Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2855155&page=1Part 2:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2877693&page=1Part 3:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2882473&page=1Hey Steve,
keep working on your detachment. Quit trying to take all the blame. Be prepared for those separation papers to say something worse than "separation".
Good luck.
Carried over from the previous thread.
I have to admit that until now, I never thought that might be a possibility. And wow. If that's what it is, then I'll handle it but I almost don't even know what to say. I can't say I'd be shocked because certainly that's what her actions point to, but it would be another extremely out-of-character thing for her to do. I have to remind myself, who she is right now isn't the woman I married.
If that's what she says, the game plan is to simply say "That's not what I want, but I won't stand in your way." No tears. No visible emotion. Make her do all of the heavy lifting, fight for my interests across every conversation.
I'll update this thread tomorrow.
S,
There is a saying around here to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. My radar went up when you mentioned she said she can't work on the marriage until you are legal separated. That's manipulation to get what she wants in the separation.
If that's what she says, the game plan is to simply say "That's not what I want, but I won't stand in your way." No tears. No visible emotion. Make her do all of the heavy lifting, fight for my interests across every conversation.
Pretty much accept for your last point. No conversations. Let the lawyers handle it.
S,
There is a saying around here to hope for the best but prepare for the worst. My radar went up when you mentioned she said she can't work on the marriage until you are legal separated. That's manipulation to get what she wants in the separation.
If that's what she says, the game plan is to simply say "That's not what I want, but I won't stand in your way." No tears. No visible emotion. Make her do all of the heavy lifting, fight for my interests across every conversation.
Pretty much accept for your last point. No conversations. Let the lawyers handle it.
So just to be clear, if we meet tomorrow and it turns out it's actually divorce papers, I should basically just say "I'm not going to go over this with you, I'll handle it through my lawyers" and leave?
S,
Not if you are able to work it out amicably. I think I may have misinterpreted your original statement.
It's hard to say exactly, Steve.
If someone blindsides you at business meeting, and that is what this is, what do you do?
The best thing to do is if you feel your losing your composure to just say “ that’s not what I want but won’t stand in your way”. Then leave.
FWIW, I do think we can work it out amicably. As U and a few others have mentioned, we don't have a lot of complicating factors. No kids, a majority of my illiquid assets were held before marriage, and our salaries are equivocal so there's no support.
But to O's point, yeah, I would sort of feel blindsided, on top of the frustration that I feel about her saying for a YEAR that she's needed to get a legal separation in place. It'd be a mixture of anger and hurt, but I honestly don't know which would be more right now.
I'm talking to my lawyer tomorrow morning; I might ask her what she recommends I do in that situation.
Just doing some journaling.
I was waiting in the lobby of my local urgent care clinic for an anti-body test when I came across an article that interviewed a lot of people on their second marriage that went over aspects of their first, and what went wrong. I figured what the hell, probably an apropos thing for me to chew on.
What really struck me from the article were two things: one, a lot of people chalked up the demise of their first marriage as the result of two people who were earnest but young, and found themselves and their lives moving in a different direction than their partner. And two, a lot of them also said that if it wasn't for the demise of their first marriage, they likely never would have found the strength, growth, and wisdom to be successful in their second one.
I certainly understand the first point. When I met WAS, she was 24 and I was 30. (We married at 29 and 35.) While I was in a different phase of my career than her, it's true that we were both very young. My career had the path that it did, and she had hers -- but we weren't moving at the same pace nor having similar success, and I think I was very much more set in the who I was/who I'm becoming mold than she was. I'm not using it as an excuse but it follows logic: I was really the first long-long-term relationship she had, we met when she was fresh out of school, and down the line she may have simply realized that the person she was becoming or wanted to become wasn't possible in our marriage.
To the second point, I'm a bit more torn. Do I believe I'd have read NMMNG if I wasn't in my current situation? Probably not. But I do believe if we had continued to work in counseling, we'd have made a lot of progress on what was in our way. I'm not yet willing to conclude that I needed to have this happen in order to have the epiphany I needed to change my perspective. It's irrelevant though -- I have changed my perspective, I'm putting in the work, and I'm so much more capable and aware of my patterns than I ever was. I'm far from a finished product, and I certainly wish that growth didn't have to come at such a large expense. But I 100% believe that there's a healthy and fulfilling relationship down the road for me with plenty of better days ahead.
S,
Actually I don’t think 35 and 29 are young at all to be married. Also to your point 90% of all non abusive relationships could be improved with counseling if both partners are onboard.
Steve I think you really need to question what type of person your W is to quit on your marriage after two years. I think you are going to see this as a blessing in disguise years down the road.
S,
Actually I don’t think 35 and 29 are young at all to be married. Also to your point 90% of all non abusive relationships could be improved with counseling if both partners are onboard.
Steve I think you really need to question what type of person your W is to quit on your marriage after two years. I think you are going to see this as a blessing in disguise years down the road.
Fair on both. On the first one, yes, I don't think we were young overall, but rather given our respective backgrounds (both went to grad school, both very career-oriented, etc.) it's fair to say that I was further along in my overall life development than she was, and certainly had more experience in long-term relationships. But yes, it's not like we were 20.
On the second point, yeah, as I find myself feeling more anger about the situation, this certainly comes up a lot. I wasn't perfect by any means, but two years is a very, very short amount of time. (It's actually the root of my embarrassment and hurt over the situation, to be honest.) I don't think she by any means gave everything she had to making it work.
Either way, the lesson is the same: this really, REALLY sucked, but it's caused me to learn and grow so much. I am stronger because of it.
"It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things".
One of my favorite lines I've ever read, written by a slave turned philosopher 2000 years ago and it is still golden. It definitely applies to this:
two years is a very, very short amount of time. (It's actually the root of my embarrassment and hurt over the situation, to be honest.)
Be strong, good luck today.
To OB's point and something I learned from Peter Crone's work.
He doesn't view anything as a failure. It is just something that happened and it couldn't happen any other way because it didn't.
When you really get that it completely changes your mindset.
On the second point, yeah, as I find myself feeling more anger about the situation, this certainly comes up a lot. I wasn't perfect by any means, but two years is a very, very short amount of time. (It's actually the root of my embarrassment and hurt over the situation, to be honest.) I don't think she by any means gave everything she had to making it work.
Steve, as a person who has almost a similar sitch with you, I feel your frustration. We feel that our W didn’t give the M a fair chance. Maybe we can prove them wrong. However, you probably understand by now, it’s their issue and we shouldn’t entirely put the burden of the blame on ourselves. Tell me, where does this feeling of embarrassment come from? Is it shame because you feel that you failed to keep your marriage alive?
To OB's point and something I learned from Peter Crone's work.
He doesn't view anything as a failure. It is just something that happened and it couldn't happen any other way because it didn't.
When you really get that it completely changes your mindset.
When I coached football I preached that you can't not make mistakes (excuse the double negative) unless you aren't trying.
They are learning points and nothing more. The only failure is in not trying and not going 100%.
Or as Thomas Edison would say " you find a way to not make a marriage work".
So, actually I'd say that went pretty well.
WAW is still very cordial, pleasant, and almost friendly. (As am I.) She is still sticking to the separation agreement. I spoke to my lawyer earlier today before the call and she took the position that separation agreements are pretty meaningless and are almost always ignored by the family courts here in Brooklyn. The logic remains the same: until she feels like she's got a better understanding of the lay of the land, it's hard for her to work through the ambivalence etc etc etc etc.
We are pretty far apart on a few things. Most notably, how much she is entitled to of the company I sold while we were together but not married, as well as how much she is entitled to of the company I started after we separated. She thinks 25% of both. I am 0% on the latter -- because it is absurd that she would be entitled to something that I started after she left me -- but on the former, I'm torn. Legally, my lawyer believes that any judge would say that it's 0%, or close to it. Ethically, even though we weren't married, I cannot sit here and say that she wasn't an ingredient in its success; we were living together, she was emotionally supportive, and there for me in a very mentally taxing time.
How that manifests in a number is something I'll have to noodle on. My NGS would tell me to capitulate and be pliant to her position. I am instead going to take the approach of doing what is best for me, while also one that I feel is in accordance to what I feel is ethically and morally fair.
I'll need some time to let my thoughts and emotions settle, but I'm in a good place.
I'll also share a funny story with you, while I'm here. I was on a Zoom call with my lawyer, as we were wrapping up, she noticed that I was a bit emotional and she said, "Hey -- let me also give you some non-legal advice, from someone who has seen it all. You're young, successful, and well-spoken. NYC is your oyster, it's the single woman's capital of the world. I see it everyday, a parade of equally attractive, equally successful women coming into my office every day who would be dying to meet someone like you."
It was a great message to receive at a time when I needed a boost. And great perspective to chew on over the next few days.
Steve ~ I vote for 0%, especially on the company you started post-S, but I understand your desire to chew things over. I'm guessing for the company you sold you can factor in the cost of litigating/mediating vs. just closing the issue.
One question I've never asked you: Do you think your WAW is cordial and friendly just because of her good nature, or do you think she may be aware of your NGS and use that to her advantage? My STBXW often tries to use my desire to "keep the peace" as a subtle form of leverage as we work out our split-up.
What your L said at the end is 100% true. It's not a pick-me-up. It's a fact. I hope you believe it.
One question I've never asked you: Do you think your WAW is cordial and friendly just because of her good nature, or do you think she may be aware of your NGS and use that to her advantage? My STBXW often tries to use my desire to "keep the peace" as a subtle form of leverage as we work out our split-up.
It's hard to know. I think it's a fair question to ask. My gut response would be that I don't think it's conscious or malicious, but I don't think it's zero, either. And further, I don't even know if I'd even blame her for it -- it's my issue.
The other factor here is that both she and I saw very, very ugly divorces between our respective parents, both sets of whom despised each other. We both have said how much we want to avoid that.
Your lawyer says she is entitled to nothing. Emotional support and cohabitation do not make a business partner.
She needs separation to "find herself" but is out on dating sites. Protect yourself.
One question I've never asked you: Do you think your WAW is cordial and friendly just because of her good nature, or do you think she may be aware of your NGS and use that to her advantage? My STBXW often tries to use my desire to "keep the peace" as a subtle form of leverage as we work out our split-up.
It's hard to know. I think it's a fair question to ask. My gut response would be that I don't think it's conscious or malicious, but I don't think it's zero, either. And further, I don't even know if I'd even blame her for it -- it's my issue.
I completely understand.
What you can control is making sure you prioritize your needs. If things can remain cordial, that's great, but it absolutely should not be the priority. She may be trying to meet her needs, in a cordial way (based on her family history), and knows how to accomplish both because you are a NG.
I will also say, when you start standing up more for yourself, you will get a backlash. You really have to be centered and grounded to have the strength and courage to stick with it. I am always fighting my inner nature to want to keep the peace.
Hi all, just wanted to check back in with some journaling.
WAW and I are still working through the separation agreement. I've held my line on what I think is fair relative to the splitting of our assets, but she does not agree. I would love it if she realized that my offering of 15% of the total equity of the company I sold is 15% more than she'd get from a divorce, and that it is an honest representation of how I value the support and the role she played in my life during that time, even though we weren't married. Instead, she views it as less than the 25% I had initially discussed immediately after we were separated, when I was heartbroken and grasping at any straws. Frustrating.
In going through some of our expenses for budget purposes, I noticed a few entries from her at a coffee shop nowhere near her place, and a Venmo of her splitting dinner with a male co-worker. I couldn't help but do some digging, and sure enough, that guy lives across the street from the coffee shop. So either they're seeing each other, or they just co-work together. Either way, I shouldn't have dug into it but I did, and it stung. Not that I expected her to just shut down her life, but I'm sure you can understand that it's never fun to discover that stuff.
We're planning to follow-up when she gets back a newly updated copy of the agreement from her lawyer, after which my lawyer will look at it, make changes, and so on. Before I sign it, I want to have a discussion with her about what's next, how we're feeling, and set my expectations that we need to spend at least one hour a week together -- not a date, but going for a walk, catching up on our lives, leaning into the connection that is obviously still there. She is holding the line here too, she doesn't want to discuss how she's feeling or what's next until the agreement is signed.
Being the logical person I am, when I try to reason this out, it doesn't really add up. If the door really was still open, she would be more communicative around that fact, because then it would make me more amicable to find a resolution. If it wasn't, her moves would be to either lie to me (risking me not believing her, or looking like a terrible person to our mutual friends when it all unwinds) or simply refuse to say anything, leaving me to guess and try to be amicable to hold on to what little is left.
I have a difficult time understanding the balance between standing up for the things that I need and setting boundaries vs. listening to her, validating, and disagreeing but letting it be. How would you respond to that push back?
Anyway, the mindset I'm taking with all of this is that this is 99% headed for D, and that I need to protect myself, and above all not make any decisions trying to influence or grasp for that remaining 1%.
There's a huge part of me that just wants to say "Screw this!" and just file for divorce, throwing the separation agreement aside. But I'm not all the way there yet. In working with my NMMNG counselor, his advice was to hold my own line, and reframe the discussion to whatever concessions I want to give as a gift with no strings attached, one that I would be indifferent to losing if things didn't work out.
All of this is incredibly draining emotionally. As I've said a few times, I do know that my best days are ahead of me, that I've done hard and difficult work confronting my NG tendencies, and that I'm a catch who will be much more successful in the next relationship, whenever that comes. But that doesn't make this process any less painful.
Before I sign it, I want to have a discussion with her about what's next, how we're feeling, and set my expectations that we need to spend at least one hour a week together -- not a date, but going for a walk, catching up on our lives, leaning into the connection that is obviously still there.
No no no no Steve. You are going to try to force her to spend time with you? That's pressure and controlling. Have you learned anything?
Being the logical person I am, when I try to reason this out, it doesn't really add up. If the door really was still open, she would be more communicative around that fact, because then it would make me more amicable to find a resolution. .
Steve the door is closed, shut and locked. I am sorry.
I have a difficult time understanding the balance between standing up for the things that I need and setting boundaries vs. listening to her, validating, and disagreeing but letting it be. How would you respond to that push back? .
Give me an example of push back.
Anyway, the mindset I'm taking with all of this is that this is 99% headed for D, and that I need to protect myself, and above all not make any decisions trying to influence or grasp for that remaining 1%..
Good!
There's a huge part of me that just wants to say "Screw this!" and just file for divorce, throwing the separation agreement aside. .
This is what I chose to do.
She is holding the line here too, she doesn't want to discuss how she's feeling or what's next until the agreement is signed.
She is not telling the truth bc she is working to get the best outcome for herself. She's not with you anymore. Once the agreement is signed it is sayonara. I could be wrong but if she cared about you maybe she'd find time to go to dinner with you and not this other dude.
I'd abandon this separation agreement and divorce agreement altogether and go no contact. I definitely wouldn't push to see her 1 hour per week. Then if you want to wait it out and see if she comes back or files, go through your lawyer.
I don't think her emotional support and cohabitation means she gets part of your company, but if you want to give 15% that is certainly your choice.
So I think my message was somewhat unclear, let me try to clear it up:
I know many of you disagree, but the number that I feel is fair and ethically correct to offer to WAS in regards to the equity is 15%. Again, I know you disagree but I have to separate the person now from the person then; she went above and beyond for me during a very stressful time, and although we weren't married, we were living together and she played a very large role in keeping me emotionally balanced during an immensely stressful time. This is a number I am comfortable with giving, even if she immediately takes it and walks.
Second, when I say that I want to see her at least once a week, this is a part of the condition of me signing this agreement. This is my boundary. She has said that she needs this agreement in place in order to move forward; that is her position. My position is, I will sign this agreement only under terms that I feel are fair (see above), and after it is signed, my expectations are that we meet weekly to ascertain what is next, or else I am done. That's my position.
In either scenario, like you I expect her to immediately walk after the separation agreement is signed, as you are correct that I have nothing to point to that leads me to believe otherwise. Therefore I am only going to offer her what I am comfortable losing in the event that she immediately walks. She doesn't want 15%? Fine, take 0% instead. She doesn't want to sit down and work on things? Fine, I'm out.
Second, when I say that I want to see her at least once a week, this is a part of the condition of me signing this agreement. This is my boundary. She has said that she needs this agreement in place in order to move forward; that is her position. My position is, I will sign this agreement only under terms that I feel are fair (see above), and after it is signed, my expectations are that we meet weekly to ascertain what is next, or else I am done. That's my position. .
Steve sounds more like manipulation to me then a boundary.
If she felt you were manipulative and controlling in the relationship I think I can see why.
Second, when I say that I want to see her at least once a week, this is a part of the condition of me signing this agreement. This is my boundary. She has said that she needs this agreement in place in order to move forward; that is her position. My position is, I will sign this agreement only under terms that I feel are fair (see above), and after it is signed, my expectations are that we meet weekly to ascertain what is next, or else I am done. That's my position. .
Steve sounds more like manipulation to me then a boundary.
If she felt you were manipulative and controlling in the relationship I think I can see why.
I guess I don't understand. She's said that she needs this agreement in place in order to determine how we move forward. How is that possible unless we're actually getting together and working through things, having those tough conversations?
I don't want to live in the ambiguity and uncertainty anymore. Without this boundary, I'd potentially be signing up for even more ambiguity. Okay, we signed this agreement. Now what? More months of basically NC?
I'm having a really hard time squaring all of this up. NMMNG tells me I need to be clear about what I need, and hold the line on those things. Wisdom on here is to give her even more space than she asks for - which is exactly what I've done so far. Those two ideas seem in opposition.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand but I do very much appreciate everyone's candor.
I think it comes off as manipulative and controlling too. A boundary is about your actions, not someone else's. In her position, I'd think you were trying to buy my interaction with you with money from the company.
When she says she needs the agreement in place to determine how we move forward, she's probably trying to manipulate you a bit too. So you're locked together in this stalemate.
NMMNG is about being clear on what you need, yes. But your needs don't automatically translate into a demand for someone else.
You need an hour of her time once per week. She's saying no. So you find some other way to meet that need, and you do whatever you think is best or what is legally required of you with your company.
She needs the agreement in place. You either make the agreement, or you don't, and she gets to cope with that unmet need in whatever way she sees fit.
I guess I don't understand. She's said that she needs this agreement in place in order to determine how we move forward. .
See right here she is manipulating you. You are a smart guy. Do you really need a separation agreement to work on the marriage?
How is that possible unless we're actually getting together and working through things, having those tough conversations? .
I 100% agree but it can't be because you force it. It has to be her idea. That's the only way it works out.
I don't want to live in the ambiguity and uncertainty anymore. Without this boundary, I'd potentially be signing up for even more ambiguity. Okay, we signed this agreement. Now what? More months of basically NC? .
Steve you are signing a separation agreement that means you are separated. It may lead to recon and it may lead to D. By signing this you are agreeing to uncertainty and more limbo.
I'm having a really hard time squaring all of this up. NMMNG tells me I need to be clear about what I need, and hold the line on those things. Wisdom on here is to give her even more space than she asks for - which is exactly what I've done so far. Those two ideas seem in opposition..
Fine. Honey I love you and adore you and would love to work together on the marriage. I love myself too much to not stand by while you are on dating apps and dating another men. This does not work for me. Either we work on the marriage together or we D and go our separate ways.
I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand but I do very much appreciate everyone's candor.
I know Steve this is difficult and certainly not easy.
Do not let her bring you to your knees. I'm not saying divorce her now, but just exit her crazy world. Take your respect back. Turn the BS meter on. Your attitude can be 100% better. I know you're hurting, choose happiness.
And if you want to give her 15%, good for you.
Second, when I say that I want to see her at least once a week, this is a part of the condition of me signing this agreement. This is my boundary.
Steve, reading this I was definitely smacked with--"Wow! You're paying her to spend time with you. That looks desperate and controlling." Boundaries protect you. They don't control others.
NMMNG is about being clear on what you need, yes. But your needs don't automatically translate into a demand for someone else.
Allison breaks it down very well.
You can be clear that you'll only eat at Brazilian restaurants that serve Caiparinhas, but you don't want to be that guy who tries to argue and force a local Brazilian restaurant to serve you a Caiparihnha.
I'm having a really hard time squaring all of this up. NMMNG tells me I need to be clear about what I need, and hold the line on those things. Wisdom on here is to give her even more space than she asks for - which is exactly what I've done so far. Those two ideas seem in opposition.
Well, do you want to gift her 15% of your company? If yes, then do so, no strings or conditions.
Have you told her you want to spend 1hr/week with her? Great--you've been clear about your needs! What did she say? Accept her decision. Do whatever you need to accept that reality. Whatever you were hoping to get from her you will have to figure out how to fulfill on your own or with somebody else.
Thanks all for the input. I definitely didn't intend it as paying her to spend time with me, but I can understand how it might come across that way. I just view it as taking a leadership role and setting up a plan for how we actually address the issues.
So if I can sort of summarize this, I've got three options:
1. Sign the separation agreement, but only with my eyes 100% wide open: whatever she gets in the agreement should be considered a gift, and I need to be fully comfortable and accepting of that. Further, I can make a request about how we should go about what's next, but that is fully contingent on her and should not be tied to my signing of the agreement, nor should I be upset if the request is denied.
2. Say "screw it", file for divorce. Let the chips fall where they may, but walk away with my head held as high as it can be given the scenario.
3. Punt everything, go NC. I don't have to do #1 or #2; for as much as I hate this uncertainty and limbo, I can choose to simply focus on myself and my continued progress.
Again to be clear, none of this has happened yet. She will get a revised separation agreement back from her lawyer, we'll discuss the percentages again, and that's where we'll be.
Hi Steve,
I would only point out your grouping. If giving 15% of your company is what you feel she deserves and what makes you feel good, why do you only plan to do that if you don't divorce and if you ask to meet weekly? I believe each of these choices are independent. Divorce typically involves a settlement just like separation.
Choice #1 - Push for a separation settlement, push for a divorce settlement, or don't push at all?
Choice #2 - Gift her 15% of your new company?
Choice #3 - Express your want to meet weekly?
Choice #4 - Go NC unless essential or she wants to R?
Choice #5 - Detach and focus on you?
Just doing some journaling.
As much as I had to admit it, this is as down as I've been quite in awhile. I'm lucky to have a good support group of friends and a resource like this, but it's definitely been a slog as I don't quite feel like myself and I'm having trouble just going about my day as normal. Anyone who has been through the valley knows the feeling - like the days just take forever.
I started re-reading NMMNG again, because typically when I'm down it reminds me of the progress I've made and fills me with confidence that whatever's next will be much more fruitful for me. I also put some post-its around my place with reminders like "You are strong!" just to give me an extra boost.
One of my close friends thinks that the reason why I'm in this funk is because I know it's over, and I know what I have to do but I just can't bring myself to do it. It's hard to disagree. I think if anyone else in the world came to me describing the scenario I'm in, I'd tell them to cut the cord and turn the page.
Is this a person I really want in my life? A person who left? A person who took a year to get the separation agreement in place, knowing how much the situation was hurting me? A person who couldn't even show enough respect to acknowledge the birthday of the person they were still married to?
I do believe it's this limbo and uncertainty which is doing all of the damage. When I left my job last year, I was hurt but also excited in a way -- I was now free to start a new company and get back to doing what I loved. I haven't been able to have that moment with this sitch. I guess it's coming soon.
One of my close friends thinks that the reason why I'm in this funk is because I know it's over, and I know what I have to do but I just can't bring myself to do it. It's hard to disagree. I think if anyone else in the world came to me describing the scenario I'm in, I'd tell them to cut the cord and turn the page.
I do believe it's this limbo and uncertainty which is doing all of the damage. When I left my job last year, I was hurt but also excited in a way -- I was now free to start a new company and get back to doing what I loved. I haven't been able to have that moment with this sitch. I guess it's coming soon.
I reviewed your last two threads and agree with your friend and Steve85. It's been over a year--limbo (doing nothing, legal separation) is not getting you to R. D and moving on seems wise. Not because your wife is evil, just because life is limited and you've already gifted her a year of limbo. A+ for effort. As you say cutting the chord is painful, and no guarantees, but therein lies hope and possibilities.
I love LH's words, combined with the action (always actions) of serving her for D--"Honey I love you and adore you and would love to work together on the marriage. I love myself too much to not stand by while you are on dating apps and dating another men. This does not work for me. Either we work on the marriage together or we D and go our separate ways." That sounds like the kick-ass, high-value, No More Mr. Nice Guy type you've been trying to get to. Can't wait to see you get there. Obviously, you should only do that when you can sit with that choice for a couple weeks and are okay with a D outcome.
I like that saying of LH's that Cwarrior quoted. Personally, I decided that I was not going to be the one to file in my sitch. I thought about it many times, mostly as a way to get her attention. Ultimately, I knew that I had been a very bad husband and that I repeatedly drove my wife away. I never once imagined she would go full WW, but that just shows my arrogance and I definitely reaped what I sowed.
I do believe it's this limbo and uncertainty which is doing all of the damage
I actually think it's your internal discourse that is doing the damage. Uncertainty is abound in life. Since this uncertainty isn't in your control, it's neither good nor bad.
Did you promise her through good times and bad or was it until you grew apart type vows? Would keeping your promise be something you can be proud of and do you want to say "I fulfilled my promise"?
That said, I still really like this
That sounds like the kick-ass, high-value, No More Mr. Nice Guy type you've been trying to get to.
I like that saying of LH's that Cwarrior quoted. Personally, I decided that I was not going to be the one to file in my sitch. I thought about it many times, mostly as a way to get her attention. Ultimately, I knew that I had been a very bad husband and that I repeatedly drove my wife away. I never once imagined she would go full WW, but that just shows my arrogance and I definitely reaped what I sowed.
Do you mind if I ask how you eventually came to peace with that?
I don't think I was an awful husband, but I've certainly come to grips with how my NGS severely affected things. I'm glad that I'm working on it and am making strides on it, but I still feel lots of guilt.
I actually think it's your internal discourse that is doing the damage. Uncertainty is abound in life. Since this uncertainty isn't in your control, it's neither good nor bad.
I can buy this. As you can probably tell from my posts over the threads, I've never been able to do a good job of controlling the narrative of my own thoughts. Even now I struggle with the idea that I'm going to OK, that the best days are ahead of me. I know that's true, but it's hard for me to use that to shut out the present feelings. I guess that's got a lot to do with the above, and not being able to forgive myself.
Did you promise her through good times and bad or was it until you grew apart type vows? Would keeping your promise be something you can be proud of and do you want to say "I fulfilled my promise"?
I have my vows saved somewhere on this computer, but I don't really want to pull them up because it'll hurt too much to read them. But I am 100% sure that I said that I'd be there for her, always, no matter what, and never give up. Again, I feel lots of shame for the actions that led to the S, but I can surely say that I did not give up.
Hi all, just doing some journaling. I'm trying to be more open and communicative with my thoughts.
In addition to my NMMNG work, I'm also doing a course with Dr. Glover around a concept he calls the ruminating brain. Like a lot of other NMMNG concepts, this one too fits me like a T. I overanalyze, I rehash things, I go over past mistakes and beat myself up for them, and on and on. The key takeaway from the course so far is that people who have this brain type, their brain is wired to feed them distorted representations of things; the key is to simply be an observer of what your brain is telling you, but not necessarily a believer. So in my case when my brain is telling me that I'm a bad person for the mistakes I made, or that I'm broken and will forever be like this, it's on me to recognize that pattern, call it out, and simply observe it passing through without letting it internalize and be accepted as truth.
All of this is to say that I think this experience has been uniquely hard on me, one because of my negative self-image and tendency to ruminate and two because of the elongated and stunted way that things have been proceeding. On the former, I'm working on it but I have to work against 38 years of default behaviors, relying on external approval, avoiding conflict, and being my own harshest critic. On the latter, well, that train is coming into the station very soon.
At this point I'm mentally prepared for D to be the end result. There's nothing for me to point to otherwise. That doesn't mean I'm happy - if anything, it hurts me deeply - but I have to start to accept that it's the overwhelmingly likely outcome. We'll get to some place where we're agreed on how things split, and then that's that.
I've had a few friends tell me that the only way out is through - there's no way to shortcut it, you have to feel what you feel and grieve. For as much as I'm sure that I'll find love again, that I'm an attractive person with many good qualities, that I'm strong and brave for having the courage to accept my faults and work on them, it's still very hard for me to forgive myself for what happened to the M. To be honest, I'm not sure how anyone does it. It's fairly black and white to me; a woman loved me deeply, someone I was insanely attracted to and meant the world to me, and while I'm not 100% at fault, there is a litany of things I regret and feel shame about, and now she's gone. How does anyone ever get to peace with that?
When I got let go from my corporate job, it was painful but I also remember walking out of those doors excited too -- it meant that I could go ahead and start my next company. I had always wanted to, but didn't because we were a family unit and it was necessary for me to optimize for salary, benefits, and so on. But with the S and with this new freedom, I could finally do it. I'm hoping that once this door is finally closed, I'll have a similar reckoning: there are many other doors that are now open for me to walk through.
Day to day, it's hard. We live five minutes from each other, so even though we rarely run into each other, it's always possible when I go outside. Our finances are shared. I don't want to be surrounded by it, reminded constantly about it, but I am. That certainly doesn't help my ruminating brain. But again I also know that the only way out is through - running from it isn't going to help. When my Mom passed away when I was 23, my response was to upend my entire life and move to SF...where I just had the same problems, in a different town.
Anyway, no real requests for advice or help, just trying to work on my emotional vocabulary and speaking to how I'm feeling. I'm lonely, I'm scared, but I know I'm going to be OK and I know that I'm going to be someone's dream catch. It's just going to take time.
Hi SteveS,
Some serious introspection there. Great stuff.
To be honest, I'm not sure how anyone does it. It's fairly black and white to me; a woman loved me deeply, someone I was insanely attracted to and meant the world to me, and while I'm not 100% at fault, there is a litany of things I regret and feel shame about, and now she's gone. How does anyone ever get to peace with that?
You're human, steve. You and I both made many mistakes. Your wife, you, my wife, I all had difficult upbringings. We didn't have great role models, we didn't go to school and get a Relationships degree. We accept we did the best we could at one point in our life with the tools we had available to us. We forgive but we do not forget. We learn from those mistakes and become better people.
I like that saying of LH's that Cwarrior quoted. Personally, I decided that I was not going to be the one to file in my sitch. I thought about it many times, mostly as a way to get her attention. Ultimately, I knew that I had been a very bad husband and that I repeatedly drove my wife away. I never once imagined she would go full WW, but that just shows my arrogance and I definitely reaped what I sowed.
Do you mind if I ask how you eventually came to peace with that?
I don't think I was an awful husband, but I've certainly come to grips with how my NGS severely affected things. I'm glad that I'm working on it and am making strides on it, but I still feel lots of guilt.
Yes. I simply acknowledge my mistakes and said this is the consequence of my choices. I promised for good and bad times and that my sitch was indeed a bad time. I had yelled at my W how vows only matter for the hard times. About a month later I realized that I should take my own advice. It was my pain, attachment, and emotion that kept from realizing this instantly.
I actually think it's your internal discourse that is doing the damage. Uncertainty is abound in life. Since this uncertainty isn't in your control, it's neither good nor bad.
I can buy this. As you can probably tell from my posts over the threads, I've never been able to do a good job of controlling the narrative of my own thoughts. Even now I struggle with the idea that I'm going to OK, that the best days are ahead of me. I know that's true, but it's hard for me to use that to shut out the present feelings. I guess that's got a lot to do with the above, and not being able to forgive myself.
Marcus Aurelius imagined 2,000 years ago how the earth would look from above. All the busy people running around doing all these insignificant little things. He used this thought to gain perspective, and I truly didn't tell the story very well. It's been a while since I picked the book up.
Did you promise her through good times and bad or was it until you grew apart type vows? Would keeping your promise be something you can be proud of and do you want to say "I fulfilled my promise"?
I have my vows saved somewhere on this computer, but I don't really want to pull them up because it'll hurt too much to read them. But I am 100% sure that I said that I'd be there for her, always, no matter what, and never give up. Again, I feel lots of shame for the actions that led to the S, but I can surely say that I did not give up.
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I 100% get that. I won't go read my thread from the start b/c it seems like it would drag up those old memories like you are afraid of. My vows were Catholic vows. I can still recite them, being the good Catholic boy that I am. So then you can see how I applied my vows and took peace in them. You can honor your vows or you can say "this relationship is toast". I don't think you get to do both while keeping a clear conscious. Hopefully no one takes me for some holy roller either, I've made a ton of mistakes in my life.
I've had a few friends tell me that the only way out is through - there's no way to shortcut it, you have to feel what you feel and grieve. For as much as I'm sure that I'll find love again, that I'm an attractive person with many good qualities, that I'm strong and brave for having the courage to accept my faults and work on them, it's still very hard for me to forgive myself for what happened to the M. To be honest, I'm not sure how anyone does it. It's fairly black and white to me; a woman loved me deeply, someone I was insanely attracted to and meant the world to me, and while I'm not 100% at fault, there is a litany of things I regret and feel shame about, and now she's gone. How does anyone ever get to peace with that?
SteveS ~
I understand your struggle. I used to think I'd never work through it. I have come to peace with my D, but it literally took my STBXW threatening to move away with our children. You don't have the advantage of such high conflict. I don't think it's easy to let go when you don't have that extra push.
I sense you continue to self-flagellate (which I did for a long time due to my NGS). I encourage you to deal with the shame. It is a toxic emotion, and is going to block you from getting through this. I say this from experience.
It became a lot easier for me when I could say "I did some things I regret" rather than "I am fundamentally a flawed person". Then I could work through my 50%, her 50%, and start to sort out things more clearly.
Finally, I know how it is from your position when everyone is telling you you live in a great city, there are plenty of opportunities, blah blah blah, the standard "plenty of fish in the sea" speech, right?
NO... that is not the point. The point is, having worked through your NGS and a difficult MR break-up, you, SteveS, are going to be fully equipped to go out and have an incredibly fulfilling and happy life. And it's not going to depend on your partner (although that person may augment your happiness). There are infinite possibilities -- do you realize how exciting that is for a young, successful, sensitive, thoughtful person living in one of the most dynamic places in the world?!
OK enough pep talk.
Hang in there.
I may have mentioned this before, but in addition to re-reading NMMNG as necessary, I've also been participating in some classes held by Dr. Glover as well as working specifically with a NG coach. it's been immensely helpful.
(If anyone would like the contact information, happy to share.)
Given what I've been struggling with - and with UC's wise words in my sails - our last session was about guilt, shame, and forgiveness. During the session I like to make little notes to myself in order to remember the key points but also as a reminder to flesh out and elucidate my understanding when I've had more time to let it sink in.
I wanted to share my longer thoughts on this session with everyone, first to get some feedback from the larger crowd and incorporate their perspective, but second because it might be helpful for someone who is struggling with similar issues to read.
--
Is it guilt or is it shame?
It is important to separate the two. Guilt is an internalization of doing something wrong, a natural response rooted in humility and apology. It is healthy, and says, "I made a mistake and I apologize." Shame is adjacent, but much more personally harmful. Whereas both acknowledge fault and implicitly demonstrate intent to make amends, guilt acknowledges mistakes as a part of the imperfect human condition, while shame considers the mistake a part of an overall pattern of flawed brokenness. Guilt can be healthy if addressed with an empathetic, open heart and used as a learning experience; shame causes fear and staticness, leaving you not only more prone to repeat the same mistake, but locked inside of a self-damaging cycle that is very difficult to break out of.
The Importance Of Forgiving Yourself
Forgiveness is a wonderful gift, and sadly one that most people are much more likely to bestow upon others than themselves. How many times have you raked yourself over the coals for a mistake that you made, while if a close friend came to you, upset, confessing the same mistake, you'd reassure them and remind them of all the good they bring into the world? It's a simple lesson: treat yourself with kindness and compassion, just as you would anyone else that you love. Forgiveness given to you - from yourself or from others - does not mean that the offending act didn't happen, or that it didn't have impact. It is simply an acknowledgement that as a human, we make mistakes despite our best intentions. Making a mistake or hurting someone inadvertently is very different than doing so with intention; the former is forgivable, is human, and can be re-framed as a part of a larger growth story.
One small thing about my M that I can clearly recall is a handful of times where my WAW would be very hard on herself about something, and I'd stop her and say, "Hey, don't say that. You're talking about someone I love!" Of course, the internal dialogue of the NGS often says things that we'd never say about someone else, or accept to be said about someone we care about. Stay on top of this tendency, and love yourself.
I wasn't OK, but I am now
As a continuation of forgiving yourself, you might occasionally find yourself at a crossroads where you look back on past actions with remorse and a heavy heart. Remember: there is no shame in having made mistakes; that is human. There is shame however in not learning from them, and locking yourself into a shame cycle where your self-image as a broken person causes you to say static. If you commit to growth, from learning from your mistakes, to making amends for those you may have hurt, and to forgiving yourself -- there is no shame. Only growth. And with growth as a shield, you can start to re-frame that remorse as a time in your life when you were still figuring things out. You weren't OK then, but you are now.
Expectations/Resentment
Resentment, put simply, is a relationship killer. If left unchecked, it is an open wound that will only grow further infected, growing in size and seriousness until it is out of control. Very few instances of resentment are simply forgotten, and an equally small amount remain in quarantine, not spilling over and affecting other aspects of the relationship.
The #1 creator of resentment is expectations that went unfulfilled. Those expectations could be said or unsaid, implicit or explicit, one-time or a recurring theme; it doesn't matter. When your partner is expecting one thing and receives another, or worse, nothing at all, it is damaging and needs to be addressed.
Ironically, many of the most basic expectations, the ones that are consistently understood as a component of a healthy relationship, are the ones that are most frequently ignored and therefore ultimately cause the most damage. Think about what is assumed and goes without said as an expectation of your partner: you expect trust. You expect safety. You expect respect, care, and loyalty. And often, those are intertwined - you cannot have safety without trust, you cannot have loyalty without safety.
This is why for something as basic of trust, you must take a hard line, just as an alcoholic must approach alcohol with a very specific and very measured plan of action. The slippery slope is just too steep - it's far too easy to extrapolate what else your partner might be lying about; after all, if they are willing to lie about something small, who knows what other lies they might be telling?
This is not to say that you will be honest 100% of the time, without ever taking a misstep. That's impossible; we are human, not robots. But whether it is the story of Chernobyl or just about any high-profile scandal you can think of, it's always the cover-up so much more than it is the crime. Furthermore, there's a great silver living to this mistake: if you do mess up, imagine how much closer it will bring your partner to you if you show vulnerability, show contrition, and show character by owning up to the mistake. Not only do you avoid the resentment that inevitably comes as the lie unravels, but you have signaled to your partner your intentions as an honorable man, one that be relied upon and trusted with their safety.
Thank you for sharing all this information, Steve.
Your post distilled a lot of the key takeaways that I regularly think about from NMMNG, the ones that have driven my self-improvement this past year and made me really excited about my future.
Some personal thoughts I have:
1. NGs are vulnerable to accepting their partner's views as THE truth... which leads to further shame. And we justify it by thinking we are extra empathetic and compassionate. I actually think NGs need to tone down the validation more than DB would advise because of this.
2. Working on my own shame has been a huge step in my self-growth this past year.
3. Expectations in a relationship lead to resentment. Expectations on yourself lead to unhappiness as well. Like you I was a high-achiever and I think I used achievements as a way to feed my self-esteem, to an unhealthy degree. Now I work a lot on self-compassion, and accepting that I don't need to judge myself against some impossible standard.
4. I don't feel like my resentment led us down this dark path. My W harbored a lot of resentment and still does. She was unwilling to work through it in two round of MC. I can't do anything about that. I think it was the first of many obstacles we would have had to overcome. I had some resentment (SSM, feeling like she had zero interest in me while I was supposed to be there to support her 100%) that manifested in some passive-aggressive comments at times, but I would have laid it aside to work on things.
I'm in a place where I never really thought I'd be - I'm now giving some serious consideration to filing for D and getting on with my life.
In terms of how I feel, I'm very ambivalent. On one hand, I do still very much want to work on things. My physical attraction to her is still very much there, and as I've beaten into the ground on this thread, the rapport is as well. It absolutely hurts, and it makes me sad and upset to think about. I can't pretend that it doesn't. On the other hand, it's clear from her actions that she isn't in the same place, even if I take her at her word about the separation agreement.
Heart wants one thing, even if that one thing is 1% likely to be the case. I feel like I've burned through the last walls of denial that I put up: she dragged the separation agreement discussion out for a year because she didn't want to deal with it, and she only really wants it to be in place so that she gets the best terms out of the D. Actions show someone's true intent, and her true intent seems to be to D.
So I guess knowing all of that, my impulse to D is to take back control and power, because I don't think it is fair or right to be put in this situation by her, and because I can't fully move on unless the door is closed. But there's also a voice in the back of my head that is saying, "Look, see how this plays out. Expect D. Mentally and legally prepare for it. Only sign the separation agreement if the terms are what you'd be comfortable with if she walked out the door the next day. But see how it plays out."
I'm also back and forth on how I would do that if that's what I ultimately decided to cut the cord myself. Should I just file, serve, and then basically block her across everything, only communicating through my lawyer? Or should I be a little more human about it, tell her my intention, and tell her that her choice is binary: start working on this, or I'm gone?
Sigh. Have to keep reminding myself: my best days are ahead of me. I'm strong, and I'm going to be fine.
I like this:
But there's also a voice in the back of my head that is saying, "Look, see how this plays out. Expect D. Mentally and legally prepare for it. Only sign the separation agreement if the terms are what you'd be comfortable with if she walked out the door the next day. But see how it plays out."
But I'm not sure about this:
So I guess knowing all of that, my impulse to D is to take back control and power, because I don't think it is fair or right to be put in this situation by her, and because I can't fully move on unless the door is closed.
Some people don't move on even after a divorce. Moving on is a process you do. The door is closed when you decide, and sometimes people decide the door is closed and then change their minds. My wife did that very thing.
Let's say you file, what happens next and what is your vision for life moving forward?
it's clear from her actions that she isn't in the same place, even if I take her at her word about the separation agreement.
Her actions also show that she is not ready to file, or else she would have. It doesn't take a year to do that.
Some people don't move on even after a divorce. Moving on is a process you do. The door is closed when you decide, and sometimes people decide the door is closed and then change their minds. My wife did that very thing.
Let's say you file, what happens next and what is your vision for life moving forward?
Thanks for your thoughts. I think where I'm coming from is just sort of how I am - I don't give up, I try to find any way to work a problem and hold on way too long in the process. It's only when there is strong, clear closure that I can turn my attention to something else.
I don't think much changes if I file. I continue focusing on my work, and on getting emotionally healthy through therapy, coaching and meditation. I'm not going to rush back into anything, not until I feel that I am in a place of emotional capacity to allow someone else in.
Her actions also show that she is not ready to file, or else she would have. It doesn't take a year to do that.
Sure, but I don't attribute that to ambivalence on her part. I attribute it to just not wanting to deal with it, and wanting to get the separation agreement in place so that she gets what she feels is fair.
Could she change her mind? Sure. But I just no longer believe that there a way this works out.
Where I do have some hesitation is that I want to make sure that I decide this with a clear mind, not influenced by a conversation with a friend or on an emotional whim. Right now I am hurting and I am down because I am burning off the denial; you could probably say that choosing to file is an angry response to that. So maybe just letting it settle for awhile is fine.
Steve ~
I'm curious why you say you have great rapport with her?
This "file or don't file" dilemma is tough.
I suggest you ignore why she hasn't filed. It doesn't matter. It could be for any number of reasons:
- leaving the door open
- stringing you out to negotiate
- doesn't want to deal with the hassle of doing it
- doesn't want to be the "bad guy" (see, it was SteveS who gave up!)
Forget why, keep focusing on you.
Steve ~
I'm curious why you say you have great rapport with her?
So, it's anecdotal, but every time we do meet up to discuss what's going on, we end up actually discussing things for 15 minutes and the rest just catching up. She makes me laugh so easily, and vice versa. As an example, she has some anxiety around going to the doctor, where she gets really worried about taking her blood pressure. It's irrational as hell, but there's just something about it that I find charming and we shared a nice moment between us when we were last talking about it. It's just a part of who she is. I don't know, I just read so many threads on here about people who can't stand each other and have nothing to say to each other; that's just not us.
Don't get me wrong, I don't read anything more into it than I think we'd be able to be good friends if we decided that's what we wanted. But if in the unlikely event we tried to reconcile, starting from a place where we clearly still get along and appreciate the other person seems like a good foundation to work from.
I don't know, I just read so many threads on here about people who can't stand each other and have nothing to say to each other; that's just not us.
Well Steve I can't speak for everyone when I was married for 2 years it was the best time of my life. Things were effortless before the pressures of raising children etc. It's not surprising you feel that way. Now having said that, the fact your W is chucking it after two years means she has some serious issues with her or you more then likely displayed some very serious disturbing behavior. It's rare to see people end it all after a couple years without serious issues.
Steve,
I can really relate to the rapport you feel with your wife. Me and my wife are the same way.
I too see a lot of sitchs where the couples cant stand each other. Its not me and my wife either. We've always been each others biggest source of laughter. Since the whole thing started we've only seen each other once or twice but even those times it seems like we would always end up laughing at some point about something or another. Which is quite crazy considering the circumstances. I dont read anything into it either because actions tell you a lot more than words but I totally get where you're coming form there.
I don't know, I just read so many threads on here about people who can't stand each other and have nothing to say to each other; that's just not us.
Well Steve I can't speak for everyone when I was married for 2 years it was the best time of my life. Things were effortless before the pressures of raising children etc. It's not surprising you feel that way. Now having said that, the fact your W is chucking it after two years means she has some serious issues with her or you more then likely displayed some very serious disturbing behavior. It's rare to see people end it all after a couple years without serious issues.
Oh, for sure. My NG behavior was a huge, huge part of it. And it certainly wasn't all me, she brought her anxiety and intimacy issues to the table. So it wasn't all sunshine and roses.
I guess it is somewhat incongruous. She chose to leave after a little over two years, which would certainly imply some big issues. But if she thought I was emotionally abusive or a terrible person, then she would have immediately filed and we wouldn't have the rapport that we do.
I guess it doesn't really matter. As UC said, it's probably not all that productive to spend time thinking about why she's acting the way she is.
Steve,
You seem like a great guy man. Been reading through your sitch.
I agree its probably not productive to think about why W is doing what shes doing. Every time I do it in my sitch it throws me into a rabbit hole that never leads anywhere but feeling depressed.
My wife also left after two years. Its a tough thing to understand. I think thats where it helps realizing we may never know why but accepting whats happened and realizing we can only control ourselves. ( This is also advice for myself because I'm struggling with all of it.)
I guess it doesn't really matter. As UC said, it's probably not all that productive to spend time thinking about why she's acting the way she is.
Steve the challenge for you is to embrace that you may never know exactly what happened with W. She may never know what happened either, and you need to accept that on face value. Some things can't be explained.
This can create tremendous anxiety because you can't guarantee that it won't happen again.
So what can you do? First, figure out how to be okay not being in a relationship. If you do that, you don't need the relationship, you're there because you want to be. Secondly, figure out how to "bring it" and be a partner only a fool would leave. If you do that, and you know you're bringing it, then if they leave you it is their loss and you know that, and don't have any regrets.
You can get there, and you'll be fine.
"Having your needs met" is a tricky business. Just like complaints, there are things your spouse should do for you, and there are things you should be able to do for yourself.
If you take something you should be able to do for yourself, like have healthy self-esteem, and assign your partner responsibility for that, it causes things to start to break down.
i.e. "I need you to tell me you love me and buy me a gift every day so I feel good about myself" may be an unspoken expectation of a low self-esteem spouse.
If the partner fails to deliver, they'll get increasingly resentful and blame the fact that they don't feel good about themselves on their spouse for not meeting their needs.
If an impartial judge was involved, they might be able to right away point out that those expectations are unreasonable, and really the person needs to do the work to feel good about themselves without a daily "I love you" and a gift.
Sadly such judges are in short supply and generally unwelcome. We can do what we can to provide for our spouses' needs, but we need to stop short of becoming emotional caretakers, or codependent crutches in order to maintain healthy boundaries.
Unfortunately this dynamic tends to play out unspoken, and with low self-awareness, which is why we find ourselves here, and why marriage is so difficult!
The majority of the battle is getting emotionally healthy ourselves, and that is firmly within our control.
This is a one-sided description of the dynamic that's going on. The presumption is that the husband is happy and having his needs met while this is going on, but that's rarely the case. Both happiness and misery are contagious.
So what can you do? First, figure out how to be okay not being in a relationship. If you do that, you don't need the relationship, you're there because you want to be. Secondly, figure out how to "bring it" and be a partner only a fool would leave. If you do that, and you know you're bringing it, then if they leave you it is their loss and you know that, and don't have any regrets.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Am I "okay" not being in relationship? Sure. Being single is better than being in an unhappy relationship that isn't working, every time. I get to do what I want, eat what I want, go where I want, and focus on my needs.
With that said - and this is probably exacerbated by the virus - it's also very lonely for me right now. I'm not seeing my friends as much nor am I going to the office, so my levels of just general human interaction are way off. I'm also generally someone who enjoys the pure companionship and partnership of a relationship quite a bit, so not having someone to share a common life with has been a tough adjustment. But I absolutely agree that now isn't the time for me to go jumping into something else. This is the time for me to keep working on myself and doubling down on the great progress I've made.
There's a weird irony to this, which is that the S has forced me to really confront and work on my issues (NGS, etc.), but I'll never get a chance to apply those to the M that was damaged by those issues. That's a tough one to get over for me, because I really do believe that I'm a different person and that things that were working would still work and the things that weren't, I now have answers for. It doesn't help that she lives five minutes away, and there's a chance I run into her every single time I step outside.
Anyway, in tactical news, my lawyer advised me to file for divorce in order to stop the accrual of shared assets (ie: the continuing growth of my new company), but only serve her papers if that's what I truly want. I have 120 days to do so. To say that I'm ambivalent is an understatement. I don't believe in ultimatums, but that feels what it's coming down to - either she works on this, or we D.
There's a weird irony to this, which is that the S has forced me to really confront and work on my issues (NGS, etc.), but I'll never get a chance to apply those to the M that was damaged by those issues.
How are you so sure you will NEVER get a chance to show your W your new changes?
I don't believe in ultimatums, but that feels what it's coming down to - either she works on this, or we D.
Sounds more like a boundary and not an ultimatum. You will not be in a marriage that doesn't include sex, intimacy, support etc. etc. etc
SteveS ~
Have you tried virtual calls with your friends? I do this from time to time to combat the loneliness.
I also wish I had the chance to apply my NGS lessons to my MR. Well... actually in my case I'm happy at this point to be moving on. But I understand where you are coming from. This is how life works... we grow and learn and can't go back and change things.
I concur with your L. Perhaps now you have some insight into why she hasn't filed? I don't know, but I assure you that you do not fully understand what your WAW is thinking.
What I wouldn't do is make an ultimatum. That's an attempt to control.
[quote=LH19]
Anyway, in tactical news, my lawyer advised me to file for divorce in order to stop the accrual of shared assets (ie: the continuing growth of my new company), but only serve her papers if that's what I truly want. I have 120 days to do so. To say that I'm ambivalent is an understatement. I don't believe in ultimatums, but that feels what it's coming down to - either she works on this, or we D.
You be creative if you need to. You can always take out the value she accrues in the new company from the amount you thought she deserved in the old company in which she has no legal right to. Don't let this hang you up.
There's a weird irony to this, which is that the S has forced me to really confront and work on my issues (NGS, etc.), but I'll never get a chance to apply those to the M that was damaged by those issues. That's a tough one to get over for me, because I really do believe that I'm a different person and that things that were working would still work and the things that weren't, I now have answers for. It doesn't help that she lives five minutes away, and there's a chance I run into her every single time I step outside.
That is out of your hands so IMO don't worry about it.
What is open up in NYC? No events, bars, etc? Can you just go hang with friends and make some food? Any new hobbies? Get a smoker and start doing that. It takes time and attention.
How are you so sure you will NEVER get a chance to show your W your new changes?
I'm not. I'm sure she sees it to some degree already. But I'm trying to be very careful relative to my expectations, and expect that things won't work out.
Sounds more like a boundary and not an ultimatum. You will not be in a marriage that doesn't include sex, intimacy, support etc. etc. etc
I have a heard time understanding the difference. Can you elucidate it for me?
SteveS ~
Have you tried virtual calls with your friends? I do this from time to time to combat the loneliness.
I also wish I had the chance to apply my NGS lessons to my MR. Well... actually in my case I'm happy at this point to be moving on. But I understand where you are coming from. This is how life works... we grow and learn and can't go back and change things.
I concur with your L. Perhaps now you have some insight into why she hasn't filed? I don't know, but I assure you that you do not fully understand what your WAW is thinking.
What I wouldn't do is make an ultimatum. That's an attempt to control.
Yeah, I do a couple of Zoom calls a week, and I typically will see friends once or twice week as there's a few outdoor bars that have patios and backyards set up.
As far as why W hasn't filed, I guess it's ultimately somewhat irrelevant. It is what it is, she hasn't done it yet. Everything she's done over the past year has been out of character for me regardless so you're right, even if I wracked my brain trying to figure it out, I'm likely wrong.
That is out of your hands so IMO don't worry about it.
I agree, but it will likely manifest itself in moving back to Manhattan, or to a different part of Brooklyn just to not feel like I'm surrounded by it, reminded of it all the time.
What is open up in NYC? No events, bars, etc? Can you just go hang with friends and make some food? Any new hobbies? Get a smoker and start doing that. It takes time and attention.
Yeah, if anything the bigger hurdle is just feeling like an imposition on my friends. But the larger lesson is for me to start to feel more happy and content just hanging out by myself, as opposed to feeling lonely.
Steve,
Boundaries keep your self-worth intact allowing for choices to be made by each individual within the relationship.
Ultimatums are about forcing things to be your way or the highway while trying to seek power over someone.
So in this case it's how you present it.
I can't be married to someone without sex and intimacy.
You need to have sex and intimacy with me or I'm divorcing you.
Steve,
Boundaries keep your self-worth intact allowing for choices to be made by each individual within the relationship.
Ultimatums are about forcing things to be your way or the highway while trying to seek power over someone.
So in this case it's how you present it.
I can't be married to someone without sex and intimacy.
You need to have sex and intimacy with me or I'm divorcing you.
Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
Woke up this morning to a text from her:
"I know this is random but im listening to the queer as folk soundtrack, there is one giant playlist for it on Spotify, and I think you would really like a lot of the songs"
Nice of her to think of me and reach out. Means nothing. Didn't respond, went out to go play tennis instead.
[ Nice of her to think of me and reach out. Means nothing. Didn't respond, went out to go play tennis instead.
If you did this effortlessly you are making progress my man!
Way to go, Steve! Even better if you didn't listen to the playlist! =)
Hi everyone. Long time, no updates, I know.
So all in all, I've been well -- my new business is close to launching, and I'm very exciting about what our product looks like. In addition, my illiquid holdings have matured to a place that when liquidation happens, I'll likely be set financially. I've managed to avoid getting sick, as my family has as well, knock wood. Brooklyn is really quiet now -- which makes me wonder why exactly I'm paying NYC prices! -- but my place is comfortable and all in all, really can't complain overall.
I also ended up meeting someone, who I've been dating for about three months. She's wonderful, and while I see a lot of similarities between her and my ex, there's more than enough differences to not make it much more than a faint yellow light. I'm taking it very slow, and have gone out of my way to explain to her about NGS, and my tendency to enmesh very quickly. She's been understanding and so far, so good. I have zero expectations about where it goes, but it's been objectively very nice.
As far as WAW, a few things have happened but not much. The most notable event was that one of the cats that we fostered and raised together got sick, and ended up having to be put down due to rapidly advancing cancer. It was extremely sad, but in the safety in this forum, in a way I had already said goodbye when she left and took them with her so it didn't hit me as hard. She was devastated and reached out to me a few times to see if I wanted to go with her to the vet, as well as generally keeping me aware of how the cat was doing. I did end up going a few times, but it was very much all business, just like a child would be for those of you who have children. Other than that, a few texts back and forth, but nothing notable.
One thing I notice during the last time I was with her and the cat, is that she definitely does not seem happy. She's got a job that she likes, but everything about her life and the way she was describing it just gave me a lot of vibes that she thought things were going to be different and better in her life after us. As I said a few times to my therapist, I certainly think that my NGS and communication issues played a large part in our split, but I also think that I was unfairly scapegoated for a lot of issues she was having with herself and her life, and that she perhaps is now realizing that I wasn't the problem after all.
About six months ago, my lawyer advised me that I should file for divorce but not serve, in order to stop the accrual of assets as of that date. A few days back, she advised me again that it's been six months, and that we would have to either withdraw the motion, re-file (and thus reset the date), or serve WAW with papers. I really, really grappled with it -- I know the common maxim is that you'll know the right time when you know, and there will be peace with the decision.
I don't feel that way, but I decided to serve. At the end of the day I just don't see any chance of reconciliation, and she's certainly made no effort towards that. Everything about the S has been on her timeline, and it's been incredibly unfair. So, ultimately, I'm deciding/I've decided that I need to move my life forward, even if I'm ambivalent.
I do have a question for the group though: she is currently in Virginia, as she went down to stay with her family ahead of any lockdowns. There's a part of me that feels like I should call her and tell her that it's coming, such that she's not blindsided by it in front of family. This second it feels like the "right" thing to do; I don't have anger towards her, just sadness that this is where we're at. But I'm also somewhat sure this group will tell me that I'm being dumb and being much more considerate of her feelings than she's been at any time in our separation.
Certainly a heads up text is fine.
I would only caveat that, if she knows it's coming, it's easy to avoid/deny service and that will have you spending more money and time. If you feel those are likely, I would NOT give her a heads-up. I didn't give my ex-wife a heads-up, although I took a day off work and talked to her seconds after she was served.
Thanks both for the replies -- I don't feel that's very likely.
I have a general plan for what I'm going to say when we do inevitably talk:
This is no longer working for me, I need to make decisions regarding my life and my life only
Everything about the S has been on her timeline, and that is no longer acceptable for me
Steve
You have grown immensely my man and should be proud of yourself. There’s a big world out there. Continue to experience it.
I do have a question for the group though: she is currently in Virginia, as she went down to stay with her family ahead of any lockdowns. There's a part of me that feels like I should call her and tell her that it's coming, such that she's not blindsided by it in front of family. This second it feels like the "right" thing to do; I don't have anger towards her, just sadness that this is where we're at. But I'm also somewhat sure this group will tell me that I'm being dumb and being much more considerate of her feelings than she's been at any time in our separation.
She's a big girl. Stop trying to rescue her. It isn't dumb, it is just unnecessary. Your mind will trick you into needing to "reach out" because "it is the right thing to do". That is your NGS flaring back up. If she gets stuck in VA due to lockdowns (which personally I would just ignore but that is a different topic), then that is on her. Not you.
SteveS ~ What is your motivation in sending a heads-up text? I don't have a strong opinion either way, just know whatever you choose it's not going to feel great.
I can guarantee you whether you send her a heads-up or not, she's going to feel upset, hurt, angry, etc. It doesn't matter how much bread you use, it is still a sh*t sandwich after all.
Hey Steve,
sorry to hear about the cat. I understand losing a buddy [censored].
I would not text or call her, just let it come as it will. But it's not wrong to do so either, not a big decision really.
It's good that you are moving forward in accordance with your morals and logic.
Can't believe they're locking down NYC again. What are you doing for fun?
I do have a question for the group though: she is currently in Virginia, as she went down to stay with her family ahead of any lockdowns. There's a part of me that feels like I should call her and tell her that it's coming, such that she's not blindsided by it in front of family. This second it feels like the "right" thing to do; I don't have anger towards her, just sadness that this is where we're at. But I'm also somewhat sure this group will tell me that I'm being dumb and being much more considerate of her feelings than she's been at any time in our separation.
No way!!!
Let her experience what she needs to experience! Stop protecting her and trying to rescue her. That is no longer your job. You will try to cover it up by feeding us a bunch of stuff, and say it feels like the decent thing to do. Hello Mr. Nice Guy!
If you seriously think your heads-up won't lead to a big R talk,.........then you are in denial, and maybe unconsciously you want to hear from her.
There will ALWAYS be an excuse to contact, until you finally decide enough is enough. So, which one of you are suffering the withdrawal in this separation? It's not her.
Besides, WW's need to be shocked, blind-sighted, kicked in the gut, and the whole nine yards. When will you realize your nice guy techniques don't reap positive results from a WW?
Lol. The guy comes for advice and gets all different answers. He’s dating someone new and seems to have an amicable relationship with his soon to be ex so if he wants to send her a heads up I see zero issue with it.
I really don’t think he’s looking for a reaction and is just a decent guy.
I can add that I was recommended here to send a heads up that I'm finalizing the divorce a few months ago. I signed the letter, put it in the mailbox and sent her a short message that she'll be receiving a confirmation soon. There was no R talk in my situation. She sent a sad emoji when she received the confirmation but that's it.
Exactly Benny!
It was the stand up and right thing for your situation. Now if it was Curtis 7 or the new Steve I would say just serve her a$$ because they are horrible people.
I can add that I was recommended here to send a heads up that I'm finalizing the divorce a few months ago. I signed the letter, put it in the mailbox and sent her a short message that she'll be receiving a confirmation soon. There was no R talk in my situation. She sent a sad emoji when she received the confirmation but that's it.
Ben, I am on record in a lot of other people's sitch's saying that this is unnecessary. They will get the heads up when the get served or the paper work back. So many LBHs suffer from NGS and breaking that cycle is hard.
I can add that I was recommended here to send a heads up that I'm finalizing the divorce a few months ago. I signed the letter, put it in the mailbox and sent her a short message that she'll be receiving a confirmation soon. There was no R talk in my situation. She sent a sad emoji when she received the confirmation but that's it.
Ben, I am on record in a lot of other people's sitch's saying that this is unnecessary. They will get the heads up when the get served or the paper work back. So many LBHs suffer from NGS and breaking that cycle is hard.
Just for the record if you’re not looking for a reaction it is not NGS. Also it’s a good way to show that you are detached and moving on.
I read No more Mr.Nice Guy and none of it seemed familiar to me. Like LH says, I wasn't looking for a reaction. I was just going to file but then others, I think AS and someone else, said it was the respectful thing to do. But in my situation, I think either way would have been fine.
But in my situation, I think either way would have been fine.
That's why I've been careful to not say it is wrong. Only that it is unnecessary. I look at it like this, if you do struggle with NGS then it is awfully difficult not to do something like this without an agenda. If you aren't NGS, it is unnecessary because they will find out when they find out. So my advice to error on the side of caution and let them find out the hard way.
Well, crud! How many Steve's are on this forum? Apologies to the Steve of this thread. I got the Steve's mix up.
Well, crud! How many Steve's are on this forum? Apologies to the Steve of this thread. I got the Steve's mix up.
Just like when I was in school. There were as many as 4 other Steves in my classroom! LOL
Thanks all of the advice.
I understand both sides -- maybe a year ago, I would say my impulse to reach out was very much NGS. In this case, I feel it's really just more about doing the decent thing. I am not angry with her, I'm not trying to hurt her or cause a scene in front of her family. I assume this will invoke a larger discussion whether or not I give her a heads up.
As a poster said before, we generally have an amicable relationship and unlike some situations with exes, I don't believe her to be a bad person or something worth attacking. But I will also say that in most situations in which I've been somewhat ambivalent or whether to do something or not do them, I've ended up doing it and regretting it.
For someone additional context, we have had approximately 0 discussions about D and while that is clearly the most likely outcome of our situation, this move will be extremely surprising to her. It is the right thing for me to do, for myself, right now -- but it will definitely surprise her.
I will just just file the final papers.
For reference.
I will just just file the final papers.
For reference.
For 100% clarity, I did file -- four months ago. I did so on the advice of my lawyer, who advised me to file in order to stop the accrual of assets as of that date. However there is a statute in NYS where you have to serve after four months, or withdraw and refile, which would then reset the date as of the new filing.
So this isn't about filing so much as it's about serving.
I will just just file the final papers.
For reference.
For 100% clarity, I did file -- four months ago. I did so on the advice of my lawyer, who advised me to file in order to stop the accrual of assets as of that date. However there is a statute in NYS where you have to serve after four months, or withdraw and refile, which would then reset the date as of the new filing.
So this isn't about filing so much as it's about serving.
So what is the question? If the goal was to freeze the accrual of assets, and not serving would reset that date (presumably to a refile date of today or later) why would you not have her served?
I will just just file the final papers.
For reference.
For 100% clarity, I did file -- four months ago. I did so on the advice of my lawyer, who advised me to file in order to stop the accrual of assets as of that date. However there is a statute in NYS where you have to serve after four months, or withdraw and refile, which would then reset the date as of the new filing.
So this isn't about filing so much as it's about serving.
So what is the question? If the goal was to freeze the accrual of assets, and not serving would reset that date (presumably to a refile date of today or later) why would you not have her served?
The serving is going to happen. I'm full of very strong ambivalent feelings about it, but that ship has sailed.
I'm mostly just processing how I'm feeling about it, and wondering if it is the right thing to do to give her heads up about it, or not.
OK, I think the heads-up text is not a big deal.
There's 3 reasons why you would not want to send it (summarizing what everyone is saying here):
1. She may dodge service and run out the clock (sounds unlikely).
2. Your X is a horrible person (not the case).
3. You are expecting an R talk or some connection (NGS - not the case).
In my case, #1 was a concern and #2 helped.