#18 - Still working 2 years into Ring & Piecing

Previous thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2875333&page=11

Originally Posted by Taz

Steve85,

Read through your situation and a lot of your support posts to others. I was also in a SSM the past 15 years or so. I to resented my wife for this. I tried to discuss it with her early on but she did not want to talk about it. I actually considered leaving her at one time but my sons were much younger then and I decided to rough it out while trying to remedy the situation.

I eventually just gave up. I still respected my wife as a person and mother but the resentment caused me to become negative and cynical. I sometimes did not want to do things with her because I was so bitter about the SSM. Needless to say she left after we dropped our youngest son off at college a year ago.

I haven�t ever told her how I feel the SSM was the root of all our problems and can�t now since I�m BDing and basically NC. I realize she is a WAS but she has also shown a lot of strange MLC behaviors. If you get a chance can you check out my thread in the MLC forum as I think you may be able to offer me additional advice from you perspective and how you addressed the SSM with your W.

Thanks,

Tax

Taz, thanks. I will try to get over to MLC. I am on a special project at work right now and working long hard hours, so I haven't been spending at much time on the forum as usual. Just don't have the energy to be on a device much after 10-11 hours for work! But I will try.

I think in general, based on what you are describing, you are doing the right thing with NC. Whether she is in a MLC, whether she is aware of the SSM being an issue for you, or not really doesn't matter. I never addressed the SSM with my W. It came up in MC, and she was aware that she wasn't interested in sex for a long time. But you have to realize that LBSs often confuse underlying issues/causes with symptoms.

For instance, your SSM likely was the result of Nice Guy Syndrome issues you dealt with. For instance, you do some nice things for your W, expecting she will be in the mood later for sex. That night, or the next, you initiate, she isn't feeling it, and you get denied. So you get hurt, you pout, you have the opportunity over the next few days to do more nice things for her, but you withhold doing them because you are "resentful" of the turn down. After years of this dynamic, caused by your NGS, your W, as result of the SSM begins to exhibit MLC behaviors, when really she is just tired of being with a man that has hidden agendas, that loves having sex more than he loves his W, and decides it is time to start moving on and looking for something new.

You look back and want a cause because then you can "fix" things! If only she would have addressed the SSM, which was clearly all her fault (sarcasm). Or maybe if you could just get her past her MLC (which if it is a true MLC could last for the rest of her life!!) then all your problems could be solved.

The issue with all of this is thinking YOU can FIX her. Whether it is the SSM or the MLC, you cannot fix her. Only she can fix her. There is NOTHING...NOTHING you can do to fix her. Or your sitch. What you can do is look inwardly. How do you become the best Taz you can be? So that if your W does ever come back, or if you end up D'd and move on with someone new, you will not repeat your mistakes that contributed to your long-term SSM, and W's eventual MLC where she decided YOU were the problem and decided to leave.

Here is the thing. Maybe the above is similar to what happen. Or maybe her MLC had nothig to do with you, and even if you were the perfect H and never behaved poorly at anytime, (highly unlikely) she may have woke up one day and thought to herself "This is not what I wanted for my life. I wanted to be a world traveller, or live on the ocean or been a famous ballet-dancer, and this marriage is the reason I've always been held back!" So another mistake that LBSs often make is that their spouse's MLC is somehow related to them, and the truth is that the MLC was sleeping giant, a ticking time-bomb, and there was nothing, and is nothing, the LBS could have done, or can do to stop it.

So realize that your W's MLC may or may not have anything to do with how you were as husband. It may or may not been caused by the SSM. The SSM may not have been the cause of your marital issues, it may have been a symptom of other underlying issues with you or the marriage. And the big take away is that there is nothing you can do to fix all of this.

So it comes back to what you SHOULD be doing. Remain NC. Focus on yourself. Focus on GAL, focus on your own self-improvements. Work on, through IC and other learnings, to become detached. Which to me means a lot of things but mainly it means to learn how to be happy ON YOUR OWN. Because her is the thing, and this was one of the biggest learnings I took out of my journey: until you can be happy on your own, you cannot be happy as part of a couple. It is impossible.

Originally Posted by tom_h

Steve, I'm new here and suffering from a WAW. Without warning I was served divorce papers. You can read my story here.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2903626&page=1

Can we start talking about this, in fact can you help me through the GAL etc. stuff? I could really use someone who can assess just what I'm doing right and wrong, and since you too are a victim of this perhaps you can help? Thanks, Tom

tom_h, I have been over to your thread. I cannot remember if you read Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting, but I would start there. You came in with a fairly advanced sitch, and you started asking very specific questions, looking for support and feedback from either LBHs that had their W up and leave, or from WAWs/WWs that up and left their Hs. Those were very specific. Some of the feedback you got was related to DBing: Let her go to get her back, going strictly No Contact (the books above refer to it as Last Resort Technique). OUr usual cookie-cutter advice is:

Focus on yourself. GAL: reconnect with old friends, reengage with hobbies you used to involve, learn new hobbies and take up new ventures (go back to school? enroll in guitar lessons, etc), and work on detachment. You need to get to a point where you are happy on your own!

Please read Michelle's books though, you need that foundation for how to move forward.

Steve85,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to me despite your busy schedule. A lot of things to think about in your post and will be very helpful.

Taz

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by tom_h

Steve, I'm new here and suffering from a WAW. Without warning I was served divorce papers. You can read my story here.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2903626&page=1

Can we start talking about this, in fact can you help me through the GAL etc. stuff? I could really use someone who can assess just what I'm doing right and wrong, and since you too are a victim of this perhaps you can help? Thanks, Tom

tom_h, I have been over to your thread. I cannot remember if you read Divorce Remedy or Divorce Busting, but I would start there. You came in with a fairly advanced sitch, and you started asking very specific questions, looking for support and feedback from either LBHs that had their W up and leave, or from WAWs/WWs that up and left their Hs. Those were very specific. Some of the feedback you got was related to DBing: Let her go to get her back, going strictly No Contact (the books above refer to it as Last Resort Technique). OUr usual cookie-cutter advice is:

Focus on yourself. GAL: reconnect with old friends, reengage with hobbies you used to involve, learn new hobbies and take up new ventures (go back to school? enroll in guitar lessons, etc), and work on detachment. You need to get to a point where you are happy on your own!

Please read Michelle's books though, you need that foundation for how to move forward.

So even though my marriage is not repairable you think that DB and DR are still applicable? Probably just the parts about yourself, not about her.

By the way, a process question here. Thinking about my original post in the Newcomer's Forum, should I begin separate posts to discuss separate issues, or keep the issues all glommed together? I would like to separately discuss SSMs, since that was my situation; learning how to communicate with a woman the way she wants it; how to achieve this new state of self-happiness before I start dating or even taking a woman to a movie; how to forgive and move on; etc. Any advice?

The rule is the forum is to stick to one thread. So put it all in your current thread. Once you hit 100 posts you will be asked to start a new thread, and link the two threads together. The mods will then close your old thread.

DB/DR are extremely valuable because they will help set you up for success in your next R, whether that is with your W or someone new. Your marriage is NOT reparable, but never think that your W can't comeback. She can. What you will be challenged with is forging a new R with her, and not going back to your old R. And even if she never comes back, you are already expressing a desire for a new R (way too early in my opinion but that is up to you). So DB/DR will set you up well for avoiding D part deux in the future.

tom, I am guessing you were really young when you dated your W and got married? Am I right?

So I had to share this. Maybe it will give some of you hope for your future. I don't know but it is amazing to me considering where we were 3 years ago.

When we bought this house near the end of our sitch, right as we were starting to R and piece, it came with a pole barn. The pole barn had electric run to it, but it was not wired (with lights and outlets). I recently got a work bench for the pole barn and some shelving. Due to some other expenses I hadn't had it wired like I thought I would this spring and summer.

I left for hunting season to the hunting property last week. Was gone for about 6 days. When I came back my W surprised me in that she had an electrician come in and put lighting up in the pole barn! She was very pleased when I came home, after dark, and she could surprise me with a lighted pole barn. This is who she always was, someone that loved to surprise me. I can't tell you how pleased I am to see her being true to herself, and being secure in spending money! 3 years ago I had beaten her down to where she never would have done something like this out of fear as to how I would react.

Stay the course. DB. Self improve. Be the best you can be. Whether or not your WAS reacts positively to it or not, being the best version of you that you can be will greatly improve your life!

Originally Posted by Steve85

So I had to share this. Maybe it will give some of you hope for your future. I don't know but it is amazing to me considering where we were 3 years ago.

Thanks for sharing! People on this board (myself included) could use some good news.

Originally Posted by Steve85

When we bought this house near the end of our sitch, right as we were starting to R and piece, it came with a pole barn. The pole barn had electric run to it, but it was not wired (with lights and outlets). I recently got a work bench for the pole barn and some shelving. Due to some other expenses I hadn't had it wired like I thought I would this spring and summer.

I left for hunting season to the hunting property last week. Was gone for about 6 days. When I came back my W surprised me in that she had an electrician come in and put lighting up in the pole barn! She was very pleased when I came home, after dark, and she could surprise me with a lighted pole barn. This is who she always was, someone that loved to surprise me. I can't tell you how pleased I am to see her being true to herself, and being secure in spending money! 3 years ago I had beaten her down to where she never would have done something like this out of fear as to how I would react.

Great update. That was a very kind thing for your W to do. I remember your post back in July - a month into my W moving out - about you feeling like you were on your honeymoon again. Glad to hear things are still going well.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Stay the course. DB. Self improve. Be the best you can be. Whether or not your WAS reacts positively to it or not, being the best version of you that you can be will greatly improve your life!

Great advice! We're all trying!

Steve, it's great to hear you and your wife are having a good streak, and you're seeing positives to letting go. That sounds amazing, really. I'll cop to being controlling in the past in relationships and my career. Learning to let go more often was one of the few pluses of this whole process.

Decided to us my own thread to get a point across to LBSs that are struggling with detachment.

As many of you know, I am a huge proponent of healthy, loving detachment. It is probably one of the biggest struggles that LBSs have, learning to be detached, and that is too bad because it can have a profound effect on your sitch. And even if it doesn't, it certainly has a profound impact on the LBS!!

First, LBSs have to understand what detachment is. I've seen so many LBSs that think it means ignoring, being cold, being angry or unkind, etc. And true detachment is none of those things! I like to describe it as a state of being where you know your own worth, you own your own happiness, and because of those two rocks, you can remain emotionally even through anything.

I also like to have LBS google "self-differentiation" or "self-differentiation in marriage". Because detachment isn't something you do for a short period of time, it is really a healthy place to always be. I like to tell LBSs that if they ever want a healthy relationship in the future they first have to learn to be happy by themselves. Two people overly reliant on each other for their mental well-being is a disaster waiting to happen. Two fully individual people who are happy and healthy themselves first, can come together to make a long lasting relationship that will stand the test of time.

So how does it work:

Well if you go back to my first thread, you will see that out of the gate on BD I made all the classic mistakes. I begged, cried, pleaded, promised, used reason and logic, etc. In short, I looked like an over-attached baby, a beta (omega actually) that couldn't stand on my own, let alone command respect from my W! How unattractive that must have looked.

Her reaction was to say definitively, "I want a divorce".

I then on day 3 following BD remembered DBing. I started to reacquaint myself with DB, and started reading MWD's writing and watching her videos. I started to read other anti-D experts with similar approaches, and soon the idea of detachment came up. I vaguely remembered the concept from our first sitch 12 years before (I read MWD and other back then too), and started to change my approach to my sitch. I wasn't perfect, but unlike most LBSs (fortunately for me, unfortunately for them), I was trying extremely early (most don't find this forum and DBing until weeks or months in). And I think that is why my sitch turned around in the amount of time that it did.

So the first lesson is to start working on detachment as soon as possible! Preferably before BD but most people don't have that foresight, but at least as soon after BD as possible.

If you read back in my threads you will see that we had a bit of a hiccup in late summer 2019. The difference? This time I was an alpha, completely confident in the fact that even if she left me I would not only be fine, but move on healthy and happy! And boy did that change my approach to the situation.

There was no neediness, no pity party. It was me stating the fact that I had discovered emails from another guy (in retrospect he was definitely more into her than she was into him, but still she should have shut it down immediately instead of allowing it). But it was my handling out of the gate that really set the tone for how quickly she expressed remorse, and took ACTION (notice, not words) to correct it. Because I was a rock, I was firm but not mean or overbearing. I essentially let her know that I would not tolerate it, that I had some decisions to make for myself moving forward, but that she was free to do whatever she wanted. (One of my best lines was "I have no desire to be with someone that I have to check up on." I didn't over emphasize it. I stated everything once, and left it at that. I didn't tell her what she had to do, dictate anything to her, I simply let her know that I had my boundaries and if she crossed them I would take action.

There was a little bit of rebellion at first from her. A little defensiveness. She started in on the "snooping" aspect of it. Which I quickly shut down by saying that snooping on your spouse was no where near the transgression that entertaining the affections of a third part were and that I would not tolerate it being elevated to the same level. She never mentioned it again.

By day 2, I could see her remorse setting in. She started working on a home project she had been putting off for quite a while. She inventoried all of her accounts and made sure I had all of the login IDs and PWs. (I was insistent that I was never going to use them, but she insisted on me having them.) She took the lock ID off her phone. (I"ve since convinced her to put it back on due to the sensitive nature of personal information, like banking, so she has but I know the code.) She expressed a lot of remorse and said she was going to work on getting back to a place where she could trust herself, and have me trust her as well. And her actions have all, in the over a year since it happened, been aligned with that.

The point is that my detachment (self-differentiation) allowed me to handle this mini-sitch in 100% the right way out of the gate, and the effect it had on her was profound. But even if she had decided that she wanted to split and get a D, I would have been perfectly fine. In fact, my attitude has completely changed since we reconciled 2 1/2 years ago from "I want to stay with her no matter what!" to "I don't want to be with someone that doesn't want to be with me!" That is detachment!

Thank you Steve,

Sometimes I feel fine and others, not so much.

I feel like I am detaching, but something creeps up in my feelings and I get scared it�s not working. I need to realize that is not detachment.

I am going to reread this post when I need a little pep talk. I have been told �I want a divorce� I acknowledged, but nothing has been done since then by him. I have been trying to live forward not backwards. I definitely have felt ignored, like I am ignoring and not seeing anything.

I know H is in the middle of a MLC he has never left and that gives me time to see the ups and downs of his journey. That is good and bad in that seeing him, I know he�s home most of the time and I see how he is not present with our family.

Again, thank you for posting.

PLC

Steve85 - Thanks for the post on detachment. I certainly needed to read that tonight.

Originally Posted by PLC

Sometimes I feel fine and others, not so much.

I feel like I am detaching, but something creeps up in my feelings and I get scared it�s not working. I need to realize that is not detachment.

PLC - I've been doing much better for months now but still have "lows" and "triggers" as well. Tonight was definitely one of those. Many people on this site will say progress is not linear, and there will be those ups and downs - we both have to just keeping working on it and it will get better.

Originally Posted by Hoch

Steve85 - I�m curious to know more about your sitch, as a lot of the sexless stuff you talk about sounds similar. Do you have a thread I could read, or could you expand on how your sitch went? Especially since it lead to recon. I�m not looking for techniques, or to cherry pick (which I know is dangerous) but simply more info.

Hoch, thanks for the question. I hopped over to my thread for two reasons. 1) I didn't want to hijack your thread. 2) Because it will give you the trail back to my original threads (you can also do that by clicking on my name, Profile, Show Posts, then select Threads Created).

My sitch was already over 2 months old when I found the forum. And so there weren't a lot of posts related to my MR pre-sitch. Obviously, some of the details came out in my threads overtime. But there really was no where they really went into great detail where that MR was at BD on 12/23/2017.

I am going to be vague to try to not give away my identity but give enough clarity as to timing and dynamics.

When my W and I met, I had been dating casually. I hadn't had a relationship in a few years, and I was fine with that. But I would meet women and go on dates. I hadn't met anyone that I was really interested in pursuing. I met one girl that was 19, and was intrigued, but her immaturity quickly reared its head and I was over it after a few dates. Other than that it was several years of dating a woman 1-3 times, and then moving on. I had a few women in those years that were interested, but I quickly shut it down and moved on.

I also have mentioned that I had a long-term, on-again, off-again R with a woman that I had known since my grade school days. We were like a moth to a flame with each other, even when one of us was seeing someone else, there was a draw. Looking back I think used the idea of eventually being together as lovers as a carrot to get me to remain friends. This went on for literally decades and spanned all of my Rs as well as hers. (Just as a side, she would get upset when I started to get serious about someone.)

Then I met my W. There was an immediate spark. She was someone that I was ready go all in on and someone that I was willing to finally rip myself away from the toxicity of the on-again, off-again thing I had going on with the girl from my past. I had no desire to interact with her at all once I met my W. I was just out of the mini-R with the 19 year-old (and so grateful for that!), and after talking on the phone for hours with my W (she lived about an hour from me) we started to agree to meet for dates.

She came from a long line of long-term relationships. She found herself single from her latest for just a few months at this point. She had dated one guy that I feel was stringing her along, and that was still ending when her and I met. She recognized our spark, she realized from a beliefs and background standpoint I was a much better fit, but she did still have one foot in her just ended R. The guy's ex GF came back saying she was pregnant with his baby. He felt a duty to be with his baby's mom, but my W at the time felt there was a chance he would still chose her over the ex-GF. So while we started dating casually, she wasn't completely over him.

We dated casually, almost as friends (it started to feel like deja vu). She was resistant at first to jump back into a serious R due to her previous long-term one ending without her desire for it to a few months before, and because this latest guy seemed to want to keep her on the backburner. Eventually, she called one night and said he had said "she was free" so she wanted to give us a real shot now. But now I was hesitant. Did I really want to be a back-up plan, having been one for so long?

By then she had met a few members of my family and extended family. My cousin had a wedding coming up, that I was standing up in, and she received a personal invite from my cousin to attend. Even though we were still in a precarious place. Her not wanting to commit, me not wanting to be strung along. I told her I didn't think she should come the wedding. But since she had a personal invitation she came anyway. It was really our first official event as a couple, and from that point on we were a couple. She made her feeling known in no uncertain terms that she was full in now with me. Within months she was hinting at wanting to get married.

I am a very conservative, low-risk kind of guy. I had been a Dr. Laura listener for years by that point, and if you know Dr. Laura she advocates a minimum of 2 years dating before marriage. So I had a two year dating requirement in my head. However, I didn't voice this and just brushed off her hints at marriage. About 6 months in, she moved from an hour away from me to 5 minutes away. And the nearest felt stifling to me. We had been doing the "one weekend she'd drive down, the next I'd drive up" arrangements, except when I had my dog at my place instead of parents, or if there was some specific event. But now we lived 5 minutes from each other and she was feeling a little clingy to me.

This caused 2 things for me. 1) I started to question if I wanted a long-term commitment with her. 2) The PTSD from the on-again, off-again R with my ex reared its head and I started to push her away to test her commitment. The result was that year 2 of dating was much more rocky than year one had been. I should point out that we were both in our late 20s at this point, so she was also feeling the "ticking of the clock" through all of this. But I still had that 2 year dating courtship requirement in my head.

As the second year drew to a close, after pushing her away, and her alternating between giving me space and pursuing me, things started to smooth out. I started to see that she was committed to me, and I started to warm up to the idea of long-term commitment to her and marrying her.

I should point out, and though my belief system today run counter to this, our sex life was off the charts during all this time. Even during the rocky second year, when we would see each other, we rocked each other's worlds. We were very open to experimentation, very into each other sexually. Even if the rest of our R had hit rocky patches. As the holidays drew near toward the end of year 2, we were in a much better place. Some close friends of ours had also been instrumental in getting us to realize that we had a good thing, and that marriage should be something we considered (separately I might add they "hinted" at this).

The female of our close friend couple was a realtor and started pushing me to buy a house. So I started to look at houses, and made sure my soon-to-be bride was included in the house hunting. And that's when I proposed, right after new year's, just a couple of months shy of our 2 year dating anniversary. She was over the moon, and we started to plan a wedding, and at the same time found a house and started to make plans to buy it, and to close out the leases on our separate places.

We got married that spring, and I was surprised at how much I loved the idea of being married. And then reality hit me. Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex. It was like a switch had been hit. Within 2 months I started wondering if I had made a mistake. And my NGS started to kick in and I started to act hurt and pouty about it. When we did have sex it felt like she was doing me a favor. We fell into an awful pattern of once every other month, that would extend to two months. Into three-four months. I think the first 2-3 years of marriage we averaged once every 6 weeks, and that is probably liberal.

About 3 years in she wanted to get pregnant, went off BC, and for a couple of week it was every other day. And she got pregnant right away. We were thrilled but I also worried that meant the end of the fun. And then 3 months in she lost the baby. It was awful. Worst thing we ever went through, and that includes both of our sitches. After a few months we tried again, and again, she got pregnant right away. And this time she went full term and had our daughter.

The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement. The only time we had any physical/emotional interaction was the 3-4 times a year we had sex, and even then the emotional part was quickly fading.

Then the fall of 2005 the first sitch happened. I've documented much of that in my threads, so I will make this brief, but she reconnected with a guy she knew in Jr High, and started an EA that was quickly heading toward a PA when I discovered it and confronted. She immediately said she wanted to work on the marriage, and we pretty much brushed it under the rug and moved forward.

Things were briefly better. I had reengaged emotionally the sex even picked up a bit for a while. But a year on we were back to a similar sexual cadence, and my disposition was slowly devolving back into what it was before. She tried to find things that might fix it, I was pretty uninterested in any efforts at that point. I figured the rest of our R was pretty good, other than my surliness, and we would just deal with it. She was never going to want it, and she could only bring herself to condescend to do it every 2-3 months. We actually had a couple of spells of over a year!

And then I got a job that was requiring long hours both at the office and at home. At one point I was literally working 100+ hours a week. This caused me to self-isolate. I was in my office or bedroom alone anytime I was home. It started to even affect my relationship with my daughter. And even after I got a new job that was requiring only 40-45 hours a week (for more pay I might add!) I was still unplugged and isolating almost all of the time I was home. WHen I did come out to interact it was to complain about things not being done, and to be snappy and short. And this continued until that fateful day of 12/23/2017. My W and daughter had gone Christmas shopping. I was home alone and the movie Unfaithful came on. And the way the W was acting in the movie got my suspicious because my W was acting similarly. I checked her Facebook Messenger and found the evidence of another EA........

The interesting thing is that over the years, when I would try to talk to her about the sexual problems, the discussion always went the same. "I am broken" she'd say. "I don't know what is wrong with me." "I need therapy." She had a couple of incidents with family members and older men close to the family that she thought caused some of it. But she had no answers, and she never took the time to get into therapy. She had in the first few years of our marriage and the therapist was awful, so she was gun shy about therapy again. The cycle was we'd go weeks with no sex. I would complain. She would say the above. I'd get more angry and resentful. Finally she'd cave and we'd have not very fulfilling sex, and the cycle would start again.

The last time we had sex, a few months before BD 2017, was awful. Afterward I literally felt like a rapist. While I hadn't raped her (she consented) she laid there and made it known through body language that she was not into it at all. She was obviously TRYING to send that message. It made me never want to try again until after our sitch was resolved and things were in a much better place. I never want to feel that again.

Hoch, and others, I hope this helps. SSM are ticking timebombs....BD is coming you just don't know when.

Steve85,

Thanks for sharing. As I reflect on the relationship with my W, I can related to a lot of what you write.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Then I met my W. There was an immediate spark....She found herself single from her latest for just a few months at this point...Within months she was hinting at wanting to get married.

My W exited a long term (7 year) relationship just a month or two before we met, whereas I had dated but no long term relationship in awhile. We quickly had a spark and quickly progressed in our relationship with my W certainly wanting to speed things along.

Originally Posted by Steve85

I am a very conservative, low-risk kind of guy. I had been a Dr. Laura listener for years by that point, and if you know Dr. Laura she advocates a minimum of 2 years dating before marriage. So I had a two year dating requirement in my head.

I proposed to my W 1yr after dating, and we got married 1yr after getting engaged. Perhaps waiting 2 yrs would've fleshed out these issues before a bigger commitment.

Originally Posted by Steve85

I should point out, and though my belief system today run counter to this, our sex life was off the charts during all this time. Even during the rocky second year, when we would see each other, we rocked each other's worlds. We were very open to experimentation, very into each other sexually.
...
We got married that spring, and I was surprised at how much I loved the idea of being married. And then reality hit me. Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex. It was like a switch had been hit. Within 2 months I started wondering if I had made a mistake. And my NGS started to kick in and I started to act hurt and pouty about it. When we did have sex it felt like she was doing me a favor. We fell into an awful pattern of once every other month, that would extend to two months. Into three-four months. I think the first 2-3 years of marriage we averaged once every 6 weeks, and that is probably liberal.
...
The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement. The only time we had any physical/emotional interaction was the 3-4 times a year we had sex, and even then the emotional part was quickly fading.

Our sex life initially was intense and exciting, but reflecting as I have these last 9 months, I recognize things waning and some mild frustration towards the end of even the first year. I wouldn't say I started wondering if it was a mistake after two months, we got along fairly well otherwise without many fights, but the frequency certainly diminished over the years which caused me to be frustrated and irritable at times.

Originally Posted by Steve85

The interesting thing is that over the years, when I would try to talk to her about the sexual problems, the discussion always went the same. "I am broken" she'd say. "I don't know what is wrong with me." "I need therapy." She had a couple of incidents with family members and older men close to the family that she thought caused some of it. But she had no answers, and she never took the time to get into therapy. She had in the first few years of our marriage and the therapist was awful, so she was gun shy about therapy again. The cycle was we'd go weeks with no sex. I would complain. She would say the above. I'd get more angry and resentful. Finally she'd cave and we'd have not very fulfilling sex, and the cycle would start again.

Interesting. I distinctly remember my wife saying "I don't know what is wrong with me." at one point. I should've empathized more and handled that statement better. She also told me "I am broken" after BD.

Originally Posted by Steve85

The last time we had sex, a few months before BD 2017, was awful. Afterward I literally felt like a rapist. While I hadn't raped her (she consented) she laid there and made it known through body language that she was not into it at all. She was obviously TRYING to send that message. It made me never want to try again until after our sitch was resolved and things were in a much better place. I never want to feel that again.

There were several times when we had sex but she was obviously uninspired and uninterested, making me feel unwanted.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Hoch, and others, I hope this helps. SSM are ticking timebombs....BD is coming you just don't know when.

Steve85 - My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? Sometimes I wonder if my W acted so loving and sexually to "ensnare" me (for lack of a better word), and then to turn it off and act as she really wanted to once she was married. But...is it something you (and I) did to cause that, which I can improve upon for the future? I tend to think the lack of the sex life caused me to get frustrated and pull away, but maybe in her mind (and your W's) it was the opposite. In other words...what came first, the chicken or the egg? And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL,

I�ll chime in here and give you my opinion based on research and personal experience. When a woman feels safe, heard and understood her legs open. When she doesn�t her legs close. It�s that simple but men typically fuch it up because they are terrible listeners, horrible at understanding woman and are not congruent with their word which causes the woman to feel unsafe and the legs close. You master those three things to where it becomes natural to you and not an act (fake it until you make it), and you will have all the sex you want. Ain�t a more hornier person alive then a middle age woman lol. She�s just painfully waiting for a man who has it figured out.

LH19,

Originally Posted by LH19

BL,

I�ll chime in here and give you my opinion based on research and personal experience. When a woman feels safe, heard and understood her legs open. When she doesn�t her legs close. It�s that simple but men typically fuch it up because they are terrible listeners, horrible at understanding woman and are not congruent with their word which causes the woman to feel unsafe and the legs close. You master those three things to where it becomes natural to you and not an act (fake it until you make it), and you will have all the sex you want. Ain�t a more hornier person alive then a middle age woman lol. She�s just painfully waiting for a man who has it figured out.

That makes sense and certainly gives me areas to work on but how would you explain the phenomenon Steve85, I, and many men describe whereas we had great sex lives while dating which then quickly falls off shortly after getting married? Is it the men all of a sudden doing something wrong/differently after the wedding, or are the woman just performing in a way to get a man to marry them and then turning it off / reverting to what they ultimately wanted?

Also...in the case of my W (and I assume others) I know for a fact it's not an issue with them and AP/OMs. She's ramped up considerably. Is that just the initial temporary state while the excitement is there or while she tries to reel in another man and ultimately will revert back and cause issues down the road, or was there something inherently wrong with me they're doing better I need to address personally?

Well I�m sure it was many factors but most men get complacent after marriage and they stop courting their Ws like they did while dating.

It�s very primal for a woman to attract a male with sex. This could be what your W is doing.

This is a fascinating conversation and I wanted to add some thoughts from a female perspective. I too was a LD partner and instigated a SSM in my M. And much like all your partners, the beginning days were very hot and heavy. My partner also was/is a NG.

In the beginning, the pursuit factor played a strong role in the initial attraction. Prior to M, both parties worked hard to attract and maintain that alluring je ne sais quoi. But sometime after M, for me after kids, both partners became complacent. The security of the R meant that it was easy to take each other for granted. And as a woman, the obligations of house, babies and work exhausted a lot of my resources.

H found me attractive and was eager to keep things hot. In hindsight, a few factors led to our SSM:
1. He failed to speak my love language
2. There was no more pursuit: he was steady and loving, but I didn�t feel like the hot young thing he was initially attracted to and to relive our hot and heavy days, I needed to be lured back to that mental landscape. He was too easy and available.
3. Sex felt like a chore after taking care of all the other chores in my life. It became one more thing that I needed to �give� to another person.

The remedy was more than just taking me on dates or telling/showing me how much he loved me. The remedy was to inject a little bit of the pursuer/distancer dynamic into the R. It wasn�t enough that he stopped asking it of me, I needed to feel that I was going to lose him. His confidence spiraled and that made it even more unattractive to me. I wanted someone to dominate me, be the strong, manly, knight in shining armor, sweeping me away from the mundane. He leaned on me to be the caretaker of him not only physically, but emotionally, which was a turnoff.

Women approach sexuality from their minds, not their nethers. We require a certain headspace to get into that sexual place.

My story ends differently because H ended up leaving me. And during the waning limbo of our MR, we recaptured some of those early days. But I could have been a WW if I didn�t have so many children to care for during the days of our SSM, so I can see it from both sides.

Being a man only a fool would leave means reclaiming that self-confidence and detachment (in Steve�s sense of the definition he speaks about earlier in this thread). Nothing is more attractive than both parties feeling like they have to work a little for the R. When you have to work a little, or you fear the loss of your partner, you are less likely to give up on your investment.

I also just want to stand up for women in the �ensnaring� commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can�t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don�t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don�t call it ensnaring.

Originally Posted by BL42

Steve85 - My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? Sometimes I wonder if my W acted so loving and sexually to "ensnare" me (for lack of a better word), and then to turn it off and act as she really wanted to once she was married. But...is it something you (and I) did to cause that, which I can improve upon for the future? I tend to think the lack of the sex life caused me to get frustrated and pull away, but maybe in her mind (and your W's) it was the opposite. In other words...what came first, the chicken or the egg? And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL, her and I had that discussion multiple times, the chicken and egg thing. Did get back of desire cause my bag behavior or vice versa. As with all things I think the truth is in the middle. She didn't want to keep up the pre marriage pace and then I started to act poorly. Which exasperated her lack of desire which exasperated my bad behavior. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy

However, I would also bring up things we used to do, and she admitted that she did those things because she wanted to be a cool girlfriend". Which brings me to Sage....

Originally Posted by Sage4

I also just want to stand up for women in the �ensnaring� commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can�t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don�t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don�t call it ensnaring.

I don't think you can say this in totality. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of to suggest that there is a degree of "trying to get him to marry me" that goes on in many cases. It's like the old joke (the original version is crude so I'll clean it up a bit): Why do brides smile on their wedding day? Because they know they never have to give oral sex again.

Maybe ensnare is too harsh a word, but there is often an aspect of a GF being willing to do things, sexually or not, to get married. I know women that were very into their boyfriends hobbies..... Until the I does were done, and then it was "go do your own thing". So it certainly does happen.

Now you make a good point about men owning there side too. LH touched on it but we guys can get lazy in the marriage and stop trying. When the guy feels so comfortable that he'll just let loose with farts around her, maybe his dress and hygiene and grooming gets lax, and he stops romancing her I can see why a wife would not want to sleep with that! So it does go both ways.

But I can only speak for my case...I still dated her, groomed and dressed well, and kept my hygiene up (I'm a bit of a neat freak). But did I behave badly about her not having desire? Yes I did.

Originally Posted by Steve85

The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement.

Steve, this could have been written about me, especially how I handled the rejection of no sex. What made it worse in my situation is how she invalidated my feelings of rejection. I didn't realise it at the time how damaging this sort of behaviour is. Of course, throughout our marriage I did exactly the same thing back to her, invalidate and fix, rinse, repeat, so unhealthy. It's a cruel irony of life that it takes BD for men to wake up to improving themselves to be better husbands but usually it is too little too late. In my situation it looks like the horse has bolted unfortunately, just as I'm starting to 'get it'.

Originally Posted by OnlyBent

Originally Posted by Steve85

The sex issues continued though, we never had sex once during the pregnancy, and for about 4 months after. But it never really returned and now we were in a "once every 4 months" routine. This went on for 2 years, with me becoming increasingly resentful, and angry. My mood at home was often terrible. And I was not a pleasant person to be around. This wasn't 100% of the time, and we still had some good times in there, but there was no connection. No emotional spark. I had pulled back all non-sexual affection and emotional engagement.

Steve, this could have been written about me, especially how I handled the rejection of no sex. What made it worse in my situation is how she invalidated my feelings of rejection. I didn't realise it at the time how damaging this sort of behaviour is. Of course, throughout our marriage I did exactly the same thing back to her, invalidate and fix, rinse, repeat, so unhealthy. It's a cruel irony of life that it takes BD for men to wake up to improving themselves to be better husbands but usually it is too little too late. In my situation it looks like the horse has bolted unfortunately, just as I'm starting to 'get it'.

So Bent who wins in the long run you or your W? 97% of men act like you did in your marriage so odds are the a$$ clown she�s dating will act the same way. But if you take what you learn into your next relationship then you will be the winner. Does it $uck it had to come to this for you to learn? Absolutely. Well let me tell you something you already know, the world ain�t all sunshine and rainbows.

Steve,

Your update on how things change was brilliant.

Originally Posted by Sage4

I also just want to stand up for women in the �ensnaring� commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can�t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don�t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don�t call it ensnaring.

Unfortunately Sage, statistically personality disorders are on the up.. It could just be that records / research etc wasnt what it is today in past decades - but there has never been so much documentation / evidence / resrearch into personality disorders.

There is also some debate / evidence that child hood truama such as parents seperating is a contributing factor to these disorders.. Take into accout how many more people divorce / seperate now, compared to the 70s and 80s, you can see why there are a so many messed up people.

And from my persepective, WW was on the pill, but managed to get pregnant 3 months into our relationship, claiming she "must have forgot to take it". I was already seeing the red flags ( i'll be honest when i say, i did ignore them ) - but would i have been with her after 6 months if she hadn't of falled pregnant - No!

So i would say there is ensnaring - Wolfmans Sitch is a scary example of this !

Originally Posted by Steve85

Maybe ensnare is too harsh a word, but there is often an aspect of a GF being willing to do things, sexually or not, to get married. I know women that were very into their boyfriends hobbies..... Until the I does were done, and then it was "go do your own thing". So it certainly does happen.

Like the sex, the whole "change to impress" things is oh so common. Until our first child was born, my WW shared all my hobbies. Especially fast cars. Once D1 was born, she showed total disrespect for my cars, calling them "chavy".. Yet there were photos of her on our fireplace posing next to them. I don't believe she ever had an interest in cars, but for that 11 month period, she "pretented" to be really into them - even helping my swap an engine out when 3 months pregnant.

It is these posts that the LBS needs to read to realise they are not alone, but also to learn - then not make then same mistakes next time around..

Sage4,

I appreciate weighing in from the female perspective. It was an interesting read, especially the need for the pursuer/distancer dynamic in addition to just regular dates. I'll have to consider love languages and pursuit in my future relationship. I wonder though, what made sex feel like a "one more chore" as opposed to something you desired? Was it simply the pursuit dynamic?

Originally Posted by Sage4

I also just want to stand up for women in the �ensnaring� commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can�t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don�t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don�t call it ensnaring.

I hesitated to use the word "ensnare", assuming it could be controversial, hence the "for lack of a better word" comment. I don't think W is a sociopath, though I do wonder if her finding out as a teenager her mom was having an affair and divorcing her dad and the resulting issues/counseling/ADs is rearing its ugly head in my sitch. I'm also not trying to cop opt - just trying to understand the whole situation more and learn from it - but it does seem like there are plenty of men, including Steve, LH, and MrBrside saying sex fell off dramatically after marriage. Why the change so quickly if there wasn't a "while we're dating I'll be interested, but now that I'm married I don't have to anymore" factor?

Steve85,

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by BL42

Steve85 - My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? Sometimes I wonder if my W acted so loving and sexually to "ensnare" me (for lack of a better word), and then to turn it off and act as she really wanted to once she was married. But...is it something you (and I) did to cause that, which I can improve upon for the future? I tend to think the lack of the sex life caused me to get frustrated and pull away, but maybe in her mind (and your W's) it was the opposite. In other words...what came first, the chicken or the egg? And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL, her and I had that discussion multiple times, the chicken and egg thing. Did get back of desire cause my bag behavior or vice versa. As with all things I think the truth is in the middle. She didn't want to keep up the pre marriage pace and then I started to act poorly. Which exasperated her lack of desire which exasperated my bad behavior. Kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy

However, I would also bring up things we used to do, and she admitted that she did those things because she wanted to be a cool girlfriend". Which brings me to Sage....

You're probably right that the truth is in the middle. I did broach the topic at times with W but we never really had a good, genuine conversation about it - it would get brushed under the table with a "don't analyze it" or whatever.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Originally Posted by Sage4

I also just want to stand up for women in the �ensnaring� commentary.

Unless she is a sociopath, or on the spectrum of a serious personality disorder, most women do not approach M with the intent of ensnaring. That sounds to me like a cop-out for men who can�t own their contribution to the SSM or the M. And you don�t hear women suggesting that men ensnared them, so it also feels very sexist to me. Do women make certain choices based up on their perceived future stability? Absolutely. But I would argue men do the same thing and yet we don�t call it ensnaring.

I don't think you can say this in totality. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence of to suggest that there is a degree of "trying to get him to marry me" that goes on in many cases. It's like the old joke (the original version is crude so I'll clean it up a bit): Why do brides smile on their wedding day? Because they know they never have to give oral sex again.

Maybe ensnare is too harsh a word, but there is often an aspect of a GF being willing to do things, sexually or not, to get married. I know women that were very into their boyfriends hobbies..... Until the I does were done, and then it was "go do your own thing". So it certainly does happen.

Now you make a good point about men owning there side too. LH touched on it but we guys can get lazy in the marriage and stop trying. When the guy feels so comfortable that he'll just let loose with farts around her, maybe his dress and hygiene and grooming gets lax, and he stops romancing her I can see why a wife would not want to sleep with that! So it does go both ways.

But I can only speak for my case...I still dated her, groomed and dressed well, and kept my hygiene up (I'm a bit of a neat freak). But did I behave badly about her not having desire? Yes I did.

I agree there's something here. Again, I hesitated to sure the word ensnare because it had the potential to be controversial but whatever word there does seem to be a quick fall-off in many cases which makes it seem like a bit of bait-and-switch.

LH19,

Originally Posted by LH19

Originally Posted by OnlyBent

Steve, this could have been written about me, especially how I handled the rejection of no sex. What made it worse in my situation is how she invalidated my feelings of rejection. I didn't realise it at the time how damaging this sort of behaviour is. Of course, throughout our marriage I did exactly the same thing back to her, invalidate and fix, rinse, repeat, so unhealthy. It's a cruel irony of life that it takes BD for men to wake up to improving themselves to be better husbands but usually it is too little too late. In my situation it looks like the horse has bolted unfortunately, just as I'm starting to 'get it'.

So Bent who wins in the long run you or your W? 97% of men act like you did in your marriage so odds are the a$$ clown she�s dating will act the same way. But if you take what you learn into your next relationship then you will be the winner. Does it $uck it had to come to this for you to learn? Absolutely. Well let me tell you something you already know, the world ain�t all sunshine and rainbows.

So LH, this is probably a pointless question but and maybe you'll tap my knuckles with the ruler, but do you think my W (and OnlyBent's) are turning things on for their AP/OM only to have the same issue a year or two or three down the road? Or, is it something wrong with us personally and the OM will be better? I know I'm not supposed to detach and care about that but the question is in the back of my mind wondering if it's me or W.

MrBrside,

Originally Posted by MrBrside

There is also some debate / evidence that child hood truama such as parents seperating is a contributing factor to these disorders.. Take into accout how many more people divorce / seperate now, compared to the 70s and 80s, you can see why there are a so many messed up people.

When my W was 12 she found out her mom was having an affair and going to divorce her dad. That and the resulting divorce impact caused her much anxiety and depression and she was in counseling and on ADs for two decades before we met. A couple people warned my mom about her but I guess I was in love and she swore to me she would stick it out and never wanted to be like her mother. I can't help but feel she couldn't escape her past/modeling, and her upbringing is rearing its head in my sitch.

Originally Posted by MrBrside

It is these posts that the LBS needs to read to realise they are not alone, but also to learn - then not make then same mistakes next time around..

Agreed. Definitely a lot to learn from these post - this forum has been very helpful for me and so many others I'm sure.

Originally Posted by BL42

When my W was 12 she found out her mom was having an affair and going to divorce her dad. That and the resulting divorce impact caused her much anxiety and depression and she was in counseling and on ADs for two decades before we met. A couple people warned my mom about her but I guess I was in love and she swore to me she would stick it out and never wanted to be like her mother. I can't help but feel she couldn't escape her past/modeling, and her upbringing is rearing its head in my sitch.

My WW's dad had an affair and left when she was 4. She frequently told me her earliest childhood memory was sitting at the top of the stairs crying, as she watched her mum beg the father not to leave. She has a very poor / non existant relationship with her father, who she went through life blaming for anthing and everything. She caried a lot of resentment over this - Which is why i found it so strange that she started to message / flirt with other men.

Re the sex thing. As a couple we made love every single day, multiple times from the day i moved in until the night before our first child was born - From memory, there were 2 days in that whole 12 month period when we didnt - as i was on a stag do and away for 2 days. Thats it. From the day our first daughter was born, she has no interest in me again - like maybe once a month.

There could be many reasons for this, but i do believe ( ive mentioned here before ) that personality disorders come into play ( along with a lot of other factors Steve has mentioned ) - My WW used to pickup and drop friends like hot coals.. As soon as D1 was born, i didnt get a look in - i was last years news.. Once D2 was born, D1 was no longer the favourite. D3 was then the focus... Now D2 is the apple of her eye according to the D1, who really doesnt have a good relationship with her mother. This is a trait of NPD.

Quote

Agreed. Definitely a lot to learn from these post - this forum has been very helpful for me and so many others I'm sure.

Unfortunetly, you wont find the things you read / learn here in any education system. Yet if you learn and soak up the knowlege, most LBS will realise they were pretty clueless when it came to their relationship.. Hence why learning and changing is so important for either reconsiling or your next relationship - something crazy like 95% of affairs fail within 5 years. I think i read that if look look at the numbers of affairs and chances of making it past 5 years, you have a higher chance of winning the lottery - why do they fail ? i think a big part has to do with bother WW / OM / OW not working on themselves and history repeats..

Originally Posted by BL42

So LH, this is probably a pointless question but and maybe you'll tap my knuckles with the ruler, but do you think my W (and OnlyBent's) are turning things on for their AP/OM only to have the same issue a year or two or three down the road? Or, is it something wrong with us personally and the OM will be better? I know I'm not supposed to detach and care about that but the question is in the back of my mind wondering if it's me or W.

1) - Why care ? Life now for you - set a goal for that year or two and work to making it happen.
2) - Most affairs do not last two or three years... fact.. Circumstances can impact on this such as moving in together etc ( ie if they only see each other once a week and dont live together there is probably less friction / arguments )
3) - I know a lot of people who have had affairs. I only know of 2 couples who have lasted over 5 years. my WW father is still with the lady he left WW mum for, BUT its not a stable happy relationship - both have had multiple affairs.

But at the end of the day - focus on you - not where she will be in 3 weeks, 6 months, 1 year or 5 years.

Originally Posted by BL42

So LH, this is probably a pointless question but and maybe you'll tap my knuckles with the ruler, but do you think my W (and OnlyBent's) are turning things on for their AP/OM only to have the same issue a year or two or three down the road? Or, is it something wrong with us personally and the OM will be better? I know I'm not supposed to detach and care about that but the question is in the back of my mind wondering if it's me or W.

So first I�d like to say my sex life never dropped off in my marriage in fact got better after Fifty Shades of Grey came out (thanks dude) lol. What I am saying is odds are the other man will not be better and she will be back in the same place thinking something is missing in her life that is preventing her from being happy. Is it possible she finds Mr. wonderful that fills her physically, emotionally and sexually. Sure. But most men are clueless when it comes to making women happy.Heck most women don�t even know what makes them happy. How many times have you heard a girl say �I just want a nice guy� then they get a nice guy and dump him and say �he was too nice�. WTF does that even mean? Here is what I think. In every long term relationship at some point one is gonna want out. Some go through with it. Some don�t. You married someone who did. Was preventable? Maybe. Does it matter now? Nope. The real question is what did you learn from it?

First, I would like to thank steve85 for letting us hijack your thread. Let us know if we should take this discussion back to BL42 thread.

Also I would like to thank Sage for sharing the female perspective.

Originally Posted by Sage4

This is a fascinating conversation and I wanted to add some thoughts from a female perspective.....I didn�t feel like the hot young thing he was initially attracted to and to relive our hot and heavy days, I needed to be lured back to that mental landscape. He was too easy and available.
3. Sex felt like a chore ....The remedy was to inject a little bit of the pursuer/distancer dynamic into the R. It wasn�t enough that he stopped asking it of me, I needed to feel that I was going to lose him. His confidence spiraled and that made it even more unattractive to me. I wanted someone to dominate me, be the strong, manly, knight in shining armor, sweeping me away from the mundane. He leaned on me to be the caretaker of him not only physically, but emotionally, which was a turnoff.
Women approach sexuality from their minds, not their nethers. We require a certain headspace to get into that sexual place.

Originally Posted by BL42

My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? .... And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL42, Others have given you good insight. Take a look at what I put in bold from Sage4. Use that as the foundation for your new understanding. Turning a woman on is easy. It is about how she FEELS in your presence. It is about SURPRISE and EXCITEMENT. There is a balance between attraction and seduction.

Look here for counter-intuitive ways to attract:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Read as much as you can about every area that you would like to improve. Decide what beliefs and behaviors are no longer working for you and which new ones you would like to have. Completely reinvent yourself if you want.

R2C, hijack away!

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

First, I would like to thank steve85 for letting us hijack your thread. Let us know if we should take this discussion back to BL42 thread.

Also I would like to thank Sage for sharing the female perspective.

Originally Posted by Sage4

This is a fascinating conversation and I wanted to add some thoughts from a female perspective.....I didn�t feel like the hot young thing he was initially attracted to and to relive our hot and heavy days, I needed to be lured back to that mental landscape. He was too easy and available.
3. Sex felt like a chore ....The remedy was to inject a little bit of the pursuer/distancer dynamic into the R. It wasn�t enough that he stopped asking it of me, I needed to feel that I was going to lose him. His confidence spiraled and that made it even more unattractive to me. I wanted someone to dominate me, be the strong, manly, knight in shining armor, sweeping me away from the mundane. He leaned on me to be the caretaker of him not only physically, but emotionally, which was a turnoff.
Women approach sexuality from their minds, not their nethers. We require a certain headspace to get into that sexual place.

Originally Posted by BL42

My question is what do you think caused the drop off in sex initially? Why do you think your sex life was "off the charts" while dating to "Almost immediately she started to lose her interest in sex"? .... And how to I improve myself and/or see the red flags for next time?

BL42, Others have given you good insight. Take a look at what I put in bold from Sage4. Use that as the foundation for your new understanding. Turning a woman on is easy. It is about how she FEELS in your presence. It is about SURPRISE and EXCITEMENT. There is a balance between attraction and seduction.

Look here for counter-intuitive ways to attract:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Read as much as you can about every area that you would like to improve. Decide what beliefs and behaviors are no longer working for you and which new ones you would like to have. Completely reinvent yourself if you want.

R2C, obviously the dynamics involved in a SSM are very complex. So much so that entire books are written about the subject!

But I think the fundamentals are found in a quote that I have learned to be so true:

"Women marry a man hoping he'll change. Men marry a woman hoping she won't."

There in lies the rub. Women tolerate a lot from men, even during dating. Thinking, "once we are married he won't spend so much time hunting, going out with the guys, being a momma's boy, etc." Men think their GF is perfect the way she is, so when after the wedding suddenly the 3-5 times a week having sex turns into 1 or 2 times (or less), and that she is now insisting he not spend so much time hunting, going out with the guys, and being a momma's boy, he feels suckered.

She went into the marriage expecting that there would changes after marriage, he goes in thinking everything will be exactly like it was before. That gets the ball rolling on the resentment, frustration, and malaise. She sits at home wishing he were different. He goes out to escape wishing things hadn't changed. And the ball just rolls further down hill from there.

I've watched this dynamic play out many times. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes it takes mere months or weeks. The fact is that each went into the marriage expecting different things. And then the couple thinks, individually, "once we have kids then things will smooth out!" FAMOUS LAST WORDS.......................

Originally Posted by Steve85

But I think the fundamentals are found in a quote that I have learned to be so true:

"Women marry a man hoping he'll change. Men marry a woman hoping she won't."

There in lies the rub. Women tolerate a lot from men, even during dating. Thinking, "once we are married he won't spend so much time hunting, going out with the guys, being a momma's boy, etc." Men think their GF is perfect the way she is, so when after the wedding suddenly the 3-5 times a week having sex turns into 1 or 2 times (or less), and that she is now insisting he not spend so much time hunting, going out with the guys, and being a momma's boy, he feels suckered.

She went into the marriage expecting that there would changes after marriage, he goes in thinking everything will be exactly like it was before. That gets the ball rolling on the resentment, frustration, and malaise. She sits at home wishing he were different. He goes out to escape wishing things hadn't changed. And the ball just rolls further down hill from there.

I've watched this dynamic play out many times. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes it takes mere months or weeks. The fact is that each went into the marriage expecting different things. And then the couple thinks, individually, "once we have kids then things will smooth out!" FAMOUS LAST WORDS.......................

Excellent write up Steve..

This and LH19s write up on resentment should be given to every guy on their 18th Birthday !

"Happy Birthday Son - Heres your birthday card - oh and read this as well"

Unfortunetly, many don't click in until its too late - many others go through life in a rubbish relationship.

Originally Posted by MrBrside

Originally Posted by Steve85

But I think the fundamentals are found in a quote that I have learned to be so true:

"Women marry a man hoping he'll change. Men marry a woman hoping she won't."

There in lies the rub. Women tolerate a lot from men, even during dating. Thinking, "once we are married he won't spend so much time hunting, going out with the guys, being a momma's boy, etc." Men think their GF is perfect the way she is, so when after the wedding suddenly the 3-5 times a week having sex turns into 1 or 2 times (or less), and that she is now insisting he not spend so much time hunting, going out with the guys, and being a momma's boy, he feels suckered.

She went into the marriage expecting that there would changes after marriage, he goes in thinking everything will be exactly like it was before. That gets the ball rolling on the resentment, frustration, and malaise. She sits at home wishing he were different. He goes out to escape wishing things hadn't changed. And the ball just rolls further down hill from there.

I've watched this dynamic play out many times. Sometimes it takes years. Sometimes it takes mere months or weeks. The fact is that each went into the marriage expecting different things. And then the couple thinks, individually, "once we have kids then things will smooth out!" FAMOUS LAST WORDS.......................

Excellent write up Steve..

This and LH19s write up on resentment should be given to every guy on their 18th Birthday !

"Happy Birthday Son - Heres your birthday card - oh and read this as well"

Unfortunetly, many don't click in until its too late - many others go through life in a rubbish relationship.

It is interesting how little information is shared with a newly minted adulted headed into the world of adult relationships! Obviously, some parents are better about this than others, but I certainly never received good advice about what to expect as relationships move from casual dating into potential marital partners. Certainly would help if there were life-skills classes that could potentially teach these kinds of things. (I am concerned about the direction those classes would go in though with the current slant of public schooling!) But in general we turn high school and college graduates out into the world to figure things out for themselves. Some can handle it, most cannot.

Originally Posted by Steve85

I kill deer.

I am headed out to the woods to chase deer with pointed sticks. Looking for a record class buck. Passing on the younger guys. The city bucks are all out today.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

I kill deer.

I am headed out to the woods to chase deer with pointed sticks. Looking for a record class buck. Passing on the younger guys. The city bucks are all out today.

Wish I could share the picture, but I finally harvested a monster buck during bow season this year!

Originally Posted by Steve85

Wish I could share the picture,

You can....check your email.....

R2C....I will forward through the Alt....

Originally Posted by Steve85

Wish I could share the picture, but I finally harvested a monster buck during bow season this year!

I had my encounter with my monster buck. Underestimated the yardage and shot under. He is a little wiser now. Passed on a little buck at 10 yards. He is wiser as well. Best part was just being out in the woods in the moment.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by Steve85

Wish I could share the picture, but I finally harvested a monster buck during bow season this year!

I had my encounter with my monster buck. Underestimated the yardage and shot under. He is a little wiser now. Passed on a little buck at 10 yards. He is wiser as well. Best part was just being out in the woods in the moment.

Agreed!!

Today is the 3 year anniversary of BD. Wow, I cannot believe it has been 3 years. And I cannot believe how far things have come.

I continue to see some recurring themes on this board. Things like "IHS doesn't work". And "Most people end up D'd." Etc.

The problem is not the situation or the final outcome. It is how well and early you start to DB. I have told many of you that I remembered DBing on 12/26. I spent two days (remember, BD happened late in the day on the 23rd) making the classic mistakes of begging, moping, being sad, etc. I woke up the day after Christmas three years ago and started to research DBing methods again. I had been through another sitch 12 years earlier and that is where I was introduced to MWD. I began to find other experts that espoused similar tactics. Let her go. Drop the rope. Back off and give time and space. Detach. Make positive changes for me. Stop trying to save the MR. Go out and get a life.

So that day (the 26th) I started DBing. It wasn't perfect at first. I slipped up and broke some rules along the way, but with detachment as my #1 goal, about 6 week in I started to not emotionally react to any of the things she did and said. (The % of times I reacted went from greater than 50% to close to 0% 6 weeks in). Inside there was still turmoil, but externally I was becoming a rock! And the benefits were nearly immediate. When I stopped reacting like my world was ending I could see her really having second thoughts about her determination to get a D. Eventually even my insides remained as even as the outside!

So I am proof that IHS can work. I am proof that not everyone ends up D'd. I've also learned through my sitch and others that the earlier you start, and the faster you get proficient at DBing, the better chance of saving your marriage you have! Again, IHS, or physically separated. EA, PA or no A. The circumstances of your sitch are less important than the fact that you need to start DBing as soon as possible, and to work on getting good at it as quickly as possible.

And I cannot emphasize the importance of GAL enough. When I got really good at GAL is when I really started to detach. Anyone struggling reading this, more than likely your struggles are from not GAL well enough! So go out and get busy.

Originally Posted by Steve85

I started to not emotionally react to any of the things she did and said. Inside there was still turmoil, but externally I was becoming a rock! And the benefits were nearly immediate. When I stopped reacting like my world was ending I could see her really having second thoughts about her determination to get a D. Eventually even my insides remained as even as the outside!

This is such an important thing to understand, especially for the men.

Say this to yourself over and over:
"The first one to emotionally react, loses"

This is universal. It a test of social status. High status people have their emotions under control. It is a desirable trait.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Today is the 3 year anniversary of BD. Wow, I cannot believe it has been 3 years. And I cannot believe how far things have come.

I continue to see some recurring themes on this board. Things like "IHS doesn't work". And "Most people end up D'd." Etc.

The problem is not the situation or the final outcome. It is how well and early you start to DB. I have told many of you that I remembered DBing on 12/26. I spent two days (remember, BD happened late in the day on the 23rd) making the classic mistakes of begging, moping, being sad, etc. I woke up the day after Christmas three years ago and started to research DBing methods again. I had been through another sitch 12 years earlier and that is where I was introduced to MWD. I began to find other experts that espoused similar tactics. Let her go. Drop the rope. Back off and give time and space. Detach. Make positive changes for me. Stop trying to save the MR. Go out and get a life.

So that day (the 26th) I started DBing. It wasn't perfect at first. I slipped up and broke some rules along the way, but with detachment as my #1 goal, about 6 week in I started to not emotionally react to any of the things she did and said. (The % of times I reacted went from greater than 50% to close to 0% 6 weeks in). Inside there was still turmoil, but externally I was becoming a rock! And the benefits were nearly immediate. When I stopped reacting like my world was ending I could see her really having second thoughts about her determination to get a D. Eventually even my insides remained as even as the outside!

So I am proof that IHS can work. I am proof that not everyone ends up D'd. I've also learned through my sitch and others that the earlier you start, and the faster you get proficient at DBing, the better chance of saving your marriage you have! Again, IHS, or physically separated. EA, PA or no A. The circumstances of your sitch are less important than the fact that you need to start DBing as soon as possible, and to work on getting good at it as quickly as possible.

And I cannot emphasize the importance of GAL enough. When I got really good at GAL is when I really started to detach. Anyone struggling reading this, more than likely your struggles are from not GAL well enough! So go out and get busy.

Im glad things are going well for you, Steve. Please do NOT generalize your situation to others. And no, you are not proof that IHS works. You are proof that it worked for you and your sitch. Many posters have suffered in different ways than you. If I recall your W had a few EAs? And they were mostly with men online she gamed with? How can you generalize that to the devastation others have dealt with? She did not have full blown romantic and sexual relationships with other men that lasted a long time. And much, much worse. Please stop comparing yourself to others here because you cannot.

You spend many hours a day posting here and advising others. That is very generous of you! It�s is appreciated by all. It however, does not make you an expert. You talk (type) in a way that seems you are a self proclaimed expert because you have put so much time in. I find this concerning because when people come here they are vulnerable and might trust whatever you tell them. This site goes unregulated because the moderators have a limited role. I honestly believe you need to think more before you make these generalizations, compare others to your sitch and dish out advice. It could be harmful to people that don�t know better.

Blu

Steve I know you mean well but Blue�s right and you know I have taken issue with your comments in the past that reconciliation is harder then divorce. You�ve never had to read a note from your child that all they want is their parents to get back together.

IHS while living someone who has a real affair partner cannot be over looked and discounted. It makes it almost impossible to detach which pushes the WW further a way. No one knows for sure but if your W had a real AP and a job it might have ended differently for you. I posted a little while ago you may want to look back and see how long it took you to embrace DB and detach.

Lastly I think Thorton and Lim would tell you to knock on wood because they came back to the board stating how DB saved their marriage only get bomb dropped again.

Originally Posted by BluWave

Originally Posted by Steve85

Today is the 3 year anniversary of BD. Wow, I cannot believe it has been 3 years. And I cannot believe how far things have come.

I continue to see some recurring themes on this board. Things like "IHS doesn't work". And "Most people end up D'd." Etc.

The problem is not the situation or the final outcome. It is how well and early you start to DB. I have told many of you that I remembered DBing on 12/26. I spent two days (remember, BD happened late in the day on the 23rd) making the classic mistakes of begging, moping, being sad, etc. I woke up the day after Christmas three years ago and started to research DBing methods again. I had been through another sitch 12 years earlier and that is where I was introduced to MWD. I began to find other experts that espoused similar tactics. Let her go. Drop the rope. Back off and give time and space. Detach. Make positive changes for me. Stop trying to save the MR. Go out and get a life.

So that day (the 26th) I started DBing. It wasn't perfect at first. I slipped up and broke some rules along the way, but with detachment as my #1 goal, about 6 week in I started to not emotionally react to any of the things she did and said. (The % of times I reacted went from greater than 50% to close to 0% 6 weeks in). Inside there was still turmoil, but externally I was becoming a rock! And the benefits were nearly immediate. When I stopped reacting like my world was ending I could see her really having second thoughts about her determination to get a D. Eventually even my insides remained as even as the outside!

So I am proof that IHS can work. I am proof that not everyone ends up D'd. I've also learned through my sitch and others that the earlier you start, and the faster you get proficient at DBing, the better chance of saving your marriage you have! Again, IHS, or physically separated. EA, PA or no A. The circumstances of your sitch are less important than the fact that you need to start DBing as soon as possible, and to work on getting good at it as quickly as possible.

And I cannot emphasize the importance of GAL enough. When I got really good at GAL is when I really started to detach. Anyone struggling reading this, more than likely your struggles are from not GAL well enough! So go out and get busy.

Im glad things are going well for you, Steve. Please do NOT generalize your situation to others. And no, you are not proof that IHS works. You are proof that it worked for you and your sitch. Many posters have suffered in different ways than you. If I recall your W had a few EAs? And they were mostly with men online she gamed with? How can you generalize that to the devastation others have dealt with? She did not have full blown romantic and sexual relationships with other men that lasted a long time. And much, much worse. Please stop comparing yourself to others here because you cannot.

You spend many hours a day posting here and advising others. That is very generous of you! It�s is appreciated by all. It however, does not make you an expert. You talk (type) in a way that seems you are a self proclaimed expert because you have put so much time in. I find this concerning because when people come here they are vulnerable and might trust whatever you tell them. This site goes unregulated because the moderators have a limited role. I honestly believe you need to think more before you make these generalizations, compare others to your sitch and dish out advice. It could be harmful to people that don�t know better.

Blu

Thanks for your perspective, Blu. I understand you feel strongly, and understand why. You make good points to be considerd. Merry Christmas to you and your family!

Originally Posted by LH19

Steve I know you mean well but Blue�s right and you know I have taken issue with your comments in the past that reconciliation is harder then divorce. You�ve never had to read a note from your child that all they want is their parents to get back together.

IHS while living someone who has a real affair partner cannot be over looked and discounted. It makes it almost impossible to detach which pushes the WW further a way. No one knows for sure but if your W had a real AP and a job it might have ended differently for you. I posted a little while ago you may want to look back and see how long it took you to embrace DB and detach.

Lastly I think Thorton and Lim would tell you to knock on wood because they came back to the board stating how DB saved their marriage only get bomb dropped again.

LH, been a while since that exchange. I believe I said it was more difficult to R than D in certain ways. But it really isn't a contest. Both are extremely difficult, and have their own unique challenges. You rightly pointed out that I didn't know how D felt personally because I've never been through, which I agreed was a fair point.

However, this isn't the first time you've suggested that I 'becareful' because it could happen again. I can assure you if it does the next time won't be from lack of trying on my part! The sad part to me is that I almost detect a tinge of hoping it does on your part. Regardless, I wish nothing but the best for you in the furture. I'll continue to pray for you as I do many in this forum.

Steve,

I would never wish what I went through on anyone.

My suggestions to you to be careful were on grandiose statements you make. That�s all.

Happy holidays to you and your family!

BTW, while I'm on the subject of the three year anniversary. It is also surprising to me how raw the feelings of three years ago still are. One of the things I've learned through all of this is empathy. Please know everyone reading this know that I can empathize so much with you and what you're going through. The pain is so difficult it is to the point of unbearable. Please know that no matter what happens with your marriage that it will get better. I don't want to speak for LH, but I think he'd agree with me on that much!

We all arrive here in pain. Pain is pain. I don't believe there is anyway any of us can compare the levels relative to others. I can only relate it relative to other experiences in my life.

For me, the bomb drop was the trigger to help release all of my unexpressed pain from the past. The pain from the death of each of my dogs. My brother passing away about 30 years ago. Those are the big ones.

"Marley and me" was another trigger. The pain and sadness I felt was in the same range. Just because it was a movie doesn't mean the pain I felt was not real. Can we all relate to that pain? Can we empathize?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

We all arrive here in pain. Pain is pain. I don't believe there is anyway any of us can compare the levels relative to others. I can only relate it relative to other experiences in my life.

For me, the bomb drop was the trigger to help release all of my unexpressed pain from the past. The pain from the death of each of my dogs. My brother passing away about 30 years ago. Those are the big ones.

"Marley and me" was another trigger. The pain and sadness I felt was in the same range. Just because it was a movie doesn't mean the pain I felt was not real. Can we all relate to that pain? Can we empathize?

Good point. In 2010 we lost three dogs, including a 2 year old that woke up and had a seizure one morning and died. That was my daughter's bday present 2 years prior. I've been through it multiple times and it never gets easier. We have a 10 year old giant breed now. Doing good for her age but I'm dreading the inevitable.

I think the combination of the anniversary of BD and Christmas has me reflecting quite a bit. I've been very open about my difficult relationship with my D17. In many ways my pre-BD behavior affected her as much, if not more, than my W. My 180s that I worked so hard to implement and cement took longer for her to embrace and trust than my W took. As recently as a year and a half ago she still had a lot of bitterness and resentment built up towards me. 2 years ago my W arranged some family counseling for us. While she was recommited to the MR, we both could tell my D was still struggling with letting go of the old me, and embracing the new. My D was very resistant to the counseling, and we didn't go for long, but the C did a good job of drawing her out a bit, and we both had a couple of vulnerable moments.

Slowly she started to trust that I had changed for the better, and that it wasn't a temporary change. Over the last year especially our relationship has become much better. It hit me yesterday how far it had come as I had some errands to run. She came downstairs as I was finishing getting ready and made it clear she wanted to go with me. We went and had a good time. Last night I was thinking about that and how two years ago that would not have occurred.

And I realized that DBing was a big part of that. One of the things I learned through my sitch was that listening and validating is as important in other relationships as it is in a MR. I've shared how it has served me well at work and with friendships. And it has had an impact with my R with my daughter. And while she required a long period of consistency in my changes, I believe the most profound change has been listening to her and understanding her viewpoint. Even if I don't agree with it.

Anyway, just more reflection about this three year journey. I wish so much I had been a better husband and father all along, but I'm thankful to God for the opportunity I was given to become better in those areas. I'm far from perfect which is why I keep my nose to the grindstone and keep working at it.

Also, Merry Christmas to all my fellow posters. I know some of your are suffering through a tough holiday season. I know my holidays in 2017 were extremely difficult. Just hang in there, try to enjoy them as much as you can, better days are ahead.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Also, Merry Christmas to all my fellow posters. I know some of your are suffering through a tough holiday season. I know my holidays in 2017 were extremely difficult. Just hang in there, try to enjoy them as much as you can, better days are ahead.

Thank you Steve85. It's been a horrible year for me. Hope next year is better for everyone.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Anyway, just more reflection about this three year journey. I wish so much I had been a better husband and father all along, but I'm thankful to God for the opportunity I was given to become better in those areas. I'm far from perfect which is why I keep my nose to the grindstone and keep working at it.

I am inspired by this post Steve85 and think this is something I can work on

@Steve - The big question on my mind this morning--what prompted the name change?! (:

This is a little more conspicuous.....in case anyone I know ever finds their way here.

That should read more inconspicuous! LOL I was between less conspicuous and more inconspicuous and ended up with a combination of the two.

I should also point out that I had been contemplating this step for a while.

I can imagine you spent many excruciating days contemplating changing 85 to LW. 100% certain you can�t be identified now.

Baaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa.

Originally Posted by LH19

I can imagine you spent many excruciating days contemplating changing 85 to LW. 100% certain you can�t be identified now.

Baaaaaahaaaaaaaaaa.

HAHA. Actually, it is a subtle change but one that makes a big difference. I'd explain it but then that would defeat the purpose! (LW are not my initials, btw.)

85 was the year you graduated.

LW means LH19 wannabe lol

Originally Posted by LH19

85 was the year you graduated.

LW means LH19 wannabe lol

85 was more significant of a number than that. I am not THAT old! LOL

And sure, let's go with that for LW!

Originally Posted by SteveLW

85 was more significant of a number than that. I am not THAT old! LOL

Are you calling ME old!

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by SteveLW

85 was more significant of a number than that. I am not THAT old! LOL

Are you calling ME old!

No....just older than me.

Has something changed that makes you feel the need to be less conspicuous L-Dub?

Steve,

This is weird.

Over

Originally Posted by OnlyBent

Has something changed that makes you feel the need to be less conspicuous L-Dub?

Nope. Just wanted to make sure that if anyone I knew ever found this site that it would be less obvious who I was. I try to share my experiences vaguely, but there are couple of dozen people closest to me that might would be able to put it together, especially related to that number.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Steve,

This is weird.

Over

ovr, I hear you saying that you feel this is name change is weird.

Soooooo if they see SteveLW they will be like I have no idea who this person is. But if they see Steve85 they will be like this is totally Steve's life?

This is like when Tom H went to Tom I. I thought is was a completely different person lol.

Originally Posted by SteveLW

I am not THAT old!

I am

Actually even older!

Originally Posted by LH19

Soooooo if they see SteveLW they will be like I have no idea who this person is. But if they see Steve85 they will be like this is totally Steve's life?

This is like when Tom H went to Tom I. I thought is was a completely different person lol.

LOL LH. I know it doesn't seem like much, but trust me on this one!

ok. Steve85 I mean SteveLW you have earned the benefit of the doubt with your services here.

SteveLW, I just wanted to drop by to say that you've been posting some great stuff. Keep it up!

Originally Posted by sandi2

SteveLW, I just wanted to drop by to say that you've been posting some great stuff. Keep it up!

Thanks sandi, and I love that you are more present on the board! I've learned so much from your posts, as most LBHs have.

I like 58evets

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I like 58evets

I should have.

Watched The Break-up last night. It is a 2006 movies starring Vince Vaughn and Jennifer Aniston. They are a couple (not married) sharing a condo in Chicago. They have a big blow up and break up, but continue with an IHS. I had watched some college basketball earlier so I thought I would go ahead and watch this movie since I was interested in the subject matter.

I thought that they dealt with the dynamics in these kinds of things fairly well. I thought that they showed how the manipulation attempts and passive-aggressive tactics some couples use on each other to make the other jealous, or get them to come back to the R were pretty realistic. It showed that manipulation attempts usually back-fire on you, and that passive-aggressiveness actually leads to the other person being less attracted to you not more.

There was a scene near the end of the movie where Jennifer Aniston invites Vince Vaughn to a concert trying to get back together (after the condo is being sold and they have two week to move out), and he stands her up. The next morning he goes to her room to find her crying, and she has the heart-to-heart with him that she should have had with him instead of the big blow-up that started the whole mess. I thought this was also well done because it showed that by time the one "spouse" is ready to really confront the real issues in the R, it is usually too late and the dynamics of the R are such that the damage has been done, too much toothpaste is out of the tube, and trying to put it all back together again is probably futile at that point.

In that scene, Vince's character, after Jennifer's tells him exactly why she had been unhappy, says "Why didn't you ever say that?" She says: "I did try to say that so many times." And he says: "Yeah, but never like that." But since he just stood her up for the concert she is no longer interested in trying, she is tired of being hurt.

Anyway, just wanted to share these observations. I know movies like this play things up to be funny and entertaining, but at its heart there was a lot of realism and truth. LBHs I do not suggest running out and putting a pool table in the dining room as a show of power! LOL And LBWs, getting a "wax" and parading around naked to make him jealous probably isn't a good tactic either.

Yep. I remember seeing that movie and thinking holy fuch that was my marriage to a T.

If you want to watch a movie to get you fired up watch Unfaithful with Richard Gere.

Originally Posted by LH19

Yep. I remember seeing that movie and thinking holy fuch that was my marriage to a T.

If you want to watch a movie to get you fired up watch Unfaithful with Richard Gere.

LH, not sure if you read this in my sitch or not, but that was the movie that got me going "Hmmmmmm" on BD in 2017, that caused me to snoop, find the messages to OM, and confront. It came on one of the regular cable channels, and I was busy working on folding clothes or something, and just started watching it. Unfaithful is such a realistic movie (other than the getting away with murder part), because it shows how the cheating spouse changes, and how the changes are noticed by the spouse being cheated on. The way she acted in front of him in the bathtub was such a smack in the face wake-up call! It was when I really realized that she hadn't been changing in front of me for months and I was so wrapped up in my own bitterness and resentment that I didn't even notice......until 12/23/2017 watching that movie suddenly everything hit me.

Gere wasn�t even a bad husband he just maybe worked too much. I couldn�t even watch that movie when I was in the thick of it. I watched it not long ago and just shook my head and said fuching WWs will risk everything to get the excitement.

Steve,

I do enjoy when you find unexpected wisdom like you did, and I have to LOL b/c MWD wrote about how people gain many misconceptions about relationships from Hollywood.

Ultimately, it is crazy how R's can snowball like this and understand these dynamics logically can allow people here to step back and make rational decisions about how to break such a cycle. I still find myself getting sucked into complacency and old habits.

SteveLW/LH19,

Originally Posted by SteveLW

There was a scene near the end of the movie where Jennifer Aniston invites Vince Vaughn to a concert trying to get back together (after the condo is being sold and they have two week to move out), and he stands her up. The next morning he goes to her room to find her crying, and she has the heart-to-heart with him that she should have had with him instead of the big blow-up that started the whole mess. I thought this was also well done because it showed that by time the one "spouse" is ready to really confront the real issues in the R, it is usually too late and the dynamics of the R are such that the damage has been done, too much toothpaste is out of the tube, and trying to put it all back together again is probably futile at that point.

In that scene, Vince's character, after Jennifer's tells him exactly why she had been unhappy, says "Why didn't you ever say that?" She says: "I did try to say that so many times." And he says: "Yeah, but never like that." But since he just stood her up for the concert she is no longer interested in trying, she is tired of being hurt.

Interesting on the timing / dynamics of who wants to try when. And the ending leaves it ambiguous as to whether or not they reconcile in the future...

Originally Posted by LH19

Yep. I remember seeing that movie and thinking holy fuch that was my marriage to a T.

If you want to watch a movie to get you fired up watch Unfaithful with Richard Gere.

Originally Posted by LH19

Gere wasn�t even a bad husband he just maybe worked too much. I couldn�t even watch that movie when I was in the thick of it. I watched it not long ago and just shook my head and said fuching WWs will risk everything to get the excitement.

I remember watching "Unfaithful" movie 20 years ago and thinking back then if I were on Gere's jury I'd feel like acquitting him for justifiable homicide...and that was well before my current sitch. The prosecutor better strike me from the jury pool at this point!

Funny timing on this topic. Just last night I watched "Crazy, Stupid, Love." on Netflix because the premise is Steve Carrel's wife cheats on him with a coworker and a younger/smoother Ryan Gosling coaches him to get over it and be a ladies man by doing many of the things suggested here, and other places recommended her like the Entrepreneurs in Cars and 3% Man (stop telling people your sob story, up your wardrobe, be more confident...etc.). He even tells him at one point: "Your wife cheated on you because you lost sight of who you are as a man, as a husband, and probably as a lover." Unfortunately it devolves into a typical Hollywood RomCom at the end where all the guys (including the affair partner) get into a scuffle and Carrel appeals to her emotions through "romantic / history talk" and they get back together.

Another great one is "Forgetting Sarah Marshal". Besides being hilarious, it follows the script to a "T". Kristen Bell is cheating on and dumps Jason Segel, who begs and pleads her back initially and she's annoyed by it, but eventually he meets Mila Kunis and starts having fun and enjoying life and realizes all the reasons Kristin Bell's character was awful (whereas she starts remembering how great he was at times compared to the new guy) and wants him back. Fortunately for him he's already moved on with Kunis and is much happier.

Another message in Crazy, Stupid, Love is that Ryan Gosling's life isn't all that fulfilling either. The "lady's man", bouncing from one night stand to one night stand, wasn't setup for long-term happiness either. And while it temporarily made Carrel's character feel better, he really just wanted his family back. That was also why Ryan Gosling befriended him to help him was something was missing from his life. And then there is the whole Ryan Gosling showing up with Carrel's daughter, and Carrel realizing that Gosling wasn't the kind of guy you wanted for your daughter!

I agree with MWD, Hollywood typically messes up the messaging, and even in the movies we are discussing, they take the story to places that no one in real life should go (killing the OM, getting into a group brawl with OM in the backyard, etc). But the underlying messages can resonate in our own MRs and sitches.

Quote

they take the story to places that no one in real life should go (killing the OM, getting into a group brawl with OM in the backyard, etc). But the underlying messages can resonate in our own MRs and sitches.

I don't condone it, but I understand.

"Marriage Story" is another one that is worth watching if you can emotionally handle it.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

"Marriage Story" is another one that is worth watching if you can emotionally handle it.

I've been avoiding that one. The others are mostly comedies. Based on the previews of Marriage Story it seems a bit too real and emotionally poignant with everything so raw.

Quick update:

D graduated from HS. Will be heading off to college this fall. Exciting, scary and sad all at the same time! Interesting the range of emotions. My dad, at her ceremony, asked me if I was going to cry. (Men in our family tend to not cry very often.) I said "No. I would have cried if she hadn't graduated!"

Part of the issue is that I think back to when things were not going well in my MR. I would look ahead to the summer-fall of 2021 as when I was going to pull the plug since my D was 18. A common (from talking to other people that are unhappy in their MR) plan that some actually end up following through on. Of course, it has been years since I've thought like that and now could never imagine even considering that.

Luckily we've saved a decent amount to fund college for her, so we are good there. So now my thoughts are turning to retirement! I've always wanted to retire early, so we will see. I am probably a good 3-4 years away from being able to retire and have investments whose growth will outpace spending for the rest of my life (using 100 yo as the calculation!) So we will see how it goes.

I've been thinking a lot about folks going through post-BD limbo and continue to empathize with their plight. I'd love to see activity on the forum pick up. I really enjoy sharing my experience with others, and hopefully helping them in the process. So I miss the forum having more active posters with active sitches to help. Have had a couple of friends go through it in the last couple of years so I've been trying to help them as well. Of all of the "experts" I studied so thoroughly over the years, MWD has the best formula for dealing with and moving forward from BD and the aftermath!

Originally Posted by SteveLW

Part of the issue is that I think back to when things were not going well in my MR. I would look ahead to the summer-fall of 2021 as when I was going to pull the plug since my D was 18. A common (from talking to other people that are unhappy in their MR) plan that some actually end up following through on.

My brothers sister-in-law literally moved in with her mom the day after her oldest son's graduation party. Never looked back and now is engaged to a man very different then her ex husband. The "grey divorce" is on the rise and I think will only continue to grow as people live longer. It is my opinion that the institute of marriage will be obsolete in the next 100 years. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by LH19

It is my opinion that the institute of marriage will be obsolete in the next 100 years. Sad but true.

I feel that today marriage is often nothing more than a legal contract and is increasingly becoming disconnected from what a loving relationship is. This is not even a modern thing but has been the case throughout the history of mankind where marriages have been based on political alliances, ability to provide or other factors that have nothing to do with love. Look at some of the great love stories told and think about how many of those couples were married. Romeo and Juliet is a great example where the couple is in love but has no path to get married. If they did not die at the end of the play they probably would have ended up in unhappy marriages with other people in the sequel

Originally Posted by SteveLW

I've been thinking a lot about folks going through post-BD limbo and continue to empathize with their plight. I'd love to see activity on the forum pick up. I really enjoy sharing my experience with others, and hopefully helping them in the process. So I miss the forum having more active posters with active sitches to help. Have had a couple of friends go through it in the last couple of years so I've been trying to help them as well. Of all of the "experts" I studied so thoroughly over the years, MWD has the best formula for dealing with and moving forward from BD and the aftermath!

Congrats on the Graduation of your D... huge milestone.

As for the activity on this board... I feel the decline is really due to the amount of negativity in general. I'm not pointing any fingers to anyone... its a very broad generalization.

More than once someone has felt personally attacked and decided to leave.

I think its important to realize that there is more than one way to slice an apple. Negative thoughts beget negative actions... I think that if you feel to focus on more positives... things tend to positively improve. Mindset is soooo important when going through a major trauma.

I think there needs to be more focus on inclusivity... because frankly there are things touted on this board that are not in line with MWD principles. MWD tends to focus on small steps and small goals and positives where sometimes on this board you are being cut down by someone else's personal opinion.

There are other boards out there - some better... some worse... but I think the ones with most success tend to help someone focus on positives... and taking small wins.

Again - this is just my opinion.

Originally Posted by KitCat

Originally Posted by SteveLW

I've been thinking a lot about folks going through post-BD limbo and continue to empathize with their plight. I'd love to see activity on the forum pick up. I really enjoy sharing my experience with others, and hopefully helping them in the process. So I miss the forum having more active posters with active sitches to help. Have had a couple of friends go through it in the last couple of years so I've been trying to help them as well. Of all of the "experts" I studied so thoroughly over the years, MWD has the best formula for dealing with and moving forward from BD and the aftermath!

Congrats on the Graduation of your D... huge milestone.

As for the activity on this board... I feel the decline is really due to the amount of negativity in general. I'm not pointing any fingers to anyone... its a very broad generalization.

More than once someone has felt personally attacked and decided to leave.

I think its important to realize that there is more than one way to slice an apple. Negative thoughts beget negative actions... I think that if you feel to focus on more positives... things tend to positively improve. Mindset is soooo important when going through a major trauma.

I think there needs to be more focus on inclusivity... because frankly there are things touted on this board that are not in line with MWD principles. MWD tends to focus on small steps and small goals and positives where sometimes on this board you are being cut down by someone else's personal opinion.

There are other boards out there - some better... some worse... but I think the ones with most success tend to help someone focus on positives... and taking small wins.

Again - this is just my opinion.

Well KK I am sorry you feel that way. It's interesting you would mention MWDs principles when you never took them anyway. Steve, AS, myself, Ginger and Thornton took our time and posted trying to help you through the entire process. Everyone told you that you need therapy and you refused. Everyone told you that you can't nice him back and you ignored and actually still ignore. Everyone told you not to date and you did. There are no shortcuts in this process. That is why you are still suffering and will continue to suffer. Manipulation does not work in this process. Time and space are the only thing that works and you still refuse to believe it. We never had a chance to help you because you were never going to listen.

Originally Posted by KitCat

Originally Posted by SteveLW

I've been thinking a lot about folks going through post-BD limbo and continue to empathize with their plight. I'd love to see activity on the forum pick up. I really enjoy sharing my experience with others, and hopefully helping them in the process. So I miss the forum having more active posters with active sitches to help. Have had a couple of friends go through it in the last couple of years so I've been trying to help them as well. Of all of the "experts" I studied so thoroughly over the years, MWD has the best formula for dealing with and moving forward from BD and the aftermath!

Congrats on the Graduation of your D... huge milestone.

As for the activity on this board... I feel the decline is really due to the amount of negativity in general. I'm not pointing any fingers to anyone... its a very broad generalization.

More than once someone has felt personally attacked and decided to leave.

I think its important to realize that there is more than one way to slice an apple. Negative thoughts beget negative actions... I think that if you feel to focus on more positives... things tend to positively improve. Mindset is soooo important when going through a major trauma.

I think there needs to be more focus on inclusivity... because frankly there are things touted on this board that are not in line with MWD principles. MWD tends to focus on small steps and small goals and positives where sometimes on this board you are being cut down by someone else's personal opinion.

There are other boards out there - some better... some worse... but I think the ones with most success tend to help someone focus on positives... and taking small wins.

Again - this is just my opinion.

KC, thank you! Yes, she's a very intelligent woman, but that doesn't reflect in her being a student. She inherited my procrastination. She had 4.0+ potential, but ended up in the 3.2 range. Just like her old man! But I have hope, that like me, she'll turn it around in college. I graduated with my degree with honors after being an average 3.0 HS student.

KC, hear you. However, if I could give you some advice in my own thread, I'd suggest you always look for the positive even in what originally seems negative. For instance, I left your thread because you took something I meant as a metaphor as a literal. When I compared your enablement of your STBXH through the puppy, to someone that enables another through drug use it wasn't an apple to apples comparison. In fact, the point was that your excuses for enabling him were similar to the excuses you hear from enablers of an addict. Yet you took it as me saying that your willingness to enable him through puppy sitting was the same as giving him heroin. That wasn't what I meant at all.

So while agree that negativity breeds negativity, what I think you should do is step back from something you initially take as negative and see if their are positives. I've used the example of a true friend before. A true friend will tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. And there is nothing negative about that! When we are doing something immortal, unethical, or self-destructive, and a friend is brave enough and cares enough to point it out, that's a positive, even if the message sounds negative.

Think about your son. If he were doing something he shouldn't do, wouldn't you tell him that?

Okay, this is getting long-winded, but the point is that the posters here want to help. When they all respond negatively to what you're doing, is it possible that they are all wrong and you are right? Or is it more logical that everyone else is right and you're wrong? Something to think about.

Thanks for posting! I hope you're doing well and continuing to move forward.

Originally Posted by KitCat

I think there needs to be more focus on inclusivity... because frankly there are things touted on this board that are not in line with MWD principles. MWD tends to focus on small steps and small goals and positives where sometimes on this board you are being cut down by someone else's personal opinion.

I did want to address this. I think the problem you felt in your thread was you saw small steps and small goals when maybe there weren't any? For instance, you would hyper-focus on "He was nice to me on the phone!" and ignore that he had moved in with OW. Or "he came over to work on X" but ignore that after he fixed X he left to go home to be with OW. So maybe, and I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, that you were thinking something was a small step, goal or positive, when in reality it wasn't. Being disconnected from truth is a defense mechanism that we all have. Some more than others.

Originally Posted by SteveLW

Originally Posted by KitCat

I think there needs to be more focus on inclusivity... because frankly there are things touted on this board that are not in line with MWD principles. MWD tends to focus on small steps and small goals and positives where sometimes on this board you are being cut down by someone else's personal opinion.

I did want to address this. I think the problem you felt in your thread was you saw small steps and small goals when maybe there weren't any? For instance, you would hyper-focus on "He was nice to me on the phone!" and ignore that he had moved in with OW. Or "he came over to work on X" but ignore that after he fixed X he left to go home to be with OW. So maybe, and I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, that you were thinking something was a small step, goal or positive, when in reality it wasn't. Being disconnected from truth is a defense mechanism that we all have. Some more than others.

I was NOT referring to myself OR my thread.

I was referring to the board overall over the last several months. And, I think pouring more personal opinion/convictions over the basic principles of the board poured over too many... and caused people to leave or just overall post less.

There was sooo much put out there about never taking a cheater back and then fine lines drawn over a cheater being PA not so much EA.

^^^^ That is NOT MWD principle and is not even remotely in the book...

Affairs are a symptom of the issues at hand and not so much the primary problem. So digging deeper... what makes a person leave their relationship? Not feeling liked, not feeling loved or not feeling respected... perhaps all 3.

Most people here on this board are dealing with a M crisis is dealing with EA/PA. Those M's are recoverable. They are not a lost cause and the WS does not need thrown under the bus ---- no one here outside the poster KNOWS the WS. You cannot diagnosis my WS as narcissistic no more than any other condition because again... you are only being given a small picture from a hurting person.

Guiding someone to GAL is fine and fantastic!!! IT is MWD principle. It can be alternatively said that the focus must come off the WS and the M... that in itself is a very difficult process to go through but can be done.

MWD states specifically look at cheeseless tunnels... and stop doing those behaviors. To set goals.. small obtainable ones and to mark your positive progress. If you are not making progress go back to cheeselss tunnels and start again. NOTHING states never taking back a cheater...

I think LESS WS bashing might bring this board back to life. Helping to understand what causes marital strife and the responsibilities of each party might be more therapeutic than trashing the WS constantly.

This is just my opinon. But, you can literally see this board is nearly dead. Unless some changes are made it may not come back to life. Which is unfortunate because there are a lot of great things here!

KK,

You see that is why I stay away from the "cookie cutter" advice and look at each situation differently.

Case and point "new Steve's'" W had I think 7 affairs. I can't in good conscious give him advice to take his w back.

Your husband not only cheated on you he physically and emotionally abused you. That changes my advice on things.

I am all about second chances if the WW does the steps to earn another chance.

I really don't think you are being fair and this is more KK manipulation that fits into your narrative.

KC, I have never told another poster that they shouldn't be willing to take a spouse who cheated back UNLESS that poster said that a PA was a deal-breaker for them. We have had posters here that have said "PAs were always a deal-breaker for me. My WAS/WS knew that."

This is a different situation than a LBS that never espoused such a boundary.

I think every situation is different. And I've tried to approach every situation that way. I am one of the first here to encourage a LBS to be open to R when a WAS starts to show signs of wanting to come back. If it feels like those signs are real or genuine, then I start advising that LBS differently than I would when their spouse is showing no signs of wanting to come back. Or if the signs are more manipulation and smoke-screen.

So, for me, and I can only speak for myself, I try hard NOT to put my line in the sand on PAs on others, unless the other has stated the same. Because often times what happens is that LBSs are willing to give up their deal-breakers and roll over and take whatever the WAS/WS is willing to dish out all in the name of trying to "save" the MR. Nothing in MWD's writings suggests that the LBS should become a doormat. In fact, she has specifically stated in writing and in her videos NOT to be a doormat.

So yes, some posters may say "once a cheater, always a cheater". We have had many LBSs here who have been cheated on many many times over and need to hear that message. However, no matter what anyone else types or says, the LBS ALWAYS has the option of separating the wheat from the chaff, take the advice that makes sense in their situation, and ignore the advice that doesn't align with their own personal beliefs. For instance, after it was clear that you like alcohol, I stopped harping on you to not drink alcohol. I am a recovering alcoholics, 27 years sober. So I shouldn't put that on you! (However, DBing is hard enough when you are sober...many a LBS has regretted the drunk call to the STBX.)

I haven't witnessed a lot of WS bashing. I've seen a lot of WS behavior bashing. And I think KC this is another area of self-improvement you can make. Separating the PERSON from the BEHAVIOR. None of us know your STBXH well enough to BASH him. But we certainly could see how he was treating you, the behavior he was choosing to engage in, and bash that behavior. I think our society takes chastisement of behavior way too personally! One of the things that is in our power to do is change our behavior. So harping on behavior doesn't have to mean harping on the individual.

MWD does leave it up to the LBS to decide if they want to take a cheater back or not. But MWD also never faults a LBS that chooses D over taking a cheater back if that is a deal-breaker for that LBS. However, what MWD is unequivocal on is that you CANNOT save a MR when one spouse IS ACTIVELY CHEATING!!! This board has always reflected that. No one on this board is against taking a cheater back that acknowledges their affair, is remorseful of it, is willing to abide by the LBS' requirements for returning to the MR, and is ready to work on that MR. But this board has always maintained, like MWD, that is impossible to work on a MR when the WAS/WS is actively engaging in the affair.

KC, I think your thread title has always been your problem. You do not want a D. Your H was abusive. Emotionally and physically. He not only cheated on you and but left you for the OW and moved in with her, presumably ready to marry her once your D is final. He also treated your son pretty badly. You even started dating and sleeping with other people, one guy that you fell pretty hard for. Yet you still maintain that you do not want a D! You never could get to the point where you were DBing to move forward with your life WITH OR WITHOUT your STBXH. It was always about trying to get him to come back. Maybe we were heavy-handed with you at times. Maybe we were too hard on your STBXH, I am sure he has his reasons for what he did (the abuse ASIDE, I will never excuse that!!). But it was always in effort to try to get you to wake up and face your reality.

I have continued to pray for you KC. I will continue to do so. Sorry for the novel. But your posts have been thought-provoking.

Originally Posted by LH19

KK,

You see that is why I stay away from the "cookie cutter" advice and look at each situation differently.

Case and point "new Steve's'" W had I think 7 affairs. I can't in good conscious give him advice to take his w back.

Your husband not only cheated on you he physically and emotionally abused you. That changes my advice on things.

I am all about second chances if the WW does the steps to earn another chance.

I really don't think you are being fair and this is more KK manipulation that fits into your narrative.

+1 for stating what I was trying to say but more succinctly!

Originally Posted by KitCat

no one here outside the poster KNOWS the WS. You cannot diagnosis my WS as narcissistic no more than any other condition because again... you are only being given a small picture from a hurting person. I think LESS WS bashing might bring this board back to life. Helping to understand what causes marital strife and the responsibilities of each party might be more therapeutic than trashing the WS constantly.

Originally Posted by LH

Case and point "new Steve's'" W had I think 7 affairs. I can't in good conscious give him advice to take his w back.

Your husband not only cheated on you he physically and emotionally abused you. That changes my advice on things.

I hear you, KitCat. We aren't qualified to diagnose if Steve'x STBXW or your STBXH have mental illnesses. We aren't qualified to assess their value as humans. I'll get personal. My XGF has competed in international sports, taught at Harvard, solo parented, donated to charities, and made scientific advances. The world is better with her in it. However, that she's verbally abusive makes her a terrible partner. Steve's STBXW is a serial cheater and so a terrible partner. Your STBXH is an abusive cheater and so a terrible partner. Whatever faults you, Steve, or I have--each of us have enough to warranty therapy--may have justified leaving us. It doesn't justify abuse or serial cheating. That's on them and speaks to character flaws making them poor choices for partners. Maybe, years from now, your STBXH upon cheating on or abusing his current partner and finding himself single again will tell you he completed an anger management program and deeply regrets cheating on you. Maybe he can articulate what changed beyond losing his Plan A and wanting his Plan B. That may change things, or maybe you'll have moved on or be with a good partner by then.

I wish I could keep everyone's details straight in my head, but I can't. I know LH19 and Steve do a fair job at this.

I believe divorcebusting.com has lost some SEO (Search Engine Optimization) and may not be getting the exposure it used to. I just did a quick search on a few terms that should be hit, but did not see any links to this site. Might explain the lack of newbies.

8 user and 62 Anonymous online right now. (lots of lurkers).

I have to refresh my comprehension of the board policies from time to time:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553123#Post2553123

This quote stands out: "This is not a peer-counseling site, it's a brainstorming solutions site."

During brainstorming sessions IRL, one of the main ideas to write down every idea. No ideas are bad. 20 ideas is better than 19.

I do censor some of my personal beliefs when I post because I understand MWD view on exposing affairs ect. and attempt to keep things in line with hers.

I do not believe married people should date people outside the marriage. Even if one spouse is actively cheating. But if some one asks for dating advise, I will give them advise as if they are a single person.

The more each of us can give from our personal experiences and knowledge, the better.

It is up to the reader (Who may not be the thread owner) to process all that they are reading and make a decision on how to apply new behaviors to their life. They then live with the consequences of those choices. Good or Bad. Rinse and repeat for the next choice.

We told DanF that driving past his "old house" was a bad idea. Did he listen and change his behavior? He did what he felt like vs what he knew he should do. Either learn from others or learn lessons for yourself.

A topic that I keep coming back to when thinking about my own sitch and in so many others' sitches, is why the LBS holds on so tight to the WAS. I know LH has done a masterful job of describing this phenomenon in past with his description of the loss of feeling of control. And I think that is a big part of it. But I think there is another human dynamic that comes into play here as well. And that is the "I can make a person like me" mindset.

I have a family member that has self-esteem issues. When they feel like someone doesn't like them the get over the top with trying to make that person like them. They will hound the other person, trying to show the other person how "cool" they are. They try to be funny, as well as being an all around fun person to be around.

Of course this behavior has the opposite effect. The harder this person tries, the other person starts to loathe them more and more! The efforts come across as disingenuous, and the other person feels smothered whenever they have to be around this person. Sound familiar?

One thing I learned growing up around this family member was to not push myself on other people. If someone doesn't like me, then I just avoid that person. I don't want to be a burden to that other person, I don't want to push myself on them, and I certainly do not want them to feel smothered when we do cross paths. I have a very close friend (he and I hung out just last night), that many many years ago when we first started to interact through mutual friends, he didn't like me. I backed way off, never pursued this person as a friend, and eventually through our interactions a friendship did develop, and he is one of my best friends now.

This is why the advice for DBing is to back off of the WAS. Remove all pursuit and pressure. Go into "as if" mode, and just go out and live your own life. One of the things I have learned watching this family member over the decades is that you cannot make someone like you. What you can do is go about your own business, and eventually they may get interested and start coming back around to liking you. But smothering, and pursuing, and pressuring will just drive them further away.

As I've pointed out before in my own situation, my first two days after BD I defaulted to pursuit, pressure, badgering, questioning, pushing myself on her, etc. And all it did was push her further away. Due to our first situation 12 years before, on day 3 I remembered DBing and backed way off. I instituted the dropping all pressure and pursuit, and left her alone and started to just live my life. I am not saying that is what saved my MR, but it certainly didn't hurt it.

New thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2924003&#Post2924003