https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2896359&page=1Quick summary
12 months of limbo Mar 2019-Mar 2020. “Confused” WAH; on/off EA, ILYB
Separated Mar 2020, in COVID lockdown the whole time
May 31st 2020 WAH asked me to take him back
June-present (Sep 2020) - reconciling, honeymoon period for 8 weeks then back on the rollercoaster.
Currently having MC and IC. Seems to be two steps forward and 1.5 steps back. H is still struggling with missing feelings although doesn't want to stop trying. EAP reached out to him at the start of the week and dropped a massive bomb on him. I was angry that he didn't block her like I had suggested he may want to do. And more angry that he replied to her then lied to me about it. I feel like the trust counter is set back to zero. I don't feel that I want to talk about it again until we have MC next week. I want to put in place a boundary that could see me calling time on my M. It's not something I want to do, but I think there becomes a point where I have to.
On the positive side, we did our Sensate Focus 'homework' this week for the first time - it was really nice. H was grinning from ear to ear afterwards (and just to clarify, this is stage one so it is sensual and not sexual touch in any way). next day, H came away from his session with the MC in a more positive and focused frame of mind. He's definitely been more loving and putting more effort in to connect in small ways. I did say 2 days ago I needed a break from talking about the M or R and that I felt I had forgotten how to have fun. So I've kind of backed off and H is being more forthcoming. I know I am guilty of piling pressure on the relationship and that this makes H feel like he's failing. So I think I've released the pressure a bit for the both of us. Last night I got glammed up and went out with some girlfriends for a few drinks. H pounced on me when I got home - first time in 5 weeks
!!
Pommy needs to take care of Pommy. You can't rely on your H right now, unfortunately, to lean on. He's half baked and he needs to finish up his own baking before he is whole enough to really help you deal with your own hurt and fears and insecurities (that he caused, yes I get it, it is totally unfair). Waking him up at 3 am might make you feel better in the moment but probably doesn't really help you to feel more secure or trusting or loved in the long term. It also probably doesn't help HIM to deal with his own stuff if he also feels insecure about losing you if he doesn't respond appropriately in the moment, which is a lot of pressure especially if you're totally confused like he is.
One of my trouble spots is lying awake in the night and stewing over things. I get more and more anxious and restless. I just thought rolling over and hugging H (didn't actually wake him to talk or anything) would help get rid of the negative thoughts. But you are right May, I need to be able to self-soothe, and learn to control my thoughts without relying on H as an antidote.
therapeutic disclosure was posted on my thread as an idea, and I read up about it and it might be a good suggestion for your H too. A lie about something that happened 18 months ago is still a lie. It is totally relevant. He's still controlling the narrative by picking and choosing what to be honest about, and that isn't fair to you. Also the extent to which there are still lies between you-- and he is still actively lying about things whether they are past or present-- that is inhibiting the ability of you two to reconnect. He's got to figure out how to be fully transparent and recognize that if he wants to R with you, the consequences of continued lying are worse than the consequences of telling you some things that you may be angry about.
I am angry about the lies because I am damm sure there are more. The fact this week I have been dealt new lies/new information has caused a massive setback. All that happens when he lies is that I have to fill in the blanks myself - and inevitably the 'worst case' scenario is pretty detrimental for the M. I'd like therapeutic disclosure as a way to wipe the slate clean, and it might go a long way to being able to begin to restore trust. I will think about this ahead of next week's MC and perhaps raise it with the MC. I'm jotting down things this week about my feelings and challenges.
Journalling
So last week was the mini-BD that EAP had reached out to H to let him know that she was critically ill, and H had replied and was caught red-handed in the midst of texting her, which he quickly deleted and lied about until I wouldn't drop it and he finally confessed. We actually had a nice few days after that (because I easily forget that he is a liar and quickly switch back into loving wife mode, even though I am wracked with anxiety that he is having regular secret contact with her). By day 6 however, I told him that I was no longer prepared to work on the M, go to MC whilst that door with her was still open. H was really reluctant to break all contact, saying he cared for her, wanted to know how she gets on with her treatment, and that he would let me know when he contacts her. I just shook my head. He later he told me that he knew what he needed to do, but that he just wasn't sure how to do it. That was 6 days ago.
Prior to MC I told H that I was confused about what I was feeling about him and the M in light of the lies. At MC we discussed the same, H seems very reluctant about breaking contact on the grounds that it dehumanizes him if he cuts her off knowing that she is ill. MC suggests that the reason he doesn't want to cut her off - and hasn't cut her off before now - is because he is still wondering, wondering if a relationship with her is better than a relationship with me, and whilst he keeps wondering, he will remain permanently stuck. MC suggested he write a letter, show it to me before he sends it, or get me to help him with it. H waffled a bit at which point I stepped in and said I can make this really easy for him. I will walk away from this M. I have been standing for this M for 18 months, and here we are 18 months in, dealing with the same lies, about the same woman. I can walk away knowing that I gave it my all, and I can hold my head high knowing that I acted with integrity at all times.
I honestly cant remember much else that was said, other than that the session ended on a very uncertain note, with MC acknowledging that I may not wish to attend any more sessions. There was a part where H said that he loved me, his life with me, that I offered calmness, security but he wasn't sure if my love for him was genuine, did I only start loving him again when I thought I had lost him, was it really love?
After the session H told me that he was worried because I had said I didn't know how I felt about him or the M anymore. I asked why that worried him and he said because it would mean we were over. He said he does know that he wants to try and to put the effort in, that he knows he has a lot to lose with me, he loves me. I'm the benchmark, but it's that missing piece - he just wants to feel like he is in love. He has a day out planned with a friend this weekend, 2 hrs away, which he has offered to cancel, because of where we are, and as a way to reassure me that he isn't up to anything untoward. I said that he didn't need to do that, that it's important for him to have time to connect with himself and do things for him.
I'm starting to question what love actually means, and whether what I feel is love. Do I really love him, or do I love the idea of him and the idea of us? He asked me if I ever imagined being in a R with someone else. Why is he asking me that? Does he need to feel that I would be OK if he left, or is he doubting that I really do love him? He said if I was questioning whether I love him or not, then it wasn't love - that I would know. I said no, you've made me start to question if what I feel is something other than what I thought it was, you've made me start to doubt myself. We talked about our past and how we've never had a really strong "in love" connection since we had children, did it even exist before that. We know what we both want to feel and are now questioning if we even had that when we got married?
We talked about EAP, and how they connected and had fun together (of course - he was living a single life, staying in hotels, eating out and drinking in the city, no kids to go home to, no homework, school run, tantrums, housework, no one to answer to about when/where/who with/how much $$.) He did actually go on to talk about her attention-seeking traits and that she was high maintenance, which was one of the things he didn't like about her. I agreed with him!
Right now, everything feels quite calm and low pressure. But it can change quickly. And there is still the elephant in the room about breaking contact with EAP. I don't want to push him too hard - it needs to be his decision. He has said multiple times that he will deal with it, but I know H, he will bury his head in the sand and hope that it goes away. How and when do I start to enforce my boundary? Do I start now (not going to MC, not working on the marriage). How much time do I give him to take action?
And I do easily slip back into loving wife mode, acting as if everything is normal, even when there's all this going on with OW and the lies, etc. It feels wrong to keep the animosity ongoing, yet when we switch back into being normal and affectionate I question whether I am just giving him a message that I am accepting his behavior and he can do anything with no threat of me ever leaving. He even said himself this week that my patience with him has been amazing and that he wouldn't have been able to be as patient with me. Am I just a weak, whiny doormat?
Am I just a weak, whiny doormat?
Is that how you see yourself? Would you feel stronger if you stopped the "loving wife mode"? Would you feel selfish?
How and when do I start to enforce my boundary? Do I start now (not going to MC, not working on the marriage). How much time do I give him to take action?
You enforce the boundary when you truly believe it is the safest thing for you. At this point - it feels like you might still be creating this boundary for him.
If you know your H buries his head in the sand - you certainly can't stop him. But are you enabling his behavior?
It sounds so very exhausting. I'm sorry Pommy. Have you thought anymore about how Pommy can take care of Pommy?
Pommy, I have been thinking of you!
I too fall too quickly in the loving wife trap. It has taken me a long time to discover my boundaries and truly understand that boundaries can be another form of being nice. In fact, once those boundaries are in place, you have a lot more room to be a kind and loving person because you protected within the confines of those clear boundaries.
What are some boundaries you could put into place to protect your heart right now? Are you seeing an IC or could your MC help you come up with ways that you could build an emotionally safe space within your M to find the answer you need as to whether or not you can move forward?
I see you putting a lot of weight on H to help you make a decision as to whether or not you are able or willing to continue with the MR. It is clear that he simply cannot make this decision for you and will continue to waffle under the weight of it. In fact, it is not fair of him to make that decision for you. May is working on the same thing in her situation, only in the other direction (H wanting HER to make the decision). Maybe re-read some of the advice shared on her thread to see if you can find a direction that resonates with you?
In the meantime, hugs and compassion.
((((Pommy))))
Hi Pommy!
I have some thoughts and will share more later but just for $hits and giggles, thought it would be fun to copy and paste things your H has said to you that my H has said to me, nearly word-for-word:
H was really reluctant to break all contact, saying he cared for her, wanted to know how she gets on with (xyz) and that he would let me know when he contacts her.
of course in my case it wasn't cancer treatment, it was life or whatever. And AP reached out once because her BIL died (when they'd broken it off before I even knew about her) and then in May dangled more "trauma" to H, which he bit on, and was that her sister's dog was killed. (H hates dogs. But I was being harsh when I was like, REALLY? Trauma??) So. not to be unsympathetic but I'm going to bet that if it wasn't cancer, it would be something else.
he knew what he needed to do, but that he just wasn't sure how to do it.
Yup. Every time. Word for word.
the reason he doesn't want to cut her off - and hasn't cut her off before now - is because he is still wondering, wondering if a relationship with her is better than a relationship with me, and whilst he keeps wondering, he will remain permanently stuck.
Since my H has no verbal filter, I got this one directly rather than through the MC.
he wasn't sure if my love for him was genuine, did I only start loving him again when I thought I had lost him, was it really love?
Same. Maybe I never really loved him. (FWIW I also wonder how much of my standing is love for my H vs feeling like someone was taking my toy away.)
We talked about EAP, and how they connected and had fun together (of course - he was living a single life, staying in hotels, eating out and drinking in the city, no kids to go home to, no homework, school run, tantrums, housework, no one to answer to about when/where/who with/how much $$.) He did actually go on to talk about her attention-seeking traits and that she was high maintenance, which was one of the things he didn't like about her.
Exactly. The other day, H was like, when was the last time we did fun stuff like this together? Dropped everything and just went out and had fun for us? (Um... when we didn't have kids.)
He has said multiple times that he will deal with it, but I know H, he will bury his head in the sand and hope that it goes away.
"I will deal with it"-- mmmhmmm. I got this a LOT.
He even said himself this week that my patience with him has been amazing and that he wouldn't have been able to be as patient with me.
This too. Although in my case I feel a little undercurrent of disrespect here, like "I wouldn't have stood for this BS."
Anyway. Hopefully this at least makes you feel like you aren't alone!! I'm right here with you, sister!
I have some thoughts about the loving wife mode, boundaries, cutting off all contact, etc. and will write more later. Did you talk to the MC about therapeutic disclosure or transparency? I still feel this is a potential issue from my perspective.
Am I just a weak, whiny doormat?
Is that how you see yourself? Would you feel stronger if you stopped the "loving wife mode"? Would you feel selfish?
I'd feel like I was destroying the attempts at reconciliation, that going back into amicable, best friend mode would reinforce that we are nothing more than friends and that we cant connect. But equally, when will he see that not breaking contact with OW is destroying any potential for growth in our marriage. He just doesn't get it - he says "I don't want an affair with her" and "it's not like I'm going to meet up with her" when trying to justify not breaking contact. But he doesn't get the damage and hurt to me (even though he says he hates the lies and hurt that he has caused). He doesn't get that having both of us in his life is not an option.
You enforce the boundary when you truly believe it is the safest thing for you. At this point - it feels like you might still be creating this boundary for him.
If you know your H buries his head in the sand - you certainly can't stop him. But are you enabling his behavior?
How do you mean "creating this boundary for him"? What I feel right now is that he wont take any action because it's too difficult for him, and for whatever reasons, he doesn't feel like he wants to. I have two options - I apply pressure or I step back and remove myself from it. Last night he asked why I had gone quiet - I said I was reflecting on the MC session, to which he responded "I havent forgotten". I didnt say anything else as I dont want to apply pressure - I want him to initiate this and take ownership for it. And of course he hasn't forgotten - he's just not done anything about it. So it's now 7 days since he said "I know what I need to do". If the decision is that hard, doesn't that tell me something?
I see you putting a lot of weight on H to help you make a decision as to whether or not you are able or willing to continue with the MR. It is clear that he simply cannot make this decision for you and will continue to waffle under the weight of it. In fact, it is not fair of him to make that decision for you.
Sage, I think I understand what you are saying.....that I'm basing my decision on his decision? If so, what should I be doing? I felt that this was my boundary, that I will not stay in the M whilst the door to OW is left open. Am I dealing with this in the wrong way? From your perspective, what should I be doing/saying? I honestly feel blinkered right now - I can't see any other way than "I will not stay in this M with OW in the background" - but there is a dependency on him here, right?
MC told H the ball is in his court on this - that's when I felt, no, this isn't all about H and his decision, and H being in control - and that's when I stepped in and said I could make this really easy, that I wasn't prepared to continue with her presence, and I would walk away, not as a threat or an ultimatum, but that I had thought about where we are 18 months down the line, and it seemed that something was not going to change.
I have some thoughts and will share more later but just for $hits and giggles, thought it would be fun to copy and paste things your H has said to you that my H has said to me, nearly word-for-word:
Oh gawd, The Script!! The GD Script!!! Thank you for sharing - it actually made me really sad to read all of this. That's why I went quiet on H last night as I read it just before I got into bed. The "I'll deal with it" seems to really be a delaying tactic. Usually when H has to deal with something that is of importance to him (scratch on his car door, physio appointment, house repair) it gets dealt with verrrry quickly (and thoroughly researched). Right now, these are just words and no action. And like your H, he's talking about renovating the living room, he's asking me what I want for my big birthday in a few months time. He's replaced some home appliances and selling the old ones - I'm thinking, hey we might need two of those if we separate again, but he doesn't think like that. He seems quite happy to be home, with me, showering me with affection,...and brushing OW under the rug.
Re the wedding rings - H put his ring back on a couple of weeks ago but I'm still not wearing mine (although I am wearing other rings). H hasn't mentioned it and I really don't want to put them back on until I feel like I am in a place where I can see that we are truly moving forward. I don't think breaking contact with OW would be the catalyst - I guess there would need to be a point where I feel that the threat of S/D is off the table and we are piecing.
hi Pommy,
Just quickly-- your sitch is not my sitch, or anyone else's sitch. Yes, these dopes are following the same GD script. That does not mean everything is the same, and I definitely didn't mean to depress you when I did that.
To the extent there are similarities between our Hs, I would just offer for where you are today, not knowing if/how to push the "cut off all contact with AP" issue-- this isn't something you can really control. He will or he won't. (Or, he won't but he'll tell you he did.) I don't think you want him to feel coerced into doing it-- in fact, this is what my H is saying now about the last two times, he felt he had to do it but it wasn't what he was choosing of his own free will. This could be the same with your H. You could push the issue and he'll probably cut her off, but you don't know that he'll hold to it. Or, you could accept the fact that he may or may not choose to cut her (and the possibility of her or what she represents) out of his life forever, and decide you're OK with that for the time being. Or, maybe you're not OK with it at all and he needs to go.
If you decide to keep the status quo for the time being, maybe there are other ways you can communicate to your H that your relationship-building phase is on hold until he boots the third party out of your marriage for good. I don't know what might make sense to you, but maybe no more R talks, no more MC, no more loving wife, no more talk of renovating until you feel secure she's gone for good. Maybe you can just say that to him straight up. H, I'm not ready to bail on our M right now. But you need to realize that we can't productively work on our M until you have conclusively ended all contact with OW and put some safety measures in place to ensure she doesn't contact you again. I understand you don't feel ready to do that right now. OK. But I'm not in a place where I can focus on our future together or work on building up our emotional intimacy with her still in the picture in any way. So, please understand that I can no longer (whatever) until we get past this. Thanks. And then.... drop it. Let it go. do your own thing until he's stopped procrastinating and done what he needs to do. Don't bug him about it. If he wants to know why you aren't participating in whatever things you put on hold until it has been done, simply say, I can't do that until I am certain that the third party is no longer in the picture. (or even better, I can't do that and let him fill in the blanks as to why.)
He needs to realize that he screwed this up with his bad behavior. if he hadn't embarked on an EA with this woman, he could probably still be her friend and be your H. He's sank that particular possibility with his own bad choices. That isn't on you. And he needs to actually try to sit in your space for a moment here and understand just how damaging and hurtful it is for him to have any contact with her at all. I mean, honestly.
Also, I know I keep harping on the transparency piece but that feels like a really big red flag to me. I am having a hard time believing it was just an EA (though that could just be my own sitch talking, but I believed it fully until he came clean on it) and the denying of the texting in real time feels really scary to me. I feel like to the extent there are still potential secrets-- even just you doubting that there aren't more revelations to come, since you've had to pry every truth out of him by confronting him with evidence, which obviously leaves you with doubt that there was more you just haven't uncovered yet-- that will be a block between the two of you to emotional intimacy. What does he say to that? How could he possibly justify lying to you when you are in reconciliation about texting with the EA when you caught him red-handed? How does he expect you to trust him in the future? He seems like he's denying the gravity of this situation and he needs to open his eyes, here.
Have you read MWD's affair recovery book? There is a chapter on what to do if your spouse won't end the affair. You might read it if you haven't. Marathon not a sprint and all the rest.
Re the wedding rings - H put his ring back on a couple of weeks ago but I'm still not wearing mine (although I am wearing other rings). H hasn't mentioned it and I really don't want to put them back on until I feel like I am in a place where I can see that we are truly moving forward. I don't think breaking contact with OW would be the catalyst - I guess there would need to be a point where I feel that the threat of S/D is off the table and we are piecing.
This is exactly how I feel. I don't want to put my rings back on until I feel we are piecing. But I'm happy to have him wear his as a symbol of his own commitment to the process.
(((POMMY)))
PM99,
I think you know understand where your at right now and deep down what you have to do but your fear is preventing you from doing it. This is clearly not working for you. Until you are willing to walk away from something that doesn't work for you then you will always be a prisoner in your relationships. We really love to complicate things on this board when it's so simple. What does his actions tell you?
Unlike 99% of the WW husbands on this board, I don't think you H is a horrible person. I don't think he's manipulating you. I just truly believe he thinks your marriage has run its course and is not emotionally intelligent enough to understand limerance and such.
I truly believe in your situation time and space are the only thing that can turn this around long term. If not I think you can expect many years of the same. You have all the power.
Pommy
What I mean by you wanting to set boundaries for him is that it seems you are trying to set boundaries as a way to control his behavior. That ideally you would like him to do x, y, z. So you want to say "H... if you do x... I will do Y", but the problem is when he does X - you DON'T do Y. That's why its a form of control and manipulation verses a boundary.
It does seem like your heart is crying to you to stop the pain. I think it is telling you that his continuing lies and excuses are hurting you. That you really don't want to share a relationship with H as long as their is an OW. But you keep looking to him to stop the pain verses you stopping it. Pommy how do you stop the pain?
I know that it may seem like all or nothing... but that's a big step and maybe one that you aren't ready for at this time. But what about little small boundaries that you can set? Maybe not engaging in "wife like behaviors". or maybe no future talks? Maybe stop talking about AP? Maybe stop reassuring him? Maybe detach?
Btw - you don't have to tell H any of these things... you just do them. Boundaries are actions not words - IMO.
I totally agree with LH about space because when you are in the thick of everything... when do you have time to just feel? to just process? To allow space for that anger and betrayal that you feel in your heart? How can give proper respect to those feelings when H is always consuming your time and energy?
((Pommy))
I see you putting a lot of weight on H to help you make a decision as to whether or not you are able or willing to continue with the MR. It is clear that he simply cannot make this decision for you and will continue to waffle under the weight of it. In fact, it is not fair of him to make that decision for you.
Sage, I think I understand what you are saying.....that I'm basing my decision on his decision? If so, what should I be doing? I felt that this was my boundary, that I will not stay in the M whilst the door to OW is left open. Am I dealing with this in the wrong way? From your perspective, what should I be doing/saying? I honestly feel blinkered right now - I can't see any other way than "I will not stay in this M with OW in the background" - but there is a dependency on him here, right?
Hi dearest Pommy, in response to your question above, I think I need to clarify what I meant by saying you are basing your decision on H's decision. You are absolutely correct in your boundary of not being in a three-way M. However, only you can take care of you. Only you can put up the boundaries to protect you. You cannot control H, but you can control your reaction to H's behavior (or lack thereof). May shared a really good blueprint for actualizing the concept I was sharing:
If you decide to keep the status quo for the time being, maybe there are other ways you can communicate to your H that your relationship-building phase is on hold until he boots the third party out of your marriage for good. I don't know what might make sense to you, but maybe no more R talks, no more MC, no more loving wife, no more talk of renovating until you feel secure she's gone for good. Maybe you can just say that to him straight up. H, I'm not ready to bail on our M right now. But you need to realize that we can't productively work on our M until you have conclusively ended all contact with OW and put some safety measures in place to ensure she doesn't contact you again. I understand you don't feel ready to do that right now. OK. But I'm not in a place where I can focus on our future together or work on building up our emotional intimacy with her still in the picture in any way. So, please understand that I can no longer (whatever) until we get past this. Thanks. And then.... drop it. Let it go. do your own thing until he's stopped procrastinating and done what he needs to do. Don't bug him about it. If he wants to know why you aren't participating in whatever things you put on hold until it has been done, simply say, I can't do that until I am certain that the third party is no longer in the picture. (or even better, I can't do that and let him fill in the blanks as to why.)
What May suggested seems like it would allow you to be true to you, while also allowing the space for H to make the decision on his own. Given H's indecisive nature, you might need to mentally put a deadline on all of this. I wouldn't communicate that deadline to H, just keep it in your soul. That by a particular date, if he hasn't executed NC, you ask him to leave.
Once H has instigated NC with EAP, I would suggest a therapeutic disclosure. Is your MC familiar with this process? If not, maybe find someone who is an expert in this arena (you might find some therapist names in your area if you explore sex addicts anonymous; it is a tool typically used in those situations). It will eliminate future years of trickle-truths. It might be something to start looking into now to have in your back pocket. It can take a while for the entire process to unfold.
(((Pommy)))
Will reply more later, but H has broken contact with OW. He called her and told her why he was ending contact. We had agreed that we would sort it out tomorrow, with a text, but he felt a text was too heartless given her recent diagnosis. I would have liked to have been part of it, to hear what he said but he wanted to do it “his way” and he didn’t tell me beforehand because he thought I would want to do it “my way” even though we hadn’t discussed what “my way” entailed.
So we’ve had a big fight about him doing it behind my back, but at the end of the day I respect him for doing it his way. OW also basically gave him a big F.O. as she doesn’t understand why he needs to block her.
There was a lot more to what’s happened today, H and I aren’t speaking. I think he probably feels that he’s done it so wtf is the problem whereas I got upset because it wasn’t how we agreed.
In short, train wreck !
Hi Pommy,
It is great that he did it. If I were you (knowing my advice may not be the best!!) I wouldn't worry so much how he did it. I have spent a lot of time there, focusing on what all the books say, it needing to be done the right way, blah blah blah. Lots of angst about letting H do it "his way" and not the right way. in the end I think there was definitely truth to H's feeling that I was trying to control the situation by dictating how it should be done. And, it is just one small step on a long journey and he'll have to keep to it-- all outside of your control.
So, maybe just let it go. Let him take ownership. Even if it wasn't the way you would have wanted it to happen-- at this point, it is done, so maybe just stop worrying about it and focus on the present. It will take some time before you feel safe again, is my guess.
((POMMY))
Do you have any actual proof of him doing it?
Do you have any actual proof of him doing it?
I have proof of the phone call and we have , together, blocked her on his phone and SM.
What has happened in the last 3 days however, I started to type it yesterday and deleted it. As I typed it I felt like what has happened tells me all I need to know. I felt you guys would tell me the same. Maybe I am in denial and too scared to admit it. Right now, things aren’t good.
H and agreed we would deal with the NC on Sunday (yesterday). We hadn’t discussed what to say and how, but we would do it together.
On Saturday H had a day out which started with a 2 hr drive. After about 4 hrs I checked his iPad to see if he was where he said he was going - he was. But I also checked FaceTime and there was a call a couple of hours previously from OW. It was only 22 secs. I sent him a text to ask if he had met up with her or had spoken to her. He denied it. Several times. He called me and still denied having spoken to her. I sent him the screenshot. He admitted she had called him and he had told her he no longer wanted to be in contact . I didn’t believe him. I said how did she know it was ok to call him on this particular Saturday when every other Saturday he would be with me. And why did he lie? After the call I sent him a text telling him I would like him to move out because I no longer wanted to be married to a liar. He replied that he was trying to do the right thing by breaking contact. He said he wanted to talk when he got back and I said no point, she’s welcome to you. I could see he then left the event that he was at and started to drive home (I know he was with a male friend as he sent me some photos). He called me and admitted that he had made the first call to OW and broke contact, that he didn’t just want to do it on text given her illness but he didn’t think I would agree to him calling her so he did it without telling me. His plan was that we would then still do the message the following day where he told her he was ending their friendship. But his plan was also that he wouldn’t tell me he had called her. He had also told her that he would be following up his call the next day with a text because he wanted me to see that he was genu8nely breaking contact. Apparently she told him not to send a text and got really angry with him. So Saturday night I was fuming, I had no reason to believe anything that he said, that maybe he wouldn’t be sending the text because he hadn’t actually broken contact. I had no closure, it was all about protecting her feelings because she started chemo today.
On Sunday morning he said he had jumped in the car to come home because me telling him it was over really frightened him. He got home and I was out for 4 hrs and he felt really afraid and lost. I took all of this with a pinch of salt. He said he would show me his commitment by blocking her. I felt he had made me look stupid as she would know I didn’t know he had called but that he was going to send her a text the next day to appease me. We tried to have a nice day, even though I was so angry about him shutting me out of s9mething we had agreed to do together. His argument was that I would never have agreed to him calling her.
Today has been awful, I don’t believe a word he tells me anymore, yet he is adamant he did break contact on Saturday . He asked me this morning if I wanted him to send the text. I said I would think on it. This afternoon I said I do need that closure, so yes, send the text. It was then apparent that he didn’t want to do it, didn’t want to rub her nose in it, because she started her chemotherapy today. He offered me full access to his phone and computer, spot check, anytime, anyplac, but that he would send the text if I really wanted him to. I said if it was going to cause more tension and resentment between us then no, not to send it. So we then spend while deleting her and blocking her.
There is very little love between us right now. He doesn’t like the angry, sarcastic b1tch that I was on Saturday night and I don’t like the liar that seems to always make me have to suck up my feelings, whereas OW is protected. I know her circumstances are bad - I’m trying to be sympathetic to that. So we ended up having a talk about where we go from here and I have to say he sounds completely ambivalent, and so did I (even though I was probably pretending I wasn’t sure, just because I don’t want to be treated like a doormat).
I have to say, we seem to have gone backwards a long long way.
((Pommy))
What a painful experience this all sounds like Usually I'm one to jump to advise giving but not today. I just want to say you are 100% valid in all of your feelings right now. We cannot be perfect human beings when the heart has gone through so much pain. Not sure if it's him or you calling you a b!tch but whomever - give yourself grace. Getting back your M is not to do be done at the sacrifice of self worth or self respect. It is okay that you don't want to be lied to.
Be kind to yourself. Multiple your self care by 1000.
You are perfectly imperfect Pommy. And we are here for you. Sending love your way.
(((Pommy)))
Seconding Valeska--- be kind to yourself, this is awful and you deserve to be angry and sad and all the rest. There is nothing wrong with taking a time out on him and working on your M and just focusing on YOU. My IC said it was like a laptop going into power saver mode-- just focus on what you need, to get through the next minute, hour, day. Conserve the juice you have for your most important parts-- you and your kids-- you don't need anything for extremities and right now, he's a power-sucking peripheral.
And sister... I really know how you feel and sending all the empathy I can your way. You are strong and smart and will get through this, though, one way or another. You've already been through so much and every time you grow in strength and resilience. So, just know that. Even in this time that feels so devastating all over again, you sound so much stronger and powerful than you did say in January or so.
This does feel like there are a lot of parallels, still, with my H. I think they get stuck in this lying circle where it seems easier to lie and they don't have as much stopping them from lying, because they've been doing it all along, so like this last little lie isn't going to hurt anyone if it helps me get to where I need to get without damaging either my W or OW too much. It feels a lot like my H's made-up "email" that he sent her rather than being honest about the fact that they were back in communication.
And the lying-- I totally agree it is simply not to be tolerated. Does he realize that every time he pulls this $hit it just pushes you farther and farther away from wanting to trust him again? That his weakness and inability to prioritize you in all of this over OW could eventually make reconciliation/piecing with you impossible? His choices have consequences and if he's choosing to stay, it just seems so illogical of him (my H too) to make thing more difficult for you. I guess it is just pure selfishness and inability, right now, to see beyond their own needs/emotions.
I'll say this about the OW communication, though, also having gone through this a couple of times before now-- I am realizing that for me, there was a not insignificant part of my wanting H to tell her it's OVER FOREVER that was kind of petty. I was telling myself it was so that she got the picture and stayed out of it. There is definitely a part of it, for me, that wanted her to back the F off and realize she was an idiot for pursuing a married man, it was never going to go anywhere, he was never going to leave his W, etc etc.
but in all honesty... it does nothing for me to have her "know" that. It shouldn't matter to me at all. She could go through the rest of her life imagining she had a special connection with my H and it warms the cockles of her heart at night... so what. That means nothing. The only thing that means anything is how my H feels and how I feel. Not that either of us are feeling much positive right now, either. But I'm starting to let go of caring about her, at all. I'm not saying this was a motivator for you at all, but it was for me (even though it has taken me some time to admit it).
Finally, don't worry about being a b!tch. He deserves it. Maybe not how you want to act in the future but don't worry about it-- let it go. Hoping you can get some space and maybe some time with your kids and a nice G&T, good book, or something else just for you.
xx M
PM99,
I'm sorry you had a rough weekend. Unfortunately this is what happens when recons are forced or done for the wrong reasons. I think what really gets lost on the board is that when/if the affair ends the marriage will be saved. The affair was a symptom and an act of anger by your husband. Now you are forcing him to end the affair which will build more resentment. It's going to take a really long time to to tear down that wall.
I'm really sorry you are going through this right now. 18 months and still not end in sight would take its toll on anyone.
How's it going, Pommy? Thinking of you. xx M
May, LH, Valeska, thanks for your support. I haven't posted for a week - I'm trying to just "be" without over-analyzing everything. We've had two MC sessions since I last posted. Both have been very good although we've really delved into H and his EA. MC likes to simply call it an A, which sometimes hits really hard, but it is true, it was an A.
Even up until today, H does not believe he had an A, he does not believe he had anything more than a friendship with another woman and that the reason he kept it from me and lied so much was because he knew it would make me angry. He still cant take any responsibility that it was inappropriate. MC spelled it out to him - the secrecy, coverups, lies are all behaviours of an A and not telling me was not to protect me, but to protect the fact he was having an A. This is the first time H has faced this head-on. MC asked what was said during the NC conversation. H explained that he told OW he had to go NC as it was upsetting me, that *I* saw their relationship as an A. Again, MC pointed out, he has shifted this onto me, thus avoiding any responsibility of admitting having had an A. I felt huge relief that this was all being said and exposed. H freely admits he had feelings for her, yet spends so much time justifying the relationship as simply a friendship. He does not seem to recognise not just how inappropriate his own behaviour was, but also EAP's behaviour - how deceitful she was to her own H.
He talked for the 100th time about the connection he had with OW and also the guilt he is carrying this week about breaking contact right after her diagnosis. MC queried if there was room in his head for a connection with me. If H was spending his time thinking about her, feeling guilty that he had hurt her. MC challenged if H needed to feel guilty, and that - as I had pointed out- she had her own H and family to support her, that the burden did not lie with H. MC asked if he was discussing his feelings with me and H said no, because he knew that it hurts me to talk about her and that I don't really want to hear about it. I agreed and said I felt I had heard enough about how much he cares, and his connection and how she was X,Y & Z, and I'm not X, Y and Z. MC has asked H to externalize his feelings - especially the guilt - write it down rather than carry it round in his head all the time. On the plus side, he has (again) acknowledged that she could be attention-seeking and he didn't like that side of her.
H said he felt like we were going over old ground and it wasn't helpful. MC asked if it was helpful - I said yes, as clearly there are things that I am unable to put to bed. MC sees us being at the beginning of the recon process as unfortunately, not having dealt with NC and the A has set us back again, and he warned us that it is going to be slow. We talked about disclosure, and the Qs that I feel I need answered in order to heal, in order to know whether my intuition was right or wrong, that once I could stop self-doubting myself I could begin the process of trusting him again.
I talked about how I felt that I didn't know if H was in or out right now, if H had one foot out of the door. H responded to say he had both feet in the doorway and was waiting to be welcomed in. I have no idea what this means. Right now I feel that this is his M to walk away from, his family to walk away from, his home to walk away from. I don't think he is in that place right now. We did talk about wedding rings - H told me weeks ago he wanted us to be able to put them back on together - that hasn't happened. He has since put his on (unannounced) and said last week he assumed I wasn't wearing mine because I couldn't be bothered. I explained that I needed to feel from him that he is committed to working on our marriage. Yesterday the subject came up again - I said he gave me the rings as a request to be his wife, then he fired me. I'm not asking to renew our vows or anything like that, but I would like just a sign from him that we are trying to live as H & W. He told me he loved me, that he doesn't like to think that he fired me. I guess all I want is for him to say "go and put your rings on", but I guess for whatever reason it is too much pressure right now - although I cant understand why he put his on if he doesn't want me to wear mine.
Aside from all that, H and I have done what we do best - get on, be affectionate, cuddle a lot, go cycling together - perfect companions, all without the deep level of emotional intimacy that we are both looking for.
PM99,
Quickly I just want to chime in that it sounds like he feels ganged up on in MC. Everyone knows that it was wrong and an affair and it sounds like you are looking for vindication. Do you want to be right or married?
I get the feeling that you and May are at the "reconciliation at all costs" stage and it must be done quickly to alleviate my fears.
It doesn't work that way. The WW has to see the LBS as a person of value that they are willing to work for to remain in their lives.
I'm sorry you are going through this right now.
LH, I think the MC is very impartial and likes to challenge a way of thinking rather than state that "you did this". So in terms of him stating H had an affair, he actually said "what makes an affair of any kind an affair is the secrecy and the lies" - although he has called H's relationship an A from day 1 as that is how he sees it - which it was, right? Even H said himself yesterday he doesn't see it as an affair as it wasn't sexual.
I'm not looking for vindication at all. I have spent 18 months second-guessing myself, doubting my intuition, with H seemingly blinkered about how this other relationship impacted him, me and the marriage, and how it continues to impact. Do I have anger to process? Yes, I do, but I am trying to use MC as a structured environment in which to process it. Do I feel that my feelings are constantly quashed? Yes, I do, and again MC is a way of laying out my feelings and for MC to present them to H from a neutral standpoint.
I don't believe we are ganging up on H at all - H may disagree of course! I just think H is being made to face head-on some uncormfortable truths. How he chooses to process them is now down to him. I have left the last two MC sessions feeling like a weight has been lifted, that I do have a voice, and my feelings can be heard. H says he feels relief that this is all coming out. That he does want to talk about these things because he hates carrying round the burden and the guilt.
Who knows how this will pan out - but right now I just feel relief that someone is able to validate and ratify my feelings.
Hi Pommy,
I updated on my own thread the last couple of days on where I am in all of this and I don't think we are ready for MC at this point. I want to just focus on myself for a bit, figuring out how to process my own emotions and leave H be to his.
That being said, for you guys-- I sense that your H is having a tough time facing his own actions-- not even being able to name what he did as an A is pretty major denial for starters. It is good that he feels relief in talking about these things and not carrying them around inside. Have you guys talked at all about what other truths there might still be left to be discovered?
Also, thinking that maybe for the time being letting him process all this on his own a bit and not pushing him faster than he is willing to be pushed is a good idea. Assuming the MC is a professional and can gauge the right amount of pressure that H can take. Even though this experience is validating for you, I still don't think you want your H to feel as though he is being ganged up on. I could be wrong but from his behavior and responses in the past, it doesn't seem he responds well to that, necessarily. If your H is saying he feels you're going over old ground and that isn't helpful for him (even though it is for you), what would H find helpful from a session and maybe you could let him start with that next time?
I've been thinking recently about the conversations I had in the fall and early spring with my DB coach, and re-read my notes from them. She said multiple times that the number one predictor of couples that recover from an A and go on to M2.0 is friendship, backed by Gottman's work. She talked about romance being the fruit of the tree of the R, and right now it looks dead from the outside. You need to water the roots and have the leaves come out before it is ready to fruit again. The roots, trunk, branches are your friendship and you can't pick the fruit before it is ready-- patience being my biggest challenge. Anyway, I say that in response to this:
Aside from all that, H and I have done what we do best - get on, be affectionate, cuddle a lot, go cycling together - perfect companions, all without the deep level of emotional intimacy that we are both looking for.
I know people here are super worried about being friend-zoned and of course Esther Perel talks about a lot of that and the general disconnect between long-term relationships and desire in Mating in Captivity. But that definitely wasn't the view of the DB coach and MWD, Gottman, and Glass all really focus on spending time together and working on your friendship as a first step in affair recovery (once you've dealt with all the fallout of the discovery), that the feelings will come back in time. So IDK. I maybe wouldn't worry about it so much. It isn't really within your control anyway. If you're enjoying yourself on the bike rides and OK with him being there and not moving forward with S or D, then I would push you to just be okay with where you are right now. You have plenty of time.
Honestly-- being friends with your H is not the worst thing in the world. And once he gets some time and space and distance from the OW, can start to process his own emotions and behaviors and what they mean, there is time for your connection together to deepen and resurface. But it will probably be slower if you are poking at it all the time. (Telling myself this too.)
My rings are still off too. IDK when I'll put them back on. I'm not going to worry about it for now. Maybe it does come across as pressure for your H to think you're waiting for some big sign from him to put them back on and he doesn't know what to do about that. From a 180 standpoint... I wonder what would happen if you did just put them back on and not say anything. It could be a signal to him that you are willing to open the door to him as he stands on the doorstep and work on the M. They are just rings after all and only have the significance you place on them. I'm not suggesting you do that if it doesn't feel right to you, but maybe it would help to just lighten things up a bit if you could say, OK, I'm here too, I'm willing to work on our M even though I'm not feeling everything I want to feel right now. It is more like thinking about love as an action rather than a feeling. Just a thought for you to take or leave.
Hang in there, Pommy.
xx M
Hi Pommy,
Wow, I read your latest updates. You see the long road, and are taking small steps along it.
From the peanut gallery never having dealt with an affair, I love that you required him to cut off contact to his EAP and took away some of his power with "I could walk.", and what May says about giving him having to have the time he needs to process each step of his changes (e.g. recognizing it was an affair). Anyway, kind thoughts and prayers your way! It's nice to see your situation leaning in a positive direction.
I just feel relief that someone is able to validate and ratify my feelings.
Have you thought about scheduling some IC sessions for that purpose?
That being said, for you guys-- I sense that your H is having a tough time facing his own actions-- not even being able to name what he did as an A is pretty major denial for starters. It is good that he feels relief in talking about these things and not carrying them around inside. Have you guys talked at all about what other truths there might still be left to be discovered?
MC asked if I have a list of Qs - I do. He suggested I re-review my Qs and see which ones I feel I need an answer to. He also suggested that H and I do this away from the house, maybe go for a walk and talk. Since the session, I have read my list but right now I don't know if this is the right time. In some ways I feel we are focusing to much energy on that and OW. This weekend, we need to get back to enjoying life and not focusing on the negative stuff. Perhaps I just have to accept the Qs are petty in the grand scheme of things - there were a huge amount of lies over 12 months, so knowing who he went off to phone on holiday 18 months ago probably isn't that important (although I've been carrying this for 18 months and wondering why I cant let it go).
If your H is saying he feels you're going over old ground and that isn't helpful for him (even though it is for you), what would H find helpful from a session and maybe you could let him start with that next time?
This is a good point. I will suggest this to him. I did push him a little today around lack of intimacy and he reassured me that he feels we've been spending better quality time together and feeling closer. He did also say I'm trying to push him too fast. We did agree, however, that the events of the last 3 weeks have caused us to derail a bit and we haven't been doing our MC "homework" and we need to start that again. I sat down and thought about what he HAS done over the last 2 weeks in the name of the M and I felt a little guilty for not allowing him some time to process everything. Like you, I struggle for patience - I think that is because my timeline is 20 months in and counting...his is a lot shorter. He told me more about how the NC conversation went with OW - she got really angry with him and made him feel guilty, saying that she would never have done that to him ,would never block him, would have always been there for him etc etc. That's what's been playing on his mind but MC session helped him release some of that - H said he realized she wasn't his responsibility anymore. (I bit my tongue as I thought "and when WAS this married woman your responsibility?" !!!)
I've been thinking recently about the conversations I had in the fall and early spring with my DB coach, and re-read my notes from them. She said multiple times that the number one predictor of couples that recover from an A and go on to M2.0 is friendship, backed by Gottman's work. She talked about romance being the fruit of the tree of the R, and right now it looks dead from the outside. You need to water the roots and have the leaves come out before it is ready to fruit again. The roots, trunk, branches are your friendship and you can't pick the fruit before it is ready
- I very much agree with this, but I guess I start to panic that the tree isn't growing (after all I am trying to watch it grow every single day!!) and then I do something dumb like over-water it!
Maybe it does come across as pressure for your H to think you're waiting for some big sign from him to put them back on and he doesn't know what to do about that. From a 180 standpoint... I wonder what would happen if you did just put them back on and not say anything. It could be a signal to him that you are willing to open the door to him as he stands on the doorstep and work on the M. They are just rings after all and only have the significance you place on them. I'm not suggesting you do that if it doesn't feel right to you, but maybe it would help to just lighten things up a bit if you could say, OK, I'm here too, I'm willing to work on our M even though I'm not feeling everything I want to feel right now. It is more like thinking about love as an action rather than a feeling. Just a thought for you to take or leave.
I do feel I have made this a bigger deal than it needed to be - one of those things that eats away at you and you try and say nothing, waiting for them to act, and knowing that if you say something and they act, you feel like they are only doing it because you asked them to. Respect to H as he has not taken action lol. He has made lots of references over the last few days to me being his wife ("happy wife =happy life" kind of things!). I'm still learning and still confused May, as with your H, I don't get the ILYs, but he does tell me he loves me when we're having R conversations. (I get it..."in love" vs something else). GD this is hard! Thank you so much for your support
Have you thought about scheduling some IC sessions for that purpose?
Hi Cwarrior, I haven't had regular IC for a while although it was helping earlier in the year. I guess what I felt relief over this week was that my feelings were being aired and heard in front of H. Maybe I've been more confident in talking about how I feel, MC has encouraged me to speak up after I said that I always felt my feelings were being quashed and that I was being pushed into the corner to suck up and accept H's behaviours. I think I am becoming more vocal about what I will and won't put up with. I kind of like that. I actually feel like H is starting to take me more seriously. Perhaps I'm finally learning about boundaries
I guess what I felt relief over this week was that my feelings were being aired and heard in front of H. Maybe I've been more confident in talking about how I feel, MC has encouraged me to speak up after I said that I always felt my feelings were being quashed and that I was being pushed into the corner to suck up and accept H's behaviours. I think I am becoming more vocal about what I will and won't put up with. I kind of like that. I actually feel like H is starting to take me more seriously. Perhaps I'm finally learning about boundaries
This is great Pommy. We teach people how to treat us. Your H is allowed to feel whatever he wants to. So you are you. It's not an either/or situation... it's about learning how to hold both.
I think being vocal is often the first step to learning boundaries because it's a way for us to "pump ourselves up". It's a way of looking in the mirror and saying "I want to be treated this way. I am worth of being treated this way". And that's such a great and crucial step.. so Kudos.
Now that you have said those things to your H - what does it look in actions? How do you not get pushed into that corner? That's the next step and will most likely be the step when the real ugly push back will begin.
Pommy... I think your feelings about focusing too much on OW and the affair are probably correct. The affair was not about the OW...she was just the “fix” for whatever it was that was missing in your MR. Focus on that. The more you do, the less it will matter what he did when. All of that is in the past. You can’t change it so let it go and make the creation of MR 2.0 your priority. IMO...getting answers to all of your questions won’t do anything except increase your resentment over what he did (doesn’t matter if it is justified or not) and make him feel more ashamed. I don’t think that will do either of you any good in the long run. (((HUGS)))
Pommy, I go on record in this forum all the time as saying that there is NOTHING wrong with saying "he cheated, I can't handle that as it is one of my dealbreakers" and Ding him. That is completely within your rights to do. Even the most conservative of Christian religions allows for D in the case of infidelity.
But you have to make that choice. Either put the A in the rearview mirror and move forward, and admit you will never be able to get over it and end your D. Dealbreakers are good. We should all have them. And if one of them gets violated then we should be willing to stand by our principles and end things. Nothing is weaker than having a dealbreaker, and then letting it get violated. As Valeska said, we teach others how to treat us. If we give up on our principles as soon as our S violates one then we've taught them that it ok to violate principles by letting them get away with it.
Never compromise on your principles.
How are things going, Pommy? Thinking of you! xx
Hello DBers….it's been a while!
I didn't intentionally stop posting....but a bunch of things happened in succession and I just didn't feel in the right headspace to share it all.
The last time I posted, the story as we knew it (mid Oct) was that H and I had been trying to reconcile for 3 months. He hadn't seen EAP for over 6 months. In mid Sept I caught him texting her after she had contacted him (supposedly after several months of no contact) to tell him she had cancer. H was reluctant to go NC with her given her diagnosis but eventually broke contact 2 weeks later. Some of that story as we knew it was BS.
In a nutshell, this is what happened since
- Mid-Oct - we all got Covid
- End Oct - H asked me to put my rings back on
- BD mid November - affair relapse - H and OW were caught emailing (intimately) by her H. I asked H to leave.
- H begged and pleaded for me to give him another chance. ILY, and I AM ILWY, etc. I took some time on this
- Pre-Xmas - H opened up and shared a lot about the A, wanted a fresh start for the M, but also became ambivalent as A withdrawal hit
- Post-Xmas - H seriously grieving, very depressed
- H now in IC and feeling happier, NC with OW since Nov BD, H's commitment to trying is high. Still missing the 'in love' piece of the R
- Pommy??? Good days/bad days, no idea how this is going to pan out.
In more detail:
Covid - we all got off lightly, fortunately. I felt more tired than anything, and the second week very depressed - that was probably more to do with H than Covid
Rings - went out for dinner to celebrate end of our quarantine - H asked me to put my rings on. The next day we had a fantastic day out and we chose a beautiful gift for my forthcoming birthday
Bomb Drop - H told me he'd been in contact with OW, to find out how her treatment was going. He said this was about 3-4 weeks prior (while we had Covid) and they'd messaged for about a week. I was angry and upset that he'd reneged on NC. I later took his phone and looked at his sent mail. There was an email trail from the day before - they'd got caught by her H. OW blamed H for her getting caught out. Her H was going to send me the emails. I asked H what the h3ll was going on, what was in the emails - apparently ILY, sexual things. I told H I was insulted that he felt worthy of wearing his wedding ring - he promptly took it off. That night, I asked him to leave, that he was not a H to me. The following day he asked me if I still felt the same. Yes I still felt the same. He was pretty distraught, said he would break contact with OW immediately. I was calm and told him I didn't care if he rode off into the sunset with her. It was too late, they were welcome to each other. Later, he showed me a txt - he'd told OW he'd told me everything and he arranged to call her that afternoon. Told me he was going to end all contact. I just shrugged and said do what you need to do, it doesn't affect me. He went out to call her and came back and sent her a follow-up text in front of me to say that he wouldn't be contacting her again and didn't want to hear from her again. I just shrugged again. At that point I think he felt he'd lost everything - me, his family, his home - and OW.
I was calm but I felt decisive. The next day he pleaded with me to give him another chance - to think about what I would be giving up. I just shook my head - he'd gone and risked everything and now wanted me to think about what I would be giving up. He was a mess - breaking down etc.
In the midst of the calmness I felt this immense loss. I saw myself standing there with a massive hole right through my body where he had ripped my heart out. The pain was incredible.
Over the coming days H started to show some remorse and humility that I hadn't seen before. He talked about his shame, the pain he'd caused, how he hated himself, how he wanted to find his moral compass again, to be of value to me, to prove he could be a good husband. We talked more openly and he told me a huge amount that I hadn't known before. That not being in contact from June-Sep was a lie, that in Sept they had been emailing that they missed each other back then. I asked him where he had wanted the R with her to go, what did he think was going to happen when I found out. He said he thought I would always be there. We explored some A articles and he finally began to relate to the concept of limerence, addiction, relapse. That being in contact with her every few weeks was a dopamine fix. He talked about the fact that he knew he didn't like her that much, that he'd glossed over all her faults, when she replied it made him anxious, she made him feel bad about himself, that she was manipulative and controlling, yet at the same time she'd been the one to pull him out of a hole when him and I were in our worst place, and being in contact with her gave him a lift. It made sense but it didn't excuse his choices or the way he had treated me.
My birthday was approaching - I told H that I did not want the gift as it would always remind me of a time that he cheated on me. H wanted to reframe it as representing a fresh start for the both of us.
In the run up to Xmas, as I started to lean in, H started to lean out again. A month had passed - at this point he would usually have been in contact with OW again - he was suffering withdrawal and I was completely without trust . H was adamant that he didn't want to walk that path again, but was clearly not in a happy place. I didn't want to make any decisions before Xmas for the sake of the children.
In the NY H got himself an IC. He was incredibly depressed. Things felt very unstable and I felt very insecure. H was ambivalent and could not commit to the M. But he would commit to "trying" to make it work. I struggled with this concept
As Jan wore on, my feelings started to change towards H. We were closer, more intimate - but I'd been in that place before. I was frightened of my feelings and vulnerability but at the same time I enjoyed how it felt. H was still all over the place and swung between loving and affectionate to unsure about our future. The ILYs were rare but he started to talk more about the future, and things that would involve the both of us. Feb was calm and H seemed to make real progress with IC. We've had a few blow ups which have been reminiscent of old dynamics - not good - but we are learning to deal with them better.
Where we are now is that H is completely in a place where he accepts and understands that it is going to take time for his feelings to return for me - if they ever do. He is committed to making it work - but that's not the same as re-committing to the M. He is driving this, he says he wants this. We have read articles and talked with our MC that seem to indicate that it takes time for feelings to come back, and it's normal for those to be missing for many months, and to expect 12-18 months before being in a place of being able to fully commit. That's the bit I struggle with. Save 2 weeks in Nov, I haven't worn my rings the whole 9 months that we have been reconciling. Of course for me, I am already 2 years into this journey since BD, so every passing month where we are not where I want us to be is like a ticking time bomb.
I don't know if we will ever get there. I don't know if we will ever get beyond being good companions and find passion between us - it's been missing for so long. For a long time I wanted to save this M on principle, for my kids, for fear, as well as feeling that I loved H. Now that we are getting to know and understand each other better, I realise that I am capable of loving him so much more deeply. That scares me, and at times I think it is pushing me backwards - when I don't get what I crave from the R, the security, the deep love, I feel anxious and my walls go up. I feel scared to love and be vulnerable - it's not a good place to be.
In the last week or 2 H has talked about turning a corner in regard to OW, that he can see that he was grieving and that he is now moving through that. The good feelings she invoked are being nullified by the realization that she wasn't always nice to him and that his early doubts about her were right. I do feel she is firmly in the rear view mirror....which means it's now simply me, H and our M.
H talks about the future, he is trying so, so hard to meet my needs. Yet I feel so anxious and I don't know what it is that I need that would make that go away. I know a large part of it is uncertainty - and he cant give me that. I know the romance and passion isn't flowing and I wonder if we'll ever be able to recreate that. This month is hard and I do feel very down - 2 yr anniversary of BD, 1 yr anniversary of H moving out, H's B'day - in which OW played a huge part (sabotaged) the last 2 years. And finally, our wedding anniversary - I don't even know how to deal with an anniversary. I restart IC tomorrow.
Hi Pommy
Nice to hear from you and glad you survived Covid!
I know you say your H is making progress but its a little hard to tell at this moment. He's been wafting for quite awhile and seems honestly - stuck - whilst still enjoying all the pleasures of a married life.
Is him not having those kind of feelings acceptable for you? And for how long? Perhaps it would be good to think about how long you are will to stand. 2 years is an awfully long time and your MC is adding another 12-18 months??
How is he trying to meet your needs? . What is he doing differently this time? What are you willing to do differently?
You anxiety makes sense because he is consistent on his pattern to go back to OW. How do you break the pattern?
((Pommy))
Oh Pommy, I'm sorry it's been so hard.
I think it's fine if you go slow to figure this out. I see that he seems to have a pattern where if he feels like you aren't going anywhere, he feels more comfortable and pulls away. And if you assert yourself and say basically, "I'm not putting up with this and I'm out of here," he runs toward you. So the hard question is, why? Does he love you or is he just afraid of losing the comfort of having you there.
I did this limbo life with my H for four years, and we are getting divorced. Part of me regrets the time, and part of me doesn't because I can say I did everything I could. So how long do you want to do this? You may not have the answer right now, but just think about it. I don't want you to betray yourself or pretzel yourself to make someone else comfortable.
I took a break in the last year and pulled back from him and really worked on myself. I mean really. I worked on building my sense of self-worth, of trying to figure out what my future looked like for me whether I was married or not.
I read a lot. Love Addiction by Pia Mellody was huge. I followed her plan for six months to break any need to be with him so I could then decide if I wanted to be with him. In the end, he decided to file. I do not believe it is because I stopped trying so hard. I think it pushed us faster to the place it was going anyway. I stopped putting up with his behavior. I really saw some things I had avoided seeing. He refused to stop working with her. I realized that his need to work with her (whether for fear of hurting her or because he didn't want his business hurt) came before making things right with me. Came before my needs. So even though this is hard, I know I am going to be okay.
I want you to be able to love yourself and take care of yourself and your needs. But even before that, to know what your needs are. What are your dealbreakers? What is the point where you would rather be alone than live a certain way?
I'm sorry Pommy. Much love to you. You are courageous and strong and kind and wonderful.
OG: Hi. I come on here from time to time and specifically look for you. I have wondered what happened. It sounds like you made it to the other side and I am happy for you. You didn't deserve to be so miserable. Find yourself a cute 35 year old and have some fun.
Best wishes, Newbie
Hi Pommy,
It is really good to hear from you. I have been thinking a lot about you and wondering how you are doing. I have to say it is somehow very comforting to know that you're still in piecing, even if things aren't exactly peachy. I think there is still just a long road ahead no matter what happens, and D is no picnic either. You (and I) are in tough spots and unfortunately the only way out is to go through. I'm wondering if you, me, and Wayfarer should move our threads over to piecing? I feel there would be some value to it and can share more of my thoughts if you guys were also interested. It would be nice to see some movement over there. SamCal (if she's still around), I think BluWave and Steve already have threads over there... anyone else?
I have a lot of thoughts but only a couple of minutes, and want to mostly say... I know how you feel, so so so so much. (((Pommy))) This is all so hard and of course you feel angry and scared and vulnerable and anxious. It's OK. But here are some things people have been telling me which has helped: try to de-stress and focus on the present and releasing your anxiety. Dial up to 20,000 feet and stretch out your timeline. Are you OK where you are, right now? Of course not perfect, but are you OK doing what you are doing and moving in the direction you're moving, even not knowing what lies at the end?
If so, maybe you can just take things a day at a time, or a week at a time, and try to squelch that need to analyze exactly where he is and you are and is it moving in the right direction or not. Just relax and try to enjoy the positive things about where you are right now. Your health, your girls, the fact that he is trying and not in touch with EAP. That you know it is just you, him and the M. That is such a major step from where you were before, right? I do try to be grateful for where we are and the progress we've made, even when it isn't where I want to be, yet.
Also-- what are you doing for you? I think the self-care piece continues to be really critical. The more you can focus on you and whatever it is that feeds your soul, the less time and energy you'll have to worry about what your H is or isn't giving you at the moment and how paltry that seems compared to the vision of M2.0.
Hang in there. Maybe let's raise a G&T to each other tonight??
xx M
OG: Hi. I come on here from time to time and specifically look for you. I have wondered what happened. It sounds like you made it to the other side and I am happy for you. You didn't deserve to be so miserable. Find yourself a cute 35 year old and have some fun.
Best wishes, Newbie
Oh Newbie, you're so kind! Thank you for caring about me! I don't want to hijack Pommy's thread, but I will let you know I am planning to update tomorrow. I am too drained to do it tonight!
Please take care! xo
I know you say your H is making progress but its a little hard to tell at this moment. He's been wafting for quite awhile and seems honestly - stuck - whilst still enjoying all the pleasures of a married life.
Is him not having those kind of feelings acceptable for you? And for how long? Perhaps it would be good to think about how long you are will to stand. 2 years is an awfully long time and your MC is adding another 12-18 months??
How is he trying to meet your needs? . What is he doing differently this time? What are you willing to do differently?
Hi Valeska, good to hear from you! I don't think H would deny that part of the reason he is here is because he enjoys the comforts of married life, plus he doesn't want to break up the family. He knows there is a big trade off and that he would have a lot to lose. I do firmly believe that OW is not an attraction right now. The things he has been working through with his IC and how he has opened up to me about their R don't paint a pretty picture. I think he has actually been quite hurt by that R.
I do struggle with him not having feelings, he keeps assuring me he is committed to working on this, and both his IC and MC state this is not a 5-minute fix and will take time for both of us to process the A as well as deal with all the problems that led to our demise before that. 2 years is a long time - 18 months longer than I originally thought I would stand, and I'm still standing...and whilst I seem to have hit this milestone in my head, and my head is sometimes telling me enough is enough and I deserve more, I can also rationalize that it's not been 2 years, it's only been 4 months that I have supposedly had his commitment to working on the M. What I do know with 100% certainty is that there are no more chances.
He is definitely trying. When I ask for emotional support/connection or tell him how certain events/dynamics/patterns make me feel, he has made an effort to address them. He is doing so much to build goodwill and make me feel like I matter. I have asked what he needs from me, what I need to do differently and I don't get much feedback.
You anxiety makes sense because he is consistent on his pattern to go back to OW. How do you break the pattern?
This is exactly what my IC told me this week - I am waiting for the next BD - and whilst it might not be OW, it might simply be a declaration of "I don't know what I want right now, I'm not sure how I feel " - which is how he was at the start of the year. She said intuition = knowledge + experience, and it has happened to me several times before, and I know how awful it feels, and I am waiting for it to happen again. I am struggling to remove myself from that thought cycle. IC talked about trust and how H needs to come back down to my level and help me step up but I really want to explore healing myself, and not being dependent on H to soothe my anxiety. I need to feel that I will be fine without him.
I think it's fine if you go slow to figure this out. I see that he seems to have a pattern where if he feels like you aren't going anywhere, he feels more comfortable and pulls away. And if you assert yourself and say basically, "I'm not putting up with this and I'm out of here," he runs toward you. So the hard question is, why? Does he love you or is he just afraid of losing the comfort of having you there
{{{OG}}} !!!! It's so good to hear from you. I had been wondering about you last summer when you didn't post for a long time. Yes, you have hit on Valeska's point too - H finds comfort and stability in being with me. I am his best companion (ugh, I hate that word....it's so passionless) and he admits he is terrified of S/D. I know he loves me, but I think there is still an element of ILYB. We both know we want and need more and he really does want to get to that place - so do I. If it works, it is the best outcome for all of us - so at least I think now we seem to finally be on the same page we should try and see what is possible for us. It is interesting what you say about your detachment taking you faster to a destination that you were already headed for - that is my worry, that we are just dragging this out, that the end result will be D - right now I honestly don't know. Our M hadn't worked for a long time....but with the right knowledge going forward, could we possibly get to a place of fulfillment? In some ways, I feel we have a real opportunity to hit the M reset button, at a time when in our age group, so many other Ms are going stale.
I have to say it is somehow very comforting to know that you're still in piecing, even if things aren't exactly peachy.
{{{May}}} !!! I have wondered about you so much - I will post on your thread when I get some proper time. Are we in piecing? I still feel that there is too much uncertainty over the M, that I am still grappling sometimes with a stay or go mentality - head vs heart thing. It doesn't seem to matter what I throw at H , he returns to the "I'm committed to working on things". Is that piecing? Neither of us are threatening S or D. H does sometimes say "if things don't work out....", which I find a little unnerving, but it's usually in relation to a reassurance that if things don't work out he can now guarantee that I will never see him with OW.
Dial up to 20,000 feet and stretch out your timeline. Are you OK where you are, right now? Of course not perfect, but are you OK doing what you are doing and moving in the direction you're moving, even not knowing what lies at the end?
Honestly May, I'm not sure if I am OK. I don't know if that is because this month is so, so hard, or because I am scared it wont work out, or something else. IC has made me feel a whole lot better this week - I couldn't understand why I felt so bad when H seems to be listening to what I need - even if he isn't able to give me all of it - plus he feels he has turned a corner with moving on from the A - plus he repeatedly says he is committed to working things out. Yet I still feel so fragile and I didn't understand why. I do feel better since I have spoken to her. I know H has his own issues to work through, and I know this will all take time. I know I need to fill my time better for myself - not so easy as we are still in full lockdown, but there are things I could be doing to help myself more.
That you know it is just you, him and the M. That is such a major step from where you were before, right?
That's the scary bit - we both have a clear perspective - nothing in our forward or peripheral vision to distract us emotionally - we can fully focus on healing and rebuilding. It's an amazing opportunity but it's also a very scary prospect. Is it normal to feel that way?
PM99
I am glad you are posting again.
Your sitch has me stumped and speechless and that never happens lol. On one hand I am not a fan of the I am trying but the passion isn't there line. Usually it's because there is someone else. I think I believe that there is no one else. So the question becomes is he sitting tight going through the motions until OW2 comes around? I guess that is what you need to decide.
So one of the short basic principles I have learned in my readings that has been 100% spot on for me after divorce is "choose a woman who is crazy about you". It makes everything effortless. Something to think about.
Good luck PM99 I really like and respect you.
LH...thanks for stopping by! You raise so many valid points that are difficult for me to process. (Probably another reason of many that I didn't post after BD in November...I felt like everyone else here saw this coming, saw his lack of commitment (I did too), I knew all the mistakes I'd made in accepting him back too quickly last year etc etc - I didn't want them all pointed out again lol!)
Anyways...
So the question becomes is he sitting tight going through the motions until OW2 comes around? I guess that is what you need to decide.
Yep, I wonder this all the time. Maybe not so much OW2 right now - he is fully experiencing the fallout of an A and the destruction it has caused - not just to me but how it has impacted him as well. I don't think he would go down that route again. I think he would choose to spend time alone before embarking on another R. Easy to say, I guess. The cynical and untrusting side of me could feel he is biding his time until we get out of lockdown, after which he can live alone and live his life without being trapped like he was when we S last year, that he is waiting for better job security before making a move. But I would only be mind-reading if I let those thoughts take hold
Of course I want him to be crazy about me - realistically, 20 years of marriage, it's unlikely, but we should at least be fulfilled in so many different ways. I think his reasons for staying are valid - family, my GD companionship (he finds it hard to imagine a life without me), and I do think the whole idea of starting over, splitting assets etc is not something he takes lightly - that's also a valid reason IMO. BUT - all of this needs to ultimately be underpinned with love, belonging, being content and fulfilled with/by each other. That is what we are working on, that is the bit he says we are working on.
Good luck PM99 I really like and respect you.
Thank you
First, don't worry about us - or most of us at least - judging you. I can give you the full list of mistakes I made, or times I let him do something because I was too scared to let go, etc. etc. Being human is hard. And it's more hard when you have been married for a while and have a family.
Anyway, yes, you are in a hard place. Of course you are feeling fragile. Your subconscious knows that you can be hurt. And how much it hurts. Our brains want to keep us safe. It took me a long time to accept that. And then choose whatever level of "lack of safety" I could accept. I am very glad you are working on much of this with an IC.
So....at the end of the day, it seems you don't have all the information yet. I think on the face of it, trying again in a marriage because you don't want to break up your family and/or you don't like S/D is not a bad place to start, necessarily. You just don't, IMO, want to end up being someone's comfort blanket. Unless you're okay with that. For example, my sister in law and her husband are together because they are happy enough and would rather not be alone. That is enough for them, and they are one the same page. It might not be for someone else.
If he is doing what he can to "find the passion," well okay then. But if he's just waiting for it to be gifted from the fairy godmother, it's going to be a long wait. And if he wants it to feel like an affair (which I think is what my stbx wants to feel), well, we can't compete with that. Nor do I want to. And it's not fair to us.
I guess, what does "committed to trying" mean to him? What does it look like? For mine it was one foot in, one foot out. And surprise surprise it didn't work.
What are your dealbreakers? Want can you live with and what can you live without? I found I could not live with my H treating me like a roommate. Being a placeholder for when his new amazing R came along. Is he learning to fill his own holes instead of having them filled by another person or the butterfly feelings of something new? I love that you wrote you want to learn to soothe yourself. This is something I did not understand for a long time. I am of course on the crash course of it now, and here I realize...I don't necessarily miss him. He wasn't all that nice to me, and I experience nightmare after nightmare with him. But i do miss companionship. I am trying to figure out how to create a future and mindset of an exciting life even if I'm alone. That way I don't begin an R because I can't do that.
It's okay if this takes some time and you don't know exactly what you want. I know more what I want now and my dealbreakers, and it's still brutally hard.
I will say the one positive about having a spouse who had an A, is that you now know you can make it through anything. Now you know how strong you are, even when it is so very hard and painful.