Not sure I have a reason to hope...

Divorcebusting.com

Starting a new thread, old thread here:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2895440#Post2895440

Quick re-cap:

I discover H involved in an EA in the fall of 2019. He tells me that she is nothing to him, although he admits that their R instigated his deep exploration of our R and realization how unhappy he has been (total news to me... he has always been happy, loving, committed and connected up until this recent disclosure). He has recently entered into IC and feels like he has done a lot of work on himself and towards this decision.

He vacillates between wanting to make the marriage work and re-writing our history, telling me he isn't sure he was ever in love with me, although he does love me. We have had emotional separation, followed by physical separation, followed by a recent intense reconciliation, then a 180 back to the beginning again. I am exhausted and have been trying to keep balanced throughout it all. H is super sensitive, anxiously attached and has a lot of childhood trauma. So going NC, or even treating him like the friendly neighbor has had the opposite effect in my sitch. He sees it as more of the same treatment from me (I struggled with depression, now medicated and working on it, SSM, struggled to keep my balance between having 4 kids and building a successful business that required a lot of work travel for H). I checked out of the marriage at various points, as did he.

At this moment, he believes he will be happier without me, but he is scared to pull the trigger. I don't want a D. I am so grateful for this board and the support.

Hi Sage,

You know I'm still right here next to you.... I feel like we are going through much the same path, except that my H has been in this place now for 2.5 years rather than 10 months and also is totally in love with his AP.

If you're following my thread you know where I am (and where I'm not, yet) with all of this. I think Alison gave you some really good advice on your end-- no point in working for four months on an M with someone who isn't fully committed. I mean, I just did that with someone who was saying he was committed with his mouth but wasn't truly committed in his heart, and it didn't get me very far. He felt like he was trying, but it was pretty half-@ssed, and I just don't think that is good enough to make any progress. I think your H has to want it and believe it is possible in order to "try". A shoddy four months of trying will just give him the check box out of "I gave it my best shot" rather than really have much real hope of success. It is like MC when they're ambivalent. Not really worth the time and energy, unless you're specifically in discernment or otherwise trying to move out of ambivalence within a certain time frame.

I asked my H to describe what M2.0 would look like, best case scenario. He honestly can't even do it. He just can't visualize not loving AP and falling back "in love" with me. There's a big part of me that is fighting that and saying well, of course he can't visualize it because he's so deep into fantasyland with AP that it would be crazy to imagine he could, and if only he could get the space and untangle himself there he would be able to see that future with me. The part you say about knowing in your bones what is best for him, and Alison gently saying maybe you don't but also how it comes off to him-- I know absolutely this is a dynamic in my own situation and my H is so so feeling like I'm not really listening to him, I'm dismissing his feelings, I'm setting out a course of action like I always do and expecting him to fall into line.

The hard thing is... no matter what you or I think or don't think is possible, it isn't just up to either of us, alone. *He* needs to feel it and believe it, consistently. And thought your H doesn't have the same sitch in terms of an AP I think that many of the same drivers are likely there, a longing for what could be, some fantasy situation, if only he wasn't too scared to follow his heart. I think there might also be some weird male thing happening here where they feel trapped and like somehow it is more pathetic or cliche for them to stay in their safe M rather than be free and following their authentic selves (or whatever). Whereas THAT path just seems like so cliche MLC and pathetic from my perspective, the equivalent of hair plugs and a convertible. But whatever. I know we shouldn't be trying to mindread our confused and sorry Hs.

Anyway, just wanted to say I know what you're going through, I'm doing it myself, and it is so so hard. Can you follow that same path you did before, dropping the rope and being OK with the next steps? How did you get there? (And maybe you can tell me the magic elixir?

)

Also, does it have to be D if you aren't ready for that and he isn't ready to recommit? Is there some version of legal S you are OK with that could protect you and the children but not make you be the one to pull the actual trigger if that isn't what you want right now? I know you've gone through the whole separation part, which I have yet to experience, and it must be so hard on the kids to have him back and then maybe gone again. That is really unfair and messed up of him.

(((SAGE))) Hang in there.

It�s been a while since I have updated, so here goes�

After H�s major Hollywood-style reconciliation, he has once again turned a 180 and is now planning on renting that expensive place for a year and moves out in August. I have been all over the place emotionally, but when he told me his decision, I felt at peace and calm about it. The rollercoaster, the back-and-forths (I love you! I can�t live without you! I don�t love you! I can�t live with you!) has started to test my sanity. His vacillations have made me realize what a mess he must be inside and that I am not responsible for breaking him, nor for fixing him. The only possible way we can have any sort of M2.0 is letting him go completely.

Easier said than done, of course, and after all of this I am not even sure that we have enough bones of goodness to even consider a future, if one ever presents itself.

I am proud to say that I am the most detached I have ever been. When he rails and rants at me, his accusations are so clearly a projection from within him that I don�t take it personally. I listen for germs of truth, validate when and where I can, but have put up personal boundaries surrounding his projections. They�re not mine to own or deal with.

He has so many issues from childhood that are rearing their ugly heads right now and I feel like the catchall for all that happened in his youth. This, combined with his indecision, his impulsive decision-making, his meanness towards me, his EA, his depression and his complete lack of understanding that his decisions are not made in a vacuum, they directly impact the children and I, all lead me to believe that maybe he is in the midst of a MLC. I don�t know much about MLCs, but from what I have read on these boards, he ticks all the boxes.

I am trying to recognize why it is important to me to compartmentalize H�s behavior� is this a control mechanism on my part? That this all makes sense if he is having an A, or is in the midst of a MLC, or has some sort of mental illness. Is that because I need to resolve myself of responsibility? Or is it because his behavior is so out of character that I can only �stand� in our M if I externalize it all? And maybe it doesn�t really matter if the results are the same: I am able to detach and find my way into a healthy life without H.

Any advice on MLC, or any thoughts on my role in all of this greatly appreciated.

Sage, I have been posting over on MLC for a while. I thought my X was having a quarter life crisis at first. He was a runaway H who left me a year after the birth of our baby. Was he uncomfortable with the monumental life change? Yes. Was he having an affair? Yes. Was it a quarter life crisis? Maybe. Was it acceptable to me? Absolutely not.

Defining the problem is just a survival mechanism your brain uses to reconcile the unpalatable fact that your life partner has viciously and carelessly turned on you. My advice would be to stop untangling the skein. Does it matter why he does what he does or why he is who he is? The only question should be is this acceptable to you or not.

Take the focus off your H. I posed these questions to May and you might find it useful to think about them as well. What do you want in a partner? What values are important to you, and important for your children to learn? How do you want to be treated in a relationship? What unmet needs did you have in the M?

S,

I a really sorry your struggling.

Scout gave you some really good advice. Typically LBS feel that if they can diagnose it then they can move on To curing it like cancer. There are not protocols to cure these labels. The only treatments are time and space. Unfortunately if you are correct and it is MLC you are looking at a 5-7 year adventure.

When I look back on my marriage of 17 years, I had 14 really good one and 3 that were not so fun lol. That�s not so bad these days. Unfortunately at midlife people change and not always for the better. The best thing you can do is accept they changed and hope it�s not permanent and realize that there is nothing you can do to control it. Take the focus completely off them and put it on to you and your children.

Know that not matter what you�re going to be fine.

Originally Posted by Sage4

I am proud to say that I am the most detached I have ever been. When he rails and rants at me, his accusations are so clearly a projection from within him that I don�t take it personally. I listen for germs of truth, validate when and where I can, but have put up personal boundaries surrounding his projections. They�re not mine to own or deal with.

Hi Sage,
This is great. You sound really good to me. You've really been through the wringer recently and I'm so impressed with how you're holding up and continuing to detach and be strong. Huge props to you.

I second (third?) Scout and LH on this-- it really doesn't matter if it has a label or not. I like how LH has put it-- if it were a cancer diagnosis and you could identify the exact genetic fail and then go through the proscribed protocols to get an x% chance of saving your M... it seems so sane and normal. Something went wrong. you identify the problem. you do your best to fix it. But when the problem is outside of your control to heal, there is just no point in expending energy on his problems. You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. it is up to you to take care of yourself and your kids and him to figure out his own demons. It sounds like he has quite a bit on his plate with childhood issues, etc. Hopefully he has a good IC.

I have copied the advice you wrote on my thread onto my phone and keep looking at it when I am feeling down. So I hope you can do the same for yourself... remember this isn't your fault; save your precious energy for you, not your H; have compassion for yourself; stay at 30,000 feet; don't forget the self-care; know your feelings will change; you are adored and worthy of great things. Hug those kids and do something nice for yourself today. I actually think once he is out of the house and you're no longer kicked out on the nesting thing you'll be much , much freer to focus on yourself. How much do you need to see him for the business side of things?

hang in there, Sage!

Thank you Scout12 (you are so calm and wise! Stop untangling the skein is the best analogy), LH and May... I really appreciate the thoughtful responses.

I have had some anxiety about the separation, namely finances and the children. I have started conversations with H about splitting finances and in the middle of it, I had an out of body experience where my mind said 'is this really happening? Are we really talking about this? What the actual? This isn't real!!' Trying to calm that inner voice, shush her into oblivion so that I may accept my reality. It's so, so hard.

But I know that my best move right now is to continue to detach. I have no more interest in fixing him or joining him on this journey. It's his to figure out, not mine. I will only get hurt and cause more damage if I continue to stay in this place with him. 'Dragged by the rope I refuse to drop' some might say. Nope. No more.

That doesn't mean that I don't have moments of tears or sadness about my situation. And I know this sounds crazy, but I don't really intuitively feel like it is really over. Kind of like I am going through the motions, supporting his decision, validating, but knowing somewhere deep that we will end up together in the long term. Or maybe I am mixing that intuitive emotion up with the knowledge that I will be fine no matter what, with or without him? Outcome is the same either way, so I suppose it is not a bad thread of hope to hold onto?

I don't expect a whole lot of change or momentum to happen in my situation for the foreseeable future, but I like how Alison was able to reflect on how far she has come by re-reading her old threads so I hope to use this place to journal and reflect. Bear with me if it gets boring...

I understand that out of body anxiety, Sage. I experienced that a lot in the days and weeks after H moved out. We had been unhappy for a long time and the marriage was really really not working for either of us. I'd tried everything I could think of, we'd already had a horrendous and failed attempt at therapy and I'd been asking him to leave for months. But when he did, it was like a big part of my mind just could not process it. What had felt unbreakable and forever (for better or worse - and that security did more often than not feel like a miserable trap than a sanctuary) had broken - totally broken - and I could not even begin to imagine a way that fixing it would be possible. I do think that was shock, and trauma. Partner bonds are strong and more long lasting and deep in some ways than the bonds we have with our parents. And even if that bond is miserable and toxic, it is still a part of every single aspect of your life.

If you are in immediate financial vulnerability, I would advise getting a professional representative - a lawyer - to act for you. It needn't mean a divorce: you can get a temporary separation agreement around finances. And if you are not in immediate financial vulnerability, treat yourself as someone who has just been in a horrendous car crash and has walked away from a burning wreck. Sweet tea, early nights, gentle television and calming hobbies, time outside, routine, good food and no emotional or logistical demands. I know kids and work does not always make that possible. Maybe treating your shocked and injured heart can only happen for an hour, or half an hour a day. Whatever. Do what you can and it will be good enough.

Alison, thank you.

Having been through a period of S already with H, I don't fear it any longer. I secretly welcome the space to be on my own, decorate my newly-renovated house without his harsh and mean judgement and even (though I never thought I would be here) I welcome the thought of child-free days in my own house (what a marvel, I have never had this before). So the fear of S doesn't resonate with me, although it did before our initial period of S.

And as far as financial insecurity, I don't fear that either. H's thoughts were that he would just maintain status quo for me as long as it took for him to make his decision. That he would maintain my lifestyle to the degree I was used to (here's a pretty check, Pet, you don't need to worry!). But that doesn't work for me. I want to make decisions based upon my own financial security, my own abilities to save and decide what I want to spend MY money on. Not to be beholden to him. And frankly, I have been the money person in our R and I am concerned about his own poor decision-making surrounding money as he has never really had to deal with it before. To be fair, he gained control of our credit and took over some of the money stuff, but his new rental (FFS, I would BUY a house before I spent that on rent for a year!!) is testament to his inability to make sound financial decisions for US (it might be good for him, but not us). So my anxiety has been a product of his view vs my view of a S. And probably my fear of the wrath of my standing up for splitting finances (I want to split the house, cars, child-related costs, but not the business at this time).

Yes to sweet tea and long baths and runs in the woods. Yes to the self-care mechanisms. Yes to taking ownership of my own happiness and being. I am trying. Desperately.

xx

For those of you who have experienced the back and forth of monstering then kindness from your partners, is there any rhyme or reason behind it? We will have a decent, kind day together and then seemingly out of nowhere H becomes toxic again. I try to validate and get to the bottom of his anger (without losing this detachment I have been fostering and feeling deep within me lately), but I can�t always gain a toehold on the cause. Is he trying to push me away? I�m not really �there� for him to push against at the moment. Is he dealing with his own sh*t and momentarily needs to take it out on me? It hurts me feelings, as a human being, even though I am detaching.

Hey Sage,

He has to hate you in order to justify his cheating. When you have a nice time together, it creates cognitive dissonance in his mind. "If she's not that bad, maybe I'm the problem? If she's not that bad, how could I have hurt her?" I know it's tempting to try and explain it away as MLC, childhood issues, indecision about the marriage, or whatever else.

Unfortunately, the reality is simple and ugly.

You could simply say "You seem angry right now. I'm here for you if you need to talk but I'm not comfortable with your raised voice and aggression." This might be against the common advice here, but I don't really believe in validating anger. Acknowledging it, yes. But not at the expense of your emotional well-being in the name of divorce busting.

I wish I would have learned this lesson sooner.

I agree with Scout. Never validate $hitty behavior.

Hi Scout,

A couple of thoughts for your consideration.

One, I agree with LH-- I think they partially act like a-holes because they feel uncomfortable with the friendliness/kindness-- maybe not so much in the moment but in retrospect, and so they push you away and try to get you to be a b*ch back and justify their assumptions and behavior. I did have some sessions in the past with a DB coach who also said that WAHs are terrified to give their wives hope, and so that could be another explanation for his behavior. Don't let yourself get drawn in.

And, I agree with Scout and LH also-- you don't need to listen to verbal abuse. Walk away and ignore it. "I hear you are upset right now. I'm going to give you some space." Alison is terrific at boundaries for this kind of thing-- I know you follow her threads and her advice on mine, and she has some great lines for shutting this garbage down.

Finally, from a pure behavior modification standpoint, simply don't reinforce him with attention when he's being a jerk, and do reinforce him when he's being nice. Reinforcement might mean eye contact, smiling, engaging to a certain degree, listening, being present. When he's being a jerk, disengage, don't smile, ignore his behavior to the best of your ability. It might mean removing yourself from the situation. Don't engage by getting in a fight either-- negative attention is still attention. He doesn't have the right to spew on you.

xoxo M

Ugh. Obviously, I mean hi SAGE. Sorry. You see how my brain is in no fit stage for a new job. And I agree with SCOUT that this is cognitive dissonance in action. OMG. I need.... sanity.'

Also, I wanted to say to your previous post-- I think it is a great thing to be able to separate your finances and not have to worry about his profligate spending.

Does not splitting the business mean you have to work together a lot still?

Anyway, thinking of you.

My situation seems to be moving quicker than most in that I am pretty sure that H and I are heading for D.

We tried to have a cooperative conversation about splitting finances in anticipation of him moving out in a few weeks, and three sentences in he was attacking me to the point of me being in tears. I was open, loving and willing to work with him on how we would move forward, he questioned something that I believed we had tabled for this conversation and when he brought it up, I said, 'aren't we talking about that asset at a later time?'. It escalated from there, he wrote a list of people in his life that think I am controlling and manipulative (it contained his mum, sisters and some work colleagues whom I have never met and don't know me from Adam).

This isn't the first time he has written such a list to me. The last one (late last year) was all the things he doesn't like about me, including the fact that the house is a mess during the day (we are lucky enough to live in the countryside where our children free range and it isn't uncommon for there to be 12 kids in and out of my house at any given pre-Covid moment... I could spend every waking second cleaning my house and the floors would still be dirty even with just our 4 kids, let alone the coming and goings of neighbor tribes). These lists feel cruel and mean to me. I also recognize that they are a projection of his; I am the one who has done all the emotional labor in our relationship and have maintained all the relationships in our life (including his mum and sisters). I also have a huge, supportive friend and family network that has been my lifeline during his long work-related absences over the past five years. So maybe he has to build his army? Even though the last thing I would ever do it rally my Roman soldiers against him.

During our heated exchange, he claims I am controlling and psychologically manipulative (because I cried when I thought I was being open and nice during our sad conversation about splitting finances and he was mean to me). I can't say a thing without that being the constant reframe. This from a man who has been conducting a long-distance emotional affair (if not a PA) for potentially years.

I ended that evening feeling DONE. That D and moving on was better than standing for a M where my partner writes down lists of people and things he hates about me. From an H who questions what I do with my time when he's gone (uh, keeping our children alive and some of the most well-adjusted kiddos in our community??), how I have contributed to our business (uh, I was the breadwinner for YEARS to support the start of our business and have continued to lean in to any role that would further his career since) and just in general hateful comments about my shortcomings. I told him I was done and if we couldn't have civil conversations between us about the easy stuff (finances), how would we be able to amicably deal with the hard stuff (parenting plans and custody)? That maybe it was time for both of us to get legal counsel and have all future communication go through them.

He left for a night camping with our eldest and returned remorseful. He hugged me for a long time and apologized for his behavior, that he thought we could do this amicably and that he was willing to 'take it all on the chin' (gag me) and be the man he should have been from the beginning (when he realized he no longer loved me). *In our earlier heated exchange I told him he has been SO dishonorable in all of this. That of all the ways we could have ended our R, he had to have an EA, pretend to be 'working' on the M in MC, treat me like absolute shite and basically degrade me to the point of me having zero self-esteem left.

Well, his efforts lasted a total of several hours. He was working in the studio while I was feeding 12 children and simultaneously making a gourmet meal for us, and his first words to me when he came into our scene was what I had done to the fire (kids were roasting marshmallows outside over our fire pit) as it was too smokey. Did I put water on it (OMFG, I was raised in ALASKA FFS, I know how to build and maintain a f****** fire)? In a mean, condescending tone. I snapped and said no, why? After which he took his gourmet meal and ate it inside (probably texting OW) while I watched the 12 children roast marshmallows. He has been an a** to me ever since.

At what point is it just too much? I just don't want to feel this way anymore. I am a good person, a great mother and beloved by everyone I interact with except for him (could be my echo-chamber, I am sure there are people that don't love me). I am not afraid to instigate D. However, I haven't been standing as long as some, so I am questioning my resolve. I think he is in MLC, but not completely sure (he bought the car, has done everything else MLC-related).

So far he hasn't been able to go six weeks without a reconciliation attempt, so I have no idea what is going to happen when he moves out for real and actually has to take care of our children and be on his own for more than a few days. But I also just don't want this anymore. I am approaching a milestone birthday in a few weeks and I can't imagine living the rest of my life feeling like this. I am vacillating between 'GTF outta here, girl' and 'wait! what you had was real and amazing and four kids are worth standing for!'.

Help!

Oh Sage, this reminds me of my H so much.

At one point, he came around to the house (while we were separated) - he wanted to, he'd asked to - I hadn't been chasing him in that moment. I cooked him a meal. The dog jumped up on the sofa and caught my knitting and I said H's name loudly to get his attention (there was no 'tone' at all - I just wanted his help because my hands were full cooking for us all) and he had a massive tantrum at me speaking disrespectfully to him and left. Another time he had a tantrum because at some point - possibly years before - I had let one of my houseplants die. Another time, he had a tantrum because I hadn't washed the fruit prior to putting it in the bowl. I am talking full on tantrums, with massive lists of everything that was wrong with me, and reasons why everyone I knew was just pretending to like me. I found it very hurtful.

You H is not capable of going what you want him to do. He may even, at times, want to do it himself. But he can't. He CANNOT even consistently act like a decent man around you. You have to give him a wide berth. You can't have money conversations with him (read my threads) or any other type of conversation. He isn't capable of it. Do essential money things via solicitors and otherwise, step back and avoid him like the plague. Really. Read my threads. My H was exactly like this - irrationally angry, unpredictably triggered, nasty nasty nasty. If you ever do get to piecing you don't want to be around him when he's in this mood because - I speak from personal experience - it's just too difficult to forgive. Worse than the EA.

Sage�

First off, I just want to say how much you feel like a kindred spirit to me. I see so many similarities between the two of us. I can empathize with you so, so deeply in so many ways.

A few thoughts for you to take or leave.

one� do you need to be loving and kind in these interactions with him, like going through the financial questions? Why? When I read this last post, it kind of seemed to me like you had two modes in your head� working through this together with loving kindness, or everything going through your Ls. Is there a middle ground? can you be civil but not put your heart out there on the line?

two, when he acts like an @ss and goes off about ridiculous things like all the people who think you are controlling, can you step back from it enough to see he is just being a ridiculous, petty child trying to hurt you? I love Alison�s examples because they show you just how crazy these Hs can be. Mine has said similar things. I got the controlling speech the other night too; tonight I forgot to put something back in the kitchen and he huffed around for a minute when he couldn�t find it like I�d purposely keyed his car or something. In my head I just keep thinking if you hate it so much here, GTFO but I don�t say anything. I�m sure he knows I�m thinking it though. Anyway, I agree with Alison that you don�t need to take that kind of abuse and the best thing is to remove yourself from it, and do your best not to let it affect you. Don�t let his crazy get you down.

three, if you do decide to move forward with D, you are under no obligation to do anything his way or be extra nice or sad or loving about it. As Scout has reminded me several times, D is not a team sport. It is a business relationship gone sour, where your business partner has lied and stolen from the company. For me, I feel if we go this route I will be putting on my take-no-$hit and you-messed-with-the-wrong-woman uniform and going to town. I don�t have it in me to be kind through that process. I have the �H is a flawed human being who made a mistake but is redeemable� narrative and the �H is a lying cheating @ss and the sooner I can disconnect my life from his the better� narrative battling in my head. I don�t have any middle ground.

Now I�m realizing I asked you in the first paragraph about a middle ground in how you are behaving with your H while I'm saying I don't have a middle ground in how I view my H... but I feel like even with the flawed human being narrative I don�t feel like I always need to be nice to him. He doesn�t really deserve it right now. And your H may be less of an A if you�re chillier to him� I bet seeing you cry makes him feel ultra guilty so he responds by being a jerk to make you mad instead of sad. So even if you�re still feeling like you want to stand for your M, being loving doesn�t really need to be a part of how you interact with him right now.

Finally, there�s no need for you to rush in any particular direction. Sit with where you are and how you feel. I spent an hour on the phone with my one friend today, who said I�ll know when it�s time to walk away. There won�t be a question anymore. And I think she�s right. So protect yourself, focus on what YOU need, don�t let his crazy affect you, and know you�re an amazing woman and mom. He�s a complete idiot.

I have been reading threads, but unable to update mine for awhile. I am pleased for the progress that so many posters are making on their mental and/or relationship situation and I have been learning so much vicariously through other people's stories.

Mine remains fairly consistent: H is moving out in a couple of weeks (he signed a year lease) and my kiddos don't know about the upcoming changes. H is currently sleeping in the guest room, but other than that we have had some sense of normalcy since he moved back in a month ago (at least as the kids are concerned). I have had some ups and downs, but for the most part I feel like I have moved closer to detaching. In fact, I am looking forward to him moving out and not feeling like I have to walk on eggshells any longer. But I have been struggling internally with a few different issues and I am hoping this board may be able to help me:

I have been brewing on the OW (I am almost 99% sure that it has only been an EA... not that it matters to me, but holds some reference for what I am about to say). She has 4 kids too. And from what H has told me over the years, she is unhappy, although who really knows. H admitted today that he justified his EA with OW and didn't feel remorse or guilt because he felt neglected and ill-treated by me over the years (SSM, I prioritized the child-bearing and kids over his emotional needs, I was stressed and cranky after being left for weeks on my own with the littles while he had glamorous work and traveled around the world 200+ days a year, I didn't 'respect' him the way he needed...I will go into this in greater detail later). Anyway, I can't stop thinking about OW's husband in light of my own situation. That if OW wasn't on the scene, H would have leaned into our issues and given our relationship the attention it needed instead of spending all the emotional energy on her (he admitted as much today). Our family is breaking apart because of this. Should I remain silent and not contact OW's H with the information I have? Or do I owe another large family the truth and an opportunity to work out their issues? I would have been so grateful if OW's H has said something to me (assuming he knew) before we got to this point. This isn't some affair with a young single person. This is another entire family, same size as ours, that could be saved. Or am I deluding myself?

Back to H's thoughts on why he is leaving me:

1. I have been controlling and manipulative (he wavers on this... I know I am controlling to a certain degree, but running a household with 4 kids on my own demands a certain level of control-- manipulative has only come up since BD). He would come home from work travels and we would integrate him into the fold as much as we could in the week or two he was around, but it was hard on all of us. I felt like we got better at it over the years, but it never was 'easy' to give up control of the household systems that were in place when he was gone. I did research on military families and was raised in a household where my own father was gone a lot, so it seemed normal to me (read: I wasn't needy, demanding, nor did I blame or guilt him for his absences, although none of my friends could understand my acceptance of this).

2. I didn't acknowledge his love language (physical touch/sex). Which I attributed to my utter exhaustion at having 4 babies in 5 years (the first 3 years of which I was the sole breadwinner, working 60+ hours a week AND managing the household and children etc). I think every woman here can relate to being 'touched out' at the end of the day with suckling newborns and needy toddlers. Excuses, excuses, I know. But I know of no woman friend of mine that didn't feel the same way and their husbands didn't leave them for this reason.

3. I didn't maintain my body/looks (highly important to H, he works in a field where looks are everything). See above. I also had a devastating family loss when baby #3 was 5 weeks old... I spiraled into depression and failed to lose the baby weight before #4 came along. He wanted to show me off, I wanted to hide in a hole.

4. I became resentful. Actually, I was severely depressed and didn't recognize it. I probably did take out my frustrations on the only adult in the room (H).

5. And then there is a litany of things that I just can't accept (have evidence to the contrary, feels like H is 'making things up to justify his cause'): there was no 'spark' between us, he married too young, he wanted a big family and I was the right person for that purpose (though no other purpose?), he loved me but wasn't in love with me, he felt forced into marriage (we did elope, we are from different countries and needed to get married to be together in the long run, although he wanted to be with me for life from day one, he wanted to get M and was undying in this until BD), we just don't 'intersect' the right way (again, since BD; prior to BD, I was the dream wife and love of his life and how lucky were we to have found each other?!?)

Sorry, this is all a lot. I have started to vision myself in a place where none of this matters, where I am completely detached and don't care (it will be a lot easier when he is out of the house and we are living separate lives). I am working my way there, but am not completely there yet.

Originally Posted by Sage4

Should I remain silent and not contact OW's H with the information I have? Or do I owe another large family the truth and an opportunity to work out their issues? I would have been so grateful if OW's H has said something to me (assuming he knew) before we got to this point. This isn't some affair with a young single person. This is another entire family, same size as ours, that could be saved. Or am I deluding myself?

Hi Sage4,

I don't believe you owe OW's husband anything. It sounds like you have a conscience that doesn't rest easily seeing others hurt, and if we all spoke up, wouldn't our society be a better place?

DB points out that exposing the A often doesn't help you--it could, for example, sink their relationship and make OW more available--but that wasn't your motive anyway.

(((sage)))

Hi Sage,

I had a few thoughts for you.

One... omfg, I am continually blown away by how similar our Hs are on all of this. Much of what your H has said to you about the reasons why he strayed sounds like word-for-word things my H has said to me. None of it is him taking responsibility for his own actions. All just justifications to let himself off the hook for the affair. I hope you can recognize that and aren't trying to internalize all of this. I know it really helped me when I realized that my H was just following the exact same script as all these other WAHs.

Also, I'm sorry. But four children with your H gallivanting all over the world, running a business, running a home, all by yourself, dealing with major life stressors and births and depression-- I think all of your reactions are totally normal and human. So I hope you are able to take a step back on all of this and realize that yes, maybe you could have done things differently, but you were doing the best you could with the tools you had at the time, and it doesn't sound like he was being all that great of a partner to you during that time either.

On the EA vs the PA. I have to say, if there has been any opportunity for this to be a PA, if I were you I'd assume that was the case. I'm not trying to mindread here, but I do think that having crossed that line might be part of the reason that he is clinging so desperately to the justifications for why you were so terrible and why he was leaving (I notice that is what he's saying, not that he's leaving because of OW). I also wonder if having that lie out there and unaddressed, and his inability to tell you, is part of the reason he got scared off of Ring. That may or may not be helpful or true, but it just really sticks with me that there are so many other similarities and my H also swore up and down it was just an EA. I know that for him having crossed that line is part of what has made him feel like he needed to commit to the A and that being "true love" because otherwise he has to look at himself as a philanderer, not just someone who fell in love accidentally after his wife demonstrated she didn't love him with the SSM.

My H stuck to this line for so, so, so long. When he finally admitted this *was* about her and not about us, I think that was a big shift in our conversations. He really really wanted to have this narrative that he fell out of love with me because I broke him with the SSM and we were separating because it would never work out between us, and the A was a side note and not the reason. I think that was also why he hid the full depth and breadth of the A from me for so long as well-- really hurt his narrative to himself that he wasn't such a bad guy. And he is now very scared of having to face his own behavior and why he did the things he did if he recommits to the M, because in his head he doesn't really need to do that work if he rides off into the sunset with AP.

Regarding whether or not to tell the OW's H... you might look at BluWave's thread as I think she became friends with the OW's H during the time, and there may be some lessons in there for you. I agree you don't owe him anything-- you did not do this, this is 100% on your H and his W, their bad behavior, not yours. So you shouldn't internalize that wrongdoing and somehow feel you're behaving inappropriately by not saying something to the H. I would guess it might have a negative effect on the possibility of Ring with your H, so I would be really really certain that you aren't doing it partially to get the OW in trouble or possibly get her to retreat, because my guess is that would backfire. Do you know him personally? I seem to recall that she is involved in some way with your business, right? Is your H saying he is leaving in order to pursue a R with her, or just that he can't stay M to you?

Here's a thought for you to take or leave-- what do you think about asking your H if the OW's H is aware? And saying you're thinking about getting in touch with him? Exactly what you just said to us here-- that he's admitted he'd have worked on the M in the absence of OW, and you're really sad that another family is breaking up, and you really wish someone had told you if they'd known, and maybe they will have a chance to save their family if it isn't too late. He will probably freak out and get really mad, none of your beeswax, etc. But if you do end up telling him you didn't do it behind your H's back and if you stand by it being the right thing to do, I would not want to have it be a secret. Maybe that is really bad advice and I'm not recommending it by any means, but just a thought to chew on.

Hang in there Sage. You're amazing and you don't deserve this $hit.

Originally Posted by may22

One... omfg, I am continually blown away by how similar our Hs are on all of this. Much of what your H has said to you about the reasons why he strayed sounds like word-for-word things my H has said to me. None of it is him taking responsibility for his own actions. All just justifications to let himself off the hook for the affair. I hope you can recognize that and aren't trying to internalize all of this. I know it really helped me when I realized that my H was just following the exact same script as all these other WAHs.

Thank you so much, May, I needed to hear this right now. I have my moments of self-doubt and sadness and feeling so alone.

Originally Posted by may22

On the EA vs the PA. I have to say, if there has been any opportunity for this to be a PA, if I were you I'd assume that was the case. I'm not trying to mindread here, but I do think that having crossed that line might be part of the reason that he is clinging so desperately to the justifications for why you were so terrible and why he was leaving (I notice that is what he's saying, not that he's leaving because of OW). I also wonder if having that lie out there and unaddressed, and his inability to tell you, is part of the reason he got scared off of Ring. That may or may not be helpful or true, but it just really sticks with me that there are so many other similarities and my H also swore up and down it was just an EA. I know that for him having crossed that line is part of what has made him feel like he needed to commit to the A and that being "true love" because otherwise he has to look at himself as a philanderer, not just someone who fell in love accidentally after his wife demonstrated she didn't love him with the SSM.

There have been ample opportunities for it to be a PA. H has sworn up and down that it has not been that, but his actions are so extreme in the monstering/blaming/meanness that it tells me he has a HUGE amount of shame and guilt. More than one would expect for our situation. And it would make sense in terms of the back-and-forth with the Ring. I had a sneaking suspicion on all the times he came back to reconcile that OW reached out in some capacity and that threw him back. I don't know this for sure, of course. But if it were a PA, I don't think he would ever admit it. As it stands now, he can paint me as the 'controlling, resentful, mean, SSM wife who made him unhappy for years'. If his decision is due to an A, he loses all that credibility he has worked so hard to build up with the few people he is speaking to about it.

Regardless, H is not suggesting he is leaving me to be with her. She lives 1000's of miles away and I don't think he will leave our kids, although I am so shocked by his behavior, I guess anything could happen.

[quote=may22]Here's a thought for you to take or leave-- what do you think about asking your H if the OW's H is aware? And saying you're thinking about getting in touch with him? Exactly what you just said to us here-- that he's admitted he'd have worked on the M in the absence of OW, and you're really sad that another family is breaking up, and you really wish someone had told you if they'd known, and maybe they will have a chance to save their family if it isn't too late. He will probably freak out and get really mad, none of your beeswax, etc. But if you do end up telling him you didn't do it behind your H's back and if you stand by it being the right thing to do, I would not want to have it be a secret. Maybe that is really bad advice and I'm not recommending it by any means, but just a thought to chew on./quote]

Interestingly enough (not surprising because you and I think a lot alike), this is exactly what I did prior to your post! Almost verbatim. He freaked out, but more in a 'holy sh!t' sort of way, that this could really blow up in his face. We left the conversation unfinished, which is good because I don't know what I am going to do. I plan to sit with this all for a while.

Thanks for posting, May, it means a lot.

So let me say this about dropping this bomb on someone else, this is simply my experience you can take it as you'd like.

I refused to go out of my way to speak with OW's bf. Very early on when some of my support system wanted me to blow it all up and let the chips fall where they may I sat down and gave it a lot of thought and decided to keep it to myself. I very easily could've done it any time I wanted. I could do it now if I really wanted to. I know him. I know OW. I know people they know. I know OW's whole extended family. I know where both of them work. And I know people with whom they work with. I know where they live. I had the power at any moment to ruin OWs life and to get H punched in the face or beaten within inches of his life depending on when and how I caught OW's bf. But I passed. I in fact didn't even let H know that I had the ability to reach out to OW's bf any time I wanted. I did however text OW when it was still an EA and asked her how her bf feels about all the time she's spending with my husband and the fact that she texts and calls him all day, every day, at all hours. She absolutely lost it and said she'd back off. She did for like 2 weeks. But by that time I decided I wasn't going to interfere with the relationship any more than I already had. That I would let it happen as far as the two of them were willing to take it because I knew from the get go, she'd never start over with my H. I knew H was just an outlet for her. Which before my DB-ing days I screamed at him from the parking lot of the mall he and her were at embarrassing my children and me right before Xmas. I say this so you know I'm not all zen and pan flute music over here. In this process I have definitely had my moments. I am not beyond petty, or rage, or poor emotionally influenced choices.

I don't know OW in your situation but I can say based on my time as a WW if there's a family at home. Even if it's just a man she's invested a lot of time and energy into she isn't going any where fast, if at all. You're H is an outlet. She may even say she's in love with him, but a WW brain just doesn't work the same as a WH. They get caught up but that old life is still so much more visible. That old life has so much more pull. On the flip side of that they are better at hiding these things and cake eating for as long as possible because they are usually filling in emotional needs more than physical ones.

I just strongly suggest you tread lightly here. Would you really want to be responsible for someone else feeling the way you feel right now? No you aren't the one who caused the betrayal but you're the one pulling away the veil. Do you want to be the catalyst? The other side of that is do you want H knowing how low you are willing to swing? I'm all for petty. Trust me. But if there's ever going to be hope for an R you can't put more obstacles in your way. And if there's any hope for the least painful not drawn out D possible now is not the time for him to see the places you could go given the opportunity. Just think on it a bit.

Haha, WF, I love the pan flute image!

I appreciate your perspective, thank you so much for sharing it.

As innocent and naive as I sound saying this, my intentions are not to blow anything up, nor to punish anyone or damage anything, or stop the affair for the sake my own M. I realize reading your post that I am guilty of my-side bias in all of this. And my side is that I would want to know and would hope that someone would tell me if they knew. Maybe I could have saved my marriage, or saved my children from a broken home? My intention was that maybe I could save another family from the same fate I am feeling like we are heading down?

But I also see how I am looking at it from only one perspective. That everyone involved would probably look at it from the perspective you wrote: vindictive wife blows sh!t up, look how low she can go.

I also appreciate your perspective from the WW point of view. Based upon what H has said in the past (and even recently), I don't get the sense that OW has any plans on leaving her H and kids. She has some extenuating circumstances that mean she could never move over to our part of the country and I don't think H will leave our kids.

Thanks for opening my eyes.

Quote

FWIW (and since my H has been so talky talky about all of this)-- he said he didn't tell me because he was scared. Really, really scared. I had that same 1% thought in my mind in the fall, when he was still saying EA only, but dismissed it because all he had to do was tell me it was a PA and I was outta there, and since he was saying with his mouth he wanted out, why would he not just tell me? And I also thought, maybe he isn't saying it because he doesn't want me to walk. I think that was definitely part of it-- at least what he's told me-- but also scared of the consequences, scared of other people finding out, scared to have to own that he was a cheater. He told me the other day when he embarked on this A, he really didn't care or think about how I would feel. He only was thinking about what he wanted. And that he thought to himself, OK, if this ends up being something, I'll just get a divorce. And that was two and a half years ago. He said, clearly this is all just so much more complicated than he thought back then-- his feelings for me, the children, the life we've built together, his own self-image--all waaay harder than he frivolously thought when he took that first fateful step.

I read in one of the books the other day (I think Glass but maybe Perel) how hard it is for the H and W to face each other after the A-- one line struck me-- he looks in her eyes and sees his fallen image. I think this is real. I'm sure your H is sticking like glue to that controlling, resentful, mean, frigid W narrative because it is the only one in which he can be at all OK with himself and his own behavior. But, deep down, he knows the truth.

Thank you for the wisdom, May.

I really resonate with the quote about seeing a fallen image of himself in my eyes. I watch him struggle with this-- wanting to be mean and snap at me/push me away one moment and then lovingly questioning if I am OK as he sees that I am struggling today. Some days he slips and calls me 'babe' and is super friendly and loving and other days he goes to bed downstairs without even saying goodnight. I am on a daily rollercoaster and my stupid hope and forgiving nature allows me to naively jump back on every time.

Sadly, the kids and our 'intact family future' keep pulling me back in more than is probably healthy for me. I am desperate to give my children the upbringing I had (intact family with parents who adored each other). I know this may be beyond my control, but I can't help but question his current mental state considering what we had over the past 13 years. Does someone really 'flip' seemingly overnight? NO ONE in our life saw this coming, me least of all. I am either a blind fool, or H is going through a crisis that he may or may not recover from.

I am sad to say that I am looking forward to him moving out in a couple weeks. The daily reminder that I am unloveable to him is almost killing me. I am sick of crying every day (not in H's presence), I am heartbroken to hear my kids talk about future travel or life experiences that we will not have (D1 mentioned today that she wants to live next to us when she gets older so we can help take care of her hypothetical twin girls... that H will be such a good granddad and I will be the best Nana ever). I wish I was stronger and more resolved by this point, but I am just not. This is the hardest thing I have ever gone through and I am clinging to the hope that this is the worst of it and when he moves out I can move on, detach completely and be my best mom self.

Hi Sage,

Thanks for your post on my thread. I know so much how you feel and my heart is aching for you (and me and all of us in these awful situations... but I just want you to know that I see you, I feel you, I am here with you.)

If I could possibly share one of your recommendation with me back at you... is it possible for you to try as best you can to stay in the moment and practice mindfulness? I know it is soooooo hard do to this. I am horrible at it. But, I just can't imagine it is serving you right now to think about your daughter's potential disappointment in 20 years of not having her parents together to take care of her own children. (Also, a lot can change between now and then, just saying.)

I can empathize so much with you in all of this. I also want my children to have the intact family that I had and H had. But much of that is simply not within your control right now. It is all to easy to spin when there is so much happening and it feels all out of your control. But... can you suss out what IS in your control, right now, today? Is it saying "not now" to those thoughts when they invade and save them for another time? Is it focusing on the small ways of being present with your children and listening with all your attention for a bit? Is it some small element of self-care or a call with a friend? Any ways you can find the space that YOU control and honor it, be grateful for it, and make the adjustments you can within that space to support yourself seems like it could be so, so helpful for you right now.

In/re him MO... I don't think you should be sorry you're looking forward to that. Besides not crying every day in his presence, what are the other positive things you can take from his absence? I spent a lot of time building up all the changes I would make to the house once H was gone and they are still very attractive to me... also after BD I went out and bought all new bedding for MY bed (even though he was still sleeping there at the time) but it was meaningful to me and I still really love my new comforter. Are there things like that you can plan for?

Also, hoping you can release some of the anxiety because I remember you saying before you weren't scared of him leaving because you guys had already been S... what is different now for you? The lease? Remember that this is all a process and if you guys are meant to be, another S isn't going to tank your chances for R. In fact, if you read the advice on my thread, folks are pretty explicit that Sing is probably the single fastest and most effective way of setting yourself up for R success. Let him go, focus on you, let him experience life without you there.

From the outside, I feel a little like the last S was maybe not set up for him at least to really feel the loss of you as his W, since he just got to dip in and be in the house without you there, which probably wasn't all that much different from being away when he traveled for work. Make this one real, if you can, for him. Don't spend time and energy on a soft landing for him. Focus on being the best Sage and best mom you can be, and let him fail out there on his own in the real world. He will, you know. Pommy's sitch seems very similar to yours in my mind and it wasn't till she really let him go and he understood he might really lose her that he flipped back. Your H has that possibility right there, I think. He did it that one time but maybe it was too easy for him to get you back.

And finally, don't beat yourself up for not being the queen of detachment. This is hard stuff. You WILL get through it, though. I have no doubt.

(((SAGE)))

Last night H and I told the children that he is moving out and we are slowly moving towards divorce. The conversation was the hardest one I have ever had in my life and it went poorly (we had agreed to stick to the facts: H is moving out, the kids will split time between the homes, divorce is likely happening... any questions kiddos?). Instead H told the kids 'mummy and daddy have decided... mummy and daddy think this is best... mummy and daddy etc'. We had previously discussed not using this tactic because the kids know that H wants out, but that I do not. And I refuse to lie or be inauthentic with them (although I am dedicated to only giving the information they need, would never throw him under the bus, and am a pretty great mom in the emotional intelligence department). H also shut down a question from the kids about me getting a job (work to them means leaving for extended periods of time like he does and of course they are worried about it). He snapped at our S 'it's my job to take care of mummy' after which, no one wanted to ask anymore questions. Can I just say that his response is demeaning to me and untrue in the long-term?

A couple of days ago, we had a talk about how I am the cause of all of this and the whole '13 years of misery' schtick. I lost my ability to validate his cr*p and told him how deeply, deeply, deeply he had hurt me with his affair, how disappointed I was that he chose to lean out of the marriage instead of leaning in and how I couldn't move forward into friend zone like he wants because I hadn't had a whiff of him owning his side of the street/50% of the marriage. He stood up for himself, made excuses (that placed it all back on me) and basically left me feeling worse than I was before the conversation.

H takes everything personally, whether it is from me or the kids. His ego-driven emotions (shame, guilt, etc) overwhelm him and render him unable to empathize or see anything beyond his own pain. I keep trying to repeat the mantra 'I didn't break him, can't fix him' over and over. My nature is to try and improve myself, reflect, change, become a better version, so when someone blames me for things, I want to address it. But the load has become unbearable and I don't see how I can change anymore without losing the essence of who I am.

I am not sure if I should continue to stand for our M, or just throw in the towel already.

Needing 'you'll be OK no matter what' today, but not able to supply it myself at the moment...

Even I went through phases of this. A lot of vets around here suggest "I'm sorry you feel that way," for that kind of vitriol being thrown in your direction. Some suggest truth darts here and there. I think you asking him for ownership of 50%of the failure of the MR is a hill you can be willing to die on. Pick a line in the sand here. You don't need to validate every single thing ever to be DBing.

I just want you to know what he's saying is what he is feeling. Doesn't make it true. And while you can see that, he can't. He genuinely doesn't have the ability to see past his defense mechanisms and may I suggest if you can't give H some understanding here you approach his hot mess self with pity. It's patronizing. Probably just as much as saying "I'm sorry you feel that way," but at least it puts you in the right head space.

You will be ok no matter what. And if you want to stand, stand. If you don't, you go right ahead and throw in the towel. And if you want to fence sit for a bit to see how this separation plays out you're welcome to that too.

Thinking of you xoxoxoxo

(((Sage))) Just popping into newcomers when all I can handle usually is MLC and wanted to offer you a hug. I've mostly kept up with your threads. It sounds like you handled a really, really rough situation so well, even though telling your kids did not go planned. I'm so sorry. You, though, displayed incredible grace, and kept the focus on your kids and not your H's less than honorable behavior.

Originally Posted by Sage4

A couple of days ago, we had a talk about how I am the cause of all of this and the whole '13 years of misery' schtick. I lost my ability to validate his cr*p and told him how deeply, deeply, deeply he had hurt me with his affair, how disappointed I was that he chose to lean out of the marriage instead of leaning in and how I couldn't move forward into friend zone like he wants because I hadn't had a whiff of him owning his side of the street/50% of the marriage. He stood up for himself, made excuses (that placed it all back on me) and basically left me feeling worse than I was before the conversation.

Can I just say I recently went through pretty much the same convo with my H, and also left it feeling worse than I was before? Ugh. You are able to stand back and see where his behavior is coming from, though. I'm totally on the same page as you--wanting to address/repair/grow when someone (especially someone I care about!) blames me for things. But you can only do so much of this if your H isn't willing right now to do the same, right? You recognize this, and you know what is best for you. You are not resistant to change or accepting responsibility; you are just not willing to bend yourself into shapes just because someone else demands it, nor are you going to take on more than your share of responsibility. You know yourself. You will be okay.

As for standing or throwing in the towel, maybe you don't have to decide at this moment, or maybe you can change how you feel about it from week to week, just observe where your feelings go for a while, and that is okay. Either way, it sounds like you are living with your and your children's best interests in mind, and isn't that the most important piece?

Hi Sage, I�m so sorry you are going through this. I really do feel your pain, I have been there. You don�t have to make any decisions about D right now. Settle yourself, focus on you and your children and not H or the M. I do really see so many similarities between our Hs - I�m leaving / I�m staying / I love you / I�m leaving blah blah . I do think your H is confused and sorry to say that this has to happen for there to be any hope of repair. He doesn�t know what he wants - 4 weeks ago he wanted to recommit, now he says it�s over. He is in a world of pain and confusion. You are strong enough to deal with this, you will recover - with or without him. I would just drop the rope as much as possible. Don�t think about D because you may not be thinking rationally right now, and he certainly isn�t. You got this Sage {{{hugs}}}

Originally Posted by Sage4

Sage, first let me say I am sorry you had to tell the kids. I admit that telling my D was one of the things that scared me the most as looked forward to eventually splitting up if that is where my sitch ended up. I've often said, it if wasn't for my D, i probably would have told my W to hit the bricks the minute I found her EA. Especially since it was her second. But because of my D I took pause on that.

The good news is that the hardest part of your sitch is behind you. Now you can focus on being the best mother to those kids that you can be!

I do need to point something out to you:

Quote

H takes everything personally, whether it is from me or the kids. His ego-driven emotions (shame, guilt, etc) overwhelm him and render him unable to empathize or see anything beyond his own pain.

And then....

Quote

I am not sure if I should continue to stand for our M, or just throw in the towel already.

Is your H, right now, someone that you want to remain married to?? I really think the first quote above is your answer. He is no longer the man you married. He is a lying cheater. I would throw in towel until such a time he is no longer a lying cheater and can past his own ego. If that never happens then you can move on knowing that there was nothing you could do to save the marriage.

Also, "I keep trying to repeat the mantra 'I didn't break him, can't fix him' over and over. " Stop saying that. Stop being so available for him to dump on you. Learn to shut it down.

Him: "It is all your fault! You did this! You brought this about!"
You: "Stop. I refuse to stand her and have you blame me for YOUR problems." Then walk away.

Learn the art of firmly standing up for yourself, then walking away. If more LBSs could learn that when their lying cheating spouse is engaged in an A they'd be way better off for it.

Here is the thing, whether you believe it right now or not, you will be ok no matter what. You will be better than ok! You will be awesome and thrive!!

Sage my dear when WS/WAS are throwing vitriol at you like that you don't have to validate. And it isn't poor DBing if you don't. It's a good thing you can be objective and see that he can't see things for what they are vs. what he wants them to be. And it's good that you wish you were in a more zen place to validate. But I'll leave this here for food for thought for you.You absolutely refusing to agree with his version of things doesn't make you a bad DB'er or doing the wrong thing. Your boundary is reality. And that's a perfectly appropriate boundary to have.IMHO draw your line in the sand and keep it there like Steve85 said. Standing up for yourself and refusing to eat the blame he was trying to feed you is protecting yourself and your mental health from his crisis and you deserve those lines in the sand.

To go with that if you feel you need to validate in the future just to keep the peace or stay out of the fray, whatever it may be, a lot of vets suggest saying "I'm sorry you feel that way" and either repeat that like a chant as they throw more irrational word vomit at you or say it once and find a way to leave the situation. IMHO I feel that is one of the most patronizing things on the planet to say to another adult. I used "I understand you feel that way, and that's a really awful place to be." I'll acknowledge that that was his truth but I'd be d@mned if I was going to allow him to think I agreed with his version of things. There was a lot of "If I felt that way I'd probably want to leave too, but I'm sorry I just don't see our MR the way you do." Or "I'm sorry you're so miserable. I've never gone out of my way to make you feel like that. So I'm not sure how you'd like me to respond." A few times I went totally off the reservation and threw "You are getting everything you want, a new life, a new love, a new you, rid of me, a full re-writing of our history, but you're miserable? You're the miserable one? OK." No one is going to be a zen master through all of this. You have to forgive yourself for that.

Last if you want to throw in the towel, you throw in the towel my dear. If you want to stand, stand. If you want to fence sit while this separation plays out for a little while you go right ahead and do that. This is your journey. You'll stop standing when you are ready. You will keep standing if you feel that's right. And there's no shame in not knowing what you want in situations like these. Time is on your side.

Wayfarer, Cardinal, Pommy, Steve, thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your words and wisdom. It's been a rough week and your collective advice has seen me through some really bad moments.

I have to admit that him moving out has allowed me to emotionally detach in a way that I wasn't expecting. For the first time in 10 months I no longer dream of ways to fix our MR. In fact, when I read your words below Steve, it didn't even take me a microsecond for my heart to answer NO, without even a hint of sadness or longing.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Is your H, right now, someone that you want to remain married to??

The sadness I do feel is compassion and empathy for the person I was that spent so long taking all the blame for the downfall of my marriage and trying to fix herself based upon a list that had no end. I know that everyone must go through their own path, which will be longer or shorter depending on the person and situation, but I GET IT NOW when I read all the vets saying that they wished they had dropped the rope much, much sooner than they did. Not to save a marriage, but to save our own selves.

But I could still use some advice, please. Right now I want absolutely NOTHING to do with H. I want to step so far outside his reach so that a) he can no longer verbally or emotionally spew at me; and b) I am no longer within his orbit to blame everything on.

But we have the kids and are in the tentative beginnings of setting the stage for our coparenting relationship. And because he is so GD sensitive (ego-driven shame and guilt, everything about him and his pain), I am concerned that going NC or too dark will impact the kids too much.

What should I do?

Go dark within what's an appropriate limit for you. Going dark isn't falling of the face of the earth. It's conversing about the kids and "business" only, and being inaccessible in every other aspect. My exH and I literally only spoke about those things when I moved out. It took a while to find a balance. My H and I only spoke about those things when he was in the process of leaving. You don't have to be kind. Or talk about the weather. You don't have to respond immediately about kids or business stuff. You don't have to respond at all if it isn't kid or business stuff. A big one Steve85 taught me was not responding to informative texts. "I'm taking the kids to dinner at 7." My instinct was to ask more questions or at the very least respond with 'OK.' Leaving it alone was the best thing I ever chose to do. We both have iphones so he could see when I read his messages. A lot of people mistake going dark for active avoidance, complete disappearance, or something like that. IMO going dark is really more in relation to the light house theory. You're turning the light off. You and yours on your little seaside island are safe and sound. But that ship out at sea is on his own. Take that as you wish. But it helped me a lot in understanding how to handle 'going dark' living in the same house.

Wayfarer, the little seaside island analogy is perfect. I know it�s still early days for me and I am hopeful I will get to a place where I can keep our conversations only about business and kids and maintain my little safe island.

The hard thing for me is that he has this dream of us somehow being friends right now. I have clearly communicated that friendship for me includes empathy, apologies and each of us owning our side of the street (a hill that I am not willing to die on, but that�s my line in the sand).

Yesterday we were discussing schedules and kids. I have a milestone birthday in a couple weeks and my FOO have rented a lakeside house for a long weekend together with our kids. He asked what that was going to look like and I said �well, I thought I would have the kids for that time as their cousins will be there and it�s been planned for a year?� He said yes, of course you can have the kids, I was just wondering if I was invited too? I just looked at him and realized how out of touch he is. My brothers are fiercely protective of me right now... I know they would support whatever I decided was best for me and the kids, but what am I supposed to do here?

No, you aren�t invited. Sorry.

Honestly. Why would he even think that? Why would you want to spend your birthday with him? Or that any of your family will want to spend time with him? What a dumba$$. Sorry, don�t mean to be rude and I know my dumba$$ would probably say exactly the same thing. I hope you told him no. And then go and have a blast without him.

This seems easy to me Sage....he doesn�t want the family unit as it used to be, so he gets to sit this one out. This is the new normal, right - his plan doesn�t have you in it? Let him sulk, he�s the one who has chosen this path. (My H got all sulky just after we had separated when I organised a trip to the beach for me and the girls and he complained to them that he hadn�t been invited. Even they said to him that it would be rather awkward and he couldn�t understand why.)

Pommy said it much more nicely and more maturely than I did... and I agree with her 100%. Him going on this vacation is cake-eating. Don't facilitate it. It isn't fair to you (or him, honestly, if he doesn't get to see what S and D is really like.)

I'm here to 2nd and 3rd that. Coming from a person who left their ex and a person who was stuck with a person who wanted to leave desperately and also wanted to be buddies....you've made you're bed you lie in it. If you are feeling particularly kind you can say "No, you'll have to sit this one out. Maybe one day we'll be in a place to go somewhere together like that, but I can't predict the future. However, right now it's just going to be confusing for the kids. Sorry."

I guess I am not particularly kind. My response was to look at him wide-eyed in authentic shock and say �I think that would be a bit awkward, don�t you?�

I appreciate your expanded kinder response, Wayfarer. H and I come from different countries and there will be times in the future where travel will need to include both parents for logistical reasons. So I can�t dismiss this as a �never, ever shall we share the same extended family space ever in the future.�

Thanks guys for the support. Now please grant me the patience to navigate split time with grace... I am already furious about having to negotiate with him about doing something fun and worthwhile with my kids this week.

Well done Sage, sounds like the perfect response! I still dont get what goes on in their minds when they seem to believe that S/D means that life will go on as normal, just that they get to sleep with someone else as well. The fantasy S/D scenario is so warped - I remember early on H and I talked about our M and he said even if we get D he still wanted us to all go on annual holiday together. At the time he'd just started his EA and obviously it had never occurred to him that I might have my own BF who would want to come on holiday with me.

What is happening with the split time? Do you have an agreement in place? Is he being difficult?

I have been spending more time on the MLC board, but thought I would do a quick update here.

H wanted to come over for a visit on my actual birthday and I said no thank you. It was so hard to say that and so against my inclusive, forgiving nature. But the day before we had a discussion about the children and it turned into a gaslighting, spewing monster session and I just didn't want to deal with that. I am continuously shocked at his behavior towards me. I know I shouldn't be surprised by now, but I can't seem to let that old H go, the one that was adoring and loving and kind and affectionate. My heart expects him back at any moment, even though my brain tells me that he is long gone.

I went NC for the following few days and then we had yet another spewing session on our child exchange yesterday. This time he told me that his mother thinks I am controlling and a steamroller and some other nasty things. It made me cry, even though I didn't want to. Why does he have to build an army against me? I would never tell him if someone said something mean about him, ever. When I told him that, he turned it on me and said 'see how psychologically abusive you are? Great, now I get to live the rest of my life wondering who had said negative things about me.' The sad thing is, I don't let people talk negatively about him in my presence, he is the father of my children and was the love of my life.

This all makes me so sad, for my kids especially. All the lip service to doing this amicably, putting the kids first, etc etc etc all goes out the window the minute he sees me. It's as if I was the one who cheated and pulled out of the marriage. His anger is so toxic.

We are moving all communication to email, which will hopefully allow the toxicity to end. He moved out to find his happiness, but he is angrier than ever.

Hi Sage, I'm sorry to read how this is playing out, and how he is swinging wildly between wanting to be your BFF and next thing giving you a full-blown character assassination.

Do you really think your MIL said that about you? Chances are she didn't, or chances are that she responded to some fabrication of his, and was not reflecting on you at all. If MIL has dealt with a broken M herself (which I think I read on your MLC thread?) then I would go as far to say that she knows that there are two sides to every marriage breakup story.

H sounds like he is terribly confused and still needs to convince himself that he is doing the right thing. He left because he blamed you for making him unhappy. And he has left and is still unhappy....he will continue to find some way to blame you for making him unhappy. He will continue to convince himself that you are unreasonable, abusive, because that is all he has to cling on to for his rationale for leaving you. Well done for going NC - that too probably made him angry! Don't take it personally Sage, don't let him drag you down with him. x

I finally was able to emotionally handle reading some other's posts. I have been in survival mode since my husband moved out 7 weeks ago. Sage, your H sounds a lot like mine. The taking everything personally, attacking you verbally, wanting his EA/PA (in my case it is a friend he claims he is just "friends" with but they get along oh so well) yet also wanting to be good friends with you.

I had a milestone birthday 3 weeks after he moved out and WAH wanted to participate in all the birthday things with me. I was astounded and even though I really wanted to say yes, I told him heck no. It was really hard as it was the first birthday in 16 years I have spent without him, but I am glad I stood my ground. I hope you got to enjoy your day and I'm sorry you had to spend it in the middle of all this mess. Hang in there.

Rachel...my advice to you is to read as many threads and posts as you can. I did and it helped me immensely. There is strength in numbers and real comfort in knowing you are not alone. You can also learn from others� mistakes which is an added bonus. Sorry for the hijack Sage.

Hi Sage,

Just wanted to second everything Pommy said. You have no idea what your MIL really said and also what she's heard from him. You also know in your bones that what he's saying is BS-- the brokenness inside him is driving him to say terrible things in order to convince himself he's doing the right thing. The fact that he's continuing to be so unhappy and poisonous just shows what a bad place he's in.

My guess... though I know we're not supposed to be mindreading and above it all... is that by refusing to be his BFF and celebrate your BD with him, etc., he's seeing his fantasy D situation start to disintegrate. Of course that is awful for him, and it is all your fault, since if you would only have gone along with what he wanted and been a happy and supportive ex-W who is so glad to be BFFs with her ex and so glad he's found true love, he would have everything he wanted. Now he doesn't get that anymore and of course is blaming you.

I'm going to guess you'll be the recipient of more bile for awhile if you don't go NC. He has no-one else to lash out at but you, unless he's going to start looking at himself. That can't happen if you're still around to feed his narrative that you're the reason for all his problems. So I say stick with the NC as much as possible and just do your very best not to get drawn into his cr@p.

Hopefully, the NC and moving communication to email is letting you get some light into the situation and keeping you from getting sucked into his mess.

HUGS.

Thank you Pommy, Rachel and May (and DV, hijack all you want, girl, always!)

I was re-reading old texts the other day and one at the beginning of the summer where my MIL thanked me for the magical summer we had last year and how sad she was that we weren't able to recreate it this year (Covid). Did she say those things about me that H relayed? Probably. But is it the whole truth? Probably not. Moving on, it's all just noise.

Originally Posted by may22

You also know in your bones that what he's saying is BS-- the brokenness inside him is driving him to say terrible things in order to convince himself he's doing the right thing. The fact that he's continuing to be so unhappy and poisonous just shows what a bad place he's in.

I know this deep down, but it makes me concerned for his mental well-being. Especially as he has my children for part of the time. Nothing I can do at this point, but move along and keep one eye always open for the well-being of my children.

Originally Posted by may22

My guess... though I know we're not supposed to be mindreading and above it all... is that by refusing to be his BFF and celebrate your BD with him, etc., he's seeing his fantasy D situation start to disintegrate. Of course that is awful for him, and it is all your fault, since if you would only have gone along with what he wanted and been a happy and supportive ex-W who is so glad to be BFFs with her ex and so glad he's found true love, he would have everything he wanted. Now he doesn't get that anymore and of course is blaming you.

I'm going to guess you'll be the recipient of more bile for awhile if you don't go NC. He has no-one else to lash out at but you, unless he's going to start looking at himself. That can't happen if you're still around to feed his narrative that you're the reason for all his problems. So I say stick with the NC as much as possible and just do your very best not to get drawn into his cr@p.

This. SO true. My intuition has been yelling at my to get the F out of the way. That if I want to truly protect and potentially save him, he needs the space to figure out vis-a-vis his own undoing. And his own (fingers-crossed) remaking.

The spewing and vileness has continued. My therapist shared that mentally ill people need strong boundaries, which I have recently implemented with tentative positive results. Not in a marriage-saving way, but in a me-saving way. The further along in this process I get, the more detached I get. In fact, at this very moment, I really want nothing to do with him, I want OUT of this destructive relationship and his human horror show.

His EAP sent presents to my kids. I want to vomit. It's one thing to gaslight me, but don't you dare gaslight my children into sending a thank you cards to the very person that has destroyed their life as they know it. I need advice as to what I should do...

Getting good advice here.

About the gifts, did the kids see them already?

Hey

Re gifts- havent had gifts sent to my kids but when H went with ow and kids for a day out they come back with a keyring that had a picture of all 4 of them..... needless to say its in the bin! I mean i didn't react at all, but after a couple of weeks whilst tidying up my sons room the keyring disappeared along with some toys that they have bought that day.

I can also relate to mh issues, im starting to think that my H behaviour has little to do with waywardness but there are bigger issues at play. And i of course want to help him, but i stay clear and just keep an eye on the kids. I think this is the only way to go, because firstly he doesnt thibk he has issues and secondly he wouldn't take my advise anyway.

Gigi - That key ring with a pic of the four of them makes me want to vomit on your behalf. Some people have zero class.

Sage: RE: gifts from unwanted sources. Out of your control, I�m afraid. If your H wants them to get gifts from her, they will get them. So no point in trying to run interference, IMO. But...I would not facilitate any writing of thank you cards. Good for you for not reacting. If you want your kids to get through this as unscathed as possible, you need to get good at that.

My H introduced our kids to OW three months before I found out about his double life...as the mother of a student of his (lie - kid went to his school but was never in his class). After that it was as his roommate until eventually they got used to her and she just became part of their dad�s life. I remember thinking how unfair and inappropriate it was. I would have loved to tell them EXACTLY what their dad did and OW�s part in it. But...in the end, I chose better not bitter (thanks to the folks on here) and I kept my kids out of it as much as possible (they were 10...they figured some things out on their own) and never made them feel bad for wanting to see their dad or for liking OW. And now that I am happy and doing well, I am really, really glad I did. They spend 50% of their time with their dad and OW. If anything ever happened to me, they would spend 100% of their time with them so it is important to me that they feel comfortable, safe and guilt-free when they are with them. Even though XH and OW don�t deserve it, my kids do.

Anyway...that�s an opinion from someone who has walked a mile in your shoes and made it to the end. I never thought I would get there. If you read my thread from my early days, you will see how devastated I was. But little by little, step by step, I let go of him and the life I thought I would lead and began to embrace the one I do have...and it�s a really good one. You can get there too. (((HUGS)))

It was low definitely, but like you said i didn't react didnt make a face or comment. I just dealt with it. But with you on the fact if it was a large gift sent To kids i would have to accept it.

The little things like chocolate or pack of crisps i just put in the bin, i stick to healthy eating with kids and we dont have junk at home and H knows that but still passes on stuff like that.

Hi Sage,

Re your H's mental well-being... it does seem he is in a dark place and it has got to be really difficult to parse out all the things you're feeling, the anger/hurt/betrayal for what he's done, the concern/worry for someone you care about (or even just the father of your children, hoping it doesn't affect his parenting) and all the conflict inherent there. Ugh. All I can say is you seem like you're really doing well, able to recognize all of this while it is happening, protecting yourself so you can be the best mom you can, while still having empathy for him as a human being. It is pretty amazing-- YOU are pretty amazing.

From all I've read, being sure your kids know they can talk to you about ANYTHING is really important now-- you don't want them to not tell you something because they don't want to upset you, make you mad at dad, etc. Practice your validating skills on them!

Also, if you haven't read Wooba's thread, especially earlier on, you might-- her H struggles a lot with depression and alcoholism and she had some times where she was legitimately worried about him, suicidal comments, etc.

On the gifts.... ooooh, girl. That burns me just thinking about it. Seriously. Also... WHY would she do this? That is just nuts. I agree with the others-- it is not within your control, but you are under no obligation to get them to write thank you cards. I don't think your H is in a place where any conversation about the inappropriateness of that behavior would be productive. I would do my best to ignore it. And if the gifts eventually get lost or broken, oh well.

As an aside, if I were you, I would stop calling it an EA or her an EAP. Maybe this is just me, but I know at least for me when I thought it was "just" an EA and then found out it was a PA, it changed my perspective somewhat on everything. I felt like when I thought it was "just" an EA it was somehow less of a transgression and the "EA" term minimized it somehow. I think here on the boards there is a bit of that too, the idea that an EA is not as bad or more forgivable than a PA. (I certainly know my H thought so, which was why he lied about it for so long.) Whether it was "just" an EA or a PA... I don't know that it changes anything in terms of his behavior and his choices and what they mean for you, unless the PA is a bright line for you. Would it make a difference for you?

Anyway. I think I said this earlier, but when you had your mini-reconciliation, it sounded like his guilt was so deep that (not knowing him of course, but) it seemed excessive if he hadn't crossed the physical line. And, the fact that she is sending gifts to the kids... that is so weird and seems like they might have some happily ever after fantasy going on here. I'm not trying to be a pessimist, just want you to be prepared.

And... gentle 2x4.. the AP didn't destroy the kids lives as they know it. Your H did. She was a partner in it but he is the one who has made and is making these choices. She means nothing, truly. (I am saying this but also to myself as I struggle a lot with demonizing the AP rather than facing the fact that my H is truly more responsible than she is.)

Of course you don't want to tell your children that their father is ruining their lives, so much easier to blame her... but she's a wacko who thinks it is OK to have an affair with a married man, destroy his family and potentially her own, and send his children presents. (Because, you know, true love.) She is not worthy of even your contempt. If he was thinking straight, he wouldn't let her do this and put the kids in this position, but he's in la-la land. You'll just have to be the strong one, the bigger person, and know that you're doing the right things for the right reasons.

DejaVu... holy cow. I have so much admiration for your strength and ability to rise above in order to do the best you possibly can by your kids. Thanks for sharing-- it is really good for all of us here to see what life can be like on the other side.

Thinking of you, Sage. xx

Sending a virtual hug.

Well crazy a$$ ex is a place I can help most. Literally get everything in writing.Every interaction. Anything that can be put into a legal and/or notarized document the better. Reach out to his mother yourself. Go out of your way to tell her you have no intention of ending any relationship between her and the children, and that you'd never want her to worry about that. (I know H hasn't said this to her yet, but he will, trust me) Then make sure you tell her what H said she said and try to give her a small outline of your side of things. And tell her your very sorry if she now feels in the middle but you felt it was important for her to know the things her son is saying and doing, including putting words in her mouth. Because dollars to donuts he was lying through his teeth about that whole thing. You are no longer in save this marriage mode you are in save yourself mode. Do every thing you can to protect yourself and your reputation with those close to you. He will do everything he can to make you look like poo. My exH literally told people he kicked me out because I had cheated. It had been 4 years since I ended the affair. Ignoring literally everything he did in the years following or prior including his AODA and mental health issues. The real reason I packed my things and left.

Next also dollars to doughnuts that EA isn't just an EA. Especially if she's sending the kids gifts. But I'm not 100% on that those gifts are actually from her. If she's still maintaining the facade of her family I'd bet H got those gifts and said they were from her to prime the kids for interactions with her and to p!ss you off. But I'm also starting to wonder if this really was an EA if your H has this built up way more in his head than she does like my H did. They were riding off into the sunset in his head. She was just filling her time. And I was the only one who could see it.

Do not send thank you notes.

Lastly, I second May. You can't put the weight of this on OW. Should she know better? Of course. But you were his wife. Those are his kids. These have been his choices. She was there, but he just as easily could've walked away 1,000 times but didn't

I am struggling with something and could use some advice.

We had a child�s birthday recently and spent the day together as a family. It was so hard for me. I don�t like the thought of the children not having both of us on their special day, but it took such a toll on me that I don�t think I can do it again. At least not in the short term.

How did you navigate this if you have been through it before? I am working on my boundaries and this feels like a boundary that I need to make. My kids need me to be my best self and spending this much time with H the way he currently is sets me back emotionally.

I don�t want to play happy family. I don�t even want to be friends right now. I want space to heal.

But am I being unreasonable?

S,

I�m sorry you had such a rough day. IMO Christmas and birthdays don�t count as playing happy family. If you think it�s good for the kids then you should probably do it for them. At least until a certain age.

I can tell you a little story . We split birthdays in the beginning. We were separated when our daughter was 6 months old. On her second birthday I worked the night shift leading into her birthday, so he had our daughter to return her to me at 6 pm. I decided to go get her a bunch of balloons for when she came home . In the strip mall there was a Chuck E. Cheese I had to walk past . I look in the window and there is my daughter, my ex, his AP, and sister and father . I almost died. It was awful to be on the outside looking in at my daughter. My family. And her. Through a window.

Ever since then we have decided to spend our daughters birthday, only the 3 of us.

Today, she actually turned 13. We went horseback riding and to dinner and he came back to our house for a while to relax and have some cake. We have done this every year since.

It gets easier as the years go on. For me , personally, it was so hard to watch my baby have a birthday without me. I was quite a key player in her birth, lol. But for me, the pain of not having her was greater than the pain of having her with my ex.

You have to decide what works for you.

We don�t spend holidays together. But her birthday was something special between the 3 of us.

It�s probably her favorite day of the year too, to have us together having fun together. She loves it

Not at all. It's very reasonable. You don't need permission to say no to something that doesn't serve you. Write a clause into your parenting plan that says whoever doesn't have the kids on their birthday will see them for four hours after school. It's okay to explain this boundary to your kids if you decide to implement it. Your feelings matter as well.

Originally Posted by Sage4

I don�t want to play happy family. I don�t even want to be friends right now. I want space to heal.

But am I being unreasonable?

I don't think it is unreasonable at all. I (finally) know EXACTLY how you feel, though it took me a really long time to get there. You deserve to take the space you need to heal and do what it takes to be the best mama you can to those four little ones.

That being said, also don't feel like you have to decide right now what will work for you forever. When is your next kid birthday? if it is right around the corner then by all means, figure out something to get the space you need so that you can properly focus on your child when you are with them. If you have a few months, maybe give it some time and see how you feel as you get closer.

(((SAGE))) I have been thinking so much of you. You are such a giving, kind, incredible, empathetic soul. Your H is a dumb@ss IMHO.

xoxo M

Sage, this is such a difficult situation. Both my Ds had birthdays within 5 weeks of H leaving. (14 & 16). Both times we spent the day as a happy family (at our house as we were in lockdown) then late evening he would go back to his rental. It broke my heart both times and took me days to recover. I don't know how much my girls benefitted from the happy family scenario. Perhaps they spent the day hoping that dad wouldn't go back to his other house that night; perhaps it broke their heart too when he left at the end of the day; perhaps it didn't affect them negatively at all. It hurt me seeing separate cards in the house from mum, and from dad. I also resented giving him a wonderful family day, entertaining him, giving him the best of me (in front of Ds) to make sure they had a lovely day.

I did it because I thought it was best for them. It didn't occur to me at the time (because I didn't feel it until afterwards myself) that it might be painful for them. They also had to witness me not holding it together very well for a couple of days afterwards.

How old are your children, and when is the next birthday event? You may be more detached by then; it may be an opportunity to show both yourself and H how far you have come. if the event is quite soon, then perhaps think about how much you can handle - if not a full day together, how about a shortened, fixed window of time; maybe a neutral location, then you can be the one to get up and leave. Can you think about alternative scenarios to what you have just experienced, or what you would do traditionally, and see if there is one that allows you to do what's best for the child, whilst minimizing the emotional impact on you?

Sending hugs {{{Sage}}} x

H and I both do not share birthdays or Xmas with our exes. Both exes get Xmas Eve or in my case my ex in-laws. We get the girls Xmas Day. Honestly my ex in-laws are far more likely to be with us for D17's birthday than they are with my exH. My exH on more than one occasion has completely forgotten her birthday or never got her anything or both. For D16 it's a weekend prior and weekend after and who ever's weekend it is that's their birthday weekend. Their 50/50 switch off historically was Saturdays so it just always kind of worked out even if her Bday fell on a weekend. Kids especially young ones are easily won over by the concept of a long and stretched out birthday with multiple celebrations. Same with Christmas. They adapt. It's really more us that have to reset our brains that things have changed. We have to let go of those expectations we had about all those future milestones and hoildays. And in those early years being alone is hard, but it's best to make plans and keep busy. But for most of us we meet someone new, we develop a new routine and new traditions, and it all just kind of becomes your new normal before you know it.

Hi friends!

I have been spending more time over in the MLC forum, but thought I would post an update here and check in with you all.

Thanks for all the support following the birthday situation. I have been learning a lot about boundaries and how to put boundaries in place that protect my emotional well-being. It has been a work in progress, but I am slowly getting there.

H has a work trip coming up where he will be seeing the OW. I am trying to be brave about this fact, but it does trigger a lot of intense emotions in me. Last week, H and I had a conversation about how to break down the barriers between us to facilitate better coparenting and the OW and his continued lying to me about his relationship with her came up. He told me his love life is none of my business, which is true, but in the face of Covid, the stakes are very different.

I am working on a boundary here that protects the health of me and the children upon his return. Due to his lies and deceptions, I have to make the assumption that he will be physical with her and that changes what his return will look like for us in terms of quarantining, testing etc. If he were doing a work trip for another client, I would not have the same requirements.

During that conversation when we discussed the barriers to our best coparenting, H mentioned that he had read some journals that I had 'left open' (hahaha) and in one of them, written when I was 19, I explored my feelings for a BF at the time. He used that as ammunition to accuse ME of never loving HIM because I had told him I never had felt the way I did about anyone else other than him. Which is 100% true; H was the love of my life and I have never, ever, ever felt the way about anyone else as I did him.

We are approaching a year since my spidey senses alerted me to something not being right with H and his R with OW. Since that time, he has changed his narrative of why he was leaving me from: a list of all the things I did wrong as a human > H was miserable for a year > we never had a spark > wait! H has been miserable for 13 years! > we got married too young (haha, we married at a average age and both had completed our Masters') > I always made him feel guilty for traveling for work and I was too demanding when he was at work > I am manipulative, controlling and psychologically abusive (he has since rescinded these accusations) > I have never loved HIM (evident in teenage journals).

Most of this is complete nonsense, of course, but it has taken me a full year of listening to all of this, acknowledging my role, attempting to change my behavior, tiptoeing around, apologizing and trying to make amends for me to FULLY recognize that this is really not about me. And never was.

So in light of all of this, I am trying desperately to reclaim my sense of self-esteem, stop being scared of H's reaction and move confidently ahead in the direction of the life I am meant to live. Which at this point, seems very likely to be without H in it. Which makes me so, so sad. But I am slowly reaching acceptance that this person who I loved so deeply is just not the same person anymore and may never be again.

Filing for D does not make any financial difference to me at this point so I have no need to move things forward. In lieu of this, I am working on internally filing an emotional divorce so that I can try and heal as best I can.

xx

Hi Sage,

Just a few thoughts for you.

One, do not take $hit for one second about your decisions about the safety of your children in/re Covid. He may act like an a-hole about this trip and quarantining, but don't let that wear you down. I'm just going to give you all the reinforcement I can here. This virus is a big, big deal. Children are getting it. Even if they aren't too badly affected now, we have no idea how it could affect them in the future. The heart damage they're seeing to young and healthy athletes is very freaky. if your H wants to go off and see the OW (sorry, I'm also having a hard time understanding what work trips are remotely necessary right now), he can go ahead and quarantine for 14 days when he gets back. Do you have any quarantine rules in your state/county/city? That can be a pretty simple thing to follow.

Two, I know you know this, but do not let yourself get dragged into his ridiculous narrative. Reading your diaries from when you were a teenager? And then trying to tell you that because of what he read in your TEENAGE DIARY he can criticize your feelings for him, your husband and the father of your children, and what you had said to him about how much you loved him? What an @ss! Seriously! I hope you let that garbage just go in one ear and out the other.

I also had read something you'd posted that had stuck out to me awhile back, not sure if it was on this thread or your MLC one-- about how H had let you down in a co-parenting moment with your kids. Is there a way you can arrange things so that you don't need to depend on him for this kind of thing? that is one little thing I've been doing-- in the moments where the old me would have called on H to help with something, from getting down a dish from a tall shelf to talking to a recalcitrant child-- I am taking a deep breath and diving in on my own and just getting it done. it feels good. You are such an incredible mom and organizer I have no doubt you can handle everything on your own with your eyes closed if you needed to... and maybe it wouldn't be a bad thing just to imagine he is totally unreliable for the moment (even though he does have moments of reliability) and just take care of $hit on your own like the bad boss mama you are.

How is the joint business going in all of this?

Journaling.

I posted some of this on the MLC forum, but also wanted to put this here on Newcomers, because I don't think I am alone in what I have experienced and I am always so appreciative of people's wisdom, experience and advice.

H told me the other day when we were talking about the fact that I didn't see this coming, that I felt blindsided by all of this: 'that's the reason; you didn't pay attention to the signs.'

Despite me checking in regularly with him to make sure he and we were both happy, heading in the direction we both wanted etc. We have always had at least one very intentional 'state of the union' and goal-making sessions a year, where we would go away for a night or two and talk about all the things going right and wrong in our life and what to do about them. We also were honest (or so I thought) about our deepest feelings with and toward one another on a regular basis.

I asked him how I was supposed to know if every time we had a conversation, he said 'things are fine, I'm just stressed-tired-overwhelmed with work' and then we would go on to make big plans like travel or a major home remodel. Was I supposed to mind read?

I am sure that the OW had a hold on him long before I thought she did. I just wish he could be honest about it all so I could truly move on.

I know that questioning this is likely an exercise in futility, but finding some common ground with others in this same situation makes me feel more grounded and less crazy.

xx

(((sage)))

TBH, it sounds like you guys were doing absolutely everything right. My H and I never had state of the unions or intentional goal-setting sessions... that sounds amazing.

Originally Posted by Sage4

I am sure that the OW had a hold on him long before I thought she did. I just wish he could be honest about it all so I could truly move on.

I'm going to guess you are correct on this. And... that is on HIM, not on you. He is the one with the communication issues (FFS, you guys are having regular conversations about your M and future and he can't spit out that he is having trouble??). Don't let him gaslight you on this by telling you that you should have seen the signs. He is reinventing the past to justify his own selfish choices.

I can totally relate to wanting to KNOW. That is 100% me too. I will say that as difficult as all the revelations have been for me, knowing I wasn't crazy, seeing his behavior two years ago now through the lens of the A and him planning on his "escape" from the M so so long ago... it does help, reading the scripts here, understanding the mental gymnastics that allowed him to justify his own behavior by demonizing me. So I totally, totally get it.

But... gentle 2x4... the part of needing the honesty in order to truly move on... I just don't know if you're ever going to get it, or if it matters in the long run. It feels hard for me to think about you linking your own mental health and recovery to your H's ability to be honest.... because, let's face it, it definitely isn't his strong suit. And it seems like he's really having a hard time admitting even to himself what is going, what with the odd behavior at your child's birthday party, the continued lies, spewing, and gaslighting. I am concerned that you needing to know his truth on this as a prerequisite to your own growth and recovery will leave you stuck. Is it possible for you to focus on you, your own truth, and let go of caring what is in his addled mind?

My H's father is starting to go downhill, mentally. He also spends most of his waking hours watching Fox News and my H and his brother are really having a terrible time understanding how their devout, Catholic father has turned into this batsh!t crazy, angry Trumper. My H is really struggling. He feels like his relationship with his father is irretrievably damaged, and keeps trying to figure out what went wrong, did he not really know his dad before, was he always like this inside but masked it, or did something change?

I asked him, can you just imagine your dad is mentally ill? This is part of what is happening with his dementia? So in the same vein I wonder for you-- can you imagine your H is mentally ill? That his version of what happened in the past and is happening now is just as skewed from reality as my FIL's? There is no real understanding to be had, and waiting or hoping for it is just pulling you down.

You wrote on Scout's thread about her H still being able to pull her strings in parenting conversations-- I feel like maybe, similarly, this is a way your H is continuing to control you by p!ssing on your need to understand what happened, to believe in what you know to be true and the real love you did have between the two of you. It was real. It is real. He is a mess, a total mess, and who knows even if he did tell you his truth today whether or not it was really the truth of a year ago or will be the truth tomorrow. Have confidence in your own gut and perceptiveness and empathy, toss out your need to understand like a crumpled up piece of paper, and stride on.

(((sage))) you are so amazing and strong. xx M

Sage I am really sorry you are struggling right now. When two people are living together it's often easier to try to keep the peace and not rock the boat. I'm just wondering what kind of answer would be acceptable to you? I also wonder if your not looking for a reason to hold on? There is no doubt what happen to you is a terrible thing for you and your children but I think in the future you will start to see things more clearly and be thankful he ripped the band aid right off. Would you rather have one of these flip floppy WAS where the LBS has to keep reliving the pain and heartache?

It will get easier I promise you but you have to let go of the fact that you are most likely never going to understand what happened.

I'm sorry.

Originally Posted by may22

Thanks, May, I needed validation here.

It is the gaslighting that is getting to me the most in all of my situation. Which is really at the root of me reaching out on this board. As you mention, I have no doubt that the truth from H has shifted and morphed and will continue to do so over the future weeks/months/years. I am not sure that I am really looking or waiting for the truth from him to allow me to move on.

I believe what I am reaching out for is validation, common experience (those GD scripts that seem to permeate all of our situations), stories and affirmation. I have been gaslit for so long, I don't trust my own bearing. This board is my own personal lighthouse, guiding me back to sanity and helping me recover my own deep sense of understanding, my intuition and the road to recovery of my personhood.

When I read something that someone says about their situation that is uncannily similar to mine, it helps contradict the gaslighting and pull me back into my center. Because really, what are the odds that so many people would hear the same thing from their spouses (ie heavy walking...ha.)

Originally Posted by may22

I can totally relate to wanting to KNOW. That is 100% me too. I will say that as difficult as all the revelations have been for me, knowing I wasn't crazy, seeing his behavior two years ago now through the lens of the A and him planning on his "escape" from the M so so long ago... it does help, reading the scripts here, understanding the mental gymnastics that allowed him to justify his own behavior by demonizing me. So I totally, totally get it.

I believe in a few things right now, though tentatively:

1. I won't likely get revelations or the truth from H
2. I don't believe I was (or currently am) crazy
3. I can move on without H's permission; I can move on without answers or an 'aha!' moment
4. I will likely be fine in the long term, thought I am struggling mightily now

And the second allure of this board for me are little gems like this (thanks LH! xx):

Originally Posted by LH19

There is no doubt what happen to you is a terrible thing for you and your children but I think in the future you will start to see things more clearly and be thankful he ripped the band aid right off. Would you rather have one of these flip floppy WAS where the LBS has to keep reliving the pain and heartache?

It will get easier I promise you but you have to let go of the fact that you are most likely never going to understand what happened.

I can't fully digest them when I initially receive these messages, but as the months unfold, I see the veracity in them and they bring a lot of comfort.

Thank you both for responding to my plea for guidance. I am eternally grateful for the conversation.

xxx

Oh, and Sage-- I was thinking of you the other night. We had an outdoor dinner with some friends. The H and W haven't seemed to get along super well for the year or so-- there were a couple of weirdly tense moments during the evening that I may only be picking up on because of our own situation, like when the W asked the H to do something and he bristled, said to me why would you ask me to do that right now? I'm in a conversation with May! You should have asked for that before! And the W just ignored it so I did too, but I felt uncomfortable.

Anyway. The W is this super petite woman and they have a tiny, adorable D5 (and a S7). The H had been on a trip and quarantined in the basement in-law suite for a couple of weeks when he returned. The W told me that the H is complaining that the W walks TOO HEAVY and has taught the D5 to as well! I wanted to say, OMG, you need to nip this BS in the BUD, chica. She isn't someone I would confide in for a bunch of reasons-- we're not that close personally for one-- but I was like, OMG. OMG OMG OMG. What is wrong with these dudes?

You aren't crazy. Share your stories and the lines you get from him and all of us can validate you back up the wazoo. The script does really help me too. xx

Sage,

Came to read your stich after you posted on my thread, my first instinct is to want to give you a huge ((((Hug))). I am so sorry you've had to go through this. I also want to say thank you for sharing so much. I've learned a lot from your experience. Primarily, I am certain that I do not want to be separated from my wife and remain in the same household. I can't and won't be able to emotionally handle it. I am at the stage where I am crying daily. Have had some serious breakdowns in the shower and barely sleep. The lack of sleep is beginning to effect me physically. In my head, Ive given myself a month to get my affairs in order and move out. I know I do not want to be here for Thanksgiving. Holidays have always been a huge family event. I can't sit here and pretend.

Hello, I just read your sich. I�m sorry your going through this. I don�t have much advice but I do know that this community has been very helpful during my separation. Reading all the stories has been healing for me. Take care

Sage, just read your story. Wow. I'm a LBH also in a similar situation,but perhaps worse because my STBXW isn't talking. It's been a year for me, if I can be of some help answering questions let me know. I will say this -- I've been on this forum now for 2 months and I didn't get it for the first few weeks. Now I do. I feel like a veteran here.

One of those is wanting answers. I wanted answers so badly but I have accepted the fact that I will never get them. I can see that in your situation too.

My condolences, hang in there, and don't be afraid to reach out to any of us.