Reading through the threads and articles here has been extremely helpful and enlightening. I know at the core of it, my situation isn’t different from anyone else’s. I’m a LBH trying to piece his life back together. But I do think there are some nuances that I haven’t come across reading through some of the other threads so I thought I’d share my story to see if I can get any feedback or ideas.
Background - married 13 years and been together for 15 and we have 3 kids (7, 10, 13). The marriage wasn’t all rainbows and unicorns, but we were a helluva team. We operated on another level together and really were best friends. About 3 years ago she started having health issues - lethargy, weight gain, racing heart, etc. After about 6 months of ongoing tests she was diagnosed with hypothyroidism, but in an atypical way that didn’t respond to regular treatments. It also caused her to almost completely lose her libido. Being on meds didn’t help with many symptoms and to this day she is still battling to get answers. During this time, especially the beginning, I took on most of the parenting duties. I already cooked all the meals, but now I was tasked with taking kids to soccer practices, events, doctor’s appointments, trips, etc. because she wasn’t able to do it. My love language being acts of service, I felt like I was 100% showing her how much I loved her because I did everything. It was around this time I started getting depressed, but I never told her because I didn’t feel like it would be right to add that to her plate of things to deal with. I figured I’d be able to gut it out.
As the years went on, she started getting her meds dialed in and was able to “rejoin” the family on a regular basis. I started taking antidepressants which helped numb the lows, but also numbed the highs. I still felt like I was showing how much I loved her because of all my acts of service. Looking back, it didn’t matter how many acts I performed because she needed the emotional attachment, the words of affirmation and quality time. I had too much resentment built up to provide that. I was also so depressed that even if I wasn’t resentful I don’t know that I would’ve been able to provide her what she needed.
Fast forward to August and I find out she’s having an EA with a friend from when she was in high school. He’s married and has kids too. She says it isn’t about wanting to be with him or anything like that, just that I wasn’t there for her and he was and since he was around back when she was going through some hard times, he could relate. We move on from there and agree to marriage counseling (her idea).
We go a month and realize things still aren’t working. She suggests and I agree to a trial separation, but not a “traditional” one. We get a studio in town that we share. One person has the kids, the other has the studio. The idea is to work on ourselves and see if we can figure things out. In talking with our counselor I get the ILYBNILWY bomb. However, at this point I’ve started seeing my own therapist and am on different meds and am showing signs of “coming back to life” and she says that while she was almost completely out the door, seeing me come back has her thinking otherwise and that there might be some hope.
We start the separation and it really didn’t seem that bad to begin with. We still have Sunday dinners with the family, we still sleep in the same bed when we’re both at the house, we still have sex (her libido is now back, of course) and things seem good all things considered. When I am at the studio I meditate, work out, read books, and try to do as much as I can to improve myself and she sees the changes and comments on how good I’m looking. She also comments on how she can see how I am being more open and vulnerable with her and how she appreciates it. So I’ve got my rose colored glasses on and let my guard down. Last Tuesday we’re talking and she casually tells me she’s signed up for dating sites and asks if I would want to know if she went on a date with someone. That she doesn’t want to know if I go on a date unless she asks. I’m floored. Gutted. I lose my cool and she reminds me we said that even though the separation wasn’t about seeing other people we (she) did say we wouldn’t be exclusive because she didn’t want to feel tied down.
We again move on, although I now sign up for a dating site out of spite (cuz that’ll show her!!) but I realize I have no real desire to be on there and even if I did it wouldn’t be healthy for me or fair to anyone I ended up meeting. She also tells me she isn’t still on there (not sure I believe that one) and that she wasn’t looking for a hookup just to find people to talk to. Now we’re still “good” and when we’re together we tend to be close. Went to cut down a Xmas tree with the kids, decorated the house, and all that good stuff. When she’s at the studio though, things are different. She admits to not being able to work on herself and that she’s being self destructive. She sends texts asking if she should get a nose ring. She is trying to track down the man who raped her 30 years ago. She’s all over the place.
But I also start to realize how dependent I am on her for my happiness. I wait for her texts. I wonder what she’s doing when she’s at the studio. I look at Facebook to see what she’s posting. It’s constant. And brutal. Which makes me realize that I have to detach if I’m going to survive this, which is how I ended up on this site. Reading through the posts, especially Sandi2’s threads, I start seeing all the red flags. The manipulation. Being plan B (there have been nights where she’s called at midnight wanting me to come over). Of her having her cake and eating it too because I enable it. All of it.
At this point my goal is to detach and continue to GAL. I also need to figure out if I really want to fight for this marriage or if I’m just fighting for it to avoid the inevitable pain. Problem is, I can’t determine which emotion I’m feeling at any given moment is “real” and which is anger, hope, resentment, or love. And that’s frustrating as hell. So hopefully I can use this as a place to go instead of doing stupid things that I’ll regret tomorrow.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading my novel!
SD,
So you are in a tough spot right now. Seems like your W is going through something but hasn’t completely written you off. So do you sit and wait to see if she finds better or do you take away that option?
I will warn you that based on what you wrote sounds like your w went is going through something that may take awhile to get through.
Great job on working on yourself. Eventually you will be so far ahead you will not have any desire to look back.
You have some decisions to make for sure. You didn’t mention ages but I’m guessing the good old 40s lol.
Welcome aboard Saltydog I recommend you fasten your seatbelt because you are in for a rough ride.
Hey Salty, sorry that you are going through this tough time. Whilst our situations are identical, there are some things that do resonate with me. It sounds like you’ve come earlier than I did. Read the rules, listen to the advice, even when you don’t want to, it will help.
I too used acts of service to show my love but what was needed was words of affirmation and quality time. My W, could not for the life of her see how the nice things I did was me showing her love.
I’m no vet here, but I do know that so far what has helped, is not deciding whether you want her back or not, but accepting that what you had is gone and the rest is out of your control. Work on what you can control...yourself, it will be the best investment you make.
SaltyDog, welcome to the site. Sorry you are going through this but there are many good posters here that can help.
Obviously when you start introducing health issues that affect things, as well as meds (hers not being right, and you being on ADs) then that is another variable that can cause issues. I am glad to see you are in IC and on different meds, but I am hoping that you will eventually be off of all ADs with therapy. (I have a personal belief that too many people are immediately put on meds instead of going to IC to deal with their depression.) I think that is a great step.
Salty, your sitch reminds me a bit of mine. Without the studio and nesting. I am not a big fan of nesting. I think it confuses the kids, it becomes a new normal, and then there is the whole issue that the WAS is the one wanting to leave, why would the LBS leave even for 50% of the time? I advise LBSs that are considering agreeing to this NOT to.
You probably agreed to it out of trying to nice her back. In fact, that is a theme that seems to be running throughout your post. Playing family. Thinking things are getting better because you sleep together, have sex, being more vulnerable with her. All of that is in the category of "nicing" her back. You cannot nice her back. And you've learned this the hard way with the dating site thing.
Here is the thing, I had a very good advisor early in my sitch give me this simple truth. WAWs do not need their own place to find themselves or work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other people. Despite all of the family stuff and normal times, the elephant in the room is that she still goes to the studio, and expects you to when it is your turn. That is NOT normal. So no matter if the normal times are 50% of the time. or 75%, or even 90%. The time she is at the studio or expects you to be is the more important signal here.
But the reason you are confused is because you are dealing with an emotional creature that, right now, doesn't know what she wants. This was another big learning in my sitch. From minute to minute my WAW didn't know what she wanted. One minute she wanted to stay, the next to go. Your WAW is likely dealing with the similar feelings.
So what can you do? Obviously you need to detach. Getting out of the obsessive "checking up on her" will be a huge benefit to you. If you are that way when she is away, I doubt if you aren't that way when she is around. And she feels that pressure and pursuit from you. It is probably palpable. So detaching, backing off, giving her time and space is the best first step. Remember, the goal here is to remove ALL pressure and pursuit.
Second I would end the nesting. "I have thought about it and this isn't working. I think we should update the studio to a full apartment, and you should move there 100%. I will stay at the house. And we will work up a custody schedule." I have never seen nesting work. And if you do end up D'd you won't be nesting anymore. So I would rip that bandaid off.
Third, stop letting her cake eat. She is involved in an EA (I doubt it is over). She is advertising herself on dating sites (I think your reaction to her telling you this made her later say she was off of them.) She is wanting her own time and space at the studio, but then having you as her consolation prize (calling at midnight) and coming over to play family when she wants to. Ending the nesting will likely help with this, but you really need to study what it means when a WAW cake eats. If you haven't read DB/DR, get DR and read it.
Fourth, start going out and GAL. GAL is so important. It is much less likely to obsess over what she is doing when you are out GAL. GAL shows you that your life is going to be just fine no matter what she decides. GAL well helps you with the detachment process. There are no negatives to going out and GAL!
And then keep working on you. IC. Working on 180s. Becoming the best Saltydog that you can possibly be. That will set you up well for what comes next, whether she decides to stay or go!
Salty, the above is not easy. I understand that. It is easier to type it than to actually act on it. But this is what I think you need to do to start moving forward, start moving on, and to start living YOUR life again, not living a life being her plan B hoping she picks you.
Keep posting!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Wow - thank you for all the responses! I got 7 minutes before a meeting but will try and respond a bit now.
SD,
So you are in a tough spot right now. Seems like your W is going through something but hasn’t completely written you off. So do you sit and wait to see if she finds better or do you take away that option?
Yup. And how do I protect myself in the meantime while I figure out which to choose?
I will warn you that based on what you wrote sounds like your w went is going through something that may take awhile to get through.
I think you're right, and know I won't make it if I keep feeling like I do now on a day to day basis. It's exhausting. I guess the trick is figuring out how to not let it get to you while at the same time not building up resentment to the point where I'm the one who is gonna want to walk away.
You have some decisions to make for sure. You didn’t mention ages but I’m guessing the good old 40s lol.
Only for a few more years, lol!
So you are in a tough spot right now. Seems like your W is going through something but hasn’t completely written you off. So do you sit and wait to see if she finds better or do you take away that option? [/quote]Yup. And how do I protect myself in the meantime while I figure out which to choose?
I will warn you that based on what you wrote sounds like your w went is going through something that may take awhile to get through.
I think you're right, and know I won't make it if I keep feeling like I do now on a day to day basis. It's exhausting. I guess the trick is figuring out how to not let it get to you while at the same time not building up resentment to the point where I'm the one who is gonna want to walk away.
You have some decisions to make for sure. You didn’t mention ages but I’m guessing the good old 40s lol.
Only for a few more years, lol![/quote]
Unfortunately, the hardest thing for you right now is to realize there's *nothing* you can actively do that will change what she's going to do. Nothing.
You need to accept that, process it, surrender to it. That is the hardest part of all of this, the situation, in terms of what she does, cannot be changed by you. It's too late for that now.
If you want to reconcile, you're in a waiting game, and the only course of action that leads to reconciliation, IMO, is emotional distance and not actively trying to fix *anything* between you because that ship has sailed.
You need to focus on you, being the best man you can be, and taking your attention 100% off of her. Do not be her friend, do not be her safety net, do not engage with her at all beyond the minimum you can manage to co-parent. That's it. Try to get her out of the house as soon as possible, co-habitation will make things worse.
Does that sound like horrible advice? Is it scary? Are you convinced that certainly it doesn't apply to you?
That's all normal. Everyone feels like their situation is unique, and there must be some answer, some solution they just haven't discovered that is within their control. There isn't. You don't have an option that doesn't suck. You have to pick the least sucky option of all the sucky options you have and learn to accept that. The option that [censored] the least is protecting yourself by giving yourself emotional space.
Distance from her emotionally, but be happy, upbeat, successful and positive on your own. Fake it until you make it. That is quite literally all you can do, and that, my friend, is a very bitter pill to swallow.
Although it's impossible for you to see at the time, this is 100% survivable no matter how it goes. I've been happier divorced than I was for years being married. I 100% believe in marriage, and I miss the feeling and comfort of "being married" but I do not miss my ex at all, and her behavior should not have been tolerated for as long as it was. At the time I couldn't see it, I thought she was the most wonderful woman ever, and that certainly I could fix this. I was wrong on both counts.
This is the value of hind sight, and unfortunately for most people, you can't absorb it until you're ready.
Hello, sorry you are here but welcome!
But I do think there are some nuances that I haven’t come across reading through some of the other threads so I thought I’d share my story to see if I can get any feedback or ideas.
I didn't really read anything that stuck out as being different about your sitch, unless you mean the nesting arrangement? That's not that unusual.
During this time, especially the beginning, I took on most of the parenting duties. I already cooked all the meals, but now I was tasked with taking kids to soccer practices, events, doctor’s appointments, trips, etc. because she wasn’t able to do it. My love language being acts of service, I felt like I was 100% showing her how much I loved her because I did everything.
Ironically it was probably having the opposite effect and making you less attractive to her. All of those things are beta activities. Beta isn't a bad thing, but alpha is what women are attracted to. Beta is boring! Alpha is exciting. You've got to strike a balance between the two to keep the interest levels up. Like so many of us you went full beta thinking it was helpful to her. And it was, but she likely was no longer attracted to you as a man. You became a helpful roommate.
She says it isn’t about wanting to be with him or anything like that, just that I wasn’t there for her and he was and since he was around back when she was going through some hard times, he could relate.
I would say she's being mostly honest there. It usually does start out that way, the WAS loses the emotional connection and seeks it elsewhere. However, that doesn't mean she JUST wanted someone to talk to. She may imply or even tell you that, but don't believe it. You are now Plan B and she is actively pursuing a Plan A. She will do things to keep you on as Plan B, like throw you a bone now and then, have sex or whatever. You'll likely find this confusing because you -think- those are positive signs. But right here and right now, she is full steam ahead on replacing you. The sooner you realize that and start acting accordingly, the better.
The idea is to work on ourselves and see if we can figure things out.
That's just WAS script. Like Steve said, the REAL idea is to have a place to have sex with someone else.
seeing me come back has her thinking otherwise and that there might be some hope.
More script. Interpretation- "I want you to stay on as Plan B until I see how Plan A goes."
Last Tuesday we’re talking and she casually tells me she’s signed up for dating sites and asks if I would want to know if she went on a date with someone. That she doesn’t want to know if I go on a date unless she asks. I’m floored. Gutted. I lose my cool and she reminds me we said that even though the separation wasn’t about seeing other people we (she) did say we wouldn’t be exclusive because she didn’t want to feel tied down.
I get why you're gutted. You are hanging onto some threads of hope and misinterpreting her signals as meaning she may have changed her mind, and now you know she hasn't.
So where do you go from here?
Detach. Let her go. Accept that NO MATTER WHAT bread crumbs she may throw you, the marriage is OVER for now. That's not to say there's no chance of recon, but that is way down the road. And to get there, first you have to let her go and pursue your own, independent life. Remake yourself into "the spouse only a fool would leave". Stand for your M, but don't pursue your M. Give her time and space.
But I also start to realize how dependent I am on her for my happiness. I wait for her texts. I wonder what she’s doing when she’s at the studio. I look at Facebook to see what she’s posting. It’s constant. And brutal. Which makes me realize that I have to detach if I’m going to survive this, which is how I ended up on this site.
Yes that is perfectly normal, and yes you do have to detach for your own sanity. It's not as simple as flipping a switch (oh if only it were!!!) It happens slowly over time. You detach in phases. Be patient! Just understand things are not going to magically "go back to normal", that ship has sailed. All the snooping will only make you miserable, so start by trying to shut all that down. Don't "unfriend" her on FB, but "mute" her profile so you don't see her posts when you log in. Quit checking her profile. Don't snoop in her phone or anything like that, take it from me, you're more likely to be confused by what you see then to learn anything useful. It'll just leave you spinning even worse.
At this point my goal is to detach and continue to GAL. I also need to figure out if I really want to fight for this marriage or if I’m just fighting for it to avoid the inevitable pain.
We all resist change! I was married 20 years so I get it! You just want life to "go back to normal". It won't though, you've got to establish your "new normal". It's a grueling process but you can do it!
Problem is, I can’t determine which emotion I’m feeling at any given moment is “real” and which is anger, hope, resentment, or love.
Read, read and read some more! It sounds like you've read DB/ DR and possibly The 5 Love Languages as well. Also check out The Happiness Trap (it will help you understand your feelings are ALL legitimate, own them!), the Married Man Sex Life Primer (great book on alpha vs. beta behavior) and No More Mister Nice Guy.
Hey Salty, sorry that you are going through this tough time. Whilst our situations are identical, there are some things that do resonate with me.
I read through your thread and was going to comment on how similar some of our current situations are! Best of luck to you man.
I too used acts of service to show my love but what was needed was words of affirmation and quality time. My W, could not for the life of her see how the nice things I did was me showing her love.
Oh boy, can I identify with this. I think lately as we've tried to work on things she can now at least see I was trying (before she thought I just didn't care at all which blows me away!) but it still doesn't fulfill any of her needs knowing I was trying. It was like trying to get an unleaded car to run on diesel - doesn't matter how much you fill the tank up, it ain't gonna work.
I’m no vet here, but I do know that so far what has helped, is not deciding whether you want her back or not, but accepting that what you had is gone and the rest is out of your control.
Totally agree, but damn it is hard to do!
SaltyDog, welcome to the site. Sorry you are going through this but there are many good posters here that can help.
Thank you! And I agree - the posters here do a helluva job.
quote=Steve85]Obviously when you start introducing health issues that affect things, as well as meds (hers not being right, and you being on ADs) then that is another variable that can cause issues. I am glad to see you are in IC and on different meds, but I am hoping that you will eventually be off of all ADs with therapy. (I have a personal belief that too many people are immediately put on meds instead of going to IC to deal with their depression.) I think that is a great step. [/quote]The meds are definitely something I gotta figure out. Switching over to Wellbutrin from Lexapro has been quite a change. I'm still not sure if it is right for me but I basically went from not really feeling anything to feeling EVERYTHING at a level 10! I've cried more in the last month than I have in the last 20 years. The last time I cried before this was 2 years ago after getting my blue belt in jiu-jitsu. Learning to "feel" feelings again is a strange experience.
I am not a big fan of nesting. I think it confuses the kids, it becomes a new normal, and then there is the whole issue that the WAS is the one wanting to leave, why would the LBS leave even for 50% of the time? I advise LBSs that are considering agreeing to this NOT to.
I totally hear you and what others have said about the nesting. It is a struggle and I am not sure how I'm going to handle it. Right now I'm at the studio and have been all week and the problem I have is I ENJOY being here. It gives me the space I need to do my own thing and not be interrupted 100x a day. I love my kids and I love doing things with them, but with Covid and working from home while they are going to school from home, it makes for a stressful situation where I don't feel like I have the time or space to work on me. While I'm here I can blow off steam, take a break, read a book for 2 hours without being interrupted. So as much as I hate it when she's here (knowing what you've all said) I also don't want to give up my time here.
In fact, that is a theme that seems to be running throughout your post. Playing family. Thinking things are getting better because you sleep together, have sex, being more vulnerable with her. All of that is in the category of "nicing" her back. You cannot nice her back. And you've learned this the hard way with the dating site thing.
Definitely coming to this same conclusion. It's a hard habit to break.
Getting out of the obsessive "checking up on her" will be a huge benefit to you. If you are that way when she is away, I doubt if you aren't that way when she is around. And she feels that pressure and pursuit from you. It is probably palpable. So detaching, backing off, giving her time and space is the best first step. Remember, the goal here is to remove ALL pressure and pursuit.
I've started putting this into effect (no proactive messaging and only responding to things that need to be tended to and already seeing an increase in her messaging and her tone.
Fourth, start going out and GAL. GAL is so important. It is much less likely to obsess over what she is doing when you are out GAL. GAL shows you that your life is going to be just fine no matter what she decides. GAL well helps you with the detachment process. There are no negatives to going out and GAL!
Totally agree, now if we can get that stupid global pandemic taken care of I'd have a lot more options! lol.
I totally hear you and what others have said about the nesting. It is a struggle and I am not sure how I'm going to handle it. Right now I'm at the studio and have been all week and the problem I have is I ENJOY being here. It gives me the space I need to do my own thing and not be interrupted 100x a day. I love my kids and I love doing things with them, but with Covid and working from home while they are going to school from home, it makes for a stressful situation where I don't feel like I have the time or space to work on me. While I'm here I can blow off steam, take a break, read a book for 2 hours without being interrupted. So as much as I hate it when she's here (knowing what you've all said) I also don't want to give up my time here.
Well if she gets her own apartment full-time, you would get all of that alone time at home instead of the studio. So don't look at it as losing your alone time, just moving it back to the house.
I didn't really read anything that stuck out as being different about your sitch, unless you mean the nesting arrangement? That's not that unusual.
What struck me as different is most other threads seemed to have a lot more animosity, a lack of any desire of the WAW to be close or intimate (she has told me she'd like for me to "court" her again), and that for the most part things are "good" you know, except for the whole separation thing.
Beta is boring! Alpha is exciting. You've got to strike a balance between the two to keep the interest levels up. Like so many of us you went full beta thinking it was helpful to her. And it was, but she likely was no longer attracted to you as a man. You became a helpful roommate.
Damn, that hit home.
Remake yourself into "the spouse only a fool would leave".
I actually told her something like that back when we were in a counseling session. And since then I have also switched my focus because I think originally it was motivated by me wanting to get her back and now it's about being the best me I can be, regardless of her or what she thinks.
All the snooping will only make you miserable, so start by trying to shut all that down. Don't "unfriend" her on FB, but "mute" her profile so you don't see her posts when you log in. Quit checking her profile. Don't snoop in her phone or anything like that, take it from me, you're more likely to be confused by what you see then to learn anything useful. It'll just leave you spinning even worse.
This is such a battle and you are so right about needing to shut it down. I have a post-it note on my monitor that just says "Don't" on it. I tell myself that nothing good will come of it, best case I don't find anything which leads to more uncertainty, worst case I find something I don't want to see and I get gutted again. Either way, there's nothing I can do about it. So why is it so hard to stop doing it!?!? Stupid emotions trumping logic.
Read, read and read some more! It sounds like you've read DB/ DR and possibly The 5 Love Languages as well. Also check out The Happiness Trap (it will help you understand your feelings are ALL legitimate, own them!), the Married Man Sex Life Primer (great book on alpha vs. beta behavior) and No More Mister Nice Guy.
Thank you for the suggestions - I've read a few of them but the others are new.
"Snooping" is very addictive and it keeps your focus 100% on your wayward wife which isn't going to do you any favors. As much as it [censored] your best bet is to turn your attention elsewhere and stop looking for evidence.
She's going to "do her thing" no matter what you do, say, or feel about it. She doesn't need your permission or your blessing, which is a difficult thing to get your head around in the context of a relationship that used to be a partnership. It's not anymore, and the old rules don't apply.
Keep doing what you're doing. You have 0.0% chance to make this better while she is under the spell of another man. All you can do is last resort technique and ride it out. It will eventually end and at that point if you're still interested you can start to make inroads but for now it's a waiting game.
You need to focus on you, being the best man you can be, and taking your attention 100% off of her. Do not be her friend, do not be her safety net, do not engage with her at all beyond the minimum you can manage to co-parent. That's it. Try to get her out of the house as soon as possible, co-habitation will make things worse.
Does that sound like horrible advice? Is it scary? Are you convinced that certainly it doesn't apply to you?
Oh, it applies to me and yes it is scary. And there's always gonna be "yeah buts" that pop up along the way.
You don't have an option that doesn't suck. You have to pick the least sucky option of all the sucky options you have and learn to accept that. The option that [censored] the least is protecting yourself by giving yourself emotional space.
I subscribe to a weekly e-newsletter from James Clear, author of Atomic Habits, and this was in today's edition:
"Many people delay taking action because they hope to avoid suffering. They keep searching for a path that won’t involve tradeoffs.
But some form of suffering is always inevitable. The process of taking action is the process of choosing your pain."Good timing.
"Snooping" is very addictive and it keeps your focus 100% on your wayward wife which isn't going to do you any favors. As much as it [censored] your best bet is to turn your attention elsewhere and stop looking for evidence.
There's an old Simpsons where they have a koala that keeps climbing up a power line and getting shocked. And doing it again, and again. That's how snooping feels to me - I keep looking and all that happens is I get hurt.
I totally hear you and what others have said about the nesting. It is a struggle and I am not sure how I'm going to handle it. Right now I'm at the studio and have been all week and the problem I have is I ENJOY being here. It gives me the space I need to do my own thing and not be interrupted 100x a day. I love my kids and I love doing things with them, but with Covid and working from home while they are going to school from home, it makes for a stressful situation where I don't feel like I have the time or space to work on me. While I'm here I can blow off steam, take a break, read a book for 2 hours without being interrupted. So as much as I hate it when she's here (knowing what you've all said) I also don't want to give up my time here.
Well if she gets her own apartment full-time, you would get all of that alone time at home instead of the studio. So don't look at it as losing your alone time, just moving it back to the house.
But I would have the kids which would make it difficult to have alone time. We've got a 9-month lease on the studio and it can't fit 4 people if she was to have the kids. We're also trying our best to keep a semblance of normalcy for the kids. For the most part they've been stuck in the house for 9 months now because of Covid which has rocked their world. It might be better to just rip the band-aid off, but we're not there yet with the kids.
What struck me as different is most other threads seemed to have a lot more animosity, a lack of any desire of the WAW to be close or intimate (she has told me she'd like for me to "court" her again), and that for the most part things are "good" you know, except for the whole separation thing.
I will certainly not suggest you read through the gazillion pages from 10 years ago that I wrote about my sitch, LOL! However I will say your sitch is very similar to what mine was. My XW and I were very cordial and friendly after BD and even continued to have sex. We went to MC and continued to do things together as a family. This was very confusing to me and led to inevitable temp checks (before I found DBing), and each time I was slapped right back to the reality that she was 100% done. She did eventually leave and that was when it really hit home that she was serious about this. I was convinced there was not an OM even though everyone here kept saying there probably was. And surrrprisssse there was. I honestly thought my sitch was different and unique and that I stood a very good chance of a quick recon. And here I am 9 years later, quite divorced
I'm not saying D is inevitable for you, I'm just saying your sitch has more in common with the rest of us then it may seem.
The good news is there's plenty you can do to tilt the scales! That's kind of the point of DB'ing, you make yourself into this awesome man with a great mix of alpha and beta qualities, and eventually when your W looks back then that is what she sees, not some sad, depressed, desperate wreck.
I actually told her something like that back when we were in a counseling session. And since then I have also switched my focus because I think originally it was motivated by me wanting to get her back and now it's about being the best me I can be, regardless of her or what she thinks.
That is a GREAT attitude! You are quite right, we start out doing it as tricks to get our spouse back. But if you change that to striving to be the best YOU that you can be, then your changes will become permanent.
This is such a battle and you are so right about needing to shut it down. I have a post-it note on my monitor that just says "Don't" on it. I tell myself that nothing good will come of it, best case I don't find anything which leads to more uncertainty, worst case I find something I don't want to see and I get gutted again.
The post-it note is actually a great idea. In the book I suggested (The Happiness Trap) they describe a technique you can use where you visualize a giant stop sign in your head when you start spinning about snooping and such. It takes some practice but it does work! The book has some great tips and techniques on controlling your thoughts and processing your feelings.
So why is it so hard to stop doing it!?!? Stupid emotions trumping logic.
I don't know, don't we all wish he just had a giant internal circuit breaker we could flip and stop the madness, LOL! But we don't, so we learn how to do it slowly over time. And we backslide. When we do we pick ourselves up and keep pushing forward. You are going to do things you KNOW are wrong. Don't beat yourself up over it, just learn from it and keep pushing forward. One of the guys here kept saying that he thought his wife had a change of heart and he wanted to talk to her about it. IE- temp check. Several of us told him not to, that if she really did have a change of heart then she would be approaching him about it. But he just kept saying he needed to and offering justifications. I finally told him to do it. I told him he was not going to like what he heard, but if he was spending all that time obsessing over it then he needed to hear it from her so he could get back to detaching. Well he set a date to meet with her to talk, came back the next day and said we were all right, he got BD'd all over again. But it actually helped him because he really did start detaching after that.
There's an old Simpsons where they have a koala that keeps climbing up a power line and getting shocked. And doing it again, and again. That's how snooping feels to me - I keep looking and all that happens is I get hurt.
Yes exactly, we call it "touching a hot stove" around here! Some people touch it 2 or 3 or 4 times before they learn and others keep touching over and over until their hand is blistered, red and bleeding. Some are quicker studies than others
You need to focus on you, being the best man you can be, and taking your attention 100% off of her. Do not be her friend, do not be her safety net, do not engage with her at all beyond the minimum you can manage to co-parent. That's it. Try to get her out of the house as soon as possible, co-habitation will make things worse.
Does that sound like horrible advice? Is it scary? Are you convinced that certainly it doesn't apply to you?
Oh, it applies to me and yes it is scary. And there's always gonna be "yeah buts" that pop up along the way.
You don't have an option that doesn't suck. You have to pick the least sucky option of all the sucky options you have and learn to accept that. The option that [censored] the least is protecting yourself by giving yourself emotional space.
I subscribe to a weekly e-newsletter from James Clear, author of Atomic Habits, and this was in today's edition:
"Many people delay taking action because they hope to avoid suffering. They keep searching for a path that won’t involve tradeoffs.
But some form of suffering is always inevitable. The process of taking action is the process of choosing your pain."Good timing.
We must all suffer from one of two pains: the pain of discipline or the pain of regret.
But I would have the kids which would make it difficult to have alone time. We've got a 9-month lease on the studio and it can't fit 4 people if she was to have the kids. We're also trying our best to keep a semblance of normalcy for the kids. For the most part they've been stuck in the house for 9 months now because of Covid which has rocked their world. It might be better to just rip the band-aid off, but we're not there yet with the kids.
That sounds complicated, but you need to be at home. You've done nothing wrong. Until a court orders a custody deal, you should be there with your kids. A semblance of normalcy is great if things are normal, otherwise you are being deceptive and the kids will catch on to you. Just be straightforward: "Mom and Dad are having problems. We love you no matter what."
Definitely stop snooping and I wouldn't even be friends with her bc you don't want her crap popping up when you get online.
I will certainly not suggest you read through the gazillion pages from 10 years ago that I wrote about my sitch, LOL! However I will say your sitch is very similar to what mine was. My XW and I were very cordial and friendly after BD and even continued to have sex. We went to MC and continued to do things together as a family. This was very confusing to me and led to inevitable temp checks (before I found DBing), and each time I was slapped right back to the reality that she was 100% done. She did eventually leave and that was when it really hit home that she was serious about this. I was convinced there was not an OM even though everyone here kept saying there probably was. And surrrprisssse there was. I honestly thought my sitch was different and unique and that I stood a very good chance of a quick recon. And here I am 9 years later, quite divorced
I'm not saying D is inevitable for you, I'm just saying your sitch has more in common with the rest of us then it may seem.
I'll go back and read through your sitch. I know I'm different (like everyone else
) and I think I'm finally not under any false illusions.
I don't know, don't we all wish he just had a giant internal circuit breaker we could flip and stop the madness, LOL! But we don't, so we learn how to do it slowly over time. And we backslide. When we do we pick ourselves up and keep pushing forward. You are going to do things you KNOW are wrong. Don't beat yourself up over it, just learn from it and keep pushing forward. One of the guys here kept saying that he thought his wife had a change of heart and he wanted to talk to her about it. IE- temp check. Several of us told him not to, that if she really did have a change of heart then she would be approaching him about it. But he just kept saying he needed to and offering justifications. I finally told him to do it. I told him he was not going to like what he heard, but if he was spending all that time obsessing over it then he needed to hear it from her so he could get back to detaching. Well he set a date to meet with her to talk, came back the next day and said we were all right, he got BD'd all over again. But it actually helped him because he really did start detaching after that.
I can totally see the temp-check thing. Already with me going dark I'm seeing her reach out more and can tell she's trying to make sure I'm still here. I can see thinking that meant more than it really does.
As Forrest Gump said, I'm not a smart man. So as I mentioned before, once she got on Tinder, I got on as well. Cuz i'm gonna show her. Anyway, last night after too much wine I decide to hop on and like a few profiles. The next day, lo and behold I get a hit from one that isn't recognizably crazy from the get go. We chat. She asks if I want to get a drink. I say yes. We meet up at a brewery and I goes well. I am 100% honest about things and don't even pretend to try and play games. I have the opportunity to come back to the studio...and decide not to. I don't know what that means, I just know it would be wrong. I'm not gonna lie, it helped my ego and it got her out of my head, but I'm smart enough to know it wasn't right.
Ok SD so you got the ego boost so now what?
How does this change anything?
As Forrest Gump said, I'm not a smart man. So as I mentioned before, once she got on Tinder, I got on as well. Cuz i'm gonna show her. Anyway, last night after too much wine I decide to hop on and like a few profiles. The next day, lo and behold I get a hit from one that isn't recognizably crazy from the get go. We chat. She asks if I want to get a drink. I say yes. We meet up at a brewery and I goes well. I am 100% honest about things and don't even pretend to try and play games. I have the opportunity to come back to the studio...and decide not to. I don't know what that means, I just know it would be wrong. I'm not gonna lie, it helped my ego and it got her out of my head, but I'm smart enough to know it wasn't right.
Band-aid on a missing limb......................
Doesn't change anything about the whole situation at all. But I will say this, getting that ego boost (even if it was artificial) did help add a little bit of perspective. It allowed me to focus on something else for a while and reminded me that "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
SD,
If you really need a Tinder date to affirm that then you have some work to do my friend.
SD,
If you really need a Tinder date to affirm that then you have some work to do my friend.
THIS^^^
Self-esteem comes from within, not without. KNOW your own self worth, no matter what anyone else says or does.
SD,
If you really need a Tinder date to affirm that then you have some work to do my friend.
Fair point.
I don't know what that means, I just know it would be wrong. I'm not gonna lie, it helped my ego and it got her out of my head, but I'm smart enough to know it wasn't right.
Hopefully you got that out of your system and can set the whole dating thing aside for now. Rest assured that if and when you do decide to date, there are plenty of options out there. Just as many will be there a year from now, so there's no need to go rushing into something you're not ready for. I started dating about a year after BD because I thought I was ready. 6 months later I realized I had not been ready at all, but it was only with the benefit of hindsight that I could see that. And then another 6 months later I realized I STILL had not been ready. If I had it to do over again I would have waited the full 2 years. It may not be the same for everyone, but it took me that long to heal and get over my XW and be ready to open up to someone else. We often say to be patient, we're not just talking about be patient with the WAS. We mean with yourself as well.
I 100% agree with two years to be in a really good place looking at it from hindsight.
Yeah - I am under no illusions when it comes to dating. Last night was an impulse, but I'm not looking for anything now or in the near future. When I think about what it would be like if things don't work out, I picture myself embracing the bachelor life 100%.
Back at the house with the boys. Took the W to the airport yesterday as her step father is having heart surgery. She'll be gone until next Sunday. Our time together was pleasant. She remarked more than once about me looking good, losing weight, seeming "better", etc. so that was nice and I was in a good frame of mind. Felt good and in control. Of course, nothing can last and the thoughts started creeping in last night. Ideas, scenarios, suspicions, anxiety, heart pounding, all start coming back. I know in my head that I shouldn't be worried about those things because she's going to do what she's going to do regardless of my actions. I know I need to disassociate myself from those thoughts and focus on me and things I can control. But damn that is so much easier said than done.
I’m not here to give advice on what you should do. I’m here to try to help people not make the mistakes I did.
What she did my WW did to me and then a few days later after an argument told me she is never coming back. It destroyed me. Please do not Invest much into these little things. Sometimes they say that stuff because they feel bad for you and they want to cheer you up. It’s not love it’s not more than being nice. And we all no how much being nice means. Hang in there don’t let yourself get torn up with everything she says and does like I did. Stay strong and don’t let it effect you.
I’m not here to give advice on what you should do. I’m here to try to help people not make the mistakes I did.
What she did my WW did to me and then a few days later after an argument told me she is never coming back. It destroyed me. Please do not Invest much into these little things. Sometimes they say that stuff because they feel bad for you and they want to cheer you up. It’s not love it’s not more than being nice. And we all no how much being nice means. Hang in there don’t let yourself get torn up with everything she says and does like I did. Stay strong and don’t let it effect you.
Thank you for this. I totally understand what you're saying. I swear sometimes I hear the pity in her voice when she tells me some things. For whatever reason (I haven't been snooping, so no evidence) I just feel like something is going to happen with this trip. Just a sense of foreboding.
I just feel like something is going to happen with this trip. Just a sense of foreboding.
Going on trips after BD is common. Back when I was in that position I remember feeling out-of-control, anxious, and stewing upon it. I sent an upset text, which didn't help matters, lol. I remember another poster here went further and greeted their wife's homecoming with accusations, which REALLY didn't help.
See Scott's thread for a healthy way to handle this situation. Focus on what you control--you! This is the perfect time to see friends and family, discover GAL activities like fitness, or find fun ways to distract yourself (e.g., books, games, road trips). You may be sad here and there but it's constructive and will take the edge off. It makes you more attractive, whereas sending sad/angry messages does the opposite.
If you need to let off some steam, journal here about how you're feeling. ((Hugs!))
Going on trips after BD is common. Back when I was in that position I remember feeling out-of-control, anxious, and stewing upon it. I sent an upset text, which didn't help matters, lol. I remember another poster here went further and greeted their wife's homecoming with accusations, which REALLY didn't help.
Exactly. I keep reminding myself not to do something stupid, but stupid things keep popping in my head! Sometimes I'm good at redirecting my focus, and other times (like today) it is much more difficult.
See Scott's thread for a healthy way to handle this situation. Focus on what you control--you! This is the perfect time to see friends and family, discover GAL activities like fitness, or find fun ways to distract yourself (e.g., books, games, road trips).
Yeah, today I loaded the boys up and headed down to the beach. Waves were up which was cool to check out. Got some good clam chowder and fish n chips. Ice cream. It was fun and it definitely helped. I'm also looking to get away once she is back and just getting a rental down by the ocean for a few days. It's my happy place.
If you need to let off some steam, journal here about how you're feeling. ((Hugs!))
Thanks!
Hard damn night and morning. No contact for almost 24 hours, which is likely the longest time we haven't spoken to each other in one form or another in 15 years. She's still out of town, but of course is near the OM she had the EA with over the summer. I'm convinced she's seeing him. Why bother denying it? Found myself yelling at the kids last night after two of them got into an argument over electronics. I completely over-reacted and I know it is because I'm wound so tight right now. As part of my GAL I've started getting up early to work out, do yoga, and meditate. So I did that this morning and after my yoga and meditation, I just lost it. It all just came out in buckets of tears. Thankfully the kids are asleep - don't want them to worry or see that. I'm going to stay strong, not reach out, not ask questions, not snoop, or anything like that. I gotta treat it like it's all already over, because it is, and go through the process.
Not going to lie, the trip is a huge redflag. But it is out of your realm of control. Focus on what you can control: YOU. And your GAL this morning is doing just that.
Nothing wrong with getting your emotions out in private like that! Well done. (I used to break down in the shower.)
Not going to lie, the trip is a huge redflag. But it is out of your realm of control. Focus on what you can control: YOU. And your GAL this morning is doing just that.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the surgery is just an excuse to go down there. I have to fight the urge to call her on it and blow up, because what's that going to help? The only thing I need to figure out is if a PA is a dealbreaker. I think it is, but it's easier to say that than to follow through so I'm not going there yet.
Nothing wrong with getting your emotions out in private like that! Well done. (I used to break down in the shower.)
Yeah, in addition to posting on here I have a personal journal that had a much more profane entry this morning! lol.
Not going to lie, the trip is a huge redflag. But it is out of your realm of control. Focus on what you can control: YOU. And your GAL this morning is doing just that.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the surgery is just an excuse to go down there. I have to fight the urge to call her on it and blow up, because what's that going to help? The only thing I need to figure out is if a PA is a dealbreaker. I think it is, but it's easier to say that than to follow through so I'm not going there yet.
Nothing wrong with getting your emotions out in private like that! Well done. (I used to break down in the shower.)
Yeah, in addition to posting on here I have a personal journal that had a much more profane entry this morning! lol.
Trust your instincts. Some really good couple friends of ours, about 14 years ago she had an affair on him. She was going on business trips, and went to visit her parents, before he knew about the PA. He found out later the business trips were not business, it was her AP and her going on vacation together. And the trip to visit her parents was to introduce her AP to them (she told her parents that her and our friend were getting a D, he didn't even know she was cheating!).
I don't say all that to scare you but to get you to buttress yourself against it.
As far as whether it is a deal-breaker or not. Was it a deal-breaker before? Have you always said "If you cheat, we are done?"
Do not give up on your principles out of fear, or anxiety. "I am afraid to be alone, so I am going to overlook that she cheated.....even though I've always said it was a deal-breaker." Principles are principles. If you give up on that will you be able to respect yourself? And can you ever expect her to respect you again?
Trust your instincts. Some really good couple friends of ours, about 14 years ago she had an affair on him. She was going on business trips, and went to visit her parents, before he knew about the PA. He found out later the business trips were not business, it was her AP and her going on vacation together. And the trip to visit her parents was to introduce her AP to them (she told her parents that her and our friend were getting a D, he didn't even know she was cheating!).
I don't say all that to scare you but to get you to buttress yourself against it.
Yeah, at this point the ONLY thing that is going to surprise me is if she didn't actually do something while down there or that it wasn't an excuse. The hard part is going to be keeping my cool when we do talk and being detached. I got quite a few things I'd LIKE to say.
As far as whether it is a deal-breaker or not. Was it a deal-breaker before? Have you always said "If you cheat, we are done?"
Do not give up on your principles out of fear, or anxiety. "I am afraid to be alone, so I am going to overlook that she cheated.....even though I've always said it was a deal-breaker." Principles are principles. If you give up on that will you be able to respect yourself? And can you ever expect her to respect you again?
Yes, that has been the case for me. And I need to really sit with it and figure it out moving forward. So far I've rationalized and bent (her being on Tinder) without following through and all it has done is make me miserable. Need to get those boundaries set up.
Trust your instincts. Some really good couple friends of ours, about 14 years ago she had an affair on him. She was going on business trips, and went to visit her parents, before he knew about the PA. He found out later the business trips were not business, it was her AP and her going on vacation together. And the trip to visit her parents was to introduce her AP to them (she told her parents that her and our friend were getting a D, he didn't even know she was cheating!).
I don't say all that to scare you but to get you to buttress yourself against it.
Yeah, at this point the ONLY thing that is going to surprise me is if she didn't actually do something while down there or that it wasn't an excuse. The hard part is going to be keeping my cool when we do talk and being detached. I got quite a few things I'd LIKE to say.
As far as whether it is a deal-breaker or not. Was it a deal-breaker before? Have you always said "If you cheat, we are done?"
Do not give up on your principles out of fear, or anxiety. "I am afraid to be alone, so I am going to overlook that she cheated.....even though I've always said it was a deal-breaker." Principles are principles. If you give up on that will you be able to respect yourself? And can you ever expect her to respect you again?
Yes, that has been the case for me. And I need to really sit with it and figure it out moving forward. So far I've rationalized and bent (her being on Tinder) without following through and all it has done is make me miserable. Need to get those boundaries set up.
So what do boundaries look like to you? Because nothing looks weaker than saying something is boundary and then you taking no action when she crosses it.
"I refuse to be spoken to disrespectfully!"
She then speaks to you disrespectfully and you stand there and take it.
A true boundary is: "If she speaks disrespectfully to me I will say "I will not allow you to speak to me that way" calmly, then walkaway."
Boundaries are about the action you will take if the boundary is crossed. Boundaries are meaningless without action.
Right now the big boundary is if/when she has a PA and what I'm prepared to do. And in the past it was 100% - we're over. So I guess I need to stick to that. I'm just not sure if I should ask point blank if it happened, or just stay dark and detach and wait for the hammer to drop.
Hi SaltyDog, my experience reading here is the wayward spouse lies about 85% of the time. They also (facepalm) often convince the LBS their words are true and bury their activities--temporarily.
Hi SaltyDog, my experience reading here is the wayward spouse lies about 85% of the time. They also (facepalm) often convince the LBS their words are true and bury their activities--temporarily.
That does seem to be the theme reading through the threads. Which answers my question, don't bother asking anything because chances are you won't get the truth back in return.
I just booked a cabin for a few days down by the ocean. Need a place other than the studio to get away. Not going to give her any details other than I'll be out of town those days. I don't want to play games but I also don't feel like she deserves to know what I'm doing at this point.
Which answers my question, don't bother asking anything because chances are you won't get the truth back in return.
If she admits to an affair, then what? Are you ready to pursue D? And if she doesn't admit to one, will you believe her? You see, it's a no-win situation. And merely bringing it up is applying pressure to her, which is anti-DBing. What she wants right now is zero pressure. Pull back. Give her time and space.
I just booked a cabin for a few days down by the ocean. Need a place other than the studio to get away. Not going to give her any details other than I'll be out of town those days. I don't want to play games but I also don't feel like she deserves to know what I'm doing at this point.
That sounds good, I'm assuming you're doing this on a week that she has the kids. And if so, then go for it. That time is your own and you don't owe her any explanations.
If she admits to an affair, then what? Are you ready to pursue D? And if she doesn't admit to one, will you believe her? You see, it's a no-win situation. And merely bringing it up is applying pressure to her, which is anti-DBing. What she wants right now is zero pressure. Pull back. Give her time and space.
Excellent point and way to look at it. Thank you.
That sounds good, I'm assuming you're doing this on a week that she has the kids. And if so, then go for it. That time is your own and you don't owe her any explanations.
Exactly. I think I'll just go with "I'll be out of town" and leave it at that. What's the consensus on if she asks for more details? It's not like I'm doing anything I want to hide but at the same time I don't feel like being forthcoming at all right now.
Exactly. I think I'll just go with "I'll be out of town" and leave it at that. What's the consensus on if she asks for more details? It's not like I'm doing anything I want to hide but at the same time I don't feel like being forthcoming at all right now.
Would you be doing it just to pique her interest? If you are like most, the honest answer would be yes. It's likely not going to affect her either way. Early in my situation, I would sometimes give out information and other times change the subject. When I went to El Salvador, I let my XW know, and a part of me hoped she felt jealous. Thing is: it didn't matter to her. Don't think telling her is going to affect her in any way right now.
Would you be doing it just to pique her interest?
Yes and no. Of course it would feel like some sort of vindication if she felt like I do when she's out and about. But at the same time I feel myself wanting to close off from her, as if she doesn't deserve to know. If we were "married" she'd have that right, but she lost it when she started this whole mess. (I think I've moved to the "anger" phase, lol)
Also, I was wondering what the "correct" response is when she asks "I haven't heard from you, is everything all right?" Of course, nothing is all right but I feel like the correct response is just "yes everything's good." However, that seems deceitful and potentially counter-productive down the road if/when the topic comes up or it comes out that I am not all right. Is an answer along the lines of "Yes, everything's good. Just need some space to work on myself." giving too much information?
Hi SaltyDog, if you're willing to wait a couple of hours before replying to texts, you can wait until she asks a question before figuring out a reply. This gets you out of the realm of fantasy and into the realm of reality. The brainpower we spend worrying about WhatIf is better spent planning and executing GAL.
I think I'll just go with "I'll be out of town" and leave it at that. What's the consensus on if she asks for more details?
If going out of town is for you, and you aren't playing a game to pique her interest, then the simplest is to just go out of town during your kid-free time and say nothing about it at all.
Hi SaltyDog, if you're willing to wait a couple of hours before replying to texts, you can wait until she asks a question before figuring out a reply. This gets you out of the realm of fantasy and into the realm of reality. The brainpower we spend worrying about WhatIf is better spent planning and executing GAL.
Makes sense and I'm good with waiting, I'm just wondering what that kind of response should entail. Do you disclose you aren't OK in any way or keep up the front that everything's groovy?
Makes sense and I'm good with waiting, I'm just wondering what that kind of response should entail. Do you disclose you aren't OK in any way or keep up the front that everything's groovy?
I wouldn't. Act like you're having the time of your life. Actually, live that life. That's attractive. Become a man only a fool would leave.
On my way to jiu-jitsu tonight I was listening to The Four Agreements audiobook and had a bit of an epiphany. I've been so gutted, so torn up about all this. Thinking of her and what she's doing constantly. Almost envying her. Then there was a part in the book, and I don't remember what it was exactly, but the word pity popped into my head. And I realized, I shouldn't be envying her, I should be pitying her. She's so confused, she has no idea what she wants, she thinks she's finding happiness but it's only going to be superficial, and she's going to ruin her family and relationships with friends. What's to envy? And suddenly the pit in my stomach released a little and I realized I'm the one who has it good. I'm the one working to be a better person, who has sons who love him and friends to count on. If things don't work out, I will be 100% fine and I am also 100% she won't be. My only worry about that is we are stuck together in some way, shape, or form for the rest of our lives because of the boys so I want her to be as ok as possible for my own sanity down the road. So instead of moping and crying I need to remember to see this as a gift and to not let it go to waste. If she asks how I'm doing, the answer is sofa king good!!!
p.s. God I love jiu-jitsu and highly recommend it. Nothing like 2 hours of someone trying to choke you or break your arms and legs to get your focus back!
SD - that is an awesome revelation, and I am glad you had it! I remember that turning point for me - when i realized H was a mess and clearly having a difficult time, and I just felt bad for him instead of angry. Keep going on you! Even if she is later 100% fine, you also will be 100% fine, so it won't matter.
On my way to jiu-jitsu tonight I was listening to The Four Agreements audiobook and had a bit of an epiphany. I've been so gutted, so torn up about all this. Thinking of her and what she's doing constantly. Almost envying her. Then there was a part in the book, and I don't remember what it was exactly, but the word pity popped into my head. And I realized, I shouldn't be envying her, I should be pitying her. She's so confused, she has no idea what she wants, she thinks she's finding happiness but it's only going to be superficial, and she's going to ruin her family and relationships with friends. What's to envy? And suddenly the pit in my stomach released a little and I realized I'm the one who has it good. I'm the one working to be a better person, who has sons who love him and friends to count on. If things don't work out, I will be 100% fine and I am also 100% she won't be. My only worry about that is we are stuck together in some way, shape, or form for the rest of our lives because of the boys so I want her to be as ok as possible for my own sanity down the road. So instead of moping and crying I need to remember to see this as a gift and to not let it go to waste. If she asks how I'm doing, the answer is sofa king good!!!
p.s. God I love jiu-jitsu and highly recommend it. Nothing like 2 hours of someone trying to choke you or break your arms and legs to get your focus back!
I love the part about how great your life will be. Try not to spend any head space worrying about what will happen to her. Odds are things won't work out for her, but maybe they will. Thinking about how she ruined her life will only cause you pain. What if life ends up being awesome for her? Will that send you spinning? I'm two years post-divorce, and it appears my XW has zero regrets.
Salty,
I agree with Harvey, don't start considering her outcomes. There is every chance she will come out of this just fine. Or maybe she won't but you'll never know it. Either way, if you're hoping for karma or rock bottom or hard times for her as your salvation, you might be very disappointed. And if you truly love this person, wouldn't you want the best outcome for her anyway?
When my STBXW moved out in a few months ago, my Mum was there, and said her and her BF were like two excited teenagers on a big adventure. I've had no indication since that she's regretting her decision, in fact from what I understand she is loving life with the OM, but only she truly knows, so the only solution is to move on and focus on ourselves.
On my way to jiu-jitsu tonight I was listening to The Four Agreements audiobook and had a bit of an epiphany. I've been so gutted, so torn up about all this. Thinking of her and what she's doing constantly. Almost envying her. Then there was a part in the book, and I don't remember what it was exactly, but the word pity popped into my head. And I realized, I shouldn't be envying her, I should be pitying her. She's so confused, she has no idea what she wants, she thinks she's finding happiness but it's only going to be superficial, and she's going to ruin her family and relationships with friends. What's to envy? And suddenly the pit in my stomach released a little and I realized I'm the one who has it good. I'm the one working to be a better person, who has sons who love him and friends to count on. If things don't work out, I will be 100% fine and I am also 100% she won't be. My only worry about that is we are stuck together in some way, shape, or form for the rest of our lives because of the boys so I want her to be as ok as possible for my own sanity down the road. So instead of moping and crying I need to remember to see this as a gift and to not let it go to waste. If she asks how I'm doing, the answer is sofa king good!!!
p.s. God I love jiu-jitsu and highly recommend it. Nothing like 2 hours of someone trying to choke you or break your arms and legs to get your focus back!
This reminds me of a story about a family we know. They were the typical American family. They had met at a young age, had 3 kids. After the kids were old enough she went back to work after being a SAHM and raising her 3 kids. She eventually met another guy through work, and had an affair. When it came out of course she claimed that she had been unhappy, and that working and meeting this new guy was making her happy.
Her kids (2 grown adults now, the other mid teenage years) abandoned her. Her husband D'd her (adultery was a deal-breaker for him). She left, married the new guy, and started her new life. Her oldest daughter met a wonderful guy, got engaged. She planned her wedding without her mom. Sent her mom and invitation like you would an acquaintance and made it clear that she was invited but that her new husband was not.
We went to the wedding. We watched as her ex-H and their 3 kids behaved as a family would at a family wedding. She was on the outside looking in. When we left, the 4 of them were on the dance floor having the time of their lives. She sat in a folding chair off the side of the dance floor a complete mess, full out balling, tears streaking down her face. Was she happy? Was she really happy? Or as you point out was she only superficially so? People that turn to other people for happiness are never truly happy. This is why we advice LBSs AGAINST dating until they are truly ready. Thinking someone new can make you happy is superficial happiness. And we've seen that time and time again on this forum.
Your STBXW will wake up one day. She will realize the new guy isn't all that. She will realize what she threw away. She will realize that it cost her so much. Her kids will one day look at her and realize she was the reason for the marriage and the family breaking up. Deep down she will be miserable again, and looking externally for something to "make" her happy. She IS to be pitied just like you said because she has pain, anguish and unhappiness in front of her for a long time.
p.s. God I love jiu-jitsu and highly recommend it. Nothing like 2 hours of someone trying to choke you or break your arms and legs to get your focus back!
Yep! I love GAL activities that require full concentration and attention. I am on record here as my #1 GAL activity being going to the gun range. It required my full attention and focus and for that 1-2 hours I completely forgot about my WW and my sitch! So freeing................
I love the part about how great your life will be. Try not to spend any head space worrying about what will happen to her. Odds are things won't work out for her, but maybe they will. Thinking about how she ruined her life will only cause you pain. What if life ends up being awesome for her? Will that send you spinning? I'm two years post-divorce, and it appears my XW has zero regrets.
It isn't that I'm thinking she's going to be miserable down the road, I wouldn't wish that on her at all, and in the best case scenario we're together down the road. I just know right now - she's a mess. She's told me so and I'm seeing it first hand. So I'm only looking at the now, and how I shouldn't be sitting here thinking she's got it so great and moping around. I wouldn't trade places with her.
Your STBXW will wake up one day. She will realize the new guy isn't all that. She will realize what she threw away. She will realize that it cost her so much. Her kids will one day look at her and realize she was the reason for the marriage and the family breaking up. Deep down she will be miserable again, and looking externally for something to "make" her happy. She IS to be pitied just like you said because she has pain, anguish and unhappiness in front of her for a long time.
LH's response to me earlier along the lines of "if you needed a Tinder date to feel good about yourself, you're in big trouble" is what is sticking in my mind. The fact she's turning to those places to find "happiness" is just sad. I felt sad when I'd go on there out of spite and I felt like an idiot during my date because I knew I wasn't ready or up for that. She's a very intelligent person, and if she's thinking that's where happiness is then it shows she isn't really thinking these days.
She's a very intelligent person, and if she's thinking that's where happiness is then it shows she isn't really thinking these days.
That's because she's thinking with emotions right now. When decisions are made based on emotions there are sure to be consequences.
when she asks "I haven't heard from you, is everything all right?"
Wait several hours (or more). the longer you wait the better.
"yes"
"Yes, been busy"
"never better"
"Been busy. Yes I am fine"
I agree with the others, wait to respond and come here for direction to real messages if needed.
The Four Agreements audiobook
Always do your best
don't take anything personally
Never make assumptions
Be impeccable with your word
My lady has these tattooed on her back. Every time I read the book, I am at a different point in my life and something new resonates.
My lady has these tattooed on her back.
That seems extreme!
when she asks "I haven't heard from you, is everything all right?"
Wait several hours (or more). the longer you wait the better.
"yes"
"Yes, been busy"
"never better"
"Been busy. Yes I am fine"
I agree with the others, wait to respond and come here for direction to real messages if needed.
Thank you. As I've dragged myself out of the funk I was in yesterday I see these are by far the best types of answers. Of course she hasn't said a word, so who knows if I'll get to use them! lol
The Four Agreements audiobook
Always do your best
don't take anything personally
Never make assumptions
Be impeccable with your word
My lady has these tattooed on her back. Every time I read the book, I am at a different point in my life and something new resonates.
I literally just started the on the drive to jiu jitsu and to be honest, at the beginning I'm thinking "this is a bunch of granola eating BS" and was thinking of stopping but stuck it out. Boy am I glad I did!
Just got my first message from her in 48 hours. "It looks like you all had fun yesterday." That's it. I assume she's referring to Sunday because I posted on FB pictures of me and the boys down at the ocean. I'm going to let it percolate for an hour or two and respond with - "It was on Sunday and yes we had a great time!"
I don't see a need to completely go dark at this point. There wasn't an ultimatum or big blowout. The last we saw each other it was totally fine and I've already gone a very long time not reaching out which is out of the ordinary. If I flat out ignore her without any context it'll likely do more harm than good in the short term and unfortunately I have Xmas to think about. I don't want to ruin Xmas for my kids so my plan is to play along as much as possible while also DBing through the New Year.
You say she already knows it was on Sunday and she already knows you had a great time. How will it make you feel if she doesn’t reply?
You say she already knows it was on Sunday and she already knows you had a great time. How will it make you feel if she doesn’t reply?
I won't feel any different if she doesn't reply. I just feel like there's a difference b/t playing it cool and obviously ignoring her. Replying instantly is what I would usually do. Waiting a couple of hours is strange behavior that can be explained with "was busy doing..." if asked. Not replying at all is obviously ignoring her. I am totally open to that option down the road, I just feel like it would be like going straight to a triple dog dare and skipping the double!
If I were in the early stages of dating a woman, I wouldn’t respond to that text.
If I were in the early stages of dating a woman, I wouldn’t respond to that text.
Why wouldn't you?
You say she already knows it was on Sunday and she already knows you had a great time. How will it make you feel if she doesn’t reply?
I won't feel any different if she doesn't reply. I just feel like there's a difference b/t playing it cool and obviously ignoring her. Replying instantly is what I would usually do. Waiting a couple of hours is strange behavior that can be explained with "was busy doing..." if asked. Not replying at all is obviously ignoring her. I am totally open to that option down the road, I just feel like it would be like going straight to a triple dog dare and skipping the double!
Yo Salty Dog you are a different cat. Worried about replying to an insignificant text but also Tinder dating.
Don't let her ween herself off you. No need to respond. Waiting a few hours to respond (playing cool) sorry but it's senseless.
If I were in the early stages of dating a woman, I wouldn’t respond to that text.
Why wouldn't you?
That's actually a good question. Bent why wouldn't you?
If I were in the early stages of dating a woman, I wouldn’t respond to that text.
Why wouldn't you?
That's actually a good question. Bent why wouldn't you?
lol. Inquiring minds want to know?
Yo Salty Dog you are a different cat. Worried about replying to an insignificant text but also Tinder dating.
Yeah the Tinder thing was a mistake out of anger and booze. I've deleted the app.
Don't let her ween herself off you. No need to respond. Waiting a few hours to respond (playing cool) sorry but it's senseless.
I thought the point was to wait hours before responding and not jump when called, no?
I wouldn’t reply because it shows I’m not desperate for conversation with her when she hasn’t advanced the conversation herself. It would get her thinking why didn’t he respond, what is he up to. It shows I was confident enough to end the interaction.
Lol. With that attitude Bent you better get familiar with your right hand.
Look Salty Dog sure wait a couple hours and respond. I guarantee she won’t think to $hits about what you’re up to but will laugh and say I still got him when you respond.
Look Salty Dog sure wait a couple hours and respond. I guarantee she won’t think to $hits about what you’re up to but will laugh and say I still got him when you respond.
What if I wait 3 hours?
Lol. I’m sure she’ll be on pins and needles
Hi Salty,
As LH19 hints at, the stronger you DB out-of-the-gate, the more she'll feel your absence. She's on dating sites and potentially spending time with OM. How quickly do you need to reassure, "I'm still here!"
How would you feel about forgetting to reply--you're so busy and no questions?
How would you feel about waiting until tomorrow morning to reply?
Lol. With that attitude Bent you better get familiar with your right hand.
Why is that LH? That attitude worked for me with women before I met my W.
Hi Salty,
As LH19 hints at, the stronger you DB out-of-the-gate, the more she'll feel your absence. She's on dating sites and potentially spending time with OM. How quickly do you need to reassure, "I'm still here!"
How would you feel about forgetting to reply--you're so busy and no questions?
How would you feel about waiting until tomorrow morning to reply?
I see what you're saying. I guess my intent in responding wasn't to say "I'm still here" as much as "Yup - doing good!" because i know she's thinking something's up at this point. This is the longest we've gone without talking in 15 years. So there's obviously already a huge elephant in the room.
Bent, us women in our 40’s see right through those games and we hate them. Maybe it works on a 20 year old, not a 40 year old woman. We have no time for that anymore.
Lol. With that attitude Bent you better get familiar with your right hand.
Why is that LH? That attitude worked for me with women before I met my W.
Uuuummm you were in your 20s.
Don't make me sick Ginger on you.
Hi Salty,
As LH19 hints at, the stronger you DB out-of-the-gate, the more she'll feel your absence. She's on dating sites and potentially spending time with OM. How quickly do you need to reassure, "I'm still here!"
How would you feel about forgetting to reply--you're so busy and no questions?
How would you feel about waiting until tomorrow morning to reply?
I see what you're saying. I guess my intent in responding wasn't to say "I'm still here" as much as "Yup - doing good!" because i know she's thinking something's up at this point. This is the longest we've gone without talking in 15 years. So there's obviously already a huge elephant in the room.
Ok Salty Dog. Truth be told you are responding to ease your anxiety. Best to start going cold turkey right now.
Alright, I'm going to have to stew on this for a bit.
In the meantime, another question. So in years past she has handled the majority of the Xmas wrapping duties because A) I hate wrapping presents and B) I suck at wrapping presents. So we have all the presents for the kids being wrapped and I was thinking me wrapping them would be a 180 - thoughts?
Simple. Not a question. No need to respond. The urge to respond every time the WAS/WS reaches out is one of the 180s most LBS stand to make.
Alright, I'm going to have to stew on this for a bit.
In the meantime, another question. So in years past she has handled the majority of the Xmas wrapping duties because A) I hate wrapping presents and B) I suck at wrapping presents. So we have all the presents for the kids being wrapped and I was thinking me wrapping them would be a 180 - thoughts?
What's the alternative?
Alright, I'm going to have to stew on this for a bit.
In the meantime, another question. So in years past she has handled the majority of the Xmas wrapping duties because A) I hate wrapping presents and B) I suck at wrapping presents. So we have all the presents for the kids being wrapped and I was thinking me wrapping them would be a 180 - thoughts?
What's the alternative?
Not doing it and she'll have to do it as usual or she will ask me to help out.
I assume she's referring to Sunday because I posted on FB pictures of me and the boys down at the ocean.
SD,
Did you post many FB pics pre DB ?
im amazed how both the LBS spouse and WW hit Social media after DB.. almost trying to catch the others eye, while making it look like its "all about the kids"...
If not, she isn't stupid and will know the pictures were for her benefit.
SD,
Did you post many FB pics pre DB ?
im amazed how both the LBS spouse and WW hit Social media after DB.. almost trying to catch the others eye, while making it look like its "all about the kids"...
If not, she isn't stupid and will know the pictures were for her benefit.
Yeah, anytime I go anywhere with the boys (before this all happened) I would post it to FB. We don't have any family near us so it's always been a way to keep them in the loop.
Hi SaltyDog,
Sounds like a great 180, as long as you're doing it for yourself--it's a skill you've always wanted to add to your wheelhouse and not something you're doing to try to impress your ex. Gift wrapping can be simple, silly (disguise boxes), or artistry (fancy ribbons and bows). My D appreciates artistry. My S appreciates silly! As a single dad, being able to wrap gifts is a requirement unless you want to use bags, so why not?
Hi SaltyDog,
Sounds like a great 180, as long as you're doing it for yourself--it's a skill you've always wanted to add to your wheelhouse and not something you're doing to try to impress your ex. Gift wrapping can be simple, silly (disguise boxes), or artistry (fancy ribbons and bows). My D appreciates a well-wrapped gift. My S does not! As a single dad, being able to wrap gifts is almost a requirement.
It's a mix of both (for myself and to shock the sh*t out her). My usual method is to put everything in gift bags, shove in tissue paper, and call it a day.
Alright, I'm going to have to stew on this for a bit.
In the meantime, another question. So in years past she has handled the majority of the Xmas wrapping duties because A) I hate wrapping presents and B) I suck at wrapping presents. So we have all the presents for the kids being wrapped and I was thinking me wrapping them would be a 180 - thoughts?
What's the alternative?
Not doing it and she'll have to do it as usual or she will ask me to help out.
I say do it. One last logistic to have to work out with her.
Alright, I'm going to have to stew on this for a bit.
In the meantime, another question. So in years past she has handled the majority of the Xmas wrapping duties because A) I hate wrapping presents and B) I suck at wrapping presents. So we have all the presents for the kids being wrapped and I was thinking me wrapping them would be a 180 - thoughts?
What's the alternative?
Not doing it and she'll have to do it as usual or she will ask me to help out.
I say do it. One last logistic to have to work out with her.
Funny, I thought the same thing. Usually in this type of situation I'd text her asking some question or another about wrapping paper or something stupid like that. Anyway, guess I should start a new thread.
New thread