Hi everyone, it's good to be here again but not good to be here again, lol. I had to take a mental break from it all for a little bit, but I am back.
Here is my original thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2894980&page=1But basically, four years ago my husband confessed (in true trickle truth fashion) that he had had an affair. Eventually it came out that it was a two year affair, and it was with a good friend of mine. We have been married for 24 years and have three kids. He is someone who has trouble dealing with emotions and puts up walls like crazy and is very avoidant.
A year ago, he told me he wanted a divorce and told me what he thought it would look like (not anywhere on planet reality). He told me he felt he had already tried to make things work, he didn't feel a connection with me and basically considered us roommates. I was devastated. He stopped all sexual antimacy and basically any physical affection. I tried to DB the best I could, but my emotions and hopes were tough to deal with.
I basically came to the point about three months ago that I'm pretty much done with him. I don't really care anymore if he wants me or wants to be with me or what he thinks about me. I came to the realization that I deserve better than this. But we do have a lot of time and a family invested in this, and I want to make sure I have done everything I can do before I D. I bought the LRT program on the website when it was on sale for Black Friday. Turns out it's way easier to LRT when you don't care.
So for the past three months I have kept my mouth shut. I haven't had any expectations, I've been working on myself and my happiness and keeping busy. I don't chase him, I haven't tried to talk to him about anything. After a few weeks, he will hold my hand occasionally or hug me. I was pretty shocked when it happened. Mind you, we haven't had sex in a year but we sleep in the same bed. Then usually a wall goes back up and he shuts me out for a few days. In my mind, I don't care and it's none of my business. He is an adult, and if I have upset him in some way, or he just wants to share something with me, that's up to him. Otherwise, I can't control it.
About a month ago, he said that he still felt like we were roommates but now didn't want to divorce because of the kids. His idea is to stay together until the youngest one is out of the house (about 7 years from now). I told him nope. If we are doing our best to go in the same direction with our marriage, that's one thing, but if he wants a loveless, sexless marriage for seven years that's a hard pass for me. I was proud of myself because I was totally calm in this conversation. I didn't cry and I didn't get upset. I told him that it wasn't a game or a threat for me, I was just letting him know what I can do and what I can't. I had a consultation with a lawyer to know my rights and what a divorce would look like for me in our state. I felt like I would file after the holidays. Meanwhile, he would throw me off a bit because he would still show some affection and then wall up. My approach remained the same.
Today we had therapy. We've been going about a year and I like our therapist. He's marriage friendly. Anyway, H brought up he is at a place when he accepts this is all our relationship is and he is fine with staying for a few years but he feels like he has tried everything and feels no connection with me. No mention of the past few weeks and small displays of affection.
I guess I'm just trying to figure out my plan for the holidays as far as being able to keep going and enjoy them no matter what. I'm tired and not sure if good things are happening or if it's not enough anyway. I've been doing this for four years - six if you count the affair - and it's lonely. When do you keep going because there's progress and when is enough enough? Is there really progress, or am I imagining it. It p*sses me off when he reaches over and holds my hand and then later says we have nothing in common and we are roommates. I don't want a divorce, but I don't want this either. I just am tired of this roller coaster. I feel like his uber driver (he travels for work) and the one who makes sure there is dinner every night and a clean house.
I could not live like that. I tried and it only lasted a few weeks.
You deserve better than the constant feeling of being used. Eventually most people will crack under that kind of stress, and that's not what you or your kids need in your lives.
You can't control him. You can't make him feel any different than he does. I think you know that.
Hi OG,
So good to hear from you. A few thoughts:
maybe the handholding stuff is progress, and maybe it's not. It's hard to know. If it is, though, you don't want to make a big deal about it-- remember the whole treating him like a feral cat thing. I'd be super sure not to act like it means anything (sounds like that is already what you're doing).
If you feel like an Uber driver... stop driving him to and from the airport. Let him get his own dang Uber. You have better things to do, even if the better thing is just not feeling resentful anymore about driving him around. It sounds like you're doing a great job at focusing on you and not letting what he is or isn't doing or feeling bother you-- that is huge, congrats on getting there!!-- but if there are still things you do for him because he's your H, unless those things give you pleasure or you'd do them anyway-- like it is more of a PITA to not set him a place at dinner than to just let him eat with the family-- I'd really think about stopping. Anything that you find brings out the resentment, maybe take a break from those things for now.
A number of people have told me that you'll know when you're done. you will know, in your heart, when you're ready to throw in the towel and move on. I've committed to keeping a close eye on how my children are faring and trying to take a really hard and honest look at how the family environment is, because if I feel that they'd do better with us apart than together, I'm out. We aren't there, but I know that resentment can really build and turn things toxic (one of the reasons I'm recommending being sure YOU are as happy and fulfilled as you possibly can be under the circumstances). In any case, maybe you can come up with what your reasons to walk might be, when your calculus of when the benefits of leaving outweigh the benefits of staying. But trust yourself to know when that time is right, and do whatever you need to do now to be sure you can pull that final trigger when you need to.
xx hang in there, OG. I'm so glad to hear from you. M
OG,
I’m sorry you are still struggling four years later.
The mind is very powerful thing and if he feels he will never have romantic feelings fo you then he won’t no matter what changes you make. He’s looking for the same feelings from you that he got from the affair and that’s just not possible.
I’m really wondering why your still in counseling because with his mindset your just wasting money? A two year affair with you one of your good friends is a pretty serious behavior that should have never been tolerated.
Time and space are the only thing that turn these situations around long term. For things to work it he needs to see you area a person of value, that life is better with you then it is alone or with anyone else and he is willing to work to have you.
I think you understand where you are what you need to do and getting there is the hard part.
Thanks for your replies, everyone. Reality is so hard sometimes. I think that's why I've been focusing so hard on empowering myself and seeing my value. He has some deep issues and I can't make him work on it. And I don't want to, anyway. We each have to do that on our own.
Joe2017 - I thought i could live like that. I really wanted to keep things stable for my kids as we make a good family. But after a few months I realized that I can't. I was dying inside.
May - Lots of good thoughts. i do need to step back and see what I need to stop doing. I did not pick him up at the airport last week as I had a lot on my plate to do and I wanted to honor that. Before I always wanted to please. The kids part is the worst. I hate hurting my kids. It's like so weird -- we make this really good family. We go on vacation together and have fun together and watch movies etc etc, no wonder he doesn't want to leave. BUT it's been awful for me. So lonely. I don't want a divorce, but I don't want to live like this either. I feel like my situation is "which bad choice would you like to make?" You know? It's like horrible choice one or two. Which one [censored] less? I hate it.
LH19 - we are still in counseling because our church offered to pay for it. So it's not coming out of our account. I do understand where I am, all you say resonates with me. I have been allowing myself to accept and grieve.
I have mentioned him moving out before but he gets really mad. And obviously I cant make him leave. I would him move out after the holidays. Not sure how to approach that.
What confuses me sometimes on how long to wait to leave is that in DB she has stories of people where the spouse acted like this for a very long time and then began to come back. But I don't want to waste more of my life. I just hate that affects not just me, but my kids.
What confuses me sometimes on how long to wait to leave is that in DB she has stories of people where the spouse acted like this for a very long time and then began to come back. But I don't want to waste more of my life. I just hate that affects not just me, but my kids.
It does happen. When I went to Retrouvaille there was a coaching couple there that had been married for 35 years I think. After they had been married around 20 years, the husband went full WAS. He started drinking heavily, partying, having affairs, treated his W like he hated her. Actually begged her to leave, but wouldn't do the work himself. She on the other hand remained faithful and loyal but also did not put up with his crap. She basically went about her life and let him go do his thing. But she refused to give up on the M, and she told him so whenever he said he wanted a D. If I remember right they kept living under the same roof, but he was gone so much that it didn't seem like it. She talked him into going to Retrouvaille and he by his own admission sat there with his arms crossed and a frown on his face the entire weekend. He refused to participate in any of the exercises.
Eventually he hit rock bottom and repented his ways and wanted to try Retrouvaille again. The 2nd time he was a changed person, fully embraced it. They later became volunteer coaches for Retrou and had been doing it for 15 years. He was so ashamed of his behavior he could not tell the story without crying about it even all those years later. He said he felt such shame telling it, but felt like that was the price he should pay for what he had done. He didn't know why he did what he did, he has been a loyal H before it happened and was again after it happened. He really gushed over how amazing his W had been, and how he didn't deserve her.
People change, but they do sometimes change back too. My XW has slowly become more like her old self, it's happened very slowly over years. Others snap back practically overnight. Others never go back at all. You've just got to decide what is best for you and your kids because there are no guarantees he'll never be "normal" again.
What confuses me sometimes on how long to wait to leave is that in DB she has stories of people where the spouse acted like this for a very long time and then began to come back. But I don't want to waste more of my life. I just hate that affects not just me, but my kids.
It does happen. When I went to Retrouvaille there was a coaching couple there that had been married for 35 years I think. After they had been married around 20 years, the husband went full WAS. He started drinking heavily, partying, having affairs, treated his W like he hated her. Actually begged her to leave, but wouldn't do the work himself. She on the other hand remained faithful and loyal but also did not put up with his crap. She basically went about her life and let him go do his thing. But she refused to give up on the M, and she told him so whenever he said he wanted a D. If I remember right they kept living under the same roof, but he was gone so much that it didn't seem like it. She talked him into going to Retrouvaille and he by his own admission sat there with his arms crossed and a frown on his face the entire weekend. He refused to participate in any of the exercises.
Eventually he hit rock bottom and repented his ways and wanted to try Retrouvaille again. The 2nd time he was a changed person, fully embraced it. They later became volunteer coaches for Retrou and had been doing it for 15 years. He was so ashamed of his behavior he could not tell the story without crying about it even all those years later. He said he felt such shame telling it, but felt like that was the price he should pay for what he had done. He didn't know why he did what he did, he has been a loyal H before it happened and was again after it happened. He really gushed over how amazing his W had been, and how he didn't deserve her.
People change, but they do sometimes change back too. My XW has slowly become more like her old self, it's happened very slowly over years. Others snap back practically overnight. Others never go back at all. You've just got to decide what is best for you and your kids because there are no guarantees he'll never be "normal" again.
WOW this is great. And so true. I can echo a lot of this in my own sitch.
My W did not snap back overnight. Though to many here it looked like it. While it still took her weeks, due to the length of most people's sitches and limbo, it seem very fast. But she went into turning back to the marriage very reluctantly. She was sure that if she ever came back to the MR she'd be miserable for the rest of her life. I was a lot like the women in the story AS shared in that she continued to say she wanted a D. I continued to let her have time and space to figure things out. She could have gone and filed for D anytime she wanted.
Limbo was brutal. I tell the story occasionally about the night she went into the guest bathroom. For 1 1/2 hours. I knew she was in there texting OM, probably sharing explicit photos. I even had the urge at one point to sneak to the door and peak under it. I am so glad I did not because I know for a fact that I would hate myself to this day for stooping to such a low level. The shame would be unbearable. Weeks later it was revealed that my suspicions that night were dead on. Yet I stayed the course. We were IHS. I was working on me. Becoming the man only a fool would leave. I let her have her time and space. I stopped obsessing over what she was doing every minute of every day. It is funny how WASs can feel that pressure even when you aren't pressuring them directly!
It wasn't until I have completely let go, let her move on to decide what she wanted, and started to embrace the future no matter what it held that she started to turn back. I am on record here that given enough time the WAS almost always will want to come back. Sometimes it is weeks. Sometimes months. Sometimes years. Sometimes even decades! A lot of times by time that happens the LBS has moved on themselves and is no longer interested. The real question OG is how long can you wait?
When LBSs ask "how long should I wait" I typically will tell them that you give the WAS enough time that you can look back without regrets and say "I gave them every opportunity to come back" without question or guilt. When you get to that point you will know it. It sounds like you are too that point. No one, not even your H, could blame you. You gave it everything, and he still has nearly 1 month to come around and decide to work on the marriage. You have an end goal now OG, I am sure that is very freeing to you. I know when I set my drop-dead in my sitch, I felt so good knowing where I was heading.
Keep posting and let us know how things go the next few weeks. Oh, and welcome back!
Wow AS, what a story!! And what a woman. That is clearly one of the best case scenarios, but like you and Steve said, how long can you wait?
Sometimes I think I can. Sometimes I feel like a doormat.
Steve I am inspired by your journey also. Did you have any time frame in your mind?
I go back and forth. I am in my mid-forties, and I don’t want to waste time on someone who resents me. I feel like he has shame and issues, and his pattern is that it is my fault. If I were different, or didn’t ever trigger him everything would be fine. But he has to learn how to handle his own feelings. I have come SO FAR in four years. Before I was more emotional and would fly off the handle. I am pretty calm now and try to handle my own feelings as well. I also don’t want a loveless, sexless marriage.
My biggest goal to figure out right now is how do I honor myself and set boundaries while also staying w him. For example, we sleep in the same bed, but sleeping is all the action going on there. Should I ask him to go to a different bedroom? He asks me to take him to the airport and pick him up. Should I keep doing that? These are the boundaries I am trying to figure out. I don’t want to be taken for granted, but I do want to be my best self.
I am pretty sure he is not involved w anyone else. But it doesn’t seem normal for him to refuse sex for a year. I don’t know what to think about that.
Our therapist has an assignment for us to write three things we need from the other for the holiday season, and three things we can give to them. I am totally empty on this. I don’t know what I need from him. I’ve worked hard to need nothing. Expect nothing. My H mumbled it doesn’t have anything to do with our relationship. I said I think it just depends on what you need. I am so determined to enjoy Christmas with my kids.
My 25th anniversary is in May. We never talk about it or plan for it, of course. So sad.
Thanks for your advice here. I feel like these boards are one of the only places where someone really gets what you’re doing through.
OG, yes I had a timeline. I set one year past BD. In my case BD was 12/23, so I set the Monday after New Years to file for D. I was giving her one year to recommit to the marriage. This was not a timeline I shared with her, it was for me. I was not filing to wake her up, I was going to file to get a D. Just like you I had spoken to a lawyer, got a free consult, and I was ready to move forward. (By the way, to any LBS that might be reading this, talking to the lawyer was one of the best things I ever did! It really alleviated a lot of anxiety I had about the D.)
As far as the bed, as long as he is NOT actively involved in a PA, there is no reason to kick him out of the bed. Once you file if you want you can ask him to sleep elsewhere. I would stop driving him to the airport. That is what a W does for a H and he has fired you as his W. I put that in the "cake-eating" category.
Our therapist has an assignment for us to write three things we need from the other for the holiday season, and three things we can give to them. I am totally empty on this. I don’t know what I need from him. I’ve worked hard to need nothing. Expect nothing. My H mumbled it doesn’t have anything to do with our relationship. I said I think it just depends on what you need. I am so determined to enjoy Christmas with my kids.
Yeah this is tough. The problem with most MCs is they do not know how to handle couples where one or both has checked out of the MR. So the homework assignments and exercises are about reconnecting. The last thing a checked out spouse wants. Our MC was really good at detecting that my W was checked out and tailoring her approach to that. It turned into IC for me (the checked in spouse) with my WAW present. Until she was ready to engage and then it transitioned into more of traditional MC. That sounds like what is going on with your MC, he isn't getting that you aren't at a place where reconnection can work.
I just want to say how much I empathize. I have loosely followed along. The double betrayal of WH having an A with a good friend is an indescribable type of pain. I questioned everything I thought I knew about my life, my relationships around me and who I am as a person. I am around the same age as you and now several years has passed since my sitch started. So much will change. Sometimes the best we can do is be open to that. But always be true to yourself and your gut feelings. There are no perfect answers in this mess. I feel you, I do.
Blu
I just want to say how much I empathize. I have loosely followed along. The double betrayal of WH having an A with a good friend is an indescribable type of pain. I questioned everything I thought I knew about my life, my relationships around me and who I am as a person. I am around the same age as you and now several years has passed since my sitch started. So much will change. Sometimes the best we can do is be open to that. But always be true to yourself and your gut feelings. There are no perfect answers in this mess. I feel you, I do.
Blu
The only thing I would remove is the word "good" in front of the word "friend". No such thing in this circumstance.
You are correct, Steve, she wasn’t a “friend” at all. I do think that the double betrayal is sooooo deeply painful for anyone tho. For years, I saw her (or spoke with her, texted her, etc) several times a week. We had dinner with our families every Friday night and took family vacations. We cared for one another’s children and they trusted us like aunts/ uncles. Our “friendship” was a very big part of my day to day life. I shared things with this woman about my own marriage ....
So to find out my H was having an A with her was beyond hurtful, it was also confusing and humiliating! It was my own history being rewritten before my eyes. I Also lost an additional person I thought was a friend and we need those people for support when our M falls apart. It was so raw and complicated and I started to question everything I thought I knew about myself and my relationships with people around me. My Hs A wasn’t an invisible person I could choose to ignore.
I’m not sure if Oceangrl had a similar experience but I do imagine it was hard and confusing.
Blu
You are correct, Steve, she wasn’t a “friend” at all. I do think that the double betrayal is sooooo deeply painful for anyone tho. For years, I saw her (or spoke with her, texted her, etc) several times a week. We had dinner with our families every Friday night and took family vacations. We cared for one another’s children and they trusted us like aunts/ uncles. Our “friendship” was a very big part of my day to day life. I shared things with this woman about my own marriage ....
So to find out my H was having an A with her was beyond hurtful, it was also confusing and humiliating! It was my own history being rewritten before my eyes. I Also lost an additional person I thought was a friend and we need those people for support when our M falls apart. It was so raw and complicated and I started to question everything I thought I knew about myself and my relationships with people around me. My Hs A wasn’t an invisible person I could choose to ignore.
I’m not sure if Oceangrl had a similar experience but I do imagine it was hard and confusing.
Blu
Oh Blu. I feel this so much. There is this certain crazy-making pain involved with this. One day, you *think* you're life is pretty normal. And then you find you are on Planet Crazy, where nothing is certain and you can't count on anyone or anything. I have felt like I cannot figure out what is real and what is true. It took me a couple years to decide that I would be friends with women again. That I couldn't let her ruin that for me. It traumatized me so much. We too went on girls trips together and I told her things about my life and marriage while they were in a relationship. Confusing and humiliating is such a good description. I felt so stupid. Our kids had relationships together, we did holidays together. It is sick sick sick. To have my husband tell me right after that she was his best friend and so much more. Ugh. Puke.
The only positive about it I would say, and that's reaching, is that because I knew her I couldn't romanticize her. Like a made-up person who has everything I didn't. In his twisted eyes, she did have wonderful things. But I knew the truth that she was just a regular person with pros and cons. I was actually younger and more attractive. But she has a really strong personality she likes (ironically, he criticizes my strong personality, but since when did affairs make any sense?).
My heart goes out to you, and you truly know what it is like. Thank you for sharing with me.
He is out of town until Friday night. It makes it easier because I feel like I can take a break to think and and sort my feelings out. I feel like a yoyo in my thoughts and feelings.
I haven't had my own life in a long time. And then I was chasing him for awhile after the sky fell. So as far as GALing goes, lately I've learned how to make bread. I know that sounds a little lame, but it is so satisfying and soothing to knead bread and make something from scratch. I feel like it helps me connect with myself. I am also trying to establish a good morning routine before my kids are up. They are distance learning so our schedule has been off. I want to look into a gym so I can value and take care of myself, and connect with that side of me.
For a long time I felt shame over the way I handled his affair. I was needy and chasing and desperate to fix it all. Now I give myself a break. I was in absolute trauma and everything I *knew* to be true was blown up. It's given me an opportunity to learn how to value myself and connect with myself.
I don’t want to hijack your thread, but thank you for posting about this. You really have me thinking — it’s quite different to know the OW personally. While the double betrayal felt twice as painful, I also never imagined her to be something better than she was. I knew her and she was a fuching mess of a person. I am not only saying that as a scorned woman, but this lady was the one we all knew and joked about as being the most messed up, crazy and all over the map “friend” in our circle. I made a lot of excuses for her bad behaviors for years! Because hey, that’s just how she is. She was the crazy one that did shocking things, she was the flirt and hypersexual and she was soooo damaged (her words) that she couldn’t share her feelings.
Yes, that certainly is how she is. Damaged. Now, I just trust if someone seems like a messy person, I accept what they show me and I just stay away. Now, because of this understanding, I have been able to create some beautiful friendships with some amazing women. But the trauma is real. I hope you can heal from that and find your people — they are out there :-)
Blu
Folks, if it looks like chit and smells like chit, don’t taste it, it’s chit!
For a long time I felt shame over the way I handled his affair. I was needy and chasing and desperate to fix it all. Now I give myself a break. I was in absolute trauma and everything I *knew* to be true was blown up. It's given me an opportunity to learn how to value myself and connect with myself.
100% on all points. I wish we could sit down one day and talk about this! I’m 6-7 years down the road. Things will continue to change, evolve and eventually make more sense. I dont have regrets anymore. And I was a disaster — I think people here would be shocked to know what I did when I learned about the A and then after he left me for her. I did the unthinkable! It’s almost funny, but its not.
Today, I don’t have the same mindset because I have healed. That is who I was and that is what I did. By bringing forward my most ugly self, I have also been given the gift of insight and understanding. I have had to look into that darkness and really dig deep. I have healed myself from passed wounds that otherwise were so easy to hide. I’m a much stronger and happier person now. So are my relationships. So I cannot pick and choose what part of my history to keep or erase, it’s all still there, but I can certainly change my perspective on how I view it.
Blu
For a long time I felt shame over the way I handled his affair. I was needy and chasing and desperate to fix it all. Now I give myself a break. I was in absolute trauma and everything I *knew* to be true was blown up. It's given me an opportunity to learn how to value myself and connect with myself.
100% on all points. I wish we could sit down one day and talk about this! I’m 6-7 years down the road. Things will continue to change, evolve and eventually make more sense. I dont have regrets anymore. And I was a disaster — I think people here would be shocked to know what I did when I learned about the A and then after he left me for her. I did the unthinkable! It’s almost funny, but its not.
Today, I don’t have the same mindset because I have healed. That is who I was and that is what I did. By bringing forward my most ugly self, I have also been given the gift of insight and understanding. I have had to look into that darkness and really dig deep. I have healed myself from passed wounds that otherwise were so easy to hide. I’m a much stronger and happier person now. So are my relationships. So I cannot pick and choose what part of my history to keep or erase, it’s all still there, but I can certainly change my perspective on how I view it.
Blu
Completely and totally! I am such a different person now. Thankfully . And to your above post, the OW in my case is very attractive on the outside...seems to be a power woman and is very flirtatious with men. She makes them feel very good which in turn gives her attention and makes her fee good. What I have watched is that women and men think she's great for about a year and then the cracks start showing. The reality. The manipulation, the fakeness, the controlling behaviors and power plays. I have watched that process. Except for my H of course, who decided to just have an A. Eyeroll. It was hard for both of them because they are both very much into image. Looking like the ultimate "good person," family person, religious person, etc. They did a lot to cover it up so that no one would find out.
I also wish we could get together outside of this forum. Even a reunion or something! I would love the support and value so many supportive friendships on here.
Does anyone else have a night where they are just mad?? I mean so mad?
I think it's a good thing he is out of town this week. It gives me more space and less pressure. I can take the opportunity to just feel it and hopefully work through it.
Our MC gave us an assignment I didn't want to do. To write 3 things we can do for the other, and 3 things we need from them. Well, I've worked really hard to not need anything from him or expect it. But I did the dumb assignment (I sound like I'm 3, lol). I decided to go for it and I put that I needed to have hard conversations daily. I asked for support with the kids regarding chores, etc, and also to connect with me 15 mins a day. I KNOW he won't do it. But I did it anyway. The things I offered were to listen to him calmly and respectfully when he tells me how he feels, to respect his opinions, and to do the best to have a peaceful Christmas.
His list: He offered to 1. cook breakfasts for me 2. spend time with me or as a family taking walks drives or other active activities and 3. while on vacation after Christmas to make sure we were able to do the Christmas events I want to do also. He will help plan and make sure they happen (this is because last year we only did what he wanted).
What he needs from me: 1. be friendly, in good spirits and supportive while staying with his family 2. be consistent with him and the kids 3. enjoy the time we have with the families, enjoy the activities where we are all together.
His list super pissed me off because first, I have never wanted him to make breakfast for me. I like to cook and its not something I need or appreciate. I mean of course I DO appreciate it, but it's not a big thing for me. When he asked a couple of years ago I made a list of things that I do appreciate and want. That's not on it. And what he wants from me -- I don't even know what 'be consistent' is about, but I do know he wants me to be happy and bubbly all the time. He doesn't want me to ever cry or have a hard time. I don't know if I've written about it here, but I did all the healing after his 2 year A on my own. He didn't want anything to do with it and felt like if I cried it was because I wanted to make him feel bad or I was being manipulative. And the OW in his eyes was happy all the time. Listen, I think if I were having an A and never had to worry about kids, bills, laundry, life, etc, with someone I would be dang happy all the time, too. Even with all that has happened, I think I've done an amazing job and am usually pretty happy most of the time -- for me, not to be something for him. And I am always friendly to his family, I play games and hang out with them, so I'm not sure what that is about. I am sure that there is defensiveness surfacing here on my part, but I am so sensitive to criticism since I felt criticized for so long.
I'm embarrassed for doing the assignment as I knew it was a no-win in the first place.
So I'm mad tonight because of it, and I'm mad because this could very well be our last Christmas as a together-family-unit and that's heavy to carry. I'm mad because I want to ask him to move out next month. I'm mad because I might be divorced and I don't want to lose my house. Not for materialistic reasons, but because we bought this house on a short sale and I've worked so hard to fix it up. I love it, and I love my great oak trees in the backyard that have brought me so much happiness.
I'm mad because I believe she will always be amazing in his eyes, I'm mad that he loved her, I'm mad that there is a comparison, and I'm mad I'm in a bad situation and it's going to be brutal to get out of it all.
I just don't know how to respond to anything and I'm so tired. I have to apologize because I'm not sure this post made any sense at all.
It seems like, for whatever reason, counseling is not working. There are disconnects. Are you telling your counselor and H that what he wants to do for you isn't what you want or need? If you are, he's not listening.
In my sitch, I could never get over the fact that I had been cheated on. It takes a while to heal from that... and TBH, I am 99% over it now, and I don't think I could ever fully trust my ex again. I think can be friends, but she'd never have my heart or trust again.
And this won't be your last Christmas as a family if you split. You still have your family, no matter what. It's just going to be different. Nothing ever stays the same. Things will change, and you will adapt.
It's hard to think there will be good to come from all of this, but there will be eventually.
My WW left me on Thanksgiving and forced me out of the MH right after Christmas. I never thought I'd recover, but I did. It was hard, but I enjoy my life more now. It takes a while and a lot of counseling, because it's hard. But you'll make it.
Joe2017 -
1. I will definitely tell the counselor on Saturday.
2. Yes, it is so so so hard. I would say I am doing better for longer periods of time, and building up my self. Then some odd thing will happen and take my breath away. I still sometime can't wrap my head around the fact that it really happened and he could be capable of such a nuclear version of dishonor and infidelity.
Thank you for your words of hope. I can't imagine what you wen through over that holiday season. How terrible! I am glad that you are enjoying your life. I have been with this man since I was 19, and I am in my 40s now, so often I have trouble even picturing a life without him in it as my companion.
Update:
Today I had an IC session. It was hard but good. Hard in that there are no easy or happy answers right now regarding my MR. It's just something to work through. I let myself cry and feel. My IC has worked a lot with my H, so he is familiar with how he operates, thinks, handles everything. He leveled with me that my H checked out of the R a long time ago. He has declared we are roommates and he has no feelings for me, no common interests...you know, the standard party line. And he is fine to keep going as roommates until the last kid is out of the nest (about 7 years). My therapist stated that my H won't file because he has this thing about not being the bad guy and can't deal with shame. So if I file he can throw his hands in the air and say...well I was willing to keep going. which of course is bull s$it; but that's the game I find myself in. My therapist basically said that until he is willing to do the work he won't change. He will be unhappy and you will get the blame.
Every day I deal with the fact he has emotionally and mentally checked out. His body is here but he's just gone. He does not allow any connection to happen. There is a wall around him that is high and thick. Sometimes I think I could see it physically if I focused my eyes enough. Two weeks ago we took a small family weekend trip and he was more open to me. He was talking to me and a teeny bit affectionate. Then he shut it all down. It used to really hurt me, now it's just another Tuesday if you know what I mean.
So here I am at Christmas. And I am determined to enjoy it the best I can. I still see so many good things in my life, I have my kids, and good people and family members who love me and see me for who I am. Christmas is not about your life being perfect. It is about having hope and seeing the blessings and good and choosing to see them. In the past few years, each Christmas I was so distracted about what was going in with him or the state of my M, he was my foNo cus and how he felt about me (gag but it's the truth) was how I measured my happiness and well-being. I realize now I don't know how many Christmases I will get, or my children or family or friends. So I am working hard everyday to be present. To see my kids and what's real. My mom has cancer (again), and I want to enjoy this season with her. And that's all I or anyone has. There are no guarantees. If i don't stay present and see the good amazing things in my life, then I will jump back to the reality that this is most likely my last Christmas as an intact family unit. I have to acknowledge that sadness, but I can't stay there. I can't let next Christmas hijack this one.
Like my therapist said, if you met my H you would think he was a really nice guy, charismatic, friendly. But he doesn't have the ability to go deeper right now because he can't let himself. He deals with things just like this father did. His father ran away (by going to work all the time) and his mother was basically catatonic. If we don't break the cycle by working on ourself, we repeat it. I always read about these kind of things, but to experience it....is hard. And sad.
As May said in her thread, it's his work, and I can't do it for him. And so far he's choosing not to. And I can't wait around another five years being emotionally neglected in the minute hope that somehow he will. He has even said crazy stuff to me like "maybe in a few years down the road we will be together again." I was speechless. Cause it's nuts. And I am not here to sit around until you decide I'm worth it and you grace me with your presence.
Although that does show how far I've come because four years ago I would have thought OKAY! Yikes.
Anyway, after the session I let myself have a good cry, get it all out, and then go on with my day. That's all any of us can do right now.
Hey grl,
It's really hard. Being in a relationship for so long conditions you to be codependent. It's very hard habit to break free from. You want things to go back to when they were good. I'm sorry friend, but I don't think they ever will. It's not your fault, nor is it about blame at this point.
From everything you have posted it really seems like you will have to file for D if you want to change your sitch. I know you don't want to hear that. Part of you probably thinks you can hang on until the kids are all grown and flown, but will that be good for you? Can you put up with 8-10 more years of this? I know you said 7 years but kids these days don't move out like we did at their age.
You are the only one who knows the answer, and you're the only one who has the ability to change your reality.
Hey grl,
It's really hard. Being in a relationship for so long conditions you to be codependent. It's very hard habit to break free from. You want things to go back to when they were good. I'm sorry friend, but I don't think they ever will. It's not your fault, nor is it about blame at this point.
From everything you have posted it really seems like you will have to file for D if you want to change your sitch. I know you don't want to hear that. Part of you probably thinks you can hang on until the kids are all grown and flown, but will that be good for you? Can you put up with 8-10 more years of this? I know you said 7 years but kids these days don't move out like we did at their age.
You are the only one who knows the answer, and you're the only one who has the ability to change your reality.
thanks for your thoughts. I think you're right, its just a matter of processing for me and accepting. A year ago I thought i could hang on, now I do not believe I can. Nor do I want to. But I hate losing my intact family. We are a great family. I hate not having my kids everyday. Those are the things I hate.
I'm so sorry that you're dealing with these feelings, especially this time of year OG. Hugs to you, I can feel the hurt in your words.
I just came here thinking that it's New Year's Eve, and many of us might be feeling discouraged. I try to remember I'm not alone and we are all here in it together! Good luck in the new year!
I just came here thinking that it's New Year's Eve, and many of us might be feeling discouraged. I try to remember I'm not alone and we are all here in it together! Good luck in the new year!
Happy New Year, OG!
Happy New Year OG. I’ve been where you are. I remember a time i wished my WAW would just get it over with, because I was never going to leave. I’m not sure what the answer is, time will tell. She left 32 days ago and not having the kids every day is a really hard for me. My wife and I were still friendly son it was nice having a companion for me, even if there was no intimacy. I’m sorry you’re going through this. I wish there was an answer or a way to change it.
Updating my situation:
Four years after I found out about his long-term emotional and physical affair (w a good family friend), he has filed for D. He basically gave me a choice; he would stay with me as a roommate until the kids were out of the house, and if something magically happened between us in that time, great. And amazing choice B was divorce. Of course, in his version we are best friends and can "take care of each other better as friends then M partners" was his vision.
I told him that I did not want to live the next eight years as roommates with my husband in a sexless (by his choice) marriage. He has this need to look like a good guy to people, and so I think cutting off sex and being a roommate was his way of pushing me to file so he could say it was what I wanted. In the end, I told him I would not be his roommate. I would either work with him to make the marriage we both wanted, or he would need to file. I said while I don't agree it is the right choice, I am not going to play games or force anyone to be with me who doesn't want to be. He finally filed at the beginning of February.
I am sad of course, but also seeing more and more of who he is. And I don't want to be treated like that anymore. I am also feeling the weight of telling our kids. I really dread it, and it is emotionally draining for me. I feel like I am in survival mode. I think I'm doing a great job of survival mode, I am civil, and doing my best to plan and see a happy future for me. I want to go through the grief process but not get stuck in it. I am in the acceptance part with a heaping dose of anger. I mainly handle that anger by journaling, talking to a couple close friends, and my IC. I haven't had any conversations other than the basics with him before today and when he filed.
Here's what I am grappling with. While he has moved to another bedroom, we are still living together. He travels for work and is usually gone a week at a time. When he is gone, I do so much better. I am basically NC with him unless it is a matter with children. I go through the normal grieving process. We were last apart for about 20 days, and I was doing well. Now he is back. And it is so hard on me. While I don't do this, I want to first take my anger out at him in one moment, and in another ask him if there is any chance we could try again. OMG I am so embarrassed even typing that. I don't want him back, so why does that pop in my head? I often retreat to my bedroom alone so I can cry for a minute and then get back to life. I have told him I want him to move out asap, that this is hard on me. That I am going through a grief process and I experience anger and sadness and it's harder when he is around. He wants to be friends and is hooked on the word "amicable." I said I don't want to be his friend right now, and I don't have any friends who treat me the way he does. I said maybe one day it will be like that, I don't know, but it's not now. I said I can be civil and professional, and I have no desire to punish. I want this process over with as quickly as possible. But I don't want to be friends. His concern is we don't know what the finances will be, and he doesn't want to move out until he knows what he can afford and what the parenting plan will look like. He also doesn't want to tell the kids until he can say exactly what will happen.
While I care very much about my kids and their mental and emotional health, mine is important also. I feel like we could tell them we are divorcing and that there will be two households. And let them know more when we know more. He doesn't agree. The separation is also hard on me, and I'm trying to figure out how to get through the time he is here in a better way.
We are going through a collaborative divorce, which means that we both have an L to guide us, but we work as a team with a neutral financial facilitator and a second neutral facilitator for other matters like parenting, etc. It's also a quicker and less expensive process. Having said that, he wants us to decide things ahead of time. I don't, because I know he will try to get me to go without things, and I want the guidance of the L before I make any decisions. He said, okay fine, if you want this to be more expensive than we can do it that way. It's not what I think we should do, but if that's what YOU want. This is something he does often to get me to do something by making me feel bad. I called him out on that and said that's exactly why I want an L there. I said I have shown you so far my intentions, that I don't want this dragged out and I don't want to play games. But I also want to make sure I am doing this in the wisest way possible. You have to remember, this is someone who hid a bank account and a car from me when he was having his A. So while I don't think he's like that anymore, I won't be taking chances now that I know it's possible.
Whew, okay that's the written info dump from me. Thanks for staying with me. I value all your input and experience and I'm so glad to have this place. Especially during this time. After telling him how hard it was to be around him, and how I didn't want to do the fake happy family thing, he just asked if we all want to go to the gym together as a family tonight. Good grief. Sounds so painful to me right now. So do I go, or have everyone else go, and I stay home alone? I hate when there are no good choices.
Hi Ocean. I could feel the emotion pouring out of you as I read this. I am so sorry you are going through this, but I like the perspective you have on a lot of it! Shows that even through the emotions, you are clear thinking. Very important in situations like these.
As far as being embarrassed about vacillating between wanting to be angry at him and asking him for one more try, Don't be embarrassed, that is very normal. The thing is that when your brain is telling you that what you are going through is not okay, then you lean towards wanting to be angry. But then when your brain starts thinking that things could be better if he'd just recommit to the marriage, the lure of asking for one more try rises up. But the good thing is, that unlike so many LBSs, you do not act on those thoughts! Having them we all did, thinking that is not worthy of 2x4s. But if you were alternatively yelling and exploding at him, and then the next day going and asking for another chance at saving the marriage, that is when you would get feedback here to control your actions. You are already doing that! So rather than being embarrassed you should be congratulating yourself for a job well done.
I also get the whole, better when he is gone, not so good when he is there thing. When he is gone, you can settle down your emotions and move forward with your day. When he is there it is a struggle because the R between the two of you is not what you want to be, and that fact is front and center when he is around. So while I know you are scared about him moving out and all of the things that causes you to face (telling the kids, etc), I think when he does you will be better off for it. This man has made it clear that this is the best he can give, and as you have rightfully ascertained you deserve so much more than he is giving! Friendship. You can get that from anywhere. So I applaud you for not "settling" for his friendship in the hope it would turn into more later. Another indication that you are thinking more clearly than a lot of LBSs.
I also love you standing your ground on the L. Very important that this man doesn't gaslight you and manipulate you, and that is not going to happen with your L present! And yes, he is gaslighting you with the " fine, if you want this to be more expensive than we can do it that way. It's not what I think we should do, but if that's what YOU want." This is emotional abuse in my opinion. And it sounds like he has a long history of doing that kind of thing. So kudos for standing up for yourself and holding your ground on the L.
As far as the gym thing, Ocean I think you can trust your instincts on that one. This man sounds wayward. Wanting his cake (moving forward with D) and eat it too ("Hey, lets go to the gym as one big happy family!"). So do what YOU want. If you want to go to the gym as a family, with zero expectations involved, then do it. If you aren't feeling it, then don't. To me this looks like another manipulation by him. "Hey, I know you don't want to be friends, but if I can show you what a fun, upbeat friend I can be, maybe you will change your mind!"
Anyway, now is the time to double down on your GAL. Are you in IC? If not I highly suggest it. And just keep emotionally detaching from him. His gaslighting and manipulation will lessen as he sees that he cannot get you to emotionally react to what he says and does.
Keep moving forward!
Hi OG,
(HUGS) I have thought of you quite a lot through all of this and am glad you're back here. I remember so vividly you saying don't hold your breath when my H broke it off with his AP last February, and thinking, well... this is actually like the seventh time so maybe... but then you were TOTALLY RIGHT. God. These little f$ckers.
I have to say that you are handling this so, so well. I really am impressed and proud of you. You are standing for yourself. You know what you deserve and it isn't this half-@ssed excuse for a partner.
I told him that I did not want to live the next eight years as roommates with my husband in a sexless (by his choice) marriage. He has this need to look like a good guy to people, and so I think cutting off sex and being a roommate was his way of pushing me to file so he could say it was what I wanted.
FWIW... this is so ridiculous. He can say it is what you wanted... AFTER HE CHEATED ON YOU WITH YOUR FRIEND. Girlfriend, no-one in the world is going to say that this is what you "wanted." You wanted what you signed up for when you got married-- an honest, loyal partner for life. You got the shaft. Svcks. But not your fault... HIS. He is responsible for his own choices, not you. And when he shows himself to be a $hitty H, cheater and liar, and unable to do the work to restore the marriage... you're simply doing what any sane person would do. Cut your losses. He is not the good guy in this story. Sorry. (I keep telling my H-- this is probably not a positive thing from the whole piecing standpoint-- that I didn't "win". I f-ing lost. No matter what happens, I lost this game because I have a truly $hitty H. Maybe won't be that way forever. But he'll always have done this, no matter what happens to us in the future. And he is GD lucky that I'm still here and willing to consider M2.0 with his dumb @ss. I am feeling a little more feisty than usual, I guess!!)
I also agree with Steve-- don't beat yourself up for your feelings. You deserve to feel angry, and sad, and all the rest. I got a punching bag and it really helped with the anger.
On the gym-- also with Steve. If you wanna go, go. Who cares what he thinks, whether it feeds his fantasy of post-D BFFs or not? You do you, OG. The second it stops serving you to do things as a family, stop. Maybe it is okay one day and not another. I think you shouldn't worry about whether that is confusing to him or not... just focus on yourself and the kids and what is best for the three (four?) of you. Don't waste any energy on him.
xoxo M
Steve and May -- thanks for your support. That makes sense.
Steve, I am doing so much better than I was a year ago. Oh boy. I am much more clear-headed. I do get angry and I do get depressed, but I can also feel that this is within the "normal" grief zone and I just have to go through the process. I am determined not to be bitter let anyone but me have control over my future. But I'm still mad. And sad. And scared sometimes. I am pushing to tell the kids sooner rather than later. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's something I dread, but it's hanging over me and the weight of it is so heavy. I know his pattern. He wants to wait until he can tell them and then leave. That's how he told me about the A. He can't handle emotions. I mean clearly, if he could, he would still be in this marriage.
May - I like you're feistiness! I have been in those moods. I've told him straight a few times lately. It took me a long time to figure out I deserved better, but now that I finally have, I see everything differently. I think you are totally right above. I've got to cut my losses.
Honestly, the hard times for me (obviously) are when we are together as a family. It's the worst. But other than that, I'm just not wanting to be with someone who would treat me the way he does. He really does live in a fantasy world, where we "struggled and tried and decided we aren't right for each other". Puke. He whistles and all but skips around the house. I think in those moments that I must be on Planet Crazy. There is no other explanation. You would think he would at least PRETEND to be sad. He keeps helping my daughter with college plans which gives me pain as I don't want to lead her on that we can afford it now. He seems to think there will be no problem. ???
I am in IC and it does help tremendously. Also to have a few close people who can helpme see things normally again.
I do think when OW finds out (remember they still work together) that we are divorcing she will s*%t bricks. I think she will realize that she can't manipulate me through him and that her secret is going to get out.
While I shouldn't say I'm glad you guys are here, I'm glad there is a place where there are people who get it.