Hi all, I’ve been reading the forum and threads related to my sitch, and realized that people here are very knowledgeable, experienced and very friendly and ready to help. I really appreciate the fact that in these crazy times there are still good people in this world that do good deeds without gaining anything material in return. You are fantastic!
I am going through a pretty hard period, which is probably expected since I am posting here. This might end up being a pretty long message for which I apologize up front, but I think some details are needed to give proper insight in what is happening - and give you some material to be able to answer my questions and provide some suggestions on the best next steps.
I am 33 years old, my W is 35. We’ve been together for more than 10 years, lived together for 6 years, 4 years married. We have a 2 year old D.
Our relationship started in a tough period for both of us - we both were “fresh” out of longer relationships, in our early 20s, with those relationships being our single “serious” experiences, especially in terms of sex. I could see that from the beginning, as she was pretty reserved and “stiff” when we started getting intimate. I was also still recovering from my previous relationship, so our sexual life was pretty rocky from the first day - after a few unsuccessful attempts due to my inability to relax and get things going, we finally were able to make a breakthrough, and start our sexual connection besides the emotional “brakes” that existed at the beginning. And honestly, the sex in the beginning was nothing special - at least compared to my previous experience. She did not seem to enjoy it at all - wanted it to start fast and end fast. So I raised it at some point with her - and she opened up saying that her previous BF of 3 years never cared about if she was enjoying, was pretty self-centered in bed, and sex was just something she was doing with him to keep things moving forward as she was young and thought that he is a good guy to be with. And she admitted never having an orgasm with this guy. I was shocked. So I started working on it, giving special attention of doing things a bit slower, relaxing her, pleasing her in different ways until our sex became great - both of us enjoying, having orgasms often and being happy most of the times. But even then, I would somehow say that it was never about sex when it comes to two of us. Everything else was more important than it - as we turned out to be extremely compatible in every other aspect of life. We are both educated, hedonists, like traveling, eating great food, enjoying music and art, developing our careers etc, so we had a blast. Nobody seemed to mind the “lack” of the sexual moment, even though it wasn’t actually lacking, just not being the focus of our relations.
Our friends would always label us as a perfect couple - and somehow I always thought we are exactly that. We were always exchanging smiles, touches, kisses, and expressing love to each other. Of course, we had our ups and downs, as each two adults will if they spend so much time together, but nothing too serious. The only sitch when I actually questioned our future happened some 5-6 years ago when I was going through a rough period at work - so I started visiting a therapist to fight my later diagnosed “light general anxiety disorder”. I was never on any medication, managed to cope through all of that just by reading, exercising and talking to the therapist and my wife. She was supportive, but at one point started questioning if I am the person she fell in love with in the beginning or someone else who became depressed and ready to give up. This really gave me a strong moral boost - I prioritized getting better, and really did. I worked out, lost weight, started exponentially excelling at work. Everything got back to normal - or not just normal, even better than before.
She had a rough phase as well a year after me, when she wanted a career switch. I supported that completely so we overcame that fairly quickly. She started a new job after less than a year of learning her new skills and being unemployed, and has been excelling since. I am so proud of her. She is still making significantly less money than I am, but that was never important as she never lacked anything with me.
And while all of this was happening, our SL was getting a bit sidelined, in terms of not really trying anything new. It became pretty straightforward - usually over the weekends, when we aren’t working, we have sex in our bedroom. We start with oral foreplay, and end up with a few regular positions. So pretty much never being spontaneous like doing it in the kitchen, toilet, car or trying anything new. No quickies during work week. Just weekends. But pretty regular weekend sex. I raised it first, roughly 4 years ago. The feedback I got was - “This is not a problem for me, we were never spontaneous anyway. I am not that much of a sexual person, I am pretty ok with not being too creative, and the sex we have is enough for me. Both in terms of quantity and quality”. And I felt the same to be honest. I didn’t need more. So we concluded that we don’t really have a problem.
As a side note - for some reason, I am usually pretty attractive to women. I am not an extremely beautiful or handsome guy - but I have decent looks. Tall, used to be athletic, still muscular even though I gained some weight. Pretty successful at what I do, dress well, eloquent and extrovert. So I’ve had my chances of “doing something naughty on the side”... Multiple times. From colleagues at work openly flirting, to actually even getting open offers for “one-night-stand” at business conferences or parties. Never even for a moment considered any of those. Because honestly, my MR was so perfect to me, I did not want to jeopardize it in any possible way. I did not need that. Were those women sexually attractive to me? Yes. But not worth it.
Even when sex became even more seldom, some 3 years ago… Like once/2 weeks, or sometimes once a month. We talked about it (I was the one raising it first again), we both agreed that it would be nice if we could do it more often as before, but that nobody feels too bad about it and we shouldn’t treat this as a “must”. Let’s try and see what happens. Not really a problem. For a short period of time we had sex every weekend again. It was decent, as before. Nothing new, just standard sex that we both seem to enjoy. Then she got pregnant with our D. I had a block for some reason when she started having the “tummy”. She wasn’t any less attractive to me, but some irrational fear of hurting the baby would work its way into me, and I just was not able. So we had a “sex-less” period of around 6 months. After the birth, as soon as the doctor gave us green light, we started having sex again. She was a bit shy initially, claiming that she hates her body after giving birth. For me - something wonderful happened after the birth. She became 10 times more attractive to me, with all those tiny imperfections that pregnancy brought. This led to sex being better than ever for me - lasting longer, both having orgasms pretty regularly. At least that’s what it looked to me. After a few months we got back to our schedule of having sex once per month…
And that continued until this very day. The only change I recently noticed is that she would react if I gave here some “naughty” touches during the day, or insinuating sex. At first I thought it might be due to our D being there sometimes. Everything else was perfect - enjoying life as before, now even as a family of three, I was so happy...
But something was still really bugging me - why do we have sex just once a month when it is actually good? And she is very attractive to me now, more than before - and I’ve even told her this several times, to help here overcome her uncertainties as well as since this was absolutely true. And why does she seem to be avoiding my touches and calls for sex recently? So I asked her… And that is when IT all started…
She opened up to me. Saying that she has been seeing us more as “brother and sister” than “man and woman” for more than 3 years now, even from a bit before the pregnancy. That she does not feel sexual attraction for me any more. That sex itself is not necessarily bad or an act of suffering for her when it happens, but that anything before that is very hard. Getting ready for it, doing it for the sake of being a “good wife”, and all that leads to the sex itsellf is a struggle for her. And when we get there, it always starts with me orally pleasing her - she says that every time this happens the start is very rough for her as she feels guilt and awkwardness due to lack of that sexual attraction. Then when she gets “horny” after a few minutes of keeping her eyes shut, she pushes through it and sometimes even enjoys the rest of it, sometimes even has an orgasm, but still it results in her not really wanting this sincerely, and sometimes just acting that she enjoys. That sometimes she even cries secretly afterwards. That she loves me but is very afraid of all of this, feels lost and like this is something she has no idea how to cope with. That she was planning never to tell me anything about it and just continue living with it, hoping it never becomes so big of an issue to break us apart, as she loves me very much and believes everything else in our MR is just perfect. She even mentioned she was thinking how she might be ready at some point in the future if this continued to give me green light to find some OP on the side to please me sexually, if I am able to do it discreetly and with nobody else knowing.
I was devastated (still pretty much am, but after reading a lot of stuff here I feel a lot better). At the start, I started questioning everything in my mind. Do those gentle kisses and touches that she likes she actually doesn’t like? Is she acting every time she is having an orgasm? Is there someone else? If not now, was there someone else before? I don’t really want any other women, if I wanted I would have done it multiple times...
I took a deep breath, and started asking some of these questions. She seemed very confused, stressed and was always on the brink of crying. She claims she has no idea why and how this started. The only thing she knows that added to it is the fact that I am making some sex-related jokes that are a really a turn-off for her, and that we have started being too close in terms of nobody really having any privacy at home (going to toilet with open doors, seeing our worst sides when someone is ill or going through hard times etc). She didn’t explicitly say if there was anyone else at any point, but indirectly I got the impression that there wasn’t an actual affair, but that she might have sensed sexual attraction to someone else. But in the last couple of months she lacks sexual urge generally, and doesn’t even have a need to please herself.
She also said that she is afraid that this thing might ruin us as she doesn’t know if she is able to revive this attraction, and that this might be a pandora’s box that we don’t want to touch. That it might be the best just to ignore it all and not make a big thing out of it, as everything else is perfect and we love each other so much. I told her that after me now knowing all of this - there is no return. She then agreed and started crying. She immediately said that she wants to do everything possible to strengthen our MR and resolve this. We immediately concluded that we should probably seek professional help. I quickly found a renown Marriage Therapist, and made an appointment which is due to happen in a few weeks from now.
We agreed to try and not talk too much about this before we start therapy, as she is afraid she might say some things in a “wrong way”, so I can misunderstand them and get my ego hurt even more, taking us a step further from getting this resolved. So now we both hope that actually tackling this with professional assistance will help us in recovering our MR and getting it back on track.
But I am not sure if this is the right way to do it? Or should I try and get to know as much as possible before even going to the Therapy? Because obviously from her fears there is a lot more that she hasn’t yet shared… Should I openly question if there was or is any OM? I really don’t see how this could have happened considering our daily routines, but reading through a lot of threads here and on other websites, somehow these things usually end up being a combination of two people not working on their sexuality in marriage, and W then falling for someone else in the meantime. I think I can live with not knowing more until we actually start talking about this with the Therapist, but wanted to check if you think this is actually the best way to go, or should I continue digging and asking her before starting the Therapy?
And does this seem like a sitch that is possible to resolve, considering that it was happening for so long without me even noticing how much it escalated? I am really ready to do anything that needs to be done - as I don’t really want to think about finding someone else to spend my life with. But I also don’t want us to stay in a MR where one or both of us are suffering and are timed bombs… It hurts extremely even thinking about ending the MR, and I really hope this will not happen.
Thank you all, any thoughts and advice are extremely appreciated!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Welcome to the board. Sorry you are hear. The good news is that your sitch is much different than most posters' here. Most of us came hear because our S wanted out of the marriage. I am not seeing that here, though you were headed there if you didn't address this problem. I highly suggest you get and read Michelle's book "The Sex Starved Marriage". The good news is that this is one of her few books available digitally! Get it and read it.
I do have a question. I find it strange that you say you are both hedonists, but that sex wasn't that important in your relationship. That seems odd. Are you sure you are both really hedonists, and not that you just like the thought of hedonism? I have never heard the words "sex isn't that important" come from a hedonists lips.
Second. Michelle's SSM book will deal with a lot of this, but usually a woman uses attraction for her husband for 1 of 2 reasons. 1, she has lost respect for him. Or 2, there is no intimacy outside of sex in the marriage. Please tell us more about your life. Who is the main breadwinner? Who handles the bills? Who makes decisions for the family? What is your non-sexual life like? Are you romancing her? Taking her out on dates? Do you engage in fun, light, sharing type of conversations with her? Do you touch her in a non-sexual manner on a daily basis?
I can tell you, as a guy that was in a SSM for years, and used my resentment and hurt to pull back from being a good husband and keeping a connection of a non-sexual intimate nature alive, that not being connected outside of the bedroom is no way to keep a connection inside of the bedroom alive.
What I can tell you also is that with help (good job on the therapy), and looking to become a better husband (and father if you have kids, you mention pregnancy but you don't mention kids). Do not push on there being an OM, the truth has a way of coming out. Back away from this subject with her until therapy starts.
I would encourage you to look up "talk charges" and "touch charges". I think your sitch is a perfect sitch to start trying to incorporate these on a daily basis to start helping with the connection between the two of you. Hold off on date night for now until you get into therapy.
Calm down, relax. This is not the end of the world. Your sitch is no different after this discussion with her than it was before. The only thing that has changed is your understanding of what is going on! That is a good thing. So many of us just continued along in our MR coasting until we got divorce bombed one day. So you are in a much better position than many of us were. So let things go. Do not dwell on it or constantly try to talk about it. Start looking at the small changes you can make. Stop any and all behaviors that do not command respect. Things like video-gaming. So many in your age group spend inordinate amounts of time video-gaming! If that is you stop. If you are a daily drinker, stop that! No one wants to be with someone that is not sober most of their home time. If you are self-isolating (this was my big problem) stop doing that! When you are home be out in the common areas of the home engaging with the rest of the family! If you are wishy-washy on decisions, (another one of my issue) start becoming more decisive. (One of the best examples of this is deciding what and where to eat. Most husbands are "i don't care" in their attitude towards that. Stop that. Say "For dinner tonight let's go to X!" or "tonight for dinner I'd really like Y!")
So two areas of focus for you:
- Start subtely working on your emotional connections with her (see talk and touch charges)
- Stop any behaviors that are not commanding respect and learn how to properly command respect and be decisive (IE learn to LEAD)
Then when you get into therapy you can work on the things the therapist suggests.
My last bit of advice. DO NOT SULK AND BE SAD. But upbeat, pleased, fulfilled, and confident. Nothing is less attractive than a man that goes into "poor me...woe is me" mode.
Oops, ignore the bread-winner question, you already answered that. Sorry, went into "usual advice" mode on that!
Let's not forget Intimacy & Desire, Dr.David Schnarch. Read it asap!
Sorry you are here. Already getting good advice!
Find out if you are a “nice guy”. Glover has been on a few podcasts so listen to one or two to get an idea.
I believe there is one about sex so start with that. If you are you have to read it!
Let's not forget Intimacy & Desire, Dr.David Schnarch. Read it asap!
This!
Are you still in IC?
Hi Benji, Steve already said what I was going to, and that is that you are actually in a much better position than most of us were when coming here because your wife has not delivered the "bomb drop" and it sounds like while the attraction may be waning, your W is not to the point of wanting to separate. That's actually good, you caught this much earlier than most of us and she (hopefully) hasn't hardened her heart yet. Definitely check out Michele's SSM book as Steve suggested. I would also suggest you read The Five Love Languages, it's a good companion book to Michele's books. Also read Divorce Remedy, you're not at that stage but I think it would still be helpful to read it.
If your W is open to sex and/ or marriage therapy then definitely pursue that. Give it time to work, don't pressure her. Right now she's probably feeling trapped and the more you can relieve the pressure on her the less trapped she'll feel.
Good luck and keep posting!
My heart goes out to both of you. A lot of couples experience this situation in their MR. I can relate with the things your W said to you, about trying to push through with it, and not wanting to hurt you. I remember thinking something must be wrong with me, b/c I was not sexually attracted to my H. I carried the guilt for years, and it finally turned into resentment and blame. It can destroy a MR. He felt completely rejected, and I felt pressured and guilted.
Couples have to have time for romance. Women crave romance. He doesn't have to take her to the most expensive place to have dinner, or have flowers delivered. It's how he interacts with her throughout the day. He shouldn't wait until he wants sex to start flirting with her, b/c she'll know it's just his attempt to get sex. He has to make love to her brain, on a regular basis, instead of waiting until bedtime. And, all women may not want to start out with oral, but build the momentum.
If she has told you the jokes turns her off.........take it seriously! My H would do this "thing" that I hated. I would tell him I didn't like it, but he continued doing it. Now, what kind of sense did that make? Did he think if he continued, that I would eventually like it? I had to get pretty harsh about it, before he finally stopped. I knew he was hurt, and that he couldn't understand my problem with it. The longer a couple goes without those nonsexual touches every day, and intentionally setting aside time to nourish their daily relationship........feelings will fade and the MR will die.
Read the book about the five love languages. Figure out which one fits your W. Her self esteem is suffering, and if she doesn't feel good about her body.......she's not going to feel sexy. I've been there! Start showing your love through her love language. It's a great book.
I see marriages in trouble when both the spouses are career driven, and it takes up most of their time. There is just 24 hours in a day, and when you have an intimate relationship.....it requires time. When you have a child, it requires even more time. So, couples have to decide their priorities and make it work. Unfortunately, I see too many couples putting their MR on the bottom. They are so overworked from their busy lifestyles, is there any wonder their sex life goes south?
I encourage you to read about the differences between male & female, in how their brain works. Don't try to make your spouse more like you, but learn to respect the differences.
I suggest you stop using the toilet in front of her. I don't find it attractive when a man farts in front of his W, or makes crude remarks/jokes. When in public, be careful how you talk to her, about her, and how you interact with her in front of friends/family. Don't make her the butt of a joke, or expose her personal faults, etc. I've seen men do this, thinking it would get a laugh from his friends, but he is digging his own marital grave when he devalues his W. Don't fall into the "one up" game, either.
There is a time to be tender and a time to be firm. I don't know if you are an Alpha or Beta, but reading No More Mr. Nice Guy should help spotlight it. We can talk about this more later, if needed.
The main danger in your MR at this time, is your W not getting her emotional needs met. It leaves her vulnerable. There may not be another guy in the picture, yet, but eventually, she's going to respond to someone who makes her feel special. All these on line apps that are making millions off spouses who have low self-esteem about their appearances, and needing to know others find them sexually attractive.........well, it speaks for itself. Some women don't get involved with a real-life man, but will turn to romance novels and escape into fantasy. Don't laugh when I tell you that it plays on her, b/c she wants to experience this type of romantic passion. Some women fantasize about celebrities, and it goes beyond what you might consider "normal". The celebrity, or fictional character substitutes the mind space that was given to her H. Now, she does some comparing, and the H loses b/c he can't match her fantasy. It has much the same affect on her as an emotional affair.
I'm glad you made the decision to come here. I hope you'll stick around.
Again, you are getting VERY good advice already. Follow it!
Sit down and take real time to read it, then do your home work. You mentioned digging to understand more. I think you need to dig real deep to understand yourself first and foremost.
After reading your post again in more detail it reminds me SO much of my R about three years ago when our first D was 3. She is now 6 and I am divorced.
Looking back and knowing what I now know about myself in relation to NGS, sexual desire, boundaries, validation, etc I could have probably prevented things.
So I would give your sitch a good chance. But again, Do your homework! So many here don’t really do it at first.
When we say read through the welcome thread, yes we mean read very single post in all the links. In your case, make sure to read about validation and boundaries. Then move on to the books mentioned above here. Read all of them before your first therapy session.
I was your wife in my situation. The relationship timeline and sexual history is very familiar. Even down to giving him 'permission' to seek sex elsewhere if things continued down that path. Her story resonates with me in a big way. I'd be really surprised if there was an OM in your case.
I was so emotionally starved after our baby was born. My X gave all of his emotional currency to his friends, coworkers and video games, and eventually left me and our S2 for OW. He reserved for me only what currency was required to pressure me into sex.
I commend you for taking her seriously. It sounds trite, but the only reason your MR will fail is if one person stops caring about fixing it. In my case, I was the only one pushing for MC, going to IC, trying to fix myself because I believed that I was the only problem.
No matter how hard I tried, it was never going to work because the other person didn't value the marriage enough to save it. Honestly, I think your wife is confused and stressed and upset because she's afraid you will leave her after her admission.
Now that you have more information, you can make an informed decision. If this is the most she can offer in terms of sexual intimacy (right now) then you are allowed to decide it's a deal-breaker for you. It won't be fun to divorce, but it will be honourable and respectful of the time you shared together.
Or, you can try to amp up the romance and fantasy to rekindle her sexual attraction. Ask her what she needs to feels wanted and desired. Make deposits into her emotional intimacy bank without expecting any reward. TAKE CARE OF THE BABY WITHOUT BEING ASKED! Try to anticipate her needs.
There is no downside to trying as long as you can untie your actions from an expected outcome. Give to her because you love her, and you want her to be happy, and it benefits your daughter to have a happy mother. She's telling you she can't pour from an empty cup. Don't poke more holes in it with guilt or pressure.
There are ways you can encourage her to get in touch with herself as a sexual being-- IF she is interested. 'Come As You Are' is a great book about female sexuality. She probably feels a lot of guilt about not being 'normal'. Create opportunities for self-pleasure without the expectation it must lead to sex.
One last thing-- take the bodily function complaints seriously!
Good luck.
Hey Benji, come talk to us.
First of all, I just want to say - wow! All this help and advice so fast, it really gives me optimism! Thank you all, you fantastic people! I’ll try to address most of the topics you shared, sorry if I miss something.
@Steve85
Thanks for the recommendations - I immediately got Michelle's book "The Sex Starved Marriage" and started reading it!
I also read about Talk/Touch charges and started practicing them very discreetly today.
When it comes to your questions about hedonism - you might be right, and we might just be the people who think they are hedonists. My primary intention was to emphasize that we enjoy a lot of similar things that we have been investing our mutual time into, while neglecting our sex life, unfortunately.
@BenB - added Intimacy & Desire by Dr.David Schnarch to my list as well
@Mumin
I am not in IC for a while now, had a few months relapse a year ago, but it lasted just for 2 months and then I stopped with it again. So no IC for more than a year now.
And I take what you said very seriously now - I did start reading the books, but I’ll go back to Step 1 and first go through all relevant threads.
@AnotherStander
Thanks for the recommendation, added Five Love Languages to the list as well!
@sandi2
Sad to hear that you went through a lot of this stuff. I hope you were able to get all this great advice and guidance and managed to get to a point where you feel good again.
I started working on improvements immediately - at least for the small stuff like bad jokes, going to the toilet with an open door and similar, and she praised this herself yesterday saying that she feels that I am doing something to improve and address her complaints already. This is hopefully a good sign.
I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc. I don’t want her to feel that I’m pressuring her to have sex every day now. But I do feel the urge to try and get close to her emotionally and physically, so she doesn’t have the need to look for it somewhere else.
@scout12
So sorry to hear that you were going through a similar sitch with your H and how it all unfolded. I wish I had the knowledge to give you some advice how to cope with this, but this is so new for me that I feel like I’m learning to walk again...
I am really not even thinking about D at this point and am ready to do whatever it takes to save our MR. I just hope she will not lose faith and give up down the road. Because I can only imagine how hard it is for her, feeling how she feels, and not feeling sexual attraction for me. It probably makes her less motivated to work hard on this then me…
I do have some updates as well:
Besides the talk/touch charges and controlling the things she was complaining about, I also started working on self-improvements in general - I started exercising more, as I want to get back in great shape and feel great physically, and am focused on delivering good results at work for the past week or so.
I am not pressuring her in doing anything really, just going with the flow. Giving her occasional compliments, kisses and touches. She does feel a bit stiff, and sometimes not in the mood to sit close to me and touch me.
But we did have sex once in meantime, and it was her initiative to do so. I am not sure if she did this just to “get me off her list of duties” for the next few weeks, I was really surprised when this happened. Honestly, I felt like it was my first time - I was petrified that I am going to do something wrong. So it wasn’t such a great experience and it was short, but it opened up a discussion. She admitted that sex with is not that bad in general, and that often times she really enjoys it. But even though that is the case, she lacks the desire to start it and have it, because everything surrounding that “event” is most of the time repulsive. She says that she feels like there was a certain “quantity” of attraction she felt for me, but that all of that was “spent” throughout the years, and she is now not sure if and how this can be restored. She is afraid that it is gone for good and cannot be restored. This is the thing that frightens me the most - her constant repetition of the phrase that somehow those feelings of attraction were all “used-up” and she sees no clear way of restoring that. She said she hopes the therapist will give us some exercises that would help igniting this again…
We will be going to a “date” in a few days, going out for dinner - just the two of us. I did not initiate this because of anything I read, but she mentioned she misses eating a certain dish she likes, and I instinctively suggested going for dinner this week. She immediately accepted.
I also have a few questions regarding some of the things you all shared:
Do I brief her about the activities I have started and loop her in (talk/touch charges strategy, books you shared)? I did mention to her that I am taking this seriously and that I will be spending some time looking up good literature and materials we can use, and she said she would be interested to participate as well.
How should I act in terms of physical contact now? Should I approach her sexually when I feel the urge, or I should suppress that for a while now? Or should I talk about this with her and ask her how she would like me to act, and what not to do?
I apologize if some of these questions will be answered in the threads of the books you all shared - I just did not have time to go through all of that yet as I’ve been working a lot.
Again - thanks for all the support and help, this really makes me feel better and more optimistic!
I started working on improvements immediately - at least for the small stuff like bad jokes, going to the toilet with an open door and similar, and she praised this herself yesterday saying that she feels that I am doing something to improve and address her complaints already. This is hopefully a good sign.
It is, just don't expect immediate results. It's going to take her time to believe the changes are real and not just "tricks" to placate her, after which you'll revert back. Stick to the changes and give her time to accept and believe them.
I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc.
Yes exactly. It's a balancing act. I think the 5LL book will help in this respect, it shows how to build that up slowly over time in non-sexual ways.
I don’t want her to feel that I’m pressuring her to have sex every day now. But I do feel the urge to try and get close to her emotionally and physically, so she doesn’t have the need to look for it somewhere else.
Again, 5LL will help you here. Most men's "primary" LL is PT (physical touch). So they assume their wife needs that too, so if their wife distances then they try to double-down on touchy/feely stuff and sex. But her LL may be something completely different like WoA (words of affirmation) and PT may repulse her if her WoA needs aren't being met. It's important to appeal to her in HER love language.
I am not pressuring her in doing anything really, just going with the flow. Giving her occasional compliments, kisses and touches. She does feel a bit stiff, and sometimes not in the mood to sit close to me and touch me.
It sounds to me like you're trying too hard in the PT department. You might want to ease up on that and give her some space until you can read SSM and 5LL. Too much PT will feel like pressure to her.
She admitted that sex with is not that bad in general, and that often times she really enjoys it. But even though that is the case, she lacks the desire to start it and have it, because everything surrounding that “event” is most of the time repulsive. She says that she feels like there was a certain “quantity” of attraction she felt for me, but that all of that was “spent” throughout the years, and she is now not sure if and how this can be restored. She is afraid that it is gone for good and cannot be restored.
This is a PERFECT time to validate. She's opening up to you and letting you know her feelings, and that is GREAT! You should be intently listening and making validating statements like "Thank you for sharing this, it helps me to understand what you are going through, it sounds very difficult." The beauty of validation is she will feel like you are emotionally connecting with her, which is the thing she complains isn't happening. So that would be a huge 180.
This is the thing that frightens me the most - her constant repetition of the phrase that somehow those feelings of attraction were all “used-up” and she sees no clear way of restoring that. She said she hopes the therapist will give us some exercises that would help igniting this again…
It's how she feels, it's not how she WANTS to feel, but she does anyway. Accept it and help her through it by listening, validating, and giving her time to work through this.
We will be going to a “date” in a few days, going out for dinner - just the two of us. I did not initiate this because of anything I read, but she mentioned she misses eating a certain dish she likes, and I instinctively suggested going for dinner this week. She immediately accepted.
OK that's fine, just try not to be too pushy. And NO RELATIONSHIP TALKS, PERIOD! She doesn't want to feel pressured right now, and ANY R talk is pressure. If she initiates one then listen and validate. But your stance should be neutral on the matter. You don't bring it up. You don't have an opinion. This is about her.
How should I act in terms of physical contact now? Should I approach her sexually when I feel the urge, or I should suppress that for a while now? Or should I talk about this with her and ask her how she would like me to act, and what not to do?
Read the books! You've got to lay the groundwork for her to want to have sex with you. THAT is what you should be focusing on for now, not the sex itself.
That last paragraph from AS is all you need rn.
I would not initiate any sex till you have had at least om therapy session.
Work on yourself and everything surrounding sex.
Also did you look into No more mr nice guy??
Hi Benji,
I've also been where your wife is. I was the LD partner in an SSM basically since our second daughter (now 8) was born. I can completely empathize with what your W is telling you. I also would sometimes really get into sex once we started, but had zero desire to start, which was really confusing for me. I think it is great she's open to talking about it with you and that you're so dedicated to working on it. I'm going to echo some of the advice you've received above that I think is especially important:
5LL-- very important and I would bet $100 that your W's primary LL is NOT PT. My H and I were in a similar dynamic where his is PT and mine is acts of service, but to me it got to the place where anytime he touched me I thought he wanted sex and would physically shrink away.
I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc.
You see how you are equating meeting her emotional needs with touches and kisses? PT is very likely being perceived as pressure by her. If you don't want her to read the 5LL book right now, try different things (acts of service, words of affirmation, etc) to show her you love her and see how she responds. Tell her to put her feet up and make dinner and put the baby to bed yourself. Ask her about her day and really listen to her and validate. Give her a real, authentic compliment. Bring her a small, thoughtful gift. Observe her and see what makes her smile.
I really, really recommend Emily Nagowski's Come As You Are and maybe also Esther Perel's Mating in Captivity. If I had read Come As You Are when I was in the midst of the SSM, it would have helped me tremendously. I don't know that asking her to read this book right now is a good idea or if it will come off as pressure. I think reading the 5LL won't be perceived as pressure as much as the Nagowski book, but if she is truly interested in understanding more about female sexuality and desire, I strongly recommend it.
Reinforcing what Sandi says about listening to her and taking her seriously with the jokes. This is another thing my H would do that drove me NUTS. I think that showing her you care what she thinks by listening, validating, and then taking action to support her would go a really long ways.
Finally, I agree with AS-- no R talks, no pressure, relax a bit. I think you and your wife are on a great track to fix this.
IMHO, she needs to feel relaxed when she's with you. If the focus is on always on sex, she's going to probably feel pressured. Some W's begin to pull away from any type of touch (even nonsexual) b/c they don't want their H to take it as a signal she wants to have sex.
Life can become routing and boring, which spills over into the MR. We have to purposely add spice. Make the time we have with other fun. Surprise once in a while with a little inexpensive gift, and tell her it made you think of her when you saw it. You can google lists of ideas how a H can romance his W. The tip, however, is that it needs to be on-going. I'm not saying you have to buy flowers every day, or take her out eat every weekend. Romance begins with your attitude. It's how you interact with her that makes her feel feminine and special. Flirting with her is very important, but do it during the day without any pressure. Keep things light and fun during the day/evening, and stay away from serious talks right before bedtime.
If things seem a little tense when it's just the two of you, then plan some activities that include friends. If she appears stiff when you take her to a candle lit dinner, then take her to some other type of environment to eat. Of course, being under lockdown, it's a bit challenging, but do the best you can. What does she enjoy doing for fun with a group or a partner? For instance, does she like board games? What did the two of you do together when you first dated her? Having fun with you, goes a long way in helping her feelings. She has to see that you aren't showing her a good time just to set her mood for sex. If that's the only time she sees your fun loving, charming self surface.......it's likely to bomb.
Living in a SSM is serious, but if there is a heavy atmosphere while around each other........I think things can get worse pretty quickly. Work on the relationship, first. Think of it as making love to your W, without the act of sex.
I am hesitant to encourage you to share with her some of things you'll read. Call me crazy, but I tend to feel it kind of takes away some of the affect. Make sense? It's like when a LBH eagerly tells his WW/WAW that he is working on himself. It's not necessary to announce what he's doing. Just do it, and she'll see the results.
I hear what you mean when you say what the biggest concern is now her not getting her emotional needs met. I really want to do something about it, but I also don’t want her to feel pressured now by me being too pushy with touches, kisses etc. I don’t want her to feel that I’m pressuring her to have sex every day now. But I do feel the urge to try and get close to her emotionally and physically, so she doesn’t have the need to look for it somewhere else.
The book on the five love languages should help you. I think most men's primary LL is physical touch, b/c that's how they are wired. However, if physical touch is not your W's primary LL, don't expect her to have the same needs as you have. Go slowly with the touches, especially if there hasn't been much touching lately. Those touches should be
nonsexual. In other words, the kind of touch you would give a female relative. If you sense her immediate stiffness from a nonsexual touch........it's going to be a very slow process. If you kiss her in the morning or bedtime, then just keep it light. No pressure! Don't start tongue kissing her tonsils right before leaving for work. Hopefully, that will come later down the road. But for now, keep it sweet, and no pressure.
She admitted that sex with is not that bad in general, and that often times she really enjoys it. But even though that is the case, she lacks the desire to start it and have it, because everything surrounding that “event” is most of the time repulsive.
She may have a hang-up with intimacy (since she doesn't want much foreplay and to get it over quickly). She may need individual therapy. She may need to see a hormone balancing specialist. It could be a combination of things that is affecting her. It's a delicate subject for the H to approach, b/c a lot of W's feel the H just wants her fixed for selfish reasons.
I think some women don't know why they feel like they do.
Hi Benji,
You have been given great advise so far. Sandi2, AnotherStander and Steve85 are very wise and give stellar advice.
Most of us came hear because our S wanted out of the marriage. I am not seeing that here, though you were headed there if you didn't address this problem.
I agree. I found this site back in march of 2008 right after BombDrop. I have learned so much since then. Read these threads:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061092&page=allhttps://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870386&page=allYou are lucky. She is sharing with you how she FEELS. Embrace this. Listen to understand her. Read the validation thread until it burned into your head. AnotherStander is the Validation king.
Neither one of you know why she has lost her sexual attraction for you. And it is OK that neither of you know why. The good news is that you can change your behavior and the way you interact with her to build up sexual tension. Learn how to be attractive and seductive. Know the difference between these.
Start by reading this:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224Things that work are counter-intuitive. You need to challenge everything you currently believe. Do not be locked into one way of thinking or behaving. This is not working for you right now.
I am in charge of the sex and romance department in my relationship. If the sex is decreasing, it means I am not being seductive or romantic with my lady. I am becoming less attractive. It is my behavior that I need to reflect on and change. I actually pull back my sexual advances and wait for her to get turned on by my behavior. These are learned skills that work. They go against my natural instinct. I pull back when I want to pursue.
Right now, put all of your sexual needs on the back burner. Repeat this to yourself "Nothing turns a woman off more than a needy man."
Do not be boring. She needs excitement in her life. Be that.
I wish you well and look forward to helping you through this chapter of your life.
Thanks for your support!
Since most of the people here suggested reading 5LL, I decided to wrap that one up first - I’m almost at the halfway point, and already have some ideas, but don’t want to jump to any conclusions before reading it all through. And immediately after, I’ll go back to reading SSM.
@AnotherStander Thanks for bringing me down to earth. And yes, you are absolutely right - even I feel like I might be trying too hard in the PT department. Definitely easing up on that moving forward.
Last night I read a lot about Validation and really want to start applying that whenever I get a chance. But today we haven’t talked much anyway, it’s been a strange day…
@Mumin Hadn’t had a chance to look into “No more mr Nice Guy” much yet, just read a review and a short summary. From what I read there - it definitely sounds like I am “the Nice Guy”, so this is gonna be the next book I read right after I finish 5LL and SSM. Thanks for the recommendation.
@may22 Sorry to hear you were going through the same thing as my W. I can only imagine how hard that was, looking at her now. She claims everything is ok, but I can see that she is a bit tense most of the time, and that our conversations are a bit too “formal” and not our regular conversations from before the “revelation”... I guess that is normal, considering that it’s just been a week...
Do you have any suggestions on what you would have appreciated from your H when you were going through this? What things had the best influence? And what was worst? How did things unfold for you? (I apologize if I'm asking too much)
@sandi2 I would like her to feel relaxed when she’s with me as you said, but it is not all up to me as you know even better unfortunately.
I am really doing my best to be positive, all the reading has a good influence on me and raises my optimism, but when I stand in front of her to talk, I can sense that she is tense… But I’m still completely avoiding any R topics. Just focusing on daily stuff, making jokes (not the ones that she dislikes) and taking care of our D. I’ve been having some really good time with our D for the past few days, doing most of the work around her.
I’ll try to take them out over the weekend somewhere nice where we can all enjoy some sun and nature - anything else with friends is unfortunately out of question, as my W is really avoiding any meetings and public places due to Covid, she is very strict on that one.
I accidentally saw her reading some article about sex issues women have in marriages, so she seems to be doing some research on her own as well. I don’t want her to feel now it’s all about sex, at least not because of me. But I’m not gonna push for any further discussion on this topic first.
@R2C I hear what you are saying, thank you, I’ve been reading through your threads and everything you went through, and I can only admire how strong and self aware you are now.
And I’m definitely putting my sexual needs on the back burner for the time being - I don’t really feel like sex would be a good idea at this point anyway.
So a few thoughts I have so far: The more I read about all of this - the less I have sex on my mind and am actually thinking about evrything else. How we’ve neglected romance and attraction in the past few years, without ever thinking about it and realizing (at least on my side). And we neglected it both. Just reading through 5LL made me feel like I am not getting my Emotional Bank Account filled either most of the time. We have sooo much room for improvement on both sides. I just hope she doesn’t lose faith and stays involved.
I am also hesitant about sharing anything I read with her - I might share 5LL once I’m done with it, as it seems like a good literature for anyone who wants to improve their marriage. I would avoid giving her any inputs why she should read it so she doesn’t get the impression that I’m telling her she is doing something wrong (even though I do feel like none of us is using the appropriate love language in the past few years like I mentioned before). She is a smart person, I think she will like this and actually think about her approach towards me. Or you guys think this is not a good idea?
We went on our planned “date” - it was pretty fine, we were laughing, looking at each other a lot and sharing a few compliments. It was the closest to our “normal” communication and behavior from before the revelation, since all of that happened. At one point she did raise the R topic carefully, saying something like “why do we often focus on so many irrelevant problems, while neglecting the really important relations in the meantime, until it gets too late to do anything”... It struck me a bit, but I just concluded saying “I agree, these are tough times and we often lose focus… But we should use moments of revelation to become better versions of ourselves, and learn from our mistakes to improve it all, since it is not too late”. She agreed, and we did not get back to that topic any more.
And finally - what should I do if she initiates sex again before our therapy happens? I know I am not going to be initiating anything. And I really don’t want her to do this forcefully because she feels the “responsibility” to please me. At this point I really don’t want her to suffer, even if that means not sex for a few months until we get some steady advice and guidance from the Therapist. But I also don’t want to reject her and make her feel even worse.
The more I read about all of this - the less I have sex on my mind and am actually thinking about evrything else. How we’ve neglected romance and attraction in the past few years, without ever thinking about it and realizing (at least on my side). And we neglected it both. Just reading through 5LL made me feel like I am not getting my Emotional Bank Account filled either most of the time. We have sooo much room for improvement on both sides. I just hope she doesn’t lose faith and stays involved.
Not sure if you've gotten to this part in the book yet, but he goes over how you need to focus on making deposits in her account and not worry about getting yours filled for now. Marriages get in trouble when both parties feel they have empty accounts and they're both sitting back waiting for the other to come fill their account. This is really the thrust of DBing as well- YOU need to do the work, not wait for her to. "It Takes One to Tango" as Michele says. And you are doing the work so that's great. Keep it up. Just don't have any expectations that she will come around immediately, it takes time. 5LL also makes the point that if you start making deposits in her emotional account then at some point she'll WANT to make deposits in yours. Not because she feels like she has to, but because she actually wants to. And that's when things will turn around for real.
I am also hesitant about sharing anything I read with her - I might share 5LL once I’m done with it, as it seems like a good literature for anyone who wants to improve their marriage.
I would not share it with her. If you do, and then if you try and implement some of the things you read, she might see it as you trying to use "tricks" to get her back. Just keep it to yourself, at least for a while.
We went on our planned “date” - it was pretty fine, we were laughing, looking at each other a lot and sharing a few compliments. It was the closest to our “normal” communication and behavior from before the revelation, since all of that happened. At one point she did raise the R topic carefully, saying something like “why do we often focus on so many irrelevant problems, while neglecting the really important relations in the meantime, until it gets too late to do anything”... It struck me a bit, but I just concluded saying “I agree, these are tough times and we often lose focus… But we should use moments of revelation to become better versions of ourselves, and learn from our mistakes to improve it all, since it is not too late”. She agreed, and we did not get back to that topic any more.
OK well first of all it sounds like you kept the date light and problem-free which is perfect. But don't forget to listen and validate! When you say "I agree, these are tough times.... etc." it sounds kind of like you're trying to put your own spin on what she said, right? Instead, try asking her how it makes her feel. Sad? Anxious? Worried? Whatever she says she feels, listen intently, and make validating statements about her feelings. THIS is what will make her feel like you're really listening to her and trying to understand where she is coming from.
And finally - what should I do if she initiates sex again before our therapy happens?
Then have sex. If she initiates then go for it.
And I really don’t want her to do this forcefully because she feels the “responsibility” to please me.
Let her worry about that. If she initiates then she either wants to have sex, or she wants to fill your needs, or both. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with either. Don't surround it with unneeded drama! Just partake and enjoy it!
I am also hesitant about sharing anything I read with her ...Or you guys think this is not a good idea?
Keep all your personal growth sources confidential for now. This is about your growth. Change you.
what should I do if she initiates sex again before our therapy happens?
Enjoy it. I would start doing some research now in this area as well. After the encounter, you want her to be pleasantly surprised by your new improved behavior. Personally I have more fun getting my lady "in the mode" than reaching the "finish line".
Not sure if you've gotten to this part in the book yet, but he goes over how you need to focus on making deposits in her account and not worry about getting yours filled for now. Marriages get in trouble when both parties feel they have empty accounts and they're both sitting back waiting for the other to come fill their account. This is really the thrust of DBing as well- YOU need to do the work, not wait for her to. "It Takes One to Tango" as Michele says. And you are doing the work so that's great. Keep it up. Just don't have any expectations that she will come around immediately, it takes time. 5LL also makes the point that if you start making deposits in her emotional account then at some point she'll WANT to make deposits in yours. Not because she feels like she has to, but because she actually wants to. And that's when things will turn around for real.
I haven't gotten to that part yet, but it definitely makes sense, thanks for pointing it out. I definitely plan to take the lead on this and do all the work needed - hopefully it will motivate her to partake at some point as you suggested, but when she really wants to. At the moment her behavior towards me is pretty variable... Sometimes she behaves "normally" - making jokes, talking with me etc. Sometimes she seems to be avoiding me. Overall, I can feel that she is a bit distant. Which is normal at this point I guess...
I would not share it with her. If you do, and then if you try and implement some of the things you read, she might see it as you trying to use "tricks" to get her back. Just keep it to yourself, at least for a while.
Keep all your personal growth sources confidential for now. This is about your growth. Change you.
Roger that! Makes perfect sense, I appreciate your guidance here.
OK well first of all it sounds like you kept the date light and problem-free which is perfect. But don't forget to listen and validate! When you say "I agree, these are tough times.... etc." it sounds kind of like you're trying to put your own spin on what she said, right? Instead, try asking her how it makes her feel. Sad? Anxious? Worried? Whatever she says she feels, listen intently, and make validating statements about her feelings. THIS is what will make her feel like you're really listening to her and trying to understand where she is coming from.
You are right... I guess it will take me some time to master the validation skill. But I do get the point, just need to practice.
Let her worry about that. If she initiates then she either wants to have sex, or she wants to fill your needs, or both. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with either. Don't surround it with unneeded drama! Just partake and enjoy it!
You are absolutely right. She is a grown up, mature person as well - and if she decides to do that, she has some reason for it. So I won't be backing up. I won't be initiating anything though.
Enjoy it. I would start doing some research now in this area as well. After the encounter, you want her to be pleasantly surprised by your new improved behavior. Personally I have more fun getting my lady "in the mode" than reaching the "finish line".
That sounds great.
Do you have any literature or material you could recommend for me to research? Something that helped you most? Thanks!
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094The one labeled Counter-intuitive ways to attract as well as all the ones labeled MEN.
I purchase the top two on the list and frequently pass them out to people. Every time I read the second one, I get something new from it. I bet I have read it 20+ times.
I was visiting the bookstore every week. I would browse the self help section and a book or two would stand out as interesting. Youtube is a great resource as well.
I questions everything I believed. Some of my beliefs became stronger, some were reversed.
I purchase the top two on the list and frequently pass them out to people. Every time I read the second one, I get something new from it. I bet I have read it 20+ times.
Awesome, thanks, starting with that one then!
A few updates from my side…
I finished 5LL - boy, what an awesome resource! I figured out a few very valuable things:
1. My primary LL seems to definitely be PT. At first I thought it was QT, but after reading on how to differentiate, I realized that even though I highly value our QT together, the lack of it does not make me feel miserable as much as having no PT. And by PT I don’t refer to sex primarily - I just realized that physical contact in general (hugs, touches, kisses, holding hands etc) really fills up my LT… Which is probably one of the reasons why I figured out something was wrong just now and not before - because PT reduced dramatically recently.
2. However, I do still have trouble in figuring out my W’s primary LL… (which is probably one of the reasons how we got here). I definitely ruled out PT and RG - I was always the one who was more into PT and we even have internal jokes on this… She likes to give gifts to others, but she’s never been a great receiver throughout our R, and I still get stuff for her often. I would rule out AoS as well, because I usually do a lot of stuff - I maintain our cars, vacuum, clean the house, cook etc. She does mind when I get “lazy” occasionally, but I haven’t noticed a big difference between my “lazy” and “hard working” periods when it comes to her behavior. So this leaves me with WoA and QT… I’ve usually been praising her a lot, and even in the past few months, so I would be surprised if that is the one. QT is the one that we’ve been lacking most in the past couple of years. And this weekend we spent a lot of time together, and I felt her “softening up” after all that time. We even had sex (at her initiative again), which was actually pretty good this time for both, or that is what it seemed to be. It was very hard for me not to think afterwards if it was a torture for her and she was only acting, but I kept my mouth shut and did not want to initiate any talks around that. So my plan is to work on QT, and spend a lot more of it with her in the upcoming period to verify if I got it right.
3. But I do have a question here - Dr. Chapman in most of his examples asks the couples to communicate to each other and “reveal” their primary LL. He asks them to “describe to each other what the ideal spouse would need to do to make them feel loved and have their emotional tank full”. Is this something I should consider asking my W, or you think it would drastically minimize the effect of anything I do to improve?
Other topic that started pressuring me very hard these days is the effect that
“No More Mr. Nice Guy” has on me. I started reading the book, and - that is definitely me, a “Nice Guy”. The more progress I make, the more miserable I feel. It really sums up what I am, have been, and made me realize my personality better. Which also made me understand why she probably started feeling the way she feels towards me… Now I see that I’ve been struggling with my “Nice Guy” syndrome in the past (wasn’t aware of it back then), and that it probably took me to IC in the first place. And it could potentially be the core trigger that made her feel less and less sexually attracted to me. But going through all of this at this point, makes it emotionally very hard for me to even read the book, not to speak of actually starting the process of becoming the “SoB” instead of a “Nice Guy”. I feel like I need to take one step at a time, and focus on getting her emotional tank to a decent level, start the therapy together, and then work on breaking the “Nice Guy” apart… I don’t feel like I have the strength for that until we make some progress in improving how she feels for me. And it sounds to me that for that process I would need a “safe person” to help me, which is pretty hard now with Covid and us avoiding meeting other people as much as possible. Or you thinking this is actually the first thing I would need to tackle considering it might be the reason for getting me where I am?
And finally, there is one more thing I would appreciate to get your thoughts on. Even before we had THE talk and I realized what is happening - for the past few months I noticed that she was struggling with starting her day. She would stay in bed for longer than usual, she would have days when she is really distraught, and that is still happening. It looks to me like slight signs of depression. Normally, I would ask her what’s going on and see if I can somehow help (“Nice Guy” again…), but now I am not sure if I should do that… I don’t want to make her feel even more miserable, especially since our “situation” might be the sole reason for that. But the behavior did start significantly before we had our talk - so either I picked up the right timing to start asking questions, or she has some other issues that I am not aware of… I do have the urge to ask questions, but I also feel like that might be the completely wrong thing to do at this stage…
And that’s it, my days are pretty much roller-coasters and mood-swings, but trying to keep this to myself and not let it show on the outside. She really praised me for my behavior for the past week and the weekend, and said she had a very good time with me and our D.
Oh yes - I got back to reading SSM in parallel with Nice Guy, plan to switch my focus to that one now.
A couple of things. First, most people tend to outwardly show their LL to others. For instance, if your LL is PT, then you will tend to show love to others through PT! Hugs, shoulder rubs, etc. So if she is someone that is a gift-giver likely that is one of her LL. Now, that doesn't mean running out and showering her with gifts. Right now you are in awareness mode. Since your sitch is so different than the others here, where a spouse has already said they want a D. You caught it and came here before that point! That's a good thing!
Now, since your situation is so different, QT is not a bad approach. You have to walk a fine line though here. Suddenly smothering her with QT efforts and requests may make her recoil. So just like with the touch charges I suggested, be subtle here. QT could be sitting on the couch having a conversation. It could be taking her on a very formal date to a very nice restaurant where you both get dressed up. It could be lots of things between those extremes! Things like he saying, I am running up to the store to pick up some things, do you need anything? "You know what, why don't I go with you so I can shop for what I need too?" Then you get some QT in the car on the way there and back! Subtle, but still there.
As far as discussing your LL with her, I would wait on that. Once you get into MC, most MC will start with LLs. And have you both take the assessment and then share that with each other. So just do what works for now (clearly QT seemed to), and keep that up! Just try to avoid being overtly needy and clingy. Again, it is a fine line!
As far as NGS. You are the first I've heard come back and say that you are actually are having emotional issues thinking about changing it. You mention you think this led you to IC in the past, I think this would be a good next step now. But I do encourage you to finish reading the book. If you are having the attitude of the opposite of NGS being a "SoB" then you are not really understanding the issue. NGS is actually being a "SoB" deep down. Since everything you do has a hidden agenda, expects something in return, and really there is nothing "nice" about NGS! Finish the book and you will see, I think a lot of your emotional reaction you are having will be alleviated when you really start to grasp the concept. NGS is an awful way to live for yourself, but also the others around you!
As far as her "depression", I would let that lie for now. I quoted depression because neither of us is certified to diagnose her. Maybe she has sleep apnea so she wakes up in the morning as tired, if not more, than when she went to bed. And the lack of good sleep could be causing her to be distraught. Or it could hormonal (I don't recall your ages, you might want to do a signature like many of us have, it is very helpful when responding). Bottom line, she has to want to get help for it, and likely right now you mentioning it will just be another source of irritation, that you are trying to "fix" her. There may come a time when you need to have a conversation with her about it, but personally I think you let it lie for now.
"And that’s it, my days are pretty much roller-coasters and mood-swings, but trying to keep this to myself and not let it show on the outside. She really praised me for my behavior for the past week and the weekend, and said she had a very good time with me and our D."
Great. keep up the good work! If you are already in IC, great! Start talking to your IC about NGS. If you aren't in IC, get back in it! Focus on you, overcoming your NGS, but continue to subtly try to fill her LT and reestablish a connection. Look, just your efforts so far resulted in her initiating sex! That shows that being attentive (but not overbearing) can pay dividends.
Hi all, posting again after a while - did not have any big things to share in the last month or so, and was mainly reading the forums and the recommended books. I apologize for a bit lengthier message.
First of all, thanks for the comments Steve85 - exactly as you said, subtle doses of QT have brought us some very good days. I read through the whole book of NMMNG, and got to a point where I want to read it again, start making notes and taking action. I also realized throughout the book that I have previously tackled some of the traits of the NGS by myself not even knowing about it. But there is still a lot of work to be done. I am taking baby steps now. One of the things I realized was making me miserable was masturbation as a compensation for sex. So I now stopped watching porn and took a break from self-pleasure for some time. Already feel a lot better. And the sex I had with my W in the meantime also felt better. When I feel ready, I want to try out the “healthy” masturbation that Dr.Glover writes about in the book.
I’ve used the time to focus on DB’n, and on that front I really feel a lot better. I’ve shaped up, working out regularly, reached a great physical form and plan to continue strong. When I’m working out I feel stronger and wiser, and have a feeling that whatever happens will be acceptable and that I’ll be able to cope with it. I know that this is not a completely realistic scenario, but since it has a positive effect on me, I plan to keep this routine and make 2021 the year of my best health and shape. I also started excelling at work, wrapped up a few big projects and landed a nice bonus for the end of the year.
I’ve read 5LL, No more Mr. Nice Guy, SSM, She Comes First, Love and Respect: The Love She Most Desires, Love Must Be Tough, pulled out the strategies that sounded like they can be applicable to my sitch, and am continuously working on self-improvement. I’ve completely eliminated the small things my W complained about, and am working on 180’n the situations that sounded upsetting for her. And it seemed like we are making progress on one hand, as we started spending more time together, she initiated sex several times and it wasn’t bad, but we completely stopped any R talk, as that was the agreement, before we start with the therapy. So in general - things mostly looked ‘normal’, however they looked like that for years before our ‘talk’ and she was still suffering without me knowing. So, I’m not raising my hopes up, but I feel we have a lot more good days and moments than we did initially in the first few weeks after she opened up to me. But it is pretty clear that every R talk will reignite the “bad” mood and will bring a few days of depressive atmosphere to our home.
And the therapy finally started. We had just one session so far - the therapist seems good, I had the positive “vibe” about it throughout the session, even in the tough moments. And there were a few, which I’ll mention below. It was just a first get-to-know-each-other session, she did her “screening” and suggested that we’ll probably need to meet a few more times until we actually start with the practical work and make a plan. Which sounded fair and reasonable to me. She suggested that we don’t talk too much about things that we find hard to talk about at the moment while we are at home (our R, and the attraction issue), until we get to a bit more stable emotional situation. Here are a few notes from the session that I mentioned before, that were a bit tough, and that I would appreciate some thoughts on from you guys:
First of all - I now realized that I had a misunderstanding of the duration of this issue. It turns out that this feeling of less and less attraction for my W started after the first 2-3 years of our R, meaning that it has lasted for more than 6-7 years now. As she says - in the beginning it was nothing too alarming, and it had ups and downs, but in the past few years it started getting harder and harder for her. It climaxed recently, and that is probably why I noticed. For me personally, it is not a great sign - because that means she’s been suffering for a lot longer than I thought, and also some of our core R values might not be completely true any more. On the other hand - despite all those feelings, she still decided to pursue R with me, and even marry me and have a child with me. And there was never really any reluctance for any of these two events from her - she even pushed for marriage harder than I did. As she says - she loved me all the time and still does, and still thinks I am the right H for her. Do you think that the duration of the issue makes the sitch significantly harder to overcome? I am also doing my best not to question all of the great (or maybe it was great just for me?) moments that we went through - but sometimes I really feel betrayed, and manipulated. I know this is wrong, but at some moments of weakness, I just can’t help it. What do you suggest as a coping mechanism for this? And should I bring this up in the therapy and ask for assistance as well? Or I should completely avoid that in the mutual sessions and keep this just for IC?
Second - she mentioned something that was not really surprising, especially now considering the length of the “issue”, but I can tell you that it did strike me in the heart. She said that before that moment (which she never clarified when exactly it was, or was it in any way tied to a specific event), she was so madly in love with me that she never even looked at anyone else. And when those issues started for her - she then occasionally caught herself looking at other men and thinking that maybe “the grass could be greener on the other side”. But that then, whenever she would compare any of the men she would find interesting with me - they would fall short and that she never met a man she would even remotely consider being as good for her as I was. I kept my calm, stated that I’m not surprised, and that I would suspect that there was someone else, which she immediately denied, saying that I did not get it right. There was nobody else, but that just the idea of thinking about other men made her feel bad and realize not everything is great between us. And honestly - I would leave it at that until the next session or so, but after the session, she lured me to the discussion by insisting that my head is now probably full of new information and that I’ll be creating crazy scenarios. Unfortunately I fell for it, succumbed and asked here if there is another person in the mix, or anyone that I should be aware of, considering the effort and dedication this will require. I believe that I should at least know what I am standing against. And not just me - the therapist as well. She wasn’t able to give me a simple yes/no answer… We were going back and forth about it, she was refusing to talk about it and just repeated “there was nothing concrete and there is no concrete person, there are some things that might not even be relevant, but I cannot talk about that with you now”. She suggested that she might need to talk with the therapist in an individual session. Somewhere in the discussion she raised the topic of monogamy, and whether that is completely normal - and why I would for example be against a partner getting sexually satisfied on the side to keep the peace at home. I almost lost it at that point, but decided to back up and set my boundary - I told her that this is not something I would consider, because I don’t believe in such a marriage, and that is nothing I signed up for. She did not say she wanted that or anything like it, and also decided not to further discuss as she started losing it a bit, but it left one more mark on me. The scenario I believe is likely - She doesn’t have any active affair at this time, I am almost sure about that as we’ve been isolated for months, all of our devices are accessible to both of us and she literally has no way of hiding anything that significant. The worst thing is - it was highly unlikely for anything serious to happen in the past 4-5 years as our daily routines were so stacked up, that there would be literally no space for the OM to fit in. For the period before that - I really cannot say now. She was always very judgemental about infidelity, and always treated that as one of the biggest sins you can do in your life. After all these discussions and new information, it seems to me that something happened with someone at some point. No idea how far that went, who that was and when it happened, but I don’t think it was recent. But it obviously left a significant scar, as she cannot speak about it but feels it could be relevant. On the other hand - maybe I’m completely wrong, and there is still someone in some way. What I would appreciate your thought on is - should I try to push and get more information on this in the therapy sessions where she might feel a bit more confident to share? I find it a bit challenging to completely dedicate my heart and soul to the therapy if I cannot trust my W, and when I can clearly see she is hiding something. I have already experienced a lot of pain from her side in the past months, I think now is the time to endure even more if needed - better than us waiting to make some progress and then having more things pop out as a surprise. Is it too much to ask to have all cards on the table now when we both agreed we want to fight to save our marriage?
And to add one more thing I noticed - she flinches about even the mention of the Big D word. I mentioned it once or twice and she immediately reacted, saying that is not an option, and that keeping our marriage needs to be the number one priority for us now. And I agree - but I am a bit confused about the contradictions in her approach. She wants to prioritize our marriage, while at the same time keeping secrets openly.
When things eased up a bit at home, we had a pretty useful discussion on what we both expect from the therapy and somewhat talked about what sex means for both of us. We realized that there is so much more to it than what we were doing, that we know so much about each other in every other aspect of life but so little about our sexual preferences, that it almost felt funny how we managed to not notice that during all these years. We agreed not to push anything in that field further until we get to a point where we are both ready to experiment, but also agreed that we both believe our sex can be not just as good as it used to be - it can also be better.
So that is pretty much it for now - I am still riding an emotional roller-coaster. I have awesome days, I have bad days. I try to focus on DB’n, work, exercise and time with the family. I still have high hopes that this can improve, but I also feel that every day I am a bit more ready for the worst case scenario as well.
Benji, WB. Sounds like things are going fairly well. As I said before, your sitch is a bit different than most here since your W isn't wanting a D, and is willing to work on things, even if showing a bit of a wayward side.
As far as how you are feeling, best to explore that in IC first before bringing it up in MC. MC should be about reconnecting, and working on the MR. The insecurities you feel inside are better to be dealt with in your IC because likely that is what they are, and there is nothing actionable your W can do to help.
Yes, most LBSs are shocked to find out how long their WAS has been struggling with the issues. Most think their sitches start on BD, when in fact they actually started years before. This is why there are no quick fixes. You cannot use words to fix what you acted your way into. You cannot fix overnight what took years to get into. What I will also tell you is that an OM is not your issue, it is hers. A lot of LBSs want full disclosure as part of their recovery. I see no value in full disclosure. None. It doesn't sound like she has had a lot of opportunity to cheat, however a friend that was cheating on her husband once told me that where there is a will there is a way. That a spouse that wants to cheat will move mountains to make it possible. Even taking off of work to be with their AP. But the thing is that you cannot obsess about it. The truth has a way of coming out. I would focus on you and on working on the MR, and forget about mights and maybes at this point.
As far as her being opposed to affairs, my W was like that too. I can remember our early years of marriage her begging me to never cheat on her. Of course I am morally opposed to it and she knew that, but then her attitude changed during her WW. "I can understand why you would cheat if you ever did." she once said to me. HuH? This is what sandi likes to say "this is not the girl you married!" It is hard truth for LBSs to understand. Especially LBHs! We have this image of our Ws never changing. The truth is that we all do.
So for now focus on the positives. Your W may be struggling a bit with waywardness (ie the discussion about wanting a spouse to be sexually fulfilled even if that means with someone else!). But she isn't wanting a D, she is willing to work on the MR, and that is all something a lot of other LBSs on this forum would die to have!
Keep up the good work, work through your insecurities in IC, keep working on the MR, and do what works!
Thanks for the honest feedback Steve, I appreciate it.
You are right about moving my personal insecurities out of the MC. It is just that my IC is now “on a break” due to Covid, so I was thinking of using the opportunity. But it probably does not make sense to waste our valuable time in MC on this.
When it comes to your statement that OM is not my issue and that it is hers - I do agree. And if this is something that she doesn’t want to share with me, that’s fine, I can live with that as long as this does not become an ongoing thing while we’re in MC, which is really highly unlikely to happen anyway. But do you think I should not even raise this as a topic in our MC, to at least let the therapist be aware of a potential third-person who could be undermining our work? Or some skeletons in the closet that could be leading my W to a constant doubt? When my W told me that she does not want to talk about that with me, she did express the feeling of the importance, and that she might want to share it with our therapist at least, in an individual session. So I was just thinking of supporting and raising that in the MC. Does that sound reasonable?
And do you think that the part regarding the idea of “sexual fulfillment with someone else” also comes under my own insecurities - or you think it is ok for me to bring this up in our MC and just make both my W and therapist aware that I would not want to consider this as a “solution” at any point and set my boundary there? If that is something my W is hoping for, I really want to be clear what my stance is.
Thanks for the honest feedback Steve, I appreciate it.
You are right about moving my personal insecurities out of the MC. It is just that my IC is now “on a break” due to Covid, so I was thinking of using the opportunity. But it probably does not make sense to waste our valuable time in MC on this.
When it comes to your statement that OM is not my issue and that it is hers - I do agree. And if this is something that she doesn’t want to share with me, that’s fine, I can live with that as long as this does not become an ongoing thing while we’re in MC, which is really highly unlikely to happen anyway. But do you think I should not even raise this as a topic in our MC, to at least let the therapist be aware of a potential third-person who could be undermining our work? Or some skeletons in the closet that could be leading my W to a constant doubt? When my W told me that she does not want to talk about that with me, she did express the feeling of the importance, and that she might want to share it with our therapist at least, in an individual session. So I was just thinking of supporting and raising that in the MC. Does that sound reasonable?
And do you think that the part regarding the idea of “sexual fulfillment with someone else” also comes under my own insecurities - or you think it is ok for me to bring this up in our MC and just make both my W and therapist aware that I would not want to consider this as a “solution” at any point and set my boundary there? If that is something my W is hoping for, I really want to be clear what my stance is.
First Benji, I am going to ask you to step away from your sitch a bit. Your mind seems to be racing with what she has said, and trying to decide how to handle MC. The worst thing you can do is dwell on your situation 24/7, obsess about it, and not make sure you are doing healthy activities: GAL, 180s for yourself and being the best you can be, and detachment (self-differentiation). One of my mantras on this board is that a healthy marriage is composed of two healthy self-differentiated individuals. Anything else is a BD waiting to happen.
I would push to get IC restarted, ASAP, even if remotely.
As far as whether to bring a potential OM up in MC, or to bring up her comment on sexual fulfillment in MC, my advice is to let your MC be your guide. You shouldn't be thinking about what to bring up or not bring up between sessions (see obsessing comment above). Concentrate on any homework the MC has given you. But let each session organically develop. The MC will likely have their goal for each session. If the topic naturally comes up then yes mentioning that your W's comment inferring an open marriage bothered you. IN fact, don't word it the way I did, say "When she said that I felt like it referred to an open marriage." But again, let the session just happen, don't go in with a prepared "I am going to mention".
Your insecurities, while justified, will certainly hold you back. Women like a strong, confident, thick-skinned man. I have yet to find a woman that feels like she has to be on eggshells around her H as to not "hurt his feelings". So convey confidence. Convey an air of "I am better than any OM that you could find!" Know your own worth. Don't look for your worth in how other people view you.
Today, get out and do something that gets your mind off of all of this! Sitting and stewing is your worst enemy.
All fair points Steve, I appreciate the straightforward approach and communication.
You are completely right - I should not stray away from my self-improvement path now when I started making progress. This first MC session was obviously the trigger for me to start obsessing again, even though I wasn't doing it at all for the past few weeks.
I'll try to get back to IC, but also to really focus on DB'n... And not really do any MC planning any more. We are paying the therapist a lot of money, I should probably let them do their work.
This Covid situation just makes all of this a lot harder, since we are both bound to being at home most of the time, and not being able to meet other people like friends and family freely. I am usually a very active person and it was never hard for me to find activities that will make me feel better, but now when a lot of that is restricted, it is taking it's toll on me.
Going out for a run now, that will help. Thanks for all the support!
Read
Go to the woods and trek
Work on house / DIY
Find a project you have been putting off
Go “cold swimming”. Mention here recently. Tried 6 degrees Celsius for one minute last week.
Skiing / skating if snow
A friend of mine went golfing since some of the courses are still open this year
I am 100% sure you can find something every day!
Thanks guys!
Your posts helped me in lowering my internal tension, and getting back to strong DB’n in the past few days. Reading a lot again, running and working out. Already feeling a lot better.
And I decided to go to the next MC session without any preparation. For the first session, I had the agenda ready in my head, but now when we provided the therapist with the breakdown of the situation, I want to rely on their expertise and guidance moving forward.
I’ve come to peace with the fact that I might not learn anything about any OM now or in the past, and that if this needs to come to the surface at any point - it will. I assume this will probably haunt me again occasionally, but for the time being I stopped obsessing about it. Started looking for a new IC, as my previous one is not available. I will try to make the best use of MC and follow their guidance on salvaging and improving our MR, while DB’n on my own in parallel.
There is one issue though that I haven’t found much info on the boards yet (I know it probably exists somewhere) so any experience or material is appreciated - how to cope with libido boosts in these periods? Surprisingly or not, but when I focus on DB, I start seeing results fast - I feel better about myself, feel stronger and more confident. And my desire for sex becomes very strong in some moments. Pair that with PT being my primary LL, and it becomes very tough for me to be around my W and not be able to initiate anything. At some moments, this is literally driving me crazy… Especially since she is having mood swings, and sometimes my “horny” periods overlap with periods when she is down, which creates some weird vibe at home (or at least that is how it feels to me). I know that 5LL suggests that I should ignore my emotional bank for the time being, and get to a point where she will start communicating in my LL on her own initiative, but this is pretty new for me - as paradoxically I haven’t been feeling such strong sex drive so often in the past few years, and whenever I did, I wouldn’t prevent myself from making a move. And when I think about it now, it really seems stupid - but it is so hard to control...
Benji, that's a good question and a tough one. Libido is certainly a potential DBing issue. All I can tell you is that if you find other ways to stay busy it might not be quite as difficult. But obviously at this point trying to initiate sex is a bad idea. You are setting yourself up for rejection and that never feels good in the thick of your situation.
You make a good point about it not being talked about much and I think that's probably because the idea of our WAS being open to sex is so far from our minds in the thick of our situations that we don't even consider it a possibility. And for those whose WASs are in a PA it shouldn't even be a consideration. Even if the S tries to initiate.