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Posted By: may22 Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/25/20 09:11 AM
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https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2897630&page=all

Quick recap-- H had a 2 year long distance PA. Two daughters, aged 8 and 10. I found out full extent at the end of December, we went through six weeks of DC and incredible ambivalence where H wanted both AP as a lover and me as best friend/co-parent. He decided to end the A in mid-February though his decision was based more on the kids, inability to continue the current situation for all of us because of the overwhelming stress, and AP's desire to have children (she's 11 years younger than me and H firmly does not want more children) rather than a desire for me as a wife. We had four months of getting along very well, enjoying family time with the lockdown, planning for the future. We stopped MC during lockdown as no childcare and H wanted to take a break given the potential stress of MC and quarantine together. Then a week and a half ago I found out that three weeks ago he got back in touch with AP-- she'd texted him to say she was moving on, he reached out to see if she was OK with the protests in her area-- and all of a sudden we have rewound back to January. He's scared he is going to miss out on this one chance to be happy, back to his fantasy D scenario where we remain best friends and we co-own the house and have dinner together with the kids, insisting that we make this decision together. (Which I refuse to do.) Blah blah blah. Oh, and AP loves him sooooo much she is willing to give up the chance to have children to be with him.

When I just typed that, I can't believe it has only been a week and a half since I was whiplashed from thinking I was maybe, maybe tiptoeing close to piecing with my H, planning a new consulting business for myself, and exhausting most of my mental energy on all the crazy and awful things that are happening in our country and our world right now into this awful gut-wrenching place again. At least I've lost those 7 lbs I'd put back on over quarantine.

Working on defining and enforcing my boundaries, exploring and embracing my anger towards H, really trying to think about whether or not this is someone I want in my life any more than absolutely necessary, let alone as my H. And, took a couple major steps today, consulting an attorney and talking to an IC (I had one appointment back in January with someone, didn't really click, and felt MC would suffice for me at that point. Now have weekly sessions set up with this IC who I like). I've been sitting in what splitting up might look and feel like, the concrete steps I'd want to take to move forward, and am becoming more and more comfortable with the idea.

Originally Posted by scout12
May, I get the sense you're uncomfortable with the word abuse being applied to your situation. Does it help to think of it in a literal sense - the exploitation of a power imbalance for personal gain? Or as wikipedia puts it - the improper usage of a thing to unfairly gain benefit. In your case, it's covert rather than overt.

Traumatic bonding can occur between the abuser and victim as the result of ongoing cycles of abuse in which the intermittent reinforcement of reward and punishment creates powerful emotional bonds that are resistant to change and a climate of fear. I do wonder if this resonates with you at all.

Hi Scout, thanks for posting this. The literal meaning of the word does apply to my situation, for sure. Emotional manipulation, absolutely. My H knows all my pain points, mostly around the children, as well as how to butter me up (I'm a total acts of service girl) and so is pushing those buttons to guilt me into... what? I guess that is where I get a little stuck. No amount of talking on his part is going to get me to be okay with some sort of polygamous crazy train world that he imagines is possible. The current situation is not exactly fun for anyone. He's a wreck, I'm a wreck, kids are watching more TV than they should. (They actually think that part is pretty awesome.) I guess maybe he's sneaking calls or texts to AP and getting his jollies off on them, while still having the family home or whatever? I mean, that is pretty pathetic (for all of us). Maybe this is why I'm shying away from the term "abuse" since he isn't getting what he wants. I'm the big bad wife that won't sign off on his ticket to Fantasyland.

The other thing is as much as I've rolled my eyeballs at his narrative that I controlled everything in our R-- which *is* patently untrue-- I will say that to the extent there has been a power imbalance in our R, it probably has always resided a little more on my side than his throughout our M. I think that power struggles were part of the dynamic that led to the SSM-- not overt power struggles, but little things. It really is only since the A and explicitly since he told me what was going on and I made my position (far too) clear, that I wanted to stand for the M-- that the power shifted so dramatically to him. That isn't to excuse his current behavior at all, but it isn't part of a long-term pattern or cycle. And through all of this I'm learning a lot about my own controlling and manipulative behaviors that I wasn't even really aware of.

The IC conversation was helpful, and I think I can enforce my boundaries a bit better for having thought them through out loud with her. Alison, your boundaries posts have helped me so much here.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/25/20 01:01 PM
I understand the desire to be careful with the abuse label. My W accused me on and after BD, of having been abusive. Never physically, but she claimed I was emotionally abusive.

While I think that word gets overused in a lot of cases, and while I didn't like to see myself as an emotional abuser, it was a situation where her perspective was her reality. Certain my behavior over the years didn't make me innocent in those accusations. I had become an angry, bitter guy that would lash out. We had a SSM that weighed heavily on me. My W was never a great housekeeper. And before my D was born we shared the household duties. Though I probably did 60-70% of it only because I am a bit of a Type A, anal retentive, mildly OCD neat-freak. When my D was born we decided she would stay home and be a SAHM. And over the years her 50-60% housekeeping slipped to even less than it was prior to us having our D. I was routinely coming home from work, working 8-10 hours, and spending nearly an hour both ways to work, and doing a large amount of the housework. And I became pretty vocal about my displeasure over it. I would do it angrily, saying things under my breath. And would be passive-aggressive with her over it (I suffered from a moderate case of NGS). It got even worse when I took another job for a few years where I was working an avg of 70 hours a week, and at times 100+ hours/week.

By time BD in 2017 rolled around, I had been isolating myself from the family, in the MBR watching TV or being on my work laptop working. The only time I wasn't was when I was participating in my pastimes out of the house. Gun range, hunting, and affiliated activities (outdoor shows, working on the hunting property, etc).

Looking back, while I was not well-mannered, I certainly didn't feel abusive. But again, I cannot fault my W for feeling that way. So since that time I've learned two things:

1) Poor behavior can be viewed as abusive
2) The abused do not always recognize that they are being abused.

That second point is where my W was at. She didn't feel like I was abusive (she grew up in a home with a father that physically abused her mother), but as she discussed things with other people (her friends, EAPs etc) they would point out that what I was doing was abusive. And while I don't agree with it, again my behavior certainly didn't mean I could claim innocence either.

I think #2 above is important to keep in mind though. Being a doormat is never fun. Even if it isn't real abuse, sometimes LBWs especially don't recognize it. And while it may not feel all out abusive, it certainly is mistreatment. We can dismiss it as the WAS being angry, bitter, hurt, etc. I see LBSs that beat themselves up all the time. But the truth is that there is no excuse for the behavior of a WAS that mistreats, manipulates, lies to their LBS. So while I don't necessarily agree with you that he isn't being abusive, I could concur not to use that word as long as you realize that what he is doing is NOT okay. And it sounds like you do.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/25/20 06:04 PM
Hi Steve,

Thanks for sharing that part of your story. And I am fine (now, took me some time) with you or anyone using the term 'abuse'-- I believe that an affair in and of itself is abusive, no matter how you want to justify it. And whether or not I use the term abuse, the behavior he is displaying right now-- trying to get me to agree with him, talking about AP even when I've told him I don't want to hear it, saying that not being friends with him if we split is my choice, not his, and would negatively affect the girls-- that is all totally f-ed up behavior and no matter where it comes from, it is not okay and I need to respect myself and my own boundaries enough to put a stop to it. I don't need to listen to it. Someone said to me on here (wayfinder?) just because his ship is floundering doesn't mean I need to go down with the ship. I need to step off and get into my own lifeboat.

Originally Posted by unchien
I like your IC. Your H has been jerking you around for months at his whim. I agree with your IC and others like Blu that getting in touch with your anger will be a good thing.

However you label it (I hate labels generally), your H is definitely emotionally manipulative. He constantly [censored] you into R talks. I think setting some hard boundaries to limit this behavior will help you greatly. If you don't change this pattern, he has no reason to change and like others here I think it's not healthy at all for you.

Thanks, U. I'm going to do this today-- bright line boundary on no more R talk, no A talk, no AP talk, no fantasy D talk. I will use Alison's phrases and if necessary physically remove myself from the room. Not because I think those conversations are possibly detrimental to our R or because it is the DB rule to avoid R talks. Because after a week or so of support from this board, the talk with my friend on the weekend, my IC yesterday-- it is emotionally damaging to me to listen to that BS. My own emotional safety and security has taken a major hit and I need to start building it back up, not continuing to let it get beat down. I simply don't want to hear it and won't.

The other experiment I'm going to try over the next couple of days (tell me if you think this is a bad idea) is instead of inputing the best possible motive to everything he says or does... like I normally do... I'm going to imagine it comes from the worst motivation possible. So, the acts of service, the compliments (ugh, Pommy, I got another one last night when I got home-- that bathing suit looks really nice on you, eye roll), trying to get me to laugh, etc.-- just him trying to make sure he keeps the may option stable and open so he keeps the power seat. The R/AP talk-- simply unacceptable, trying to guilt/goad/box me into making the decision for him by kicking him out or browbeat me into agreeing to his ridiculous fantastical threesome, and even listening to that garbage is validating him in some way.

Hope this works. Wish me luck.
Posted By: unchien Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/25/20 11:21 PM
Originally Posted by may22
The other experiment I'm going to try over the next couple of days (tell me if you think this is a bad idea) is instead of inputing the best possible motive to everything he says or does... like I normally do... I'm going to imagine it comes from the worst motivation possible. So, the acts of service, the compliments (ugh, Pommy, I got another one last night when I got home-- that bathing suit looks really nice on you, eye roll), trying to get me to laugh, etc.-- just him trying to make sure he keeps the may option stable and open so he keeps the power seat. The R/AP talk-- simply unacceptable, trying to guilt/goad/box me into making the decision for him by kicking him out or browbeat me into agreeing to his ridiculous fantastical threesome, and even listening to that garbage is validating him in some way.

I like this idea a lot. One thing I did in my sitch was start thinking about all the possible reasons my W was doing a certain thing. Pretty quickly I concluded I could not mind-read her, so I was wasting my time.

The compliments, etc. are incredibly manipulative.

Your H is a WAH. Except rather than walking away like most WAS's, he wants to keep you around as part of his preposterous unrealistic fantasy. So he's complimenting you, doing acts of service, mashing your buttons (again), just enough to placate you so he can continue down this road.

He also knows he can accuse you of being controlling as a way to engage in R talks.

It is manipulative behavior pure and simple.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 06:04 AM
Hi May

You sound like you're in a good place. I went through a phase of openly challenging my H when he complimented me, bringing up the language his used in his abusive tantrums. 'No, you don't think I'm a good mum. You actually think I'm just like my own abusive father, that I've ruined our children to the point where you consider one of them 'emotionally retarded' and that I'm capable of putting nobody or nothing above myself.' It was probably petty and unnecessary, but on the other hand, it got it straight in my mind what and who I was dealing with and what they thought of me, or were willing to say and refuse to apologise for, even in calmer and apparently affectionate moments. Your husband might think you look good in a bathing suit (I bet you do!) but he also thinks you're being mean to him by not giving him a free pass on an open marriage. Good to always balance once fact with the other and draw your own conclusion.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 07:02 AM
I mean, I do look decent these days in a bathing suit wink Nothing like a year's worth of BDs to get rid of those last 15 lbs. I also spent some money on nice ones back in the fall which makes a difference too. Anyway, it is not moving me. It feels ridiculous. Not that he has ever said anything remotely negative about the way I look-- he's always been complimentary-- but it just feels like he is laying it on a bit thick.

He has been respectful, no trying to have any R talks the last 24 hours, just been kind and decent. Kind of annoying right as I decided to try to interpret his words as coming from a negative place, I haven't gotten much to work with. I missed a text from him last night wondering where I was with the kids and then he called a little after their bedtimes to see where we were (we were just leaving), he was nice and cool about it, just wondering what was up. I got home and he was laying in bed reading the Shirley Glass book. No words exchanged about it or anything. He volunteered to put the kids down so I could take a bath. (OK. It is just HARD to look at this as manipulation. The kids had made cookies and left the kitchen in a gigantic, crazy mess. like BAD. I went out with my good friend and our kids, had a blast, hung out for hours and hours with food and wine and chitchat, came home late to a spotless house, he gets the kids down so that I can take a bath, have a glass of wine, and go to sleep with zero bothering about R talks or anything. And it was honestly nice to have a tiny break from what is happening.)

But you guys!!! Today was my Botox appointment and I'd made sure earlier he could take the kids-- mentioned I had an appointment and didn't say what it was, he didn't ask. I got ready to leave and said hey, I'm leaving-- why-- I have an appointment-- oh right, what is it? I didn't respond. He asked again, dentist? I said no. He said, where are you going? Just tell me! I said it was no big deal but I didn't want to tell him. He kept pressing (nicely), is it safe? (yes) what if you get in a car accident on the way there? I need to know where you are! (if this wasn't Covid you would have no idea) Anyway, I kept saying look, it isn't a big deal, I just don't really feel comfortable telling you and maybe we can talk about it later. As I walk out the door he goes, I know. You're getting Botox, aren't you? UGH. This is something I wanted for a decade and we talked about off and on for awhile. I seriously considered it for my 40th BD but H was pretty against it and I decided it wasn't worth it. We probably haven't talked about it in TWO YEARS. This a-hole knows me SO WELL that he f-ing figures it out before I even walk out the door.

he called me in the car and asked why I didn't tell him. I explained minimally the situation-- been getting it for a year, since all this started because it was for me. I didn't feel like it was something I needed to tell him. I had been conflicted since February since we were in a different place and I felt like it was dishonest to do it without telling you, but also didn't really feel comfortable telling you. We got off the phone because a friend was trying to set up a zoom call for our daughters. he texted me Hey, you shouldn't have stopped getting it in February. I would have liked that you had done something for yourself, even if it isn't something I fully support. I responded, I wasn't planning on stopping.

So... still knows me really well. Good at pushing my GD buttons if that is what is going on. Will keep focusing on my boundaries and analyzing his behavior and words with my new filter.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 07:18 AM
He really really can't let you say no to him, can he? Even when the 'no' is about your own privacy around something minor and nothing to do with him.

And when he cleans his own house after his own kids have been doing something fun, and when he puts his own kids to bed, that isn't worthy of a medal. He's parenting to a usual basic standard. It's good that he is doing that rather than not, but it's STANDARD that you'd expect from a co-parent, not a sign that he's not any of the things you also know him to be.

Hang in there May. Looking hot in your swimming cossie!
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 07:34 AM
True.

God, my standards are low, aren’t they.

(And most of my friends would swoon for half of what H is doing. I feel like we have all been duped. Or at least I have.)
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 07:35 AM
No, your standards aren't low. I'm only suggesting that you look at this with very clear eyes. It is good he is a present and attentive father and is able to do his fair share around the house. That doesn't make a marriage. I think he wanted you to see him reading the book and it is very good you didn't remark on it.
Posted By: Pommy99 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 07:53 AM
May you’re doing brilliantly and seem to be a level above all is nonsense now. I’m totally eye rolling at the yoga pants and costume compliments!! I pulled H up on this at one point and he said something like just because I don’t find you sexually attractive doesn’t mean you don’t look good in your underwear!! A real back-handed compliment! The compliments were always dished out when I was distancing, when his Plan B was being destabilised by me.

Scout mentioned the trauma bonding and intermittent reinforcement. This is something I discussed at length with my IC. When I read up on it at home, it really hit a nerve and I started to understand the toxicity of the situation I was in and how I was being manipulated by H. IC had me draw a 15 month timeline of the rollercoaster, which really aligned to the pursuer-distancer exchanges, and the events leading up to each peak and trough. I found it really helpful and I think it was those discussions and seeing it visually that really helped me understand how badly I needed to get off his rollercoaster. We also talked about triangulation, which was another manipulative trait that I felt I was being played for.

Keep moving forward May, you deserve so much more. Well done on the Botox conversation! I’m eye rolling again at the “why didn’t you tell me?” In my head I would have been sarcastically apologising for not meeting his honesty and transparency standards !!
Posted By: unchien Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 12:05 PM
You should have told him you were going to a L consult =)
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 02:44 PM
I was veeeeeery tempted to dress nicely as I knew he would think that if so. Decided it felt manipulative to do so and refrained.
Posted By: unchien Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 05:10 PM
I think it's manipulative for him to keep dragging you into R talks.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 05:37 PM
Alison, I am glad I didn't remark on it. I definitely would have a week ago. (Not to say I didn't go check later and see how much he's read.)

And, by you mentioning that, I was able to reframe coming home to him reading the book with a super clean house from "he's trying" or "he isn't so bad" to him setting up a little purposeful tableau, aimed at getting me to think just that.

It is hard for me to get up in arms about him wanting to know where I was going. If it were the other way around and I wasn't explicitly trying to not give a $hit I would have done the same, probably a lot less nicely. I know he's weirded out that I did something without telling him. I think it is just another sign that our R is not the same as it was before, for both of us, that the A and his deceptions have changed something fundamentally between us. All in all, probably not a bad thing for him to understand.

I also ordered a Ring security camera, which we had talked about loosely a few weeks ago, before he reignited with AP. The usual way this kind of thing happens is that I do a ton of research, get his input, and we make the decision together. This was reframed after BD as I made all the decisions and he just went along with it, but I think he's over that fiction these days. In this case, I decided to just buy what I wanted, also because if he moves out, I really do want a security camera set up. It came yesterday. H looked at it and then me and knew all of that processing in my head. He looked sad. He said you didn't talk to me about this. I said, no. He said, I get it.

Pommy, thanks for checking in. I have been thinking more and more about intermittent reinforcing as a dynamic in our R since the BDs. I am also trying to figure out why I am still standing, how much of it is a perception of "winning" or not wanting this to be my story enough that I'm ignoring really important aspects of what is happening *now*. And, how much the pursuer-distancer dynamic is playing a part in this for me-- truth is, I didn't want him sexually or think about him all that much as a person until he no longer wanted me. Then it all came roaring back. is that just me wanting what I don't have? Someone took my toy away and I want it back? I know he thinks that is the case, that I can't truly be "in love" with him anymore, because I didn't demonstrate it for all those years and also because he isn't "in love" with me and it needs both of us for the feeling to truly exist.

On the Botox thing, he did say I know I don't have a leg to stand on BUT, I can't believe you didn't tell me. I was like, you're right. You don't have leg to stand on. I didn't feel comfortable telling you. (I should have just left it at he didn't have a leg to stand on... not sure why I felt the need to justify myself to him.)

So no talk of A, AP, or R at all yesterday, so that's a positive. He did let me know that he has a 1-1 call with our MC today, to which I said ok great. (we joked a little that MC would be like daaaaaaaang WTF?) but no actual discussion.

We did talk about other stuff last night after the kids went to bed, coronavirus and some recent career-related conversations I've had. i hadn't planned on sharing any of that with him, I know I shouldn't have. That no talking unless absolutely necessary boundary is just not a real boundary for me yet. I know to my bones I can enforce it once he leaves. It still just feels artificial right now. I guess I still need to stew in the "he is not someone I need in my life in any way" narrative a bit more.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by unchien
I think it's manipulative for him to keep dragging you into R talks.

Yes, absolutely. After my conversation with the IC my boundary on R talks feels very clear-- at least, boundary around the A, AP, or the fantasy future. Those are hard lines. And he actually hasn't tried for the last couple of days. I haven't told him my boundaries yet (explicitly-- the last couple of times the R came up at all, like in the conversation about his talk with his brother, I just put up my hand and said I don't want to talk about that and he said OK.) Trying to decide if I should state "these are my boundaries, please respect them" or just enforce them when they come up.

Your post about the manipulation was really helpful to me too. I think I need to keep just spotting this. It doesn't matter WHY he is doing any of this, but the fact that he's doing it is not okay. I'm particularly not okay with discussing the fantasy future D scenario. The last time we talked about it was maybe Saturday. I need to also be OK with the fact that if we go down this road, I don't need to give a $hit that he understands why I will make the choices I do. Just like he needs me to validate his decisions, I think I need him to not think I'm just being an unreasonable b**ch. I need to let that go too.
Posted By: Andy88 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by may22
Trying to decide if I should state "these are my boundaries, please respect them" or just enforce them when they come up.


You should just enforce when it comes up, no need to state it. Actions not words.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/26/20 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by May22
It is hard for me to get up in arms about him wanting to know where I was going.


This is literally cake eating. He still wants to be your H (i.e. wants to know where you're going / what you're doing) but he doesn't want you to be his W (i.e he wants his non-M life as well). My H was the same when he first left (and for a long time after). Recently my H stormed off when I had the audacity to ask him to message me before coming around 'unexpectedly'. This is one of those arguments which has reared its head repeatedly since he moved out. I don't think it's because its got anything to do with me and everything because "THIS IS HIS HOUSE" and he doesn't want some other man staying in it. Cake eating.

The thing is May, you need to just let him stew in it and carry on regardless. I know that sometimes it feels wrong to put yourself first, and believe me when I tell you, he will make you feel that you are selfish and you are the one pushing you further away from each other. He will try and pull you back with kindness, and when he discovers that doesn't work, he will make you feel like it's your actions that are contributing to him wanting to choose her. But it isn't about him. It is about you choosing you. Because if you fall for the niceness he will just go back to his old ways. If you cave to the accusations, then he will go back to his old ways. If he is really willing to change then you will see his own 180's coming to the fore and they will be consistent. If he doesn't change, then you've chosen you and the you you choose will be wrinkle free.

Regarding the 'you didn't have sex with me for years'. This is an excuse and a way of turning his affair into something that is somehow your fault. He should have communicated those feelings so they could be addressed. I can't remember who said it, but we are all responsible for the failures in our M. But it is the WAW who throws it away and (well, not in your case) sets fire to it. All i can say is you have to forgive yourself for this. But you only have to take responsibility for your part in it and understand what led you to no longer want to have sex with your H. You are not responsible for his affair (that is on him). I get it by the way. After D10 was born we probably went down to a couple of times per week for a couple of years. Exhaustion, feeling taken for granted as well as sex seeming like just another wifely duty takes its toll on your sex life and it it goes on for too long, it becomes habit.

Originally Posted by May22
And, how much the pursuer-distancer dynamic is playing a part in this for me-- truth is, I didn't want him sexually or think about him all that much as a person until he no longer wanted me. Then it all came roaring back. is that just me wanting what I don't have? Someone took my toy away and I want it back?


Can I be honest, it is probably a bit of this. It's also a bit of your confidence is shattered and (in your head) you already know what it is like to be rejected by your H (this is a familiar pain), then the possibility of opening yourself up to someone new and risk being rejected by them. Fear of the unknown. You know my story. A part of me would rather sit in limbo knowing that there is little to no chance of my H coming back then risk being hurt again by someone else.

May, you are doing amazing. Continue to do things for you and you only and don't let him make you feel bad for doing them. If you must, take an interest in his life (MC etc) but try not to get invested in it. It is your own healing and growth that is important and should be your focus. Detachment is hard. But you can do it.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/27/20 01:14 AM
Thanks, FS. Today is rough. I am thinking back to him telling me maybe Tuesday when I was still powered by anger, May, I know you. You'll be like this for three or four days and then you'll let go of that anger and look at things differently. You've surprised me every time in how you deal with this stuff in the end but the one thing I do know is that you *will* let this anger go. At the time, I cut my eyes at him and walked away. Later that day, he make a joke and against my better judgment I cracked a tiny smile. He said, I told my mom today all I want is to make May smile. And I just did it.

And I know know know that this is probably just his manipulating me. I get it. There is just such a gap right now for me between understanding it intellectually and feeling it in my bones.

Originally Posted by FlySolo
Because if you fall for the niceness he will just go back to his old ways.

Already happening. I only see this not happening if I get some actual space.

Originally Posted by FlySolo
If you cave to the accusations, then he will go back to his old ways.

question on this...I pretty much have forgiven myself for the SSM. I did the best I could with what I knew at the time. I have had some wrenches of real regret in this last go-round, where H said explicitly this never would have happened if I'd been sleeping with him, and we were more like once a month for years and when he met AP we hadn't had sex in several months. (He says six, which I dispute, but it is immaterial.) At that point he decided to stop asking. Two months later he saw AP again and they slept together. He said he went into it on that trip in the flirtation period and then they slept together and he was BANG in love with her and it was too late.

It wasn't for another couple of months that I initiated sex (also in a totally half-hearted like I really knew I needed to because it had been a scarily long time kind of way). And he said no. That he had been waiting for me to initiate and I never did. That he finally realized I didn't want him sexually and I had broken him sexually. (not really, since he was steaming it up with AP, but again, I didn't know that at the time.) And it wasn't until a full year after that that i had my "awakening" during this long weekend where H walked away thinking we were going to get Ded and I rediscovered my love and passion for him. (<-- very much sounds like I realized my toy was missing and wanted it back, doesn't it?)

Anyway, when this comes up, I mostly try to validate. I have also more recently said I didn't feel like he cared to understand what was happening for me around that time, that the SSM was his "reason" for cheating but the factors that led to the SSM for me were "excuses." He listened to this, said no, he did want to understand, but that it just hurt him so badly, he didn't think I really got it, etc etc.

So in this case, would you say validating is caving? Should I just say I'm not interested in talking about that at this point? I mean, there really isn't much of a point from my view unless he was recommitting to the M. And that feels far off at the moment, plus I'm actively trying to stamp on those stupid thoughts.

He knows where I stand, I am sorry, I am not that person anymore. Which he does know-- he said he told his IC that the sex we've been having for the past four months is "not his wife" who only wanted missionary and as quick as possible but I also think there are other feelings in there, of anger still for the SSM and "oh now you want this when it is too late" and also the feelings that never went away for the AP. As I write this I'm convincing myself that there is no good reason to have any sort of talk about the SSM anymore. He knows where I stand, I know where he stands. More talk is not helpful. (Right?)

Originally Posted by FlySolo
The thing is May, you need to just let him stew in it and carry on regardless.

This, I think I can do. Hold my (current) boundaries. Let him stew. Do my thing. Keep pondering these big questions. Maybe I just need a bit more time to grieve what I thought I had. Maybe the best I can do today is to hold the line on the A/R/Fantasy D talks. Keep focusing on my plans for a future without him and keep working on letting go of the fear. Maybe I can't be cold hard NC today, but maybe I can get there.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/27/20 02:36 AM
It’s all irrelevant now.

The thing about people who step outside the marriage because their needs weren’t being met is that they had ethical options. Counselling, separation, divorce. There will always be excuses for why they simply couldn’t make a clean break - children, finances etc - but the reality is they chose the option which minimised responsibility and maximised blame.

You don’t have to be ‘in love’ with someone to refrain from destroying their life. ‘I love you but I’m not in love with you’ has no place in discussions of infidelity. If for whatever reason they love you and still want to leave you, they would do so in a way that did not hurt you. With honesty, with integrity, with regret, with sadness, with respect. With a fair settlement and custody arrangement in acknowledgement and reparation for reneging on their sacred commitment.

Anything less is not love.

If you stop being ‘in love’ with me, stop being ‘in marriage’ with me. And also ‘in house’ with me, and ‘in bank account’ with me, while you’re at it. Don’t wallow in self-pity and make me be the one to make these decisions. Don’t add insult to injury. Don’t take advantage of my shock and grief to stick the knife in with blame. Own your sh!t and leave.

I encourage you to keep thinking about taking space from your H.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/27/20 06:20 AM
Quote
He said, I told my mom today all I want is to make May smile. And I just did it.


This is one of the most $%^(-ed up things I've read from him, May. The manipulation, the arrogance. I am SURE in his mind he is cajoling poor little May nicely out of her funk so she will be nice to him and there will be peace in the house.

What is actually happening is that he's been cheating and lying to you, you are reacting in a calm, dignified way and have clearly asked for alone time to process your feelings about the fact that you don't want an open marriage and he is forcing you to have one and expecting you to be happy about it.

And he can't even let you have that - your utterly normal, reasonable and respectfully expressed feelings about it. Now if you were running around the house screaming, setting his pubic hair on fire and throwing his stuff into a lake it would be wrong. Understandable, but wrong. But you're simply asking for space, privacy and for him to stop 'working you' like you are a vending machine full of goodies. You're not telling him what he can and can't do otherwise. And he can't even give you that.

This is horrible, May. If you aren't able to keep your resolve with him working at you like this (and I understand it) then he or you need to go.

And I don't mean 'keep your resolve' as in 'decide to leave him' - I mean keep your resolve of taking all the space you need, seeing things absolutely clearly for as long as you need, and making a decision. If you make a decision to stay with him and turn a blind eye to him continuing to cheat on you, and even, for the sake of peace, pretend you believe his lying until you get your consulting business up off the ground, well, that would be one of your choices. But YOU get to make it without this interference.

I find it quite sinister and controlling that he can't let you have that, given the severity of what he has done.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/27/20 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by May22
I have had some wrenches of real regret in this last go-round, where H said explicitly this never would have happened if I'd been sleeping with him ... It wasn't for another couple of months that I initiated sex (also in a totally half-hearted like I really knew I needed to because it had been a scarily long time kind of way)


I think you need to work through this with your IC. Not your H reactions to the lack of intimacy (those belong to him), but why YOU stopped engaging/taking interest in sex. This conversation needs to be about you. What your "H" calls excuses are your truth. Until you understand that truth, you will end up in the same place (maybe with your H, maybe with some other man) once the sparkle/novelty wears off (i.e. sex as duty).

Oh, on an earlier question of why you 'rediscovered your love and passion for him" - sex is one form of validation of our worth and our attractiveness.

It's not just the physical gratification you're missing, it's those memories of what comes with the physical gratification, the anticipation, the after glow and feeling of being secure, those words shared in the heat and aftermath of passion. This is your brain remembering the good parts and forgetting, that actually sex had (prob) become routine - five minutes in the missionary and then falling asleep - which is probably why you stopped being interested in it in the first place.

Originally Posted by May
Anyway, when this comes up, I mostly try to validate.


I remember a quote from Kate Moss. At the time she didn't talk to the media which helped keep an air of mystery about her. "Don't explain, don't complain". Validation doesn't mean explaining yourself. I use to find myself being blamed for something (something going missing, the rubbish not taken out to be collected) and feeling forced to explain/defend myself. "It couldn't have been me that moved it, I've been out all day", or "I was late home and exhausted and it slipped my mind" blah blah blah. But May, he didn't care what my excuse/explanation was because he had already made up his mind that it was my fault. He just wanted to have a moan at me and make me feel small. Now, when he says something to me pointing out I've forgotten/miss-placed something I simply say "OK". So when he brings it up simply say "You've explained how that made you feel and I'm sorry for that. I do think the subject has been exhausted".

May, I am not sure what the laws are where you live, but here you cannot make him leave if he does not want to go unless there is domestic (and I assume this means physical) violence involved.Those movie scenes of clothes angrily shoved in black bin bags and left on the front driveway to be discovered by the cheating spouse aren't a reflection of most of our situations, well not, if those cheating spouses are sensible enough to go seek legal advice.

The only thing you can do is request the emotional space to process (which you've done) and if he does not respect that request, make clear through your actions you will have that space anyway. Right now you share a home. He is a flatmate. Try and think of him as one - you don't pry into each other's lives and you don't overshare. If he tries to engage in relationship talk, cut it off and say "I don't think it's appropriate that you discuss this with me". Pleasantries and elevator conversations is where you are at at the moment. You can build on this later.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/27/20 06:49 PM
Hi FS,

I've spent a lot of time thinking and reading about sex and desire. Emily Nagowski has been especially helpful in this for me, and Esther Perel too. I definitely want to work through it with my IC now, but essentially I think my identity as a mom completely took over my identity as a woman. All the formerly sexual parts of my body were utilitarian. When my daughters were born they gave me a mirror and that was all I could picture when my H would look at that part of my body. My breasts were milk bags and I was terrified I would leak milk. The idea of sex felt gross. I didn't feel sexy or desirable in any way. I had a pretty intense executive job and all day long, people WANTED something from me. At work, at home. I was overloaded by touching with the children-- it not only fulfilled any contact need I had (and I don't have a lot) but overwhelmed me such that at the end of the day I wanted nothing more than for no one to touch me and no one to ask me anything.

There were also dynamics between H and me, times when I felt he was being selfish, or rude. I'd go to bed without it being resolved and he'd pop up a half hour later and try to initiate sex. It would infuriate me. I felt like he had an itch and sex would scratch it, not that he was in love with me and needed me to be physically intimate with him. He never said those things to me. I've read a lot about men needing sex to connect and women needing to feel connected before wanting sex, and I think this was a definite dynamic in our R. I got to a point where any touching-- backrub, arm around the shoulder, hug, kiss, leg brushing up against another-- scared me because I was afraid it would lead to H wanting sex, so I avoided all physical contact.

The only times we would talk about it would be in bed, when I'd refuse sex and H would get angry, I'd get defensive, and would shut down. He would get really upset and emotional but I don't really think I tried to understand where he was coming from or what it was like for him. I retreated into feeling defensive and nagged and misunderstood. He never raised the issue outside of that context, or let me know how much it impacted him emotionally. We probably had sex once or twice a month after D8 was born, unless we went on vacation without the kids, which happened a handful of times and during which I could always relax and we would reconnect romantically, have sex, etc. Probably half the times we had sex after H asking was boring missionary (because that was all I would agree to, and I stared at the ceiling and waited for it to be over. The other half of the times I would get into it, H would look me in the eyes and say... see? Isn't this great? And I would feel it for those moments, but it never carried over into the next time he asked.

I talked to two doctors, who both said it was normal. Many women don't want sex after kids, you're busy, it will come back. I read online articles that said "make it a priority" and "fake it til you make it-- once you start you'll eventually start wanting to again." I couldn't make myself do this. I couldn't explain to H or myself what was going on because I didn't really understand it. The most I might have said is that I didn't feel sexy, and he would say but I think you're sexy, which I didn't really believe, and he didn't spend a lot of time or energy trying to convince me in a way I understood. I think he felt that saying that and showing me he wanted me by initiating sex was telling me. I needed something more, or different-- mostly, I needed to see MYSELF as a sexual being again.

The other dynamic for me, I think, is that in all of this I stopped seeing H as a human being and started seeing him more just as what he represented-- father, husband, sometimes PITA. He was another person I had to manage. Things he cared about a lot that I thought were kind of stupid, like watching professional sports, were tolerated but I always felt he was being selfish. One time, he wanted to fly to visit his brother and go to a football game, there were many reasons why it was so special that I can't really remember. Our eldest daughter was maybe one. I was overwhelmed with work and parenting and not enough sleep and was outraged he would consider this trip-- spending money just on himself, taking time away from me and the baby. That I was going to have to deal with it all by myself for no reason other than H wanting something for himself. We got into a huge fight about it and finally I told him, I'm not going to tell you no. You need to decide this one on your own. He made this huge list of pros and cons and deliberated over it for days. He ended up deciding to go. I was livid and felt betrayed and in fact I can trace a lot of my anger and disengagement with him back to this point, when I felt he chose himself over me and the kids. After that, if he'd ask "can I go to X" I would just say no, because I felt like I had given him a chance to make what was in my head the right choice and he didn't do it, so I would just say no. Sometimes we'd fight about it and he'd end up doing it anyway.

Now, I look back at that and I cringe. Pretty terrible behavior on my part. And, throughout all this time and H has consistently advocated for me to do things for myself. To spend time with my friends, to get a massage, to go on a girls weekend, to do things for myself that made me happy. He constantly pushed me here. And I never really felt comfortable spending a lot of money or time on myself. I felt guilty about it and would rarely do it. The only reason I have gotten back into yoga over the past 1.5 years is because H bought me a gift certificate for a large number of classes at a pretty pricey studio near our house. He had tried a bunch of places and felt this one was the best, but I was annoyed at him for spending so much $ on each yoga class and would never try it myself. He got a good Black Friday deal (he knows I like deals) on a gift card and gave it to me for Christmas and every day encouraged me to go. This is also something that DB has helped quite a bit for me, getting comfortable with GALing and doing things just for me.

That Christmas (2018) marked the first year of his A, during which I had no clue. In November or so he had broken it off with AP and they didn't start talking again until January. The other present H bought me that year was a long weekend at my favorite hotel, an ultra-romantic spot where we'd spent an amazing long weekend before kids. He arranged for us to go in February, when his parents would be here visiting and could watch the kids. Now I can see this as in his mind "trying", but then of course AP got back in the picture in January (she had a loss in her life and had no-one else to talk to but H, so called him and off it went).

That trip then, which we almost didn't go on because we were at the end stages of MC at that point and fighting like crazy and H was refusing to commit to a shared goal of a stronger M. Now thinking back, I think that last MC session was the first time he said something along the lines of maybe we shouldn't be married anymore. We spent the whole weekend having these very intense talks, crying, him finally telling me how hard the SSM had been on him, me somehow SEEING him for the first time in a long, long time, and the hardened clay that had dried around my heart and my feelings for him shattered. We slept together and I felt sexy for the first time in forever.

Typing all this (sorry guys, it is helpful for me to get it down on paper) I definitely see how my interest was probably sparked by the fear of loss that weekend. And this is my truth for what was going on with me. I'm not proud of my behavior or how I handled any of this. My perspective has totally shifted on all of this, from being able to view myself once again as a sexual being to not just tolerating but advocating for each of us to do things just for ourselves. Also, Alison once shared her perspective as the HD partner, and maybe it helps someone to get the perspective of the LD partner.

It was a couple of months after that weekend that H told me ILYB and that he was seriously contemplating D. I freaked out (again, in retrospect, wasn't as much of a bomb as I took it... I think I hadn't really been listening to what he was saying in MC, just fighting with him in front of her over him being a jerk and not agreeing with me to have a shared goal of strengthening our M). He went on a business trip (mm-hmm) I got a little space and read DR and Gottman and started implementing DB strategies when he got home-- 180s, GALing, avoiding R talks. On the Gottman front, recognizing and turning towards bids from him. And the relationship between the two of us improved dramatically. Yet another benefit of DBing-- no matter what happens, I've learned a lot about myself and how my actions can influence an R, both in positive and negative ways.

A long post. FS, I can't kick him out of the house in my state unless domestic abuse is an issue. Attorney agrees. I could potentially file a motion to request it but it starts to get in the thousands of dollars to pull that trigger and the likelihood is it would get denied. Scout, I really like that part about love, what it is and what it isn't. And, he simply can't own his [censored] right now. So I need to decide if I'm going to do the one thing I have said this entire time I wouldn't do--take the decision into my own hands and leave first-- or not. Alison, I do need to keep focusing on holding space for myself to think and listen to myself. I will say that it has generally been better and he's been respectful of my boundaries the last couple of days. We did talk some last night about our R, but I initiated, he didn't, and we didn't cross into the areas that I've explicitly said I don't want to venture.

He's off surfing now. Hopefully I can get him to take the kids on a hike again once he gets home so I can get some real space. I need to transcribe my notes from the attorney and she (and my exec coach also) recommended downloading the divorce packet from the State's website and to start going through it.

Thanks, everyone.
Posted By: wooba Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/28/20 01:32 PM
may, I've been reading your posts and I feel like you're getting there. to the point where you can really see through your H's bs and manipulation and achieve clarity for yourself. I understand how hard it all is and you have had the gift of being able to see things from a very positive angle. Sometime it is good, sometimes it could deceive you. Anyway, other posters have all given great advice, I just want to tell you that you're a smart, brave woman and you deserve nothing less than what you seek in a partner.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 04:03 AM
Thanks, Wooba. I am not feeling that right now... maybe I am being who I want to be when I type things out here and then in real life am just weaker and more afraid.

Backslid with R talks this weekend, though he generally respected my boundaries around not talking about AP or the fantasy D scenario. My problem was I was unable to stick to my "I don't want to discuss this" lines. In several talks this weekend, I have continued to maintain that I think it is not in the best interest of the children to D and as parents I feel strongly that we should give our R our best shot, for them, before pulling that gigantic trigger. That walking out the door is a bright line for me and not something I can forgive him for. And that I refuse to discuss any future options that include me being OK with AP in the picture in any way, shape, or form.

I have explicitly said over and over that this is his decision and I'm not going to make it for him. But that I'm not stopping him. He is free to go. (Steve, if you're reading, he said again this afternoon OK, I want to MO. He was looking at places and found one nearby that isn't so bad. I said OK, is that your decision? he said yes. I said ok when shall we tell the children? He said let's do it now. I said OK. We stared at each other for a minute or so without moving and then he blinked first. He said I don't WANT to move out. I don't WANT to live somewhere else. I don't WANT to get a divorce. I just want those things PLUS feel the way AP makes me feel. I said, this is your decision.)

He told me he spoke to her this morning and she is removing all pressure on him for a timetable. She was pushing that she was moving on unless he had a real plan to split with me because of fear of getting hurt again and has "realized" that she is already too deep again and will get hurt no matter what. So she is removing pressure from him for a plan, she doesn't want her fear to get in his way. (UGH.) He feels that he has made a commitment to her as he has told her he wants to spend his life with her so leaving her is breaking that commitment, breaking her heart, consigning her to a sad and lonely life without him. (double UGH.) He wants to be with her but is scared of the repercussions of leaving me. He really wants one of us to make the decision for him. Sounds like she isn't going to be the one. And I'm still unwilling to give him that gift.

Here's the thing. Even though I've said repeatedly he is free to go, this is his decision, he doesn't feel that he is free to go because he thinks I'll be vindictive about the children and will not make decisions in their best interests once we split (because to him remaining friends and spending time together is a critical part of their future well-being). That he thinks I'll vilify her or him to them. (Of course he bounces back and forth between that and not believing me, thinking that I'll of course end up being nice and happy for the sake of the children.) He says he WANTS to go. He WANTS to be with her. He doesn't see how he can get her out of his system without trying to be with her first. if he stayed he'd be resentful and would never, ever fall out of love with her. He's still mad at me about the SSM and doesn't know if he can forgive me for that. He could imagine best case scenario being friends and having fun and all the stuff we were doing in lockdown, but can never imagine having a fulfilling "in love" MR with me again. That he has fallen out of love with me and thinks there is too much between us including what he has done with the A to ever really reconnect. That he is afraid that we try and still end up Ded a few years down the line and then he has lost his chance with AP forever. But he can't make that decision without knowing that the kids will be OK and he doesn't believe that they will unless I am Happy McDivorcee.

If I take all this at face value... which I'm trying to (though my traitorous heart keeps saying that once he gets her out of his system, he's the kind of person who always post-hoc decides whatever happens was the best thing that could possibly have ever happened, so he *will* work on the MR with me and we have actually a very good chance of M2.0 if we work at it together)... there is truly no point to staying with him. He has proven himself to be a weak, lying, cheater. Unable to stick to NC for four months with AP, insisting on doing everything his own way. I don't want that. I don't want a life with someone who always holds a candle for his long-lost mistress and never really falls back in love with me. With someone who would resent me for representing him giving up all that he could have had if only I'd have 'let' him. And this all assumes we don't end up back in the same place in another four months. I deserve a full R with a loving, equal partner, and he's not exactly a good bet right now.

So here's my question. Do I sit down with him and go over what a post-S relationship would look like? I downloaded all the D worksheets and have what I feel is a fair financial and child physical custody split to propose to him. (At least a good negotiation starting point.) I think he'd be OK with it in general, though there are a few things he won't like (not getting to take the children on multi-week vacations, for instance, which he considers to be a "threat" since this is something he wants so much. Whereas I have only considered this past year letting him take the kids on a vacation without me for 2 weeks maximum only because I gave a $hit what he wanted as my H. Once I no longer have to take his feelings into consideration, that goes out the window.) I have done budgets for us each separately with S and D scenarios both, and one with me trying the consulting route and less income at first. (yes, I know that doing his budget for him is controlling/whatever. But I don't need to show him that one.

If we don't actually get divorced right away, I would propose to write up a post-nup agreement that would outline what we're agreeing to now. We can split our savings and get separate accounts and treat our finances separately, which I think we should be able to write into the post-nup and keep our own $$s. I have a proposal for financial support based on our state's I actually think I am better off financially if we stay married on paper, at least for awhile while I work on my consulting business, if I decide to go that route. And I also think I have the most leverage right now that I'll ever have. But even with all of that, I still can't bring myself to be the one to tell him I want to S or D.

Or, do I sit tight and let him stew and make his own decision? I feel like that is the better answer, assuming I want to hold onto the position of making him be the one to do it. I wrote out this afternoon what I would propose we say to the children, together. For whatever reason, as I went through that, it is still important to me to be able to say that Daddy is doing this, not Mommy. I know I can work on this part as it is not my fault we are in the situation we are in... it is his. But I'm not there yet.
Posted By: wooba Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by may22

He told me he spoke to her this morning and she is removing all pressure on him for a timetable. She was pushing that she was moving on unless.........He really wants one of us to make the decision for him. Sounds like she isn't going to be the one. And I'm still unwilling to give him that gift.

Why were you listening to this? walk away when he starts talking about OW!

Originally Posted by may22

Here's the thing. Even though I've said repeatedly he is free to go, this is his decision, he doesn't feel that he is free to go because he thinks I'll be vindictive about the children and will not make decisions in their best interests once we split.... But he can't make that decision without knowing that the kids will be OK and he doesn't believe that they will unless I am Happy McDivorcee.

This is still all focused on him. What HE thinks...how HE feels......don't go there. He is responsible for his own feelings and actions. You hold on to what YOU think is okay for YOU. how YOU are feeling.

Originally Posted by may22

He has proven himself to be a weak, lying, cheater. Unable to stick to NC for four months with AP, insisting on doing everything his own way. I don't want that. I don't want a life with someone who always holds a candle for his long-lost mistress and never really falls back in love with me. With someone who would resent me for representing him giving up all that he could have had if only I'd have 'let' him. And this all assumes we don't end up back in the same place in another four months. I deserve a full R with a loving, equal partner, and he's not exactly a good bet right now.


more of this. looking at his actions and not what he possibly could be thinking or feeling behind his actions. You know you deserve better. And he just isn't that right now.

Originally Posted by may22

So here's my question. Do I sit down with him and go over what a post-S relationship would look like?

Or, do I sit tight and let him stew and make his own decision? I feel like that is the better answer, assuming I want to hold onto the position of making him be the one to do it. I wrote out this afternoon what I would propose we say to the children, together. For whatever reason, as I went through that, it is still important to me to be able to say that Daddy is doing this, not Mommy. I know I can work on this part as it is not my fault we are in the situation we are in... it is his. But I'm not there yet.


You control your own behavior, therefore just like you cannot force him to move out, you cannot expect him to agree to tell your children together about D. You don't need to sit down and paint a picture of post-s relationship for him. You don't need to spell it out for him. You've said explicitly to him that his fantasy is not going to be the reality. yet he still wants it. The more you try to "make him understand" the more it seems like you are unable to leave him.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 07:08 AM
Hi May

it might help if you try to identify what you are getting out of these R talks. You don't want to have them, but you keep having them - so there must be something in that interaction, unpleasant though it is, that you want - otherwise you'd find it easier to avoid them

From the way you describe this, it sounds like a power struggle - your H desperately trying to get something from you (approval, a decision, attention, the thrill of an argument, the satisfaction of your distress, the sense he's being fought over by two woman, the reassurance he still has his plan B and a decision to make - I don't know - but he's getting SOMETHING out of it) and you are also trying to get something from him - the answer you want, an admission from him he's being unreasonable, contrition, something else?

I find the way you describe these interactions absolutely astonishing - the garbage you listen to and that your H feels comfortable coming out with - and I can't imagine what is in it for you. But if you can sit and figure that out, you might be one step closer to dropping this rope and concentrating on yourself and your own problem rather than his.

Don't sit with him and go through what a divorce or separation would look like. You don't have total control over that, and if it comes down to it, your lawyers will sort that out. Why on earth would you do that wife work for him?

He's very clear about what he wants - cake-eating and an open marriage - and you're very clear what you want - a closed marriage with a faithful husband committing to you of his own free will. Neither of you are able to offer the other what they want, and neither of you are willing to accept that - so you keep working and working on each other and it isn't going to work and it's sheer madness. I suspect this won't end until whatever payoff you're getting from the status quo is outweighed by the pain it is causing you.

My H used to say he wasn't moving out because he feared how awful I'd be to the kids without him there. It was sheer manipulation - he wanted me to 'prove' I wasn't an angry / mean / messed up person in order to get his approval. I suspect your H is doing some version of the same. Who cares what a lying manipulative cheater imagines about some possible future scenario?
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 07:50 AM
Wooba nailed it.

Protect yourself and your kids and stop worrying about him. Why on earth would you do a post-D budget for him?!

1. Out of guilt?
2. So he gives you permission to D?
3. To reassure him?

D isn’t a team sport. That doesn’t mean you make him your enemy. It just means you do what’s best for you rather than the family. There is no family any more. There’s you and the kids, and him and the kids.

You obviously aren’t ready to D. You told him as much. That’s totally okay. You don’t have to D now or ever.

But I just don’t see you getting anywhere with these talks. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. He says his lines, you say yours, and the stalemate continues. That’s how it looks from the outside. I’m here shaking my head reading the same convo over and over.

If you’ve got YOUR budget figured out and you can swing it - why not look for your own place? A separate living situation is a long way from a legal D. It leaves the door open for R if that’s what you want. Lots of people do temporary separations. The kids will be okay. You can make it exciting for them. They WILL be okay, I promise.

Honestly, the best decision is neither of your options. It’s to say “I’m moving out”. I also believe this is your one and only chance at reconciliation. Moving out doesn’t mean D or even S. You will need to have that talk about finances and custody, but there’s no point unless you’ve made the decision to leave, IMHO.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 07:52 AM
Wooba, I am totally unable to walk out. It has much less to do with him and mostly to do with my children and how I view myself as a mother. I can't really explain it except I'm just not there right now. It leaves me feeling so powerless.

i have been working and working at trying to examine and release my own fears about S/D. I feel I have made a good amount of progress here, actually. I asked one question today about a financial thing that would be a big ask on my end, and at first he was like what? and when I explained how I saw it he said he thought that was fair. If we could work that out it would make an enormous difference to me financially. I don't know that he'll stick by that when he sees what child support payments will look like on top of all this... plus I'm sure if he wasn't trying to be nice to me he would be asking for more of a split of time (also reduces child support) which would make it even less likely that I could afford the mortgage on this house by myself... but at least for now it does help me feel more secure.

Yesterday I barely ate anything all day, fell asleep early, then woke up to a nightmare at 2 am and was awake the rest of the night. I did better at eating today and hope if I can get a good night's sleep I'll do better tomorrow. This morning, though, was the first time I told myself I knew the girls and I would be fine no matter what happened and actually believed it. It wavers during the day, when we talk and interact, when I see him hugging the children, cooking food, just doing the regular things that people do. Wooba, I read on your thread about being lonely, missing coming home to your best friend to talk to and share the day with. This is probably the main thing I'm scared of losing right now, because all the other parts of a good H are not really there. But if one could wave a magic wand and erase the A and the lies and all the things he's said to me in the context of this, outside of that context he isn't the angry alien so many others have. He is still H. That makes it harder, I think.

Alison, I don't know why I listen to this. Maybe part of me thinks that I'll hear that last horrible thing and finally crack my resolve and can ask him to leave and mean it. I think you are right in that it is a total power struggle. H wanting me to give him the green light and tell him it is all going to be OK. Me still wanting him to change his mind, I think, as much as I pretend that isn't the case. I do still hold out hope that he'll say you know, I can't do this, I am going to stay and break it off with her. Even though my rational mind knows the chances of that working at this point are very small. He said today (again) what if this was an addiction, wouldn't you help me through it? What if this was just a relapse? Which is of course what I want to hear. I'm trying not to respond though. He keeps changing his mind. Today he took the kids for a hike and when he came home he hugged me. Said when he was hiking he made up his mind to stay. But then he isn't sure again. At least now I am doing better at just not responding to this.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
I suspect this won't end until whatever payoff you're getting from the status quo is outweighed by the pain it is causing you.

I think you are right. Sadly. I like your suggestion of examining what I'm getting out of this, though, to push me towards dropping the rope.

I also think that the other thing I'm really dreading is him having a full-on R with the AP. That fills me with white-hot rage. I don't know why it affects me so much more to think of that than to hear him say how he feels about her. The idea of her being in his life, my kids' lives, seeing her at soccer games and school performances... I want to vomit and set things on fire. It is not healthy. So I think I'm also desperately trying to avoid that reality. Her being long distance has made it all not seem quite as real, either, so the idea of her actually being in our lives in the flesh is horrible. H says he thinks I just want him to not be with her and so am asking to work on the MR even though I don't really want to be with him either so that she moves on and he misses out on his chance to be with her. There may be some truth to that, IDK. I feel like I could deal with this all so much better if there wasn't this 11-year-younger, same mixed ethnicity as me AP who just looooooves my GD H oh so much that she can't live without him. It makes me feel like a crazy person to think about them together in the future. (Any thoughts on this one?)

I got a book on talking to kids about D and started reading it tonight. I am really trying to immerse myself in the reality and release these fears.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 08:04 AM
Quote
he isn't the angry alien so many others have


Because you are generous beyond measure, compliant, and refuse to impose consequences.

Remember how he turned nasty and threatened to fight you for the house.

I mean this with love. You have a beautifully kind heart. He’s draining you dry.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 08:22 AM
May

First I wanted to respond to the SSM. I think you have given it enough mental space. It happened. You have taken responsibility and you understand your motivations. But no amount of thinking is going to make him understand your motivations. He has to want to forgive you but he can't do that because doing that so would lay bare his own faults. Stop feeding him and stop torturing yourself.

The other thing I would suggest is to stop thinking about the future. Right now all you need to do is get on with today. What is May doing today which is just for May. Do something that makes today special, not grand spectacular special, just special. Go for a run or call a friend and see about meeting in the park and going for a long walk, find a new recipe and bake a cake/special dinner with the kids.

Everything else can wait.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 08:27 AM
He isn't an angry alien because you haven't consistently said no to him. My H is only a sulky, ranty, unattractive baby when he isn't getting what he wants, which is my compliance. I am capable of compromise and compassion, but not at the expense of my self respect. When I stand my ground, he turns into the type of angry alien you're talking about. Now your H may be different, but how will you ever know?

The one thing I've learned over the past year or so is that love means accepting someone's no - and being loved means experiencing someone accepting yours. It's the fundamental truth of boundaries.

Say no, calmly and consistently, and see what happens. No to R talks, no to nursing him through whatever he feels like calling his cheating, no to proving you're not all the things he claims he is worried you are, no to accepting the fall out from his infidelity, no to taking the blame for his actions and no to keeping his filthy little affair a secret.

He'll either start treating you with respect or you will find it extremely easy to divorce him.
Posted By: BluWave Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 07:47 PM
May,

How do you stop thinking of him and OW together because it fills you with white hot rage you ask? YOU DO THINK ABOUT IT! I want you to think about it! I want you to be angry as h-ll about this! Heck, I am angry about it and Ive never even met him! May, this man has been jerking you around for soooo long -- jerking you all over the place and torturing you -- please, get angry! Because it is real and it is really happening and you could put a planet between them and it would still be real. The love he feels for her is all you need to know. It doesn't matter how close you think he is to you because he lives at home and plays house, or how far away she is, how often they talk, text, engage in phone s-x or s-x in real life, or any tangible detail. All those details don't matter. What matters is that he is thinking of her, he is wanting her, and therefore he is WITH her. She is the one. I am sorry that hurts, but that is the truth and it has been the truth for many years. In his mind and in his heart this is his truth and that is really all that matters. She is the one.

May, I feel like we are friends even tho I don't know you. And not just because we are in the scorned wives club. I have read so many of your words. You are intelligent, open-minded and forgiving. Part of the problem with that is you are spending a tremendous amount of time trying to understand something that is not to be understood. You do this here on the boards and you do this with him any time you engage in conversation with him. All of this is having the opposite effect and is keeping you more attached to him. Remember the DB basics? They are counter intuitive. You let them go to get them back. You only focus on yourself without them. It is that simple. You have never done that. You have put an infinite amount of energy into understanding this, into him/his process and then you explain/rationalize/justify. And round and round you spin.

I think you really need to keep it simple. You are not together, he is with her and so now you focus on you. The only energy worth expending is on yourself and your Rs with your kids. He and only he f-d up your M and family and that is for him to own. On his own. Everytime you engage in convo with him you take ownership and absolve him of some. It hurts. It is terrrble. And you should be angry! Once you allow some anger in, I think you can begin to face your reality. It wont be easy to move on as single mom and head of household, but you can do it. You will rock at it! Whatever choices he makes with himself and the kids is his to own now. I would not even worry about that now. ... It is time to let him go and move forward. There is a beautiful life ahead once you make this leap!

Blu
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 10:22 PM
Scout, I missed this post yesterday.

Originally Posted by scout12
Why on earth would you do a post-D budget for him?!

1. Out of guilt?
2. So he gives you permission to D?
3. To reassure him?

I mostly did it to reassure myself that I wasn't asking for anything unfair. I think if we were going to do a usual D here, the default would be we split the kids 50-50 and I would get no child support since we make basically the same amount of money. In that case I couldn't afford the mortgage on this house on my own, even if I could borrow the money to buy him out. His income is more variable than mine so I had been worried back in Dec/Jan that if we split and had 50-50 physical custody, I would actually have to pay HIM because he had a bad year last year if we were using our 2019 tax returns as the standard. (That idea does enrage me and I think I would keep dragging this out out of pettiness for that reason alone... but the attorney said what matters is current monthly income, not last year's tax returns.) He is doing way better this year with solid clients and so is now making more than me, so he would be just fine and able to save more than I could if he gets an apartment even with the financial arrangement I'm proposing. I guess I just wanted to know I wasn't being unreasonable. It wasn't hard to do since we have (he actually made) a very detailed family budget, so easy to split in half and work in the differences that D would make once I did it for myself.

I guess I would possibly show it to him just to demonstrate that I would be fine on my own. He so wants D to be a team sport-- I like how you put that. He wants me to be OK with this and plan out the next evolution of our R together. I guess that is a big thing I'm fighting against right now, in that I don't want that. Though I'm also pulled by the idea that if this is happening anyway, is this a way to ensure I get the best deal possible for myself and my kids? But that isn't where or who I am, at least not at this moment. I think I need to sit with it more. I at least feel good that I did the budget and mapped it all out, so that is no longer a fear of uncertainty (though of course there are multiple levels of uncertainty in there given that I can only control one half of this equation).

Originally Posted by scout12
But I just don’t see you getting anywhere with these talks. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting different results. He says his lines, you say yours, and the stalemate continues. That’s how it looks from the outside. I’m here shaking my head reading the same convo over and over.

YES. True. I think about it sometimes when I'm typing it all out and shake my head at myself too. It is a weird compulsion and totally not DBing.

Originally Posted by scout12
If you’ve got YOUR budget figured out and you can swing it - why not look for your own place? A separate living situation is a long way from a legal D. It leaves the door open for R if that’s what you want. Lots of people do temporary separations. The kids will be okay. You can make it exciting for them. They WILL be okay, I promise.

Honestly, the best decision is neither of your options. It’s to say “I’m moving out”. I also believe this is your one and only chance at reconciliation. Moving out doesn’t mean D or even S. You will need to have that talk about finances and custody, but there’s no point unless you’ve made the decision to leave, IMHO.

The attorney strongly recommended against me moving out both for the house and child custody reasons and I really, really don't want to do it. He is considering MO himself now which is better than him moving to the basement in my opinion.

On the fighting for the house thing-- it is a 100% empty threat and I'm not worried about it at all. It came up again at some point over the weekend. I looked him in the eye just like you suggested and said ok. Do it. He backed down immediately (haha and then shifted into the self-pity mode). If I think about it in the narcissist self-pity/charm/rage channels, like Blu wrote on Alison's thread, my H is absolutely self pity-charm-self pity. And the funny thing is that anger used to be his go-to. Now it doesn't work with me at all. In fact it steels and fuels me for detachment. Maybe he has seen that doesn't work anymore but the charm and self-pity certainly still do so he's leaning there now. I have to get to a point where those don't work either. Just easier said than done.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by FlySolo
First I wanted to respond to the SSM. I think you have given it enough mental space. It happened. You have taken responsibility and you understand your motivations. But no amount of thinking is going to make him understand your motivations. He has to want to forgive you but he can't do that because doing that so would lay bare his own faults. Stop feeding him and stop torturing yourself.

I think I'm making baby steps of progress on this. I can't change the past. We had some go-rounds this weekend where he varied from "WHY didn't you have this revelation before" to "maybe the A had to happen in order for you to have enough motivation to change." I've been sitting in the latter spot, because it is a part of my pie-in-the-sky dream narrative that this all had to happen in order for us to build a better R on both of our sides. Now.... I'm trying to let that fantasy go. I see him just wanting to lean so much of the blame onto me for "causing the conditions" that put him in a place to cheat. Like he doesn't have his own agency in any of this. But you're absolutely right in that I've done my work on this, and there is nothing for me to do on his side of the equation. He will be motivated to want to understand and forgive, or he won't. (WHY can I say this here and know it to be true 100% but then in the moment I simply can't help myself and need to argue with him? I think I'm realizing (Alison has been especially helpful here) that maybe there is more truth to his controlling narrative than I wanted to believe. That I *did* use tiny little manipulations and actions and words to get him to do what I wanted. Letting go of those behaviors and compunctions of my own is hard, but at least I'm starting to see them. I think again, I need to slow down and remember I'm going to be OK no matter what happens.)

Originally Posted by FlySolo
The other thing I would suggest is to stop thinking about the future. Right now all you need to do is get on with today. What is May doing today which is just for May. Do something that makes today special, not grand spectacular special, just special. Go for a run or call a friend and see about meeting in the park and going for a long walk, find a new recipe and bake a cake/special dinner with the kids.

Everything else can wait.

I can do this. Also I got eight hours of sleep last night which makes such a big difference for me. My pattern has been (after the initial crisis when I can barely sleep at all) to get one good night and one bad night... So I think I'll try some extra sleep measures tonight, like a warm bath and OTC meds or something. Chose a movie to watch with the kids, been marinating some fish I bought at the market (which was fun in and of itself since H has been doing the shopping and I really enjoyed just getting out of the house). Yoga. Thanks, FS. x
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/29/20 11:33 PM
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Say no, calmly and consistently, and see what happens. No to R talks, no to nursing him through whatever he feels like calling his cheating, no to proving you're not all the things he claims he is worried you are, no to accepting the fall out from his infidelity, no to taking the blame for his actions and no to keeping his filthy little affair a secret.

He'll either start treating you with respect or you will find it extremely easy to divorce him.

Alison, this is great advice. I have my next IC appointment tomorrow and maybe I can work with her more on why I am having trouble setting and maintaining these boundaries.

Progress for today: we managed to stop talking about the R before dinner yesterday and then didn't talk about anything meaningful after the kids went to bed. This morning he came up from working and gave me a hug. He asked me how I was doing and I said fine. He said he wasn't. I said let's take a break from talking about this, okay? You know what I think and I know what you think and it doesn't do us any good to keep going around and around on this. He said, I've been doing this for the past two years. I said OK. Well *I* need a break from this. And he said, yes, that is totally fair, I get it. So, we will see if he holds to that or not. For me, I need to believe how important this break is for me and take this space to focus on me, and simply stop engaging whether or not he is able to stop himself.

Originally Posted by BluWave
How do you stop thinking of him and OW together because it fills you with white hot rage you ask? YOU DO THINK ABOUT IT! I want you to think about it! I want you to be angry as h-ll about this! Heck, I am angry about it and Ive never even met him! May, this man has been jerking you around for soooo long -- jerking you all over the place and torturing you -- please, get angry! Because it is real and it is really happening and you could put a planet between them and it would still be real. The love he feels for her is all you need to know. It doesn't matter how close you think he is to you because he lives at home and plays house, or how far away she is, how often they talk, text, engage in phone s-x or s-x in real life, or any tangible detail. All those details don't matter. What matters is that he is thinking of her, he is wanting her, and therefore he is WITH her. She is the one. I am sorry that hurts, but that is the truth and it has been the truth for many years. In his mind and in his heart this is his truth and that is really all that matters. She is the one.

Last Sunday I was able to do this and feel the anger and believe him and it really helped in detaching. I *know* I could do this if he wasn't living here. I need to figure out a path to doing this without him necessarily being out of the house because I have no control over that at the moment.

Originally Posted by BluWave
May, I feel like we are friends even tho I don't know you. And not just because we are in the scorned wives club. I have read so many of your words. You are intelligent, open-minded and forgiving. Part of the problem with that is you are spending a tremendous amount of time trying to understand something that is not to be understood. You do this here on the boards and you do this with him any time you engage in conversation with him. All of this is having the opposite effect and is keeping you more attached to him. Remember the DB basics? They are counter intuitive. You let them go to get them back. You only focus on yourself without them. It is that simple. You have never done that. You have put an infinite amount of energy into understanding this, into him/his process and then you explain/rationalize/justify. And round and round you spin.

I feel like we are friends too-- you have been so generous and kind and helpful through all of this. I feel this connection with so many of you here. I truly don't know where I'd be without the enormous compassion of people from around the world who are so giving of their time and energy to help me, this complete stranger. It is actually overwhelming when you think about it.

The trying to understand that which is not to be understood is sitting with me. Ugh. I have to dissect EVERYTHING. And I think maybe what I'm trying for subconsciously in all these talks is to convince myself that it will never work with him, he doesn't have the internal strength or motivation or vision or whatever to *see* what I can see. Like I have to understand the workings of his mind and anticipate what he is going to do in order to make my own best move next. I need to let all that go and just decide what is best for myself no matter what. And detaching-- stop letting his actions or words affect my emotions.

My narrative to myself has been his mind is clouded with AP and once she is gone and the 'affair fog' clears he'll be back. But truly believing him, that she is his one true love, he is already with her in every meaningful way, she is the one for him. That does hurt. Though strangely that makes me feel more sad than angry. The anger surfaces more with the trappings and anything to do with the children.

Originally Posted by BluWave
I think you really need to keep it simple. You are not together, he is with her and so now you focus on you. The only energy worth expending is on yourself and your Rs with your kids. He and only he f-d up your M and family and that is for him to own. On his own. Every time you engage in convo with him you take ownership and absolve him of some. It hurts. It is terrible. And you should be angry! Once you allow some anger in, I think you can begin to face your reality. It wont be easy to move on as single mom and head of household, but you can do it. You will rock at it! Whatever choices he makes with himself and the kids is his to own now. I would not even worry about that now. ... It is time to let him go and move forward. There is a beautiful life ahead once you make this leap!

The week after I found out he had reconnected with AP, I sat through this compassion training program which included a loving kindness meditation practice. There was one section where you had to envision all suffering in the world and breathe it in, transform it inside of you, and breathe out compassion and loving kindness. This was totally overwhelming for me, just the idea of knowing how I am suffering right now and imagining exponential suffering all over the world since mine is not really that big a deal in the grand scheme, and then the horror of breathing that inside my body.

But when I think about it that is what I have been doing for H, or trying to do. As much as he is responsible for his own actions and is now partially living the consequences of his own actions-- he is suffering. I see it and I feel it and even with all that he's done I still have love for him in my heart, and my instinct is to do what I can to help ease his pain. I think I would do that for anyone if it were within my power. I have so rarely had the real anger and motivation to sustain turning that off that it keeps slipping through my grasp and I go back to the status quo. Scout said this is going to drain me dry. For my own good I need to maintain and sustain a wall and stop taking in his problems. Mine are big enough! This is just an uncomfortable place for me. I guess that discomfort promotes growth, right... I need to go through this valley in order to get to the other side. Work I need to do on myself.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 01:48 AM
Quote
I guess I just wanted to know I wasn't being unreasonable.


Unreasonable?! Your H is lucky you aren't taking him to the cleaners. I guarantee that he is living in fear of your anger. You hold his reputation, his finances, his relationship with his children in your hands. With a few well-chosen actions, you could bring him to his knees. He knows this and he's scared. Scared people are not reasonable. Reason on your part is vulnerability and I'd reconsider showing your H any weakness that he could use to his advantage.

He doesn't have to be a malignant narc to do that, btw. We usually try to fit people into categories, but most people have a mixture of problems. Your H is passive-aggressive, avoidant, and manipulative, but he doesn’t seem to go out of his way to hurt people. He just does what he wants without caring about others. I know you keep saying that he does care, but the mountain of evidence suggests otherwise.

Unfortunately, the results of carelessness are just as painful as deliberate action. He has managed to destroy his own life as well as yours, and he’s in pain too. His pain, however, is based on how the consequences are affecting him, or how they are going to affect him if you get angry enough. He is willing to inflict endless pain on you to avoid facing the ugliness of his own character. You can't force him to face it. Don't do his emotional labour for him!

Any effort spent trying to reason with anyone who is ego-driven is a waste of time. Ignore him and act in your own self-interest. Act like your H for once! It's feels wrong because it is wrong. It's not a healthy way to live long-term, but it's what you need to embrace to achieve action at this crucial point in time. Ignorance and indifference is the easiest way to neutralise his ego-driven nonsense.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 08:52 AM
Thanks, Scout. I think you’re totally correct in that it really doesn’t matter if his behaviors are driven by sociopathy or carelessness or hurt, at this point. It isn’t like he accidentally stepped on my toe. He methodically lies and cheated for two years, said he was ending it and recommitting to the M but was too weak and selfish to actually follow through.

Managed 24 hours without R talks at all. He has gone to bed early the last couple of nights I think to avoid talking. Still sleeping in our bed.

He got home from some errands today and I was filled with anger at him. I could barely look at him. I realized that these feelings were what started kicking off the R talks over the weekend— I was just so angry and hurt and wanted to lash out at him. This time I took some deep breaths and was able to restrain myself. (He was like, what are you doing? Are you ok? I said yes I’m fine, just doing some deep breathing. And didn’t explain myself more.) I made a couple of slightly dark jokes/comments (warned him there were bones in the fish I made for dinner and said be careful... or just choke on them... he kind of laughed and said he didn’t know if I was serious. I didn’t say anything.) but after dinner both girls cuddled with me on the couch and we watched a very silly movie all together (h by himself on the other side of the couch— a girl will go over to him if he asks for one but he hasn’t done that the last few days, just let me have them both) and I just breathed them in and finally relaxed.

I think restraining myself from these R talks is a good thing but hard. And difficult to sit in my anger without wanting to lash out at him. Any thoughts? Also when he says he is MO do I need to be calm or at some point do I get to tell him what a f-up he is?
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 09:52 AM
When I was really really really angry last weekend, I thought about all the things I wanted to do with my anger, and why I wanted to do them, and how I'd acted the other times I'd been angry in the past, and what I'd wanted to achieve by what I'd done, and where it had got me. It gave me a real moment of clarity - to sit with being angry and think it through like that, rather than acting on it. It was extremely difficult and just because I managed it last weekend I don't imagine I will always manage it: I'm not lecturing you from a position of enlightenment here, just sharing some experience.

So - I wanted to really really hurt him. Shout at him or give him some home truths or destroy his stuff or kick him out or humiliate him in some way. I dug under that. Why did I want to hurt him? So he'd know what being hurt felt like. So I wouldn't feel powerless. So he'd stop hurting me.

What else?

I wanted to change him. I wanted to hurt him or lash out at him in some way so he'd behave differently. Okay. And how would that work for me? Say it worked and he started communicating like an adult and being more honest and responsible for himself and affectionate and giving with me? I'd always know, wouldn't I, that I scared him into it - that he was doing it, in some very real way, to avoid my anger.

And I realised that just as you can't 'nice' someone into forgiving you or loving you or being kind to you or choosing you, you can't 'anger' them into it either.

But I was still angry.

And I started to imagine that anger as a very beautiful bear that would protect me - a bear with endless energy that was always, always on my side. A bear that was saying, pretty loudly, 'No way! Enough!'

I'd been wasting my lovely bear's precious energy on changing someone else, which does not work. Laws of physics. We might as well hammer ourselves against gravity or the laws of motion. Or I'd been throttling my lovely bear into silence with guilt and shame. When I just listened to this bear, what she was saying was 'no, this is enough. More than enough. Get out of this. Right now.'

And from then on, I was very clear and calm and it was pretty easy, in the minor skirmishes and also in the big preparing-my-finances stakes - to take immediate and clear action that was about using that precious and hard won energy to protect myself and to get myself into a good place.

I don't know what the end of my story is. But I do know I am not where I was, and because I am not where I was, my marriage cannot be where it was. It is possible for me to single handedly change the dynamic because I simply will not participate at all - not one tiny bit - in the old one. The status quo is dead because I killed it and I killed it because I had absolutely had enough.

I am sure there will be backsliding. And my situation is not your situation and I am not presuming to be an expert here that can tell you what to do. I don't think I could have reached this place one second earlier than I did. I think I had to exhaust all my other strategies of acting the victim, pacifying him, playing dumb, swallowing my anger, punishing myself with guilt, hiding behind a sense of superiority and contempt, self pity - all of that I had to do whole heartedly for bloody months until they just Weren't Enough. But you asked about anger, so perhaps my recent experience with it might be helpful for you.

When you sit in your anger, what does it say to you?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 01:34 PM
M,

Prepare yourself for the fact that you're unlikely to ever get any remorse or any type of apology.

You are right that it [censored], and I'm glad you're angry about it, that's part of processing all of this. Allow yourself to feel all of it and don't worry about it for a minute.

Realistically someone having an affair like this is usually a "last straw" versus a spur of the moment decision. In most relationships needs don't get met, resentments build up, and just pile up over time. When you're living in the same space there's a lot of motivation to compromise and keep the peace, but usually under the surface there's stuff brewing that isn't getting discussed, usually because both people convince themselves that it's just a temporary issue and will go away on its own.

An affair is escapism for sure, and its usually the result of a chance opportunity, or a thousand micro-escalations that happened without any forethought. What it's really a symptom of, however, is conflict avoidance.

For a relationship to be successful both people need to be willing to blow it up on occasion, argue it out and be prepared to walk if a compromise can't be reached. That takes a lot of strength and self-confidence. For more often people stuff it down and pave over it and eventually you're sitting on a volcano that's ready to blow.

Point is, regardless of the affair one or both of you weren't happy. Usually its just a matter of timing in terms of who pulls the rip cord first.

That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting H back will restore these things, but it won't.

So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?
Posted By: cardinal Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 04:02 PM
Allison, your posts have been so helpful for me, too, and this one on anger is no exception. May, as always you are getting good advice. I’m glad you’re finding ways to take care of yourself—getting out of the house to grocery shop, yoga, honoring your feelings and continuing to be curious about them. Re: lashing out at your H, I think of what scout posted: “ Any effort spent trying to reason with anyone who is ego-driven is a waste of time.” I know it wouldn’t be totally reasoning with him, but it feels like it might be a waste of your energy. His logic is totally broken. He seems to know, kind of, he f-ed up but he doesn’t care right now, or isn’t ready to acknowledge his responsibility for the choices he’s made. He just wants everyone to be happy with what he’s doing so he can be happy. Do you think his probable response would be satisfying or more frustrating for you? Might it just drive him to self-pity mode again? If he did show remorse, as Allison said, would that just be in response to your anger but not truly felt? I think about how I used to want to scream at my H a lot of the time... ultimately I felt that any satisfaction for me would be short-lived, and none of what I was saying would really reach him anyway. Would it be helpful to post what you’d love to tell him here? People always suggest journaling these feelings, it seems, and that isn’t always fully satisfying either!

((May)) I hope that cardinal visits you today.
Posted By: Sage4 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 06:05 PM
I too loved Alison's post on anger. That anger bear is a visceral image. Utilizing the power of anger to fuel YOU and your best self. I am hanging on every word of advice given on your thread.

I am going to update on my own not-so-great-outcome situation in a bit, but I am sitting with some thoughts, advice and truths right now that might also be helpful to you in your situation (some of this is redundant, you already know it all, but sometimes it's helpful for reminders):

1. At this point, all the energy you spend thinking about H, his motives, his thoughts, his perceptions, his decision-making, his wants/needs/desires and his future are all a waste of your precious mental energy. The only person you can understand and deeply dig into is yourself. Save that energy for yourself, and if that feels too indulgent right now, save it for the girls.

2. Having said that, if it is cathartic to write/journal all the things you want to say to H, to get it all out, then do so and move on until the next bout of spinning. Repeat, rinse.

3. Hindsight is 20/20, but I know I am not alone in wishing I had listened to my H when he first started saying his truths to me. That I would have taken him at his word and moved one much faster than I did. I spent so much time trying to fix the situation, give him time to change his mind or find a different alternative. I feel like I wasted a part of my life that I cannot get back. I will use those lessons to pave my path to my best-self, so it is not all for nought, but I am dedicated to not wasting my time any longer. I want to find joy and laughter and the amazing moments with my children again. He is not worth my time. DETACH.

4. Stay above the trees. This is an extension of everything above, but being in the forest was so confusing for me ('he's back!' and then 'he's gone' and 'he doesn't know what he wants so there is still hope!' were all exercises in futility. I wish I stayed at least at the 30,000' view and was able to see the matrix of the forest as a whole and not focus on the individual trees. There are too many d**m trees.

5. Self care won't fix things in this moment. But it will strengthen you for the long haul. I have always struggled with prioritizing self-care, so there are moments when it feels forced, or I don't find enough joy or catharsis in it. But I know it will help pull me out of this in the future.

6. Have compassion for yourself. Deep compassion. Love that little hopeful girl inside of you that has fought so hard for the outcome she wanted. Treat her disappointment in the same way you would your daughter's disappointment.

7. Your feelings WILL change. What you feel now will not last forever. Every single one of us has had a huge shift in our feelings, including you, from the beginning of your story to now. Trust that, even though it is hard.

8. Recognize that you are in a state of trauma and pull out all the stops to acknowledge and heal that trauma, whether psycho-pharmacologically, therapeutically, nutritionally and physically. A IC friend of mine recommended EMDR. I am giving myself the grace I would a person with PTSD.

You are adored and worthy of great things. And you will get them in your life, whether your H is by your side or not.

XX
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 08:20 PM
I feel so much gratitude to all of you right now, Alison, Scout, Cardinal, Sage, LH.

I need to sit with some of this advice and really embrace it so don't want to fire off too quickly, but want to say that Alison, this post on anger is really powerful for me. I'm really uncomfortable sitting in this anger but I think I need to feel it and understand it and let it flow through me, and get to a place where I can really ask these questions of myself. I have an IC appointment this afternoon and maybe we can spend some time here. She wanted to last week anyway. I couldn't really sleep last night and have a low burn in my chest. I feel it physically, the anger. I think I'm a little afraid of it. I think if I unleash that bear there is no getting her back. And at this point what she wants to do is tear him limb from limb and once she's finished there she'll turn her great angry eyes on what is next to feed her insatiable hunger. Like taking the lid off of Pandora's box.

Now I know this is still me spending time on him and not on me. But when I got angry last week, he said he was going to have to choose to stay in the M because if I was going to be this angry there was no way he could S from me and do this to the kids. I see what you're saying, Alison, about that then being him staying out of fear of my anger and not because he wants to be here. But an ugly part of me wants that, wants him to suffer, wants him to lose the "love of his life" and suffer the endless consequences of his terrible carelessness and selfishness. I can't stand the idea of him riding off into the sunset with this person. I feel like a bad person even typing that out here. But I worry that a part of me is sticking around out of pure petty spite and suppressed anger. Maybe it is about freeing that anger to transform into something else-- which is what I think you're saying in your post-- harnessing the energy into something positive and using it to fill yourself rather than hammering on the barbed wire fence of trying to change someone else and that great beautiful bear getting bloodied and exhausted and emaciated in the process. I clearly have so much more work to do here.

I'll post more later. Just trying to figure out how to appropriately harness my angry bear.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 06/30/20 10:41 PM
Alison gave you great psychological advice. From a practical standpoint, the anger must be vented somehow or you’ll start noticing worse physical effects than not sleeping or eating.

1. Talk to take the emotional edge off your anger. A parent or sister or friend can be a wonderful source of validation and reassurance. Do you think that you’re ready to start letting people in? Whether D or S is a foregone conclusion or not (and I think it is at their point) you need to start leaning on your trusted circle for support. Don’t worry about fear of judgment or what your H will say. This is for you.

2. Write down everything you are holding in. I know you already journal, but directing your thoughts with purpose could help with the anger. The notes app on your phone is handy. I drafted scathing letters to X that I never sent, Facebook posts exposing him and OW, a letter to his mother that I did eventually send, a list of boundaries I was struggling with at the time, canned responses to potential conversations... direct your anger somewhere rather than internalising it.

3. Lean into it by visualising everything that is causing you pain. This is really hard but the idea is to desensitise yourself. Imagine them having s-x. Imagine him kissing her and whispering that he loves her. Imagine them announcing their engagement or worse (I know he said he doesn’t want more kids but) a pregnancy. Imagine their wedding with your kids as flower girls. Imagine her as your kids step-mother. If you work through those feelings now, they won’t hurt as much later.

4. Act upon your anger. Generally I’d say he’s not worth the energy BUT you have to be authentic, so give yourself permission to throw some truth bombs if it’s what YOU need - not to try and change his behaviour. Just remember you have to be able to live with yourself and you don’t want any regrets when it comes to your kids. So be true to yourself. You don’t have to stuff your feelings down and you should never feel guilty for your anger when you have been victimised.

5. Buy a punching bag and boxing gloves. Put your H’s face on it if you want. Go to town. You might want to hide this from your kids if you put his face on it smile
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
That's why it's now important to separate the desire for the person, from the desire for resumption of control, stability, and positive validation. Your brain is telling you that getting H back will restore these things, but it won't.

This resonates. A lot.

Originally Posted by LH19
So ask yourself, what do you want and why do you want it?

For me-- I want a committed, loving partner and friend. H is not that today and may never be that again. For my Ds, I want them to have the best of everything, and to me, that is still a 2-parent household. if that isn't possible, I want to give them what I can control-- a loving, happy mom and home.

I *wanted* so so much to embark on this new consulting career for so many reasons, which I don't think I can do with the uncertainties of D. So that is hard for me to give up, but I know giving it up now doesn't mean forever. I also very very much want to look back at this time and feel no regrets in/re my children, that I did everything I could to work on the M for them. I think that is why I simply am not ready to be the one to make the call to end it, as tempting as it is.

I had a really, really good conversation with my IC this afternoon. We talked about all kinds of things that many of you have brought up here-- what am I getting out of these conversations with H, where my boundaries are, why I can't hold them up. The anger. She brought up emotional labor and said it very much feels like I'm doing this for him and I need to stop. That I'm taking in all his distress and my compassion is letting him off the hook for taking ownership of his own actions. That the anger is a good thing in that it may help stop me from doing his work for him. And she says OK to let it out to him in small doses to push back on him trying to lay all the responsibilities for where we are at my feet.

Scout, all your suggestions around healthy release of the anger are gold. She said if I'm feeling the anger as a physical sensation, that isn't healthy for me to internalize it and I need to let it out.

Sage, I'm copying your suggestions onto my phone to look at them all day long. I think taking my focus off of him and back onto me and the girls is the most important thing I can do. After the session with the IC, the anger has abated somewhat and I feel more centered.

Here are some positive things about today:

-- I was able to get some work done that I've been putting off for awhile.
-- I spent some time in self-care mode
-- IC conversation was terrific
-- no R talks for the past 48 hours (one mini exception which I'll mention in a moment)
-- H being respectful and kind, letting me do my thing
-- girls being fun and funny and cuddly and I love them more than anything
-- MIL bought me a kindle novel that I think will be totally escapist and am totally looking forward to reading
-- made plans with friends for the weekend, H welcome to come but I left him off the planning text thread
-- I know H is looking at apartments on craigslist.

In the IC talk, she said it felt like H filled up the space and even when I was talking about the possible future and what my boundaries were there, that it was still about him. What did I want for ME? (You guys should all be therapists, BTW.) I think I've mentioned before that H had this multi-state month-long trip planned for the summer that we had to cancel and he is really, really bummed about it. Before this last BD we talked about alternatives, staying closer to home, all the great things we could experience without all the tourists and that this is kind of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity here. A week or so ago he told me he had booked a campervan to do four weeks locally, which I thought was a good idea (will get him out if nothing else!!). Of course he wants to take the girls. Of course I won't be OK with that if we are S. He continually interprets that as a threat to the extent I simply don't even mention it anymore.

Today, I was thinking about it and thought... there's a boundary that I truly feel and can enforce. I'm not OK going on a trip and playing happy family with H if he hasn't definitively ended things with AP. I don't want to worry that he's off texting her when we are on a trip together. So that can be a good deadline for me and something I'm willing to enforce. And then he's gone for four weeks and that gives me space and he can MO when he gets back. But I wasn't sure when he'd booked the campervan so I asked him when the dates were, he told me, asked me why, I said no reason. he pushed a little and I said I really don't want to talk about it but I do want to say that I don't want to play happy family on this trip if you're still in contact with her. He said, I know that would be weird. And she would feel weird about it too. I said, I don't want to talk about it. he said, aren't you worried I'll decide to stay for the wrong reasons? I said yes. He said I think the moral decision is to stay. But I'm worried it isn't the best long-term choice for either of us. I said nothing. He said what if I'm still ambivalent? What then? I said, you make your decisions and I'll make mine. I don't want to talk about it. And walked away.

I still was a little worried about why I didn't want H to take the kids on this trip, really at all. Was I being petty and mean? Was I just trying to threaten him into staying? But after the IC talk, she really made me feel confident that this is simply a boundary of mine. That it isn't good for the kids if we are Sing to not have a regular routine and being just with dad for a long period of time. Also, selfishly, for me I have never really wanted to spend serious time away from them. I've only done it as a compromise because I gave a $hit what he thinks and I won't anymore. They're only little once and only will want to hang out with me for a few more years, so I want to savor every moment of this that I can. the IC totally supported this and made me feel so much better about it. It isn't a threat, it is a boundary. And there are consequences to having an affair. This is one. Not having both your wife and your lover in your life equally is another. Not living in the basement while carrying on an R with another person. He has to start facing these and he won't as long as I'm enabling him to avoid it. (YOU GUYS! As I typed this I'm realizing you have said this to me over and over. It is finally sinking in.)

So I feel so much more confident and strong about my boundaries than I have to date.

Also, BluWave posted some fabulous stuff on BlueWave's thread that I'm taking to heart too... I'm pushing H to the back of the fridge like an old jar of pickles. This week it will be about me.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 06:25 AM
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But when I got angry last week, he said he was going to have to choose to stay in the M because if I was going to be this angry there was no way he could S from me and do this to the kids.


That is sheer manipulation and head games. He knows he cant offer you what you want, but he doesn't want to leave either, so he's going to claim he's staying because you're not fit to navigate a divorce in a way he feels is appropriate. Can you see that's some version, more or less precisely, of my H saying to me he isn't leaving because I'm too incompetent to manage on my own? It's another way of failing to take responsibility and putting the blame for that on to your emotional state - which you are controlling and which is highly justified. Even reading this makes me FURIOUS for you. Does it make you angry?

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I see what you're saying, Alison, about that then being him staying out of fear of my anger and not because he wants to be here. But an ugly part of me wants that, wants him to suffer, wants him to lose the "love of his life" and suffer the endless consequences of his terrible carelessness and selfishness. I can't stand the idea of him riding off into the sunset with this person. I feel like a bad person even typing that out here. But I worry that a part of me is sticking around out of pure petty spite and suppressed anger.


This is good May. Your honesty is very good. Anger is not ugly. There are ways to act it out that are not okay - but whatever your anger is saying, no matter how unreasonable, needs your attention. It will not go away and you will not be able to choose your best course of action until you hear this out. Don't be ashamed of being a normal human being. Last weekend I felt like chucking all my H's clothes onto the street. It was petty and unreasonable and vindictive but I had every right to be angry and I needed to hear it out before I could get underneath it.

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Maybe it is about freeing that anger to transform into something else-- which is what I think you're saying in your post-- harnessing the energy into something positive and using it to fill yourself rather than hammering on the barbed wire fence of trying to change someone else and that great beautiful bear getting bloodied and exhausted and emaciated in the process. I clearly have so much more work to do here.


YES. You said to me - on my thread 'you came by those feelings honestly' and you were right and it really helped me. So I am saying it to you. Whatever vindictive and crazy fantasies your anger leads you to, listen to them. I AM NOT SAYING ACT ON THEM. But if your anger is making you want to punish your husband, or humiliate him, or make him suffer, sit with that without shame or guilt and dig underneath and see why. Your anger wants to look after you, but it's like a crazy toddler with badly thought out plans. You can ignore the plan (obviously I wasn't ever really going to chuck my husband's clothes into the street) and try to get at what the protective spirit is. You can do this.

And May - you have every single right to be as angry as you feel like for as long as you feel like. Your husband has acted absolutely terribly and to my mind, the continuing manipulation of you is 100% worse than the affair. I really really really want you to see this, because you can't do anything about his affair or feelings for his mistress, but you can get yourself out of the dynamic where you allow him to manipulate you. You could stop that dead today if you wanted to. I KNOW when you are good and ready, you will do that, and I wish with all my heart I could be in the room to see his face when he realises - really really realises down to his bones - that he doesn't have you as his puppet any more, you are seeing clearly, and you have his number. I would pay good money for that. And I KNOW it will happen when you are ready.

Do you think one of the reasons you might not be ready yet is because there's a part of you that knows if you saw it really clearly and listened to what your anger was telling you, your marriage as it stands would be over? Is that a part of it?
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 08:40 AM
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
That is sheer manipulation and head games. He knows he cant offer you what you want, but he doesn't want to leave either, so he's going to claim he's staying because you're not fit to navigate a divorce in a way he feels is appropriate. Can you see that's some version, more or less precisely, of my H saying to me he isn't leaving because I'm too incompetent to manage on my own? It's another way of failing to take responsibility and putting the blame for that on to your emotional state - which you are controlling and which is highly justified. Even reading this makes me FURIOUS for you. Does it make you angry?

Yes. I can see exactly how it aligns with you H saying he can't leave because you can't manage on your own. And I agree that it is failing to take responsibility and just shoving the decision back at my feet... well, I guess I can't do what I want to do because May is so unreasonable.

But... I don't feel angry about it. More exasperated. Annoyed. I want to roll my eyes at him and say WAKE THE F UP. Here I am telling you to GO and now you've made up yet another reason why it isn't your fault that you can't walk and are feeling sorry for yourself again. Tbh, it feels less manipulative of me and more pathetic of him. That is actually how I felt about your H too-- not angry, just pathetically funny.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Do you think one of the reasons you might not be ready yet is because there's a part of you that knows if you saw it really clearly and listened to what your anger was telling you, your marriage as it stands would be over? Is that a part of it?

Yes, I think so. Although I feel like I already know my marriage is over. It takes two people to be married and he certainly hasn't acted like a married person the last couple of years. It is the shape of the marriage, the house, the children, the comfortable dance in the kitchen in the mornings and the bathroom at night. The person who you can still vent to and who listens and validates and tells you you were right and so-and-so is such a jerk to have said that to you. Who picks up your D when she comes out of her room for the fourth time and can't sleep and goes and lays down with her until she finally passes out. Who makes you a drink after work and says no, sit, I'll take care of the dishes or dinner or whatever. Pays the bills and congratulates you for doing something great and texts silly jokes to your mom.

I know these are just the shell, the shadow of what a real H is supposed to be. But it still does have meaning and I will miss it when he's gone.

And I look at my Ds and my heart breaks afresh in two every. single. time. I think about him leaving. They love him so, so much. D8 was looking at a photo on H's nightstand of the two of us when we were first dating and said she loved that picture. H asked why? She said because you love each other. (This one is a total empath. She takes things so to heart. She has been all over me ever since this all started happening again, wants to sit on me, be my baby, cuddle me in the mornings and at night. I'm so frightened what this is going to do to her. I keep taking my rings off and putting them in a box on my dresser and she keeps checking there and bringing them back to me and putting them back on my finger. I'm not taking them off out of any real reason-- kneading dough or something is the primary reason-- but I also am not putting them back on right away either.)

I know that is a part of it. The IC wanted to know why I was holding more anger for AP than for H. I said, I know i should be angrier with H than with AP. And maybe I just can't quite yet embrace the enormity of his betrayal so it gets placed on her. And somehow she is the personification of all that he did, embodied in this perky marathon-running younger-but-better version of me and I simply can't stand the idea of her being a real human being in my life. So I think partially I'm still deflecting some of the anger that he so deeply deserves around him and to her. Again, yes, maybe to deflect the knowledge that once I fully accept everything that is going on, we are done. We have to be. And I'm not quite ready for that, I guess. Getting closer and closer. But not quite there yet-- at least, not to the extent that I could pull the trigger myself. But I am thinking of setting the July 25 deadline of the scheduled trip-- isn't happening for anyone but H on his own, unless things change mightily, which they won't, so there's a good end date for me.I can handle another three weeks of this, especially knowing that it can't go on forever.

Tonight was a good night. Read my novel, had a couple amazing Belgian beers a friend brought home from Europe, we all watched a fun show, no R talks.
Posted By: Newbie20 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 09:36 AM
Wow, just wow. I read here from time to time.

No advice here. I just want to say from my perspective as one who did reconcile that I would not tolerate going to back to that Crazytown you were living in.

This b*tch, the AP, is a real piece of work. And so is he. They deserve each other. It seems as if he needs the crutch of putting you in place as an obstacle to his "true happiness" . I'd call him on that. I still think he would ultimately not go but do you want this anymore?
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 10:04 AM
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I want to roll my eyes at him and say WAKE THE F UP. Here I am telling you to GO and now you've made up yet another reason why it isn't your fault that you can't walk and are feeling sorry for yourself again.


I hesitate to recommend this, as I think we're in different places and I know right now I am more concerned with my own wellbeing than the wellbeing of my marriage, and I don't know if that is a place you want to be in.

But as a thought experiment, what comes up for you when you imagine saying this to him - just putting your own truth right there on the table - and then leaving the room and not listening to any response he has to it?

What does that feel like?

For me, it got to the point where my sanity and wellbeing relied on calling out the truth as I saw it. It does not rely on my H changing his course, agreeing with me, or feeling good about me calling it out. It solely relies on something I can control - getting those truths out on the table as when I see fit to do so.

I suspect your husband really really really needs you to believe the trash he is spinning for himself. And without getting into an R talk where you try to convince him that your way of seeing things is actually the right way, how about you just lay it out on the table that you think this is all self serving nonsense and you see it, and you're not playing anymore?
Posted By: HopeCA Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by AlisonUK
Quote
I want to roll my eyes at him and say WAKE THE F UP. Here I am telling you to GO and now you've made up yet another reason why it isn't your fault that you can't walk and are feeling sorry for yourself again.

I suspect your husband really really really needs you to believe the trash he is spinning for himself. And without getting into an R talk where you try to convince him that your way of seeing things is actually the right way, how about you just lay it out on the table that you think this is all self serving nonsense and you see it, and you're not playing anymore?


Hi May,

I’ve been following along closely. I’ve had so many things I’ve wanted to respond to on this thread, but I really wanted to chime in here and just say that, for whatever it’s worth, I think Alison’s idea is a really good one. I second her recommendation. I think for you personally, as well as for your situation, putting an end to the game he’s playing and calling his BS/bluff/whatever it is, will serve and empower you.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/01/20 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Newbie20
Wow, just wow. I read here from time to time.

No advice here. I just want to say from my perspective as one who did reconcile that I would not tolerate going to back to that Crazytown you were living in.

This b*tch, the AP, is a real piece of work. And so is he. They deserve each other. It seems as if he needs the crutch of putting you in place as an obstacle to his "true happiness" . I'd call him on that. I still think he would ultimately not go but do you want this anymore?

Newbie!! I have been thinking of you recently and wondering if you ever come back.... wondering what you would think *now*. Thanks for popping back in smile

Alison and Hope-- I've been trying to remember what my response exactly was when he said this to me. I was really, really angry but calm. I may have rolled my eyes slightly. I would say that to be completely honest with myself, in my immediate reaction 75% of me was shaking my head and could have spoken that truth. 25% of me had a little hope bubble pop up (think Joy popping up in the movie Inside Out) thinking oh! Maybe this is how I get my way after all! I shoved her down.

I think I shook my head and said, the kids will be fine. Then I went into a split proposal of when he could spend time with them every day after school and then take half the weekend. That I'd looked at rentals and finances and we could afford for him to have a separate place, that it was stupid for him to want to live in the basement to save money. That wouldn't be good for any of us. These were my truths in the moment, about how I saw the future. In that moment, the 75% part of me didn't really care what my telling him would make him think or do. The 25% hopeful part of me was thinking OK, I am showing him what S/D will really look like and maybe popping his fantasy bubble and confronting the reality of the situation will help him choose to stay. Does he need to live it to understand it? Or could it be like Scrooge's dreams in A Christmas Carol, enough to make him change?

I know I came off as cold and angry to him. I can't really recall him arguing with much of this. I think he went into his sad self-pity mode and went and laid down on the bed (and read the Shirley Glass book). I got an angry "I can't believe you did this on Father's Day" later on but mostly he moped around and felt sorry for himself. I didn't engage.

A few days later, once he had had time to think about all of this and position his arguments, the child care proposal turned into me controlling how we D, it wouldn't be good for the kids, they would need us to be friends, so don't I see how controlling the scenario of splitting up is just him again submitting to me blah blah blah? Why does everything have to be so black and white with me? I said, I wasn't trying to say this is how it would be. I simply made a proposal. I'm assuming we would discuss it. And we fell back into the same dynamic as before.

All that to say... maybe I could do that if it comes up again. I have used the "if that is what you need to tell yourself, OK. That's fine. Go. But I'm not going to make this decision for you" response to him a bunch of times when he's saying he can't choose to stay because (dumb reason A B or C). So far, I can't remember saying anything along those lines in terms of his choice to stay, except for asking me to agree that a particular reason (the house, the life, the children, the trip) aren't good enough reasons to stay, right? To which when I'm weak I've said I don't think those are bad reasons to start out with but you can't end there, and when I'm stronger have said I don't know. This is for you to figure out. Not me.

Part of me feels like telling him that truth in the moment is still doing some of the emotional labor for him and I just don't want to say anything to him at this point that could be twisted into telling him what he should think or do, or what I think is going on in his head. Maybe I can get to that place and see how it goes... but for now I think trying to stay consistent for a bit on simply not engaging in these discussions and holding my boundaries might be the best I can do.

That being said-- thank you for suggesting it, Alison. I will keep it in mind for sure and work towards being there.

I'll share another thing-- for a long time, we've had a difference of opinion on what the next major house expense should be. He has wanted to fix the leaky basement (which makes most practical sense) but I've wanted a privacy fence along one side of the house. This is also somewhat of a prerequisite to getting a dog, which H really doesn't want (but knows I'll get when he goes, and may get regardless). Back in February when he decided to stay, we decided together that fixing the basement was the next most important thing and have been talking about it loosely, but not made any moves. I had some lingering sadness about my fence and my dog. Last weekend I said I really want to do this fence (I was looking at puppies online). And H said... we should do it. This is something you want. I said OK and called a couple of companies and one of them came out to do an estimate today. Usually, he would be the one doing these things but I handled it myself. Anyway. It feels good to be doing something big that I want for myself. I don't know what H's motivation is in this--manipulation, guilt, whatever-- but I don't really care. I am just happy to be moving forward with this thing I've wanted to do for a couple of years.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/02/20 01:53 AM
I'm still reading the rest of the posts, but this:

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It is the shape of the marriage, the house, the children, the comfortable dance in the kitchen in the mornings and the bathroom at night. The person who you can still vent to and who listens and validates and tells you you were right and so-and-so is such a jerk to have said that to you. Who picks up your D when she comes out of her room for the fourth time and can't sleep and goes and lays down with her until she finally passes out. Who makes you a drink after work and says no, sit, I'll take care of the dishes or dinner or whatever. Pays the bills and congratulates you for doing something great and texts silly jokes to your mom.


There are literally billions of men on the planet who can do this! They won't be your kids' father, and they won't share your history, but any long-term relationship has all these elements. Not to mention the trust and respect and everything else you don't have with your current H.

Staying with H is a bad bet as he's already proven himself capable of terrible betrayal and deception. Another man COULD be capable, but your current husband IS. Statistically, the odds are better with someone new. Just something to keep in mind, I know you are not even thinking of dating or anything like that.

Your posts are all about H. What he said, what he thought, how he felt, what it means. So I would like to know more about May! I'm not particularly concerned about H's opinions or the context of the current dynamic. Not so you can play the victim, but to understand how your H has failed as a husband in ways other than the affair. I guarantee he was not the perfect husband before this started because a SSM doesn't exist in a vacuum.

This isn't an exercise in blame, because we all fail in many ways in relationships, but I want you to stop blaming yourself. So if you say "my H wasn't XYZ, but that's because I wasn't XYZ", I will give you a gentle tap with a 2x4 smile

- What are the values you seek in a partner?
- How do you want a partner to treat you in a marriage?
- What unmet needs did you have in the marriage?
Posted By: Pommy99 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/02/20 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by may22
I think I shook my head and said, the kids will be fine. Then I went into a split proposal of when he could spend time with them every day after school and then take half the weekend. That I'd looked at rentals and finances and we could afford for him to have a separate place, that it was stupid for him to want to live in the basement to save money. That wouldn't be good for any of us. These were my truths in the moment, about how I saw the future. In that moment, the 75% part of me didn't really care what my telling him would make him think or do. The 25% hopeful part of me was thinking OK, I am showing him what S/D will really look like and maybe popping his fantasy bubble and confronting the reality of the situation will help him choose to stay. Does he need to live it to understand it? Or could it be like Scrooge's dreams in A Christmas Carol, enough to make him change?

I think he needs to live it to understand it. He knows what it *might* feel like for him, but he has so far proved he is unable to see things from anyone else's perspective and still holds on to this pipe dream of being a happy family of 5. I suspect he will be unprepared for the fallout of breaking up a family, and how the children are going to react (I think this is so much of an unknown, no matter how much you prepare them for the changes ahead). Re the holiday scenario, I dont see you as being petty. Does he really think that during this period uncertainty (which clearly your D has already picked up on) the girls will want to spend 2/3/4 weeks away from their home and their mum? They might not want to go with him at all - has he considered that? Whether you frame it as being for their benefit not to go for a prolonged period, or for your own benefit, you are not in the wrong, and it's ok to say "I'm not ready for this right now". He's taken away your M, your H, potentially your home and now the children, all on his terms? He doesnt get to have it all his own way, it doesnt work like that!! That's not to say you should be confrontational and controlling, or that you treat the children as commodities, but it's ok to say that you need more time to adapt. The children will too.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/02/20 11:45 AM
Hi May

I guess when I said how would it feel to confront him with your truths, I was asking more about you than him.

If you are going to do it, less words are better.

'I don't believe that,' works. So does 'that's a very self-serving way to look at this, and I don't buy it for one minute,' or 'I don't plan on justifying my decisions based on what you imagine I might or might not do in the future,' or 'you are being very manipulative and I won't engage with that.'

You don't need to convince him to see things your way. You don't need to understand the intricacies of WHY he sees it the way he does. I only suggest you get it on the table that you don't buy his %^I( any more, and I suggest this because I think it will be good for your wellbeing.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/02/20 07:47 PM
Thanks, everyone.

Scout-- your questions deserve more than what I can give them right now but I've been pondering them and will work on them over the next few days.

Originally Posted by Pommy99

I think he needs to live it to understand it. He knows what it *might* feel like for him, but he has so far proved he is unable to see things from anyone else's perspective and still holds on to this pipe dream of being a happy family of 5. I suspect he will be unprepared for the fallout of breaking up a family, and how the children are going to react (I think this is so much of an unknown, no matter how much you prepare them for the changes ahead). Re the holiday scenario, I dont see you as being petty. Does he really think that during this period uncertainty (which clearly your D has already picked up on) the girls will want to spend 2/3/4 weeks away from their home and their mum? They might not want to go with him at all - has he considered that? Whether you frame it as being for their benefit not to go for a prolonged period, or for your own benefit, you are not in the wrong, and it's ok to say "I'm not ready for this right now". He's taken away your M, your H, potentially your home and now the children, all on his terms? He doesnt get to have it all his own way, it doesnt work like that!! That's not to say you should be confrontational and controlling, or that you treat the children as commodities, but it's ok to say that you need more time to adapt. The children will too.

Pommy-- I think you're right. It just makes me SO ANGRY that he is so fixated on (whatever) that the children need to be dragged into this. His mom told me she thinks he has no idea how angry D10 is going to be at him. I know they're resilient and all the rest. It just burns me that they will be paying for his selfish decisions. And thanks for the reinforcement on the vacation. I'm feeling confident here and that it isn't my job anymore to take his feelings into consideration, and also that it isn't my job to get him on board with why I'm making certain decisions. Once we split, all that goes away.

Alison-- I think I'm pretty much in the same place I was the day we had that conversation I described-- 75% detached, 25% that traitorous hopeful side wondering if my doing XY or Z will weight him to choose the MR, even though intellectually I know that isn't a good idea, there is nothing that says to me he will magically become a good partner, etc. I like the less words and simply not engaging. That I can do.

Quick journaling-- if I examine myself and how I feel this week versus last week, I feel significantly better. Less anxiety. More anger. I talked to my friend and told her the physical manifestations had moved from the heavy pit in the stomach of fear and anxiety to the low burn of anger in my chest. She said I sounded a lot better, less emotion when talking about him. So, I do feel like I'm moving in the right direction. I want to continue to focus on myself and my boundaries, stop worrying about his motivations or behaviors or whatever, focus on the positives in the future for me on my own.

I went to the dentist yesterday and came home to H finishing his IC session. He gave me a sad look and said he wasn't OK, he had had a panic attack a half hour before his call and was freaking out, has never had a panic attack before, blah blah blah. I said, OK. Are you OK now? he said no. I said, I'm sorry. and then disengaged. Later he said he could tell that I really felt a lot better after my IC appointment yesterday and I confirmed. I said (maybe shouldn't have but I did) that it really helped me start to focus on myself, confirmed for me that boundaries are not threats. He said I don't even know what your boundaries are excepting not wanting to talk about AP. I said, things like not being friends, not playing happy family on a trip, etc. I'll make decisions in my own best interest and that of the children. He got super quiet and left the room.

I'm feeling better and better about the trip (July 25) being the end of this situation. The children and I are not going if the current situation persists. And, the fact that he's been looking at apartments makes me feel much better that we won't have some extended garbage of him living in the basement. I think he'll go, maybe after he gets back from his trip. (My friend said she'd help me pack up his stuff while he was away too.)

Scout, will work on your questions. smile
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/02/20 08:03 PM
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I went to the dentist yesterday and came home to H finishing his IC session. He gave me a sad look and said he wasn't OK, he had had a panic attack a half hour before his call and was freaking out, has never had a panic attack before, blah blah blah. I said, OK. Are you OK now? he said no. I said, I'm sorry. and then disengaged. Later he said he could tell that I really felt a lot better after my IC appointment yesterday and I confirmed. I said (maybe shouldn't have but I did) that it really helped me start to focus on myself, confirmed for me that boundaries are not threats. He said I don't even know what your boundaries are excepting not wanting to talk about AP. I said, things like not being friends, not playing happy family on a trip, etc. I'll make decisions in my own best interest and that of the children. He got super quiet and left the room.


STANDING OVATION.

You handled this really well.

Watch for what happens next. He's probably going to go full on self pity - there might be crying, not-eating, wafting around the house looking ostentatiously miserable. Talking long and loud about what a horrible person he is and how terrible he feels about himself. If he does this, he's still looking for a 'there there' from Mommy and what you're looking for is an adult, a partner, a man who can make a decision and take responsibility for clearing up his mess.

I am so glad you are feeling better May. Don't be afraid of your anger. It is your rocket fuel for getting unstuck.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/02/20 09:49 PM
YES, MAY!

Remember the mindf*ck channels. Rage, charm, self-pity. You are really getting a handle on noticing his manipulative behaviour. The next step is calling it out. Prepare for the rage channel when you do. It will be easier to stay calm when you remember how the pattern works. The manipulation attempts will become laughable. I do believe he will lose his power over you once he realises you've cottoned on. Take the wind from his sails and draw up your spine because you are a QUEEN!

Do no harm but take no sh!t!
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 03:06 AM
OK guys,

I need some moral support here. You guys would be totally proud of what I just did but it was not easy.

He came to talk to me (I was laying in bed reading). Said he knew he had scheduled the campervan rentals without talking to me, really, and he mostly did it in response to having to cancel the big trip. I said nothing. He asked what I thought of shortening it to two five-day trips and he could take the girls. I said no. He said well if we decide to make a go of it we can do the trips together as a family. I shrugged, nodded. he said well what if we're still in this place we are right now? No change? I just looked at him and he answered his own question, then I guess we should just cancel it. I went back to my book.

He kept walking in and saying something and leaving when I wouldn't engage. Examples: (he had a 1-1 session with the MC today) MC said it is messed up you're using this trip as leverage to get what you want. You're going to get your way and control me like you've controlled me our entire lives. You can't have it both ways, you love me and want to R with me on one hand or you hate me on the other. You can't play both sides. You shouldn't be a Democrat because you are so close-minded. You only see what you want to see and refuse to consider anything else. (That made me kind of angry, I said I'm not going to listen to this and walked away. He said that's how it's always been, you won't listen.) If we are split by then it is only fair you get them half the time and I get them half the time so I can legally take them on these trips. (To this I did respond, no, you can't. We both have to agree on travel, legally.) Then, you can't say you love them and are making decisions in their best interest if you don't let them go. You're being selfish. You can't both say you want to R because it is in the best interests of our children and yet switch to not taking them into consideration, they'll have to do more summer school instead of a trip? Maybe I'll just go by myself then (I said that sounds great and he leapt on that immediately-- why is it not OK for them to be away from you but OK for them to be away from me?). Etc.

It wasn't yelling, but he was angry. I tried to imagine him like a wave battering me as a tall rock or cliff on the shore. I wasn't going anywhere. (Someone gave me that imagery a long time ago-- thank you!) I responded minimally, from I don't want to talk about it, I don't want to speculate, I'm not going to argue with you about this, I'm not having this discussion with you right now, I'm not going to be manipulated into changing my mind. This is a boundary for me. I left twice. At one point he said this is three weeks away, the likelihood is that things won't have changed significantly. I said, maybe they should. This can't go on forever. he said, if you've changed your mind about what you want let me know. I said, I'm not making this decision for you.

Anyway. That was it. He took D10 to soccer practice and I'm trying to be calm and be sure I'm doing the right thing. I *don't* want him to decide to stay in the M because otherwise I won't "let" him go on this trip with the kids without me. I get I can stop this whole thing by pulling the plug but I really don't want to do that still. I want to make him make this choice himself.

I guess-- focus on me, I'm doing the right thing by myself and the kids. I don't want to be apart from them, I don't think it is in their best interests to be apart from me. Partially, I kind of get not really that much of a change to play happy family on a trip vs playing happy family here at home, so maybe this is yet another arbitrary deadline I've put onto this. he said how are we going to explain to them why we aren't going on this trip if we are in this same place in three weeks? I didn't answer, but that is kind of a good question. I just want either a clean break or the third party out of the picture. I don't want to continue to enable his ridiculous fantasy by playing along.

I know consistency is key and there is more to come of all of this.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 05:12 AM
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MC said it is messed up you're using this trip as leverage to get what you want. You're going to get your way and control me like you've controlled me our entire lives. You can't have it both ways, you love me and want to R with me on one hand or you hate me on the other. You can't play both sides. You shouldn't be a Democrat because you are so close-minded. You only see what you want to see and refuse to consider anything else. (That made me kind of angry, I said I'm not going to listen to this and walked away. He said that's how it's always been, you won't listen.) If we are split by then it is only fair you get them half the time and I get them half the time so I can legally take them on these trips. (To this I did respond, no, you can't. We both have to agree on travel, legally.) Then, you can't say you love them and are making decisions in their best interest if you don't let them go. You're being selfish. You can't both say you want to R because it is in the best interests of our children and yet switch to not taking them into consideration, they'll have to do more summer school instead of a trip? Maybe I'll just go by myself then (I said that sounds great and he leapt on that immediately-- why is it not OK for them to be away from you but OK for them to be away from me?). Etc.


Translation: "WAAAAH! It's not FAIR! If you don't give me what I want, you're a big MEANIE and you don't LOVE me! Actually, I don't love YOU. I might just RUN AWAY from home because you are so MEAN! Maybe THEN you'll care about me. I'm taking my favourite toys and I'm LEAVING! I don't CARE what you say. You're not the BOSS of me! NYAHHHH!"

I busted a gut at "you shouldn't be a Democrat because you are so close-minded". That is the funniest thing I've read in a while. How did you keep a straight face?!

Rage channel mixed with self-pity. Brush it off. The accusation that you didn't consider his FEEEEELINGS is absurd and patently wrong.

You probably hate this idea. But I actually think you might benefit from him taking the kids on a trip. Just gently, I do think this is a little bit of a control issue for you. Agreeing to it will calm him down and make him more agreeable. You get some space to breathe and prepare for whatever comes next. You could also use it as leverage. He can take the kids, as long as he agrees to move out upon their return. He can take the kids, but you want a separation agreement and custody arrangement hammered out in advance. He can take the kids, but he has to break the news to them about whatever comes next.

Just a thought.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 06:06 AM
Good morning May. You did great! Scout called this - he was having a little temper tantrum because he's not getting his own way. I think in time you will come to find this as silly and amusing as we do. In the meantime, just do what you're dong - don't take the bait, don't negotiate with him when he's being emotionally manipulative, and don't show any upset, fear or anger. You are amazing.

I suspect your Husband will turn the volume up on this before he's done - either more rage, or self pity, or charm - so watch for that. Have your handbag, purse and keys to hand so that if you need to leave abruptly for a walk, you can do.

A lot of your journey over the past few months has been about accepting the truth and bringing your actions into line with that truth. I see you doing that. It isn't easy. And a lot of that journey has been painful - it has been horrible for you to accept your husband is a lying cheater who manipulates you to get what he wants and that you have been allowing that. It's horrible.

I think there might be more steps to take. If you rebuild a marriage with your H it is going to have to rest on your complete autonomy - no manipulation from him - and his complete freedom - no pressure or bargaining from you. And if you divorce, you will have to navigate co-parenting just the same - with a man you have no influence or control over, and who has no influence and control over you.

I don't think I'd want my kids away from me for a month either. But unless you have specific safety concerns, I don't see any reason why he shouldn't take them for two five day trips. If he's a good dad the kids need him and they need alone time with him. And if you divorce, 50/50 might be best for the girls and vacations with a father who loves them and is capable of caring for them is good for them and good for you.

I wonder if you are ready to drop the rope entirely? It seems he does feel controlled, and it seems there are two things you are hanging on to - not letting him have this trip with the girls - and telling him what his divorced future is going to look like. What does it feel like to let those goes?

'I've changed my mind. We're going to move towards 50/50 custody with the girls, so we may as well get used to that now.'

'I have no idea what our friendship will be like in ten year's time. All I know is that I won't be in an open marriage, and that I don't particularly feel like being friendly with a man I am divorcing for adultery right now.'

I think moving toward these positions would help your H feel less controlled, wouldn't mean you giving up your boundaries, and might put enough space and air into the situation that your husband can think about what he wants and needs rather than constantly pitting himself against Big Bad May who won't let him have his own way.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 08:34 AM
Scout, on reflection the Democrat comment was funny. In the moment I was miffed. But at the same time I was thinking is he kidding me? Are we really comparing me not wanting to have fake family holiday with my cheating husband with being a Republican???

I was reading your post, Scout, the toddler part, when he was putting the kids down. I was giggling and he came and sat down right next to me, super close, and asked me what I was giggling about. I'd closed the phone up and said I didn't want to tell him. he got all hurt... I'm "keeping secrets" from him now. I don't want to tell him what I'm doing on my phone. Isn't that exactly what I'm asking him not to do.

Ok. That was actually funny in real time. I didn't laugh out loud though I know I had to control it a little. I told him that was pretty rich coming from him.

We're planning on watching Hamilton tomorrow night as a family (woo hoo Disney Plus!!). The girls are super excited. We were supposed to go on Spring Break to see it, but had to cancel for Covid. Our girls are so, so into it. Wayfinder, if you're reading here, I remember you saying seeing Hamilton was one of the last things you did together as a family before BD, is that right? It has become this huge family thing, the kids listen to it as their sleep soundtrack, they did camping skits with the songs, we listen to it in the car all the time. My daughters know every single word. And a couple of weeks ago when he'd read Shirley Glass and decided to get all the rest of the potentially hurtful secrets off his chest, one was that he has actually already seen Hamilton. Two years ago. With AP. he assured me that he may have seen it with her but she didn't contaminate it for him, it was a special family thing, him with the girls and me. And I'm like... you don't get that both ways. Sorry. now it *is* kind of contaminated for me. I'm just so pissed at him for blowing everything up in our lives, I can't even watch this show now I've been looking forward to for literally years with my kids without thinking of H and AP together on a f-ing date.

Alison, Scout... In/re the trip. I spent some time trying to think if I was being unreasonable. I think I probably am. But I *feel* unreasonable at the moment. I don't want him to take the kids away for five nights. I don't want him to go have fun and pretend everything is A-ok. I'm angry and sad and not really feeling like doing anything to make him happy. The sick, twisted angry part of me would happily live a stunted life for awhile if it meant his life was stunted more. I'd suck it up and play into every horrible image he has of me, if only to prevent him from getting everything he wants. Now I'm being the foot-stomping toddler. Also, I'm pissed because this particular trip was MY IDEA. I'm the one who wants to do it. Now I don't get to go because oh right, my GD H is a d$!khead.

(And this is why I don't like to tend the anger inside of me. I am NOT NICE.)

So... you're probably right. I have no safety issues. no good reasons to say no except I simply don't want to. I probably need to sit with this for a bit because it isn't really setting us up for a healthy co-parenting dynamic, and stepping back this isn't the person I want to be in the long run. But right now I just don't have it in me to be cool with this.

I had a second attorney consult today. She was looser than the first attorney, pretty funny. I'm not sure which one I'd want more in a real situation. But she did say she thought a post-nup would be a good idea if we didn't end up getting Ded right away for whatever reason. And was a bit more open in terms of the breadth of agreements we could make with each other financially, like we could possibly still co-own the house but I would have sole occupancy rights. And if he spends any money on AP it is a credit back to me. So good to continue to have more advice on how to protect myself going forward.
Posted By: wooba Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 11:04 AM
Lol so your H said you shouldn’t be a Democrat and my H told me stop acting like Donald Trump. I am seriously lmao right now. Sometimes these WASes say the most ridiculous things and it makes everything pretty comedic.

I’m so proud of you for not engaging! Yes the not letting him taking the girls on a trip is a bit of control issue for you, but as long as you see that too, take your time to work past it. You are reasonably angry, and it might take some time to get there where you can let that go.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 11:10 AM
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So... you're probably right. I have no safety issues. no good reasons to say no except I simply don't want to. I probably need to sit with this for a bit because it isn't really setting us up for a healthy co-parenting dynamic, and stepping back this isn't the person I want to be in the long run. But right now I just don't have it in me to be cool with this.


This is good, May. You don't have to be Mother Theresa in all of this. You just have to be honest with yourself about your motivations. I don't know if it would be a good idea to say this to your H. To give him some version of, 'look, I know this isn't reasonable and I know you are having trouble with it. There's a part of me that agrees with you, and I wish I was in the position to be in a different place about this, but I am so angry and so disappointed with your decisions that right now, I just can't. I really don't want to be in this place forever and I am working on it.'

I really don't know if that would be a good idea. Part of me thinks he'd take any admission of uncertainty or vulnerability on your part and use it to manipulate you. That he'd position himself as a man of sense and sanity, and you being run by your emotions - and use that to get his own way on everything. And that you'd let him. When in actual fact, you are working on being steady and making progress but you aren't all the way there yet, and he doesn't seem to be even ready to try. Do you think if you did say this to him, and instead of an adult response, which would look something like, 'I get that. This is hard and it isn't your fault it is hard. Let's postpone the idea of a holiday for now and revisit it in six months when things are clearer,' he actually tries to take advantage of your honesty, you would be able to stay firm and assertive in the face of that?
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 12:42 PM
I popped back in here before bed because I couldn’t stop snorting about the Democrat comment and then I saw wooba’s Donald Trump comment... I, too, am laughing my @ss off right now. I hope you are smiling, May!

Just wanted to say that I completely empathise with your feelings. It’s not the same as a week-long trip, but... about three months after BD, X took my S (who was about 18 months old at the time) to his parents place for a family BBQ. It was the first family event where I was not invited. My S was experiencing some separation anxiety at the time, and his dad had been MIA from his life in all meaningful ways since BD, so he had to be peeled, screaming, from my arms. I cried my everloving eyes out once they left (after trying to explain to my little S that mama was very sorry and very sad and wished she could come too but he would have fun and it would all be okay, while X stood there and did nothing to comfort or reassure the baby)... whew.

Anyway. I had a point about acceptance and letting go of control. Consider the difference between boundaries, conditions, and reactions.

Boundary: “I’m not comfortable with the girls being away for that long.”
Condition: “I’m not comfortable with the girls being away for that long UNLESS we are working on the marriage.”
Reaction: “I’m not comfortable with the girls being away for that long BECAUSE you are a lying, cheating sh!tbag.”

Boundaries are based on principle. Conditions and reactions are based on emotion.

All you can do is state your boundary to H. He decides whether to respect it or not. He respects it - cancels or postpones the trip. He doesn’t respect it - sulks or rages or threatens. The reason for your discomfort doesn’t need to be disclosed. Your feelings are valid and don’t require explanation. Alison’s script is excellent if you are working with someone reasonable and respectful. However, at this point, your H uses your explanations as an opportunity to negotiate. And because boundaries are principled, they should never be negotiated, lest you betray yourself.

Act on principle, not emotion. If you can’t disagree with the trip on principle... let them go.

You are an authentic person. You’ll know the difference between the three, intrinsically, because putting forth conditions and reactions will make you feel hollow inside. They may have the desired effect on your H’s behaviour, but it will be a Pyrrhic victory. Conditions are fear manifesting as control. Reactions are anger manifesting as control. If you try to act on principle rather than emotion, you’ll be able to look back on this horrid time with pride in your strength rather than regret for your weakness.

Note: we all have moments of weakness during our marriage crises and they absolutely should be excused due to stress smile
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 03:14 PM
Hello my May, I'm always reading along. Every day, twice a day I check on you. I'm always checking on everybody, but I'm in a weird place right now, and I don't have much to offer other than long distance virtual love and support.

And yes Hamilton was one of the last things we did as a family and everyone in this house is so excited but we likely won't be able to sit down and watch it until Sunday. We have 3 small grill outs between today and tomorrow. Oh yeah I'm a wife in public again at least for now...lol. As to Hamilton though, don't let AP taint this for your girls. Your mood and stress level will be felt by them. You can let go that this a "family" thing if you need to to get through it, and focus on that this is for those kiddos. That this is something they adore. The way they adore each of you. And they'd really like to do this together. Look at this as practice for a life time of events where you have to play nice and get out of your head and chest for the benefit of your babies. Recitals, plays, parent teacher conferences, dances, graduations, weddings. This is all a part of your future if you're on a path to S/D and no time is better than the present to start feeling out how you can handle these things.

As to the trip. The conversation he was being a complete nut job. And I don't know that I would've agreed to anything in that moment either. But I'm with scout and Allison. This has control issue written all over it. And H calling you out on that made you dig your heels in even more. Because girl, trust me in the heat of the moment I would've done the same d@mn thing. So seriously no judgement on that at all, but a little baby pile on 2x4. He is a good dad. He is a safe dad. Two 5 day trips is no different than like sleep away camp. I know it was your idea and you're p!ssed. I know H doesn't deserve your kindness. Or to stay awesome in your daughters eyes, but you can't take away things you know in you're head are wonderful, healthy options because your heart is screaming FFFF***********KKKK YYYOOOOUUUU to H. You can plan a separate 5 day trip with the girls. You can take those 10 days and just scream and cry, and let all of this out with out having to steel yourself around the girls. Or pretend everything is normal. You can pack all of H's stuff. You can rearrange the house. Or go get the puppy and start training. You can do more planning, research and list making about D/S, I see you girl. I know those post-its and binders are calling your name. I would and would've killed for H to have taken the girls and let me process literally any of this with out all of us being on top of each other. This could be a good thing for all of you if you let it be. If there was ever a time to let go and let god, I think these little summer excursions are it.

Last as far as attorneys go, this is based on my experience in courts. Especially in family matters, go with the attorney who makes you feel comfortable and feels familiar. She will see you at some of your lowest moments. She will be there cheering you on when you get what you wanted. All divorce attorneys are bull dog attorneys from my experience. But the serious ones....ugh, we don't like them in court, we don't like them in mediation, and unless they have a super serious client you can always see there's a strain. This stuff is hard and even in the best of circumstances with custody and placement, a house, and, probably a retirement you're looking at spending a year or more with this person. Who can you see yourself talking with weekly for the next year? And who are you going to feel good about paying an ungodly amount of money to for those billable 30 mins you just sobbed on the phone for? That's who you want. They are paid to fight for you. Any divorce attorney will. The question is more, who would you rather be there fighting beside you?
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 06:13 PM
Thanks Wayfarer, Scout, Alison, Wooba.

Wooba, I'd forgotten about that Trump comment. I am smiling about it all now.

On the trip and control thing. Bear with me a minute, I'm going to try to figure some stuff out here and have a few questions.

Scout, I think I'm feeling both the condition and reaction part right now. I'm scared if he goes and has a fun time on this trip (which I know he will) it will just be more evidence for him that D is the right answer. I'm scared if I change my mind it will be more evidence for him that I *will* change my mind on other things and he'll be able to have his fantasy D. I'm scared if I let up even one single inch on this, he'll get his fingers under there and use it to convince me that this is actually all OK, step by step, starting with this five day trip and moving on to a month next summer and ending with being BFFs with H and AP. In the dynamic we have going on right now, where it very much does feel like a power struggle, I feel like I need to hold onto my truths/boundaries/whatever-I'm-calling-them-- or else I'm just demonstrating that he can get whatever he wants if he only badgers me enough about it.

The anger/reaction side says why should he get to do this. F him. I *do* have control over some things and maybe it gives me the illusion of greater control over my life in general to be able to hang onto the threads I have, which include being able to say yes or no to my children going on a trip.

I think I was a little thrown from having the trip morph so quickly from four weeks (a two week chunk followed by two one weeks) into two five-day trips, which you guys are right, are eminently more reasonable. But I'd spent all my energy thinking about a month or maybe two weeks at a minimum and was able to feel comfortable saying no to those, I'd said no to 2 weeks over and over and over throughout our M but have been OK with one week. So him coming back to me with two five days stretches as a proposal is actually pretty reasonable, I know. i am just not sure I am able to be reasonable right now.

In terms of what would happen if I was vulnerable... he definitely wouldn't say postpone the trip for six months. At this point, we have no coverage for the kids starting at the end of July for a month so that was part of all of this. I think I would get one of two answers-- one, he might say thank you for being honest and considering this. Two, he might say something along the lines of "I knew you would be reasonable" which would make me feel like this is all just a slippery slope and i'm just proving he can convince me of anything.

So... I'm struggling with the idea of letting go, making sure I'm really NOT being controlling (and yes, I see that I am here) in terms of dictating what our future Ded lives will look like)-- that feels like DBing. Let go and let god. But also afraid that by letting go of what *I* want or believe for the future, i'll get swept up into his next level of garbage and a year from now telling you guys it isn't so bad to have a sister-wife.

OK. So he just got back from surfing and walked in. Asked me what I was doing, I said journaling and put away my computer. He had some look on his face I couldn't quite interpret. I said, I'm thinking. About what you asked me. This is hard. And I wanted to go on this trip too. And (unfortunately) a tear ran down my cheek.

He said, I know. He put his hand on my arm then took it away. he said, that isn't really fair, because you know I want you to come. that is my ideal for this trip, that the two of us are showing our girls our State, together, as a family. I want any potential future to always include the potential for these kinds of things. But I know that is not something that you are okay with.

Then he said, I know you think we should just go on this trip, and I should let her go, and we can buckle down and work on us. And that is really attractive to me. But I feel like for two years I kept postponing my decision based on short-term things-- I'll just get through this and then I'll deal with it--and I don't know that using the time pressure of this trip is a good idea for me. I'm not ready to make a decision today. I said, when will you ever be ready? He said, I don't know. I'm waiting for some big new factor to sweep in and make it easy. Your anger is a new factor and big. It goes both ways. Part of me thinks if you're going to be a b*$ch why should I want to be with you? But I know that you deserve to be angry and it was maybe strange before that the anger wasn't here, and so maybe it is good in that direction too (I think, meaning if we stay together. He had said in the past he was afraid if he stayed that my rage would come out one day and be terrible.)

I didn't say anything.

Then he said, what if we just spent some time together and each laid out 100% what we are thinking without any interjections or disagreeing or agreeing or anything? Just said everything we are thinking. We could get out a white board and map out a decision tree. (He started to get v enthusiastic). I said, I don't think that is a good idea. I don't want to do your emotional processing for you. That isn't fair. I feel like you just want me to make the decision with you so that you feel less guilty about the decision you make. He said, that isn't it. I'm comfortable with that decision needing to be mine. I just want you to be comfortable with whatever comes after, either direction. I just don't have anyone to really process this with and who knows me better than you? And if we could separate that friends part of each of us from the damaged romantic partner parts of us, maybe we could do it. (Note that he also considers himself a damaged romantic partner because of the SSM.)

I didn't respond. Don't think I'm going to do that, particularly the whiteboarding part (really???) And then somehow this discussion about the trip did morph into a request for, if I'm understanding this correctly, a request for me to listen without judging or interrupting a monologue about everything he thinks which of course would include AP and trample all over my boundaries. So, folks, you see about the slippery slope? While at the same time he wasn't really overt about it. and I don't actually think it was deliberate. Just that I gave him a little glimpse of "May can be reasonable" and his brain jumps immediately to the big thing he wants me to accept.

yet, I know that having an H choose to stay in an M because he is afraid of his W being too unreasonable in a D situation is not what I want, either. And somehow, this post turned from me trying to examine my own fears and insecurities around the trip into dissecting his head again.

Well, at least I don't think he has cottoned onto much of this going on in my head. I didn't say yes to anything. I just told him I was thinking about it and it was hard. I didn't agree to any additional R talks. I just listened, he was respectful in demeanor.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 06:57 PM
Hi May,

((Hugs)) I've been following daily and I'm sorry your journey is going this way.

I give 2x4s in some situations, but you're incredibly self-aware. You realize his offer of two 5-day trips is reasonable (something I'd have no qualms saying yes to if my ex-W asked) and a 30-day trip is not.

I get your point. You were prepared to say "No" to a 14-day plus vacation, so when he offered a 5-day vacation, you repeated "No". You want him to know your "No" is serious when it comes to enjoying OW and having a family life with you. Although, he's sorta doing that now, enjoying virtual contact with OW.

Originally Posted by May
I know that having an H choose to stay in an M because he is afraid of his W being too unreasonable in a D situation is not what I want, either.

You also don't want to be the one to pull the trigger. You want him to choose for himself.

I suspect, in his mind, you or your actions will always be responsible.

Originally Posted by May's H
I'm waiting for some big new factor to sweep in and make it easy. Your anger is a new factor and big.

Have you considered you each going on separate 5-day trips with the kids?

Maybe you take the one you planned and dreamed about first, and then he can do whatever he wants, which probably entails coming up with his own plan because the kids would be bored to do the same thing twice. wink
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 07:06 PM
Quote
I'm scared if he goes and has a fun time on this trip (which I know he will) it will just be more evidence for him that D is the right answer. I'm scared if I change my mind it will be more evidence for him that I *will* change my mind on other things and he'll be able to have his fantasy D. I'm scared if I let up even one single inch on this, he'll get his fingers under there and use it to convince me that this is actually all OK, step by step, starting with this five day trip and moving on to a month next summer and ending with being BFFs with H and AP. In the dynamic we have going on right now, where it very much does feel like a power struggle, I feel like I need to hold onto my truths/boundaries/whatever-I'm-calling-them-- or else I'm just demonstrating that he can get whatever he wants if he only badgers me enough about it.


This is where the good stuff is, May. You are being really honest. A lot of this is about your wish to control what he thinks and feels about you and your marriage, isn't it? I get that. And those urges to control don't come from a place or love, or peace, or self-care - they come from fear.

Being divorced is going to be better for you than this current situation is. Being R'd is going to be better for you than this current situation is. You cannot possibly loose as each step to being a co-operative co-parent, dealing with your own fears, setting clear boundaries and sticking to them and not taking on board the silly nonsense he puts your way is a step towards both divorce and reconciliation: healthy marriages and civilised divorces lie in the same direction. I am almost sure of this.

You will not be driving him away but letting go of the control and holding to your boundaries, you will just be ridding this dynamic of what is unhealthy. The control from fear on your part, the manipulation from immaturity on his. Whether he chooses to stick around for a healthy marriage is up to him - he may very well not - but you can be in control of offering that and nothing else.

I also think you are very wise to be wary of 'giving him an inch' - though the person who decides how far to go and no further is you, and not him.

Just because you compromise on the holiday for the sake of co-parenting does not mean you compromise on the other things - unless you decide to. It's much easier to say 'no' to everything than it is to pick and choose what is okay and what is not (I know this from experience) but if the only thing that is holding you back is what he might or might not think of you, then you can let that go. You decide what kind of conversations you have, what kind of marriage you want, and what kind of divorce you're going to have.

Maybe it would help to separate the marriage from the parenting. If you divorce, you're going to have to do that anyway. You will have to find a way to communicate cordially and fully with him regarding your daughters even if he throws you out and moves his AP in and sleeps with her in the marital bed while your girls are in the living room watching cartoons. That doesn't mean you're going to have to be his friend, like him, approve of him or what he does, spend social time with him, or even wish him well.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/03/20 07:12 PM
I think by making the counter-offer, "If you want a 5-day trip with the kids, I get one first" you drop the unreasonable position without looking like a flip-flopper. You also get a chance to go on the vacation you planned and dreamed about with the kids. He has to plan his own 5-day trip. wink
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 09:02 AM
Thanks, Alison, CW. everyone.

I told him it would be OK for him to take the girls for five days, we'd work it out if need be.

He told me he spent the day trying to figure out how to tell AP he was done. And didn't get an answer. That if he knew how to end it he would and if he knew he wanted to choose AP he would have done it already. He doesn't know what to do.

I said, if you want to go, the kids will be ok. I will make it work.

He said, I have two mental health professionals (his IC and MC) telling me the kids will be fine if we D. I have everyone else in my life (mom, brother, me, I guess) telling him they won't. That they're the most important thing to him and he can't do something that would hurt them.

I repeated. They'llbe fine. I'll work with you. I'll be fine. They'll be fine. He didn't respond. Went to bed and asked me to not stay up too late.

We watched Hamilton tonight and it totally broke me, I'm a mess. When Philip died I started crying and didn't stop. I'm floored that something I've listened to over and over and over can still have that much of an impact to see it on TV. My poor D10 was like "mommy I don't like it when you cry like this" and got me kleenex and then whispered to me if you smile it makes you feel better-- really, it does-- I do it-- try it. Which only made me feel awful. Probably set me up for this conversation. I feel spent.

thanks for being there.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 09:54 AM
I think you handled that really really well May. You were truthful you didn't seek to control and you didn't accept any responsibility for his mess.

I think his response sounds a bit different, doesn't it? He's talking about himself - his problem, his inability to decide, the difficulty this is causing him. I still see no reason you should listen to it, but at least he isn't blaming it on you right now.

I think this limbo has worked pretty well for him so far, but you withdrawing and putting all his mess on his lap and making no threats or promises about the future has caused a change.

You might get more rage / charm / self pity or he might try some other bargaining tactics to spin this out for longer.

Equally, you might decide a man as weak and dishonest and selfish as this is no catch, and pull the trigger yourself.

Either way, the status quo is now over and will stay over so long as you hold steady.

It is painful, but you're on the right track. Take care of yourself. The kids WILL be fine. It's a shame they have such a weak and dishonest man for a father, but perhaps he will turn himself around at some point in the future and the knowledge of what he's capable of will give him humility and compassion that they will benefit from. You can't do anything there. But they have an amazing mother and they are loved. They will be okay. YOU will be okay.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 08:12 PM
Thanks, Alison. This is hard. It would be so much easier if he didn't live here and we didn't spend 24 hours a day together w/COVID.

I had a rough morning. Didn't get much sleep last night and still feel totally drained from emotion over Hamilton (I can't believe how much it affected me) and the conversation where I told H he could take the kids on the trip. Trying to plan an outdoor get together with one of my closest friends, ended up bailing yesterday for a variety of reasons (including H--and me too to be honest, but I blamed it on H to my friend because I just felt like it-- being concerned about social distancing measures as the virus is on the rise again in our area) but locked in something for Sunday that we'd been talking about with our girls for a couple of weeks. She texted me this morning to say hey, needed to let me know that she'd also been talking about this same excursion with three other families, two of whom are being totally terrible at social distancing, wanted to let me know in case H was uncomfortable.

I just felt so sad. All I wanted was the semi-normalcy of hanging out with my friend and the kids and to feel like there were people who were there for me, even when I am not yet ready to talk about this big thing that is tearing my life apart. And now I feel (I know this is just emotion speaking, it isn't really true, but it is how I feel right now) that I don't have that outlet, that H and I are going to be in this lonely, angry, sad capsule staring at each other until one person blinks or there is a vaccine. H said apparently our MC is totally full up, has all these new clients emerging from the lockdown.

And, I can't imagine disappointing my kids who have been talking about this excursion for weeks now. I think we'll go and just try to keep socially distanced-- it is outdoors-- but I'm disappointed in my friend and in the whole country, right now. She's a total social butterfly and it is who she is, and I usually love her for it. But I'm just frustrated right now.

H ordered a bunch of books on Amazon for trip planning. They came today. He showed them to me and I said, cool.

H knew I was feeling sad about my friend and hugged me. He asked me if I was conflating the thing with my friend with the other stuff going on, if I was worried that my friends wouldn't be there for me if we split. I acknowledged. He said you know that isn't true, you have good friends that will always be there for you. I'm the one without any good friends in this city. I said, I always thought you were my best friend. (I know not DBing.) He said, I'm here. Right now, I'm here.

Then he decided to morph into a philosophical discussion of marriage, there have to be so many things going right for an M to work, good friends, sexual intimacy, good roommates, social partners, good co-parents, etc. And then one thing goes wrong and society tells us we have to get rid of all of it. I said, I don't want to talk about this and walked away. (Honestly, the "societal norms" argument makes me so frustrated, I just can't hear it anymore.) He got angry... it isn't cool for you to just walk away from me and brush me off, I understand you have boundaries but that hand wave is rude (OK, probably true, I did do a dismissive wave with my hand in the air). Then he said you're making the choice to throw away all those other things. That is on you. I said, F you, H. and walked away. He then left to go help a friend move.

Guess saying F you and walking away isn't really DB-ing. I very much feel like it is my own business how friendly I choose to be with him after we split and I refuse to be his crutch for not making a decision. Yet in those moments I'm kind of stuck still-- I don't have a good answer that isn't either controlling or a lie. Is it just a calm "I understand you see it that way" and disengaging?
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Being divorced is going to be better for you than this current situation is. Being R'd is going to be better for you than this current situation is. You cannot possibly loose as each step to being a co-operative co-parent, dealing with your own fears, setting clear boundaries and sticking to them and not taking on board the silly nonsense he puts your way is a step towards both divorce and reconciliation: healthy marriages and civilised divorces lie in the same direction. I am almost sure of this.

I was thinking about this, Alison. here's the problem. I don't WANT a civilized divorce with him with her in the picture. I know this is the anger talking but I want a scorched earth, all our friends choosing me and ostracizing him, taking him to the cleaners and he lives a sad and shallow D-bag life in a pathetic small apartment kind of divorce. I guess I'm coming around to the not needing to say or be too awful in person because I don't want to look deranged or have my children see any of that, but in the honest truth I would want to say "direct all correspondence to my L" and wear sunglasses and never make eye contact when we swap out the children. I'm a looooooong way from being OK with a civilized friendly D.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by May
I understand you have boundaries but that hand wave is rude (OK, probably true, I did do a dismissive wave with my hand in the air). Then he said you're making the choice to throw away all those other things. That is on you. I said, F you, H. and walked away. He then left to go help a friend move.

Guess saying F you and walking away isn't really DB-ing. I very much feel like it is my own business how friendly I choose to be with him after we split and I refuse to be his crutch for not making a decision. Yet in those moments I'm kind of stuck still-- I don't have a good answer that isn't either controlling or a lie. Is it just a calm "I understand you see it that way" and disengaging?

May, I see nothing to fault in these actions. He said, "I understand you have boundaries"--then why did he step on them again?! You seem to have been consistent about not being open to discussing OW, helping him make his decision of you vs OW, or his fantasy of You + OW. A rude boundary violation earned a hand wave plus you walking away. A rude second boundary violation earned an F You plus you walking away. You're teaching him you respect your boundaries. You don't owe him listening to those topics.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 08:48 PM
I second CW here. You did nothing wrong. He is taking every tiny chink of your vulnerability and getting his fingers under it - as you said earlier.

And a civilised divorce can be many things. For some, it will be shared Christmases and summer holidays with new partners. With others, it will be the sexy, mysterious woman in the big expensive sunglasses who is utterly unavailable to the man who she used to be married to. You will find your own way. Where you are right now is a station on the way to your destination, not the final place.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 09:13 PM
Thanks CW, Alison. I needed that... a LOT. Reframing the F you as enforcing my boundaries rather than an emotional DB fail helps a ton. smile
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 10:07 PM
Quote
I would want to say "direct all correspondence to my L" and wear sunglasses and never make eye contact when we swap out the children. I'm a looooooong way from being OK with a civilized friendly D.


That is your prerogative, May. Civilised contact IS exactly what you are talking about and you aren’t obliged to give your H one ounce more of consideration. Are you screaming at him in front of the children or smashing his windscreen with a golf club? No? Then you are being civilised. Being friends with a person who betrayed you and endangered your health and destroyed your finances and lied to your children would be a Herculean feat.

Think of marriage in business terms. You literally had a signed contract that your H has breached. You unfortunately have a continuing contract to raise children with the man who committed ‘crimes’ against your ‘company’. Do you have to be friendly with a business partner who embezzled from your company? Or with the mugger who pistol-whipped you and stole your handbag? That would be absurd.

The beauty of the kind of civilised divorce you’re talking about is that it really, truly allows you to make a clean break and heal properly because you can be as NC as possible. Continued friendship or whatever you want to call it will keep you stuck. Some people can make it happen, but your dynamic is far too codependent. Perhaps in the future - once YOU have healed and YOU decide to reach out - you can grant your H the gift of friendship.

And just quietly, I can advocate for the civilised, non-friendly divorce. It works for me and I don’t miss the friendship any more. It is difficult at first to set and enforce boundaries - not coming into the house, no chit chat. I know I came off cold and tense. You have to stop caring about what he thinks of you. When my X first moved out, I wouldn’t be caught dead in less than a full face of makeup, blow-dried hair, nice clothes whenever he came around. Now I couldn’t care less.

Exes who betray us should lose the privilege of having access to our innermost thoughts and feelings.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 10:16 PM
The key thing for you to remember is that NONE of this precludes reconciliation. I think you will let go of your fear once you accept this.

I had another thought on civility that I couldn't add above.

I believe that abusive partners use our inherent goodness and desire to keep the peace as a way to keep us under the thumb. X once lambasted me in a rage for not being civil. He had taken house keys without my knowledge and let himself in. When I expressed my surprise and concern, and asked for the keys back, and let him know he had crossed a boundary, he said "If you want this to be civil, don't start sh!t with me".

Translation: "Let me do whatever I want or I'll retaliate."
Posted By: cardinal Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/04/20 10:23 PM
I too think “That is on you” deserved an F you—he is trying to pass this off on you again! Seriously? Plus, you are human, may, and your H is being a real duck. Yes, let’s say duck, as that is board appropriate. I really empathize with you, may—I’m in a mood today for various reasons and was just thinking about this interview I heard once on NPR—was it a woman who had lost her son? I can’t remember. Anyway, she was talking about grief, and the thing that stuck with me was that she’s learned to live with the waves when they come. That hit me today as I feel I’m in a wave, and I currently don’t want to think about the waves continuing to come for... an indefinite period of time. It’s life, I know. But today I’m missing my best friend.

So, yeah, this Hamilton hangover is real (art can really stir things up!) and maybe you are in the swell right now, but I hope you are able to connect with your friend in some way tomorrow. Looks like I’m offering more commiseration than comfort, maybe because I’m not feeling super DB today. Hugs from one capsule-dweller to another!
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/05/20 02:14 AM
Thanks Scout and Cardinal.

Scout (and Alison) that civilized, expensive sunglasses version of D is really appealing to me. I like it.

Cardinal, thanks for sharing that story. I think it does come in waves. I'm here with you too. The "Hamilton hangover" also makes so much sense to me. (Also, he is a duck. I like that too.)

H came home and I was laying in bed with the kiddos, looking up recipes for tea cakes. (They wanted a tea party). He crashed in and hugged me, and all of us. He drew me aside and said he's decided to end it with AP. That he doesn't believe that he could ever be mentally sane or happy with AP knowing that he might have damaged the children. That she wants kids and the right thing to do is to stop holding her back, let her live her life, and let her go. That he owes it to the children to really work on our M without her in the picture and see if we can make this work. That this continued ambivalence that he's been doing for the past two years is untenable. He can't keep doing it. And if he needs to make a choice he wants to choose the one that hurts the kids the least.

Then he said, I'm really scared. I'm really scared we can't make it work, that I won't be able to get over the SSM and fall back in love with you. I'm really damaged.

I didn't say much. In my head I'm wondering if here I got what I've been wishing for and it isn't really a prize, that he's right, we're dooming ourselves to years of misery and settling. That I'll never really be able to fully trust and love him again. Why are we putting ourselves through this charade.

I said, how would it be different this time? He said, it will be. I will never contact her. I said, how do I know she isn't going to throw a bomb into it like she did last time? he said, I don't know. I'll tell you about it this time. I'm scared. I don't know.

I said, you are saying this right now, you may change your mind and feel differently tomorrow. Let's not rush into anything. I would need to know that this time will be different in order to feel comfortable trying. There is no hurry.

He wants to do the full trip as originally planned with all four of us. I am skeptical. I said I don't know that this is a good idea right now. He said, I need this. I said, you can take the girls, it will be OK. He said, for a month??? Totally skeptically and I was like, oh yeah. Right. That won't really work. I dropped it.

So. I'm just going to let this sit. I'm not feeling happy or enthused about it. I know this is what I said I wanted but I don't know if he is for real, I don't know if this is really the best thing for either of us, I don't have confidence this time will be any different from the last. And yet all along I've kept tight to our kids deserve us trying and we simply can't try with a third party in the picture. We won't know until she's gone for good. And I guess this is a step in that direction.

I don't really want to think about it seriously right now, so I don't think I will. I think I'll continue to focus on me and the girls.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/05/20 10:32 AM
I think focusing on yourself and keeping your course is a good idea, May. Your husband is spinning and is probably going to say anything to get what he wants. This might be sincere, or it might be the 'charm' offensive as rage and self pity and the childish manipulation hasn't worked.

I think all you can do right now is hold your boundaries and understand that for your H words are cheap and meaningless, and it is by his actions that you will know he has committed to the M. Cast your mind over what happened earlier this year, when he refused to block her number, made a song and dance about deleting playlists, and lied to you for months about sleeping with her at their last meeting. You tolerated that in the name of giving him space and relinquishing control over his actions. I don't doubt your motivations were the right ones - but it didn't work.

I don't suggest you give him a laundry list of things he 'must' do to prove his commitment. But I do suggest you watch his actions carefully, and have extremely high standards for yourself in terms of what you will and won't commit to.

In your shoes, I'd expect no less than him telling her, while you were in the room, that it was over and he was never going to be in contact with her again. Total, life-long NC with numbers deleted, playlists gone etc. Full transparency. IC for him and MC for you both, where the matters of his infidelity and the SMM will be addressed in solution focused ways. A consistent respect of your boundaries. I wouldn't tell him he needed to do those things, I'd just be looking out for those actions happening, of his own free will, pretty soon and with enthusiasm. And if they didn't, I'd be assuming that we were in some version of the same 'I'm trying but not really, I'm just saying whatever it takes to shut you up and make sure I get what I want,' and make my decisions based on that fact.

For example - this exchange:

Quote
I said, how do I know she isn't going to throw a bomb into it like she did last time? he said, I don't know. I'll tell you about it this time. I'm scared. I don't know.


is pathetic (of him). If he was really committed to this, he'd have said something like, 'I will make sure she is unable to contact me. I will block all her phone numbers and social media contacts today, in front of you. If she manages to get through that, I will tell you immediately and I will block her again.'

Words are nothing without a plan of action. And the responsibility for coming up with the plan of action is his, not yours.

Even then, of course, there's no guarantee. I know you know that. And I would proceed as if there is no guarantee, no matter what efforts you see him making - which would mean making sure I was as financially independent as possible, had a strong support network of friends and family, impeccable GAL and assertive boundaries and no immediate financial or property commitments that would disadvantage you in the event of a divorce or you discovering he was cheating again.

Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/05/20 12:24 PM
((((May))))

He's still not choosing you. He didn't mention you once as a factor in his decision except to blame you yet again for 'damaging him'. Poor sad sausage.

Your own sadness is palpable in this update, even though you have ostensibly won the pick-me dance (for now, that is, until the next protest or birthday or whatever ridiculous reason for breaking no contact happens).

He wants to do the right thing by AP? What about the right thing by May. He owes it to the children? What about everything he owes you. What about respecting and honouring you enough as the mother of those children, as the wife he vowed to love forever, as a strong and beautiful woman who is deserving of love, to get down on his knees and THANK YOU for even giving him the option to choose?

Brutal honesty time. You are not a positive factor in his decision. You are something to be endured so he can pat himself on the back and tell himself how noble and self-sacrificing he is. "This is what's best for the AP and it's best for the children" - look at Gandhi over here! Everyone's getting what they want except H, so May will have to work harder than ever to prove he made the right choice. That's not exactly going to help with his sense of entitlement, is it?

I'm getting a little heated typing this out, so I'll end before I cuss out your H, and I do apologise if this comes on too strong. I do believe in love and I believe in reconciliation if the proper actions are taken on the cheater's behalf. It could still happen with you two. But not with this weak stream of hot garbage from your H.
Posted By: KitCat Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/05/20 12:46 PM
I haven't a whole lot to offer as I'm in my own sad mess. But, a few observations.

1) He attempt last night was to pull you back to him because he feels you pulling away... he is starting to see loss. NOT, the right kind of loss and as Scout pointed out he is concerned for AP, for his kids, but still tells you he doesn't think he can love you again. Wanting to give you just enough so you won't bail. *** You absolutely should not take him back unless YOU are the priority in working this out.***

2) How much reading have you done on affairs??? Does the term "the valley" sound familar??? If not I would do some reading on it for sure. May he is leaning in more than he is leaning out last night BUT, will that vacillate to the opposite tomorrow? You may also have read about "false starts"??? Maybe if you understood the valley it may help guide your choices/actions.

3) You have a good head on your shoulders. You are thinking 3 steps ahead with an action plan - moving yourself forward on your own. Keep that course but I have no doubt the more you pull away the more he will be drawn back in. Make sure you have a hard line of MUST HAVES and don't back down. His actions need to match his words and needs to show May its all about the 2 of you. Frankly staying to together because it will hurt the kids less is BS. Kids are also hurt when they see indifference or animosity between their parents.

There is potential but don't settle on his terms this time but on MAYS terms. :-)
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/05/20 03:31 PM
May just knowing how your H is I don't think he's trying to suck you back in on purpose. I also don't think he's choosing the married life because he thinks you'll make his life hell. I think for the first time he's realizing he isn't going to get his sadistic little way with his happy little family of 5 scenario. I think he's actually starting to weigh plan a1 and a2 against each other and it's scary. I also think like my H whatever the h3ll is coming out of his mouth at that exact moment is what he truly believes in that exact moment. I think you were right to say yeah but you might not feel this way tomorrow. I think that's the reality here. Right now in this moment this is what he wants. In 2 days it may be something else. Is there any way you can ask him to give you like a 3-5 hiatus on these MR talks? Can you just say I need to think about what I really want to do here. I think we both need to talk to our ICs. I think we both need to just not talk about the MR, the A, the AP, the d@mn trip. Just co-exist for a handful of days and both just think on this. Just so you can get a foothold here, May. And maybe lay out exactly what it is you're going to need and if H can see him self complying with what you need without seeing it as perpetual punishment for "falling in love." I mean I was raised very Catholic so we can break it down into penitence you think that's easier for him to swallow..lol. But he's gotta understand if he's all in he's all in. He doesn't get to control the narrative of how that part of your R history get closed. He opened that effed up chapter. You get to close it if he wants you. And you really need to sit with and decide is risking that he'll change his mind again worth it. Is trying for another 4-6 months worth your time and energy or not. There's so much to unpack here May. Can I come over and tell him to just STFU for like 3 days and learn to process in his head like a normal adult? Thinking of you. xoxoxo
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 01:38 AM
Alison, Scout, Wayfarer, Kitcat... thank you.

I'm really not putting a whole lot into his words right now. I don't see it as a reason to derail the whole-hearted examination of myself, my fears, my anger, my desires, what I do and don't like about my H as a person and a partner. I don't think him saying this (again, by the way... fool me once, right?) should make me deviate for a second from the path I had started along.

Scout, you're absolutely right that he isn't choosing me. I listened very carefully to what he said and tried to record it faithfully for you guys... the absence of me as a reason to stay was obvious. I *almost* asked " what about me" when he was talking about the children being the reason to stay, but refrained as there was clearly no point to saying that. How I felt last time around was well of course he can't look at me that way since his entire brain is taken over with obsession for this other person. Now... I really don't know. I'm trying to channel Wooba and not care.

I honestly don't want to get dragged into a dissecting of his mindset and where he is or isn't right now, leaning in or not... but i will for a second. (Hard to help myself, bad habits die hard.) I think he's confused and angry and sad. He's still angry with me about the SSM. He has taken more responsibility in the last week or so, two separate times has come up to me outside of an R talk and said something along the lines of I love you and I never stopped, I'm sorry I got us into this terrible situation. I know we're here now and we have to deal with it, but I'm sorry I did it. Yesterday he said (later in the day) I know I was put into a situation that made me open to doing this, but I know I made a series of choices to actually do it and I shouldn't have. I'm sorry. So, that was new, I guess. But he is still really caught up in the SSM even if he isn't directly lashing out at me against it. I truly don't know if it is something he'll ever be able to get over.

All of that, though, has to do with him and not me. I need to decide for myself as we move forward if this is something I want to lean into or out of. If I think there is a chance it will work out. If I really want to be saddled with someone who is clearly a bad bet given our history. But is still the father of my children.

We haven't talked about it again. Wayfarer, I think you're 100% right, if he brings it up I'm going to punt until after we each have our IC appointment (Wednesday). I spent today still dwelling on the things that bother me about him and the good things about being on my own. I'm also afraid that if we "try" and it doesn't work, I'll be in a much worse bargaining position about the children and finances... though time with the kids is 100% the most important thing to me, and I know that custody arrangements can be readdressed at any time. (Anyone reading here with experience-- would it count in my favor if I had physical custody of them now if he went to have an R with his AP, it didn't work out, and he came back wanting 50/50? My guess is that the courts would give him 50/50 as long as he is a good dad, wants it, and has a good,safe place for them-- is that correct? or would there be some leaning towards me just because he didn't fight for 50/50 from the beginning?)

Alison, he is totally not committed. I think he's being honest when he says he's scared and doesn't know. I don't think in a million years he'd ever do the break-it-off-with-her with me in the room gig. I don't know that I'd actually want that anyway except to feed my bitter angry control friend inside. I am trying to figure out how much I want him back for him vs. making sure he doesn't end up with her, because of the public nature of that specific humiliation.

Last week, the IC had asked me what I wanted, and I'd said what I'd said all along-- the two of us really giving our M a shot with AP out of the picture. That our kids are worth the shot. To me, you have an affair, you fall in love-- too f-ing bad. You don't get to have a whole new life and relationship built on the sorrow and betrayal of your first relationship. It just doesn't work that way. you screw up, you hurt the people you're closest to, you try to fix it and make it better. If you can't fix it, you need to at least try. And to me, the R with AP is collateral damage. Too bad, so sad. They both should have known better and that R is doomed to fail.

And, the last couple times we talked he did start to say things about not being sure it would be so peachy with her. That while he loves her and how she makes him feel, he doesn't want to get divorced. He's been pushing back so hard against the feeling that nobody (except his IC) truly believes that this is real love with the AP-- everyone acts like it is a fantasy. he is so adamant that it is not. But now that I think I dropped that line, maybe he stopped fighting so hard against it and is starting to think on his own maybe it is just dopamine hits, or has elements of fantasy, and maybe their love wouldn't be enough to overcome all the obstacles of what he'd have to give up in order to be with her.

Now I know that isn't always the case, sometimes Rs start out as an A and they end up blissfully married. But in my world, I just don't condone that and I will never, ever want her to be a part of my life in any way. I know I don't have much control over that-- she very well may be a part of my childrens' lives-- but I don't have to like it and I don't have to be OK with it and I am angry about even the possibility of it. So, I am trying to sift again through my anger and feelings to be sure it isn't my stubbornness and need to win that I would consider "trying" again vs an honest desire to make it work and a clear-eyed belief that there is any real possibility of that happening.

Anyway... just wanted to update you guys on where I am and thank you for caring and chiming in-- it means a lot. I'm going to keep my head down and focused on me. The way the trip is being planned anyway, even if we were to do the whole thing, would be possible for him to just take the kids for a week or two of it so I don't mind him planning the whole thing-- we could very easily go back to one or two seven night trips instead of one or two five night trips, and I could get them and do something fun with them in the off weeks. So I'm not sure it makes much of a difference to me to insist on him planning 5 night trips with the girls as opposed to the whole family vacation. I'm not committing to go on any part of it at this point or for the children to be with him for all of it, but I'm sure I'm OK with them being there for a week, maybe two weeks split.

And on the trip note-- i can't tell you how incredible it is to have you here who will be honest with me when I'm not 100% in the right. I felt it when I told him no about the 5 day trips-- I knew inside I wasn't being reasonable. I texted my friend who assured me I was being completely reasonable. She asked a bunch of questions which made it clear to me I wasn't really being reasonable, even as I answered her questions and she assured me I was.... so being able to come here and you guys saying "May, this is your control thing coming out" was really important to me and not something I'm getting anywhere else, except from H. So.... thank you. I feel so much better about the whole thing now.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by may22
I'm also afraid that if we "try" and it doesn't work, I'll be in a much worse bargaining position about the children and finances... though time with the kids is 100% the most important thing to me, and I know that custody arrangements can be readdressed at any time. (Anyone reading here with experience-- would it count in my favor if I had physical custody of them now if he went to have an R with his AP, it didn't work out, and he came back wanting 50/50? My guess is that the courts would give him 50/50 as long as he is a good dad, wants it, and has a good,safe place for them-- is that correct? or would there be some leaning towards me just because he didn't fight for 50/50 from the beginning?)

Hi May,

Typically the court both likes to avoid dramatic changes for the kids AND work towards 50/50 if the lesser-custody party's willing. If he were at 0% custody and wanted 50/50, I don't see it happening overnight. It's too big a change. The court may begin with daytime custody, transition to every other weekend, then 50/50 over the course of 18-24 months. That's more or less the process I've seen proposed or enacted in the three cases related to my family. He'd get to 50/50 if he consistently pushed for it without breaking any laws.
Posted By: wooba Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 05:28 AM
Originally Posted by may22
I think he's being honest when he says he's scared and doesn't know. I don't think in a million years he'd ever do the break-it-off-with-her with me in the room gig. I don't know that I'd actually want that anyway except to feed my bitter angry control friend inside. I am trying to figure out how much I want him back for him vs. making sure he doesn't end up with her, because of the public nature of that specific humiliation.

May, it is great that you are being really honest with yourself. Take some time and let your inner angry friend calm down. Like you said, the angry you and the zen you might want different things. You have to work through your anger to figure out if you even still want this man in your life.

Originally Posted by may22
Last week, the IC had asked me what I wanted, and I'd said what I'd said all along-- the two of us really giving our M a shot with AP out of the picture. That our kids are worth the shot. To me, you have an affair, you fall in love-- too f-ing bad. You don't get to have a whole new life and relationship built on the sorrow and betrayal of your first relationship. It just doesn't work that way. you screw up, you hurt the people you're closest to, you try to fix it and make it better. If you can't fix it, you need to at least try. And to me, the R with AP is collateral damage. Too bad, so sad. They both should have known better and that R is doomed to fail.

You are right, the two of you should give it all and try to work things out. However, this would only work under the condition that your H is “giving his all.” He should do the right thing, but again and again he’s shown that he has been making the wrong choices. He can have a new life and a relationship built on sorrow and betrayal. He already has one with AP. It does mean that he won’t turn around start making right choices again, but meanwhile your anger and opinion won’t be able to stop him from doing what he wants to do. (I’m sure you already know that.)

Like many have said, there is no rush....you have every right to be angry and bitter. But that is not the place you want to be when you make a decision. And I am only able to be zen because my H is staying away from me. If I were in your shoes I don’t know if I could handle things as well as you have!!
Posted By: BluWave Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 06:07 AM
It bums me out that he can just decide what he wants and you are available and ready. I feel like it should be the other way around. May decides what she wants in an H and partner and he is willing and ready to do anything and everything to try and make it work. That is how I imagine this needs to play out. I know people get piszed off when I say this, but people don't want what they can (walk all over) and have. They deem the person as weak and naturally lose respect for them. He has made other comments that suggest he sees you as needy/sad/waiting for him and he almost thrives on the power of being able to comfort you. Even tho he is the soul reason you have been pushed down. This is what we mean by manipulation. It really makes my blood boil. May, you are the prize. You are the queen! He should be so lucky if you ever consider taking him back at all! And next time he brings up the SSM and I don't know if I can forgive you (wah wah wah) maybe you can put your hand up and say stop, that was a long time ago in the past and we have bigger issues in front of us now. Then exit the room.

Have you ever read advice from the vet Starsky? That man was amazing. He was posting a lot when I started reading here 6-7 years ago and his words were pure gold. He had a way of advising people how to confidently and firmly disengage and put up strong boundaries. He was also very clear on what you need to see/hear before even considering their attempts at recon. If he were still around he would have called your Hs BS and bluffs every time. We don't have anyone like him on the boards anymore. But if you can look him up and find his advice, please do. I recall a female poster named Train and I think he helped her with some similar stuff.

In the mean time, it also bums me out to read how much focus we all put on him. What does he want, what is he doing, will he choose AP or you, he was so sad and fell over and cried, and then he was Mr H & dad, and now hes ending it again because we are 100% doing this for the kids, etc, etc, but really something is missing here. May, a M is about two people that have mutual respect & commitment to one another. He hasn't proven that in almost 3 years. Why does he get to just come and go from you to AP to you as he pleases? What about May?

What kind of H and partner do you want in this lifetime? There is nothing about this man that sounds desirable in any way. I am sorry, but I don't see it. And please know that this is not 100% for the kids. Kids love their parents and would not want them to stay in a loveless M for them -- over time that leads to resentment both ways. Your kids deserve to see how a man should treat a woman (and vice versa) and I don't think this is it.

Can we just stick your H aside for a minute and focus on you? What have you been doing for GAL? What do you want for you and you only? How do you feel about telling him to F off for awhile so you can sort out what you really want in an intimate partner?

Blu
Posted By: BluWave Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 06:24 AM
May, as I proofread my comments I am beginning to wonder if maybe the reason it is so hard for you to focus on you and what you want is in part due to a fear that you could discover it is not actually him and who he is now that you really want anymore ....
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 08:44 AM
CW-- thank you. I feel like if we were in the "conscious uncoupling" type D, he'd want 50/50 time with them, like three/four days and then switch. I've actually put together a schedule assuming school starts again that would give us exactly 50/50 on waking hours (excepting getting ready for school in the morning because that is no prize for anyone) but they'd sleep here with me. I'm pretty sure he'd be amenable to it right now, but I also realize from a legal perspective it would mean 6 nights with mom and 1 night with dad = dad is paying child support to mom as primary physical custodian. I just don't know if he'd go for that if he wasn't feeling guilty.

Wooba, thanks... I think it is all still detach, detach, detach and focus on what I want.

Blu... I think you may be right about not being sure I really want this H any more. I'm not religious but I've always believed marriage is for life and especially for the children, we shouldn't have had them if we were going to get lazy and chuck it down the tubes a few years in. So I'm angry with him for doing that, angry with myself for taking our M for granted, angry with him for being a weak and pathetic man who is unable to make good decisions and can't face the consequences of his bad ones. And then where does that leave me?

Ugh. I've stood for so long on this "I am not going to be the one to pull the trigger" and I still do not believe that I can. But the feeling I had this time when he told me he was choosing to stay was not the same feeling I had the last time, which was hope. This time was like... oh. really? f*$k. That wasn't what I had been planning on.

I've been reading Alison's old threads. One thing that has really struck me is how much her H milked the 'but you threw me out' line, and I realized this is one of the things I'm trying to avoid. I know, know, know he will do this and it will be awful. He may say it to others, he may say it to the children, and I know he will throw it in my face. And I simply don't want to give him that ammunition.

At this point I don't see it as May is waiting for him with open arms. May has her arms crossed veeeeeery skeptically at this point. I'm trying not to even talk about it with him-- he said it and I haven't brought it back up. I spent all morning keying in on the things I don't like about him. We did go hang out with our friends, which was sort of fun, sort of not as I wasn't in a great mood and there were waaaay too many people to be smart from a Covid perspective, even though it was outdoors. I know H also felt out of sorts as he's felt on the outs with my friend's H for a few months, who wasn't super friendly to H today. H gets all insecure about this, said when we got home that he knew they were glad to see me and the girls but just tolerated H, "guess they brought him along again" which is totally him feeling sorry for himself but also a little bit of the bed he made for himself since he's been a bit of a duck (Cardinal smile smile smile ) to my friend's H in the past.

Anyway. It wasn't the greatest day. Once we got home H wanted to work on planning the big trip, the full four weeks, which is turning out to be harder than expected due to Covid restrictions. He wanted my help so I looked a few things up online while he got really frustrated with some things that are still closed. In my head I'm thinking WE DON'T HAVE TO GO (I did say at one point, we don't have to do this. Just because you said to me what you did yesterday doesn't mean we have to do it. we can go back to the 5 day trip idea. He said nothing.) I'm also thinking THIS IS DUMB as he's basically trying to recreate the trip he had planned that was cancelled in a totally different place, whereas if it was up to me, I'd try to start from the other end-- what are the extra cool things we can do this summer HERE that are possible due to the incredibly low tourist volume and can never do again? I did say this to him, which he acknowledged, but there is just so much caught up in all of this for him. I ended up walking away and going to read a book. He apologized for being stressed out and thanked me for helping him. (so again. he isn't irredeemable. And a year ago he NEVER would have apologized for something like this. We'd both have stewed and it would have been tense for the whole rest of the day. This is part of the reason why I'm holding on, I think. There have been significant and positive changes in his behavior ... though of course not in the one, most meaningful way... but it also means that we as a couple and us as individuals are capable of positive change. it makes it harder for me to turn my back.)

Blu, yes. I can absolutely tell him to stop whining about the SSM the next time it comes up. The IC asked me to talk through what I'm focusing on for myself-- both how I've thought about the SSM and what I want now and for the future-- and she's been very clear to me that i've spent enough time working on myself in/re the SSM. it is time for me to stop enabling him and he needs to start taking responsibility and facing the consequences of his actions. By listening to him, validating or apologizing about the SSM, and soothing him he is just avoiding all of that. So I have decided that the next time it comes up more than a mention I will say something along the lines of what you suggest, Blu. So far, if he's said just one sentence, I've said nothing. I've generally tried to be more silent than letting him know what I think.

I still have Scout's questions copied onto my iPhone and journal... what DO I want in a partner and H? what are the values I'm looking for? How do I want to be treated? what unmet needs have I had in the M? I've been thinking on these. Not quite ready to commit them to paper. But they've been on my mind.

Blu, for GAL.. not much, to be honest. Thinking and having some conversations about my potential new consulting career which are honestly incredibly promising and exciting but which I can't really move forward with if I D from H, so that is both GAL at some level and also just making myself feel worse about what is happening. And anger-inducing since H encouraged this over and over and still is, since he doesn't want to actually get D-ed and also doesn't want the guilt of me leaving this dream behind because we're separating, so keeps trying to tell me to pursue it and we'll make it work. (I don't trust this and won't go forward with it if we S).

Self-care-- I got my baby Botox last week. I need to start exercising and sleeping again. I ate a normal amount today for the first time in awhile which I think was really good. I was actually hungry. If I stay in my current job, I have this new opportunity to pursue there that my boss has offered me and I'm actually excited about, which hasn't happened at work for awhile. Spending time really trying to be there for my kids. Reading escapist novels. Seeing friends occasionally, though with one exception I feel fake because I'm not ready to say what is actually going on in my life. Same with my family. (Actually the only family member I've talked to is my MIL who has been amazing.)

Not sure I can tell him to F off IRL but have been trying to communicate it nonverbally. I put a bunch of stuff away in a drawer he'd recently reorganized in the wrong places, because I just don't really care. He got all huffy... I spent two hours rearranging this and you don't even take the time to put the things back where they belong. I said, yeah, too bad I'm not feeling too motivated to give a $hit what you think these days. He started to say something that I think was going to be along the lines of well maybe you should have .... and then caught my eye and shut his mouth.

We also did have a kind of interesting sidebar couple of lines exchanged. H said something while cooking dinner to the effect of he felt trapped in the M and couldn't leave because I wouldn't let him. I said, whoa whoa whoa. i'm not stopping you. you should GO. And he said, thoughtfully, maybe I shouldn't frame it that way. i guess you are just telling me your truths (that I don't want to be BFFs with him, which is forcing him to stay) just like I'm telling you my truths. I said, I appreciate that. And walked away.

Anyway... I am the queen! Right? So much easier said than done. But I think I'm in a better and stronger place than I was back in January, and much more motivated right now to focus on what is best for ME. So my plan is to keep the focus on me, keep working on detaching, my anger and fears, and knowing I'll be OK no matter what. Kids too.

xoxo M
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 08:46 AM
PS Blu, I'll look up Starsky. Thanks for that!
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 12:42 PM
Quote
One thing that has really struck me is how much her H milked the 'but you threw me out' line, and I realized this is one of the things I'm trying to avoid. I know, know, know he will do this and it will be awful. He may say it to others, he may say it to the children, and I know he will throw it in my face. And I simply don't want to give him that ammunition.


This is manipulation on his part and control on your part.

Why does this bother you so much? I guarantee the first thought in anyone’s mind would be “what did you do to deserve that?” and the second thought would be “I bet you cheated on her”. Wives don’t just go around throwing out husbands for no reason. People tend to know what’s up.

Also, unfortunately, it’s likely he’s already been poisoning the well about your character, if not to friends and family, certainly to the OW. Although who cares what she thinks, honestly. Point is, you can’t control what he says and you shouldn’t base your actions on attempting to control the outcome.

As for the kids, it would be a teachable moment about boundaries and consequences. I sense your belief that you’d have to own the guilt for breaking up the family. Please, please do not allow your H to manipulate you into owning HIS guilt. You do not owe it to your children to stay and you don’t want them resenting you later for making that assumption.

Imagine people reacting to “I took my H back after his three year affair.” Now imagine the reaction to “I threw my H out after his three year affair.” I’m doing it now and imagining only applause and approval. There’s no shame in having strength in your convictions if you do decide to leave. The punishment more than fits the crime.
Posted By: AlisonUK Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 01:42 PM
May - I am a little busy right now, so I am just popping in to say one thing. My H still does bring the fact up that I kicked him out and changed the locks on him now and again. He really does! He's also made it into this massive sob story with his relatives, who I have very distant relations with now (mainly my choice, to be honest.) For a while I validated him about this - 'I know that was really upsetting for you,' and it got me nowhere. These days I just tell him the truth, 'Yes, I did - the way you were behaving was incompatible with family life. I'd do it again in a heartbeat if I needed do.' He doesn't like it, and I don't mind at all about him not liking it. I think if you focus on detachment, a lot of these fears you have about what your H will think or not think, or do or not do, will just fade away. I remember - I posted about this - H telling me that his colleagues at work were laughing at how upset I was when we were S. Now I actually doubt this is true, and if it is true, then that demonstrates something pretty unsavory about him and his colleagues, and if I were him I'd want to keep that unsavory fact to myself. It doesn't hurt at all. It isn't even mildly of interest. You will get there. You will. And every single time your H comes out with some of his selfish, chump like behaviour, he's actually helping you get there a little bit quicker - so long as you open your eyes and accept what is really happening and don't make excuses for him. You are on the right track and you are going to be fine.

Go and buy yourself your sexy lady detached sunglasses. And an Audrey Hepburn hat.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/06/20 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by scout12
Why does this bother you so much? I guarantee the first thought in anyone’s mind would be “what did you do to deserve that?” and the second thought would be “I bet you cheated on her”. Wives don’t just go around throwing out husbands for no reason. People tend to know what’s up.

Thinking about this more, it is more about what he can say to me, himself, and the kids. I don't really care if he says to other people "she kicked me out even though I was willing to work on the M" because we all know that an affair is absolutely grounds for kicking your H out. I think it is more the dynamic between the two of us and I get that I'm not looking at this from a place of total detachment. If I was I wouldn't care what he thought or threw at me. That is just not the case right now and just reading through Alison's threads I can see myself there so easily and know it would drive me absolutely bonkers. Especially after I've staked out this position for so many months that our M is worth trying for. Again, I can see a path to change my mind and I 100% give myself permission to change my mind as my feelings change and/or I learn more about my H, his past behavior, his current behavior, his likelihood to change. I'm just not there right now and I can't really fake it.

Originally Posted by scout12
Also, unfortunately, it’s likely he’s already been poisoning the well about your character, if not to friends and family, certainly to the OW. Although who cares what she thinks, honestly. Point is, you can’t control what he says and you shouldn’t base your actions on attempting to control the outcome.

I don't think this is true, tbh, excepting to OW and I don't give a $hit about what she thinks. I know he has presented the SSM as evidence of wrongdoing on my part to those he has spoken to about it (parents, brother, one friend) and I think they've all been like ouch, that isn't good, but doesn't justify what you did. (This has been troubling to him as I know he assumed they would all be shocked and horrified on his account, maybe because he's spent two years only telling the AP and IC about this and AP fed it and IC is an echo chamber, quite skilled at validating.) I think I've mentioned before he's said if I need to tell people about the A he'll have to tell them about the SSM to which I'm like, be my GD guest. I don't care if people know that. It is true. It doesn't excuse a single whiff of what you've done.

In terms of not being able to control what he says... Yes. I know this. In terms of basing my actions on attempting to control the outcome... I'm still not 100% there. Yes, I see I should be making decisions in the best interests of me and the girls. Yes, a part of me feels like H is a bad bet and so I'm better off without him. I still am not there for the children. I hear you all saying they'll be fine. Are their lives better off with me and H in an OK M vs separated? Can I be the best mom I can be while going through this trauma? Will it ever end? If I do decide to stay and work on the M and he does as well, what does that look like and can I actually *do* it? Let alone knowing that H would have to be just as invested in the process, which he isn't at this point. I know that I had difficulties within a couple months when he broke it off with her last time, of not feeling like my needs were being met because H was still feeling so sorry for himself. Maybe in writing this I'm starting to convince myself that there is no path forward together until he can 100% own his own actions and commit himself to fixing things, which isn't where we are right now. I don't know. At this point, just trying to keep focused on myself and a lid on my feelings, avoid R talks until at least we both have a chance to talk to our ICs.

I think there is more than I have wanted to admit about not wanting people to know about all of this. It is just such a sad, f-ing cliche to have my 40 year old H go and leave me for a much younger woman. I'm really, really angry about that. I think I need to better understand why I'm so much angrier over the actual leaving than the cheating. I can't explain it, but it is true.

Alison, in your thread recently you were talking about the trauma of the actual S, knowing that one or both of you could exit the M-- somehow making that all real feels really scary to me. Also, I know (as you've said, Scout) the S or even D doesn't necessarily preclude R down the line. But I'm having a really hard time grasping that. I think as soon as he leaves and it is out there WHY I just can't imagine ever wanting to be with him again. Maybe that is part of the reason I'm pushing him to make the decision himself-- it gives me the ammunition I need internally to cut ties and move on. Whereas if I kick him out, it makes it more like something we chose together and maybe could potentially choose to reconnect? And I don't want to leave that hanging out there if we split? And still, the act of walking out the door and leaving me for OW is still so rage-inducing for me. Maybe I'm just trying to avoid that situation at all costs.

I'll go buy those sunglasses-- I have a gift certificate I can use and am excited about imagining myself as the cool, collected, unavailable woman. I also am still looking at puppies (which H knows). I just got to the part of your old threads where you got the puppy earlier than agreed upon by your H and it cracks me up as I know my H would behave in the exact same way. He is watching me so carefully about the potential adoption of a puppy. I found a super cute one this morning in a mix of two breeds I've been talking about and it was soooo cute. I've told the kids we're getting either a puppy or two kittens in September.
Posted By: IronWill Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 12:02 AM
Hey may -

Just in case you weren't aware or no one has told you lately, you're a very strong person. Take a breath, focus on you, and don't forget to be kind to yourself.

Also - one more thing:


Who cares what he thinks?



Stay strong - you got this. smile
Posted By: SamCal Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by may22


I think there is more than I have wanted to admit about not wanting people to know about all of this. It is just such a sad, f-ing cliche to have my 40 year old H go and leave me for a much younger woman. I'm really, really angry about that. I think I need to better understand why I'm so much angrier over the actual leaving than the cheating. I can't explain it, but it is true.


What has your IC said about this? What do you think that anger stems from? In my previous M, I kept a lot of things under wraps about what was going on (alcoholism/abuse), because I was both angry at him for misleading me about who he was and embarrassed for me; embarrassed that I made a bad life investment, concerned it'd reflect poorly on me - but ultimately, it actually had nothing to do with me, and I think that is the case here. You have every right to be angry. Just know that it's OK to feel that way, and that his actions are a reflection of him, not you. You aren't defective. I don't get the vibe that you feel that way, but wanted to chime in just in case. Maybe anger because you now have to change the future you'd envisioned for yourself, and that isn't fun? You are having to mourn all kinds of things right now.

My heart goes out to you. I know this is hard, and I am sorry that H isn't making it any easier.
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 03:07 AM
Thanks, IW... that means a lot. I am feeling like I'm frustrating you guys by being so slow to detach and deal with all of this. I feel like if I was in your collective shoes I'd feel the same. There's just a lot to parse through. And now that I'm starting to let myself feel angry, I feel a little taken over by it sometimes and needing to be sure I'm seeing what is real and not what my angry friend inside wants me to think. Anyway, who does care what he thinks?? Yeah!!!

SamCal, I need to bring this up with my IC this week. We talked about it briefly but didn't dig in. I really don't think, though, that he is a 100% a-hole. I don't think I made a bad choice in marrying him, and we had a lot of really great years together. However, I am really mad now that he's making me (maybe) be divorced. I need to understand why I am so against the whole idea so that I can understand how much that is driving me vs really thinking that this M may be salvageable if only he really wanted to salvage it. There are a lot of logistical things too, my job, travel, finances, etc that I want now or had always counted on that will no longer be possible in a Ded situation. So I'm grieving the potential loss of those things and dealing with the anger and unfairness there too.

And. This would be so. much. f-ing. easier. if. he. was. a. d!ck (Cardinal--duck smile ). all. day. long. Too bad he isn't the raging narcissist as that would be cake in comparison. He's fully into charm with a hint of self-pity mode. He actually listened to what I said yesterday about it being dumb to approach this trip the way he was doing it, let go of the elements that were borrowed from the original trip idea, and spent the whole day researching and booking hotels that he knows I would like. I've stayed non-committal about the whole thing. No R-talks.
Posted By: scout12 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 03:38 AM
You're not frustrating us. This is your journey on your terms and your timeline. We're just the Greek chorus slash cheer squad slash armchair psychologists smile
Posted By: may22 Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 03:40 AM
Scout... I really heart you. smile
Posted By: HopeCA Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 04:20 AM
Originally Posted by may22
Thanks, I am feeling like I'm frustrating you guys by being so slow to detach and deal with all of this. I feel like if I was in your collective shoes I'd feel the same.


I have had this thought many, many, many times when I’ve posted here. Firstly, if that’s the case for you after you’ve been here less than a year, imagine what everyone must think of me 2 + years later! Secondly, In all seriousness though, nobody feels that way. Scout is right, most people read along/comment with situations with only pure intentions, otherwise why bother? Lastly, one day while having those thoughts about what everyone on these boards must think of me, I stopped suddenly and realized that those worries were more likely a reflection of what I was thinking about myself.

/
Quote

And. This would be so. much. f-ing. easier. if. he. was. a. d!ck. all. day. long. Too bad he isn't the raging narcissist .


YUP. I feel this so much. If my WAH has been nothing but a d!ck/cold/angry consistently this whole time, I know I’d be a lot further along in my detachment process. I don’t think that’s a coincidence or an accident in my situation, and I don’t think it is in yours either. They do that on purpose. They are “nice” for many reasons, and one of them is to try and keep us where they want us. I know that helps fuel my anger, maybe it will help yourself too.

xx
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 04:49 PM
You're not frustrating in any way. He flipped the script on you in the 11th hour. That is just beyond unsettling. Honestly it's like being betrayed twice. So don't worry about all that.

I did stop by to talk a bit about the p!ssed off at the leaving vs the actual affair. I wrote what's below back in January. Maybe it can help you sort out where you're at. I was never as upset as people here or IRL think I should've been about the affair. Abandoning me and our marriage and our kids because he was too stupid or stubborn to face his issues head on that, that upset me.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
What drives my anger, my sadness, my hurt, my swings, my inability to detach, is the stranger that I'm living with. He engages my fear, my insecurities, my childhood and past relationship issues. He took the one thing in my life I thought was safe. The first home in my whole life I've felt completely secure in and burnt it to ashes, and has the audacity to look me in the face and say "I just don't think we can make each other happy. I just want us both to be happy." When only a few months ago we were half naked on a beach drunk and couldn't get enough of each other. What's killing me is him making me feel like the last 7 years of my life were a complete lie. Like our entire relationship up to BD was all in my head, like a silly little school girl. With that, his vilification of me, his rewriting of history, his constant pendulous swing from her to us, living his life as if he isn't married, but when I say "hey just let me know if you're coming back tonight don't want to not set the alarm and leave the lights on if you're not" and his response is "I'll be home." Home. HOME. He'll be home. How are you out there living like I don't exist? Like I'm not home with a child that I didn't birth while you do as you please, but still call the place we sleep your home? That right there is why I struggle to detach.


I also wanted to mention that I've dealt with the same thing you've dealt with of how much easier this would be if H was a "duck" (god I love that cardinal..lol) all the time. I see how hostile and combative some of these WS/WAS are and I think well that would've been easy. And maybe it's charm for the sake of charm, and maybe it's them being themselves for just a little peek but I think it makes everything harder when you see who you thought they were.

It's ok to be just absolutely livid right now. It's ok to be not so perfect at detachment. It's ok to be a little all over the place. It's ok to be hurt and angry about things that don't make perfect sense on the surface. Everything your feeling is perfectly ok. I think all we ask, is there's a little more focus on May's survival and a little less on H's 3 ring circus. Not because you're frustrating, because you deserve it. You deserve the focus.

Thinking of you often xoxoxoxo
Posted By: job Re: Moving On Rather Slowly - 07/07/20 06:50 PM
may,

You are not frustrating anyone who is reading your postings. Try to remember, it will take as long as it takes for you to get to the other side. Some get there quicker and others need to take things a bit slower. Please do not compare your journey w/others when it comes to detaching because each and every person has to deal w/their grief in their own way and on their on time schedule.

Take however long it takes for you to get to the other side...this is a marathon and not a sprint and you are further along than you think.

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