Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: SaltyDog Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/15/20 10:35 PM
Continuing my journey on text replies and Xmas wrapping...
Previous thread

Recap:

Wife initiated a separation but wanted to to keep things open. Still says she loves me (but not in love), still affectionate, and all that stuff. But also likely having an EA and she's now on a trip where is might have become a PA (don't know). She's also joined dating sites because she just wants to meet and talk to people (yeah). So mixed messages. Says she'd like for me to date her, wants to keep family together and do things, etc. Have her cake and eat it too.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/15/20 10:43 PM
Any new thoughts on ending the nesting situation?

This is some wayward wife's dream scenario. I knew a real-life couple who did this. Ended terribly for the one who wanted to keep the relationship alive (frequently finding used condoms upset him).

Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/15/20 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Any new thoughts on ending the nesting situation?

In the real-life situations I've known, this has been a wayward wife's dream scenario.


No, not really. Looking back I got sucked into it and she did a helluva job selling me on it. Now we got a 9 month lease on the place so kinda stuck and doubt she'd give it up at this point. And there's the issue of me actually enjoying my time there (not because of Tinder dates!) but to have some peace away from all the craziness that is Covid online school with 3 kids and a dog. The dog isn't in online school, just the kids. When I'm there I can read uninterrupted, workout, meditate, and just work on myself. She's told me it is hard for her when I am there though because she is wondering what I'M doing and has thoughts that bother her. But that doesn't mean much because it isn't enough to stop her doing what she's doing. So my thinking is that we're stuck with the studio, but our interactions as a "family" need to change. No more family dinners. No more coming over and helping out with something. And be "separated" in the real sense vs. fantasy. The only ringer is Xmas. Like I said I don't want this to ruin it for the kids and want it to be as normal as possible since there's a good chance it is the last we have together as a family. So any big changes in the separation will need to wait until after. Unless another bomb gets dropped in the meantime.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/15/20 11:05 PM
Ginger and LH, point taken about that being dating in my 20s. The last time I dated was I my 20s, next year I’ll be 40. That attitude will be something I look more into, thanks for the advice.

Salty, sorry for the hijack. Just to confirm, You and the W stay at the same extra apartment when each of you is not with the kids? ie you don’t have one each?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/15/20 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Salty, sorry for the hijack. Just to confirm, You and the W stay at the same extra apartment when each of you is not with the kids? ie you don’t have one each?

Yes. The original idea was to get a place for both of us to work on ourselves outside of the house with all the distractions. At that time, the idea of going on dating sites as part of the "working on ourselves" wasn't on the table explicitly. So I go there for a week, she is at home with the boys, and then we swap. Usually we do it on a Sunday where we will have a family dinner.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 12:01 AM
How do you feel about the thought of her having a man there in the week she is by herself?

I hate the thought of even being inside my W’s apartment knowing that she has OM there in the regular
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
How do you feel about the thought of her having a man there in the week she is by herself?

I hate the thought of even being inside my W’s apartment knowing that she has OM there in the regular

I know this will sound naive, but I'm certain that hasn't happened there (yet). The potential OM is in the state where she is now, and that's a different story about whether anything has happened. My guess is that is has. I'm still grappling with the idea and what I will do if/when it comes out. I don't want to ask, because as we discussed before she's going to either lie or be pushed away. In the event that a PA is confirmed, my thought is I will end things. Of course that's easier said than done being a "nice guy."
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 12:42 AM
Yo Salty do not worry about pushing her away. She’s already gone. Things typically need to get worse before they get better in these situations.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Yo Salty do not worry about pushing her away. She’s already gone. Things typically need to get worse before they get better in these situations.

I know you're right. The thing that's killing me now is Xmas and the boys and can I put on a happy face around her (and her mom and step dad who will be here, hooray!) and make it through it without losing my sh!t. The day after Xmas I'm already booked to get out of town, but that seems like a long way away.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 02:14 AM
Hi SaltyDog,

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
The thing that's killing me now is Xmas and the boys and can I put on a happy face around her (and her mom and step dad who will be here, hooray!) and make it through it without losing my sh!t.

That's a great goal--putting on a happy face for Christmas! I would amend it slightly--a happy face around your boys makes sense, but you don't need to put on a show for your stbxw or her parents.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 02:24 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
I would amend it slightly--a happy face around your boys makes sense, but you don't need to put on a show for your stbxw or her parents.
Good point - I can do that. I wonder about her parents because they love me. I don't see her telling them anything more than we're separated. Her mom still chats with me on FB and I am pretty sure they'll be gutted if they found out she's doing what I'm guessing she's doing.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 06:58 AM
My XW's parents liked me. They may have been gutted, but they moved on quickly. It's their daughter.

I agree with the others. I wouldn't respond to that text--especially if you have a WW. It seems like you'll respond because you are still at that stage.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:02 AM
Quote
In the meantime, another question. So in years past she has handled the majority of the Xmas wrapping duties because A) I hate wrapping presents and B) I suck at wrapping presents. So we have all the presents for the kids being wrapped and I was thinking me wrapping them would be a 180 - thoughts?


Wrap the presents. You are old enough to learn how.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:03 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Any new thoughts on ending the nesting situation?

This is some wayward wife's dream scenario. I knew a real-life couple who did this. Ended terribly for the one who wanted to keep the relationship alive (frequently finding used condoms upset him).


Ouch!
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 03:19 PM
So I responded (you all knew I would!) but at least I waited 9 hours FWIW. I just said that yes we had a good time and within a minute she responded "cool!" and that's been it. She went and liked all the photos I've put on Facebook of me and the boys.

Definitely feeling more defeated this morning. Just had a nice little breakdown but luckily the kids are all asleep. More and more I wake up to the fact that things are really bad and going to get worse. I was in denial with the way she would be so nice to me and reach out to me, but she was just pitying me. So now I'm moving more into the angry phase I guess. I'm also really wondering if it is worth it. Because right now in some ways I don't think so, but in other ways I can't imagine it not working out. Got me wondering - how many people around here who have reconciled went on to live happily ever after? Or was it just a temporary fix and eventually things took their course? It seems like most are in the "I'm divorced now but happier than ever camp" which is both frightening and encouraging at the same time. I'm just wondering how long do I continue this before I realize I'm torturing myself for no good reason and instead just be the one to end it.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
So I responded (you all knew I would!) but at least I waited 9 hours FWIW.

Wow she must have been on pins and needles lol.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I just said that yes we had a good time and within a minute she responded "cool!" and that's been it. She went and liked all the photos I've put on Facebook of me and the boys.

It's never the response your looking for that is why it pointless because you have expectations.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Definitely feeling more defeated this morning. Just had a nice little breakdown but luckily the kids are all asleep.

This is good salty good. This will continue for more then likely years.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
More and more I wake up to the fact that things are really bad and going to get worse.

Yes so prepare yourself. It ha to get worse before it gets better.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I was in denial with the way she would be so nice to me and reach out to me, but she was just pitying me.

You are a wise man Salty dog. You don't need her fuching pity.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
It seems like most are in the "I'm divorced now but happier than ever camp" which is both frightening and encouraging at the same time.

Although it's impossible for you to see at the time, this is 100% survivable no matter how it goes. I've been happier divorced than I was for years being married. I 100% believe in marriage, and I miss the feeling and comfort of "being married" but I do not miss my ex at all, and her behavior should not have been tolerated for as long as it was. At the time I couldn't see it, I thought she was the most wonderful woman ever, and that certainly I could fix this. I was wrong on both counts.

This is the value of hind sight, and unfortunately for most people, you can't absorb it until you're ready.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
So I responded (you all knew I would!) but at least I waited 9 hours FWIW. I just said that yes we had a good time and within a minute she responded "cool!" and that's been it. She went and liked all the photos I've put on Facebook of me and the boys.

Definitely feeling more defeated this morning. Just had a nice little breakdown but luckily the kids are all asleep. More and more I wake up to the fact that things are really bad and going to get worse. I was in denial with the way she would be so nice to me and reach out to me, but she was just pitying me. So now I'm moving more into the angry phase I guess. I'm also really wondering if it is worth it. Because right now in some ways I don't think so, but in other ways I can't imagine it not working out. Got me wondering - how many people around here who have reconciled went on to live happily ever after? Or was it just a temporary fix and eventually things took their course? It seems like most are in the "I'm divorced now but happier than ever camp" which is both frightening and encouraging at the same time. I'm just wondering how long do I continue this before I realize I'm torturing myself for no good reason and instead just be the one to end it.


Salty, it is within your power to pull the plug and go file for D yourself anytime. We tell LBSs that all the time. I encourage you to do that once you reach the point where you are okay with being D, are tired of waiting for your WAS, and decide you want to move on with your life. But not before. And certainly not as a ploy to try to "wake her up".

But yes, there are a lot of posters here that ended up D'd and went on to happiness post D. But it is because they did the work of focusing on themselves, GAL, 180ing and becoming the best version of themselves they can be, and detaching and learning to be happy by yourself. Those that try to short cut that usually do not stay around because they are miserable.

But we also have a group of people that went on to save their MR, but they that group tends to leave the board. Occasionally we get updates from them, as we just recently did from a former poster that did end up saving his MR. A lot of people come here in crisis, but once the crisis is past, either way, they tend to leave the board.

The key here is Salty that whether you save your MR, or you don't. Your happiness is your own responsibility! That is why R2C always says to never stop DBing! Even if you save your MR, you continue to GAL, to improve yourself, and to be healthily detached (some call it self-differentiation, you can google self-differentiation in marriage). The gift we all go on BD was to be awakened and to stop sleep-walking through life! I know my life since the middle of 2018 has been way better than it was prior to BD. That is the one dirty little secret most LBS refuse to face. More than likely they were pretty miserable themselves before the D bomb got dropped on them.

Only you know when the time is right to pull the plug, but you will know it.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 06:28 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Salty, it is within your power to pull the plug and go file for D yourself anytime. We tell LBSs that all the time. I encourage you to do that once you reach the point where you are okay with being D, are tired of waiting for your WAS, and decide you want to move on with your life. But not before. And certainly not as a ploy to try to "wake her up".
No, I wouldn't use that as a ploy and didn't even think of it that way before you mentioned it. Last night and this morning were just rough and I wanted to end things to hopefully end the pain. Which won't, I know that, but it gives you a twisted sense of power and control when you feel like you have none over the situation.
Originally Posted by Steve85
The gift we all go on BD was to be awakened and to stop sleep-walking through life! I know my life since the middle of 2018 has been way better than it was prior to BD. That is the one dirty little secret most LBS refuse to face. More than likely they were pretty miserable themselves before the D bomb got dropped on them.

I read through my journal last night and it was eye opening how miserable I was. Which seems dumb since it is MY journal. But it was like reading someone else's and thinking "why are you staying with her?" Of course the flip side is I tend to journal when I'm upset so what I'm reading isn't a complete representation of the relationship but a view of all the sh!t.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Only you know when the time is right to pull the plug, but you will know it.
I hope you're right because right now I don't "know" how I feel from hour to hour and I sure don't trust how I feel. But I guess as long as there is ambiguity and not certainty it is worth sticking it out.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
So I responded (you all knew I would!) but at least I waited 9 hours FWIW. I just said that yes we had a good time and within a minute she responded "cool!" and that's been it. She went and liked all the photos I've put on Facebook of me and the boys.

SaltyDog, props for waiting 9 hours when your comfort zone was 1-2 hours. That's progress! Now that you see she wasn't shocked or on pins and needles, you may be able to act even stronger next time.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 06:59 PM
Just got a message from her - she got a reminder about our MC appointment on Friday. She wasn't planning on joining because she's out of town and the video-conferencing only allows 1 person to join but asked if I was going to go, and if not we would need to cancel.

One time in the past where I wasn't able to join she put me on speaker and we did the session that way. She obviously isn't brining that up as an option. I am planning on attending no matter what. Just wondering if I should throw out there a way for her to join as well when I respond or just say "I will attend." and leave it at that.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:07 PM
SD,

You know the answer to your question.

MC while she is having an A is a complete waste of money. No more MC until you are piecing your marriage. You should be in IC and working on your value and self worth.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
She went and liked all the photos I've put on Facebook of me and the boys.


This means absolutely nothing, so don't read anything into it. My XW did this until I quit FB (which I don't regret one bit) on the day of our divorce. She'd like every photo that included one of our daughters. Pictures of just me rarely got a like.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by harvey
Pictures of just me rarely got a like.

Well maybe she didn't like the pictures.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
SD,

You know the answer to your question.

MC while she is having an A is a complete waste of money. No more MC until you are piecing your marriage. You should be in IC and working on your value and self worth.

I didn't realize that about MC. I am in IC and have weekly appointments set up.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:35 PM
Hi SaltyDog,

Going to MC when she's not invested is a common rookie move.

"I've canceled it."
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Just got a message from her - she got a reminder about our MC appointment on Friday. She wasn't planning on joining because she's out of town and the video-conferencing only allows 1 person to join but asked if I was going to go, and if not we would need to cancel.

One time in the past where I wasn't able to join she put me on speaker and we did the session that way. She obviously isn't brining that up as an option. I am planning on attending no matter what. Just wondering if I should throw out there a way for her to join as well when I respond or just say "I will attend." and leave it at that.


"I will attend" is perfect. She has made her decision already known.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by harvey
Pictures of just me rarely got a like.

Well maybe she didn't like the pictures.


She didn't like who was in the picture. smile
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi SaltyDog,

Going to MC when she's not invested is a common rookie move.

"I've canceled it."

Better or worse - the above or ccing the W on my message to counselor saying we need to cancel and not responding to her message?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
"I will attend" is perfect. She has made her decision already known.

Steve throwing the curve ball!!

My original thought was talking to anyone is a good idea and even though she's a MC I thought she could have some advice for me. I didn't even think of cancelling until it was recommended. Now I'm torn.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:52 PM
It's ok to use your MC as your IC. Unless you already have an IC then just cancel it.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 07:55 PM
lol @ SaltyDog, I wouldn't stress, sounds like either way this session won't be an MC session.

(Keep in mind "MC only when she's committed" for the future.)
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by Steve85
"I will attend" is perfect. She has made her decision already known.

Steve throwing the curve ball!!

My original thought was talking to anyone is a good idea and even though she's a MC I thought she could have some advice for me. I didn't even think of cancelling until it was recommended. Now I'm torn.


The general guidance is to not attend MC with a wife that isn't committed to the marriage. That is the case in 90% of the couples that go to MC, and why MC has such a low rate of saving marriages.

There are exceptions. I went against traditional thinking and my W and I attended MC. BUT we got lucky in that the MC saw my W had one foot out the door and she focused on me, and my 180s. It was like IC with my W present. Until my W got to the point where she said she was leaning towards staying rather than going, then the MC transitioned into more traditional MC sessions for us.

The biggest problem is that most WAWs agree to go just to check it off the list: 'yep, we tried MC' Cancelling is a fine option. In fact I advocate you responding with "I have decided the MC is a waste of time at this point, so I will be cancelling all future sessions. I plan on attending IC to work on myself."
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 08:33 PM
I decided to go, not to work on the marriage as much as to just to talk to a professional who has heard both sides of our story. I figure it won't hurt anything and our counselor has been a straight shooter so far.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 11:05 PM
I just took the next 2 days off of work. I'm just a wreck today and can't stop crying. Nothing has changed, but for whatever reason I can't deal with it all today.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/16/20 11:13 PM
And just got another message:

"I know that you're quiet and or busy. Just letting you know Julie (a friend) is on her way to get me. We are going out for coffee and she will drop me off at my mom's."
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I just took the next 2 days off of work. I'm just a wreck today and can't stop crying. Nothing has changed, but for whatever reason I can't deal with it all today.


Sorry to hear you're feeling like this Salty. Its ok to cry and feel what you feel.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I decided to go, not to work on the marriage as much as to just to talk to a professional who has heard both sides of our story. I figure it won't hurt anything and our counselor has been a straight shooter so far.


I made the classic mistake of getting my W to an MC session, hoping it would fix everything. In hindsight it was crazy to think it would do anything given that she was regularly sleeping over at OM's house. The MC tried his best for 2 hours and I genuinely thought we had a chance, but when he said dump the OM for 6 months and just try, all she said was getting back together is 100% off the table. I somehow convinced her to come to a second session, she even sat there and booked it with me. Predictably, she didn't show up, I went anyway. It was useful, the MC gave me the advice he would have given me anyway, it was prepaid so seemed silly not to go. I got something out of it.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I decided to go, not to work on the marriage as much as to just to talk to a professional who has heard both sides of our story. I figure it won't hurt anything and our counselor has been a straight shooter so far.


I made the classic mistake of getting my W to an MC session, hoping it would fix everything. In hindsight it was crazy to think it would do anything given that she was regularly sleeping over at OM's house. The MC tried his best for 2 hours and I genuinely thought we had a chance, but when he said dump the OM for 6 months and just try, all she said was getting back together is 100% off the table. I somehow convinced her to come to a second session, she even sat there and booked it with me. Predictably, she didn't show up, I went anyway. It was useful, the MC gave me the advice he would have given me anyway, it was prepaid so seemed silly not to go. I got something out of it.
It is interesting because she was the one to suggest MC, find the therapist, set up the appointment, etc. But now, as other have noted, it was most likely to check off "I tried counseling" off her list.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
But now, as other have noted, it was most likely to check off "I tried counseling" off her list.


Mine went with the intention of using it to learn to separate and co-parent amicably. I hope you find it helpful going along solo. And keep going Salty, trust me that it does get easier. Like anything, effort gets results.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 01:00 AM
SD,

I’m sorry you’re struggling man this is very difficult stuff especially around the holidays. Like Bent said it will get easier but you are going to have some rough days ahead. Be patient with yourself. You’ll come out of this a better person for sure. Keep your chin up.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 01:20 AM
She followed her text up with another message asking about meeting up with my best friend. He's supposed to drop off Xmas presents for her to bring back and there was some miscommunication. After waiting another hour I went with:

"Thanks for letting me know and say hello to Julie for me. I'll check with Matt."

Other than the fact I shouldn't have replied at all (I can feel the eye rolls!) how was that?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
SD,

I’m sorry you’re struggling man this is very difficult stuff especially around the holidays. Like Bent said it will get easier but you are going to have some rough days ahead. Be patient with yourself. You’ll come out of this a better person for sure. Keep your chin up.

Thank you. Wrapping the presents might not have been a good idea since they are now all around my office as a reminder of the holidays! lol.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 03:24 PM
It's a new day, it's a new dawn, and I'm feeling better but far from good. One thing I've been struggling with is what to say or do when we do talk. It's not been 5 days without speaking to each other, the longest we've ever gone, and I know she's going to ask what's going on because she knows something is up. I obviously am not going to tell her about DBing or anything like that but wondering where the sweet spot is between outright lying ("I'm awesome, things are great, just been busy!") and telling the truth ("I've been an absolute wreck some days that hides in his office so the boys don't see him crying.") Is it just "I've been busy"? Because she'll know that's bullsh!t and I'm hiding something or lying. I know I shouldn't be worrying about what ifs in the future but if I don't have a gameplan I'm likely to screw things up - like they say "luck favors the prepared mind."
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
She followed her text up with another message asking about meeting up with my best friend. He's supposed to drop off Xmas presents for her to bring back and there was some miscommunication. After waiting another hour I went with:

"Thanks for letting me know and say hello to Julie for me. I'll check with Matt."

Other than the fact I shouldn't have replied at all (I can feel the eye rolls!) how was that?


She pulls the string, your limb moves.

It wasn't a bad response, but your instincts are right: no response would have been better.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 03:40 PM
SD

Relax and breathe. " I've been busy" is perfect. Incidentally it SHOULDN'T be a lie.

You can't screw things up unless you beg, plead or pursue.

Lack of self-control is the #1 enemy of DB. If self-control were easy, no one would smoke, drink, or be overweight. It’s very hard, but that's what it takes to turn things around, commitment to being counter-intuitive and fighting your impulses.

Going the other way is the only thing that may affect your spouse. The shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction. The very best path is the minute your partner says they want out you smile, say "good luck with that", hand them a box of their stuff, and go live a kick-@ss life of your own.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
It's a new day, it's a new dawn, and I'm feeling better but far from good. One thing I've been struggling with is what to say or do when we do talk. It's not been 5 days without speaking to each other, the longest we've ever gone, and I know she's going to ask what's going on because she knows something is up. I obviously am not going to tell her about DBing or anything like that but wondering where the sweet spot is between outright lying ("I'm awesome, things are great, just been busy!") and telling the truth ("I've been an absolute wreck some days that hides in his office so the boys don't see him crying.") Is it just "I've been busy"? Because she'll know that's bullsh!t and I'm hiding something or lying. I know I shouldn't be worrying about what ifs in the future but if I don't have a gameplan I'm likely to screw things up - like they say "luck favors the prepared mind."


"I've been busy."

Then shut up, listen and validate. (Read the validation thread.) Most LBSs say way too much.

If at any point it gets disrespectful on her end, you end the call. "I refuse to be treated this way." THen walk away or hang-up.

TO be honest SD, I am guessing she isn't really all that interested in what you've been doing.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
SD Relax and breathe. " I've been busy" is perfect. Incidentally it SHOULDN'T be a lie.
It's not a lie in that I HAVE been busy, but it is a lie in that me being busy is the reason I didn't respond to her. That was intentional. Maybe it's just semantics but it is gnawing at me.

Originally Posted by LH19
Lack of self-control is the #1 enemy of DB. If self-control were easy, no one would smoke, drink, or be overweight. It’s very hard, but that's what it takes to turn things around, commitment to being counter-intuitive and fighting your impulses.
Quit smoking 7 years ago after 25 years of smoking, haven't drank since the Tinder incident, and have lost 10 lbs in the last month. So I don't have any excuses not to have self control here.

Originally Posted by LH19
You can't screw things up unless you beg, plead or pursue.
I don't plan on that. I am not under any illusions that will help. My worry is on the other side - anger, resentment, jealousy, and a general sense of FU. I need to stay aloof but goddamn it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
If at any point it gets disrespectful on her end, you end the call. "I refuse to be treated this way." THen walk away or hang-up.

I don't see that happening - at least not yet I guess - because that's not her style. In many ways she's been loving and supportive through this (self interests in mind likely, but still genuine tears at times) so I don't see her being disrespectful.

Originally Posted by Steve85
TO be honest SD, I am guessing she isn't really all that interested in what you've been doing.
Interested in what I'm doing? No, I agree. Wondering why I'm acting differently all of the sudden and being "quiet?" I disagree. This is foreign to her. Now, she might not care too much, but she's definitely thinking something is up.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Quit smoking 7 years ago after 25 years of smoking, haven't drank since the Tinder incident, and have lost 10 lbs in the last month. So I don't have any excuses not to have self control here.



Whoa. You have been dry for what, a week? And all LBSs lose tons of weight. It comes with the territory. Eating and snacking just aren't a priority when you are obsessing over how to save your marriage.

Just read something that I already knew, but it is still so eye-opening. Rutting bucks lose 25% of their body weight during the rut. The rut usually lasts 6-8 weeks. In that time bucks barely eat. Their waking hours are consumed with finding and breeding "hot" (ie in season) does, and fighting off their competition. (Hmmm, sounds a lot like LBSs after bomb day!) They then spend the post-rut trying to fatten up again to prepare for the harsh winter months when food is scarce.

So the self-control doesn't come into play in losing weight during the thick of your sitch, it does in not gaining it all back once everything is settled.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by Steve85
If at any point it gets disrespectful on her end, you end the call. "I refuse to be treated this way." THen walk away or hang-up.

I don't see that happening - at least not yet I guess - because that's not her style. In many ways she's been loving and supportive through this (self interests in mind likely, but still genuine tears at times) so I don't see her being disrespectful.

Originally Posted by Steve85
TO be honest SD, I am guessing she isn't really all that interested in what you've been doing.
Interested in what I'm doing? No, I agree. Wondering why I'm acting differently all of the sudden and being "quiet?" I disagree. This is foreign to her. Now, she might not care too much, but she's definitely thinking something is up.


You will be surprised what she is capable in the weeks to come. We all were with our WASs.

And her wondering why you are different isn't interest in what you are doing, it is trying to figure out why suddenly she is losing control over you. Most WASs, and almost all WSs go through a period like that. "Hmmm, usually when I pull the string, his arm moves. Well I just yanked the string and nothing. WHAT IS GOING ON?" This is especially true when you are still entrenched as her plan B. And make no mistake you are her plan B. If things with OM do not work out then she will want to fall back into her safety net. Not sure about you but being anyone's consolation prize is not for me. And one of the best things LBSs can do is to pull that net out from under their WAS. A monkey doesn't jump from the branch they are on, until they've identified another branch that can support them. If you start to remove that branch from underneath her then she might start having second thoughts.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Whoa. You have been dry for what, a week?

Sadly, that's the longest I've gone without a drink in a very long time.

Originally Posted by Steve85
And all LBSs lose tons of weight. It comes with the territory. Eating and snacking just aren't a priority when you are obsessing over how to save your marriage.
Good point, and it helps that my appetite is gone. But also working out, jiu-jitsu, yoga, and doing keto is helping.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
You will be surprised what she is capable in the weeks to come. We all were with our WASs.

Yeah, you guys definitely have me worried about that and I know I'm being naïve in a lot of ways.

Quote
And her wondering why you are different isn't interest in what you are doing, it is trying to figure out why suddenly she is losing control over you. Most WASs, and almost all WSs go through a period like that. "Hmmm, usually when I pull the string, his arm moves. Well I just yanked the string and nothing. WHAT IS GOING ON?" This is especially true when you are still entrenched as her plan B. And make no mistake you are her plan B. If things with OM do not work out then she will want to fall back into her safety net. Not sure about you but being anyone's consolation prize is not for me. And one of the best things LBSs can do is to pull that net out from under their WAS. A monkey doesn't jump from the branch they are on, until they've identified another branch that can support them. If you start to remove that branch from underneath her then she might start having second thoughts.
Ok, that makes sense - the difference between wondering and being interested. And no, I don't want to be plan B.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
.I don't plan on that. I am not under any illusions that will help. My worry is on the other side - anger, resentment, jealousy, and a general sense of FU. I need to stay aloof but goddamn it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.

This is good. What is stopping you?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
.I don't plan on that. I am not under any illusions that will help. My worry is on the other side - anger, resentment, jealousy, and a general sense of FU. I need to stay aloof but goddamn it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.

This is good. What is stopping you?

I thought it was frowned upon? Reading through other threads I saw a lot of recommendations not to confront or do things along those lines and to just keep eating sh!t sandwiches.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:47 PM
You are cherry picking info Salty Dog. You would never hear me say that. The only time I advise against it is when a person isn't going to follow through with consequences which is 99% of the time. That is why there are few recons. I told you in the beginning you had a small window to maybe turn this around.

Arguments in favor of letting it slide:
1) You don't make things worse between you than they are now
2) You don't tip your hand that you've been snooping

Arguments in favor of NOT letting it slide:
1) You get the elephant out of the room, which will be a relief when it's out in the open
2) Depending on how you handle it you demonstrate strength and establish a boundary about how you will allow yourself to be treated

If you choose to confront her, I would just make sure your expectations are set appropriately. If you're expecting remorse, an apology, or an admission of guilt you won't get it.

Here's what will happen:

1) She'll deny it, the more you push the more she'll dig in
2) She will demand to know where you're getting your information
3) If you tell her you snooped, she'll get angry at you for that, tell you that you betrayed her trust and make you the bad guy
4) She will make an effort to lock you out of whatever you have access to.
5) She will deepen her relationship with OM in response to things with you getting worse.

That's what will happen, but that's not necessarily a bad thing -- you will need to make this worse before it can get better.

If you choose to confront her, here's what I want you to do:

1) Tell her you know about her relationship with OM and that you consider it to be a betrayal
2) You will not accept being with someone who is in a relationship with someone else, therefore you want her to ( whatever you want consequences)

(Think about what you're going to do if she says "no")

3) Think about anything else you want to do -- if she's texting him on a phone you're paying for, tell her you're going to cancel her mobile plan/phone and she can go get her own if she wants to use it to text with OM

The key things you want to go for here are to come across as showing strength and standing up for yourself. Secondly, you don't want to come across as controlling. The message to her is that she can do whatever she wants, but if she wants to keep up this relationship with OM then she will not be married to you, or using your mobile plan, etc. etc.

Establish some boundaries about what you will accept and then *stick to them and enforce them at all costs* it's the best thing you can do.

Prepare yourself for the fact that this will temporarily make things worse between you. Think about it and mentally prepare for it, how will you act after the confrontation? How will you handle yourself? Start practicing for that in advance. Strength is the key here.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 04:57 PM
Hi SaltyDog,

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I thought it was frowned upon? Reading through other threads I saw a lot of recommendations not to confront or do things along those lines and to just keep eating sh!t sandwiches.

Usually, the person doing the confronting gives speeches about how they won’t tolerate an EA or PA but then fail to take action. They look weaker and less attractive than ever. Then there are the people who are wrong or uncertain about an OM, who add snooping and paranoia to their list of issues. Confrontation requires some certainty and hard actions.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi SaltyDog,

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I thought it was frowned upon? Reading through other threads I saw a lot of recommendations not to confront or do things along those lines and to just keep eating sh!t sandwiches.

Usually, the person doing the confronting gives speeches about how they won’t tolerate an EA or PA but then fail to take action. They look weaker and less attractive than ever. Then there are the people who are wrong or uncertain about an OM, who add snooping and paranoia to their list of issues. Confrontation requires some certainty and hard actions.


I would add that it isn't a choice between confronting and eating crap sandwiches. You can NOT do both.

Confronting is pressure and pursuit. Refusing to eat crap sandwiches is standing up for yourself appropriately when you are faced with disrespectful behavior.

See, LBS will twist DBing into being an excuse for what they want to do. Deep down you want to confront, even if it is not the best option. So you will trick yourself into that being the way you DB. Do not trick yourself this way SD. Back off, give her time and space. Focus on yourself and your kids. Get better at GAL.

The LBSs we see here that struggle the most are the LBSs that do the worst job at GAL.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:13 PM
P.S. If you do HAVE to confront, do not turn it into a discussion. Simply tell her "I know what is going on." She will pry, ask you for details, etc. Do not give in. Leave it at "I know". Then get busy DBing.

Also, if you do confront, do so without expectations. Most LBSs think that confronting a cheating spouse will be like catching a child in the act of disobedience. That they will be sorry and open to your lecture about doing it anymore. WASs/WSs are not like that. They might be sorry they got caught, but they will continue to lie in the face of evidence. They will continue to deny like there is no tomorrow. They will turn the tables on you: "You've be snooping on me?!? HOW DARE YOU!" (As if snooping on a spouse is somehow worse than cheating on your spouse! HA!) It never goes the way you expect it to.

So if you think she will have a big "come to Jesus" moment when you confront you will be sorely disappointed.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
2) You don't tip your hand that you've been snooping

The thing is I've stopped snooping but she still leaves obvious breadcrumbs. She told me she had stopped Tinder but I don't think she realizes a green icon pops up next to your name if you've been active within 24 hours. Back before I deleted the app, it was obvious she hadn't stopped. Going through the bank statements, which I always have done because I've gotten screwed in the past with false charges, and seeing charges for other dating sites. Amazon popping up "recently viewed" items that I didn't look at and are obviously not gifts for me. Etc. I feel like I can call her on a lot of activities without even snooping. The other thing is I can't prove anything about the OM, other than it's completely obvious, because I haven't snooped. All signs point to it, but there's no smoking gun. There are smoking guns of being on dating sites, for sure, and that is enough for me to call out though. The real sad thing is if she's on dating sites AND with OM. Jesus.

Quote
2) Depending on how you handle it you demonstrate strength and establish a boundary about how you will allow yourself to be treated
This x1000! This is what I want.

Quote
If you choose to confront her, I would just make sure your expectations are set appropriately. If you're expecting remorse, an apology, or an admission of guilt you won't get it.
I don't really have expectations because I have no idea what to expect. Usually when confronted she doubles down on whatever it is she's done and justifies it. I just want her to know I'm not an idiot and I'm not going to continue things this way.

Quote
2) You will not accept being with someone who is in a relationship with someone else, therefore you want her to ( whatever you want consequences)

(Think about what you're going to do if she says "no")
Here's where I stumble. My first thought is the consequence will be "I'm done." However, is that true? Part of me says Hell yes it is! On the other hand I've read don't do anything along the lines of ending things for 3 months after so you can make a more informed decision. At this time my thought is the consequence will be - no more family dinners, no more "playing" family, and absolutely nobody else allowed in the studio. How to enforce the last one, still working on. However, I am much more observant than she is and she's not as good at hiding things as she thinks she is.

Quote
3) Think about anything else you want to do -- if she's texting him on a phone you're paying for, tell her you're going to cancel her mobile plan/phone and she can go get her own if she wants to use it to text with OM
This is something else I'm trying to work out. Our finances are 100% combined and we both make good money, so it isn't as if I am the bread-winner in this situation. If anything I'm thinking of setting up a separate account in my name and switching my direct deposit over to it. But not there yet.

Quote
Prepare yourself for the fact that this will temporarily make things worse between you. Think about it and mentally prepare for it, how will you act after the confrontation? How will you handle yourself? Start practicing for that in advance. Strength is the key here.

Thank you for this. I am going to start practicing and I am going to be patient. Like I keep saying, I don't want to ruin Xmas any more than it already is for the kids. I will put on a happy face, be aloof, play along, and prepare. I figure the new year is best time for a change (if I can make it that long) and that will give me time to hopefully get all my ducks in a row.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog

Quote
3) Think about anything else you want to do -- if she's texting him on a phone you're paying for, tell her you're going to cancel her mobile plan/phone and she can go get her own if she wants to use it to text with OM
This is something else I'm trying to work out. Our finances are 100% combined and we both make good money, so it isn't as if I am the bread-winner in this situation. If anything I'm thinking of setting up a separate account in my name and switching my direct deposit over to it. But not there yet.


Be careful with this. In some states/municipalities, this can be seen as trying to cut her off from the rest of the world. I highly suggest consulting with an attorney before taking steps like this. Especially if you are the sole or primary breadwinner.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:22 PM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Then there are the people who are wrong or uncertain about an OM, who add snooping and paranoia to their list of issues. Confrontation requires some certainty and hard actions.

My thought then is to confront regarding still being on dating sites (which I know without snooping) and don't mention suspicions of OM for now because I don't have hard evidence, only a sh!t ton of circumstantial.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Then there are the people who are wrong or uncertain about an OM, who add snooping and paranoia to their list of issues. Confrontation requires some certainty and hard actions.

My thought then is to confront regarding still being on dating sites (which I know without snooping) and don't mention suspicions of OM for now because I don't have hard evidence, only a sh!t ton of circumstantial.



Yeah I wouldn't do this. This is trying to control her and she will rebel against it. Likely you will get the answer you want to hear. "I deleted my dating site accounts." ANd she will just go deeper underground with her dating activities.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:26 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
I would add that it isn't a choice between confronting and eating crap sandwiches. You can NOT do both.

Confronting is pressure and pursuit. Refusing to eat crap sandwiches is standing up for yourself appropriately when you are faced with disrespectful behavior.

So using the dating sites as an example. My goal is to confront her on it (she said she had stopped) and letting her know I refuse to continue with the current arrangement and any MCing unless it stops. If she says no, then we go from this friendly separation and nesting to being 100% separated. No contact unless it involves the kids.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by CWarrior
Then there are the people who are wrong or uncertain about an OM, who add snooping and paranoia to their list of issues. Confrontation requires some certainty and hard actions.

My thought then is to confront regarding still being on dating sites (which I know without snooping) and don't mention suspicions of OM for now because I don't have hard evidence, only a sh!t ton of circumstantial.



Yeah I wouldn't do this. This is trying to control her and she will rebel against it. Likely you will get the answer you want to hear. "I deleted my dating site accounts." ANd she will just go deeper underground with her dating activities.

But at least I've set a boundary, no? This is where I get confused in the setting boundaries vs. eating sh!t sandwiches. Between standing up for myself and playing games by trying to pretend like her being on dating sites doesn't bother me. I feel like it is disrespectful to me. And this isn't even taking into account the OM. I've been a "nice guy" for so long I'm fighting the urge to swing to the other side of the spectrum.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:36 PM
And another text asking "Are you OK, you seem awfully quiet."
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:45 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
This is where I get confused in the setting boundaries vs. eating sh!t sandwiches. Between standing up for myself and playing games by trying to pretend like her being on dating sites doesn't bother me. I feel like it is disrespectful to me. And this isn't even taking into account the OM. I've been a "nice guy" for so long I'm fighting the urge to swing to the other side of the spectrum.


So what is stopping you? This is rhetorical because i know the answer. The question is what are you afraid of Salty Dog?
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
This is where I get confused in the setting boundaries vs. eating sh!t sandwiches. Between standing up for myself and playing games by trying to pretend like her being on dating sites doesn't bother me. I feel like it is disrespectful to me. And this isn't even taking into account the OM. I've been a "nice guy" for so long I'm fighting the urge to swing to the other side of the spectrum.


So what is stopping you? This is rhetorical because i know the answer. The question is what are you afraid of Salty Dog?
Making things worse I guess, which is stupid because they're going to get worse anyway, might as well get worse with some self-respect.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 05:56 PM
You know what you have to do Salty Dog. Is this harsh? Does it seem crazy? Is it like stepping off a cliff? I guarantee you'll look back two years from now and regret that you didn't do it -- I guarantee that.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:10 PM
And another - "It feels like you're intentionally ignoring me."
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:15 PM
Salty, boundaries aren't about getting her to stop doing what she is doing. LBS confuse boundary setting with manipulating their WAS all the time. Boundaries are about you taking action.

For instance, you might set a boundary that you never will tolerate being cheated on. "If she has a PA, I will go talk to an attorney and file for D." You dont tell her that, you just set it for yourself and when it is crossed you take the action you set forth.

As far as the text a simple, 'Nothing is wrong, just busy. " will suffice.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:16 PM
She'll get the hint eventually. Took my exW about 8 months to get the hint.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:19 PM
I went with "I'm good, just busy." and got an "OK" in return.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:23 PM
I wouldn't say anything about the OM or the dating sites. You are sure she has an OM, and you are worried about her being on dating sites? Seems odd.

If you do it, just know that confronting her will not help in reconciliation. As said above, there will be no "come to Jesus" moment for her. I think you should just assume she has an OM. Then, your decision is: if she is having a PA, is that a deal breaker for you?

You are struggling with detachment. You really need to focus on that. Get to a point where nothing she does affects your emotional equilibrium. You're going to have a kick ass life either way.

Detach, GAL (stay active), 180s (work on the things that need working on)
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Wondering why I'm acting differently all of the sudden and being "quiet?" I disagree. This is foreign to her. Now, she might not care too much, but she's definitely thinking something is up.


I understand why you feel like "I'm busy" isn't enough of an answer, and in fact might come off to her as you being rude to her. Personally I think a better response is "I feel like we both need some time and space from each other to think about things." Because that is the truth even if it may not be what you want, that IS what she wants, and that is a response she can respect.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
The thing is I've stopped snooping but she still leaves obvious breadcrumbs. She told me she had stopped Tinder but I don't think she realizes a green icon pops up next to your name if you've been active within 24 hours. Back before I deleted the app, it was obvious she hadn't stopped. Going through the bank statements, which I always have done because I've gotten screwed in the past with false charges, and seeing charges for other dating sites. Amazon popping up "recently viewed" items that I didn't look at and are obviously not gifts for me. Etc. I feel like I can call her on a lot of activities without even snooping. The other thing is I can't prove anything about the OM, other than it's completely obvious, because I haven't snooped. All signs point to it, but there's no smoking gun. There are smoking guns of being on dating sites, for sure, and that is enough for me to call out though. The real sad thing is if she's on dating sites AND with OM. Jesus.


A lot of us get hung up wondering whether the WAS is having an affair or not, or multiple affairs or whatever. Snooping rarely gives you any answers, it just causes more confusion because you see all these little bits and pieces and you don't know what to make of it. The advice I usually give on this is if you really have to know, then hire a PI and find out once and for all. I'd say the chances are very good you are not going to like what the PI discovers, but maybe you need that to help you detach and move on.

I went about it a little differently, I asked myself "would I still stand for my M if I absolutely knew she was having an A" and I decided that I would indeed. I know it's a deal-killer for a lot of people but it wasn't for me. Neither of us were anywhere close to being virgins when we got married so it seemed like a forgivable offense. Once I came to the conclusion that I would still stand, then it no longer mattered to me whether she was having an A or not. I basically assumed the worst- yes she is having an A, and I acted accordingly. It was actually a huge weight off my shoulders, one less thing to worry about. To this day (nearly 10 years later) I still don't know if she was having an A or not!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I went with "I'm good, just busy." and got an "OK" in return.

So how does her pity make you feel SD?
Posted By: Oceangl Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:33 PM
I read that you want to confront her...to tell her what she is doing and how it is wrong, etc. The truth thought is that it will be futile because she doesn't care. You cant logic or reason with her.

Read some of sandi2's posts. She was the wayward. Remember, women are attracted to "power." Not unhealthy power, but confidence, someone who knows who they are. Be careful not to come across as needy and pleading. Being nice to her won't change anything. There's also a good chance she wants to keep you available in the background as a Plan B.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I went with "I'm good, just busy." and got an "OK" in return.

So how does her pity make you feel SD?
That's not pity from her - that's "yeah right."
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by harvey
You are struggling with detachment. You really need to focus on that. Get to a point where nothing she does affects your emotional equilibrium. You're going to have a kick ass life either way.

You're 100% right on all counts. I'm trying to detach more and GAL but between our state being shut back down due to Covid, it raining 10 of the past 11 days with no break on the horizon, and having to coordinate 3 kids school schedules, it's been tough. I'm focusing on reading right now - just lots and lots of different books.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:39 PM
By the way SD, the better I got at detachment and GAL, the more my W would ask "What's wrong?" (We were IHS, btw.) I would always cheerily say "Nothing is wrong." Then I would go on with what I was doing, whistling happily. The more I backed off and gave her the time and space she had requested, the more frequent the "what's wrong?" question came. 2 months into my committing to try to DB as well as I could, she would actually come looking for me! "Whatcha doing?" "Oh just organizing my tools." Understand, she had no interest in where I was and what I was doing for months prior to BD.

That loss of control over my feelings and how I behaved started to get her curious about what was different. As long as I was following her around asking her questions, wanting to know what she was up to, she felt in control. This is not new stuff. This is distance-pursuit dynamic to the hilt! If you haven't read that thread, go read it. It is very eye-opening.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Wondering why I'm acting differently all of the sudden and being "quiet?" I disagree. This is foreign to her. Now, she might not care too much, but she's definitely thinking something is up.


I understand why you feel like "I'm busy" isn't enough of an answer, and in fact might come off to her as you being rude to her. Personally I think a better response is "I feel like we both need some time and space from each other to think about things." Because that is the truth even if it may not be what you want, that IS what she wants, and that is a response she can respect.
I like that and think that's where I'm heading. Right now it is just deciding is that before or after Xmas.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
I went about it a little differently, I asked myself "would I still stand for my M if I absolutely knew she was having an A" and I decided that I would indeed. I know it's a deal-killer for a lot of people but it wasn't for me. Neither of us were anywhere close to being virgins when we got married so it seemed like a forgivable offense. Once I came to the conclusion that I would still stand, then it no longer mattered to me whether she was having an A or not. I basically assumed the worst- yes she is having an A, and I acted accordingly. It was actually a huge weight off my shoulders, one less thing to worry about. To this day (nearly 10 years later) I still don't know if she was having an A or not!
Thank you for sharing that.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You're 100% right on all counts. I'm trying to detach more and GAL but between our state being shut back down due to Covid, it raining 10 of the past 11 days with no break on the horizon, and having to coordinate 3 kids school schedules, it's been tough. I'm focusing on reading right now - just lots and lots of different books.


It's tough. I'd find something to keep me busy. It wasn't always something physical or outdoors or with other people. I'd create little projects when I had nothing to do. I made great headway on organizing my music library and organizing my photo album. I did household things that I had put off--like installing a dimmer switch. I'd call somebody from a small circle of close family/friends that knew about my sitch. I started researching and trying cigars that I hadn't tried before. Not necessarily a great habit, but something about a good cigar puts me in a good headspace. smile
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by harvey
You are struggling with detachment. You really need to focus on that. Get to a point where nothing she does affects your emotional equilibrium. You're going to have a kick ass life either way.

You're 100% right on all counts. I'm trying to detach more and GAL but between our state being shut back down due to Covid, it raining 10 of the past 11 days with no break on the horizon, and having to coordinate 3 kids school schedules, it's been tough. I'm focusing on reading right now - just lots and lots of different books.


LBSs spend a lot of energy making excuses as to why they can't GAL. All I can tell you is that where there is a will, there is a way.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I went with "I'm good, just busy." and got an "OK" in return.

So how does her pity make you feel SD?
That's not pity from her - that's "yeah right."

When I say say "pity" I mean she feels sorry for you so she's checking in on you.
Posted By: OnlyBent Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
If you choose to confront her, I would just make sure your expectations are set appropriately. If you're expecting remorse, an apology, or an admission of guilt you won't get it.

Here's what will happen:

1) She'll deny it, the more you push the more she'll dig in
2) She will demand to know where you're getting your information
3) If you tell her you snooped, she'll get angry at you for that, tell you that you betrayed her trust and make you the bad guy
4) She will make an effort to lock you out of whatever you have access to.
5) She will deepen her relationship with OM in response to things with you getting worse.


Salty, if you're ever wondering about the accuracy or the validity of the advice you receive on here, let me tell you, I confronted. Guess what happened, all 5 of the above list. Guess what didn't happen, remorse, apology or guilt. Instead she told me I was a piece of garbage for reading her messages and told everyone I 'hacked' her instagram. 'Hacked' on an ipad we both shared and knew the pass code to.

Confronting was the right thing for me to do, however, what I didn't do was be strong after it. We continued to live together, I continued to pursue, beg, plead. In fact she went and stayed at OM's the very next night whilst I looked after our S. It makes me sick thinking about how pathetic I acted. The purpose of these boards is to learn from those who have experience what you are going through. in some instances you will learn the right course of action because of what has worked fro some. A lot of the time, you will see what not to do because of someone here.

Go read Wolfman's threads, that should convince you to take on board the advice, because I can feel that you want to fight it and do what will ease your anxiety, not what will help you get through this.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 10:55 PM
Unfortunately so many don’t take the advice given and have to learn the hard way.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 11:35 PM


Originally Posted by SaltyDog
it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.
Why are you putting up with it?
Posted By: Traveler Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/17/20 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You're 100% right on all counts. I'm trying to detach more and GAL but between our state being shut back down due to Covid, it raining 10 of the past 11 days with no break on the horizon, and having to coordinate 3 kids school schedules, it's been tough. I'm focusing on reading right now - just lots and lots of different books.

Hi SaltyDog, it's rainy near me, too. Last weekend I had to drive 4hrs to get to a place where a day in the mountains was possible with mist instead of rain and wet snow. Other days I have less time to climb/hike/cycle and wear a rain coat. My local Pilates studio has outdoor classes under a tarp--people wear jackets for the cold in our classes now! I also have a small bodyweight routine I do when my kids are at appointments. Fortunately, I have a good set of weights at home. GAL in 2020!

I miss leading groups outdoors. I hope that resumes in summer 2021.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Unfortunately so many don’t take the advice given and have to learn the hard way.


Originally Posted by OnlyBent
Go read Wolfman's threads, that should convince you to take on board the advice, because I can feel that you want to fight it and do what will ease your anxiety, not what will help you get through this.


It's not my intention at all to ignore the advice or fight it. I will ask questions though, which I think is fair. And for the most part I've tried to implement the advice I've gotten. For now though my #1 priority is Xmas and the kids, since this is likely to be the last one as a "family" we have - as f'ed up as that is. In the meantime I am not pleading or pursuing, I've stopped snooping, I've made huge changes in the way I communicate to her (maybe not all the way to where I need to be, but that will come after the new year), and I'm doing my best to GAL.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 12:45 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change


Originally Posted by SaltyDog
it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.
Why are you putting up with it?

It goes back to whether or not to confront her with it all vs. just moving on and focusing 100% on me. Looking at the responses in this thread there still isn't a clear cut answer. Some say it will just make her get better at hiding things, others say it is needed to push things forward to the inevitable.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by CWarrior
[/quote]
Hi SaltyDog, it's rainy near me, too. Last weekend I had to drive 4hrs to get to a place where a day in the mountains was possible with mist instead of rain and wet snow. Other days I have less time to climb/hike/cycle and wear a rain coat. My local Pilates studio has outdoor classes under a tarp--people wear jackets for the cold in our classes now! I also have a small bodyweight routine I do when my kids are at appointments. Fortunately, I have a good set of weights at home. GAL in 2020!

I miss leading groups outdoors. I hope that resumes in summer 2021.
I'm working on it. I'm going away for 3 days after Xmas, took the boys down to the ocean last weekend, might take them to the snow tomorrow, jiu jitsu class, hikes, etc. I'll find other things to fill the gaps as well, it just [censored] because my county is going to "Extreme Risk" starting tomorrow which is gonna shut things down. I'll keep at it though.
Posted By: harvey Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
It's not my intention at all to ignore the advice or fight it. I will ask questions though, which I think is fair. And for the most part I've tried to implement the advice I've gotten. For now though my #1 priority is Xmas and the kids, since this is likely to be the last one as a "family" we have - as f'ed up as that is. In the meantime I am not pleading or pursuing, I've stopped snooping, I've made huge changes in the way I communicate to her (maybe not all the way to where I need to be, but that will come after the new year), and I'm doing my best to GAL.


Good job! I have hopes for you, danielson. smile

I think people get confused. This site is called "divorce busting". I think the advice on this site gives you the best chance to do that. However, people need to realize that by the time they get to this site their marriage, as they know it, is over. If you don't adhere to the advice, I think it's about 10% chance that you can break the divorce. However, even if you DB well, your chances of breaking the divorce is still well under 50%. I know that is shocking to some, but I believe it's the truth. Quite honestly, it's lower if you are a man trying to break an unwanted divorce.

The positive is that if you DB well, you may not break the divorce, but you will have saved yourself and you are likely to be a hell of a catch in your next relationship.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by Ready2Change


Originally Posted by SaltyDog
it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.
Why are you putting up with it?

It goes back to whether or not to confront her with it all vs. just moving on and focusing 100% on me. Looking at the responses in this thread there still isn't a clear cut answer. Some say it will just make her get better at hiding things, others say it is needed to push things forward to the inevitable.

Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by Ready2Change


Originally Posted by SaltyDog
it every part of me wants to call out all her BS and let her know I know what's going on and I'm not going to put up with it.
Why are you putting up with it?

It goes back to whether or not to confront her with it all vs. just moving on and focusing 100% on me. Looking at the responses in this thread there still isn't a clear cut answer. Some say it will just make her get better at hiding things, others say it is needed to push things forward to the inevitable.


So first off I agree you should wait until after Christmas. Second SD you have to decide what you’re more comfortable with death by 1,000 paper cuts or have your head chopped off. I have the gift of hindsight to pass on to new posters. 99% of the WWs aren’t worth standing for you just can’t see it right now. You won’t confront right now because you’re not strong enough. You can’t even ignore one text from her. That’s ok. I understand. What I am trying to say is you will regret not taking my advice a couple years from now. That I can guarantee.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 12:08 PM
SD,

So here’s is what I believe. Life will present you with people and opportunities to show you where you are not free. In essence grow or suffer. What’s you get that then life becomes easy. You are suffering right now because you want your wife to be something that she is not right now. It a nutshell you are living in as much in a fantasy world then she is right now. So the question is do you want to grow or do you want to suffer?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Originally Posted by CWarrior

Hi SaltyDog, it's rainy near me, too. Last weekend I had to drive 4hrs to get to a place where a day in the mountains was possible with mist instead of rain and wet snow. Other days I have less time to climb/hike/cycle and wear a rain coat. My local Pilates studio has outdoor classes under a tarp--people wear jackets for the cold in our classes now! I also have a small bodyweight routine I do when my kids are at appointments. Fortunately, I have a good set of weights at home. GAL in 2020!

I miss leading groups outdoors. I hope that resumes in summer 2021.
I'm working on it. I'm going away for 3 days after Xmas, took the boys down to the ocean last weekend, might take them to the snow tomorrow, jiu jitsu class, hikes, etc. I'll find other things to fill the gaps as well, it just [censored] because my county is going to "Extreme Risk" starting tomorrow which is gonna shut things down. I'll keep at it though.
[/quote]

SD, more of this! There are always challenges to GAL. Mainly your own desire to sit and stew. But the LBS that stay busy and GAL the best are the ones that come through the pain faster.

Also, sometimes the WAS sees you out being the person you were when they met you and that excites and attracts them. You do not GAL for this purpose, but this might end up being a side-effect.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 02:29 PM
I plan to continue to grow and do the right things. Perhaps I'm using Xmas as an excuse to not go full-on DB right now. Time will tell once the new year is here and the excuse will be gone. In the meantime I am making the changes I can make for now and doing my best to GAL. I got another text last night asking why I'm being so curt and another asking why I'm so distant. So even in the small changes I've implemented, I can see the impact which encourages me to continue and do more. I don't want the death of a 1000 paper cuts, but I do want to live a lie for the next week and enjoy this time with my family as much as I can. I'm not worried about getting hopes up, mis-reading her actions, or anything like that because in the back of my head, I know. And that is what will ground me.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:07 PM
When she senses that she's losing control over you, she will fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll reach out accusing you of being distant. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel worse than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.

Often people mistake the reaching out on the part of the WAW as interest -- that they want you back and that's why they're engaging you. Don't be fooled -- you being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.

It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You've already proven that you'll answer her every text. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.

She needs to fully believe that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.

You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.

At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.

Salty Dog, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything she told you about your faults was nonsense to justify her affairs. When you then respond to her complaints you validate them, so she feels even more entitled to have her affair.

You've been trying to "nice your way back" for several months.

It's not working, it will never work.

You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.

You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.

She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.

Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:11 PM
REmember, DBing is most successful the earlier and the more consistently you apply it. It is no guarantee, but your odds go up exponentially wither early and consistent. If LBSs could handle BD and the aftermath by DBing immediately, then there were be fewer Ds.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
When she senses that she's losing control over you, she will fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try.

You mean like the "I'm missing you" text I just got?

Originally Posted by LH19
Often people mistake the reaching out on the part of the WAW as interest -- that they want you back and that's why they're engaging you. Don't be fooled -- you being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.
I won't be. I can fully see how I'm plan B at this point and I don't want to be plan B.
Originally Posted by LH19
It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You've already proven that you'll answer her every text. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.

And I will. Just not yet.
Posted By: SaltyDog Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
REmember, DBing is most successful the earlier and the more consistently you apply it. It is no guarantee, but your odds go up exponentially wither early and consistent. If LBSs could handle BD and the aftermath by DBing immediately, then there were be fewer Ds.

I'm not going to abandon it altogether - still going to GAL, go on my trip, work on myself, etc. Just not going to go full-on and make it as uncomfortable as I could for the next week.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
I got another text last night asking why I'm being so curt and another asking why I'm so distant. So even in the small changes I've implemented, I can see the impact which encourages me to continue and do more.


IF you are DBing only to see the impact... ????


Then you are looking at this all wrong.....

And I think that you are trying to jump through too many of her hoops because you are trying to move forward whilst looking in the rearview mirror.

DBing is about making those changes for yourself, so that you can become you again....

And no matter how hard you try, you cannot lead from behind...

And, you are never gonna talk your way out of something that you acted your way into....



Why are you holding her accountable for your emotions ???

Why are you holding her responsible for your decisions ???

She wants out, and you are still treating this like a functioning marriage...

Why ???

Why are you looking to her, to find your path ??


What is it, that you want (for you, not the marriage) ?????
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog

You mean like the "I'm missing you" text I just got?



That's temp checking. This will continue to increase in as you get better at detachment.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You mean like the "I'm missing you" text I just got?
Yes.


Quote
You have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
These are wise words.

Do not chase women. Chase excellence and success. The women will pursue you.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
You mean like the "I'm missing you" text I just got?


LOL. Yep.

Either ignore or be really ballsy and say "oh yeah then why don't you come over and show me how much you miss me".
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 04:05 PM
SD, please read Mach's response and consider it carefully. Mach is very wise and helped me a lot in my sitch. He asked thought-provoking questions that aren't really for you to answer, but to consider.

Also, have you ever heard of Nice Guy Syndrome? Please research it and consider reading the book No More Mr. Nice Guy.

One more reminder: YOU CANNOT NICE HER BACK
Posted By: job Re: Another LBH (kinda) pt. 2 - 12/18/20 04:20 PM
New Thread:

Another LBH (kinda) pt. 3
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