is mine to work through, what is his, and what is ours? Why am I having such a hard time with the concept of forgiveness? Wayfarer, what you wrote about your exH bringing your A into every conversation... I cringed when I read that, because I know my H feels the same way right now about our life together. He could have written every single word. I WANT to get to forgiveness. I just don't know exactly how to do it. Maybe part of me is still scared to let go. And/or I don't feel my H has sufficiently sat in understanding just how $hitty his behavior was towards me and how it felt on my side to be betrayed by the one person in the world I thought was there for me no matter what.

My H thinks I keep moving the goal line, that he's giving me everything I asked for and I never want to focus on the positive, just the negative. For example: I spent more time on our anniversary reflected on the $hit way he had behaved during our last few anniversaries than feeling positive about the progress we'd made since then. True. Why do I do that?

Or, for whatever reason, even though he's told me he doesn't love her anymore, he loves me, he wishes it never happened, it was a horrible mistake and he wishes he could take it back and make different choices-- all the things I was wanting him to say-- it still doesn't feel like enough. I feel like I want him to realize and verbalize to me that he was mistaken when he thought the feelings that he had for her was love, that it was just a stupid sad middle-aged fantasy and he feels stupid and embarrassed that he even believed for a minute that it was "love."

He thinks it is unhealthy for me to be so focused on things he did or did not feel in the past. That I should focus on the present and also focus more on OUR relationship and how we feel about and treat each other today, not how he previously felt about someone else. Also, he can't authentically tell me right now that he thinks she's a stupid POS or that he didn't ever care about her at all, so won't, that maybe he'll get there eventually but he won't lie about it and so that is kind of where we are. Which when I'm feeling rational I can agree with. But also I have this other part of me that just isn't okay with the idea that he did have a fully-fledged relationship and care about someone else IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR MARRIAGE. Someone awhile back (Alison? I wish she was still around) suggested I might need a ritual to end M1.0. Maybe something like that to let me be okay with the fact that we weren't really married during his affair? (But I thought we were? It is all just still really anger-inducing for me.)

He is VERY motivated to get us to have these conversations in front of a trained professional. He told me he really really wants to talk about this, all of it, but thinks we really need to do it in MC rather than on our own, and I think he's right. So he has been in contact with the MC and working on scheduling (which was earlier a goalpost for me-- he'd been all over scheduling MC back when he wanted to check it off as a waypoint towards D, so I'd felt like it would mean something if he was the one to take the lead in scheduling MC for us. And now we're here, so I'm counting that as positive.)

Anyway. Forgiveness. Easier said than done. Will keep you guys updated on MC.

xx M
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/19/21 02:03 PM
May,
I read all of this like 3 times.

1. find a new IC that is marriage positive (Mine has been a huge help in me navigating the reconciliation and the early days of piecing when any mood change or tiff would make me cry because I felt like he was counting points against me. That was all me not him, he was in but I spent so much time being weighed against OW I couldn't let that pageant contest feeling go. She also helped me a lot with communicating and articulating my anger and sadness without "attacking" or seeming like I was doing so). The amount of anger and resentment you have can't be washed away but you sincerely wanting MR 2.0 but living in and holding on to MR 1.0 is a contradictory thought process and you need someone to guide you through this if you can't see yourself getting there on your own any time soon.

2.Do the ceremony do what ever you need to do to make your brain realize this is a new relationship this is a fresh start. His job is to let OW go without regret. He's done that. You're job is to let your anger go. You haven't. It's always been that way. You know how much I care about you, but these unrealistic expectations for him to hate OW or be disgusted by her is in all honesty, an immature requisite. If he's disgusted with himself. He's reached true remorse. You can't ask for more than that. It's unfair regardless of how awful and gross he had been. You can't hinge your forgiveness on unrealistic expectations. You can't hinge your forgiveness on him at all. It's not about him. It's about you.

3. Him wanting to resolve this through MC on his own fruition is one of the steps of R and piecing all the vets talk about. H is doing his work. What step in R and piecing do you think you can take to get one step closer to H on that bridge of piecing? Maybe baby steps, much like H took in the beginning here is what you need to move toward forgiveness. What baby step can you do? Maybe a viewing of What About Bob to take those baby step with a spoonful of sugar instead of swallowing that bitter pill dry?

Good luck, my dear. You got this. XOXOXO
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/19/21 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by may22
Hi Steve, CW, Wayfarer... thank you.

Steve, these resources are so helpful-- I really appreciate it. We're in the process of scheduling MC to see how that goes. Glass says it is better to just focus on MC if you can rather than having two processes going at the same time-- I'm not sure about that yet. H thinks I need an IC to help me process the anger. I'm not sure, think I'll see how it goes and go forward from there. The last time I was in IC it felt like she was more reinforcing my feelings than anything else-- it felt GREAT, of course, to have someone 100% in my corner, but not necessarily great for my M. Also, I partially feel like my H should have some level of connecting about my (hard-earned) feelings of anger and betrayal-- they shouldn't just be my problem that i process on my own.


Again, your anger and issues with the betrayal ARE yours. He cannot help you anymore than he has. MC will deal with that but I really really think a good, pro-marriage IC would do you a lot of good. It is HIS job to do everything he can from this moment forward to be completely committed and vested to the MR and to proving to you his loyalty. It is up to you to deal with your anger and PTSD related to the past, and healing from it.

Originally Posted by may22

Though I'm chewing on this and also wayfarer's comments. What is mine to work through, what is his, and what is ours? Why am I having such a hard time with the concept of forgiveness? Wayfarer, what you wrote about your exH bringing your A into every conversation... I cringed when I read that, because I know my H feels the same way right now about our life together. He could have written every single word. I WANT to get to forgiveness. I just don't know exactly how to do it. Maybe part of me is still scared to let go. And/or I don't feel my H has sufficiently sat in understanding just how $hitty his behavior was towards me and how it felt on my side to be betrayed by the one person in the world I thought was there for me no matter what.


PTSD. You are afraid to trust because last time you did you got your feelings crushed. So now you like the idea of your MR2.0, but you afraid to embrace it fully due to the last time. It is like touching a hot stove. I remember when I was 6, my 2 year-old sister put her hands on the hot oven door while my mom was baking something. Burnt both her palms pretty badly. She wouldn't touch the stove afterwards even when it was cool! You are the same way. You got your hands burned touching his oven, and now that his oven is safe and cool you are still afraid to touch it. A good IC can help you work through that.

Originally Posted by may22

My H thinks I keep moving the goal line, that he's giving me everything I asked for and I never want to focus on the positive, just the negative. For example: I spent more time on our anniversary reflected on the $hit way he had behaved during our last few anniversaries than feeling positive about the progress we'd made since then. True. Why do I do that?


See the last paragraph I typed. THat's why. You are remembering the hurt....and until you can get past that you will still hold him responsible for that hurt. Even though he's done everything in his power to make up for it.

Originally Posted by may22

Or, for whatever reason, even though he's told me he doesn't love her anymore, he loves me, he wishes it never happened, it was a horrible mistake and he wishes he could take it back and make different choices-- all the things I was wanting him to say-- it still doesn't feel like enough. I feel like I want him to realize and verbalize to me that he was mistaken when he thought the feelings that he had for her was love, that it was just a stupid sad middle-aged fantasy and he feels stupid and embarrassed that he even believed for a minute that it was "love."


Strange isn't it. In the thick of your sitch when he was cheating on you, you would have loved for him to come to you and said the above. Now he has said it you are having trouble getting over it. This is why I tell LBSs all the time that Ring and piecing isn't the holding hands, walking into the sunset under a God-given rainbow that we fantasize. It is hard, tough, arduous work. It will test you to the core. Some LBSs try it and decide it is too hard and they become the WAS (I almost did!). No one could blame you if it was too much to overcome and you couldn't do it. I think of Rachel after Ross made his "we were on a break" mistake, it was just too much for her to overcome. The thought of Ross with this girl, naked, doing what you should only be doing with the one your a committed to! Maybe you cannot get over it. And if you cannot then you have every right to make the choice to D and move forward with your life. He couldn't even blame you, even though he might be unhappy about it.

Originally Posted by may22

He thinks it is unhealthy for me to be so focused on things he did or did not feel in the past. That I should focus on the present and also focus more on OUR relationship and how we feel about and treat each other today, not how he previously felt about someone else. Also, he can't authentically tell me right now that he thinks she's a stupid POS or that he didn't ever care about her at all, so won't, that maybe he'll get there eventually but he won't lie about it and so that is kind of where we are. Which when I'm feeling rational I can agree with. But also I have this other part of me that just isn't okay with the idea that he did have a fully-fledged relationship and care about someone else IN THE MIDDLE OF OUR MARRIAGE. Someone awhile back (Alison? I wish she was still around) suggested I might need a ritual to end M1.0. Maybe something like that to let me be okay with the fact that we weren't really married during his affair? (But I thought we were? It is all just still really anger-inducing for me.)


I agree with him. It is unhealthy for you to be so focused on that. That is why I am so strongly advocating for IC. Maybe you will never be able to be with him and NOT focus on that. But you owe it to yourself, not to him, to do everything you can to see if you can get past all of it. IC is one of those ways. See my above paragraph.

As far as the ritual to end M1.0, whatever works I am for. Maybe a 2nd marriage ceremony? A recommit to marriage vows? But the problem is to me is that those are band-aids, They treat the symptoms, not the underlying disease. I think you need IC to get over the PTSD.

Originally Posted by may22

He is VERY motivated to get us to have these conversations in front of a trained professional. He told me he really really wants to talk about this, all of it, but thinks we really need to do it in MC rather than on our own, and I think he's right. So he has been in contact with the MC and working on scheduling (which was earlier a goalpost for me-- he'd been all over scheduling MC back when he wanted to check it off as a waypoint towards D, so I'd felt like it would mean something if he was the one to take the lead in scheduling MC for us. And now we're here, so I'm counting that as positive.)


MC cannot be just having these conversations. MC should be about reconnecting, moving forward, and looking to the future. Maybe one session early on to deal with the A, but the problem is that if you do not move past that conversation in MC, then MC will just be a recurring reminder of the A. I see MC working for two fully committed spouses. Right now I do not see you being fully committed. I see you being a potential WAS yourself now. I feel that until you can get over the PTSD, get over the A, and heal from the hurt that MC is going to devolve into him saying: "We had a good week, we did X, Y, and Z." and you responding by saying "Yeah, but, the A!" That will get you no where. MC with IC. Or IC for you first is the only way I see you moving past all of the hurt and betrayal.

Originally Posted by may22

Anyway. Forgiveness. Easier said than done. Will keep you guys updated on MC.


Forgiveness is for you. Forgiveness doesn't mean the offense committer doesn't have consequences. I think of families that have forgiven a murderer for murdering a loved one. Their forgiveness doesn't get them out of their life sentence! I am a Christian. I believe in forgiveness from sin, but the sin of murder, even forgiven by God, still has Earthly consequences!

So you could forgive him (let go of the hurt, anger, and bitterness) but still D him. Forgiveness works outside of consequences. I've been on record myself that if my W had actually had a PA, not just an EA, I would have D'd her. I still feel that way.

Originally Posted by may22

xx M


Anyway, lots to digest. Hang in there May. One way or another you will move forward!
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/19/21 04:15 PM
Hi May,

There is a podcast called "Other People's Problems" by CBC and there is a client called Franklin who's W had an A and left him. The podcast is the therapy sessions and in reading your post, I remembered a part of the segment that I think will resonate with you and is along the lines of what SteveLW is expressing above. I listened again this am so I could write it down as close as I could to put it on here. They are discussing Franklin dating again and struggling with trust, but I think it still applies as M2.0 would be a new beginning, similar to a new relationship.

Season 2, Episode 6: "Hurt leads to fear. Insulating you from getting hurt again. The thing you are afraid of has already happened, and it was awful, and it hurt, AND you lived through it. Hold with you that you are afraid and it comes from the hurt. This has no bearing on what happens in the future. It’s your brain, and it is wired to protect you from what hurt you before. So in a relationship where you have been wounded, your brain is saying, stay away, but the paradox is that is the only place where you can heal.

You need to come to a point where you can see that a relationship is what it is, without the FEAR telling you what it is. So if things are going well, I want you to see that things are going well, and if things are not going well, I want you to be able to see that things are not going well. Not with fear filtering everything.

Be aware that you are afraid. And be aware that the thing you are afraid of has already happened. Be aware of those two things at the same time. Fear is a rational fear (no fear is irrational). It’s our brains way of protecting us. But we don’t want the fear to take over, but it comes from the place of hurt. We need to help heal you so that you don’t become afraid in places where you don’t need to be afraid anymore."

You H will be impatient and that has to be seperate from your healing. Your situation took time to happen, and it will take at least that long if not more to heal or work through what has happened. And SteveLW is right that this is your hurt, and your fear. It is what you have to work on. I do think that some working through the infidelity will happen in MC. But those parts are healing only aspects of what happened. When it comes to your fear, you have to work on that part alone. No one can take that on for you. It's internal. Your H can provide you with understanding and support, but it's up to you to do that work for you. And it's critical because even if you can't make it through to M2.0 with your H, the fear will prevent you from being able to move forward with any relationship you may have in the future.

I see this as seperate from forgiveness. Or in my case, accepting that my H's affair happened and choosing to not focus on the pain and trying to win him back is my way of doing the act of detachment for myself. But for me the word forgiveness feels different than that, as if I am letting him know that I am okay, as if I am sharing that with him. I am not. I am just doing the act of moving forward, and I'm doing it all for me.

I know for myself that I have been very open and trusting in my relationships up until now. So I am fully aware that I have this fear now myself, and I will need to work my way through it too. What has happened to us is the biggest betrayal there is. Recognize that it's monumental. It's hard. It hurts deeply. It won't heal in a day. But both of us are still here. We are walking, talking and loving. We survived the worst part of it. Yes, this part is still hard, but this part has hope. Hope for something better (for you M2.0 and for me my future before me without my H). Accept the fear, but don't let it rule you. I know its easier said than done. But you are doing great! Just keep moving forward day by day and with the fear guiding you but not ruling you.

xo

El
Posted By: may22 Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/20/21 07:13 AM
Wayfarer, Steve, Elbereth-- thank you from the bottom of my heart. You guys have been amazing and I truly appreciate all the love, time and energy you've put into my sitch and those of countless others. Steve, you said something to me very very early on that really helped about doubting that my H was only in an EA and I don't know that I would have been able to handle the final BD if it hadn't been for your sage advice. Elbereth, you are such a strong and incredible spirit-- I'm so glad you are around and am so confident you are going to be stronger than before because of this situation. CW, if you're checking in here, I'm so grateful to you for your unfailing positive outlook. Blu, if you ever check back in here, thank you for everything-- I don't know what I would have done without you. Wayfarer... you are my people. If you ever feel up to it, Sage left some breadcrumbs on your thread many moons ago and we'd love to be in touch with you if you are open to that. You have helped me more than you could ever possibly know. Thank you.

I'm just over the negativity and bullying here-- I know it isn't any of you, but I don't need it in my life and there is no escaping it on this board. I'll probably check in here and there but am taking a break. Love to you all.

xx M
Posted By: markw Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/20/21 08:26 AM
Thank you Elbereth for transcribing the podcast - its very interesting when looking at the betrayal from a different angle.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/20/21 10:59 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Wayfarer, Steve, Elbereth-- thank you from the bottom of my heart. You guys have been amazing and I truly appreciate all the love, time and energy you've put into my sitch and those of countless others. Steve, you said something to me very very early on that really helped about doubting that my H was only in an EA and I don't know that I would have been able to handle the final BD if it hadn't been for your sage advice. Elbereth, you are such a strong and incredible spirit-- I'm so glad you are around and am so confident you are going to be stronger than before because of this situation. CW, if you're checking in here, I'm so grateful to you for your unfailing positive outlook. Blu, if you ever check back in here, thank you for everything-- I don't know what I would have done without you. Wayfarer... you are my people. If you ever feel up to it, Sage left some breadcrumbs on your thread many moons ago and we'd love to be in touch with you if you are open to that. You have helped me more than you could ever possibly know. Thank you.

I'm just over the negativity and bullying here-- I know it isn't any of you, but I don't need it in my life and there is no escaping it on this board. I'll probably check in here and there but am taking a break. Love to you all.

xx M


May, I hate to see you go and will be wondering what you decide! Peace and prayers to you.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/20/21 05:37 PM
May I don't know if you'll peek back or not but I had been planning to dig through my thread to find those breadcrumbs for while. I knew they were there. So yes I'm game. I'm moving into our new home so it might be a little bit before I have time to excavate and suss it out. I understand why you're checking out. I'm probably deucing out of here soon myself. Steve and ovr have a lot of piecing advice that I need as well as Blu but I'm not sure the payout outweighs the pay in. We'll talk soon.

XOXOXO
Posted By: Traveler Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/20/21 05:37 PM
May, my day will be a tad less bright hearing less from you. You’ve received some personal, off-topic criticisms so I get where you’re coming from. Sending love and well-wishes to you and yours.
Posted By: job Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/20/21 06:33 PM
Please start a new thread and link this thread to your new one.
Posted By: Elbereth Re: Still taking it a day at a time (2) - 05/21/21 03:37 PM
Oh May. This makes me sad. I’m going to miss your wisdom and friendship terribly. I personally have benefited from your advice. Thank you so much for that. (((May)))
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