Previous thread:
HereMy goal by the end of this thread is to end limbo, and I'm strongly leaning towards D. I'm moving my last post below under the line as my thread was nearly full.
I'm 99% sure W lied about going to IC. She's her own person with her own free will and doesnt have to go. The problem is lying to me about it. Its unnecessary and if it is a lie, its probably a manipulation to keep me from filing for D. I'm not ok with being used.
All, I want to file and have wanted it way more than not the past couple months. Its the kids stopping me. I love seeing them everyday. Hearing them while I'm working. Having all this extra time with them as they are home with me. If I D, they go to daycare and there is just so much less time in the day with them, not to mention losing them a week at a time. Is my temporary time with them now worth the energy and financial drain from W. Is it worth having strangers raise my kids because my W wont meet any of my needs. If I ever date again, it would be awhile from now so its not like my relationship needs will be fulfilled either way. The kids do continue to see a dysfunctional marriage daily but if I D, they may never see a functional one as it is. I resent my W for her part in putting us here. Moreso for putting this decision on me to make. I see why she cant make it herself. Just dont get avoiding working on anything. My wants and goals are out of alignment against my will and I can't realign them without making a move. I'm ashamed to even think about Ding to put my happiness above the kids. They are fine in this sitch. Im the one who isnt. How healthy will their dad be with a vampire siphoning his energy however. For my own health and for my kids in the long run, I'm going to D. I'm going to have one last chat with W after I receive my protection device about counseling or D. If she chooses D or more time, I D. I'm taking control back of my life and not sacrificing for someone who gives me nothing. Cooking a few meals a week and talking occasionally is not a wife or partner.
Previous essay:
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U, I forgot to mention thank you for your post on anxiety. It's a beast. It's part of me and I accept it. Managing it is the fun part. When things are going well, its an amazing tool which turns in to excitement and can drive you forward.
All, I spent time the last few days just thinking, visualising and reading a book called Mindful attraction Plan. In that book, they suggest taking a personality test to uncover more about yourself. I did and well, my root personality is that of someone with anxiety, whom wants stability, is trustworthy, reliable yet suspicious. Alot of it resonated well, as does my myers briggs results. Anxiety and stability is part of my core. Who I am. No amount of therapy or medicine can change my personality. It can be managed and directed towards something positive which Ive done in the past and when thats happening, I'm flowing and excited. Like having caffeine for the first time in a month.
I thought, if I had billions of dollars in cold hard cash, no need for a job, what would I do and what would I want. Well, I'd want stability, as much time with my kids as possible and a loving woman to join me in day to day stuff and occasional vacations, as well as live in a foreign country for a few years. I'd like to give back to the community by cleaning up ruined areas and help others going through a tough time.
Here's the conflict...the loving woman part, living in a foreign country and as much time as possible with the kids. I'm holding on for all that to be possible still yet even if we fixed the M, I dont think W will ever be the woman she was that I fell for.
My IC basically said the same thing as Ginger, which Ginger spelled out nicely.
I'm losing part of myself living like this and I'll probably be better off alone 50/50 with the kids.
Wayfarer, I get your POV on recording in a private location. It is awful and same as filing for divorce, it will cross my comfort zone and put me in the land of what I deem not ok. I also dont like hitting people in the face but I'll do it in self defense. Thats what this is. No I wont save every little conversation. The point is to have evidence to cover myself if a false allegation occurs. The consequences of a false allegation are way worse than crossing my own boundary. All it takes is for her to call the cops, get me in jail with no evidence, just her word and I need to spend thousands to prove my innocence. Its legal here to record and if it wasnt, I'd still rather face those fine then lose custody. My attorney told me to "be very careful" after filing especially if I deliver the news.
LH, my confusion/mixed signal is her actually making a fathers day gift for my dad, who was fired when I was. A homemade blanket from a team he likes. She finds me multiple times a day to talk, even when I'm alone in my room. Im guessing I just need to tell her to give me space if I want emotional space.
Wayfarer, on the topic of who I'll be on the otherside of this, I say I don't know as the futures unpredictable. I know who I want to be, but I'm going with the flow, a step at a time. This will make me stronger, more focused. I'm not spending too much energy getting in to that unknown, only just on what I want and whom can achieve those things.
What W disagreeing looks like to me is what she chooses it to be. I dont control it. If youre asking the ideal I'd like to see, it would be to actually listen to my side, for example by pausing to think about what I said, then telling her take in her normal voice. Just be to listened to is all I ask. If her disagreement is logical and makes sense to do, then I'm for it. Right now its like shes full of masculine energy and just wants to challenge everything, aggressively. Maybe its her trying to be assertive. Right now its like a former friends I had, who always tried to be in charge, and disagreed with everything. If it wasnt his way, then he wouldnt be a part of whatever it was.
Wayfarer, As far as how I'd feel if W called out my anxious behaviors, I dont need to think about how it would feel. I know it. Everyone or her friends and family knows it as she told everyone my problems and I didn't hide if something bothered me. She would directly attack me or be unsupportive when I had anxious episodes. With her attacks for one she says that she's sick and two, I helped her when she had them, being kind but not "nice". In regards to your friend that basically ignored their roommate for months, that's easy to do. I did that when I lived with a tool as well. My current roommate is the mother of my kids and the kids really should she some peaceful adult interaction and theres constant interactions of kids asking for mommy or daddy. Both kids are taking medicines and we have to make sure we dont double up doses on accident. Talking about grocery shopping to limit trips and virus risk. It just doesnt seem right to cut her off for the kids sake. I mostly bring up "business" only, she's seeking me out over non business stuff.
This was hilarious "Your idea of harmful is my Tuesday afternoon with 2 teenage girls in the house. I am bursting at the seems with passive aggression". I'm sorry for the struggle. I still don't want to hang around while eyes or rolling or there are sighs from my roommate. My daughter sure, I'd validate her feelings then let her know I dont appreciate the gesture. I do think if I had more tolerance for my W, I'd be less put off and closer to what you're telling me. As it is now, I generally dont care about her moods, she's been in one for years and its toxic. They still affect me but I'm not caring anymore if it makes sense. Rereading this, Clearly I have resentment here to look at.
C,
Let me start off by saying I am not anti you filing for D. I think when it comes down to it though it is all about your anxiety and you think filing for D will relive it. I promise you it will not. If you want to put your kids first then do it. Trust me right now if you guys are not fighting then they will have no idea you are in a dysfunctional relationship.
You have the opportunity to man up and be the rock for your kids and not let the vampire bring you down.
I respect your decision either way. Try to have the conversation from a place of love and compassion and not hate or aggression.
Good luck!
Not only will filing for D not resolve your anxiety, but I would suggest not making a D decision at all until you can reduce your anxiety levels. Otherwise your situation, no matter what direction it goes, will eat you apart.
LH and U are absolutely right.
Filing for D will not relieve your pain or anxiety. That is what is called the "illusion of action". If I do A, then B will happen.
Is your home situation fairly calm? Is W fighting you all the time? Or are you somewhat cordially cohabiting?
I think the reason you are so stressed is you feel you have to make a decision right away. You feel as if there is some sort of deadline hovering over your head. Why do you think that is?
You don't have to decide anything, you know. You actually have the control here. What is it YOU want to do? Not W, not to fix the MR. But you, yourself - what does Core want to do?
You could take this time to learn how to calm your anxieties and fears, spend tons of extra time with your kids, and focus on your own self improvement. You could let W alone to figure out her own business while you figure out yours.
The future is unwritten. Living there, projecting your current situation into the future is pointless. You dont know what will happen. Neither do I, and neither does anyone on this board. As an example - did you really think a year ago that we would all be on lockdown due to a pandemic? I sure as [censored] didn't see that one coming lol
Take some time, Core. Think about what you want to do.
Take care, man
Let me start off by saying I am not anti you filing for D. I think when it comes down to it though it is all about your anxiety and you think filing for D will relive it. I promise you it will not.
Not only will filing for D not resolve your anxiety, but I would suggest not making a D decision at all until you can reduce your anxiety levels. Otherwise your situation, no matter what direction it goes, will eat you apart
I'm with you that D wont relieve my anxiety. It may give me a better life though which means less stress, more energy and more time to heal from anxiety. I can reach for my goals that W is blocking instead of sitting in this limbo.
If you want to put your kids first then do it. Trust me right now if you guys are not fighting then they will have no idea you are in a dysfunctional relationship.
I wonder if they will eventually. D4 had a dream where W and I kissed each other and then gave her a bunch of kisses. Dreaming of a normal family unit. Its probably easier on them if we D when they are younger.
You have the opportunity to man up and be the rock for your kids and not let the vampire bring you down.
True
LH and U are absolutely right.
Filing for D will not relieve your pain or anxiety. That is what is called the "illusion of action". If I do A, then B will happen.
Is your home situation fairly calm? Is W fighting you all the time? Or are you somewhat cordially cohabiting?
Things are calm, we haven't fought in awhile. This is honestly the calmest we've been as a couple since her personality shift a few years back. If we added in intimacy and love, this would be a healthy home.
I think the reason you are so stressed is you feel you have to make a decision right away. You feel as if there is some sort of deadline hovering over your head. Why do you think that is?
That was the stress for awhile. Its the instability now. Check out Maslows Heirarchy of needs. My "needs" on this scale are disrupted near the bottom of the pyramid. My IC quoted this as well when mentioning I need a safe space to heal. One minute I'm here planning my departure, the next I see wedding photos on the wall. One minute I'm detaching from W, the next she says "you can come out with me and the kids". She actually wanted help on a short trip and thats how I was asked. I cant trust this person.
You don't have to decide anything, you know. You actually have the control here. What is it YOU want to do? Not W, not to fix the MR. But you, yourself - what does Core want to do?
Sadly I want to D her and move on. I want to start the next phase of my life. If D can take a year, its just that much longer living with no intimacy and living in a stuck situation. It pains me to write how I truly feel about W for the world to see here. I'll say that I'm distant emotionally, physically and spiritually and I dont want to close that void. I prefer it now.
You could take this time to learn how to calm your anxieties and fears, spend tons of extra time with your kids, and focus on your own self improvement. You could let W alone to figure out her own business while you figure out yours.
This is my MO for the time being, I just dont want to spend too long here. The stress eats at me, my work performance is lowering and I can feel myself getting dumber by the day. I did soul searching and what I cherish the most besides my kids is stability. If one of my inner most wants is off, im not sure how well the anxiety battle will go. If I got hit by a car, its like putting a band aid on my scratches while leaving a gaping bleeding gash in my leg.
The future is unwritten. Living there, projecting your current situation into the future is pointless. You dont know what will happen. Neither do I, and neither does anyone on this board. As an example - did you really think a year ago that we would all be on lockdown due to a pandemic? I sure as [censored] didn't see that one coming lol
The futures exciting, it means change and growth. End of current problems, beginning of new ones. Cant predict it but Im ready for it.
I'm pretty my W made up going to counseling. I see no purpose in that. Dont go or do go but why lie. All this energy thats put in to bread crumbing could be utilized way better elsewhere.
I meditated for about 1.5 hours yesterday to think about what I want. In the beginning stressors presented so I got in the mindset of abundance. If I had no debt, all the money I needed, no need to work and have all sorts of stable women desiring me, what would I do with my life? What would my hobbies be, how would I feel, would there still be anxiety, what would I spend on, where would my time go, what would I do with my sitch?
I'm pretty on point with myself already, my answers were mostly to enjoy my kids, my current hobbies, give back to the world with love, clean up litter and help people. Solve problems. Where I cant meet my remaining purposes and desires is in hold because of W. I want a loving partner to spend time with. If I could have 40 women or 1, I'd rather one close intimate partner. I want to remove my debt but I can't as we need the money to survive post D. I want to travel but cant as I'm at risk of the family courts. I cant have a close intimate partner as my current one is on the dang moon and I dont want to send a rocket to bring her back. I'm gone and shes gone. I want my life, I want to aspire and work towards the wants that I yet to have. I want to live in an uncluttered house. Her stuff is everywhere and I'm sick of moving it and the kids deserve a clean environment. I want my house and my space.
C,
Here's the thing Core if you become the man you described then I guarantee you would attract your W back or if she filed you wouldn't care because you would find someone better.
I am curious that you say your stressed but things seem really calm right now. What are you stressed about?
Core, I often tell LBSs, it is perfectly legit if and when you've had enough to move on, file for D, and go out and live an awesome life! I had a date set in my stich. If that date came and she was still not committed back to the MR, I was going to file for D. No one can blame a LBS for getting to that point.
My only caution is to ONLY do that when you are ready to be D'd. Do not do it (as LH says) to relieve pain. Do not do it as a final wake-up call for the WAS. Only do it when you are ready to move on in life without the WAS, and you are ready to end the MR.
I also only advocate it IF, IF the LBS has done all of the work on themselves. As the bald Texan TV therapist says: earn your way out. Otherwise you will have unresolved emotional baggage that you will carry with you UNTIL you deal with it.
My only exception to the above is in certain cases where the WAS/WS has moved out, and is in a R with an AP that they are open and unabashed about. I hate seeing LBSs sit idly by, stuck where they are at, when the WAS has moved on and is not even willing to consider R. I don't think this is your sitch. Typically, LBWs have more problems with this than LBHs do.
LH,
If I became the man I described, I wouldn't want her back. I don't want her back, attraction is diminished.
Its stressful being openly lied to and being taken advantage of. Its stressful having her lie to friends and family about me. It's stressful living in a cluttered home (picture a calm version of hoarders, thats her areas). Its stressful hearing teenage girl huffs and puffs over tiny things. W spends money daily on nonessentials adding to clutter and depleting money that could go to kids college. I am stressed that I cant live my life how I want to. For example, Ive been selling my possessions on eBay for years to take out chunks of the mortgage. I cant do that anymore as she'll now get half. I'm stuck until I make the move and not moving forward in life, sitting stagnant stresses me.
My only caution is to ONLY do that when you are ready to be D'd. Do not do it (as LH says) to relieve pain. Do not do it as a final wake-up call for the WAS. Only do it when you are ready to move on in life without the WAS, and you are ready to end the MR.
I also only advocate it IF, IF the LBS has done all of the work on themselves. As the bald Texan TV therapist says: earn your way out. Otherwise you will have unresolved emotional baggage that you will carry with you UNTIL you deal with it.
I'm ready to D for me. Not as a wake up call or last resort but for me and my future. I plan on waiting a bit longer for covid to pass but I'm ready. I'd prefer her be the one to file but thats probably not going to happen while she's comfortable in the sitch. Until then as you mentioned, I'm going to earn my way out.
What I'm doing currently and continually working on:
Physical - walking 5 days a week, weight lifting 3x, stretching 1x. Slowly reintroducing caffeine. Continuing to stay off alcohol. Cut non fruit/veggie sugar to about 10g/day. Cut out soy (slight allergy and estrogen forming). Taking 5htp, fish oil, ACV, morning breathing exercise 7x, physical play with kids all the time.
Intellectual - reading Mindful Attraction Plan, posts here, learning a foreign language, watching content on stoicism, frame, attraction, anxiety, learning new job skill, teaching D4 basic math, discontinuing Hold on to your nuts for now.
Emotional - posting here, continuing IC, mediation 3x, self hypnosis 1x, Power of now queued up to read, visualization exercise in the AM about 3x, talking with friends and fam more frequently than past 4 years or so, fighting to keep up abundance mindset, postponing PMA.
Spiritual - majorly lacking again.
Vision - decided what I want in life. Pursuing those I can without putting my future at risk due to my sitch. Spring cleaned attic and basement, moving to garage next, consolidating and pricing my valuables for sale after D to pay off attorney.
I have some thoughts to the source of my spinning. It's a battle of two belief systems.
Set A: Fight for marriage till the bitter end, kids need two parents in one home, god is pro marriage, W can be forgiven, you love w and are attracted to her most times just not at the moment, divorce will cause shame, life will be worse after.
Set B: You're holding on to a dead marriage, W forsake god and the marriage-this makes it ok and advisable to D, you dont love her and arent attracted to her-did you ever?, the kids are worse off the longer this lasts, divorce will help to achieve goals and thus happiness, you cant forgive W, life will be better after D, W doesnt deserve you and you deserve better, if Im only holding on for the kids then there is nothing worth saving.
Reality is probably inbetween these two however I keep trying to pick one mindset or the other. My former snooping is for confirmation that im making the right choice. My previous check ins with W are to help me validate my choice. My search for whats she's doing right and wrong are to reinforce both beliefs. Such is my mind right now. I can see a grey middle at times but I dont want to, because that makes this harder. Theres a nagging belief still telling me I'm wasting my time. If W comes back, why would I want her, what value does she bring? Besides physical benefits, I dont foresee much and that su**s to say. She hasnt been supportive or loving in years, I think that is who she is, not the woman who appeared the first few years. I'm starting to wish I didn't disrupt the EA and she continued with wanting the D. If she filed in Sept, I'd possibly be D'd and moved on to supporting just myself and the kids. Those last few lines are just venting and journaling. I'm hitting the weights today and trying to squeeze in my weight goal. I'm close with just a few days left.
Core ~
Comparing A vs. B is a fool's choice. Both mindsets are flawed, there are so many cognitive distortions in your lists. Life will be worse after, kids are better/worse off, you never loved her, you deserve better, why would I want her, she's not supportive, on and on and on. These are all not helpful thoughts.
Regardless, I don't think this "Pro/Con" comparison analysis works well for complex life decisions anyways. It's so hard to stop doing it. Your brain is used to it's pre-wired patterns for dealing with life. Trust me... forget your MR for a minute, your happiness depends much more greatly on how you approach life going forward.
I guarantee you that your decisions will come more naturally when you FEEL they are right than if you keep using your brain to obsess over them. My anxiety regularly hit 8s and 9s in the last year. This sh*t is HARD. When you feel like your anxiety is down at a 2 or 3, and you feel confident in your decision making -- trust me, it is the best feeling in the world. Your brain will thank you for it =)
Also... what makes you think "divorce will cause shame"?
It's been a good couple of days. Held and maintained a PMA and mindset of abundance for a few days. This morning I met with a friend whom helped me early in the sitch and we talked about what happened and whats happening. I limited myself but it was still enough negativity and lack in my strength to stay in my PMA. My fault. I'm working to get back in it and have more frame work to do. Thus the reason for my post today.
I started just saying whatever I want and having a IDGAF attitude. W has engaged me several times the past few days in friendly teasing banter, following my lead. Its been fun. I'm not expecting anything from here nor is this drawing me in, I'm just having a good time in the poor situation which I am at least half responsible for getting myself in. After playfully mocking her a bit, she ending up bringing me dinner while on a teleconference. It was barely even poisoned. Being a dumb A and non caring really makes life easier. Not sure how i forgot that!
I identified more energy sucking things in my life which are next to changed, my car has an airbag recall, house needs maintenance, I engaged back with W about politics...no win there and I let a low energy person suck me down instead of detaching or pulling them up.
Its been boiling how here. I exercised outside in just some shorts and had two women rubbernecked. One while driving which was funny and frightening. It made me feel good which identifies that I'm still seeking validation. Glad my fitness is paying off, I just gotta catch up on the emotional. Im lessening my time around the kids as Ive felt like I need to give them as much time as possible. Im turning it around so its not from neediness. The time i spend other than standard parenting, is from a play of fun and enjoyment whether they engage or not.
I finished another book and am moving on to another. I'm going to hit all my goals i set to hit by june 30th except my weight goal. I slacked there and should've weight lifted and ate more.
I read May22s interpretation of a spouse with a LD. My W could've wrote that post. Interesting to see the other side and alot of it is what I thought the LD spouse may feel. Its sad on both sides. So many of us wait so long to address our issues. Such is life as a human.
On to some time with the kids and finding heavier things to lift for my Q3 goals.
Comparing A vs. B is a fool's choice. Both mindsets are flawed, there are so many cognitive distortions in your lists. Life will be worse after, kids are better/worse off, you never loved her, you deserve better, why would I want her, she's not supportive, on and on and on. These are all not helpful thoughts.
Thank you U. I've found choice C again after your post...abundance and PMA. Hopefully I make it last.
I guarantee you that your decisions will come more naturally when you FEEL they are right than if you keep using your brain to obsess over them. My anxiety regularly hit 8s and 9s in the last year. This sh*t is HARD. When you feel like your anxiety is down at a 2 or 3, and you feel confident in your decision making -- trust me, it is the best feeling in the world. Your brain will thank you for it =)
Also... what makes you think "divorce will cause shame"?
Its amazing the difference in flow when the anxiety is lowered and how hard it can be to see anxiety when its taking over. I was raised in a household and family in which even the thought of D brought shame. There is one D in the last 3 generations of my family that we know of. One and it was because the H had extreme mental problems. Part of my dilemma is accepting D may be the better option and facing that shame.
Might read and reply more later.
Core the shame you mention is just something you create.
D is not what you wanted but Noone can or should control everything in their life.
Its one of those cases where you know your own thinking is wrong yet have trouble circumventing it due to engrained patterns. I've made peace with the fact that D is likely going to happen and that its probably the better outcome for me. There is still shame internally from myself, probably from things I heard from relatives as a kid.
I listened to and deleted old voicemails to clean up my phone. Had several from W calling to tell me how much she loved me. Amazing what changes in a person. Just sad, she was so sweet and feminine in the time before time. The woman before me is the same or worse as the one I've seen presented to friends, coworkers, strangers, etc. Its like she had a GF/wife persona she killed off.
I started the Power of Now book and its seemingly good so far. One odd thing is that I got to thinking that anxiety is useful. I may not let go of it. During the times I'm controlling it, I've so much energy.
S1 has learned to climb shelving and is getting on the counter which has a plethora of knives, choking hazards, valuables, cords, chemicals. You get the idea. Im impressed overall with his skill and more so his stealth. I had no idea he was up there until he knocked down D4s toys she was hiding from him.
As I teeter taughter away from thinking I need to file for D ASAP, I still debate how to handle this unofficial IHS. Like, we never agreed to or called this IHS. No rules, no boundaries. On her end Just I want a D. Wait I want the M. Wait I want space. She wants space yet closes in on me more and more, in a sometimes friendly way. I dont want to attach, so I am debating separate meals and avoiding her more.
You kind of have split personalities Core.
I started just saying whatever I want and having a IDGAF attitude. W has engaged me several times the past few days in friendly teasing banter, following my lead. Its been fun. I'm not expecting anything from here nor is this drawing me in, I'm just having a good time in the poor situation which I am at least half responsible for getting myself in. After playfully mocking her a bit, she ending up bringing me dinner while on a teleconference. It was barely even poisoned. Being a dumb A and non caring really makes life easier. Not sure how i forgot that!
This guy peered his head out of his shell and look at the results he received.
As I teeter taughter away from thinking I need to file for D ASAP, I still debate how to handle this unofficial IHS. Like, we never agreed to or called this IHS. No rules, no boundaries. On her end Just I want a D. Wait I want the M. Wait I want space. She wants space yet closes in on me more and more, in a sometimes friendly way. I dont want to attach, so I am debating separate meals and avoiding her more.
Then back to whiny punishing core because he can't get his way.
Which Core is more attractive?
Just out of curiosity Core, how many of us in IHS do you really think sat down and laid out a) that we were officially in an in house separation b) what the rules were/are or c) made the decision mutually? Like is this what you think is what's really happening in most of our households?
I've seen this with LBWs far more than I do with LBHs but you have like this fantasy mind set of how things are supposed to be and you can't let it go. You get genuinely stuck in the idea of "If I do A according to the books and websites and podcasts W should do B." Or "In the books, websites, podcasts, this is how things are done why aren't we doing things that way"?
Yes couples exist that plan out an in home separation, they create rules, and boundaries, they create physically separate spaces and make schedules, but those couples are few and far between.
And I'm with LH here you don't get your way whether it's directly by W or indirectly because this messy situation isn't going the way you want it to you only have 2 ways to deal with that punish W or spin.
I'm serious Core. I know you ignored me before, but I'm going to keep saying it. You need a new IC. If you can't be upfront and honest about things, and how much your anxiety colors your world, and how easily swayed by emotion you are on any given day, you need some one who can see the difference between reality and your emotionally fueled reality. You need some one who is going to challenge your thinking and mindset. You do not need a person who will continue to enable your behaviors and thought process and call it support.
Then back to whiny punishing core because he can't get his way.
Which Core is more attractive?
Whining is the 2020 way to handle things. I dont want my fellow millennials to oust me from the group.
My abundance and IDGAF mindset I liken to soap in the shower. Hard to hold on to. Anything hard to get is worth it though.
Just out of curiosity Core, how many of us in IHS do you really think sat down and laid out a) that we were officially in an in house separation b) what the rules were/are or c) made the decision mutually? Like is this what you think is what's really happening in most of our households?
You're right, none of us here have IHS conditions or even out of home separation conditions that I know of.
I've seen this with LBWs far more than I do with LBHs but you have like this fantasy mind set of how things are supposed to be and you can't let it go. You get genuinely stuck in the idea of "If I do A according to the books and websites and podcasts W should do B." Or "In the books, websites, podcasts, this is how things are done why aren't we doing things that way"?
This is true. This I dont see as a changeable trait, its hard coded personality. I live by rules and boundaries as lame as that sounds. I cant chalk it up to anxiety.
And I'm with LH here you don't get your way whether it's directly by W or indirectly because this messy situation isn't going the way you want it to you only have 2 ways to deal with that punish W or spin.
I'm going to try complaining about this one last time. How do you commit to vows, be unsupportive of your spouse while theyre facing their trauma, have an affair while you have a child 6m or younger, then blame the spouse for it all, ask for a D, then sit on your A and do absolutely nothing except be a victim and rude person for the next 10 months?Compared to what many others have gone through, what W went through with me is a walk on the beach! By the time my parents were my age, my dad had been shot a few times, house broken in to, barely affording food. You know, real problems. Not only is this illogical and irrational, it makes no sense emotionally either. Ive wanted to write that out for awhile, I do know the answers to some of that and accept its not black and white. To your point, I'm still too weak to have the stuff bounce off me. Better but not where I need or want to be so I'm continuing the work.
I still think if sandi2 followed me, she'd advise I've been too nice here and that W needs consequences for her actions. W has no incentive to lift a finger and somehow she can just turn off her sex drive. Dried up like the Sahara. My resentment of her for all this builds daily as she strolls around like we were never married, like we arent currently married. I think I'm still a victim of Nice Guy Syndrome here pretending to be a family, allowing W to vent some problems to me, eating dinner and doing holidays together. So whats going to happen is resentful nice guy will explode and file for D. Assertive or Dbag guy isnt allowed to punish and the days I find peace with the sitch, Im wondering if thats just rationalizing.
I truly cant tell if things are getting a little better or I'm being used. Now I get for some, they played family and its working well. The difference being to me that works well on a man however on a woman it'll just lower respect. I can tell she still looks down on me (and most of the world). I can see it in those vengeful, judgemental eyes. Looking in them I sense shes got a connection straight to the man below and seemingly has not an ounce of empathy for me, or any men in this world. Just all the women in her life which are oddly avoidant victims as well. I'm going to get flack for all this, I know its my perception. Sometimes the gut it right. My brother looked in her eyes after an episode one time and immediately said to me, now I understand. I was on her side but i can see what youre dealing with.
I'm serious Core. I know you ignored me before, but I'm going to keep saying it. You need a new IC. If you can't be upfront and honest about things, and how much your anxiety colors your world, and how easily swayed by emotion you are on any given day, you need some one who can see the difference between reality and your emotionally fueled reality. You need some one who is going to challenge your thinking and mindset. You do not need a person who will continue to enable your behaviors and thought process and call it support.
He does an effective style which only 1 other counselor in town does. Im considering your advice here but I may ignore it.
So whining is a millennial trait and therefore okay. And expecting W to react appropriately to things you say and do is a personality thing and you will continue to do it.
I think we are seeing a mindset here as to why you may be in your sitch.
"This is the way I am, deal with it!" Ever said that or something similar to your W before all of this happened?
I think you have some 180ing to do.
As far as the IC. Hmmmm, he does an effective style.....which hasn't been effective. This seems like more core stubbornness.
You still want to punish her. And you still expect her to act like a wife when she doesn’t want to.
Her commuting to being the wife you want right now is off the table. Not an option. Erase it. You can leave and divorce and give her the consequences you want her to suffer. Or you can continue to live as roommates and parents, you do your thing, she does her thing .
What you want to have happen is off the table now so you have to play the hand you are dealt right now.
And you totally have the millennial mentality. I’m going to whine about it until I get what I want.
It’s just not the way the world works! It is a cruel world out there.
C,
So it seems pretty simple to me especially having really young children and being relatively young.
Continue to get stronger mentally and physically. Start establishing boundaries.
Continue to be playful with W with ZERO EXPECTATIONS.
Have a reasonable end date in mind.
Have one more loving conversation on what you expect out of the marriage.
The whining part I was joking about. It is a disgusting trait all around and definitely one I need to rid myself of.
The part where I dont see myself changing is liking rules, borders, structure and rationality. That is me, thats my family. I dont see that being changable and honestly if it is, I dont want to change it. I had a perfectly fine life before Ws past caught up with her, full of good friends and family. This trait of mine didnt break her and its probably what attracted her chaos in the first place. Once my own chaos came in after my anxiety flaired up, thats when things got bad. If W will commonly be a reactive victim, have no empathy and be consistently irrational then the problem is hers, is it not?
By the counselors style, I'm referring to EMDR. Only one other person does it here, and is the only male, which I prefer over a female in terms of IC. Im not seeing changes from EMDR as it has to be done in person which my state wont allow yet. I am seriously considering a new IC until I can EMDR with this one.
The part where I dont see myself changing is liking rules, borders, structure and rationality. That is me, thats my family. I dont see that being changable and honestly if it is, I dont want to change it. I had a perfectly fine life before Ws past caught up with her, full of good friends and family. This trait of mine didnt break her and its probably what attracted her chaos in the first place. Once my own chaos came in after my anxiety flaired up, thats when things got bad. If W will commonly be a reactive victim, have no empathy and be consistently irrational then the problem is hers, is it not?
You can be right. Or you can be happy. You rarely can be both.
Core -
A couple things:
- Logic and reason do not work here. You can try to figure them out, but it will lead you nowhere and it will not solve anything.
- You can blame your faulty characteristics on others and stay in a victim mindset. Or you can own up to the faults you know you have and try to change them.
- You are responsible for your life. No one else is. Complaining here is fine if that's all you do, but if you complain in real life, it may make you feel better for a while, but overall it solves nothing. It creates negative energy and is unattractive. Action solves stuff, not words.
I'll leave you with a quote I just got on my own thread from DnJ. You should go check his situation out in MLC if you want a good look at grace under pressure -
"Be better not bitter."
Take care, man - stay strong
You still want to punish her. And you still expect her to act like a wife when she doesn’t want to.
I do want her to face karma. I think people who do bad things deserve it. The old testament was all about it. I know I'm not judge, jury and executioner. It still pisses me off how well she has it right now after all the pain she caused my family and I.
I dont expect her to act like a wife, however she acts like Im a husband. Dump all her worries and angers, tries telling me what to do, pouts when I dont give in, judges every breathe I take, complains to her friends that Im a bad partner, yet she has little human like quality towards me. She gets an H as a roomate, I get someone who wants to shank me. Exaggerated to make a point.
Her commuting to being the wife you want right now is off the table. Not an option. Erase it. You can leave and divorce and give her the consequences you want her to suffer. Or you can continue to live as roommates and parents, you do your thing, she does her thing .
What you want to have happen is off the table now so you have to play the hand you are dealt right now.
True, I keep forgetting this.
And you totally have the millennial mentality. I’m going to whine about it until I get what I want.
It’s just not the way the world works! It is a cruel world out there.
The very reason why I want a fellow human to battle it with, and lead us through.
The complaining I've realized worked on my mother to get what i wanted. Some self reflecting will be done tonight on this.
C,
So it seems pretty simple to me especially having really young children and being relatively young.
Continue to get stronger mentally and physically. Start establishing boundaries.
Continue to be playful with W with ZERO EXPECTATIONS.
Have a reasonable end date in mind.
Have one more loving conversation on what you expect out of the marriage.
I wish I could sticky this to see everytime I come here to post. I pasted this as a daily calendar reminder.
It’s your choice to act like a husband. Her reactions to you not acting like one are on her. So you have the choice to act like a husband or not. She can act like you are her husband all she wants. How you respond to that is on you.
We can’t count on karma coming in the way you want. Karma may come in many years down the line in a way that doesn’t give you he retribution you want. You have to trust in the universe. And your desire to see her pay is really only affecting you, not her.
It’s a cruel world, yes. But you want who you want in the way you want by your side . But it’s someone who doesn’t want to be. So learn how to guide yourself through it. It’s not easy, but you can’t depend on someone else for it.
You really do have a sense of entitlement to things being just as you want them. I’m guessing you got what you wanted , when you wanted and how you wanted it growing up? It’s just not now how adulthood works. And heck, most childhoods. I understand this heartbreaking and life changing, but you can’t control every pickle to happen the way you want. You need a plan for yourself with what you have
This is true. This I dont see as a changeable trait, its hard coded personality. I live by rules and boundaries as lame as that sounds. I cant chalk it up to anxiety.
And this is why I think you need a new therapist. There's no such thing as hard coded personality.That's essentially saying people are entirely incapable of change or growth. I'm a rule follower too, but that has absolutely nothing to do with an enormous set of expectations based on soft science. I have a high enough IQ and EQ to understand the human variable and that there are no real rules with humans. At our core we are animals. Patterns may exist but at any point our higher thought process can go out the window. As such rules, patterns, what have you, don't apply. That's called nature. That's called life. People in crisis are not running on a higher thought process. They are functioning at toddler levels. Maybe, maybe school age children. Some techniques may work. Some might not. But in any case working with a person who isn't working with logic or on a higher thought plane is a grab bag. Hence the cheese-less tunnel idea. Hence the drop your expectations.
I'm going to try complaining about this one last time. How do you commit to vows, be unsupportive of your spouse while theyre facing their trauma, have an affair while you have a child 6m or younger, then blame the spouse for it all, ask for a D, then sit on your A and do absolutely nothing except be a victim and rude person for the next 10 months?
So you haven't been a victim or been rude to your W at all ever in the last 10 months? Ok, got it.
Compared to what many others have gone through, what W went through with me is a walk on the beach!
So because what you've done to breed resentment and set your relationship on a trajectory to crash isn't as bad as what other people are capable of doing so you aren't culpable at all? Ah I see.
By the time my parents were my age, my dad had been shot a few times, house broken in to, barely affording food. You know, real problems.
So W should have never had any resentment towards you, difficulty in the MR or problems with her own psyche because your dad had a rough life?
I still think if sandi2 followed me, she'd advise I've been too nice here and that W needs consequences for her actions.
You have been too nice. And you've been a jerk. You aren't offering consistency but react when your W doesn't respond with consistency. As I see it your W's EA is over. You two are in a stalemate of a strained MR what consequences do you think W deserves? D? Ok so then why are you still on the fence?
IW has no incentive to lift a finger and somehow she can just turn off her sex drive. Dried up like the Sahara. My resentment of her for all this builds daily as she strolls around like we were never married, like we arent currently married.
And when you don't let your anxiety drive the bus for 2 min all that starts to fall away and she tries, but then you want to eat meals alone. So I'm really confused here as to what the goal is. Do you know?
I think I'm still a victim of Nice Guy Syndrome here pretending to be a family
If you D'ed you will still have to be a family. And other people have told you that. Spending time as a family is not anti-DB and it's good for the kids to have parents who can tolerate each other long enough to have times where they are a family together.
allowing W to vent some problems to me,
So don't let her vent to you. I had to stop my H. A lot of us do. When I was fired, I was fired. Unless you want to vent about our tiny roommates who I also find exhausting, I can't help you. This may be a NGS thing. And if it's too much for you don't do it. But that's a two way street. If she can't vent to you, you can't vent to her either.
eating dinner and doing holidays together.
If the kids are involved in this this is not a NGS thing or a bad thing. This is good for the kids. If the kids aren't involved this is something you'll have to figure out how you'd like to handle based on what's emotionally safe for you, not this NGS theory of yours. These are normal family and household activities. I still see my ex in-laws for an hour or 2 at Xmas time when I bring my D over. When my ex is sober or not there it's nice. You don't stop being family when you get D'ed.
So whats going to happen is resentful nice guy will explode and file for D. Assertive or Dbag guy isnt allowed to punish and the days I find peace with the sitch, Im wondering if thats just rationalizing.
Uh you realize there isn't just too nice and d*ck. Like those aren't your only choices. And you keep saying you're going to get the D any way so I'm not sure what that has to do with NGS or you being a dbag.
I truly cant tell if things are getting a little better or I'm being used.
It's not like you're going to listen to me anyway so I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but....you will never get to a point where you know the difference if you a) can't detach enough to see your own sitch from a different angle b) can't understand and sit in your own emotions without collapsing into yourself, giving in to knee jerk reactions or flailing helplessly. As long as you maintain this trajectory where you know best you will never get to that point. Growth can't happen in a vacuum. Cheese-less tunnels apply to us as well. If it isn't working why do you keep thinking and doing things the same way over and over and over. The only way you can get to a point where you can understand her motive or intent is if you are in a clear space where what she says or does has no effect on you either way.
Now I get for some, they played family and its working well.The difference being to me that works well on a man however on a woman it'll just lower respect. I can tell she still looks down on me (and most of the world). I can see it in those vengeful, judgemental eyes. Looking in them I sense shes got a connection straight to the man below and seemingly has not an ounce of empathy for me, or any men in this world. Just all the women in her life which are oddly avoidant victims as well. I'm going to get flack for all this, I know its my perception. Sometimes the gut it right. My brother looked in her eyes after an episode one time and immediately said to me, now I understand. I was on her side but i can see what youre dealing with.
This entire rant says so much more about you than it does your W.
He does an effective style which only 1 other counselor in town does. Im considering your advice here but I may ignore it.
I'm sure you will ignore it, echo chambers are very comfortable.
Core ~
Do you recognize how your thought patterns are at the whim of your anxiety?
I'm going to get nailed by the board here with this post and maybe I should. Hear me out first.
I wanted to take the kids to a public water park here. Barely used because of covid. My Ws friend had us watching her 4 and 2ish kids for the day. W asked to come along so they could all play. I said ok and we went out as a super big family.
I played in the water with the kids a bit and just felt something was wrong. After playing with the kids in the water for a bit, W was just cold, mean, distant. She asked me for a food pouch for the baby which slipped out my fingers and she sarcastically says "thanks", i got criticized for wiping sand off my leg, later on she complained twice at home for me not stacking dishes the way she wouldve liked. Anyways this is getting long but it continued.
She was supposed to have her counseling today. I see no bill and she texted a friend at the time. Total blow off. So shes not really going or cant get herself to go. So I did what a sane person would do (not) and snooped.
Thats where I'll get flack but know what, i have to protect myself, my kids, my interests and my future. I'm not living with someone who's having a bad day but someone who abhores me and has the power to destroy my life. Not like others here whose spouse has feelings and some kindess. Her friend whom I borderline saved her husband from a crap load of trouble with the law internet chatted with her. (This is NGS as I see I expect pleasantness in return to being a compassionate friend to them). Well W texted her friend along the lines of "lame faced hillbilly has such a farmer tan that He looks like a botched paint job". Her friend rolled on the floor. No my H looks like this, but a derogatory object looks like this.
Funny if it wasnt about me I guess. This is the seething hatred vibing in my house. Its not ok and I need to protect myself. She told another friend she should have a job by fall so she's making plans, just not communicating. All while telling others im not being a good person. Weird.
I've been painted black. I take this as the final sign I needed. This isnt healthy for the kids even if there are no visible arguments. This isnt better for them, I dont think it can be. This is the woman I've helped take two babies out of, helped her out of a bad area in to the best part of town. I'm such a bad person her and her companions can just degrade me. I saved her friends kid from getting a concussion or worse with a "dad save" which injured me for a week and she is going to encourage this?
Im fed up, and yes this cut through my skin. No it shouldnt but im weak and allowed it. I thought overall it couldve been a great day, yet I was judged and criticized by my W and someone who I considered a friend. Their kids are probably my kids best friends and I'll have to see them for years to come.
I see zero reason not to file. Yes W is going through a hard time. Yet I'm the target. Im guessing therapy may just be her cheating. She did call a therapist, I saw it but clearly didnt go. My days are worse with her around in it and i could moreso be enjoying these young years with the kids. This gorgeous bikini clad woman talked to me today when I took my kids again to the park without W. Telling me how cute the kids are and how nice im with them. A stranger who could be a model whom I would think avoids random men, treats me kindly while my friends and W think im a toxic slug. I want away from the truly toxic environment. I'll lose half my days with my kids but those days I get will be so much happier. Busier yes, more stressful yes. Am I fantasizing and partially ignoring how hard it will be, yes. But not as hard as living in a dead lonely marriage where I'm my Ws arch enemy. I didn't break her. She thinks so.
Honestly, I can't blame you for feeling the way you do.
Only you know when it's time to file. Clearly she lacks respect to put it mildly.
I'm planning on one last loving conversation before calling it quits. Seeing as an R talk is already against the rules, and likely to push her away I dont want to overdo it by breaking too many rules. Even if I D today, we'll be stuck together for the process, due to covid and due to long daycare waiting lists. I'm thankful they've had the time at home that they've had.
I'm thinking of breaking one rule and talking about our old days, how I know she feels vulnerable and hurt and is protecting herself. I'd pathetically then like to ask her if any part of her wants to work on the M. When she asks for time, Ill ask what that means. If she says shes ready then Ill just say ok, and will call my attorney when Ive the chance to start this logistics untying. I dont know what else to say really. I wonder if she loves me but I doubt it and i might as well be crawling on my knees groveling by asking that. Theres nothing else I need to know. If she wants to work on things well thats a whole different dilemma im not ready for. Doubtful so focus is off that.
I know why this happened, as LH mentioned its likely avoidant-anxious dance. Her past is scarred and bubbled up, recreating her wounds and I suppose mine did as well. I know who my friends are now. I know I tried. I didnt give it a full year since BD. I may or may nor regret it long run. It will have been almost a year since she physically and emotionally left so im rationalizing that.
Any suggestions on this last ditch effort? What to say or avoid saying?
You say nothing. There is no last last last last last ditch effort . You are only going to make her see you worse than she already does. And it’s going to have absolutely zero effect.
Be effective. Just do it. Actions. No words . your have gotten you no where . And you’ve used a whole lot of them. She can’t stand you right now ( sorry for the harshness) and she really even loathe you more when you bring up memories.
Don’t do it. Be silent. I understand that can be very difficult, but you’ll certainly save some face
Hi Core, sounds like a bad, bad idea. You're mind-reading "she feels vulnerable and hurt and is protecting herself". Also, you already know she's neither in a place to commit to reconciliation nor ready to divorce you. There's no need to "pathetically ask" when in this moment (sorry) she despises you.
Avoid saying anything.
What actions could Core take to build himself up?
C,
As early as one week ago you were ready to play the long game and then you snoop and read something you don’t like and you go back to wanting to force it.
I feel like you’ve lost your identity and you don’t know who you are right now. One minute your all about the kids and sucking it up for them, the next minute you have a great life planned out for the three of them and now you want to stroll down memory lane.
I am a proponent for the one last relationship talk but you’re not ready for it right now. You’re are not strong enough to say this isn’t working for you and communicating your expectations of what you want out of marriage and then walking if she won’t work towards meeting those expectations.
You’re a beaten man right now and are in no position to come from a place of strength.
I think the problem is he’s had the one last relationship talk 5 times so far
No R talks. Period.
Unless you want to get massively BDed.
Step away from your emotions - they are leading you right now, and you may regret making an emotional decision while you are in this state.
Calm yourself first. Get ahold of your anxiety.
Core,
I have wanted to speak R with my H. But I am not ready, and I know if I attempted, it would not go well. I still want to stand and I am really trying to not read his mind,
Last Friday ( one week ago) til Monday, he was very nice, making mini convos. Tuesday morning, someone else took over and he returned to being blank stare- distant. He has been easy to deal with in the last few months. What changed? I.dont.know. I cannot read his mind. I can think he’s hurt and is depressed and a multitude of other excuses, but I really don’t know. What do I know? Me. I am not ready to give up, and a year ago, this was normal behavior. I have seen him lighten up and cycle through a few times since then. He is fighting his own battles.
I had cried to my IC when he went out with his friends, thinking of all of the lies he was possibly telling them. She asked why it mattered, since I know the truth. I had to really think about that. He’s lying. Oh well. I know the truth, and so does he.
I will just keep standing until I decide I don’t want to or until I don’t need to, this isnt for the weak. Do what you need to do as in making a plan if things don’t go to a reconciliation. But if you can, GAL and don’t talk to her about R.
Stay strong,
PLC
Oh, Core.
I am so sorry. Your feelings must be so hurt right now. I know mine would be. Here you are, doing your best as a Dad and an H, and W throws it in your face with her nasty text conversations. Ouch. Deep, heart-hurt there. It’s OK to feel sad and hurt and angry right now. You are allowed those feelings.
HOWEVER (ha! You probably knew this was coming), you absolutely MUST see this as a reflection of her, not you. What kind of person gains legitimacy (laughs/humor/kicks) by bashing or making fun of a good person? Only an unhealthy person. Only a person who is lost, sad, low self-esteem and bitter. PLEASE do not take this as an excuse to pity her. She is not worthy of your pity right now. But if you were reading your thread and knew nothing of the two of you, you would see it as I do: Core is a good person trying his best and his W is a sad, lost, bitter creature who is not worthy of his attention. I mean, SO NOT WORTHY. (Right now).
Do NOT have that last R talk. She will use it to further degrade you and you will regret it. Right now, you need to bottle that anger/hurt/feeling of being done and save it as rocket fuel for the next step. And you can only decide the next step when you are in a place of calm. Which isn’t now.
Her words are a reflection of her, not you. Her, not you. Drum that into your soul. This is about her and not you.
Once you are in a place of what’s best for YOU, uncap that rocket fuel and use it to propel you to the next level of Core. The one deserving of a partner who appreciates him, sees what a great Dad he is (ahem, model girl at the park), and knows how to treat a person with dignity and respect.
It might be your W. It might not. But in the meantime, stay true to Core.
(((Core)))
My goal is not to save my M but to save me and give my kids a good life. Limbo and hatred dont mesh with that.
Hi Core, sounds like a bad, bad idea. You're mind-reading "she feels vulnerable and hurt and is protecting herself". Also, you already know she's neither in a place to commit to reconciliation nor ready to divorce you. There's no need to "pathetically ask" when in this moment (sorry) she despises you.
Avoid saying anything.
What actions could Core take to build himself up?
Thanks for the feedback CW. As far as how she feels, I'm nearly positive I'm on target. Not mind reading, more an understanding and knowledge from past chats with her, things I've learned DBing and how she talks to others currently.
Her despising me is why I want to have the chat. Time to sh or get off the pot. How would a victim feel...thats how she perceives herself, probably how she feels.
You say nothing. There is no last last last last last ditch effort . You are only going to make her see you worse than she already does. And it’s going to have absolutely zero effect.
Be effective. Just do it. Actions. No words . your have gotten you no where . And you’ve used a whole lot of them. She can’t stand you right now ( sorry for the harshness) and she really even loathe you more when you bring up memories.
Don’t do it. Be silent. I understand that can be very difficult, but you’ll certainly save some face
G, thank you. My take - the silent approach gives me pause. My reasoning, as messed up as she's been to me, she did cut off contact with OM and has "tried" to go to counseling. Her damage being so bad as giving her panic attacks mostly due to what I think is her early caregivers abandoning her around 4, I don't want to hurt her during this. As another human being and mother of my kids, I want to end the marriage gently as pushing her abandonment button when she distanced is partially why I believe I'm here. She wouldn't do the same for me but I'm not like her. Our last real R chat was a couple moons ago, and she asked for time then, not D.
Unless you want to get massively BDed.
Step away from your emotions - they are leading you right now, and you may regret making an emotional decision while you are in this state.
Calm yourself first. Get ahold of your anxiety.
Definitely in a state of high emotion at the moment of my last post. I plan to chat once Im more balanced out. If she BDs me, she does me a favor. I'd rather it be her.
Core -
Everyone here is telling you not to have an R chat right now.
You still want to have one.
I did what you did for 6 months. Then I stopped because it was just causing me extra pain for nothing. That's what it will do for you.
I am no longer willing to talk about the R. I am no longer willing to discuss something that will cause me pain for no reason. If W decides to come back and initiates that R talk, that would be different. But it's not the case right now. Neither is it for you.
Good luck, man. I'm sorry for all the pain you will experience.
Take care - stay strong.
As early as one week ago you were ready to play the long game and then you snoop and read something you don’t like and you go back to wanting to force it.
I feel like you’ve lost your identity and you don’t know who you are right now. One minute your all about the kids and sucking it up for them, the next minute you have a great life planned out for the three of them and now you want to stroll down memory lane.
True, I didnt realize the extent of her existing hatred then. I thought we were more of on edge roommates. Didn't know I was subhuman. If this stuff is communicated over facebook, what could my kids overhear in person around Ws friends?
This also lets me know what I thought was fun, good days together was something else for her. What seemed like her jokes and teases maybe were small personal attacks. Who knows.
I am a proponent for the one last relationship talk but you’re not ready for it right now. You’re are not strong enough to say this isn’t working for you and communicating your expectations of what you want out of marriage and then walking if she won’t work towards meeting those expectations.
You’re a beaten man right now and are in no position to come from a place of strength.
Beaten but not knocked out. I want to end this before round 12 before I do go down. I have a preplanned trip with her and her family tomorrow, going out on a boat with the kids. I've got an ill feeling about it but want to go to see kids first boat ride. I'm hoping im paranoid but it does feel like it could be a set up as its family members whom would side with her no question asked. I'm tired of not trusting, of knowing she could claim false allegations at any point. I will have audio recording the entire time unless it gets wet.
I have wanted to speak R with my H. But I am not ready, and I know if I attempted, it would not go well. I still want to stand and I am really trying to not read his mind
Glad you stopped by. I want to D more than stand at this point. If I have one last chat, I can say I tried it all.
Last Friday ( one week ago) til Monday, he was very nice, making mini convos. Tuesday morning, someone else took over and he returned to being blank stare- distant. He has been easy to deal with in the last few months. What changed? I.dont.know. I cannot read his mind. I can think he’s hurt and is depressed and a multitude of other excuses, but I really don’t know. What do I know? Me. I am not ready to give up, and a year ago, this was normal behavior. I have seen him lighten up and cycle through a few times since then. He is fighting his own battles.
I had cried to my IC when he went out with his friends, thinking of all of the lies he was possibly telling them. She asked why it mattered, since I know the truth. I had to really think about that. He’s lying. Oh well. I know the truth, and so does he.
I think they start to believe their false narratives after awhile. Heck W almost had me convinced early on that this was all my fault, that i hurt us all, that I need to move out. I was in the actual experiences and still gave credit to her words. I know what W is saying to friends and its just not right. She's like the villian from countless shows/movies...how does one not see that in themselves unless theyve a disorder. Is your H the type to talk about you to friends? I honestly only had two negative chats to friends before BD. I rarely talked about R stuff.
I will just keep standing until I decide I don’t want to or until I don’t need to, this isnt for the weak. Do what you need to do as in making a plan if things don’t go to a reconciliation. But if you can, GAL and don’t talk to her about R.
Now I'm no longer sure what I actually want to talk to her about. I really think I want to relieve my own guilt and D.
I am so sorry. Your feelings must be so hurt right now. I know mine would be. Here you are, doing your best as a Dad and an H, and W throws it in your face with her nasty text conversations. Ouch. Deep, heart-hurt there. It’s OK to feel sad and hurt and angry right now. You are allowed those feelings.
You're good at this validation stuff.
HOWEVER (ha! You probably knew this was coming), you absolutely MUST see this as a reflection of her, not you. What kind of person gains legitimacy (laughs/humor/kicks) by bashing or making fun of a good person? Only an unhealthy person. Only a person who is lost, sad, low self-esteem and bitter. PLEASE do not take this as an excuse to pity her. She is not worthy of your pity right now. But if you were reading your thread and knew nothing of the two of you, you would see it as I do: Core is a good person trying his best and his W is a sad, lost, bitter creature who is not worthy of his attention. I mean, SO NOT WORTHY. (Right now).
Do NOT have that last R talk. She will use it to further degrade you and you will regret it. Right now, you need to bottle that anger/hurt/feeling of being done and save it as rocket fuel for the next step. And you can only decide the next step when you are in a place of calm. Which isn’t now.
What scares me is being in a tiny house with this person during a worldwide crisis while this is what they think of me. Joking about physical harm, joking about my looks, actions. How long until they joke about how to remove me from the house. How she could get full custody of the kids. Then it becomes serious. Im at a disadvantage compared to women on this board, the court doesnt favor the dad, and W has had months to stack cards (friends and fam) against me.
Her words are a reflection of her, not you. Her, not you. Drum that into your soul. This is about her and not you.
Amen
Once you are in a place of what’s best for YOU, uncap that rocket fuel and use it to propel you to the next level of Core. The one deserving of a partner who appreciates him, sees what a great Dad he is (ahem, model girl at the park), and knows how to treat a person with dignity and respect.
It might be your W. It might not. But in the meantime, stay true to Core.
(((Core)))
I may skip the countdown. I have to launch while there is fuel and before I get sabotaged here.
C,
It’s not 1950 anymore. The courts don’t favor the woman anymore. They recognize time with both parents are important.
Everyone here is telling you not to have an R chat right now.
You still want to have one.
I did what you did for 6 months. Then I stopped because it was just causing me extra pain for nothing. That's what it will do for you.
I am no longer willing to talk about the R. I am no longer willing to discuss something that will cause me pain for no reason. If W decides to come back and initiates that R talk, that would be different. But it's not the case right now. Neither is it for you.
Good luck, man. I'm sorry for all the pain you will experience.
Take care - stay strong.
I get where you and most of the others are coming from IW. In regards to an R chat, I can avoid it to save myself pain, or I can have the R chat, facing the pain and avoiding guilt and regret. I've been hurt so many times already, what's a little more pain versus having the regrets of not having one last conversation before filing?
All, I think we have to be true to ourselves and thats what I'd be doing. Part of my identity. Who I am as a person. If it pushes her away, thats probably a good thing. I do not see how she can possible fix the damage she's done in her lifetime unless me, my very few contacts, whomever W has told and my IC all bumped our heads, got amnesia and all forgot what happened here. How could I ever remotely trust her again? How could I gaze in her eyes and experience joy or love? I've learned too much about D, attachment theory, cluster Bs, true nature of WWs to make peace. So many red flags, I feel like I'm in Beijing. I was naive. I'll miss being so but glad I no longer am. Every word she speaks I now know theres a hidden goal and meaning. Especially as she often accused me of such even though I was direct. Its projecting. W has been spending and drinking a lot more as well. This is money we need for lawyers and kids college, not a giant outdoor playset. Talking money is inches from an R chat and will likely go there. We agreed to a budget which she's exceeding.
I get the pro marriage takes here. Im wondering, what benefit is there to me to not D right now? I understand my kids may be better off in this mess versus a D but what about me?
No physical or emotional needs met. She spends about 80% of our free income. I'm at risk of false allegations. I'm passively targeted with aggression often. We agree on almost nothing lately especially kids and finances.
Why fight, so my kids can see what a broken man looks like going to an early grave? There is no doubt even the most stoic man would still face stress from bleeding finances, dismal communication, separation from his goals and frequent passive aggression. I want to live long for my kids, this situation is counter to that. It's stressful no matter how you cut it. D will be more financially stressful but I'd have a clean house which I control, minimal spending, vacations and parenting the way I like, ability to achieve my dreams, ability to love someone who reciprocates or at least enjoy short term fun.
I no longer see any reason to stand, not even for the kids. They'd be hurt more if I passed in my early 40s of a heart attack and they had no biological dad around.
I get where you and most of the others are coming from IW. In regards to an R chat, I can avoid it to save myself pain, or I can have the R chat, facing the pain and avoiding guilt and regret. I've been hurt so many times already, what's a little more pain versus having the regrets of not having one last conversation before filing?
All, I think we have to be true to ourselves and thats what I'd be doing. Part of my identity. Who I am as a person. If it pushes her away, thats probably a good thing. I do not see how she can possible fix the damage she's done in her lifetime unless me, my very few contacts, whomever W has told and my IC all bumped our heads, got amnesia and all forgot what happened here. How could I ever remotely trust her again? How could I gaze in her eyes and experience joy or love? I've learned too much about D, attachment theory, cluster Bs, true nature of WWs to make peace. So many red flags, I feel like I'm in Beijing. I was naive. I'll miss being so but glad I no longer am. Every word she speaks I now know theres a hidden goal and meaning. Especially as she often accused me of such even though I was direct. Its projecting. W has been spending and drinking a lot more as well. This is money we need for lawyers and kids college, not a giant outdoor playset. Talking money is inches from an R chat and will likely go there. We agreed to a budget which she's exceeding.
I get the pro marriage takes here. Im wondering, what benefit is there to me to not D right now? I understand my kids may be better off in this mess versus a D but what about me?
No physical or emotional needs met. She spends about 80% of our free income. I'm at risk of false allegations. I'm passively targeted with aggression often. We agree on almost nothing lately especially kids and finances.
Why fight, so my kids can see what a broken man looks like going to an early grave? There is no doubt even the most stoic man would still face stress from bleeding finances, dismal communication, separation from his goals and frequent passive aggression. I want to live long for my kids, this situation is counter to that. It's stressful no matter how you cut it. D will be more financially stressful but I'd have a clean house which I control, minimal spending, vacations and parenting the way I like, ability to achieve my dreams, ability to love someone who reciprocates or at least enjoy short term fun.
I no longer see any reason to stand, not even for the kids. They'd be hurt more if I passed in my early 40s of a heart attack and they had no biological dad around.
So, why are you wanting to have one last loving talk with this person if this is how you feel about her/the M? What's your end game on that?
To say I tried everything and to know that I did truly do what I felt was right, for me and the kids; and in a way for W. Sudden abandonment would be brutal and would rock her core. I cant hurt another person like that.
To say I tried everything and to know that I did truly do what I felt was right, for me and the kids; and in a way for W. Sudden abandonment would be brutal and would rock her core. I cant hurt another person like that.
I hate to be brutally honest here, but how is this sudden abandonment? She knows exactly what she has done, what’s been going on here. There is nothing “sudden”
I agree with you. I just think our mindset is different from hers.
"I thought we were working on things"
"I thought we agreed to get the kids through kindergarten"
"But I'm going to therapy"
"See I knew you'd do this"
"This seems out of the blue"
Thousands of scenarios she can come up with to stick me with this and use it against me, my family or to divide my kids from me years down the road.
I'm tired on living in her frame of avoidance. Just ignoring problems and each other. Thats not me. I'm sick of walking in a room to someone pretending im not there. Sick of a lingering unending sitch. Sick of having no one to do any kind of adulting with besides parenting. Even with a roommate I'd still have a drink with them, watch a movie together. Nothing here. Why live in her frame? Mine is better and life was better for us both in my frame.
^^^^^ who cares^^^^^
Are her actions a reflection of her words? She’s not doing any of those things.
So out of the blue?!? Come on now. You are giving yourself excuses.
If you aren’t ready, don’t do it. I can almost guarantee she’s going to say “ give me time” and you’ll say ok. And not a thing will change. She will throw something to keep you on the hook to keep her cushy lifestyle and nothing will change.
And you have to be ok with that to come out on the other end. You’ll have to be ok living as roommates and atoooing the snooping and her snide remarks. You’ll have to get so much stronger.
Core,
Before acting, you should consider how much action will actually change your life? My wife filed for divorce a few months ago and I am only a few months away from the big day. But I feel like the filing itself has had zero impact on my life. She also moved out after I told her that she should. That conversation did have an impact on my life.
With that in mind, what action are you taking that will have an impact? If it isn't going to change anything, why bother? As for talking, I cannot see that having a positive impact.
-Spiral
I have some thoughts to the source of my spinning. It's a battle of two belief systems.
Set A: Fight for marriage till the bitter end, kids need two parents in one home, god is pro marriage, W can be forgiven, you love w and are attracted to her most times just not at the moment, divorce will cause shame, life will be worse after.
Set B: You're holding on to a dead marriage, W forsake god and the marriage-this makes it ok and advisable to D, you dont love her and arent attracted to her-did you ever?, the kids are worse off the longer this lasts, divorce will help to achieve goals and thus happiness, you cant forgive W, life will be better after D, W doesnt deserve you and you deserve better, if Im only holding on for the kids then there is nothing worth saving.
Reality is probably inbetween these two however I keep trying to pick one mindset or the other.
core, I feel your pain and I'm going through the exact same thing. Tonight, my WW has gone off to see OM and stay the night with him, then she'll come back home to me and my two kids.
My kids say they stopped caring about the situation because they have no power to control things and neither do I.
I work remotely due to Covid and just counting down the weeks till she moves out. First she wanted to buy me out but couldn't afford to. Then she got a better job and wanted to move in with OM. Then OM broke up with her and she wanted to buy a house. Now she's back with OM but wants to move into her own place. It changes every week.
You're all right.
So I've already tried talking, I tried actions. I gave up and worked on me and the kids. I gave numerous chances. I should have nothing to feel guilty over and W SHOULDNT be surprised by the next course of action. Past experience everytime I moved forward tells me otherwise.
In latest events her true colors show again. Im bed ridden with a migraine and she asked me to avoid one side of the house incase its the bug. I asked if she would bring me water then and she no pretty harshly. I guess to the person I married that my suffering is deserved. Unbelievable. Zero heart. Zero empathy. Also my lawyer apparently closed hos practice for a few weeks to open a new one. Starting over there.
I had this WAS like fantasy where I'd be single, exW would be at home to take care of the kids. Even an impossible fantasy isnt worth it now. This person put all the blame on me and hates me for it. I am disgusted.
C
So in ten months you’ve tried everything you can think of and nothing worked. I’m pretty sure that you have read on this board it’s a marathon and not a sprint. 10 months is like an hour in WW land.
Having said that I support your decision to D if you so choose.
Drh, I cant imagine kids getting to the point of not caring anymore though I can understand why and how that occurred. In terms of our Ws, it is sad to see those we loved become so broken, even as it hurts us.
Thank you LH, I know just like a WW, if flip flopped my own feelings on this board. The more that comes to light, the more I want to leave.
W went completely irrational, and attack mode in front of the kids today, right back in to her victim mindset. All over me something minor and self directed yet she took it as an attack. I validated her side while it was still rational. She made no attempt to understand mine. She says "do you know how exhausting it is to be angry at you all the time"? I stopped validating and shouldve kept it up but Im out myself. If she actually tried to get help, went to therapy and stopped her victim mindset maybe she could break free from her cycle. How she cant see the light is beyond me. I told her im not responsible for her feelings, only she is. She agreed but then starting throwing her arms up, her tone got worse. I asked her to keep things peaceful in front of the kids but she kept going. Trying to convince me that I purposely said things to hurt her. I feel bad for her but I gotta get my kids outta this and myself. Giving it about a week until I contact my lawyer.
If you're only giving it a week until you contact your lawyer well then I doubt anything will change.
I can tell you are still caught up in the storm with her. A divorce doesn't change that, ask Wolfman.
I would focus on detaching, self improvement, and being conscious when you talk to her. Can you honestly say that you've been "doing what works"? You state that she needs help, therapy, and to change her victim mindset. That's your opinion, sure, but you have zero control over her. Why not shift the focus to something you do control?
I told her im not responsible for her feelings, only she is.
When you said this, I bet she was thinking "F#$& YOU".
These types of thoughts are for you and probably aren't well received when you share them with her.
Why aren't you GAL? Why aren't you focused on actions over words? Your deeds can be of a much greater value.
If you're only giving it a week until you contact your lawyer well then I doubt anything will change.
Same here, if there was going to be a change, it wouldve happened already or it'll be years down the road.
I can tell you are still caught up in the storm with her. A divorce doesn't change that, ask Wolfman.
I believe it'll lessen it at least.
I would focus on detaching, self improvement, and being conscious when you talk to her. Can you honestly say that you've been "doing what works"? You state that she needs help, therapy, and to change her victim mindset. That's your opinion, sure, but you have zero control over her. Why not shift the focus to something you do control?
Nothing works. On days that we seemed to be having fun and getting along, she still saying awful things behind my back. My improvements can go far to help me and the kids, I've no doubt about it. What I cant control is Ws constant anger and issues which the kids are exposed to. What I can do is cut that exposure in half.
When you said this, I bet she was thinking "F#$& YOU".
I'm sure she was thinking that first think in the AM before we even chatted. I guess I dont know how to respond in those situations. I know validating isnt agreeing but I am not going to validate something thats invalid. Im no longer letting myself be responsible for her feelings and actions and she was trying darn hard to put it on me. I just told her I'm done talking. She berating me in front of the kids for a few more minutes then huffed and puffed outta the room.
These types of thoughts are for you and probably aren't well received when you share them with her.
What should one say when someone makes you an attacker and themselves a victim? I cant valid that. What I said I agree was probably one of the worse things I could say.
Why aren't you GAL? Why aren't you focused on actions over words? Your deeds can be of a much greater value.
I was working in my basement office when this all happened. GALing is going pretty well during my off hours. Will be better once the gym opens. To your other points, Im still letting W knock me off center. I cannot stand irrational people so you can only imagine how much I dislike a WW. I wont stand for being accused of things that didnt happen and play in to her narrative. I could not forcefully remove her from my office without facing a DV charge. Besides using more appropriate words, I dont know what else couldve been done.
Im at one year of physical and emotional abandonment just about and with my glasses no longer being rose tinted I see all the years worth of garbage. Im waiting a week on the lawyer as I know the confrontation threw me off but I see absolutely nothing worth saving in this M. The kids are better off with one parent being healthy instead of watching the healthier one get continually punished by the unhealthy.
I found out W told even more complete lies about me to another friend. Stuff goes around, her friend reached out to me as at least this one knew im not that crazy. She's painting me black to everyone and in my mind as an innocent female victim is gaining support. BPD, NPD, or just WW, whatever it is, is just getting worse. I'm finishing my D prep the next few days then filing. I dont love someone who hates me, I dont love someone who tries to disassemble my relationships with others. Safety and sanity first. Was more important than battling her disorder the rest of my life. My IC told me these are massive red flags. Yeah he's not the best IC but still, I cannot live in this sitch. How long till she targets my relationship with my family, my kids?
Journaling:
Im back on the thoughts of W having BPD, the latest:
W: be careful while pouring milk
W: stop when the milks high
D4: *spills* oops, sorry mommy
W: why didn't you listen to me, thats not nice
D4: i got distracted
W: you shouldnt ignore mommy, now theres a mess
D4: i didnt ignore mommy, i was distracted
W: you didnt listen
D4: sorry mommy
Core: im in the clock, Ill miss time while youre getting medicine so I wont be able to take the kids out during my lunch.
W: it feels like your blaming me
Core: im sorry you feel that way, work is important and Im not going to push the limits on my time. Ill take them out after work.
W: youre blaming me and making me angry. I tired of being angry at you so often.
This continued on till I told her I had to work.
This is going to be a really messy D and I think Im going to spend a small fortune for the kids (worth it) to keep them in counseling over the years. The convos now with D4 scare me. D4 is starting to walk on eggshells and often has to apologize. W expects the same of me. I tell the kids, "i love bobbling you". When im swinging them around. W feels like i use the word incorrectly to hurt her and asked me to stop. Not only does she have to control my actions but my words themselves.
Whether BPD or something else, this is not healthy and the kids and I need a safe place. This is all minor, passive and covert but it adds up to a whole lot. Im not having one last chat with W. Unless I see her go to intensive therapy, I am not going to accept her back if she tries. It would all be a charade. I sincerely hope I am not painted black to my kids. I pray to my god for them and myself. Theres no way I get more than 50/50 custody at this point. I was even for it before but now when I see w handle D4 conflict and D4s nervous reactions, I see where my own anxiety formed and why it went from being in my background to a daily obstacle.
Core -
Divorce is not going to solve your attachment issues with W. All it is is a piece of paper recognized by the government.
I would recommend you learn how to detach. Until you do, everything W does will affect your emotions and your well being.
Read the thread on detachment.
Take care, man.
Core, good job at listening and validating even when she's being a b****. It all sounds pretty miserable, if you have to pursue D to save yourself then do what you need to do. I don't see her changing as long as the limbo continues.
But I do agree with IW regarding detachment, D doesn't necessarily lead to detachment. My brother has been D'd for over 10 years and still isn't detached. I mean he doesn't pine away for his XW, but he is still convinced that she is responsible for his financial woes, his lack of interest in dating, etc. And that too is a form of attachment.
Journaling:
Im back on the thoughts of W having BPD, the latest:
W: be careful while pouring milk
W: stop when the milks high
D4: *spills* oops, sorry mommy
W: why didn't you listen to me, thats not nice
D4: i got distracted
W: you shouldnt ignore mommy, now theres a mess
D4: i didnt ignore mommy, i was distracted
W: you didnt listen
D4: sorry mommy
Core, how does disciplining a child who isn't paying attention BPD?
Your daughter was told to be careful and then wasn't careful. I applaud your wife for this interaction, she did what a good parent does.
^^^ I was wondering the same thing. I’m pretty sure I may have had a similar interaction with my daughter when she was 4.....
Hi Core,
Like OverTheRainbow, I don't see the Mother-Daughter interaction as terrible. If D4 got distracted, she wasn't careful, which means she either didn't listen to or ignored mom's instructions.
I know validating isnt agreeing but I am not going to validate something thats invalid.
Validating is acknowledging their feelings--e.g., sad, angry, frustrated, etc. A feeling isn't wrong or invalid. Facts may be. Actions may be. Responding defensively won't help your relationship--romantic or coparenting.
W: it feels like your blaming me
Core: im sorry you feel that way, work is important and Im not going to push the limits on my time. Ill take them out after work.
She FEELS LIKE you're blaming her. This is a great time for an intervention!
You: Oh no! What do you feel like I'm blaming you for?
Her: Obviously, for D4 missing out on daddy time during lunch.
You: I think D4 will be almost as happy to have daddy time while you get your medicine.
Her: But you two will miss Spongebob. The Spongebob finale!
You: Your medicine's important. I suspect D4 would be just as happy this one time.. if we recorded Spongebob and then set aside a special time to watch it tonight.. with popcorn!
W: youre blaming me and making me angry. I tired of being angry at you so often.
This continued on till I told her I had to work.
She's ANGRY and says you're actually blaming her. This is a great time for an intervention!
You: Wow. I can see you're angry.
Her: Yes. Again.
You: I'm sorry I wasn't listening a minute ago. It sounds like you feel like I'm blaming you. Is that right?
Her: Yes! I feel like you're blaming me.
You: What do you feel like I'm blaming you for?
AS, glad to see you back on the board. Hope all has been well.
AS and IW, thank you for the feedback. I hope W doesnt see this and murder me in my sleep (slightly joking). Where im confused on detachment...I would be ok for myself at this point (not the kids) if W was out of the picture and living her own life. Preferably with happiness. If anybody, close to me or not says something hurtful, I will be hurt on some level. W saying hurtful things, hurts. Is it actually possible to completely turn that off?
Ovr, telling my D she isnt nice because she spilled while trying to pour a gallon of milk is what scares me. She could hear my W, she didnt ignore her. She didnt try to spill, it was an accident. Heres how i handled it with water, I forget exact words.
D4: can i pour the water?
Core: sure, when the cup is almost full, lift up the jug so it stops pouring, its heavy.
D4: *spills* oops, i spilled
Core: it happens, *grabs paper towels* please start cleaning up while i put the water away.
D4: ok dada
Core: do you know why it spilled?
D4: its too heavy!
Core: we'll try again another time
Ovr, telling my D she isnt nice because she spilled while trying to pour a gallon of milk is what scares me. She could hear my W, she didnt ignore her.
Nothing to get scared about.
You said that you D4 told your W "I got distracted" after being told to pay attention by your W.
Like you said, it happens, but I would have disciplined the same as your W.
Is it actually possible to completely turn that off?
Well, you turned it on with your internal discourse, so I do believe you can turn it off. I've been reading the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, but started with The Inner Citadel. Great stuff for situations like this.
W: why didn't you listen to me, thats not nice
Ovr, telling my D she isnt nice because she spilled while trying to pour a gallon of milk is what scares me.
Core, labeling D4 ("You are not nice") and labeling D4's actions ("That is not nice"), are different. I get you prefer a softer parenting style. There are many reasonable parenting styles.
CW, G, Ovr, thanks for the responses on Ws parenting. If you all agree then I'm the one over thinking and overreacting.
Well, you turned it on with your internal discourse, so I do believe you can turn it off. I've been reading the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, but started with The Inner Citadel. Great stuff for situations like this.
Got my interest here. I like YouTube stuff on stoicism so I imagine books can add a whole new level. So far are you liking them? When it comes to books like that im abnormal in a way. I dont want to read them when life is chaos. I want to read them when its a peace. I realize I've got a few peacetime activities lined up but maybe they'll help bring me peace if I follow them now.
Validating is acknowledging their feelings--e.g., sad, angry, frustrated, etc. A feeling isn't wrong or invalid. Facts may be. Actions may be. Responding defensively won't help your relationship--romantic or coparenting.
True. Responding defensively helps in no way I can think ok.
She FEELS LIKE you're blaming her. This is a great time for an intervention!
You: Oh no! What do you feel like I'm blaming you for?
Her: Obviously, for D4 missing out on daddy time during lunch.
You: I think D4 will be almost as happy to have daddy time while you get your medicine.
Her: But you two will miss Spongebob. The Spongebob finale!
You: Your medicine's important. I suspect D4 would be just as happy this one time.. if we recorded Spongebob and then set aside a special time to watch it tonight.. with popcorn!
I wish convos could be like that. Thats how interactions I have with others and past romantic partners have been at times. I just...I can't believe someone would even be offended by me working my normally scheduled shift. This is how convos look with my W:
Her: You're targeting me (or attacking me, hurt me, etc...real life examples, leaving a dish on the counter, not being ok with S1 playing in a moldy basement, threw out expired food)
Core: I'm sorry you're feeling attacked. What caused you to feel this way?
Her: You
Core: What did I say or do that was upsetting?
Her: Nothing
2 days later
Core: You look upset, is anything wrong?
Her: No
Core: Ok
3 weeks of stonewalling later, I dont even remember the original convo...
Core: Will you just tell me what's wrong, I know you're holding something in
Her: Its nothing
Core: Just tell me, I dont believe you
Her: You did X (something completely normal, or held a boundary, or didnt allow her to control me) and you dont trust me
Core: You've been upset about that this whole time? And I didnt believe you because something was wrong and youre admitting to it just now.
Her: yes, thats what I said, im mad about X and because you dont trust me
Core: I feel like youve blocked me out for weeks because of that, I wish you couldve told me sooner.
Her: you didnt ask
Then slowly I would either give in and lose a boundary to prevent stonewalls, lose part of my identity or battle and receive either longer stonewalls or sometimes intimacy for confronting.
Months later
Her: why did you stop doing X?
Core: Because it really bothered you in the past
Her: You misunderstood me and have a bad memory. Youre remembering wrong.
Core: You shut me out for weeks...I remember that happening
Her: I never did that
I question and doubt my own memory. Maybe I did do such and such wrong. Let me apologize for hurting my W.
Core: I apologize for X
Her: thank you
Core: how do you feel about my side of the story, I felt shut out for weeks
Her: that didnt happen, youre always trying to start a fight.
Ladies and gents, its interactions like the above that caused me to pull out emotionally. Its one of many reasons why I think there is a disorder or at minimum cptsd at play. I'm slowly filling with hate. Not resentment. Its hate and I dont like how it feels. I have to leave the sitch, for me and the kids. Life is about love, support and having fun.
What convos *looked* like. Past tense. Theyre a bit different now on my end.
I realize you said this is what convos were like in the past, and that they have changed, but I wanted to delve into this a little not just for you but for whoever is reading this:
Her: You're targeting me (or attacking me, hurt me, etc...real life examples, leaving a dish on the counter, not being ok with S1 playing in a moldy basement, threw out expired food)
Core: I'm sorry you're feeling attacked. What caused you to feel this way?
One of the main topics of Retrouvaille is that we all have our feelings, and we are all entitled to our feelings. You may think your W's feelings are wrong or invalid for a particular situation, but nevertheless, it's how she feels and it is important to acknowledge her feelings. So in RV parlance, in the above case your response should be "how did that make you feel?" instead of "what caused you to feel this way?" Because what you are trying to get to the root of is HOW she feels, not WHY. The why doesn't really matter. What she wants is for you to know how she feels and to allow her to feel that way.
"I hear you saying you think I am targeting you, how does that make you feel?"
"I'm upset and frustrated, you never blah blah blah and you always blah blah blah."
So she shared a little about her feelings and simultaneously attacked you. Ignore the attack and focus on the feelings:
"Yes you do sound upset and frustrated. I am sorry I made you feel that way."
Notice you are not apologizing for what you did, you're apologizing for making her feel a certain way. In fact you may not think you did anything wrong. You left a dish on the counter, so what. BUT IT'S A BIG DEAL TO HER, it made her upset, so you apologize for making her feel that way even if you think it's silly or ridiculous that she is bothered by a dish on the counter. Now here is the magic of this process, NOW she feelings like you are LISTENING to her, and you are allowing her to have her feelings so she no longer feels the need to fight/ argue about it. Usually what happens next is something you're not expecting. SHE will apologize or express regret.
"I guess leaving a dish on the counter is really no big deal, I'm sorry I got mad about it."
2 days later
Core: You look upset, is anything wrong?
Her: No
Core: Ok
Another point they make in RV is not to ask if something is "wrong" because that puts the person on the defensive. You are inadvertently calling her feelings "wrong". Instead, just ask how she's feeling.
"How are you feeling today, you seem upset, is that how you feel?"
It may seem like a minor difference but asking what is wrong will almost always get a "I'm fine" or "nothing" type of response whereas asking how she feels will encourage her to open up. Also maybe she's not upset, but you've opened the door for her to share what she's feeling.
"I'm not upset, just frustrated over XYZ."
"I can see why that would be frustrating, I'm sorry you're struggling with XYZ."
There have been times where my GF just shut down on me and I assumed she was mad at me or I did something wrong. If I ask "what's wrong" I'll get the "nothing" response, because she tends to internalize things and doesn't want to talk about it. But if I ask her how she's feeling, she almost always will share it.
This is an actual example of a time I thought GF was mad at me for something, I didn't hear from her for over a day and then got a very snippy message:
"You seem angry, is that how you feel?"
"No I'm frustrated because of (D12), I found out she's been sexting with boys in her school and trading lewd pictures."
So here I was thinking she was mad at me, but I fought the urge to say "why are you mad at me" (which also sounds selfish, like I'm trying to make everything about me) and instead asked about her feelings only to find out something else was going on that she was upset about (and rightfully so).
Core: Will you just tell me what's wrong, I know you're holding something in
Her: Its nothing
Again this puts her on the defensive and her walls go up. Her response is completely normal for a challenge like that.
Core: Just tell me, I dont believe you
And then you call her a liar, yikes! If she says nothing is wrong then just move on to the next subject. Maybe she'll open up about it later.
Her: You did X (something completely normal, or held a boundary, or didnt allow her to control me) and you dont trust me
Core: You've been upset about that this whole time? And I didnt believe you because something was wrong and youre admitting to it just now. I hear you saying that (XYZ action) makes you feel like you can't trust me, is that how you're feeling?
Remember, her feelings are her feelings whether you think they're valid or not.
Her: yes, thats what I said, im mad about X and because you dont trust me
Core: I feel like youve blocked me out for weeks because of that, I wish you couldve told me sooner. So I did X which made you feel mad and like you can't trust me. I am sorry I made you feel that way, I will work on this in the future. Thank you for sharing this with me.
Make sure that you understand validation, and that you REALLY ARE validating and not just -thinking- you are validating. Sometimes someone here will say "my spouse said XYZ and I validated but it went poorly" and I'll ask them to describe the conversation and it turns out they did not validate at all. Validation is very misunderstood and can be a disaster if not done properly.
Journaling:
Im back on the thoughts of W having BPD, the latest:
W: be careful while pouring milk
W: stop when the milks high
D4: *spills* oops, sorry mommy
W: why didn't you listen to me, thats not nice
D4: i got distracted
W: you shouldnt ignore mommy, now theres a mess
D4: i didnt ignore mommy, i was distracted
W: you didnt listen
D4: sorry mommy
Core, how does disciplining a child who isn't paying attention BPD?
Your daughter was told to be careful and then wasn't careful. I applaud your wife for this interaction, she did what a good parent does.
Except, who expects a 4 year-old to pour milk properly?!?
Core, stop apologizing for how she feels.
Learn to validate without "I'm sorry."
"I understand." "So you are saying you feel X......" Etc.
Her feelings are not your responsibility and you shouldn't apologize when she feels certain ways. Validation is about understanding how she feels, not apologizing for it. I take issue with validation statements that include "I am sorry."
Well AS, you did something I didn't think could happen at this point. You knocked me back out of being 100 percent sure I'm ready to move on. Its guilt thats stopping me know. Not your fault by any means. Seeing the holes you poked in to our communications, I see how some more of this is my fault or something I could've done differently. I know whats going to happen though, as a WAS would, I'm going to find something else or validation to bring me back to 100 percent certain. As others pointed out with me not being fully detached, I still look for positives as well. There arent many.
I don't like what seems to work. What I mean by that..W has been in my mind causing conflict all day. She eventually said, "youre going to put the dishes away". I said, "you're going to ask me respectfully". I know, there is so much wrong with my response, I was utterly sick of her stuff and didnt care. She responded, "can you please put the dishes away"? She was nicer, more cheerful and alive for the rest of the day, even when the kids became a handful. If talking to her like that works, well I dont like it. For her and moreso for D4 and S. I dont want them to learn it.
Steve-good point on spilling milk. I thought that at one point as well. Of course a 4yo will spill milk, especially a gallon size. "No use crying over spilled milk". My parents would get upset at things like that which I think impacted my confidence and brought on some anxiety. As a kid, you feel blamed and think well, I just wont do it again or I cant do anything right.
Noted on the saying sorry when validating. I agree there. Both sides kind of make sense. Its like saying sorry a loved one passed away. It does seem like W makes her feelings my responsibility and if I say sorry, in her mind I may be guilty. Mayne a mix of your approach and ASs. AS, retro almost sounds good for life skills in general. It sounds like you got alot from it. I'm glad you went through the efforts to clean up how my old communications were. I can see I've got room for improvements as Im better now, but no where near like you wrote, especially at times of stress.
Well AS, you did something I didn't think could happen at this point. You knocked me back out of being 100 percent sure I'm ready to move on.
Great! Divorce isn't the end of the world, but it will impact your kids. With 50/50 custody, you're not insulating your kids from experiencing her parenting style, you're insulating yourself from it.
Seeing the holes you poked in to our communications, I see how some more of this is my fault or something I could've done differently.
Obviously, her communication could use work as well. "Youre going to put the dishes away" is controlling. "You're going to ask me respectfully" is also controlling. High criticism and defense. Low listening and validation. As AnotherStander says, a change on one side can have a surprising impact. In many situations I'm like, "Move on! They're a lying cheater." Here I see hope, if you could be the first to change. It doesn't always work but improving communication is worth a shot. Worst-case, it'll help with co-parenting.
Hi Core,
I hope you've been trying or about to try some of the communication changes suggested here.
Have a great weekend!
Hi CW,
Nice to see you checking in on me. Overall, I'm avoiding non logistics interactions as much as possible now however if a conflict does come up, I do intend to handle them with some enhanced validation. Cant say ill always be able to. If I'm not, Im going to either try brushing things off, or avoiding/leaving the situation.
We all know myself or my counselor cannot diagnose someone, especially with something as serious as a full blown disorder. What is reality and known however is that W is often exhibiting those traits. Whether its a disorder or not, its not ok. I know I cant link on here but if you search for quiet bpd, its pretty spot on to what I've been experiencing with W. If you look up trauma bond, its very much what I've gone through here. I think I finally broke from it. No going back however I still want to treat W with respect, and compassion as another human and mother of my kids. Before all her trauma or somewhere in her, she probably acted like my D4 or S whom are wonderful.
Unchien said before I'm a few paces behind him. It seems more true everyday.
Hey Core,
If she does have BPD, one of the best tools you have for interacting is validation. So, either BDP or not, you should probably work on the validation skills. It is helpful in every relationship and even more so for a relationship with someone with BPD.
Hey All,
I'm out of the fog. I've been looking back on things and see just how one sided the relationship was with W and I. There are so many red flags I overlooked, missed, ignored or thought would change. I'm still glad I married as I wouldn't have these wonderful kids. Now though as I prep for the possible worst here, I no longer hang my head in shame or longing. Disappointment, yes, shame no. Finding two places to live, and daycare, and affording it all is going to be hard. The drain of resources and energy in the process will be hard to feeling impossible depending how it goes. I expect high conflict and prepped my lawyer for such if we D.
I'm going to take a short break here and I concentrate on myself and what I need to do to keep on my improvements, and to give my kids a better outcome. I plan on returning soon, avoiding my sitch for the most part as recommended by lawyer.
I've gone back on some improvements as a wave of depression and reality rolled over me. I'll get back where I was then further along soon enough. One of many hurdles. My son is talking now. His sister and I are thrilled as our dynamic is much different as hes seemingly learning a new word every few days. My L said to keep my existing IC in case needed if we go the D route and his feedback is needed. I am now aligned. I now feel like I'm doing whats right. I wasnt before. I thank all of you that helped and supported me the last several months here. Good luck on your sitches and improvements.
Core, not sure I agree with your lawyer here. Posting here for me was cathartic. The 2x4s kept me accountable. The perspectives helped me to see my sitch in ways I never could on my own. Coming here can help you keep your focus on you and your kids, and off of your sitch, not the other way around. The focus on your sitch starts just north of your neck, not in posting on this forum. So not posting here likely won't help you avoid your sitch, as your own mind is what keeps you so focused on it.
If not posting helps you not obsess, then fine. But I found that posting here helped me not obsess.
I agree with you Steve. I could not have gotten through this without this board and posting about it led to me obsessing a whole lot less, I think. But...to each his own. Best of luck Core. (((HUGS)))
Best wishes, Core. Please provide an update when you can.
I couldn't have gotten through things without posting on this board.
I also think posting on this board led me to obsess too much some times. It worked well when I limited the time I would post.
I filed.
This was against my morals, my religion and all ideas I formed my entire life.
Part of my soul feels crushed because of this. I dont know how I'll look at my kids today when I see them, knowing I just ended their family unit. They barely had a glimpse at a normal family. Especially my son. I know my feelings will change with time. I know this has become the better option for them. Still, these two innocent little beings are going to run around like normal, not knowing this is all going to change very, very quickly. Why were they brought in to the world only to face hardship so young? They arent the only ones and people have it worse I know. Still, as they sing finger family and baby shark songs, I'll suffer on the inside.
This is horrible but it had to be done. The woman I loved is completely gone and I need to move on with the kids for my own sanity and to provide at least one clean, safe home.
C,
I am sorry it has come to this but I think under the current circumstances it is your best option. I do not think things were going to change with the two of you living together.
Just be a rock for your kids and they will be fine.
Stay strong man!
Thank you LH, and those whom posted before my last post.
I dont know what im going to face, hell on earth, her groveling, or a peaceful D. I'm prepared for all three routes. If she tries to work on the M, I know its fake and wont last, just like marriage counseling years ago. My L is confident that I'll have a reasonable outcome.
Ive yet to figure out what to do with the kids, especially with the virus going around. Daycares prob have openings at least, they'll just be highly exposed.
I dont know what im going to face, hell on earth, her groveling, or a peaceful D. I'm prepared for all three routes. If she tries to work on the M, I know its fake and wont last, just like marriage counseling years ago. My L is confident that I'll have a reasonable outcome.
Core,
My guess is you will follow none of those 3 routes exactly. Be ready to live in the present, and focus on yourself and your kids.
It's heart-breaking to go through this with kids, I know. But your kids are better off with happy parents than unhappy parents.
I strongly encourage you to take a parenting and/or co-parenting class. I took both in the past year and they helped me immensely - especially the co-parenting class. So much of the advice overlaps with DB. Powerful stuff.
I agree with U about everything.
You don't do these things to provoke a reaction. You do them because after thinking calmly and rationally about the situation, you have made your decision and you are okay living with it.
Mind-reading is a waste of your time, your energy, and your life. You cannot predict the future.
Stay strong
Thank you guys. Hard staying away from these boards. I decided to stick around during the process and to just not discuss any of the finer details here.
As usual with my posts, events have me spinning a bit. W was served a couple days ago. She chatted with me a couple times since. Asking me what to do, what I want. Blaming me for filing and not discussing it. Says she was still figuiring out what she wanted to do. She had a few blatant lies in the discussions. What has me confused though is how normal she is acting. Like not angry, not sad. Totally stable. Thats a good thing dont get me wrong. Im surprised to see it. Im surprised she had no plan for Ding yet. None. Not sure what she did the past few months. Im also shocked that someone can be discussing the end of an M with little to no emotion. I realise a part of me was hoping she'd at least be upset. Ive seen myself as valuable so the easy discards affecting me a bit. Also this makes me seem like the crazier unstable one. Such as, how am I the only one upset, how does she have no guilt, if shes this stable while talking D, then surely the problem is me. Easy in those moments of discussions to forget whats occurred the last few months.
I wonder how much W was making up during the chats and what was manipulating. She's talking sense in the discussions or it seems that way.
Its so much more real now. Back when they served her, it felt official. As I've mostly been checked out since March it should be easier but her seeming so normal and stable has me feeling guilty. Time may tell if this was the right choice. I'm inches closer to seeing my kids less, the 2nd worst part of all for me. What they'll feel is the worst. Third worst is raising them solo. Not just a couple years but their whole lives as they are so young.
Hoping you all have some 2x4s or something to club me with. I was 100% sure when I filed, I know shes not good for me, I know I'll be just fine yet my workouts are lacking, anxiety is seeping in a bit more and a few conversations have me doubting what I did was right. Just awful facing the last few days.
You're focused on her reactions. Hopefully that's not why you filed.
Regarding your kids, all I can say is my own relationship with my kids is way deeper now than it was when I saw them everyday during the MR. Quality over time. You'll be fine if you keep your focus on them.
It's an anxious time, have compassion for yourself. I think it's going to be hard for you to detach from her reactions.
Core -
I agree again with U. It reads like you are trying to see if she will react to what you do, and that you may be hoping it will snap her out of it.
The reason she said it seems sudden is because for her - it is. Timelines do not matter here, as I've said before. I've also written to you several times before that there is no logic here. From what you wrote about her reaction, it sounds like she is squarely in that zone. Applying logic to someone who lacks logic will not work.
I would seriously think about what you want to do. If you're having that many doubts about your decision, you may need to do some soul-searching and figure out what it is you really want. I would spend some time discussing it in IC.
Read other posters here. Do a lot of reading. For example, look up DnJ, read the MLC resources top to bottom. I think you will find a lot there that can help you.
Find a way to stop reacting when she reacts. Like U said - detach.
Take care - stay strong
I'm sure on the decision here to D. I didn't D for a reaction but rather to get me and the kids to a more stable environment. I reached my limit of neglect, criticism, control and see myself as valuable enough to move away from that.
The reason she said it seems sudden is because for her - it is. Timelines do not matter here, as I've said before. I've also written to you several times before that there is no logic here. From what you wrote about her reaction, it sounds like she is squarely in that zone. Applying logic to someone who lacks logic will not work.
If thats true, its just so unfortunate for her. I haven't seen a tear shed over her ending the M, ruining her kids chance at a nuclear family, the pain the kids will experience over the years. The only time she seems upset is when she realizes she'll see the kids less.
I see I'm still hoping for a real apology....sorry its come to this, sorry I drove you to file, sorry for hurting you, its my fault for such and such. How does one plan to be amicable and coparent without ever cleaning up the damage they did.
13 years and no real apology over here. You have to learn to live without one
I'm sure on the decision here to D. I didn't D for a reaction but rather to get me and the kids to a more stable environment. I reached my limit of neglect, criticism, control and see myself as valuable enough to move away from that.
If thats true, its just so unfortunate for her.
Yes it is. That's why it's a crisis. That's why we have compassion for what they are going through - all is not right in their world.
I haven't seen a tear shed over her ending the M, ruining her kids chance at a nuclear family, the pain the kids will experience over the years. The only time she seems upset is when she realizes she'll see the kids less.
See above.
I see I'm still hoping for a real apology....sorry its come to this, sorry I drove you to file, sorry for hurting you, its my fault for such and such.
Those are expectations. You may never get those things. Read DnJ's thread if you want to know what that's like.
How does one plan to be amicable and coparent without ever cleaning up the damage they did.
Forgiveness is a two way street. You can start working on forgiving her. What she does is not in your control.
What if you didn't care? What if you let her be? What if you just went on with your life?
As usual with my posts, events have me spinning a bit. W was served a couple days ago. She chatted with me a couple times since. Asking me what to do, what I want. Blaming me for filing and not discussing it. Says she was still figuiring out what she wanted to do. She had a few blatant lies in the discussions. What has me confused though is how normal she is acting. Like not angry, not sad. Totally stable. Thats a good thing dont get me wrong. Im surprised to see it.
This is a standard behavior for WWs. They will not show you emotion.
Im surprised she had no plan for Ding yet. None. Not sure what she did the past few months. Im also shocked that someone can be discussing the end of an M with little to no emotion.
See above
I realise a part of me was hoping she'd at least be upset. Ive seen myself as valuable so the easy discards affecting me a bit.
You didn't get the reaction you wanted. Very predictable
Also this makes me seem like the crazier unstable one.
Core I am sorry but you are the more emotionally unstable one.
Such as, how am I the only one upset, how does she have no guilt, if shes this stable while talking D, then surely the problem is me.
She just has a better handle on her emotions than you. If you remember I encouraged you to give it time until you were emotionally stronger.
I wonder how much W was making up during the chats and what was manipulating. She's talking sense in the discussions or it seems that way.
Mindreading. Waster of time.
Its so much more real now. Back when they served her, it felt official. As I've mostly been checked out since March it should be easier but her seeming so normal and stable has me feeling guilty.
I am confused as to why that makes you feel guilty. Sounds to me like you are heading for a pretty amicable D in which you both want.
Hoping you all have some 2x4s or something to club me with. I was 100% sure when I filed, I know shes not good for me, I know I'll be just fine yet my workouts are lacking, anxiety is seeping in a bit more and a few conversations have me doubting what I did was right. Just awful facing the last few days.
Again, seem to me that it went about as good as one could hope. I must be missing something.
I'm sure on the decision here to D. I didn't D for a reaction but rather to get me and the kids to a more stable environment. I reached my limit of neglect, criticism, control and see myself as valuable enough to move away from that.
Ok. Great! Then move forward with an amicable D and move on with you life.
I see I'm still hoping for a real apology....sorry its come to this, sorry I drove you to file, sorry for hurting you, its my fault for such and such. How does one plan to be amicable and coparent without ever cleaning up the damage they did.
Are you going to apologize for your role in this situation? Why can't you coparent amicably? Again I am really confused. You want a D and she wants a D. That should set up perfectly to coparent.
You can amiCably coparent because you coparent for your kids benefit . Amicably coparenting is for the kids, not for you, not for her, not for the Marriage, not for your relationship with your ex.
I have made it this far amicably coparenting because I have placed the focus on what my best outcome for my child is, not on my personal feelings towards the end of our marriage and the betrayal. And I have to deal with the ex and his affair partner.
You have to make it not about you, and just the kids
This was good to read, thank you IW, LH and Ginger.
IW, good point on forgiveness. Something I'll look in to more. I don't want to forgive someone whom isnt seeking forgiveness but I know that only hurts me. The principle bugs me, you did X hurting all of us yet are facing almost no repercussions.
LH you're right that I'm more unstable than her. How one turns off the emotion I dont get. Its like she completely separates and ignores it. For me, its there till I face and resolve it. I suppose the problem is that this wasnt amicable at first. It took months of living with this version of her to get there. You are right that its going about as good as one would hope....im surprised it is. Her reactions when I took the MBR, asked for mediation, confronted her affair were way different. Emotionally charged then and with conflict. For my role in the situation, I apologized from the heart a few times months back. Sincerely, thoroughly and thoughtfully.
Good points Ginger. What gets me is shes asking if she can still come over to see the kids, still do stuff as a family. Why would I want to do any of it with someone who did what she did?
For my role in the situation, I apologized from the heart a few times months back. Sincerely, thoroughly and thoughtfully.
That's good. I bet it made you feel better.
Good points Ginger. What gets me is shes asking if she can still come over to see the kids, still do stuff as a family. Why would I want to do any of it with someone who did what she did?
Just tell her you don't feel comfortable with that arrangement.
Core I think you are going to have a tough time playing the victim when you filed. Again I am not saying filing was wrong. I just mean you have to stop playing the victim.
Remember that you can't force someone to have feeling for you.
17 years together, 15 years married. BD to divorce in less than 3 months. 18 months out and no apology, no tears shed, seems thrilled to be rid of me.
Don't even worry about that. Co-parent the best you can for your kids. That should be your primary focus.
Core,
Just shake your head no with a little smile on your face that says "That's ridiculous!"
-Spiral