This is my new thread!
This is my old thread
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2883909&page=9It ended with a surprising insight I got in my IC, about the current state of affairs between me and my H not being enough. I had to sit with that a few days.
I also had some news - some very good news - about my work. I've got a significant pay rise and a lot more job flexibility and security than I did a few months ago.
So I am practically in an ideal position to make some drastic changes, if I want to.
But I have also been thinking about boundaries - about how tight my boundaries are with my H, and about how and in what ways my own boundaries are responsible for the acquaintance-level intimate bond we have with each other.
These boundaries were necessary when he was in an EA, blaming me for his EA, being emotionally and verbally abusive and manipulative. I don't think any of those things are happening right now, or at least, not with any degree of regularity.
I do think I have some lingering sense of betrayal and mistrust and fear around him and his reactions. This affects my behaviour.
I want to unpick this more in IC. But mainly I want to work on my own recovery after the bruising last couple of years - the pain and betrayal of the EA and the abuse - and see where my survival strategies have involved me refusing to get vulnerable with H and whether or not I can or want to change that.
Hi Alison, just wanna let you know that what you’ve posted in May’s thread is gold. I will probably go back and reread often. Thank you for your words.
Hi Alison,
That is really great news about work! I am going to guess that knowing you are in a place where some of the factors that may have held might open you up to feeling freer to consider implementing some changes in your R when the time is right. And, you have a right to feel those feelings of mistrust and betrayal and fear-- you came by them honestly. I think it is important to keep examining them, though, in the context of what is happening *now*, and be open to considering that perhaps some have served their purpose and can be freed.
xoxo
I think that's right, May. For the longest time I was not able to have good boundaries with my H and I am still astonished at the behaviour I tolerated (and allowed from myself). It isn't like that any more, but I don't seem to be able to lower the boundaries even a little bit and I do struggle to forgive my previous self for being such a wailing doormat.
I am extremely suspicious of him. Not that he is in an EA - he is still very transparent over that - his tech and where he is and what time he will be back - it's kind of automatic for him now to let me know when he's leaving work, or if he's been delayed, and I trust and appreciate that (and if I left the house ever at the moment (!!), I'd be willing to do the same for him), and there are no 'signs' that I recognise from last time.
I am suspicious that he's not in this with me for the right reasons. That he is being dishonest with me and himself. I am worried he wants the house and the kids and the security and no social stigma of a failed marriage, and for that to work in his mind, he still needs to be this victim of a crazy wife, and that's a story I don't listen to or participate in any more, and I'm not sure we know any other dance moves to do together.
I know he responds really well to appreciation, and there are many things he is going that I can honestly and genuinely verbally appreciate right now. I also know he's having a really intense and traumatic time at work (this is not an excuse - he works in medicine and it's awful for him right now) and I need to weigh that in here, and know that his natural response is to withdraw and my natural response is to read the worst possible motivations into that.
Congrats on the job, that's great!
Wailing doormat made me laugh! Speaking of laughter, is there any in your M? Can you put some in your M? Your M just seems so serious and you are not a serious person. Yes, being vulnerable is hard and scary (I'm realising this myself, and how little of myself I gave to my H) but perhaps the main way through is through humour instead of difficult R talks. Just a suggestion.
Wanting domestic security and not to be Ded are no small motives, Alison. Not reason enough to stay married, but still powerful motives which you can build on maybe?
Not sure what I'm saying here, but you have to let down your walls little by little if your M has a chance of surviving. And he needs to do the same, I'm not sure if you think he's capable of that, but at least give him the chance instead of assuming the worst. And maybe with a little joke or two x
That's a very good question, Dilly.
We do have a laugh sometimes. He likes to tease me, and often goes too far, but we did have this great friendship based on a similar sense of very dark humour and I do miss that. We used to tease each other a lot, and I guess he feels I go to far sometimes, as more often than not these days we both fail to be able to laugh at ourselves and our foibles the way we used to. I think about what FS said earlier in my last thread, about the energy being sucked out of the room because so much is being held back, and yes, I think we're both just tip-toeing around each other a lot these days.
Hard night tonight. Eldest in an irritable mood, and a minor disagreement over how to deal with it. I went upstairs to talk to Eldest, who'd stormed away over something trivial, then went for a shower. Then I came downstairs and said 'did you speak to Eldest? What can I do to support you?' (My precise words) which triggered one of his horrible rants.
I had RUBBISH boundaries. He was a nasty bully, ranting and interrupting. He gets in this state where he asks me a question, I try to answer, he interrupts me to do an impression of me giving an answer that he imagines (and 9 times out of 10 he is totally wrong in his ridiculous and deliberately belittling dramatisation of what he thinks I would have said if he'd allowed me to get a word in edgewise) then argues back at himself as if I'd said the thing he'd done an impersonation of me saying. He was totally irrational - going on like this, ranting and shouting, and accusing me of hysterics when I barely got a chance to say anything. I try to speak and he interrupts me, and when I carry on speaking over his interruption, he tells me 'You're not allowed to talk when I'm talking,' so I sit there being ranted at knowing that if I lose my temper or get upset, he's got precisely what he's after, which is this crazy emotional wife he thinks he's saddled with.
I sat calmly, asked him to keep his voice down at least six times, when he finally ran out of steam I said, 'I want to solve this with you rationally and have an adult conversation but you're acting like a bully and it isn't acceptable,' and that triggered another massive rant on his part - he said he wasn't responsible for any of his behaviour, that I'd caused it all by not doing what he said I should do regarding Eldest (it was an incredibly minor thing - I said both kids needed to get in the kitchen and do dishes before bed, and he wanted them to do it separately so they wouldn't bicker, but what that means is that Eldest does everything and Youngest hangs around waiting for him to finish and Eldest really resents that so I told them to get in there and do it together, and then they did start bickering) and if I wasn't going to do as I was told, I deserved everything I got. He really has an extremely immature and hateful, nasty side when he's riled. I was so furious I went out for a drive, and now I am back he's sleeping elsewhere, snoring away and stinking of beer.
What I should have done is what I usually do which is to leave the room the second he starts with even a tiny bit of his rage-performance. I guess I thought if I could take care of my own emotions, stay calm and try and connect with him rationally, we'd be able to make progress and I could demonstrate I wanted to collaborate with him and that I cared about what he thought - I wanted to try something other than just leaving the room whenever he acts in a way I don't like. But when he's angry - and he really was angry - he's irrational and downright mean. He said Eldest was damaged, was emotionally retarded, was ruined by my awful parenting, that it was all my fault, that I was just like my own awful parents, that I was brain-dead as I kept on doing the same things and not learning from the consequences... I spoke over him at some point, and said something like, 'I understand what your issue is, but if you're not even going to let me get a word in, how can we fix anything?' - I raised my voice but I didn't shout or scream - then he laughed sarcastically and said I was screaming and shouting at him, having hysteria because I couldn't bear to be told what to do, etc etc.
I can see why he was frustrated with me. I didn't interfere with his parenting but I did tell the kids to do something I know he doesn't approve of and they did bicker a bit, and I told them to pack it in and get on with it, then went for a shower. I don't know. Maybe my judgment is off but this just seems like a really minor part of lockdown family life - kids squabbling over chores - and not the massive slight to his ego (he said 'you're constantly making a little b*tch out of me' which suggests he felt emasculated or something?) - he seems to think it is. I know I should validate his emotions, but he doesn't say 'I feel angry' he says 'Eldest is emotionally retarded because he's just like you and you have ruined him and I won't be blamed for what a failure he is going to be' and there's nothing in that I can validate. Perhaps it is better to get the kids to do their evening chores separately and his preference was better. But in his eyes my making a misjudgement there this entirely excuses the way he treated me and in my eyes it really doesn't.
I wish I hadn't exposed myself to that as I'm hanging in this marriage by a thread as it is and don't have much energy to forgive or overlook more of his bullying.
I used to get really frightened and panicky when he treated me like this and he treated me like this every single day for years. That fear of him went away, and was replaced by contempt - and even though these tantrums from him are much rarer than they used to be (I think the last time he was like this was about two weeks ago) I think there's still a really big part of me that thinks he's pathetic and isn't emotionally mature enough to control his anger or have a rational conversation when he feels offended. Now my contempt is fading too - and while I long for closeness and intimacy in my life, I am no longer at all certain I want it with someone with such entrenched behaviours and immature values.
I'm still a bit angry, still a bit sad, and just bloody bored of the whole cycle. I'll avoid him for a few days until he picks a fight with me or accuses me of sulking or not being able to take criticism, and I'll either pretend everything is fine or get upset or avoid him some more, or it will blow over, or I'll just quietly seethe with resentment until next time. If he's in a good mood he may do some acts of service that are supposed to stand in for an apology, and I'll either resentfully ignore them or reject them, or swallow my anger and pretend that someone bringing me a cup of tea is an adequate way of taking responsibility for nasty, bullying and hurtful behaviours. At some point I will be able to say some version of 'you treated me appallingly and it isn't acceptable' and he'll say 'it's your fault for doing something I don't like' and I'll say 'I don't accept that' and the stalemate we're at - where I don't accept responsibility for his shortcomings and behaviours and he doesn't either means that the only way we function as a couple is if we keep as emotionally separate from each other as possible.
Because I am bored of the cycle and because I am part of the cycle, I need to do something different this time. I have no idea what that might look like.
I have a busy work day tomorrow, and he's not on shift in the day as he's working overnight. Which means he will be around during the day. I plan to avoid / ignore / so I can work and enjoy my day, then spend the evening having a nice family Friday night with the kids while he's at work.
Hi Alison,
That's really rough. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. Yes, it is probably one of the most stressful times right now for just about every human being on the planet, so throw in some marital difficulties and it is truly unbearable.
I'm sure you have already thought about the various paths in front of you. It does sound from an outsider's perspective that your H needs to be in IC to deal with his issues. It is really not okay to treat people the way he is treating you, and to say the things he has said. Does he realize he has a problem?
I think I've told you before that my H used to have some similar issues to your H, though to a much lesser degree (he never would get into name-calling, but he can get unreasonably angry and mean about relatively small things). For years, this behavior was a big factor for me in the SSM (though he thinks the SSM also fed into it, a non-virtuous circle) and I thought it was our biggest problem/ HIS biggest problem. He had issues at work also with people thinking he was an a-hole. For the whole first year of the A, he was worse and worse and it was from my perspective why we finally went to counseling, because he was such a jerk. We spent a lot of time in counseling on this subject and finally the MC recommended that he see an IC, which he did about a year and a half ago. Again, I thought for his anger management issues, he wanted to use it to figure out WTF he was doing in an affair and what he was going to do about it.
All that being said-- he HAS worked on this in IC for the past year and a half, along with the lying and ambivalence about the A. Of course his IC is not responsible for helping him to do the "right thing" in terms of the A-- her primary goal is his mental health-- and TBH I think she is an echo chamber here reinforcing his fantasy with AP, saying things like she thinks his mental health would be better if he was with the person he really loved, and that she doesn't believe I would really stop being H's friend-- but she has consistently encouraged him to tell the truth, and also has worked with him quite a bit on his anger and how to manage it productively. I think between him working with her on this and my no longer pouring gasoline on the fire when he does get angry, those really mean outbursts hardly ever happen now. (I hadn't realized my own role in escalating these incidents until I tried as a 180 not to react... and was shocked how much better they got.) I also think to some extent it is a learned response-- he gets some stress relief out of it when it happens. Learning alternative methods of releasing that stress and finding it works can help to break those habits. But it is difficult and it takes time, and of course your H would need to recognize it as a problem and be willing to work on it.
One other probably stupid little thing I did if he went off the rails was pick up my cell phone and start recording a voice recording of our fight. It wasn't as frontal as taking a video, like I was trying to document HIM, but recording our conversation. In the moment it was not received well, nor, to be honest, was it meant well (I think I said something like I'm going to record this for MC to prove what an a-hole you are) but it really did make both of us think more about our words, and later on I could narrow my eyes and pick up my phone like I was going to do it again and he would stop and think about what he was about to say. I'm not sure you can do that in your sitch, as your H seems beyond the pale in terms of what he is saying to you and I don't know how he might be provoked with something like that. But, if you do decide to talk about it with him instead of ignore it, maybe, just maybe, it could be a tool you suggest to say maybe we can record one of our conversations to either listen to after the fact when we've calmed down and see where we each might have gone too far, or just the act of knowing you're being recorded can help us be more thoughtful about the words we choose. This might be a totally terrible suggestion. I just give it as it was a helpful weird little thing I tried.
The other thing that H was the one to actually bring up, not me, was that it was not healthy for the children to witness fights like this. And that was a huge motivator for him to stop, more so than anything else. Would your H be moved by that? That no matter how much he thinks he is justified in talking to you like this, no child should ever hear their father talking to their mother with those words?
I'm sorry, Alison. I hope you can take some time for yourself and recover from this.
I do agree that the only option to you in the moment is to disengage. You can't validate stuff like that. Maybe I can tell you are angry, I'm sorry I didn't take into consideration that you might have felt like we weren't being a team (or whatever you can say honestly in the moment) but I refuse to be spoken to like that and I'm leaving. I'm sure you al
Sorry, Alison, I just had another thought. (Also I just realized I didn't actually finish my last post. I meant I'm sure you already do this to some degree, but wonder if you could put a tiny bit of responsibility on your end, as long as you feel it-- even though his behavior is NOT condoned by you-- just to set an example.)
If, and only if, you choose to bring this up with him, here's something else you might try. I know that with my H, I usually would say something along the lines of "It isn't acceptable for you to treat me that way" and he would feel like I was the parent chastising a child. It really got his goat and generally made him feel defensive and we didn't accomplish much, except for a sulky half-a$$ed apology and both of us still feeling badly. When I decided to try a 180 on this and approach it from my perspective-- hey, it really hurt me when you said those things. Do you really think XYZ? And it made all the difference-- he said I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't say those things to you. I don't mean it. I don't know why I do it. And then we could get into a conversation about how to prevent it. Still then, I had issues when he would say "well you shouldn't do X then I wouldn't get angry" so it wasn't like a magic bullet, but it really helped even open the discussion. And for the record, I've become OK with a single like primal yell to let off steam, as long as it wasn't aimed at anyone. Prior I thought he should just be able to swallow it like I could. And that just isn't him. So kind of a compromise.
The other thing we talked about was the Gottman experiment from the love lab where, when couples were fighting and their heart rates got too high, the experimenter would stop them and say "our recording equipment is malfunctioning-- can you please stop talking for a moment while we get it back online?" And then they would wait until their heart rates dropped down to a certain rate (I can't remember exactly what it was) and then let them keep going. And each time the argument was mightily defused. I shared this with my H, who thought it was pretty interesting too, and we have tried it-- saying "I need to take a break, I feel flooded" and then taking one. I bet honestly that would help him a LOT if he could do it.
Alison, you are so wise and capable of understanding the nuances in your relationships (H, your kids, even yourself!). And the advice you give to others is so incalculably lucid, loving and so true. You are the kind of woman I would be dear friends with IRL. So please take this as if I am a close friend challenging your worldview with the utmost love and respect for who you are, even if I don’t know you IRL.
Do you love your H? For who he is completely, f***ed up as he is right now, not just love in the past tense (all those good memories and shared history together), but in this moment? Is your love conditional on him behaving a certain way or meeting some expectations? And if it is a conditional love, are those expectations expressed to him? In a way or language he can understand? There are no wrong or right answers here.
If your love is conditional, what are you going to do if he can’t meet your expectations? You are in a cycle of wanting more, craving things he isn’t giving you. What’s the end game? Suffer this for the sake of your kids? Work on taking all of H’s poor behaviour on the chin until there’s a breaking point within you? Where will that leave you? What is your breaking point? When are you worth more than the suffering you are experiencing? You will be an amazing catch to anyone in this world if you were to move on. An amazing person will be worthy of you, whether it’s H or someone else.
And maybe there are enough good moments in between all the bad, not worthy of sharing because they are few and far between or negated by the contemptuous actions he takes, and those good moments keep you on the end of the hook because you ‘see’ glimpses of the ‘real’ H shining through from time to time? That’s OK too. I would keep fighting if that were the case in my sitch.
You mentioned something on my thread that I have been thinking about all day: something along the lines of not being an obstructionist in the face of piecing my M back together. Are there ways you are still being an obstructionist? Or has that boat sailed in your R?
You are so incredible and worthy. Take all those generous, moving words you share with others and hold some of it for yourself. You will be fine, with or without your H.
With love, S
Ugh.... I have had a terrible night's sleep.
I agree he could use IC. He went for a while, then ended it over text. I don't know what they discussed and he won't go again. I met her, and she was a direct woman, and when I did meet her I told her that the way he treated me when he was angry (and I described it directly and honestly) was a massive issue for me. I don't know if she challenged him on it or not. I do know he really really didn't want me to go for a joint session with him.
He doesn't think he has a problem. When he's calm, he'll say what he needs to work on is standing up for himself more and making sure he has more time alone. He never says that he feels he needs to work on his anger or the way he speaks to me when he is angry. His general opinion is that if I behaved better, and I got Eldest to behave better, then he'd have no reason to be angry. This is abusers 101 and I know it.
Things I have tried - other than just getting out of the room:
Telling him it hurts me and makes me feel unloved. His response when angry is to mock me and laugh. When he's calm, he'll say well he feels unloved when I don't do what he wants me to do, that I don't give him enough time alone, that I bring it on myself.
Recording him. I did try this May! He became very odd, and started 'performing' into the phone, outlining for an imaginary audience everything he thought was wrong with me (I'm damaged, I'm messed up, etc etc.) I deleted the recording unlistened to because I couldn't bear to put myself through it again.
Asking him, in calm moments, if he would consider seeing a doctor for stress and anxiety (which felt like less confrontational ways of saying 'anger management issues'). His response: he wouldn't be stressed if I didn't do the things he didn't want me to do.
Trying logic. 'If you're not responsible for your behaviour when you're angry because I make you angry, does that not also apply to Eldest and to me? When Eldest speaks disrespectfully and slams doors, do we allow him to blame his behaviour on you or me or Youngest because he's angry with us? If I act badly, does that suddenly become okay because you've made me angry? Are you the only one who gets a carte blanche on this?'
Also, along the same lines, asking him to get control of himself when he's ranting. He'll tell me he is perfectly in control, and I say well then you need to choose better and be responsible for your choices. Then he'll say I'm making him do it. I say if I have that power, I'd now like to 'make' you speak to me with respect and in a solution focussed way, and he'll laugh at me. I don't bother trying to be rational with him when he's ranting any more. It's like trying to reason with a three year old.
Telling him I struggle to respect him or feel love for him, and struggle to want to be intimate with him, when I have all the ways he's treated me in anger and the fact that he's perfectly okay with treating me that way, and holds me responsible for both causing it and stopping it. He shrugs and tells me he's perfectly okay with keeping himself to himself. I am not saying I with-hold sex - I'm the HD partner - but I do tell him that when he initiates, all I can think about is his angry face. He tells me fine, he won't initiate then, and he generally doesn't.
Challenging him. When he's given me a compliment and seems in a good mood I have tried responding with 'no, you don't think I'm a good mum. You think I've damaged our children and you believe I'm just like my violent and abusive father, despite the fact I don't shout at them and have never laid a hand on them in my life,' or 'no, you don't admire my success at work. You think I'm a failure and that I'm brain-dead.' He will generally roll his eyes and claim I am picking a fight and the discussion then becomes about my inability to take a compliment and experience love because of how messed up I am, rather than the way his nasty words sit around in our marriage and he is unwilling to take them back or apologise for them.
Threatening to leave him if it happens again. He's told me to go ahead, and nobody is making me stay in the house. Asking him if he'd consider going back to the flat he rented while we were S. He says he's not being separated from Youngest and his home because I can't cope with him having opinions.
I've told him he's hurting the children. He says he only gets angry when I am in the room, and if I leave there's nothing for the children to see. (This is true and I do this most of the time.) I've said he's trashed his relationship with Eldest and as the parent and the adult he needs to show some love to start mending bridges. He says he's not doing that until and unless Eldest gives a full and detailed apology for all of his behaviour starting in year 7. It is a ridiculous thing to want and makes me feel contempt for him.
I've asked him if we can have a solution focussed conversation about the issues that are important to him (laying aside anything I want or feel about his angry behaviour.) I've told him it is important to me that he feels respected and that he gets what he needs in our marriage. Even if I come to him calmly and when he is calm, he will generally roll his eyes, get sarcastic, tell me I am taking too long to say what I am trying to say, time me using his mobile phone ('you get three minutes of my time, talk quickly...') or say he isn't engaging with me to solve it because then I will use that to expect a similar response to any issues I have, and that it is manipulative behaviour.
Addressing it - for four years now - with an IC. Working on super tight boundaries. Looking at what is left between us when I do keep these boundaries. Asking myself if the remnants of a marriage like this is enough. Learning it is not.
Sage - I need to sit with your question. I think in the end the answer is no. I am furious with him today and I am out of ideas. I don't feel trapped but I also have no wish to try anything I've tried before, nor do the work of being his emotional punch bag. I'm mainly angry with myself for sitting there and taking it - I think talking on here about boundaries and realising that my boundaries were so high they were probably acting as an obstruction to the intimacy I wanted made me drop it a little with him, and sit in the room when ordinarily I wouldn't have done. I don't think he feels listened to, and I wanted to give him some room to be listened to as a first step. It was a terrible idea and kind of underlined to me that I need those super-high boundaries of mine. That he is not a person who deserves to have my heart.
Today, I feel like I am pretty much done. What that might look like right now in terms of concrete action in a lockdown I do not know.
I really need some help today. I am so incredibly furious. I have work to get on with, and we're in the house together today. There are no cafes open and my workplace is locked up and closed so I need to get a hold of myself, get on with my work, and tolerate being in the same house as him today.
I spoke to him briefly this morning. I've contacted my solicitor and asked for a telephone appointment and also emailed three estate agents to get a valuation on the house. I told him this, and told him I'd waited long enough for him to take responsibility for his abusive behaviour, and I was done, and I suggested he got his own solicitor. I told him I didn't love him any more, and it wasn't because we had disagreements or differences of opinion, it was because he had the emotional maturity of a child and I was done hearing about how his behaviour was always someone else's fault. He smirked at me. I told him I realised I couldn't kick him out of the house, but from now on he would be sleeping somewhere other than in our bed, and that I wasn't doing his washing or cooking for him. I didn't shout - I was icy calm - and he just stood there making himself a coffee and smirking at me then went into the next room to joke around with Youngest.
I've taken off my wedding rings. I feel like gathering up his stuff and throwing it onto the street, which I am not going to do.
I know I cannot convince or threaten or frighten him into treating me with love and respect, and I know that the reason he can't has nothing to do with how worthy of love and respect I am. I also know that we're not going to get to a place where he sees this through my eyes, and any attempts I make to get him to see that are likely to inflame the situation. I need to accept the reality of my situation - I have been choosing to be in relationship with a man incapable of giving me what is essential to me - and while I have stopped most but not all of the manipulative and pursuing behaviours, I have been quietly resenting him for his shortcomings.
I don't think this is a matter of my needing to drop my expectations. I think this is a case of me having perfectly reasonable needs and being sick and tired of having to pretend I am okay with them not being met. I am not okay with it, and it is now time to act.
I want to put one last thing down here so I don't forget. This big work news. It is something I have been working towards for over a year. It was extremely difficult, and I was working on it during our separation and just as he returned. I was extremely ambivalent about telling him about it, and also putting myself forward for it. The reason why was because - and I am feeling ashamed to admit this - I knew if I was successful there would be an award ceremony in my industry, a kind of public event, and I felt so sad about the idea of there being no loving partner there in the front row cheering me on. I think I did share this with him at some point - which made me feel so vulnerable and needy and stupid - and he was, at the time, very reassuring that he would be there for me.
When I got the news I had been successful, I went and told him, and he stared at me blankly and said, 'I don't know what to say about that.' I went and did my meditation class online then went and spoke to some friends online. I thought that he was probably feeling a bit envious because of his own recent work disappointment and needed some time to process. That's not pretty, but it is also entirely human and forgivable. So I gave him space. When I went back into the room he was in a few hours later, he was lying on the sofa sleeping after getting drunk. I went to bed that night instead of feeling pleased or proud or happy about my achievements, feeling entirely unloved and disregarded, and having to do all the emotional work to process that. When I look back on this moment, what I will remember is not sharing happy news with a loved one, but his blank face and withdrawal.
His responses should reassure you that you have nothing to work with here.
I’m so sorry that your achievement was tainted. You deserved better.
It probably doesn’t mean much, but I am here for whatever help you need.
Oh Alison,
I want to echo both Sage and Scout. You are wise and strong and resourceful and capable. For what it's worth, from a total outsider's perspective, I think you've truly thought this through and you know you are doing the right thing for yourself and your family.
And, I am here for you too, whatever you need.
I am sure he must have some good qualities for you to have married him, but from what you've shared here, they seem to be buried. He has a lot of work to do to be capable of a healthy R with anyone. I am sure once you and the children get some space, you'll feel far, far better.
Also, in terms of your work success-- you ARE loved and valued, and I hope with time your memory of sharing the news first goes to the friends you told online, or how proud you felt when you got the news, not of your sad H snoring away.
Now I'll ask you something you've asked me recently-- how can you be kind to yourself right now? I'm guessing it is now the end of your workday. Can you find some sort of self-care mechanism to indulge in for a bit? Get out of the house for a long walk? Anything you can do to help yourself find some space and warmth.
Hugs, Alison.
This big work news. It is something I have been working towards for over a year. It was extremely difficult, and I was working on it during our separation and just as he returned.. I knew if I was successful there would be an award ceremony in my industry, a kind of public event, and I felt so sad about the idea of there being no loving partner there in the front row cheering me on.
Allison, congratulations on your achievement. It sounds like you worked hard and did this all on your own, and you will have many people clapping for you, even if MrBlankExpression is a dork.
Thank you all for your kindness - CWarrior and May and Scout. I really appreciate them such a lot.
So, weirdly enough - H has announced that he has had an initial phone consultation with a solicitor and is getting the paperwork sent through to him. This man has never filled out a form in his life without hand-holding and careful supervision, so this will be interesting. I texted him the details of my solicitor and said he was free to have anything he wanted dealing with in terms of practicalities sent there and given this was a legal process, neither his or my opinions on it mattered that much at the moment, only the facts and figures, and I would be letting the solicitors deal with that.
He also said that he wanted Eldest to see a therapist. Eldest was seeing a therapist until lockdown, and will be starting again soon as the schools re-open. I reminded him of that. I also reminded him that the therapist had given us very specific suggestions for setting boundaries around angry behaviour, had said that Eldest's challenging behaviour was totally in the realms of normal for a boy his age, and that it was a systemic problem caused by the variance in our parenting and that is why we'd both been invited to participate in the conversations. I reminded him that H had refused to come to any of the meetings or talk to the therapist on the phone, and that he'd rejected all the suggestions and said that he'd preferred to parent 'on instinct'.
These are things i would normally keep to myself in the sake of peace, but I think if I have to speak to him, I am only going to tell the truth from now on and that means not going along with the self-serving, passive aggressive fictions he needs to me to collaborate in. Because I calmly disagreed with him and he does not like that, he started with another of his tantrums and started with the mocking impressions of me crying (I wasn't crying - I was stone cold calm and if I had an expression on my face, it would have been a mixture of boredom and contempt) and when he started up with that, I laughed at him and then left the house with the dog for a couple of hours.
It's actually very freeing not to feel like I need to constantly fake deference to him so he feels good, and I can just live my own truth - which is I will respect him as a human being, communicate civilly, and when it is appropriate, speak my truth. He consistently exaggerates everything - Eldest refusing to do a household chore and slamming the door as he leaves the room (which is not acceptable behaviour) turns into - in his father's eyes - 'screaming and shouting and ruining the day' and my saying 'if you ask me a question then you need to let me answer' turns into me being 'hysterical' - his lies and exaggerations are things I've let pass too, understanding that perhaps he is just so sensitive to conflict that it really feels that way to him, and I should validate his experience. But I don't care to validate his nonsense any more: what is actually happening is that he doesn't seem to be able to cope with living with people he can't control. Youngest has a very easy going nature, and is of course a much younger child. When she gets older and has her own mind, I am sure H will find that threatening too. I believe - and I know I've said this before - he mistakes anything other than obedience to his wishes to be my controlling him, and that is because he does not have the skills and control over his own emotions to have a conversation about collaborative solutions, and he does not have the humility to change his course or take feedback once his mind is made up on something. I believe our marriage collapsed because in his passive aggression he swallowed his own needs, didn't speak for them and resented my not meeting them. And because when he left that space, I moved forward and filled it with my own stuff. I am more intelligent and articulate than he is, more confident, and more relationship-focussed. When he moved back in, my hope was that I would pull back and take care of more of my own needs, and that he'd take responsibility for speaking up for his own needs and involving himself in the myriad conversations, compromises and negotiations that make up family life. I think in his heart of hearts he doesn't want to do that, or doesn't have the skills to do it and doesn't have the humility to learn them. My truth at the moment is that I think he's an enormous child who isn't happy and isn't willing to take action to make changes to make himself happy, and wants to shout at Mommy. And Mommy isn't going to be shouted at any longer.
Given that I am more intelligent, capable, confident and articulate than he is, and given that over the past year or so I've got really good at opening up my life to my friends, meeting my own needs, and setting my boundaries, he isn't going to know what has hit him when I stop inviting him to collaborate and start going my own way, living in the best interests of myself and my kids, and ignoring his tantrums. I suspect he will massively escalate, but I am prepared to have him removed from the house, levering the time I had to call the police on him two years ago (which I have a record of, as does my solicitor) if necessary. I don't feel scared of him, but if I have to use that, I will.
Alison ~ I can only imagine how hard this process is for you. At the same time... Wow... you are so composed and balanced amid the difficult circumstances. I think you have the perfect detached mindset and approach, including having a plan for the worst-case.
Your kids are so lucky to have you as their mom. Your H may be an emotional child, but you are showing them the way to handle life with confidence and emotional maturity. That doesn't happen in many "happy" marriages.
I wouldn't be surprised if your H continues with the mocking. Even when we change our behavior, they are wearing such thick lenses they can only see what they want to see. For your kids' sake, I hope your H eventually can get a handle on his anxiety (and his need to control to reduce his anxiety).
Thanks, Unchien. I appreciate that.
I wouldn't be surprised if he continues with it either. We've gone through phases with this. His anger expressed in childish ways used to terrify me, and I'd placate him or admit fault or make empty promises to improve or blow up and match it with tears and anger of my own. Then he moved out, and after a lot of door-mattish and pursuing behaviour on my part, which made him and our situation worse for everyone, I just set some cast-iron boundaries and made to move on, and he started to show some progress. Then he moved in, and there was some collaboration and adult conversations, but where things are very difficult (his feelings - I would guess - of anxiety and inadequacy that result in being asked to change or adjust his parenting style, and take into consideration the needs and opinions of others, and balance those with his own) he reverts to type. And in this phase, wanting to give things a chance, and let him go on his own journey with his therapy (which he abandoned) and his changes (which he could not sustain) I left the room rather than be subject to his tantrums, which did protect me from them, but it means nothing was resolved, and he didn't get the resolution he wanted. So with nothing being resolved, his resentment at not getting what he wants is building again - as is his withdrawal and passive aggressive and childish tantruming behaviour.
He has choices here, of course - he can collaborate like an adult, or he can leave - but it seems he's unable or unwilling to collaborate like an adult. He knows full well that this is unacceptable to me, but I don't think he has ever heard me say - calmly and without expectations it will 'improve' his response - that the status quo is now over.
I feel very calm and strong. I was so worried that my leaving the room and refusing to engage with his nonsense was putting a barrier between us, and halting the progress on repairing our marriage. Now I see that repairing our marriage takes two willing and able partners, and I accept that is not on my menu of options. What is in my power is to choose to put up with it, go back to my old behaviours, or to end the relationship. I am choosing to end things. I'll take the next practical steps in my own time and in my own way.
When I did this while we were separated it really triggered him into doing some self reflection and coming back. I'm not interested in a marriage where I have to irregularly start divorce proceedings in order to inspire adult behaviour in him. And at the very best case scenario, that's what he has to offer me. It isn't enough, and it has never been enough. My priority now is myself and my children. I'm both prepared for his escalation tactics, and entirely uninterested by them.
But I don't care to validate his nonsense any more: what is actually happening is that he doesn't seem to be able to cope with living with people he can't control. Youngest has a very easy going nature, and is of course a much younger child. When she gets older and has her own mind, I am sure H will find that threatening too. I believe - and I know I've said this before - he mistakes anything other than obedience to his wishes to be my controlling him, and that is because he does not have the skills and control over his own emotions to have a conversation about collaborative solutions, and he does not have the humility to change his course or take feedback once his mind is made up on something. I believe our marriage collapsed because in his passive aggression he swallowed his own needs, didn't speak for them and resented my not meeting them. And because when he left that space, I moved forward and filled it with my own stuff. I am more intelligent and articulate than he is, more confident, and more relationship-focussed.
Alison, we married the same man. Once the dust settles from this, know that there is immeasurable peace and contentment in living an authentic life. Men like our Hs will never live an authentic life. They are incapable.
In my situation, the escalation tactics were just hot air. My X made a lot of noise about taking my house and fighting me for custody, and then collapsed like an overcooked noodle when I held my (reasonable and legally informed) position.
If I may recommend a book for you, I'd suggest 'Why Does He Do That' by Lundy Bancroft. There's a PDF version online. It really helped me understand the abusive dynamic in my marriage. Goodreads has a great collection of quotes if you can't be arsed to read the whole book (it is quite long, but engrossing all the same).
YOUR ABUSIVE PARTNER DOESN’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIS ANGER; HE HAS A PROBLEM WITH YOUR ANGER.
One of the basic human rights he takes away from you is the right to be angry with him. No matter how badly he treats you, he believes that your voice shouldn’t rise and your blood shouldn’t boil. The privilege of rage is reserved for him alone. When your anger does jump out of you—as will happen to any abused woman from time to time—he is likely to try to jam it back down your throat as quickly as he can. Then he uses your anger against you to prove what an irrational person you are. Abuse can make you feel straitjacketed. You may develop physical or emotional reactions to swallowing your anger, such as depression, nightmares, emotional numbing, or eating and sleeping problems, which your partner may use as an excuse to belittle you further or make you feel crazy.
Hi Alison,
You are an incredible inspiration. Truly. I feel like you don't need anyone to tell you how incredible you are because you know it to your very bones but... you are. Strong and smart and thoughtful and giving and so, so wise. Man. Your kids are so lucky. Sending you a virtual hug. I want my daughters to grow up to be like you.
xoxo M
Oh my Scout. I have read that book before, but the quotation you posted really really leapt out at me.
I know when Youngest was born I was angry all the time, and behaved appallingly, and basically trained my H to soothe me constantly or face the consequences. It wasn't my intention, I was very sick with very severe PND and while I wish I'd sought treatment earlier, I really had no insight into how sick I was until it had been going on for a year. H then, I guess in his own buried resentment and anger, developed all these passive-aggressive behaviours, I responded to them in childish ways, and we got locked into a pattern that was all about anger and the expression of it. I remember this really clear moment while we were S, and he looked me in the eye and said, very tearfully, 'my wife died when Youngest was born and I miss her.' And I do think there's some truth in that. I turned into a different person overnight, and in response, he made a slow change of his own. And as I've recovered and grown stronger, I'm a much more self sufficient and assertive person than I ever was before Youngest was born. It is very sad.
But yes, when I'm angry now - generally totally reasonably and as a response to the %^* he puts my way, he responds with near GLEE - how well I am confirming the narrative that I'm some crazy hysteric and he's a noble victim! It makes me laugh now, because he's been desperately fight picking again today, and I've either been mildly ignoring him or openly laughing at him. I have a right to my anger, and to work through it as I wish while respecting the boundaries of others.
And May - thank you for your kind words. I don't want to have a heart as hard as this for my whole life. And under all this assertiveness and coldness I am of course sad and worried about what the future will look like. I'm just not willing to make decisions from that place anymore. I hope very much to one day have someone in my life that I can trust, as you trust, and be gentle and kind with, as you are. That isn't there for me right now and I accept that, but I don't want to get calcified in this state either.
Just updating.
He's been very peculiar today. We had a phone call with Eldest's therapist about restarting his sessions via electronic means. She doesn't like to work that way usually, but given that the schools here probably aren't going to be back in any sustained way until September (and perhaps only part time hours then...) we managed to have a discussion about it and got an appointment for Eldest via electronic means next week.
H wanted me to know that he was concerned that his own views and feelings on the extent and severity of Eldest's behaviour (according to him) weren't being noted. Apparently the reception on the line was too bad and it was too tiring for him to actually verbalise these concerns. He said he was worried that Eldest was going to say lots of mean things about him, and that the therapist would be working on 'uncorrected information'.
My own opinion is that Eldest is extremely angry with his father because he thinks that he favours Youngest. And I believe he's every right to feel those feelings, he probably has a point, and that though the anger comes out in inappropriate ways, he need some space and validation to work through it. I know in my attempts to repair our marriage I have not validated Eldest as well as I could have done - I thought getting out from between them might help. I want to seek advice from Eldest's therapist as to what is the best course of action in Eldest's best interests - to validate his feelings or to keep away from the topic. I don't care about protecting my marriage but I do care about helping Eldest to work through this. I didn't say any of that to H as it is my problem - my parenting decision - and not one I'm interested in his opinion on or need his help with.
I said, 'isn't that what you're doing, given you haven't engaged with the therapist at all before, didn't say anything of this on the phone, and didn't even ask the question about it? You're assuming what Eldest is going to say, assuming how the therapist will respond, and basing your concerns on that, rather than 'information' that you chose not to get when we were speaking on the phone with her?'
In response, he did his eye rolling and sniggering thing again. I said, 'surely your feelings about your relationship with Eldest are something you'd address in your own therapy?' and he didn't answer, just turned the volume up on the television. I said 'it's very clear to me that you aren't capable of having a rational conversation when someone disagrees with you. If there's something you wanted to say to the therapist and you didn't, that's really nothing to do with me.' More eye rolling and sniggering - like a child - so I cut it short.
I feel like my eyes are wide open here. It's more of the same - he doesn't like the view he imagines Eldest takes on their relationship, but he also isn't willing or able to speak rationally to the person involved - the therapist. And he isn't willing to accept that two people can have different views on the same situation, and that be okay. There are the 'facts' - his experience - and everyone else's opinions, which he needs the chance to 'correct.' Instead of either respecting the autonomy of others, or speaking up for himself, he wants to whine at me about it. Ordinarily, I'd just make nice listening noises or validate him, but I don't want to do that any more as it was costing me too much to pretend I was in conversation with an adult when he so clearly isn't.
He's stomping around now, making it clear he is displeased. I think the net is closing on him - he doesn't have this energy from me that he used to have - or a silence he can interpret as agreement. He's being expected to participate as an adult and a father, if not a partner, and the fact he can't manage that is being clearly exposed. And I spoke to him with great calm and respect and in a quiet tone - so he can't even make something up about me being hysterical without looking totally irrational.
I wish we weren't in lockdown. I feel ready to make some big changes but it just isn't practically possible for me to do more than I have right now. His imaginary solicitor's appointment (this morning, apparently) mysteriously evaporated, so that was more manipulative and escalating behaviour rather than a man acting to advocate in his own legal interests at the end of a relationship.
Oh A, I have been checked out in my own grief, but following along to your story with so much admiration. You have so much inner wisdom and ability to self-reflect, I don't feel worthy of giving you any advice. Other than to say the road from self-reflection to self-actualization is long and lurching and you deserve a lot of self-love in this process, whatever and however that needs to materialize. Hang on to those moments of clarity you have been experiencing and recall them when you are in the actual figurative or literal battle field.
And just to revisit the past a little bit with you... your story about PND and the dynamic that was born with your youngest: please don't spend too much time owning your role in that narrative. Yes, you allowed a certain interplay to develop in your R during that time, but during times of mental illness, we should be able to rely on the 'healthier' of the two halves in a R to help pull us out on to the other side. Instead, your H allowed himself to give birth to the 'true' him when you were at your most vulnerable. He took advantage of your weakness and gave himself permission to do this. And when you came out the other side through the unfolding of your personal growth in your M, he remains stuck. You didn't ask for him to become who he is and you are not responsible for him becoming so. That's on him. We are all flawed, we are all human, but as long as one of us remain 'fixed' and the other lives in 'growth' there is no hope. You can't clap with one hand, as May said. I am writing this while needing to take my own advice on a similar scenario in my own sitch.
Sending huge hugs, S
Thank you Sage. I've been reading along with you too. This is a bumpy road for so many of us and it is really hard to keep steady when the person we are connected to is wobbling and lurching so much. It's like they are drowning, and grabbing on to us to keep afloat. We can't get them out of the water, and there's no virtue in letting them take us down with them. I guess that's what detachment is - getting yourself out of the water and to a place of safety and if you can, hoping - with love - that the WH or W gets out of the water too. Whether they end up on the same side of the river as you are is up to them, of course.
I am updating again, mainly because it keeps me in a place of steadiness. H was leaving the house this morning and I asked him if he'd put sun cream on youngest. Not with any 'tone' - just for information, as I'd do it if he hadn't before we left the house. H went into a mini-rant, on the doorstep, listing all the things he'd done that morning. He often does this - I'll ask for information, he'll take it as some kind of criticism and come out on the attack. I waited for him to finish then said, 'you're defending yourself against an entirely imaginary attack. I just wanted to know if I needed to do the suncream, or not?' and he stopped off, shaking his head and muttering.
A couple of texts this morning - phrases included 'you're not allowed to speak to me like that' and 'don't you dare speak to me like that' - again, this is the sort of thing I'd usually ignore or pacify in the sake of peace. Instead, I said, 'when you are being defensive and argumentative without cause I will point it out. You speak freely and so will I and we will see where we are.' He carried on issuing me instructions via text as to how or when I was 'allowed' to speak to him (he loves that word - and hasn't grasped that I am not in his control - or his tantrums are about how he feels when he realises I am not in his control) and I finally said 'I won't listen to you give me these type of controlling instructions. I am blocking you from being able to send me any more messages until this evening.' Then I did.
He really doesn't grasp that a boundary isn't about controlling my behaviour. I have no wish to control his - I was just sick and tired of having to be Stepford Wife for the sake of peace, so I've decided to call it as I see it when I feel like it. He clearly can't cope with that. Without wanting to mind read, I suspect there will be either sulking or ranting tonight (he seems to have only two settings) so I've arranged to go out on a socially distanced walk with a friend of mine, which should give him time to get some beer inside him and go to sleep.
I feel calm and strong. I have no wish to control or provoke him - I just am done with having to pretend to go along with his nonsense for the sake of peace. For the time being, that means no closeness and love and affection for me (which there wasn't much of anyway - his withdrawal used to be so hurtful and I let my fear of it control me, but now it's just a slightly more exaggerated version of business as usual) and no punch bag for him. I'm kind of curious to see how this turns out, given that he's already threatened to see a solicitor, and the imaginary appointment he ostentatiously claimed to be having mysteriously evaporated. He doesn't really have any place to go now. Emotionally I mean, and in the games and bids for control he makes - there's no positive outcome for him in any of his controlling behaviours. Of course he can physically go if he wants to - and that would be fine with me. I don't plan on moving out but neither do I plan on living long term with Mr Sulking McBeer or Mr Ranty McTantrum. I'll see how things pan out during the summer with the estate agents valuation and talk to my mortgage broker again - I can buy him out of the house without too much difficulty but have been legally advised (when I called the solicitor the other day) it's a bad idea to do that without a legal divorce agreement.
Gosh, Alison, lots of developments. Except in your H's behaviour. Mr Ranty McTantrum describes my H's behaviour a lot of the time in the past. It's extraordinarily difficult to deal with someone who is incapable of self reflection and whose default setting is lashing out and not apologising afterwards. Your H sounds in a bad place. You sound as centred as you can be. I identify so much with the drowning person analogy. Important not to get sucked into their vortex of hurt, that's what detachment is.
Yeah. I read back over my old threads (some of them) last night, trying to see if this was just a lock-down thing (he is working a lot, and it's difficult and traumatic work) or it was an 'us' thing. Charitably, the man is exhausted and getting next to no time to himself and that's extremely hard for him. It's also not an excuse for him reverting to behaviour that destroyed our marriage and tipped over the scale into abuse. So he doesn't get a pass. He could move out into hospital accommodation if he wanted peace and space and wasn't coping with family life. Reading back over my old threads, it's also just confirmed for me that for a while, there was more peace and we were making progress, but little to none of my emotional needs were being met, and while I thought that was because of my boundaries, it was actually because he can't be close to what he can't control, and I was getting really really resentful at having to button my lip in the face of his irrational behaviour. I feel pretty sorry for him today. He's blocked on my phone so he's sent me a couple of emails instead, which I have deleted unread (the subject line is enough to see that it is more ranting and not an emergency I need to respond to.) He's really suffering today, and what has caused this suffering is me respectfully pointing out he's being unreasonable, and refusing to toe the line when he says I'm not allowed to do it.
Alison: I spent so many years making excuses for my H's poor behaviour. He was working too hard, he had this stress or that stress or this thing going on or he hadn't got enough sleep or blahblahblah. It's one thing to make reasonable allowances for bad behaviour and someone going through a rough patch. It's another thing to spend years letting them justify being a crap partner and parent. I was definitely complicit in allowing H to give excuse after excuse and even making some of them on his behalf. At some stage they have to take responsibility for their emotions and the impact of those on others. Your H really needs some decent therapy...
Yeah - I had another IC session yesterday. I cried a lot, coming to the realisation that peace in my house relies on my swallowing my opinions and needs and making lots of excuses for H's behaviour. At one point the therapist said, 'what has kept you in the marriage?' and I said 'I'd hoped that things would be different, that if I made changes the dynamic itself would change, and we'd both be happier' and she said 'you have made changes, and your H isn't happier, and how he deals with being unhappy is something you can choose to live with, or not.' She went on to say he may very well make changes of his own - nobody is incapable of change - but she also said it was possible he'd carry on in the same way for the next decade, the next thirty years. I don't know which of these is more likely and I can't say that I am entirely without hope - I wish I could strangle out that hope so I could leave very decisively and without sadness - but I do know when she said 'decade, the next thirty years' my blood ran cold. If I waste my life on this, that's on me and I will be responsible for it. I think I am nearly ready to leave - or rather, start the legal stuff so that he can leave.
Changing yourself is HARD. Changing someone else is impossible. Everyone on here learns that eventually through bitter experience.
What do you have to lose if you file for D? What do you have to gain? Maybe filing for D might be what wakes him up (probably not, but you could hope for that whilst still being ok with the alternative).
Giving up hope is the hardest thing of all, I really empathise with that. But maybe you can reframe it as 'this is the best thing for me right now and I'm only closing the door so it's ajar, not slamming it in his face'. You can stand for your marriage and you can file for D. I've realised that the two things are not mutually exclusive. If filing for D is the healthiest thing for you then do it, it does not necessarily mean giving up on your marriage completely.
Have a hug, this stuff is tough. The fact that 50% of marriages end in D is astonishing to me, how can society function with this level of pain going on inside so many people for so many years?
That's a good question, Dilly. Filing for D would not substantially change my life if he is unwilling to move out until we have a financial settlement, which would involve me buying him out of the house (I'd rather not sell it and move, and he can't afford to buy me out). I'm unwilling to buy him out of the house without a divorce as it would be financial madness. If I really really really need him to be out of the house and he is refusing, then I will have to file and grit my teeth until the finances are sorted and he leaves. Which at the moment - with lockdown and mortgage brokers being so cautious - might take longer than is needed. I've kind of decided I will get my ducks in row with finances and the paperwork, look at mortgage options, and take some financial advice as to what mortgage options would look like in six months. I can cope with him being Mr Sulky McBeer for as long as he feels like it - but if Ranty McTantrum makes more regular appearances then I will have to be more decisive. (And if Mr Sexting-With-25-Year-Olds comes out to play again, I'll probably have to bury him under the patio (JOKE))
This idea of 'standing' I am not sure of. I think I 'stood' through all kinds of abuse, and even since he came back I've been 'standing' or at least waiting for the kind of marriage I want. I think it might be happier for me to pull the plug entirely and get out there in the world and see if there's a loving, passionate, interesting person out there waiting for me. There might not be, but if there isn't I'd be no worse off than I am now - and probably significantly better in several ways that are increasingly important to me.
Alison!
I finally come over to the boards and read this thread and can I just say, "YAS QUEEN!" (clap clap clap). Your strength, resolve and calmness is very refreshing to read! I believe that all of your hard work and determination over the years has led you to this point. Can you see that? There are these cycles of grief that vary for everyone and I think similarly there are cycles in the deaths of our marriage. We come to this site in the throws of disaster and we all want to know how to get to the end game. There isn't a short cut. We can't bypass the steps and hard work. By "end game" I dont mean saving the M necessarily, but I mean a mental place of genuine understanding, confidence, and detachment. This is the place where we can be our best self and make good, solid, decisions. I believe that you are there. You have worked hard and I have seen (read) it. Now you can see more clearly what you want in an intimate partner and how you deserve to be treated by an H. This guy right here and his abusive baby, ridiculous tantrums is NOT IT. And this is his huge loss!
You keep forward on your journey and your rewards will be plentiful! I know you can do it. Congratulations on the job promotion. You have so much to celebrate and look forward to! :-)))
Blu
Blu - it is so lovely to hear from you again. I hope you are getting on all right! You're a nurse, aren't you? I hope you are well and healthy and not working too hard.
I am happy today. Went out with my friend last night for a long walk so I have no idea if Mr Sulky McBeer or Ranty McTantrum was in the house last night. And this morning was peaceful. I feel very calm and clear and safe - not safe with my H - I don't trust him, but I do trust myself.
What you said about cycles was very true, Blu. If I'd have been in this place towards the end of last summer when I told H I didn't think he / I was ready to R, then I'd have let him have his feelings about it and worked through them on his own and concentrating on thinking about what I needed, rather than just agreeing to make do with what he had on offer because I was afraid of how he'd respond if I stuck to my guns. I just wasn't ready. I think these things take longer than we can really control.
Today I am working, going to see a different friend for a walk tonight. I've decided to cook a really nice meal as we've been making-do with quick food for a few days because I've not been in the mood, and a nice meal lifts the spirits. It is so hot here I've closed all the curtains to keep the house cool - I don't remember having to do that for years! Apparently there will be thunder storms this afternoon, and if they co-incide with my walk with my friend I'll be pleased - I love being out with a muddy dog with wet hair in warm rain and dramatic skies.
I am happy today too. I went out last night and was talking with my friend in her garden until quite late. It was such a lovely evening - really warm and bright - so there was no need to worry about not being able to go inside. We didn't really talk about my M or kids - just her life, our work, plans for future work and mutual friends. It was so lovely. I'm going to go more of this - zoom and skype are just not the same. No thunderstorms as yet, but perhaps this evening?
H was up when I got back, very nice and cordial. No mention of his ranty texts and emails from the morning. This morning there was a tiny bit of conflict: Eldest had done all his chores, but Youngest hadn't. I asked H about this - in case Youngest was sick or being a pain in the %$$ about it, and he said that Youngest was too young to do the chore (that he had wanted him to do earlier in the week.) I said, 'we didn't agree that, and it doesn't make sense as it is the chore you asked her to do yourself last week. I will get her to finish it off this morning.' (It was a 5 minute thing). The difference between the way H treats our children is not appropriate and I will not participate in that.
He stomped off to work, then started with the texts again (I unblocked him last night when I went out in case of emergency with the kids). I just replied simply: 'We can come to an agreement on the matter of chores and responsibilities for the kids though an adult conversation tonight if you want to. And if you don't want to, that's totally fine with me. But I am not going to do this now and over text and when you're attempting to give me instructions rather than open a discussion.'
He carried on with a few more texts - getting a bit ranty and accusing me of undermining him (as I have no idea what his decision was, it isn't possible for me to undermine it) so I blocked him again without replying. I'm not going to explain the boundary to him again. PEACE.
These are petty silly things, these skirmishes over which kid does what and when they do it. I think he's trying to have some kind of power struggle, or he wants to provoke me into being angry or upset because I'm easier to control when I'm desperate for peace and his approval at any cost. I also think he's having a hard time when I speak up for myself. I also think this is extinction behaviour - like when you give a child a boundary and they UP the poor behaviour for a while in order to test it before they accept you mean business and start behaving better. I don't want to think of him as a child, but this behaviour is childish and will be treated as such. Perhaps he'll get used to me respectfully disagreeing and offering a rational conversation sooner or later. I don't have much hope for that.
Youngest did the chore very happily and without any fuss this morning, so there's no problem there. I have a class (online) tonight this evening so no need to hang out with Sulky McBeer.
You sound like a WAW here Alison, can't say as I blame you given your H's childish behaviour. I'm glad you've been having some nice times out with your friends
I'm so glad you are happy, Alison. You deserve it.
I definitely think you are in the extinction burst phase of his behavior. I love the text blocking and just being free from having to listen to his garbage. (That is such a huge, huge plus over thinking of it in the same vein as toddler parenting, where you have to stoically just get through it and not react until you get to the other side. I'm thinking of how amazing it would have been to be able to put in earplugs or whatever during those phases).
I don't have a lot of advice for you but I do want to just make sure you know how much I appreciate you, how much I support you, and I'm here for whatever you need, even if it is just knowing someone on the other side of the world is thinking about you and caring about you.
Thanks, Ladies.
Work today - loads of online meetings which are exhausting in their own strange way (and I don't think I will be back at work 'in person' in any sustained way before the New Year. I finished up a little early then spent some time with the kids then had a couple of old-fashioned phone chats with friends.
I suppose I am like a WAW. The anger I felt earlier last week - a great burst of fury - has totally gone. I think I was mainly angry at myself for taking all of this silliness for so long, and anger at myself for still having some kind of hope. I have more information regarding house value, and have booked chat with mortgage broker but I am definitely just information-gathering stage. There's no way I can kick him out, I'm not going to leave, and I suspect filing will provoke horrible behaviour from him and I want to make sure I am ready for that.
I don't really have an end-game in mind, actually. Not that it is a game. I mean a destination, or an expectation on outcome. I am just so bone-tired of having to check myself, or validate nonsense with a smile on my face, I think my sense of relief is just bone-deep at not having to do that any more. I will be truthful with myself and him, and won't participate in his immature behaviour. I have total control over that, and for the time being that feels like enough. I don't feel scared it will make him worse as I have a game plan for that, and I feel no responsibility for making him better, or trying to get anything 'nice' out of him. I guess this is detachment - however temporary it might be.
He did attempt a few 'hooks' into the old dynamic tonight. He was laying on the couch and told me he was feeling unhappy, and was tired of the constant conflict. It was all deep sighs and self pity. As far as I'm concerned, there hasn't been conflict - he's been behaving like a child, I've been telling him so, then ignoring it. There's plenty of things I could have said there, but he was drunk, so I just made a listening noise and said something like, 'at least it's the weekend now,' then got out of there. He's really unpleasant to be around at the best of times, but when he's drunk most things are more appealing than his company.
I wonder if I am a WAW. I didn't feel any urge to reassure or comfort him. Not any of the contempt or pity I sometimes feel either. No blame, no anger. I guess there will be sadness or uncertainty or fear in the future, but even though I don't know exactly what my plan is and I am not sure of how long it will take me to get there, I don't feel those things today. Just a really calm sense of, 'I'd really rather chat to my friends then go and read a book in the bath than interact with him right now,' and so that is what I am about to do.
Alison, there is a theory that cheaters, narcs, and abusers have three mindf*ck channels - rage, charm, and self-pity. This was true for my X and I wonder if its true for yours. I don’t even believe it has to be intentional as they are emotionally like children mashing buttons on a controller to see what works. They will flip between all three depending on which one gets their desired reaction at the time. If they can’t intimidate you, they’ll seduce you. If they can’t seduce you, they’ll get you to feel very sorry for them and imply this is all your fault. If they can’t get you to to feel sorry for them, they’ll intimidate you. Repeat. May, if you’re reading - this applies to you too.
Noted
Alison, there is a theory that cheaters, narcs, and abusers have three mindf*ck channels - rage, charm, and self-pity. This was true for my X and I wonder if its true for yours. I don’t even believe it has to be intentional as they are emotionally like children mashing buttons on a controller to see what works. They will flip between all three depending on which one gets their desired reaction at the time. If they can’t intimidate you, they’ll seduce you. If they can’t seduce you, they’ll get you to feel very sorry for them and imply this is all your fault. If they can’t get you to to feel sorry for them, they’ll intimidate you. Repeat. May, if you’re reading - this applies to you too.
Yes, I don't think my H would consider any of his tactics to be abusive or at the very least bullying (though they are) and I am sure that he doesn't wake up in the morning and rub his hands and think 'now, how can I bully and dominate my wife today!' - that kind of out and out malice would be easier to stop and easier to deal with, wouldn't it?
I suspect that he'd like a peaceful and calm marriage just as much as I do. I do think he loves me, and I think he wants this house, and our family, and our children to be happy and secure. For me, the way of achieving that is to have adult, rational conversations about matters where we differ so we can come to an agreement that suits us both and where nobody is simmering in resentment (him) or boiling with choked down contempt (me). I've been offering those conversations and trying to have them for months. His version of achieving what he wants is for me to do as I am told and meet all of his needs and preferences without him communicating them or negotiating for them, and without me having any needs of his own. I'm not a person, in his vision he has of peaceful and happy family life, I am a prop - a wife-shaped doll with a smile on her face.
I guess that is why sometimes it is good - we aren't that different on a lot of things that matter, and can live relatively harmoniously in some respects without the need for constant discussions or negotiations. We have a similar attitude to housework, to money - and in these areas I think we both do our share and we both are in agreement of what 'good behaviour' looks like. We rarely talk about these things. When he starts picking at me about housework it is because he's annoyed about something else.
But when we do differ, and I point that out and ask for my view to be listened to and respected, and ask him for his view so I can take account of it and we can come to a decision together, he can't do it. He really doesn't like the doll talking.
It's very strange. He spoke last night about being tired of the conflict - he said, 'the past couple of mornings that's all I get from you,' - I didn't point this out - but what he'd actually got from me both times was a rational question, an offer of an adult conversation, and respect of his space if he didn't. Both times I needed to block him because he wouldn't stop the ranting controlling flood of texts. He has so little self awareness it's creepy.
A peaceful weekend. Weather terrible - not the nice summer warm rain I was hoping for or imagining but real howling winds and cold showers. I was out in it a lot anyway and it was wonderful.
H very calm and respectful. I appreciate us being able to get on with things in the house more or less amicably. He's sleeping elsewhere, and I appreciate that too. There was one moment where I asked him if he knew where something was, and he didn't answer, but said, 'you're the one who always misplaces things - last week you couldn't find your shoes...' and it was so ridiculous. I laughed and said, 'I'm not asking for your opinions about me or a rehash of whatever minor character flaw examples you can find. It's boring. I am asking you if you have seen the extension cable.' I am not sure it does the marriage much good - me consistently challenging him on these deflections, power plays, defensiveness, etc - I don't have any expectation he will stop doing it or it will make him see the error of his ways. I don't really care about that. It makes me feel better - makes me feel I have more of a voice - and as I genuinely don't care if he takes it in good humour or sulks for a couple of days, and as I already have a plan in place to deal with him quickly if he attempts to escalate, there's no real downside for me.
I still feel very calm. I can't say that I don't have some hope that my standing up for myself a bit more and speaking my truth in more respectful ways - while perhaps not good DB-ing - is something that is needed in piecing and that perhaps it will help us find a way through this. But at the moment I don't think that is likely and I am more curious than actually hopeful, if that makes sense.
He was fine this weekend, anyway, and he's working all the hours there are this week so I don't expect to have anything unpleasant to deal with.
Alison,
I am finding your thread so refreshing. When you read the DB rules, and I mostly mean Sandi's rules, they reflect a position of calm, confidence and detachment. It is really hard right after BD to access that. Because we are emotional and spinning. That is why we all come to this site, but we struggle. You are finally reaching a place of indifference and almost apathy and so you are naturally executing these rules, almost effortlessly. I think it's awesome that you are standing up to him and then disengaging and blocking him because he is acting ridiculous. You are in essence teaching him how you will allow him to treat you. And he will learn! Watch him learn (and I say that to all the readers that are spinning and struggling, This is not magic but it is basic human psychology)
I loved Scouts reply.
Alison, there is a theory that cheaters, narcs, and abusers have three mindf*ck channels - rage, charm, and self-pity.
Here is my quick thought on that for you, May, and my previous WH and how they cycled through these channels. lol
Alison's H -- Rage, self-pity, rage
May's H -- Self-pity, charm, self-pity
Blu's prev H -- Self-pity, self-pity, self-pity
I am partly joking here, but I also see some truth to it. Either way, I am not sure how much it matters. Because our response should be the same in each scenario -- Calm, confidence, detachment. I see you are there. I also read you saying you feel you wasted a lot of time. .... May, I see you might be stuck in not being able to detach part .... all the posting, rationalizing and conversations with him could very well be having the opposite effects ...
Blu
I am a silent reader of your sitch. I try to stay away from here these days, but you and your sitch is an example of what proper DBing is.
It is good Dbing! Just because the outcome of the marriage isn’t reconciliation, Doesn’t mean you aren’t Doing this right. You have simply found worth in yourself to not sacrifice yourself for the sake of your marriage. You stand up for yourself, give calm alternatives to disagreements which is choses not to take.
What I drive home all the time is that people can’t handle is that DBing isn’t doing whatever you can to not upset your spouse so they don’t want to divorce you. That’s not going to lead to a healthy reconciliation.
I think you are a rockstar and a woman and mother with very strong self worth and your kids are going to see that. And I’m pretty sure your H does, but he doesn’t value himself enough to see that
The thing that really opened my eyes to H's racket was the way he talked about my being controlling. I sat with that for a long time.
I think there was some truth in it. I know I used my tears and feminine ways to get him to feel guilty and to stop doing things that I didn't like.
I know I also used to cry and get upset when I felt he wasn't giving me enough attention.
I think now, I get the fun and attention and love I need though GAL and my friends. And when he does things I don't like, I either communicate it to him or take action to remove myself from it.
So I think there's some truth - I did use my emotions to control him. And now I have stopped doing that, it is clear I did it because the ways he chose to act in our marriage were not acceptable to me. I controlled - or attempted to control - a situation that hurt me rather than getting strong and removing myself from it.
I think from his point of view, my objecting to his nonsense and then removing myself from the punishment is controlling - in that he doesn't get to do what he wants to do, which is to use his emotions (rage or self pity) to get me to do something he wants me to do.
We will see how this works out. He might be good at raging, but I'm much stronger and more thoughtful than he is - and I know full well I will be fine on my own. I really don't think he does know that, which is why he needs to pretend he's staying with me because I'm too incompetent to manage on my own. I think he knows I see that now.
Hi Alison,
What Blu and Ginger are saying really resonates with me. "Effortless" DB-ing because that is where you are, authentically detached, calm, confident, knowing you are going to be OK no matter what.
The idea of your H pretending that he has to stay because you are too incompetent to manage on your own is truly too laughable for words. I actually snorted out loud reading that.
This whole time, the idea of detachment has felt unattainable. Like true enlightenment. I've felt whispers of it, even thought I got there once before, but I don't really think so. Maybe because the vets already got there and so are speaking from the other side, saying you need to come over here! Come! But the path is not clear or easy and the gulf between where I am now and where they are feels unbridgeable. Not to say I don't truly appreciate the support and the feedback-- I do, wholly-- but I am also really grateful to you, Alison, because I feel like I have seen you go through these stages here, you've been such and open and honest poster, and you've allowed me to travel along beside you and somehow knowing you have done it, you're there, makes it feel more possible to me. So-- thank you for that. It just clicked for me. Not that I have my path charted in front of me yet-- I don't-- but suddenly I feel like it is possible, not just a pipe dream. I can do this, because I watched Alison do it and I want to be like her.
You are also so good about boundaries and being willing to look at yourself to make major change, not just cosmetic changes like doing things you love, but also the things that were more difficult to sort through and see, like examining yourself for behaviors that were controlling and stopping them. And then sharing again with me how you did that and pointing out when I'm doing it too-- some of which I really am only figuring out now, all these months into the process-- again, thank you.
I'm glad you're doing so well and I'm glad you're here.
xx M
Thank you May. I am glad I am here too. This is a little secret place for me, that I use more like a diary really - but I know I get such a lot out of reflecting on things and seeing other people do the same.
I've had a nice couple of days in my house. H is being calm and reasonable and co-operative and we've had rational conversations about a couple of 'hot button' issues that needed sorting out. Not R-talks - I don't care to have anything like that with him right now - but just domestic and child rearing co-operation type stuff. Remember a while ago I asked him if we could get our diaries out and compare working schedules so I knew which evenings were free and which were not free for my GAL? And he went off on a rant about how it wasn't his fault I didn't know his shift pattern, or something like that? The usual spew? When I asked him for the same thing last night, I was a bit wary - and prepared to just cut the ranting off at the knees. I had a phrase prepared, 'I am asking you for information so we can co-parent and I can make sure we both get time with the kids and on our own. If you don't give me that information, I will go ahead and do what I think is best and you can fit in with me. You can choose, but ranting at me is not an option.' But actually, he was very cordial and fine and we sorted it out no problems (his work is not flexible and mine is, so it isn't unreasonable at all for me to know when he is working late or antisocial hours, so I can plan around him) and I could tell by the way he was acting that he remembered our previous interaction on this matter. So that's a good thing.
We also had a board games night with the kids - and Eldest joined in and it was lovely to see him relaxed and laughing and him and his father sharing a joke. I don't pretend I had anything to do with influencing that (perhaps me getting out from between them and letting them be as childish as they like together, without triangulating on me helped a bit?) but it was just really nice and made me realise we hadn't had fun together as a family like that for a long time. I have had nice times with H, and I know he spends good times with Youngest and is a good dad to him. And I have nice times with both my kids. But when we're all together the dynamic very often goes wrong somehow - I don't know what my part in that is yet (perhaps an anxiety about conflict happening has made me controlling which has irritated H and Eldest - that could be a bit of it - and I don't feel that anxiety about conflict now) but I just really enjoyed it.
I don't get the sense that H is on best behaviour to try and manipulate something out of me - I am not sulking or giving hi the silent treatment or being cold or unfriendly - and he knows I am investigating my financial options but I've said I have no wish to kick him out of the house or take him to the cleaners or anything like that. Today that contempt I was feeling for him has gone - I just think, 'here is someone I used to love deeply, and for the time being I have to live with him. I see he has many good qualities and many bad ones, and I am not going to engage with or take responsibility for any of his bad qualities at all, and I am going to live my life and not try to manage or control our relationship so it is safe for me, but accept what is there and protect myself from the stuff I don't want' and that feels more or less okay today.
There's a lot of tension gone out of me and the house generally.
Hi Alison,
I am glad you diary here because your sitch provides a good example to others, but I don't comment much because there's not a whole lot I can add. You're doing all the right things.
The board game night sounds excellent. We use to have board game nights (before my H moved out and after, we'd have them without) until D13 started her "teen years". It was 75% good natured fun and 25% bickering, but I would still put up with the 25% to have the 75% back. I am envious.
I was talking to a friend the other day who recently broke up with his GF. He described his relationship as 99% perfect. I think that's the problem - our minds somehow turn our relationships into all bad or all good. Or we recognise the bad in others but take away their responsibility (we internalise their fault, or we make excuses for them). That's what you use to do, you would see his bad behaviour, and make excuses for him (work stress, if I recall correctly). I think that's the biggest change in you. You see him for what he is (good and bad) and you allow him to own both. He IS a good father. He can sometimes be a sh!t human being. I don't think he is trying to manipulate you either. I think he is just trying to do the best he can, and sometimes, because none of use are perfect, he effs up. I think you are now at a point where even if he does *** up, you can look at the intention/motivator, and not the action.
Not wanting to show you his schedule is his own trauma/childish/gut response to a feeling that doing so would be relinquishing control. He processed (consciously or unconsciously) that fear and came out the other side thinking that the request was a reasonable one.
I hope you continue to journal here.
FS
I've woken up in a strange mood today. H hasn't done anything - he's mainly been at work, and been a little grumpy and short tempered with exhaustion when he's been in the house, but mainly just sleeping - which is fine and what I expected. I don't think my feelings relate to anything he has done or not done. The house is peaceful and he is treating me fine and respecting my boundaries - at the moment.
What is bubbling up for me if that he is never, ever sorry. He's done and said some really atrocious things both in our distant and recent past. He will - he has - sometimes expressed some regret, but it is has been in the context of me telling him how awful it was for me, and how difficult I find it to feel safe with him, not as the result of a change of heart caused by self reflection.
I know I can protect myself from him when he starts raging and sulking. It doesn't really hurt me any more. But I do carry hurt from the past. I don't want to rely on his remorse and sorrow to let go of that and feel better - because this isn't to do with him and our M but it is to with my well being.
This is a bit of of a pattern with me: I can do brilliant boundaries, and for a while he will respond and treat me with respect, and when I do that that space and safety, my feelings about the way he treated me in the past bubble up.
I wish I'd had boundaries like this a year or two years ago. If I had, I'd have divorced him by now. I am not sure how knowing that - 100% - is compatible with piecing. I don't think I can piece things together with him without him really getting what he did, and being sorry for it - and there is sometimes glimmers of that, but not in any sustained way - he just doesn't have the emotional maturity to do that self reflection.
I am not sure why I am all of a tangle today. I don't really want to be around him, but I'm not pulling the trigger on D either, and I could - there's nothing financial or practical stopping me. I feel stuck.
Hi Alison,
Just a few thoughts to offer you.
There is nothing wrong, intrinsically, with feeling stuck for a bit. it means something. You're the absolute best at figuring that kind of thing out, taking a step back, feeling your feelings, casting aside the distractions and honing in on what really counts. You'll do that again here. I think maybe feeling stuck right now is not a bad thing. It is OK to slow down, figure out what is going on. Be kind to yourself.
I know all the books say that he has to take responsibility for you to heal. Back when I thought my H was back in it, I had a lot of anger bubbling up and a similar "I don't know exactly what to do with this" because he was not ready to handle it. I wonder that if even in the best of cases, when the WH comes begging back on their hands and knees, ultra remorseful and willing to do anything to make it right-- if piecing is hard even in those circumstances, is there even a chance when things aren't perfect?
But then I also think-- life isn't perfect. Things don't work this way. What if your next step isn't needing him to show remorse for you to forgive him? What if you could process those feelings on your own, and know he simply doesn't have the capacity right now to own his hurtful behaviors and tell you he's sorry in any kind of meaningful way? Is there a way you could still let that hurt go, nothing to do with him, everything to do with you not wanting to hang onto those feelings anymore, for YOU?
I know I said this to you awhile back and I think it may be worth repeating. I wonder how much of your stuck-ness on the past has to do with being upset with him for treating you poorly, and how much it has to do with you letting yourself be treated poorly?
Hoping you can get some space for yourself today, do something nice for yourself, give yourself a break from this for a bit. The answers will come to you. I'm not worried at all.
Hi Alison,
Whilst I am not in the same place as you, I do know what it feels like to be stuck. Like a decision has to be made and you don't know what that decision is. But I've come to realise that sometimes you don't need to make a decision. You just need to let it be. Irrespective of the situation, the answer is one step in front of the other.
There is also something to be said about 'our truths'. We talk a lot here about not letting our truths be eroded by their truths. But even our truths are not fixed. They change from day to day and from minute to minute. You say you want to leave him (and that is true) and you say you want to try and work on it (and that is true also). You are searching for an answer through self reflection and also by keenly monitoring his behaviour.
Self reflection has it's place. You've done a lot of it over the last two years. You've dissected your relationship, identified areas to work on and worked on them. But you cannot change the past. It is time to leave the past behind and continue your work on you.
Monitoring his behaviour for sign also has it place. But his behaviour will change from day to day because change is hard. He is trying. Sometimes he will succeed, sometimes he will fall back into his old patters. Don't monitor too closely but watch for consistency over time. Not the daily one step back two steps forward changes.
What is really positive about your sitch is you KNOW that no-matter how this plays out - you WILL be alright.
That's a powerful position to come from and that is because of all the work you've done on yourself over the last year. Now, let it just play out. May is right, the answers will come ... but I will add .... if you stop trying to force the answers to come.
Thank you FS and May - this helps a lot.
I am noticing a pattern. There were a couple of months when I was posting here and going, 'yeah, it's mainly fine, and now and again he behaves awfully, and I have boundaries around that, but 'fine' isn't enough for me.'
I wondered if my super-tight boundaries were the thing causing 'fine' and stopping us getting to 'great' so I relaxed them a little, he acted abysmally, and I've tightened them up again and stepped up on me telling my own truth, as I see it, in respectful ways, when I see fit. I think that's a good decision for me and I certainly feel better about it.
Now we're at 'fine' again. I can list the good points: he is working incredibly hard in a very difficult job (this isn't an excuse for when he behaves badly, but it is true - he's exhausted and the work is physically and mentally demanding and at times, quite traumatic). He makes a fair financial contribution and I never need to worry about that. There's no sense that he is financially controlling or withholding, and I am not either.
He also does a fair share of housework and that generally isn't a problem. I'm working at home right now so I do more of that and the day-to-day childcare, but he pulls his weight at the weekends on both, and he does respect my work and doesn't expect me to be 100% working and 100% housewife at the same time. If I'm tired or bored or can't be bothered and the housework slides, he considers that to be 'our' job to sort out and not mine. I value that a lot.
He is accountable to me where he is and when I can expect to see him. He can sometimes be a bit annoying when I am trying to pin down his working pattern, but I don't have any doubts that is related to a continuing EA or PA. He texts me when he's at work, checks in with me and sees if there's anything I need, and he asks me before taking on extra shifts. He lets me know when he is going to be late. When he goes go out for GAL, he generally arranges this with me.
He is not controlling about my GAL. I could see my friends or get out every evening if I wanted to, and he'd never interfere or try to stop me, even if it meant he was doing a double shift of work and childcare, or was responsible for the cooking several nights in a row. It's never a problem.
I am doing cooking for all of us and all washing again. I told him I wasn't going to, he said fine, and I felt so petty about it - and silly - given that it isn't extra work for me - that I quietly started again. He is generally pretty good at expressing gratitude for these sorts of things. I don't feel domestically taken for granted.
I have a BUT feeling and I don't know where it is coming from. FS, you're right, I would be totally fine without him. In some ways, it would be practically harder and in others it would be easier. May - I think you're right in that there's always been a part of me that has wanted him down on bended knee, full of remorse, and begging for forgiveness. I guess there's a bit of me that wants our shared story to be that he was the 'bad guy' and I 'forgave him' as much as he needs the story to be that I was incompetent, and he came back to 'save' me. Neither of these are true stories. The true story is, we had a bad marriage that we slid into through selfishness, neglect and emotional immaturity on both our parts. He blew this up with a short-lived EA, I reacted to that incredibly destructively (I basically had a tantrum that lasted a full year!) and we got caught in a cycle where his anger caused some damage to me, and my distress caused me to be controlling, which damaged him.
And now - here we are. I think we do both hold back. And I think we both are really resistant to 'accepting' the story of the other. There's a part of me that wants him to be so incredibly sorry he treats me like a princess FOREVER and there's a part of him that wants me to be so incredibly needy and broken that I treat him like a hero FOREVER. And I'm not treating him like a hero and he doesn't like it, and he's not treating me like a precious princess and I don't like it.
I know that's not a mature or attractive thing to admit to, but it is true so I may as well lay it out there. I am sure this thing with my promotion at work ties into that. I wanted him to be delighted and amazed and treasure me and shower me with praise and affection, and he still wants me to be needy and desperate and looking up to him as my saviour, and neither of us really knew what to do as two mature and equal adults in that moment.
I guess it is new to us. We were very young when we got together (I am 37 and we've been together since I was 22) and perhaps some of this is the growing pains of a long relationship. Perhaps we are moving towards a less idealised and more equal way of doing things. Perhaps we're moving apart, and towards a civilised divorce.
I really don't know yet. Thanks for bearing with me while I try to work it out!
Alison
Life is not perfect. We are all just trying to navigate through it. That he is (partly) empathetic to your emotional requirements is a good start. That you recognise that your relationship being only 'fine' because you had a mental block stopping it from being 'great' is a good start.
Like life, none of us is perfect. That he fails to live up to your expectations is due to YOUR expectations. He is working through his sh!t. His intentions (from my reading) are good it is just he cannot meet ALL your needs, either because he cannot know all your needs (do you even know what you need at any given time?) or he is still protecting himself from getting/causing hurt.
Separations are a traumatic experience for all parties. The WA might try and bury that trauma with drugs, alcohol, fuel, food, working out, work, but at some point they have to deal with it. Your H is dealing with it. Keep your boundaries, but understand that he has them too.
PS - My H has had to deal with it too I think. The path back is too hard so he has chosen a fresh slate. My understanding of that is half way to accepting, which is half way to forgiving. We are all on a journey. You, me and our H's.
This is really helpful, FS - thank you.
I think traumatic is the right word. I know - we have talked about it a little - that during our separation he was on autopilot and just buried himself in work and this massive project he had on. He says he was not seeing EA woman during this time, and I believe that. He worked constantly. It was a once-in-a-career thing and I think he just focussed entirely on that and put the marriage entirely out of mind. In some ways, I am quite envious of his capacity to do that - to insulate himself from what was happening. I was in a very very quiet period of my work, and focussed on my own pain and the marriage to the point of obsession - I couldn't manage to put it aside even for a day - and as I was in that state, even me being in the same room as him was a reminder of the thing he just did not have the capacity to think about and deal with, and triggered all sorts of push-away behaviour from him, which was angry and abusive and horrible.
Now we're both on a more even keel with work, and I think he's perhaps still processing the separation, and I'm further ahead than he is in some ways, but in others no nearer to working through that trauma. The shock - that even though the marriage was terrible and that things were impossible - he really did leave and I really did change the locks on him. That it is possible to end or break a family - that had been unthinkable for so long (as it is to all of us) but it loomed into view as possible, and you really can't ever come back from that. Marriage is always a choice, which means either of us could choose not to be married. It is kind of awful to live with that knowledge - just as it was awful to live with the sense that this was it, it was terrible and unfixable and we were both trapped in it forever. It was so so so horrible and I know we both have so much fear about going back to that - both the pain we were suffering and the ways we were both individually behaving. I never want to be so flailing and distressed and desperate, and so willing to absorb abuse, and I don't think he wants to go back to feeling so trapped and frightened that he lashed out the way he did.
Thinking of it this way helps me actually to have a lot more compassion for him.
Just checking in. I agree that it's ok to feel stuck sometimes, and to sit with things for a while. Eventually you or he or you both will move one way or the other, but just sitting is not a bad thing. You won't be in this place forever, when they say it's a marathon not a sprint that means either for D or R I think. It's a slow process xx
Just updating.
After all I posted about the 'good aspects' of how understanding H was about my work, the housework, etc, we had another skirmish on Friday night. The dog had made a mess in the hallway. I cleared it up, and it was fine, but H started ranting and shouting about how I wasn't looking after him properly (this is not true). I said, 'you don't get to shout at me like that,' and left the room. He carried on shouting and ranting, on his own, for at least another two minutes as I was upstairs. He went out for a couple of hours - I don't know where - and when he came back went into another fully fledged rant at me about how I had no right to be upset about his EA - that I'd treated him appallingly over it and really he'd done nothing wrong other than reach out to someone he needed. I have literally no idea how he got from being annoyed that there was a puppy puddle in the hallway to his infidelity and my reaction to it. I asked him what had put this in his mind, and he said I had total double standards and had no right to demand respectful treatment after all I had put him through in the aftermath of his EA. Now I admit, I was distressed and furious and acted totally irrationally during that time - pre-DB days - and I have already admitted that, apologised for it, I would not act in that way if I had my time again and I do not act like it now. But I won't allow him to use it as a lever on me whenever there's a domestic infraction. I gave him some home truths - telling him that if it was emotional support he was after, he'd have gone to a therapist or a good friend, not picked up a pretty 25 year blonde where the support consisted of sexting and secret meetings, and if he was kidding himself about that, he could go right ahead but I wasn't buying it. I left the room then.
In the morning he was apologetic - reluctantly - and said he'd over-reacted and was out of line. I said 'fine' and left it at that. The thing is, it isn't anything I want to hear right now. I believe he's not had much of a heart-change. So long as he isn't stressed and I am doing and saying what he wants me to do, everything is 'fine'. If I disagree, refuse to be bullied, or there's some domestic or parenting difficulty that causes him some stress, he's a very cruel and nasty person, full of manipulation. I believe deep down he still has that abuser's mentality 'everything would be okay if she'd just make sure the dog didn't make a mess / did what I think is best with the parenting / leave me alone more' and that seems to justify his behaviour. His apologies are worth nothing.
I've been avoiding him since. He's now annoyed with me because I am being quiet and holding a grudge, even though he's apologised. I said, 'I'm just processing, that's all,' and got out of the room. I don't want an R talk, I don't want to listen to more of his opinions or excuses where he attempts to convince me that his behaviour is both perfectly acceptable and also my fault, and I don't really feel like trying to make him see what an utter %^#W he is being. I just don't want to be around him.
Edited to add: one of the other things he said was that he was very unhappy and felt angry with me all the time, constantly triggered. I asked him what triggered him - what was it I was actually doing that made him so angry - and he said it was my 'double standards' - I asked him to help me understand this, and he then said I was mocking him by asking too many questions and I refused to listen to anything I didn't like. I said I'd listen to him say whatever he wanted, but I wasn't going to sit there for his ranting, nor was I going to pretend I agreed with him about his bullying and infidelity being acceptable to me, when they weren't at the time and never would be. And then he blew up and I had to end the conversation. The man is deranged.
I know I can protect myself from him when he starts raging and sulking. It doesn't really hurt me any more. But I do carry hurt from the past. I don't want to rely on his remorse and sorrow to let go of that and feel better - because this isn't to do with him and our M but it is to with my well being.
This is a bit of of a pattern with me: I can do brilliant boundaries, and for a while he will respond and treat me with respect, and when I do that that space and safety, my feelings about the way he treated me in the past bubble up.
I wish I'd had boundaries like this a year or two years ago. If I had, I'd have divorced him by now. I am not sure how knowing that - 100% - is compatible with piecing. I don't think I can piece things together with him without him really getting what he did, and being sorry for it - and there is sometimes glimmers of that, but not in any sustained way - he just doesn't have the emotional maturity to do that self reflection.
Alison,
I am so glad you shared this. I hope others are reading here. Eventually every person here will come a place of better understanding, strength and detachment. For some it will be weeks-months, however for most it will be a couple - several years. When that hindsight becomes 20-20 we can reflect back and see how what we did and how we reacted did not work for us and worse, it held us back. Most of the time that includes the poor boundaries. We are leading by emotions and fear and not from a place of strength and resolve. I want people to read your words and try and put into practice what you are saying because they too will come to a place where they wish they had done that earlier. You are stronger and more detached. I can see NOW so clearly what I should have done from day 1 in my sitch!
The way our S treats us does not have to hurt us -- we either allow it to or we don't ...
And no, Alison, you do not have to rely on his sorrow and remorse to feel better. None of us do and that is part of healthy detachment and not allowing others to control our emotional process. However there is an exception to that and I think that is what you might be running into now. Piecing a M back together involves both people acknowledging their mistakes and atoning themselves. In order to rebuild trust and intimacy after betrayals and separation, there is a lot of individual work to do first (or simultaneously). You have said yourself that he doesn't have emotional maturity to do self reflection. You have also said that he lacks remorse and worse he bullies you when you are vulnerable.
So what I am suggesting is that you don't need him to be sorrowful/remorseful to feel better, but you will need that if you are going to rebuild a marriage. Right now your home is built on a foundation of sand. You will need a complete overhaul and new restructuring. And it's completely okay to let it be for some time and figure out if you are willing to put that kind of work in. Even if you are, it doesn't mean he will or is even able to. Perhaps your feeling stuck and ambivalence around D is some sadness in this realization now that you have looked at him more objectively (given your detachment). I agree with others, there is no hurry to make a move.
I know in time you will create a new foundation and home, with or without him there. I know you know it too.
Blu
Thanks Blu, this is really helpful. I've been thinking about what you said all day, actually. I am very confident that I can be happy and fine without him changing his ways or expressing any remorse. I guess that is what detachment is: and I am experiencing that more and more each day. I know one of his rants, or him telling me how unhappy and angry and how generally unsatisfactory I was, would have had me in anxious spirals and tears for DAYS a year or so ago. I look back on my old threads and all I see is me chasing him and making excuses for how horribly he treated me in response to my chasing him. I CANNOT BELIEVE I cooked meals for his freezer and took care of him while he was sick, all the while when he was throwing such horrible verbal abuse my way. I do not recognise that person and am actually a bit embarrassed by the insanity of it. I am so glad I journalled so much in those months - reading that over is the best cure for any backsliding I know of.
I bet if I was in the same postcode as you, you'd have come around to my house and given me an ACTUAL 2X4 during that time. And I'd have deserved it. I have some way to go, but I am so so happy I am not in that place any more.
Today I've been fine. I hung out with the kids, did some housework, enjoyed watching a film on my own and indulging in a bit of pampering time (I badly need the assistance of both a hairdresser and a beautician but we're only slowly coming out of lockdown here so DIY will have to do for the time being!) and did not find myself fretting and worrying and stressing about his emotional state. It is such a relief and a release. I will be fine.
The marriage may not be fine. I am more and more clear that for the marriage to work, he will need to communicate differently more consistently than he is doing now.
The decor in the downstairs room of the house is a little shabby. I have booked someone to come and give a quotation on repainting. I don't care to do it myself, H would probably want to save the money and do the painting himself but he just does not have time or energy at the moment, and we can afford it. I think getting the house into a fresher state will help if it comes to wanting to sell it. That would not be my first choice - I would prefer to buy him out - but having the option feels good to me. And I can enjoy freshly painted walls no matter what else happens.
Hi Alison,
I am a firm believer in painting the house while you still live there. It drives me nuts to paint it only when you're getting ready to move! Somehow clean, freshly painted walls are so, so soothing to me. In our old house, the old owner decided to do a really terrible paint job between the time we purchased it/inspected it and moved in-- we think he wanted to paint over some of the holes from art/TV on the wall-- and instead of actually trying he slapped on paint and didn't get all the way to the ceiling. We lived like that for YEARS, always staring at this horrible paint job and the gap between the paint and the ceiling. We only painted it when we got ready to sell and I wanted to cry when I saw the house all staged and beautifully painted. So I'm really glad you're taking this one on now. You deserve to enjoy them for awhile no matter what. I almost feel like it is symbolic in a way-- you're taking charge of that which is within your control and improving what you can. You're focused there. You're in no hurry. You're not ignoring your H-- you're tracking him and quietly making notes of his behavior and letting that help you towards your eventual decision. I am really happy for where you are right now. Re-reading your old threads also makes me feel more hopeful for myself-- this is a path we all need to take in our own ways, and we'll get there eventually.
How's your work situation? Are you in a new position now, and if so how is that feeling?
Thanks May. I'm actually pretty excited about getting the downstairs painted. I will choose five or six possible colours I'd be happy with and let H make a selection from them. He lives here and it is his house after all, but he doesn't have the time or energy or interest to get more involved than that right now. I am also going to have a de-clutter and sort out of mine and the kids' stuff - it will make for a nicer environment for me (I am going to be at home all the time for the foreseeable...) and again, if we are going to sell up, it will also be a preparation for that.
My work situation is... well - the new position is pretty like the old position, but with a pay rise and some more responsibility and more flexible working hours. Though actually given the situation with online working, and a lot of our processes needing to change, a lot of the 'perks' other than the pay have been swallowed up and a lot of the extra responsibilities have multiplied. I can't complain - it is safe work, and I am not at risk from redundancy and so many people are either putting themselves at risk to earn money or are on the brink of losing their livelihoods. I am very lucky but I do miss my colleagues. I actually have an interview at work with my boss' boss in a couple of weeks time to discuss the new role and what goals and objectives I have for the role and me personally. I think I want to think of these things more generally so perhaps take that new start as a time to make sure the work/life/me/family balance is where I'd like it to be.
I've also been thinking about cash.
At the moment we don't have any joint accounts. All of the family bills come out of my account, and H pays me 1/3 of the total of these costs into my account. (I earn about double what he does, so we pay a percentage of family bills related to our income, if that makes sense). We both have roughly the same amount of spending money. I save half of a mine in another account he knows about and doesn't have access to, and we have a 'family' savings pot that I transfer into each month - and so does he. But that account is in my name too. This looks like I'm a financially controlling maniac - but the only reason we have these savings accounts and bill payments set up is because I did it.
A while ago he said he wasn't happy with this arrangement and he wanted a joint account we'd both pay into for the joint expenses and for the family savings to be in a joint account we both had access to. This is totally reasonable, so I set up the new accounts but they are lying unused at the moment and there's no point transferring the debits and orders over to them until he goes into the bank and gives them his signature and does his bit in getting added to the account. (He can actually do this electronically - I did - so his working hours or lockdown are no good reasons not to).
I've reminded him a couple of times but I'm not chasing him for it. He's very reliable about paying his portion of family expenses into my account. Now I'll be earning a bit more I think it is probably fair I take on a slightly greater % of our shared expenses - I would expect him to increase his % if he got a pay-rise - so I am going to crunch some numbers about that this evening and email them over to him and see what he says. This isn't really a 180 - I've always handled bills and finances. I am mildly annoyed be both complains about me having control of this, but drags his feet about implementing a joint account - but whatever. But I do wonder if this contributes to him feeling controlled and acting like a baby. I am not sure what a 180 would be on this matter - I think I've done all I can, really.
The other thing I've been thinking about is my self care and GAL. I pay for my own IC and I have a set budget (small) each month I blow on lipstick and earrings and treats for my dog and other nonsense. The rest I save and that's MY fun money - not family money. I would really like to get something very nice for myself because I deserve it. So on my list of things to do this week is some research into that.
Journalling:
well, I have decided I am going to be getting away for a few days - nearly a week - with dog and kids. I've booked us a cottage somewhere in the countryside. It has good wifi and a big enclosed garden and is near the sea. I've also bought myself some new books and some nice things - games and DVDS etc - for the kids. We will probably spent a lot of time loafing around, a lot of time on board games, and a lot of time walking. I am so excited about it. I am not sure if I can take our car or not - H may need it - but if he does I can hire one no problem.
I am so excited about this! I really really need a change of air and scene.
Hi Alison,
This sounds so fabulous... what a perfect way to spend (part of?) your fun money. Will you be able to take real vacation from work, too, or will you be working remotely? I hope even if so, you can take at least a few days to totally relax and give yourself a break. I'm sure that being away from your H will also help with all of that.
Thinking of you!! I've been reading your old threads and you give me hope that I can make the same mental transformation(s) you have.
xx M
Thanks May!
I think I will have to work a couple of hours each day - I am an early riser and my kids are not, so hopefully I can get that done and dusted before 10am then we can have the rest of the day together - though I suspect they will want some loaf / telly time around our walks too, so there will be time for me to check in.
I hope you can make a transformation too. I hope my transformation carries on, and sticks.
It strikes me that I am not really piecing, and I am not DBing either. I am just acting as if I have the life I want. Which means whenever H offers me something that isn't to my liking - the blame, the sulking, the ranting, the immaturity, I just make a quiet and peaceful 'no' (not even verbally, most of the time) and go towards what I actually do want.
Whether that drives us entirely apart or whether he gets it and starts acting in ways that are compatible with a relationship with me is entirely up to him. I don't feel afraid of either eventuality right now. What is more awful is me having to act in ways that don't sit well with me just to earn or win his good behaviour.
What I am also doing is being as honest with myself as possible and no denial or excuse making at all. First I had to stop doing it for my H and stop considering his work stress, childhood issues, etc etc as adequate reasons for ME (not him, but me) choosing to absorb behaviour that was not okay. Then I had to do precisely the same thing for myself: no excuses, no playing the victim. It's easier to be sad and moan about it then it is to accept that what I want from H is not on offer and make decisions for myself based on that truth.
It also helps to know - as I have been told here - that both piecing, letting go of the rope, detaching and ending the relationships are more processes that happen in my head, and the sum total of lots of little tiny actions rather than one big R talk or grand gesture of romance or angry outburst.
The separation or the coming back together or visits to the lawyers or sleeping elsewhere aren't irrevocable decisions. I am not saying 'no, never ever,' I am saying, 'what you are offering today is not what I want so I am going to go towards what makes me happy' and I will keep saying that every single day in small ways. Perhaps that means I will change direction, or he will, or we will come apart. I don't know and that isn't in my control. I don't even think in our circumstances, which are financially stable, a D would make that much difference. A D ends the legal entanglement, but not the relationship, after all. Even NC doesn't really end the relationship.
After all, there are plenty of people who are D'd and have been for years and are still in toxic relationships either with their former spouses, or with the memory of the relationship. I won't be in that place in the future and I won't be in it now. I wish my H well and I hope he manages to work out a way of being in relationship with me that works for him, but I don't accept what is on offer now and I won't help out with his feelings related to that. What has really helped - and took a very long time in coming - is taking total, radical responsibility for the state of my marriage. I wasn't responsible for one tiny shred of his behaviour. But I was 100% responsible - and still am - for choosing to sign up to it. I needed to really look at the reasons for my willingness to be abused, emotionally neglected, blamed and demonised - what was I getting out of that and how did it serve me? - before I could move towards better choices.
It takes AGES. I am still not where I want to be. But I am happy today.
A weeklong escape by the sea sounds dreamy, good for you for making it happen for you and the kids. Space could be exactly what your situation needs right now. Nothing like long evening strolls to clear your mind and bring you back to the root of your heart’a needs and desires.
Reading your posts, I see such a strong, determined, analytical and wise person speaking her truth. But I am going to play devils’ advocate for a minute, take it or leave it (but love me nonetheless as it is all with good intention). You have come so far from the person who would play the game of weepy wife manipulating H to get the emotional attention you want and need (I don’t see it as such myself, but you have mentioned something like this in your posts over the months). Something that I am always working on myself is trying to be aware of the pendulum swing. For example, I have a loving, strong mother who due to my adoring Dad’s work schedule, was often left for weeks alone with us kids. She was good at boundaries and knew that she needed alone time, space and to execute her own free will when she could. Which ended up looking somewhat like abandonment when she would travel or take time for her own self-care. I stepped into her shoes (as the oldest of four kids) and often took on the role of ‘caretaker’ to my dad and siblings when she was gone (and mind you, she didn’t leave us all that often, but enough). So for me, showing love is taking care of other people in the absence of a primary caretaker. I won the love game because she was grateful and my siblings and father were grateful. But what that turned into as I became a wife and mother is that I am the caretaker (recipient of ALL the love and gratitude) and didn’t know how to take care of myself (and we all know how that story ends up...). So the pendulum swing from my ‘good at self-care mama’ to me is that we have taken opposite approaches. And neither are completely healthy.
So my challenge is this: is your current space a result of an extreme pendulum swing (I need H to SEE me and my emotions for validation -> he’s unhealthy and our relationship is as well -> I need to be the opposite of what I have been in our relationship?). This could be a major over-simplification on my part, and I know that abuse is a thing with H, so I am not suggesting that you back down from your boundaries. But is there a self-protecting side of you that is unwilling to meet H somewhere closer to his side of the story? Not even the middle, per se, but a few feet? And again, all I know is what you share, So you may be reaching out or finding common ground IRL and it’s not meeting your needs so you know the answer to this already. In which case, keep doing what you are doing because whatever it is, you sound strong and amazing. And at the end of the day, only you know what you need to do to save YOU.
And of course, this is all in the light of saving something (a M) that you may or may not be willing to sacrifice yourself for. That it really is in your court to decide if his efforts are good enough. So again, take this or leave this train of thought of mine.
Xxx
But is there a self-protecting side of you that is unwilling to meet H somewhere closer to his side of the story?
Hi Sage, thanks for your message. I THINK this is the heart of it, and I will try to answer, but if you think I am misunderstanding you, please leap in and correct.
My H's story is that I was needy, overdependent and during my PND and after his EA I treated him terribly. He said he felt like his only role in life was to manage my emotions. He's absolutely right on this. He doesn't really admit to abusive behaviour, but he will say this state of affairs, caused by me, got him so angry and in his anger he wasn't really responsible for what he was doing, I was, because I was the person who had made him angry. So I meet him 100% on his side of the story about my behaviour, and I don't doubt his abuse came from anger, but I don't take responsibility for that, only for continuing to allow it for so long.
I've changed all those behaviours that triggered his anger and I also no longer accept his abuse, which isn't really in the face of emotional neediness any more, but just me having some kind of mind of my own, gently disagreeing, or him just being sullen and drunk and wanting a punch bag. I don't allow it any more.
I know what you mean about pendulums, but isn't that what a 180 is?
I'm not cold or invulnerable. I have close friends, a much much closer relationships with both of my kids, a faith community etc. I don't broadcast my business, but I have a few friends I can speak to about what is going on with me, share fears and sadness, get comfort and suggestions and validations.
H is more or less an empty cupboard. It isn't that he can't comfort in distress, or validate anger (I get how that could be difficult for him and triggering of old, unhealthy situations) but he can't even smile when I have good news.
If I am missing your point or you have some suggestions for me, let me know. I am not totally sure what you mean by moving closer to his story - I do share his story about my part in the past - he doesn't have a story about his own part in the past because he is apparently not responsible for his behaviour or reactions - and in the present, I have no idea what he thinks is going on between us. Now and again he says all I do is argue with him and criticise him, and by that he means that now and again I have my own perspectives on how to raise our children or live our lives, and he isn't available for discussion or compromise. I think he presents me with two choices: ignore him and get on with my own life as I see fit, or obey him with a smile on my face, anticipating everything he needs but refuses to express as a need. I've tried the second and I hate it so I am going with the first and finding happiness there.
Alison, I hope you have a wonderful holiday, it sounds pretty blissful! Your M can wait. One day either your H will move towards you and you can move towards him, or you can continue to drift on until you've had enough. You don't seem in any rush and are happy in your own self right now. That's the most important bit!
I am happy in myself, Dilly - though sadly, getting significantly less sex than you are. I am very jealous!!
I have had a pretty full on week, getting ready for the holiday, sorting out house a bit, finishing up some stuff at work and arranging cover for what's important while I am away. We're just about packed up and looking forward to it.
H has been fine the last week or so. He is really very good around the house, despite his other flaws, and even though he's working really hard, he's done a lot around the house and with Youngest, and made it very easy for me to have GAL this week too. I find it easy to express genuine gratitude for him and I think he appreciates that. He's been very decent towards me in his language and behaviour, which has made this week easier, and I appreciate that too (though I'm not about to start thanking him for keeping a civil tongue in his head!)
I have been keeping an eye on what I DON'T say. There's very little on these boards about piecing - though I am not sure if that is where my heart is - but I am sure a lot of the stuff we don't say - the STFU that is so important after BD - needs saying and discussing properly and carefully during piecing. I can let things go - minor domestic annoyances, differences in opinions, him being a bit grumpy or snappy after a night shift. That all feels an appropriate part of living peacefully with another person and I can tell - when I am a bit untidy or can't park the car or cook something that he doesn't like - he does the same thing, and I appreciate that.
But there are some things that I either have to say, and have heard, and have him take action on, or I need to accept they will never change, and make a decision based on that.
I am really not sure we ever got into piecing, as I was so busy validating, doing my 180s and Sing TFU that the stuff that was really important to me - the reasons why I was so desperate for him to get out of the house - have never been appropriately addressed. That's a lesson to me.
Hi Alison,
I know I read too much on all this stuff but I've read over and over that trying to work through infidelity without a really good MC is nearly impossible, that it is like doing brain surgery as a layperson. I imagine that for you, the EA was a part of it but the repetitive, ongoing betrayal in his actions and words towards you both before and after the EA is even harder to address than the EA. I wonder if once the EA happened, it allowed you to take your unexpressed anger and resentment over his treatment of you and push it through the justified anger channel of the EA? Then your behaviors and the dynamic between the two of you between the BD of the EA and him moving out was partially the EA but maybe mostly everything else? I think I mentioned on my own thread reading the Gottman book about trust, and betrayal can happen in so many ways. I think his behaviors towards you-- the meanness, tantrums, belittling, weird mimicking-- constitute betrayal in a major way, since the person who you signed up to be your partner should have your back, not knock you down.
Anyway, I just wanted to say I agree that piecing (should any of us ever really get there) is complicated and probably really, really difficult to navigate without a skilled therapist. I imagine you have to work through so many difficult things both alone and together. And your H not even willing to continue with an IC is a big hurdle. My H just came to talk to me and said, if I stay, I feel like I'll be both having to deal with the regret/loss/wondering of what might have been with AP, but even more, I'll have to deal with my own behavior, what i did, what it means, who I am, how I feel, how to recapture my own identity in all of this. I don't know if I can do that. You forgiving me is going to be hard enough. Me forgiving myself-- I don't even know how to go about tackling this part. I was saved from responding by D8 coming in the room. But at least he has an inkling of a portion of the work of staying together... whether he is willing to do it or not, or even wants that, is another question. For you and your H, I don't know that your H has ever really grappled either with what it means to have a healthy R with you, how to deal with his own issues and insecurities in a healthy way without dumping everything onto you. I'm glad he has been helpful and kind and I think this week apart is going to be so fabulous for you.
xoxo M
Just updating.
A lovely week away. Really nice and restful and calming. It wasn't activity packed, and there was a lot of lying around watching television, reading, messing about, playing games, but also some long walks and time by the sea. It was really great. I'd kind of promised myself that i would just take a break from being married (I don't mean go and find another man - just take a break from trying to find a way to be in healthy relation to H!) but the situation was on my mind and I found myself very anxious at some points. Anxious that H would be angry with me, anxious that this would be my life from now on, anxious about what he was doing / thinking / feeling while I was away. My detachment has been so great, but during the holiday it was - intermittent.
H, on his side, was very kind and nice and stayed in touch (I did not initiate but I was responsive). At one point he said 'nobody else would suit me except for you,' which is one of the most affectionate and heartfelt things he's said to me in a long time.
We have a pattern, I think - in that when we're quite distant (by my standards) he seems to relax, become more affectionate, less critical, and generally easier to be around. This makes him more attractive to me, so I draw closer and this seems to provoke behaviour that is unacceptable to me. I do genuinely feel this is a bit of the old push-pull at play, a bit of basic incompatibility (this plays out in our sex life too - I'm the HD partner for all kinds of closeness and connection, and he is sometimes responsive, never initiates, and if I initiate too much - conversation or affection or sex or any kind of closeness - he withdraws or lashes out in anger or nasty critical behaviour to make me go away. So I do go away, and when he feels safer / more recovered / less smothered, he makes his own tiny moves to come back close, and i'm so hurt or resentful by that point, that I can't respond. It's a really well established pattern being played out at lower intensity between us right now, but it is still there.
I think the key to this is GAL and detachment - whether we stay married or not - but I have no idea how to build a loving connection to a man who has such a low tolerance for company. I think we may just be basically incompatible in this area. I think I can be too intense for him at times, and I have made changes to dial that back, but i can't exist in a marriage that only functions if I hold my breath and make myself small whenever I am in the room with him.
I imagine that for you, the EA was a part of it but the repetitive, ongoing betrayal in his actions and words towards you both before and after the EA is even harder to address than the EA. I wonder if once the EA happened, it allowed you to take your unexpressed anger and resentment over his treatment of you and push it through the justified anger channel of the EA? Then your behaviors and the dynamic between the two of you between the BD of the EA and him moving out was partially the EA but maybe mostly everything else? I think I mentioned on my own thread reading the Gottman book about trust, and betrayal can happen in so many ways. I think his behaviors towards you-- the meanness, tantrums, belittling, weird mimicking-- constitute betrayal in a major way, since the person who you signed up to be your partner should have your back, not knock you down.
You have hit the nail on the head here, May. I don't think about the EA much at all any more. What hurt the most wasn't the actual actions - it was short lived, but intense - there was a LOT of contact over messaging and secret meetings, but I clocked what was going on fairly quickly. He denied it for a while, tried to gaslight me and say I was getting depressed / anxious and should see a doctor (!) and when presented with evidence, became more or less remorseful and transparent. I do understand why it happened. What hurts - and still does hurt, really - is that he was very definitely the pursuer in that dynamic - he was attentive and eager and WANTED closeness and interaction with her - and he never ever pursues / woos / courts me in that way (with me he's a very much silent-acts-of-service should be a good enough replacement for kind words and a sex life kind of man) and when I attempt to court him, he is generally overwhelmed by it and does the withdrawal / lashing out thing. I find THAT much much harder to come to terms with - and the ways he sees fit to behave when he's lashing out - than the EA itself. I think I do generally trust he isn't in touch with her any more - I don't snoop but I could if I wanted to, and he's transparent about where he is and what he is doing. But I don't trust that he wants me in the way he wanted her. I don't feel courted or desired and wanted in any way. I feel that he's committed to doing the right thing. I know everyone has to start somewhere and that commitment is a lot - but still, isn't not being loved. I don't feel loved. We have had the 5 Love Languages talk. I know he feels loved when I do domestic work that gives him rest and space, and then leave him alone to rest and recharge. He knows how I feel loved, and I do think he tries to do that, and I can see him now and again attempting to show empathy by delivering these 'empathic phrases' in a fairly rehearsed and robotic way, but he's cold.
There's not much on this board for piecing. I am going to read Blu's old threads, as I know she struggled with piecing and had the sense of disappointment that I had for a long time. He's been back just under a year and I think I am heart-deep disappointed and my marriage is most peaceful when I am in full on distancing, self protection and GAL mode.
Hi Alison -
I'm still reading along even though I don't post much.
I'm glad you had a restful holiday - it sounds like something you needed. Sometimes removing ourselves from day to day life is very helpful.
I only have one pertinent thing to comment on - it's the part where your H struggles to show you love. Maybe it's a man/woman thing or maybe it's something else - I am definitely no expert here - but I too have in the past struggled how to show my W love and affection in the way she may have wanted.
During our M, I always felt clumsy and weird and that I was either doing too much or not enough. I grew up learning that my emotions and feelings were not valid and did not matter, so there was a huge developmental part of my life that is just a big empty void. I grew up thinking it was normal to be that way - you don't know what you don't know, right? I have spent the past 2 years coping with and trying to overcome this hurdle - it is proving to be one of my life's biggest challenges/growth opportunities.
It's not that I didn't love W - it's that I didnt know how to show it. I hope that makes sense.
I don't know your H's history with the past - but perhaps that might be a small part of what's going on here too? Just a thought -
Anyway - I'm glad you're feeling more even and rested.
Take care and stay strong.
Hi Alison,
Here is the thread on piecing.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2832573&page=1You are correct that there is not very much info on the topic in general. I wonder if that is because so few of us make it there, people might stop posting when they get to that point, and also I would add for me that visiting here became painful reminders of the past when I was trying to move forward. You can see how much I struggled with that when you read my threads.
So Sandi and myself laid out these lists of conditions that we believe you need in order to piece an M back together again. I am going to reread what I wrote and see what I can add now that i am a couple more years out. I am not sure there is any one size fits all approach, but I do stand firmly that it takes TWO committed people. The common thread in all of our situations when we come to this board is that we are the only one that is willing. So the focus shifts to "how can I get my partner willing or how can I get them back." And sadly, we cannot control that. We can only let them go and become a better partner/person our-self and just hope that they see that and decide to come back.
I am continually impressed at your insight into yourself and your M dynamics! You describe the classic distance-pursuit scenario playing out between you guys again and again. And you describe frustration that as you pull back, he softens and shows improvements, you find yourself re-attracted, but you also know once you move towards him he will soon become shitty. So, if you want my advice, you stay right where you are and you don;t move. You don't have to pull back but you don't have to move in. You can accept his pleasant and loving actions from your safe space. You can continue to wait and take your time. As you can see this takes sooo long to unfold, what is a little more time anyways?
Can you just remain in your safe space? This is a place for you and there is not a label for this -- such as, DBing, Ring, Piecing-- but you are holding a place for yourself that perhaps was lost in so many years of grief, fear and disappointment. Can you simply accept his loving and supportive behavior only? Take his lead. If he expresses anger or frustration, you can pull back further. If he asks for more, you can share your fears and tell him you will no longer tolerate his cruelties ever again. It's as if you are very slowly retraining him on how you will allow him to treat you. Teaching takes time. Re-teaching takes even longer.
I do actually believe people can change. I have watched it happen with my H and with myself. The hard part is to see into the future at how very, very long this takes and how very slowly it can happen. We are not the same people we were 20 years ago, 10 years ago and even 5 or 2 years ago. But we can shape the people we will become in the future years to come. You never have to accept his shitty behavior again and you can also continue to do better yourself with or without him there. This will unfold in time.
Blu
don't feel courted or desired and wanted in any way. I feel that he's committed to doing the right thing. I know everyone has to start somewhere and that commitment is a lot - but still, isn't not being loved. I don't feel loved. We have had the 5 Love Languages talk. I know he feels loved when I do domestic work that gives him rest and space, and then leave him alone to rest and recharge. He knows how I feel loved, and I do think he tries to do that, and I can see him now and again attempting to show empathy by delivering these 'empathic phrases' in a fairly rehearsed and robotic way, but he's cold.
Alison, I think my H could say the exact same words as you, here. He did say much of these same words with the IC yesterday. He doesn't feel loved by me. My LL are your H's and yours are my H's. He thinks I'm faking it to be physically close to him. He doesn't feel desired or wanted by me. I don't think I would respond as your H does, but I have often felt that the silent acts of service should suffice. I'm in a different place now, and I also feel committed to understanding and showing my partner in the future (whoever that may be) love in a way he feels and understands. I feel that step is one your H has yet to make, understanding that you are a different human being than he is, you have different needs and wants and desires, and his job as your H is to tell you he loves you in a way you get, not just in the way he would like to be told. That is his work to do and not yours, though I suppose if you want to you could tell him what you need and reinforce him for any baby steps in that direction.
So I worry about you that you'll always remain stuck here. Not quite bad enough to pull the trigger and go. Not really good enough to stay and be happy. I was so curious how this trip would be for you mentally, and it is interesting to me that you had some anxiety, lost a bit of the detachment, got pulled slightly back into the dynamic with your H. I was guessing you would take that space and continue to detach and move in that direction... I don't know why I thought that, but I did. I am just wondering why the space opened up a view back to the M for you, and all the attendant concerns, rather than the vista beyond.
I feel you are totally set to just cruise where you are, if you want to. You have all the tools you need to protect yourself and your boundaries and not let one single drop of your H's behavior affect you emotionally. But-- is that a life to live? The sentence about a marriage where you can only exist when you make yourself small made me sad.
I don't disagree with Blu's advice to just stay where you are. I think that is good advice. I guess I would just wonder what the trigger would be to decide where you are isn't good enough and what you might do then. I feel at some point, your H may be open to change... maybe Blu's point is that if you don't move, he'll eventually lean more and more in. Do you see yourself ever telling him, really, how you feel about all this? Telling him all the things you put in this post? would he listen? understand? be willing to change?
A LOT to think about here, and thank you to all who have posted.
Blu - I have never seen that piecing thread!! Thank you so much for posting it. I have given it a quick read and on my first impression, I think I have been going down the wrong track in lots of ways. I have still been mainly DBing. I think some of my DB stuff - like the boundaries and the validation - are things I plan on keeping in my life always. But I have not been doing many of the other things, and I can see already from the lists on that thread that I have been making many mistakes. I also really appreciate reading your early threads - not that I am happy that it was difficult for you and that on many days you wanted to throw in the towel - but it makes me feel a bit less crazy that after all those months of wanting him back, and faithful, and committed, now he is and I am still not happy. I think he feels that way too.
IronWill - yes, I think, as much as I hate to admit it, we do have a quite exaggerated Mars and Venus thing going on in our marriage. Though I have been incredibly explicit with him. 'Bring me flowers now and again. Kiss me now and again for no reason. Initiate sex now and again and tell me you enjoy what we do together. Tell me in words I am special to you. Tell me you think about me during the day now and again.' I have been as blunt as that. I don't think he does not know what I need or what makes me feel loved. He has stopped trying to shame me or mock me for those needs - which he used to do all the time - but he hasn't started meeting them. And after a lot of self examination, I don't think those needs are unreasonable. He needs to be left alone and I do that to the extent that most evenings we are not in the same room together after the kids are in bed.
So I worry about you that you'll always remain stuck here. Not quite bad enough to pull the trigger and go. Not really good enough to stay and be happy. I was so curious how this trip would be for you mentally, and it is interesting to me that you had some anxiety, lost a bit of the detachment, got pulled slightly back into the dynamic with your H. I was guessing you would take that space and continue to detach and move in that direction... I don't know why I thought that, but I did. I am just wondering why the space opened up a view back to the M for you, and all the attendant concerns, rather than the vista beyond.
Yes, I worry about that too. I don't want to be unfaithful and I don't have any interactions with men that are not 100% honourable - but I am guarding myself very carefully from socialising with male friends alone because, to be honest, it wouldn't take much to turn my head at the moment. I have not told my H that - I don't want to make that sort of threat, and it would be received as such, but I can certainly see how in a SSM an affair can happen. It is always the wrong thing to do, and I will divorce him in preference to cheating on him, but I think the corrosive and painful effect of having basic intimacy needs unmet and being shamed for having them has a really awful affect on a person. I have great GAL and lots of friends and interests - I'm almost grateful for our separation as it forced me to take action there, and it was needed. But that doesn't take the place of an intimate partner, and that feeling of really being wanted by someone, chosen above all others. I do not have that. There's no saying I would have it if I left him, of course. I take care of myself and have a good job and wide social circle so I reckon I'm a bit of a catch - but there are many excellent women and men who don't want to be single, and are. I guess I am choosing a practically-based marriage over singleness right now, but I may not always.
I don't know why being away from home disrupted my attachment. I didn't have any feelings that he would be unfaithful or anything like that. It wasn't that kind of anxiety. it just seemed a major move on my part - planning and booking and going away on a vacation without him, without much discussion with him, without asking him. I wasn't trying to hurt him - I just knew I'd have a better time without his company, and I didn't see any need to consult him on what I spent my own money and free time on. It kind of showed up the real state of things between us right now.
This will be long. But I am going to use the guidelines from the piecing thread to do a bit of an audit on where I am now, and what changes I might want to or be ready to make.
1. I often read posters ask how they will know when their WAS/WS is coming back and what signs to look for. My response to that is usually the same, "when your S wants back in, you will see a changed person and you will know. You won't need to ask when it happens because your instincts will tell you and you will feel the change." They will come to you and show you a person that is remorseful, transparent, and they will tell you in one way or another that they want you back. Do not fall for false starts or anything less than that.
He is extremely transparent. I have access to all his devices. I don't feel the need to check, but I could if I wanted to. He says he is committed and he is with me because he wants to improve things. He didn't really engage in any sustained way with IC and does not want MC (we had a bad experience with MC earlier in our situation and I think both of us very reluctant to repeat that. He has apologised, though I don't sense remorse, more of a wish to leave the past in the past and not be reminded of it, and a sense that I don't fully understand or empathise with his reasons for his behaviour. We have made an agreement not to bring up the past, and both of us aren't that great at sticking to that agreement.
2. First and foremost, in order for piecing to happen, both partners must be willing and (at least somewhat) ready to work hard at the R. Both partners, the LBS and the WAS/WS, must commit to making the M work, must be willing to look at their own mistakes, and both must be willing to make changes, on themselves and for the M. I say "somewhat ready" because there are varying degrees of self-growth that has happened during the sitch and often the WAS/WS hasn't started that process.
I would say that I never quite got to that stage of all in 100% commitment: I was too guarded, too angry, too resentful, and too invested in being the victim and injured party. And I think because he felt so blamed and I was clearly still so hurt, he was afraid of being my emotional punch bag for the rest of his life, so he was guarded too. This is something that never quite happened 100%. I get the sense we've both had one toe in the water, constantly eyeing the other for signs of backsliding and danger. There's not a lot of trust on either side right now, though it is, day to day, much much better than it was. I do see some important changes in his actions, though there is regular lapses on his side (and mine) on the important factors.
3. I think it's also important for both partners to be humble and accept that despite doing all of the hard work, there is still a chance that they may not get the outcome they hoped for. You must commit to doing the work with this understanding in mind. Both partners must accept that they other could choose to back out at any moment and nothing is guaranteed.
I think this is a real problem for us. I know I hold myself back because I don't want to be hurt again - I never want to be as vulnerable and 'in love' as I was. I think he's probably doing some version of the same thing. I think we both assume failure and difficulty, rather than a happy ending. Part of me just wants to be able to make the leap towards him, but I have been unable to do that AND be sufficiently detached and boundaried to take care of myself and my own needs in adult ways.
4. The SLOWER you move in piecing, the better. The process cannot be rushed or forced, and in doing so you will begin to move backwards in your progress and may cause additional harm. In every piecer that I have read here, the poster says in hindsight that they moved to quickly. I would say the same for my sitch even though I made an effort not to.
Yep. We moved far too quickly from initial R talks to him moving back in. And it happened because I was afraid if I put the brakes on he's change his mind. We are where we are but I can back up this point from personal experience - slower and more boundaried would have been better.
5. The DB rules (and Sandi's rules) no longer apply when piecing happens. To be successful, there needs to be open and honest communication, you will need to initiate contact, share your process with your S, and the walls should start to come down. On the flip side, DB is a way of life now and the healthy attachments, 180s, and GAL should be adopted as a way of life moving forward.
I have been very bad at this. I keep up my GAL as best as I can. My 180s are generally good but not perfect and fall out of my view when I concentrate on his 180s (or lack of them). I don't think my walls have come down and I know his haven't. We seem to be stuck here.
6. The less personal growth (detachment, 180s, GAL) that has been done during the separation, the slower the piecing should happen, because ideally this work should have been completed beforehand. While the LBS that was reading/posting here has often started this journey, and the WAS/WS has usually not, there is still an uneven surge of emotions/anger that make this very difficult to continue simultaneously. It must be continued so you do not give all of your energy to piecing. It is too emotionally taxing.
I think we both did some personal growth during our S. Me more than him. I have continued but at a slower pace than while he was away. I am not sure about him. I don't think I know his heart well enough to comment on that. I can see that he's changed some actions, and that he struggles with changing others. I know we both still carry anger and resentment about the wounds of the past and are apt to look through those lenses at the present, which makes things very difficult.
7. It is completely normal to feel tremendous relief when your S comes back. You have been held under water and then let up for air. This feeling will subside in a matter of weeks or months, as your new reality sets in.
Yes. It has been like this. I looked forward to a new romantic marriage. There was a very short honeymoon period followed by a few arguments, then this extended coldness and caution, punctuated by poor behaviour from him and massive withdrawal from me.
8. The LBS cannot continue to hold the mistakes over the head of the WAS/WS and/or punish them. The LBS cannot continue to hold the mistakes over the head of the WAS/WS and/or punish them. The LBS cannot continue to hold the mistakes over the head of the WAS/WS and/or punish them.
I don't think I punish, but I do think I would not need so much reassurance that I was loved and desired, and feel so sore about the lack of that, if I had truly forgiven and got over the mistakes of the past.
9. The WAS/WS cannot apologize enough times for the hurt their actions have caused! For the first year of piecing, my H said he was sorry once, twice or ten times in a day. He still does apologize when things come up.
We are a year into piecing and H has been very clear, for several months now, that he isn't going to apologise or talk about the past any longer. I do understand that. I feel the same for my part in our past, though we both lapse in this area when we're in an argument.
10. It is very important during piecing that the couple have support from a third party and this should come in the form of MC. The MC should be experienced with reconciliation, betrayal and have a pro-M belief system. This can be expensive, yes, but probably nothing compared to the cost of D!
We are not in MC. I think we're both very afraid of that, actually. It's part of the general climate of careful silence that has crept into this phase of our marriage. I would be willing to do something solution focussed. I have not asked H about this, but I suspect that he would not. I believe he considers MC to be a place where I trap him in a room with a professional and wail and rant about his flaws, as that is exactly how I behaved when I forced him into MC in the aftermath of his EA.
11. Triggers are going to come from every angle and at times you least aspect them. The dull ache of piecing could be interrupted by the sharp stab of a reminder of your post BD days, and this PTSD could mentally throw you back in time. The pain and fear is indescribable. It is important to hold the belief that like any other crisis in your life, they will lessen in time and eventually disappear. Please believe this.
I no longer feel triggered. I do have that constant dull ache though. It's very sad if I think about it, and so I avoid thinking about it with GAL.
12. The LBS will think about giving up, leaving, and walking away. You may think about it often or occasionally and you may even act upon it. Just remind yourself that time is on your side and there is never a need to make a decision hastily. Do not make decisions about anything when emotions are high. In fact, you shouldn't act on emotions in general or express them all to your S. Decisions will now be made with your mind and not your heart. Your heart will continue to change, but you have made the decision to try and make this work. Give it another 6 months or couple years, you have come too far to give up now.
Yep - I feel this often. I don't think I've ever been 'all in' to this piecing, and I think my hesitation has had an effect on my H. I often feel like leaving, and I could, pretty easily, though I have not yet. I am hanging in there.
13. PATIENCE.
14. TIME.
15. Then more patience and more time.
Yes. I have this horrible feeling: when do I get to stop WORKING on my marriage and just enjoy it? I don't have an answer to that. I do enjoy most other parts of my life though, which helps. My marriage feels more like a difficult and unrewarding task than a sanctuary right now.
16. You are both juggling several things and there is no perfect way to do that. Some moments you are discussing painful topics and working through the devastation. Other times you are making sense of what was wrong with the M before and how you ended up here. You still need to take breaks from that and build a new M together! There must be days when you just do something fun and don't discuss the past.
We really have a lack of fun. I don't think we have too many R talks either. There's not much in the way of humour or intimacy. I don't really want to have more R talks or analysis: I do think we each have a fairly good understanding of what went wrong, why it happened, and what needs to change. Despite all I say about my husband's flaws, I do think we're in basic agreement about what happens when things go wrong between us, and what our contributions to this dynamic are. Fun is hard to come by when we're both so guarded and on the lookout for hurt.
17. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves .... That is what they say. As we hold on to hard feelings we cannot move forward and it behooves us to forgive others. Most people need to have forgiveness for a successful R to happen, however how each person reaches that point is very individual and personal. I am still working on my forgiveness and it's been several years.
I definitely need more time on this. I still feel quite shocked at how my husband behaved - how frightening and traumatic it was to see him gone, and replaced by this entirely other person. A person I really hated. I still see glimpses of that other man - the nasty one - more often than I'd like - and that's what's keeping me at a distance from him.
18. Only surround yourselves with people that support your decision to R. Keep seeing your MC, your own C, read books, take walks, and do whatever you can to practice extreme self care. If anything or anyone derails you from your progress, stick it in a box to the left.
I am good at this. I have good friends. I have a faith community. I have GAL. I've done my best to keep this up during lockdown.
19. Remind yourselves that things will get easier and become more clear in time. The first few months, and possibly years, are so emotionally charged, and there are going to be set backs. It is important to accept that the path will not be linear. This does not mean that you have to quit or give up.
I need to keep this in mind. A lot of our conflict is about parenting of Eldest. He is challenging, and we may never agree, but we will also not be parents of a stroppy teenager forever.
20. Compromise is important in any M. However, neither person has to make sacrifices. If the LBS needs something, for example complete transparency, passwords, frequent reassurance, then they should say very clearly what that is. The same goes for the WAS/WS. Tell your partner what you need and what you want. In time they can either provide those things or they can't. But give them the time.
At the moment my needs for love and intimacy and safety are not met. My needs for faithfulness, transparency, financial reliability, equality in the domestic sphere and support with my career in practical terms are met. That isn't insignificant, I know, though I tend to concentrate on the coldness and forget all the other stuff, which matters too.
Hi Alison,
This is great. I feel like it should be a prescribed step on the piecing thread-- and maybe something to do regularly, just to check and see if there has been any progress in certain areas?
As I was reading through this all sorts of ideas popped into my head but I am going to keep them to myself, for now. What struck me as I read this, and having followed you for awhile now is this-- I think there are a number of things you *could* do, if you wanted, to take steps towards addressing some of the areas where you aren't feeling 100% with your H, to potentially draw him out, etc. But... do you want to? It seems to me that one thing this all takes for granted is that your S is someone you want to stay married to, and I'm not at all sure that is the case for you. Shirley Glass talks about giving up on your M right after BD being like trying to sell your house after a flood without repairing any of the damage. Spend the time and effort to fix what can be fixed and then decide if you still want to sell. I guess the question is how much fixing do you have to do before you decide it is better to cut ties than keep going?
I feel like I know the not-so-good parts about your H, and when he helps around the house/ does acts of service/ etc. What are the great parts about him? Why did you fall in love with him in the first place? Is that H still there?
I feel like the time and patience thing is huge, really huge. You can take the time you need to decide what you want to do. At the same time, I worry that going along with the same dynamics without any changes between you two might just mean that the resentment on both your parts gets more calcified. Is that a valid concern?
I'd like to hear your suggestions, May - I really would. I feel okay at the moment - able to protect myself, make my life as fulfilling as possible, and accept the reality that I don't have the marriage I wanted or hoped for and that is partly because of who my H is and how he treats me, and partly because of what I myself am willing to do or not do. I am not sure if I can or want to change that right now - but I would like to hear your insight on this.
OK, I will post a bit now and try to post more later. I was trying to think of ways to draw him out of his patterns and place of fear, without pressure. Like maybe starting off doing totally silly and ridiculous things together with the kids, as a family... for instance do you have the game PieFace in the UK? It is so silly and people get whip cream in their faces but everyone cracks up like crazy. We've been playing this game called Heads Up (iPhone app) which is like a guessing/charades game and is also fun and hilarious. I feel like just setting up a way for you guys to relax and laugh together as a family would be good. Then maybe progress into things with the two of you, like watching a standup comedian once the kids to go bed, or something. From reading your old threads I feel like a date night might be too much pressure for your H, right away, but eventually date nights and even a vacation just the two of you feels like it could be really helpful.
I had more thoughts, will write more later.
Just saying hello and hoping you are ok, Alison, you seem to be in some kind of limbo again which is fine. I second may's thoughts actually. H and I did a lot of fun things for a while after we left, and it did help to enjoy things together and he did soften towards me a lot as a result. I don't know why he couldn't continue that softening and the journey back to me, but I think he was just too badly damaged to be able to have a R with me. I feel like I did everything I could from my end, which brings me a lot of peace as well as acceptance. Not sure if that's helpful to you but I hope you are enjoying life xxx
Thanks May and Dilly.
I think you're right about the fun and humour. Life is not much fun right now. So much about this lockdown period - working mainly from home, doing all the domestic work and most of the childcare, H being away pretty much all of the time and when he is around, being tired and absent and irritable, is reminding me of the time when we were S and those were pretty much my circumstances. That isn't how it is now - he is here, he hasn't wavered really on being committed to our marriage (unless you count that time he claimed he'd contacted his solicitor, which was so obviously a lie I didn't take it seriously even at the time) and he's tired because he's working constant overtime and is on call for at least half of his off-duty hours each week. Most of the GAL stuff for me has been moved to online, which makes it feel not that much different from work, and even now things are opening up a bit now, there's so much uncertainty and still so much missing from our daily lives that I have to admit I am feeling quite depressed a lot of the time. I am struggling to be motivated. This isn't really anything to do with my marriage - this is being home alone too much, and the relentless grind of a long period of home-school and summer holidays. I am lacking the motivation to get out and see my friends - I could do that more than I do, but I just seem to feel dull and tired a lot of the time. I think H is suffering similarly - his work has really been incredibly difficult. I know he worked so so so so hard to get where he is now (the massive project he was working on pretty much exclusively during our separation has finally come to fruition, and placed him directly in the firing line for really demanding front-line covid related work) and he's not taking much pleasure in it either. We seem to function - the dishes are done, the kids are doing their school work, the laundry is done, I am doing my work and we get out in the fresh air every day. But apart from that, there's not much in the way of pleasure for anyone. I don't want to be defeatist and I know there's more I could do to help my own mood and day to day existence, and this has nothing to do with H and isn't his responsibility. I am just really really exhausted. It's been a very difficult couple of years.
Just journalling.
I am struggling today.
I was crying last night, in the middle of the night. H woke up and asked me what was the matter. I ended up telling him how sad it made me that he was so cold, distant, unaffectionate, focussed on practical things but never really interested in spending time with me, talking with me about anything other than the house and kids, never interested in initiating sex. I should have just kept my thoughts to myself - he wasn't mean or cruel or abusive, but he did just make it all about him, and how criticised he felt. I did try to emphasise I wasn't asking him for anything, wasn't criticising him, wasn't blaming him, but that I was unhappy and I was telling him the reason why I was unhappy. But it didn't make any difference and even at the time I didn't think that it would. It didn't really spark any care or empathy from him - he didn't touch me or comfort me or speak gently with me. I just got the usual list of reasons why it isn't his fault, or why what I want is unreasonable.
I know that when I am unhappy he feels criticised. I make myself happy and meet my own needs in every single area of my life. But there's a gap for a lover and a husband in my life that is not unreasonable, and is not possible for me to fill in with friends, GAL and self care. I am not sure how to communicate that to him so we can actually talk about it, rather than us have to talk about how he feels criticised and how it isn't his fault. I understand why me telling him that how he is in this relationship does not make me feel loved, and when I feel unloved I begin to question what the point of him coming back actually was. I asked him why he wanted to come back and he said 'to work on things' and that's it. Nothing about love, or missing me, or wanting me, or wanting our future, or anything. I asked him what he wanted to work on and he said he wasn't going to be baited into a conversation where he had to pander to my needs.
I feel so alone in my marriage. I didn't say this to him, but the facts are, I earn most of the money, do most of the housework and childcare, and exist emotionally separately from him, there's no sex life unless I initiate it and most of the time the sex we do have is not pleasing for him and he isn't willing to tell me or show me what he needs to make it more pleasing for him. He will not speak about it. I don't really know what the point of him in my house actually is. I feel quite sure I could function well and be happy alone. I would be lonely for a husband but I am lonely for a husband now.
I guess it has been easier to be angry about this than sad, or to blame him or myself than sad. But today I am just sad about it. He has no interest in me or a shared life in any real way and at the moment I need to work on accepting that, and working out why I am tolerating it.
Alison ~
I confess I haven't followed your situation much lately, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I jumped in and read your last few posts.
First, I'm sorry to hear you are struggling and feeling sad. But I'd like to offer an alternative interpretation and see what you think. I could be way off-base, I hope you don't take offense.
You and your H have not established good communication. At some point, if and when you both are invested in working on the MR and piecing, you would benefit greatly from a really good MC to work on this.
H woke up and asked me what was the matter. I ended up telling him how sad it made me that he was so cold, distant, unaffectionate, focussed on practical things but never really interested in spending time with me, talking with me about anything other than the house and kids, never interested in initiating sex.
2x4: You initiated a middle-of-the-night R talk. When your H asked "what is the matter?" he did not mean "tell me everything that bothers you about us and me".
He wasn't mean or cruel or abusive, but he did just make it all about him, and how criticised he felt. I did try to emphasise I wasn't asking him for anything, wasn't criticising him, wasn't blaming him, but that I was unhappy and I was telling him the reason why I was unhappy. But it didn't make any difference and even at the time I didn't think that it would. It didn't really spark any care or empathy from him - he didn't touch me or comfort me or speak gently with me. I just got the usual list of reasons why it isn't his fault, or why what I want is unreasonable.
It doesn't matter what your intent was. He experienced it as criticism. Maybe your MR won't work out. Or maybe you just need a different method of communicating. This method doesn't work.
Back when my MR was better, my W would periodically open up in this way. I would start off with open ears and an open heart. But soon I would be hearing 4 or 5 things all at once that were problems. Men tend to be problem-solvers and not empathizers. It was overwhelming. What I heard was "here is a huge list of problems, and not only are they problems, but rather than solve the problems I just want you to hear me talk about them." Eventually it did just feel like criticism. I had no clue what her "request" was. I would often feel stunned into silence and the last thing I thought was "she is asking for warmth". So I'm sure I came across as a passive, cold listener when my real intent was to try to figure out how to work through our issues. It was frustrating for me, and I'm sure it was frustrating for her.
He has no interest in me or a shared life in any real way and at the moment I need to work on accepting that, and working out why I am tolerating it.
Mind-reading. You could be right, you could be wrong.
Unchien,
thank you for this. I do see precisely what you mean. I usually avoid R talk and lie to him constantly about my real feelings as DB recommends we do (I have the bright smile and 'I'm fine!' totally perfected) but in that moment there was no hiding that I was crying and the usual 'I'm fine' wasn't going to cut it. I feel I have a choice between hiding how I feel or being honest and in that moment I was honest and it was the wrong choice.
Though lying to him all the time and pretending that this is a marriage that works for me is a kind of communication that isn't working either. I am happy in my work, with my friends, as a mother and when I am alone. I am miserably unhappy in my marriage as my basic needs for love and affection and closeness are not met. I can most definitely pick my time in communicating the extent of that, but other that keep up DBing and pretend that all is well (which my H appears to be happy with - he may or may not be, I don't know) I am not sure what my options are. We have been 'piecing' for a year, and no progress is being made, and it is because we aren't communicating at all. I was, in that moment, trying to be honest.
Of course he felt criticised. He's a pretty crappy husband to me. Why is him not feeling criticised more important than my being able to be honest about how it is for me to live with him? I am past using DB principles to treat him like a frightened dog I'm trying to lure back into my house. He's here, he's choosing to be here, he has plenty of other options and I don't stand between him and the door. But while he is here, I want openness and equality and that means that I get to tell him I am unhappy and get some of that validation I've been spoon-feeding him for months and months and months. Doesn't it?
I think this is too broken, really. And I do think he has tried. But even when he does try, it is so wooden and robotic and cold that I don't feel any desire, passion, warmth, affection, love or even - to be honest - friendly interest - in me. Never. So when he makes these practised gestures and half-hearted attempts, I can feel the desperate effort there is at play, and how much he'd rather be somewhere else. I don't trust that he does actually love me, I don't think he knows how to or wants to show love in a way that makes sense to me. Except then I remember how totally easy he found it to be warm and kind and interested in his EA woman. This isn't a man who does not know how to court or be warm and affectionate and empathic. He has those skills. I saw that very clearly.
Alison ~
But while he is here, I want openness and equality and that means that I get to tell him I am unhappy and get some of that validation I've been spoon-feeding him for months and months and months. Doesn't it?
DB would say no, but I get it. Functional, healthy relationships do rely on partners validating each other.
I can't pretend to know how to piece and how frustrating this must be for you. When I have strong feelings I try to step away and do something for myself. Eventually the feelings calm down and I achieve some clarity of mind, pointing me towards what I should do.
Keep venting here if you need =)
Oh Alison, your post made me feel so sad.
You strike me as so wise, nurturing and empathetic. You deserve so much more than your marriage is offering you right now. SO much more.
Reading your words, it feels like you are at an inflection point: do you continue the same trajectory waiting for H to move towards you and lean into the M? Or do you move towards a different version of your life, one where you no longer are standing for your M?
It doesn't sound like he is capable of changing right now. What if he is never capable of changing?
A year is a long time. But I have read threads where people have waited 3-4 years for their partner to come around. Personally, I don't believe I have that sort of patience. I want too much out of life. How about you? Where does your patience run out? Are you there yet?
I also believe that just because one makes a decision to end the M, it doesn't mean that the R is over forever. You could end your current M and wind up meeting the best, most loving incredible partner in the world (and wonder what took you so long to leave your loveless M!). You could end your current M and you and H could wind up back together in a true M 2.0. I don't believe that someone like you will be single the rest of her life. You have too much to offer.
Please keep posting, we are here for you.
(((Alison)))
(((Alison)))
It seems to me like communication is a really big issue for the two of you— for him, really, both in listening and in sharing his own feelings. At some point, he is going to have to make a commitment to working on those skills for you two to move forward. He doesn’t seem to either understand or maybe want to understand what he needs to do in order to improve your M and, frankly, keep you.
I know you hated MC but I have to say I agree with unchien— there needs to be some mechanism to learn those communication skills and it isn’t going to happen on its own. Are there other possibilities? Reading a book together or something? I think you can do the Gottman weekend online now.
Do you think it would help for you to sit down with him and clearly and calmly say that he needs to commit to working on communication with you or there isn’t much of a point any more?
Also... my romantic heart sees an alternate scenario, where he does love and cherish you but has no idea how to express it to you and is so trapped in his own head and unhappiness that he simply lashes out whenever his emotions are stirred in any way. And if he could learn to understand and deal with his own emotions, and communicate appropriately about them to you, and listen openly and fully to you... things could be different. But he would have to come to making those changes.
xx M
thanks friends.
When I read your posts, I notice how resistant I am to some of your suggestions. I don't know if it is that I am generally quite down at the moment and that is colouring the way I see things (and I am - I am very tired and low and just DONE with having to convince the kids to do something other than sit in front of their screens 24/7 as well as try to keep up with my own work and the house stuff) or if I am just disconnected from my marriage.
I don't WANT to convince him to go to MC, then have to sit and listen to him struggle to learn to make an empathic response, validate, show care and consideration, learn my love language. I did those things on my own - not perfectly, but I did - because I wanted to. He doesn't want to. And it isn't that he doesn't know how. He knew perfectly well how to do it when he was trying to seduce a 25 year old. He was able to give complements, show interest, say affectionate and romantic things, find time in his schedule, remember her special dates and show concern for her troubles, research and buy little and thoughtful gifts, flirt, make jokes, have fun and be happy. He KNOWS how to do these things and he can find the energy and will to do it. He just doesn't care to with me, and I don't care to sit there while a therapist either gets to the bottom of why he doesn't want to / is afraid to / can't be bothered to. I really don't want to.
I also, really, don't want to sit and watch films with him, or play children's games with him, or listen to him bang on about how he's much better than anyone else he works with, or make catty remarks about whoever he works with, or the news, or anything else he wants to complain about. I guess I want him to be the type of person I'd enjoy spending time with, but he's really not. I have to be honest and say most of the time I don't like him at all. I am not forgiving. I am angry at him for not being for me what he was for his EA woman. It was short lived, and it was two years ago now - but seeing that glimpse of him in that relationship and seeing that he hasn't been that man in this relationship for a very long time, and still isn't willing to be, makes me furious. I think H thinks I am still angry about the EA and I am not. I get why it happened and I do believe it isn't happening now. But it may as well be - the man I wanted and the man I married never came back to me.
I have said we need to work our communication. I have asked him what he needs from me. All he says is peace, and space, and time on his own. it's a constant and regular refrain. I don't really bother him that much any more. And the more I sit here, giving him space and waiting for him to come to me, the more my resentment and anger builds, and of course he can feel it - I don't think I express it, but we've known each other a long time and the man isn't an idiot.
I am very very tired. This has been an extremely difficult couple of years, and while i have learned a lot and grown a lot, I don't think I will ever be the kind of person that is happy in the kind of marriage my H wants and the kind of relationship he is able to offer. I remember feeling this type of upset and hurt and resentment years ago, and my anger getting so out of control it drove him away. I won't be that person again, but I also won't STFU and validate and GAL for the rest of my life in another room so he can be happy and I can pretend to be happy as that what suits him best.
Hi Alison,
Just to say... if you don't want to be married to him anymore, you don't have to be. You've been at this a long time and done a lot of work on your side and he has not shown the capacity to do similar work. I think if you decide you want to keep at it, for whatever reasons, the communication thing is probably essential. But people only change if they have desire and motivation and the strength to do so... so far your H hasn't shown that. I'm not sure that he knows, exactly, what it is he would need to do-- I guess that has been my take on the situation, that he's a little clueless and trapped in his own miseries and unable to take a step back and see how his behavior affects you, number one, and then understand (number two) what changes he'd have to make to be a better partner to you. I don't know that he doesn't want that. But I would guess he has no idea how to do it or why. And maybe it is too much work for you to try to get that across to him with no guarantee he will be able to understand or make the necessary changes.
Tiny 2x4 on the EA... I think you need (if this is the way you want to go) to let go of the fact that he had the ability to pursue his EAP and show her affection, or what not. That was a total fantasy and he behaved accordingly. You are real life and it is a completely different animal. I don't think you can or should compare his behaviors during the EA to his EAP to how he engages with you. Yes, it does show it is *possible* for him to act like that... but in a total fantasy world. Maybe he can bring that part of himself to your M, eventually, with work... and maybe that is what is both making you frustrated and keeping you there? Can you tell him you want that side of him? Do you want to?
In the long term, though, what you are describing... STFUing and finding GAL outside of your M is not what you want or deserve. And you shouldn't feel badly if you decide you've had enough and it is time to give yourself the opportunity to find someone with whom you can have a R without so much work.
HUGS and thinking of you. xoxo
Oh Alison. I wish I had wise words for you. I know how much work you've put into this and you sound defeated and oh so very very tired.
I don't know if it is that I am generally quite down at the moment and that is colouring the way I see things (and I am - I am very tired and low and just DONE with having to convince the kids to do something other than sit in front of their screens 24/7 as well as try to keep up with my own work and the house stuff) or if I am just disconnected from my marriage.
When I read the phrase "colouring the way I see things" I think back to the dark cloud that hung over my H. The way he saw our life, and in particular my part in it, through a grey filter.
I am going to offer an alternative. Things are opening up again. Why don't you go somewhere on your own. Away from the triggers, the kids in front of their screens, the house stuff, and yes, even your H. One of the advantages of this 'new way of working' is that we can now work from home from anywhere. So book a week somewhere. St Ives or a cottage in Cornwall, If that's too long, book a weekend in centerparcs. Go for bike rides, have some treatments, read books (not about relationships - just some utter rubbish pulp fiction). Leave your life behind you for a few days. Don't overthink. To be honest those thoughts will come anyway, but taken out of the context of home, you'll have the space you need to process.
Hi Alison -
I am so sorry that you are struggling. You've been through a whole lot these last few years. Sending you positive thoughts -
From what I'm reading in your posts, I don't think he's quite done "baking" yet. I only say this because I see it in my W as well. Expecting anything out of them is a waste of time - they are simply not capable of handling normal adult interactions at this time. They are stuck - unable to move forward - and they keep reverting to the same behaviors from before.
It is you who decides how this goes. It's your choice - if you're willing to keep standing or not.
I wish I had more concrete answers for you, but I dont. I'm in the same place - except W never left home and it's ow been nearly 2 years since the first BD. And I see that she's still not there - it's only just beginning to shift.
If you stand, or if you go - remember to be kind to yourself. You've gone above and beyond here. Don't forget that.
Take care
How are you doing, Alison? Thinking of you.
Just checking in on you, I hope things have improved a bit now things have opened up a bit more most places. This has been one hard year even without marriage issues! I hope you are taking care of yourself and not beating yourself up about your kids or anything else. My teens are mostly nocturnal right now, they spend all their time on screens, they don't eat very well. And they are as happy as anything! Ds1 is an adult so I won't tell him what to do, ds2 I take to tennis lessons regularly and cut up fruit for him sometimes and nag him to look after his braces. Our household is very peaceful and content this summer, I figure it has been a tough time for everyone since March and if watching Jeopardy is the most intellectual pursuit the kids are doing then that's just fine
Hi Alison, I too am thinking of you and hope that you have been on some wonderful walks with the kids and/or pup this past week. (((Alison)))
Hello everyone.
It's been a while since I was here. I stepped away for a while - I decided that micro-analysing every little spat I had with H, every aspect of his behaviour and what I was assuming was behind it was about as much of a waste of time as endlessly circling here and reporting my own anger, and unforgiveness and resentment. I decided instead to just drop the rope on my marriage and concentrate on myself, my boundaries and practicing acceptance for my current situation. I wasn't ready to make the move towards divorce, though knowing I could and it was practically possible and not-scary for me was a good thing to do. So I just let it all be for a while.
Things have improved for me. I am still working at home, and extremely busy at the moment, and here in the UK we are entering a second wave. I live in one of the parts of the UK that is under reasonably strict pre-lockdown conditions - there's no mixing with other households. We can still get out, and the shops are open, but socialising in person with friends is over. I am past my quiet time at work and into my very busy time, and it is going to get much busier over the next few weeks, and pretty unpredictably depending on what happens with lockdown (I work in HE). But I am in better spirits, and the kids are happier now they are back at school - that's improved things a lot in our household. There's still more work to do on me looking after myself - I tend to vanish into my work as a kind of escape mechanism when I am feeling unhappy, and that isn't healthy. And I do need to find that happiness inside, rather than from my H, my kids or solely from my work. So that's a work in progress.
H is being much kinder and more attentive than he has been in a long time. I actually think he's quite exhausted and depressed now. He's in medicine, as I've said, and while there was a bit of a lull over the summer, he and his colleagues are preparing for pretty awful working hours and conditions as the winter sets in. There have been changes though - he's told me he feels depressed (rather than just letting me work it out through his grumpy snapping and nasty anger - I've not seen much of that) and he seems to be leaning towards me for support and comfort more. That is extremely new. He doesn't want anything from me that I am not prepared to give - just for me to sleep in the MB and go to bed at the same time as him (which I will do so long as he hasn't been heavily drinking) - and that's nice. Just the sense that he is turning towards his wife and family for comfort rather than blaming me / us for the pressures of his work is a massive difference. His depression means that he sleeps a lot, so other than him working or sleeping I haven't seen a lot of him. But he is making efforts in the house and with the kids and being kind and more open about what he needs, which is good.
I think the change for me is that I don't feel as afraid of him when he's obviously worn out and exhausted and depressed as I used to. I think whenever he felt like that, I'd get very brittle and tense and anxious, because the moments when he'd start to take his anger out on me felt inevitable. I guess me pulling away at those moments probably helped trigger his angry behaviour (though he's responsible for that). I also feel okay about being clear with him when I am not available for comforting or listening or when he's being irritable in a way that I'm not willing to overlook. I do want to support him, but i'm not his therapist or his mother and I need to be able to safely set a boundary with him for my own self preservation without him responding angrily. We've had that happen a few times now and it has worked well.
He has also had some working patterns rearranged, and he came to tell me he'd been put on a couple of shifts with EA woman. I'd never have known or had the ability to find this out without him telling me, and he told me he was worried about telling me in case he sparked an argument, but he didn't want there to be any secrets. His honesty there when there was no need for it other than his own motivation and conscience counted for a lot for me. I asked him how he felt being around her, and he said slightly embarrassed and awkward, and he'd prefer to work elsewhere, but they are all so busy it's not like they're having lots of conversation, and they don't have friends in common. I didn't really feel much about it - glad that he didn't want to have a secret from me, but no urge to look at his phone or question him and no difficult feelings. She just doesn't really matter to me much anymore - I'm more interested in his behaviour and looking for consistent honesty and openness from him, rather than wanting to snoop on him.
I still have moments of being very sad that the marriage that we used to have is over. It was a terrible marriage, so that doesn't quite make sense - and it is better now, though there isn't the closeness that there was in the early days. I think we're both still very cautious with each other, though most of the unpleasant behaviours from him seems to have died down over the last few weeks. We don't really have R talks, but we do talk about the future - perhaps moving to a larger house (esp. if I am working from home long term, and the possibility that the kids will be at home with us and perhaps home schooled again at some point in the future.) It's early days, but it has also been a long time since I imagined a future with him.
So that is where I am. I am looking forward to catching up with you all!
Hi Alison,
This all sounds so good, to me. Miles better than it did a couple of months ago. I'm sure taking a break from here, from micro-analyzing every negative interaction and bathing in the anger and frustration through posting has helped.
Not to be pushy, but wondering if you'd thought about doing that piecing inventory again, and seeing where you are? What do you think has made the change in your H? How are he and your eldest getting along?
Thanks for updating us-- I think of you often.
xx May
That's a really good idea, May. I think I will - though not today. Work is CRAZY at the moment and the covid-related news gets worse every day, which makes planning and strategy (a major part of my role) both extremely important and totally impossible.
I do think one thing has changed: we did, pretty consistently, seem to assume the worst of each other at all times. I think we both felt we had good reason for doing that - he was convinced I was going to get upset and angry and sad and demand soothing or long R talks whenever he set a boundary or did something I didn't like because I had acted like that for a long time, and now and again, still did (my 180s were never perfect, and never will be, given I am human). I assumed that when he was quiet and withdrawn I was only inches away from more of his anger and nastiness - and I also had really good reason to assume those things. But on both sides, they were assumptions and I think both of us were ignoring positive moments and good changes the other had made, and that was causing a lot of despair and frustration on both sides, so more withdrawal, distance, resentment and anger. I think what changed things was space. And I did sort of give up on him being any different, and became totally uninterested in a) changing his behaviour or b) explaining to him how it made me felt and c) exposing myself to it. All of this has happened without much in the way of talking between us. I make sure to express appreciation and gratitude when it is warranted, but I don't go overboard. When I have a boundary, I act it out in as few words as possible. There's little to no pursuing on my part any more, and he has in his own way tip-toed closer, and while I appreciate that, I no longer need it or rely on it.
I think this relates to trust, really. I don't trust my H to be consistently decent towards me - it's too early days for that. But I think this lack of trust isn't a fault in me, just.a sane and rational response to our shared history. There are lots of ways in which he doesn't trust me and I think he'd say the same. My lack of trust resulted in some controlling behaviour and reassurance seeking, which was unhealthy, then some very self-protective behaviour, which meant it was impossible for us to have the closeness that I wanted. But now I just take each moment as it comes and decide if what he is offering is something I want to be close to and engage with, or something I want to step back from. I take those decisions on a moment by moment basis, without trying to control what he is offering, or criticise it, or explain my own decisions. It's like a very slow and deliberate dance. What has changed, I think, is that I trust myself. I am making sane and rational decisions that are powered by curiosity - I want to see if we can find a way to meet each other's needs in a healthy way and be happy, as we once were, but in different ways. The decisions previously were powered either by self protection or point scoring or wanting to use my boundaries to control him. This is different. I think what made it different is that I trust myself. I trust my judgment, I trust my ability to meet most of my own needs, I trust that I am financially independent and capable of divorcing him if I need to. I trust I can make that decision and know when I am there when the time comes. So I don't feel trapped, which means the urge to make him do or not do something or hurry along this process because where I am now isn't tolerable to me has gone away.
Gosh Alison, I'm so glad to hear your update! You sound in a good place and like your H is tiptoeing back towards you and you're allowing that. Him acknowledging his depression is pretty big, men tend to express depression as irritability or anger and try to hide it as much as possible, so it is healthy for him to talk about it.
I'm sorry about your increased covid restrictions, we are in for a long winter I fear. Take care of yourself xxx
I think it is going to be a long winter too, Dilly. I am trying not to dread it, but just take each day as it comes - though I can't really do that perfectly yet and I do feel quite down sometimes.
And yes, H is easier to be around when he's actually just tired and depressed, rather than just irritable and angry and blaming. I can be nearer to that, and offer a bit more comfort and am willing to be kinder, than I am when he's pretending the reason he's such a miserable arse is because I have fictionally not cleaned the crumbs out of the toaster on a schedule he's imagined out of thin air.
There is still one point of difficulty that doesn't seem to be untangling, and that is how things are in the bedroom. He's not a great initiator and most of the time when I initiate (which he says he prefers, and needs me to do to show him I am willing) he turns me down. I do appreciate he is tired and stressed and try to be understanding about that. He doesn't like to be close like that in the mornings as he wants to get up and ready. He prefers not in the evenings as he is tired and needs time alone to unwind. And we are together in the afternoons less than once or twice a month, due to our schedule. I have asked for some compromise in this area, but I also don't want him doing anything he doesn't want to do and doesn't feel enthusiastic about. When he does initiate, I believe he tries to communicate great enthusiasm to reassure me he is actually wanting it and not just doing his duty, but his enthusiasm comes across as impatience - I am trying to be delicate - and I think I should either just accept his advances as they are, even though I need more time and tenderness than is on offer (as it is so rare he is in the mood to initiate) and I am also struggling with feeling resentful - 'I've asked you six times this month and each time you've said no and NOW you happen to be in the mood I have to just jump to it, do I?'. We have been able to talk this through without blame and without it turning into an argument and that is new and positive. But neither of us have any ideas about how to change things here. He can't pretend he wants what he doesn't want, and I can't really enjoy him doing his duty and also feel desired. Perhaps I need to accept that I am not desired in the way I want to be. But that feels like letting go of something that I really hoped we would be able to recover.
So if anyone has any advice for me in this matter then I would appreciate that.
Hi Alison,
I know we've chatted before on this, coming from opposite sides on the SSM situation, and what you've written has been really helpful for me. I have spent a lot of time thinking about both where I was (and I have felt all those things your H is saying he feels, too tired and not ready and I have a million things I need to be doing right now) and how my H must have felt during that time. I know for a fact my H felt some of the resentment you are talking about, both in the moment and long-term.
I think the fact you are able to talk about it without blame or it becoming an argument is really, really positive, I do. I think sex is so wrapped up in identity, especially for men, and the fact that he (who has trouble with this even on easy topics) can actually TALK about it without getting defensive or resentful or angry, blaming you for your bad timing or unsexy clothes or whatever he might come up with-- is really encouraging, from my perspective. I know I really didn't want to talk about it with my H and felt like there was just something wrong with me for not wanting sex, and kept pushing it back to be his fault for not being nicer or getting me in the mood or whatever.
Anyway, have you read Emily Nagoski's book, Come As You Are? It is focused on female desire and sexuality but talks about a new model of desire/arousal (not just the gas pedal but also what triggers the "brakes" for people) as well as the importance of context that apply to men as well as women. I think you'd find it interesting, and if your H was interested in reading it he would too. There are other programs out there (I think Pommy and her H were trying one recently) that all seem to follow a similar trajectory of cutting out sex for awhile, then starting non-sexual touch and moving really slowly to build physical intimacy without the pressure of sex. That could be an issue for him, too-- fear of performance failure that leads him into "impatience," so much attachment to a particular outcome that he is unable to relax and enjoy the process as much as being sure he checks off certain boxes, and maybe it is okay to be less outcome-oriented and just enjoy each other without a particular destination in mind ahead of time.
You might also spend some time thinking about what supports your desire and interest, not just his... when you talk about the resentment and his impatience, that you feel like it is a tradeoff between sex he is willing to engage in and sex you actually enjoy, and that can't be fun. Perhaps there are ways he can show you that he cares about your experience beyond just demonstrating enthusiasm that would help you to feel more desired as well.
As Yail has said to me-- don't write your future, yet. You have both come so, so far. This is just the next thing to untangle.
And finally as an aside, this:
than I am when he's pretending the reason he's such a miserable arse is because I have fictionally not cleaned the crumbs out of the toaster on a schedule he's imagined out of thin air.
had me totally cracking up. My H, in his snit phase earlier this week, ostentatiously cleaned out the toaster in front of me and made a bunch of comments about how "we" need to do better at this. Hahahahaha!
So if anyone has any advice for me in this matter then I would appreciate that.
I come from a position a little more similar to May, and also from the side of being single now. But I can put myself back into my feelings when I was low desire, and hopefully brainstorm a bit.
I do think the fact that my perspective is female is potentially not as helpful in this instance - but still I will try.
I too love Nagoski as May does. For folks who sleep with women I think it's an important read (for anyone else reading this). I haven't read her book - it's on my download list - but I've listened to her speak and want to scream "oh my gosh YES I understand you" through the screen.
When I was more low drive and less experimental feeling with XW we had times we agreed upon to just be together. Shut the bedroom door, get naked under the covers to increase intimacy, and just drink a glass of wine or watch a tv show on the iPad or chat. Being tired is okay here - falling asleep is okay - because it's a time to shut off all the exterior pressures and intentionally *not* have sex but do it together. Sometimes we broke the rule - but the idea was to truly not expect it. I do think this helped with easing the tension in the "we are not having enough sex" dialogue. It was really just a tension release time. Very in line with what May said.
Now that I've been single nearly two years my sex drive is...in overdrive. I wonder about who that woman was that wasn't interested, because it doesn't feel like the authentic me. But also now in my solo time I have taken the time to really ponder my sexuality and wants vs needs, or likes vs dislikes. I think I've learned a lot, and think I will continue to learn when partnered again some time. And one theory is that perhaps I wasn't having enough of the type of sex I wanted. What we had was fantastic - but it was also 10 years on. I didn't have the confidence or ideas or understanding that I should be changing it. XW tried to guide me into discussion but I was drawing blanks on ideas that sounded interesting. Do you think your H wants or needs something that he can't even imagine or articulate?
Only now that I'm solo do I find more things intriguing (lots of reading). And perhaps it is because I can separate the sex act from the person since I don't have a real person next to me. There is the madonna vs whore complex where women are seen as one or the other. Perhaps I struggled to see my own W as anything but a loving person, and due to that I was missing out on parts of a sex life that are actually quite important. I wonder as one possibility if your H has any of these struggles. I found for me that once things got going they could get real good - but the idea of starting from a place of zero heat - to suggest something out of the ordinary would have felt very, very weird.
Anyway, those are my musings. I suspect your H is in a very deep sexual rut, and that's very difficult to come out of, so I'm not sure that any of this will be helpful. He has to value sex first before he can move forward, and I don't think that actually has anything to do with you at all - but more a relationship with his body and how he sees himself. That's how it was for me - I didn't know I was a sexual being. I just thought sex happened in my life somehow, and that I wasn't in charge.
Stay well.
Thanks friends. It is nice to see you again here Yail!
I have just ordered Come As You Are. So that's a good start. And yes, it is good that H and I have managed to have conversations about this - not many, and not often - but when it has happened I feel that there's not so much of the excuses and evasiveness and blame as there is a joint effort to understand what the tangle is. I feel sure it is linked to his depression, and is also a confidence issue - he is not a selfish man in bed, but so much of what he does is about self-reassurance that I either get bored, or feel unnecessary to the proceedings or am concentrating so much on trying to hide or let go of anger and resentment that not a lot is happening for me. I have asked him if there is anything specific he would like me to do or try, and when he gives me suggestions I will do them, but they seem to have very little effect on his enjoyment. I don't feel confident that there's anything I do that he likes or desires. And when I ask him for things, he will do them, but in such a mechanical and wooden way, with no connection or tenderness, that it feels like I've asked him to do the ironing and he's agreed to do it because he knows I usually do it and has run out of respectable excuses for refusing to take his share of the work. I've tried to find a way to tell him that is how it feels, and he says he was doing what I asked, I'm never happy, etc etc. I guess for me I have isolated the fact that it isn't really about the specific act or technique - it isn't really a problem in that area - but about him finding a way to communicate some love and desire and tenderness and enthusiasm in a way that I can feel. I don't know if it is that he doesn't feel those things or can't communicate them. We aren't quite at the point where he will take any request I make as criticism and break off proceedings to angrily defend himself - that was such a massive turn off it literally took me a YEAR to have any kind of desire for him after that - but I am afraid of being at that point.
And I think my part in things is in the anger and resentment. He knows I am frustrated, feel unloved in this way, feel angry about it, feel frustrated at his lack of effort, and disappointed when he does make an effort because it so clearly is... an effort. He knows I feel trapped in a pretty sexless relationship and resentful that choosing him means choosing near celibacy, and there's a bit of me furious about that. I have said to him that if he isn't interested in or capable of a normal sex life, then it is his responsibility to find other ways to show me love and desire - if he doesn't have sex-drive then he could have spending-time-together drive or words-of-affirmation drive but I am sure me being angry and resentful is also a massive turn off for him. And I am not sure how not to be, or how to suppress that and fake being happy when he does make a half-hearted, mechanical move on me. When he does, to be honest I feel like rolling my eyes and screaming at him. I don't act that way, I really don't, but just as I can 'see' him doing his duty in a cold-hearted way, I am sure he can see me gritting my teeth and going along with stuff that makes me feel abandoned and furious.
Hi Alison,
That's tough. I am very familiar, at this moment, with the feeling like maybe I'm just settling for something that is not ever going to be good enough. And, maybe, it won't be, for either you or for me. Or maybe it will, either because things get better or we learn to live with it. I'm an eternal optimist so rooting for things will get better, with time, for both of us. I see how far you've come and it is really encouraging.
When I read about your H, and the woodenness and the trying but not putting his heart into it... I have been there. I have so, so been there. And if he is anything like I was... sex simply wasn't important, at all. Like I was confused and annoyed that my H wanted it. I would so much rather have gotten an extra half hour of sleep. With some exceptions, like if we went for a weekend away without the kids, I was just going through the motions because I felt I should. And then on top of that I felt guilty and bad that I didn't want sex, and shuffled between feeling like there was something wrong with me and a kind of indignant defensiveness about why I didn't want to have sex with him, he was rude or didn't help with the kids enough or didn't understand I needed more sleep or thinks he can just roll over and initiate without at least a backrub first.
And this is the thing, Alison. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with my H. yes, he could have handled it better. (like you are handling it.) But in the end, it was about me and how I saw myself. Yail talks about not knowing she was a sexual being, and that is exactly how I felt. I didn't even realize it was a problem.
As Yail says, your H may be in a very deep rut, perhaps connected to his depression, but it very likely has zero to do with you and how he feels about you. (I remember some really romantic thing he said to you, a few months ago, when you went away with the children for a week, something like nobody else in the world was right for him like you were, or something along those lines. It always has warmed my heart towards your H and made me feel he does love you, truly. He has a lot of other issues but I think at the core of it he does love you, dearly.)
You can't rediscover his sexuality for him. He has to do that for himself. I think no amount of communicating and trying to get him to please you by acting like he wants it is going to fix it. I will say for me, rediscovering myself as a sexual being was a huge gift and I'm so glad I got it, even though it probably is only because of my H's A. (Of course, rather frustrating at the moment.) But maybe reading the book will help. If he's open to reading it, I think it could maybe help him a LOT.
the other thing, reading about how frustrating these interactions sound... I might consider just taking a break for a while. Make an agreement of no sex and just take that pressure off. Another thing I felt (and I read about it in several books so I'm not alone in this) is that I started to feel like any physical touch was an invitation or a precursor to sex, which I didn't want, so I started to shy away from his touch. We got to a place (where we still mostly are) where we rarely touch. When we do, it is notable. Of course I don't want that anymorea and physical touch is my H's primary LL, but we aren't yet in a place to address any of that (if we ever will be).
But I just wonder if your H feels some level of pressure and relieving that by banning sex for a bit could help allow him to show you how he cares about you in other ways, without worrying it might lead to sex. ("worrying it might lead to sex" probably sounds strange to anyone who hasn't been the LD partner, but it is real). It could also help you to stop feeling you have to fake being happy when he gins up the energy to make a half-hearted move. Just ban all that $hit for awhile and see if you can connect in other ways.
((Alison))
Thank you May. This brought tears to my eyes. It is extremely difficult to communicate to my H how awful this makes me feel without him feeling criticised and when he feels criticised he's a terrible person to be around - he still reacts in anger, aggressive language, blaming etc.
I find it impossible to understand. He is very clear on not wanting me to have close or intimate friendships with other people. He wants me to be his. So he can put me on a shelf and ignore me. It feels like selfishness and cruelty.
If there was something really really important to him that only I could give him I would want to do that. The thing is, there isn't anything that is really important to him that only I can give him. He can have conversations with his friends, share hobbies with whoever he likes, he prefers to sleep alone, and he's capable of hiring a house keeper and childminder. So a lot of the time I am left wondering what I am actually for. And that makes me very sad too.
I think what he wants and needs most is for me to pretend the way he wants things is fine, because understanding I am very hurt and very angry about this - and have been for years - is too much for him. So yet again it is me who needs to go without something I need - not even sex, but just an acknowledgement of the massive damage this has done to me and our marriage and the opportunity to receive some care and empathy for that - because his feelings and needs have to be more important.
I know processing my anger and resentment are my responsibility, and I know I choose this - I am more than capable of walking away and taking care of myself. I could even have an affair if I wanted to. But I don't want to. And I don't want to walk away either. I just want to be wanted and desired, and he doesn't seem capable of that unless I pretend that not being wanted and desired has been totally fine, has done no damage at all, and hasn't caused me deep wounds. The selfishness of it is staggering and I get angry when I think about it.
Hi Alison,
I know this is so difficult. This is one thing that you can really only get from your H as long as you stay M. I know my H really struggled with this too. All I can say is that I didn't comprehend at all what it meant to him and the damage the constant rejection was doing. Your H is not the most empathetic of individuals... I'm going to guess that he really isn't able to see it. He may hear you and the trying is there, but at a deep, gut level he really doesn't understand why it matters so much. So telling him, getting angry at him, responding with fake enthusiasm or resentment when he does try-- none of that really helps, I'm guessing. He needs to truly want to understand how his behaviors are affecting you, and he needs to decide on his own that he wants to rediscover his own sexuality.
I know his EA is far in the rearview mirror, but I'm sure it doesn't help to know that he was able to act romantically and express desire towards his EAP. But... have you read the Nagowski book yet? It could be the context of the EA is what allowed him to have those feelings and express them, and (again, this needs to be his work, with your support) it isn't really bad news, even if it feels personally hurtful. It may just mean he needs to figure out the context in which he feels open to feeling and expressing desire, and how to integrate that into your M. And yes, I'm sure that the anger and resentment probably doesn't help him want to explore any of that.
Can you 100% just drop the rope on this? Stop initiating and remove all of your expectations of what he should or shouldn't be doing in this arena? if he does initiate, take it for what it is, have fun, don't pick apart if it seemed forced or too fast or whatever-- just experience and enjoy it without the weight of what it *isn't*, and smile and move on. I wonder if that is a 180 you can try. It would also give him the space to act without the weight of knowing what you want or expect from him in this area, and feeling like he isn't measuring up. I also wonder if totally dropping the rope on this would allow him to begin to show you affection in other ways.
I don't know if it would be best to tell him you're doing this explicitly or just do it. I lean towards telling him since you two are partners and piecing. I know my H did this in our R, stopped initiating to "see" how long it would take for me to initiate, and I felt betrayed after the fact that he was testing me like that without my knowledge. Of course, he was using that test as justification for starting an A, so that was pretty f-ed up and a big difference with your own motivations here... but it might be a good idea to just keep everything open on this topic as it is already fairly fraught.
Hope you are doing well. xx M
How are things Alison? Better, I hope. You sounded pretty bitter in that post about being put on a shelf. I felt like that a lot with my H. Like he didn't want me, he just didn't want anyone else to have me either. I hope things have improved since then? I can recommend some podcasts which might be helpful: Foreplay Radio, couples and sex therapy. There is a lot about pursuing distancing dynamics, both sexually and emotionally. It might help to see that these dynamics are present in all relationships. There are also a few episodes on female sexual pursuers which you might find helpful.
Look after yourself xx