I have been reading the forums since Friday and while I see lots of good advice I still feel lost b/c my sitch is quite different from most in that my WW doesn't want a D or even a separation. So not quite sure which advice to take. Let me explain.
Recent history about my sitch.
First I should say one of the main qualities I have always loved about my W is that she has always been one of the most honest and trustworthy people I have ever known. Until now.
My wife and I have been in a SSM for at least a decade if not longer. It's hard to even remember when it was good. She was the LDS and I was the HDS. Due to the SSM we essentially have been emotionally distant for many years as well with most days us just doing our own thing until dinner, then an hour of TV then she goes to bed and I stay up for a couple more hours for more TV.
In Jan, W came to me and said that it wasn't fair to me that she wasn't giving me what I needed in the bedroom and was considering giving me a "hall pass". I declined the pass and told her that I wasn't interested in other people and thought it would just make things worse. I apparently missed the big red flag.
Thur May 14, 2020 - Unconventional BD. W says she wants to talk and again offers me a "hall pass" and again I declined. This is when the bomb dropped. W says that she wants a hall pass. Oddly enough I didn't even get mad. I just listened and asked a few probing questions. Over the next couple of hours I learned a lot about my W and how she was feeling. Apparently over the last couple of years she found herself being aroused by other people (3 in total). The first two were unrequited but that now there was a new person and it had turned into essentially an EA. The OM is a coworker (they all were) who is also married and my W tells me they have not been physical yet and she has never cheated but they both "really want to" and she wants permission. She tells me all the usual cliches ILYBNILWY, "I'm not attracted to you anymore", etc. Unlike most BD's though she also says she loves our life together, and does NOT want a divorce or even a separation. We spent some time discussing the merits and pitfalls of open marriages.
I told her I understood why she felt that way, that we had become too distant, I owned my part in it, for neglecting the problems we had. I told her I would not be ok with an open marriage, especially as a first solution. I told her maybe as a last resort, but that if she really did love our life together then maybe we should seek MC and try to get back to where we used to be and regain what we had lost. She was reluctant at first saying she wasn't sure it could be fixed but eventually she decided she would try. I am not sure if this was because she really wants to or if it's because she is afraid to be alone since she can't support herself financially and her OM already has a wife who he says he will never leave.
My wife only works weekends (she is going back to school to become a nurse during the week) and the OM only works on Saturdays. Supposedly that next Saturday she told the OM that they could not be physical b/c she was going to try with me. Of course I have no proof. The next week I started noticing her being sneakier with her phone so the EA was definitely still happening. We searched for a MC and found one but contact wasn't returned until Mon May 25 and our first appt was on May 29. W told the counselor the same thing that she did not want a D and that she did want our marriage to work. The MC correctly identified their relationship as an EA and told my wife that if she wanted this to work she needed to end the EA and since they work together they had to keep it professional. W appeared to understand.
As soon as the MC video conference ended (Thanks Covid-19), W says, "I feel like I am being told what to do". I replied, well you kind of are. W had had a biopsy 3 days prior (benign YAY). I said, just like with your biopsy, the Dr. told you to not take aspirin products for several days, leave the bandage on for 2 days and the steristrips on for 5 days, if she wanted it to heal properly. I said this is no different, the Dr. is telling you what to do if you want this to heal properly. She appeared to understand.
That night she made it a point to wear new underwear which she would go to work in the next day. She stayed after work to "talk" to the OM and supposedly tell him that they needed to keep it professional and not have outside contact. Should I believe this or did she rebel against the Dr and turn the EA into an A?
Our next MC session is this Friday and she says she needs some alone time to gather and document her thoughts before the session and says she can't do that at home. She want to go spend a night or two in a hotel alone. I have my doubts that she would be alone. She even told me that when she did go to the hotel, to not get any ideas about trying to be romantic and surprising her. So is she really just reflecting and documenting or is she having a PA?
She still says ILY and kisses me each night at bed time and before leaving the house. We still live in the same house, sleep in the same bed, and share dinner together and many lunches.
So here I am reading these forums and seeing all sorts of advice to distance but we have been doing that for over a decade. It would be hard to be more distant without me forcing a separation. I see advice that she won't change until she feels loss for her actions. So should I force a separation? I also see advice that the best thing is to try to spend more time together, to "date" again, which she has agreed to try along with the MC. We did go out on a "date" on May 22 but couldn't stay out too late b/c she had work in the AM. At my request, she also compiled a list of hobbies/activities she might want to do with me and we are making plans to do some of them. Is she doing this to appease me so I won't leave or b/c she really wants this to work?
Bottom line is, I am completely unclear which phase I am in. If she really did break things off with the OM and really does just want the alone time to reflect and think, and really does want things to work between us then we may be at least close to reconciliation and we should be doing more date night stuff. If my previously OVERLY-honest W is suddenly really dishonest and instead of breaking things off changed the EA to a PA and wants me to basically pay for a hotel love nest for her and the OM, then I am in a different boat entirely with a completely different set of rules (WW??? and/or MLC???) and maybe I should force a separation to trigger the loss. Not knowing which boat I am even in is making my choice of next actions all but impossible.
Part of me thinks I should force the separation anyway just to make sure. Am I wrong in thinking this way. What if she is being honest and me forcing a separation drives her back to the OM? I can almost here her yelling "First you make me break it off with "OM" and now you're dumping me too?". Should I allow her the night in a hotel to reflect. She want so do it this week so time on this decision is of the essence. She will probably try to book the room in the next 24-48 hours.
I almost envy those with a WAS/WAW. At least they know exactly where they are and can proceed accordingly.
For me and my work I have started working out again, something I haven't done in at least 15 years. It feels good to get moving again. As far as GAL goes well that's going to be a bit harder. I moved to this new city 21 years ago, met my wife shortly after and we have been together since. All of my pre-marriage friends live 2 hours away, with the closet about 1 hour but he has a bad work schedule for getting together plus he is paranoid about C19. All of my other friends are essentially husbands of her sister or her friends. I can't meet co-workers because I have worked from home for many years and my companies nearest office is over 1000 miles away. My W and Step-D and our mutual friends have basically been my whole world for nearly 20 years. I don't even know what my outside interests are or who I could share them with if mot my W.
There is a LOT more history of how we ended up in a SSM and why we emotionally disconnected but if I added it here this would be well into the TLDR territory. Maybe I will add that in a later post.
I appreciate any insight or advice as to where I am and what I should do next.
Me-46 W-39
Step-D20 (and pregnant)
T-19, M-17
BD May 14, 2020
EA revealed May 14, 2020
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Texan welcome the board. I am a fellow native Texan! (Texas rules!) Anyway, I am sorry you have to be here. I can relate to a lot of what you've typed. I was very much in a similar situation with my W's first EA. And certainly with the second EA. The big difference being my W knew I would never be open to an open marriage. So when I confronted her on her first EA 14+ years ago she immediately said she didn't want a D, and that she wanted to work on us. But it was reluctant. The EA addiction was strong and took her weeks and months to get over it. Even reaching out to AP a few times. He, too, was married and only wanted some strange. He was not going to leave his W and family for her, he just wanted to use her body. (I think deep down she knew that.)
With the second EA, I think she was much more into getting it to the physical. When confronted she immediately said she wanted a D. I think as wayward as she was, if I had floated the idea of an open marriage, she would have jumped at the idea. I think at first she would have declined but then as she thought about it she would have wanted to try it. Again, no way was I agreeing to that, and she knew that.
Here is the thing. This did not happen overnight. This is OM #3, even if the other two weren't interested for whatever reason. You have to face some hard truths. Likely, they've already been physical with him. There are already so many red flags. The "hall pass" was likely not to get your permission as it was to relieve her guilt. My W said many times that it would have been easier for her if I had cheated on her. But the staying late to chat. The wanting to get a hotel. All huge red flags. I think this thing is much deeper than you know.
Second, even if she is saying she wants to stay married, etc, it is a lie. If this guy were single she'd likely already be entertaining thoughts of leaving you for him. The fact that he is unavailable for that means that she needs to keep you as Plan B. Open marriage would be the easiest course for her. But short of that she realizes that she needs to keep telling you what you want to hear. This is called "throwing you off the scent". She is not at all committed to your marriage right now. And that means that you should not be in MC.
I would head that hotel off a the pass. Tell her: “I’ve decided to stop marriage counseling. I feel that it would just be going through the motions at this point. I’m going to start individual counseling on my own. A lot has happened and I need help processing it so I can heal and move forward.”
This will do two things. It will stop the sham that MC is right now in your MR. She IS just going through the motions because she needs you to be there right now. Plus later she can tell people "we tried everything, even MC!" And it will also put to the test this need to have "alone time to gather and document her thoughts before the session". If after you stop MC she still wants that alone time.....well, you have your answer.
You also need to get back to the life you had before her. Get with old friends, even if just phonecalls and texts. Pick up old hobbies and get back in touch with them. Really discover the inner you that you have lost. I see you alrady making GAL excuses. Drop those. Where there is a will there is a way! You need to read like crazy and start instituting changes to yourself. Get DR, read it. Get other self-help books, read them. Concentrate on becoming the best TheTexan you can be! And then work on detachment. Learn what that means and start detaching. You need to get to a place where you W words and actions (and there will be many shocking ones to come, trust me) do not affect you emotionally!
As far as your actions towards her? You need to really do nothing. Your goal right now is to remove all pressure and pursuit. To back way off and give her room to decide things for herself. A huge red flag is her saying she feels she is being told what to do. Wayward wives are rebellious. She is going to buck against anyone and anything that tells her not to do what she wants to do. This is why MC is fruitless. The MC says "this is an EA and you need to stop it". Guess what? She is going to want to amp it up! So back off, let her figure her stuff out. DO NOT TRY TO CONTROL HER!
And I see a lot of control red flags with you: "If my previously OVERLY-honest W is suddenly really dishonest and instead of breaking things off changed the EA to a PA and wants me to basically pay for a hotel love nest for her and the OM"
Have you always been controlling with money? You said she works, are you saying she can't pay for her own hotel room? Even if you don't, do you think OM can't? Anyway, if you put an end to MC, then you don't have to worry about the need for her to be alone....unless she is really lying about it.
GAL. 180s. Detachment. Remove all pressure and pursuit. Do not try to control her. Let her go to get her back. That is what you should be focusing all of your energy on now.
Thank you for the warm welcome Steve85.
I have already ordered DB and it is supposed to arrive today. I am literally stalking the Fed-Ex guy. I will definitely try the "stop MC advice" tonight. After reading your post I am almost more convinced that I should push for separation to make sure she knows she is losing me by her actions and to see if she really wants to make this work or is just going through the motions.
As far as detachment and distancing, how do I respond when she says ILY and kisses me goodnight or goodbye? Refuse the kiss and don't respond? People keep saying do a 180, but detachment and distancing is what we have been doing for 10+ years. A 180 would be spending more time together.
To address your control concern, the answer is sort of. She does work and her income is roughly 1/7 of the total household income but that isn't the issue. My W was a horrible impulse buyer, the first several years despite a very nice income we were perpetually broke because she was "twenty-dollaring" us to death. One day she was upset b/c we didn't have $200 for something she really wanted. So I went around the house and gathered up all the $10-$20 junk she had bought in the last month and laid it at her feet and said there was the $200 she needed (it was more like $380-$420 worth of junk). She got the point. After that I did control money a bit tighter. In the years since then, I was able to buy her a new house, the dream bed she wanted (a $10,000 Sleep Number bed), buy her dream car (Honda Pilot) (nearly paid in full at time of purchase), take vacations, pay cash for her new degree instead of loans, and still build a sizeable savings. Now some of that was some bill control, but yeah she really was wasting that much. So as strange as it may sound, she actually appreciates that control and what it allows her to actually get. She has said as much several times, especially when family and friends ask her how we do so well and live the lifestyle we have. I really don't control anything else.
I really pray that you are wrong about them already being physical. The fundamental truth is, if I do find out that they have already been physical, this all of this is for nothing, as I would never want her back or to even touch her again. The thought utterly disgusts me and I know me and I would never be able to get that trust back if we had eternity to rebuild it. That may be my hang up, but I refuse to be my W's sloppy second. I would happily take the D and move on with my life in that case. I deserve to be with someone that wants me for me, is actually in love with me, and is attracted to me.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my W more than anything, but I couldn't live with anyone after a betrayal like that. I would always be paranoid that it was still a lie just to keep her lifestyle and about it happening again. Again my issue, but I am at least honest about it.
Maybe a little more history of how we ended up emotionally distant might help.
As mentioned we were in a long term SSM although not really either of our faults. Early on things were fine as they are in most R's. A couple of years in she started complaining that sex hurt, like "pins and needles". We saw many Dr's, there were no STD's, no problems, issues, or any thing that anyone could find. She literally asked everyone she knew, friends, family, no one had any clue. So of course our SL suffered. While I understood the why, it didn't make it any easier to handle.
In the middle of all this her best friend and her husband both lost their jobs and were evicted, so they came to stay with us for about a year. During this time I noticed my wife becoming more distant, less passionate, less into any sort of "PDA" even in private. Unbeknownst to me until after they had moved out, her "friend" had been in her ear the whole time telling her that we were gross, that our affections were disgusting, etc. Over the year that constant barrage of negativity seeped in. The friend divorced her husband shortly after moving out.
The ex-husband of my wife's friend met a new woman, (now married) and she became my wife's new best friend. When my wife told her of the problem, this new woman finally had the answer to our pain problem. It turned out the soap I was using was the culprit. Sure enough changing soaps and the problem was gone. Unfortunately most of the damage had already been done, we were no longer passionate, sex while much better was still rare. She had gotten used to never wanting it and I had already started to emotionally distance myself.
There was a bit more to the problems, my younger brother and both of her parents died at various points which each time caused some setbacks. Twice I had to take pay cuts to keep my job which didn't help stress levels.
Over the years that followed, she wanted it less and less and I was less and less emotionally available. As all of my friends were husbands of her friends/family, I retreated into video games. It was the only place I had that was just mine alone. I was not really a gamer before. It became a downward spiral that brought us to the point of once per year usually in the spring (April/May time frame). I accept my part in all of this. I didn't give her what she needed emotionally. I wish I had heard about SSM and DB 10-12 years ago, maybe I wouldn't be where I am now.
Through it all, I still supported everything she ever wanted to do, never discouraged her. Every job change, first degree "Associates in paralegalism" (she never got a job as a paralegal though), her now second degree she is working on, everything. I was her rock through the grief of dying parents.
The only thing I didn't support her on was having another child. She had a child from a previous R, not M which I have raised as my own since age 1. I had always wanted a child as well but with the SSM is full swing, I was not always sure I could stay in the M and didn't want to be baby daddy #2. Also she was a smoker and I had asked her to quit so that it would not jeopardize the health of our child. She didn't quit until about 2 years ago but by then there was no way to make a baby since we never performed the act to make one. She has said she resents me for this, and I fully understand, to a degree I also resent her for this. Who knows maybe she never gets past that this one issue and we really are doomed. I am not sure we will ever be really sure.
Thank you for the warm welcome Steve85.
I have already ordered DB and it is supposed to arrive today. I am literally stalking the Fed-Ex guy. I will definitely try the "stop MC advice" tonight. After reading your post I am almost more convinced that I should push for separation to make sure she knows she is losing me by her actions and to see if she really wants to make this work or is just going through the motions.
One thing to learn Texan is that talk is cheap. And with your financial situation she will probably resist separation until she is able to either by living with OM, or at least having him fund it. We have a saying around here, a monkey doesn't jump from the branch it is on until it finds another branch that can support it.
So "pushing" for separation falls into the pursuit and pressure category. Especially since you just admit you don't really want to separate but that you want her to see she is losing you. Many LBSs have done things like that for the wrong reasons ("maybe it will wake her up!"), only to end up physically separated. I point out to people all the time here that LBSs always think the grass is greener. "It would be easier if we were physically separated!", but then those that are say "it would be easier to show her I've changed if we still lived together!" You will be miserable no matter what. Trust me on that. If she stays and you guys are in limbo, you will be miserable. If she goes, you will wonder what she is doing and with who and struggle with wanting to contact her. It literally is a darned if you do darned if you don't scenario. So be careful what you wish for.
As far as detachment and distancing, how do I respond when she says ILY and kisses me goodnight or goodbye? Refuse the kiss and don't respond? People keep saying do a 180, but detachment and distancing is what we have been doing for 10+ years. A 180 would be spending more time together.
The general rule is to not initiate, but if she does it is ok to reciprocate. Detachment and distance doesn't mean you have to reject her. It means you are the lighthouse! You are standing where you've always stood, shining a saving light. She can either come towards the light or not, that you have no control over. But you stand and let her come to you.
And do not use 180ing as an excuse to break the moratorium on pressure and pursuit. Yes a 180 might be to spend more time together. But I like to use the analogy of someone just eating. Your W is full. And you are trying to get her to eat more. Ever have someone do that to you? It is annoying. So when she tells you "I am full", don't try to get her to eat more, back off and wait until she gets hungry again. Also think about it this way, your W has essentially told you she wants none of you right now. Is it logical to now try to push more of yourself on her? That may have worked 6 months ago, a year ago, etc, but not now.
To address your control concern, the answer is sort of. She does work and her income is roughly 1/7 of the total household income but that isn't the issue. My W was a horrible impulse buyer, the first several years despite a very nice income we were perpetually broke because she was "twenty-dollaring" us to death. One day she was upset b/c we didn't have $200 for something she really wanted. So I went around the house and gathered up all the $10-$20 junk she had bought in the last month and laid it at her feet and said there was the $200 she needed (it was more like $380-$420 worth of junk). She got the point. After that I did control money a bit tighter. In the years since then, I was able to buy her a new house, the dream bed she wanted (a $10,000 Sleep Number bed), buy her dream car (Honda Pilot) (nearly paid in full at time of purchase), take vacations, pay cash for her new degree instead of loans, and still build a sizeable savings. Now some of that was some bill control, but yeah she really was wasting that much. So as strange as it may sound, she actually appreciates that control and what it allows her to actually get. She has said as much several times, especially when family and friends ask her how we do so well and live the lifestyle we have. I really don't control anything else.
Yes, that is what she says. But this dynamic (and it was present in my MR too!) has turned you into father and daughter. Daughter must ask daddy's permission to buy X, Y, and Z. Even the example you gave of gathering the "junK" and showing her where the $200 she needed was is controlling. Nitpicking every expenditure (let me guess, you even took over the grocery shopping duties to control the spending?), while she may have even admitted was necessary, certainly would still engender a good deal of resentment. And it also would mean that your MR went from partnership to boss-employee. That is a recipe for disaster.
This is where a 180 could come in! Setup household budgets, and let the budgets be the control. Not TheTexan approving every expenditure in the house.
I really pray that you are wrong about them already being physical. The fundamental truth is, if I do find out that they have already been physical, this all of this is for nothing, as I would never want her back or to even touch her again. The thought utterly disgusts me and I know me and I would never be able to get that trust back if we had eternity to rebuild it. That may be my hang up, but I refuse to be my W's sloppy second. I would happily take the D and move on with my life in that case. I deserve to be with someone that wants me for me, is actually in love with me, and is attracted to me.
I wouldn't have enough fingers and toes even if I had 4 sets of hands and feet to count the number of LBSs that come to this forum with this attitude. Only to let it go the minute they find out the PA is already underway. Is a PA a legitmate actual dealbreaker for you? Or are you just saying that because you are hoping beyond hope it hasn't happened yet? Here is the thing, a lot of these sitches we see, by time the WAS is ready to BD, the deed with the OP has already been done. I am not blunt with you to scare you or hurt you, but to prepare you. Likely it has already happened. And if not, it is imminent based on her "hall pass" talk and BD.
So if you are serious, do your due diligence now. Get a free consult with an attorney. Be ready to do what you need to do to protect yourself. Because the odds are that if you are serious about it being a deal-breaker than the deal has already been broken.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love my W more than anything, but I couldn't live with anyone after a betrayal like that. I would always be paranoid that it was still a lie just to keep her lifestyle and about it happening again. Again my issue, but I am at least honest about it.
Again, lots of LBSs have made statements like this but then waffle when it becomes a reality.
Maybe a little more history of how we ended up emotionally distant might help.
As mentioned we were in a long term SSM although not really either of our faults. Early on things were fine as they are in most R's. A couple of years in she started complaining that sex hurt, like "pins and needles". We saw many Dr's, there were no STD's, no problems, issues, or any thing that anyone could find. She literally asked everyone she knew, friends, family, no one had any clue. So of course our SL suffered. While I understood the why, it didn't make it any easier to handle.
In the middle of all this her best friend and her husband both lost their jobs and were evicted, so they came to stay with us for about a year. During this time I noticed my wife becoming more distant, less passionate, less into any sort of "PDA" even in private. Unbeknownst to me until after they had moved out, her "friend" had been in her ear the whole time telling her that we were gross, that our affections were disgusting, etc. Over the year that constant barrage of negativity seeped in. The friend divorced her husband shortly after moving out.
The ex-husband of my wife's friend met a new woman, (now married) and she became my wife's new best friend. When my wife told her of the problem, this new woman finally had the answer to our pain problem. It turned out the soap I was using was the culprit. Sure enough changing soaps and the problem was gone. Unfortunately most of the damage had already been done, we were no longer passionate, sex while much better was still rare. She had gotten used to never wanting it and I had already started to emotionally distance myself.
There was a bit more to the problems, my younger brother and both of her parents died at various points which each time caused some setbacks. Twice I had to take pay cuts to keep my job which didn't help stress levels.
Over the years that followed, she wanted it less and less and I was less and less emotionally available. As all of my friends were husbands of her friends/family, I retreated into video games. It was the only place I had that was just mine alone. I was not really a gamer before. It became a downward spiral that brought us to the point of once per year usually in the spring (April/May time frame). I accept my part in all of this. I didn't give her what she needed emotionally. I wish I had heard about SSM and DB 10-12 years ago, maybe I wouldn't be where I am now.
Through it all, I still supported everything she ever wanted to do, never discouraged her. Every job change, first degree "Associates in paralegalism" (she never got a job as a paralegal though), her now second degree she is working on, everything. I was her rock through the grief of dying parents.
The only thing I didn't support her on was having another child. She had a child from a previous R, not M which I have raised as my own since age 1. I had always wanted a child as well but with the SSM is full swing, I was not always sure I could stay in the M and didn't want to be baby daddy #2. Also she was a smoker and I had asked her to quit so that it would not jeopardize the health of our child. She didn't quit until about 2 years ago but by then there was no way to make a baby since we never performed the act to make one. She has said she resents me for this, and I fully understand, to a degree I also resent her for this. Who knows maybe she never gets past that this one issue and we really are doomed. I am not sure we will ever be really sure.
Couple of things here. I know society has changed and moved on from the old-fashioned world of the man being the leader of the household. But I think there is a lot of biology at play here. Watch little boys play vs. how little girls play. Boys are aggressive, competitive, hot-tempered even. Girls tend to play things that are cooperative, they are courtesy with each other "No you can have the good doll", etc. Biology has set it up for men to be the leaders. Therefore when there is something amiss in the home, the last thing a man should do is point to the problem and say "it is her fault".
I believe that men should lead in the bedroom....but it starts outside of the bedroom. You cannot be an angry, resentful, controlling jerk during the day, and then get between the sheets and be all "Come here honey!" As a fellow Texan, big and tall bald TV therapist likes to say "how's that working for you?" So take responsibility for this. The exact WRONG way to go about dealing with a SSM is to withhold the emotional connection she needs. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy. "My wife is never in the mood so I've withheld all other forms of intimacy from her!" Doesn't make sense, does it?
Now, that is the past. But clearly she has needed that emotional connection because she has now sought it out in 3 OM. Wake-up call!!
Oh, and spending oodles of time in a video game, also not a good way to deal with it. I have seen so many LBHs that admit that their gaming became an issue. So you need to 180 on that as well. Not for her. Not for MR, but for you. You will be much more productive without that in your life.
As far as the child. I can relate. We have one daughter. SSM had started to creep into our lives when we had our first daughter. I was resentful. I was controlling (mostly withe money). I nitpicked her housekeeping, how she spent her time etc, all out of anger and bitterness. When she came to me at one point and said she wanted another child, I refused for many of the same reasons you cite. If you are able to save your MR, and you and her end up reconciling, I would highly suggest you 180 on this. I am 51, she is 52. We are past child-bearing years now. I regret not giving her another child all the time because it is the one thing I cannot fix.
So I get it. First, let's get you right! Do not dismiss what I said about IC! IC did me wonders. Then when you are right maybe she will be open to reconciling. And then after that, you guys can put in the work to fix your MR, heal, and move forward.
It starts with you.
OK I will hold of on the separation conversation for now. I do get what you mean about the money, though I am not sure what I would go back and change on that front, even if I could. My wife also has MS, so having that extra money for medical bills, has been a godsend.
I hate shopping and do everything I can to get out of doing it. For groceries we really don't even use a budget. What we have always done was sit down, decide what we want to eat for the week then go buy what we need to make those 7 meals + lunches, snacks, etc. I don't go with her clothes shopping either, though we do use a budget there with some +- leeway. She will call if she plans on going WAY over for some reason though. I have NEVER, not even once, denied her anything she needed. The only thing I really put a stop to was random junk gadget buying. She literally bought 9 pencil holders over less than a year (because they were cute and ONLY cost $10-$20 each). No one needs that many pencil holders. She bought lots of stupid kitchen gadgets, many of which, that even after 12+ years are still IN THE BOX unused. For instance one of the early ones was a funnel cake making kit, yet after 15 years not 1 funnel cake has been made in this house. That is what I mean by wasting money. Buying something needed is always alright no approval required. Buying unnecessary trash that will never get used is the line. I can see how that is still control, but I also know without it, especially with her medical bills, we would be dead broke instead of sitting pretty. I will try to work on it though.
I am not a waffler, or a crawfisher. Cheating is a 100% deal breaker. I was engaged once before and she cheated. I took the ring I gave her and never spoke to her again. I feel so strongly about cheating I won't even watch movies about cheating such as Indecent Proposal. I have spent the last two days preparing myself mentally to initiate a separation if that was the advice I was given or a D if I found out she had cheated. After dealing with this mess for 2 weeks and losing sleep, Friday night when I really suspected her cheating and made up my mind if I am right it was all over, the last 3 nights have been the best sleep I have since this started.
i have not confronted her with my suspicions and evidence yet, I wanted to wait to hear from you guys first. Speaking of should I tell her what I suspect and why or just leave it be? I think she is the type that when confronted if it's true would not be able to hide it. It was like that when she was hiding her relapse with smoking. She hid it for a while but when confronted she couldn't look me in the eye and deny it.
Either way, I already know that even with a D I will survive, I could probably even thrive better than I have for the last 10 years. This is emotionally challenging but I know that once I know for sure I can "let go and let god" and be just fine. For now, I just finished my new daily workout and I'm feeling good.
I know what I did was wrong, I only see it now though. Watching the Tedx Talk on SSM was the real eye opener. It was us to a T.
When my W told me about this, she said she was "broken". I told her she wasn't and that I owned at least half of any blame. I admitted that I hadn't been giving her the emotional connection she needed and understood why she wanted to fill that need elsewhere. And I do understand. That is why through all of this I have not gotten mad or raised my voice even once.
I haven't even thought about a video game since this started. I threw that crutch away like it was a bomb. I have been doing nothing but focusing on reading these forums, watching videos about MR problems and possible solutions. As long as there has been no PA, I really would like to save this. If there has been a PA, then it's already over. I have accepted this and as soon as I did, it felt like a weight had been lifted off my shoulders.
I agree, I wish I had given her a child as well. Without that major resentment, I think we would have a better chance, and even though I am 46 and she is 39 and we technically could, with her starting a new career, she doesn't even want to start over with a child now. Plus we will have a grand baby in 3 months. Maybe that will give her the baby fix she needs. Who knows.
Just got an email from Amazon, my delivery of the DBing book is not going to be here today after all.
/sigh
Just got an email from Amazon, my delivery of the DBing book is not going to be here today after all.
/sigh
How are you doing reading all the links I gave you?
Just got an email from Amazon, my delivery of the DBing book is not going to be here today after all.
/sigh
How are you doing reading all the links I gave you?
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^
After I got Cadet's welcome email I went through and read everyone of the links he provided. In detail. I would occasionally go back and reread them all (actually I am due to do that again). Knowledge is power, The Texan. Learn all you can!
Just got an email from Amazon, my delivery of the DBing book is not going to be here today after all.
/sigh
How are you doing reading all the links I gave you?
Just got an email from Amazon, my delivery of the DBing book is not going to be here today after all.
/sigh
How are you doing reading all the links I gave you?
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^
After I got Cadet's welcome email I went through and read everyone of the links he provided. In detail. I would occasionally go back and reread them all (actually I am due to do that again). Knowledge is power, The Texan. Learn all you can!
I noticed that list of links was the first reply to everyone's first post so I had been going through them since Friday. I have read the first couple of pages of all of them. Speaking of which the link to "Stages of the LBS" works but the first post of that thread is all about another link which is broken.
sandi2's thread "LBH with a Wayward Wife" seems to be one the most helpful right now.
UPDATE:
So I had planned on confronting the wife in an attempt to find out for sure if the EA was really a PA. I ended up not having to.
My W had been in a really foul mood when she got home from work on Sunday, but I didn't engage with that mess and left it alone. Monday (yesterday) she again was still in this mood and taking it out on her D20 as they spent the day doing errands together. The D20 was texting me the whole time asking me WTH was wrong with her and that she was about to slap the $%^& out of her mom. I just told her to try and ignore it as best as possible and to not fight with her mom.
So last night when I told my W that we needed to talk, she pretty much just instantly broke down sobbing that she had "messed" everything up. I asked what she meant. She said "everything". "Our marriage, my friendship with OM, everything". I asked her what happened and she told me why she had been in such a bad mood....
As I mentioned before the OM is a co-worker. My wife only works 12 hour shifts on Sat and Sun and the OM works during the week and on Sat so they only see each other on Sat. However on Sunday the OM called my W at work to check if a shipment had come in, upon finding out it had not he told my W "(explicative), that means I have to come in for a bit today". To which my wife replied "Good, that means I get to see you" (yes that means she was not fully disengaged from the EA). Now here is where it gets funny ... to me at least. Apparently the idiotic OM had called my W on speaker phone and his W was standing next to him and she blew up like a bomb. This started WW3 in his MR and he of course became very angry with my W. She hung up and texted him that she was "sorry but was done and was going to leave him alone." He gave no response. It really took everything I had in me to not ROFLMAO. She went on to say she wished she had never pursued anything with him b/c he was a friend first and now she lost even that.
Still sobbing she went on to apologize to me for "basically cheating on me". I asked "how so", she confessed to kissing and some essentially heavy petting but nothing further. (I don't like this, but as I mentioned previously, as long as not full on intercourse I think I can get passed it). She started beating herself up and saying she can't believe she did this to me, to him, to everyone. I just let her break herself down nodding and occasionally saying "yeah" or "ok". I made it a point to never tell her it would be OK or that I forgave her, or anything to make her think her behavior was accepted.
At this point it was getting late and I had to take step-D20's BF home (his car is broke down) and my W went to bed. As I was dropping the D20-BF off, I got a text from the W: "Don't be shocked, I made a drink and I'm up writing. Please don't bother me or let D20. Love you.", I simply replied "OK sounds cathartic. Love you too." (Yes I know that is an improper use of the word cathartic, it's just what popped into my head as I was trying to drive away from the BF house.)
When I got home, I did have to go in the Bed Room to change clothes and the W was sitting on the best crying. I ignored this and said, "just need to change and I'll be out of your hair" and went into the Master Bath (where the closet is) to change. On my way out, I didn't say a word and when I got to the door she asked me to stay. When I sat on the bed, I noticed she had written about a page of stuff, but I didn't even try to read it. She started sobbing again and said she had made things even worse. Apparently while I was gone, she decided to text OM (since she hadn't gotten a response earlier) to make sure he understood things were over between them. Since it was late she had assumed he would be asleep and would not get a response that night. She was partially right. OM WAS asleep, but OM's W was not. My W got a response, she didn't tell me what it was, but I can only imagine the utter hell the OM must be in right about now. A thought about just deserts crosses my mind but I didn't mention that. I simply said "well, I'm not sure what to tell you". She went on sobbing, and beating herself up over her actions and wondering out loud how she got here, how it was not her, or who she thought she was. I just listened.
When she was done, she wanted to know what was next. I told her that I had taken our recent problems and discussions as a wake up call that I hadn't been living the life that I had wanted and in a way that was right for me. I told her that I deserved to be in a relationship with someone that was both in love with me and attracted to me. I told her that I could not make her fall back in love with me and I wasn't even going to try, because I didn't make her fall in love with me the first time. It was her choice the first time and would have to be her choice if she fell in love with me again or not. I told her either way THIS marriage was over, and I was going to build a new life, one where I was more of who I used to be, one where I was living instead of just surviving. I told her I was doing this for me, because it was what I needed and what I deserved. I told her that if she still wanted to date me, we could see where it went, and maybe if we found our way back to each other that we could begin a "new" marriage (symbolically speaking) and try to do better with that one.
I know this probably broke most if not all of the DB'ing rules without even have received the book yet, but when I was done I saw something in her eyes that I hadn't seen in a long long time. Just a hint of a spark of interest. The only thing she said, was "will you hold me?" and I did, until she fell asleep. That was the first time in probably 10 years she wanted that. Now, I have already read enough here to know that this was probably just a short lived moment of weakness on her part, or some attempt to keep me hanging on, and I am not going to read too much into it, but I now feel like the stage is properly set for me to distance and detach and see if she starts coming back to me.
I don't see anything really egregious in what you did or said. You let her be the one to initiate. However, I do have to warn you.
I've been through 2 EAs of my W's. In both cases, after the EA ended she was inconsolable. It wasn't because she was sorry it happened. It wasn't because she felt bad for what she did to me or to our family. In both cases she was mourning the loss of the R with the OM. I know you think she is showing remorse for the EA (the EAs in your case). She is not. She is sorry she got caught and she is grieving the loss of the OM. It is a very difficult thing to watch, to know your W is pining for another guy even when the EA has blown up and has no way of moving forward.
I would also caution you that what she has admitted to is likely not the whole truth. Rarely do people in affairs just come forward with the details of the affair. They will almost always water it down and make seem more harmless than it was. In my W's case, the only reason neither EA had gone to a full blown PA was because of the distance between her and the OM. The first one was in our state, but over an hour away (and married with his own family). The second was several states away (and a complete loser with no money to make a trip). My W admitted to some inappropriate sexual talk in the first EA. I never knew if there had been more than that, though it was before digital photography was pervasive so I don't think it got any further than that. In the second EA, she once again admitted to some inappropriate sexual talk (even though the chats I discovered eluded to pictures being sent). I found later that she had in fact taken and sent him nude photos.
We have a saying around here: Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. I would take her admission with a huge grain of salt.
But your approach is right. You need to GAL, 180 and continue to learn and employee healthy detachment (self-differentiation in marriage). I like that you told her your focus was on you. Now just follow through with action! LBS and WAS are similar in that they often will say and do not! ACTIONS not WORDS. So be sure to follow through.
Thank you Steve85 for your words of wisdom and encouragement. It is exactly what I need right now.
I have been wanting to do some woodworking stuff, but my garage is too full, so I will try to start getting it cleared out to make some room this weekend. I am also going to keep up the daily work outs. And of course keep making her come to me for conversations and affection and reading this book, if it ever gets here.
Oh speaking of books, my MC had recommended the book, "Hot Monogamy". Anyone read that and is it worth getting? Sounds like something more for later when the SSM is getting repaired rather than now but I may go ahead and read that too just to have the tips ready for the right time if it's worth it.
So I went downstairs to get some lunch, and my W came into the kitchen and told me she was "spinning out", she was "going crazy" and might go take a drive to clear her head. I asked if she wanted any lunch before she went. Before she could answer her phone rang, it was the friend of hers that helped solve our "soap" problem. I know it was her because this friend talks VERY loudly, I can tell it's her even when I'm upstairs in my office and I was only about 5 feet away. My W asked her if she could come over and talk, the friend agreed. My W made 2 sandwiches, grabbed the journal she was writing in last night, came up and gave me about a 1 min hug (which never happens), then kissed me and said ILU. I said it back and she said she would be back around 5:00 or so (there have been calls on the internet for for riots in my area for tonight) and she left.
This being my W's best friend and confidant, I am sure there will be a lot of openness (maybe not completely) and discussion until the poor dead horse is thoroughly beaten. I have no idea what kind of advice this friend will give though. Although for better or worse, it will probably be in my favor. I'll let you guys know what transpires when she gets home.
Hey The Texan how did it all go last night?
Hi Mr Tex,
I read your thread yesterday and I'm going to give you my broad take. First, sorry you're here. This [censored], but you can choose to look at the bright side of it and be positive. You have this opportunity and the impetus for growth and true happiness.
Your W is reading out of the same book the other WW's do. I think you made a mistake by saying the open marriage would be OK as a last resort. People make mistakes when they get emotional, so you try to detach and stay in your right mind all the time.
Your focus should begin to shift off of everything she is doing. She is spinning, going crazy, and she even said as much. You need to protect yourself and take care of yourself. You can't fix her through any talking or chivalry. God knows I tried every trick in the book to get my W back but ultimately it was confidence in myself and not pursuing her that let her think about changing her mind.
All the things your W is doing are out of your hands. Let go of the stuff you can't control and focus on what you can. That's where you find true happiness my friend. I'd get out and GAL and think about what you will and won't put up with. I don't think that means you have to decide your in or out of this marriage immediately, but with all the stunts she is pulling maybe you don't want to hug and kiss and hang out. That's up to you though.
Anyways, best of luck to you.
Hey The Texan how did it all go last night?
I have no idea what was was said at the friend's house, I didn't ask, and all she offered was that she needed to find herself. I only said, I agree. She was definitely colder and more distant. I didn't pursue or ask any questions. She asked if we could go get some pizza and go play cards with her Sister. So we did. I only partially did this for the W, but also for my SiL since her husband is a police officer and has been out dealing with riots for days. She is a basket case of worry and anything to help take her mind off for a bit is a blessing.
Wife was colder and distant while in the car all directions and while eating. At her Sister's she put on a mask and wasn't quite as cold. I laughed internally at the farce of it all. She went to bed shortly after we go home, but as always insisted on her goodnight kiss. I reluctantly obliged.
Hi Mr Tex,
I read your thread yesterday and I'm going to give you my broad take. First, sorry you're here. This [censored], but you can choose to look at the bright side of it and be positive. You have this opportunity and the impetus for growth and true happiness.
Your W is reading out of the same book the other WW's do. I think you made a mistake by saying the open marriage would be OK as a last resort. People make mistakes when they get emotional, so you try to detach and stay in your right mind all the time.
Your focus should begin to shift off of everything she is doing. She is spinning, going crazy, and she even said as much. You need to protect yourself and take care of yourself. You can't fix her through any talking or chivalry. God knows I tried every trick in the book to get my W back but ultimately it was confidence in myself and not pursuing her that let her think about changing her mind.
All the things your W is doing are out of your hands. Let go of the stuff you can't control and focus on what you can. That's where you find true happiness my friend. I'd get out and GAL and think about what you will and won't put up with. I don't think that means you have to decide your in or out of this marriage immediately, but with all the stunts she is pulling maybe you don't want to hug and kiss and hang out. That's up to you though.
Anyways, best of luck to you.
One slight correction, I didn't say an open marriage WOULD be OK as a last resort, I said it could only be considered as a last resort. I know the distinction is slight. Upon further reflection, I decided it would never be OK and this has been communicated to her.
I am only hugging and kissing if she initiates, you can't be the lighthouse and be cold and rejecting.
Oh a couple more minor updates.
1. I did get the DBing book yesterday, already finished chapter 4. Although so far (so just about to start the techniques sections). So far it's seem to have a lot of good advice but it feels like it's more for when both people are willing to set goals and work toward them. Would DR have been a better book for my sitch?
2. Last night I was looking for some scissors, and found the journal I previously mentioned she had written in the night before. I couldn't help myself and read it. It was mostly her lamenting about the lost friendship and how she wished she had never started anything, how he "understood her and made her feel again". She was worried this might cost one or both of them their job (not sure how but whatever). One sentence did catch my eye though. "Hell he may have even saved my marriage, but that remains to be seen". While it is nice to see that she at least is considering saving our M, I am still very cautiously optimistic. It's not going to change what I do or need to do but at least now I do have some minor indication that she may be willing to give this a chance and not just telling me what I want to hear to avoid D.
Be prepared for still being Plan B. WWs are notorious for coming back to the MR between As, until they find their next Plan A.
Be prepared for still being Plan B. WWs are notorious for coming back to the MR between As, until they find their next Plan A.
How do you ever trust again that you are plan A? Do you ever really?
When her actions are consistent over a long period of time.
We get this question a lot. The best answer is that when she is really ready to commit back to the MR you will know. One of our regulars shared the quote: "When they want to reconcile, you will know. When they don't, you will be confused."
But when you know you are no longer Plan B is when she is consistent in you being her Plan A over a long period of time.
I know in my sitch, I wondered the same thing. The truth is it won't be a moment where you go: "she seems like I am Plan A starting now!" What happens as her behavior shifts to support that, you will at some point look back and realize that she has been consistent in her actions that you are now Plan A for a period of time. For me it was like 3 months into Ring that I realized she had been consistent in her actions.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about that. Her actions are out of your control. Keep the focus on yourself and you actions and you will be fine no matter what she decides.
Thank you. Right now this forum is the only place I feel I can truly share what is going on and get any sort of unbiased advice. I cannot imagine where I would be without it.
So something interesting happened today. We lost power for nearly 2 hours today due to storms moving through the area. Bored with nothing to do, the W downloaded a book onto her phone and we took turns reading to each other. This is something we haven't done since the very earliest years of our R. It was the first time in a long time we felt like our original selves to me. I don't know how she felt about it, and I'm not putting any real stock in it, but it felt good. We used to do this before bed every night back when we first moved in together. Maybe she will want to keep doing it, we shall see.
That's really sweet.... how fortuitous!
Keep your expectations low... but that was a nice positive moment.
So something interesting happened today. We lost power for nearly 2 hours today due to storms moving through the area. Bored with nothing to do, the W downloaded a book onto her phone and we took turns reading to each other. This is something we haven't done since the very earliest years of our R. It was the first time in a long time we felt like our original selves to me. I don't know how she felt about it, and I'm not putting any real stock in it, but it felt good. We used to do this before bed every night back when we first moved in together. Maybe she will want to keep doing it, we shall see.
Resist the urge to overreact to things like this. Early on my W would do things like this. And I would try to attach significance to it. You cannot. Remember: Consistent behavior over a long period of time. If she is still doing things like this 6 months from now, with no signs of another EA, then you can trust it.
Resist the urge to overreact to things like this. Early on my W would do things like this. And I would try to attach significance to it. You cannot. Remember: Consistent behavior over a long period of time. If she is still doing things like this 6 months from now, with no signs of another EA, then you can trust it.
Yes, I know.
Strangely enough, I feel like I am doing the opposite. With every day that goes by and every little sign she shows me or doesn't show me, I feel like I am trusting her less and less. Last night after she went to bed, I started researching Texas Alimony laws, and required Divorce forms. I started imagining how I would tell her I wanted a divorce. I'm starting to feel like I will never trust or believe her again and that starting over with a clean slate with someone else might be what's better for me. I am going to wait until at least after this weekend, but I am starting to feel like I don't want to save my marriage either.
Is this normal? Is there a way to stop or reverse this in me?
Yes. I went through the same thing about 6 months into Ring and piecing. I got to where I wanted to walk away myself. I gave it weeks before I acted on it, and that is what I would suggest you do. These kinds of feelings come and go. Give yourself time. "If I still feel this way 3 months from now then I will hire a lawyer and start the process."
I have a question though. When you first met your W, did you immediately trust her? Or did she have to earn your trust over time? I am not a "trust out of the gate" person. Whether it is a new friend, the SO of a friend or family, a new boss, employee, etc. I am distrustful until that person earns my trust. I don't think you trusted your W the day you met her. Over time she earned it. And that is back to where you are now. You rightfully do not trust her anymore, but can you trust here again in the future if she is consistent in her behavior over a long period of time?
Yes. I went through the same thing about 6 months into Ring and piecing. I got to where I wanted to walk away myself. I gave it weeks before I acted on it, and that is what I would suggest you do. These kinds of feelings come and go. Give yourself time. "If I still feel this way 3 months from now then I will hire a lawyer and start the process."
I have a question though. When you first met your W, did you immediately trust her? Or did she have to earn your trust over time? I am not a "trust out of the gate" person. Whether it is a new friend, the SO of a friend or family, a new boss, employee, etc. I am distrustful until that person earns my trust. I don't think you trusted your W the day you met her. Over time she earned it. And that is back to where you are now. You rightfully do not trust her anymore, but can you trust here again in the future if she is consistent in her behavior over a long period of time?
Good advice. I do plan on giving it some time. Time to get back into great shape and improve myself enough to make it easier for me to find someone new. Time for MC and LR-ing to maybe work.
My concern is that my trust in her is what kept me blind to what she was up to. So the way my brain works is, now I am not sure I even WANT to learn to trust her and put myself back in that position. I have to ask myself even if her behavior was consistent for 3 years, is she just faking it because she hasn't met someone else yet. What would happen if she met someone new that peaked her interest? I have to ask if I want to risk exposing myself to go through this again. I am just not sure I do. Again, no final decisions will be made until I feel I have improved enough to meet someone new myself. I figure 3 to 6 months at least.
On the bright side these feelings are making it super easy to distance and detach.
Yesterday was pretty uneventful. She spent some time writing and I spent some time working out. I told her I was going to get my car detailed, she decided hers needed cleaned as well as followed me up there. We got home, she cooked dinner, we ate, watched a TV show, she went to bed.
Yesterday was pretty uneventful. She spent some time writing and I spent some time working out. I told her I was going to get my car detailed, she decided hers needed cleaned as well as followed me up there. We got home, she cooked dinner, we ate, watched a TV show, she went to bed.
Working out is great. But I am concerned that you haven't replaced your normal gaming time with more productive things. Those that GAL the least struggle the most.
Well, I haven't played 1 second of any game since this all started. I have really been spending all of that time reading this forum, the DB'ing book, and other sources. I have spent some time doing some cleaning around the house. I know I need to get OUT as part of GAL, I just can't seem to decide what to go do. Excuse? Youbetchya. Easy to get passed? Not in the least.
So I decided to go shoot some pool tonight. Put on some jeans, a nice shirt, my W's favorite cologne for me, and went out. W was at her sisters swimming and called me just as I was walking out the door and asked if I could please bring her some clothes that she forgot so she could get dry to eat dinner and asked if I wanted to eat with them. I took her the clothes and went ahead and hung around long enough to scarf a bit of food, then off I went.
I was OTW to the pool hall (PH) when my step-D20 called, asked what I was doing and if she and her BF could come. I reluctantly said yes. They were dropped off by the friend that had been driving them around all day but he didn't stay. After about 2 hours or so my step-D said she was getting tired and wanted to go home. As I was now their ride I took the BF home then brought the step-D home. When we got home the W was still awake and seemed a bit irritated or mad. Now, our whole family has an app on our phones where we can see where everyone in our circle is, and I guess she had looked at it. I asked what was wrong and she said I had lied to her by not telling her the step-D was going with me to shoot pool. I didn't get angry, I just calmly said "I didn't know she was going to come until after I left", and then I laughed and asked "why would I need to lie about spending time with my kid". W sort of smirked and said "I didn't say it made sense". At least she acknowledged somewhere in the short convo that "she didn't really have the right to be mad either way" which I was already kind of thinking. This whole exchange seemed really weird. Like she was somehow jealous despite what she had done and despite her asking for an open marriage. I had considered going back out, but after this exchange and considering I was already a bit tired I decided not to.
Speaking of that app that we have, should I turn it off when I am GALing? I mean we have all always left it on, even the W during what she did left it on at all times. Seems like me turning it off now would appear extra shady, like I am the one doing something wrong. On the other hand it's hard to be mysterious, when you can be tracked like a convict on house arrest. What do you think about this app?
Hi Texan,
I asked what was wrong and she said I had lied to her by not telling her the step-D was going with me to shoot pool. I didn't get angry, I just calmly said "I didn't know she was going to come until after I left", and then I laughed and asked "why would I need to lie about spending time with my kid". W sort of smirked and said "I didn't say it made sense"... This whole exchange seemed really weird. Like she was somehow jealous despite what she had done and despite her asking for an open marriage.
There may be a motive at work here. Often, cheating spouses try to bring the non-cheating spouse down to their level ("we're both liars"), similar to the way she wanted you to buy into a "hall pass". Steve85 has dealt with EAs successfully, and is a great person to have listening and commenting on your situation.
Hi Texan,
There may be a motive at work here. Often, cheating spouses try to bring the non-cheating spouse down to their level ("we're both liars"), similar to the way she wanted you to buy into a "hall pass". Steve85 has dealt with EAs successfully, and is a great person to have listening and commenting on your situation.
I am not sure I would call it a motive as i am not sure it's a conscious decision, but I am 100% sure you are correct that it is her lies and infidelity that is causing her to be paranoid about me also lying and/or cheating. So I think she is more afraid I am going to go do something out of a sense of revenge or vindictiveness and is preemptively looking for it. I could be wrong though, it's just how it seems to me.
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Not much happened yesterday but here is an account.
W worked from 7am - 7pm. I spent the day working in the garage and digging out an old military footlocker that I want to make something out of. W got home around 7:30, we (me, W, step-D + BF) ate dinner. The W had 2 "beers" with and just after dinner then went to bed.
The only thing to note was that after the W and I had finished eating but were still at the table waiting on step-D (a notoriously slow eater) to finish eating, the W got a text and got a little excited and showed me who it was. It was the female ex-cowrker that was W's second interest (We will call her OW2) but that apparently didn't return the interest. I just said "that's nice" and went back to talking with step-D. Later as the W was going to bed, she told me that the OW2 had gotten a new job and was doing good. Again, I simply replied "that's nice" and that was the end of our convo for the day. She went to bed.
Part of me feel like W reached out to OM2 because her R with OM blew up, but I feel like she pointed it out to me b/c she thinks I am having an A somehow and wants me to know she can too even without OM. I am not sure. She is "def cray cray".
Oh no one ever responded about what I should about that tracking app while trying to GAL. I am not sure what to do with that.
I wouldn't do anything about the tracking app. You shouldn't concern yourself with what she's thinking.
-Spiral
I have the same app for my family. We left it ON for the duration of our sitch.
It's been a couple of days and I owe you guys some updates.
Sunday
Nothing of any importance happened on Sunday. W worked all day. I did my daily work out and went shopping for supplies to work on the military footlocker I dug out of the garage the day prior. I also spent some time reading and had a long talk with step-D about some things she is going through.
W got off work, picked me up and we went out for some Mexican food. We had an OK time I guess. Mostly just some basic conversation about how her day went. She did mention that she wanted to try and meet with OM in a public place sometime this week to try and get some closure. I said, "I think that is a bad idea. It is only going to confuse the situation, but whatever." and then "I will also tell you that men in his position don't usually need any closure so it may not happen." That part of the convo was dropped and we went back to the useless banter as if it never happened.
We went home and she went to bed, I stay up another hour or two.
Monday
I spent most of the day working on work, and the rest of the time on sanding and priming the inside of the footlocker.
It turns out my prediction about OM not needing closure was correct. I am not sure what he texted her or when, but at some point I realized the W was completely bent. I just left her alone. For dinner I made some baked chicken, with garlic butter pasta and sweet corn. Just before dinner was ready the W told me she was super angry at the OM and wanted to know if we could go out after dinner to take her mind off of things. While I have zero sympathy for what she is going through, I had nothing else to do so I agreed. Since there really isn't much open around here to go do, we ended up at a pool hall (different than I went to on Friday). We had an pretty decent time, she had like 4 or 5 drinks and I had 2 beers, and we mainly just talked about the game.
OTW home, the W decided to open up a bit more and told me the OM had basically just thrown her away and didn't even want to talk to her or help her get any closure. I told her "This is kind of a sorry, not sorry situation. I hate to see you hurting, but it's hard to have much sympathy in this case." She said she understood my position.
We got home and the W asked me to read to her until she fell asleep and I did. When she started the tell tale heavy breathing and light snoring, I quit reading. As I tried to move she woke back up and asked me if I would just hold her. I did and eventually we were both asleep. While it was nice and hasn't happened in 15 years, I don't put any faith at all in this behavior and I am about to explain why.
My current thought processes
Last night I had a strange light bulb moment. Back when my wife was busy confessing what she had done with OM, one of those things was "making out". Last night is dawned on me that she hasn't done that with me in at least 15 years and we have only been married for 17 years and together 18.5. This means that my W probably hasn't been IN love with me and attracted to me for basically my WHOLE marriage. I am now starting to believe that the whole marriage was a lie to help maintain her comfort and lifestyle and that maybe she was more in love with the IDEA of being married and in love than she ever was with me. If she has the capacity to fake a marriage for 15+ years, how do I ever trust that what we end up with after DB'ing is actually real and not just another deep fake? I know Steve85 says look for consistency in behavior, but she was mostly consistent for 15 years that now seems fake.
So right now I am really struggling with this and if I am right, then do I even want to try to fix this? The DB'ing book says to think back to a time when things were right and try to do the same behaviors. I am no longer sure there was ever a point where this wasn't broken that we can even try to get back to. If there is it's so far back, I'll never remember it. I have downloaded the paperwork required to file for Divorce. I haven't started filling it out yet though. When we are doing things like reading to each other and holding each other as we have done a few times in the last weeks. It makes me want to stay albeit temporarily. At nearly all other times, I start thinking I would be better off finding someone that actually cares and isn't going to fake an entire marriage for convenience and comfort.
I feel like I am in the Matrix and being offered 2 pills. I can take the blue pill and I'll wake up in my bed, forgetting this ever happened, and can live the rest of my life in blissful ignorance that my whole marriage is nothing more than an elaborate construct designed to keep me just content enough to stick around but never never enough for true happiness or any feelings of being loved.
OR I can take the red pill, and I stay awake, file for divorce, and reenter the real world, cold and alone, and back at square one in my love life at age 46 with all new dating conventions and new tech, and all the wild weird crap that goes along with trying to find a new love interest and maybe even a new soulmate in the current times and I will get to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes.
I feel like I am in the Matrix and being offered 2 pills. I can take the blue pill and I'll wake up in my bed, forgetting this ever happened, and can live the rest of my life in blissful ignorance that my whole marriage is nothing more than an elaborate construct designed to keep me just content enough to stick around but never never enough for true happiness or any feelings of being loved.
OR I can take the red pill, and I stay awake, file for divorce, and reenter the real world, cold and alone, and back at square one in my love life at age 46 with all new dating conventions and new tech, and all the wild weird crap that goes along with trying to find a new love interest and maybe even a new soulmate in the current times and I will get to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes.
Hi Texan,
I am skeptical she stopped at making out. Cheaters don't value honesty.
I would point out that taking the RED PILL or the BLUE PILL are not the only choices. There are also many PURPLE PILLS of varying shades--where you don't pretend this didn't happen, and you work together to transform your marriage into something different, assuming you're both willing.
I could please bring her some clothes that she forgot so she could get dry to eat dinner and asked if I wanted to eat with them. I took her the clothes and went ahead and hung around long enough to scarf a bit of food, then off I went.
Helllllll naw! You white knighted the hell out of her. You aren't her man anymore in her eyes. You had plans. I'd stop answering the phone so much too, especially when you're busy.
Now, our whole family has an app on our phones where we can see where everyone in our circle is, and I guess she had looked at it.
Get rid of it now. Don't have it on again. Don't let the WW know where you are. It's none of her business IMO as she is holding up to your standards of marriage. You can't be mysterious while she is tracking you 24/7.
W worked from 7am - 7pm. I spent the day working in the garage and digging out an old military footlocker that I want to make something out of. W got home around 7:30, we (me, W, step-D + BF) ate dinner. The W had 2 "beers" with and just after dinner then went to bed.
I would recommend leaving for some GAL around 7 PM then and leave her to her lonesome. Screw being around when she is there. I used to go lay under a tree and read for hours during the height of sitch. It's 100 times better than being in the house when she is there.
I just said "that's nice" and went back to talking with step-D. Later as the W was going to bed, she told me that the OW2 had gotten a new job and was doing good. Again, I simply replied "that's nice" and that was the end of our convo for the day. She went to bed.[quote] Good job Tex.
[quote]Just before dinner was ready the W told me she was super angry at the OM and wanted to know if we could go out after dinner to take her mind off of things.
Man, that sounds rough. You sound like the gay friend. She's telling you about some other dude she has romantic interest in and she wants to use you as a relief valve for that? What in the name of Jesus is going on here? You had made a whole meal and you put that on hold for this? Man oh man...
One slight correction, I didn't say an open marriage WOULD be OK as a last resort, I said it could only be considered as a last resort.
If you said this to her, she used it to justify her behavior and now you are living in the open marriage. Do you really mean this? If so, just get used to your W having OM around and move forward.
As far as the make out situation it sounds like you are pretty worked up right now. It doesn't have to be one or the other of those things. Just calm down for now and you will gain clarity.
But seriously dude, you have to figure out if you're good with the open marriage thing. If you aren't, then we need to figure out how you are going to stop giving her only the parts that she wants while you don't get your needs met. She says she only made out with OM but we don't know do we?
Hey Texan
Hapiness comes from inside. Keep working on yourself. Live your present, stand for your future.
Past is in the past. Don´t try to read it from where you are now.
Keep DB!
Time and patience.
It's been a couple of days and I owe you guys some updates.
Sunday
Nothing of any importance happened on Sunday. W worked all day. I did my daily work out and went shopping for supplies to work on the military footlocker I dug out of the garage the day prior. I also spent some time reading and had a long talk with step-D about some things she is going through.
W got off work, picked me up and we went out for some Mexican food. We had an OK time I guess. Mostly just some basic conversation about how her day went. She did mention that she wanted to try and meet with OM in a public place sometime this week to try and get some closure. I said, "I think that is a bad idea. It is only going to confuse the situation, but whatever." and then "I will also tell you that men in his position don't usually need any closure so it may not happen." That part of the convo was dropped and we went back to the useless banter as if it never happened.
We went home and she went to bed, I stay up another hour or two.
Monday
I spent most of the day working on work, and the rest of the time on sanding and priming the inside of the footlocker.
It turns out my prediction about OM not needing closure was correct. I am not sure what he texted her or when, but at some point I realized the W was completely bent. I just left her alone. For dinner I made some baked chicken, with garlic butter pasta and sweet corn. Just before dinner was ready the W told me she was super angry at the OM and wanted to know if we could go out after dinner to take her mind off of things. While I have zero sympathy for what she is going through, I had nothing else to do so I agreed. Since there really isn't much open around here to go do, we ended up at a pool hall (different than I went to on Friday). We had an pretty decent time, she had like 4 or 5 drinks and I had 2 beers, and we mainly just talked about the game.
OTW home, the W decided to open up a bit more and told me the OM had basically just thrown her away and didn't even want to talk to her or help her get any closure. I told her "This is kind of a sorry, not sorry situation. I hate to see you hurting, but it's hard to have much sympathy in this case." She said she understood my position.
We got home and the W asked me to read to her until she fell asleep and I did. When she started the tell tale heavy breathing and light snoring, I quit reading. As I tried to move she woke back up and asked me if I would just hold her. I did and eventually we were both asleep. While it was nice and hasn't happened in 15 years, I don't put any faith at all in this behavior and I am about to explain why.
My current thought processes
Last night I had a strange light bulb moment. Back when my wife was busy confessing what she had done with OM, one of those things was "making out". Last night is dawned on me that she hasn't done that with me in at least 15 years and we have only been married for 17 years and together 18.5. This means that my W probably hasn't been IN love with me and attracted to me for basically my WHOLE marriage. I am now starting to believe that the whole marriage was a lie to help maintain her comfort and lifestyle and that maybe she was more in love with the IDEA of being married and in love than she ever was with me. If she has the capacity to fake a marriage for 15+ years, how do I ever trust that what we end up with after DB'ing is actually real and not just another deep fake? I know Steve85 says look for consistency in behavior, but she was mostly consistent for 15 years that now seems fake.
So right now I am really struggling with this and if I am right, then do I even want to try to fix this? The DB'ing book says to think back to a time when things were right and try to do the same behaviors. I am no longer sure there was ever a point where this wasn't broken that we can even try to get back to. If there is it's so far back, I'll never remember it. I have downloaded the paperwork required to file for Divorce. I haven't started filling it out yet though. When we are doing things like reading to each other and holding each other as we have done a few times in the last weeks. It makes me want to stay albeit temporarily. At nearly all other times, I start thinking I would be better off finding someone that actually cares and isn't going to fake an entire marriage for convenience and comfort.
I feel like I am in the Matrix and being offered 2 pills. I can take the blue pill and I'll wake up in my bed, forgetting this ever happened, and can live the rest of my life in blissful ignorance that my whole marriage is nothing more than an elaborate construct designed to keep me just content enough to stick around but never never enough for true happiness or any feelings of being loved.
OR I can take the red pill, and I stay awake, file for divorce, and reenter the real world, cold and alone, and back at square one in my love life at age 46 with all new dating conventions and new tech, and all the wild weird crap that goes along with trying to find a new love interest and maybe even a new soulmate in the current times and I will get to see just how deep this rabbit hole goes.
So you are basing this red pill blue pill theory on the fact that she made out with OM but hasn't made out with you in 15 years?
Wow. That's thin.
If you took a poll of married couples married for 15+ years. What percentage of them would say they made-out in the last 15 years? My guess? The % of couples that said they had not made out in 15+ years would be in the high 90s. That means a lot of married couples are living a lie based on the "make out" litmus test.
You are over-analyzing things. And I also think you are a bit naive about how R work. Making out is a early R phase thing. Making out is something you do with a person you are all hot for but that you are not having sex with yet. It is a build-up. And sometimes it is a tool for foreplay. So the lower % of couples that would answer yes to that, on cross-examination would probably admit that their make-out sessions led to sex.
What you are doing is you are trying to reason in your mind how your W could have become this WW, cheating W. And the answer is probably a lot more simple than your entire marriage being a sham. These things are complex. LH likes to point out how unhappy 40-49 year-old adults are. And it makes sense too. Most people get married in their early to mid 20s. Have a couple of kids by time they are 30. By time they are 45 their kids are grown, moving out of the house, and the identity people knew leading up to that point is no longer the same. Am I a parent? A spouse? Am I ready for an empty nest? Is the person I've spent the last 20 years with still the person I fell in love with and married? What am I doing with the rest of my life? I am probably half way through my life, what am I going to do with the rest of it?
So your W's issues that have led you here may or may not have anything to do wtih you! You could have been a stepford husband, perfect in every way, and she may still have decided to step out on the marriage.
What I can tell you, is that the people that look back instead of forward are the ones that remain stuck where they are the longest. The Texan, my concern isn't that you will take the blue pill. Or the red pill. My concern is that you will sit looking at both of those pills trying to decide which one to take for the foreseeable future.
I would point out that taking the RED PILL or the BLUE PILL are not the only choices. There are also many PURPLE PILLS of varying shades--where you don't pretend this didn't happen, and you work together to transform your marriage into something different, assuming you're both willing.
I think you may be right. Our only option is to try and build something completely new with little to no basis in the broken past. The question is can we, and do we really want to.
Again though, I am torn. Part of me wants to try to build something with this woman that I love and have spent 18.5 years with. Then I read threads here like
THIS and
THIS where people have tried to rebuild and after 4 or even 9 years still ended in the big D. I have already spent/wasted (depending on viewpoint) 18.5 years of my life on this marriage. I don't want to keep rearranging chairs on a ship that's going down. I know it is going to take time before I can even know if it's possible to build something new with this person. I am not planning on making a decision today or even soon. I am just posting where my head is at currently.
Helllllll naw! You white knighted the hell out of her. You aren't her man anymore in her eyes. You had plans. I'd stop answering the phone so much too, especially when you're busy.
You are of course right, but I did have an ulterior motive. I wanted her to see me dressed up more than I had in years, and wearing the cologne that she bought me to go out without her. Weakness? Yeah. D**k move? Yeah. It did seem to make her a bit jealous which wouldn't have happened if I hadn't gone over there. Which was what I wanted in the first place.
I would recommend leaving for some GAL around 7 PM then and leave her to her lonesome. Screw being around when she is there. I used to go lay under a tree and read for hours during the height of sitch. It's 100 times better than being in the house when she is there.
That is awesome. I never thought about just wasting time doing nothing like that.
Man, that sounds rough. You sound like the gay friend. She's telling you about some other dude she has romantic interest in and she wants to use you as a relief valve for that? What in the name of Jesus is going on here? You had made a whole meal and you put that on hold for this? Man oh man...
Yeah it was pretty bad, but we did eat the meal before going out. Not that it makes this any better. I do know that prior to all of this happening, I would have resisted going out. One of my W's biggest complaints about me was that it took a crane, or setting the house on fire to get me to go anywhere. Which is why I have been trying to be more willing to go places with her when she asks, regardless of the reason. Seriously, I have been working from home for years, and leave the house so rarely that I use maybe 1 tank of gas in my car in 4 months. Sad, I know.
If you said this to her, she used it to justify her behavior and now you are living in the open marriage. Do you really mean this? If so, just get used to your W having OM around and move forward.
As far as the make out situation it sounds like you are pretty worked up right now. It doesn't have to be one or the other of those things. Just calm down for now and you will gain clarity.
But seriously dude, you have to figure out if you're good with the open marriage thing.
No I am absolutely not OK with an open marriage. I had said that quote in the initial BD convo but have corrected that within a day or two after that happened. I told her that I am a good man and good husband and I deserve someone that really loves me and wants to be with me and only me, regardless if that turned out to be her or not.
As mentioned W and OM are completely done at this point, the OM's W has intervened and the OM has now said and done things to my W to ensure it's over. She seems to practically hate him at this point. I am not saying they can't/won't reconcile in the future, but as of right now, it's done.
As far as two options, that may be true but unless I am missing something, there are only two possible outcomes. Outcome 1 we stay together and outcome 2 is we get a divorce. There may be an infinite number of options and paths to take, but they all lead to one of those two places. My current issue is that I have to determine which outcome I actually prefer. I have to decide which one is right for me and gives me the best chance at a happy life that I deserve.
If you aren't, then we need to figure out how you are going to stop giving her only the parts that she wants while you don't get your needs met.
Yes please. With the OM (at least currently) out of the picture. I really have to find the right way to balance distancing and detachment (GALing) with still being there for her as the lighthouse.
So you are basing this red pill blue pill theory on the fact that she made out with OM but hasn't made out with you in 15 years?
Wow. That's thin.
If you took a poll of married couples married for 15+ years. What percentage of them would say they made-out in the last 15 years? My guess? The % of couples that said they had not made out in 15+ years would be in the high 90s. That means a lot of married couples are living a lie based on the "make out" litmus test.
You are over-analyzing things. And I also think you are a bit naive about how R work. Making out is a early R phase thing. Making out is something you do with a person you are all hot for but that you are not having sex with yet. It is a build-up. And sometimes it is a tool for foreplay. So the lower % of couples that would answer yes to that, on cross-examination would probably admit that their make-out sessions led to sex.
Maybe. How many married couples don't even kiss DURING sex though? I am not joking or exaggerating. We have not kissed DURING sex in 15 years. This is not because I don't want to or haven't tried to. She actively blocks it. She gives me a quick kiss goodnight or when she is leaving to go somewhere, that is the complete extent of the affection she has shown in 15 years. Again I agree affection is going to drop off after 15 years, but it dropped off for us after maybe 2 years and has been at rock bottom for the last 15 years. How many couples married for only 2 years are in that boat?
Still think it's thin?
What you are doing is you are trying to reason in your mind how your W could have become this WW, cheating W. And the answer is probably a lot more simple than your entire marriage being a sham. These things are complex. LH likes to point out how unhappy 40-49 year-old adults are. And it makes sense too. Most people get married in their early to mid 20s. Have a couple of kids by time they are 30. By time they are 45 their kids are grown, moving out of the house, and the identity people knew leading up to that point is no longer the same. Am I a parent? A spouse? Am I ready for an empty nest? Is the person I've spent the last 20 years with still the person I fell in love with and married? What am I doing with the rest of my life? I am probably half way through my life, what am I going to do with the rest of it?
So your W's issues that have led you here may or may not have anything to do wtih you! You could have been a stepford husband, perfect in every way, and she may still have decided to step out on the marriage.
You are of course correct. It could also be her hormones changing, a MLC, or combination of both or a combo of everything you mentioned as well. She has told the MC that even she has no idea why.
What I can tell you, is that the people that look back instead of forward are the ones that remain stuck where they are the longest. The Texan, my concern isn't that you will take the blue pill. Or the red pill. My concern is that you will sit looking at both of those pills trying to decide which one to take for the foreseeable future.
I understand and agree that we should be focusing on the future and moving forward. Again, I am just posting my thoughts. I do not plan on making any final decisions until at least the birth of my granddaughter (expected September 10th). Regardless of anything else that may be going on, I would like my family to be together for that. Who knows, since us not having a child was big part of what drove us apart, maybe loving this new grand child will bring us back together. I'm not going to count on it or expect it, but we will see what impact this has on us. I will say this though, every time my W mentions the future as it relates to the baby, she and I are always in what she says together. She has chosen "Loli" for her grandma name and she has taken to calling me "Popi". She is always saying things like "Loli and Popi are going to X." or "At Loli and Popi's house, we will always have Y." It's always us together, never just "Loli". Not sure if that means anything or not. At the very least (at least subconsciously) she still sees me in her future.
As an aside, we may need to find a new MC since she seems to be focusing more on the past instead of the future and finding solutions or a path forward. The odd thing is the MC was the one that referred me to this site, and twice claimed to be actual friends with MWD and said that she used the same principles when I asked last week. Yet after 2 sessions not one goal has been set, and the only tasks to work on we were given was for me to come here and post and my wife to make a journal and track her steps of grief. We have our third appointment on Friday. It may be our last with this MC.
Yes still thin. My wife started avoiding kissing during sex a few years into our marriage. At the 10 year mark the average was sex once every 3 months. For the entire 10 years. 15 years in it was closer to 4 months. By time we hit our sitch it was once or twice a year. After I realized she was so sex starved during our sitch, I hinted I would be open to sex. She talked to me one night about how she wanted sex, but specifically requested no kissing.
That persisted into our Ring and piecing. It has only been the last few months that during sex she kisses now. But even then it is the exception, not the rule.
It concerned me about the kissing. I started asking people and was shocked to find that not kissing during sex is a fairly common thing for married couples. I was shocked.
Yes still thin. My wife started avoiding kissing during sex a few years into our marriage. At the 10 year mark the average was sex once every 3 months. For the entire 10 years. 15 years in it was closer to 4 months. By time we hit our sitch it was once or twice a year. After I realized she was so sex starved during our sitch, I hinted I would be open to sex. She talked to me one night about how she wanted sex, but specifically requested no kissing.
That persisted into our Ring and piecing. It has only been the last few months that during sex she kisses now. But even then it is the exception, not the rule.
It concerned me about the kissing. I started asking people and was shocked to find that not kissing during sex is a fairly common thing for married couples. I was shocked.
Yeah, I have to say this must be one well kept secret. It is good to know I am not in this boat alone. I just thought that it was kind of a natural part of it. I guess not. As always your advice and feedback are greatly appreciated.
Yes still thin. My wife started avoiding kissing during sex a few years into our marriage. At the 10 year mark the average was sex once every 3 months. For the entire 10 years. 15 years in it was closer to 4 months. By time we hit our sitch it was once or twice a year. After I realized she was so sex starved during our sitch, I hinted I would be open to sex. She talked to me one night about how she wanted sex, but specifically requested no kissing.
That persisted into our Ring and piecing. It has only been the last few months that during sex she kisses now. But even then it is the exception, not the rule.
It concerned me about the kissing. I started asking people and was shocked to find that not kissing during sex is a fairly common thing for married couples. I was shocked.
Yeah, I have to say this must be one well kept secret. It is good to know I am not in this boat alone. I just thought that it was kind of a natural part of it. I guess not. As always your advice and feedback are greatly appreciated.
The Texan, in my sitch I found a book. I can't give you the name because it isn't written by MWD. But Google Women's Infidelity. The author shares a first name with MWD. I found the book fascinating. It really gets into the psyche of women that cheat after years of marriage. Why they do, the biological impulses many women go through. The other reason I like it is the author is very supportive of DB principles, but with a bit of sandi's tough love of flair to it.
I think one of the things I learned going through all of this is that there is no such thing as a unique situation. While some of the dynamics may be different, and obviously people's life situations, the fact is that the underlying issues are often the same. As are the struggles of the LBS. Look at your situation, your W has had EAs (no PAs right?) yet is still there. However, the problem with EAs is that we as LBSs have to wonder that if left unchecked would it have progressed to an PA?
In my first sitch back in 2005, the guy was fairly local (just under an hour away), and he was clearly down the path of trying to get my W to have a PA. That was obvious from the messages I intercepted. My W was deep in on the emotional side. She was dreaming of a life with him. And he was feeding that, grooming her to eventually meet in person. My perception is that that was the one thing he was after, and I feel it was confirmed that once I discovered the EA and blew it up, he went NC on my W, cold. When she slipped up afterward, in your withdrawals (watching her be sad and heartbroken over another guy was almost more than I could take), and reached out to him. He ignored her. Finally he sent her a very short message to the effect of "I think it is better for both of us and our marriages to not be in contact".
Him instantly being able to pull the plug, after weeks of them both staying up late at night (my W was slinking to bed ~3 am most nights), and also him IMing with her for hours while he was at work, proved to me that he one goal in mind: PA. And once I popped that bubble he was on to his next victim. But still, my mind for weeks, maybe even months, after was racing about what came next. Should I have just monitored her activities and not blew the thing up? (I kind of got caught the night I confronted because I was reading the chat logs when she came into the office.) In the messages she was talking about meeting and just having one kiss. Her rationale was that if they met, and kissed, then she could realize that he wasn't all the perfection she built up in her head, and she could move past it. (REMEMBER believe nothing she says and only half of what she does!) But in an email to her online friends that the spy software I had installed captured, she wanted to meet and have a kiss because she just wanted to have a really hot kiss one more time in her life. Yeah, we know where that leads!
So at least with a PA you know how far the A would have progressed. In EAs there is always wonder. Your imagination will go wild to how she would have started lying about where she was (remember this was before smartphones and Life360), who she was with, what she was doing. Would she really have gone through with cheating physically with him, or would her conscience and spiritual side (we are both devout Christians, very involved in our congregation, and were back then as well) kick in and nip it in the bud. Blowing it up my mind would torture me because there was no way to know.
In all of my reading and studying of the subject since the most recent situation, I can now see why some people claim that EAs are worse in some ways than PAs. And even though the OM in our most recent sitch was several states away (he was also a loser, living with his elderly father, and a convicted felon, and no job), I had to again watch my W go through withdrawals when he ended the EA. After having received nude photos of my W, and who knows what else they did virtually.
So I really do understand what you are going through. My MR was a SSM leading up to both situations. As you can relate, my W said she was broken in that department. Any discussion of her lack of desire ended up in stonewalling on both our parts. I became a mean, withdrawn, critical jerk. In my head I would tell myself that she just wasn't a sexual person (though when we met she certainly was!). But that would be shattered by the fact that she seem to be pining for other men. I would wrestle with that for years, and even have to discuss it in IC. Why was she so non-sexual with me, yet so sexual with her EAPs?
And then there are a lot of embarrassing things about me as well through these. Installing spy software to catch her. Checking her panties in the dirty clothes for signs of physical arousal. These kinds of things have a way of turning us into crazy people engaging in behaviors that no rational, sane person would ever engage in. ANd the truth is I was no saint. I've opened up in the last year or so on this forum about my own EAs. Obviously something I am not proud of, but it goes to show that none of us are truly innocent in our situations. My handling of our MR problems was atrocious. I can remember her at certain points begging for her to go into IC (she was early on in our marriage and got nothing out of it, and at the time she wanted to go again we were not financially able to afford it), and beggig us to MC. And then after BD in Dec 2017, I was the one begging for her to do IC and us to do MC.
TheTexan, I don't know if you can relate to any of that, but I see you struggling with many of the same things I did. Attaching importance to things where there is none. Taking what she says at face-value. "I just wanted to make-out with him." Not buying it. As you pointed out, she isn't really into making out, and with you guys having a SSM I am sure her urges were for a lot more than making out. One of the things I discovered in the last sitch was that my W had been ordering sex toys, and hiding them. Here was a woman that claimed she didn't even want sex, and she was buying and hiding sex toys.......... More heartbreak. Why not talk to me about her desires? Why not include me in the play? And then the endless wondering if she had used them while talking to OM? What did that mean for how she felt about me? How she ever felt about me?
Sorry for the novel. But your sitch reminds me a lot of my own. All I can tell you is that if you stick it out, keep working on yourself, make sure to have requirements for her to come back to the MR, then in a few months you can have MR 2.0 with her, and realize how much happier in life you are. If you let her back and do not address the issues you both have, then you will be stuck in the misery you had pre-BD.......and setting yourself up for another BD. I can speak to this because I made that mistake after the 2005 sitch. And even though it didn't happen again for 12 years it eventually did happen, and was much worse. (in 2005 she immediately said she wanted to work on the MR and didn't want a D, in 2017 she immediately said she didn't want to be married and wanted a D.)
Keep working for what you want, and make sure she understands what requirements you have of her.
So much of that sounds like me it's not even funny. I have not installed any spyware, but I actually wrote an app that would capture all SMS messages and send it to my personal server. I decided against installing it though. I struggle with that decision daily. May I ask what the name of that prog was and if you think I should go though with using it?
I can say I have never had an EA of any sort. I'm not saying I wouldn't have if an opportunity ever presented itself, but with me working from home and not really ever going anywhere, the only women I know are either related to one of us, or W's married friends.
Tell me more about these requirements. How do I determine what they are, but more importantly how do I communicate those to the W without sounding like an ultimatum and how do I enforce them?
I did find the book btw. It looks helpful. Thank you so much.
Wow, that was so long ago, 2005, I can't even remember what the applications name was. I just remember installing on the computer, it would capture everything, even keystrokes. It would send things to an email address, but due to it being easier to detect that way I turned it off so it only stored them in an encrypted folder.
Now with smartphones it is so much harder. I thought about trying to get ahold of hers and setting up an application, but the logistics were such, and she was so ready to walk, that I saw that as a bridge too far. She would never cross over that bridge if I built it.
Requirements for staying with her are things like her recommitting fully back to the marriage. IC for her (and you). MC for both of you. Full transparency (so you won't need the app you wrote). Things like that.
Obviously we talked about the first one, needing consistent behavior over a long period of time. If and when that occurs you can then have a conversation about IC and MC. I would hold off on the full transparency discussion until you are both in MC and you can suggest it in that safe zone as something you'll need to be able to trust again. You know, the old "trust but verify".
Glad to help.
I don't think either of us are FULLY committed yet, but I do think we are both trying to some degree. I already told her that for us to even had a shot I was going to need honesty and transparency, but I haven't asked for access to her phone and I wasn't planning on it until I knew if I wanted to install my app on it or not. I was more meaning in our talks with each other and in our convos with the MC.
W is definitely acting different. She wanted me in the bed room with her again on Tuesday night as she went to sleep. Then on Wed, out of the blue, she came and sat in my huge living room chair with me and put her head on my chest and just lay there for a while. We had some small talk about our D20 and her baby and such. I am not sure if her motivation is to fool me into thinking she has changed or if she is trying to see if being closer to me will change her feelings for me. I don't think for a second that anything substantial has changed yet but I do wish I could know her true motivations.
re: Kissing in long-term relationships, I found an article you're likely to enjoy, TheTexan.
Since we're not allowed to post links here, Google: "Stylist investigates how our kissing habits change in a long-term relationship" I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
re: Kissing in long-term relationships, I found an article you're likely to enjoy, TheTexan.
Since we're not allowed to post links here, Google: "Stylist investigates how our kissing habits change in a long-term relationship" I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
That was quite informative, thanks for sharing it. Although one sentence is kind of troubling, and kind of what I have been worried about:
"I think it would be very difficult for a relationship to survive without kissing with tongues. Even if you’re still giving each other pecks on the lips or cheeks the relationship is in trouble.”
The Texan, in my sitch I found a book. .... I found the book fascinating.
I have been looking at this and have 1 question: Is this book(s) for just the man, or just the woman, or both? In other words should I let me wife know about this book or is it like the DB'ing book (for the LBS only)?
The Texan, in my sitch I found a book. .... I found the book fascinating.
I have been looking at this and have 1 question: Is this book(s) for just the man, or just the woman, or both? In other words should I let me wife know about this book or is it like the DB'ing book (for the LBS only)?
Mainly for men.
My W read it too. But it is written from the viewpoint of counseling a left behind husband whose wife started an affair and left him.
I'd read it first and then decide if you think your W should read it to. Mine did, and in a way it helped us, because I think she could see I was going to embrace the tough love approach the author supports. But it also hurt us in a way in that she felt kind of justified in what she was/had been doing.
It is insightful. And it also shows that while our behavior didn't help, a lot of this is biologically based.
The Texan, in my sitch I found a book. .... I found the book fascinating.
I have been looking at this and have 1 question: Is this book(s) for just the man, or just the woman, or both? In other words should I let me wife know about this book or is it like the DB'ing book (for the LBS only)?
Mainly for men.
My W read it too. But it is written from the viewpoint of counseling a left behind husband whose wife started an affair and left him.
I'd read it first and then decide if you think your W should read it to. Mine did, and in a way it helped us, because I think she could see I was going to embrace the tough love approach the author supports. But it also hurt us in a way in that she felt kind of justified in what she was/had been doing.
It is insightful. And it also shows that while our behavior didn't help, a lot of this is biologically based.
I have read the book myself. I wanted to believe it when I was still high on hopium because I wanted to think that my WW was a good person and it was not her choice / fault to have affairs. In fact, I wanted to let her read it, but decided against it, since she would just use it as an excuse for her actions. I figured if she cared enough about finding out the root cause of her behavior, she can stumble upon it herself.
Since I have detached enough and moved on, I don't necessarily agree with it anymore. Sure, hormones play a part in everyone's life. But if that's the case, then every woman would be a cheater. And every guy would just say it's nature for me to spread my seeds. Forget about self control, discipline, and commitment.
Loving it, fair points. In the author's defense I don't think she was saying it was an excuse for women, not that it was an absolute. And like I said I appreciated the author advocating the LBH use DB tactics and tough love.
There are now apparently 2 books from this author, (I ordered PDF versions of them today) the second is geared more toward women and about how to get out of Limbo, but with heavy emphasis on making a decision on what the W really wants after understanding her actions and choices and realizing that no matter where she goes or what relationship she is in, the problems will follow until she accepts responsibility for her own happiness and emotions. It also emphasizes that this decision be made WITH the H about where they both want to go.
I am torn if I want my W to read this second book or not. I feel like I should, because it does call the W on all of her BS but it also point blank tells her that the marriage is over and that if she decides to stay with the H they have to decide together what the new R will be and build it all new from scratch. So while I agree with this, it's hard to imagine handing my W a book that in the politest way possible says "You F'ed up and destroyed your marriage, now you have to either walk away or try to build something new". I guess either way, it will be nice to put this behind me.
The books came with some "bonus" materials that sort of pushes something called "EFT Tapping" as some sort of emotional control meditation as a way to help control emotions and make decisions from a place of logic and reason. This supposedly has shown good benefits for PTSD patients. Anyone ever hear of this and/or tried it?
We read both. Didn't try EFT. I did have a counseling session with the author. And she never mentioned EFT. Her advice was very similar to the advice here though.
Sorry if this post seems like a lot of disjointed rambling. I just needed to dump my thoughts out somewhere.
OK first of all reading that first book was rough. One of the hardest things I think I have ever done. Hearing my W ask for an open marriage and profess caring for someone else was easier and less gut wrenching than reading that god forsaken book. The second book, might actually end up being worth it though. Maybe it will get her to snap out of her limbo and fully commit to staying or fully commit to leaving. At this point, I am OK with either choice. I love my W but have little doubt I could be just fine on my own or even find someone new and be just as happy....possibly happier. Either way, she has the books now and I have to wait for her to read them to have the real convo.
Today was an OK day. We had some good convo throughout the day. We went out for dinner and had a good time. Honestly our completely candid, nothing is taboo, conversations are what I would miss the most if we were to D today. Maybe b/c that is what I get the most of from her.
We also had our 3rd MC session today and I think the MC may end up making this harder. Since the EA is (at least for now) over, the MC is suggesting that we try to touch more. Not like sexual, but like hand holding, or playful flirty touches or something. Not sure really. She is suggesting that I initiate it and that my W allow it as a way to try to remember how we acted in the beginning. As she is saying this, in the back of my mind I am hearing Admiral Ackbar screaming "IT'S A TRAP!!!" Now I feel completely hosed. If I follow the MC advice and the W isn't receptive (as she probably will not be, at least not really), then I make things worse. If I follow DB'ing and distance like I should, then the W can point to me not doing what she heard the MC tell me to do as proof I am not willing to work on things, thus making things worse. AARRRGGGHHH. I feel like I am walking a tightrope with no net on a daily basis. How some of you have dealt with this for years is beyond me. You guys are troopers.
That reminds me, I created a fake Bumble account a week or so ago, just to see what was out there. I have since deleted it since it was getting matches but was completely fake, and I'm not going to catfish anyone (I never contacted or responded to anyone on it). There is a part of me that wants to create a real account, find someone new, then BD the W with D papers, take everything and leave her sticky, broke, and confused.
Yes I am trying to give her a chance to come back, and she does seem like she is trying and slowly coming around. But I am still having a hard time getting past this betrayal and still not sure I want her back and not sure I will ever be able to really trust her again. I am telling her in MC that I want to work this out but while true, it just isn't the whole truth. I like having working it out as an option but she has opened the door to other people. I just can't help but find this somewhat exciting myself. Having been pushed away and rejected for 15 years, the idea of having someone that won't do that, in my life is certainly appealing. Had none of this happened, I would have stayed with her and stayed faithful for life. Having this guilt free "out" though is hard not to consider. She cheated, and at this point NO ONE would blame me for leaving. I could leave and she would be the bad guy. Again not going to make any final decisions until at least the birth of my granddaughter in Sept, but after that if I am not seeing at least some signs of improvement, then all bets are off.
Texan, a few things. Not sure why the read was so tough. Again the author insists the LBH really get tough in order to have a chance at R. Very Sandi like in that advice. Anyway, I won't belabor this but surprised you found it that difficult
As far as the touching, google "touch charges". It is something I employed in my sitch. One word of advice, they need to be subtle. Like lightly touching her lower back as you have to squeeze behind her in the kitchen. Stuff like that. While you're there look into "talk charges" too. They are also a way to start reconnecting subtlety.
As far as the finding someone new. Yep, had same urges. "I am a good looking guy, in shape unlike most guys my age, and make good money! This is my chance at a new start!" But the problem with this approach is that without taking the time to learn and grow you will look back in 5 years and realize you got yourself into the same kind of situation with someone new! Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Plus there is the moral side too. A wring doesn't make a right. If you are going to leave your W do it because you can't trust her again and for what she did. LBSs that wait until they find someone new and then pull the plug with their cheating spouse are just as guilty of cheating themselves! Do it right, D your W, and then after you've had time on your own to deal with everything, go find someone new. Otherwise you're trying to put a bandaid on a severed limb, and that never works.
The books came with some "bonus" materials that sort of pushes something called "EFT Tapping" as some sort of emotional control meditation as a way to help control emotions and make decisions from a place of logic and reason. This supposedly has shown good benefits for PTSD patients. Anyone ever hear of this and/or tried it?
My MIL is a practitioner of EFT and apparently teaches it to others. She wanted my W to do it. As far as I recall it has two aspects to it, one is the tapping (physically tapping on acupuncture reflex points), along with a talking part (which is a positive reinforcement or build yourself up/throw off negatives type thing). I recall looking into it at the time (over two years ago now, so I'm a bit vague on the specifics) and having concerns as to the lack of science behind it and also further concerns stemming from our Christian beliefs.
Our S15 is young but very sharp. I'm sure MIL tried to teach it to him as well. He just poured scorn over it (privately, to me). Further, S15 has mild autism and sees a child psychologist regularly. I asked her about EFT and she told me it has no basis and no merit beyond a possible placebo effect. She thought it was dangerous as people would use it instead of real methods of dealing with their problems, with varying consequences (not getting real help, deciding their problems relate to something else and going off track, deciding the situation is incapable of improvement, etc).
Wikipedia has an entry on it here:
EFT which states it is generally considered pseudoscientific, with no real merit.
MIL also gave my W a book written by a lady who had been molested as a child and then had cervical cancer in later life. The lady decided the two events were connected (her mental anguish focusing on that part of her body creating the disease in that area). She therefore wrote a book explaining how every emotional and mental anguish manifests as physical sickness. My W was suffering from a cold (it was winter!) and showed me that the book said it was because I was making her miserable! Good luck to me trying to counter that one!
Texan, a few things. Not sure why the read was so tough. Again the author insists the LBH really get tough in order to have a chance at R. Very Sandi like in that advice. Anyway, I won't belabor this but surprised you found it that difficult
What was so hard was that it made it all seem like 100% biology. That she just wasn't made to be monogamous and there was nothing I could do to fight it. It made me feel that by trying to keep her in the M was like forcing her to be something that she isn't. It made me feel like I was being cruel to try and make this work and that I should just let her go.
As far as the touching, google "touch charges". It is something I employed in my sitch. One word of advice, they need to be subtle. Like lightly touching her lower back as you have to squeeze behind her in the kitchen. Stuff like that. While you're there look into "talk charges" too. They are also a way to start reconnecting subtlety.
I did find a site that went over what those were and gave 50 examples. It seems I have already been doing some of them, but I will try a few more. Thanks for giving me the correct term to search for.
As far as the finding someone new. Yep, had same urges. "I am a good looking guy, in shape unlike most guys my age, and make good money! This is my chance at a new start!" But the problem with this approach is that without taking the time to learn and grow you will look back in 5 years and realize you got yourself into the same kind of situation with someone new! Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Plus there is the moral side too. A wring doesn't make a right. If you are going to leave your W do it because you can't trust her again and for what she did. LBSs that wait until they find someone new and then pull the plug with their cheating spouse are just as guilty of cheating themselves! Do it right, D your W, and then after you've had time on your own to deal with everything, go find someone new. Otherwise you're trying to put a bandaid on a severed limb, and that never works.
Yeah that is the petty, vindictive part of me talking. I don't intend on doing it that way. Not just for moral reasons though (although that IS part of it), but there are also financial considerations. Right now she is the one that had the A and it gives me grounds to deny any request for alimony she may try to make. If I also cheated then it gives her more power if it does come to divorce. Of course I also don't want to feel like I am using someone else to have revenge sex with either. That isn't fair to them.
My MIL is a practitioner of EFT and apparently teaches it to others. She wanted my W to do it. As far as I recall it has two aspects to it, one is the tapping (physically tapping on acupuncture reflex points), along with a talking part (which is a positive reinforcement or build yourself up/throw off negatives type thing). I recall looking into it at the time (over two years ago now, so I'm a bit vague on the specifics) and having concerns as to the lack of science behind it and also further concerns stemming from our Christian beliefs.
Our S15 is young but very sharp. I'm sure MIL tried to teach it to him as well. He just poured scorn over it (privately, to me). Further, S15 has mild autism and sees a child psychologist regularly. I asked her about EFT and she told me it has no basis and no merit beyond a possible placebo effect. She thought it was dangerous as people would use it instead of real methods of dealing with their problems, with varying consequences (not getting real help, deciding their problems relate to something else and going off track, deciding the situation is incapable of improvement, etc).
Wikipedia has an entry on it here:
EFT which states it is generally considered pseudoscientific, with no real merit.
Thanks Joe. That was about what I figured after watching one of the introductory videos but glad to have more confirmation.
MIL also gave my W a book written by a lady who had been molested as a child and then had cervical cancer in later life. The lady decided the two events were connected (her mental anguish focusing on that part of her body creating the disease in that area). She therefore wrote a book explaining how every emotional and mental anguish manifests as physical sickness. My W was suffering from a cold (it was winter!) and showed me that the book said it was because I was making her miserable! Good luck to me trying to counter that one!
Honestly man, if your W is that gullible, maybe you could convince her that there is some alien/government conspiracy to keep you and your W apart and that if she gives in and sees other people instead of staying with you then she is letting "THEM" win.
"Come on babe, you have to fight against the mind control technology they are using to drive us apart. We can't let THEM win."
So I forgot to mention that in our MC session on Friday, the W told the MC that the OM had basically discarded her abandoning their "friendship" and that she was upset b/c even though the EA was over she wanted to go back to being friends like they were prior to the EA. The MC asked me how that made me feel. "I have no opinion or feelings about it.", I answered. The MC, was like "Come on, you have to have some feelings about it." I said, "There are only two possible outcomes here. We either stay together or we get a divorce. I have already accepted both outcomes and I know I will be fine either way. So I really don't have any feelings on this." The MC asked the W how that made her feel and she said, "That stings".
My GAL'ing isn't going as well as I had hoped. I have started working on my personal projects around the house. Cleaning in the garage to prep for my wood shop, finished priming the foot locker for painting, etc. Using that time for me and to avoid/ignore the W. However the going OUT part isn't going so well. I have been going out on Friday's and/or Saturday's to places that used to be packed and they all look like ghost towns now. It's like everyone is still terrified of C19. Last night I ended up at a bar and while it wasn't completely dead, there were only 2 large groups each occupying a large table area, and 3 younger couples all sitting separately on obvious dates. This bar has dart boards, I was hoping to find some people playing that I could ask to join but no one was. I ended up drinking only 1 beer while watching ESPN on one of their TV's then going out to my car and listening to an audio book for a while.
How are other people getting out and making new friends in the middle of this C19 mess? Seriously looking for tips b/c what I'm doing isn't working.
One other thing to note. Last night as I was getting ready to go out and the W was getting ready for bed, she point blank asked me if I was planning on meeting some new woman and having a "revenge affair". I froze for a second contemplating all possible answers. I knew if I said "yes", "maybe", or even "probably not" that that would be essentially telling her we are now in an open M which I absolutely do not want. I also knew that giving a firm "no" would take away most of the "mystery" and "worry" of me trying to GAL without her. I didn't want to give any answer, but I ended up going with the "no" to prevent ending up in an unwanted open M. I told her "I take my vows seriously so you don't have to worry about that". She said "Ouch", indicating that she took that as a dig at her her. I told her it wasn't a dig at her. It was just a way to let her know I was not looking for a replacement for her, yet. Then she kissed me goodnight and I left.
How are other people getting out and making new friends in the middle of this C19 mess? Seriously looking for tips b/c what I'm doing isn't working.
I don't have an answer for you, but I am in the same spot from Covid. Most everything is still closed up or empty here. I have gotten to spend some time with family but getting out like that isn't an option yet. I have also kept busy with projects around the house and riding my motorcycle. But I have been looking for other options to get out also.
I told her "I take my vows seriously so you don't have to worry about that". She said "Ouch", indicating that she took that as a dig at her her. I told her it wasn't a dig at her. It was just a way to let her know I was not looking for a replacement for her, yet.
While I get what you mean here and the tough place this is for you. Hopefully she does have regret and an "ouch" there. She had an A. She completely broke her vows. So it seems normal that she would be sensitive to that.
Honestly man, if your W is that gullible
My W is really sharp; not just intelligent (which she is), but full of good practical common sense. It makes things like buying into the book I mentioned seem so out of place. I think it all comes back to the point that the WW/WAW will see everything as the fault of the LBS, and keep looking for 'evidence' to support that position.
Texan, the firm no was the right approach. Stay true to your core values.
TheTexan, I also believe you chose wisely saying "No". Props for your clear thinking on-the-fly!
Thanks guys, it helps knowing I chose wisely.
My W is still very confusing. The W, D20, and I spent some time together yesterday and went out to dinner. Several times throughout the day, the W was talking about long term future plans together, and referring to us together using her chosen grandparent names (Loli and Pop). Every time she did I kind of just stared at her blankly, b/c what was going on in my head was "You crazy B, you are about 3 inches from being divorced and kicked out and you are making 3-5 year plans?"
I also feel like our positive interactions are still mimicking to a large degree our pre-BD behaviors (we really aren't fighting or arguing any more with 180's). For instance her still kissing me goodnight and saying ILU. I was thinking that I might ask her to stop kissing me and saying ILU until she can do so and actually mean it. It feels weird b/c now I feel like it's a lie and she is faking it. It might also give me some sort of barometer to know when she is coming around. Would that be a bad idea or a good one?
Do not take actions like that with expectations. Take the kisses and ILUs for what they are. You are overly attaching meaning to them. Do you think it will help or hurt your sitch to ask her to stop? Also, I see a hidden agenda in it: until she can do so and actually mean it.
First, you don't know that she doesn't actually mean it. You are surmising that based on how you feel. Second, that is not something you could ever be sure about. Say you say that, and she continues because she claims "she really means it". Do you trust that yet? Of course not.
Texan I am detecting some Nice Guy Syndrome tendencies from you. You might want to pick up the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. At least google what Nice Guy Syndrome is.
Remember, doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing. We like to say around here that doing nothing IS doing something. So when you feel you need to take action, default to DOING nothing.
We also say: When she wants to come back (recommit to the MR) you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused. Give her some time. Let her figure things out.
Detach. Believe nothing she says. Time will tell.
Things aren't going "back to normal" anytime soon. Just be cool and work on you.
I wouldn't tell her to stop the kisses and ILY's because those are good IMO, simple as that. If she says and does it enough she will and does mean it.
Just hang tight my man!
Do not take actions like that with expectations. Take the kisses and ILUs for what they are. You are overly attaching meaning to them. Do you think it will help or hurt your sitch to ask her to stop? Also, I see a hidden agenda in it: until she can do so and actually mean it.
First, you don't know that she doesn't actually mean it. You are surmising that based on how you feel. Second, that is not something you could ever be sure about. Say you say that, and she continues because she claims "she really means it". Do you trust that yet? Of course not.
I wouldn't be doing it with expectations. I just feel like everything still feels the same, and if nothing is changing we aren't growing and nothing will get better. I feel like SOMETHING between us has to change. As it is now she is back to interacting EXACTLY as if nothing is different and the last 30 days never happened. I will take your advice though and leave it alone.
Texan I am detecting some Nice Guy Syndrome tendencies from you. You might want to pick up the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. At least google what Nice Guy Syndrome is.
I did read about it and even bought the book. After reading the description it doesn't sound like me at all. I am not one to walk on eggshells trying to avoid confrontation. I have been known to tap dance on land mines. In fact I often feel like I can be too, opinionated, and maybe too dominating or willful. I am not going to eat at a restaurant that I don't want to just to please someone else. I believe everyone should be contributing to the household, and if someone isn't and they are capable, then there IS going to be an argument. That said, I did buy the book and will give it a read, maybe there are some things I can learn from it.
Remember, doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing. We like to say around here that doing nothing IS doing something. So when you feel you need to take action, default to DOING nothing.
We also say: When she wants to come back (recommit to the MR) you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused. Give her some time. Let her figure things out.
I hear you. This is why I posted. I need to hear these things. I know I am not being patient, I know I am wanting things to change so bad that I don't even care if it changes for the better or the worse, as long as it changes. I know you like to say we have to get to the point that if we caught our wife in an orgy it wouldn't make us mad. If that happened to me I would be relieved. I would view it as a "Get out of sh***y M Free" card. Make no mistake, I love my wife, but I do NOT want my OLD wife/marriage/life/relationship back. I want a new one, if it's with the same woman great, if it requires a new woman great, but what I had was not good and this feeling of slipping back into the old routines is the opposite of where I want to go. I am not sure if that makes sense or if it is a typical response but that is how I feel.
Hi TheTexan, I would NOT ask her to stop making 3-5yr plans, kissing you, and saying ILU. These are all positive steps towards reconciliation. It sounds like you're NOT in the same place as her--maybe unprocessed anger, maybe unsure that you want reconciliation. That's something you need to work out on your own.
About last night.
D20 had a friend over for dinner. After dinner the friend went out for a smoke and D20 joined her to chat. I asked W "So fam what are we going to do tonight", expecting the usual answer of "Let's just watch a show" or even the rare "Let's play a game". What I got was, that if the D20 left with the friend then the W wanted sex. Then she came and laid down next to me in my huge living room chair and put her head on my chest. She laid there and we conversed about mundane things until the friend left and D20 did not (About 30 min or so). At that point W said, "Maybe we can try again tomorrow" and got up moved to her normal seat and asked to watch TV. I don't have my hopes up for it to happen tonight. She has many times in the past, been "in the mood" one day and a cold fish the next. We shall see what happens tonight.
Now, I am sure most people reading this may be thinking the W wanting sex is a good sign that maybe she is coming around, that she may be feeling more attracted to me or "in love" with me. I wish, but I am not so gullible. As I mentioned before we have been to the point of having sex once maybe twice per year for nearly a decade and even before that was only about 4x per year. However in the 30 days leading up to the BD we had sex probably at least 15 times if not more. Which means she was getting turned on by the OM or by thinking about the OM and then using me as a human dildo. In other words my W doesn't need to be attracted to me or "in love" with me in order to want and actively seek sex from me. I will also mention that she did make a comment yesterday afternoon that I have been making a lot of changes very fast, so she is paying attention. Maybe the changes I have been making are working.
This is why I think my sitch is likely more difficult to figure out where I am than most that I read about. In most cases the WW/WAW is getting sex outside the marriage or is really walking away, so the sex drops to 0 for the LBH and when she wants it from the LBH again it's usually a good sign. For me the sex didn't drop to 0. Instead, it hit all time highs at the height of the EA/PA. So I find myself asking, is her wanting sex her trying to reconcile, is it her trying to keep me from D'ing her, is it her signaling the EA/PA is back on, or is it just a random bit of her being horny and I am just the nearest human dildo?
Regardless of the answer, I will not be turning it down. I am also not going to be attaching any significance or meaning to it, I am just going along for the ride and enjoyment.
Oh still looking for any tips/advice anyone has on how to GAL in a time of C19.
Oh still looking for any tips/advice anyone has on how to GAL in a time of C19.
Where there is a will, there is a way. I'm headed to the gun range tonight with a buddy.
Hi Texan, new workout routine, conquering acrophobia, taking an online course, gardening, back to back road trips to otter states, playing a video game with my son, organizing an event for a large group. None of these involve as much interaction with other humans as I prefer, especially face to face, but them’s the breaks with COVID.
Workout, run, fish, read in the park, walk the dog, build something, clean something, organize something, go for a drive, join a group or club, sit at the coffee shop. There's a million ways if you have the eyes for it.
Where there is a will, there is a way. I'm headed to the gun range tonight with a buddy.
I do enjoy going to the gun range as much as possible, but that is also a fav of the W so she goes every time I go. I would have to actually be intentionally mean to go without her. She has been hooked ever since I bought her a Bersa .38 for our first anniversary. In fact she has been asking me to buy us "some new toys". If I thought it would actually help our R I would do that in a heartbeat. I mean who doesn't want more toys, am I right?
Hi Texan, new workout routine, conquering acrophobia, taking an online course, gardening, back to back road trips to otter states, playing a video game with my son, organizing an event for a large group. None of these involve as much interaction with other humans as I prefer, especially face to face, but them’s the breaks with COVID.
Yeah this C19 stuff is the pits. I have ways to stay busy at home, what I need is NEW friends. New MALE friends.
Well, the W was still in the mood last night so we did have sex after all. However, before hand she asked if we should do it considering what we were going through? I asked her what she meant, and she point blank told me that this did not mean she was ILWM or attracted to me, that it was just a need she needed to be filled. "So basically the same as the last I don't know how many years?", I asked. She nodded. I said that's fine, I didn't expect anything to get turned around in just a few weeks anyway. She then mentioned that she didn't feel she was getting much from our MC(person). I agreed and said that I felt like I was doing more of the counseling, since I was the one pushing for us to create goals such as "Do at least 1 thing each week to make you happy". She agreed. I don't recall her exact words but she mentioned all the changes I had been making. I said that was because we both had to be in charge of our own happiness and that until we were both happy with ourselves then we would not be able to fix our marriage nor truly be happy with anyone else. I said that if we got divorced right now and jumped into new R's we would just end up in the same boat within a couple of years. So I was focusing on making myself happy and that if she decided to join me great, but if not, then I was going to make sure I was ready for my NEXT R, whomever that may be with. She said that hurt to hear, but she understood where I was coming from. She then changed the subject to a new diet tracking app on her phone that she demoed for me. Then we used each other for sex, just as we have apparently done for years.
Well, the W was still in the mood last night so we did have sex after all. However, before hand she asked if we should do it considering what we were going through? I asked her what she meant, and she point blank told me that this did not mean she was ILWM or attracted to me, that it was just a need she needed to be filled. "So basically the same as the last I don't know how many years?", I asked. She nodded. I said that's fine, I didn't expect anything to get turned around in just a few weeks anyway. She then mentioned that she didn't feel she was getting much from our MC(person). I agreed and said that I felt like I was doing more of the counseling, since I was the one pushing for us to create goals such as "Do at least 1 thing each week to make you happy". She agreed. I don't recall her exact words but she mentioned all the changes I had been making. I said that was because we both had to be in charge of our own happiness and that until we were both happy with ourselves then we would not be able to fix our marriage nor truly be happy with anyone else. I said that if we got divorced right now and jumped into new R's we would just end up in the same boat within a couple of years. So I was focusing on making myself happy and that if she decided to join me great, but if not, then I was going to make sure I was ready for my NEXT R, whomever that may be with. She said that hurt to hear, but she understood where I was coming from. She then changed the subject to a new diet tracking app on her phone that she demoed for me. Then we used each other for sex, just as we have apparently done for years.
The Texan, this really reminds me of when my W was finally over her EA. She started wanting sex. Apparently the sexual reawakening that had led to her EA (and on the prowl for a second one as she was a WW), she started initiating with me under the guise that this did not mean we were staying together, nor that her feelings had changed. I told you that she also requested no kissing, especially open-mouthed, french kissing. She went through a period of several weeks where she was initiating daily, sometimes multiple times a day.
What I would like to point out to you, that while her intent is just sex, touch is an extremely powerful thing. My W just wanted sex. And in absence of an OM she settled for me. But after a few weeks of lots of sex, she couldn't help but feel a connection. Sex for women, whether they want it to or not, invokes an emotional response. It is the same concept behind touch charges. Touching, even mechanically at first, builds closeness. It is almost subliminal. But it does. So if you can have sex with her without getting your hopes up and placing expectations on it, I encourage it.
By the way, do not underestimate the power of the talk charges too. Women love to be engaged verbally. And when she is talking active listening. I think your sitch is in a great place, and if you start doing a few things to reestablish connection, then you will be able to turn this around.
So have sex with her (just realize that at the beginning it doesn't mean anything).
Keep up the touch charges.
And make sure you are doing the talk charges. Fun little things to share with her that are light, fun, interesting.
You got this man! I like where things are heading. Just make sure to keep GAL, working on yourself, and continue to differentiate yourself so you are a whole, healthy person outside of your MR.
Wow, I think that is the best thing I have heard since this mess started. I definitely plan on keeping up what is working and keeping up with touch and talk charges. While I am still not 100% sure I can trust her or even want to trust her, I have come to realize that I now understand better what behaviors are indicators of her starting to stray. So I am coming around a little more toward there being a future "us" as long as I can stay awake and observant for those behaviors to ever manifest again. Anyway you have added some hope and brightened my day. Thanks Steve85
The last few days have been pretty uneventful but here is a basic run down:
Fri: Celebrated Father's Day early since W would be at work on Sun. Wife gt be some grilling stuff and 2 books for us to read together. What she wrote in the card from her was bland and insincere though. "I want you to know that you are appreciated and loved". Yeah, right.
Sat: Wife worked and I went and helped BiL move. That evening we watched some TV and had a bit of good conversation.
Sun: Wife worked. Step-D20 and I went to a friends house for a FD feast. It was a fun time. When We got home W and I talked a bit before she went to bed.
Mon: W napped most of the day while I worked. In the evening we went for about a 30 min bike ride together. That was kind of nice and something we have never done before. After dinner we talked a bit, watched a show and she went to bed.
W is getting close to finishing Book 1 of the 2 books that Steve85 suggested. She has made comments about how she sees herself in that book and feels somewhat justified in her feelings now. She has also confirmed a couple of times that she doesn't want our marriage to end over this. I keep thinking "Of course you don't, who wouldn't want to have their cake and eat it too?" My actual response, when she brings this up, is that we need to postpone any conversation about that until she has completed book 2.
What she wrote in the card from her was bland and insincere though. "I want you to know that you are appreciated and loved". Yeah, right.
This statement you made is rife with expectations and full of attachment. You can choose to be grateful that she got a card b/c there are a lot of dads who don't get a card. There was a dad in Chicago on Sunday whose 3 year old was shot and killed in the back seat of his car. Think of how good you have it... Detach and see things clearly.
W is getting close to finishing Book 1 of the 2 books that Steve85 suggested. She has made comments about how she sees herself in that book and feels somewhat justified in her feelings now. She has also confirmed a couple of times that she doesn't want our marriage to end over this. I keep thinking "Of course you don't, who wouldn't want to have their cake and eat it too?" My actual response, when she brings this up, is that we need to postpone any conversation about that until she has completed book 2.
I would advise more detachment, take things slow, give her time to make her mind up. Start to focus on you and being the best guy you can be. Right now, given her betrayal, she is bringing out the worst parts of you unfortunately.
Keep working and good luck.
Ok guys quick update.Since my last post things have been going fairly smoothly. I have put my foot in my mouth a time or two for some minor setbacks but nothing major or recurring. Otherwise not much to report.
Right now my BIGGEST problem is GAL. We are back under stay at home orders, and all bars and non-essential places are closed, and restaurants are reduced to 50% capacity. So like the only place I have to go GAL at is the grocery store or Wal-Mart. I keep asking myself WHY couldn't she have done this S**t last year. Even worse I just found out my SiL has tested C19+ and I was around her 8 days ago and she hugged me, so now I may be infected. It's been 8 days, so I might be in the clear, but not sure. So our/her whole family is self-quarantining. So we can't even do anything for the 4th of July this weekend. I feel like I am trying to GAL in a prison, in near solitary-confinement, and my only companion is the one person I am supposed to be distancing from.
I don't even know what the hell I can do. Any ideas, suggestions, advice here is appreciated.
On a side-note, I did finish my footlocker project, well mostly. It's done but I am thinking about adding some legs to it, to make it a bit taller. More like a normal chair height so it can be used as a bench with storage under the seat. My next project is sanding down and re-staining a crib for my D20's baby due in Sept.
Work in and clean the garage.
Basement? Clean it.
Get your own space (man cave, bedroom etc) and watch movies by yourself.
Read books. Lots of them. I love to read on a device. Plus you can instantly download them so no waiting for shipping.
Any outside projects you need to do? Do them.
Fix things that are broken.
Clean out the attic.
Yardwork.
Work out.
Climb a tree! (I am serious.)
Where there is a will....there is a way!
Yeah those are the kinds of things I have been doing, it just doesn't FEEL like GAL I guess. Maybe I'm doing better than I thought. I really want to get out and meet new people, make new friends, etc. Unfortunately, meeting new people when everyone acts like everyone else has "cooties" and everything is closed down, just isn't going to work and I get that.
I have to keep telling myself to "be still" to avoid going stir crazy. I tell myself that a LOT. I find doing that helps both when feeling stir crazy from being couped up, and when dealing with the W or even when I start to think/spin about the R. "Be still".
I have even considered getting a Bumble account, just to find other people to have a conversation with other than my W and Step-D. The thing is, when I was secure in my R I never felt like I needed any other people in my life, now I find that is what I crave the most.
OK a strange new update. Last night my W worked an afternoon shift to cover for someone that was off. She stayed after work talking to OM, and came home wanting to talk about the R. Her and the OM didn't talk about them, they apparently talked about us. Supposedly he "called her on her BS", told her she was "being an A-hole" to me, and that she needed to let go of the past and move on to build something new with me. In other words the OM seems to be trying to help save MY M.
So my W tells me all of this, says that is exactly what she wants to do, but has no idea of how to let go of the past hurts and issues. She says she doesn't know how to forgive and forget. She understands that we can't move forward as long as she is holding on to the past but she just can't let go either. I told her, that I did it through prayer and imagining that I was holding all of that in my hand and I just let go. I also said that may not work for her, and she may need to seek IC or look for idea on the internet. I also said that I had been enjoying the extra time we had been spending together, and that maybe if we just kept doing that in time, the rest would come naturally. The whole conversation lasted about 2 hours with a few interruptions, but that was the gist of it.
I had no idea what else to say. On one hand I am a bit optimistic, b/c this was the most she ever admitted that she really did want this to work, but also disheartened a bit b/c I also know that if she can't find a way to let go of the past, then nothing we do will ever move us forward.
Listen and validate, keep your cards close to your chest. She's not back in this. Don't believe her words.
When she says
She says she doesn't know how to forgive and forget.
You should say: "Wow, that sounds really hard for you". That would show her that you were listening.
I have even considered getting a Bumble account, just to find other people to have a conversation with other than my W and Step-D. The thing is, when I was secure in my R I never felt like I needed any other people in my life, now I find that is what I crave the most.
So file for divorce, get a divorce, and then chat with women on Bumble. Don't cheat to cover up your insecurities.
Hi Texan.
W has resumed contact with OM?
Reset DB counter. Time to get boundaries in place (those are for yourself)
Believe nothing that she says...
So file for divorce, get a divorce, and then chat with women on Bumble. Don't cheat to cover up your insecurities.
You misunderstand. I did end up creating an account, in "BFF" only mode. Which only connects me to other MEN who are looking for guys to do guy things with. I am NOT using it to find women to do date/sex things with.
Hi Texan.
W has resumed contact with OM?
Reset DB counter. Time to get boundaries in place (those are for yourself)
Believe nothing that she says...
She has no choice, he is a co-worker. Having zero contact with him would require her to quit her job.
So file for divorce, get a divorce, and then chat with women on Bumble. Don't cheat to cover up your insecurities.
You misunderstand. I did end up creating an account, in "BFF" only mode. Which only connects me to other MEN who are looking for guys to do guy things with. I am NOT using it to find women to do date/sex things with.
Hi Texan.
W has resumed contact with OM?
Reset DB counter. Time to get boundaries in place (those are for yourself)
Believe nothing that she says...
She has no choice, he is a co-worker. Having zero contact with him would require her to quit her job.
Maybe that's what needs to happen.
You deserve someone that is willing to move mountains to be with you. Find a new job. Go to IC to work through past hurts. The more hurdles you give her the more you'll see her commitment to working on things.
So what does R look like to you?
So file for divorce, get a divorce, and then chat with women on Bumble. Don't cheat to cover up your insecurities.
You misunderstand. I did end up creating an account, in "BFF" only mode. Which only connects me to other MEN who are looking for guys to do guy things with. I am NOT using it to find women to do date/sex things with.
Gotcha. Never heard of that. It's a GAL tool then?
Hi Texan.
W has resumed contact with OM?
Reset DB counter. Time to get boundaries in place (those are for yourself)
Believe nothing that she says...
She has no choice, he is a co-worker. Having zero contact with him would require her to quit her job.
We all have a choice. People who have affairs and want to work on their marriage quit their jobs if they must. That's what Neffer is saying. And that's why Neffer is saying to protect yourself, this WW of yours is still talking to OM and that is not good.
If you in any way want a future with you M OM has to go. 100%
How that happens isnt relevant but they sure cant be co-workers no more.
If she is talking to you about this just because OM said so I would be EXTREMLEY cautious.
Maybe that's what needs to happen.
You deserve someone that is willing to move mountains to be with you. Find a new job. Go to IC to work through past hurts. The more hurdles you give her the more you'll see her commitment to working on things.
So what does R look like to you?
Perhaps, but I am not going to ask for her to quit her job, if she decides to that is her choice. I am distancing from that and letting her have the room to be her.
Are you asking what the R looks like to me now or the future R that I want?
Gotcha. Never heard of that. It's a GAL tool then?
Exactly. Bumble has 3 modes. Dating mode for obvious reasons. BFF mode for finding people of the same sex as pure friends to hang out with. Finally, Bizz mode is more like LinkedIn in that is for professional networking. I am using it in BFF mode only.
We all have a choice. People who have affairs and want to work on their marriage quit their jobs if they must. That's what Neffer is saying. And that's why Neffer is saying to protect yourself, this WW of yours is still talking to OM and that is not good.
So I should force her to quit her job? How is that not pressuring and pursuing? I cannot imagine handing down an ultimatum like that would go over too well. Again I have made my peace with divorce being the outcome if it comes to that. So she either fixes her s**t or she doesn't and I leave. I haven't decided what it is yet, but there is a time limit on my patience waiting on her to get over the past and be ready to start moving forward. My current thinking is probably by early Nov, but maybe first of the year. After that, we are either on the same path moving forward toward reconciliation or I'm out. I will be 47 in a bit over a month, and I'm not wasting too much time on someone that may never come back to me. If I have to start over, I want to get started well before I turn 50. I have point blank told the W this too.
This thread is nearly full so I started a new thread, please post any new responses here:
No longer lost, but not out of the woods. Part 2