Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: BL42 WAW w/Exit Affair or WW? - Don't Want Divorce - 07/21/20 08:34 PM
I've been reading this forum (welcome and personal threads) for a month or two now, and thought it was time to post my own story, which spans so far from January 2020 - July 2020, though it may be too late to save my marriage and keep our family together...

At the beginning of the year my wife started a new job. In late January my wife (35) and I (38) took a trip to Disney World with our S5 and D1 along with two other families. Overall we had a fun vacation, enjoying the parks, taking family photos, swimming in the pool with the kids, and catching up with friends. We did have an argument about car seats after arriving back in the airport and getting the car, but I was exhausted from the early morning traveling and fun but tiring week.

In the 2-3 weeks after we returned my wife started acting odd and short/angry towards me. She was cold and distant with my family at my niece's/goddaughter's Christening (she's had a wonderful relationship with them and is usually very warm), didn't sit next to me at a parent/teacher conference, and didn't do anything for me on Valentine's Day whereas I got her flowers, a card, and one of her favorite desserts.

The next day, February 15th, turned out to be "Bomb Day". My wife asked if she could take the kids to my parents' house and go out with two girlfriends to get her nails done (I had gotten sick from my daughter and was isolating myself in bed), which seemed odd with me sick, but I said "sure". When she returned home with the kids she started making dinner and I asked a question about my illness and told her about some research I did for our son’s 5th birthday party and to both she gave me angry/terse responses so I asked why she was so mad at me. She came upstairs while I was sick in bed and with the kids downstairs and said “I’m not happy. I think we may need a trial separation”.

We spoke for a few hours after the kids went to bed and the next day. She told me she’s not happy, she doesn’t feel respected, I’m too critical, too controlling…etc. She said I’ve beaten her down since S5 was born and she hasn’t been happy since we married. She said she had no energy to work on times and wouldn’t go to marriage counseling, even though she herself is a big proponent of individual counseling. I was shocked. Now, we’ve had some arguments over the years on parenting and finances (I tend to be more conservative with the kids’ diet and screen time and in spending money), but nothing I thought was outside of perfectly normal martial disagreements. There was nothing major in my mind - I don’t do drugs or abuse alcohol, I’m responsible with finances, have never so much as flirted with another women, and certainly never abused her physically (or emotionally). We both have good jobs, great kids, two houses, plenty of vacations and good times over the years, and great friends and supportive family in town.

The first week did everything DB/DR and this forum say not to do...giving her heartfelt pleads, buying her concert tickets, leaving notes of encouragement around the house, and texting her pictures of of 6th wedding anniversary getaway a few months before. I read The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman and followed The Love Dare by the Kendrick Brothers. She said I was smothering her and she was broken and needed to work on herself and not be in any relationship.

I took S5 on a ski trip weekend (without W and D1) with another family which my wife had eagerly booked for all of us just the month before, and even though I didn’t want to went on a friends ski trip/work trip for a week on of state (had been planned long in advance) because she said if I didn’t I just move into my parents’ house.

Her behavior scared me so much and I didn’t know whether I’d be asked to move out that I consulted with an attorney before my return, but when I did get back she asked if I could get pizza with the kids and we went grocery shopping and watched a movie as a family. The next day I took S5 to the local high school field to play sports and she ran the track with D1, and then we went to a kids’ birthday party together but she was irritable. I didn’t bring up relationship status for the next few weeks and neither did she – we were in limbo.

Now, I was suspicious after BD and over the next few weeks after BD tracked down phone records and snooped on text messages and it didn’t take long to find out she had started at least an Emotional Affair (EA) with her co-worker/partner at this new job/project they were working. She would go in early and/or stay late to see him, bring him lunch, and they would talk on the phone for 1/2hr every single day after work during their drive home. While I was out of town they’d talk for over an hour late at night while he hid from his wife in the bath tub or his truck in the garage. They started texting more and more to the point she would text him for 4hrs a night (8pm-after midnight) and sometimes when I was in the same room. They would talk about how great each other was at work, how they had a spark that was perfect and no one ever loved them for who they are until now, how they would never stray again, references to hooking up in the office during work hours, planning a life where kids would be running around in the yard...etc. I later found out Other Man (OM) was a few years older, married for 15 years, and had 3 young daughters.

I didn’t want to push or reveal my sources because I didn’t want to push her away or get mad at my snooping (aka controlling), and was hopeful things wouldn’t work with OM because he was married with kids, but felt the need to talk so a few weeks later had a “check point” with where she was – no change – she said she didn’t like me very much and didn’t think she would ever love me again. I asked if there was OM, without getting specific, because all her actions pointed in that direction and she flat out denied and gas-lit me. A few weeks later she was talking/texting late at night and I asked her who and she lied so I said “I know there’s another man. I KNOW.” And she denied again. Then a few days later said “I know there’s another man. His name is XXXXX. He is married and has kids.” They spoke on the phone for 2.5hrs the next day during work. Each one of those talks I said I can forgive and people get through this and so can we. She looked at me dead in the eyes without emotion and flat out denied every time.

Now, in that 2-3 months (March-April she still came to my parents’ house for St. Patrick’s Day, had me come with the family to her dad’s house for his birthday, came to my parents’ house for Easter, invited my parents over for Sunday dinner. But she was texting the other guy telling him she had to act nice to not give things away but it was eating her inside, and bragging how she was redirecting money from her paycheck, and her best friend that she was “keeping the peace”. She also scheduled herself in evening shifts to align with OM’s schedule, and so her managers/friends wouldn’t be around and they could meet up in the office, and so she would barely see me – I worked 9to5 and watched the kids in the evening and she watched the kids in the morning and worked till after midnight, so we barely saw each other except for weeks. However, She also told me she didn’t say she would never go to counseling, just that she wasn’t ready. And then that she would go to counseling but we couldn’t because of COVID, and finally we scheduled something virtually (May time frame).

She went away by herself for Mother’s Day weekend to relax, and didn’t return until Sunday afternoon - my son was crying Sunday afternoon saying “he just wanted to see mommy for Mother’s Day”. We had 3 weekly sessions of counseling with my stated goal being to save our marriage and keep our family together and her saying she wanted to communicate for the kids and didn’t know if she wanted to work on the marriage, and refusing to do any of the ‘homework assignments” the counselor gave us. I pressed the affair in a session and she denied and the counselor said if there is an affair involved Marriage Counseling (MC) will never work because an affair is a fantasy. I pressed my wife after that session referring two things her an OM discussed, so that she would really know I knew, and the next day she finally admitted to an EA and kissing, and that it was over and they were working on their marriages. My sister and I called AP’s wife a week or two later, and OM had told OM's wife her a day after my wife admitted to me (so it seemed coordinated) which also happened to be their 15th wedding anniversary, but OM's wife was putting her hand in the sand for the sake of her children and didn't want to know details and they had "verbally committed to their marriage".

Then on a Friday in late May I accidentally happened across a bag/packaging/receipt for a burner phone on the passenger seat of my wife's car and had to ask her about it. We had a conversation and she said “I’m done. That’s it.” Turns out she had a meeting with an attorney lined up later that day, and on Sunday she said told me she wanted to separate and get a divorce. That she would move out to her mom’s house in late June when she went back to day shift, and the kids would go every other week between her mom’s house (with her) and our house (with me) until our tenants could move out of our other house and she would move there permanently.

I have read everything online from Marriage Helper to Focus on the Family to Affair Recovery to Divorce Busters, and did pick up on this forum in May. I’ve read No More Mr Nice Guy (NMMNG), started reading Divorce Recovery, and bought Divorce Busting. In the last month or two I've been trying to detach and only contacting for child-related items. However, that detachment has not caused her to say or do anything that could even be construed as coming back - she seems to be moving full steam ahead on separation and divorce. She hasn't said much if anything positive since February and we haven't had anything other than accidental physical contact - both unlike some other situations I've read about on this forum (even if they ended up in divorce). I have finally been getting out with friends more golfing, playing cards, getting dinner now that things opened up in my state with COVID, but between COVID and my wife manipulating her schedule, it was difficult to do anything but work and take care of the kids for a few months.

Now we’re negotiating child custody and child support through our attorneys. She has the kids on vacation with her family this week (I was originally supposed to go) and I’ll be taking them on vacation with my family next month (she won’t go), and she’s planning to have the kids move into our/her other house every other week after we return. My son has cried and complained of upset stomach, and asking about mommy.

One note…my family background is extremely stable. My parents are married 40 years and almost all my extended family and friends are not divorced. My wife’s parents divorced when she was 12 and both parents have each been married 3 times. She was in counseling and anti-anxiety/depression (Zoloft) since a teenager, long before we met, and cut her dad out of her life for a few years. So her history is a strong factor here. Also, she was for a period way more distant with D1 than ever with S5 so I'm wondering if postpartum depression is a factor. And looking back there were maybe some warning signs in the Fall/Winter - we had a great anniversary trip (Sept), I threw her a birthday party (Oct), and had a nice Christmas - but there were times she was weird about visiting our niece or not doing much for my birthday (Jan) and being mad at little things.

I know that was long, and may have been better if I'd found this site and posted back in February/March, but...any advice for the present? And, any thoughts on whether my wife is a WAW with an Exit Affair (based on the warning signs in the Fall before the new job and potential affair) or a Wayward Wife?
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
BL,

I am sorry you are here but you have come to the right place.

To answer your question I believe you have a wayward on your hands right now that is all hopped up on dopamine. Don't bother trying to diagnose her with anything because right now it doesn't matter. Things are going to have to get worse before they get better so my suggestion to you is to lean into the seperation and make it clear to her that you need time to figure out what you want. I often say on here that the quickest way to get back together is to go in the opposite direction. Sound scary? Counterintuitive? Two years from now I guarantee you wish you would have listened to me.

You sound a lot like me in which I read every book I could get my hands on because I was convinced I could fix my situation and my W at the time was the most wonderful woman in the world. I was wrong on both counts. You too will see that at some point but like me you are going to have to learn the hard way.

Understand that your life as you knew it will never be the same but that doesn't mean it won't be better. Most of that will depend on your strength through this process.

Good luck and we are here for you.
BL42,

Sorry your currently going through this. Its a hard situation to deal with but I was a bit like yourself, looking for a fix and so far everything I have done has not had the desired outcome. One thing a lot of the self help books say frequently is to flip flop your behaviour, in other words stop doing whats not working. I've learned that trying to "convince" my WW is totally the wrong way to go about things.

The more I thought about this I started to feel that if I convinced my wife to come back I myself would start to need convincing that she actually did want to come back.

At the moment I have decided to keep all communication with my wife related to our finances and our family only (we have grown up kids so not much communication needed there). My wife has behaved exactly as yours and she has left and saying its over that she has no feelings for me etc etc and has now been in a "relationship" with AP for the last few weeks (although an EA has been ongoing since Jan 20) although she hasn't told me this I found out from someone else.

The last few months have been crazy and for my own sanity I decided it was time to take a step back and flipflop my behaviour. If my WW wants to come back I want her to approach me, I have told her that I love her and I have told her she knows where I am if she really wants to talk and I've left it at that.

Hopefully things will get better for you soon but you will see around here that it can take some time for things to improve, but that all depends I suppose on a number of factors such as how well the relationship your WW may now be in goes and how long it takes for the "fog" to lift and for the chemicals in her brain to stabilise again (can be between 4 - 18 months) look up limerance.
BL42 , welcome the forum. Very detailed description of your situation and I feel for you man. I do.

One thing near the end I detected was a desire to diagnose her. And this is a very common LBS tactic. If we can pinpoint our WAS/WS's issue, then maybe we can fix it.

The problem is, you can't. Her issues are so complex that 1) it would be impossible for all but the most expert psychiatrist/psychologist to understand, and 2) that there is no way to "fix" it. There are no magic bullets. There are no magic words to say to snap her out of it. If it were as simple as "say this" or "do that" then you would have come across that in all of your reading. And you wouldn't need to be here.

So whether it is her history, or her anxiety, or her medications (I came here convinced my wife's AD's), or that she just saw a guy and decided she want to have sex with him. There is no "fix".

The only thing you can do is to back off, remove all pressure and pursuit, and focus on you. GAL, 180s (self-improvements), and emotionally detach from her. Those are easy words to type. Those are very difficult words to put into place. Especially early on. Every fiber of your being is going to tell you to do the things that you did to win her over to begin with. It won't.

Also, you asked about WAW or WW. WWs typically want their cake and eat it to. It sounds like she has completely begun to walk. She was WW at the beginning, and if she were to come back before she was fully committed could still be WW. But right now I think your only choice is LRT.
Hi Bl42,


Thanks for sharing. I was going to post almost exactly what LH19 did. He is wise and knows his stuff.

I have been divorced over 10 years. Found this sight right after the bomb drop. Just know that you will be OK either way.

So the important thing is focus on your personal growth. You do this for your children. You can not control what your W will do. You can control how you interact with her and behave around her.

Confidence and respect are two of the primary characteristics women are attracted to. Right now, you should project extreme confidence that you will be OK going through this. Also, do things that will gain her respect. Most guys get these wrong. Learn to do these correctly.

Two of my many mantras:
I do not share my woman with other men. I do not want to be with a woman who does not want to be with me.

PuppyDogTails(PDT) does not post here anymore, but I would dig though all of the quotes and digest the information, especially the ones from PDT:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2896617

There are 11 threads, so it will take some time.


So, the best thing you can do is set her free. Do not try to control her. Work on yourself and let her deal with the mess she is creating.

If you are one of the lucky few, her attraction for the "new you" will return. This will most likely be many months away. She will beg you to take her back, at that point , you will be a completely different person and can deal with doing the right steps to get your family back together.

I wish you well and will help clarify anything if you need.


Hi BL42,

sorry you're here, but glad you're here.

You're firmly in LRT (last resort technique) territory:

1. Stop pursuing.
2. GAL.
3. Wait and see.

It is very simple, just stick to it. You want to remove yourself from her equation. You want to be confident, in control of your emotions, and attractive. Learn attractive behaviors like R2C said.

Originally Posted by BL42
She hasn't said much if anything positive since February and we haven't had anything other than accidental physical contact - both unlike some other situations I've read about on this forum (even if they ended up in divorce).

You've been smothering her it seems, so I doubt she would even throw a bread crumb out there.

Learn, grow, make yourself happy.

Detach. Seriously. Read about it and be about it.
I deeply appreciate everyone's responses. My family and friends have been incredibly supportive but none of them have ever been through something like this and don't truly know how it feels. It helps a great deal to hear your experiences, perspectives, and advice. I've read through countless threads prior to posting myself so I feel I'm familiar with some of you already.

LH19 - I've seen you give advice on a lot of threads, and can tell you're very respected here. Thanks for chiming in. I've consumed so many online resources on the topic over the past 5 months I'm almost overloaded. The advice does seem scary and counter-intuitive, but like every says...what I was doing wasn't working.

WMWB - I'm sorry you're going through the same situation. It truly is awful. I never wanted this for me or my children, and it's difficult to not have any say in the matter. I do think my wife was/is in that fog, but is plowing forward so fast with separation/divorce I'm not sure she'll get out of it in time.

Steve 85 - I've read your threads and am so happy your situation turned around. You give great advice as well. Point taken on the "don't diagnose" but it's hard because I'm an analytical/fixer person. I'm definitely working more recently on the GAL, 180s, and detachment.

Ready4Change - Thanks for the words. It's good to hear I'll be "ok" either way, even if it doesn't feel like that now. The "Confidence and Respect" advice really resonates with me...I've been acting scared to lose my marriage/family so far but need to flip that around and act "as-if". I've talked a lot to my sister about my situation and she especially loved your mantras. I'll dig through the PuppyDogTails(PDT) quotes.

ovrrnbw - I think you're dead on with the LRT territory. My wife is moving hard towards separation and divorce, so I'll do my best to stop pursuing, GAL, and wait & see. Definitely need to work on detaching and controlling my emotions.
This is a tough week because my wife took S5 and D1 on a vacation with her family (I was originally supposed to go). I'm glad the kids are having fun but I miss them so much and it hurts seeing pictures of them knowing I'm not experiencing their joy first-hand. I'm an extremely involved father and hate knowing I'm potentially going to miss half their life due because of the situation.

In terms of GAL...between COVID and my wife (purposefully) signing up for evening shift, the first several months were difficult, as I was only working and watching the kids in the evening and all the restaurants, bars, gyms...etc. were shut down. This week, however, I played cards with friends Tuesday night, went out for food and drinks last night, visiting friends in from out of town tonight, and playing golf tomorrow morning and Saturday. Keep busy and seeing my friends definitely helps - I look forward to those interactions.
Originally Posted by BL42
This is a tough week because my wife took S5 and D1 on a vacation with her family (I was originally supposed to go). I'm glad the kids are having fun but I miss them so much and it hurts seeing pictures of them knowing I'm not experiencing their joy first-hand. I'm an extremely involved father and hate knowing I'm potentially going to miss half their life due because of the situation.

In terms of GAL...between COVID and my wife (purposefully) signing up for evening shift, the first several months were difficult, as I was only working and watching the kids in the evening and all the restaurants, bars, gyms...etc. were shut down. This week, however, I played cards with friends Tuesday night, went out for food and drinks last night, visiting friends in from out of town tonight, and playing golf tomorrow morning and Saturday. Keep busy and seeing my friends definitely helps - I look forward to those interactions.


BL, the blatant disregard for people's lives (and situations) was probably my biggest problem with the shutdowns. I knew people fighting for their lives (non-COVID) in the hospital and family weren't allowed to be there to say goodbye. I knew someone that died of COVID and there was no funeral. I knew people that had legal work to do that couldn't move that forward. People with weddings planned for months (if not years) that were postponed. And then not to mention the posters on this forum stuck in sitches and the shutdowns completely ruined their ability to DB properly, and had them stuck in IHS with no recourse. (Note; this is not political, it is an observation on the disregard for people's lives.)

But what I have continually said is that "where there is a will there is a way". Even in the thick of the most draconian shutdown there were things you could still do if you looked for them. But I do understand GAL was hampered as well as poster's sitches were exasperated due to the shutdowns.

As far as the vacation, just like anything in life you can look at it one of two ways. You can look at it as "oh no, a whole week away from my kids :(" or "I get a whole week away from my kids! :)" Kids are great. I encourage fathers to be very involved in their kids lives. But I also think parents (fathers included) need to take time for themselves!! I was far from a perfect father, some of my mistakes are documented in my threads. But three things I did right: 1) I never missed any of my D's events. Sports, concerts, conferences, etc. I prioritized all of the events involving her. 2) I gave my W time to herself. She had a lot of guilt if she did things for herself. Even when our D was born, I made sure she took time to herself. She didn't always take the opportunity, but when she did she was grateful. 3) I took time for myself. Part of being a good H and father is to make sure your needs are met. Your read NMMNG so you know what I mean here.

GAL does not have to involve other people. Bike rides or bird watching are simple examples.

Keep track of how many times a day you can make any woman smile. Have a goal of increasing this number over time. Covid and masks should not be used as an excuse. Stay safe and interact with the safety in mind.

Cashiers are perfect people to practice with.

Have a great weekend. (This is a decision you make). Stay out of your head.
Hi BL42, I saw your message and I'm getting caught up on your thread. WW's are a crazy bunch, b/c they don't use logic. They operate from their emotions........which is anything but stable. The LBH, who applies logic to everything, tries to figure out what he should do. The advice you get here will seem counter-intuitive to you, b/c most LBH's want to prove to their WW that he can be a better H, that he's committed, he loves her, and that he is ready to work on their M. However, as discouraging as it may sound, the WW isn't interested. She's done, and has moved on (at least, emotionally). Therefore, the more he tries to give her an opportunity to see him working to get good enough to have her.........he's actually setting himself up for more rejection and pain.

A few years ago, the board members would approach newcomers about 180's and tell him to list the things he needed to change, etc. Apparently, we gave them the idea they were to make 180's just to get his WW back. It was as if he saw his WW as a great prize, and he was trying to become some kind of super husband who won the prize. Some LBH's have difficulty in staying balanced, and I mean that as no offensive. They are under a terrible, emotional strain when they arrive on the board. Many of them have already read a library of marriage-saving books, searched the Internet, and whatever he could find. It can get a bit too much, b/c the emotional stress and a sense of feeling the clock ticking down can end in an overload, and you feel you are crashing. Sometimes, we might recommend a book, but we have to be careful, due to the board's policies. I suppose I said all of this to tell you that in your current sitch, you aren't going to be able to show her what a wonderful H you could be, b/c she has left you and she's involved with OM. Therefore, consider the changes you need to make as a man, and as a father. Learn where you made mistakes, and what you would do if in that scenario again. Am I making sense? I'll explain more as I post on your thread. In the meantime, don't hesitate to ask questions if I'm not making sense. smile

Quote
I pressed my wife after that session referring two things her an OM discussed, so that she would really know I knew, and the next day she finally admitted to an EA and kissing, and that it was over and they were working on their marriages.


I have seen LBHs who have that need gnawing at them. I'm talking about the H who wants his WW to know he is on to her lies & deceit. IDK, but I think maybe it has to do with him letting her know she hasn't made a fool out of him. Perhaps he thinks it will lead to a confession. Very few WW will admit an A when first confronted, and H's give away their source of intell by trying to show his WW that he has proof. I've read stories of LBH's hiring PI's to follow his WW, and even when she was confronted with 8x10 glossy photos of her physically entangled with her lover..........she'd deny and lie. crazy

If a WW finally admits anything, it is usually only a portion of truth. Sometimes it's trickled down truth. In the beginning, she'll only admit to a lower level of the whole truth. Your W said there was kissing. I suspect there was a little more involved. She says the EA is over and that "they were working on their marriages". I doubt your W is the first woman this older man has preyed on at work, and I doubt the EA is really over. Are they still working together? Has she moved back into the marital home?

While I wait on the answers to those two questions, I'll give my thoughts on what could be going on with her. PPD is a very real thing that can last for years. I'm not a doctor, so I don't know which medication would be most effective, but I was prescribed Zoloft, and funny enough.......that's what I was taking when I crossed that inappropriate line and started talking to OM. That stuff just made me feel dead. From women I've talked to about Zoloft, it kills their sex drive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Zoloft for having an Internet A. The foundation for a wayward mindset was already there. I was really depressed and unhappy in my M, which didn't help matters........and neither did Zoloft.

You asked if she was a WW or if this was an exit affair. In some cases, I think there is an over-lap of the two. Just as with depression or other health issues, it can intensify things for her. She can be a WW and have an additional issue, too. See what I mean? If she has childhood issues, or whatever, she will probably need to see a professional for those problems. Unfortunately, the H who tries to tell his W she needs to do this or that.......is seen as a "fixer", and she's not very receptive to him fixing her. Has your W blamed you for the failure of the M, or for her unhappiness?

I'm a little concerned about what you see in her toward the baby girl. Maybe it is due to PPD, I just don't know. Did she want to get pregnant at that time? Was it a surprise? Is she a career-centered woman, working her way up the ranks? Just wondering if it is a bit of resentment.

It's a little odd, but not uncommon, that she wouldn't want to see an IC, considering she was depressed. I can understand why she wouldn't want to bother seeing a MC, b/c the M was done, and she had another guy in her head. So, where are things now?
My children returned home from their vacation with my W and her family yesterday. It was so good to see them again.
My S5 ran over and gave me a huge hug and started running around the house all excited and telling me about his week. My W took my D1 out of the car and sat on the couch counseling her until she settled down (she was crying/cranky from the long car ride), at which point D1 gave me a huge smile and said "daddy!". They give me so much pride & joy.

The transition went fairly smoothly. My W told me about S5 going under the waves and I responded: "Wow, that's awesome!", and said my D1 didn't like sea weed and I responded "Oh, no kidding lol", but other than that there was little conversation/interaction between us as I focused on the kids. My son did ask my W when he'd see her again and is counting the days. He asked to video call her before bed so I did reach out to her for that but kept out of sight of the phone while they talked. I believe everyone here would say I handled the exchange well in terms of detachment.

Steve85 & Ready2Change - Thanks for the advice on GAL. Cards, grilling, golfing, dinner w/friends...etc. was a lot of fun, and much needed. I even spent the morning prepping the house, making the kids' rooms all nice and grocery shopping. Although I missed the kids a ton, I must admit it was good to have time for myself to have fun and get things done, and it helped to video call them each day.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Hi BL42, I saw your message and I'm getting caught up on your thread. WW's are a crazy bunch, b/c they don't use logic. They operate from their emotions........which is anything but stable. The LBH, who applies logic to everything, tries to figure out what he should do. The advice you get here will seem counter-intuitive to you, b/c most LBH's want to prove to their WW that he can be a better H, that he's committed, he loves her, and that he is ready to work on their M. However, as discouraging as it may sound, the WW isn't interested. She's done, and has moved on (at least, emotionally). Therefore, the more he tries to give her an opportunity to see him working to get good enough to have her.........he's actually setting himself up for more rejection and pain.

That's definitely me. On BD I listened to her complaints and thought/said these are completely fixable "let's work this out and go to counseling", but she said she didn't have the energy or desire to work on it. Even so, I spent the next several months trying to address each and every issue and went above and beyond as a husband and father, to no avail.

Originally Posted by sandi2

A few years ago, the board members would approach newcomers about 180's and tell him to list the things he needed to change, etc. Apparently, we gave them the idea they were to make 180's just to get his WW back. It was as if he saw his WW as a great prize, and he was trying to become some kind of super husband who won the prize. Some LBH's have difficulty in staying balanced, and I mean that as no offensive. They are under a terrible, emotional strain when they arrive on the board. Many of them have already read a library of marriage-saving books, searched the Internet, and whatever he could find. It can get a bit too much, b/c the emotional stress and a sense of feeling the clock ticking down can end in an overload, and you feel you are crashing. Sometimes, we might recommend a book, but we have to be careful, due to the board's policies. I suppose I said all of this to tell you that in your current sitch, you aren't going to be able to show her what a wonderful H you could be, b/c she has left you and she's involved with OM. Therefore, consider the changes you need to make as a man, and as a father. Learn where you made mistakes, and what you would do if in that scenario again. Am I making sense? I'll explain more as I post on your thread. In the meantime, don't hesitate to ask questions if I'm not making sense. smile

Me again. I read "The Five Love Languages" by Gary Chapman, "The Love Dare" by the Kendrick Brothers, read Focus on the Family articles, watched every video on "Affair Recovery" and "Marriage Helper" even with head phones in the living room while she texted OM (saying it was just her girlfriend), and finally ended up on Divorce Busting website and read NMMNG and bought DR & DB. I've also been in weekly IC since February. I'm starting to understand I need to work on myself rather than "fixing" the relationship.

Originally Posted by BL42
I pressed my wife after that session referring two things her an OM discussed, so that she would really know I knew, and the next day she finally admitted to an EA and kissing, and that it was over and they were working on their marriages.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I have seen LBHs who have that need gnawing at them. I'm talking about the H who wants his WW to know he is on to her lies & deceit. IDK, but I think maybe it has to do with him letting her know she hasn't made a fool out of him. Perhaps he thinks it will lead to a confession. Very few WW will admit an A when first confronted, and H's give away their source of intell by trying to show his WW that he has proof. I've read stories of LBH's hiring PI's to follow his WW, and even when she was confronted with 8x10 glossy photos of her physically entangled with her lover..........she'd deny and lie. crazy

There may have been an aspect of it for me to prove I wasn't fooled - my W & OM mocked me a bit saying "he got nothing"...etc - but I think it was more that the truth had to come out for us to have any chance of working on our marriage/family and if it came out it might jolt her into realizing the mistake she was making. Obviously that didn't work.

Originally Posted by sandi2
If a WW finally admits anything, it is usually only a portion of truth. Sometimes it's trickled down truth. In the beginning, she'll only admit to a lower level of the whole truth. Your W said there was kissing. I suspect there was a little more involved. She says the EA is over and that "they were working on their marriages". I doubt your W is the first woman this older man has preyed on at work, and I doubt the EA is really over. Are they still working together? Has she moved back into the marital home?

I'm certain you're right there was more than kissing, based on the information/evidence I have. I pressed her on a Wednesday morning, she went to work Wednesday night, admitted the EA & kissing on Thursday morning, and I later found out OM told his wife either Friday or Saturday (on their 15th wedding anniversary). The timing seems suspiciously coordinated, like they had discussed a plan Wednesday night to admit the minimal amount. Obviously she wasn't interested in working on the marriage. OM's W does know about the affair now, but is sticking her head in the sand purposefully for the benefit of their 3 daughters, so OM doesn't have a lot of incentive to end things. My W claims they did end things, but based on what I knew before (and what I've read about EAs/PAs) I doubt it's over. My wife moved out into her mother's house a month ago, and is moving into our 2nd house next week (after our tenants move out). My W and OM do still work together, but are working remotely teaching classes at the hospital virtually from home (instead of in an office setting as before) so they have less occasion to be physically together although they can just as easily use work IM or video claims to continue the EA. I can't know for sure. Either way, she's full force into separation (moved out a month ago, took her phone off family plan, redirected mail, and is moving into our other house next week).

Originally Posted by sandi2
While I wait on the answers to those two questions, I'll give my thoughts on what could be going on with her. PPD is a very real thing that can last for years. I'm not a doctor, so I don't know which medication would be most effective, but I was prescribed Zoloft, and funny enough.......that's what I was taking when I crossed that inappropriate line and started talking to OM. That stuff just made me feel dead. From women I've talked to about Zoloft, it kills their sex drive. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Zoloft for having an Internet A. The foundation for a wayward mindset was already there. I was really depressed and unhappy in my M, which didn't help matters........and neither did Zoloft.

In terms of PPD, I don't know for sure but she certainly treated D1 dramatically different as a baby than S5. With S5 she ALWAYS went to him and cuddled him whereas with D1 for awhile she was making snide/mean comments, not going to her when she was crying, and sometimes scolding me for picking her up. W has admittedly gotten much better with D1 in the last few months since I called her out on it and said D1 needed more love. My mom suspects PPD, and I wonder. In terms of Zoloft, she's been on it since she was a teenager (15-20 years) and recently (late 2019 or early 2020 tried to wean off, so I also wonder if that's a factor. Her sex drive was definitely an issue for me over the last few years, and it did mean me agitated/resentful at times. I do wonder if that was the Zoloft.

Originally Posted by sandi2
You asked if she was a WW or if this was an exit affair. In some cases, I think there is an over-lap of the two. Just as with depression or other health issues, it can intensify things for her. She can be a WW and have an additional issue, too. See what I mean? If she has childhood issues, or whatever, she will probably need to see a professional for those problems. Unfortunately, the H who tries to tell his W she needs to do this or that.......is seen as a "fixer", and she's not very receptive to him fixing her. Has your W blamed you for the failure of the M, or for her unhappiness?

Yes. She blames me for the failure of the marriage. She now says things like "You've been beating me down for 5 years since S5 was born" and "I haven't been happy since we were married"...etc. That IS NOT true, but I accept it's true in her mind. Her mom did the same thing to her dad/family when W was 12; it seems like she's repeating history, despite reassuring me many times when we were dating/engaged she never wanted to do that.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I'm a little concerned about what you see in her toward the baby girl. Maybe it is due to PPD, I just don't know. Did she want to get pregnant at that time? Was it a surprise? Is she a career-centered woman, working her way up the ranks? Just wondering if it is a bit of resentment.

D1 wasn't a surprise. We weren't necessarily actively trying, but we also weren't NOT trying either, if that makes sense. As far as I know she was happy about it. We had happy pregancy pictures, and put together the nursery and all that - I didn't notice any depression with the pregnancy. W is career-centered NOW, but that's a big change from a few years ago when she was happily working part-time and even considered leaving work when S5 was born.

Originally Posted by sandi2
It's a little odd, but not uncommon, that she wouldn't want to see an IC, considering she was depressed. I can understand why she wouldn't want to bother seeing a MC, b/c the M was done, and she had another guy in her head. So, where are things now?

Maybe my post was confusing but W is going to IC. She was in counseling for many years before we met and has started to go again either late 2019 or early 2020. W truly belives in counseling, and that's why I was so perplexed she wouldn't go with me to work on our marriage, especially with 2 young children. She finally agreed in May to go to MC but it was only for 3 weeks and obvious she didn't want to really work on it - not sure if she was just there to prep for S/D or to tell people "we even tried counseling".

Current status: I'm living in our martial home with the kids, W has been living in her mother's home for a month, and plans to move into our 2nd house next week and prep it for the kids (she wants to do every other week) when they return from vacation with me and my family the following week. She's retained an attorney (as have I, now) and we were going back and forth on child custody and support, though I haven't heard back from her L on that front for two weeks now. W shows NO signs of any wavering, indecision, or even crumbs to keep me as Plan B (at least in front of me) like I've read out in other people's situations and seems to be full force towards separation & divorce. I believe I've been doing well detaching and GAL for the last month or two, but if I'm being honest there's a part of me who doesn't want his family to break up, despite the deceit.
I am very much in a similar situation as you BL42 so know what your going through man. It sounds like your feeling the way I am feeling right now where I have this level of acceptance that the marriage is over which makes me feel uneasy but this small burning sense of hope that the situation will turn around.

Of course I heard all the same sort of stuff in relation to the blame shifting onto the marriage and on to me and the famous ILYBNILWY speech. Its all scripted and it amazes me the same path that WW wifes walk. Started as EA and turned to PA.

My WW is currently out of the house and she is ploughing ahead with getting a new house rental setup so I am not holding hope that this is going to turn around any time soon if ever.
BL, you have an invaluable resource engaged in your sitch! You cannot do any better than sandi. I will be here to support you but typically do not interfere when sandi is giving out her invaluable advice.
Originally Posted by BL42
Current status: I'm living in our martial home with the kids, W has been living in her mother's home for a month, and plans to move into our 2nd house next week and prep it for the kids (she wants to do every other week) when they return from vacation with me and my family the following week. She's retained an attorney (as have I, now) and we were going back and forth on child custody and support, though I haven't heard back from her L on that front for two weeks now. W shows NO signs of any wavering, indecision, or even crumbs to keep me as Plan B (at least in front of me) like I've read out in other people's situations and seems to be full force towards separation & divorce. I believe I've been doing well detaching and GAL for the last month or two, but if I'm being honest there's a part of me who doesn't want his family to break up, despite the deceit.


None of us here want(ed) our families to break up. It take two people to make a joint decision to get married. It only takes one to make the decision to get divorced.

This is one of those counter-intuitive things. You have fully embrace the divorce path you are on. In parallel, you work your tail off to bust the divorce.

You do not roll over like a puppy dog and give her everything she wants. You do not do things to spite her. You use your logic. 50/50 parenting is best for the kids. 50/50 split of assets. 50/50 split of debt.
WMWB - Your children are older than mine, but otherwise it sounds like our sitches are very similar. Both our wives met OM at work and are moving forward (cell phone, finances, new residence) fast. It's rough but hang in there...I'm a lot better than I was several months ago.

Steve85 - The more the merrier! Feel free to chime in with advice even though sandi2 responded! It helps to hear from people, even though I haven't even met any of the folks on this board.

Ready2Change - The hardest part of this for me is losing the dream of a intact family unit, especially with my kids being so young, but to your point I need to accept I have no say in the matter.
Originally Posted by BL42
he hardest part of this for me is losing the dream of a intact family unit, especially with my kids being so young, but to your point I need to accept I have no say in the matter.


I think this is a good time to share with you one of my favorite quotes:

-Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to it.-

Your kids are going to be fine as long as you are their rock. Be the best father that you can be despite how flaky their mother becomes. Resolve to react to this crappy turn in your life by continuing to be the best father to your kids.

You cannot control her or what she does, but you have full control of yourself.
Earlier this month, when my W dropped off the kids after the 4th of July weekend, she informed me she had talked to S5 about "Mommy moving to a different house/getting a divorce" on her own without me. We had had multiple conversations including with our MC about handling it the right way with the kids and the importance of us talking to the kids together to explain the situation and even reading some kids books about S/D, so it infuriated me to no end she would proceed unilaterally and be with the the kids for 2 days without me even knowing she had that discussion. We had previously agreed to do it together closer to the end of the month! I have been extremely calm and respectful to her over the last 5 months, but lost my cool a bit that evening, telling her how "wildly inappropriate" it was and shutting the garage door before she was ready to leave. We were both together with the kids the morning before and her mom's house is only a mile away; we could've talked together! I later saw she had taken the kids books we had purchased to use with her, so I believe it was intentional/pre-planned and not "on a whim".

That incident, even more so than the affair (as odd as that sounds), got me angry and really seeing her in a different light. It's one thing to be mean to me, but how could she handle such an important situation with my S5 without consideration for the best approach for him?!? It's not right. My son was sad/crying that week and I did my best to talk to him about it, but he gets quiet, calms up, and internalizes it. I did reach out to the grade school social worker and psychologist asking about programs/support for my S5 entering Kindergarten and will do anything to get him the help

Since that incident I actually had a relatively "good" 2-3 weeks. Between having the kids and GAL'ing while they were on a week of vacation with her (albeit missing them), I thought was making great progress on detaching and being happier with life. However, this week was a set back. I got an email from my L about divorce documents and a child support letter (which the amount is higher than they previously/verbally agreed to) - each time I get something like that it's like a knife to the heart / punch in the gut. My wife also returned our EZPass and asked for our double stroller, I wrote my first two child support checks, and my parents had a conversation with my in-laws - turns our their family vacation wasn't so happy, and they're completely on my side and don't support what their daughter is doing - so all of that was really tough. It certainly feels like this week was a regression, and made me realized I'm not as far along in detachment as I had hoped. However...next week I'm taking the kids on vacation with my family so that'll be fun and hope it helps gets me back on track!


I vividly remember the day my wife unilaterally told my kids during bath time. That was over 10 years ago.
My middle child reacted emotionally the most. He is the most mentally healthy of my three children.


Validate your child(ren)'s emotional reactions. Learn to do this well now. The more professional support they have the better they will be.



I learned to channel my anger into productive activities. 95% of the time I use the word "Frustrated" for describing anger. Some people believe anger is not good. After reading many books, my opinion differs. That is why I use a less "scary" word.

More fun reading here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061092&page=all
Any more advice on detaching? W left a preschool registration document in the mailbox for me to sign with her new address, checked off that we're separated, and asking me to pay for it. Objectively I know that's what's happening, but each time there's a communication like that it hits me hard. I'm doing my best to GAL when I can - met up with some friends last night - but definitely go back and forth between feeling pretty good to getting a shot to the gut.
Detachment is a process. Not a switch you flip. Read Sandi's rules. Realize that your W is gone and an unknown creature with nefarious intentions has replaced her. You get a shot to the gut because you are still in denial. LBSs always think that their WAS will just suddenly snap out of it and when their actions do not align with that they get gut shot. Again.

A piece of paper didn't change anything. She had a new address and you were separated already. Seeing this in writing shouldn't have affected you unless you were still in denial about it. I really do not get how things like a document are worse than the reality. But I hear that all the time from LBSs. "She left me, is sleeping with another guy, and treats me like crap, but when she changed her relationship status on Facebook I couldn't handle it!" Huh? So the cheating and leaving weren't as bad as a checkbox on social media?!?

Your first step towards detachment is understanding your reality. Until you do that then you'll continue to set yourself up for further shots to the gut.
It gets easier BL. Time really does help. Like Steve says...it is a process, not a switch. RE: your kids. I was super worried about mine as well but they are doing great. Would they rather their parents were together? 100%. But kids are amazingly resilient and adaptive if you give them the right environment. Yes, your W should have followed through with what she promised but she didn’t so you just have to move on from it.

The number one thing you HAVE to remember in all this is that your kids will figure out how they are supposed to feel about this by watching you. If they see that you are doing okay and that you are friendly to their mom when you see her, they will be okay.

My kids got 100 times better with the situation when they saw that I was better with it. Unfortunately, they did see me quite emotional in the early days and that made them quite sensitive to my presentation. Even now, if I sniffle, my son is quick to ask if I am okay and accuses me of being sad. I wish they hadn’t seen me so sad in the beginning but it is what it is. Periodically, I make a point of telling them how happy I am now and that I am glad they are getting to spend more time with their dad than they used to.

I get your feelings about seeing things on paper. I had that experience too. Knowing what was happening in my head was much different from seeing it written out on paper. Again...it got a lot easier over time and now I barely think about it. You will get there too if you focus on you and let time do its thing. (((HUGS)))
I'm having a wonderful vacation with the kids in the beach, jumping over waves and digging in the sand with S5 and just being silly with D1. It's been an incredible week so far and I feel so close to them. We're making so good memories. As my sitch developed I was nervous...how was I going to handle two young children at the beach without my W??? I certainly miss our partnership - we were a well oiled machine in terms of wrangling the kids (sunscreen, toys, lunches/snacks), packing up, and getting to the beach - but to be honest it's going fairly smoothly. Now granted I have some family here pitching in and I'm physically exhausted, but we're having so much fun together. I've found doing it my way and simplifying (I.e., bringing less "stuff") has worked just fine and in some respects actually made it easier.

When we return tomorrow evening the kids are going to stay the week in "Mommy's new house" for the first time, so that's gonna be tough - I'm going to miss them. I'm planning to start running/working out each morning before work and try to meet up with friends one or two nights. Other than coordinating the kids video chatting with their mom I've had no contact with W this week, and very little in the week or two prior, so hopefully that's helping with the detachment.

Ready2Change - Thanks for sharing. Infuriating our wives would talk to the children about the sitch without us. Ok, be mad at me (for whatever reason), but don't do something the wrong way impacting the kids.

Steve85 - Thanks for the feedback and advice. I'm working on the process.

DejaVu6 - Appreciate your comments on the kids. They're certainly my #1 concern and will do anything I can to help. They have a great support system, so that'll help them.
Fantastic vacation with the kids - such fun memories and 1-on-1 bonding time with both of them.

However, this evening was rough. I came back to a house devoid of any of my W's things, and worse...for the first time I had to drop them off at "Mommy's new house" and watch as my S5 ran around in excitement showing me his and S1's new bedrooms. I held it together and was strong for the kids, hugging and kissing them goodbye, but broke down as soon as I started driving away. Possibly the worst feeling I've felt felt in my life. To Steve85's point, the cheating and deceive are awful, and objectively I knew I was coming home having to drop them off at mommy's for the first time, but actually doing it was heartbreaking. I broke down in the car on the drive home and sobbed for quite awhile afterwards. I'm going to do everything I can to stay as involved in their lives as possible, but it hurts knowing I'l be missing so many moments.

This week I'm planing to exercise in the mornings before work, meet up with friends Tuesday evening, and have a great dinner night with the kids on Wednesday.

Any suggestions on the grief of handing off the kids and missing through the week, or does it just take time?
Man that was hard to read, BL.

I remember my first time too watching as my D5 acted so excited to be staying at her mom’s new place. I was gutted.

All you can do is exactly what you’re doing. Keep it together in front of your kids and let it out when they aren’t around. It will take some time for you to establish a new routine and then it will start to get easier. Nothing but the passage of time will take this sting away.

Definitely stay busy on the days you don’t have your kids.

Hang in there BL, you’ll get past this.
Originally Posted by BL42
I broke down in the car on the drive home and sobbed for quite awhile afterwards. I'm going to do everything I can to stay as involved in their lives as possible, but it hurts knowing I'l be missing so many moments....
Any suggestions on the grief of handing off the kids and missing through the week, or does it just take time?


It is perfectly OK to express your emotions like this. Do it in a safe place. Take time to grieve the lose of the relationship.
Just not in front of "mommy". I let my kids see me cry on different occasions so they know it is normal. I would put words to the emotions...ie "I am sad".
Originally Posted by BL42
Fantastic vacation with the kids - such fun memories and 1-on-1 bonding time with both of them.

However, this evening was rough. I came back to a house devoid of any of my W's things, and worse...for the first time I had to drop them off at "Mommy's new house" and watch as my S5 ran around in excitement showing me his and S1's new bedrooms. I held it together and was strong for the kids, hugging and kissing them goodbye, but broke down as soon as I started driving away. Possibly the worst feeling I've felt felt in my life. To Steve85's point, the cheating and deceive are awful, and objectively I knew I was coming home having to drop them off at mommy's for the first time, but actually doing it was heartbreaking. I broke down in the car on the drive home and sobbed for quite awhile afterwards. I'm going to do everything I can to stay as involved in their lives as possible, but it hurts knowing I'l be missing so many moments.

This week I'm planing to exercise in the mornings before work, meet up with friends Tuesday evening, and have a great dinner night with the kids on Wednesday.

Any suggestions on the grief of handing off the kids and missing through the week, or does it just take time?



BL, while I still maintain having your spouse lie and cheat on you is worse, I never said that moments like this will not hurt. The emotional roller-coaster is real. And you have to ride it.

However, I would also encourage you to get to a place of emotional detachment as quickly as you can. In a year from now, when she comes up pregnant by OM, I would love for you to say "Congratulations!" and mean it and not even bat an eye.

This life is imperfect. You will face adversity. The better you become at adapting and being resilient the better off you will be. Not just in this instance, but in the next one that comes your way.

You got this BL!
Thornton - "Gutted" is an apt word. Thanks for sharing your experience and for the encouragement. I did put on a good face for my kids. Fortunately they have a great support system in town. Objectively I recognize it will get better over time, but it's hard to see that in the moment.

Ready2Change - I'm not sure how to balance modeling a positive attitude to my kids vs. showing them some emotions so it's OK to have them. A few weeks back when my son was crying because he missed mommy and she had told him she was moving to a new house I tried to talk to him and cried a little myself saying "it's ok to be sad" and "daddy is sad too", but he's only 5 and I don't know exactly how best to handle the situation for him.

Steve85 - I'm working on the detachment. For the last month or two, and especially since July 5th when I found out my W talked to S5 about the separation/divorce without me, I've done a great job about limiting contact and keeping it to business (kids & finances). Maybe because it's more immediate and things will resurface, but right now I'm missing the kids and loss of nuclear family more so than my W as an individual. I appreciate "You got this BL" words of encouragement. Everyone's responses on the forum do help.
Originally Posted by BL42

Steve85 - I'm working on the detachment. For the last month or two, and especially since July 5th when I found out my W talked to S5 about the separation/divorce without me, I've done a great job about limiting contact and keeping it to business (kids & finances). Maybe because it's more immediate and things will resurface, but right now I'm missing the kids and loss of nuclear family more so than my W as an individual. I appreciate "You got this BL" words of encouragement. Everyone's responses on the forum do help.


Can you explain to me, in your own words, what detachment is?
Steve85,

My understanding of detachment is moving on from needing my W in order to be happy with my own life/situation and letting go of the idea she would be my partner for the rest of our lives. Basically knowing I will be alright regardless of what happens and being OK with whatever she decides for her life.

I'm admittedly not there yet. I'm better off knowing I'll be alright than being alright with her choices - to your point above, in my current state of mind I'd still be pretty upset if she got pregnant or engaged to OM. However, I am sensing progress. I'm at a much better place than I was a few months ago when I was still reaching out to her, doing nice things, trying to save the R...etc. I'd say for 4 months (since BD on 2/15 to late June) I was full-on attachment/save the marriage mode and in the last 1-1.5 months I've been much better in that area. The GAL'ing and limiting contact to business items are tactics which has helped the detachment strategy, and I've felt my recent grief has been more about missing the kids than my wife.
Originally Posted by BL42

Ready2Change - I'm not sure how to balance modeling a positive attitude to my kids vs. showing them some emotions so it's OK to have them. A few weeks back when my son was crying because he missed mommy and she had told him she was moving to a new house I tried to talk to him and cried a little myself saying "it's ok to be sad" and "daddy is sad too", but he's only 5 and I don't know exactly how best to handle the situation for him.
Perfect response.


It is a challenge as well as a work in progress. Rasing emotionally healthy children is our goal. We all do our best. Conflicting advise, even from the experts makes things even more confusing.

I still think the most important thing LBS need to get out of this process is PERSONAL GROWTH. Focus on it. Read as many parenting books as you can in parallel to relationship books etc.
Need advice...

I'm picking up the kids from my W's grandmother later today after my IC session. She has been very close with me and my family throughout the relationship (sharing holidays, birthdays, gifts...etc.) and (I believe) thinks very highly of us. She lives in the area so pre-COVID we'd see her frequently but due to the pandemic social distancing I've only seen her once since BD (about midway through my sitch). At that time she apparently had no idea what was going on but now knows W has moved out and is pursuing divorce, though I doubt anything about the affair.

Anyway...there's a good chance she'll inquire about the situation. What is best way to handle those questions? My family would tell me to "tell my side" and "get my story out there", but is that the recommended approach in terms of DB? I'm guessing maybe not.
A simple: "I'm still hoping we can work things out.' would suffice.

Originally Posted by BL42
...W's grandmother.....there's a good chance she'll inquire about the situation. What is best way to handle those questions? My family would tell me to "tell my side" and "get my story out there", but is that the recommended approach in terms of DB? I'm guessing maybe not.



These encounters are complicated. I know what I would do, but until you understand all your options, less words and less details are almost always better.

This is definitely a great response:
Originally Posted by Steve85
A simple: "I'm still hoping we can work things out.' would suffice.
Point taken from both of you on the simpler/less words is better approach. However, it was a moot point as W was there when I arrived instead of her grandmother. My cynical side says she relieved her grandmother on purpose so we would not have a chance to interact - she had previously floated the idea of bringing the kids to me after work instead when I said I'd pick them up after my appointment - but I imagine LH19 would just call that pointless mind reading. The W encounter didn't help my detachment because she is a beautiful woman and looked great slim, tan...etc., but that feeling was fleeting as I went on to have a great evening with the kids (playground, mini-golf, dinner on the deck, bath-time, bed).

Ready2Change - You did pique my curiosity with the "I know what I would do" comment though. Care to share?
Originally Posted by BL42
Reading through an old thread and these bolded comments jumped out at me. My parents had their 40th wedding anniversary this year during my sitch whereas each of my W's parents have been married 3 times.

Did you make your W feel like your parents were better then hers because of it? Do you know for a fact your parents were more happy then her parents?
Originally Posted by BL42
While we were dating & engaged W & I had multiple conversations about how she didn't want to be like her mom and how marriage was forever with her, and that reassured me about moving forward with the relationship.

That's how she felt at the time. Feelings change.
Originally Posted by BL42
However, after BD W told me she was done and didn't have any energy or desire to work on it at all or go to MC with me, and now her mom and step-sister (who has been married multiple times w/affairs and didn't want anything to do with at one point) are both her main confidants.

Off course. WWs always seek people who see their side of things.
Originally Posted by BL42
A friend of my sister's who went through a similar situation told me my biggest mistake was marrying someone who had that family history because at a certain age the modeling/learned behavior just kicks in. I think about that from time to time and can't disagree.

Well guess what? If you didn't marry her you wouldn't have your two kids. How would that make you feel?
LH,

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by BL42
Reading through an old thread and these bolded comments jumped out at me. My parents had their 40th wedding anniversary this year during my sitch whereas each of my W's parents have been married 3 times.

Did you make your W feel like your parents were better then hers because of it? Do you know for a fact your parents were more happy then her parents?

I don't think I made her feel like my parents were better than hers, but can't know for sure. If anything she expressed frustrations with her upbringing more than me criticizing. W drove conversations about how tough the divorce was on her as a teenager, how unreliable her mother is, how she never wanted to divorce, and seemed to embrace my family more so than her own for many years. Now that's changed 180*. Maybe W did that for my benefit to make me feel comfortable marrying her - I couldn't say - but I don't think I was the driver of it.

I don't know how to measure overall happiness of our parents' lives, but do know there was major and long lasting pain for everyone involved in her parents' divorce, some of which carries on today. My parents have certainly had struggles over the years, and even went to counseling at one point, but they were able to work through it and have a long and overall happy marriage. That was my point - my model was work through issues and value the marriage whereas her modeling was call it quits when times are tough. I suspect that's a big factor in our current sitch and didn't appreciate the significance of it when we first got engaged/married.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by BL42
A friend of my sister's who went through a similar situation told me my biggest mistake was marrying someone who had that family history because at a certain age the modeling/learned behavior just kicks in. I think about that from time to time and can't disagree.

Well guess what? If you didn't marry her you wouldn't have your two kids. How would that make you feel?

No doubt. The one caveat in this entire situation is the children. I love S5 and D1 with all my heart and would never want to lose them. That said, if I had given more weighting to family background a decade ago maybe I would've had kids with a W that had a more stable upbringing who put greater value on marriage/working it out, so they wouldn't have their parents separated.
B,

No doubt her upbringing plays apart on your sitch. I experienced the same thing. I had doubts myself due to family concerns. My ex's dad had an A when she was young and moved out for awhile. She always said that was the worst time of her life. So what does she do? The same thing to her kids. My point is that it is a complete waste of your time and energy trying to make any sense of it.
Originally Posted by BL42
Ready2Change - You did pique my curiosity with the "I know what I would do" comment though. Care to share?


See how the art of being indirect is very effective. wink I would do what PuppyDogTails would do. I would blend in some AllenA and Coach, and then RobX. But I am not you and I am not advising you to do what I would do.


Each of these posters had different approaches that were effective. PuppyDogTails, Coach, AllenA, GucciLoafers, RobX.


I posted a link to you earlier and said you should dig deep into it. You need a good understanding of effective options on how to respond in many different future interactions. That is part of your homework.




Ready2Change,

I read every Puppy Dog Tails comment in your 11 "Quotes Found on Divorce Busting" threads this weekend, but when I clicked on all his posts the site just spins - maybe too many? It seems he's a proponent of affair exposure. I seriously considered that approach 3-4 months ago. In early April as I had more and more tangible evidence of the affair I planned to expose it by telling/emailing her mom, dad, best friend (the three of whom were her closest confidants of the sitch, but didn't know about the OM), her work (they are co-workers and it was happening in the office during work hours), as well as OM's wife. However, I spoke to my lawyer that morning and he said "sure, do that if you want a it to be over and get a divorce", so I backed off.

The problem is there is a lot of conflicting information out there. Some resources advocate exposure to kill the affair, saying your marriage can survive your spouse being angry at you but it can't survive a third person, and other sites promote telling as few people as possible to make it easier for your spouse to come back to the marriage once the affair ends, which it ultimately will. When I first found out about the affair I researched "average length of affairs" and saw 3-18 months and naively thought "OK, we could be threw this by May". Now, after 6 months and a lot of reading this forum I realize how stupid that was.

In hindsight I wish I had gone ahead with the exposure plan 4 months ago. I would've been no worse off than I am now, and possibly better. And at the very least would've gotten more of the truth out. Her dad & stepmom now know the full extent of the affair as does her brother (through her dad). They're 100% on my side at this point but can't change things. She claims her mom and best friend know as well, though I believe she just told them she had a brief EA rather than the full story (her mom wouldn't care either way, but the truth may have swayed her bf).

I plan to read through the 11 Quotes threads again and be on the look out for Coach, AllenA, GucciLoafers and RobX. Thanks for the advice.
Six Months Since Bomb Day

Yesterday was 6 months. It seems surreal, almost as if this isn't my real life. I can't believe it's been half a year. The days and weeks in the first several months seemed to take years, and now all of a sudden it's been 6 months - so much has changed in my life so quickly. If someone had told me just 7 months ago (when we were on a family vacation in Disney World with good friends) that my wife would have an affair, move out, and file a divorce action against me I would not have believed them.

Reflecting on my actions since BD...I did some things right (weekly IC, leaning on close family & friends for support, being the absolute best dad possible for my kids), and a lot of things very wrong (begging, pleading, reasoning/logic, gifts, spying, relationship talks, pressure...etc.). I read and viewed so much online since day one but didn't find DR book and dive into DB forum until more recently. The breakdown of the timeline is roughly 4.5 months of anti-DB behavior and 1.5 months now of good DB'ing. I have no idea if my marriage would be in a better spot today had I DB'd from the start but believe it would've sped up the process getting into better place for myself.

Although I missed my kids, I had a fantastic weekend without them and crushed it GAL'ing. I did yard work (mowing & weeding), house work (laundry, dishes, groceries), exercise (walking, running, and push-ups), socialized (friends house for a bonfire & beers), and read a good number of threads on this forum. Probably the best action was to go through the house and clear out a ton of stuff I don't need/want, organize the kids' clothes and donate things that no longer fit, clear out the basement. W moved her things out during my vacation with the kids so I now have the freedom to change the house and make it more my own - very therapeutic. I accomplished so much this weekend; it felt good, and fitting for 6 months since DB. The next week I don't have the kids I plan to paint and redo the master bedroom.

The kids are doing alright, but S5 has regressed a little. He initially had upset stomachs and even threw up once. That has subsided but now he's doing baby talk, showing some anger/sadness, and frequently saying he misses mommy. I'm taking him to his kindergarten screening tomorrow, so hopefully that goes alright. I'm sure they'll be resilient over time, but it's tough to see in the short-term.

I still have a long way to go - there are triggers where I break down (dropping the kids off at "mommy's new house" for the first time) or twinges of attachment (she looks so beautiful during exchanges) - but there's no question I'm in a much better place mentally and physically than I was several months ago, and it's nice to feel that progress.

Thanks for everyone who's chimed in on my sitch so far, I appreciate it! It's so helpful to hear from people who have experience. We'll see what the next 6 months brings!
BL. I see the title of your post is "Don't Want Divorce".

BL, I encourage you to not think of your sitch in those terms. It has been 6 months. She is moved out and (presumbably) still in a PA.

What would make you want a D? I mean, if my W was in a PA and moved out, after 6 months I would be questioning how much longer I would wait around for her.

Remember, D doesn't mean never Ring. Lots of LBSs get this wrong. D is a step in the process. If your STBXW ever wants to R with you, being D'd will not prevent that from happening.

Have you spoken to a D attorney? It was one of the best things I did in my sitch. It let me realize that the D process wasn't something that was going to kill me if that was the way we ended up going.
Steve85,

The title of the thread reflects a short summary of my sitch at the time I joined the forum. I don't want to keep changing it for consistency sake so people can follow along. Honestly? I still don't really want a divorce because I'd rather my family not break up, but I'm a lot further mentally than a month or two ago in accepting it's probably going to happen and it won't be so bad. Point taken that D doesn't necessarily mean no R'ing, but it does seem (and the statistics back it up) that with every major step the likelihood of R decreases. (I.e., the vast majority of separations lead to divorce, and only a small percentage of divorcees remarry). However, like I said...I've made progress with the idea that it won't be so bad and could lead to a good life.

Yes, I consulted with a lawyer in early March just a few weeks after BD to understand my rights with the children in case my wife asked me to move out. It was certainly reassuring to hear that 1) I would almost certainly get joint custody and most likely 50/50 time with my children, and 2) fortunately we reside in an equitable distribution state as opposed to a community property/equal distribution state, as I had a significant amount of pre-marital assets whereas W was in debt, so I'll keep a large percentage of our current net worth. I've since officially retained that attorney. He specializes in family law/separation/divorce, is one of the top in that field in the area, and is currently advising me through the child custody/support negotiations.

Originally Posted by BL42
The problem is there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
That is the truth. The hard part is trying to determine which way to go. In your case, it sounds like others already know the truth. She can't spin a new lie to them later.

I used Divorce Remedy as a foundation for my personal growth. Busting the divorce is one big complex onion to peel. You do many things in parallel. You set her free. You forgive her. You command respect. You project confidence. You set and enforce your boundaries. You make positive changes to your behavior. You reinvent yourself. You interact with her different. You respond to her different. You interact with everyone else different. You learn new parenting skills. You become happy alone.
Originally Posted by BL42
Steve85,

The title of the thread reflects a short summary of my sitch at the time I joined the forum. I don't want to keep changing it for consistency sake so people can follow along. Honestly? I still don't really want a divorce because I'd rather my family not break up, but I'm a lot further mentally than a month or two ago in accepting it's probably going to happen and it won't be so bad. Point taken that D doesn't necessarily mean no R'ing, but it does seem (and the statistics back it up) that with every major step the likelihood of R decreases. (I.e., the vast majority of separations lead to divorce, and only a small percentage of divorcees remarry). However, like I said...I've made progress with the idea that it won't be so bad and could lead to a good life.

Yes, I consulted with a lawyer in early March just a few weeks after BD to understand my rights with the children in case my wife asked me to move out. It was certainly reassuring to hear that 1) I would almost certainly get joint custody and most likely 50/50 time with my children, and 2) fortunately we reside in an equitable distribution state as opposed to a community property/equal distribution state, as I had a significant amount of pre-marital assets whereas W was in debt, so I'll keep a large percentage of our current net worth. I've since officially retained that attorney. He specializes in family law/separation/divorce, is one of the top in that field in the area, and is currently advising me through the child custody/support negotiations.


The problem with the "RECONCILE OR BUST!" mentality is that it is unrealistic. It takes two to work on and fix a marriage. It only takes one to bail and get a D. So when a LBS is stuck at "IF I GET A D MY WORLD WILL END!" they never move forward. And then there is the whole Captain Obvious things. Of course you don't want a D, you wouldn't have searched and found this forum if you did!!

Further, when you DB from the stance of getting a D is the worst possible outcome, then it will really hold you back on what you should be doing. We see LBSs whose main goal is to avoid a D at all costs, and 6 months, 12 months, even 2 years later they are still stuck where they were on BD! It is a horrible place to be.

So BL, think about it logically. D is not the worst thing in the world. Sure you don't want it, but you also don't want cancer. Sometimes life throws things at you that you don't want. I remember when my grandmother died, one of my best friends didn't come to the funeral home or funeral. His dad said to me afterward, "Tim said sorry he can't be here, but he doesn't like funerals." REALLY!?! I thought we all loved funerals and couldn't wait for the next one!

The point to all this is that you need to look at your new life ahead of you with excitement. Joy. And realize that you will be happy whether you R or D. And I can tell you from experience, that R is not a cakewalk. If your goal is to be out of pain well Ring probably isn't going to be the way you get there without a lot of really hard work.

Note, the above is as much for other LBSs as it is for you, BL. You got this man! You are going to be fine!
Ready2Change,

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by BL42
The problem is there is a lot of conflicting information out there.
That is the truth. The hard part is trying to determine which way to go. In your case, it sounds like others already know the truth. She can't spin a new lie to them later.

Yes. My family and friends and her dad/step-mom and brother know. Her mom and best friend know to a lessor extent, but sh'es probably downplayed it. Not sure if it's spread too much to hinder a potential R but it is what it is at this point. It is important to me that my side of the story get out if we never R. Knowing where we are now I do wonder if a same-day exposure back in early April (including her employer) would've been a better approach - who knows.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
I used Divorce Remedy as a foundation for my personal growth. Busting the divorce is one big complex onion to peel. You do many things in parallel. You set her free. You forgive her. You command respect. You project confidence. You set and enforce your boundaries. You make positive changes to your behavior. You reinvent yourself. You interact with her different. You respond to her different. You interact with everyone else different. You learn new parenting skills. You become happy alone.

This is a great list of things to do in parallel. I've re-read it several times already and will focus on them. Great advice, thanks!
Steve85,

Originally Posted by Steve85
So BL, think about it logically. D is not the worst thing in the world. Sure you don't want it, but you also don't want cancer. Sometimes life throws things at you that you don't want. I remember when my grandmother died, one of my best friends didn't come to the funeral home or funeral. His dad said to me afterward, "Tim said sorry he can't be here, but he doesn't like funerals." REALLY!?! I thought we all loved funerals and couldn't wait for the next one!

The point to all this is that you need to look at your new life ahead of you with excitement. Joy. And realize that you will be happy whether you R or D. And I can tell you from experience, that R is not a cakewalk. If your goal is to be out of pain well Ring probably isn't going to be the way you get there without a lot of really hard work.

Note, the above is as much for other LBSs as it is for you, BL. You got this man! You are going to be fine!

I hear what you're saying and logically you're right. There are worst things. My kids are in health and we have a wonderful relationship. Like I said...I recognize I'm not 100% there and still have a lot of work to do, but as my IC would say..."it's a process!" The past weekend (6 months) of clearing out the house and knocking things off my to-do list really helped. There's a noticeable difference in myself over the last month and a half, and it feels good.

Thanks for the "You got this man! You are going to be fine!". It's amazing how encouragement from people online you haven't even met can help. :-)
Originally Posted by BL42
...would've been a better approach - who knows.
None of us know. We just do our best with what we know. Arm yourself with information so you can make better informed decisions as you move forward. There is a small window of opportunity when things are effective.

If you are like most of us, you had patterns of interactions with your spouse that were pretty predictable. Anything you do that is not predictable MAY peak some curiosity. These are the 180s. If you typically argued your point, flip it and listen and validate her feelings. Easier to practice this with others. If you dressed sloppy, change up your style. If you were a talker, STFU and listen. If you were a listener, learn to be the guy with the stories that people want to hear.


The only rule is there are no rules. Do what works. Sometimes I have to be direct to be effective. Other times completely indirect. Other times somewhere in the middle.

I can be completely overt in what I am doing, other times completely covert.

Understanding all the different counter-intuitive ways to attract is important. We all say it different ways here and have our own perceptions of what that means.

Drop all the negative behaviors that are unattractive and pick up new behaviors that woman find attractive. Again, these are most likely not what you believe. You have to rewire your brain. It takes focused effort.
The kids and I had a great week together, especially over the weekend - going to new playgrounds, swimming in the pool, shopping for sports equipment, and having friends from the neighborhood over for pizza.

Yesterday evening I had to take the kids to "mommy's new house" for the second time. D1 had wanted "tubby time" in the evening and was laughing and playing in the bath, which was great, but I had to be cognizant of the time to get her out, dried off, dressed, and in the car for the transition and thought to myself this would be easier if were were all a family and she could stay in her home. Apparently S5 told my mom / his grandma he doesn't understand why we have to do this back and forth and that it's "too complicated", but hopefully he'll adjust over time. The drop off itself was easier on me than the first one (two weeks ago). W & I spoke briefly about logistics for S5's activities, but kept it brief. I focused on giving the kids a happy transition, chasing them around the yard and hugging/spinning/twirling them goodbye. I still felt sad and lonely afterwards, but no breakdown or even tears in the car on the drive home this time.

This week in terms of GAL'ing...tomorrow evening a dozen buddies are getting together for a lobster and steak night, and on Wednesday I'll have the kids for dinner. I'd also like to do some additional work around the house but haven't prepped/planned for that as much as I'd hoped, and I need to find some fun plans for the weekend.
Sounds great BL!!! Yes...S5 will adjust over time as long as he sees you doing the same. Good start. Have fun with your buddies. smile

Keep it up. Each week gets easier. Enjoy the kids when you have them, miss them when they are gone. Enjoy your time alone when they are gone.

Best not to linger at the parenting exchange. Be dressed sharp, smell good, and have something "pulling" you away.
DejaVu6 / Ready2Change - Thanks for the encouragement and advice!
One thing I'm struggling with is next steps...

For 6 months there was so much turmoil (BD, begging/convincing/trying to "nice her back", finding out about and then following along w/the affair while living under the same roof, adjusting work schedule for MC/IC/Doctors appts...etc.). It got a bit easier when she started staying at her mom's house in June/July, and now this month she's completely moved out into our other house and that has actually brought me a big sense of relief and peace on the one hand and also a lot more free time.

So...now what? Of course when I have my kids it's 100% about them and I plan to continue my GAL'ing (exercise, house improvements, friends), but how do I move on with life?

Unlike so many situations on this board I'm not getting ANY ambivalence, signs of wavering, or even minor temp checks from W. I've moved communications about the kids to email, don't text/email/call about anything else, and keep kid drop-offs brief.

There are a few women I've encountered that would have potential but I've held back on any moves because I'm still married. That seems to be a controversial topic on the board. Some people say "go for it, enjoy life and if it makes W afraid to lose you so be it" and others take the "Don't do it. You're not in the right mindset and it will complicate any R potential". It feels odd to even contemplate but then W was (probably is still) having another relationship.

Maybe all this is really a "Do I stand for my marriage" question. Several months ago I was firmly in the "Stand" camp, but half a year in I'm not sure at all. There's no way I could wait it out 4-5 years like others on here.

Any thoughts or advice?
Originally Posted by BL42
There are a few women I've encountered that would have potential but I've held back on any moves because I'm still married.

Who are these women? What is their status? Do they know you are married and are desperately trying to get your W back?

Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe all this is really a "Do I stand for my marriage" question. Several months ago I was firmly in the "Stand" camp, but half a year in I'm not sure at all. There's no way I could wait it out 4-5 years like others on here.
How long can you wait?

Sounds to me like you got some work to do my friend.
LH19,

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by BL42
There are a few women I've encountered that would have potential but I've held back on any moves because I'm still married.
Who are these women? What is their status? Do they know you are married and are desperately trying to get your W back?

One I recently met hanging out with mutual friends. She's a couple years older, attractive, no kids, and going through a divorce herself. She knows about my situation. The other I've known for quite some time, is a few years younger with two kids and also very attractive, and may suspect something is up with my marriage. I've chatted/texted with both in a friendly manner, nothing romantic or serious - I've held back because of my sitch - just starting to wonder six months in if I should pursue dating. I wouldn't say "desperately trying to get my W back" is accurate anymore. Certainly a few months ago, but not now (unless you think I'm not being honest with myself).

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe all this is really a "Do I stand for my marriage" question. Several months ago I was firmly in the "Stand" camp, but half a year in I'm not sure at all. There's no way I could wait it out 4-5 years like others on here.
How long can you wait?
Sounds to me like you got some work to do my friend.

I don't know. That's the question, isn't it? It's already been 6 months; I know I can't wait several years.

Agreed I have work to do, but do you have anything specific in mind?
Originally Posted by BL42
(unless you think I'm not being honest with myself).

I don't think you are being honest with yourself. You are on this site and you dug out an old thread from a guy who almost reconned but didn't. That leads me to believe you are looking for the magic bullet so to speak.
Originally Posted by BL42
Agreed I have work to do, but do you have anything specific in mind?

Are you owning and working on your downfall in the marriage? Are you in IC? Reading self books or are you spending all your time texting other women? We have quite a few people come through here and try a few tactics and then move on and date and marry other people only to be back years later. If you are not willing to stand for many months if not years you mine as well file for D now and move on.
You'll have to decide for yourself if dating, or just having women friends, while still technically married is against your moral code.

Whatever you decide you'll have to live with. I will only suggest that if you do decide to find new company that you don't go around flaunting it. You probably aren't ready for a true R anyways.

You're currently not texting or calling your W, email comms for kids, and GAL. That doesn't sound like you're desperately trying to get her back like LH says. Normally he is pretty helpful tho so resist the temptation to ignore everything he says from here out haha.
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
That doesn't sound like you're desperately trying to get her back like LH says. Normally he is pretty helpful tho so resist the temptation to ignore everything he says from here out haha.


Yo OB I am sticking with my assessment. I think the ladies are to make her jealous. Again I don't think you dig out 8 year old threads if you are not desperately seeking the silver bullet. Think Curtis.
Originally Posted by BL42

There are a few women I've encountered that would have potential but I've held back on any moves because I'm still married. That seems to be a controversial topic on the board. Some people say "go for it, enjoy life and if it makes W afraid to lose you so be it" and others take the "Don't do it. You're not in the right mindset and it will complicate any R potential". It feels odd to even contemplate but then W was (probably is still) having another relationship.


Potential for what?

You have to decide when you are single again. Is it now? Is it after a certain time period? Is it after the ink is dry on the divorce papers? Is it one year of separation?

If you are married, you behave like a married man. If you are single, you behave like a single man. You can challenge your current beliefs about what each of these means.


You have lots of personal growth to do right now. That is what this phase of the process is about. There are changes to your beliefs and behaviors that need to happen. These changes need to be learned and practiced. You will need to decided with who you want to practice and when.

What skills can you practice with these woman that are in alignment with your core values and beliefs?
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
That doesn't sound like you're desperately trying to get her back like LH says. Normally he is pretty helpful tho so resist the temptation to ignore everything he says from here out haha.


Yo OB I am sticking with my assessment. I think the ladies are to make her jealous. Again I don't think you dig out 8 year old threads if you are not desperately seeking the silver bullet. Think Curtis.

I have an emotional attachment to the ItHurts thread. Twas the first one I read here and it is quite a story. And yes I kinda get that too but he is faking it til he makes it then.
That was one of the most frustrating threads of all time. He refused to make a move after 8 months to see where he stood.
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by BL42
(unless you think I'm not being honest with myself).

I don't think you are being honest with yourself. You are on this site and you dug out an old thread from a guy who almost reconned but didn't. That leads me to believe you are looking for the magic bullet so to speak.


That may be. I do sense a big change in my outlook over the last two months, but I'm sure there will be more roller-coaster emotions going forward. We're "only" 6 months in at this point, so I have no doubt I'm not full detached.

Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by BL42
Agreed I have work to do, but do you have anything specific in mind?

Are you owning and working on your downfall in the marriage? Are you in IC? Reading self books or are you spending all your time texting other women? We have quite a few people come through here and try a few tactics and then move on and date and marry other people only to be back years later. If you are not willing to stand for many months if not years you mine as well file for D now and move on.

I started IC a week and a half after BD, and have been going weekly/bi-weekly since. I've read several self-help books, and am reading this forum extensively to learn about others peoples' sitches and posting/journaling for advice on my own. In terms of owning and working my own issues, I've gone back and forth many times over the last 6 months as to whether I could've done better to help/fix things (be less critical on spending and kids' nutrition/screen time, less frustrated/resentful about sex life-NGS) and this whole situation is "on me" or whether it's more my W's and her past and medication. There are times I've had emotional self-doubts, but from a logical perspective think it's more on my wife's issues. I'm not the horrible person she's making me out to be.
LH19/ovrrnbw,

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
That doesn't sound like you're desperately trying to get her back like LH says. Normally he is pretty helpful tho so resist the temptation to ignore everything he says from here out haha.


Yo OB I am sticking with my assessment. I think the ladies are to make her jealous. Again I don't think you dig out 8 year old threads if you are not desperately seeking the silver bullet. Think Curtis.

I have an emotional attachment to the ItHurts thread. Twas the first one I read here and it is quite a story. And yes I kinda get that too but he is faking it til he makes it then.


I don't believe I'm "desperately trying to get her back" at this point, so would have to lean more towards ovrrnbw's assessment on that than LH19's. I'm only in contact via email regarding the kids' logistics, took the pictures off the walls, redoing the house, haven't reached emotionally or initiated R talks. It's been that way for two months now. I fully admit I'm not "over it" and fully detached, but I'm working on it.

I'm reading this forum extensively. I wasn't necessarily digging up an 8yo thread on purpose. I used the "Who's Online" feature to see what others are reading and suggestions people make in other threads and pick ones which seem interesting or relevant. Actually the ItHurts thread was last updated a year and a half ago. You read a dozen threads and years of someone's life and it'd be interesting to see where things landed.

But, overall point taken - I may not be as detached as I believe and haven't really been tested much yet by the W.

Originally Posted by LH19
That was one of the most frustrating threads of all time. He refused to make a move after 8 months to see where he stood.


Couldn't agree more! It was frustrating to read through even years later. You were completely right btw - he should've been more aggressive. If she invited him to bed, let him see her naked, and had him massaging her on three different occasions...make a move! If rejected after all that, walk.
Ready2Change,

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Potential for what?

You have to decide when you are single again. Is it now? Is it after a certain time period? Is it after the ink is dry on the divorce papers? Is it one year of separation?

If you are married, you behave like a married man. If you are single, you behave like a single man. You can challenge your current beliefs about what each of these means.


You have lots of personal growth to do right now. That is what this phase of the process is about. There are changes to your beliefs and behaviors that need to happen. These changes need to be learned and practiced. You will need to decided with who you want to practice and when.

What skills can you practice with these woman that are in alignment with your core values and beliefs?


I'm not sure how to answer your questions - currently trying to figure it out. I don't think it's moral to date while married. I never so much as flirted with another woman since my wife was my girlfriend let alone fiance or wife. That said, it's been 6 months since we told me she didn't want to work on our marriage and I found out was having an affair and she since moved out and filed a divorce action against me, so...at some point I have to move on. Not sure if 6 months is right, but don't think it's 4 years, and don't want to be the one stuck waiting for a lengthy legal situation to play out.

I don't know the right answer. Definitely working on the personal growth.

I also think people jumped on the "women" portion of my post, whereas to me it was a more higher level next steps / should I stand or not question.
Just received an email from W regarding upcoming schedule for the kids. We've had to have a number of these recently and it gives me a headache to think of all the logistical items this situation will present over the next 20 years...

How do I balance my desire to spend more time with my children with no enabling her to cake eat / rely on me to cover for her constantly changing schedule? My father told me "the answer must be based on what you think is best for the children, not what is best for her", and he nailed it - he's absolutely right, but if I cover everything and take on more for the kids doesn't that also mask the consequences of her actions/decisions? Also, do I offer to cover but stand firm on my scheduled days, or do I agree to switch off as I may need flexibility in the future?

Any feedback/advice would be appreciated:

Originally Posted by W's Logistics Email & My Proposed Response
I have Friday 9/11 off so if it’s okay with You I would like to spend the day with the kids
Sure, no problem - it's your week.

and then if possible bring them back to you at 7p and have theme spend the night with you bc I have to work at 3a Saturday 9/12 for Go Live. I work until 330pm and then would pick them up, keep them overnight and then bring them back to you Sunday at 230p bc I have to work 3p-11p Sunday. If you are okay with this do you mind giving up your night with them during the week?
Why don't I just take them for the weekend? That way they won't have to bounce around all over the place and you can focus on go-live.

Also, I have Tuesday 9/15 off which would be S5’s first day actually going into school and I would like to be there in the morning when he leaves
Of course. You should be there to see S5 off for his first day off to Kindergarten - it's a big milestone!

and then are you okay if I have D1 for the day and S5 after school until 7p since Tuesday’s are my evenings with them anyways?
I plan to pick S5 up from school so I can hear all about his first day, but you're welcome to be there for him as well. I'm fine with you spending the day with D1 and spending the afternoon/evening with both of them.

I am off on Monday 9/21 for D1's (soon to be D2) birthday and work 7-330 the rest of the week. So whoever’s day it is to watch the kids I will be dropping them off and or needing them to come to my house by 630am.
You can drop them off at my place in the mornings and I'll take care of them before school/our parents. That's pretty early though - they're welcome to stay overnight here if that's better for the kids/easier for you - don't want S5 to be too tired for school.

NOTE: the "go-live" referred to in the email is related to a special project for my W's job for which she started working directly with AP. Originally they started together in the office, but due to COVID the team transitioned to working remotely due to COVID so most days they're not physically working together now. W told me in May it was over with AP, but I suspect that was a lie and they're are communication through work and other means.
Originally Posted by BL42
How do I balance my desire to spend more time with my children with no enabling her to cake eat / rely on me to cover for her constantly changing schedule? My father told me "the answer must be based on what you think is best for the children, not what is best for her", and he nailed it - he's absolutely right, but if I cover everything and take on more for the kids doesn't that also mask the consequences of her actions/decisions? Also, do I offer to cover but stand firm on my scheduled days, or do I agree to switch off as I may need flexibility in the future?

Over time you won't give a fuch about consequences of actions/decisions and will just enjoy the extra time with your kids. You have to be flexible if you expect her to be flexible.

I feel really sorry for LBS with really young children because it definitely makes things more difficult.
Originally Posted by BL42
Just received an email from W regarding upcoming schedule for the kids. We've had to have a number of these recently and it gives me a headache to think of all the logistical items this situation will present over the next 20 years...
Logistics gets smoothed out over time.


Quote
My father told me "the answer must be based on what you think is best for the children, not what is best for her",
Matches my tag line. What is best for the children is equal and frequent contact with both parents.


Quote
Also, do I offer to cover but stand firm on my scheduled days, or do I agree to switch off as I may need flexibility in the future?
Be extremely grateful that she is negotiating these things several weeks in advance.

Be flexible. Exceptions to the normal parenting plan happen.



Quote

Any feedback/advice would be appreciated:

I believe your response is fine. Less words is typically better. I go for reducing confusion and getting clarification during these type of exchanges. Here are some other options:

Originally Posted by W's Logistics Email & My Proposed Response
I have Friday 9/11 off so if it’s okay with You I would like to spend the day with the kids
Sure, no problem - it's your week.

and then if possible bring them back to you at 7p and have theme spend the night with you bc I have to work at 3a Saturday 9/12 for Go Live.
yes. 7p works for me.

I work until 330pm and then would pick them up, keep them overnight and then bring them back to you Sunday at 230p bc I have to work 3p-11p Sunday.
yes. 230p also works for me.


If you are okay with this do you mind giving up your night with them during the week?
Why don't I just take them for the weekend? That way they won't have to bounce around all over the place and you can focus on go-live.
What night?

Also, I have Tuesday 9/15 off which would be S5’s first day actually going into school and I would like to be there in the morning when he leaves
Of course. You should be there to see S5 off for his first day off to Kindergarten - it's a big milestone!

and then are you okay if I have D1 for the day and S5 after school until 7p since Tuesday’s are my evenings with them anyways?
I plan to pick S5 up from school so I can hear all about his first day, but you're welcome to be there for him as well. I'm fine with you spending the day with D1 and spending the afternoon/evening with both of them.

I am off on Monday 9/21 for D1's (soon to be D2) birthday and work 7-330 the rest of the week. So whoever’s day it is to watch the kids I will be dropping them off and or needing them to come to my house by 630am.
You can drop them off at my place in the mornings and I'll take care of them before school/our parents. That's pretty early though - they're welcome to stay overnight here if that's better for the kids/easier for you - don't want S5 to be too tired for school.

Quote
One thing I'm struggling with is next steps...


Do you mean the next steps in getting your W back?

Quote
So...now what? Of course when I have my kids it's 100% about them and I plan to continue my GAL'ing (exercise, house improvements, friends), but how do I move on with life?


I think the only way you can truly move on with life is to emotionally drop your WW. As long as you hold tight to that rope you have tied to her.......the harder it's going to be for you to move on and be happy. That's why we talk so much about detaching emotionally. You can try, but as long as you are attached to her and how she's living her life......it will work in preventing your progress in your own life and happiness. Look, I realize we are not saying what you really want to hear. I think most LBH's would prefer a bullet point list of action steps.

I'm going to give you the number one thing all successful board members have told us that works! It's up to you to believe it or ignore it. Ready? Getting a life! I mean, really enjoying life! At first, you have to make yourself get out there and have fun. GAL is more than just exercising and seeing friends occasionally. To me, cleaning or house improvements are not GAL. That stuff is work. Don't confuse GAL with finding something to keep you busy. smile Did you give up a favorite hobby, sports, or activity when you got married? This is your opportunity to do what YOU want, without having to consider to a spouse's wants. So get out there and have fun!

Here's something else I suggest you focus on. Get the book about no more mr. nice guy, and read every bit of it. It's not long. Be open to what it says. Tell us if you see yourself anywhere in the book. I don't want you to think it's not a big deal being a nice guy. Here's the thing, along with the NGS, comes passivity, and a woman can't stand passivity in a man. With that said, your first thought may be in questioning how you can apply this......since you and W are separated. My suggestion is to start the application in your daily life, with your coworkers, friends, relatives, or the person on the street. You will understand what I mean, once you read the book.

Self confidence is another trait women admire in men. If you are lacking self confidence, then read material on the subject of how to gain it. These are examples of how you work on you, as a man. You've got to work on the man, before you can work on a relationship. You might be amazed how this all is connected to NGS. Perhaps you don't see yourself having a problem with anything. Please read NMMNG, anyway. It won't hurt, and it just might help.

Work on keeping your contact with WW shorter. Don't sound rude, but you are currently a bit too wordy. Also, your anger seeps through some of your responses to her. Not bad, but it's something you can adjust. Understand, I'm not saying you have no right to be angry. You have every right! However, it's not serving you well, the way you use it toward your WW in your responses about keeping the kids, changing days/times, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it sounds as if you are trying to make an indirect point with her.......but it comes off sounding like a dig at her. So, it doesn't work in your favor. There's a right way and a wrong way.

If you'll notice, I previously referred to "successful" board members. That's b/c I feel many newcomers only see success coming one way.......to bust the divorce. Although we are called the DB board, success comes to those who grow as individuals, and to the point of enjoying their life.......with or without their spouse. Let me give you the link to a LBH who has posted recently about his life. I think you may find it encouraging.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62888&Number=2891605#Post2891605

((hugs))
Sandi2,

Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
One thing I'm struggling with is next steps...
Do you mean the next steps in getting your W back?

Actually, I didn't. There was so much tension since BD and now that W actually moved into our other house it feels like there is a big release where I'm not walking on egg shells, so it was more of a question as to whether I should even bother standing for my marriage. 6 months in already of the lies and deceit, and knowing I can't do this for several years like others. Of course I'm there 100% for my kids and am trying to GAL, but the question was more what's the right point to "stop standing".

Originally Posted by sandi2
I'm going to give you the number one thing all successful board members have told us that works! It's up to you to believe it or ignore it. Ready? Getting a life! I mean, really enjoying life! At first, you have to make yourself get out there and have fun. GAL is more than just exercising and seeing friends occasionally. To me, cleaning or house improvements are not GAL. That stuff is work. Don't confuse GAL with finding something to keep you busy. smile Did you give up a favorite hobby, sports, or activity when you got married? This is your opportunity to do what YOU want, without having to consider to a spouse's wants. So get out there and have fun!


Will do! I've been proud of the home improvements, but point taken - I'm trying to get out and do more things. Playing golf, signed up as a sub for a soccer league...etc.

Originally Posted by sandi2
Here's something else I suggest you focus on. Get the book about no more mr. nice guy, and read every bit of it. It's not long. Be open to what it says. Tell us if you see yourself anywhere in the book. I don't want you to think it's not a big deal being a nice guy. Here's the thing, along with the NGS, comes passivity, and a woman can't stand passivity in a man. With that said, your first thought may be in questioning how you can apply this......since you and W are separated. My suggestion is to start the application in your daily life, with your coworkers, friends, relatives, or the person on the street. You will understand what I mean, once you read the book.

Self confidence is another trait women admire in men. If you are lacking self confidence, then read material on the subject of how to gain it. These are examples of how you work on you, as a man. You've got to work on the man, before you can work on a relationship. You might be amazed how this all is connected to NGS. Perhaps you don't see yourself having a problem with anything. Please read NMMNG, anyway. It won't hurt, and it just might help.

I read NMMNG a month ago at the recommendation of this board. I could related to some of it, but not others. I'll have to re-read it. Oh, and I wasn't lacking self-confidence...until 6 months ago! LOL. Any other book suggestions?

Originally Posted by sandi2
Work on keeping your contact with WW shorter. Don't sound rude, but you are currently a bit too wordy. Also, your anger seeps through some of your responses to her. Not bad, but it's something you can adjust. Understand, I'm not saying you have no right to be angry. You have every right! However, it's not serving you well, the way you use it toward your WW in your responses about keeping the kids, changing days/times, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it sounds as if you are trying to make an indirect point with her.......but it comes off sounding like a dig at her. So, it doesn't work in your favor. There's a right way and a wrong way.


Interesting. I didn't initially view it as anger seeping through, but in re-reading it you might have a point. I'll work on shortening the response - Ready2Change made the same suggestion.

Originally Posted by sandi2
If you'll notice, I previously referred to "successful" board members. That's b/c I feel many newcomers only see success coming one way.......to bust the divorce. Although we are called the DB board, success comes to those who grow as individuals, and to the point of enjoying their life.......with or without their spouse. Let me give you the link to a LBH who has posted recently about his life. I think you may find it encouraging.

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62888&Number=2891605#Post2891605

((hugs))

Thanks for the link. I had read through JosephS's thread awhile back, and glad to see his update is so positive. Question though, and it goes to my "next steps" question and some previous posts...I'm not judging by any means but JosephS's BD was March 6th and by June (just 3-4 months later) he was dating other women. I'm 6 months in. Should I do the same if there are opportunities or should I hold back because I'm still technically married. It seems like a controversial topic on the board.

Sandi2 - You responded to my thread back in July and I answered them. Just curious if you read those and had any thoughts?
Quote
I read NMMNG a month ago at the recommendation of this board. I could related to some of it, but not others. I'll have to re-read it. Oh, and I wasn't lacking self-confidence...until 6 months ago! LOL. Any other book suggestions?


Okay, I had forgotten you read it. Not every LBH has NGS. The majority of LBH's I've seen with WW's, have been men with NGS. I've also noticed they are often in SSM, and that issue goes hand in hand with the loss of respect the W has for her H, thereby, losing sexual attraction for him. It isn't a problem in every situation, it's just very common.

I think every LBS's self confidence takes a nosedive when they are rejected and betrayed by their spouse. Discovering an affair must feel like the ultimate kick in your heart. If your confidence level was healthy before the bomb dropped, you can get it back. IMHO, guys who are co-dependent attach their self value to the W and the marriage. If none of this describes you, then you are blessed. smile

I don't have any particular books to suggest, and we have to be very careful referring anything other than DB, due to board policies. The marriage help books you previously listed won't help your current situation. However, you can take in what it teaches so that you can apply it when you have reconciled, or in another relationship. Sadly, I don't think many men read a lot of marriage improvement books, until they are faced with a bomb drop. That's just my opinion. If you are happy with the man you are today, then you may not need to read self help or inspirational type of material. Otherwise, this is the perfect time to feast on material that holds interest for you. As you probably know, Youtube has some good videos on just about every subject under the sun, and it's much shorter than a book. grin

Quote
There was so much tension since BD and now that W actually moved into our other house it feels like there is a big release where I'm not walking on egg shells, so it was more of a question as to whether I should even bother standing for my marriage.


Okay, thanks for explaining. I will give you my opinion, FWIW. The board has people come here looking for "hope" in saving their M. Some people say they are "fighting for their M"...........and some will declare they are "standing for their M". It all sounds very..... noble. It's kind of like when the LBS wants to prove to the other spouse how committed they are to work on the M, except the other spouse could care less. It really doesn't change the sitch. Funny enough, I've seen some die-hard standing for their marriage posters who completely flipped overnight........for one reason or another.

Anyway, I have seen those who are resistant to dropping the rope; opening the cage door and setting the spouse free; moving on with their life; etc. They feel it runs contrary to standing for their marriage........or that they are giving up hope. That's fine. If they want to put their life on hold, while they suffer and wait to see if their spouse should have a change of heart somewhere down the road, they are free to do so. I'm not advocating divorce by making that statement. I am trying to make the point that every individual chooses how they will they will deal with the hand given them.

I'm here to mostly speak to those who have a WW, and to warn them of what doesn't work. Frankly, I feel it boils down to the mindset of individuals. For example, as a former WW, I know the most effective thing a LBH can do for to draw back his WW, is to dump her and start having fun like there's no tomorrow. Stop rescuing her and allow her to deal with circumstances of her decisions. That's what other WW's said worked, and other LBH's said worked in their sitch. The problem is that newcomers don't want to hear that type of advice, and immediately they see it as pushing divorce. The LBS has to detach, and has to legitimately enjoy his life.....without her, until she either changes her mind about the marital status, or he decides to divorce. How long is he going to spend watching her to see what she does next? That's up to him.

Currently, I'm having trouble communicating with someone from a different culture. I told him to stop contacting his W, b/c it always proved to be a bad decision........but he wouldn't stop. He continued repeating his initial mistakes, so, I finally just told him to stop working to save his M. Now, that might sound very anti-divorce busting advice, but I could not get him to put away his preconceived ideas and hear what I was saying. (LBS have trouble staying balanced in how they think and see things.) I told him to stop working to get good enough for her to consider returning home, and to stop tolerating her verbal abuse. I told him to emotionally let her go, and to focus on building himself a good life without her. It doesn't mean she'll never-ever want to be a part of his life again, but in the meantime he needs to get on with living. But you know what he recently said at the close of a post? Every morning he re-commits to fighting for his marriage. So.........he continues to suffer greatly, and his life doesn't get a lot better b/c he cannot let go of the belief he is totally responsible for his MR failing (which isn't true) and that he should be able to fix what is broken by having long conversations with his W, and trying to impress her with how he's changed. This doesn't work, and he can't move forward. frown I mean no disrespect to him, by sharing this part of his sitch, and I hope it might help someone else understand what I'm trying to point out. I'm not saying you must stop loving your spouse, or stop hoping that one day they will want to return......if those are your feelings. I'm just saying that it doesn't change anything for you to sit home pining away for the spouse who doesn't want you. It has no positive effect on the sitch.

IDK if anything I've said is making sense, or if I'm just rambling. It is a personal decision you make about how you'll deal with the rest of your life. I hate to see anyone waste the rest of their life grieving for someone who doesn't want to be with them. I'm not telling you or anyone to go get a divorce! I'm saying to detach; don't use the kids as an excuse to contact her or hang out with her; mentally set her free to do whatever she wants; and give yourself permission to have a life without her. Do you see anything wrong with this? I think, for some people, I would have to bluntly tell them to let go of their hope.......just to get them to put one foot in front of the other foot, and start getting a life worth while. I've had them get upset and fire back with the question......."So, you are telling me there is no hope?" tired Does it have to be 100% hope, or none at all? What would it take to just get on with living? At what point do you decide to stop standing for your marriage? IDK, but I've read from LBS's that you'll know when that time comes for you. Perhaps, you will experience the same as Joseph, once he dropped the rope and started living his life without her.......he's really enjoying himself without her in his life. Currently, he doesn't feel he will want her back, and now she is determined to win him. crazy See how things can change?

Quote
I'm not judging by any means but JosephS's BD was March 6th and by June (just 3-4 months later) he was dating other women. I'm 6 months in. Should I do the same if there are opportunities or should I hold back because I'm still technically married. It seems like a controversial topic on the board.


I don't judge him either. I was real concerned in how quickly he started getting involved with that first woman. And I was cautioning him about the pitfalls. Didn't hear too much about the second one, as I recall. He as much as told us he didn't want to hear what we thought about him seeing her. I wasn't going to preach about the moral side of it. I was genuinely worried in how vulnerable he was, coming from a co-dependent relationship.

People will use their own choice of measuring sticks to determine what is right/wrong for them. I suppose that's a long way of saying they will either justify their actions or go against the "rules" and do whatever they want. It's what I've witnessed IRL, and on the board. Some folks stick by their moral/religious compass, while others tend to be more liberal. I will be honest and tell you that most WW's are very jealous. They have a huge sense of entitlement, and although she doesn't want to be his W.......she doesn't want him replacing her with another woman....... (like she replaced him with OM). IMHO, you need to decide what is right/wrong before you venture out to look around at what's out there, otherwise, you will meet someone who you will want to make an exception to the rule. Don't think for one second there isn't a woman out there ready to gobble you up. Consider the potential woman you might date, b/c she would have feelings, too. You might believe this new woman is the best thing since sliced bread......but what if your W suddenly tells you she wants to come back home? Someone is going to get hurt! I've seen more than one case where the LBH was seeing OW, and they would get sexual right away........then the WW wanted to come home.......but, hold on, b/c OW is pregnant!!! That, my friend, is creating boulders in the reconciliation road. The LBH is very fragile after being dumped by his W. He wants to feel validated as a man. He wants some female company. He wants a shot of ego juice. He would love to have sex! Will he choose to live by what he believes is right, or let his emotional needs determine his actions? I would like to think his values & integrity separates him from the wayward spouse. I was still a wayward W when I joined the board, and I had some LBH's tell me that it would have been much more honorable if I had divorced my H before deciding to have an A. I wanted to tear them apart with my teeth! Seriously, it sounded simple enough, and I knew they were right........but at the time, I had followed my emotions rather than my religious/moral principles. I will forever regret it.

I've read many cases on the board where the LBH did not really move forward until he sees other women are interested in him. I understand it. I saw my grown children, friends, and relatives go through much the same experience. I've heard all the excuses, but bottom line is it's an ego thing. Some posters may not like what I'm about to say and certainly won't agree. On some level, I have to wonder if it's like the WW who wasn't getting her emotional needs met........became vulnerable......and met another man who made her feel good about herself. I guess some would argue that she chose to leave you first. So, does that free you up to go out with other women? While you had no choice in your W's decision, you do have a choice in how you'll conduct your life without her. You can choose to date while legally married, or you can get a divorce before dating. It's your life, and it is a choice you will make. I'm not going to judge you. I'm in no position to judge anyone.

I hope my post doesn't sound as if I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. I'm wanting you to take what is said and make your decision. There is no hurry. I could count on one hand how many times I've told a board member I thought they should go ahead and file for D. There have been countless numbers who've asked if they should file or hang on, but if they can think rationally, they need to make that decision without pressure from others. They have to live with the results of that decision. It might be the best answer to a terrible situation, but it is a decision they need to make for themselves. ((hugs))

Quote
Sandi2 - You responded to my thread back in July and I answered them. Just curious if you read those and had any thoughts?


Yes, I did read your response. Thank you. I don't think I have any additional thoughts that other posters have not shared......and/or I haven't shared today. Aren't you glad? Otherwise, this post would take up two pages! grin


Seduction
Attraction
Confidence
Respect


These are four words. They are abstract concepts. I have read many books covering these topics. I had to question my beliefs. I had to rewire my brain and practice different behaviors and skills in these area. Personal growth is never ending.

Your wife lost her attraction for you. She was seduced by another man. If your goal is to seduce her back, then you need to change. You initially focus on these four words. You do not date other women. But you learn how make them laugh. You learn how to make them feel good about themselves. You learn how to make them feel safe. You understand boundaries and do not cross them (The temptation will be there, do not give in). Interact with as many as you can. Old and young. Married and single. Smokers and non-smokers. Drinkers and non-drinkers. Attractive and unattractive. etc. How they FEEL in your presence is the key. Your goal is to make them feel good. All is fair in love and war. Do what works.

Pick different words as you move through the process. Forgiveness is a good one.
Ready2Change,

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Seduction
Attraction
Confidence
Respect

These are four words. They are abstract concepts. I have read many books covering these topics. I had to question my beliefs. I had to rewire my brain and practice different behaviors and skills in these area. Personal growth is never ending.

I feel comfortable in the in the areas Confidence and Respect, but could probably use some lessons on attraction and certainly seduction. I'll look up some materials.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Your wife lost her attraction for you. She was seduced by another man.

Hard to read, but true. The truth hurts sometimes.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
If your goal is to seduce her back, then you need to change. You initially focus on these four words. You do not date other women. But you learn how make them laugh. You learn how to make them feel good about themselves. You learn how to make them feel safe. You understand boundaries and do not cross them (The temptation will be there, do not give in). Interact with as many as you can. Old and young. Married and single. Smokers and non-smokers. Drinkers and non-drinkers. Attractive and unattractive. etc. How they FEEL in your presence is the key. Your goal is to make them feel good. All is fair in love and war. Do what works.

Not sure that's my goal anymore - guess time will tell - but I'll certainly do the homework. It's about self-improvement though anyway, right?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Pick different words as you move through the process. Forgiveness is a good one.

I'm definitely going to need to work on forgiveness. That's going to be hard.
Sandi2,

Originally Posted by sandi2
Not every LBH has NGS. The majority of LBH's I've seen with WW's, have been men with NGS. I've also noticed they are often in SSM, and that issue goes hand in hand with the loss of respect the W has for her H, thereby, losing sexual attraction for him. It isn't a problem in every situation, it's just very common.

I'm going to re-read it. Some of it resonated but half seemed off-based, though SSM was certainly an issue at play for me. Perhaps it was about losing respect for me but I also attribute the SSM to ADs as well. In retrospect, the SSM was a problem farther back than I realized. Maybe I missed some red flags.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I think every LBS's self confidence takes a nosedive when they are rejected and betrayed by their spouse. Discovering an affair must feel like the ultimate kick in your heart. If your confidence level was healthy before the bomb dropped, you can get it back. IMHO, guys who are co-dependent attach their self value to the W and the marriage. If none of this describes you, then you are blessed. smile

Definitely a hit to the self-confidence / punch in the gut, but you're right - I can get it back.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I don't have any particular books to suggest, and we have to be very careful referring anything other than DB, due to board policies. The marriage help books you previously listed won't help your current situation. However, you can take in what it teaches so that you can apply it when you have reconciled, or in another relationship. Sadly, I don't think many men read a lot of marriage improvement books, until they are faced with a bomb drop. That's just my opinion. If you are happy with the man you are today, then you may not need to read self help or inspirational type of material. Otherwise, this is the perfect time to feast on material that holds interest for you. As you probably know, Youtube has some good videos on just about every subject under the sun, and it's much shorter than a book. grin

Your stereotype is accurate in this case. I didn't read anything in this area pre-BD, but will be seeking more out in the future.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I'm here to mostly speak to those who have a WW, and to warn them of what doesn't work. Frankly, I feel it boils down to the mindset of individuals. For example, as a former WW, I know the most effective thing a LBH can do for to draw back his WW, is to dump her and start having fun like there's no tomorrow. Stop rescuing her and allow her to deal with circumstances of her decisions. That's what other WW's said worked, and other LBH's said worked in their sitch. The problem is that newcomers don't want to hear that type of advice, and immediately they see it as pushing divorce. The LBS has to detach, and has to legitimately enjoy his life.....without her, until she either changes her mind about the marital status, or he decides to divorce. How long is he going to spend watching her to see what she does next? That's up to him.

It took me 4-5 months but I get it now and I'm doing it.

Originally Posted by sandi2
IDK if anything I've said is making sense, or if I'm just rambling.

Either way I appreciate it - lots to think about.

Originally Posted by sandi2
It is a personal decision you make about how you'll deal with the rest of your life. I hate to see anyone waste the rest of their life grieving for someone who doesn't want to be with them. I'm not telling you or anyone to go get a divorce! I'm saying to detach; don't use the kids as an excuse to contact her or hang out with her; mentally set her free to do whatever she wants; and give yourself permission to have a life without her. Do you see anything wrong with this? I think, for some people, I would have to bluntly tell them to let go of their hope.......just to get them to put one foot in front of the other foot, and start getting a life worth while. I've had them get upset and fire back with the question......."So, you are telling me there is no hope?" tired Does it have to be 100% hope, or none at all? What would it take to just get on with living? At what point do you decide to stop standing for your marriage? IDK, but I've read from LBS's that you'll know when that time comes for you. Perhaps, you will experience the same as Joseph, once he dropped the rope and started living his life without her.......he's really enjoying himself without her in his life. Currently, he doesn't feel he will want her back, and now she is determined to win him. crazy See how things can change?

I won't waste the rest of my life - got such enjoyment last night just being an assistant coach on S5's soccer team! Though it was weird to have W in the stands watching - I did wonder what she was thinking - and she turned down an opportunity to be with D1, having my mom watch her instead, SMH.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I will be honest and tell you that most WW's are very jealous. They have a huge sense of entitlement, and although she doesn't want to be his W.......she doesn't want him replacing her with another woman....... (like she replaced him with OM).

I can understand that. No one wants to see someone they were in love with fall for someone else.

Originally Posted by sandi2
IMHO, you need to decide what is right/wrong before you venture out to look around at what's out there, otherwise, you will meet someone who you will want to make an exception to the rule. Don't think for one second there isn't a woman out there ready to gobble you up.

I believe it. I've already seen some potential in that area whereas the few months after BD I was in "how am ever going to meet anyone as a single dad" mode. I'm a pretty good catch, imo (in-shape, great career, great dad).

Originally Posted by sandi2
Consider the potential woman you might date, b/c she would have feelings, too. You might believe this new woman is the best thing since sliced bread......but what if your W suddenly tells you she wants to come back home? Someone is going to get hurt!

Good point. The woman I was considering asking out is beautiful, a great mom, and has parents who are married 40 years - so it could have long-term potential and not be a casual/couple dates thing, so not sure I'm ready and that's probably not fair for her either.

Originally Posted by sandi2
The LBH is very fragile after being dumped by his W. He wants to feel validated as a man. He wants some female company. He wants a shot of ego juice. He would love to have sex!

Yep. Can't argue there.

Originally Posted by sandi2
I hope my post doesn't sound as if I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. I'm wanting you to take what is said and make your decision. There is no hurry. I could count on one hand how many times I've told a board member I thought they should go ahead and file for D. There have been countless numbers who've asked if they should file or hang on, but if they can think rationally, they need to make that decision without pressure from others. They have to live with the results of that decision. It might be the best answer to a terrible situation, but it is a decision they need to make for themselves. ((hugs))

Thanks :-)

Originally Posted by sandi2

Yes, I did read your response. Thank you. I don't think I have any additional thoughts that other posters have not shared......and/or I haven't shared today. Aren't you glad? Otherwise, this post would take up two pages! grin

Thanks! ...and no worries at the length of this post. The feedback on the board has been great, and I look forward to peoples' comments. You've given me a lot to consider :-)
Originally Posted by BL42
I'll look up some materials.
Most guys don't get it. Once you go down the rabbit hole, there is a whole fun world.


Quote
I'm definitely going to need to work on forgiveness. That's going to be hard.
Forgive yourself first. You did the best with what you knew. Can't change the past. Learn and move on. Same with others. Forgive them. Daily if needed. No need to relive pain over and over.

I know I shared this link with you before, but there are many good words to focus your growth around:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094

Enjoy the weekend.
This may be venting more than anything but had a few annoying/troublesome things happen this week...

  • Logistics - Lots of emails regarding changes of schedule. W asked if she could go to D5's Kindergarten orientation instead of me because "they want only one parent due to COVID". I explained it's my week and I had already arranged with work, so planned to attend. She responded she'd ask her grandmother to watch D1 and wanted to go. She certainly has the right to attend but all of a sudden the "one parent/COVID" rule didn't seem so important to her anymore.
  • Soccer - I'm the assistant coach of S5's soccer team. It was my week with the kids so I offer for her to spend time with D1 (even bring her to soccer), but she wanted my mom to watch D1 so she "could focus on watching S5", and then proceeded to socialize with other parents half the time while D1 was at home with grandma. Other parents brought siblings with them to run around. I'm jumping at every opportunity to be with the kids, and flexing out of work to do so. Why doesn't she want to take the opportunity to be with D1?
  • Kindergarten - W apparently changed S5's primary address/phone number with the school and removed my contact information without my knowledge, so I never received the kindergarten welcome letter and teacher assignment like other families in the neighborhood. Other parents/kids are asking me and S5 who is teacher is, and we weren't sure, so I've had to speak to the principal and registrar office to correct the situation and stay in the know.

Is this the next 20 years of my life?
Today is my 7th wedding anniversary. A year ago my W and I were celebrating our 6th anniversary at a spa resort on a lake, taking a wine tour, dinner at a steakhouse, and couples massages. Despite being almost 7 months since BD, it still seems a bit surreal at times she is moved out of our home, but as we say in COVID times "this is the new normal".

I'm taking the kids to visit our family friends at their parents' lake house today. They're one of the families we went to Disney with in January, and we are godparents to each others' children. The weather is going to be beautiful and it'll be nice to see them and have S5 and D1 play with the god-kids.

This evening I'll be dropping the kids off at W's place and plan to treat it like any other day - not even mentioning the anniversary. I assume she won't either, but she must know the date and its significance. I do wonder what W is thinking in these situations, but suppose that's pointless. FWIW, I haven't engaged with her on anything other than kids logistics since July (mostly by email).
Good post. Stay strong.
Originally Posted by BL42
This may be venting more than anything but had a few annoying/troublesome things happen this week...

  • Logistics - Lots of emails regarding changes of schedule. W asked if she could go to D5's Kindergarten orientation instead of me because "they want only one parent due to COVID". I explained it's my week and I had already arranged with work, so planned to attend. She responded she'd ask her grandmother to watch D1 and wanted to go. She certainly has the right to attend but all of a sudden the "one parent/COVID" rule didn't seem so important to her anymore.
  • Soccer - I'm the assistant coach of S5's soccer team. It was my week with the kids so I offer for her to spend time with D1 (even bring her to soccer), but she wanted my mom to watch D1 so she "could focus on watching S5", and then proceeded to socialize with other parents half the time while D1 was at home with grandma. Other parents brought siblings with them to run around. I'm jumping at every opportunity to be with the kids, and flexing out of work to do so. Why doesn't she want to take the opportunity to be with D1?
  • Kindergarten - W apparently changed S5's primary address/phone number with the school and removed my contact information without my knowledge, so I never received the kindergarten welcome letter and teacher assignment like other families in the neighborhood. Other parents/kids are asking me and S5 who is teacher is, and we weren't sure, so I've had to speak to the principal and registrar office to correct the situation and stay in the know.


If she is being passive aggressive, you need to get that nipped quickly. Co-parenting is a challenge when you are working together....extremely difficult when you are not working together. You always do things as if you are working together. Allways call BS when she is not.


COVID does throw a wrench into things. In my sitch (which is not ideal) Each of us scheduled PTC independently (as if we were single parents). IE you both should go to orientation since you are two households. The schools should be understanding.

As far as the address/phone number...get yours back into the system. I would let W know that is disrespectful and that if she pulls Anything like this in the future, you will look into your options. Read the boundary thread.

This is how I had to do things:
"W, I am sorry that you believe it is OK to take my contact info off the school records. I have contacted the school and have had my info added back. In the future, please contact me first before changing.....

If you continue to do BLABLBLA.. than I will bring this up with WHOEVER CAN HELP THIS STOP...

Family therapist,my lawyer,the parenting coordinator etc


Originally Posted by BL42
Is this the next 20 years of my life?

Maybe the next 1 or 2.
I bought a brand new SUV today! It's actually a bit of a 180 for me because I typically have a sedan and them into the ground (bought my previous one slightly used and owned it for 13 years / over 100k miles), but looked at the purchase as a "Treat Yo Self" type of thing and figured a larger/more reliable was better with the kids, considering we're now a one vehicle household. I researched quite a bit, test drove a lot, and in the end fell in love with the one I bought - it's definitely the right choice. I know the enjoyment of new purchases tends to wears off soon, but I'm pretty stoked at the moment and plan to enjoy it! :-)
It's been a relatively good week since my last post. I got to have the kids an extra night and extra two half-days due to my W's work schedule, coached S5's soccer practice then had a steak & wine dinner with a bunch of guys from my former bowling league (I'd quit the team previously to help more at home when D1 arrived), and golfed twice with friends.

This morning was S5's first day of Kindergarten so I decorated the house with signs, balloons, and ribbons in the school's colors, and we had a big pancake breakfast with my parents. He was very excited, so that was cool. Then I walked him to school and (along with my wife) attended K orientation with his teacher. W & I discussed some school matters amicably afterwards. The whole situation is still weird and still stirs up some feelings when we're together during kid transitions and things like soccer/school orientation, but overall doing alright on detachment during the weeks when we're not together.

Looking forward to continuing my full week with S5 & D1...

Sounds like a good week.
Apparently I posted too soon...

My attorney served me divorce papers this evening, filed by W's attorney. It's not like it was a surprise - more a formality (legally required to be done in-person) - but it's still a lousy feeling to receive and reading through the documents. Yes, I realize from reading this forum "it's just paper/legal process", but it still [censored]. Would never have expected 7-8 months being ago in Disney with the kids that our family would be breaking up shortly thereafter.
Sorry to hear that BL. Logically you know its coming but when you actually see the papers, it can really sting.

But you’re right, this changes nothing in regards to DBing. I actually know a few couples that have divorced and remarried each other, it happens.

Hang in there.
Sorry to hear about that BL42. I about lost it when I saw my W went to the courthouse. I knew what was coming. But a couple weeks later I found out that she had made copies front and back and they didn't accept them. But I remember the feeling. Just stay in control of your mind. Did you read about the stop sign technique in DR? Best thing I've read. Remember, you really do control your thoughts. You want to be happy? Be positive.

I have "felt" as if I was on the precipice of divorce many times. Eventually I realized I'd be fine and the line I tell myself is that "I create my own juice". By juice I mean energy, mojo, swagger. Keep your head up, keep the smile just barely contained, look at people in the eye and speak confidently.

Glad you found a new car too, that is always fun.
BL, I just found your post and want to join in. I a recent LBH (left behind husband) and you can find my story, which I started a couple weeks ago, here: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2903973&page=1

Here's my $0.02 after reading your initial post. I believed in the "for better or for worse" part of the marriage vows and would have done most anything to bring my wife back from the brink, were I in your situation. But on the back side of a surprise divorce filing by a WAW 12 months ago, I also believe in the "humpty dumpty" theory, which says that no matter what you do, you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, fully and as intact as before.

Your WW now appears to be an addict, an addiction to conflict and irrational behavior at least, and you cannot cure her of her addiction. Only she can. I have three children and they have asked about how to know good and bad signs of potential mates, and I always tell them to watch out for addictions. Whether it's gambling, alcohol, drugs, clothes-buying, or sex, it is fatal to believe the addict when he/she says they will overcome it. You have to assume that, if you marry him/her, you will live with the addiction for 50 years! And it you can't envision doing that, then don't marry.

That's my simple perspective here. Your XW broke the egg, and showed some very destructive tendencies. Especially the hostility and fighting. She is addicted to conflict and is blind to how good a man you are! To me, you are better to be rid of her.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I think the only way you can truly move on with life is to emotionally drop your WW. As long as you hold tight to that rope you have tied to her.......the harder it's going to be for you to move on and be happy.

Sandi, would you mind joining in on my thread? More than one person has mentioned you. I am a LBH who apparently still doesn't quite "get it" about the DB principles and am slowly coming around, although my dating story at 90 days after BD might make the veterans here crazy. It's all at the link: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2903973&page=1

Originally Posted by sandi2
I'm going to give you the number one thing all successful board members have told us that works! It's up to you to believe it or ignore it. Ready? Getting a life! I mean, really enjoying life!

I'm on the way to that but I could use the mentoring from y'all.
Originally Posted by sandi2
Here's something else I suggest you focus on. Get the book about no more mr. nice guy, and read every bit of it. It's not long. Be open to what it says. Tell us if you see yourself anywhere in the book. I don't want you to think it's not a big deal being a nice guy. Here's the thing, along with the NGS, comes passivity, and a woman can't stand passivity in a man.

This is a little hard for me to understand. I've always viewed my being "Mr Nice Guy" as part of my appeal. I am a sensitive, gentle man, and have been told that "You're the kind of man that all women want." So please help open my eyes here.

Also, I need to know which books to read. I've been told there is a DB and DR book, but I don't know which exact titles they are on Michele's page. Also, is there a separate MNG book, or is it just a chapter in either the DB or DR book?

Thanks!
tom_h,

Thanks for chiming in. I've been following your thread since you first started posting a month ago but haven't had much advice to give yet. Sounds like while you're newer to the board, your situation is much further along than mine. It's really tough with my kids being so young to think about what lies ahead, but on the other hand I can only imagine what it's like to be with someone 32+ years and have it happen (my W & I are together 9, married 7) so from that perspective it's better (relatively).

Originally Posted by tom_h
Here's my $0.02 after reading your initial post. I believed in the "for better or for worse" part of the marriage vows and would have done most anything to bring my wife back from the brink, were I in your situation. But on the back side of a surprise divorce filing by a WAW 12 months ago, I also believe in the "humpty dumpty" theory, which says that no matter what you do, you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, fully and as intact as before.

In the first few months I thought I could put Humpty back together again, but at this point I think you're right. As many on this forum say, marriage 1.0 is over, there may be a marriage 2.0...or not, and even 2.0 won't be fully together again.

Originally Posted by tom_h
Your WW now appears to be an addict, an addiction to conflict and irrational behavior at least, and you cannot cure her of her addiction. Only she can. I have three children and they have asked about how to know good and bad signs of potential mates, and I always tell them to watch out for addictions. Whether it's gambling, alcohol, drugs, clothes-buying, or sex, it is fatal to believe the addict when he/she says they will overcome it. You have to assume that, if you marry him/her, you will live with the addiction for 50 years! And it you can't envision doing that, then don't marry.

That's my simple perspective here. Your XW broke the egg, and showed some very destructive tendencies. Especially the hostility and fighting. She is addicted to conflict and is blind to how good a man you are! To me, you are better to be rid of her.

I personally think her family experiences as a teen and family upbringing (both parents married 3 times; mom cheated on dad and married OM) play a big part in this. Even though she swore she didn't want to make the same mistakes as her mom (or half sister), she has...and is now leaning on them for support. Maybe that's a type of addiction you're referring to.

Good luck with your sitch. I'll be reading along.
Thornton & ovrrnbw,

Thanks for the support. It did certainly sting, but that's worn off a bit now. I'll re-read the Stop Sign technique in DR and work on creating my own juice! And I AM enjoying the new vehicle...I'm loving it!
Yesterday held several highs and one extreme low...

I walked S5 to his first full-day of Kindergarten in the morning. It was a proud (and emotional) moment to see him walk away and into the school building without me. I picked him up after school with some silly string cans left over from Father's Day and sprayed him (off school property) and then gave him and his friends some cans to play with. He said "that was a good surprise dad!". We played on the playground, and in the evening I coached his soccer practice...he had a blast running around and playing soccer in all the rain/mist.

Unfortunately after a wonderful day he had a meltdown at home that night, sobbing uncontrollably for 45 MINUTES saying "I want mommy! I miss mommy!" and crying :-( I felt so helpless to fix my son's sadness. All I could do was hug/validate/reassure him. At least he's getting out his feelings? My mom, who has been his "safe person" who he's opening up to about the sadness/hurt more than me, came by halfway through and hugged him as well and talked to him. S5 ended up crying himself to sleep while in my arms and I eventually took him upstairs and put him to bed. Extremely tough moment. I'm obviously having to deal with hurt too, but at this point I'm more distraught at the hurt my W's betrayal is causing my children than me personally.
Quote
I bought a brand new SUV today! It's actually a bit of a 180 for me because I typically have a sedan and them into the ground (bought my previous one slightly used and owned it for 13 years / over 100k miles), but looked at the purchase as a "Treat Yo Self" type of thing and figured a larger/more reliable was better with the kids, considering we're now a one vehicle household.


Hey-hey, good for you!

Quote
This morning was S5's first day of Kindergarten so I decorated the house with signs, balloons, and ribbons in the school's colors, and we had a big pancake breakfast with my parents. He was very excited, so that was cool.


Oh, that's so sweet. Ever consider going into the business of coordinating special events? wink

Quote
I walked S5 to his first full-day of Kindergarten in the morning. It was a proud (and emotional) moment to see him walk away and into the school building without me. I picked him up after school with some silly string cans left over from Father's Day and sprayed him (off school property) and then gave him and his friends some cans to play with. He said "that was a good surprise dad!". We played on the playground, and in the evening I coached his soccer practice...he had a blast running around and playing soccer in all the rain/mist.


Wow! You really made the day special for him. You gave him a wonderful memory to cherish.

Quote
Unfortunately after a wonderful day he had a meltdown at home that night, sobbing uncontrollably for 45 MINUTES saying "I want mommy! I miss mommy!" and crying :-( I felt so helpless to fix my son's sadness. All I could do was hug/validate/reassure him. At least he's getting out his feelings? My mom, who has been his "safe person" who he's opening up to about the sadness/hurt more than me, came by halfway through and hugged him as well and talked to him. S5 ended up crying himself to sleep while in my arms and I eventually took him upstairs and put him to bed. Extremely tough moment. I'm obviously having to deal with hurt too, but at this point I'm more distraught at the hurt my W's betrayal is causing my children than me personally.


That's heartbreaking to read, and it must have felt as if your guts were being gouged out. Nothing hurts worse than to see our innocent babies suffer. (((hugs)))

IDK what to tell you, b/c you seem to have the Dad role down real good. If she ever comes to her senses, she's going to be hit with a lot of guilt.........if she comes all the way back. Only time will tell.
Originally Posted by BL42
Unfortunately after a wonderful day he had a meltdown at home that night, sobbing uncontrollably for 45 MINUTES saying "I want mommy! I miss mommy!" and crying :-( I felt so helpless to fix my son's sadness. All I could do was hug/validate/reassure him. At least he's getting out his feelings? My mom, who has been his "safe person" who he's opening up to about the sadness/hurt more than me, came by halfway through and hugged him as well and talked to him. S5 ended up crying himself to sleep while in my arms and I eventually took him upstairs and put him to bed. Extremely tough moment. I'm obviously having to deal with hurt too, but at this point I'm more distraught at the hurt my W's betrayal is causing my children than me personally.


I raised three children to past age 20 and I can say categorically that your son, while he may not get his mommy, also needs the comfort and safety of a mother figure. I'll make a suggestion -- as long as you trust your mom (and I assume you do), let him develop a strong bond with her and try not to be envious of that, even as you struggle with the loss of your marriage and the breakup of your family. On weekends and during summer, let him spend the night at her house. Boys need both male and female to grow up healthy, and you mom could fill the bill given her love for him.
sandi2,

I appreciate the support.

Originally Posted by sandi2
That's heartbreaking to read, and it must have felt as if your guts were being gouged out. Nothing hurts worse than to see our innocent babies suffer. (((hugs)))

It was one of the worst moments in all this to-date. I'm much more in control of my emotions than I was a few months ago, but it was devastating to see my son break down. It's one thing for me to be hurting, it's another thing entirely for my children to be hurt. At least I was there to hug him, hold him, and tell him I love him.

Originally Posted by sandi2
IDK what to tell you, b/c you seem to have the Dad role down real good. If she ever comes to her senses, she's going to be hit with a lot of guilt.........if she comes all the way back. Only time will tell.

Thanks! I love my children so much and took great pride in being an involved dad even before BD, and if anything this sitch strengthened that resolve. I'm going to do everything in my power to stay as involved in their lives as much as I can (within my control).

I'd like to think she'll have regrets and even come to her senses, but certainly no signs of it at this point.
Originally Posted by tom_h
I raised three children to past age 20 and I can say categorically that your son, while he may not get his mommy, also needs the comfort and safety of a mother figure. I'll make a suggestion -- as long as you trust your mom (and I assume you do), let him develop a strong bond with her and try not to be envious of that, even as you struggle with the loss of your marriage and the breakup of your family. On weekends and during summer, let him spend the night at her house. Boys need both male and female to grow up healthy, and you mom could fill the bill given her love for him.

I didn't mean to imply W didn't see the kids at all - she still has then for a good percentage of the time - though I have them a majority of nights and more days at this point. That said, you're absolutely right - my mom has been a godsend through all this. She previously babysat him 4 days a week in the first few years of his life and lives right down the street now, so he's very close with her. My parents have been cooking dinners and helping me with the kids many evenings and S5 feels comfortable playing at her house and opening up to grandma. I trust her completely, and am glad she can be his "safe person" and help him feel secure and comforted during this difficult change in his life. I think it's a good thing for him to experience the stability of my parents' relationship and my mom loving him and being there for him no matter what, in contrast to my W's recent decisions - hopefully that'll help model a more stable environment & relationship for him and help in his future.
Yesterday was now D2's birthday. I didn't get to spend time with her on her actual birthday, which sucked, but tried to make the most of it though by having a small party for her the day before (when I had her). My parents, sister, BIL, niece/goddaughter came and I decided to invite FIL/SMIL who have been supportive to make sure they weren't excluded. I blew up balloons, hung streamers, and put up pictures of Minnie around the house. D2 was excited in the morning seeing everything. My mom and S5 made a Minnie Mouse cake (with whom D2 is obsessed). S5 was very proud of doing most of the cake decorations himself and D2 excitedly brought people into the kitchen to show it off. D2 later made us light the candles and sing happy birthday about two dozen times while she blew them out, then proceeded to lick the cake and dig right into it with a spoon. Nice moments with my daughter :-)

I wish we didn't have to divide up time with the kids, especially for special events, but have to keep reminding myself it's beyond my control...
Need some advice...

I had some back and forth tonight with W regarding the kids' schedule over text message. I've been trying to handle those items over email but she initiated over text. W & I had previously discussed this particular week (and in general weeks going forward) and agreed on the kids coming over in the morning before school. Tonight she texted me stating (not asking) that D2 would stay at home tomorrow and be watched by her grandmother instead of coming over with me. I kept my responses firm but not mean and requested she stick to our agreed upon schedule, but she is simply not going to bring D2 over in the morning...so I stopped responding.

I plan to email L the conversation tomorrow to get advice from a legal perspective, but what's the right way to respond from a DB perspective? The thing is, I'd actually have no issue with her grandmother watching the kids if she had asked me in advance, but objected to the way she unilaterally decided to change the plan without consulting me let alone get my agreement. The kids are only 5 and 2, so we have a long road ahead...how do I balance being flexible with setting a bad precedent for unliteral changes in the future?
BL,

Well, you can't control her and any attempt to stand your ground will come off that way. The best thing to do, you have already done. Notified your lawyer.

I just skimmed through your sitch, and I'm sorry you have ended up here, but I'm also glad that you have found this forum. You will get the best advice, more than any money can buy.

Stay steady for the kids, if an action can't be back with legal consequence/paperwork than the best you can do is state your opinion, because that's what it will be, she won't HAVE to listen or follow what you tell her. So any attempt will end in frustration. Just know, time and patience will get you through.

IMO, just state to her in a text message, that the best thing is for you two to talk about changes in the future. Put in a place where you can record your statement to her and her response. Don't go back and forth with her, which I've seen you have already not done.

Good job.

Stay strong
joejoe1,

I appreciate you chiming in.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
Well, you can't control her and any attempt to stand your ground will come off that way. The best thing to do, you have already done. Notified your lawyer.

I was looking at it in terms of "you can't nice her back" and how much do I let things like this slide early and set a bad precedent where I'll get walked over even more down the road, but I can see how it could be seen as controlling. Maybe I should've just let it roll off me. I don't really object to her grandmother watching D2 as much as her deviating from our agreed to plan at the last minute without consulting me.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
I just skimmed through your sitch, and I'm sorry you have ended up here, but I'm also glad that you have found this forum. You will get the best advice, more than any money can buy.

Thanks for taking the time - it's been great to hear everyone's feedback so far.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
Stay steady for the kids, if an action can't be back with legal consequence/paperwork than the best you can do is state your opinion, because that's what it will be, she won't HAVE to listen or follow what you tell her. So any attempt will end in frustration. Just know, time and patience will get you through.

Will do. I'm doing everything I can to be there for the kids. I'm doing fairly well over all at focusing on the kids, work, and GAL and not getting wrapped up in the sitch and drama but there are certain triggers like these exchanges which get me riled up. I need to keep working on the patience and not letting those situations get to me.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
IMO, just state to her in a text message, that the best thing is for you two to talk about changes in the future. Put in a place where you can record your statement to her and her response. Don't go back and forth with her, which I've seen you have already not done.

I asked her to stick to our agreed upon schedule and in the future review proposed changes to it in advance, but admittedly went back and forth a few times before dropping it. I probably should've stated it once, and moved on. I think it was a combination of losing more time with D2 and being told the plan was changing vs. being asked.

Originally Posted by joejoe1
Stay strong

Thanks, I'm trying!
Originally Posted by BL42
Need some advice...but what's the right way to respond from a DB perspective? The thing is, I'd actually have no issue with her grandmother watching the kids if she had asked me in advance, but objected to the way she unilaterally decided to change the plan without consulting me let alone get my agreement.
Been there, done that.

If it becomes a pattern, then set a boundary you can enforce.

I have started many Emails chains with this pattern:

It appears there is some confusion regarding "Topic XYZ". I would like to reach a "Topic XYZ" agreement with you. I see two options that are best for our children. Option A. Option B. Do either of these work for you? If not, do you have another suggestion? If I do not hear back from you by "Reasonable deadline". I will (some type of action on you part). Thanks for your attention to this matter. Regards, R2C

Some actions I have used:
1) initiate mediation process to help us come to resolution
2) consider this matter closed (even though I don't think it is the right choice) and stick with our original agreement


Two great threads on boundaries:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1859179

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096
My favorite text message to the kids mother: "I sent you an email"
New Thread:

WAW w/Exit Affair or WW? - Don't Want Divorce (2)
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