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WAW w/Exit Affair or WW? - Don't Want Divorce (1)Summary:
W & I have been together 9 years, married 7. We have a son who turned 5 in March (a month after Bomb Day) and a daughter who just turned 2 last week. We didn't have a perfect marriage - disagreed on kids' nutrition & screen time and purchases at times, but did not have any major issues which we couldn't work through and would constitute divorce (or so I thought). I don't do drugs, not an alcoholic, have a very good career, am a very wonderful and involved father, and a pretty good husband (or so I thought). I've never cheated, never abusive emotionally (though now says I did) or physically...etc.
In early January W starts a new job/role with her employer, going from part-time to full-time (plus OT). A few weeks later we have a good time on a Disney vacation with two other families. Shortly after we return she starts acting odd/short/mean. Bomb Day just three weeks later in mid-February (7.5 months ago now). I immediately suspect something is up and confirm EA/PA with co-worker in late February / early March (later find out he's married 15 years with 3 young daughters). Immediately after BD W leaves martial bedroom effectively creating an in-house separation and I make all the mistakes: telling her how much I care, buying gifts, sending her pictures of memories, pleading...etc. I cut that out and give her space for awhile but bring up R talks and confront more about affair every few weeks (roughly March - May). We go to a few virtual marriage counseling sessions in May and she finally admits the affair but a week or so later I confront her over a burner phone I found in her car and she says "that's it, I'm done". She plans to move out to her mother's house at the end of June after her work hours change and tell the kids, but agrees to wait until August to have the kids start splitting time and tell them when our tenants move out of our other house.
The first weekend in July she tells the kids without me present (despite agreeing many times we should have that talk together including during a counseling session we had on "how to tell the kids" ). Rational or not, this angers me more than even the affair because it's specifically a decision about the kids, and I think the LBS fog clears a bit because I'm starting to see things differently. I found this site in June and started DB'ing. We each take the kids separately to our own respective family's vacations, and I have to drop off the kids at "mommy's new house" for the first time in August, which of course I have a breakdown in the car afterwards. We're splitting the kids 50/50 in verbal agreement (nothing officially signed yet), though in practice I end up having them more days and nights per month because on W's work and social schedule (which I'm completely fine with).
I've been practicing the DB'ing rules for 2-3 months now. I have very little contact with W, unless it's about kids or finances and via email (or occasional text). I'm feeling much better in August-Sept than I was in Feb-June, mostly up but still some downs. When I have the kids I'm 100% tuned into them and when i don't I've been fixing up things around the house, golfing and going out with friends, bought a new vehicle, coaching S5's soccer team and walking him to/from school, exercising a bit, going to regular individual counseling sessions, interacting with people here...etc. So overall much better last 2-3 months than first 4-5 months.
Some significant updates this week in the following posts...
Unfortunately there were some "down" moments this week...
In my previous thread I mentioned some back and forth texts with the W when she texted me the night before telling (not asking) me there would be a change to our agreed upon schedule. I pushed back a bit but she held her ground but I couldn't do anything about it really, so I let it go after a few texts and stopped engaging.
The next day was my dinner evening with the kids on my "OFF" week. W texts me to say she can drop off D2 or I can pick her up, let her know, so after W and my IC appt I text W to say I'm on my way to pick her up and drove over to her house to pick up D2 from D2's great grandmother (84yo) as I've done before. It was completely cordial, and I explained in case W told her there was a disagreement it had nothing to do with her, that I have no issue with her and just objected to the last minute/unilateral change. I left thinking everything was fine. My mom also had a phone call with great grandma essentially saying the same thing. I did not touch or so much as raise my voice, and we had a civil conversation. There we no indications of any problem.
48 hours later I'm out for dinner and drinks with friends and receive 5 calls on my phone from a number I don't recognize, so assume it's spam, but eventually a voicemail pops up. It's a 2 minute message from W's great grandmother about "how could I do such a thing", "you sacred me half to death and I could've had a stroke or a heart attack", and "I didn't call the police but I should've"...etc, etc. Now this is a woman who loved and thought very highly of me and my family - I'd walk her arm in arm down stairs and to her car even the one time I saw her during sitch.
I also received a follow up email from my wife about how I'm not supposed to come over unannounced and uninvited (it wasn't either - it was my night and my W & I had texted about picking up D2.
I've saved the voicemail and written up what happened and sent to L to make sure I'm covered as much as I can legally, and informed my family of the situation and asked them not to reach out to W, W's mom, or W's grandmother, but I'm concerned this may escalate into something bad.
The second notable item from the week is...
It's come to my attention there is good reason to believe W is onto OM2. It's amazing how other sitches and experience people on this forum can predict what will happen. I did not seek this information out. I've not been snooping and have done fairly week over the last two months of detaching (no drive-bys, digging up info on social media...etc.). But as I was relaying information to my FIL and SMIL about the child care schedule and situation with W's grandma, they hesitantly brought up the topic and asked if I thought affair with OM1 was still on-going. I didn't know but thought probably. They said they're not so sure because a few interactions and things they've noticed would indicate she's now hooking up with the brother of her good friend.
Anyway, this news did hit me a little bit though more from the perspective of "great, my kids are around this guy" so I broke down a little and snooped on social media. He's 38 and single with a mediocre job and I believe living with his mom. He's a bit of a gym rat (protein shakes, gym two times a day)/motorcycle & truck/no relationships kind of guy, and posts check-ins at strip clubs and trashy things on Facebook. Very different than me (as was OM1).
I didn't sleep very well this weekend. I'm concerned about my W and him hanging out with the kids, but don't think there's anything I can do about it. It upsets me to think I'll have no input into my children's "other" father figure(s) for the next 20 years.
Finally...it came to my attention this week that people at my W's work are VERY aware of her activities with AP/OM1. Again, I wasn't seeking this information our and it wasn't my doing they know, but a good number of people have noticed and it's not reflecting well on her or her future career there. Nothing that really changes anything for me, but it was a bit of a schadenfreude moment. I guess there's a part of me that is glad W's behavior has some repercussions and isn't just leading to a fairytale ending.
Hey BL.
Don't let that stuff get to you. Expect the worst and hope for the best. Stick to the schedule for now and tell everyone thank you but no thank you in regards to keeping up with your WW.
Focus on something you can control and invest your energy into an area that can provide a return.
ovrrnbw - Thanks for weighing in. I'll try. Just seemed like a crazy week.
All - Other comments/advice? Thought these three happenings from last week might generate more feedback (or maybe these are relatively vanilla?):
- W unilaterally changes agreed upon schedule at last minute, leading to text exchange disagreements
- Completely civil conversation with W's grandma (who used to love and think very highly of me and my family) at D2 exchange the next day somehow turns into to a voicemail from her 48 hours later with a threat to call the police
- Unsolicited information leads to a strong indication there's an OM2 now in the picture (affair with OM1 done?), likely hanging out with children
B,
Point one you need to stand your ground and remind her of the agreement in place.
Point two. Blood is thicker then water. Not much you can do about it.
Point three. Not surprising at all. Affairs are just a symptom of a deeply rooted issue. As for hanging out around your kids, unfortunately there is nothing you can do about it unless your kids lives are in danger.
I'm sorry.
Hey BL,
I'm behind on your sitch but wanted to chime in on recent events.
The VM from GIL is peculiar. I would think she's heard some awful things about you during this process and is trusting her family that all is true. Documenting this was helpful. It's awful and it does sound best to keep distance from her until some time passes. Especially while Ding to keep it low conflict. Sorry you are losing not just W but the in laws that you've bonded with.
With how much your W was in to "Mr Perfect", its shocking there could be OM2 but I'm not surprised after reading the boards. OM2 may be someone she's lining up to take OM1s place if it dont work out. After all, how can she trust a cheater. Being around your kids is another thing. What Ovr mentioned comes to mind....you control what you can. In the divorce you can mention you dont want the kids introduced to a new person for a set amount of time however my understanding is no one enforces it. I feel your pain on this one. What you can do is work on yourself. You're likely clouded with feelings about his character. I would be too. As an outsider, he sounds to me like an already divorced guys guy, not looking for commitment. Gosh, I may be a guy living at my dads, going to strip clubs after this dry spell.
No one will replace you as dad unless you let them. You'll always be dad to the kids. I equally am disgusted at the thought of someone else raising my kids. Something that helped and hurt me is the likelihood of anyone sticking around for awhile is slim. I dont know whats worse, multiple step dads, or one that stays. Ideally none but thats where you come in...create stability for those kids.
LH19,
Point one you need to stand your ground and remind her of the agreement in place.
Will do. I'm not just giving in.
Point two. Blood is thicker then water. Not much you can do about it.
You're right, just crazy to me how I went from "best grandson ever" to a threat to call police for picking up my daughter. I've read about Ds escalating needlessly and it seems to be happening in my sitch.
Point three. Not surprising at all. Affairs are just a symptom of a deeply rooted issue. As for hanging out around your kids, unfortunately there is nothing you can do about it unless your kids lives are in danger.
I'm sorry.
I've read about the likelihood of OM2 in this forum but it still threw me a bit in my sitch. I wasn't seeking out the info, it came to me without prompting, but made me question things a bit as to my part in all of this versus whether those deeply rooted issues were more on my W's teenage sitch with her parents' D. I wasn't perfect, but didn't do anything to deserve all this.
Core,
I'm behind on your sitch but wanted to chime in on recent events.
Thanks for weighing in. I've been reading your sitch as well. Sorry for all you're going through.
The VM from GIL is peculiar. I would think she's heard some awful things about you during this process and is trusting her family that all is true. Documenting this was helpful. It's awful and it does sound best to keep distance from her until some time passes. Especially while Ding to keep it low conflict. Sorry you are losing not just W but the in laws that you've bonded with.
I documented it and sent it to L, but I agree it's peculiar. I'm not exaggerating when I say she LOVED me and me family, perhaps more than her own - so to get threats about police a few days later when there was absolutely nothing I did to prompt that and things were completely civil seems so bizarre. Makes me wonder if she was coached after the fact.
With how much your W was in to "Mr Perfect", its shocking there could be OM2 but I'm not surprised after reading the boards. OM2 may be someone she's lining up to take OM1s place if it dont work out. After all, how can she trust a cheater. Being around your kids is another thing. What Ovr mentioned comes to mind....you control what you can. In the divorce you can mention you dont want the kids introduced to a new person for a set amount of time however my understanding is no one enforces it. I feel your pain on this one. What you can do is work on yourself. You're likely clouded with feelings about his character. I would be too. As an outsider, he sounds to me like an already divorced guys guy, not looking for commitment. Gosh, I may be a guy living at my dads, going to strip clubs after this dry spell.
The conversations between W and AP/OM1 were fanciful. Just a few months ago they were "each other's one and only person", "no one ever loved them for themselves", and they had dreams of when they could D and live together with the kids playing in the yard. When their employer and both spouses found out I guess things changed. The existence of OM2 has made me question myself all over again - even when OM1 may be out of the picture she's still seeking out others and not me, and people who are drastically different.
No one will replace you as dad unless you let them. You'll always be dad to the kids. I equally am disgusted at the thought of someone else raising my kids. Something that helped and hurt me is the likelihood of anyone sticking around for awhile is slim. I dont know whats worse, multiple step dads, or one that stays. Ideally none but thats where you come in...create stability for those kids.
Thanks, will do. I've put so much focus on the kids over the last 8 months. I'm doing everything I can to see them as much as I can and make sure they know they're loved. It's quite possible, even likely, she won't be happy with OM1 and he won't last. Just hate the idea of him being an influence on the kids and the potential instability for them.
Hey BL,
I'm behind on your sitch but wanted to chime in on recent events.
The VM from GIL is peculiar. I would think she's heard some awful things about you during this process and is trusting her family that all is true. Documenting this was helpful. It's awful and it does sound best to keep distance from her until some time passes. Especially while Ding to keep it low conflict. Sorry you are losing not just W but the in laws that you've bonded with.
With how much your W was in to "Mr Perfect", its shocking there could be OM2 but I'm not surprised after reading the boards. OM2 may be someone she's lining up to take OM1s place if it dont work out. After all, how can she trust a cheater. Being around your kids is another thing. What Ovr mentioned comes to mind....you control what you can. In the divorce you can mention you dont want the kids introduced to a new person for a set amount of time however my understanding is no one enforces it. I feel your pain on this one. What you can do is work on yourself. You're likely clouded with feelings about his character. I would be too. As an outsider, he sounds to me like an already divorced guys guy, not looking for commitment. Gosh, I may be a guy living at my dads, going to strip clubs after this dry spell.
No one will replace you as dad unless you let them. You'll always be dad to the kids. I equally am disgusted at the thought of someone else raising my kids. Something that helped and hurt me is the likelihood of anyone sticking around for awhile is slim. I dont know whats worse, multiple step dads, or one that stays. Ideally none but thats where you come in...create stability for those kids.
Going through this now. OM has convinced WW who is IHS with me to transition quicker beginning November. She is already asking the kids about what beds they want and comforters.
We recently started mediation (over zoom) and will get a lawyer to file for us.
It's difficult to accept OM will be having my kids at weekends but I'll actually get a little more than 50%.
WW met OM in January and already decided to move in with him in April but she's waiting for the "equity" as she puts it - for me to buy her out.
Her behavior has been outrageous. I caught her having a one night stand last October, have all the proof and she still denies it.
It was an up and down week for me...
On the bright side I took the kids for ice cream with friends on Wednesday, coached S5's soccer practice on Thursday, took the kids to the pumpkin farm on Saturday and then to a State Park for hiking in the Fall foliage yesterday. I'm seeing and engaging with them as much as possible, and we're all really enjoying it. I love them so much and between me and my parents trying to give them all the love and stability we can.
Unfortunately the encounter with W's grandmother (not the encounter itself but the follow up days later) shook me a bit. All the phone calls and voicemail from her about how she should have called the police, and W's attorney wrote a letter threatening to charge me with trespassing...all because I show up a bit early to pick up D2 for my scheduled evening with the kids. I don't know if W's grandmother (84) is starting to have elderly issues or if this is purposefully malicious but I didn't do a single thing that could be construed as threatening. I just went to pick up my daughter. It's a shame there's such an escalation on W's side instead of being reasonable. I read on heard WWs aren't rational, but it's still hard to get my head around it.
Also the OM2 situation did get to me. I suppose I need to work harder on detaching. During the weeks is fine but on kids transition when I she her and then hear news like this, it shows I'm not 100%. I guess I feel into the trap of many LBSs that she fell hard for her co-worker/AP/OM1 who was in the right place at the right time and if/when that ended she might come out of the fog and see how good of a husband/father I am. Instead she's just turning to the next guy, so obviously it's not a one-off thing and she still sees me as the enemy. I've thought about this while contemplating dating on my own as well. W originally told me that she was broken down and needed to focus on herself and not be in any relationship right now - though she was lying because she was already had OM1 - which is the advice many people on this forum give. I wonder if she's jumping into these relationships to mask her own issues rather than working on herself, and by me holding off I'll be in a better place in the long run. Based on the guys involved it doesn't bode well for her long-term.
My L said W/W's attorney filed to have a judge assigned to the case which my attorney said it's not a big deal but a way to speed up the process, so again...W is pushing things along and not showing any signs of wavering or laziness you hear about from other WSs/WAWs on this board. I honestly think I'd be ok with the marriage end at this point if not for the kids involved, but who knows.
Last night I went over to my parents' house to string some outdoor lights I bought for their screened-in porch and my mother was crying. She's been hit very hard by my sitch, not just because her son is hurting but also she & W were extremely close (or at least we thought) for the first 8 years. As recently as December of last year they both took my son on a day trip to see a Disney show together and had a great time, but once BD hit she was completely cut out.
My mom is very emotional and having a harder time detaching than I am. Apparently she stopped by my W's former best friend's house (she was in our wedding) yesterday without my knowledge to talk and try to understand what happened. My W and her friend have not been in touch for close to 2 years now because my W informed her of her husband's infidelity and encouraged her to divorce him, yet she forgave him and they've been working on their relationship. Anyway, apparently my W has been bad-mouthing me behind my back to work colleagues for quite some time (years?) without my knowledge. Also bad mouthing my parents and sister, who have been NOTHING but warm and welcoming and generous to W since the day they met her. My wife's friend said she believes my mom those things were lies but that she's not surprised our marriage was ending based on what my W has said in the past (without saying it to me) and that W has had many issues (ADs, counseling) well before she met me. Her and her husband are glad W is out of their lives and said to stay away from W, W's mom, and W's grandmother (of course we can't do that completely as they can due to S5 and D2). Hearing these things brought out anger in me about my W - how could she say all of those things behind our backs? I supposed it gives me better understanding of her history, and helps validate/confirm it's not all me, but it's hard to understand how she could go 8 years with being nice and friendly to my family to our faces and then trash talk us to her colleagues. Can a person hide that long?!? It's hard to reconcile the person I knew to who I'm experiencing now and apparently what others have seen in the past. It also made me pity my W a bit because she's jumped into OM1 and now with OM2, neither of whom are men who are going to make her happy, if anyone can. I suspect in a year or two or more she's going to be just as unhappy either on her own or with another man who is not the father of her children.
Anyway, my mom has been caring for the kids a good bit and being S5's teacher (grandma school) on his virtual days, so he's been opening up to her. She shared he asked her to come to "mommy's house" to see his new fish and was so excited to show her, but she had to explain she couldn't because mommy moved away and doesn't want grandma coming over, and he teared up and cried and said "WHY, WHY?", and all my mom could say was she doesn't know and it's adult problems and we still love you very much.
So much pain and sadness for everyone involved in this whole situation...
The existence of OM2 has made me question myself all over again - even when OM1 may be out of the picture she's still seeking out others and not me, and people who are drastically different.
It's not the other man #1 or #101. It is her
fantasy that keeps her jumping from man to man. Of course she is not seeking you out, b/c she doesn't want that relationship. That's one reason a WW will usually have some OM that is nothing like her H. She wants to escape her old life.
Also the OM2 situation did get to me. I suppose I need to work harder on detaching. During the weeks is fine but on kids transition when I she her and then hear news like this, it shows I'm not 100%. I guess I feel into the trap of many LBSs that she fell hard for her co-worker/AP/OM1 who was in the right place at the right time and if/when that ended she might come out of the fog and see how good of a husband/father I am. Instead she's just turning to the next guy, so obviously it's not a one-off thing and she still sees me as the enemy. I've thought about this while contemplating dating on my own as well.
Look, this didn't happen b/c you've been a bad husband/father. That's one of the distinguishing features about a wayward W. She lost respect for you as a man. It's how she sees you. She carried around resentment toward you, and she blames you for her unhappiness. Whether or not she ever says those exact words......this is the foundation of waywardness. The mindset of a WW is not a pretty picture! In other words, the problem is her....not you. And now, she is acting out in rebellion, just like a teenager!
Don't compare yourself with OM. Don't hold your breath, hoping any day she'll snap out of her waywardness and see what a treasure you are. Something might happen to shake her senses, but recovering from a wayward mindset is a process. She can decide to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean her feelings for you will all be resolved and returned to normal the minute she ends her affair. This is what many newcomers don't grasp. She can recover, but it is tough b/c it requires hard work on her inner self. She has to work through all that garbage in her head/heart, before she can be the loving W you desire. Ending her affair and returning home is not an automatic cure, like some LBH's think. She doesn't just bounce back to her old self. It's necessary for her to take these steps (and more), but her problem is in her heart.
The fact that your WW has been talking behind your back is not surprising. I think a WW talks bad about the LBH, to try and justify her reason for leaving and getting involved with OM. If she can convince her relatives, friends, & co-workers that her H was a jerk, she thinks it will elevate herself in their eyes.
Unfortunately the encounter with W's grandmother (not the encounter itself but the follow up days later) shook me a bit. All the phone calls and voicemail from her about how she should have called the police, and W's attorney wrote a letter threatening to charge me with trespassing...all because I show up a bit early to pick up D2 for my scheduled evening with the kids. I don't know if W's grandmother (84) is starting to have elderly issues or if this is purposefully malicious but I didn't do a single thing that could be construed as threatening. I just went to pick up my daughter. It's a shame there's such an escalation on W's side instead of being reasonable. I read on heard WWs aren't rational, but it's still hard to get my head around it.
That sounds as if your W has influenced her GM that you can't be trusted. When they start threatening to call police and/or have the attorney send you threatening letters..........it's time to pull way back from your in-laws. I understand they are related to your children, and maybe GM babysits, IDK. But you are walking on dangerous grounds when you can't go there to pick up your kids, without having charges brought against you.
I hope your lawyer will fight for your rights as a father. It's okay to hear something isn't that big of a deal, but I would want to know how to proceed in picking up your children from the in-laws. Do you call ahead to let GM know you are on your way there, so she won't be taken off guard? There needs to be some solution, where you aren't at risk when you go to get your children.
P.S. The WW wants to escape to a new & better life (which usually includes another man). She doesn't want "to work" on herself. In fact, she doesn't want to "work" at anything, especially a relationship. She just wants to feel in love, without any effort whatsoever. Some WW's who leave the H will tell him that she's working on herself.........but it's a lie! Reality = work. Fantasy = play.
P.S. #2......As for the dating thing, I suggest you read Wolfman's updates.
((hugs))
Last night I went over to my parents' house to string some outdoor lights I bought for their screened-in porch and my mother was crying. She's been hit very hard by my sitch, not just because her son is hurting but also she & W were extremely close (or at least we thought) for the first 8 years. As recently as December of last year they both took my son on a day trip to see a Disney show together and had a great time, but once BD hit she was completely cut out.
My mom is very emotional and having a harder time detaching than I am. Apparently she stopped by my W's former best friend's house (she was in our wedding) yesterday without my knowledge to talk and try to understand what happened. My W and her friend have not been in touch for close to 2 years now because my W informed her of her husband's infidelity and encouraged her to divorce him, yet she forgave him and they've been working on their relationship. Anyway, apparently my W has been bad-mouthing me behind my back to work colleagues for quite some time (years?) without my knowledge. Also bad mouthing my parents and sister, who have been NOTHING but warm and welcoming and generous to W since the day they met her. My wife's friend said she believes my mom those things were lies but that she's not surprised our marriage was ending based on what my W has said in the past (without saying it to me) and that W has had many issues (ADs, counseling) well before she met me. Her and her husband are glad W is out of their lives and said to stay away from W, W's mom, and W's grandmother (of course we can't do that completely as they can due to S5 and D2). Hearing these things brought out anger in me about my W - how could she say all of those things behind our backs? I supposed it gives me better understanding of her history, and helps validate/confirm it's not all me, but it's hard to understand how she could go 8 years with being nice and friendly to my family to our faces and then trash talk us to her colleagues. Can a person hide that long?!? It's hard to reconcile the person I knew to who I'm experiencing now and apparently what others have seen in the past. It also made me pity my W a bit because she's jumped into OM1 and now with OM2, neither of whom are men who are going to make her happy, if anyone can. I suspect in a year or two or more she's going to be just as unhappy either on her own or with another man who is not the father of her children.
Anyway, my mom has been caring for the kids a good bit and being S5's teacher (grandma school) on his virtual days, so he's been opening up to her. She shared he asked her to come to "mommy's house" to see his new fish and was so excited to show her, but she had to explain she couldn't because mommy moved away and doesn't want grandma coming over, and he teared up and cried and said "WHY, WHY?", and all my mom could say was she doesn't know and it's adult problems and we still love you very much.
So much pain and sadness for everyone involved in this whole situation...
This is what was so amazing in the midst of my sitch. My WW's capacity to just throw relationships away like bad rubbish. She was oblivious to the pain she would be causing others. Like your W and mother, my W and mother have always been very close. Much closer than my W and her own mother! But in the midst of our sitch my W completely ignored my mom. My mom had just come off of a very rough patch health wise, and my WW was not there for her at all like she normally would have been. My mom never said anything about, and my W and I kept our troubles from everyone we knew. But I do wonder if my mom wondered why my W was not there for her at all.
This is why we try to tell people to not share your sitch with others. Now if your W ever decides to come back, she will have to reconcile with your mother too. Sometimes the peripheral relationships are harder to heal than the primary (MR) one. But in some sitches it is impossible to hide.
Keep focusing on you BL....it will get better no matter what.
sandi2,
It's not the other man #1 or #101. It is her fantasy that keeps her jumping from man to man. Of course she is not seeking you out, b/c she doesn't want that relationship. That's one reason a WW will usually have some OM that is nothing like her H. She wants to escape her old life.
Makes sense, and seems to apply here.
Look, this didn't happen b/c you've been a bad husband/father. That's one of the distinguishing features about a wayward W. She lost respect for you as a man. It's how she sees you. She carried around resentment toward you, and she blames you for her unhappiness. Whether or not she ever says those exact words......this is the foundation of waywardness. The mindset of a WW is not a pretty picture! In other words, the problem is her....not you. And now, she is acting out in rebellion, just like a teenager!
Thanks for saying that. I pride myself on being a fantastic father - I'm as present and involved with the kids as much or more than anyone out there - and though not perfect, a pretty decent husband as well. You're right about the loss of respect. However, what I'm struggling with the reason for that loss of respect. I understand it may not change the situation and "I may never know" but then how do I work on myself for the future if I can't identify the reasons/behaviors which caused it? When I think about it objectively I do believe the problem is her and not me, and I attribute a lot of it to her family background...she does seem to be acting in a rebellious teenage manner which is the timing of when her mom had an affair and divorced her dad, but is that lazy thinking...what should I do better in the future?
Don't compare yourself with OM. Don't hold your breath, hoping any day she'll snap out of her waywardness and see what a treasure you are. Something might happen to shake her senses, but recovering from a wayward mindset is a process. She can decide to do the right thing, but that doesn't mean her feelings for you will all be resolved and returned to normal the minute she ends her affair. This is what many newcomers don't grasp. She can recover, but it is tough b/c it requires hard work on her inner self. She has to work through all that garbage in her head/heart, before she can be the loving W you desire. Ending her affair and returning home is not an automatic cure, like some LBH's think. She doesn't just bounce back to her old self. It's necessary for her to take these steps (and more), but her problem is in her heart.
I too struggled with that initially. In the first few months I focused on AP/OM1 and how to get him out of the picture, whereas friends (and online resources) told me that wasn't the issue that another man would come along...and they were right. I don't believe she's one to look inward and really work on her issues right now. She seems to completely be blaming me for her unhappiness - not sure she's going to do the work needed.
The fact that your WW has been talking behind your back is not surprising. I think a WW talks bad about the LBH, to try and justify her reason for leaving and getting involved with OM. If she can convince her relatives, friends, & co-workers that her H was a jerk, she thinks it will elevate herself in their eyes.
Understood, but what surprised me was hearing about how far back it went...well before BD (years), without me knowing.
That sounds as if your W has influenced her GM that you can't be trusted. When they start threatening to call police and/or have the attorney send you threatening letters..........it's time to pull way back from your in-laws. I understand they are related to your children, and maybe GM babysits, IDK. But you are walking on dangerous grounds when you can't go there to pick up your kids, without having charges brought against you.
I hope your lawyer will fight for your rights as a father. It's okay to hear something isn't that big of a deal, but I would want to know how to proceed in picking up your children from the in-laws. Do you call ahead to let GM know you are on your way there, so she won't be taken off guard? There needs to be some solution, where you aren't at risk when you go to get your children.
Yes, I believe she was influenced by my W and more likely W's mom. I had another incident two weeks ago where I arranged timing with my W and when I showed up W's grandma wouldn't bring D2 out to me and I waited with an umbrella outside in the rain for 10-15mins and my W had to call her. Good news is my W talked to her since and hopefully tomorrow won't be an issue. If it happens a third time I'll need to get my L to take some action.
P.S. The WW wants to escape to a new & better life (which usually includes another man). She doesn't want "to work" on herself. In fact, she doesn't want to "work" at anything, especially a relationship. She just wants to feel in love, without any effort whatsoever. Some WW's who leave the H will tell him that she's working on herself.........but it's a lie! Reality = work. Fantasy = play.
Yes, you seemed to have hit the nail on the head. My wife told me she was at a zero, beaten down for 5 years and needed to work on herself and not be in a relationship...all the while in an affair with a married co-worker, and now supposedly on to the next man. I believe you're right that she doesn't want to work on and address her issues but rather "just be happy".
P.S. #2......As for the dating thing, I suggest you read Wolfman's updates.
I've been reading Wolfman's sitch, and I don't envy his position. I wouldn't rule out more kids IF I enter a wholesome healthy relationship someday, but never want to be put in the position of a shot gun wedding.
Thanks sandi. I'm sure you hear this a lot but reading your comment helped a great deal.
Steve85,
This is what was so amazing in the midst of my sitch. My WW's capacity to just throw relationships away like bad rubbish. She was oblivious to the pain she would be causing others. Like your W and mother, my W and mother have always been very close. Much closer than my W and her own mother! But in the midst of our sitch my W completely ignored my mom. My mom had just come off of a very rough patch health wise, and my WW was not there for her at all like she normally would have been. My mom never said anything about, and my W and I kept our troubles from everyone we knew. But I do wonder if my mom wondered why my W was not there for her at all.
Crazy. It's scary how easy it is for our Ws to throw away those close relationships. Maybe she does know the pain she's causing and she's just embarrassed to be around her because of it, or maybe she's oblivious to it, but her and my mom was extremely close for 8 years and is still helping S5 with his virtual Kindergarten 5 days a week (even on W's week) and W won't even say hello to her. Looking back on W's relationships with family and friends though she has had falling outs and cut people off in the past - I guess me and my family missed the red flags and were naive to think it wouldn't happen to us.
This is why we try to tell people to not share your sitch with others. Now if your W ever decides to come back, she will have to reconcile with your mother too. Sometimes the peripheral relationships are harder to heal than the primary (MR) one. But in some sitches it is impossible to hide.
For better or worse that ship has sailed. I told my parents and sister immediately after BD and they learned about the affair shortly thereafter right along with me, before finding this site. I leaned on them for support quite a bit and can't imagine doing those first few months without them. Not sure W is ever coming back - though I guess things can turn on a dime sometimes - and not sure if I could even take her back (at this point it would be mostly to do the right thing for the kids).
Keep focusing on you BL....it will get better no matter what.
Thanks Steve, I'm trying! It has gotten better over the months and I'm sure it'll continue to. I have certainly worked on me but my main focus has been the kids. They'll always be #1, but I may need to balance it out a bit and start the work out routine again. Because I'm virtually and have a flex schedule at work I've been bending over backwards to spend my mornings and afternoons (before and after school) and Fridays with them on my "off weeks" when my W has to be in work to maintain that daily interaction, but that does wear on me a bit - I need to be a little better about carving out more time for myself.
BL,
It's normal to want to analyze and understand a problem. I would not focus on it very much unless you are truly gaining some ground there. I would also make it a point to manage your body and emotions through this situation. Don't think about your sitch after 9 pm, don't drink socially if you are going to be upset and call her, etc. From a lot of info I've read and heard, exercise is the best way to stifle depression and be happy. Do it every day.
Want to know how to gain respect? Be a man of your word, set strong boundaries, work hard and do what's right. If you have ever seen R2C post his links to confidence, attraction, respect, etc those would be good to read every day. Don't focus on things you can't control and certainly don't let those things bother you. For example, don't worry that you told your parents. Getting help when you need it is smart bc you have to take care of yourself. Did it do what Steve said too? Yes, but you didn't do it for her so no biggie IMO.
So what now? Go back to your core, figure out who you really are and who you really want to be. Pour your heart into that. Be a dad, a man, explore new hobbies, and make the most of this time you have. The "Gift of Time" saying meant little to me when I first came here but now I do see it differently. There's a silver lining here, and there is so much wisdom telling you to turn this into a positive, if you indeed want to be happy. Take a step, then another. That's how big changes happen. It won't be comfortable. I remember Cadet ( I think) telling me that most people don't make positive changes until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same. It really shows us how at odds we are with ourselves and our goals. You have to use your higher mind to over come your basic desires. That's morality in a nutshell. If doing the right thing was easier and fun it all the time then it wouldn't be so significant. Be smart and make those changes, control your emotions and do the right thing. I wish you well.
Great post ovr!
BL just yesterday I could, for the first time, really clearly see why my sitch happend.
To begin with M/R was a SSM since our first child and W is probably HD. That combined with me being NG and her not being good at talking about her feelings makes for a perfect case of building resentment and losing respect over the years.
It might take you a while but really do look to your core, your values and your behavior. Over time you will understand more and more.
"people don't make positive changes until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same."
Holy sh0t That's strong!
Also means my W will probably never change.
Yeah man I hate to say it, only because I hope my W will change her mind but a friend of mine who has been a psychologist, therapist and mental health nurse practioner for 30 years told me today that
"I quit doing therapy because only around 10% of people change, you spend years on them and they go back to doing the same things over and over"
In a way that gives me a slight bit of hope since my W has essentially "left me" about 5 times and come back every time. But then again Ill have to play my cards perfect and not give her an easy recon this time even if she does come back. because that 10% of people that get remarried MWD said sounds a lot like that 10% of people that actually change so not a whole lot, don't need her WAW/WW attitude coming back the second I GAL and finally heal from this mess and I'll bet that is what will happen, always has. At least this time I can see my NGS and change myself! I hope that's enough to create happiness either way. But the point is that true lasting change only comes when people hit that rock-bottom soul shifting consequence of what they have done. I stopped drinking so much when I got a DUI, that's all it took for me, went from getting hammered every day to stuff issues down to having a beer like twice a month took 1 day to change my life and hard truth. This divorce will do the same thing.
Yeah man I hate to say it, only because I hope my W will change her mind but a friend of mine who has been a psychologist, therapist and mental health nurse practioner for 30 years told me today that
"I quit doing therapy because only around 10% of people change, you spend years on them and they go back to doing the same things over and over"
In a way that gives me a slight bit of hope since my W has essentially "left me" about 5 times and come back every time. But then again Ill have to play my cards perfect and not give her an easy recon this time even if she does come back. because that 10% of people that get remarried MWD said sounds a lot like that 10% of people that actually change so not a whole lot, don't need her WAW/WW attitude coming back the second I GAL and finally heal from this mess and I'll bet that is what will happen, always has. At least this time I can see my NGS and change myself! I hope that's enough to create happiness either way. But the point is that true lasting change only comes when people hit that rock-bottom soul shifting consequence of what they have done. I stopped drinking so much when I got a DUI, that's all it took for me, went from getting hammered every day to stuff issues down to having a beer like twice a month took 1 day to change my life and hard truth. This divorce will do the same thing.
As a former alcoholic myself, you're playing with fire with by still having a beer or two a month. That is what your friend was talking about. Any time you ou put a drink to your lips you're in danger of over indulging. You're doing yourself if you think you control your drinking without completely stopping and resolving to never drink again.
The bottom line is that most people do not change because they don't want to.
Yeah man I hate to say it, only because I hope my W will change her mind but a friend of mine who has been a psychologist, therapist and mental health nurse practioner for 30 years told me today that
"I quit doing therapy because only around 10% of people change, you spend years on them and they go back to doing the same things over and over"
In a way that gives me a slight bit of hope since my W has essentially "left me" about 5 times and come back every time. But then again Ill have to play my cards perfect and not give her an easy recon this time even if she does come back. because that 10% of people that get remarried MWD said sounds a lot like that 10% of people that actually change so not a whole lot, don't need her WAW/WW attitude coming back the second I GAL and finally heal from this mess and I'll bet that is what will happen, always has. At least this time I can see my NGS and change myself! I hope that's enough to create happiness either way. But the point is that true lasting change only comes when people hit that rock-bottom soul shifting consequence of what they have done. I stopped drinking so much when I got a DUI, that's all it took for me, went from getting hammered every day to stuff issues down to having a beer like twice a month took 1 day to change my life and hard truth. This divorce will do the same thing.
As a former alcoholic myself, you're playing with fire with by still having a beer or two a month. That is what your friend was talking about. Any time you ou put a drink to your lips you're in danger of over indulging. You're doing yourself if you think you control your drinking without completely stopping and resolving to never drink again.
The bottom line is that most people do not change because they don't want to.
Just to be clear, this isn't related to my sitch at all - there is no alcohol factor involved. I do not have a drinking problem, nor does my W.
Yeah man I hate to say it, only because I hope my W will change her mind but a friend of mine who has been a psychologist, therapist and mental health nurse practioner for 30 years told me today that
"I quit doing therapy because only around 10% of people change, you spend years on them and they go back to doing the same things over and over"
In a way that gives me a slight bit of hope since my W has essentially "left me" about 5 times and come back every time. But then again Ill have to play my cards perfect and not give her an easy recon this time even if she does come back. because that 10% of people that get remarried MWD said sounds a lot like that 10% of people that actually change so not a whole lot, don't need her WAW/WW attitude coming back the second I GAL and finally heal from this mess and I'll bet that is what will happen, always has. At least this time I can see my NGS and change myself! I hope that's enough to create happiness either way. But the point is that true lasting change only comes when people hit that rock-bottom soul shifting consequence of what they have done. I stopped drinking so much when I got a DUI, that's all it took for me, went from getting hammered every day to stuff issues down to having a beer like twice a month took 1 day to change my life and hard truth. This divorce will do the same thing.
As a former alcoholic myself, you're playing with fire with by still having a beer or two a month. That is what your friend was talking about. Any time you ou put a drink to your lips you're in danger of over indulging. You're doing yourself if you think you control your drinking without completely stopping and resolving to never drink again.
The bottom line is that most people do not change because they don't want to.
Just to be clear, this isn't related to my sitch at all - there is no alcohol factor involved. I do not have a drinking problem, nor does my W.
Good to hear.
ovrrnbw,
It's normal to want to analyze and understand a problem. I would not focus on it very much unless you are truly gaining some ground there. I would also make it a point to manage your body and emotions through this situation. Don't think about your sitch after 9 pm, don't drink socially if you are going to be upset and call her, etc. From a lot of info I've read and heard, exercise is the best way to stifle depression and be happy. Do it every day.
I was doing really well in terms of diet and exercise but that's fallen off a bit. I've been focusing so much on being there for the kids in additional to my side of our "50/50" agreement, but agree additional focus on my own fitness and a regular exercise routine is needed.
Want to know how to gain respect? Be a man of your word, set strong boundaries, work hard and do what's right. If you have ever seen R2C post his links to confidence, attraction, respect, etc those would be good to read every day. Don't focus on things you can't control and certainly don't let those things bother you. For example, don't worry that you told your parents. Getting help when you need it is smart bc you have to take care of yourself. Did it do what Steve said too? Yes, but you didn't do it for her so no biggie IMO.
I've read R2C's posts but a refresher wouldn't hurt. I was already a man of my word who works hard and does what's right, but there's always room for improvement. I do feel like I needed to bring in my family, especially during COVID when there was very little GAL outlet, so it is what it is - maybe it'll hurt R chances but at this point I doubt very much R is a possibility let alone whether I'd want it.
So what now? Go back to your core, figure out who you really are and who you really want to be. Pour your heart into that. Be a dad, a man, explore new hobbies, and make the most of this time you have. The "Gift of Time" saying meant little to me when I first came here but now I do see it differently. There's a silver lining here, and there is so much wisdom telling you to turn this into a positive, if you indeed want to be happy. Take a step, then another. That's how big changes happen. It won't be comfortable. I remember Cadet ( I think) telling me that most people don't make positive changes until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same. It really shows us how at odds we are with ourselves and our goals. You have to use your higher mind to over come your basic desires. That's morality in a nutshell. If doing the right thing was easier and fun it all the time then it wouldn't be so significant. Be smart and make those changes, control your emotions and do the right thing. I wish you well.
Good thoughts, and thanks for the well wishes ovrrnbw. I'm working on it!
Mumin,
Great post ovr!
BL just yesterday I could, for the first time, really clearly see why my sitch happend.
To begin with M/R was a SSM since our first child and W is probably HD. That combined with me being NG and her not being good at talking about her feelings makes for a perfect case of building resentment and losing respect over the years.
It might take you a while but really do look to your core, your values and your behavior. Over time you will understand more and more.
SSM was an issue for me for quite awhile, I probably have a bit of NGS, and apparently W wasn't good at talking about her hurts and feelings...so guess resentment was building. Didn't realize it was anything to break up a marriage or family over though. Still not clear on the lack of respect - guess I'll gain better insight over time.
"people don't make positive changes until the pain of changing is less than the pain of staying the same."
Holy sh0t That's strong!
Also means my W will probably never change.
Mine either. But I'll work on myself. Thanks for reaching out, Mumin.
So I guess it's been three weeks since I've given a substantive update...
Encounter #2 with W's grandma for D2 pickup did not go well either. I had arranged in advance with W to pickup around 3:30 but when I showed up she did not want to let me take D2 and rather wanted me to wait an hour until W got home. I held firm and we want back and forth for 10 mins (I'm outside under an umbrella in the rain) and W had to call multiple times to communicate with her grandma. Finally I got D2 and went for dinner. Fortunately encounter #3 went smoothly as W's grandma and D2 were outside already and I picked up D2 and left. W had another conversation with grandma and apparently the message got across.
Otherwise I've been trying to balance work and the kids on the weeks I have them (and before/after school even on my off weeks) and staying busy / GAL'ing when possible. I got a ton of work done around the house this weekend, both inside and out, and went to a friends' house as the 7th wheel for dinner and games Saturday night.
Two items of note:
-Received an email from my L a judge is assigned to our case and preliminary conference is scheduled next month for the Ls and judge.
-Tonight, completely by accident (was not searching it out/snooping), I came across a picture on SM of my W at a mutual friend's house with OM2 in the background stroking her hair. It's even more of a confirmation. I definitely got me heated and brought out some anger. Our children are upstairs sleeping in bed and she'd rather be somewhere else with someone else. I know the kids have hung out with him, and that angers me too. Not sure what else to say but if the goal of detachment is not to care when I hear something like W getting married or pregnant by another man, I'm certainly not there yet. I do pretty well over the week, but things like this still rile me up. Guess I have work to do. I've avoided dating at all so far to make sure the kids are my #1 and also work through all this in my heart/head.
Interesting with the grandma. Just shows how much these things put others in the middle of all of this.
As far as seeing your W with OM on SM.
First, SM is one of the biggest triggers to LBSs. I suggest avoiding all SM until you get to a better place. No good can come from it. And it really sets you back. I know you insist you weren't snooping, but come on. A small piece of you probably was. So just avoid the temptation altogether, and get off SM for the next few months at a minimum. (I advocate deleting SM accounts completely and never looking back, but for some reason people see SM as a necessity these days.)
Work on detachment (google: self-differentiation), it is so much of a healthier place to be.
What is the board's consensus regarding talking to spouses about introducing kids to dating partners?
To be clear, I have not engaged in any dating and even if I had would not plan to introduce that person to the kids until far down the road. However, it's come to my attention W is onto OM2 and has had him around the kids at certain events including the birthday party she had for D2 (he's the brother of a friend of hers, which is the cover).
Should I:
A) Broach the topic generally: E.g., "I understand we both may meet and date other people but think it's important for the children's emotional well-being they not get attached, confused, exposed to someone else prematurely and we should agree to discuss with each other before either of us introduces someone to them."
B) Address the situation specifically: E.g., "I understand you're dating someone and the kids have been around him. I think it would be better for the kids if we don't introduce them to the people we're dating until much further down the line."
OR
C) Ignore the topic all together because it's likely she won't listen to me / respect the opinion (as she's already doing it anyway) and will see it as a push/controlling behavior.
I'm debating between A & C at the moment. I understand there's nothing I can do legally to prevent it but it's also important to voice my concerns about the children's' upbringing.
C
Here is the problem. Even if she agrees what happens if she goes back on it and introduces them on her own? What are you going to do? Jump up and down and scream and yell?
C unless you think the person or relationship is hurting the children in some way.
If you go with A you put it this way "My view on TOPICx is...." and then you leave it at that.
Pretty much forget about it, because you cant control it.
LH19/Steve85/Ready2Change/ovrrnbw/Mumin,
Thanks for responding. Looks like a unanimous "don't talk to W about it". It's just hard because I want to stand up for what's best for my kids and don't think the latest man on the scene should be introduced / spending time with him so soon.
I failed at DB'ing tonight. No, I didn't reach out to W at all but D2 came back from dinner with W's smart watch on so I snooped. The conversations were just like the ones with AP/OM1 6 months ago, only a different man/name to the texts. 100% confirmed emotional/physical affair with OM2, and apparently she's going on "double dates" with other couples I know. The most infuriating part is apparently she's sneaking him in after putting the kids to bed. What if they wake up and find mommy with another man??? S5 is already sad and angry - tearing up again today when hearing about mommy - he never used to be this way.
I know. I shouldn't have snooped. It doesn't help the situation and doesn't help me detaching - I'm riled up and shaking a bit - but had to know the full truth. At this point I recognize and accept W is not good for me anymore, but I absolutely hate what it's doing to our kids.
LH19/Steve85/Ready2Change/ovrrnbw/Mumin,
Thanks for responding. Looks like a unanimous "don't talk to W about it". It's just hard because I want to stand up for what's best for my kids and don't think the latest man on the scene should be introduced / spending time with him so soon.
I failed at DB'ing tonight. No, I didn't reach out to W at all but D2 came back from dinner with W's smart watch on so I snooped. The conversations were just like the ones with AP/OM1 6 months ago, only a different man/name to the texts. 100% confirmed emotional/physical affair with OM2, and apparently she's going on "double dates" with other couples I know. The most infuriating part is apparently she's sneaking him in after putting the kids to bed. What if they wake up and find mommy with another man??? S5 is already sad and angry - tearing up again today when hearing about mommy - he never used to be this way.
I know. I shouldn't have snooped. It doesn't help the situation and doesn't help me detaching - I'm riled up and shaking a bit - but had to know the full truth. At this point I recognize and accept W is not good for me anymore, but I absolutely hate what it's doing to our kids.
Unless OM is a threat to the children (registered sex offender or convicted child abuser) there isn't much you can do. She can introduce her kids to anyone she wants. Unfortunately that is how these things work. You have no control over it so stop obsessing over what you have no control over.
You just posted in my thread that you feel you are doing much better on detachment.......but this update ain't even close. So pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back to DBing. Focus on what you can control: YOU. GAL, 180s, detachment. I'd love to see an update on how well you are doing those things.
Steve85,
Unless OM is a threat to the children (registered sex offender or convicted child abuser) there isn't much you can do. She can introduce her kids to anyone she wants. Unfortunately that is how these things work. You have no control over it so stop obsessing over what you have no control over.
Hard to accept, but guess I'll have to - don't think it's right to be introducing kids to another partner at this point, let alone having him over on night she has the kids.
You just posted in my thread that you feel you are doing much better on detachment.......but this update ain't even close. So pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back to DBing. Focus on what you can control: YOU. GAL, 180s, detachment. I'd love to see an update on how well you are doing those things.
I read your post on detachment in your thread and my response meant to convey it was perfect timing for me because I recognize failing with that very aspect of DB'ing last night - just meant to tell PLC while I'm doing better over the months, I still have lows.
In terms of focusing on me, I'm trying to do house projects and getting out to do activities with friends when I don't have the kids. I've struggled finding time to exercise, and need to get better there. I'm doing my best to be there for the kids and bending over backwards to see them before/after school (even on my "off" weeks), so that's been a lot to juggle, but they need the stability and 100% focus my W isn't giving them.
I definitely made a mistake snooping last night. The opportunity presented itself and despite the warnings/rules I gave in to temptation and confirmed what I was told / strongly suspected. But now I'm hurting badly. It feels like I regressed back to 5 months ago during AP/OM1. I had made a lot of progress over the months but am hurting personally again...and also worried about the kids. At least back then the they weren't exposed to W's OM or in the same house. Guess I still have a lot of work to do.
BL,
Don’t be too hard on yourself. Detaching is not easy and takes time. Steve does the majority of the posting on here and gives the impression that it is easy. If you go read his early posts he was horrible at detachment. You will have setbacks along the way. In DB you are still early in your situation. Just know that the feelings you are having will pass.
I’m sorry you’re struggling tonight.
Just for the record, I never meant to give the impression, nor have I ever said that detachment is easy. It is a WiP. You have to work at it to get good at it, and to eventually get to it naturally. BL, nothing can impact your sitch more, and have a more profound effect on you as the LBS as getting good at detachment. This is why Cadet's welcome message emphasizes it. LH is right, I like many LBSs, struggled with it initially and made a lot of mistakes. When I did detachment well the impact was amazing.
BL, one last thing. The detachment thread, linked below, was daily reading for me! I read it several times a day most days in the thick of my sitch.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Again, working on this and getting better at it has an amazing effect on you as the LBS. And sometimes it can have a profound effect on your sitch. It certainly did in mine.
BL read up on stoicism and (perhaps more important) Amor Fati.
IT was mentioned on the board a few days ago and has helped me in viewing the world and things happening to me, which for me makes detachment easier.
This goes against what most say here, but IMO,if your child gets upset about OM then you can bring THAT up with W to say YOUR VIEW on things. It depends on the situation. However as mentioned here it is always better to "drop the rope" completely since you can never control it.
BL read up on stoicism and (perhaps more important) Amor Fati.
IT was mentioned on the board a few days ago and has helped me in viewing the world and things happening to me, which for me makes detachment easier.
This goes against what most say here, but IMO,if your child gets upset about OM then you can bring THAT up with W to say YOUR VIEW on things. It depends on the situation. However as mentioned here it is always better to "drop the rope" completely since you can never control it.
So he says "I don't want kids around OM."
She takes them around OM anyway.
Did that make him look strong or weak?
I was not clear. Thanks Steve for pointing that out.
So, IF your kids are strongly impacted in some way you can tell her what YOU have seen/heard and voice a consern or as I wrote earlier say how you view things. These things IMO are part of co-parenting. But you can never control her and should never tell her what to do or how to do things on her time.
Unless abuse of course.
LH19/Steve86/Mumin,
Thanks for the thoughts. Detachment is definitely not easy after a decade, especially having to still deal with each other for the kids, but I'll read the thread again and work on it.
Last night I spoke to a friend who is an attorney in this field in my state to get a second (legal) opinion on OM2/kids. I thought about reaching out shortly after BD but held back because this person is a "mutual" friend and didn't want to damage the relationship. Anyway, my friend said it's completely inappropriate for OM2 to be at a D2's birthday party and coming over to the house at nights on W's weeks with the kids so soon and said clients are counseled NOT to have people they're dating over when the kids are around during divorce and my L could send a letter to W's lawyer stating we understand it's going on and ask it to stop to get it on record.
Not sure it buys me much in terms of the D, but could spook her (forgive the Halloween pun) in the short term into stopping it until more time has gone / things are more settled for the kids.
I'm going to consult my L about it next week and follow his legal advice. My only hesitation is not sure it's the right approach from a DB'ing perspective, as it might cause her to feel watched / controlled...etc., and escalate things in the D rather than a more reasonable negotiation.
Thoughts?
LH19/Steve86/Mumin,
Thanks for the thoughts. Detachment is definitely not easy after a decade, especially having to still deal with each other for the kids, but I'll read the thread again and work on it.
Last night I spoke to a friend who is an attorney in this field in my state to get a second (legal) opinion on OM2/kids. I thought about reaching out shortly after BD but held back because this person is a "mutual" friend and didn't want to damage the relationship. Anyway, my friend said it's completely inappropriate for OM2 to be at a D2's birthday party and coming over to the house at nights on W's weeks with the kids so soon and said clients are counseled NOT to have people they're dating over when the kids are around during divorce and my L could send a letter to W's lawyer stating we understand it's going on and ask it to stop to get it on record.
Not sure it buys me much in terms of the D, but could spook her (forgive the Halloween pun) in the short term into stopping it until more time has gone / things are more settled for the kids.
I'm going to consult my L about it next week and follow his legal advice. My only hesitation is not sure it's the right approach from a DB'ing perspective, as it might cause her to feel watched / controlled...etc., and escalate things in the D rather than a more reasonable negotiation.
Thoughts?
It is never part of DBing to do anything to elicit a reaction from her. And you're trying to control something you don't have control over. Notice your friend said inappropriate, not illegal. I wouldn't doubt if your lawyer told you just that.
Incidentally, this friend/L's sister did the same thing to her husband and 2 young kids in the past year that W is doing to me and our young kids. Was having an A with a co-worker, husband standing by for her, but her refusing to stop....said she'd keep doing it until the end of the school year because they'd be working together. Unreal. Her family (divorced parents, my friend/L...etc.) are completely horrified of her behavior and on the side of the father (who isn't their blood) and staged an intervention to explain how they regret their own divorce and she should return to her family. Sounds like they tried to mend things for a bit during COVID but husband got tired of the sitch and they've since separated. Friend/L said she's heartbroken over sister's actions, but that they reminded her exactly of what I described with my W (and vice versa) in that it almost seemed like she was addicted to a drug. I told her, yeah...dopamine.
BL read up on stoicism and (perhaps more important) Amor Fati.
IT was mentioned on the board a few days ago and has helped me in viewing the world and things happening to me, which for me makes detachment easier.
Eckhart Tolle's work goes along a similar vein. Accept the present like you have chosen it yourself. The future does not yet exist, so you how can you be afraid, anxious, worried about it.
The kids & I had a great Halloween. I had a pizza party at my house for two couples and their children in the afternoon and then we all went around the neighborhood trick-or-treating. It's great seeing my son so excited for the festivities and interact with the other kids.
I'm flexing my work schedule so even on my "off" weeks I see my son every day for an hour before school and two hours afterwards, plus both kids every Friday while W is at work. It's tiring to juggle it all, but well worth it.
Trying to make the most of my free time this weekend. Friday night a buddy came over for a beer. I went out to a nice dinner with ten other friends last night, and am off to golf this afternoon with three buddies. I'm also working projects around the house to stay busy. I have a list on my phone which I add items to whenever something comes up and enjoy checking them off. Yesterday I moved all the kids' toys from the living room back into their playroom/bedrooms, then replaced the rug and ottoman and bought a stone electric fireplace - love the results. I had the girlfriends of my buddies weighing in on the decor and plans for the master bedroom.
B,
This all sounds like good stuff. You’re doing great!
The living room makeover (rug, ottoman, fireplace) was a bit of a 180 for me, as usually I'd just be complacent with things as-is, but I'm really the look and straightened up adult looks, and the kids like it too. S5 has been asking to turn the fireplace on in the mornings/nights. On Sunday evening when W dropped the kids back off she noticed it and said "Wow, that looks great". It caught me off-guard a bit so I just smiled and said "thanks" and welcomed the kids home. I'm not sure she realized she was complimenting me until after it already came out of her mouth.
My mom watched the kids today while I worked and they had a great time doing art projects, playing games, and making snow cones. She had promised S5 a new snow coat/pants/boots for Winter and snow cones when they arrived, so he was excited. However, she told me tonight S5 asked her when he'd see mommy again and when she said Sunday he replied: "That's too long. I miss mommy when I'm with daddy and I miss daddy when I'm with mommy. I'm just sad and missing people all the time." Again, he's opening up with my mom as opposed to me (and I'm assuming my W and others). My mom is his safe person. I suppose that's good he has someone to express his feelings to, and it's good she told me about it because I need to know, but boy does it break my heart to hear it - I hate that he's sad and missing our former family. A 5yo shouldn't have to deal with that. We're just going to keep doing everything we can to be there for S5 and D2 and make them feel loved.
A mutual friend of me and my W asked this weekend if I was interested to go out on a date with someone he and his wife know, but I told him I really just need to focus on the kids right now. Considering W is dating someone already while married and very shortly after moving out, having him around...etc. the last thing they need right now is daddy to add instability to their lives and not have their undivided attention. I am sad and lonely sometimes in the evenings after the kids go to bed, but I'm trying to make sure they're my #1 priority as well as trying to follow the advice of the board members to work on myself first and avoid a "broken attracts broken" situation.
A mutual friend of me and my W asked this weekend if I was interested to go out on a date with someone he and his wife know, but I told him I really just need to focus on the kids right now. Considering W is dating someone already while married and very shortly after moving out, having him around...etc. the last thing they need right now is daddy to add instability to their lives and not have their undivided attention. I am sad and lonely sometimes in the evenings after the kids go to bed, but I'm trying to make sure they're my #1 priority as well as trying to follow the advice of the board members to work on myself first and avoid a "broken attracts broken" situation.
LOVE IT! Great attitude. You have the rest of your life to date, no need to jump into it now. Especially considering that you are no place to really open up and be with someone new right now anyway. Some other LBSs should read you perspective on this and realize what you already are realizing!
And the mutual friend is typical. Thinking applying the band-aid of dating someone new to the severed limb that is the end of a MR is all too common these days. The people that do that are just setting themselves up for the same issues later down the line.
A mutual friend of me and my W asked this weekend if I was interested to go out on a date with someone he and his wife know, but I told him I really just need to focus on the kids right now.
Good for you!
Rough time at drop off last night. I turned onto W's street 4-5 mins early (i.e., not much) and OM2's truck was at her house. I felt a little panic with S5 and D2 in the car and had to make a quick decision on how to handle the situation. I did not want to drop the kids off with OM2 at the house, potentially seeing W kiss him goodbye so I kept on driving. S5 asked why we passed W's house and were going a different way. I texted W to ask "Are you going to have him leave before the kids show up?" and circled the neighborhood for awhile, then turned back and pulled up as OM2's truck was driving away. I dropped off the kids and didn't say anything to W. I don't know if she saw the text before drop off or after I left, but regardless she's now aware I know there's OM2.
W hadn't seen the kids for 5 days and had an entire week/weekend with this guy. It's not like I showed up an hour or two early. Drop off is the same time every single week. Why can't she ask him to leave 15-20mins, or god forbid a half hour earlier so the kids aren't impacted??? Why would she invite him to D2's birthday party a month ago, and have him over on nights she has the kids. It seems so inappropriate just 2-3 months after moving out. The kids don't need this right now. They need our focus and as much stability as is possible during this situation.
I was pretty worked up after that and called family and friends. Met up with two friends for a beer and talked it out and they calmed me down a bit. It just seems so selfish. Sure, I deserve more too but me aside the kids shouldn't have to deal with this. Earlier in the day S5 was sad/quiet holding back tears and I asked if he missed mommy and he nodded and said mommy is lonely when I'm not there. Of course I did not say this (the kids need to be protected, not hear me vent) but thoughts of anger flashed in my mind thinking "mommy isn't lonely - she's with another man all weekend and would rather be with him than us". I admit it hurts me too and I'm not fully detached, but the impact on the kids really burns me.
You can control her BL. Shes a selfish idiot right now (maybe always was). You need to realize she wont be following your expectations or any agreements. If you read other threads you'll see this behavior is common for WW.
What did you reply to S5 in the car?
IMO it is totally OK (and frankly I suggest) for you to calm down your kids and tell them mommy is doing fine.
Tell them you dont know exactly what she is doing but assure them she is ok. Make sure to explain to them it is in no way their fault.
Mumin,
You can control her BL. Shes a selfish idiot right now (maybe always was). You need to realize she wont be following your expectations or any agreements. If you read other threads you'll see this behavior is common for WW.
What did you reply to S5 in the car?
IMO it is totally OK (and frankly I suggest) for you to calm down your kids and tell them mommy is doing fine.
Tell them you dont know exactly what she is doing but assure them she is ok. Make sure to explain to them it is in no way their fault.
Honestly don't remember exactly what I said to S5 - just tried to play it off and deflect a little. I certainly didn't give the detailed truth or speak ill of their mother. The whole point of driving past was to avoid them having an awkward encounter. The kids weren't necessarily worked up like I was, more like curious/confused. S5 is very smart and observant and knew something was up/different without me saying a word.
Hectic week. I still have S5 for 1-2hrs before and 1-2hrs after school even on my "off" weeks, both kids for dinner Wednesday night, coaching S5's soccer team Thursday, and both kids all day Friday...all on my "off" weeks. I'm fortunate to have all the "extra" time with the kids (on top of the 50/50) and wouldn't have it any other way but it does make it stressful at times with work trying to flex around it all.
On top of all that, I met with my attorney on Thursday and had to prepare financial documents. Had a parent/teacher conference for S5 on Friday, and had a consultation with another attorney on Friday afternoon (a 3rd opinion really). They all confirmed the law/state does not care who had the affair, initiated the divorce, or cares for the kids more (so long as the nights are equal), and will not step in to keep OM2 away from kids (as the board said). My attorney and the other consulted attorney said they could send a letter about it and maybe it would scare her off from having him around for now but runs the risk of her doing it even more to flaunt it (i.e., rebellious nature) or fighting harder on finances. It's almost as if the law favors the offending party at the expense of the aggrieved spouse. Totally backwards.
In terms of GAL, Friday night I met up with a buddy for pizza & wings but there wasn't a lot going on Saturday & Sunday so I was a bit sad and lonely. I just tried to stay busy clearing out the garage and basement and dividing up the Christmas decorations.
The preliminary conference for our divorce is scheduled this afternoon with the judge and our attorneys. It's mostly perfunctory; the judge schedules out dates for certain documents....etc. We'll see how it goes...
BL hang in there. Better days are ahead.
Nice update. Good luck this afternoon.
The preliminary conference was yesterday afternoon. Judge, both Ls, and I were on the virtual call; W was not. Normally the parties are required to attend but they've adjusted the rules due to COVID. It was mostly logistical items. Still, I'm glad I was there because it gave me a sense for the process, the judge, and W's attorney. There were also a few issues my W raised through her lawyer in a pre-conference letter, which I had already addressed, and being there could speak to it (my L said those letters are rare and it seemed like silly issues to raise), so perhaps I came across as the more reasonable party. Judge made it clear he prefers W & I settle most of the details (E.g., holiday schedule) and wouldn't be thrilled to rule on those type of matters - 99% of cases do not go to trial. W had not yet submitted her required financial documents, even though technically they were due 10 days before the conference, so we're waiting on that, any discovery requests, and her (as the plaintiff) to make the first offer in negotiations.
Time keeps passing by. It's now 9.5 months since BD and 4.5 months since W filed for D without any signs of hesitation on her part. I still have moments of attachment (when I see her at drop off, or hear something about OM2) I need to work on but honestly think if not for the kids I'd be completely over it at this point, considering her lies and deceit this year. I know I'll be fine personally, financially, relationship-wise in the long run but still wish the kids didn't have to deal with the disruption and could grow up a loving, two-parent household.
By the way, I want to echo what sandi said to you above, related to saying no thanks to the offer to date and focusing on your kids! Well done sir, this is such a better path than trying to self-medicate with dating others. There will be plenty of time later to date. The key here is to get yourself in a better place emotionally and set yourself for future R success! Kudos to you, there are a lot of posters that have made/are making the wrong decision in this regard. As we've seen it hardly ever ends well.
...but still wish the kids didn't have to deal with the disruption and could grow up in a loving, two-parent household.
To bad some things are out of our control. The part that is in our control is how we love our kids while they are moving between two households.
BL, just read through your sitch, and the similarities with my situation are astounding. The ages correspond, the kids ages correspond, the only difference is that I have an older daughter and a younger son.
I did not recap my sitch in my own thread, but tried to offer my advice and insight on other people's threads. These boards have helped me so much in understanding WTH was going on and really saved my sanitiy when the situation was bleak.
It is 6 years post BD for me, kids are doing well and me and my Ex coparent well. I did not manage to rescue my marriage, but I rescued myself. Both me and my ex are in relationships and Ex's boyfriend is a decent guy. Obviously he is not the guy for whom my Ex left me, so really I can't blame the guy for anything.
The relationship with the Ex is all about the children and that suits me just fine. From the rebelious self (female dog) from the first months/years post BD she's calmed down and resembles my W again. That being said, I would not want any romantic dealings with the Ex ever again. Post BD I did some work on myself and I discovered I was worth more and was underappreciatedin my marriage. I suffered from Nice guy syndrome and badly. I had some other issues and it is a fact that I also contributed to the demise of my marriage.
But water under the bridge. New life, new challenges ahead.
Take care buddy, you are not alone, and you have some of the finest, nicest, most knowledgeble posters in your corner. Esp. Sandi is very valuable, because of her insight into a female mind, priceless.
V
Vapo,
Thanks for reaching out. I've said this before in my thread, but it's amazing how reading others' sitches and especially having others post in your thread is so helpful. It's a nice feeling to see a new reply from another poster and realize someone you don't even know in person cares enough to weigh in with advice and support.
BL, just read through your sitch, and the similarities with my situation are astounding. The ages correspond, the kids ages correspond, the only difference is that I have an older daughter and a younger son.
I did not recap my sitch in my own thread, but tried to offer my advice and insight on other people's threads. These boards have helped me so much in understanding WTH was going on and really saved my sanitiy when the situation was bleak.
This confused me a bit. Do you have a thread for your sitch? If so, I'm going to find the time this weekend to read it.
It is 6 years post BD for me, kids are doing well and me and my Ex coparent well. I did not manage to rescue my marriage, but I rescued myself. Both me and my ex are in relationships and Ex's boyfriend is a decent guy. Obviously he is not the guy for whom my Ex left me, so really I can't blame the guy for anything.
It's crazy for me to imagine being 6 years post-BD right now, but then it's been nearly 10 months already and that's difficult to believe. Looking back it's gone by so quickly yet in the first few months it felt like it would never end.
Glad to hear you're co-parenting well. W & I are doing alright so far (imo) though we're going to have to come to agreement on the holiday schedule which is coming up soon. I'm fortunate to be able to see my kids (especially son) way more often than I would otherwise (due to school/work schedules).
If I'm being honest part of me still hopes it won't work with my W & OM2 either so she has to start clean after the D. It would irk me a bit right now if she stayed with someone she had an affair with during our marriage, but I recognize I need to work on detachment and not worry about that.
The relationship with the Ex is all about the children and that suits me just fine. From the rebelious self (female dog) from the first months/years post BD she's calmed down and resembles my W again. That being said, I would not want any romantic dealings with the Ex ever again. Post BD I did some work on myself and I discovered I was worth more and was underappreciatedin my marriage. I suffered from Nice guy syndrome and badly. I had some other issues and it is a fact that I also contributed to the demise of my marriage.
Is it weird for you that she seemingly reverted back to normal and resembles your wife but is now with another guy instead of you? LIke...if she had reverted quicker the marriage could've worked out and family stayed together? I don't know what my (or my W's future) will bring, but I could imagine that would be strange for me. I believe I was under appreciated quite a bit in my marriage...but I guess my W felt that way too. I already can't imagine reconciling due to everything W has done. During AP/OM1 I was ready to forgive but she went right on to OM2 without blinking and moved out and filed for D. I think the anger and resentment would rise up and it would be hard to respect myself / have my friends and family respect me. Mostly any reconciliation at this point (not that she has any interest in that) would be for the kids but as I'm seeing the amount of time I have with them and how they're adjusting (S5 still has his moments), the "for the kids" aspect lessens.
But water under the bridge. New life, new challenges ahead.
Take care buddy, you are not alone, and you have some of the finest, nicest, most knowledgeble posters in your corner. Esp. Sandi is very valuable, because of her insight into a female mind, priceless.
V
Appreciate the words of support greatly! I'm making progress for sure, but still have a ways to go. Best of luck to you as well!
This confused me a bit. Do you have a thread for your sitch? If so, I'm going to find the time this weekend to read it.
Nope, I did not start any threads on these boards.
BL, time heals all wounds. Admittedly, every wounds heals at a different rate, but eventually even the worst wounds heals. Obviously, proper care can speed the healing (IC, DBing, etc). But the Vapo that posts here today is in a completely different place than the one 6 years ago. I am 3 years past BD, in piecing and Ring, and you cannot even compare me to where I was 3 years ago.
10 months is a long time. It also is a drop in the bucket for most of these things. You obviously still have a lot of work to do, and you admit this. Worrying about whether STBXW and OM work out or not is not healthy. Just keep working on that detachment and moving on. Plenty of LBSs skip the work and then are set back when their XW marry the OM, or start dating someone they don't approve of, etc. Proper detachment says "Her crazy is no longer my crazy." And wouldn't give two craps what the XW is doing.
So keep doing the work. Keep posting here. Keep moving forward. All this will be in the rearview mirror one day.
Steve85,
BL, time heals all wounds. Admittedly, every wounds heals at a different rate, but eventually even the worst wounds heals. Obviously, proper care can speed the healing (IC, DBing, etc). But the Vapo that posts here today is in a completely different place than the one 6 years ago. I am 3 years past BD, in piecing and Ring, and you cannot even compare me to where I was 3 years ago.
10 months is a long time. It also is a drop in the bucket for most of these things. You obviously still have a lot of work to do, and you admit this.
It's interesting to read through threads and get a sense for posters' progress. I can personally feel the improvement over the past 6 months, so I'm sure you and Vapo are right that in 3yrs or 6yrs it'll be even better.
Worrying about whether STBXW and OM work out or not is not healthy. Just keep working on that detachment and moving on. Plenty of LBSs skip the work and then are set back when their XW marry the OM, or start dating someone they don't approve of, etc. Proper detachment says "Her crazy is no longer my crazy." And wouldn't give two craps what the XW is doing.
I'm reminded of an old movie quote I read on the board (but can't find where) that said "the only win to win is not play the game". I sent an email to W this week about some Holiday logistics and reminded her St. Nicholas Day is this weekend while she has the kids and that S5 is very aware and excited and asked if she was doing anything (for S5's sake). Her response shocked me. It was so angry. She said "did you really think you needed need to remind me..." and "I don't understand why you would think..." it's "absolutely insulting". I was simply trying to communicate some conversations I had with S5 to make her aware and be a good co-parent in good faith, but she was insulted. I don't really understand or how to respond to that. I guess I need to get better "not play the game".
So keep doing the work. Keep posting here. Keep moving forward. All this will be in the rearview mirror one day.
Will do, thanks Steve! I believe that, and am working towards it!
Last week the kids were with me except for Thanksgiving Day and we had a great time. I took off from work Wednesday and Friday when S5 was off from school, so I had 4 full days dedicated to them. We did Christmas tree pancakes the one morning then went to the tree farm and decorated for Christmas - S5 and D2 were into it. We drove around to various Christmas light displays 3 different evenings, went on a nature hike, and had a sleep over in sleeping bags at my parents' house one night. On Thursday the kids were with their mother so I painted the master bedroom to stay busy and keep improving the house and then went over to my parents' house for Thanksgiving dinner and had a relaxing "adult" meal and conversation with them, without having to cut up food and feed two youngsters.
Sunday when I drove to drop the kids off at Ws house OM2 was driving away. I did an extra circle around the block to "see more Christmas lights" so the kids wouldn't encounter him. It didn't feel great, but much better than the first time it happened two weeks ago.
I continue to see S5 every day before and after school. I had the kids for dinner Wednesday and was proud of myself - the 3 of us sat around the table and ate a good healthy meal together (grilled chicken, broccolli...etc.) with a table clothes and advent wreath candle lit! Last night I coached S5's soccer team.
This weekend I'm getting my hair cut, meeting up with friends at a new brewery tonight, making my grandma's recipe for a homemade apple pie with my mom, and then going to a "Friendsgiving" on Saturday with 4 close couples. I'll try to keep working on the house during any down time and need to get out for a run or hike as well.
Yeah that was me that quoted that. It is from the movie Wargames. "The only way to win the game is to not play at all!" The computer in the movie learns that from playing itself in tic-tac-toe over and over again.
W filed her Statement of Net Worth with the court. No major surprises. She has a modest amount of money in checking/savings accounts, but although I've given her the equivalent of her mortgage and a new car payment in child support each of the last 6 months (despite caring for the kids more than her), she has racked up 3x that amount in credit card balances and a significant amount in loans for things like a central air system, new windows, elective surgery...etc. She'll likely get a portion of cash in the settlement which will help defray those debts, but will likely start out in the red. Her mom/step-dad are well off though and will likely keep her on the payroll like they do with her younger brother (they're already financing her divorce lawyer).
W had been diverting money from her paycheck into a personal account during the first affair / in-house separation bragging to AP that I didn't even know (though I did), but it doesn't really matter from a legal perspective - it's marital property regardless. She also claimed ownership of a necklace I had made for her with my grandmother's/great-grandmother's diamonds, but is allowing me to hold onto it for safe keeping for my daughter (how generous).
The statement didn't estimate values for things like the houses, furniture...etc., so time will tell what the negotiations will bring. According to my attorney, we're waiting for her & her lawyer to make the first offer (as the plaintiffs). I had significant amount of pre-marital assets and fortunately we reside in an "equitable distribution" as opposed to a "community property" state, so thankfully I'll retain the vast majority of finances.
BL, I am glad to see you looking at this from a business perspective. That speaks to your detachment. Good job. Glad to hear that things should end up favorable for you. Now you can concentrate on being the best dad you can be!
Thanks Steve, I'm trying.
In terms of social media I removed my W as a follower of my Instagram account and unfollowed hers as well. Initially I thought we should "stay friends" on those SM platforms so we could see pictures of the kids but I'm spending way more than 50/50 with them anyway and don't really care to see her pictures of them regardless. Facebook is a bit trickier because to date we've been using that to video call with the kids on "off" weeks, so I'll need to look into how to handle that, but she hasn't been posting much if at all this year (I'm assuming because of the sitch) so there's no real urgency.
S5 just told my mom that OM2 stays overnight at mommy's house and sleeps in her bed and they all eat breakfast together in the morning. He said mommy stays up late because of OM2. I'm spinning a bit right now: sad, angry, resigned. It just seems so inappropriate to introduce the kids to another person right now let alone essentially moving in and sleeping in her bed while the kids are there. I know from other sitches/posters on this board it happens and I can't control it, but it [censored]. Sure it was inevitable down the line, but so soon? Hate me for whatever reason, but be respectful of the kids. I've reached out to attorneys but it doesn't seem like there's anything to do.
Sorry man. I know it's tough but you have to let it go.
Better days are ahead.
This morning in bed D2 said "Where's OM2?", and S5 responded "I don't know, either at mommy's house or his house."
I just kept quiet about it, but this [censored]. I flashed to images in my mind of D2 having a father/daughter dance together at her wedding. I know it's ridiculous to imagine something like that two or three decades away, but this is going to be a long hard road.
I'm considering having a conversation with my W regarding the kids and OM2 staying overnight when they're there and having breakfast together. I doubt she'll change her behavior but it seems wrong to let it go unaddressed as if nothing is going on, with D2 mentioning him and S5 telling my mom about him and seemingly unsettled. It feels like a situation where a dad should stand up for what's right for his kids.
This is honestly not a ploy to have an R talk, it's solely related to the kids best interests - I don't see why any extra curriculars can't go on without them around until down the road.
I have a feeling what people here will say, but...thoughts?
B,
So I understand where you are coming from and how you feel about it. I see no issues with you voicing your concern to her. I just wouldn’t except anything to change. She’s doesn’t see anything wrong with it.
The problem with saying something is that there is nothing you can do about it (unless OM2 is a registered sex offender. So you will end up coming across weak and petty. You're better off letting it go.
As Steve pointed out, there is really nothing you can do. And appealing to the WAW's sense of decency is an excercise in futility...
I'm considering having a conversation with my W regarding the kids and OM2 staying overnight when they're there and having breakfast together....thoughts?
Sounds like control.
We all understand where you are coming from. IMHO Best option is to not bring it up. You can't control it.
If you do bring it up, She and OM will laugh together about how silly you are behaving.
It's been a few weeks...mostly preoccupied due to wrapping up work for the year, prepping for and actually enjoying the holidays.
The week prior to Christmas was stressful and upsetting. Following LH19/Steve85/Vapo/Ready2Change's comments, I did not confront W about OM2 staying over with the kids, as enraging as it is for me to think about. However, my F-I-L called that week (I assumed regarding logistics for the kids) but because he was upset with our Christmas plans. I explained I had nothing against him or S-M-I-L, but due to the divorce we have to negotiate and split up time with the kids on birthdays and holidays, and W & I had disagreements on that. He was taken aback when I told him in my last communication with W I did offer to compromise and have her bring the kids to their place (he said, "oh I didn't know that") and must've called W later that night because I got another email trying to change plans. I agreed, and am glad I did now because I'll have more time with the kids next Christmas. Anyway, that phone call also led to a discussion about OM2 (according to him at least he's had two run ins by happen stance and wasn't treated warmly either time). And step-MIL called later and I finally had to tell her we needed to stop talking because between discussions with my parents, them, the stress of the divorce and Holidays I'm just trying to detach and move on.
We did have a major snow storm so I picked up S5, as I promised to take him sledding, and OM2 was there. I made a snide comment "Hey OM2, aren't you going to say hello?". W glared at me, and I just smiled back. Probably wasn't great DB'ing but it felt good and a bit Alpha. I mean if he can move in with a married woman and her kids he can at least have the balls not to pretend he's not there, right?
Fortunately Christmas week itself with the kids was absolutely wonderful. We had a fantastic time; it truly warmed my heart. I took S5 and D2 to church on Christmas Eve by myself, which I was a bit nervous about but they were very well behaved and it went fine. Then we drove to see lights, had dinner with my parents, and did the usual read "Twas the Night Before Christmas", put out cookies for Santa, and get into bed routine. I stayed up until 1:30 playing Santa and S5 woke up at 3:50. I said "oh no...no way!" and got him to fall back asleep and "sleep in" until 6am LOL. Both kids LOVED their presents - as excited and happy as a parent would hope - and I got a lot of it on video for posterity. We played with their gifts all day, and had a blast. That weekend my sister, her husband, and my niece visited for the first time in awhile (due to COVID) and the cousins had a grand time. I truly had a wonderful Christmas with my family (children, parents, sister's family) despite the on-going sitch.
This past week of New Years I mostly relaxed and rested. For the first time in quite awhile I didn't have work OR have the kids at all because W was off (I typically have them before/after school and Fridays even during W's week). I lounged around, slept in, watched Netflix, got a lot done around the house. NYE was a lot of fun with several couples each doing a custom cocktail from a different country around the world - cool theme. They invited a single woman younger than me and I flirted a bit but didn't pursue the obvious set up (2nd time now that's happened). Unfortunately I couldn't get out with people and GAL as much as I would've liked other than NYE party to due to COVID. Things are escalating a bit and many people are tentative to go out or get together. I should've gotten out skiing or hiking, but didn't.
Anyway, tomorrow is back to the regular work/school routine. I'm so glad 2020 is over. I realize it was a rough year in general for most people due to the pandemic but particularly for folks on this board who's sitches were starting/on-going (myself included). Hopefully 2021 is nothing but up for all of us!
BL, well done! While not DBing, I too would have said something to OM2. It's hard not to acknowledge the elephant in the room.
All in all a great update! Keep up the great work.
I'm considering having a conversation with my W regarding the kids and OM2 staying overnight when they're there and having breakfast together.
What she does on her parenting time is none of your business. I know it is a very bitter pill to swallow, but unless the law is being broken or child services need to investigate the mental/physical welfare of the children........nothing will be done. Even your lawyer said there is nothing. It stinks, but it's all part of this type of horrible sitch.
BL42, having a conversation with your WW about this subject will basically give her a "one up", b/c she knows you can't control her side of the street.
There's a more important reason for
not telling her the kids told you, and that's b/c she'll threaten them about ever discussing what goes on in that house. Then the kids will feel they can't trust you to not report what they've said. Bad idea, in IMHO.
We see this a lot on the board, so you aren't the only dad having to accept that co-parenting and discussing the children does not include her lack of moral standards. If OM doesn't cause a threat to the kids, the law will do nothing and you come out looking like a pathetic controlling fool.......instead of a caring father. Let it go. Focus on what goes on when you have the kids, rather than when she has them. Don't you know they go back telling her how much fun they had with Daddy, and that they didn't have to share his time with someone else (like their mom does)? The kids don't talk about it to hurt the parent, it's just how kids are........and they do it in both houses. One thing they don't need is for a parent to drill them about what was said by the other parent. Know what I mean?
((hugs))
sandi2,
What she does on her parenting time is none of your business. I know it is a very bitter pill to swallow, but unless the law is being broken or child services need to investigate the mental/physical welfare of the children........nothing will be done. Even your lawyer said there is nothing. It stinks, but it's all part of this type of horrible sitch.
I've accepted the relationship/marriage part of the sitch at this point but definitely still coming to grips with the child rearing aspect - definitely a tough pill to swallow.
BL42, having a conversation with your WW about this subject will basically give her a "one up", b/c she knows you can't control her side of the street.
My L said exactly the same thing. Similar to when her attorney sent a letter threatening arrest and we ignored it, a communication from me or my attorney would have the same toothless effect, and would give her power / a win.
There's a more important reason for not telling her the kids told you, and that's b/c she'll threaten them about ever discussing what goes on in that house. Then the kids will feel they can't trust you to not report what they've said. Bad idea, in IMHO.
I've been very mindful about not betraying trust with the kids. S5 has opened up more to my mom, and we're careful not to have her betray his trust so he'll continue to see her as his "safe person", and S5 & D2 slipped up to me about OM2 but I'd never tell W or any of her family for exactly the reason you point out. I am. however, concerned W has
already been telling the kids to be secret about things for quite awhile because of the amount of time it took them to mention something. That's not right, but as you say...nothing I can control.
We see this a lot on the board, so you aren't the only dad having to accept that co-parenting and discussing the children does not include her lack of moral standards. If OM doesn't cause a threat to the kids, the law will do nothing and you come out looking like a pathetic controlling fool.......instead of a caring father. Let it go. Focus on what goes on when you have the kids, rather than when she has them. Don't you know they go back telling her how much fun they had with Daddy, and that they didn't have to share his time with someone else (like their mom does)? The kids don't talk about it to hurt the parent, it's just how kids are........and they do it in both houses. One thing they don't need is for a parent to drill them about what was said by the other parent. Know what I mean?
((hugs))
In terms of controlling what I can, not to brag but I am crushing it on the parenting end. I've been flexing out of work to spend the maximum amount of time with them and having a lot of fun. I'm definitely making the kids my #1 priority.
Again it's been a few weeks since my last update...this time due to COVID. Not long after my last post I was notified of an potential exposure and tested positive the next day, so my kids and I quarantined together/alone for 2.5 weeks straight. Fortunately our symptoms were mild and the illness itself was not too serious for us...but it was quite a crazy time trying to take care of D2 and help S5 with school calls/assignments, all while trying to get my professional work done! Not much time to read/post on this forum. Normally my parents provide daycare/virtual schooling (and W has time obviously) but this was just me doing everything 24/7 - don't think they were more than 20ft from me for 17 straight days! I love them but being so young were crawling all over me LOL. It was exhausting and frustrating at times, but also a lot of fun and I felt a strong sense of bonding with them...plus they thought it was fun getting grocery and dinner delivery!
Because of the quarantine duration W video chatted more than usual and came over and saw the kids through the window several times. It was weird hearing her via the smartphone so much - because the kids are so small I had to help at times - and having her come over, but I mostly tried to keep busy doing something in the other room to avoid hearing/seeing her and let the kids interact.
W requested half my scheduled week following the quarantine. Initially I didn't want to give up the time because I love and miss the kids and felt I was helping them through illness and didn't have a weekend to take them anywhere, but eventually responded, saying "yes, that's fair" because they did stay with me through her week and S5 was definitely missing her at times. Plus if I'm being honest it was good to get a break after all that. W did request in an email I respond in a "timely manner" to her emails/texts and that it was "pretty ridiculous" it took me so long to get back to her on the schedule adjustment. I ignored the comment and did not engage, but suppose she has a point - my delay (days, not hours) was partially because I didn't want to give up any time with the kids but also a bit of bitterness regarding the situation she's put us in.
GAL has been difficult because of quarantine. Obviously I didn't see another soul in person during it, but even afterwards almost all of my friends are coupled off now and have less time to meet up spontaneously and also have other plans on weekends with family or other friends. I did clear out the basement, sell some items online, did a significant project in the garage, and had interior decorators come over today. It feel good to check items off my list and make progress to improving the house. This coming weekend is my second "off" weekend and I do have brunch scheduled with a bunch of friends on Saturday and plan to go skiing on Sunday, so I'm looking forward to that.
In terms of the D/finances, W proposed a fair value of the martial home so that's good. We're exchanging more financial information in the next week or two, so hopefully we can finalize assets soon.
This week last year we were enjoying a family vacation at Disney, and I had no idea of what was to come - it's hard to believe it's been a year since that trip. And such a bizarre/crazy/terrible year it's been. I'm just trying to keep moving forward...
Sounds like despite the COVID, that things seem to be going pretty well for you BL, good to hear, I hope things continue this way for you mate.
Completely understand that strange feeling re things being so different from a year ago. This time last year my STBXW and I were looking for houses to buy (we bought in March). I vividly remember being in a furniture store looking for a new couch with her and (then) S3 in May last year. Strange to think given where I am now.
Keep moving forward BL, those feelings will subside and hopefully you'll think of them less and less as time passes.
W did request in an email I respond in a "timely manner" to her emails/texts and that it was "pretty ridiculous" it took me so long to get back to her on the schedule adjustment. I ignored the comment and did not engage, but suppose she has a point - my delay (days, not hours) was partially because I didn't want to give up any time with the kids but also a bit of bitterness regarding the situation she's put us in.
I think some newcomers overdo in their endeavor to appear too busy to respond immediately. The other spouse will see through it pretty quickly. The point of "waiting" is so that the LBS isn't seen as obviously sitting on the phone, hoping to hear something from the other spouse. It's part of the "moving forward with their life" and the other spouse is no longer top priority. Sometimes, the LBS needs a little time to check with the board if he isn't sure how to handle a situation. I've seen some cases where it did get ridiculous. So, looks as if she has your number.
Obviously I didn't see another soul in person during it, but even afterwards almost all of my friends are coupled off now and have less time to meet up spontaneously and also have other plans on weekends with family or other friends.
I remember how hard this hit my mother in the face after my dad died. To her, it felt as though all their friends were couples, and when my dad died, they no longer (at least the husbands) were interested in continuing the friendship. It happens in divorce situations, too. The dynamic of the old friendship changes, b/c one person is no longer there.
This week last year we were enjoying a family vacation at Disney, and I had no idea of what was to come - it's hard to believe it's been a year since that trip. And such a bizarre/crazy/terrible year it's been. I'm just trying to keep moving forward...
We never know what life is going to throw at us in a year's time, right? You survived, and you will continue moving forward like a survivor.
I hope you'll keep posting, and post on other threads.
(((hugs)))
Forgot to mention in the above update my birthday was during the quarantine and W asked several different times if she could order cake and ice cream for me and the kids; I declined several times. She also asked about groceries and medicines and picking me up something for dinner when she did for the kids; I declined all of the offers. I'm not saying it was any sort of reconciliation overture - probably her feeling guilty I was sick and stuck with sic kids, or wanting the kids to enjoy the birthday party - but it did feel good internally to stand up and implicitly say "I don't need you or your help".
Tried to stay busy during my off week with the kids. I've been checking a lot of things off my "to do list", did a number of projects around the house, caught up on some professional work, and did brunch which led into dinner with friends over the weekend.
It's crazy this week with them, remote school, and work. I've continued to flex as much as possible at work to spend time with the kids, and took them sledding this week. Looking forward to a Super Bowl party with friends this weekend after drop off.
On the D side, I gathered up a bunch of requested financial documents and made a list to request from W. We have a solid agreement on the value of the martial home. There's a lot more to negotiate over, but W & I are on-board with keeping the lawyers out of it (at least for now) and trying to come to agreement between the two of us without running up legal bills. Time will tell. I floated the proposal of each of us taking our own assets, accounts...etc. in the interest of moving things along (which she's definitely interested in) but she's entitled to more legally so not sure that will fly. We'll see. I updated my own financial picture in my head over the Summer based on what the law would rule, so even if I lose a good bit I've already come to terms with it - and it's not bad considering in some states it would be much worse.
Hi BL,
Happy belated bday. I don't have much to offer for advice, I think you're killing it on all fronts. Stay detached, keep busy and keep doing what you're doing with the kids.
Regarding om and the kids, sounds like that's going to be an emotional trigger for you. You've handled it well and you luckily got great people giving you great advice as there is very little you can do regarding the other camp. One thing I want to say and I think it goes along with what Sandi mentioned about giving the WW the one up and how it affects the kids' trust, is that you want to always be coming from a place of strength. The less you show ww and om the better imo.
Kudos for not accepting anything from the WW. You're right, she could be trying to extend the olive branch because she is getting what she wants and is feeling a little guilty but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't mean anything.
Keep your guard up and your wits about you as you move into the agreements on the D. So far it sounds like it's amicable, but its too early to tell. She sounds like she is getting what she wants but those little flare ups with the MIL and her calling your phone the way she did...(I'm a little suspect). I'd keep running everything through your attorney and keep your cards close to your chest. We don't know if om2 can become om3, etc...you don't know how bad it can get.
With young children involved with this transition, if you haven't already, have you thought about seeking professional guidance from a counselor. The reason I say this is because you mentioned the children asking where is om2 in your presence and correct me if I am wrong, you stayed silent, right? That could have been the best thing to do at that point but maybe it was brought up for a reason and in their own way they are trying to communicate with you. Its tough, I don't have answers to that but if I was in that situation I'd definitely seek some guidance on when its okay to talk to children and at what age. If they have questions, what is okay and not okay to say that is age appropriate. I'm sure they will want reassurance from you.
Also awesome job with you handling everything when ya'll were quarantined. I have 2 boys at home with a few scares over the last few weeks. I commend you because it's a lot of work keeping kids focused on their online learning, keeping up with the kid's missing assignments, and keeping them busy during quarantine.
That’s where I am bro, and we agreed to mediate, even though we are in agreement she is not as sophisticated. So, one week after little D turns 18, stbxw, on the advice of her nitwit friend, hires an attorney.
And I ask, it’s only money, why did you hire an attorney?
W: Oh, I thought he was a mediator, he told me he could mediate.
Now my fear is the guy is going to just run up the tab when all we need is a settlement agreement and W is now the higher earning spouse and We agreed on all the numbers 50 50.
I’m tell stbxw here are my financials have him draw up an agreement but I’m not going in there to “ mediate “ with your advocate.
Adam04,
Happy belated bday. I don't have much to offer for advice, I think you're killing it on all fronts. Stay detached, keep busy and keep doing what you're doing with the kids.
Thanks for the encouragement and support! I am crushing it with the kids, no doubt, and doing alright overall - glad it's showing through in the posts.
Regarding om and the kids, sounds like that's going to be an emotional trigger for you. You've handled it well and you luckily got great people giving you great advice as there is very little you can do regarding the other camp. One thing I want to say and I think it goes along with what Sandi mentioned about giving the WW the one up and how it affects the kids' trust, is that you want to always be coming from a place of strength. The less you show ww and om the better imo.
Very true. I don't think it's appropriate OM2 sleeps over with them there. This isn't the life / model I wanted for the kids, though as everyone rightfully points out that's beyond my control. Thanks for the advice - I'll continue to act strong.
Kudos for not accepting anything from the WW. You're right, she could be trying to extend the olive branch because she is getting what she wants and is feeling a little guilty but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't mean anything.
Thanks! It made me feel good/strong inside to turn it down.
Keep your guard up and your wits about you as you move into the agreements on the D. So far it sounds like it's amicable, but its too early to tell. She sounds like she is getting what she wants but those little flare ups with the MIL and her calling your phone the way she did...(I'm a little suspect). I'd keep running everything through your attorney and keep your cards close to your chest. We don't know if om2 can become om3, etc...you don't know how bad it can get.
Will do. There have been some contentious points (W talks to kids without me...etc.) but I suppose it's been relatively amicable until now. Neither of us fought the 50/50 custody (though as I've mentioned in practice I care for the kids much more, between back/after school and Fridays), and in terms of child support though the law is ridiculous in our state in that I care for the kids more than her yet give her a sizable amount of money every month but it is what it is. The division of assets is the last step and the opening part of the home valuation was far, so hopefully that's a good sign, but she's yet to respond to the "let's each keep our own house, car, accounts...etc." email so we'll see. Even if that doesn't fly I'm still very well off, and have been mentally preparing on the financial outcome since the Summer.
With young children involved with this transition, if you haven't already, have you thought about seeking professional guidance from a counselor. The reason I say this is because you mentioned the children asking where is om2 in your presence and correct me if I am wrong, you stayed silent, right? That could have been the best thing to do at that point but maybe it was brought up for a reason and in their own way they are trying to communicate with you. Its tough, I don't have answers to that but if I was in that situation I'd definitely seek some guidance on when its okay to talk to children and at what age. If they have questions, what is okay and not okay to say that is age appropriate. I'm sure they will want reassurance from you.
I'm very concerned about the kids mental state, especially S5 because he's older and more aware of what used to be like. He's been sad and crying many times over the last six months. I think it's good he's opening up to my mother, as I've said she seems to be his "safe person". I've personally been in IC, but assume you're talking about the kids. I've been in contact with the school's counselor, social worker, and play therapist but with the virtual/hybrid schooling it's been tough to . My mom and I handle all the remote school work and have a great relationship with the teacher. I've thought about getting him a private child play therapist as well, but haven't yet. I'm torn on how he'll do because some sources online (even here) say it has a massive impact on kids and others say "they're resilient and will get over it and do great". My son's personality has changed a bit, and shows sadness and anger at times when he didn't use to, but 85-90% of the time he's doing great.[/quote]
Also awesome job with you handling everything when ya'll were quarantined. I have 2 boys at home with a few scares over the last few weeks. I commend you because it's a lot of work keeping kids focused on their online learning, keeping up with the kid's missing assignments, and keeping them busy during quarantine.
Thanks! It's crazy, isn't it! The working remotely and remote schooling. It was a long and hard 2.5weeks and at times stressful, but then I felt a deep connection with the kids as well and that was nice. Good luck to you and your boys with the online learning!
S5 said today he's going on vacation with D2, W, and OM2 this Summer. It pained my heart hearing that. I know there's nothing I can do, but it still hurts.
Sorry man. How is your GAL coming?
Sorry man. How is your GAL coming?
It's a mixed bag. On my weeks with the kids I only spent time with them. That's fulfilling and I love it. On the weeks without the kids I've tried to get together with friends as much as possible but it's been difficult at times with COVID and with others' couples plans. For example, this week I'm "off" but it's Valentines Day weekend (and 1yr BD anniversary as it happens), so many already have plans which aren't conducive to a a third wheel. I've been fulling the downtime with house improvements, which as helped. I need to do better with exercise - I haven't been lifting or anything.
Hi BL42,
I hear you on Valentine's Day. Have you considered.. a light-hearted date (I joke that Valentine's Day is the easiest day for men to get dates).. organizing a singles' event (e.g., socially-distanced in a park).. organizing a kids' event (e.g., making and exchanging digital photos of cards).. charity work showing love to others, an activity you love (e.g., walking, hiking, cycling, skiing).. or self-love making that full, wonderful dinner you would've made for others? I'll have my kids, but these all crossed my mind. Take care!
Hi BL42,
I hear you on Valentine's Day. Have you considered.. a light-hearted date (I joke that Valentine's Day is the easiest day for men to get dates).. organizing a singles' event (e.g., socially-distanced in a park).. organizing a kids' event (e.g., making and exchanging digital photos of cards).. charity work showing love to others, an activity you love (e.g., walking, hiking, cycling, skiing).. or self-love making that full, wonderful dinner you would've made for others? I'll have my kids, but these all crossed my mind. Take care!
All great ideas...thanks for the suggestions! If I can't find others' to spend time with I'll make it a point to go on a hike and/or skiing by myself. Not necessarily worked up about Valentine's Day per se, just an example of when friends have plans and can't include me. I did go to a Super Bowl party yesterday and brunch with friends last weekend, so it's not as if I'm always on my own.
Hi BL42,
I hear you on Valentine's Day. Have you considered.. a light-hearted date (I joke that Valentine's Day is the easiest day for men to get dates).. organizing a singles' event (e.g., socially-distanced in a park).. organizing a kids' event (e.g., making and exchanging digital photos of cards).. charity work showing love to others, an activity you love (e.g., walking, hiking, cycling, skiing).. or self-love making that full, wonderful dinner you would've made for others? I'll have my kids, but these all crossed my mind. Take care!
All great ideas...thanks for the suggestions! If I can't find others' to spend time with I'll make it a point to go on a hike and/or skiing by myself. Not necessarily worked up about Valentine's Day per se, just an example of when friends have plans and can't include me. I did go to a Super Bowl party yesterday and brunch with friends last weekend, so it's not as if I'm always on my own.
BL! I like this. Focus on what you can control (yourself, not others)!
Sorry to read about the OM2 sitch BL42. No sane person would advocate that the sleepovers when the kids are there are a good idea. But as others have said, you cannot control W and OM2 on this one. Detach.
That sitch is one example of the tension between wanting to speak out and knowing that doing so is unlikely to change anything. Here's the thing - issuing orders or directives to do/not do something where you cannot control the outcome is pointless, smells like weakness and leads to further disrespect and not being taken seriously. You understand this. However, expressing disapproval of an inappropriate situation without any directive or threatened consequence is something different. If done properly - calmly, matter-of-factly, with control - it does not have the same downsides IMO.
I bring this up not to urge you to speak out to your W re the sleepovers but to just address the issue more generally as it can be debated as to whether "STFU if i can't control the outcome" is the best play in all circumstances. It's the safe play for sure as it eliminates the downside risks. But for those who are at or can get to the point of emotional control and calm inner strength, expressing disapproval of actions that they strongly disagree with (particularly when it comes to their kids) actually shows strength. Detachment does not equate to head in the sand and ignorance of bad behavior that affects your kids.
You sound like a great Dad. Keep it up. Your kids have one Dad and that's you. They are very young with alot to learn. Saddle up for the long haul and be their foundation.
Don't spin about the summer vacation with OM2. Summer is a long way off and alot can happen before then, not just between W and OM2 but with your own growth and detachment. One day at a time buddy.
Get an exercise program going. Lift if you can. The iron is great medicine.
Hang in there man, you're on the right track.
The thing about Valentines Day is that people allow a calendar date to emotionally pressure them. Another source has said how hard it is for single people, b/c others will ask them about their Valentine plans, or what they got for Valentines day, etc. I just think it's a consumer holiday, and it's gotten out of control. I think it causes more problems than blessings.
I feel somewhat sorry for teenage boys all the way up through married men, b/c so many gals expect the big balloons, candy, flowers, jewelry, a romantic dinner, or whatever. And if the gal is in high school or works with other women.........she wants that stuff delivered during the day so others see what she gets. I've seen young gals have a bad attitude when her young guy didn't have the financial means to get the biggest & best. It's ridiculous!
Valentines day is in memory of St. Valentine, who was a Roman saint..........Just like St. Patrick's Day is about an Irish saint. Look at who is making money from these holidays. Christmas & Easter are big money making holidays, too.
Look at newcomers who ask if they should get their spouse a birthday gift, although the spouse may be in an A , physically separated, etc. Why has our society succumbed to the idea they are suppose to do something b/c the calendar says it's a holiday?
BL42, I commend you for not allowing this date to dictate that you have to celebrate in some romantic way.
I buy all the 1/2 off chocolate the day after Vday. It's my reward and also a sign that I love myself.
Here's the thing - issuing orders or directives to do/not do something where you cannot control the outcome is pointless, smells like weakness and leads to further disrespect and not being taken seriously. You understand this. However, expressing disapproval of an inappropriate situation without any directive or threatened consequence is something different. If done properly - calmly, matter-of-factly, with control - it does not have the same downsides IMO.
..for those who are at or can get to the point of emotional control and calm inner strength, expressing disapproval of actions that they strongly disagree with (particularly when it comes to their kids) actually shows strength. Detachment does not equate to head in the sand and ignorance of bad behavior that affects your kids.
I had to do this when X was drinking and driving with our son. No way was I going to let that fly, although I couldn't (and shouldn't) 'control' X - I did tell him that it was not ok. If it happened again I would call the police and I told S17 (at the time) not to get in the car with him.
Of course X went off on me. It was ugly. I actually recorded the conversation (to keep me calm and strong, not to use against him).
I used that old adage "Will this matter in 10 minutes, 10 weeks, 10 years?" - Big FAT yes to all three. Had something happened, and I didn't stand for my kids and grandkids, I wouldn't have been ok.
Fast forward 3 years later - S27 lit into him because he was drinking and driving with the grands. (apparently he had gotten better and then relapsed) I'm glad I spoke up. I'm glad my S27 spoke up.
It's good to have a line. It's going to be different for everyone, but we can't let the fear of 'losing them' override good common sense and protection of our kids. If we live in the realm of "the M is dead", fear can't dictate our choices and motivations.
Steve85/Gekko/sandi2/Hope97,
BL! I like this. Focus on what you can control (yourself, not others)!
Thanks Steve. I'm trying.
Sorry to read about the OM2 sitch BL42. No sane person would advocate that the sleepovers when the kids are there are a good idea. But as others have said, you cannot control W and OM2 on this one. Detach.
Thanks. Yeah...it's crazy. Do whatever you want on your "free" time, but wait 6 months for introductions let alone sleepovers. It's wrong. This weekend she dumped the kids off for a sleepover at her moms to have an overnight with OM2, even though she had the week before and after without the kids. Why not adjust the schedule with OM2 and spend time with your kids the weekend you have them? Crazy. So out of character for her a year ago...or so I thought.
You sound like a great Dad. Keep it up. Your kids have one Dad and that's you. They are very young with alot to learn. Saddle up for the long haul and be their foundation.
Thanks. Not to brag, but I am. I'm crushing it, and that's been a big positive in all this. I've loved the 1:1 time with my kids.
Don't spin about the summer vacation with OM2. Summer is a long way off and alot can happen before then, not just between W and OM2 but with your own growth and detachment. One day at a time buddy.
I hear ya...obviously a lot can change in 6 months. Didn't want any of this to happen, just trying to do everything I can to mitigate the impact to the kids at this point.
Get an exercise program going. Lift if you can. The iron is great medicine.
That's one area I've been lacking. I've lack the exercise drop off and the pounds creep back. Need to make the effort in the gym to stay fit, even if kids and work have been the priority.
That sitch is one example of the tension between wanting to speak out and knowing that doing so is unlikely to change anything. Here's the thing - issuing orders or directives to do/not do something where you cannot control the outcome is pointless, smells like weakness and leads to further disrespect and not being taken seriously. You understand this. However, expressing disapproval of an inappropriate situation without any directive or threatened consequence is something different. If done properly - calmly, matter-of-factly, with control - it does not have the same downsides IMO.
I bring this up not to urge you to speak out to your W re the sleepovers but to just address the issue more generally as it can be debated as to whether "STFU if i can't control the outcome" is the best play in all circumstances. It's the safe play for sure as it eliminates the downside risks. But for those who are at or can get to the point of emotional control and calm inner strength, expressing disapproval of actions that they strongly disagree with (particularly when it comes to their kids) actually shows strength. Detachment does not equate to head in the sand and ignorance of bad behavior that affects your kids.
Hang in there man, you're on the right track.
It's good to have a line. It's going to be different for everyone, but we can't let the fear of 'losing them' override good common sense and protection of our kids. If we live in the realm of "the M is dead", fear can't dictate our choices and motivations.
Gekko/97Hope - Thanks for weighing in! I appreciate it. Your posts are in the same vein here. I agree there is a line, but not sure I've figured out the right balance yet. 97Hope's example of driving drunk with the kids in the car is a clear violation of that line. Others, like OM2 sleeping over (which I think is flat out wrong) or screen time/nutrition for the kids (which I I'm not thrilled about) doesn't even seem to merit consideration from the Ls/Judges. I would like to speak out about OM2 sleeping over "in mommy's bed" a month after she moved out, but that's already been happening for quite awhile, so what's the point now. I don't agree the kids should be eating sweets for breakfast, lunch, and dinner or watching the ipad for 5-6hrs/day when they're with her, but what can I do? The courts don't care, and she obviously doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. An example is S5 came over for "virtual school" a few Fridays ago and was exhausted - couldn't focus or finish any of his tasks and the teacher returned several assignments (it's Kindergarten, so they're letters, numbers, basic reading and math) - so I asked him why he was so tired and he said he woke up last night and watched the iPad. I confirmed looking at the battery/usage settings he was up 2:30-5am watching videos, and that he watched 5hrs and 6hrs the two weekend days he was with her. So, I naively mentioned something to wife thinking she might be considered and she said "oh yeah, he couldn't sleep so I gave him the iPad". So what can I do? The courts don't care unless it's heroine or physical abuse, and obviously W is fine with it. SO I have to let go. I will however, to both of your points, trying to pick that line, and maybe as time goes on we can co-parent a bit more effectively.
The thing about Valentines Day is that people allow a calendar date to emotionally pressure them. Another source has said how hard it is for single people, b/c others will ask them about their Valentine plans, or what they got for Valentines day, etc. I just think it's a consumer holiday, and it's gotten out of control. I think it causes more problems than blessings.
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Valentines day is in memory of St. Valentine, who was a Roman saint..........Just like St. Patrick's Day is about an Irish saint. Look at who is making money from these holidays. Christmas & Easter are big money making holidays, too.
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BL42, I commend you for not allowing this date to dictate that you have to celebrate in some romantic way.
Thanks sandi! I feel the same way. Not sure my W does though lol. I've given some extraordinary gifts to her (and other people) many times at random dates simply because I get a great idea, but then I don't always go overboard for the "calendar" Holidays either, and I think that was a disappointment for W at times. Something I should probably be more attuned to of in the future.
As for St. Patrick's Day, my family has a strong Irish heritage so it was always a big deal in my house growing up but not because of presents - I've been to Mass many a St. Patrick's Day.