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Through The Storm IIIHey DB friends. I haven't been on the boards in a long while. I took some time off from all online activities (the board, social media, etc) just to live in the moment for a bit. Quick update for everyone here. W and I have reconciled and are currently piecing. We have been living together since the end of March and W officially asked me to move in shortly after. NC with AP since that time as well. It's not been an easy road thus far, but we are working through it together. W had gotten to a point of exhaustion with AP. She felt like her AP wanted more from her than she was willing to give.
Piecing is hard work, but we're slowly moving forward together. I still get rather emotional sometimes when we have hard conversations, and she is feeling a lot of shame and dealing with a broken heart. The desire and attraction is not there for her yet but she says she trusts that given time it will come back. There have been a couple of times we have gotten into minor tense moments. Usually, I'll be trying to clean something a certain way or do something and she will snap at me. I'll snap back and things get tense and awkward for a few minutes. I'm still working on controlling myself during those times. It's hard not to want to say hurtful things when we're both snippy (thankfully I haven't). I did lose my cool once during a R talk where I told her it would mean a lot to helping me heal if she would start to get rid of all of the little gifts and such from AP that are still around the house. She responded with "I left her and I'm with you, that should be enough". I snapped back pretty harshly asking if she "wanted a cookie for not sleeping with her girlfriend". Not my best move - but that rush of anger is so hard to push down sometimes.
Anyways, long story short we are doing well and pushing forward. I haven't caught up on everyone's sitch but I sincerely hope you are all doing well. May, I can't wait to read and see how you and H are getting along during quarantine. Yail, end of another semester right? U, I hope you're hanging in there bud and that you and your kiddo are well. IW, are you and waw still living together? I can't wait to get a few minutes and check in with everyone.
All my best,
KG
KG! I was wondering how you were doing in this mess. Sounds like things are mostly positive. Glad you're doing well.
Kristin!!! So glad to hear from you and how things are going. I see a lot of similarities in our sitches right now, except that my H doesn't want to talk about the A (he asked that we wait until we're out of quarantine, though when we decided that we thought we'd be done at the end of April and here we are in the middle of May with no meaningful end in sight!).
That "I'm here, that should be enough" was definitely a hallmark of my H's attitude in all of this back when he first broke it off with AP and for some time afterwards. I haven't heard it for a pretty long time now. I also dealt with a lot of my own anger that has cooled quite a bit as well. I just took a look at my thread from when we were 6-ish weeks out from him going NC with AP, and I was dealing with a lot of the same feelings you are now, and seeing similar behaviors from my H. I think your W is probably mourning the loss of the R with her AP.
If my H had gifts or mementos around the house of AP, I'd have a really hard time with that too. I guess that by keeping them out in the open, you can measure the progress she's making by when she decides to toss them (rather than her keeping them as a secret). We had a similar issue with a Spotify playlist he'd shared with AP that he has finally deleted, and I ended up being glad that I hadn't forced the issue earlier on when he wasn't ready.
Anyway, if our sitches follow the same general pattern, I would offer that now three full months (WOW) since my H broke off the A and went NC with AP, I have seen significant improvement in all those areas you're dealing with now. We aren't to where I want to be yet and I'm still working on patience and focusing on what I can control (me), but I definitely do think that time after NC with the AP does really help.
W had gotten to a point of exhaustion with AP. She felt like her AP wanted more from her than she was willing to give.
That doesn't seem like the best thing really.
Why is her heart broken? Shouldn't she be happy that she got you back?
I told her it would mean a lot to helping me heal if she would start to get rid of all of the little gifts and such from AP that are still around the house. She responded with "I left her and I'm with you, that should be enough"
I don't think you should tolerate anything like this. Throw that @#$% out! If it hurts your W's feelings so bad then she can leave but why would you subject yourself to these reminders of their affair?
I snapped back pretty harshly asking if she "wanted a cookie for not sleeping with her girlfriend". Not my best move - but that rush of anger is so hard to push down sometimes.
Not your worst either, and a fair question.
I would go very slowly KG. And keep those expectations low on this. Who knows where her head really is. I hope you are still working on you, still doing some GAL, still growing.
Im no expert so I wont comment on weather or not there are issues but I just want to say as someone newer here that seeing someone at least have progress really helps calm my heart. Maybe there is hope in this world after all. Congrats on the happy moments and progress.
Update and Thoughts:
Ww and I began reconciliation attempt in April of this year. She cut contact with AP, asked me to move in, and said that she had to make a decision and felt there would be less regret if she chose me. That if she had chosen AP, she felt that she would feel far more regret about losing me. I don't think either one of us were fully prepared. Our communication improved and we were working toward healing together.
In June, we had an opportunity to buy her childhood home at a great deal with a gift of equity. The decision made sense for us and what our dreams of future would be. We bought the house. At this point, all my chips are on the table. We spent almost all of the money we had saved on renovations and I thought I finally saw light at the end of the tunnel. Moving through it together felt good.
Towards the end of July, AP made contact to let Ww know that she had gotten a job at the same company and didn't want any awkward interactions if they were to bump into one another. This allowed the door to swing wide open. Ww showed me the message and said that she had responded. They started talking frequently (just as friends... barf). I told ww how it was hurtful that they were still in communication and asked that she stop. She refused and said that was not an option and that they aren't going to be together and AP wanted nothing to do with her in that way. Things have only become worse since. They now talk all day, every day. Work chat, texting, and more I'm sure. I don't think they have physically spent any time together, although I don't know for 100%.
Sometime in early September, ww moved into the guest bedroom and said that she wanted space. At first, she said we would exhaust all options before divorcing (therapy included). I made an appointment and now she is saying that she doesn't think it will change anything and we should start talking about divorce.
She says these things, and yet her actions are still wanting to spend our time together, cuddle, plan fun outings, etc. MY actions have been to try and completely distance myself from her rollercoaster. I don't initiate any form of physical touch, I don't assume anything. I have tried to be really ok with just enjoying my own company and having the whole bed to myself (although I hate it lol). I don't regret buying the house and trying to make our marriage work. I think I needed to try.
Now friends, I am at the point of a personal crossroad. I can continue (remaining somewhat emotionally grounded) to live as roommates and let ww live in her crazy cake-eating world. I can try to have patience and continue to improve myself. In the last couple of years, I have grown so much and finally feel like more of myself again. Currently, I am paying the majority of our financial obligations and she is using her paycheck to add to savings and pay off some of her personal debt (truck payment, separation purchases, etc). This doesn't bother me, but I also don't want to live in limbo forever.
I am to the point of not wanting to put my life on hold living in this pain any longer. Therefore, the other option is that I approach ww and let her know that I am taking charge of my life, that I plan to heal and move forward with divorce. The mortgage would be very difficult for her to afford on her own and I don't know that she would be able to refinance the loan into her name with her income. The other option is that I could buy her out of the mortgage. It was her childhood home and isn't going to be a fun discussion as it is a very emotional place for her.
After 2 years of personal agony, when I read through advice and taking a stand for yourself as a betrayed spouse, I understand on such a deep level. All of the 2X4s, all of the pushing people to let go and drop the rope, it resonates. I'm still worlds away from being detached, but I have desire for it which I never had. I want it. I would rather live alone and be happy in my heart, than suffer through this pain and allow someone to make me feel less than valuable. I don't ever want to give someone that control over my self worth again. I haven't quite gotten it back, but I'm moving foward.
Any advice and thoughts are appreciated. May, Yail, CW, & others - I know I haven't responded to your threads, but I've been here quietly watching. Sometimes getting involved made me start to cycle in a negative thought loop so I've stayed silent. I hope everyone is getting through the year and staying safe.
KG
KG,
As a fellow lesbian, I read through all of your posts in an effort to find common ground from someone in a similar sitch. My W as been involved in an EA with a coworker for over a year. She denies a PA and claims that they are just friends. Refused to give up her "friendship". We are now separated in-house, I got the ILYBANILWYA and don't want to be married anymore. I am working on detachment and trying to figure out what my next step should be. Leaning towards leaving next month.
As someone that is a bit older (50) and 21 years into my R, my best piece of advise is to make a solid decision based on your needs and wants. Is she loving you the way you want to be loved? Is she fulfilling your needs? Are you happy? If the answer is no to any of these questions then step away. I know it is easier said then done. I am still here as well. But the last thing in the world you want is to wake up 10 years from now and find yourself in the same sitch still hoping that it will improve. Days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months and months turn into years.
Oh, Kristin. (((Kristin)))
I've been thinking about you and wondering how things were going. I understand not wanting to post and get involved and what that can do to you mentally. (Wayfarer is taking a break for the same reason.)
I was reading back earlier in this thread and thinking of our timelines. I posted in mid-May that many of the same things you were struggling with six weeks into reconciliation were similar to where my H and I were at that same interval, and that three months in things seemed a lot better. Little did I know that three weeks later I'd get another BD after AP reached out. And it looks like you had a similar trajectory, things seeming a lot better, finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and feeling like you're maybe getting into piecing when AP reaches back out and everything falls apart again in month four. I'm sorry that I couldn't be there to support you through that but know I have been thinking of you all along.
(As an aside, maybe when we are both ready for this, it might be helpful for others if we looked at our sitches and others who had failed R attempts and see where the similarities might be in our spouses' behavior, compared to those who worked it out? Or in our own behavior? I know what vets will say is that we didn't make our Ss try hard enough to get back in, and that could be true. But I'm wondering if there are other signs to look for that could be helpful to others in the future.)
Are you in IC right now? I'm wondering if you've spent time thinking through your boundaries and how to protect yourself first and foremost. It feels so wrong and hurtful for your W to be openly communicating with AP. It really seems to me that you will never be able to have any sort of MR with your W with AP in the picture in any form, friends, contact at all, whatever. Sorry, you don't get to be BFFs with your AP afterwards. It just doesn't work that way.
KG, you sound strong. I think you will have no regrets if you move forward with D. You've done everything humanly possible to stand for your M and at some point you need to take a clear eyed look at your W and whether or not she is capable of being the W you need and deserve. She isn't, right now, and she hasn't been for a long time, though it sounds like you saw glimpses of that W during your reconciliation attempt. Can you erect strong enough boundaries to protect yourself and your hard-won path towards detachment if she remains in the house?
At least before, it seemed like she understood she had to pick one or the other, she couldn't keep cake-eating forever... but is her plan now that she can live in the guest room and cake eat for the rest of your lives together? I think there is a lot of hard introspection and healing and work that needs to take place in the WAS to have a chance at M2.0, and not everyone is capable of it. Maybe your W doesn't have that capacity. Maybe she just has never had enough motivation. But the way she is treating you now and has treated you over the course of all of this is really not OK, not how you treat someone that you love and respect and are MARRIED TO, FFS.
BTW, if your W loses her childhood home because you buy her out or you need to sell it in the D because neither of you can afford to buy the other out, that is on her, not on you. Please don't feel a speck of guilt about any of that.
My advice to you-- get legal counsel, even if you did prior to this, because the house is a big new asset that may complicate things. Understand your rights and work to unravel any remaining fear you have about D. Really look inward and focus on yourself and what you need, what your boundaries should be, how you can protect yourself no matter what happens going forward. And then take a good, hard look at your W, her behaviors, how she is treating you and if you want to continue living with her under the current circumstances. And whatever you decide, know that I support you and care about you.
xx M
KG, you sound good. As awful as this is you sound calm and rational. I'm so glad for you. It doesn't make it easy but perhaps it makes it easier.
I hope you find a path for you that you can move forward in. My only advice is this: do not bend yourself backwards to handle any discomfort your ww might feel regarding the house. Consider carefully what is best for you both emotionally and financially, and then advocate for/work towards that. Some things you may get, some you may not. But don't add to your own burden either emotionally or financially just to make it so she does not need to feel pain over her childhood home. That's not yours to carry.
One clarifying question: This savings that WW is able to make - is that in only her name, or is it joint? If it is in only her name I might suggest she start contributing to the household costs more now. Otherwise she's building a nest egg you may have no access to, while you carry an uneven load. If things are not contentious at home now it might be a good time to bring it up and suggest a portion she could contribute.
Because you're married, sure, you could fight for it in court if you end up that route. But honestly, I think the easiest way forward is to spend as little time fighting in court as possible. You can prep for that now in the event it comes to that point.
Hi KG -
I agree with Yail, you sound like you have evened out and are taking a pragmatic approach to all of this.
If you felt that you had to try, then you did what was best for you at the time. I know its frustrating, but the only way through is through. Now you know.
This thing with AP has to play out. Yes, it [censored]. But you don't have to be a part of that.
I think it would be best to stay out of WW's head. Detachment is possible - the best way to start is to just start. At first it is very counter to what you would think, but you will get the hang of it.
Remember that detachment is for you. Let WW deal with her chaos. Her actions with AP have shown where she wants to be. Those are her choices. And there will be consequences to those choices later.
Fortunately all you have to do to protect yourself is figure out how to remove yourself from that drama. You don't have to be mean or rude or fight. It is possible to be kind and compassionate and also firm.
Take care Kristin - stay strong
KG,
Is she loving you the way you want to be loved? Is she fulfilling your needs? Are you happy? If the answer is no to any of these questions then step away. I know it is easier said then done. I am still here as well. But the last thing in the world you want is to wake up 10 years from now and find yourself in the same sitch still hoping that it will improve. Days turn into weeks, weeks turn into months and months turn into years.
Nice to meet you Mar. I read through your sitch today and will respond soon with my thoughts/suggestions. I know how helpful it is to feel like you have someone that has similar life experiences (lgbtq) and I would love to be of some comfort. The answer to the first two questions is undoubtedly "no". I am happy with my life in general. I am very blessed and things could be far worse. I have relatively good health, a good job that I love, and a wonderful family. Things could be MUCH worse and, for that, I'm thankful. But is she loving me the way I want to be loved or fulfilling my needs in a partner? No.
BIG ((May))
I am sorry you've been through a crazy rollercoaster this whole year. Glad you are holding it together and doing things JUST for you. I love the idea of ordering takeout from a place that H doesn't usually like but is your fave. I am always very accommodating but I'm going to have to do that very soon. To answer your question, no, I'm not in IC. Due to COVID my IC is doing virtual only and I hate virtual meetings so I'm waiting it out. It's not terrible though because I really feel that I am in a much more stable place than when I was going.
It's funny May, I know the vets would say that we haven't made our WS work hard enough to get back in. They are absolutely correct. I don't know that I could or would change anything I've done in my journey and I really feel like I have been true to myself the entire time. BUT, I do think if I had walked away initially things *might* be different. At this moment in time, I am feeling like I want more for myself than a partner that doesn't know the value I bring to the table. This feeling is growing within my heart and I find myself day dreaming about a peaceful future without all the rejection. I am feeling more at peace with being alone than remaining with a WW that doesn't love me. I want her to find happiness and peace as well and I don't know if either one of us will ever find that in our marriage again. I don't want a D, but it's looking better than the alternative that we're currently living.
Hey Yail! I hear you're creating a travel buddy group - I'm in! And yes, the savings account is a joint account. I don't see her being unfair about the financial situation, but I also never expected to wake up one day and find our marriage here. It burns in my chest when I think about making the decision to D. She is, or was, the person I want to wake up with every day and share a life with. We've both changed so much since this all began, sometimes I don't recognize her and she feels like a stranger. In fact, that might be the most painful part about the current sitch. I don't know if we've been that distant since the start of everything and maybe I just couldn't see it because I was trying so hard to fix it? Either way, it stings that any interaction with the one I love feels cold when it used to be so warm and comforting.
KG
It's funny May, I know the vets would say that we haven't made our WS work hard enough to get back in. They are absolutely correct. I don't know that I could or would change anything I've done in my journey and I really feel like I have been true to myself the entire time.
Something I've noticed with the situations here is that the LBSs need to get to where they need to be authentically. Sometimes you need to have tried and tested every possible option before you're ready to take that next step. I totally believe this. I need to know in my soul that I'm doing the right thing if I opt for S or D. I also don't regret the choices I've made to date. I think it is so important to feel like you're being true to yourself-- in the end, that is what matters, not what anyone else thinks.
I'm glad you're feeling peace and stability within yourself. Hope you keep updating here at least every once in awhile!
((KG))
Working towards have a D discussion this week or next. I don't want this, but I also am tired of standing for someone who is treating me like garbage and the only way I can see to stop allowing the treatment is to S/D.
This is going to be a bit of a rant:
Ww had a bad mood this past weekend when we had several close friends over for a football game. I didn't say two words to her the whole evening and just hung out with other groups. I knew after everyone left she would initiate an R talk and, truthfully, I just didn't want to sit and hear ILYB cycles for an hour. I even told a few friends I was trying to head to bed before everyone leaves because of this. Of course, she caught me right as I was saying goodbye and goodnight and asked to talk for few. I listened and validated the best that I could. She tried to offer a compromise of S in which she would move into our old apartment (I still have it after buying the house). Her plan was that we would take turns living there and staying separated to work on ourselves. I told her I wasn't leaving the house and there would be no compromise unless she could make a commitment with transparency to end all contact with AP. She said that she could not and would not do that. I told her that the only offer would be for us to D given that she won't honor my feelings and that it is a boundary for me. I also said that she could move into the apartment with full S and still talk to AP all she wanted but that I would be moving forward and possibly filing for D. She asked what that would look like and I explained possible solutions for splitting up assets. She began to get angry/upset and I told her we could talk about all of this another day. I went to bed. WW started going through the house yelling about how I needed to be gone the next day and take all of my things, this is her house, this is her dog, this is her room, etc. She kept coming into the bedroom and saying terrible, hurtful things, and for a time I was able to remain calm and ask her to please leave me alone. She kept pushing and pushing and I couldn't control the emotions anymore. We got into a screaming argument and she continued the verbal assault, spewing any venom she could think of. It was awful. I said some hurtful things too and called her some choice names, selfish cheating &$*@ among them. She finally relented and left me alone. Early the next morning she crawled into the MRB and apologized trying to cuddle up to me. The apology was sincere and nice to hear and I didn't have the strength to kick her out. She asked that we not talk about things and just have a relaxing day.
I have not initiated a D discussion yet and am trying to wrap my head around how to approach things. I am so tired of allowing her to have her cake. I also know that I am comfortable on my own, in my own space. I also know that regardless of whether she wakes up and realizes what she is losing, I do not want to allow AP in my life anymore. I do not want a WS that would so such hurtful things and could act so selfishly. If that means that we aren't together anymore, that is ok with me. My feelings have/are shifting from not wanting to lose her, to simply wanting more for myself with or without her. If she isn't the one to give me those things, I am sure I will heal. I can have those things on my own and possibly, in the future, with someone who earns it and values who I am. Heck, it could even be her. But in order for that to happen, she needs to work on her own yard and I don't see that happening while we are still together. Something has to change. Just some thoughts for the day.
I feel strong and happy in this new perspective of taking control of my own healing and happiness. No more waiting for her to help me heal (which I think is what I had been waiting for). May, I think you are still waiting for H to help you heal, too. I see a lot of myself in you and your personality. We're ferocious and brave when it comes to choosing our family and trying to put the pieces back, but at some point, we have to let the one that broke it fix it. It's my choice and my decision to make and I will feel at peace with any outcome.
KG
Hi Kristin,
Hey there. I was glad to read your last few updates, because I've been wondering how you've been doing. I'm sorry the relationship hasn't improved. It's amazing how much patience and love you've shown her, even buying her childhood home, and it hasn't been enough for her to firmly choose one door or the other.
I'm glad you're finding the strength to end being treated this way, the strength to know you can be amazing on your own or with someone else. Such a long relationship--I get this isn't easy. It's easy in the abstract to say, "You shouldn't let yourself be treated that way", but so hard to let go of people we love.
KG, I'm so proud of you. No matter what hiccups you may encounter next, just remember this feeling of quiet confidence that you are portraying. You are absolutely correct that you deserve what is on the other side of this. Remember - you have a future that has NO AP in it!
I'm not going to lie - you're going to walk through a sh** storm with her. If she's screaming the second you took a bit of power for yourself it's not going to let up. Just keep looking forward and do exactly what you did last weekend: try your hardest to ignore when possible.
Please remember - do not make offers on how you can move forward until you speak with a lawyer. Please do so soon! It doesn't change your timeline or decisions, it only gives you information to ponder. That's all.
((((KG))) Time to get off this emotional Roller Coaster. It's what I keep telling myself.
Yail,
I agree with you entirely. Each time a D discussion has come up and I've stood my ground, she gets incredibly angry and emotional. I have informally spoken to a lawyer and I know that the best possible outcome is for us to figure out a peaceful resolution to the house. That is really the only major asset we own together. Everything else (debt, bank accounts, etc) don't amount to an excess. I don't think she would really want to hire an attorney to help with things because of the expense and partly because I have always handled any legal and all paperwork endeavors.
If you guys have any advice on how to start the convo with WW and initiate some form of peaceable negotiations that would be fantastic.
Right now, we live together mostly peacefully and (on the surface) treat each other as spouses. I am still trying to detach, but I'm having a hard time breaking off my wifely duties so to speak. I cook meals for us both and am still thoughtful and treat her as I always have. I have definitely gotten better about not initiating any form of touch or intimacy, but I don't push her away when she wants to cuddle either.
I'm nervous about the aftershock of this convo and what will happen to the dynamic in the home post discussion. Should I prepare to come home from work and spend my time in my bedroom and avoid her? Should I sit in the awkward tension of the living situation post discussion? I guess my wheels are just spinning because I know this is the right decision for me, but it is still so hard. I also hate that I'm having to be the one to pull the trigger.
My goals of the D discussion are to try and map out what we will do with the house and the living situation in the interim. I would love for her to get the house and buy me out. Do I offer to help her with this or tell her she has X days to apply for a refinance? I think it would be very difficult for her to be able to obtain financing. I could easily afford the house and would be approved. We could sell the house and split proceeds (after a huge tax) but it would put a strain on her mom as she still has an entire storage shed and a TON of things still in the house and on the property. Her mom wouldn't have anywhere to put these things at the moment. I would of course give her mom ample time to move them as opposed to a third party forcing her out immediately.
So many questions running through my head today and I'm just trying to prepare for what is to come.
KG
KG, my divorce was amicable, so I hope anything I have to say is helpful. It wasn't the same as your situation of course, so please take with a grain of salt.
Post-discussion: you do whatever you want. There is no "should". You live your life as normally as you can while still moving forward steadily.
*When you initiate the conversation do NO get drawn into an R talk. Sure, WW may be all over the map and not know what she wants and that can be valid. But you DO know what you want and that is just as valid. It's okay to remind her of this to keep her on track. "I understand it's a lot, but I do know this is the direction that I will be moving in".
*Be conscious of your needs vs wants. Don't cave to her to make it all "go away" but also don't hold on to things you really don't care much about. I think it's a big one for you to determine if you do or do not WANT the house. You seem ambivalent towards it. Will you feel stuck with it if you buy her out, or will it not bother you? It seems the best case is she can buy you out, because then she gets something very important to her and you can leave clean-slate.
*Instead of offering for her to buy you out, see what her first thoughts are. "Regarding the house, what are you wanting to do moving forward?" If she says she wants to buy you out that's great. But because it's her idea it will put her more at ease that she's getting something that she wants and you are amicable. This approach might calm the dragon. If she offers something you can't give, say so. "No, continuing to share living space and splitting costs won't work for me. I can't do this anymore. It will have to be only one of us or neither of us owning the house".
*Speaking of the house - you don't help her with this, and you don't get in her way. You don't do her legal or finance work. But, if you were to say, "If you would like to talk to ______(I dunno, someone at her bank)_____ let's give you the time to do that. What timeframe do you think is fair for that?"
*I would suggest not starting off with a timeline for her - not in the first convo. See where she takes it, and respond from there. You can be vague. "I'd like to have some of these decisions set as soon as reasonable".
*Immediate future: Can she rent from you? If you decide you'd like to leave the premise, can you have her pay the entire mortgage (not buying you out - yet) and have this in some kind of post-nup? Be sure it's all buttoned up legally. I rented from my XW for close to a year, and it worked well for us because she had moved out of state. She gave me a few months where she continued to pay as she did when we lived together - I think three months. She gave me warning and an agreement, "I don't want to be paying for this house forever, but I want you to have the time you need. I'll pay up until ____ and after that you pay the mortgage for staying here. I'd like to have it on the market by _______. Does that work?". It did.
*Do you have a place you can go and/or apartment options?
*Personal items: When you get to this point, I used Google Sheets and it worked great. Had a "want" "Might consider" and "don't want" columns. Each of us could access and enter furniture items we wanted or didn't want. Google Sheets allowed us each to easily access and we could see when changes were made. I found it a no-pressure way to get initial offers on the table. Anything that you both "want" is then negotiated.
I hope these few thoughts help.
Hi KG,
(((KG))) I know this is so hard. But you do sound great. A few thoughts for you to leave or take:
Yail said-- you have a future in front of you with NO AP IN IT!!! That is so awesome and I would hold that as an f-ing beacon of light in front of you. This is another area where our sitches were different... the kids mean that I actually had a future in front of me with AP shoved down my throat every day for the next ten years. And on special occasions for the rest of my GD life. Whereas you have a gorgeous, clean, well-lit AP-free path in front of you. With birds singing and dappled sunlight. If your W isn't able to make that choice, then you can. You have the power.
Glad you spoke with a L. I agree with Yail that the more you can be open-ended and ask her what she wants, the better. She isn't going to take it well when you tell her she can't afford the mortgage... let her go out and do the work and figure it out for herself.
Of *course* she isn't going to like it when you go in this direction. She enjoys her cake quite a bit and you're taking it away. I would recommend spending some time on the Chump Lady website to fuel your resolve here, or buy the chump lady book. It will help quite a bit, I think. Your W is living in her delusion land that it is OK to have a wife and an AP and can only do that because she knows you're there for her no matter what. She clearly hasn't thought through all the financial implications of D... let her start to figure that all out herself. That isn't your job either.
Remember... this isn't your fault. This is hers. You have done everything humanly possible to save your M, and now it is time to move forward with grace and dignity. Keep your cool in these conversations.
I'm going to guess that in addition to the rages, you'll get some backtracking. Just be prepared for how you want to handle that. In my case, once my H got to the precipice of S-- had an apartment all lined up, we'd agreed in principle to all the splitting of finances and custody-- he decided he couldn't do it, that his relationship with AP wasn't worth Ding. At that point I made the choice to stand a little longer and time will tell if that was a worthwhile gamble. Given your W's behavior, the early morning cuddles and apologies and all the rest, I wouldn't be surprised if she makes a similar choice once she sees the stark reality of losing her house and losing you looks like.
My advice when that happens (which I didn't take for myself, but I'm going to blame on the key differences in our sitch) is to hold strong. You don't have to worry about how two little human beings feel about the D-- only about how YOU feel. And I hope you can bottle up that strength and power you're feeling right now so you can keep it dripping into your veins when the hard parts come. You deserve to be on the other side of this. You've given your W ample, ample opportunity to do it together. She can't. Now you need to do this for yourself.
Also, in the meantime... can you wean yourself away from the wifely duties etc while you amp yourself up for the convo? I would recommend after the convo you probably want to stay away from all wifely duties, so the more you can catch yourself now the better you'll do.
(((KG)))
Yail,
Thank you so much for the advice. I used some of it verbatim when we talked tonight. We are going to try and work through the process of D together and plan to sit down tomorrow evening and crunch numbers to come up with a plan for moving forward. I'm not sure about finalities on the house yet, but it will either be hers or mine with a fair buyout. We agreed neither one of us want things to be ugly and we agreed to treat each other with respect in working out the details. I'm going to continue to read and re-read your post before discussions tomorrow night.
May,
I can't tell you how much your words help to lift me up and give me hope. Tonight is hard. I can't stop the tears but I know that I will get through this and onto something new. I also know the pain I've lived in for 2 years has a shelf life nearing its end. It's so hard to face this without fear. It's so hard to let go of the future I had dreamt of for so long. Scary and weird.
Any advice from peeps that have had to navigate D negotiations are welcomed. Also, any sort of levity and happiness are much appreciated ha!
KG
Hi Kristin,
You did great. I'm so impressed. Let the tears come.. of course you are sad, and scared. Anyone would be. Don't beat yourself up or try to hold it in. Now is the time to double down on taking care of yourself, whether it is a nice chocolate or a long walk or locking yourself in the bedroom to cry if that is what you need.
You're strong, you're smart, you're brave, and your heart is telling you that you are doing the right thing, even though it is scary and harder than anything else you've done before. Keep that vision of your clean and beautiful AP-free life in your mind's eye. You're on the path to that destination. One foot in front of the other.
(((KG)))
Yes, everything May said. I wish we had "like" buttons.
The other side of all of this is beautiful. I think you are on a path of letting go gracefully. I see you on the other side of this with some affectionate memories of your time with WW, but also immense hope, optimism, and zest for your future. It's not as far off as you might imagine, and it will only grow as time goes on.
So much of our culture is framed around this all-or-nothing romantic story. It's not what most of us experience. Letting go while being grateful for the many happy years you did have together is not always easy, but I think it allows you to rest easier later on. This may be premature, so I'm sorry if it's too much to hear, as you're still in the thick of it. But I think it's wonderful you and your WW had some beautiful times together. And now, you are no longer a good fit and it is absolutely the best time to move on, and change, and evolve and grow.
KG,
Hoping you had a good weekend. Wishing you all the best.
Mar
Journal and Update:
Things are moving foward with D at a snails pace. I have the paperwork ready for the lawyer to draft and WW is finishing cleaning our old apartment for her to move into. We decided that I would buy her out of the house and purchase the large appliances she had bought, all for a fair price to both of us. I will continue to cover rent on the apartment for at least the next six months so that she can figure out what she would like to do or if she wants to take over the rent payments. I'm going to take over the streaming services and cell phone and she will continue with car insurance while we're transitioning.
I'm having good days and bad days. Some days I feel like I cycle and can't shake the triggers. It is a weird dynamic in the house. We still do almost everything together and WW still comes into the MRB in the morning and cuddles up to me. I don't have the energy or strength to reject her, and if I'm honest with myself, I welcome the affection. I need to find the strength to cut if off, possibly after the paperwork is filed and I feel safe that she won't try to fight me on everything. I'll take conflict avoidance for 200 Alex. The dynamic causes me to continue to wish for a different outcome than D and it is making it harder to accept that we won't be together. It also makes the intrusive and cyclic thoughts worse because I find myself feeling like I have lost my mojo and am somehow completely repulsive (sexually) or unattractive. I know these things are in my head and not at all the case. But there is just something about it causing me to feel stuck. Maybe because we have such an intimate relationship, but WW has zero sexual desire where she used to be on fire for me. I feel rejected and second best (which is nauseating). I'm unsure, but whatever the cause, it's an area I greatly need to explore for myself. I hate feeling unattractive and it makes me fearful of the future and dating. It also reminds me of why I need to push forward with this D. I can't stand the thought of being with someone that I don't drive wild. Ughh pukes.
In other news, my company is booming and I'm about to embark on another huge journey in adding a third practice into our network. This means about 10,000 extra hours of work to keep my mind busy and pre-occupied as well as growing into one heck of a BAB with a 20% pay raise to boot. Yay mini celebrations and being thankful for the little things.
KG
KG - there is conflict avoidant during an R (unhealthy) and conflict avoidant during separation (saving yourself grief). I get the sense you were both. Some might say you need to kick WW out of the mbr and dismiss all types of affection. I personally think it's okay to play the conflict avoidant part right now as long as it is temporary and all the while you are still moving towards the D. There is only so much we can handle during the highly stressful and if simply not fighting is your goal that's a worthwhile goal. I also do think it could end up better for you to not fight her on legal stuff later.
That being said, if you don't want it, reject it. I think the "not fighting" approach only works if you're truly ambivalent and just can't muster the strength to be bothered. If you find it's sapping your energy even MORE to accept her cuddling then you should stop it. What if you closed the bedroom door while sleeping? Is there a lock on it? That would give her the answer while you get to remain silent.
Don't worry about feeling hot right now but know it will come back. Accept that as truth. Later, when you are truly separated you can consider some cute lingerie/undergarments in a style you feel great in. Being hot for no one but yourself is a great way to feel confident in your every day life. I got all matching undergarments after my separation so that no matter what day of the week it is I don't have to give it a second thought - I always match under my clothes and it always looks cute. No one knows this but me. Those bras or underwear you only wear on laundry day and they live in the back of your drawer? GET RID of them. It's kind of a great feeling to know everything you own is new and something you like.
So WW is cleaning out the apartment. What's the countdown for her moving out? I'm hoping it's soon?
Oh hun, I'm so sorry to hear about the turn of events. It's really unfortunate, but maybe for the best so you can move on with your life instead of being stuck in an infinite loop of "she loves me, she loves me not."
Work sounds like a good and needed distraction for you.
I do worry that you are paying the lion's share out while WW gets a fresh shiny new life on your dime, but I'm not really one to talk. When I left my first H I legit left with only my family's antique Christmas ornaments and the clothes my daughter and I had. I just wanted it to be done. I didn't care how much it cost for me to start over as long as we could just be done, be done quickly, and be done without a huge fight. So I don't have much to offer in the "don't do that" area on all that.
I'm also worried about WW trampling over normal boundaries of a separating couple. Like Yail I worry about the energy vampire effect that this is going to have on you. I know you still love her, and this is so, so hard. That you welcome the touch and closeness, but this is hurting you. It's clearly causing you more pain that you don't deserve here.
Lastly, the undesirable thing. I think we all go though it. You aren't, you're a catch. And I'm sure a stone cold fox, but this awful stuff about being willing to leave you for someone else has this horrible side effect of making a person think they're deficient. You aren't. She is. There is a hole inside of WW that she can't fill. For now she thinks AP is filling that. She thinks that you or your MR is the cause of the hole, but you have to remember absolutely none of that is true. WW is deficient. She is broken and lost. She is grasping for band-aids and blame. No matter what contribution you have made in the MR not being perfect is irrelevant. You are eff-able. You are lovable. You are desirable and more so completely and totally worthy of love, of lust and everything in between.
Big virtual hugs KG xoxoxo
Hi KG,
Congrats on the company expansion!! That is awesome. I think having something major and positive to dive into, especially once she moves out, will be a good thing.
In/re not feeling hot... I second what Yail and WF are saying. This isn't about you. it is about her. Remember maybe a year ago (oh god, have we been doing this for so long??) you went on a fun weekend excursion with your BF and out to bars and got hit on like crazy? Mmmmhmmm? Put yourself back in that mental state, remember how it felt, remember that just because your W is a flawed and confused person, it doesn't mean a single thing about YOU.
I'm hoping that she moves out soon... but I also remember that she was living separately from you for a long time and still trampling over all your boundaries, letting herself into your house, still spending affectionate time with you. So while I totally understand that you are picking where you can channel your strength and energy, and maybe that isn't into pushing her away when she comes into the MBR in the morning right now, do you have a plan for what your boundaries will be and how you'll enforce them once she moves out?
I share WF's concerns about your W continuing to trample on your boundaries and doing everything she can to keep you stuck. Moving out didn't stop her last time. I worry that divorce won't either. And with you living in her childhood home... I worry she'll be stopping by to grab one last thing for a long, long time. You will probably need to be the one to draw those lines and enforce them, and it is going to be HARD. Have you put any thought into this part?
(((KG)))
Happy Halloween! May today be one of your good days.
Journal:
We sign papers this week. I'm feeling very nervous and uneasy, but I know this is the right decision. WW moved out shortly before Thanksgiving. I'm settling into having my own place again and looking for ways to make it more "me". Currently, it looks barren and cold. I have a plan to repaint the main living room and am buying some funky abstract oil paintings to fill the space. Hopefully, that will be the first steps of making it my own.
WW and I still talk daily and spend a fair amount of time together. I'm really trying to let go and shift my focus to myself. It's still really hard at times, but easier than the time surrounding D-Day and D-Day 2. Our communications are mostly cordial and friendly, with very little pet names or flirting (which is a marked improvement from where I was 6 months ago). I'm working on letting go entirely. A part of me is hoping that will come easier after we sign papers. Maybe I'll feel safer to create boundaries and stop eating sh** sandwiches and stop gobbling up crumbs. I know that I feel at risk for some type of fight from being screwed over so much in past relationships. I am really proud of how amicable everything has been throughout the D prep. I feel like we have both been fair to each other and haven't tried to be greedy. Things I have gotten really good at: not reaching out to WW (I still respond - ugh crumbs) , making plans on my own with friends and without WW , finding other fun things to occupy my time.
I'm fairly certain WW is back with AP in secret. Funny story. I went to WW apartment to cook and watch a kids movie with our nephew this last weekend. SIL made a comment about WW being gone all night last night and that she assumed it was a "booty call" and that she was staying the night with me at the house. I looked at WW, smiled politely, and answered SIL that WW wasn't with me. Things did not get awkward and I didn't actually have an emotional response which I took as a win for myself. I'm trying to not let anything that WW does or doesn't do have any space in my mind. It's not easy, but I'm working on it.
I hope everyone had a good holiday season with their families.
KG
Kristin,
Happy New Year! Sounds like you ave having success "detaching". So happy for you. Glad to see an update on your sitch. Wishing you all the Best.
Mar
Hey KG,
I just want to say that you'll look back on your sitch and realize that this isn't so:
I feel like we have both been fair to each other and haven't tried to be greedy.
She is not fair, and she is greedy. She wants a divorce, she wants a OW, she wants to hang out and text you all the time.
That said, you do seem to be doing better, just don't be better at eating those sandwiches you mentioned. Be really better.
Hi KG!! Happy New Year! I am so glad to have an update from you. I've been thinking of you and wondering how you are doing.
I know this is all so tough. I'm really proud of you for taking the steps that need to be taken and moving forward, even though it is difficult.
I had a few thoughts to share for you to take or leave:
-- I agree with overrnbw. She is not fair, and she is greedy. She has consistently shown, over and over, that she is incapable of (or unwilling to) treat you with respect and fairness. You don't get to have both a W and an AP. She sniffs out your boundaries and then tramples on them, over and over. She likes having you stuck. It benefits her. Not because she is an evil person, but because she is lost and messed up and incapable of having an adult relationship right now, where you treat your partner with love, decency, and respect.
-- Can you take the paper signing as a point for you to really set up your boundaries and stop? Can you give yourself a break from her after the D? Like say, a month of NC? I think it is going to have to be you to do the work of setting the boundaries and then enforcing them. She will not do this. In fact, my guess is that she may even pick up the pace after the D is finalized, because in her mind she'll be able to tell herself that she isn't cheating anymore, that you clearly want to be friends with her and that is a positive thing, etc. I worry that nothing is going to really change until you are the one to step up, cut her out, and really focus on yourself for awhile without her there to hold you back.
KG, you just deserve so much more than she's giving you. And it makes my heart hurt to think about you guys Ding and her just continuing to use your beautiful, kind, giving soul, keeping you locked into her and unable to move on. You deserve to be #1 for someone who is as giving and selfless as you. (((KG)))
All that being said... how is work? And excited to hear how repainting the living room and making it YOU goes.
I feel like you're my sister in all of this, KG.... we've been through so much together and I have so much love and respect for you. I feel like once you shake off WW, I imagine you like Gal Gadot in Wonder Woman striding forward into life, shining and gorgeous with an open heart. (I haven't seen the new movie yet, so this is based on her in the first movie just in case anything crazy happens in WW1984!) You got this, KG. You're strong and I'm excited for you.
xoxo M
Happy Wednesday All.
The signing went OK. I promised myself I wouldn't cry, epic fail there. We both shed some tears and it was hard, but I pushed through and that part is at least finished. I have ordered some more abstract oil paintings to fill my barren walls and will be going to look at paint choices this weekend. My friend used to be a painter and is going to do the entire open living room/ kitchen for a really fair price.
Ovr,
I'm sure you are correct. I have been more generous than I probably should. I know that I will most likely look back on this and say that I should have done less in the terms of the split. For me, I think that I would rather look back on it with those feelings than to have stood my ground more and things go sour. I want to be able to hold my head up and know that I simply walked away from a toxic relationship with class and dignity.
You're also right in that STBX is greedy in her selfishness to want both of us. I don't think she even realizes that she does it. I'm doing my best to detach and find my own happy. A lot of the angst I still feel is when I'm drawn into the pick me dance or the feelings of "what does she have that I don't". It's a fruitless endeavor and I'm trying my best to accept that she does not want the same things as I do, and that I deserve a partner that wants a committed relationship.
May,
I don't think I can do NC. Something about it just doesn't feel right in my soul. Maybe if she were hateful and venomous in the way she interacts with me it would be easier to go NC. Full stop. Maybe that's why I am still pulled to the allure. Not saying it is the healthiest thing for me, but I am trying to find acceptance and peace.
I feel like you and I have been in this together from the start. Your posts fill me with strength and hope for our futures. When I'm having a crumby day, I like to read your sassy posts and realize that I should be so thankful for my current circumstances. If May can do it with kids, a husband that is clueless as to what he almost / still could lose, and doing it all in a work from home environment, then I for sure can find some strength to get through this without any of those stressors. And yes to Wonder Woman! She's one of my favorites - such prowess!
Thank you guys for checking in as I know that I'm not here as much anymore. I fell into a hole of "do everything you can to fix it. YOU HAVE TO FIX IT." in my view of this platform and that's not the healthiest emotional state for anyone. This place has been such a help to get encouragement and a tough outlook when I needed it. Presently, I'm shifting my focus on this board to be more of a personal growth and journal of survival for myself. No more trying to fix something clearly broken and that I have no control over. YES to fixing myself and working to nurture my own self improvement.
KG
KG,
Presently, I'm shifting my focus on this board to be more of a personal growth and journal of survival for myself. No more trying to fix something clearly broken and that I have no control over. YES to fixing myself and working to nurture my own self improvement.
YAAAAS to this!!! I am completely behind you on this.
I don't think I can do NC. Something about it just doesn't feel right in my soul. Maybe if she were hateful and venomous in the way she interacts with me it would be easier to go NC. Full stop. Maybe that's why I am still pulled to the allure. Not saying it is the healthiest thing for me, but I am trying to find acceptance and peace.
Here's the thing. You know how they say to be thoughtful in which friends/family you confide in, because people that love you just want to see you stop being in pain, and want the WS OUT because of that? I think I fall into that category with you. I'm angry with your ex for hurting you. I have a hard time separating my own pain from seeing you hurt, and just want you to be better, be Gal Godot striding out of the flames on the other side of all this mess. (you will be.)
But. You are a smart, thoughtful person. I believe that you've thought this whole thing through and I support your choices in this. You need to process and deal with all of this in the way that is right to YOU, not to anyone else. So if that means continuing to be friends/friendly while you grow, okay. That is 100% your choice and I support it.
I think the most important part of any of this is to be able to look back and know that you did the right things for the right reasons. So whatever it takes for you to do this in a way that is true to yourself, you do it. I know that I've taken a similar, harder path than I might have, but I did it with my eyes open and a decision that if it was harder this way on me, I was willing to absorb that in order to make it easier on my kids if I could. So I will stop bothering you to go NC... but I might continue to hint that it is healthy and good for you to focus on YOU, and when you sense interacting with her is making that difficult, probably even ignoring a call or text for awhile will help.
xoxo M