Hi! I've been reading posts for the past week and desperately need some advice. My W52 and I (W50) are married and have been in a lesbian relationship for 21 years. We have been experiencing issues with our R for a few years now. Two years ago we decided to attend MC. It was rough, but last year I really felt we were making progress and on the path to resolving many of our problems. Feb 2019 was our 20th anniversary. I decided to buy her a beautiful engagement ring (she never had one) to symbolize a new beginning for our M. Took her to dinner to a fabulously romantic restaurant, she was presented with a customized menu congratulating us both on our anniversary, ordered champagne and gave her the ring, along with a promise of a new beginning. She was shocked and we had a fantastic evening.
We continued MC and working on us. Fast forward to Memorial Day 2019, we had a huge bbq, as has been our custom for the past 16 years to kick off the summer. It went well, we had a bunch of new people over including a new co-worker of her's that I was meeting for the first time. Everyone was gone by 10 PM that evening. I went upstairs to our MBR and she stayed in the kitchen. About an hour later she hadn't come up so I went downstairs figuring she had fallen asleep on the couch. I hear her talking on the phone in the kitchen and as I approach, I hear her say I love you and I know you've been waiting to hear that for awhile. I was shocked and frozen in place at the entrance to the kitchen. She never heard me approaching. I stood there and listened to the rest of the conversation (her side only) for another 15 minutes, I guess. It became obvious that she was having an A with the co-worker she invited to the bbq that afternoon. I had absolutely no idea there was anything going on between them. The OW had only been working directly with her for a couple of months.
I went back upstairs right before she hung up and absolutely lost it. I threw my wedding ring at her as soon as she came through the bedroom door and confronted her with everything I had heard. She absolutely denied everything and claimed that I was only hearing one side of the conversation and misinterpreted what I was hearing. She actually swore on our daughters life that I had it all wrong. When she did that it actually made me pause and doubt myself. We continued at it throughout the night. By the morning she had me completely second guessing myself. She even suggested I call our T so that I could discuss it with her. Which I did the next day. We went to MC the following Saturday, which was our normal weekly appointment day. Discussed everything and she adamently insisted that I had it wrong. Devised an entire story to explain everything I overheard. She convinced me and the T.
Over the next month the A just escalated and it became painfully obvious. Spending hours upon hours on the phone with her whenever I wasn't around. I started checking the phone bills when her behavior was changing. When we were together, she was constantly texting. The phone never left her which was totally out of the norm. By mid June I confronted her in MC and again she just denied everything. This became our norm every Saturday in MC for the next month. She even had our T convinced that I was just being jealous and insecure. The T confronted me about the jealousy and insecurities several times during our individual talks. I had both my W and T gaslighting me.
In August, I finally had enough and decided to place a recorder in her car, its where most of her phone conversations took place. Needless to say I had all the proof I needed that they were involved in a PA. Apparently my W had paid for 3 hotel room visits and was actively planning a 4th on the recording. I confronted her and told her I had definitive proof that she was having a PA (did not say what the proof was), packed my clothes and left her. Went to stay at my brother's. The next day I phoned our T and told her about the recording and everything that was said. My wife also spoke to her. I was NC for the next 4 days. By Thursday, I couldn't take it anymore and phoned her to arrange a meeting to talk. Came home on Friday to discuss. She admitted to getting carried away and having an inappropriate relationship but denied sleeping with her. Claimed the hotel visits were just a means for them to spend time alone together. Only admitted to kissing her. Didn't believe a word of it.
We went to MC the next day. The T refused to listen to the recording. Admonished me for recording her saying that it was a gross violation of her privacy and went on a spiel about how illegal it was. I lost it in MC, telling them both that I felt I had no other option as I had been confronting my wife for weeks at home and in MC and I just kept being accused of being jealous and insecure by both her and the T. Anyway, my W agreed to back off from the OW and work on us. I agreed to come back home. Note that my W and the OW work side by side on a daily basis. Their offices are right next to each other and they have ample opportunity to be alone as others in the office are usually out in the field.
A few months later calls to the OW start popping up on the phone bill again. Once again I confront her and my W insists that they are just friends and she wants to be able to have a friendship with her moving forward. Back to MC and the T tells me that I have no right to dictate who my W can be friends with. Agrees with my W that she should be allowed to have a friendship with her as my W swears that it is absolutely platonic. I lasted a couple of more weeks with the back and forth and quit therapy. My W continues to see her for IC.
Fast forward a year now and my W is definitely involved in an EA with the OW. I have been fighting her tooth and nail about it and my W finally told me this weekend that she no longer wants to be married. Wants us to separate but has no intention of kicking me out of the house. (The house belongs to her family. We sold our house and took this one over when her mother passed away 6 years ago). She doesn't know what the future holds for us as she has never believed in divorce but knows that our marriage is a disaster and she has no intention of giving up her "friend".
I read The Divorce Remedy and know that I did everything wrong from the fighting, the begging the pleading, and the snooping. The last thing in the world I ever wanted is to loose my wife but I don't know how I can possibly do this or if I should do it. She has been lying to me for a year, our marriage was a mess prior to the A and now it seems unfixable. I don't know if I can remain in my home as a separated couple. Won't be able to emotionally tolerate it. Seriously thinking of leaving. I need to know what the right thing to do is.
Welcome!
I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome Posting. Please read all of the links as they have lots of great info.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htmand Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
We had the separation talk on Friday. Today she tells me, the T told her not to jump into a separation or even begin contemplating a divorce until we sincerely attempt to transition our R into something new if possible. She wants to take it one day at a time and see if we can figure it out.
I can’t get past the fact that she is in a EA with her co-worker and won’t admit it. I need to re-read the DR and try to figure out how to begin DB despite the way I feel. The biggest challenge for me is getting out of my funk. I really need to learn how to fake it when I am with her.
On the other hand I am so tired of trying to fix our M. Don’t know if it is worth the effort after all the lies. I am so conflicted.
Mar252
I'm sorry you are going through this. You will find great support here.
We had the separation talk on Friday. Today she tells me, the T told her not to jump into a separation or even begin contemplating a divorce until we sincerely attempt to transition our R into something new if possible. She wants to take it one day at a time and see if we can figure it out.
No more R talks. If she wants to take it a day at a time so be it. When she talks - validate as best you can but don't engage. It will only cause more pain.
I can’t get past the fact that she is in a EA with her co-worker and won’t admit it. I need to re-read the DR and try to figure out how to begin DB despite the way I feel. The biggest challenge for me is getting out of my funk. I really need to learn how to fake it when I am with her.
I saw that in your post that you "definitely" know w is in an EA with OW. Is this because you are snooping, recording her again or do you just have that gut feeling? If you are snooping... stop. The reality is that you can't control what your wife does. You can't control who she talks to. You can certainly ask... which you did and she said no... so now what? What are your boundaries around this issue?
On the other hand I am so tired of trying to fix our M. Don’t know if it is worth the effort after all the lies. I am so conflicted.
That's valid... so let's put the effort on you instead. What do you think you could have done better in your M? What were your wife's complaints?
Sorry to hear your story but it is quite familiar. I can't believe, but can relate, to how long it has been going on.
Some of the things you are doing seem to not be working very well. I would coldly analyze those and choose a better course of action. I would start expecting her to lie. Stop engaging her. Pull way back. Guard your heart.
The best thing you can do is to detach from her and start to forge your own path. Find yourself again, find new hobbies, work on self improvement. This is called GAL. This will help clarify what is happening in your world.
Your therapist sounds horrible. I think a lot of them are more concerned with their worldview than actually using CBT (the only evidence based therapy). How could your W be "just friends" with an affair partner? I mean really it's a wonder how this person is practicing. Have you ever noticed when someone tries so hard to convince you of something, that they are in fact lying? The truth is right before your eyes. Unfortunately our emotions can guide them astray and that is why we detach. You did nothing wrong in uncovering this affair. Nothing. Get your mojo back immediately if not sooner. You got this.
I saw that in your post that you "definitely" know w is in an EA with OW. Is this because you are snooping, recording her again or do you just have that gut feeling? If you are snooping... stop. The reality is that you can't control what your wife does. You can't control who she talks to. You can certainly ask... which you did and she said no... so now what? What are your boundaries around this issue?
Valeska19 - Thank you so much for your response. I occasionally look at the phone bill, but you are right I need to stop. It does me no good. Honestly there is no need to. I've known my W for 25 yrs and I know in my heart and soul that she is still lying to me. You are absolutely on point when you mention boundaries. My lack of adequate boundaries over the
course of our entire R has been the core issue of most of our disagreements. I believe this is my primary problem. I need more guidance to learn how to develop them appropriately.
That's valid... so let's put the effort on you instead. What do you think you could have done better in your M? What were your wife's complaints?
I realize I have made a lot of mistakes and have many 180's to work on. She and I have both hurt each other throughout the years. We both have/had childhood issues that we needed to resolve. It was the initial reason we mutually agreed to attend MC. Unfortunately, we did not have the right T.
I hope to find another IC for myself soon. Also looking forward to the guidance offered here from those that have already weathered similar storms.
The best thing you can do is to detach from her and start to forge your own path. Find yourself again, find new hobbies, work on self improvement. This is called GAL. This will help clarify what is happening in your world.
Hi Ovrrnbw - I finally realize this. It's the reason I am here. Trying to begin the work to detach and heal myself.
Your therapist sounds horrible. I think a lot of them are more concerned with their worldview than actually using CBT (the only evidence based therapy). How could your W be "just friends" with an affair partner? I mean really it's a wonder how this person is practicing. Have you ever noticed when someone tries so hard to convince you of something, that they are in fact lying? The truth is right before your eyes. Unfortunately our emotions can guide them astray and that is why we detach. You did nothing wrong in uncovering this affair. Nothing. Get your mojo back immediately if not sooner. You got this.
Unfortunately, our T completely botched the response to the A and my wife is still seeing her in IC. I realize that after an entire year of this back and forth that I need to break this pattern and figure out a way to move forward. Please keep the advice and guidance coming. I especially need help with boundaries.
"The most harmful lies I have ever told are the ones I have told myself".
I just borrowed this from Ginger1. She posted it on another thread and it completely resonated with me. I've been doing this with regard to my M for a long time now.
Can someone recommend a thread the discusses boundaries at length? Thanks
I just noticed the thread created by Wonka In the welcome post.
I just noticed the thread created by Wonka In the welcome post.
Plus their are some other links in that thread.
I saw that in your post that you "definitely" know w is in an EA with OW. Is this because you are snooping, recording her again or do you just have that gut feeling? If you are snooping... stop. The reality is that you can't control what your wife does. You can't control who she talks to. You can certainly ask... which you did and she said no... so now what? What are your boundaries around this issue?
Valeska19 - Thank you so much for your response. I occasionally look at the phone bill, but you are right I need to stop. It does me no good. Honestly there is no need to. I've known my W for 25 yrs and I know in my heart and soul that she is still lying to me. You are absolutely on point when you mention boundaries. My lack of adequate boundaries over the
course of our entire R has been the core issue of most of our disagreements. I believe this is my primary problem. I need more guidance to learn how to develop them appropriately.
I think your gut is probably right. So just assume it so and stop looking. I know for me personally, I am always perplexed by the lesbian community over their need to be friends with their exes. I haven't spoken to my XW in over 6 years. I plan on keeping it that way.
I think the temptation you are going to have right now is to set a deal breaker boundary.. because of the pain you are experiencing. A "Either she's out or I'm out" mentality. I want to caution you and advise against this unless you are 100% okay with the possibility of losing your marriage. Because there is a good chance your w won't come back and you will have to be okay with that.
Now I'm not saying that an affair is right. There is never any justification for that however I do know that it takes two to tango so they say. A marriage doesn't just breakdown on it's own.
So back to these 180's - what are they?
Also - I'm a big fan of IC to address childhood issues. Dealing with self only makes one better at relationships.
Reached out to a new IC today. Really need to talk to someone.
My W comes home from work today and announces that she is taking a trip to Cancun next April for a retreat with one of her workout groups. I asked if she planned on going by herself and she responds, “yeah, what’s wrong with that”. I just looked at her and said, “nothing, I’m sure you’ll have a good time”. I am seething, I would never consider going to a resort like that without her and of course I wonder if she will actually be alone. Just this month she went away for the weekend claiming that she needed time alone. I am 85% certain that the OW was with her. I have no proof but she was just acting weird each time she phoned me.
I think the temptation you are going to have right now is to set a deal breaker boundary.. because of the pain you are experiencing. A "Either she's out or I'm out" mentality. I want to caution you and advise against this unless you are 100% okay with the possibility of losing your marriage. Because there is a good chance your w won't come back and you will have to be okay with that
You are absolutely on point. This is exactly the sentiment I am grappling with. I can’t fathom losing my wife but I also can’t continue living like this. I definitely feel like I am at a crossroad.
You are correct, the marriage did not breakdown on its own. Prior to the A we were in MC addressing our issues. I thought we were making significant progress then I get blindsided with the A.
My immediate 180 - Stop the R talks. Stop reaching out to her looking for her attention and affection. Dressing up to make myself feel more attractive (been working from home for months and no need to wear anything but sweats). GAL - I have been taking more drives over the past month just to get away. Start going back to the gym.
You're T sounds just awful. Making a bad situation, worse. Reminds me of mine. I can imagine it was a new level of frustrating talking about the affair in the first session you brought it up. You're not alone. I got W to go to one session with me and when I brought up the affair, my W brought up my reaction of when I found out which was me saying it wouldve been easier to have her not come home and me finding out...and the T told her it was awful. They then talked about something else and the light was away from the affair.
You're in the middle of the worst manipulation and gaslighting you'll see and its not easy. Time is a gift that'll help you no matter what if you put the time to good use.
Boundaries by Henry Cloud is a good book on boundaries.
You dont have to immediately do anything. Take the pressure off yourself and figure out what you want to do. Dont tell her what it is, just do it once you know.
Any changes you make must be ones you want. You may be clouded for awhile and convince yourself to change on something that she wanted, not you.
She's going through her own issues and its not anything you can change. You can change you and she may like that new you or not. You may change and not want the old her. Thats ok too. Some people get through infidelity and some cant. Decide if you can, and take your time deciding.
Hi Core. Thank you for the response. Yes, I feel like our therapist helped put the last nail into our coffin. We had been in MC for over a year when I brought them definitive proof of the affair. My wife was adamant that it wasn’t physical. She only admitted to acting inappropriately, getting caught up emotionally and going a bit too far. She never defined was a “ bit too far” entailed. The T allowed her to leave it at that. No discussion about all the lies to me at home or during therapy, no discussion of the impact on our relationship, it was all about me accepting that my W made a mistake and forgiving. It also included accepting the fact that my W insisted on remaining friends with the OW.
When I refused to do a any of these things without an honest accounting of my W actions the T started focusing on me being depressed and unable to move on. It seemed that every sessions afterwards was centered on me getting beyond my depression and suggesting I go on medication. I finally gave up and quit therapy.
Since then my W and I have drifted further apart. She brought up S and possible D this weekend. I am a mess. Can’t sleep. It is almost 4:00 AM and I am wide awake lying on the couch at the moment. I developed an ulcer sometime last year right in the middle of all of this and it has been acting up the past few days. Started taking my medication again 2 days ago. I thought it was healed.
Since then my W and I have drifted further apart. She brought up S and possible D this weekend. I am a mess. Can’t sleep. It is almost 4:00 AM and I am wide awake lying on the couch at the moment. I developed an ulcer sometime last year right in the middle of all of this and it has been acting up the past few days. Started taking my medication again 2 days ago. I thought it was healed.
Please take care of your self - stress is huge during this time and it will make anything that is wrong with you much worse.
Sleep, eat and try to breathe.
Look into some over the counter things that can relieve stress.
I personally took something called rescue remedy.
Mar,
Your counselor sounds so much like mine. The T and my W both stated my anxiety was the main problem. Now yes it certainly was a problem and it was MY main problem but it wasnt the only one. If I fixed the anxiety or if you didn't have any in the first place, we don't know if things would be any different. The focus shifted to me every session. I left unheard and W left validated and progressively worse.
We know your pain all to well. I'm almost a year in and couldn't sleep last night as well. First night in awhile though. You'll hear 100 times that it gets better. It does, really slowly. Exercise was huge for me, along with IC, CBD oil, these forums and a couple close contacts. The same may help you as well. To say this is hard is an understatement. Your W had the opportunity to slowly disengage from the M while you got hit all at once.
The hard truth and one many of us still face whether reconciled or not, is lack of accountability in the WW/WAS. A heart felt apology, acknowledgement would feel wonderful. We often won't see it.
You'll get through this. Keep coming to the board as you need it.
Core,
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the support. I just began reading your sitch. It is crazy how so many WW/Was behave the same. Sending you all my best.
I think my W will ultimately choose to end our M. I know she is conflicted because she fundamentally does not believe in D. I think that is the only reason our S hasn’t happened yet. Not because she wants to stay in this marriage but because the idea of D is contrary to her core values. She is totally distant and disconnected. I really did all the wrong things, pushing, begging, pleading, pressuring. I know I ultimately pushed her further away.
It is crazy how so many WW/Was behave the same.
Indeed. "The script" is real. It's incredible how similar so many of these stories are.
I think my W will ultimately choose to end our M. I know she is conflicted because she fundamentally does not believe in D. I think that is the only reason our S hasn’t happened yet. Not because she wants to stay in this marriage but because the idea of D is contrary to her core values. She is totally distant and disconnected.
Could be, but maybe not. I think my W will go through with the divorce as well, but neither of us know for certain what will happen.
I really did all the wrong things, pushing, begging, pleading, pressuring. I know I ultimately pushed her further away.
Don't blame yourself for doing those things! You did them out of a desire to save your marriage with the best of intentions. All you can do now is use the knowledge and insight you've gained here and other places to make the best decisions going forward.
Bl,
Thank you for the response. I have been blaming myself. I believe if I had found this group before I confronted her with the evidence of the A. Things would be much different now. I had her attention when I left but returned too quickly hoping that we would resolve it all in MC. That totally backfired. I should have never come back until she expressed remorse and agreed to end all contact with OW.
A year later and we are worse off now.
Mar,
You did what society programs us to do and what you thought was right. We can all go back and pinpoint things we could've done differently. You can probably go back even further and say "I shouldve gave in here, stopped a fight there, went on another vacation". Maybe in both our sitches a better T would've fixed things. The possibilities are endless. What we know is you made commitments and vows, and are honoring them. She chose to leave and has something broken in her which was there before you and if things progress they will be there after you until/if she self reflects and gets help.
We can all beat ourselves up but it doesnt help. We'll all go through the phase(s) of doing it but please dont stay in that mindset too long. It helps to go back and reflect so you can change however blaming yourself for both her mistakes and your own doesnt help. You like every other person made mistakes and many of which shouldn't be marriage ending. She has lied and manipulated quite a bit in the last year and it can be easy to be convinced that you're in the wrong. Take on you mistakes, learn from them, work on forgiving yourself and dont take on her blame. Leave that for her.
One day at a time!
Core,
THANK YOU!! I needed to hear that.
Mar, I've wanted to write for the past few days, but kept backing off. The truth is I'm not really here on the boards much anymore, and I hate to be only semi-present.
I wanted to say hi, as another lesbian on the boards. There are not many of us. I'm glad you found Wonka's threads. They were the best I found in all the history and helped me immensely. I think I read every one. The tone of the board has changed over the years and I always appreciated Wonka's very balanced perspective, and nuanced approach to each individual scenario. I think that is important to remember: there is a script, there are general guidelines and phrases you will hear repeated over and over. But each situation is nuanced, and you know it best. It's a tough balance between knowing your own sitch the best, and not falling into the "oh no, MY sitch is WAY different than anyone else" head-in-the-sand approach.
I like what Core wrote to you. Do not beat yourself up over what you "should" have done. We all make decisions based on the information we had at the time. Your perspective has changed, but I don't think anything you did was "wrong". You just act differently going forward with your new information.
Your W has gaslighted you. Don't feel guilt over your own actions just because she made you feel like you were the crazy one. Gently bring your mind back every time you start feeling like it was all your fault. I always liked reminding myself that "I'll take my 50% of the blame, and leave the other 50% to her". It helped me.
If I might suggest a path forward: go slow. Take your time, do not make rash decisions or blanket statements. Try to do more listening than talking. This has two benefits. 1) In the event you both decide down the road to reconcile, listening is the best path there. But more immediately 2) Listening gives you insight. With her making YOU feel like you are crazy you should pause before trusting any of her decisions. If it turns ugly (and I truly hope it does not) you are best armed with information on things she says/offers. Speaking less right now might be your best way to protect yourself both emotionally and later legally.
You state you have children. Be there for them. Show up for yourself. Lean in to whatever brings you comfort, and work on accepting that you won't have any final answers for a very, very long time. You embrace the chaos for now, and embrace the unknown. Every time you look ahead and see two paths a mysterious third option will show itself that you didn't see coming.
I wish you small moments of peace in all of this. You are so strong.
Yail,
The tone of the board has changed over the years
Would you please elaborate? I've seen other posters allude to the change as well and wonder what it used to sound like vs. what it does now and if one approach was more effective than another.
Yail,
I appreciate you taking the time to respond. Your post felt like a warm embrace definitely coming from the heart. I am trying to get my emotions in check and see this entire sitch from a more logical perspective. I don’t think my wife knows what she wants. One minute she is telling me she wants a S/D and the next she is taking her IC advice and not wanting to rush into any decision. This week she has made an effort to make conversation in the evenings but very emotionally detached and distant. I personally think she is wrestling with her core belief against D and her relationship with the OW.
I have made it clear that I will not share her in any sense of the word and it is all or nothing as far as our MR goes. She continues to claim that OW is just a friend and she will not end the friendship. This is where we are at an impasse.
Trying to figure out how to give her space so that she can make a decision one way or the other but she cannot continue to be in this M and eat her cake too. All of your advice sounds spot on.
Our D is 24 still living at home but just starting her professional career. Just earned her Masters and beginning her full time job. So we were just on the cusp of being empty nesters.
I really need to GAL as per the advice on here. I know you mentioned you are not around much but I would really appreciate a continued dialogue with you. I just began reading your story today.
hi Mar,
I'm so sorry this is happening. Know that there is a wonderful community here of folks who have gone through and are currently going through really similar situations.
I want to second what others have said about taking care of yourself physically and mentally. Do whatever you have to do to carve out time for sleep and self-care. My IC has referred to it as going into power-saver mode-- use what energy you have first and foremost to take care of yourself and just don't worry about the other stuff right now. Don't beat yourself up for anything you might have said or done in the past. None of that matters. Let it go and worry about today-- that is enough, don't you think?
I also want to add my voice as well to calling out the gaslighting and how truly horrible this therapist is. Please, do not listen to any of that garbage. As Yail says (Yail is very, very wise) trust yourself and listen to your gut.
I also have an ambivalent cake-eater in the house with lots of flip-flopping over the past nine months... it hasn't been fun. (We're currently on R attempt #3, and it has taken a long time for my H to really understand if we want our M to work, then she has got to be out of our lives forever.)
I would say take the time you need to know in your heart what you want. Don't draw a line or make an ultimatum you aren't ready to enforce-- that has been a hard one for me. I've held for the longest time that I won't work on a M with a third party in the picture at all, but I haven't been ready to say I won't BE in an M and kick him out if he can't let go of the AP (so far). However, I've come a long way and am getting to a place where I'm authentically OK being on my own. Having a harder time wrapping my head around what is best for the kids, but I know I could do it if I need to.
Today she tells me, the T told her not to jump into a separation or even begin contemplating a divorce until we sincerely attempt to transition our R into something new if possible.
Wondering what might be meant by this? My H went through a phase of "maybe this is just the next evolution of our relationship" (meaning, we are best friends and co-parents while he is living with AP)... is this where she's headed here? I ended up setting a boundary of not not listening anymore to his fantasy scenarios or how he feels about her, which has really helped me.
Hang in there, Mar. You've got this. My #1 piece of advice is self-care, right now.
Hi Mar,
Welcome aboard this crazy train. Sorry you have to go through this process. I am a better person having gone through it. I believe everything is an opportunity for personal growth. Grab this opportunity by the horns and focus all your energy on you. We can't control other people, but we can control (and change) how we interact and respond to them.
Boundaries are to protect you. Boundaries are to protect the relationship. Multiple boundaries have been crossed by your W. It is your job to enforce your boundary to protect yourself. This is done through actions, not words. To many people focus on trying to state their boundaries. Actions speak louder than words.
"This is not working for me" should be your guiding thought. She needs to jump through hoops to get you back. She needs to FEEL the fear of loosing you. With OW involved, that feeling might not come. Missing you might be the feeling that draws her back to you. Again, we can't control other people.
In any case, get your mojo back. Reinvent yourself. You deserve better than this. All is fair in love and war and if you want to attract W back, learning new skills in seduction will help.
Anyway, I hope you get the support you need here and I will follow your thread. Work has picked up for me so I am not here as much as I would like, but will post when I can.
R2C
Mar, I am so sorry you are here. I have so many similarities in my situation that make me deeply empathetic to your position right now.
You have received some golden advice from some of the wisest voices on this forum. I don't have much to add, but wanted to re-iterate how damaging gaslighting can be to your mental health. In hindsight, I wish I had spent less time analyzing what was happening in my spouse's head and spent more time focusing on what was happening to my own head. Writing here more often with specific instances would have been helpful to me (because other's can often see gaslighting before we can see it ourselves). As would identifying it with my IC and spending some time each session debunking the lies (which I didn't do but wish I did).
Hang in there and keep posting.
May, RTC and Sage that you so much for the support and encouraging words. My W and I had a huge blowup yesterday and like so many others on here, I got the I love you but am not in love with you anymore. After 21 years together she emphatically said that she doesn't want our marriage anymore. Wants us to definitively separate. So now, I have a decision to make, begin living separate lives in the same home or just get my affairs in order and leave.
I love my W with all of my heart and soul but I am done begging her to love me back. I really don't think the consequences of her actions are going to hit her unless I leave. I think she will feel it most acutely during the holidays.
To all the LBS, if you had the option to stay or go when you first had your BD's what would you have done? I am open to all advice and opinions.
I got the I love you but am not in love with you anymore. After 21 years together she emphatically said that she doesn't want our marriage anymore. Wants us to definitively separate. So now, I have a decision to make, begin living separate lives in the same home or just get my affairs in order and leave.
Its like an awful script for them and a horrible reaction for the LBS. We all follow these patterns.
I love my W with all of my heart and soul but I am done begging her to love me back. I really don't think the consequences of her actions are going to hit her unless I leave. I think she will feel it most acutely during the holidays.
She may and please be prepared that she may not. You want the consequences to hit her... many of us want justice and the WW to come to their senses. Please just make sure the thinking doesnt take you down the dark path of vengence
To all the LBS, if you had the option to stay or go when you first had your BD's what would you have done? I am open to all advice and opinions.
I've heard it both ways. Those that got the BD and had their spouse leave instantly thought it was god awful and wanted more time. Those that had more time and lived together like myself have the god awful IHS and the lovely time of watching your relationship die and your own love wither. I personally think my best chance for my M wouldve been to move out or move on right away but I have zero way to determine that. Living in the same house and talking about D and separating stuff then sitting together for dinner and playing with the kids together hurts like sitting 4 inches away from a fire. M have healed both ways and many have ended. That leaves us with....what is best for you?
I've heard it both ways. Those that got the BD and had their spouse leave instantly thought it was god awful and wanted more time. Those that had more time and lived together like myself have the god awful IHS and the lovely time of watching your relationship die and your own love wither. I personally think my best chance for my M wouldve been to move out or move on right away but I have zero way to determine that. Living in the same house and talking about D and separating stuff then sitting together for dinner and playing with the kids together hurts like sitting 4 inches away from a fire. M have healed both ways and many have ended. That leaves us with....what is best for you?
Core, for the past two weeks she has been incredibly distant and still wants to sit and have dinner together. It hurts like hell and I do not believe that I can emotionally handle being in this limbo. She keeps saying that we need to rebuild a friendship. Nothing about rebuilding our M. I think you were the one that commented about not understanding the need for Lesbians to remain friends after the end of their relationships, I think this is what she is hoping for.
I can't do it. I've read several posts on here about the emotional torture the LBS goes through during this limbo phase. I do not want to subject myself to that. But how do I muster the strength to walk away when it is the last thing in the world that I want.
HI Mar252,
I am sorry that you are dealing with this.
I am a LBS living with IHS. My H lives in our D25 bedroom, and now that she has moved back, she lives in the living room. H gave me the first BD last May 2019 and within a week, left to work out of the country for 3 months. At that time, our D was still at Grad school, so I really had a mini S. During that time he was gone, I discovered OW and H and I did not have any communication at all. I joined a gym and did my own thing with my friends.
Once he returned, it was like the BD just happened. We had to learn to navigate being in the same home, I had gotten used to it being just me and I am sure he got used to living like a teen on vacation for 3 months. He left for "work" at Thanksgiving and New Years. Christmas he stayed and was very nice to my family. I could tell his trip in January was a last ditch effort to try and continue with the OW.
He has since gotten another OW in the other country and this past July he said he wants a D and wants me to stay in the home. That was July. It is now October. There has been no further movement one way or another. Limbo has been hard. Weekends are the worst with the pandemic. Where I would usually head to a Dodger game with my friends or plan some concerts, I am at home. I honestly don't know how it would be if he did leave. I think part of that is that he hangs out here in the home when not at work for 85% of the time. He seems to leave to eat and visit his uncle or walk with his friends.
But how do I muster the strength to walk away when it is the last thing in the world that I want. [/quote]
[quote=Mar252]
I hope I am quoting this passage correctly. Just muster enough to get through each day. That's all the energy you need. Go to work if you work, make plans to do what you have wanted to. Cook what you want, whatever it is, do it for you. I have told myself, if H found OW here and was out all night I might be more inclined to ask him to leave. If that is your situation, then think about the boundaries you will not cross.
It is weird, but being "alone" in the home (since he lives in another room most days) I have a new little routine for me. I actually have more time for me and I am learning things for ME. Although, there is much I would like to share with H, I have learned to enjoy it just me. If we get to R one day, i will have a lot to share!
It can be hard, but as others have pointed out here, we are given time. Use it wisely.
(((Mar252)))
PLC
Core, for the past two weeks she has been incredibly distant and still wants to sit and have dinner together. It hurts like hell and I do not believe that I can emotionally handle being in this limbo. She keeps saying that we need to rebuild a friendship. Nothing about rebuilding our M. I think you were the one that commented about not understanding the need for Lesbians to remain friends after the end of their relationships, I think this is what she is hoping for.
As a kid, I imagined hell as burning fire. If there is a hell, its probably more like the emotional hell you, I and the others go through in our sitches. The saying goes something like the WW wants their cake and to eat it too. They are living in fantasy. You may know this already and it hurts to hear and it hurts to tell you that she has a Plan A (OW). She wants to hang on to Plan B (you) just in case. You will be strung along, chasing breadcrumbs. Now no matter what, you want to be Plan A, for yourself. Whether she ever comes around or not, become Plan A for yourself.
I can't do it. I've read several posts on here about the emotional torture the LBS goes through during this limbo phase. I do not want to subject myself to that. But how do I muster the strength to walk away when it is the last thing in the world that I want.
Imagine you're in the military, alone in the woods, surrounded by opposing forces. Do you want to be captured and tortured? Will you fight your way out, escape or call in for support? You don't know it but you have the strength. It may be hard to find. Don't do it alone, get support. Here, IC, one or two close contacts. You can escape the woods with support. Maybe the opposition surrenders.
This may very likely be the hardest thing you ever do. Dont do it alone. We'll stretch you here if youre willing to face your feelings and yourself.
As an internet stranger, I care about you getting through this and becoming stronger, I'm sure those close to you want that even more. Feel the pain, feel the fear, talk through it, know youre not alone and persevere.
PLC, Core thank you.
I just posted this on another thread - Primarily, I am certain that I do not want to be separated from my wife and remain in the same household. I can't and won't be able to emotionally handle it. I am at the stage where I am crying daily. Have had some serious breakdowns in the shower and barely sleep. The lack of sleep is beginning to effect me physically. In my head, I've given myself a month to get my affairs in order and move out. I know I do not want to be here for Thanksgiving. Her brother had a baby 8 months ago and lives in another country. His wife is coming to spend Thanksgiving with us so that we can meet the baby for the first time. We have been looking forward to this for a couple of months now. Holidays have always been a huge family event. I can't sit here and pretend .
My W and I had a huge blowup yesterday and like so many others on here, I got the I love you but am not in love with you anymore. After 21 years together she emphatically said that she doesn't want our marriage anymore. Wants us to definitively separate. So now, I have a decision to make, begin living separate lives in the same home or just get my affairs in order and leave.
Your wife is all over the place. One week she wants to not separate. The next week she does. Unfortunately her emotional swing is quite par for the course. That is why you must do your best to ground yourself in her storm. Detach, GAL, think what's really good for you.
I love my W with all of my heart and soul but I am done begging her to love me back. I really don't think the consequences of her actions are going to hit her unless I leave. I think she will feel it most acutely during the holidays.
Then stop begging. Follow the rules as best you can. I totally second others warning with "having life teach her things" Whilst this is absolutely true - it's not a healthy way to set boundaries. You set them for you.. based off your needs.
To all the LBS, if you had the option to stay or go when you first had your BD's what would you have done? I am open to all advice and opinions.
I definitely agree with Yail that things have changed on this board. One thing I have noticed changed is from the push to stay in the home to a push to physically separate. I don't think neither is bad, The main goal being is about creating an environment that we can be our best self in. That's different for every person. You have to decide what's best for you.
At the same time - it's important to protect yourself. The house technically belongs to your wife's family correct? That changes things from what rights you have to stay verses her right to kick you out. Be prepared for the worst whilst hoping for the best.
Also what's the gameplan with your kiddo? Do you have equal rights as parents? If you leave the house - how does it affect him/her?
To all the LBS, if you had the option to stay or go when you first had your BD's what would you have done? I am open to all advice and opinions.
My XW and I had a relatively short tension period before she definitively said she wanted a D, and I didn't fight it. Once about a month later she said to me, "But you seem to be moving on..." and I responded (I wish more emphatically) with, "What was my response supposed to be when you said you wanted a divorce?".
For me, this was the best move. To separate, to have no contact aside from brief and polite (no sarcasm, no snippiness - truly) written communication on logistics. I think when looking at the whole picture I healed faster and more fully. I am two years from BD and I am living my life. In a way I never have before, with fresh eyes and renewed energy.
But more than trying to hurry-up some healing process, I don't have anger towards her. Occasional frustration or very, very mild anger perhaps when I think of the A. That one hurts. But because I removed myself from the situation fully I think I have fewer of those painful memories. What I don't know can't hurt me. I assume she moved in with the OW (I don't know). I assume they are partnered (I don't know). I assume she is okay with her decision (I don't know). But the "I don't know" is a h*** of a lot easier than the images of a few graphic, terrible memories that I DID know. Does that make sense?
I'm almost at a point of understanding with my W. Almost. I see things now that I did not see 2 years ago. Things about myself, things about her, things about our dynamic together. I understand her perspective a bit having never had these conversations with her. It sounds weird, and it's hard to describe. I am 100% NOT expecting to ever have my XW reach out to me again in search of reconciliation. Truly. But if it did happen, I could entertain the thought without vengeance, without spite, and also without desperation. I think of our time together with love and fondly. But I think it's because once she started to hurt me I got the F out.
I did not take marriage lightly. I was prepared to fight. But you both have to be moving in the same direction. I don't know if leaving and taking her at her word is the best for you, but I can say that it was for me. You need to truly sit with it and turn off the noise and hear what your own soul is telling you to do without guilt and without societal pressure moving you either way. One of the benefits of being gay and fighting subtle or overt disapproval is that we learn very quickly how to navigate our own lives and dismissing those who don't believe in us.
One thing I have noticed changed is from the push to stay in the home to a push to physically separate. I don't think neither is bad, The main goal being is about creating an environment that we can be our best self in. That's different for every person. You have to decide what's best for you.
At the same time - it's important to protect yourself. The house technically belongs to your wife's family correct? That changes things from what rights you have to stay verses her right to kick you out. Be prepared for the worst whilst hoping for the best.
Also what's the gameplan with your kiddo? Do you have equal rights as parents? If you leave the house - how does it affect him/her?
Valesca, I am on a crazy emotional roller coaster. Over the past couple of weeks my W has become incredibly distant. All our normal routines have stopped. She leaves for work at 8:30 Am then goes to gym and doesn't get home until 7:30 PM. She has dinner and goes to bed. All phones calls have stopped unless it has something to do with the house. We have been in the middle of renovations and I work from home all day so am the one dealing with contractors.
The house does belong to her family, although we are married I have no rights to it. She has told me that she has no intentions of asking me to leave. She knows I can't afford anything on my own. I lost my full time job because of COVID. Only working part time at the moment. And I also think she is wrestling with guilt. No idea how long this would last.
I really am trying to take it one day at a time and decide what I want to do. I do know that I will not be able to emotionally tolerate being here for too long. It just hurts too much. My only option is to go to my families home which is out of the country. Have seriously debated just buying a plane ticket and going.
Our D24 is grown. She still lives at home and would stay. My W is her biological mother, I adopted her as a young child.
I did not take marriage lightly. I was prepared to fight. But you both have to be moving in the same direction. I don't know if leaving and taking her at her word is the best for you, but I can say that it was for me. You need to truly sit with it and turn off the noise and hear what your own soul is telling you to do without guilt and without societal pressure moving you either way. One of the benefits of being gay and fighting subtle or overt disapproval is that we learn very quickly how to navigate our own lives and dismissing those who don't believe in us.
Yail, thank you for the advice. I really am leaning towards your approach. She and I have spent 21 years of our lives together. When me married, as far as I was concerned, it was forever. We have both made mistakes throughout our relationship and have hurt each other but have always managed to stick it out. Our attempt at MC was an effort to overcome past mistakes and learn to positively move forward. I sincerely believed we were making great progress after a year of MC then the OW appeared. The past year has been an absolute mess and she actually told me on Saturday that she is no longer in love with me. I am desperately trying to muster the strength and courage to leave. If she truely doesn't want me or want to save this marriage then I have no reason to stay.
I have a decision to make, begin living separate lives in the same home or just get my affairs in order and leave. ...To all the LBS, if you had the option to stay or go when you first had your BD's what would you have done? I am open to all advice and opinions.
Two sides of a coin. Both sides have worked for some. I lean toward this side:
"I do not share my lady with other men."
"I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me"
"Is it better to leave and have her miss you, or stay and resent you?"
The other side may have positive results if there is not a third person in the picture and/or the resentment and blame and unhappiness has not crossed some threshold. Easier to show your changes in behavior.
Normally we advise to stay in the marital home as well as the master bedroom. The other person has to do the work. If I recall correctly, the house is not in your name, it is in hers. Correct me if I am wrong. Sorry but sitch do get blurry in my mind. I would seek legal advise about this before making any decisions.
Normally we advise to stay in the marital home as well as the master bedroom. The other person has to do the work. If I recall correctly, the house is not in your name, it is in hers. Correct me if I am wrong. Sorry but sitch do get blurry in my mind. I would seek legal advise about this before making any decisions.
R2C, the home belong to my W and her brother. It was originally her mother's and we sold our home and took this one over when her mother passed away 6 years ago. It was a sound financial decision at the time. So I do not have any rights to it.
I do agree with you. I will not share and as far as the M is concerned it is all or nothing. I am contemplating leaving the MBR tonight. We have always slept wrapped up in each other's arms or some body part touching throughout the night. She hasn't touched me in two weeks. She'll turn towards me in the middle of the night and instead of putting her arm around me, as usual, she will now tuck it under my pillow, as if trying to keep herself from touching me. It is killing me. I literally slept on the edge of the bed last night just to keep myself as far away from her as possible. I need to figure out how to get a good night sleep again.
My only option is the futon in my office (spare bedroom), that is incredibly lumpy and uncomfortable, but I can't stand lying in bed next to her all night and not being touched.
Hi Mar,
A couple quick thoughts-- first, definitely talk to a lawyer. You can usually get a free consultation. Someone here suggesting scheduling free consults with the top three divorce lawyers in town, because once they've talked to you, even if you don't end up working with them, your W can't hire them. For me, having those conversations really helped ease a lot of my financial fears around D, and at least let me understand my rights. For instance, even though the house is your W's property as an inheritance, depending on the laws of your state you may very well have rights to half of the equity it gained since her mom passed. In any case, getting a sense of what your finances will look like if you S or D will help. Knowledge is power. If you decide to MO, this way you'll know what you can afford and be in a better position to map out your options.
Second, I can't stress enough how important sleep is, and I feel like figuring out how to get a good night's sleep is a critical first step to helping you figure out your path forward. A few ideas-- if you don't want to leave the MBR, go to bed really early so you can get to sleep before she gets there. Try OTC sleeping pills, a warm bath, melatonin, a glass of wine or 5-HTP (5-HTP has helped me a ton with sleep and also mood.) Tell her you're really uncomfortable sleeping in the same bed as her given what is going on and ask her to move to the office. (Hey, maybe she'll say no, but she's your W and no matter who the house belongs to, she's the one who is having an A and she should have enough respect for you to let you sleep in peace.) Move to the office yourself but go get a foam mattress topper or something to help you sleep a bit better. Go to a hotel for a couple of nights and order room service and take baths and SLEEP.
(((Mar)))
May,
Thank you for all the practical advice. It was good to hear some sound reasoning. I am just not thinking straight at the moment. I am emotionally and physically exhausted. I did get about 5.5 hours of sleep last
night which is the most I’ve gotten in almost 3 weeks. Just had a cup of tea and feeling a bit better this morning.
Not working today, maybe I’ll get dressed and go get my nails done this afternoon. Need to get my head cleared.
May, again thank you!
hi Mar,
So glad to be of help... and FWIW, a few more little thoughts (haha I can't help myself!!)
Self-care-- I feel like before all this happened I defined self-care as a spa day-- massage, facial, pedicure kind of thing. Now I'm able to take self-care in the smallest of doses-- take out instead of making dinner if I don't feel like it (extra points to get something I really love that my H doesn't care for because... I'm focusing on myself right now), reading a fluffy beach novel, a playlist of music I love on the stereo, an extra long shower, ten deep breaths with my eyes closed when I start to feel overwhelmed. I know that there are other things that really helped me out earlier in my sitch, like yoga, and for whatever reason right now I haven't been able to get myself to start practicing again. So for now I'm just focusing on the little things and that is OK.
A grief counselor told me once about using tactile comforts when you're really having a hard time-- looking for things that feel, smell, taste good and comforting to you. So when you say you're drinking a cup of tea, I imagine you wrapping your hands around a steaming mug, feeling the warmth in your hands, smelling the tea, sipping it, just concentrating all your senses on the tea. Wrapping yourself up in a fuzzy blanket. Buying your favorite flowers and smelling them. Anything small you can do to feed your soul when things are so crazy and difficult.
I'm so glad you got a bit more sleep last night. Hope it is the start of a trend!!
xx May
May,
I am trying with the self care. I have been able to dull my emotions a bit and turn off the constant self talk in my head. Although, I am still tearing up daily whenever a random thought pops appears. Have also been able to get some sleep the past couple of nights. My W continues to be distant. I try not to initiate any conversation. I do respond when she speaks to me. All talks revolve around the house and work. She did ask about my father (cronically ill with Parkinson's) last night for the first time in the past two weeks. I am working on detachment.
I have a doctor's appointment on Oct 29 that I do not want to miss but I am leaning towards leaving afterwards. Will go to my families home. We'll see what happens over the course of the next couple of weeks. Have already started to look at plane tickets. If my W has any love left for me, I don't think it is going to hit her unless I am gone.
I really don't want to be here for Thanksgiving would rather spend it with my family. She is going to have a tough time explaining to her family why I am not here but I'm sure she will just tell them that my dad is not doing well and I had to go see him.
Forgot to mention, last night my W asked me to take a look at some test results she had received. While I was holding her phone, reading the results, a text message came in from the OW. I calmly handed her the phone back and just walked away. I was very proud of myself.
OMG, I think my wife is going through MLC. Just spent a couple of hours reading posts on that thread and it fits her to a tee.
4. Of course one of the most successful ways to drive them crazy may only be used when you have earned the MLC Black Belt. Go to marriage counselling for months, let them pour out their soul to you and the counsellor and let them believe they are actually accomplishing something. Then arrange things so the spouse finds you in your own home with OP. This will accomplish two things: a. She will finally have to understand how lucky you are to have found your "soul mate" and b. She will be doubly betrayed because she thought you were actually working on the marriage.
Found here -
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=960393&page=1This quote was especially a 2x4. She invited the OP to our home for a barbecue. I found out about the A later that night while overhearing a telephone conversation between the two. We had been in MC for over a year and sincerely believed we were "accomplishing something"
Mar, your response on the phone text was perfect. Good job on that one. Sometimes not speaking is the best course of action.
It sounds like you are settled on returning to your home country, and I am glad you have a plan. I think you having a plan is good for you.
I too questioned whether my XW was having a MLC. I read all about it, and at the time it did help me a bit because I found people who felt the same things I felt, and experienced the same process of separation. But just remember - whether or not she is having a MLC doesn't change much. It's just a bit of back story as to some possible "whys", but it doesn't change her mind or actions. So don't it impact any of your decisions - you should move forward in the healthiest way you can identify. I think you are trying to do that.
Mar, you did great with the phone situation. It must have hurt like heck, but you did the right thing.
I have been wanting to chime in on an earlier post you did where you considered going to your home country. I have often thought that if I didn’t have young children at home, I would have gone on a walkabout or sabbatical or visit overseas friends for a few months and let my head clear and the dust settle in my situation. There is something to be said for just stepping out of the chaos and pain for a period of time. The gift of working from home is that you can take work anywhere right now, so carpe diem. And it allows for some space for you to protect your heart from W’s behavior.
I am one of those people who could not tolerate an IHS; the daily rejection and pain was too much for me to bear. I am barely able to stand this real S we are currently in. So I completely relate to you not wanting to continue living together right now. Maybe leaving for a set period of time could allow you the space to figure out your next move without further emotional damage; but also buy you time from having to make some big decisions (who lives where, splitting of assets etc) under emotional duress.
Your W could be in the midst of an MLC. If so, (and even if not), her A is on her timeline, not yours. So stepping out of the way might allow their flame to burn out faster, or at least for some resolution to unfold quicker than if you are in the picture. Some affairs are attractions of ‘otherness’ and ‘illicitness’; if you take away their shield of secrecy (by removing yourself), it may eliminate the intrigue.
Either way, do what is best for YOU right now. I keep having to tell myself that only I can protect me, H isn’t going to Protect me now, even if he used to in the past.
(((Mar)))
Yail & Sage,
I really appreciate the support. I do need to take care of myself and probably will buy that plane ticket but my perspective has changed a bit since yesterday. I spent hours reading posts on the MLC thread and it has become clearer that this is what my W is experiencing. She had a hysterectomy 2.5 years ago and I think that was the catalyst. All of her behaviors over the past 2 years align with MLC actions. Then again, I could just be searching for the perfect answer to my ever present "why".
Her behaviors and reactions are a rollercoaster. For example, this morning she was sitting in the kitchen and I went over to her and said, "good morning" and kissed her on the forehead and just walked away. I have been trying my damndest to DB. I went back to the MBR, laid in bed and turned the news on.
10 minutes later she comes and sits on the bed besides me with a very pained look on her face and asks, "what is going on with you". My response, "I'm just trying to figure out how to do this". She starts a R conversation. I tried to validate as mush as possible. The gist of the conversation, she does not want a divorce but knows that our marriage is over. She doesn't know if she could ever give me the things I want, ie love, affection, trust, intimacy, sex, etc. I offered to leave for a while to give her space and she got angry. Told me she wasn't asking me to leave my home. I said I knew she wasn't asking I was offering. She said a couple of more things and I then asked her to tell me what she wanted. Big mistake, she yelled at me "don't ask me what I want". She caught herself and apologized for yelling. But it was the end of the conversation.
She really has no idea what she wants and I think she has a supreme emotional battle raging within. She does realize that something internally is not right but she can't overcome it. She went to a hormone specialist a couple of weeks ago and those were the test results we were looking at the other day. Some of her numbers were way off. I pray it's just some major hormonal imbalance that can be fixed.
I think I need to stay and just be her Lighthouse. I do need to do some serious GAL but difficult with COVID and working from home. My area is talking about a resurgence and considering pulling back on recent openings. Maybe I will do a weekend getaway to my BF out of state. By the way, my BF is the only one that knows about my current sitch.
Hi Mar,
I understand how confusing it is to see someone you love and know so well struggling so much. I'm sure she does have a supreme emotional battle raging within. I think it would be a great idea to get away for a weekend with your BF-- a little break from all of this can only be helpful.
A little 2x4 though... kissing her on the forehead and R talks are pressure and I think it would really be best if you try to avoid those at all costs. From what you describe, I can't really agree that her behaviors and reactions are a roller coaster... to me, you kissing her on the forehead given everything that is going on is super confusing and I am not surprised that she asked you what is going on. If I were you, I would absolutely cut any behavior of my own out that could be interpreted as applying pressure. If you aren't sure if it is pressure, then don't do it.
Think about it like this.. you kiss her on the forehead. She doesn't feel what she thinks she is supposed to feel when her W does that (love, affection, etc). Instead, she probably feels guilty and bad for not feeling what she's supposed to feel, and then that sparks an R talk where she states to you she doesn't think she can ever feel the way you want her to feel. Those probably aren't thoughts you want going through her mind at this point. Also, every time she says out loud she doesn't love you like that it reinforces it for her. (Believe me, this is something I have learned the hard way.)
So--- be sure that you aren't doing anything that applies pressure and pushes her further away. No kissing, no hugging, no affectionate touches. No saying ILY. Be cool and detached. Give her space and use the space you've gained to GAL.
(((Mar)))
Think about it like this.. you kiss her on the forehead. She doesn't feel what she thinks she is supposed to feel when her W does that (love, affection, etc). Instead, she probably feels guilty and bad for not feeling what she's supposed to feel, and then that sparks an R talk where she states to you she doesn't think she can ever feel the way you want her to feel. Those probably aren't thoughts you want going through her mind at this point. Also, every time she says out loud she doesn't love you like that it reinforces it for her. (Believe me, this is something I have learned the hard way.)
So--- be sure that you aren't doing anything that applies pressure and pushes her further away. No kissing, no hugging, no affectionate touches. No saying ILY. Be cool and detached. Give her space and use the space you've gained to GAL.
May, this was a sobering reality check. I never considered it this way. It was 6:30 in the morning, I automatically leaned down and kissed her. At no point did I stop to think how it would make her feel. I considered she was upset because I kissed her and just walked away with no conversation. Your scenario is totally plausible and probably correct.
Thank you for this. I am trying.
Hi Mar,
I don't mean to make you feel badly at all-- I know for me this is the hardest thing I've ever dealt with. (I really, really hope this is the hardest thing I ever have to deal with.) So I totally get it, I've been there too. Broke every DB rule and then someone here told me to just brush myself off and get back on the horse! So here I am, telling you the same.
I think one of the hardest things with DBing is that these behaviors and interactions are totally ingrained. You've literally been doing them for DECADES. It is incredibly difficult to stop. Some of the vets say your S has "fired you" as their wife... I hated that, and I think it is sometimes harder for those of us who have Ss who don't just walk out the door without a backwards look. But it's true. They no longer see us as they once did. The moment they started the A they metaphorically took off their wedding rings and started a new relationship, even though they can't quite let go of us either.
It is hard to live in the same house and DB. It is a choice you make (and one that I've made, so I totally get it) but it means you need to be on all the time, always monitoring your own actions and responses, pasting a smile on your face when you don't feel it, dressing up and getting out of the house even if it means you just drive to the store and eat popcorn in the parking lot with makeup on. Start small and just keep going. You've got this.
M
May,
You did not make me feel badly at all. Please provide all the 2x4 you feel are necessary. Believe me when I tell you that I need them and am appreciative.
It is hard to live in the same house and DB. It is a choice you make (and one that I've made, so I totally get it) but it means you need to be on all the time, always monitoring your own actions and responses, pasting a smile on your face when you don't feel it, dressing up and getting out of the house even if it means you just drive to the store and eat popcorn in the parking lot with makeup on. Start small and just keep going. You've got this.
This literally made me laugh out loud because I did a version of it last Saturday. I bought new clothes a couple of weeks ago including shoes. On Saturday, I put on a whole new outfit, put makeup on (which I never wear on a daily basis), told her I was going out and drove to our local beach. Sat on a bench on the boardwalk, staring at the water and listening to music for 3 hours. Came home, she never commented on my new outfit or asked where I had been. But it did feel good just to get out.
.
I do need to take care of myself and probably will buy that plane ticket but my perspective has changed a bit since yesterday. I spent hours reading posts on the MLC thread and it has become clearer that this is what my W is experiencing. She had a hysterectomy 2.5 years ago and I think that was the catalyst. All of her behaviors over the past 2 years align with MLC actions. Then again, I could just be searching for the perfect answer to my ever present "why".
"searching for the 'why' answer" is a completely normal part of the process. Also - not super helpful - as it continues to put the focus on your W versus you. What is the healthiest for you? Buying that plane ticket or stay home for the holidays?
Her behaviors and reactions are a rollercoaster. For example, this morning she was sitting in the kitchen and I went over to her and said, "good morning" and kissed her on the forehead and just walked away. I have been trying my damndest to DB. I went back to the MBR, laid in bed and turned the news on.
10 minutes later she comes and sits on the bed besides me with a very pained look on her face and asks, "what is going on with you". My response, "I'm just trying to figure out how to do this". She starts a R conversation. I tried to validate as mush as possible. The gist of the conversation, she does not want a divorce but knows that our marriage is over. She doesn't know if she could ever give me the things I want, ie love, affection, trust, intimacy, sex, etc. I offered to leave for a while to give her space and she got angry. Told me she wasn't asking me to leave my home. I said I knew she wasn't asking I was offering. She said a couple of more things and I then asked her to tell me what she wanted. Big mistake, she yelled at me "don't ask me what I want". She caught herself and apologized for yelling. But it was the end of the conversation.
She really has no idea what she wants and I think she has a supreme emotional battle raging within. She does realize that something internally is not right but she can't overcome it. She went to a hormone specialist a couple of weeks ago and those were the test results we were looking at the other day. Some of her numbers were way off. I pray it's just some major hormonal imbalance that can be fixed.
The rollercoaster can be so painful. How do you get off the ride? What do you want Mar? Do you want to be married to someone who can't give intimacy, trust, affection, etc? My guess is probably not. I'm not saying to jump to a D here but I think there are some boundaries you can establish to protect yourself. What do you think those would be?
I think I need to stay and just be her Lighthouse. I do need to do some serious GAL but difficult with COVID and working from home. My area is talking about a resurgence and considering pulling back on recent openings. Maybe I will do a weekend getaway to my BF out of state. By the way, my BF is the only one that knows about my current sitch.
I think the swinging between leaving and going is completely normal. You don't have to make the decision to leave the home today but you can also be a lighthouse that takes care of yourself. What does that look like?
Hi Valeska,
The rollercoaster can be so painful. How do you get off the ride? What do you want Mar? Do you want to be married to someone who can't give intimacy, trust, affection, etc? My guess is probably not. I'm not saying to jump to a D here but I think there are some boundaries you can establish to protect yourself. What do you think those would be?
I am having a tough emotional day today. Sitting here with tears in my eyes at the moment. I want all the things she is telling me that she cannot give. If she looks at me one more time and tells me ILYBIANILWYA, I think I will lose it. I really do need to get off this ride. Looking to go away next weekend to visit my BF out of state. Then I seriously need to consider buying that plane ticket. I sincerely think it would be best.
Hey Mar. Sorry you're having a tough emotional day. Those are really hard. Maybe try to find a way to distance yourself from the ILYB statements. Remind yourself that she is saying those things because they are her FEELINGS at the moment and not necessarily truths. I think our WS convince themselves that they aren't in love anymore and that the feelings are gone forever instead of making the choice to love and work on building those feelings back. It's a cop out and a terribly painful thing to hear as a BS. Getting away will help do you some good. There will still be times when you feel the rush of emotion, panic, and fear, but there will also be times when you don't think about everything going on for a few minutes and your mind is clear. Those are more peaceful moments.
May is 100 percent correct on the kissing her on the forehead 2X4s. (If it helps, that is still a 2X4 for me as well). I am the world's worst for being too nurturing and caring. I'm FINALLY working on it, but I am very affectionate and right now all that is going to do is reinforce the fact that she doesn't think she has feelings for you and make her feel guilty for "stringing you along" instead of letting you go so you can be happy. My WW brings up the fact that she doesn't deserve me, I should go and be happy with someone else, and that she can't feel that way for me again, etc, blah blah blah, barf. Start with little things and don't think of it as pushing her away. Do it for you, and to gain perspective on being a solo Mar. One thing that I've started doing is not initiating a hug goodbye and not rubbing her feet when we are lounging on the couch. We had always been a cuddly couple and now I don't try any of it. I will receive affection, but even that is waning mostly due to the distant nature of our current sitch.
I find it incredibly helpful on tough emotional days to do 2 things. First, call a friend and (if possible) get a hug. You need someone you can cry and vent and rage to that will just be with you and listen. It's honestly better if they don't give advice. Just someone that tells you they love you and that they will support you in any decisions you ever need to make regarding WW. Second, do something small for yourself today. Even if it is just making a cup of tea or taking a warm shower (aromatherapy and deep breathing in the shower is heaven sent). Before going to bed tonight, tell yourself that tomorrow will be a better day. I like to do some form of self care right before bed and try to fall asleep with a positive mindset so that the next morning I am primed to make the best of the day.
((Mar))
KG
Mar, a few gems of advice are in what these lovelies have written to you. Sometimes what is simple is most helpful.
"searching for the 'why' answer" is a completely normal part of the process. Also - not super helpful - as it continues to put the focus on your W versus you.
Yes, it is completely part of the process, and it might go on for a while. So don't beat yourself up over digging for the why-why-why because I do think we need to go through that. But as Valeska said, try to bring your thoughts back to yourself when possible. Over time, you'll start to see that you might not ever get an answer to your "why" - no matter what the outcome is. You have to make peace with the fact you will never fully understand it. I knew I was healing when I stopped asking "why", because I knew it didn't matter in the end.
Regarding the ILYBNILWY statements: I don't know if this helps or makes it worse for you, but it helped me. I just reminded myself that my XW DID love me. She might not now, but what we had was real and true and it lasted for a good long while. For me that was my comfort. I could move forward knowing we were not inauthentic, it's just that it had changed.
Getting dressed up (anything but sweatpants, really) and going out is incredibly important. You have to remember you are more than just a W and partner - you are a productive member of society who is connected to the world around you. You have permission to withdraw some, but don't ever do it fully. Even spending time in nature by yourself is worth it because you simply cannot sit behind 4 walls 24-7 and expect to feel good about yourself. I'm glad you know this.
Hi Mar,
I wanted to chime in to help. I believe the ladies here have given you excellent advice and in a much softer and well rounded way than I can communicate. What I wanted to mention and reinforce is the kisses, ILYs, hugs or anything along those lines. You are reinforcing her bad behavior with great rewards. Neither of you somewhere in your hearts want that right now.
It sounds like you have been having relationship chats with her. If she's initiating by all means listen and validate her feelings. If a boundary is crossed such as talking about OW, you can tell her you won't have those discussions and if she brings it up, you can remove yourself from the discussion.
If I could roll back the clock, I would listen to the advice I received dozens of times and stopped initiating any form of R chat. Its for both of you. The things you hear can haunt you, produce PTSD and rip away any confidence you have regenerated.
It's hard, it feels impossible and yet you are able to get through this rough patch. In regards to the ILYB's. She felt differently about you before, even married you. These are her current feelings and are not set in stone.
I am having a tough emotional day today. Sitting here with tears in my eyes at the moment. I want all the things she is telling me that she cannot give. If she looks at me one more time and tells me ILYBIANILWYA, I think I will lose it. I really do need to get off this ride. Looking to go away next weekend to visit my BF out of state. Then I seriously need to consider buying that plane ticket. I sincerely think it would be best.
The getaways sound nice. Even buying that plane ticket home. Self Care is so important in this time. And I know the doubts you have around being around your family versus staying home.
But the ugly truth is that regardless of your decision - the holidays will most likely hurt so choosing the decision that makes YOU feel the most supported during the difficult time will be crucial. It may feel contradictory to what your heart wants... but your heart will thank you.
My 1st year in BD - I went home back east for 5 weeks. It was my first holiday away from my XW. I cried a bunch but I was so thankful that my sister was there each time. Looking back now (almost 10 years later) I really cherish that time spent with my family. I'm huge into holidays and being with them helped that part of me survive my BD/D.
If you sincerely think going home is the best for you - Then Do It! It will be hard, but you will get through it.
((Mar))
Kristin, Core, May, Valeska, Mail
I sincerely appreciate all of your support. I am trying to take all of your advice. This weekend was difficult. I don't understand how my W can walk around the house like all is good. On Friday evening she asked if I would help winterize the back deck, i.e., remove cover from Gazebo, bring in all the furniture, etc. on Saturday afternoon. I initially agreed but on Saturday when she was ready I just couldn't do it. I couldn't pretend like everything was normal and we were doing one of our typical routines. I told her I was taking a shower, getting dressed and going out. Needless to say she wasn't happy. I just told her I couldn't do it.
I sat in my car for 1.5 hrs and just cried. Afterwards, I caved and called her. Asked if she was absolutely certain she wanted this separation and again she reiterated that she didn't believe we had a viable marriage and that we needed to be apart. (I know I shouldn't have, I just set myself up for more hurt listening to her tell me again that she didn't want this). I was just so upset. It has only been a few weeks and I am still working on detachment. After I stopped crying and got myself together ended driving to my niece's home. Had dinner with her and spent a few hours there before returning home.
I know I have to let her go. I made plans to go away next weekend and will just continue to take it one day at a time. I did tell her I was considering leaving and going to my families. She keeps emphasizing that she is not kicking me out of my home. I wonder if she is just doing it so that she doesn't look like the bad guy or just to alleviate her guilt. I know, no mind reading.
She keeps emphasizing that she is not kicking me out of my home. I wonder if she is just doing it so that she doesn't look like the bad guy or just to alleviate her guilt. I know, no mind reading.
True, no mind reading. But also, you're likely correct on the guilt.
Here's the best advice anyone gave me during my D. I hope you consider it.
I was talking to an in-person confidant about some financial stuff. XW was offering me something I thought was overly generous and I felt weird about it - I wanted our M, not the financial/physical items. This friend had gone through a D and told me to accept what the offer was if I felt it was at least fair. If in 2 or 3 years I was still feeling this guilt that it wasn't the "right" thing to do I could always gift it back.
I ended up accepting the financial piece. From where I am now - with no ill-will toward XW, but also no rose colored glasses - I think it was fair, and maybe leaned a bit generous. But do I think I owe it back to her? No absolutely not. The way things ended up were divided pretty fairly. I'm so glad I didn't kick the gift horse in the mouth.
I know this isn't where you're at now, but I say this to you as something to keep in mind. Your W is feeling generous and not vindictive at all - use that. It sounds crass and uncaring, I know. I'm definitely NOT saying to take her to the cleaners or try to fight for more. I'm saying that right now you are so vulnerable and just want HER and you have to also consider the financial or legal implications and try your hardest to identify what is truly fair.
If W is saying she's not kicking you out I see that as a bit of not wanting to be the bad guy, yes. And if this S is going to happen anyway (and I DEFINITELY cannot mindread to tell you one way or the other!) you want to take advantage of that generosity. Keeping the fighting and emotions to a minimum and you will walk away with fewer emotional and financial scars.
Carefully consider - if W is not kicking you out, but you leave anyway: is there ANY way in which this can hurt you later legally? I wouldn't think so, but I want you to be very very certain of that. Weekends away are good, but don't move out officially without consulting a lawyer.
I sincerely appreciate all of your support. I am trying to take all of your advice. This weekend was difficult. I don't understand how my W can walk around the house like all is good. On Friday evening she asked if I would help winterize the back deck, i.e., remove cover from Gazebo, bring in all the furniture, etc. on Saturday afternoon. I initially agreed but on Saturday when she was ready I just couldn't do it. I couldn't pretend like everything was normal and we were doing one of our typical routines. I told her I was taking a shower, getting dressed and going out. Needless to say she wasn't happy. I just told her I couldn't do it.
Good for you for taking care of yourself in that moment. If you wanted to the next time - immediately say no and that you have plans. This would be a good place for a boundary for you and her. If you wife wants to do "spouse-like" things - you don't participate. Not in a rude way - just in a matter of fact way. And in case you are wondering... no... you don't say anything to her about it. It's actions in the form of self-care, GALing, and making yourself a priority.
I sat in my car for 1.5 hrs and just cried. Afterwards, I caved and called her. Asked if she was absolutely certain she wanted this separation and again she reiterated that she didn't believe we had a viable marriage and that we needed to be apart. (I know I shouldn't have, I just set myself up for more hurt listening to her tell me again that she didn't want this). I was just so upset. It has only been a few weeks and I am still working on detachment. After I stopped crying and got myself together ended driving to my niece's home. Had dinner with her and spent a few hours there before returning home.
We will continue to put our hand on the fire until we are tired of burning ourselves. It's okay Mar. We've all done it.
I know I have to let her go. I made plans to go away next weekend and will just continue to take it one day at a time. I did tell her I was considering leaving and going to my families. She keeps emphasizing that she is not kicking me out of my home. I wonder if she is just doing it so that she doesn't look like the bad guy or just to alleviate her guilt. I know, no mind reading.
Perhaps try not telling your plans until you know. You need to be certain what is best for you so that when your W lays down the guilt trip or perhaps spews the anger venom - you have a clear mind to validate that she is upset - but at this time - you are doing what's right for you.
Hang in there Mar. Baby steps.
Hi Mar,
I've read a few posting from you, but I just read the beginning of your situation. Wow--can't imagine what it must have felt like to be gaslighted by your W in MC over and over with the therapist supporting your W, you finally bring proof to therapy, and the therapist STILL chides you, this time for recording her illicit behavior. You've been through some tough moments. Hang in there, stay strong.
I sat in my car for 1.5 hrs and just cried. Afterwards, I caved and called her. Asked if she was absolutely certain she wanted this separation and again she reiterated that she didn't believe we had a viable marriage and that we needed to be apart. (I know I shouldn't have, I just set myself up for more hurt listening to her tell me again that she didn't want this). I was just so upset. It has only been a few weeks and I am still working on detachment
Darling Mar, give yourself all the space and acceptance you need right now. Detachment takes SO much longer than a few weeks. You are doing amazing all considering. You have been blindsided, gaslighted, emotionally abused and dumped by the person you trusted most in the world. Of course, you called her. And of course she said what she did and of course, you felt what you felt afterwards. I have been there. In your shoes exactly.
But as all the vets say, don't believe what they say and only half of what they do. My spouse's story has changed so dramatically from a year ago. At first I didn't keep the house clean and walked too heavy. Then he has been miserable for a year, then we never had the 'spark', then he had been miserable for 13 years, then I was abusive, manipulative and controlling. Then I was not any of those things (brief moment of reprieve and lucid awareness on his part, massive apologies from him for having said those things). Then I was all those things again, but only because we had both said those things to each other (I never said those things about him, FYI). And now the latest storyline is that
I never loved HIM!! (Based upon journals he snooped when I wasn't home and he came in, again not true).
Doesn't that all sound so crazy, what I have written out above? Your W is in the same boat. You will hear so much random, chilling, heartbreaking, untrue, horrible things about your R from W right now. And your job is to believe none of it and do the best you can to move forward. (The true bits will sink in and you will make adjustments accordingly, but the majority of it is not worth your psychological exploration, especially if she is in another R, which is driving her mood and actions at the moment.)
Do whatever you can do to detach from W right now. A weekend away, a few months away, saying no to winterizing, WHATEVER you need for you is OK.
(((Mar)))
Sage, thank you. I need all the emotional support I can get. I have caught up on your sitch and it still amazes me how all of these WAS are the same. My W has also rewritten some of our history, including accusing me of being controlling. That is the biggest joke, she has always done whatever she wanted.
I am still an emotional wreck this week. Spent the entire day crying yesterday. Seriously think my hormones are all out of whack. I am definitely peri-menopausal and PMSing at the moment. Couldn't stop crying. I am a bit better today. Looking forward to getting away this weekend.
Ughhh! I am so tired of the freaking lies. I told my wife I was going away this weekend a couple of days ago. She in turn tells me she also made plans to go away for the weekend with her BFF. This morning I asked her what time she was leaving tomorrow because I needed her to drop me off at the car rental place. I am renting a car for the 4 hour drive out of state. My car is old and I only use it to drive locally. We use the W car for everything else.
She tells me she is leaving after 10:30 so she can definitely drop me off before that. I then made the mistake of asking why she was taking her car for the weekend. Note: my W never drives long distance. I do all the driving when we are together and the same with her BFF. She does all the driving. She proceeds to tell me some convoluted story as to why they are taking 2 cars and driving separately. I just looked at her, said ok and walked away knowing that it was a total lie.
I've known my W for 25 years and we have been together for 21. I totally know when she is lying.
She comes to me a half hour later totally upset spewing about how she is tired of feeling anxious around me and if I want to know the truth, here it is. Her BFF is only going for the night. She is leaving Saturday afternoon and my W decided she wanted to stay until Sunday. She then proceeds to start raising her voice, saying she doesn't understand why she always has to explain herself to me, she is tired of feeling like she is always doing something wrong, etc. I just tried to validate. I asked a simple question, why were they taking 2 cars? It wasn't an accusation or interrogation. I've never had an issue with her going out with her BFF.
Now, I can't help wondering why she felt the need to lie in the first place and why the anxiety and obvious guilt. My gut feeling, the OW is going to spend Saturday night with her after her BFF leaves. Note, her BFF knows the OW because they all work together. But her BFF does not know that they are having an A or that they are even 'friends" outside of work. Nobody in her life knows this woman exists except for me because I accidentally discovered the A.
It is going to drive me insane on Saturday wondering if they are actually together. I am so glad I will be with my BFF and pray that she can keep my mind occupied as much as possible. I've made up my mind that I am going to go stay with my sister. Haven't decided when I'm leaving but it will be in the next few weeks. She wants a separation, I am giving it to her. No idea when and if I will be back.
Mar, I'm so sorry. That's awful.
The only help I can offer is to keep going. You have some plans, keep working towards them. When you remove yourself from this you will start to feel so much better. Of course there is a process ahead of you - I'm not denying that - but you are removing yourself from the traumatic experiences and that is an important step. That will help.
I'm most impressed with your clear understanding that you need to take care of yourself. So many people give their spouse too much power over their actions for too long. You know your worth, and perhaps because of that you are devastated. The important part of that sentence though is that you know your worth.
Right now it's just one foot in front of the other. You'll slog through, and then it will be a bit easier.
Yail,
You are giving me too much credit. Me realizing that I need to take care of myself has come very slowly. I have been in this situation for over a 1.5 years. I discovered the A in May 2019 and I have been struggling ever since. I literally feel broken at the moment and have hit rock bottom. I left her for a week in Aug 2019, when I had definitive proof of the A and came back too soon, for a number of different reasons. I regret that decision more than any other in my life. I should never have come back.
We all go through that process Mar, every single one of us. If we walked away the very first time our spouses did something we felt wasn't quite right we wouldn't have been married. To me as a non-religious person a marriage is a commitment to trying. But you have to have both people trying, and it takes a while to see that's not what is going on. Sticking to the bad times is what we signed up for as we honor love we once had.
And then later, there comes a time when that's not enough any more for one or both parties. You know you tried and made it clear you were all-in for trying. Not just 3 months, but for the year and a half. And now, it's time for you to say "Okay. I hear you.".
You didn't do anything wrong. Don't regret that you came back - just acknowledge it as the learning you had to go through for yourself.
Yail, thank you. My W and I both went away this weekend separately and it is the first time in 21 years we were NC. It was extraordinarily difficult for me not to pick up the phone and call her all weekend. I finally caved on my 4 hour drive home. I called her first. It was a strained conversation and I probably shouldn’t have even bothered trying. She is totally distant. Although, she says she is not ready for a divorce I really think she has made up her mind that she no longer wants this marriage. I am convinced that she has fallen in love with the OW.
Hi Mar,
(((Mar)))
I second everything Yail said... we all need to get where we are going at our own pace for it to be authentic. You're in the hardest spot right now.
I might recommend thinking of some strategies to keep yourself from engaging with your W in pressuring ways (calling her, R talks, etc.). Valeska had a post a bit ago on your thread with some really great suggestions, like having a back-pocket "sorry, I have plans" excuse when your W asks you to participate in something wlfe-like together. I remember when my H was on a business trip in AP's city a year ago or so, and I would be just watching the phone to see if he called and itching so badly to call him... I made a list of all the things I would do instead. Call a friend, order takeout, watch a movie with my kids. Schedule a massage. Something that could take my mind off of H just for long enough that I could get past that momentary impulse to contact him. Even now when I have the urge to go yell at him or ask him where his head is these days, instead I find something else to do, run a bath, read a book, go out and work on my garden. (Sometimes. But I'm getting better at this.)
One thing that I resisted for a long time was realizing just how terribly my H was treating me, how selfish and manipulative he was being. I wonder if you are also a little in that place. I feel a lot of sadness in your posts that your W is in an A, but I'm not hearing any anger. Anger isn't a healthy emotion to spend too much time in, but it has its place and right now, you deserve to feel angry. She has lied to you and cheated on you for more than a year. She gaslit you and got your MC to do the same. What are you seeing in her behavior that makes you think she's in any way worthy of you as her W?
I might encourage you to spend a little time here, thinking on what you want in a W and whether she's demonstrating she is that person, to you, today. Maybe she was in the past and you can mourn that. But you have a right to be angry over how she has betrayed your love and your trust, and maybe you can use that anger to your advantage. (I always recommend the chump lady website when you need a boost in this area.)
xoxo M
Yail, thank you. My W and I both went away this weekend separately and it is the first time in 21 years we were NC. It was extraordinarily difficult for me not to pick up the phone and call her all weekend. I finally caved on my 4 hour drive home.
So this is when a 2x4 might be coming your way.
I called her first. It was a strained conversation and I probably shouldn’t have even bothered trying. She is totally distant.
Ouch. You have been burnt again by the fire.
NC is hard... really hard. Detachment... fvcking svcks. It is however the only way you can start protecting your heart Mar. Every time you do this - you open yourself for pain. You want to put boundaries on your wife... but the work starts within. Pulling back is about setting a boundary on yourself because you know... it's going to be painful and so out of emotional safety - you take care of yourself.
Although, she says she is not ready for a divorce I really think she has made up her mind that she no longer wants this marriage. I am convinced that she has fallen in love with the OW.
This is mind reading. The bigger question is what do you need to do. Obviously the want is to be married - but that's not on the table now. So what do you want/need? Try to tell us and leave out your wife if that makes sense. For example:
"I need emotional safety"
"I need emotional support"
"I need to feel good about myself"
And then ask yourself? How do I go about getting these things that I need.
((Mar))
I feel a lot of sadness in your posts that your W is in an A, but I'm not hearing any anger. Anger isn't a healthy emotion to spend too much time in, but it has its place and right now, you deserve to feel angry. She has lied to you and cheated on you for more than a year. She gaslit you and got your MC to do the same.
May, I am incredibly sad and just as equally angry but I have a great deal of difficulty dealing with the anger. Anger is an alien emotion for me. It takes a great deal to get me angry and I am usually just able to work through it and let it go. This time the anger is incredibly overwhelming and I have no idea how to process it. It has turned me into a person I do not recognize. I have used it to strike out at my wife on too many occasions recently. I have thrown a lot of daggers at her that have resulted in some nasty arguments. All of which have just made our situation worse.
What are you seeing in her behavior that makes you think she's in any way worthy of you as her W?
Nothing, and this just makes me angry with myself because despite her behaviors (EA with OW, denial of EA, insistence that she is just friends with OW, gaslighting, hours and hours of telephone conversation with OW, ILYBIANILWY, request for S, etc) I still do not want to let her go. What the hell is wrong with me that I still want to save my M despite everything that she is doing?
Pulling back is about setting a boundary on yourself because you know... it's going to be painful and so out of emotional safety - you take care of yourself.
Valeska, thank you for this. You are absolutely right I do need to start setting boundaries on myself.
This is mind reading. The bigger question is what do you need to do. Obviously the want is to be married - but that's not on the table now. So what do you want/need? Try to tell us and leave out your wife if that makes sense. For example:
"I need emotional safety"
"I need emotional support"
"I need to feel good about myself"
And then ask yourself? How do I go about getting these things that I need.
I need all of these things. I am working on it. My first step will be to physically distance myself from my W. I cannot do this in-house separation. I just cannot handle it emotionally. I keep confronting and attacking her. As a result, I have decided to leave the first week in November. I am going to go home to my family (sister & parents).
I will need support and advice from all of you on how to handle the physical S. I have no idea how I will be able to manage it.
Mar,
I’m sorry your going through this, i have been there myself with my W in a PA a couple times, we always recon’d and this BD she filed and I don’t see any OM. That’s what makes me worry. She left the home without telling me and that sucked I attacked yesterday and it was bad. I had to apologize for it and she said “I understand” each and every time I say something sideways to her she gets pushed farther away. And each and every time I act right she comes closer. I don’t know if our M can make it this time but I’m am certain if I don’t control myself it lowers the chances every time. I’ve gone off on her like 3 times in the last 2 months since BD. Don’t feel too bad we all do it. Please do whatever you can to stop. I also fight the urge to reach out to her, tell her I love her and I’m sorry for taking her for granted, beg her to reconsider, she has showed hesitation in her no before when I asked but she’s still setting up shop elsewhere and even set up the kids room elsewhere. So yeah pushing is really not helping either of us at all. I think we tend to be the ones losing something at first and we panic and we everything we are gonna lose. As long as we cannot detach, act as if and let go they won’t get to the phase they are losing anything and true recon won’t happen. If you do want to save your M try to think “not calling her is giving me a better chance to save the M” or “standing for my M alone means standing for my M alone” I try to do that, I’ve messed up but I have wrote probably 50 texts I never sent her just thinking those 2 things.
My first step will be to physically distance myself from my W. I cannot do this in-house separation. I just cannot handle it emotionally. I keep confronting and attacking her. As a result, I have decided to leave the first week in November. I am going to go home to my family (sister & parents).
I will need support and advice from all of you on how to handle the physical S. I have no idea how I will be able to manage it.
You manage it one day at a time. If that is too much, one hour at a time. If that is too much, one minute at a time...all the way to 1 second at a time if needed.
Clearing your mind from thoughts/regrets of the past and fear of the future helps. Get into the present as much as possible. Have goals and focus your thoughts and actions on your goals.
I learned to channel my anger into positive actions. Do not fear your emotions. They are meant to be felt. They are there to guide you. There are good books out there.
You can handle it. HUGS
May, Valeska, Steve, R2C - Thank you all for the advice and support. I've made the final decision that I cannot emotionally handle an in-house separation. I bought my plane ticket this morning. I am leaving on Nov 7th and going to stay at my families home. I think I am going to give myself 3 months to emotionally decompress. I'll then have to decide which direction I want to go in. I will need to decide where I want to live, will need a new job to fully support myself, essentially I will be starting from scratch.
I think the final thread that was keeping me attached to my W snapped yesterday. We got into another argument. She started screaming at me over a meal I bought her for lunch. I realize she wasn't angry over the meal but about our entire situation. We are both incredibly hurt and angry with one another. I am angry because she refuses to acknowledge that her relationship with the OW is wrong. She continues to claim it is just a "friendship". And she is angry with me because I will not let it go and keep accusing her and throwing "daggers".
We both agree that it would be best to do the full physical separation. I have no idea where it will lead or where we will go from here. I just want to get away from her and figure out a way to begin healing.
Mar, that's rough. I'm sorry things are so hard right now. One thing I wish I would have done is find the strength, or channel the anger, to go NC. It's easy to say "yeah let em go to get em back, etc" . But it's hard thing to truly implement. What happens in the next months will either A) prove that you W is not someone worthy of you and (believe me) you will heal and grow in ways you never thought were possible. Or B) W will wake up and you will have grown and healed and then YOU get to decide what you want for yourself. Either outcome will only bring you strength and growth. To get there you have to take back your power for your life. All of your WWs actions are telling you that she is not protecting or valuing your feelings. Give yourself a break and some time to decide if you want to continue in life with someone that would make a conscious effort to do that to you. I feel like you are such a strong woman and I have zero doubts that you will eventually look back at this and realize how much it helped you grow (as crappy as it is right now).
((Mar)) Thinking of you.
Kristin
Kristen,
Thank you for the support. This week has been quiet. We have both pulled away since the last blow up. She has been coming home late from work all week, eating dinner and going to bed. Today was the first time in a couple of weeks that she actually called me from work to ask if I was ok. I told her I was incredibly sad and just taking it one day at a time. She admitted that she has hit rock bottom and has not had time to deal with any of her emotions because she is incredibly busy at work and comes home to crash. It was a brief conversation.
I have one week left before I get on a plane and leave. No idea what this separation will look like, full NC, partial NC, no clue. I only bought a one way plane ticket and don't know when I will be returning. Our D24 asked me today how long I will be gone for and I told her I didn't know. Told her that her mother and I needed a break from one another for a while. She seemed a bit taken aback that I would not be here for Thanksgiving. It took her by surprise.
Hi all,
I've been gone a couple of months. I did get on a plane on Nov 7th and left my W to come stay with my family. Two months later and I am still away from home. Leaving was definitely the best decision I could have made for my emotional well being. I believe I've been able to let go of the blinding anger that I was feeling towards her. My sister has been an absolute life saver. She has served as an emotional support, my GAL partner, keeping me busy and my mind distracted. She divorced her H after 25 years of marriage so knows exactly what I am going through.
I've made the decision to remain here another month and return home the first week in February. I need to go home and figure out what I want to do with the rest of my life, i.e., need a new job, new place to live, etc. All of which will be extraordinarily difficult as I still cannot picture a future without my W. I absolutely love her and don't know how I will feel going back home and doing an in-house separation until I am ready to move on emotionally and financially.
My W and I have been in contact since I left. The holidays were excrutiating for me but I managed to limit our conversations. She would primarily call when she needed help with something. I was the one that paid all the household bills, dealt with handyman, IT issues, etc., so she would call anytime she had a question about paying a bill, needed a phone number for something, login or password help. All conversations were civil and never any R talks until today.
I called her this morning and told her I was thinking about coming home and needed to know how she felt about it and what to expect when I arrived. We had a 2 hour long conversation that was heart breaking but necessary. She reiterated that our marriage is over, she cannot give me what I want and just wants to concentrate on working on herself but she also said she wasn't ready to make a final decision about divorce. Said she wasn't giving herself a timeline and was just taking it one day at a time. Told me it was completely up to me to decide how I wanted to move forward with my own life. She also expressed concern about the in-house separation. I validated as best I could. Told her that I will respect her feelings and decision despite the fact that it is not what I want. Agreed that I would permanently move into the spare bedroom until I was ready to move out.
Moving forward I will need a lot of support from you guys to DB appropriately. I know I will need to continue to GAL once I return home, work on my 180's and make a plan to move out eventually. I know I need to do all these things for myself but I truley cannot fathom letting go of my W. I've never loved anyone the way I love her and never imagined losing her. A divorce is the last thing in the world I want, but if I want to be realistic, I think I will be like a lot of other LBS on here and eventually be the one to file.
Hi Mar, so good to hear an update from you! It sounds like the time away has been really supportive for you and I am happy you made the choice to leave for this time period.
She reiterated that our marriage is over, she cannot give me what I want and just wants to concentrate on working on herself but she also said she wasn't ready to make a final decision about divorce. Said she wasn't giving herself a timeline and was just taking it one day at a time. Told me it was completely up to me to decide how I wanted to move forward with my own life. She also expressed concern about the in-house separation. I validated as best I could. Told her that I will respect her feelings and decision despite the fact that it is not what I want. Agreed that I would permanently move into the spare bedroom until I was ready to move out.
You did great on waiting so long to have an R talk with your W. Based upon what you have written above, your W has given you some really clear information. W expressed she is worried about an IHS and you are too. It doesn't sound like a situation that will set either of you up for success. It will take a while to integrate and process this conversation, but as you have a month until you return, may I make some suggestions to help you when you do return home?
Get as many ducks lined up as you can right now.
Find a rental now (perhaps a room in a house with another person so you have a soft landing?).
Start looking for a job now.
Make sure you have IC set up for when you get back, maybe even 2 x a week to start off with. I know you had a terrible experience with your previous MC, and lots of therapists are doing zoom calls, so you might even be able to establish care and/or interview people from your home country.
Get those GAL opportunities on the calendar now. Find a yoga studio that's open, a meditation class online or a LGBTQ divorce support group that is 'meeting' virtually for now. Doesn't even have to be in your town!
Make plans to visit friends (you have one out of state that you visited earlier in your sitch, right?)
Find volunteer opportunities that you can participate in during COVID (whether virtually or safely in person)
Basically, you don't want to land and have every spare minute of your time available to focus on your W. The busier you can be, the better, from day one.
Keep posting, we are here for you!
xx
Sage
You did great on waiting so long to have an R talk with your W. Based upon what you have written above, your W has given you some really clear information. W expressed she is worried about an IHS and you are too. It doesn't sound like a situation that will set either of you up for success. It will take a while to integrate and process this conversation, but as you have a month until you return, may I make some suggestions to help you when you do return home?
Get as many ducks lined up as you can right now.
Find a rental now (perhaps a room in a house with another person so you have a soft landing?).
Start looking for a job now.
Make sure you have IC set up for when you get back, maybe even 2 x a week to start off with. I know you had a terrible experience with your previous MC, and lots of therapists are doing zoom calls, so you might even be able to establish care and/or interview people from your home country.
Get those GAL opportunities on the calendar now. Find a yoga studio that's open, a meditation class online or a LGBTQ divorce support group that is 'meeting' virtually for now. Doesn't even have to be in your town!
Make plans to visit friends (you have one out of state that you visited earlier in your sitch, right?)
Find volunteer opportunities that you can participate in during COVID (whether virtually or safely in person)
Basically, you don't want to land and have every spare minute of your time available to focus on your W. The busier you can be, the better, from day one.
Keep posting, we are here for you!
xx
Sage
Sage,
Thank you so much for your response. I have given myself another month precisely because I do need to take the time to process our conversation. It hurt like hell to hear her say again that she no longer wants to be married. All of your suggestions are terrific. I have been contemplating all of this and just trying to figure out what I want. I am still debating the following:
1) Biggest and toughest decision: where do I want to live? Remain in my home state where I was born and raised or move to my native country where my parents, sister and brother are currently living. I have vacationed here my entire life but have never lived here and it would be a drastic life style change. If I chose to move here than my career options will be seriously limited.
2) Figure out a way to earn enough money to either stay in the states or move here.
Regardless of the decisions that I make my entire life will be drastically altered.
Right now I am concentrating on detachment. I have read the detachment thread (
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414) over and over the past couple of days. I need to figure out a way to let her go and stop fantasizing that she will wake up one day and realize that she is making a big mistake. I know it is never going to happen.
Just booked my plane ticket home for the 22nd of this month. It will officially mark 4 months of separation. I was hopeful that the physical separation, especially during the holidays, would ignite something but it seemed to have the opposite effect. My W seems more certain than ever that our marriage is over and that she definitely is not in love with me. I feel totally defeated. All of the actions that I have taken have all seemed to be missteps.
I personally think my absence just gave her the freedom to move closer to the OW. I need to figure out how to live in the same house as her and do nothing but concentrate on myself. I need advice and encouragement.
CWarrior,
"you say months apart was great, and you and your ex are worried about IHS--so, why are you going there?"
I don't have much of a choice but to go back home to figure out my next steps. Financially, I cannot afford to live anywhere else at the moment. Lost my job because of Covid. My unemployment benefits end in April. So, I need to go home to find a new job and figure out where I will be living. Been staying at my families home, out of the country, over the past 2 months.
I will need to let her know that I purchased my plane ticket and will be returning on the 22nd. She will probably offer to pick me up at the airport. Should I accept her offer or not?
Hi Mar,
One skill I learned is to worry more about what happens in a relationship rather than about what may happen. E.g., if you text "I'm flying home on Jan-22", worry about how to respond to her offer, if she actually makes that offer. Some people worry about whole trees of conversations that never materialize.
To the question, I'd plan to go home solo, unless someone was really excited to pick me up.
I'm sorry she chose to use the space to get closer to OW. ((Hugs))
Hi Mar,
Sending hugs your way.
I echo Sage in being really, really glad that the time with your family has been helpful, and taking the time you can now before you fly back to set yourself up for success the best you can.
I was hopeful that the physical separation, especially during the holidays, would ignite something but it seemed to have the opposite effect.
All of the actions that I have taken have all seemed to be missteps.
Here's the thing... first up, I think you need to FORGIVE YOURSELF. There is nothing you can do that will change her mind. It is not on you. There is no magic combination of steps you could have taken that would make her let go of AP and come back to you. Don't beat yourself up or worry that the space you gave her made her closer to OW than if you'd stayed. Her behavior and choices are wholly outside of your control. This was my hardest lesson but the one that has been the most helpful (though for me it is still a mindful practice, not something that comes naturally).
My guess is that IHS is going to be really difficult. I was re-reading your last thread before you left to see your family, and you said you'd decided you couldn't handle an IHS and so were leaving. I guess I'm wondering what will make things bearable now? Can you really explore other options? Are you 100% sure in your heart you aren't coming back to see if you can win her back, but because it is 100% the best thing for you right now?
I think boundaries are going to be critically important for you. Can you think back to how you felt in the fall before you left? Re-read here or your journals and really put yourself back in those shoes? When did you feel emotionally unsafe? what were your triggers? What things did you do that helped, and what things did not help? If I were you-- even though this will probably be uncomfortable-- I'd spend some time really thinking about the lines you need to draw around yourself to protect yourself when you go back into the situation and having your W right there in the same house but saying those same things.
This is so hard, Mar. Your life is changing, and part of that isn't in your control-- the part to do with being married. The rest of it, though is! You have the entire rest of your life in front of you. You get to decide where you want to live, what kind of job you want to do, what kind of people you want to spend time around. Is there any part of you that looks at this and is even a little bit excited? Thinking about how you'll feel when you are no longer tethered emotionally to your W?
You might read DnJ's thread over on MLC (and/or maybe it was on Sage's thread?) where he wrote this long piece about detaching, that right now you're being pulled around like a trailer behind a wildly veering truck, and you need to DETACH and remove your coupling mechanism. And once you heal, start driving yourself. (I'm butchering this, but if you can find it, I thought it was incredibly helpful imagery, at least for me.)
Hang in there! You can do this.
xx May
{{{{May}}},
Thank you so much this is exactly the type of advice I need. I 100% need to figure out how to detach and maintain adequate boundaries.. I had a conversation with my sister last night precisely about this. I do not want to let go of her. It angers me that I feel this way despite the fact that she has obviously let me go but I can't help feeling the need to continue taking care of her and loving her. I sincerely think is is making a life altering mistake with no support system. She doesn't have anyone besides me to catch her when she falls. I at least have my sister, BF and brother.
I really have no other option but to go home. I need to figure out what I am going to do with the rest of my life. Need to earn an adequate income again and then decide where I want to live.
[I'd spend some time really thinking about the lines you need to draw around yourself to protect yourself when you go back into the situation and having your W right there in the same house but saying those same things.] - This is all I've been doing for the past two months. I know I need to protect myself emotionally when I return. Do not want to be in the same negative place I was in before I left.
This is going to be incredibly difficult. Just this evening she was supposed to call me after work because she wanted to discuss specifics about me coming home. I let her know yesterday that I bought my plane ticket. She was unable to talk last night so she texted that she would call me tonight. Well, I never got that call. Of course, I was upset. Instead of just letting it go, I looked at her call logs. She spent 1.5 hours on the phone with the OW, after she got home, instead of calling me. I know I should have never done this. No need for a 2x4. I gave myself one.
I wish I had someone like you to talk to when I'm about to make stupid choices like this. I seriously need to just DETACH, DETACH,DETACH.
May,
I found DNJ's analogy about detachment. I especially liked this explanation - "The emotional coupling equipment to our spouse is destroyed". I definitely need to destroy the coupling equipment.
(((Mar)))
Yes! Destroy that coupling equipment and sand it down, polish it smooth so when she throws that hook your way, there is nothing to catch on.
Here's another weird thing that helped me-- there are a couple of videos about stoicism on YouTube that somehow spoke to me and really helped me to detach and let go of that which is outside of my control. The guy's name is Ryan Holiday and the video is called you control how you play. Maybe watch that.
Another thing that helped me see my H more clearly and let go of my preconceived image of H was the chump lady's website. Really helped me fuel up for why I didn't want to be with him anymore. Maybe check that out too.
xx M
May,
Thank you for the recommendations. Spent a couple of hours this afternoon on the Chump Lady's blog. It actually helped quite a bit. Serious reality check! Will look for the videos this weekend.
Hi Sweet ((((mar))))
I am so sorry you are here.
I'm further along than you and just wanted to pop in and say - no matter what, you WILL be ok.
It's painful, I know, and feels like it will always be that way but you will have better days.
Detaching, to me, is a process involving a choice I have to make each time I have a thought about X. I choose to remember all the things I miss (a lot of fantasy, because he wasn't honest with me and had a lot of issues) or the things I refuse to allow in my life (adultery, lies, etc.).
I moved out of my beautiful marital home on October 25. One of the most difficult things I had to do, but once removed, I focused on my life. I was in the process of training for my new career. It kept me busy! That was Perfect!!
I realized that once I decided to focus on my goals, I thought about him less and less. He would reach out and text randomly and eventually, I blocked him.
You could not have told me a year ago it would be my choice not to talk to him.
Once I was out of the home, I had time and space and the peace to reflect on what I wanted in life. I didn't want to worry about who he was texting, flirting with, intimate with etc. I no longer wanted to be in our old MR. I loved him, but I started being real about the life I had with him.
You will be ok. When you start taking your life in your hands and let go of the fear of losing your M.
You are not alone. I'll try and check in as often as I can. Big hugs.You can do this.
Hope,
Thank you so much for the encouragement. It's been 3.5 months since we separated. I too will have to move out of my home as soon as I am financially able to do so. After 21 years together I feel like I am losing everything. Every day is an emotional struggle. Please continue to offer advice. I will especially need it after I return home on the 22.
Mar
New Thread.