My last thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2899465&page=11I’m feeling angry and afraid today. I have a call with my marriage coach. My wife enrolled with another coach that discusses divorcing differently to work up the courage to finally move all the way through with the divorce. It’s been since her EA which began in late 2015 since this has been a topic. The EA ended in January 2017 when his wife caught them in the backseat of our family’s car in a random parking lot “eating lunch.” At the time is what her and my fault they had to sneak around in their “friendship.”
Since that time whenever any problem comes up her solution has been divorce. We had a decent 10 month run following Retrouvaille, but she didn’t want to do the work and a couple months later I found her wanting to divorce me again. It was last September that she started this round. In March we were in mediation, but Covid our that in ice.
Things were actually improving with her saying “I love you” and giving hugs and kisses until about a month ago when she got upset I went out with my friends and started the divorce rhetoric again. This time feels as serious as any time. She’s stopped wearing her wedding rings and is generally giving me the silent treatment. I’ll admit that it has me in knots and my lack of ability to rationally detach is a fault.
It would be much easier to get angry, kick her out, and go with the divorce, but I know that’s not the answer. Anyone that sees us interact is shocked to here where things are at. My kids have no idea (9 and 12).
I’ve thought she’s in a MLC for some time. Her dad has dementia, she is 41, and has no real direction in life. Quit her job a year ago and is floating along (on my dime). Plays lot of tennis, works out, gets massages, etc. We share household responsibilities evenly. Anyhow, I’m sick by this whole thing and I come here to vent when I can’t take it anymore. Thanks for listening.
Scott, you have to drop the rope. You will not begin to heal and move forward until you do that.
I'm at work and don't know your sitch so just a short reply.
"Kicking her out" can absolutely be a strategy, that depends on you stance and practicalities.
Not sure but I believe RobX did that.
If this has been going on for 2-3 years your kids already know something is up.
IMO (from this short description) it seems like you are enabling/allowing her behavior.
You can't be the one to stop it but you should never enable it.
Scott, sorry to hear things are going poorly. It sounds like she's going through something, and unfortunately when this happens the spouse usually becomes the lightning rod for everything that the WAS perceives as wrong in their life. The best thing you can do is detach, leave her be, remove yourself from the equation. She's got to sort this out and it's going to take quite some time, and the loss of the M may very well be part of the fallout of that journey she goes on. There could still be a future R and M, but that's way down the road. For now accept that she's already gone and DB your heart out.
10/16 Moving Forwrd
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I asked her about the divorce to insure that was her direction and what she wanted again. She said it wasn’t what she wanted but she saw no other way. She said we weren’t happy and can’t live like this. She believes everyone will be better off and she says we have worked on the marriage and it hasn’t worked.
She was steadfast that i wouldn’t change her mind. And she said that i wasn’t going to trick her or fool her with mind games.
We talked about reasons the marriage failed. We discussed the trauma of Diana. She said we didn’t get through it because i couldn’t feel and get vulnerable. She said the fact i couldn’t feel, talk about, and express my feelings was a major issue. That is the first time she has ever said that. I brought up that it was confusing that she had been giving me a kiss good night and saying i love you recently, and it was almost as though she had no idea she had been doing that. She seems disconnected from reality.
She says i have changed for the better but she doesn’t trust my changes. She believes I’m tricking her. And she believe that at my core nature, the person I am, is not someone she wants to be with. She implies that she doesn’t want anything other than a divorce. Not the money or the house. She doesn’t want this to be angry or get mean. She wants us to be able to be around each other in the future. She has no idea what she is doing. It’s disappointing and I don’t know that there is anything I can do about it.
We discussed our mediator. I will call to get things restarted on Monday. It makes me feel ill, but there is nothing left I can do other than move through the process.
We did not discuss that she needs a job or that she should move out or that we need to create serious space, but that will come soon. I think this will come on fast, maybe too fast as she mentioned she hadn’t gotten to the place in her divorce videos where they discuss the process of divorce.
Scotty B,
I have to be real with you Scotty that I don't think she's the only one disconnect with reality. You have been in denial with this for a long time. Your situation is a lot like mine in that after I found out about her EA and it ended she never came back to the marriage. I think she never got over the highs of being in the EA gave her. Then it becomes the quest to obtain the high again and that can only be done by getting divorced.
I think you need to wave the white flag and get these done and the best deal you can get that is fair. Sounds like your W just wants out so it shouldn't be an issue. Be the rock for your children and just keep moving forward. You fought for your family and should be proud of it. This is very survivable Scotty and when it's over you will feel a hughe wait lifted off your shoulders.
That Will Smith quote is strong LH.
Hi Scotty, reading your situation, it sounds like she's been done for a ong time. You were doing divorce mediation, it got put on-hold by COVID, she reminded you in April, June, and October she wants D and now she's finally hired a divorce coach to help her get through the process emotionally and logisitcally. Sorry, mate. The next step is obvious--detach and build yourself up for whatever comes next. Maybe, once she's set free, a year or two from now she'll look back and realize what she walked away from.
10/16 Moving Forwrd
————
I asked her about the divorce to insure that was her direction and what she wanted again. She said it wasn’t what she wanted but she saw no other way. She said we weren’t happy and can’t live like this. She believes everyone will be better off and she says we have worked on the marriage and it hasn’t worked.
She was steadfast that i wouldn’t change her mind. And she said that i wasn’t going to trick her or fool her with mind games.
We talked about reasons the marriage failed. We discussed the trauma of Diana. She said we didn’t get through it because i couldn’t feel and get vulnerable. She said the fact i couldn’t feel, talk about, and express my feelings was a major issue. That is the first time she has ever said that. I brought up that it was confusing that she had been giving me a kiss good night and saying i love you recently, and it was almost as though she had no idea she had been doing that. She seems disconnected from reality.
She says i have changed for the better but she doesn’t trust my changes. She believes I’m tricking her. And she believe that at my core nature, the person I am, is not someone she wants to be with. She implies that she doesn’t want anything other than a divorce. Not the money or the house. She doesn’t want this to be angry or get mean. She wants us to be able to be around each other in the future. She has no idea what she is doing. It’s disappointing and I don’t know that there is anything I can do about it.
We discussed our mediator. I will call to get things restarted on Monday. It makes me feel ill, but there is nothing left I can do other than move through the process.
We did not discuss that she needs a job or that she should move out or that we need to create serious space, but that will come soon. I think this will come on fast, maybe too fast as she mentioned she hadn’t gotten to the place in her divorce videos where they discuss the process of divorce.
#1 rule of DBing, DO NOT START R TALKS. Scott, what did you hope to accomplish by this? Admit it, you felt worse after the talk than you did before.
I see a lot of "she says" and "she said". #2 rule of DBing, believe nothing they say and half of what they do.
So instead of starting an R talk (which I am sure wasn't the first) you should:
Be out GAL. Like a madman.
Continue to work on your improvements.
Detach. detach. Detach. Detachment is not a point in time thing. Google: Self-differentiation in marriage. This is a healthy way to be. A healthy, whole individual that is 1/2 of a healthy, married couple. Anything else and your marriage is a ticking timebomb headed towards a BD.
So Scott, what are you planning to do from this point forward?
I called the mediator. Learned that its all virtual and she's booked out until December. Probably takes this situation into the New Year before we are actually putting this in front of the court. I would assume May of 2021 assuming the world cooperates.
My next choice is that I can have the mediator send out the schedule, so that my wife and I both get it and we get scheduled. Or I can ignore it and slow it down. Eventually my wife will ask about it or call the woman.
Thoughts? I see this as a chance at a 180 to work with her on it and try to get it done. That is not what she would expect. She would expect me to slow play this. Everything in my body wants to slow play it.
Steve,
The no relationship talks. I am a natural avoider of conflict. Its easy for me to ignore and avoid. What is the thinking behind not bringing relationship talks up at all? Its not me crying and whimpering and begging. Its more of tackling the issue to work together and make decisions.
I don't get defensive. I've learned to manage that. I try to listen well, be curious, and learn more about the situation. The talk we had, while hard, was actually the first time we had connected in some time.
My understanding is that you avoid the relationship talks for two reasons: First, no pressure. You don't want to pursue, because that will push them away. Second, you can't be begging, and crying, and pleading with them to stay. That makes you look weak and no one wants to be with that person.
Are there other reasons as well that I might not be thinking of?
That is not a 180. Helping your wife divorce you the way she wants.
Scotty B,
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point. Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful. If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more. If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful. If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful. If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.
Eventually she will burn through that big pile of resentment. Eventually she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate. UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.
If she thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, she's still going to think of you as the guy that wears blue, because she literally can't see you right now.
WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically for you. If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.
While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up. When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you. THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.
Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now. That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.
Steve,
The no relationship talks. I am a natural avoider of conflict. Its easy for me to ignore and avoid. What is the thinking behind not bringing relationship talks up at all? Its not me crying and whimpering and begging. Its more of tackling the issue to work together and make decisions.
I don't get defensive. I've learned to manage that. I try to listen well, be curious, and learn more about the situation. The talk we had, while hard, was actually the first time we had connected in some time.
My understanding is that you avoid the relationship talks for two reasons: First, no pressure. You don't want to pursue, because that will push them away. Second, you can't be begging, and crying, and pleading with them to stay. That makes you look weak and no one wants to be with that person.
Are there other reasons as well that I might not be thinking of?
#1 reason to me is that no good comes from it. You aren't going to learn more. You can't trust a thing she says. WASs are notorious for saying what benefits them in the moment. They may say something nice, to manipulate you. Or they may lie to cover their tracks or protect your feelings. The point is that you can't rely on words, so R talks are fruitless. As Ginger says, being an avoider doesn't mean starting an R talk is a 180. Do not use 180s as an excuse to break DB principles.
Well, I decided to go ahead and call the mediator to get that set up as I said I would. I figure I need to get her to a mindset where she feels as though I'm letting go. I think LH was saying that I need to get her to a place where she can work through stuff and not be fighting me and this seems like a way to do that. I've also heard that some people as they go through the mediation process start talking more and because they are working on things together they turn them around.
I'll admit I'm not very hopeful. I think for her the idea that she isn't in love with me anymore is it. She's focused on herself and no one else. And again as LH has said, she wants that emotional high again that she felt with the EA. I think there is probably some truth to that as well.
I was reflecting today on the last year and we have literally gone no where. No change in our relationship for better or worse. Hovering between a 1-3 on a scale to ten.
The good news though, is that I got to spend every day with my kids for another year. I think about that every day. And every day we stay together is another day I get to be with my kids full time.
At this point I don't expect to save my marriage, deep down I know there really is a very limited chance, maybe 5% best case - But I do get to see those kids every day.
And I do still have feeling for her, I kind of wish I didn't.
Tonight I'm going to go to a men's group that I'm a part of to continue to work on GAL.
Well, I decided to go ahead and call the mediator to get that set up as I said I would. I figure I need to get her to a mindset where she feels as though I'm letting go.
WRONG! You need to let her go. Whether she has a mindset where she feels it or not is immaterial. Stop doing things, even the right things, to effect a change in her. You let her go because that is the right DB move to make. Forget her mindset or feelings.
I think LH was saying that I need to get her to a place where she can work through stuff and not be fighting me and this seems like a way to do that. I've also heard that some people as they go through the mediation process start talking more and because they are working on things together they turn them around.
No you give her to space to work through stuff. Whether she does or not is up to her. You are still trying to control what you cannot!!
Also, do not go through the mediation process with any expectations except that it will end in your divorce. Again, you are trying to manipulate and control the situation.
I'll admit I'm not very hopeful. I think for her the idea that she isn't in love with me anymore is it. She's focused on herself and no one else. And again as LH has said, she wants that emotional high again that she felt with the EA. I think there is probably some truth to that as well.
I disagree. Everything you type screams desperate hope! "I need to get her to mindset where she feels...." "I need to get her to a place where she can work through stuff..." That screams desperation and putting hope in doing the right thing for the wrong reason will yield fruit. SPOILER ALERT: It won't!
It isn't a "I think there is truth", what LH said is dead on. When a W is a WW, and their EA/PA ends, then are on to find their next hit. I saw that with my W. She was looking for OM#2. This is why you back off, focus on you, and leave her alone. Waywardness is not something you can guide her through, she has to come out of it on her own. And that may take years.
I was reflecting today on the last year and we have literally gone no where. No change in our relationship for better or worse. Hovering between a 1-3 on a scale to ten.
This is because you have DB poorly. And DB'd for the wrong reason. You DB to save yourself. In doing so, your marriage might get saved as well. It might not. But once you are saved you will be surprised at how unimportant saving the marriage becomes to you!
The good news though, is that I got to spend every day with my kids for another year. I think about that every day. And every day we stay together is another day I get to be with my kids full time.
Good! They should be your #1 priority (short of God but not everyone is religious). ANd you should be right behind them in your priority list. Saving your marriage should not make the top 100 at this point.
At this point I don't expect to save my marriage, deep down I know there really is a very limited chance, maybe 5% best case - But I do get to see those kids every day.
Then stop holding on for dear life! IF this is true, then your actions should follow this belief.
And I do still have feeling for her, I kind of wish I didn't.
Not a problem unless you let those guide your actions. REmember, work on detachment!
Tonight I'm going to go to a men's group that I'm a part of to continue to work on GAL.
GOOD! Second best thing you've posted in this post behind the comment about your kids!
You are said twice
“I need to get her”
You can’t get her anywhere. Concentrate more on where you need to get YOU.
Well, I decided to go ahead and call the mediator to get that set up as I said I would. I figure I need to get her to a mindset where she feels as though I'm letting go.
You don't do that by pushing D through, because she will see it as yet another trick to try and get her back. And you basically admit it is here:
I've also heard that some people as they go through the mediation process start talking more and because they are working on things together they turn them around.
No it doesn't work that way. If you push D through then she will happily let you do all the work for her. You're grasping at straws when you should be detaching, pulling back and leaving her alone. A lot of LBS's make this mistake where they beg and plead and all that trying to get the WAS back, and when it doesn't work then they resort to pushing the D through to "wake her up". Then when that doesn't work they reverse course yet again. It all just looks desperate to the WAS, it doesn't look like detachment at all.
I'll admit I'm not very hopeful. I think for her the idea that she isn't in love with me anymore is it. She's focused on herself and no one else.
This is probably the case. You have to leave her alone to take that journey,
I need to get her to a place where she can work through stuff and not be fighting me and this seems like a way to do that. I've also heard that some people as they go through the mediation process start talking more and because they are working on things together they turn them around.
Hi Scott, the best way to get out of her way, is to actually get out of her way. Don't fight D. Don't help D. Let go and she can do the work to D or not do the work to D as she sees fit. I recall other situations here where a LBS tried to "prove a 180" by helping with D, and none that worked out well for the LBS.
Ok. So just stop. That is what I’m hearing.
I assume I just leave the mediation thing alone now. She’ll probably send us dates soon. I could call and tell her not to, but I assume the take from here is just leave it be.
Do I drag my feet on scheduling? Or do i schedule it right away? My gut says schedule it right away.
Next sitch: I have some friends going to breckenridge to go skiing in January. Normally, I would never go because she would have to watch the kids a couple days and i don’t want to put her out. Do I ask to go? Do I tell her I’m going? Do I ignore it and just tell the guys I can’t make it?
Hi Scott,
Next sitch: I have some friends going to breckenridge to go skiing in January. Normally, I would never go because she would have to watch the kids a couple days and i don’t want to put her out. Do I ask to go? Do I tell her I’m going? Do I ignore it and just tell the guys I can’t make it?
You're an adult, so I wouldn't ask her permission. She's not your partner, so I wouldn't share your plans. When you setup your 50/50 custody schedule, I'd try to ensure most or all trip dates on her days. If that's not possible, I would ask via some documented method like e-mail if she'd be willing to swap weekend X for weekend Y. I sometimes offer her an extra day (either way) for the favor. She's doing you a solid. If you exhaust those options, you might ask yourself if the trip is worth bringing someone along to keep an eye on the kids. I've done that. Watching the kids on your days is not her responsibility.
PS This forum helped me get through today. Thanks gang.
Scotty B,
Yes just leave alone to her to pursue. I’m wondering if you need mediation and you can’t just work it out yourself. My ex and I hashed it out in like 15 minutes. I kept the house and insisted on 50/50 custody. Everything else is a calculation.
If you want to go then go. It would be something to look forward to after the holidays. Your concern now should be only what is good for you and the kids. You should put absolutely zero thought into what you think she would prefer.
You have to accept that fact that your marriage is over and that if she changes her mind it will likely be 2-5 years down the road. By then you won’t care because too much damage has been done. I can promise two things. This is definitely survivable and her life won’t turn out how she expects it.
One day at a time Scotty B.
LH,
That’s a good idea. I could probably craft the entire deal and get very close to fair. It wouldn’t take a lot. I know the formulas. I’d prefer that to mediation. It would be less expensive and offer us more of a day together in it. It would also be faster. It’s not what I want, but I would prefer it to mediation.
To Steve and some others points, though, don’t help her along in this. I get that perspective but this has been on going for since the first bomb drop in 11/2017. I’ve made tremendous changes Over that time, I guarantee I haven’t given her the space that LH has talked about, but she just isn’t coming around. I understand the idea of patience. The most loving thing to do might just be to show her the path.
Steve, I read your piece on 1 Corinthians; of course that was a reading at our wedding. She’s not happy. Maybe the most loving thing to do is let her go. I’ve fought a good fight. I love her still. And maybe it’s time to let her go and find her happiness.
Is that crazy?
Not crazy at all. True love is wanting someone to be happy no matter what their choices are right now.
You fought hard and you fought long. Time to let her go.
Follow Will Smiths advice below.
LH,
That’s a good idea. I could probably craft the entire deal and get very close to fair. It wouldn’t take a lot. I know the formulas. I’d prefer that to mediation. It would be less expensive and offer us more of a day together in it. It would also be faster. It’s not what I want, but I would prefer it to mediation.
To Steve and some others points, though, don’t help her along in this. I get that perspective but this has been on going for since the first bomb drop in 11/2017. I’ve made tremendous changes Over that time, I guarantee I haven’t given her the space that LH has talked about, but she just isn’t coming around. I understand the idea of patience. The most loving thing to do might just be to show her the path.
Steve, I read your piece on 1 Corinthians; of course that was a reading at our wedding. She’s not happy. Maybe the most loving thing to do is let her go. I’ve fought a good fight. I love her still. And maybe it’s time to let her go and find her happiness.
Is that crazy?
Not crazy at all. This is going on three years. No one could accuse you of not trying. I always say to have an end plan. DB, but pick a date when you'll pull the plug and file yourself. Scott, it is time to move on.
I mean if she can’t choose divorce, then how can she choose love? If she is forced to choose marriage or love, then it’s neither of them. It’s suddenly not a choice, it’s a trap. No one wants to be trapped. Even God let’s us choose. For now she is choosing divorce and I think I need to love her and let her.
Of course I’ll run this by my coach. And it doesn’t mean I give up. It’s just what it is.
Ok Scotty I’m confused. You’re going to run it by your divorce coach if you should let her divorce you?
What does not giving up mean to you?
What would giving up look like to you?
I’ve been working with my coach for a long time. I know I’m emotional and may not be thinking clearly. My coach has been my rock through this. I want to double check my thinking with him.
Not giving up means, I’m still here if she wants the marriage. I’m not leaving, I’m allowing her to leave. A marriage takes two. If she wants the end, then it’s the end. I’m letting her walk away. Does that make sense?
Sort of. Still not sure what you’re running by your coach. Not really sure what a divorce coach is.
What concerns me Scotty is you use terms “allowing her to leave” and “letting her walk away”. You do realize you have no say in the matter? Do you see why she may feel trapped?
She does feel trapped. She has wanted to leave for a long time but she can’t do it. She’s not that strong. 21 years ago when we were very young I started dating her when she had a boyfriend. She could not break up with him. He would threaten suicide, go on hunger strikes; he caught us in bed together and still wouldn’t leave and she wouldn’t end it. It finally ended because him and I had a talk.
She is not very strong. She can’t do it. She can blame me and throw all kinds of shade at me. She can cut me off from every benefit of marriage, but at the end of the day she can’t leave without me helping her in some way. I had to call the mediator, I’ll have to pull the deal together; it’s just the way it’s been. She likes to blame me for every decision and she can because she doesn’t make any.
She blames me that she has no voice; but if you look up her personality profile, for an enneagram 9 it is a common trait that they struggle with their voice. They struggle to know what they want, and they do t make decisions or follow through. They say their spirit animal is the Sloth.
In regards to my “coach”, I’ve been doing phone consultations as advertised in this site for two years. I work with Chuck and he’s been phenomenal. He’s helped me grow tremendously, he’s helped me respect myself more, and he’s often kept me from doing something stupid by offering insight from his perspective. He’s several thousand people through this and so before taking a significant action, I’ll schedule a consult and run it by him.
I would definitely discuss this with Chuck.
Steve, did you work with Chuck?
Aaah a DB coach. Got it.
So yeah you have to let her stand on her own two feet. See if she will sink or swim.
Sounds Luke you will need some boundaries.
Steve, did you work with Chuck?
No, but I did have consults with a couple of other anti-D coaches. Their advice was invaluable. That is where I got the "set a drop dead date" from.
Scott, my fear is that if you don't decide you've waited long enough, then you'll wait forever. No one is worth that.
Ok. So just stop. That is what I’m hearing.
Correct, if you don't want the D then just pull back. Let her do all the work. Don't do anything to interfere, but don't do anything to move it along either. IE, if she needs certain paperwork from you to forward the D then provide whatever she requests. If she ever asks why you aren't helping then just state that you don't want a divorce but you know you cannot prevent her from pursuing one herself. So you will cooperate, but she needs to do the work since it's what SHE wants.
You say she's weak and can't do it herself. Count yourself lucky, you have the gift of time that some people here do not get. Some WAS's rush the D through with hardly a second thought. If your W doesn't push it through, and you pull back, then you have loads of time to work on your 180's, and time for her to see your changes and believe them.
I assume I just leave the mediation thing alone now. She’ll probably send us dates soon. I could call and tell her not to, but I assume the take from here is just leave it be.
Yes just let it go. If your W asks what the status is then tell her you're leaving it in her court and to let you know if she needs anything.
Next sitch: I have some friends going to breckenridge to go skiing in January. Normally, I would never go because she would have to watch the kids a couple days and i don’t want to put her out. Do I ask to go? Do I tell her I’m going? Do I ignore it and just tell the guys I can’t make it?
OK so this is where some LBS's get tripped up with the whole "detachment" thing. Detaching doesn't mean just dumping your kid care responsibilities on her whenever you want and just disappearing. That will just cause a lot of anger and resentment. Plus you've already stated the below:
"Things were actually improving with her saying “I love you” and giving hugs and kisses until about a month ago when she got upset I went out with my friends and started the divorce rhetoric again."
So to just go without her consent would look like "more of the same" behavior to her. It sounds like a good GAL activity, but you do need to get her buy-in if you're expecting her to take care of the kids. Tell her about it, tell her you would like to go, ask her if she is OK watching the kids while you are gone.
Sort of. Still not sure what you’re running by your coach. Not really sure what a divorce coach is.
I got a little tripped up on this as well but I think I figured out that he's talking about two different coaches. There's the divorce coach that his W has been consulting, and separately he has been talking to a DB coach.
Hi Scott,
AnotherStander's advice has usually been spot on for me. I see we both agree it's not right to dump the kids on her, but differ on how to approach the matter with her. I defer to his advice on this.
Well, her parents just bought her a house, she closes in it in 11/16. She did it all without telling me. She said she doesn’t want to rush the process. She’s not sure when she wants to tell the kids and she’s not sure when she will actually move in.
I would say that’s a pretty big development. I had mentioned that on Monday I called the mediator. I could fight it but there is no point. I think I do the best to negotiate for what I want.
After I found out I did talk with her about her pregnancy ten years ago that caused the hysterectomy. She shared that she never got over it. That every day she feels the pain of not being able to have more kids and that it consumed her. She said that when i would ask for sex on top of that, she felt more and more like she wasn’t a person any longer. That she had been used up and was being used.
During that time I had my head down and was working very hard. I expected the house to be her responsiblity and I offered no support. I tried to change that a little at a time and this year I do feel like I finally began to understand the emotional component. But like I said, she doesn’t trust it and she’s done. She needs time and space. Moving out will be good. Who knows what the future holds.
Let go. Stop trying to control what you cannot (and the past is part of that). Become the best ScottB you can be for your next R, with her or someone else.
Scotty B,
Sorry to hear about the recent development sounds like things are moving fast. Unfortunately she is done and will be for a really long time. Time and space are the only thing that may change it around. I have been divorced for almost 2.5 years and lead a pretty good life. My dating experiences have been bizarre to say the least but it’s 1,000% better then cohabitating with someone who doesn’t want to be there.
As for my ex, according to my kids she’s still miserable and they can’t take her anymore (their exact words). Guess she can’t blame me anymore lol.
Make the best deal you can and open the cage door. One day at a time Scotty B.
Well, her parents just bought her a house, she closes in it in 11/16. She did it all without telling me. She said she doesn’t want to rush the process.
Wow! She doesn't want to rush the process but she bought a house? There's just no end to the crazy things WAS's will say.
I would say that’s a pretty big development. I had mentioned that on Monday I called the mediator. I could fight it but there is no point. I think I do the best to negotiate for what I want.
Yeah given this development I would say you need to switch into negotiation mode and get child visitation settled and move to split all finances, bank accounts, credit cards, etc. I'm not saying to give up on the M but if she's moving then it's time to split everything apart to protect yourself.
Back to the trip you mentioned, given this new development and given that the trip is well after she closes on her house, I would say to go ahead and plan the trip without consulting her and when you negotiate the child visitation schedule with her then work those days into the schedule to where she has the kids during the trip. No need to tell her you're going or when or where, just coordinate the kid schedule around it.
AS,
Right, its crazy.
Today she sent a $10k retainer check to her attorney. I told her I thought we were going to work this out? Wild.
Monday we are having a meeting to begin to lay out a schedule to divide up some of the stuff. She starting texting me about splitting everything up and I said we need to have a meeting, I wasn't going to do it over text.
I'll book the trip at the last minute if I go. My friends are going to be out there for ten days. A last minute ticket will be a couple hundred bucks. I'll just book it then (if she leaves me a couple hundred bucks).
The great news is that one of my friends who she did not want me to talk to (that was in my wedding), I grabbed coffee with him this morning. He sat with me for three hours. It was awesome. Such a great dude, so understanding when I explained to him what had happened. It was great.
And my family and friends are so incredibly supportive, I really couldn't ask for more. I know there will be ups and downs, and I know that this is going to hurt more than I can imagine in this moment, but I'm surrounded by loving and caring people.
Finally, I had a really great call with my coach today. He is so insightful and good at helping me understand reality. My wife told me yesterday that I am controlling, and on this message board that topic has come up a good bit. My coach broke down for me what it means to be controlling versus influence. It was great - and he made the point that generally someone that is really controlling would never ask the question "Do I have a blindspot around being controlling?" We hashed it out and I felt great about it.
We then talked about the difference between emotional detachment and what he prefers, lovingly detaching and I felt great about that to. He said feeling the pain is good when it hurts, he would rather I feel the pain than have a cold heart. He said that I need to grow from it and not take it to heart. He had more to say, but it really resonated with me.
For anyone reading this, this is an unabashed plug for a DB coach. I've grown so much more through this by working with my coach than I ever could have done on my own or just with the message boards.
Anyhow - Its been a tough couple of days, I've taken a two hour walk in the woods alone, talked to my friends and family, had a great talk with my coach, the sun was out, its beautiful, the birds are singing. Now I'm heading home, which is scary, but I'll play my guitar tonight, maybe buy some firewood, have a beer, and it will be great.
Talk to you all soon. God Bless.
Hey Scott,
Kudos to you, that’s a great update considering the circumstances.
Stay the course, you’re doing great.
I posted and went home and he’ll broke loose. I can hardly believe it.
As soon as I walked in the door my wife told me that our son had stolen my daughters phone and that my wife had found it. He had been in it till 3am many nights over the last two weeks. My wife had been tearing the house apart looking for that phone. So together we came up with a punishment. That was just the start.
Then at dinner my daughter noticed my wife wasn’t wearing her wedding ring and in a calm but direct manner asked her fives times if she was getting a secret divorce.
Now i think my son over heard us one night, he ends up going outside. 15 minutes later we find him sitting in the rain without a shirt in crying. We spent the next couple hours comforting him and trying to get him to tell us what was going on because the trigger wasn’t 100% clear, but seemed pretty clear to me. Maybe i should have hit the divorce with him right there but I didn’t.
Once the kids went to bed I was full of rage. I had asked her earlier in the year to wear her rings until we told the kids. She stopped wearing them a month ago.
She came and sat next to me and asked me “what was up?” I told her she was selfish. I told her wearing her rings was small. And as you know it didn’t get better from there. Highlights: i learned she is suicidal, I learned she removed my shotgun from the house at some point in the last year and she won’t tell me wear it is, she obviously called me manipulative, controlling, and said “I know the cards you play and I’m not playing your mind games anymore.” I told her that the kids were not going to be fine and she said that she knew that, she had been saying that because she didn’t want me to guilt her with the kids. She accused me of being selfish and not moving out to give her space (I could go to my parents house). And when she found out I talked to my good friend, again she was furious.
I really didn’t care. She put my kids in a precarious position by being selfish. It’s obvious she is projecting. She is lying, being manipulative, and is psychology unhinged. Wild day, I just wanted to go home and sit by the fire with my guitar.
Today my best friend is coming into town and we’re spending the day together. For dinner I’ll be hanging out with three of the four guys from my wedding. Today is going to be a great day. But geez, last night was good insane.
So Scotty for all the reading and coaching you've been doing you are still making many mistakes. Trying to get her to wear her rings is controlling. Trying to make her stay in a marriage she is unhappy in and telling her the kids won't be ok is manipulative. She feels trapped right now and the only thing you can do right now is to let her go so she doesn't see you as her adversary.
So I'm sure your familiar wit the stages of grief. I think you are finally coming out of denial and are moving into the anger phase. It's gonna be difficult for you but you need to learn to control your emotions.
I'm really sorry you're going through this right now.
Hi Scott,
It’s painful to watch our kids hurting. I’m so sorry you went through this.
Then at dinner my daughter noticed my wife wasn’t wearing her wedding ring and in a calm but direct manner asked her fives times if she was getting a secret divorce.
If your kids are at the point of asking about it multiple times, she’s purchased a house, and you’re done earnestly trying (see tonight’s conversation), I suspect the time for secrecy is past and it’s time to be a straight-shooter with your kids about what you know to alleviate their fears and preserve trust.
I had asked her earlier in the year to wear her rings until we told the kids. She stopped wearing them a month ago. I told her she was selfish. I told her wearing her rings was small. she obviously called me manipulative, controlling
It doesn’t seem like the issue was.. small.. for either of you. You were trying to control her behavior in this instance. Could that have been a factor in her taking them off? It’s a shame they found out this way as opposed to a nice sit-down with both parents, although that doesn’t happen too often here.
i learned she is suicidal, I learned she removed my shotgun from the house at some point in the last year and she won’t tell me wear it is,
Woah—red flag here. My ex-wife being suicidal (and fears of murder-dioxide) is what prompted me to take custody of my kids. It’s easy to talk yourself out of how serious something like this is. Maybe consult with your attorney for options (evaluation/counseling) to ensure your kids remain safe?
And when she found out I talked to my good friend, again she was furious.
Why did you share that?
LH - I asked her to wear her rings back in February. I never brought it up again and I didn’t care if she put them in now; it’s too late, my daughter noticed and brought it up. I don’t think I was clear on that point.
With the kids, I’m not trying to convince her to stay, I want her to own the truth of the situation so that we can be on the same page and get them the help they need as well as to be aware of changes we each see in them; but to say they will be fine, I’m sorry I can’t accept that. If that’s controlling, then I am. We need to face the truth and work together in their best interest.
I was angry last night because if she had just continued to pretend until we told them as we discussed in our time, we would have been better prepared, but she couldn’t wear a wedding ring. I think that’s selfish, I think she put herself ahead of the kids.
. I fluctuate between acceptance and fear of the unknown and general anxiety. It comes in waves.
CW - I didn’t share that I met with a friend, my daughter over heard a conversation and asked how my breakfast was with the friend at dinner. I had no where to go on it, my wife asked about it again later.
Red Flag yes. I’m still processing that.
LH - Also, for better or worse, I just don’t care anymore. She’s moving out, that’s done. She bought a house. We’re getting divorced. I see no way around that. Mental illness runs through her family in a large way. She needs to get counseling to deal with her issues. Being separated will provide her time to do some work. If we get back together in a couple of years, so be it.
I’m sorry Scotty but you have no idea if your kids will be fine or not because you can’t predict the future. Also, I would argue they will be better of if their mother is happy. Now I’m not saying that D is going to maker her happy I’m just saying that’s how she feels right now.
The more you remind her what she’s doing to the kids the more she’s going to resent you. Trust me when I tell you her mind is made up and she’s not changing it anytime soon.
As far as wearing the rings I agree it’s selfish. I want to be crystal clear that you better get use to the fact that there is no bigger selfish human being then a WW spouse. Check out Diann Winggerts podcasts on the female midlife transition.
It’s very normal for you to have fear and anxiety about the future. I can promise you that it is no way close to being as bad as you envision.
As for the friend. Who gives a fuch what she thinks about you talking to him.
So she wants you to go live with your parents, who would then obviously know your marital issues, but it's angry about you taking to a friend? This is why you can believe nothing they say. She isn't suicidal. Suicidal people don't tell others that they are suicidal. That is her wanting you to feel sorry for her, to back off about the kids. Etc.
Believe nothing she says, Scott. And while you say you are accepting it, your actions continue to show you holding on for dear life. Would you say being angry is being detached, or still overly attached? The kids had to find out sooner or later. A lot of WAS just tell the kids themselves. It can always be worse. So just remember for DB principles. Remaining calm. Avoiding R talks. Listening and validating. Taking nothing she says at face value. GAL (all of this interaction is keeping you stuck!).
It will get worse before it gets better. Just focus on you and the kids and leave her to get own devices.
Steve - I appreciate you. I want to give up, tell her where to go, and get in with life but you remind me to do that but down a different and better path while helping me keep in mind a goal of saving the marriage the right way. My way is a bit angrier and won’t save it now. Your way is more artful, harder in my opinion, and better. The only challenge for me is using my anger to tell her where to go allows me to move through the grief stages and be done, where your way (at least for me) keeps me stuck with some hope that might not be good for me.
I don’t know. I like your thoughts. Remain calm- ok. Avoid talks - ok. Listen and validate - ok. GAL. Leave her alone - ok. Those are all good principles to follow.
Steve - I appreciate you. I want to give up, tell her where to go, and get in with life but you remind me to do that but down a different and better path while helping me keep in mind a goal of saving the marriage the right way. My way is a bit angrier and won’t save it now. Your way is more artful, harder in my opinion, and better. The only challenge for me is using my anger to tell her where to go allows me to move through the grief stages and be done, where your way (at least for me) keeps me stuck with some hope that might not be good for me.
I don’t know. I like your thoughts. Remain calm- ok. Avoid talks - ok. Listen and validate - ok. GAL. Leave her alone - ok. Those are all good principles to follow.
My only problem with the stages of grief is the part where they are linear. In reality, they are not. Most people do not transition from one into the other completely. Most of the time people are between two or even three of the stages at the same time. So a focus on moving yourself through them is probably the wrong way to look at it. Follow the process and tit will move through them naturally.
I posted and went home and he’ll broke loose. I can hardly believe it.
Very sorry you got hit with this, but it does happen. WAS's are going through all kinds of crazy emotions and they will cruise along in the background and just when you start to get complacent here they come with guns ablazin'. All you can do is roll with it and try not to let it ruffle your feathers. You've probably heard people here say "get off the roller coaster, that's from an old DB description that talks about how the WAS goes through all kinds of highs and lows like riding a roller coaster, and the LBS's job is not to ride it with them, it's to get off to the side where the ground is steady and unmoving and watch them ride the highs and lows from a safe distance. You're still letting her take you for a ride!
As soon as I walked in the door my wife told me that our son had stolen my daughters phone and that my wife had found it. He had been in it till 3am many nights over the last two weeks. My wife had been tearing the house apart looking for that phone. So together we came up with a punishment. That was just the start.
That actually sounds pretty good, the two of you dealt with a family problem together.
Then at dinner my daughter noticed my wife wasn’t wearing her wedding ring and in a calm but direct manner asked her fives times if she was getting a secret divorce.
Remember to listen and validate. Not just your W, but your kids too. "How does that make you feel?" Whatever she says, fear, anger, etc. don't try to minimize it and say empty things like "oh it'll be OK." Instead validate her feelings. "I hear you saying you are angry she quit wearing her rings, I am sorry you feel hurt by that." Note that you are not taking sides, you're not blaming your W or defending yourself. You are simply acknowledging your daughter's feelings.
Now i think my son over heard us one night, he ends up going outside. 15 minutes later we find him sitting in the rain without a shirt in crying. We spent the next couple hours comforting him and trying to get him to tell us what was going on because the trigger wasn’t 100% clear, but seemed pretty clear to me. Maybe i should have hit the divorce with him right there but I didn’t.
Again, LISTEN and VALIDATE. Don't ask him "what's wrong" or "Why are you acting like this". Ask him how he FEELS. "Son, you seem upset, can you tell me what you are feeling right now?" Then listen and validate. Don't try to "fix things".
Once the kids went to bed I was full of rage. I had asked her earlier in the year to wear her rings until we told the kids. She stopped wearing them a month ago.
But why were you really angry? Was it really the rings? Or was it just all the pent-up frustration and anger and sadness over your situation? Rings on, rings off, who cares. It's just jewelry. You might argue it's a symbol of your M, what M? Right now there is no M except on paper. There might be one later, but for now you have to accept that it's over.
She came and sat next to me and asked me “what was up?” I told her she was selfish.
How about telling her how you feel instead of instantly attacking her? "Oh I'm just angry and frustrated about everything, it's tough seeing the kids having trouble." Now normally we don't suggest sharing your feelings but I think in this case it would have been a good move, and very likely a 180 from how you've been in the past. Then you could invite her to share her feelings. "What are you feeling right now?"
I told her wearing her rings was small.
Why do you care about the rings? Search your heart on that. Again like I asked before, is this really about the rings.
Highlights: i learned she is suicidal, I learned she removed my shotgun from the house at some point in the last year and she won’t tell me wear it is, she obviously called me manipulative, controlling, and said “I know the cards you play and I’m not playing your mind games anymore.”
I would guess this just turned into a blame game with her telling you these things and you telling her how it's all her fault. Work on your validation skills, they will serve you well not just with her, but in all areas of your life. "You sound frustrated, is that how you feel? I can understand why you feel that way, this is a difficult situation for you I am sure."
I told her that the kids were not going to be fine and she said that she knew that, she had been saying that because she didn’t want me to guilt her with the kids.
And I believe she is 100% correct on this. I think if you dig deep, you were indeed trying to guilt her with the kids. You can't "nice" her back and you can't "guilt" her back. But if you listen and validate, she may start thinking "wow, maybe he really is changing, who is this caring, understanding person?"
She accused me of being selfish and not moving out to give her space (I could go to my parents house).
"You sound very frustrated, I am sorry that's how you are feeling." <<<THIS is NOT an admission of guilt or an apology. Validating is simply acknowledgement of feelings.
And when she found out I talked to my good friend, again she was furious.
Yes, they perceive this as "rallying the troops" against them. And the fact that she found this out from your D makes me think you're talking to your D too much about your situation. You need to be very careful with this. Do not discuss your situation except here, with your therapist or with people who have ZERO ties to your family. To any mutual friends/ family you just say "we're trying to work through some issues right now" and say nothing more.
Sounds like you cared a lot. And you should. But you should NOT react.
She put my kids in a precarious position by being selfish. It’s obvious she is projecting.
But what is HER view on this? Let's go back to your first post:
"A consistent one is that i don’t “get” her or that we don’t have an emotional connection. Now this seems to be the target, that I need to feel more and share my feelings to improve communication."
From her perspective, she's in a marriage with a man that she has no emotional connection with. He doesn't understand her, or even listen to her. He won't share his feelings or communicate with her. Now maybe that all seems silly to you, but to her it's a deal-killer. She's frustrated and has tried and tried and nothing makes a difference. So now she's trying to leave the M as a last resort to save herself and what is she getting from you? Anger, blame, hatred, venom. Really kind of more of the same, isn't it. Now I am not siding with her, but most D's happen because of a breakdown on both sides. This isn't just HER fault. Blame belongs to both of you. Accept your part of it. Accept the pain and hurt she is going through. Accept that she is just as much a victim in this as you are.
She is lying, being manipulative, and is psychology unhinged.
Is she lying, well most WAS's do. Is she manipulative, well she's trying to get her way so perhaps a bit. Is she psychologically unhinged, no it doesn't sound like it. But it sounds good to you, doesn't it. Kind of relieves you of all personal responsibility if you convince yourself she's crazy.
She's going on a personal journey. You need to go on one as well. Look back at your relationship, find things you could have done better. Consider the things she has told you, seek the truth in them. Do 180's where you need to.
But why were you really angry? Was it really the rings? Or was it just all the pent-up frustration and anger and sadness over your situation? Rings on, rings off, who cares. It's just jewelry. You might argue it's a symbol of your M, what M? Right now there is no M except on paper. There might be one later, but for now you have to accept that it's over.
I was angry because we had discussed her wearing her rings in February for this very reason. We had been discussing telling the kids soon on our terms as opposed to the kids finding out and to see my broken son on the front steps ripped my heart out. That combined with the fact she has been insisting that they will be ok, infuriated me. This had to do with the kids and from my perspective the fact she couldn't wear a ring so that we could shield them until we were ready to have the conversation.
How about telling her how you feel instead of instantly attacking her? "Oh I'm just angry and frustrated about everything, it's tough seeing the kids having trouble." Now normally we don't suggest sharing your feelings but I think in this case it would have been a good move, and very likely a 180 from how you've been in the past. Then you could invite her to share her feelings. "What are you feeling right now?"
I agree, this would have been a great opportunity and I missed it. I was triggered. And once I was triggered and was feeling like I just didn't give a crap in that moment, that was it for this opportunity.
And the fact that she found this out from your D makes me think you're talking to your D too much about your situation.
My daughter was getting dropped off at school when I took the call to say I'd meet him for coffee. I don't tell the kids anything.
----
So today we watched a video that worked through how to tell the kids. That went okay, it did turn into a bit of a relationship talk which is no good. Tomorrow we are watching another video on the same topic as we try to build out the plan for the kids.
I am on board with us separating. Nothing good will come from our current situation. We need space. She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?Thank you all for your help, thoughts, support, and prayers.
Hi Scott,
I am not following the details of your sitch, but read(skimmed) this last thread.
#1) Get a written agreement on a 50/50 parenting plan in place. This is your #1 priority.
#2) She is done. Agree with her that the marriage is over. There is no need for a separation. This does not mean you stop DBing. It just means you set her free. You do not try to control her. You do not try and manipulate her. You drop the rope. You drop the rope of controlling the outcome.
#3) Go on the trip. If it falls on your parenting time, and you would prefer to go without the kids, then give her the "first right of refusal". I have something the weekend of XYZ and want to know if you will watch the kids. I need to know your answer by "This date". Otherwise I will make other arrangements.
She has retained a lawyer. That [censored]. Most likely you will need one and they will "argue" over things to get as many billable hours as they can and then settle. That is just my perception. Hope fore the best but be very prepared for the worst.
Good luck sir
I am on board with us separating. Nothing good will come from our current situation. We need space. She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?[/b]
.
I always answer questions like this with a question (or questions). Do you want to be separated? Do you want a D? Here is the thing, WASs/WSs are notoriously lazy when it comes to these things. She wants you to do all the work. She wants to be able to look back and tell people (your kids?) that YOUR dad was the one that wanted a separation and/or divorce. Trust me on this, I've seen it dozens of times. One S has an affair or wants out of the marriage. The LBS finally gets tired of waiting and files for D. Years later the WAS' story is that "we were having problems, and ScottB pulled the plug."
I've told lots of LBS that were in IHS before, that if you think separation is going to help or fix things etc then you are sorely mistaken. We see a myriad of sitches on this forum and it always amazes me the GRASS IS GREENER attitude that LBS have. If in IHS they say "if we didn't have to see each other so much" etc....... But then read the sitches that are in physical separation. You see those LBSs saying "She won't talk to me. I have no way of showing her my many changes I am making." I've also so seen many IHS LBSs that HAD to push for S for their own sanity, only to find themselves separated and wishing they weren't.
The moral of this story is that Scott if you want a separation, then yes go for it. If you want a D, then yes go for it. But do not do it to fix the marriage or have any such expectation. Do not do it to "wake her up" to the reality of the sitch. If you try to S or D for any other reason than to be S or D then you will look back with regrets that you are S or D!!
My advice is to not lift a finger. Next time it comes up tell her it is her choice to S or D, not yours. If she wants S or D then SHE should move out and/or file. Of course she wants to make it your choice. It is like going out to eat. "Where do you want to go to eat?" "I don't know, where do you want to go to eat?" No one wants to make a choice in case it turns out to be the wrong choice! She is doing the same thing here.
Ride it out. Make her do the work. Listen and validate. Make no promises. Open that cage door and let her decide whether to go through it or not.
Ok. That was where I was headed initially. A friend of mine that had a WAW recommended the separation. Him and his wife separated, for back together, then divorced, then remarried. He said suddenly it was like a light switch went off. He said it was weird. They’re doing great now. He’s late 40’s but started when he About my age.
He kind of reiterated some of the hormonal stuff going on with women at this time that LH mentioned. Last night my focus was on lite conversation, watched an uplifting show, and went to bed. Tonight we’re supposed to watch a video on telling the kids to come up with our plan. We’re going to tell them either 11/6 or 11/13. On 11/20 the whole family is supposed to go away for Thanksgiving. At this time the plan is that it will just be me and the kids, but they obviously don’t know that yet. We go to the same place every year for thanksgiving for a week. I’m really worried about it - worries about how the kids will do being away from there mother that long at a time like this and with everything going on.
Ok. That was where I was headed initially. A friend of mine that had a WAW recommended the separation. Him and his wife separated, for back together, then divorced, then remarried. He said suddenly it was like a light switch went off. He said it was weird. They’re doing great now. He’s late 40’s but started when he About my age.
He kind of reiterated some of the hormonal stuff going on with women at this time that LH mentioned. Last night my focus was on lite conversation, watched an uplifting show, and went to bed. Tonight we’re supposed to watch a video on telling the kids to come up with our plan. We’re going to tell them either 11/6 or 11/13. On 11/20 the whole family is supposed to go away for Thanksgiving. At this time the plan is that it will just be me and the kids, but they obviously don’t know that yet. We go to the same place every year for thanksgiving for a week. I’m really worried about it - worries about how the kids will do being away from there mother that long at a time like this and with everything going on.
My W never left despite making bluster about doing it. And we eventually reconciled while IHS. There is no magic bullet and you will drive yourself crazy trying to find one.
I was angry because we had discussed her wearing her rings in February for this very reason. We had been discussing telling the kids soon on our terms as opposed to the kids finding out and to see my broken son on the front steps ripped my heart out. That combined with the fact she has been insisting that they will be ok, infuriated me. This had to do with the kids and from my perspective the fact she couldn't wear a ring so that we could shield them until we were ready to have the conversation.
It's not really possible to shield kids from these situations. Maybe early on, but not for long. Kids are intuitive, more than we give them credit for. They know when things are not right between their parents and if you try to hide it from them it makes them think it's their fault. So it's best to sit down with them and discuss it. What kids need to know first and foremost is that it isn't their fault, so emphasize that both of you love them, both of you support them, and no matter what happens between W and you, both of you will always be their parents and be there for them. They need reassurances more than anything. Ask them if they have any questions or concerns, and listen and validate.
I am on board with us separating. Nothing good will come from our current situation. We need space. She offered to me to separate or divorce, she says it is up to me. She said that there is 0% of us staying together, but if it would be easier on me we can start with a separation. She said we will not be working on the marriage during this time. My question is, do I just let us go ahead and go through with the divorce, or do I make the call to just start with the separation? Thoughts?
My thoughts are that it's HER decision, not yours. Your decision is to work on the M. If SHE pursues S or D, then you can't stop her and you won't stand in her way. But you also will not do the work for her. Look, I would absolutely not give her an "out" on this. If she tells you to decide between S and D, then no matter which you pick you've just given her permission to tell everyone "well he said this is what he wants". Don't give her the satisfaction! Tell her "I choose neither, I want to work on the M. But I understand that this is what you want and I will not stand in your way. I support your decision whatever it is." If you have a reading list, add Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" to it. A lot of it dovetails nicely with DR. He talks about "opening the cage door" for the WAS. WAS's will often say they feel "trapped" or "caged". Dobson compares the situation to a bird, it wants out of it's cage but if you open the door and it realizes it isn't trapped, it may decide it likes it in there after all. Or it may fly off and then come back, deciding it likes the safety of the cage after all. Or it may never come back, but the idea is you are stepping back and letting her decide. If she thinks you are controlling then this is a good 180.
Tonight we’re supposed to watch a video on telling the kids to come up with our plan.
If I were in your shoes, I would clean myself up and leave the house. If she asks, I would say "I have something important to take care of". If she asks "What is it". I would say "Nothing you need to worry about" and walk out. I would let her watch it alone. I would watch it by myself. I would wait for her to bring it up. I would listen and validate.
I agree with R2C. Y'all aren't together and you don't need to be doing things together. Scott needs to be out doing his thing.
AS - I bought the Dobson book. It gets here on Thursday.
I hired a cleaning lady for my house today and I am refinancing so that I have more money to pay her off with it. I had a good talk with a friend of mine who has been divorced, and continues to tell me that I'm going to be fine after this. His issue is that too many people try to set him up and he has to turn a lot of women down. It was a funny conversation.
Every day continues to be a roller coaster. Tonight we are watching a video on how to tell the kids. That's an opportunity to review this forum and really focus on my reactions as you all have coached me.
Either way, I agree with letting the caged bird fly. As my friend said, she is taking a risk too. I may find out that I can be happier as well. Have a great night peeps!
After we put the kids to bed last night, I watched some of the World Series and told her I was too tired to watch the video. I said maybe we do it in a couple of days.
I may ask her just to send it to me and watch it on my own like recommended. I'm still debating that. On the one hand, it sends the message that I am doing my thing, which is positive. On the other hand I read that there are opportunities in things we have to manage together like the kids. If I can show up and do a good job of interacting with her and avoid a negative interaction by staying calm, listening, validating, and empathizing, I believe that would be good.
I am feeling like I'm making peace with this and moving forward. Hopefully I can keep that momentum going as I think it is good all the way around. Looking forward to reading the book AnotherStander recommended.
Not to be a weirdo, but I am charting my journey here. I feel a weird energy today, had it yesterday too. It’s like fury, similar to confidence or excitement. I feel stronger. I can still feel some anxiety and sadness, but this other stuff is new. It’s good. I hope it builds and stays.
Scotty B,
That’s great but just be aware you are going to have many highs and lows in the coming months/ years. Her moving out, holidays dating another dude are going to be things that will temporarily set you back. When I need a pick me up I watch the YouTube video “Rockys speech to son”. You may or may not be aware that you are ahead of the game with most/some of your friends who are unhappily married right now. It’s a journey for sure that you have to try to enjoy every step of the way.
You’re gonna be fine Scotty B.
I watched some of the World Series and told her I was too tired to watch the video. I said maybe we do it in a couple of days.
Was this a 180 from your normal behavior? Did she look at you with a surprised look? Do you think this is an attractive trait?
Was this a 180?
Probably. Normally we watch TV together and normally we go to bed at the same time. And generally if I say I'm going to do something (we had committed to watching this video together last night for the kids) I do it. So I guess so.
I didn't notice that she seemed surprised or anything. I had to get up unexpectedly early, so I think it made sense that I went to bed. I think independence and confidence are attractive.
----
Today I went home at lunch to work out and just ran by her to change, didn't say anything. On the way out of the house she stopped me to talk about the kids. It was a touch weird as I felt like she wanted to talk and I wanted to leave.
I don't know. If I was looking for "signs" I would put something to it, but I feel like I'm past that. Had a great workout. Listened to some Busta Rhymes on Pandora at the gym - a completely underrated arrest, by the way - and had a solid workout.
That's one of the things I continue to do really well. I'm eating pretty good and still working out, though the emotions make it hard to workout as hard as I was - I get tired faster. Still, glad I'm doing those things. When I got home from the gym I noticed that I was kind of bummed she wasn't there - it was a weird feeling and I wish I didn't have it.
----
Tonight I found an excuse to get out of the house with my son. Monday I'm going out with a friend of mine and for the first time ever I didn't tell her with who or where I'm going.
----
I dread going home at night, which is why I'm on here more - staying at work later.
I am simply tormented and I'm doing it to myself, I think.
So I get home. She is making dinner and I'm helping and she's asking me about my day and such. I asked her the same back as a courtesy.
I take my son out at 7:30p and we get back at 9:35p. He needed to shower up and ice down an injury so I stayed up for him. She sat down next to me and starts to go into details about her dad who had a hard day (he has dementia) and fills me in on the entire situation. Once my son was done we went to bed.
Now yesterday morning, before I left the house I gave her a hug because my son was watching and I didn't want to let on with him what's going on - maybe a mistake (and of course I know he already knows). So this morning, the kids walk out of the house first and I'm last, and she hangs back and turns to me to give me a hug goodbye.
I normally go home for lunch, and so I did pack my lunch today so I won't go home until 5:30p or so.
I also was in a hurry to get the kids to school today because I had a meeting and she text me "I'm happy to take the kids to school any day if it helps. Know you said you are getting busier, lmk." And then she also sent me a message about my car saying there has been a recall and I might want to check it out.
I guess all of this is simply trying to be friends in the wake of this. It does mess with my head though.
I am simply tormented and I'm doing it to myself, I think.
So I get home. She is making dinner and I'm helping and she's asking me about my day and such. I asked her the same back as a courtesy.
I take my son out at 7:30p and we get back at 9:35p. He needed to shower up and ice down an injury so I stayed up for him. She sat down next to me and starts to go into details about her dad who had a hard day (he has dementia) and fills me in on the entire situation. Once my son was done we went to bed.
Now yesterday morning, before I left the house I gave her a hug because my son was watching and I didn't want to let on with him what's going on - maybe a mistake (and of course I know he already knows). So this morning, the kids walk out of the house first and I'm last, and she hangs back and turns to me to give me a hug goodbye.
I normally go home for lunch, and so I did pack my lunch today so I won't go home until 5:30p or so.
I also was in a hurry to get the kids to school today because I had a meeting and she text me "I'm happy to take the kids to school any day if it helps. Know you said you are getting busier, lmk." And then she also sent me a message about my car saying there has been a recall and I might want to check it out.
I guess all of this is simply trying to be friends in the wake of this. It does mess with my head though.
Yep...typical friendzone behavior. Which is why the hug was a mistake. If your goal is to be her friend, to get hugs goodbye, and do things for each other like friends do, then you are golden. If your goal is to be your W's lover then you are doing it all wrong.
Read:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414
Scotty B,
This is typical WW behavior based on guilt, habit and other feelings. She doesn’t hate you she just doesn’t feel she she can be happy married to you.
Steve’s right that everything in life is an negotiation. When someone changes the terms of a relationship and you don’t agree with it then you walk and never look back. When someone doesn’t see and appreciate your value then they get the gift of missing you.
I know you tend to get tripped up and when you do look at actions.
A hug and a offer to drive kids vs filing for divorce and buying a new house.
Was this a 180?
Probably. Normally we watch TV together and normally we go to bed at the same time. And generally if I say I'm going to do something (we had committed to watching this video together last night for the kids) I do it. So I guess so.
I didn't notice that she seemed surprised or anything. I had to get up unexpectedly early, so I think it made sense that I went to bed. I think independence and confidence are attractive.
----
Today I went home at lunch to work out and just ran by her to change, didn't say anything. On the way out of the house she stopped me to talk about the kids. It was a touch weird as I felt like she wanted to talk and I wanted to leave.
I don't know. If I was looking for "signs" I would put something to it, but I feel like I'm past that. Had a great workout. Listened to some Busta Rhymes on Pandora at the gym - a completely underrated arrest, by the way - and had a solid workout.
That's one of the things I continue to do really well. I'm eating pretty good and still working out, though the emotions make it hard to workout as hard as I was - I get tired faster. Still, glad I'm doing those things. When I got home from the gym I noticed that I was kind of bummed she wasn't there - it was a weird feeling and I wish I didn't have it.
----
Tonight I found an excuse to get out of the house with my son. Monday I'm going out with a friend of mine and for the first time ever I didn't tell her with who or where I'm going.
----
I dread going home at night, which is why I'm on here more - staying at work later.
Not doing what you say is unattractive and a bad 180. Going to sleep when there is still things to do is bad too.
Don't be friends with exes. Are you friends with all your ex gf's too? Don't be a jerk but you shouldn't be her buddy.
Scott, I think you're doing fine in your interactions with her. The main thing is NO R TALKS EVER, just keep the pressure off. Any convos should be very light. Hug her, don't hug her, watch the video with her, watch it separately, it really makes no difference. Right now she is done and nothing you do will change that. The "niceness" is just her trying to keep things copacetic until she can get out. Don't read anything into it. Any recon possibilities are pretty far down the road. My XW was very nice at times, inviting me to do things and such even after the S. So nice that sometimes I thought maybe she had changed her mind and would temp check her only to get put right back in my place! Don't make my mistake and temp check her because it makes you look desperate.
LH gets a gold star from me today. I'm 60 pages into Love Must Be Tough. It feels like this message board actually. I am a Christian so that particular point on 1 Corinthians 7:12-15 rang home.
Dobson basically says there that if she's leaving, let her. God won't hold me accountable for that. I wish I had found this book sooner and I wish I had more time to read it.
I’ve got two more big decisions out there to bring up. First, I have a work dinner at a very nice restaurant next week and she is invited. It feels like i should ask her not to go, but that would be a big reversal. I’m not sure how I go there.
The other is we have a family trip to visit my parents for thanksgiving. I had tried to convince her to go for the kids but I’m starting to think I should tell her she can’t go. Both of these are heart wrenching for me. I believe this board would agree with each of those actions. I’m just not sure how I bring each thing up.
She did finally reach out to a contact today to get a job which is good from my perspective. She continues to play house and ask how my day was, etc.
Tonight I went to run an errand (I never do that) and she was kind of pissed. She was going somewhere with my daughter and implied I needed to stay home with my 12 year old son (who is often home for 5 hours at a time). I just kind of played it off and went anyways.
Anyhow, thoughts from the peanut gallery on the first two items?
"Peanut gallery"
This phrase intends to reference hecklers or critics, usually ill-informed ones. In reality, the "peanut gallery" names a section in theaters, usually the cheapest and worst, where many Black people sat during the era of Vaudeville. If it's not directly racist, it's classist and rude at the very least.
If your parents know and she still wants to go that would be ballsy on her part. Either way no big deal either way.
I apologize, I wasn’t aware of the historical context of that comment.
Thanks for the enlightenment
Last night after dinner I said I was going to run to Bed Bath and Beyond. She was put off by that. She said she was going to take my daughter to find pajamas and was annoyed that i was going to leave our 12 year old son by himself. I just kind of shrugged my shoulders and went anyways. I had another errand to run too to return an amazon package, that was right next to BBB also.
I got home around 8:15 (was gone an hour) and she came home a little after. Around 9:15p my son and I went for a 30 minute walk. As we were walking he began to talk about a movie they watched in school and how a patient had Alzheimer’s and then mentioned how the teachers grandmother had it. Now my wife’s dad has dementia and I think my son kind of new, but no one has really talked to him about it, so I did on our walk. He was sad as we talked about it. We got home, he went to bed.
I came downstairs and was going to turn on the TV but she said we had some things to discuss. First she mentioned that she had gotten my son a referral to a counselor because she believes he is depressed (this is good because he’s going to be going through hard times), then she wanted to discuss whether or not we would let the kids go trick or treating with Covid going on (I was against it), then she mentioned that I was acting strange and the kids could tell. The fact I had a cleaning lady come check out the house and that I had left to run my errand were alerting them that something was up. She mentioned that she had done her part and had worn her wedding rings all week and that I needed to do mine. Then she asked me what I was really doing. She said she saw me come out of a store that I hadn’t said I was going into. She said she saw me when her and my daughter went to get pajamas. I simply told her where I had gone as I’m not hiding anything. And she wasn’t following me but It was an interesting coincidence the way the timing set up that she had taken my daughter to the store next to where I was.
I then mentioned the conversation I had with my son, to give her a heads up. She was very angry but stayed reserved. She said I had no place to tell him. She said this is why our marriage didn’t work. She said that I had no feelings or emotions around what I had done and she said I was being defensive. This was a tough moment for me as I struggle when I’m being chastised and I want to make it right and do the right thing. I apologized and said the conversation had just come up because of his school day. She said how complicated it was because her mom and her sister were still in denial and that if my son said something it would create a mess.
Then the date of telling the kids came back up, as to when we would do it. She wants next Saturday. I asked if her new house was on track to be bought and she said yes. That has been important to her in regards to the date we tell the kids. I told her I would go to my work dinner alone and the family trip for thanksgiving would just be me and the kids.
Finally I was able to end this dreadful conversation. I felt like I got suckered in because it was about the kids and then when I got accused of being sneaky and lectured on how I should t have told my son about the dementia (and she might be right about that - he’s twelve and I felt it was time for him to understand as he was learning about it in school - that could completely be my bad).
As we were getting ready for bed she said “At what point do you cancel your trip for thanksgiving (we’re flying)? You know, like you wanted to cancel trick or treat?” I told her that her first question was fair but that the second was a passive aggressive attack and I wouldn’t stand for it. She looked at me in mild disbelief when I said that. She said no it wasn’t, and then reiterated her first question. I said we would take it a day at a time. She asked again, what would make you cancel it and I said “if that state goes in the quarantine list.” Then she dropped it.
As we got into bed I apologized for possibly being out of line with the comments about her dad again and she said “you could have apologized downstairs (which is wild because I had - I just left it).
———-
So I thought going out to do my thing was good. Taking my son for a walk was good, to get out of the house again. Discussing the dementia with him was probably a misstep. And then falling into the trap of that conversation was a big misstep. Standing up to her passive aggressive attack was good. And then as she was talking in bed about her frustration I specifically heard the words listen and validate - so in that moment I did good.
Not sure any of it matters. I need to work on being gentle and loving but tough. My tough comes off as neither of those. I am trying to open the bid cage. Next weekend is going to be a [censored] show.
Scotty B,
Remember the analogy I gave you about wearing blue? All she sees now is blue. You don’t tell her where you are going that’s why she’s divorcing you. You have a conversation with your son she’s doesn’t like that’s why she’s divorcing you. You won’t cancel the trip that’s why she’s divorcing you. You could have a hot pink unitard on and she wouldn’t notice. The clock starts when she moves out and I would say minimum 2 years for her to see you as any other color. There is absolutely nothing you can do now to change the outcome. That ship sailed a long time ago.
At some point in middle age a woman wakes up and asks herself is this all their is to life? She has typically spent the last 10-20 prioritizing her children and husband. She feels now is her time and something needs to change because she is not happy. At this point typically the marriage and career are up for review and she’s not sure if she loves her husband anymore. What she doesn’t realize is that human beings are most unhappy in life between 40-55 (Happiness U-Curve) and as her hormones change and she stops producing as much estrogen she starts to loose those nurturing and loving feelings. So if she’s divorcing your because she’s unhappy typically 2-5 years later she finds herself in the same position except with someone with no history and typically with extra baggage. That’s why the divorce rate on second and third marriages are so high.
Make yourself scarce while still living together and decide if you want to stand and are in it for the long haul. My suggestion to you would be to build an amazing life and move on and if she ever changes her mind you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Typically by then too much damage has been done.
Last night after dinner I said I was going to run to Bed Bath and Beyond. She was put off by that. She said she was going to take my daughter to find pajamas and was annoyed that i was going to leave our 12 year old son by himself. I just kind of shrugged my shoulders and went anyways. I had another errand to run too to return an amazon package, that was right next to BBB also.
I got home around 8:15 (was gone an hour) and she came home a little after. Around 9:15p my son and I went for a 30 minute walk. As we were walking he began to talk about a movie they watched in school and how a patient had Alzheimer’s and then mentioned how the teachers grandmother had it. Now my wife’s dad has dementia and I think my son kind of new, but no one has really talked to him about it, so I did on our walk. He was sad as we talked about it. We got home, he went to bed.
I came downstairs and was going to turn on the TV but she said we had some things to discuss. First she mentioned that she had gotten my son a referral to a counselor because she believes he is depressed (this is good because he’s going to be going through hard times), then she wanted to discuss whether or not we would let the kids go trick or treating with Covid going on (I was against it), then she mentioned that I was acting strange and the kids could tell. The fact I had a cleaning lady come check out the house and that I had left to run my errand were alerting them that something was up. She mentioned that she had done her part and had worn her wedding rings all week and that I needed to do mine. Then she asked me what I was really doing. She said she saw me come out of a store that I hadn’t said I was going into. She said she saw me when her and my daughter went to get pajamas. I simply told her where I had gone as I’m not hiding anything. And she wasn’t following me but It was an interesting coincidence the way the timing set up that she had taken my daughter to the store next to where I was.
I then mentioned the conversation I had with my son, to give her a heads up. She was very angry but stayed reserved. She said I had no place to tell him. She said this is why our marriage didn’t work. She said that I had no feelings or emotions around what I had done and she said I was being defensive. This was a tough moment for me as I struggle when I’m being chastised and I want to make it right and do the right thing. I apologized and said the conversation had just come up because of his school day. She said how complicated it was because her mom and her sister were still in denial and that if my son said something it would create a mess.
Then the date of telling the kids came back up, as to when we would do it. She wants next Saturday. I asked if her new house was on track to be bought and she said yes. That has been important to her in regards to the date we tell the kids. I told her I would go to my work dinner alone and the family trip for thanksgiving would just be me and the kids.
Finally I was able to end this dreadful conversation. I felt like I got suckered in because it was about the kids and then when I got accused of being sneaky and lectured on how I should t have told my son about the dementia (and she might be right about that - he’s twelve and I felt it was time for him to understand as he was learning about it in school - that could completely be my bad).
As we were getting ready for bed she said “At what point do you cancel your trip for thanksgiving (we’re flying)? You know, like you wanted to cancel trick or treat?” I told her that her first question was fair but that the second was a passive aggressive attack and I wouldn’t stand for it. She looked at me in mild disbelief when I said that. She said no it wasn’t, and then reiterated her first question. I said we would take it a day at a time. She asked again, what would make you cancel it and I said “if that state goes in the quarantine list.” Then she dropped it.
As we got into bed I apologized for possibly being out of line with the comments about her dad again and she said “you could have apologized downstairs (which is wild because I had - I just left it).
———-
So I thought going out to do my thing was good. Taking my son for a walk was good, to get out of the house again. Discussing the dementia with him was probably a misstep. And then falling into the trap of that conversation was a big misstep. Standing up to her passive aggressive attack was good. And then as she was talking in bed about her frustration I specifically heard the words listen and validate - so in that moment I did good.
Not sure any of it matters. I need to work on being gentle and loving but tough. My tough comes off as neither of those. I am trying to open the bid cage. Next weekend is going to be a [censored] show.
I will disagree with you. The ONLY thing you did wrong was to not just listen and validate. I know it occurred to you in bed to do that, but you need to practice it so that it comes naturally.
"The kids are starting to notice that you are acting different." Just listen. No need to deflect, deny, defend. Just listen.
"Why are you acting different?" I am just trying to give you what you asked for.
"Well it makes me angry!" So you are saying that when I try to give you what you asked for, it upsets you. (Not a question, a statement.
I could go on but you get the point. Sometimes the WAS just wants to be heard. So listen. Sometimes they want their feelings understood. Validate. Sometimes they want to call you a dirty so-and-so. End the conversation and walk away.
I'd highly suggest that you kick her out of the marital bedroom after Saturday. The kids will know what is going on now. She is planning on moving out. So after the kids are in bed Saturday night. "Now that the kids know, I have decided you should sleep elsewhere." Be firm. Not angry or upset. If she protests, listen and validate but stand your ground.
Also, stop apologizing more than once. I don't think talking to your son about his grandfather's dementia is out of line. But if you truly did think she was right, ONE APOLOGY. Not more than one. That is NGS flaring back up.
So let's talk about Saturday, what is your plan for the talk with the kids?
Scotty,
I am going to disagree with Steve. There is no need to kick her out of the bedroom. She’s not having an affair and it will just come off as you being a dick and butt hurt. You don’t care if she sleeps there or not. You’re detached and letting her go to find her happiness.
Actually, LH makes a good point. No PA, no need to kick her out of the MBR. Plus she will be moving out soon so it is a moot point.
So I stand corrected, do not kick her out of MBR or even ask her to sleep somewhere else.
HOWEVER, she may very well broach the subject herself after the kids know. Likely she has been sleeping in the same bed with you only to keep up the illusion for the kids. DO NOT LEAVE THE MBR. That will likely be her tact. "I think you should sleep somewhere else." Do not respond or argue with her. Just when it is time for bed, get ready and get into bed. If she protests just say "I like sleeping here." Be prepared (because this sets back LBSs all the time) because she may decide to go sleep somewhere else. Let her.
Scotty,
don't get so wrapped up in her. Detach means detach. You're stuck in her world my man.
I would agree with her on your Covid logic being off (Halloween = not OK but Thanksgiving = OK). Personally I'm fine with you doing whatever you want but Halloween is a bunch of kids who aren't susceptible to covid and it's outside vs. Thanksgiving involving older folks indoors. If I was cancelling one it'd be the older folks indoors.
You need to get consistent in everything too. I don't think she knows what to expect.
First, I have a work dinner at a very nice restaurant next week and she is invited. It feels like i should ask her not to go, but that would be a big reversal. I’m not sure how I go there.
So you followed my suggestion on Love Must Be Tough, good! But what have you learned in reading it? What does "opening the cage door" mean? It means DO NOT TRY TO CONTROL AND MANIPULATE. Right? You show her that the cage door is open, and you step back into the shadows and let her do what she chooses. So with that in mind, what should you do about the dinner? It should be obvious- LET HER DECIDE. The cage door is open. She can go. She can not go. It's up to her. So here's what you should do- tell her "that work dinner is on (day) at (time), you're welcome to join me if you want but if you don't want to I completely understand." It's her choice.
The other is we have a family trip to visit my parents for thanksgiving. I had tried to convince her to go for the kids but I’m starting to think I should tell her she can’t go.
Hopefully after reading the above you know what to do about this too.
A lot of LBS's make a mistake on these things, they think that if they always told the WAS what to do before BD, that a nice 180 from that is telling them what not to do. That is not a 180, it's "more of the same" behavior. It's still control and manipulation. A 180 is stepping back and letting the WAS decide.
then she wanted to discuss whether or not we would let the kids go trick or treating with Covid going on (I was against it)
Did you discuss it or just tell her you were against it? All else aside you are still coparenting and need to work together as a team. "I feel it's not a good idea because of Covid, what are your thoughts?" Listen and pay close attention when she talks.
She mentioned that she had done her part and had worn her wedding rings all week and that I needed to do mine. Then she asked me what I was really doing. She said she saw me come out of a store that I hadn’t said I was going into. She said she saw me when her and my daughter went to get pajamas. I simply told her where I had gone as I’m not hiding anything.
Listen and validate. "It sounds like this upset you, is that how you feel?" "Not upset, I just don't think you're being honest with me." "I see, I can understand why you would feel that way, I will try to communicate better with you." Validating is not admitting fault, it is simply acknowledging her feelings.
So we talk about detachment and GAL'ing, but when you have kids it's important to continue your parental responsibilities. One suggestion I've offered people in the past is if you want an evening (or two) to do your own thing, then sit down with your W and tell her that. Tell her what evenings you want to yourself, and offer her the same. For example, you might say "I would like some freedom to be able to have an evening where I can get out of the house without the kids and go do my own thing, and was thinking maybe you would like one as well. So how about I take Tuesdays and you take Thursdays?" This way you get your private time to do whatever you want and you can choose not to tell her what it is, but at the same time you're not shirking your responsibilities or just disappearing.
I then mentioned the conversation I had with my son, to give her a heads up. She was very angry but stayed reserved.
I think she had every right to be angry about that, it's something you should have consulted with her about first. This again is going to look to her like control and manipulation.
She said this is why our marriage didn’t work. She said that I had no feelings or emotions around what I had done and she said I was being defensive. This was a tough moment for me as I struggle when I’m being chastised and I want to make it right and do the right thing. I apologized and said the conversation had just come up because of his school day. She said how complicated it was because her mom and her sister were still in denial and that if my son said something it would create a mess.
She makes some good points. Something to think about a 180 on.
And then falling into the trap of that conversation was a big misstep. Standing up to her passive aggressive attack was good. And then as she was talking in bed about her frustration I specifically heard the words listen and validate - so in that moment I did good.
Conversations are not "traps" and the only misstep is when you don't listen and validate. It's good that you eventually remembered, but hopefully you'll remember at the BEGINNING of the convo next time instead of at the end!
There is absolutely nothing you can do now to change the outcome. That ship sailed a long time ago.
This is true. You're not trying to win her back right now, you're trying to lay the groundwork for that to happen later (much later probably).
Make yourself scarce while still living together
LBSs really struggle with this, but just fading into the shadows is absolutely the best thing you can do right now. I call it "removing yourself from the equation." Right now all her calculations on why her life isn't perfect all point to you. Everything you try to do just reminds her of what her central theme is (that she wants you gone). There's a line Cersei used in Game of Thrones- "your very presence irritates me." This is how she feels about you right now. So you fade into the background. Eventually she'll realize she's still unhappy despite you not being around and ever-present anymore. THAT is when she (hopefully) starts working on herself.
AS “ Your very presence irritates me” made me spit coffee on my computer lol. Thx!
LH - I hear you. You've sent me good stuff to read on this account and it lines up exactly with everything I know and everything I've read. I'm struggling to accept it because I know its all circumstantial, hormone driven stuff. In my career I've studied this curve and I've always been aware of it, so it is very frustrating to be locked into it.
I definitely think I've fanned the flames as well without realizing it. She has consistently held me hostage since her EA blaming me for everything under the sun, including the EA and I have consistently worked to improve and change, I've consistently owned my part and she has never taken any of the blame. This has just fed her lack of respect for me. Dobson's book and a consult I had with the guy that wrote about the pursuer - withdraw dynamics (can't remember that book) both nailed the fact that I've proven her [censored] doesn't stink. The worst she treats me the more I do for her. Its twisted and sick and as my self-esteem and self-worth have plummeted, she's completely taken me. She's also abused the fact that I believe marriage is for life - which led me to kowtow to her.
Hopefully I can learn to respect myself again and begin to not let her treat me like this, for me.
HOWEVER, she may very well broach the subject herself after the kids know. Likely she has been sleeping in the same bed with you only to keep up the illusion for the kids. DO NOT LEAVE THE MBR. That will likely be her tact. "I think you should sleep somewhere else." Do not respond or argue with her. Just when it is time for bed, get ready and get into bed. If she protests just say "I like sleeping here." Be prepared (because this sets back LBSs all the time) because she may decide to go sleep somewhere else. Let her.
The kids are being told on 11/7, next Saturday. And I will not leave the bed.
A lot of LBS's make a mistake on these things, they think that if they always told the WAS what to do before BD, that a nice 180 from that is telling them what not to do. That is not a 180, it's "more of the same" behavior. It's still control and manipulation. A 180 is stepping back and letting the WAS decide.
Well AS, you are right. I did this wrong. I just went the other way and told her she wasn't coming to each. My thought was to begin to create the crisis sooner than later like Dobson talked about.
Did you discuss it or just tell her you were against it? All else aside you are still coparenting and need to work together as a team. "I feel it's not a good idea because of Covid, what are your thoughts?" Listen and pay close attention when she talks.
I thought we discussed it and came to a compromise.
Everything you try to do just reminds her of what her central theme is (that she wants you gone). There's a line Cersei used in Game of Thrones- "your very presence irritates me." This is how she feels about you right now. So you fade into the background. Eventually she'll realize she's still unhappy despite you not being around and ever-present anymore. THAT is when she (hopefully) starts working on herself.
That's strong. And so true. Our house is small. Its hard to fade, we don't have many places to go, its hard to find separation unless I just go to bed right after the kids do.
I need practice on this Listen and Validate thing. Suggestions? Steve's sample conversation was actually helpful.
One of the most frustrating pieces is you can not use logic and reason with someone who is basing everything on feelings and emotions.
Hi Scott,
I was going to go line-by-line with your dialogue and where you had opportunities to validate--but reading the follow-ups, that's already been done and been done skillfully. A book I found helpful was, "The Lost Art of Listening, Second Edition: How Learning to Listen Can Improve Relationships". The cool thing is the tips from here have also bled over into my discussions with my kids, subordinates, and coworkers. It's available in print, digital, and audiobook forms depending on your preferences. I do see strength in you--you are not failing each encounter the same way, but rather getting many things right and a couple of things wrong as you learn and try to incorporate what you're learning. Stay strong and keep it up!
Hi Scott,
I was going to go line-by-line with your dialogue and where you had opportunities to validate--but reading the follow-ups, that's already been done and been done skillfully.
I was as well,but the others did a great job.
When things are difficult, I love giving two choices. Both of which I am OK with. I did this frequently with my children as well as my X.
As we were walking he began to talk about a movie they watched in school and how a patient had Alzheimer’s and then mentioned how the teachers grandmother had it.
VALIDATION- Do this with your children as well. Most parents do not know how important this is. How could you have responded different?
I came downstairs and was going to turn on the TV
What other choices could you have made?
I bought the lost art of listening. It will be here on Monday. Regardless of the future it seems like that would be a good book to add to the library.
Happy Halloween! I hope you enjoy the book as much as I have.
Thanks CW. I’m sure I’ll learn a lot.
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I wish you all could watch how natural and normal our family functions. It’s crazy to me. The divorced people I know didn’t look or act like this, which is what makes this so mind bending. We carved pumpkins as a family and operated seemlessly all day long. It’s crazy.
Ye, crazy being the operative word here...
Thanks CW. I’m sure I’ll learn a lot.
———-
I wish you all could watch how natural and normal our family functions. It’s crazy to me. The divorced people I know didn’t look or act like this, which is what makes this so mind bending. We carved pumpkins as a family and operated seemlessly all day long. It’s crazy.
It's called having her cake and eating it too. How sure are you she isn't in an A?
I can’t be certain she’s not in an affair. I haven’t seen anything to tip me off.
Today was interesting as she was going after my son. He had a soccer game and the other team was really talking a lot. They kicked a ball in when our goalie had it and we thought the goalie broke his wrist. The other team started calling themselves goalie killers. I relayed that to my son as he is fast and very solid. He went in hard for a 50/50 ball and got a yellow card after that. On a run down the field where he had a step, a kid tried to take his ankles out and he stayed on his feet inside the box.
After the game one of the dads, who is big into soccer said on the trip he should have gone down to draw a PK. And said that the 50/50 ball was solid and aggressive. Other parents were telling him the same, and I agreed. When we got in the car she chastised him. We got out to eat and twenty minutes later she made another passive aggressive remark to him when he was playing with his sister asking why he didn’t just lower his shoulder on her. Then we got in the car and he said he should have flipped when they tried to trip him and she asked him if that’s how he wanted to plat the game. Finally he had enough and said “Yes, because that’s how you’re supposed to play it.” I was close to chiming in but just stayed back. I didn’t like her going after him because the reality is she doesn’t like his aggression because it reminds her of me. She also doesn’t like his confidence for the same reason and she has said as much. The tension in the car was definitely rising.
It was just interesting to watch play out. Especially as so many other parents were telling him he played a great game.
———-
This is going to be a big week. She makes final decisions on the house, plan is to tell the kids Saturday, and then she’ll also tell them she’s not going to Florida. I have will not let her say the divorce is mutual, so it will all get interesting. And she’s not planning to actually move out for several weeks - probably first or second week of December.
We’re also hosting a neighborhood progressive dinner on 12/12 that I forgot about. Invitations were sent out and everything, so that will be very interesting.
Scotty B
What are your thoughts about her not saying the divorce is mutual?
It’s not mutual. That’s all. Simple. As a Christian it makes a difference as to who is leaving who. My kids are in a Christian school and know our values, that’s all. Through the scriptures (1 Corinthians 7:12-15) I’ve found peace. Saying this is mutual feels like giving the last piece of myself away. I don’t know that i can do that and I don’t think i should.
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So because my son won his soccer tournament I bought prime steaks and desert. My wife and I had a bottle of wine with our steaks. We always eat as a family. Eventually the kids went to the next room and my wife began to talk about conversations she has been having with her mom. It was really interesting. Her whole love she saw her dad as loving, but through her moms eyes she has begun to see him as selfish. He provided for his wife and daughters. His wife never had to work. He bought her a house and a lake house. He would buy her a new car every two years. He was an avid hunter and unfortunately hunting season always fell on his wife’s birthday as well as Valentine’s Day. He got his wife fresh flowers weekly.
Well, as my wife talked to her mom her mom said she never wanted the house (that they have lived in for 45 years) and that he bought it without asking her. She didn’t want the new cars, because she hated changing cars after she had just gotten used to one. She said that it hurt her that he always went hunting on her birthday and the one year he stayed home to go to a concert with her, he left after the concert - that night - to go hunting. And she has always resentedbhis business dealings (which provided their lifestyle). They went on great vacations, spent lots of family time together, had a boat and a lake house - it seemed idyllic.
But her mom is resentful and angry and isn’t happy with her life or marriage. Again, now my wife’s dad has severe dementia and her mom is having to take care of him, but is abusing him. Her opening up and telling me all of this was wild. She also mentioned that her mom is using a counselor that seems to be making things worse, and then my wife said how her coach (the divorce coach) is so much better because she helps people find clarity.
My wife has always said her mom was selfish and that her mom makes everything about herself. It’s really wild that now she’s having this perspective on her dad too.
Her mom sent her sister a text that said “I’m sorry I’m a horrible wife, i will try not to be so emotional and share my feelings with you.” —that was perceived as a fig by the sister because it was in defense of her moms horrible treatment of her dad.
Anyhow, long story short. That was a LOT to share at this point in our relationship, especially when her mom is the one buying her the house! Her sister doesn’t know about that yet either - which is wild to me.
Listen Scotty you certainly have the right to tell you kids that this is not mutual and is your Ws decision because technically it is her who wants the D. You are risking her being more resentful of you and using this as another ploy to keep her in the marriage. Your kids are awful young to take on the burden of thinking their. Mother is single handling destroying the family structure. There will be time in the future when they are old enough for the truth but I hope your side of the street is squeaking clean. Just my take on it Scotty B.
IMO you should have taken your S's side in the argument and be a leader of the family. I think your son was sort of counting on you to have his back. Try to be more alpha.
With that in mind I agree with you to not play the D as a "mutual" thing. That being said, it is not the paramount thing here. I do believe this is what LH had in mind. If you go on a defensive from the start, the true message will be lost. And the true message is twofold:
1. what ever happens, your kids must be ABSOLUTELY sure that you love them both.
AND
2. they have to know that the divorce is NOT their fault in any shape or form. And this point must be reiterated several times during the conversation.
With that being said, the end point is that it IRRELEVANT who's fault the divorce is. The truth will come out sooner or later and rest assured, the truth will come out. I would suggest you and your W agree prior to the talk that you will not go down the mutual D talk road .
Scotty I think you really have to be honest with yourself on why you want to tell your children it is not mutual. Really dig down deep. Is it really because it's the Christian thing to do? In one of your earlier you mentioned you were in bed with your W premarrige while she had a boyfriend. Now I'm not religious but I am pretty sure that is not the Chistian thing to do.
Something to think about.
LH - Fair. I’m not sure this is the place for redemption stories of this nature but when I was 17 I prayed that God would
Leave my life. I was broken and lonely and wanted to have “fun”. Many years later i prayed the opposite prayer and now have a very different focus.
Vapo - great points. I need to keep the kids front and center. My anger may cloud my thoughts during that conversation and I need to stay focused on the kids. I’ll own my part if that comes up, but if it comes up or I’m asked, I will not say that i want a divorce or that I don’t think we could work this out. Maybe that is not opening the bird cage door the right way, but I’m struggling with my value after being kicked to the curb by my spouse. The one thing i can hold onto was that I never gave up, she did. That’s her right, she can do that. But I’m not going to own her decision, it’s hers.
Before you make a decision I would ask yourself if what you are about to do brings you closer to your goal or away from it. Look if you want to do the Christian thing and tell the truth that’s fine. If you want your kid’s resenting your W for this while they are already going through a difficult time that’s your right too. One of the number problems with people on the board are they are so desperate to save their marriage out of fear they have no patience. The truth always has a a way of coming out one way or another.
Scott, all of the expert advice I've read on talking to the kids says to keep the kids out of the details. "Mommy and daddy just do not love each other anymore." type of statements. Things that do not cast blame on either parent. Make it seem as mutual as you possibly can without lying.
Son: "Dad, is this what you want?"
You: "I want what is best for everyone, including you kids and your mom."
Notice, didn't lie. Didn't say: "Nope, this is all on your mother!"
And trust me, the kids will know. They don't have to be specifically told. Kids are much more perceptive than you think they are. The truth always has a way of winning out.
Also, scott, you are well over 100 posts here, you should probably start a new thread.