All -- I have a WAS with MLC
I found out about my husbands affair on Feb 25th - he went from a kind husband, to cruel & uncaring that day, Feb 25th. Spent a few weeks where he was trying to convince me that he could have both of us, he could compartmentalize, it would work. She was the best friend he ever had. He finally stopped seeing her and then stopped talking to her - that took about 3 weeks.
The last month, we were going on walks, talking - really getting along, good conversation - he is impressed at the changes I have made - and says he knows I have really have changed. He would say he loved me. He would say I had so many great qualities, as a person,as a friend. Then last Sunday, complete 180, he was done - its over - he is going to leave.
He says he truly believes I have made fundamental changes, and that things would be better between us, but he does not love me or have that 'emotional' connection any longer. He is leaving. For the time he is here, while getting his items in order, he says he will continue to consider us...but I think that he is just buying time.
He is still exercising obsessively every day, taking his testosterone shots, human growth shots, minoxidil for his hair line - and dressing in concert T shirts like a 20 yr old. And talking to me in a cold tone with cold uncaring eyes. He does not seem to care even for the kids. He is detaching from us all. He is leaving.
Should I do a 180 and kick him out? or see if staying here would make any difference? His brother is willing to fly out and talk (some sense) to him. Should I invite him to come? will that even help?
I am just exhausted and can not see the forest for the trees, can someone please point out what I am missing or next steps. Feeling hopeless.
Me: 50
Husband: 49
D: 16
S: 13
Married for 23 years
D Day: Feb 25th 2020
Emotional & Physical affair Dec 2019 - Feb 2020
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
M,
I’m really sorry you are here but you’ve come to the right place.
Unfortunately my belief is the affair is still going on.
I wouldn’t kick him out if he is leaving anyway. I think you may be confused by the lingo so it’s best to read the links Cadet sent to you.
I would save the airfare from his brother because there is no talking sense into an MLCer.
This is going to take a really long time to play out.
I’m really sorry you’re going through this right now.
Welcome to the board. These things are not easy. Most of our instincts are wrong. When we find out our spouse is unhappy or wants to leave, or when we find out they are in an affair, we usually do the wrong things.
We:
- Become super spouse, doing everything around the house, catering to their ever whim
- We make changes. If they complained we never took care of our appearance, we begin to. If they said we were moody, we become super sweet.
- We beg, plead, try to reason, try to get them to agree to things (please consider us while you are planning to leave) etc.
LH is right. His affair never ended. Even if they took a 3 week break, in the back of his mind he was going to reach out to her at some point and restart it. Likely he has two goals: leave the marriage but be able to look his kids and the eye and claim he tried (thus the 3 weeks), and get out with as little resistance as possible.
So what can you do? First have you read The Divorce Remedy? If not get it and read it. Next you want to remove all pressure and pursuit. This is goal #1. If you feel the urge to do something, stop and ask yourself "does this fall under pressure and pursuit?" If yes, then do no do it. If maybe, do not do it. If you have any doubt, do not do it! Remember, doing nothing IS doing something. Most things you will be tempted to do are pressure and pursuit. So default to doing nothing.
Be busy. Keep yourself occupied with things that do not include him. Go for long walks. Read. Go for car rides. Meet (even if virtually in our current world) with friends and family. (DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR SITUATION, these actions are to get away from your situation.)
Keep working on you. Keep making positive changes to you. Not for him or the marriage, but for yourself. Become the best version of you that you can be! Get into IC.
And then work on healthy, emotional detachment. Study what that means. Nothing was as useful in my situation as not reacting the way she expected me to to what she said and did! If you can successfully detach, I think you will be surprised at the changes in him.
Follow good anti-DB principles. Do not share your bed with a cheater. I would move him out of the MBR. Doesn't matter where he sleeps as long as it it not with you. In most jurisdictions you can't kick him out legally. You can ask him to leave if that is what you want. Never do anything in an attempt to manipulate him or get him to change. That is pressure and pursuit.
Keep posting, we are here to help.
Should I do a 180 and kick him out?
No. A lot of WAS's fall into this trap of trying to "nice" their WAS back and then when that doesn't work, they try to "mean" them back. Make threats, kick them out, start the D process. But they're not doing it because that's what they want, they're doing it to try and "wake them up". But it never works, so then they revert to trying to "nice" them back again and back and forth it goes. And it all just drives the WAS farther and farther away.
And.... that's not a 180 anyway. What is a 180? It's doing the opposite of what you've been doing. And what have you been doing? EVERYTHING to get him back! So what is the opposite of doing "everything"? Yup, you got it- "nothing". And that's what you should do, at least when it comes to saving the M. Nothing at all. Remove all pressure. Leave him alone. THIS is the hardest thing of all to do because your whole body and soul is screaming DO SOMETHING! And you can do something, just not for the marriage, at least not directly.
You work on YOU. Lose weight if you need to. Get in shape if you need to. Spruce up your wardrobe. Change your hair style. Get back into old hobbies, learn a few new ones. Take a painting class, do volunteer work, go for walks every day, joint a meetup group or two. Reach out to old friends. Make some new ones. In short, GET A LIFE.
His brother is willing to fly out and talk (some sense) to him. Should I invite him to come? will that even help?
No, it will not help. In fact it may hurt things. Whether you have anything to do with it or not he will blame you for "rallying the troops against him". Just tell the brother that he needs time and space more than anything.
Thank you for the advice!
I have read the book and now re-reading it for clarity...and working thru the newcomer threads, almost done. I have been stalking for awhile before I posted.
Lets see - I personally know he is not physically seeing her, though he may be in touch with her via phone. Honestly, I have moved past that. And, we are in separate beds - no sex (by this choice).
All the soul crushing things that he has said to me - have really helped me detach from him. I will work for this 23 year marriage, and us, and our kids and family - but that being said - getting brained emotionally so often has numbed me a
lot. In fact, I posted on a dating app last night - and overnight got many messages and likes - and it validated me that there are potential partners out there that 'want' me (yeah, I lost 30 pounds & that helped, I feel better about myself) I took myself off the app early this morning.
I asked him about his departure and requested he not to leave in the middle of the night. He said he would let me know. I asked him to stay and continue to try, but he is convinced he no longer loves me. I let him know that I understood that he could not really know if these changes are permanent unless he stuck around...and I fully understood what a chance he would be taking to stay and trust me after all these bad years of hurting him. But, he is finally getting everything he ever wanted from me - and how bittersweet it was for me to now understand his predicament & pain and never have had the chance to show him the changes he always wanted.
He said he would stay and try. I let him know he would have to stop looking for a place and try connecting. He said he would. Who really knows what he is doing - maybe just placating me - maybe buying more time for his indecisiveness - maybe he is hearing the tinges of detachment from my side. This morning he was all hugs - I did not initiate that.
I will let his brother know not to come. Appreciate that good advice AnotherStander.
Steve85, I have officially taken off my super spouse cape...I will show love and empathy but stay on my side of the street.
Still would appreciate ya'all's objective nod that either I am being played -or- handling it right per DB rules.
In fact, I posted on a dating app last night - and overnight got many messages and likes - and it validated me that there are potential partners out there that 'want' me (yeah, I lost 30 pounds & that helped, I feel better about myself) I took myself off the app early this morning.
Try cultivating that confidence within yourself instead of looking outward for approval from others.
I asked him about his departure and requested he not to leave in the middle of the night. He said he would let me know. I asked him to stay and continue to try, but he is convinced he no longer loves me. I let him know that I understood that he could not really know if these changes are permanent unless he stuck around...
This is pursuing. Let him go when he wants to go and allow him to go through his journey on his own.
and I fully understood what a chance he would be taking to stay and trust me after all these bad years of hurting him.
How did you hurt him?
@Wooba - I dont think asking/knowing a departure date to not be here for my sake and the kids is considered pursuing. Begging and pleading not to go would be.
@Wooba - A spouse does not just Walk Away from a happy marriage, right? there were issues per him, that revolve around me - for that I am willing to apologize for.
THE NEXT DAY:
I blew it...
I purposely left my phone in his car to find where he would go on outings. The sheer anxiety of every minute not knowing was really unbearable. He asked me about it, and I was honest and told him. He was MAD to say the least, and treated me with unkindness, even after all the forgiveness and kindness I have shown him.
So, after saying he would stay and try & even go to counseling...he left last night from 12am to 5am and snuck back in...I came out of my room this morning, and the wedding ring is on the kitchen table. I am afraid to come out of my room as what he will say - clearly he is about to walk out the door. This is so incredibly painful, its like going thru a meat grinder, both emotionally and physically. Even though I thought I would be okay when it happened - I am just not.
PLEASE HELP!
Do I confront him on his outing last night?
Do I say anything about the ring? or his planned counselor session with a DB counselor?
How do I handle this?!
thank you!!
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Me: 50
Husband: 49
D: 16
S: 13
Married for 23 years
D Day: Feb 25th 2020
Emotional & Physical affair Dec 2019 - Feb 2020
MistySea,
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't confront him about last evening. The more you try to reason w/him, the more he's going to do what he wants. He's like a teenager and when "mom" confronts him, he'll most likely lie or project on to you how he's feeling. You cannot rationalize w/him.
I also wouldn't say a word about the ring. Just put it on the counter where he can find it. He's hoping that you'll say something to him about last night and the ring so that he can pick an argument w/you. Why? He needs justification for what he's doing or what he's thinking about doing.
I hope you didn't give him this site address. This site is for you and it's a safe place for people to post. I would suggest that you continue counseling and not say another word about him going. Unless he's willing to go, which most likely won't happen unless he drops the ow (if there is one), then counseling isn't going to do anything for him. The only thing he will do is have selective hearing and hear what he wants to hear and may not continue w/the counseling.
Please, please do not share this DB site w/him!
I know that this is a tough situation for you, but you've got to detach a bit more and go about your daily routine. The more you tried to talk to him about the relationship, the more he's going to run the other way. Come here to vent and talk.
@Wooba - I dont think asking/knowing a departure date to not be here for my sake and the kids is considered pursuing. Begging and pleading not to go would be.
@Wooba - A spouse does not just Walk Away from a happy marriage, right? there were issues per him, that revolve around me - for that I am willing to apologize for.
THE NEXT DAY:
I blew it...
I purposely left my phone in his car to find where he would go on outings. The sheer anxiety of every minute not knowing was really unbearable. He asked me about it, and I was honest and told him. He was MAD to say the least, and treated me with unkindness, even after all the forgiveness and kindness I have shown him.
So, after saying he would stay and try & even go to counseling...he left last night from 12am to 5am and snuck back in...I came out of my room this morning, and the wedding ring is on the kitchen table. I am afraid to come out of my room as what he will say - clearly he is about to walk out the door. This is so incredibly painful, its like going thru a meat grinder, both emotionally and physically. Even though I thought I would be okay when it happened - I am just not.
PLEASE HELP!
Do I confront him on his outing last night?
Do I say anything about the ring? or his planned counselor session with a DB counselor?
How do I handle this?!
thank you!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me: 50
Husband: 49
D: 16
S: 13
Married for 23 years
D Day: Feb 25th 2020
Emotional & Physical affair Dec 2019 - Feb 2020
So....you nitpick Wooba about whether asking a departure data is pursuing or not.....and then leave your phone in his car to track him.
I think you are splitting hairs when clearly you are still in pressure and pursuit mode. If you are willing to leave your phone in his car to track him, then I find it hard to believe your pinning him down on a departure date was an altruistic effort for the sake of your kids.
MS, one of the first things that a LBS has to start being is honest with themselves. Almost everything we do as LBS early in our situations is for us. Even if we spin it that it is for the kids, or it was an honest question, or we were looking out for our WAS. Once you can admit that your actions aren't pure then you can start to change them. For the better.
Reread this.
Next you want to remove all pressure and pursuit. This is goal #1. If you feel the urge to do something, stop and ask yourself "does this fall under pressure and pursuit?" If yes, then do no do it. If maybe, do not do it. If you have any doubt, do not do it! Remember, doing nothing IS doing something. Most things you will be tempted to do are pressure and pursuit. So default to doing nothing.
The more you move away from him (by not pressuring and pursuing) the more he will move towards you. Read the distance/pursuit dynamic thread. It is legit.
PLEASE HELP!
Do I confront him on his outing last night?
Do I say anything about the ring? or his planned counselor session with a DB counselor?
How do I handle this?!
So look at those questions above. In the frame of what I asked you to reread.
I think you already know the answers.
Here is the truth. You, unfortunately, don't get to decide that your marriage continues. It takes two to make a marriage, but only one to divorce. If he wants a divorce you will be divorced. If he wants to leave, he will leave. Nothing you can say or do will change that. There is no magic bullet to fix this. We all come here looking for it only to discover it doesn't exist.
What you do have is X amount of time. Again, X is not decided by you, it is decided by him. However, your actions can make X go down exponentially. Every time you pressure and pursue, you push him further away and further out of the door. Unfortunately that is the sad reality. Unfortunately, you've already made X go down, and your actions last night (hiding the phone) made it go down more. If you want to subtract from X further, then go ahead and ask those questions. They are all pressure and pursuit.
MS, I wish I could tell you "do this or say that" and it would fix it. It can't. We have a saying around here, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. So you need to prepare for the worst. You also need to maximize X in the equation above. And you do that by removing all pressure and pursuit. Leave him alone to figure his stuff out. In the meantime you focus on you. GAL, which means to keep busy. Keep improving yourself. And detach. Which means to stop reacting emotionally to what he says and does. Use GAL and stay busy to study detachment. Learn what it really is and isn't. And then apply it.
I was one of the lucky ones and turned my situation around. I never would have if I hadn't studied detachment, worked on it, and became really good at it. You don't get there overnight, so start working on it now.
Thank you all, Steve85, job, AnotherStander...really appreciate your advice and I followed the ring advice, and didn't ask a thing about his his leaving all night. He was surprisingly very nice the next morning - even so far as coming over and giving me a hug. Generally, he was in a good mood all day... the evenings are always bad.
And, I hear you all..detach, detach, detach...even though everything about me says engage. I will read.
Update:
He had his appt with the DB counselor this morning - he seems
very upset - took off this afternoon on an 'errand'. This is the first time he is going somewhere without saying where he is going (even if its untrue). I am just hoping and praying he will try the next step of both of us talking to the DB counselor together
I had my appt with my DB counselor, he wants me to get ready for when he walks out/leaves
I just can not get my head around that - I am having anxiety attacks about this, I feel like I am free falling from a cliff and my life as it was is just getting smaller and further away to ever coming back to.
Advice on this - please:Generally, I just leave him alone: to his work during the day, while he works out for 2 hours I make his special vegetarian dinners (outside of the kids food), and then he plays video games at night. I do come in for a 15 min talk in the evening - just to connect - about the day, nothing marriage related. I can tell after 15 mins he is done with me, so I go. He then drinks, and gets on the computer.
thank you!!
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Me: 50
Husband: 49
D: 16
S: 13
Married for 23 years
D Day: Feb 25th 2020
Emotional & Physical affair Dec 2019 - Feb 2020?? and still continuing?
He has fired you as his wife. So that means you need to stop providing wifely services for him. Tonight, make the kids and yourself food. When he comes down and says "where's dinner" you simply say. "I was too busy (see this is where GAL and being busy comes in!). From now on you are going to have to make your own food." THEN END THE CONVERSATION. Walk away if you have to. Go run an errand if you have to, anything.
And let me ask you and please answer honestly...........are these 15 minutes talks at night pressure and pursuit? Don't try to rationalize. Don't try to justify. Just step back from and look at it objectively.
He had his appt with the DB counselor this morning
One of Michele's counselors? Or do you mean MC or IC? Most counselors are not trained in DB'ing techniques and in fact are little more than divorce facilitators.
I had my appt with my DB counselor, he wants me to get ready for when he walks out/leaves
It is highly unusual for reconciling (with a WAS) to happen while under the same roof. Separation isn't the end of things, sometimes it's the beginning of the rebuilding process. So try not to be afraid of it.
Advice on this - please:
Generally, I just leave him alone: to his work during the day, while he works out for 2 hours I make his special vegetarian dinners (outside of the kids food), and then he plays video games at night. I do come in for a 15 min talk in the evening - just to connect - about the day, nothing marriage related. I can tell after 15 mins he is done with me, so I go. He then drinks, and gets on the computer.
My first advice is to drop all expectations. Nothing you say or do right now is going to be the magic bullet that puts everything "back to normal". Once a spouse goes WAS, there is no easy path back. It's a long, looooong hard road.
Second, as Steve said, he's fired you as wife. He doesn't want you right now. He may even be repulsed by your presence. You can do things for him like make his meals and do his laundry and ironically he may very well resent you for it. So you should taper off on your "wife" duties. Focus on you and the kids and treat him like a stranger living in your house. Be cordial but don't go out of your way to talk to him. Let him make his own "special" meals and do his laundry and pick up after himself.
To be real with you right now, he sounds like an entitled a-hole if he is spending two hours a night working out and expecting you to make meals for him so that he can quickly eat and then run off to play video games. Is he 12????
He has fired me as his wife
ouch.
Steve & AnotherStander-
I hear you...If I say this "I was too busy. From now on you are going to have to make your own food"... he will not appreciate that and will consider that very confrontational. If what I say does not please him, or irritates him in the least, he makes a point to get in my face and remind me that he is on razor edge of walking out that door. He knows that terrifies me. I don't know what to do to get over that. I am afraid to not make him dinner. Clearly, I have work to do on myself.
The 15 mins, if not needed, I will gladly give up doing! Maybe its pursuit? He is repulsed by me, sadly. If I got the look he gives me from someone on an elevator, I would not get on the elevator! So - this is an easy one, I will stop this immediately. I get very anxious during those talks. Honestly, I feel like a mouse scurrying for crumbs with a cat watching & ready to attack. He is VERY ANGRY right now. It comes out of every pore in his face. scary angry.
I don't know if its due to all the testosterone shots he is taking - or is this is an MLC thing? He very much enjoys hurting me. He will say cruel things and will openly smile when I breakdown and cry. When I see his possessed face, I get afraid, because I know what is coming, if its on, he will not relent. He is only satisfied once I am shaking / weeping and apologizing and telling him I will do better in the future.
Is this normal for a WAS/MLC??? He was never like this before, does MLC do this to a man?The Counselor sessions are with one of Michelle's DB Counselors:
H had his session, said that the counselor wanted the focus to be on communication, building trust and conflict resolution. This would be helpful, regardless of the outcome of us staying together or not. (Ouch - I really did not like that spin). Next, we both have one more session apart to determine common goals, then sessions together. I am ecstatic that he is doing counseling, but confused b/c he doesn't even enjoy talking to me.
Can you offer some advice on this - its very confusing for me.I can not tell you how much I appreciate your wisdom on this - it helps me so much I can not express.
Misty
The biggest problem for most people in this scenario is the feeling that you've lost control over your life and your future.
For years you've lived by a certain set of rules -- that if you're a good wife, you can count on your husband supporting you.
Because you're married, your relationship is a source of stability in your life.
etc. etc.
When that's suddenly ripped away and you can't understand (a) what you did to make it fall apart so suddenly, (b) why the person who used to be your partner seems to have had a complete personality change and (c) why you can't seem to do anything to make it better, it is totally destabilizing.
Your brain doesn't like this instability, and it doesn't like the unavailability of a remedy at all! Its panic-inducing.
Because of this lack of control and the fear that comes with it, you desperately, desperately want to regain your feeling of control and stability.
Your brain convinces you that the quickest way to do that is to get your spouse back. If you can do that, then all the old rules still apply and there was just a temporary blip on the radar.
As a result, your brain will *compel* you to want to pursue, and everything else is a justification to allow you to do what you want.
Step back and look at some of these situations -- a person's wife cheats on them for years with several OM's. If that comes to light, a rational person would say "this woman has issues" and head the other way right? But in reality, we see time and again that the LBS convinces themselves that this cheater is the best person in the world, and they want to have them back more than anything.
WHY? Because the loss of control is devastating. The loss of control is something our brains can't process or tolerate.
If you see this in yourself, that you have lost your feeling of control, then you can come to the conclusion that this is what you need to deal with, not what your husband does or doesn't do.
Misty,
Yes, he fired you as his wife and lover. Now, you have to figure out how to detach a bit more from your situation. I am going to be very frank w/you, it wouldn't matter what you said or did, he's going to take it the wrong way. You can tell him the sky is blue and he'll have something negative to say. If you are afraid of him, then make the dinner and have it sitting on the stove. Do not wait for him to come in to eat. You and your family eat when it is time to eat. Leave him to his situation. Learn to view him as a roommate who is having a bad day. If he doesn't talk to you, then leave him be. If he asks you a question, answer is very plain language, do not elaborate on the topic. Right now, he's the exact opposite of the man you married and he's going to be that way for quite some time.
It is very normal for them to demonize the spouse. They are lashing out and want you to take the blame for the breakdown of the marriage...but it takes to to make a marriage work and if one of them is out there acting out and looking for something outside of the marriage, then it is their responsibility to look at themselves and within to realize that happiness doesn't come from outside sources but from within. Your h is going to continue to come at you each and every chance he gets because he feels guilty, ashamed and yes, pressured into coming back into the relationship. Do not take what he says personally unless there is some truth to some of the things he says. Believe nothing he says and only 1/2 of what he does right now.
He thinks he has the power over you and sounds like he is enjoying being a big bully. Don't allow him to do this to you. When he starts those rants, just say, "I'm sorry you feel the way that you do" and then leave him to himself. Find something else to do, go for a drive, but you do not have to put up w/that nonsense. The more he sees you breaking down, the more he will do so. It's his way of pushing you away from him. He doesn't want to feel anything for you...thus, the bully tactics.
To be honest, I don't recommend any IC sessions together for now. He's just going and having selective hearing as to what he wants to hear and yes, he's going to these sessions because it's something he can fling back in your face at some point and say "I went to the sessions and now I'm done", etc. If I were you, I would continue my individual sessions because until the other person is completely out of his life and he's ready to recommit, he's just going to listen and not follow through on anything the DB counselor or any other counselor has to say.
Dig deeper for patience, watch your bank and credit card accounts.
LH19 - Everything you say makes sense and describes what I am feeling to a T!!! I feel like I am in a maelstrom and drowning, and your words are like a raft that I can see but can not pull myself into to save myself - no matter how hard I try. I hate myself for being so weak to willingly allow him to put a lead leash on me and control this situation so easily. Now that I see this conclusion - how do I act on it? what do have to do to get my bearings straight?
Job- Thank you for the clarity on how to handle the day to day. "If he doesn't talk to you, then leave him be. If he asks you a question, answer in very plain language, do not elaborate on the topic." - Yes, that I can do! Thank you for this instruction - I feel like this will allow me to stop walking on eggshells around him. Why am I complicating things? When you say it, it is very simple. I ordered the book, Solo Partner, I will read this and the articles to try to learn how to detach - even though right now nothing is processing.
On the together counseling - I don't know what to do - I leave it in the DB counselors hands to decide the best approach. I will talk to him on Monday morning on our personal session and ask.
All - I appreciate the support - life just [censored] right now (Boeing layoff on the horizon, fractured foot, 86 yr old mom is sick, kids are following me like ducklings with questions I have no answers to - and my mind is complete mush). Add, the isolation of quarantine is hard. I know it sounds much but honestly this board is my only reaffirming sane touch point to understanding how to get thru this. I am so sorry that the best advice is coming from those that had to live thru this already. Please please don't leave me.
LH19 - Everything you say makes sense and describes what I am feeling to a T!!! I feel like I am in a maelstrom and drowning, and your words are like a raft that I can see but can not pull myself into to save myself - no matter how hard I try. I hate myself for being so weak to willingly allow him to put a lead leash on me and control this situation so easily. Now that I see this conclusion - how do I act on it? what do have to do to get my bearings straight?
M you are not going to want to hear this but the only answer is time. There is nothing you can do right now to change your circumstances. You need to have the attitude that says "husband you go find your happiness, I'm going to go lead an awesome life, if you want to be a part of it then that is something we will need to talk about". It will be difficult at first so you'll need to fake it until you make it. Eventually with time and space you will realize that you can be happy with or without him if you choose. My suggestion would be to get him out of the house as son as possible.
LH19 - Okay... time. Can I get some perspective on this? Do they go for a couple months, or a year? Does anyone have info on the statistics of WAS' coming back after they leave?
I found out from the counselor that the H is only focused on using this counseling for ways to make our post divorce co-parenting better. From the counselor: "You don’t have to mull this over, (H) is really clear that his goal is to make you better co-parents post divorce. Nothing is going to change that in the next 48 hours. This process is an opportunity for you to show up better than he expects, challenge his negative beliefs about you as you work together to improve these skills."
I did talk to H - and let him know I am 100% vested in pure marriage counseling - after all I chose the DB counselors as this is all about Divorce busting, right? Focusing on 'communication, trust, conflict resolution' right now is like throwing a glass of water on someone that is completely on fire - not going to help.
H says he realizes I am 'fighting for my life'. I asked him if he is even trying - he said no. I asked him then why is he still here? he says this is him being open-minded. I asked him for clarification, he said he was here and that shows something, that he is being open-minded to a possibility of things changing. Is he playing me?
He continues to say he believes he has no chance of being happy here - of course I tell him that everything ebbs and flows and granted we are in a lull but things will ebb back...and he just has to wait to try this out - fully. That happiness takes effort on his part, the grass is greener on the side you water...I listened.
Surprisingly he asked, would I still be with him if it had nothing to do with the kids? That rocked me, because of course I would! I love him for him - not for the sake of holding this family together. How could he not know this?
We talked and he seems deeply conflicted. He actually told me he felt guilty for keeping me from moving on to someone that would love me like I love him. I told him, to not make me an excuse/reason as to why he needs to leave. I asked him why he is so unkind, he said because he thinks its leading me on if he is nice to me. I am not seeing the forest for the trees - Please translate all this straight up. He acts conflicted, so I think there is hope - if I ask if there is even a 'glimmer' of hope - he will say yes - he is being open-minded. And the fact he is doing the counseling adds to my confusion.
much thanks - my DB counselor keeps telling me there is a good guy buried deep in there. This is encouraging to me. But maybe this is from the MLC side. What about the WAS side?
Misty,
He is the only one that can control that timeline. You have to remember that you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him, nor can you control the length of time is required for him to figure himself out. I, personally, do not like to reference statistics because we can only say what we see here and what the "experts" write about IRL. However, if given enough time and space, you have a 50/50 chance of him waking himself up and realizing that the grass isn't greener on the other side. Now, you have to also consider that after a period of time and you've adjusted to living your own life and rediscovering the person that you were long ago, you may just opt not to take him back. Many come to realize that once they have rediscovered the person that they put up on a shelf to marry the spouse, and they like that former person, they just might decide that they would prefer to venture forth into the future on their own or meet up w/someone much, much better suited to the new and improved self. I've seen that happen many times over both here and IRL.
You really do need to stop discussing the future and the relationship w/him. Right now, he's trying to find that much needed space to figure himself out. The more you discuss the relationship w/him, the more his attention isn't focused on him and why he feels the way that he does. Trust me, the more you push for answers, the less you will get in the way of responses.
We provide the same advice to both the WAS and the MLCer...time, space and no relationship talks. You need to keep the focus on you and what you need to do to improve those areas of your "self" that you think need improvement. Improvements are to be made for you and not to try to win him back. Also, really listen to what he says. You can sift through the comments and you might discover some helpful tidbits.
Again, no relationship talks, stop pushing for answers...he can't provide them right now, focus on you and most importantly dig deeper for patience. This is not a sprint...but a marathon and it will take as long as it takes for him to realize that the grass isn't greener over on the other side of the fence. The more determined he will be to run the other way.
LH19 - Okay... time. Can I get some perspective on this? Do they go for a couple months, or a year? Does anyone have info on the statistics of WAS' coming back after they leave?
I found out from the counselor that the H is only focused on using this counseling for ways to make our post divorce co-parenting better. From the counselor: "You don’t have to mull this over, (H) is really clear that his goal is to make you better co-parents post divorce. Nothing is going to change that in the next 48 hours. This process is an opportunity for you to show up better than he expects, challenge his negative beliefs about you as you work together to improve these skills."
I did talk to H - and let him know I am 100% vested in pure marriage counseling - after all I chose the DB counselors as this is all about Divorce busting, right? Focusing on 'communication, trust, conflict resolution' right now is like throwing a glass of water on someone that is completely on fire - not going to help.
H says he realizes I am 'fighting for my life'. I asked him if he is even trying - he said no. I asked him then why is he still here? he says this is him being open-minded. I asked him for clarification, he said he was here and that shows something, that he is being open-minded to a possibility of things changing. Is he playing me?
He continues to say he believes he has no chance of being happy here - of course I tell him that everything ebbs and flows and granted we are in a lull but things will ebb back...and he just has to wait to try this out - fully. That happiness takes effort on his part, the grass is greener on the side you water...I listened.
Surprisingly he asked, would I still be with him if it had nothing to do with the kids? That rocked me, because of course I would! I love him for him - not for the sake of holding this family together. How could he not know this?
We talked and he seems deeply conflicted. He actually told me he felt guilty for keeping me from moving on to someone that would love me like I love him. I told him, to not make me an excuse/reason as to why he needs to leave. I asked him why he is so unkind, he said because he thinks its leading me on if he is nice to me. I am not seeing the forest for the trees - Please translate all this straight up. He acts conflicted, so I think there is hope - if I ask if there is even a 'glimmer' of hope - he will say yes - he is being open-minded. And the fact he is doing the counseling adds to my confusion.
much thanks - my DB counselor keeps telling me there is a good guy buried deep in there. This is encouraging to me. But maybe this is from the MLC side. What about the WAS side?
Wow. So much focus on him. You'll never ever make progress with this much focus on him. You have to bear down and forget about him. He's making choices that are selfish and are not in the best interest of those he is supposed to love. If he had acted like this when you first met him you would have told him to kick rocks. But now you're willing to put up with it. Ever stop to ask yourself why? I know you'd say you love him, but romantic love is not unconditional. There are things he could do that would cause you to toss him on his butt. Where is that line? Apparently he hasn't crossed that line yet, right?
But what if you were friends with someone and their husband was behaving this way? Would you tell her to hold onto him for dear life? Would you tell her to put 100% of her focus and energy into him?
Sometimes when we are too close to our own situation to see it clearly and to realize what our instincts tell us and what we feel is natural to do is actually wrong.
I like to use the analogy of eating until you are full. Over full even. Then having someone try to get you to eat something. We've all been there. You get done eating, go to someone's house and they try to feed you more. It's annoying. Well your WAH has told you he is full of you and you continue to try to feed him more of you. Do you think that helps you or hurts you? What you have to do is pull back completely, make him miss you and get hungry again, and then he'll come looking for you. People want what they can't have. You should become what he can no longer have.
Stop worrying about what he says. Watch what he does. When you start detaching well he may verbally protest. Don't fall for that, that's manipulation. Watch what he does. As he starts reaching out to you, coming towards you. Maybe even showing some of those old sparks of his former self.
One last thing. You can go your own way, do what comes naturally to you, and go through the same mistakes we all made. Or you can listen to us, those that have been through it and come out the other end. Some, like me, managed to save our marriages. Some ended up getting divorced. But we all saved ourselves!
Misty, He is the only one that can control that timeline. You have to remember that you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him,
- I did break him! I know that. During the last years, I always thought it was him. At the start I thought I was the loving one, I was the caring one, I was the one who 'got it' relationship wise - and he sort of thought the same, so when I pointed out things going wrong in our relationship, it was because of him. If you just did this, or did this, it would be better. When that started to not work, we started to go to counselors - who after listening to these situations - would completely side with me. We jumped thru 3 counselors that consistently targeted him based on his reported behaviors, that if you would hear, you might say - that H is a bit of a jerk. We went to 3 counselors because when H could no longer stand a counselor and her conclusions that it was him we jumped to another. Of course, I felt vindicated through it all. I never said it out loud - but it was there - See? its all you H. Your the broke one!
But, I now know after much hard long introspection these past 2 months... these cheesy counselors did not dig deep enough...
to see that it was me. Even I did not see that until now.
What I know now... He was silent and non communicative because I made him feel that he could not do anything right. He did not help in the house, because if he did, it wasn't done well enough for me. Honestly, I really thought that I was just being helpful, ie, do it this way b/c it works better if you do it that way. And when he had enough and did it the way he wanted, I interpreted it as negating me and that hurt my feelings, that he did not respect me to even listen to me. So I would rant on and on about how that made me feel insignificant without giving proper acknowledgement that I was just being controlling. The counselors only saw a wife being shut down and ignored by her husband, and even they rode him to be more understanding. I felt justified having all these 'professionals' fully endorse my POV. It was like, "yeah, see? YOUR the broke one, so try harder!". And he did - he tried. And in our circle of push and push back - we both felt we were trying - but it was all in vain - we were just on a carousel of doing the wrong thing over and over. He started to completely shut me out, so I would push harder to elicit some response - any response - but that would make him retreat further. I kept thinking, 'what a jerk!' and cry and feel sorry for myself. And he was on the other side, probably thinking, I can not make her happy, I can't do anything right. And then he broke.
So. I see. I see it all - and I am full of regret. I was not being helpful, I was being controlling! This was my contribution to the demise. I will have to say he has responsibility too. He has a strong narcissistic side to him. So I know he is not perfect - but I can only focus on what I can fix about myself.
In the end, I do believe I broke him.
Wow. So much focus on him. You'll never ever make progress with this much focus on him. You have to bear down and forget about him. He's making choices that are selfish and are not in the best interest of those he is supposed to love. If he had acted like this when you first met him you would have told him to kick rocks. But now you're willing to put up with it. Ever stop to ask yourself why? I know you'd say you love him, but romantic love is not unconditional. There are things he could do that would cause you to toss him on his butt. Where is that line? Apparently he hasn't crossed that line yet, right? ....
One last thing. You can go your own way, do what comes naturally to you, and go through the same mistakes we all made. Or you can listen to us, those that have been through it and come out the other end. Some, like me, managed to save our marriages. Some ended up getting divorced. But we all saved ourselves!
- yes, he is crossing that line
After a beautiful Mothers Day, where he participated and even wanted to be with us as we went to Kerry Park and then to Alki to walk the beach, he snuck out (again) after he thought I was asleep. And I am devastated. Completely gutted.
And, I am so so afraid. All the threads I read here of when separation occurs sound so utterly full of pain - the very small interactions - hoping for texts and then agonizing whether to answer them. The dissecting of every moment spent and how to approach with DBing. And 'was this interaction handled right'? Reading into everything. So painful, too painful. Yet here I am in pain as well.
I think in my head that if he is here, he will see me and the changes and the effort, and will figure out that this other person is not what he wants. That the old adage 'he will never leave his wife to be with the mistress' is true and at the end of this he will come back. My mom went thru this, and I was about 16. He had an affair and it was awful for her. He didn't leave the house and in the end, he stopped seeing the OW, and it was just my parents again.
Reading the Mothers Day card he gave me, its like nothing has changed, we are a family again. And I am standing with one foot in how it used to be and what is going on now. And I don't know what to do. Is this part of 'in good times and in bad'? I don't know. I feel so alone at 4am, the pain is so intense - it just starts in your gut and radiates out to every extremity.
How can someone you trusted, and loved, and would do anything for - do this? How could he be with us and part of our happiness today, and then go and do this? we had a great sex life (before) so (I think) not that...was it because I hurt him so much? is it because of this MLC thing? Does he really find happiness in this OWs arms? or is it just a salve for whatever he is going thru? I don't have anyone to talk to - so I appreciate all your advice. I know exactly how Kate Spade felt.
Misty,
You only own your part of the demise of the relationship. If he wasn't happy w/what you were doing and/or saying, he should have spoken up. Many of us that post here are fixers and planners. Once a spouse has left the relationship, we jump into over drive and want to fix things immediately and we can't do that. The problems have to be resolved one at a time. The problems didn't happen over night, it took years in the making.
Now, if he's having a MLC, then the situation is very different because his childhood issues are bubbling up and that is something you are not responsible for. In MLC, that child/adult was stunted at an early age and now needs to go back and relive that part of his life and then continue to grow up. I have noticed that you have mentioned MLC several times...what makes you think he's having one? MLC's main ingredient is depression.
For now, step way back, give him space. No more relationship talks. If you have apologized to him about whatever you think you have done, then leave it be. Make a list of the things that you need to change about yourself and start doing them. You don't have to tell him that you love him or tell him that you are fixing yourself. Actions speak louder than words. Make a list of activities that you have put on the back burner and start working on them.
We are all human and yes, we all make mistakes. It's what we learn from those mistakes that makes us better people. Keep the focus on you, post often and above all else....dig deeper for patience.
M,
I want to start off by saying I’m so sorry for the pain you are going through right now.
It’s actually the complete opposite of what you are thinking. He needs time and space away from you to miss you. In house separation is very difficult especially when there is an affair. You want to get him out of the house as soon as possible. He’s cake eating right now and WS will eat cake until the cows come home.
Know that what you are feeling right now is normal and it is temporary. You will not always feel this way. In fact you will come out better and stronger.
Wow. So much focus on him. You'll never ever make progress with this much focus on him. You have to bear down and forget about him. He's making choices that are selfish and are not in the best interest of those he is supposed to love. If he had acted like this when you first met him you would have told him to kick rocks. But now you're willing to put up with it. Ever stop to ask yourself why? I know you'd say you love him, but romantic love is not unconditional. There are things he could do that would cause you to toss him on his butt. Where is that line? Apparently he hasn't crossed that line yet, right? ....
One last thing. You can go your own way, do what comes naturally to you, and go through the same mistakes we all made. Or you can listen to us, those that have been through it and come out the other end. Some, like me, managed to save our marriages. Some ended up getting divorced. But we all saved ourselves!
- yes, he is crossing that line
After a beautiful Mothers Day, where he participated and even wanted to be with us as we went to Kerry Park and then to Alki to walk the beach, he snuck out (again) after he thought I was asleep. And I am devastated. Completely gutted.
And, I am so so afraid. All the threads I read here of when separation occurs sound so utterly full of pain - the very small interactions - hoping for texts and then agonizing whether to answer them. The dissecting of every moment spent and how to approach with DBing. And 'was this interaction handled right'? Reading into everything. So painful, too painful. Yet here I am in pain as well.
I think in my head that if he is here, he will see me and the changes and the effort, and will figure out that this other person is not what he wants. That the old adage 'he will never leave his wife to be with the mistress' is true and at the end of this he will come back. My mom went thru this, and I was about 16. He had an affair and it w. He didn't leave the house and in the end, he stopped seeing the OW, and it was just my parents again.as awful for her
Reading the Mothers Day card he gave me, its like nothing has changed, we are a family again. And I am standing with one foot in how it used to be and what is going on now. And I don't know what to do. Is this part of 'in good times and in bad'? I don't know. I feel so alone at 4am, the pain is so intense - it just starts in your gut and radiates out to every extremity.
How can someone you trusted, and loved, and would do anything for - do this? How could he be with us and part of our happiness today, and then go and do this? we had a great sex life (before) so (I think) not that...was it because I hurt him so much? is it because of this MLC thing? Does he really find happiness in this OWs arms? or is it just a salve for whatever he is going thru? I don't have anyone to talk to - so I appreciate all your advice. I know exactly how Kate Spade felt.
Misty, yes unfortunately, pain is part of all of this. All of us here had to go through pain to get through our situations. Whether we ended up Ring or not, there is pain. As one that has been Ring for nearly 2 years now, trust me when I say that Ring is extremely painful. Especially early on. If you read my threads you will see that even in Ring there were struggles. There was second guessing. It was not a cake-walk. So many LBSs think that if they can just get their WAS to stay, to agree to R, and to recommit to the marriage that suddenly things are all normal again and it is as if the situation never happened. I can tell you from experience that is not the way it works. Unfortunately, R or D, there is going to be pain.
Many of us come here looking for that magic bullet to get out of pain. Many people come here and would even be open to just cutting and running IF that would end the pain. There are no shortcuts here. The feelings are real. The emotional roller-coaster is real. Most of the things it feels natural to do in order to end the pain will, in fact, prolong it.
And, I am so so afraid. All the threads I read here of when separation occurs sound so utterly full of pain - the very small interactions - hoping for texts and then agonizing whether to answer them. The dissecting of every moment spent and how to approach with DBing. And 'was this interaction handled right'? Reading into everything. So painful, too painful. Yet here I am in pain as well.
I think in my head that if he is here, he will see me and the changes and the effort, and will figure out that this other person is not what he wants. That the old adage 'he will never leave his wife to be with the mistress' is true and at the end of this he will come back. My mom went thru this, and I was about 16. He had an affair and it w. He didn't leave the house and in the end, he stopped seeing the OW, and it was just my parents again.as awful for her
I think what you are struggling with here is a false sense of control. You think if he stays in the house then you have some control. You do not. You even tell the story that he sneaked out again last night. The more you try to control the more he will rebel and the more you will be frustrated. And that will continue to cause you pain. But what I really think you need to get a handle on is your fear. Fear is, in my opinion, the number one enemy of DBing. I know in my own sitch, whenever I let fear rule my actions, I did the wrong things. When I dropped my fear and stuck to the anti-DBing principles espoused in the book and the fine folks in this forum, I moved forward.
So here is the thing. What I want to go back to above is the idea of having to go through pain. The good news is that no matter what happens, eventually the pain subsides. It is kind of like having to have surgery. The reason the short-term pain is bearable is because you know there will be a day when you are mended, healed up, and no longer in pain. None of us would go through surgery if the prognosis was being in pain forever. So you don't have to be afraid because the truth is that whether he stays or goes, you can look forward to a day when you are no longer in pain.
If you do not believe that, look at those of us that are on the other side of our situations. Whether they are someone that ended up D'd, or someone that ended up R'd. They all came through bigger and better.
One of the things that we espouse here is to look at your situation as an opportunity. You've identified ways you can improve, I see that reading through your responses. That's great! That is what you should be doing. Taking a step back, take a hard look at yourself, and become a better person. Prepare yourself for your next MR whether or not it is with him or someone else. And that is really what you need to focus on, making you the best you that you can be. If he takes note of that and changes his ways, great! If not, then you are set up for success going into a R with someone new.
But the best part about starting to focus on yourself is that your focus naturally comes off of him. And when you start focusing on yourself the pain will start to subside. It is a slow subside, but when you get good at GAL, 180ing (self-improvement) and detachment, you will slowly start to move from a place of pain to place of feeling good about yourself and feeling enabled.
I hear you...If I say this "I was too busy. From now on you are going to have to make your own food"... he will not appreciate that and will consider that very confrontational. If what I say does not please him, or irritates him in the least, he makes a point to get in my face and remind me that he is on razor edge of walking out that door. He knows that terrifies me. I don't know what to do to get over that. I am afraid to not make him dinner. Clearly, I have work to do on myself.
These situations rarely resolve while living under the same roof. So please accept that separation is likely, and even necessary before things may start to improve. I am not saying to kick him out, but I am saying the sooner you accept that S will probably happen then the sooner you can work on your fear of that. You need to get to the point where if this happens: "he makes a point to get in my face and remind me that he is on razor edge of walking out that door" then your response is "I would rather you stay and work on the M, but I understand that leaving is what you want and if that's the case, then you should leave." You do not say this in an angry tone, but rather, a loving but firm tone. If it's what he wants then don't try to force him to stay. WAS's feel trapped by their LBS. You have to "open the cage door". It's still his choice whether to leave the cage or not, you do not make that choice for him. You just open the door so that he knows he can choose for himself.
He is VERY ANGRY right now. It comes out of every pore in his face. scary angry.
Do you have any concerns that he may become physically abusive? Because if so, then you need to take action ASAP. This is a red flag that he may be unstable.
I don't know if its due to all the testosterone shots he is taking - or is this is an MLC thing?
Is he taking test as therapy through a doctor, or illegally? TRT (testosterone replacement therapy) is a pretty low dosage. But if he's taking it illegally for bodybuilding or whatever, and he doesn't know what he's doing, then he could be going through "roid rage" which is uncontrollable anger and even violence.
He very much enjoys hurting me. He will say cruel things and will openly smile when I breakdown and cry. When I see his possessed face, I get afraid, because I know what is coming, if its on, he will not relent. He is only satisfied once I am shaking / weeping and apologizing and telling him I will do better in the future. [b]Is this normal for a WAS/MLC???
Woah. How long has this been going on? Just since BD? Because please understand- you are being abused. This is a blatant example of emotional abuse.
I am ecstatic that he is doing counseling, but confused b/c he doesn't even enjoy talking to me. Can you offer some advice on this - its very confusing for me.
He's more than likely doing it to check off his list of "things I tried to save the marriage but that only proved it really was over". Michele's counselors are great though, so listen to him/ her and implement whatever advice they offer. I doubt it'll result in any change in your H short-term so don't have any expectations. But do keep going.
Job -
"I have noticed that you have mentioned MLC several times...what makes you think he's having one? MLC's main ingredient is depression."
I was told by my counselor that H was WAS and MLC based on what I told him - he has also had a session with H and has not changed that but focuses more on the MLC part.
LH19 -
You want to get him out of the house as soon as possible. He’s cake eating right now and WS will eat cake until the cows come home.
I can not do this, I can not push him out - just reading that I go into full blown anxiety attack. This is just too much for me, honestly, I have no idea how folks get thru this.
Steve -
Thank you. Your words are spot on - I am deep in fear. I agree. I am just getting into an Olympic sized pool of pain and i know I have to swim it - but right now I just don't want to. I have no words any more, I just want to fold up and give up. I am sorry for the 'poor me' routine. I am going to let myself have today to cry and shake off the last remnants of denial that this is even happening. Know that I am reading the thread, I am listening. I am letting it lay on my brain, it will sink in.
AnotherStander - He wont hurt me. And if he did, at least it would be over.
H is taking his counseling call with the DB counselor as I type.
Please let this day end better than it started.
Misty,
If you think it's more likely MLC, I suggest that you take some time and visit the MLC forum. The MLC forum has a lot of valuable information that may prove useful to you as you walk this path.
Try to remember that this is a marathon, not a sprint and once again, you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. He has to do the heavy lifting in fixing himself.
Steve -
Thank you. Your words are spot on - I am deep in fear. I agree. I am just getting into an Olympic sized pool of pain and i know I have to swim it - but right now I just don't want to. I have no words any more, I just want to fold up and give up. I am sorry for the 'poor me' routine. I am going to let myself have today to cry and shake off the last remnants of denial that this is even happening. Know that I am reading the thread, I am listening. I am letting it lay on my brain, it will sink in.
Misty, I like your analogy of the pool of pain! So good. Because you have too choices. Swim through it and come out better on the other end. Or give up and drown.
I am not sure if you are religious at all but have you ever read the book of Job in the Bible? Job went through incredible loss and pain. And he had people around him telling to curse God and die. But Job persevered, even when there were times when he did feel like giving up. And he came out the other end bigger and better for it! Sometimes we get to a place in life where we have quit growing and improving. And then something comes along to force us to do that. I think you are there now. Swim or sink. I think you will feel better about yourself and have no regrets if you commit to swimming!
AnotherStander - He wont hurt me. And if he did, at least it would be over.
Misty, are you saying you would prefer death over what you're going through? I know it's miserable, I've been there! But please please please understand that your life is VALUABLE, you are important to others, despite this mess you're going through your life DOES mean something. The hurt is absolutely horrible right now I know, but someday it will all seem like a bad dream.
Suicide is like a bad word in our society, but we should be able to talk about it openly and frankly. 2 or 3 months after BD I thought I was handling things pretty well and "recovered" when I was suddenly slammed with severe depression and anxiety without warning. My XW had been through depression before and said she felt like her insides were just a black hole, and man did I ever understand what she meant when I was going through it myself. I didn't feel pain or anger or happiness or anything, I just felt dead inside. And at that time I really thought that the best thing for my XW, myself and my kids was for me to be gone. I felt like everything was my fault, and with all the insurance I had on me they would be better off without me. THAT is the depression talking! I did what everyone should do in that situation- I went straight to my doctor and explained what I was going through. She evaluated me through an interview and some checklists, determined I was in situational depression and started me on a scrip for anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds. I really do think that saved my life. A couple of weeks later I felt much better, and a month later felt like my normal, pre-BD self. After a few months I weaned off with the help of the doc and I've never gone through depression since (about 8 years now).
If you or anyone else reading this are suicidal then please do not hesitate to seek medical assistance.
I hear you...If I say this "I was too busy. From now on you are going to have to make your own food"... he will not appreciate that and will consider that very confrontational. If what I say does not please him, or irritates him in the least, he makes a point to get in my face and remind me that he is on razor edge of walking out that door. He knows that terrifies me. I don't know what to do to get over that. I am afraid to not make him dinner. Clearly, I have work to do on myself.
This is called manipulation. He does it because it works. He makes you feel bad and you cave and try to please him. And he will tell you that if he does leave it's your fault. Does this sound like a nice man? A good man? Someone you want to be with?
I don't know if its due to all the testosterone shots he is taking - or is this is an MLC thing? He very much enjoys hurting me. He will say cruel things and will openly smile when I breakdown and cry. When I see his possessed face, I get afraid, because I know what is coming, if its on, he will not relent. He is only satisfied once I am shaking / weeping and apologizing and telling him I will do better in the future. [b]Is this normal for a WAS/MLC??? He was never like this before, does MLC do this to a man?
Take away his power. He enjoys hurting you and he can because right now it is all about him. The whole house revolves around him.
It's time to empower yourself. Study detachment and validation skills in the links. Right now you are operating out of pain and fear. It's normal and understandable. You didn't deserve this. But fear and pain are not our friends and will run our lives and betray us.
Yes, you left your phone in his car. it was't a good idea and i dont think you'll do it again. but how dare he judge you? He has lied and cheated. He isn't kind. He isn't forgiving but expects this of you. Open your eyes and see how he is treating you like a puppet and pulling his strings. It's time to develop your 180s and focusing on you.
If you think it's more likely MLC, I suggest that you take some time and visit the MLC forum. The MLC forum has a lot of valuable information that may prove useful to you as you walk this path.
I read a post you did years ago, about WAS vs MLC -- he seems more angry, so maybe more WAS. Honestly (and this is like having to pick between Ebola or Cancer) I would prefer he NOT be MLC - that sounds like a long hard path. And his childhood was apparently wonder whitebread, so hopefully not MLC.
I am not sure if you are religious at all ....
I would say yes, on the spiritual side for sure. And just started to dig deep into Scripture since I was seriously going off the rails yesterday. It has proven so helpful for me. I came across a realization. Every morning on the way to work, I would pray, to be a better wife, mother and daughter. And you should always be careful of what you pray for because I think He answered that prayer and using the actions of my husband to bring about needed changes in me, as a person. He is doing some serious pruning on me. "...will the clay say to the potter, 'What are you doing?" No, I will accept and I have found some comfort in this - and even though you all have said that I will come out a better person - I finally was ready to hear that and fully understand. I will not question Him.
He wont hurt me. And if he did, at least it would be over.
- no, sorry about that, I was in a very low space yesterday. I apologize and appreciate that you would take the time to notice and call me out on that. (where is the embarrassed emoji?!)
Oceangl - Yes, he is definitely in the one-up position. Though I think he has always thought I was the one-up for the past x years and he is now swinging hard, pendulum-ing as far to the other side as he can, to prove that he is not and will not tolerate being the one-down. I understand. Too much me is wrong, and too much him is wrong. I pray for balance to be found. This would never work long term - but I understand where he is coming from.
I will share that I am reading this 'How God can and will restore your marriage', its for women - and it has brought me much comfort thru Scripture. Not sure if I am allowed to post that. But this is where I am - shedding the 'poor me' attitude and embracing that this is my path - witnessed by all of you. To those that have replied and the moderators, you dont know that you rescue people with your words - like an ER of sorts. I feel like I have been triaged and chance for survival is high, though I felt pretty DOA not too long ago.
Good news for today (for me). He put his ring back on. (I know detach).
Just remember God doesn't sanction manipulation or emotional or verbal abuse.
Just as another thought: You can't compete with an affair or affair memory. Affairs are exciting and secretive. The partner can do no wrong. They have no laundry, kids, clogged toilets, trash to be taken out, homework to deal with -- in other words, it's all shiny and fake. It's not sustainable, either.
Marriages can be good, and fun, and have adventure, and love. But they can't be an affair. Affairs have no commitment. They are not built on your best self, or honor, or integrity. Not kindness, or encouragement. They don't go through hard times together.
For a long time I compared myself and felt like a failure. I don't want anyone else to waste time in that place.
So far....
I have let go of the affair - there is nothing I can do to stop it and it will have to come from him to do so. I am letting go of having to know anything - whether it be through snooping or asking directly. I will not ask about his feelings or about the relationship.
I see he is not wearing his ring today, he knows that I asked before for him to (mistakenly) - but whether he is actively baiting me or not - it is what it is.
What I can do, is while he is here, continue to show thru my actions that I have changed and am continuing to work on myself. I will not ask him what are his plans.
I am in a unique opportunity to be in quarantine with my kids, and before they usually were busy all the time with school and sports, and now I have them all to myself and have been enjoying hanging with them. I cook dinner for them while I listen to their talking to each other (and me). And while they eat, I clean up. If it works out that I can alter the meal or fix something partial for H as he is vegetarian, I do. We (kids and I) take rides together in the evening to pass the time.
I know last night H seemed like he was going to step out: he came to my room to say good night and ask if he could shut the door. And when I went for some water in the kitchen, he asked if I was turning in yet. Sigh. I climbed into bed later than I usually do (because of the anxiety). And when I heard noises (front door? garage door?) that sent me to to anxiety land, I turned to prayer until exhausted and out. I am human after all and this is all still very hard to go thru!
I did pick up Trazodone to help me sleep (and stay asleep). Will see, I am not a big fan of medicines.
If it works out that I can alter the meal or fix something partial for H as he is vegetarian, I do.
This is the only advice I can give. Stop doing this.
Otherwise, very well done!
Misty,
I'm not sure that I can offer much advice since we're both only a couple of months into this. But I can tell you that separation really isn't as difficult as you think it will be. In fact, it seems a lot easier than what you're going through and it can be very peaceful. The main source of your pain is his affair and his attitude to the marriage. Whether you are separated doesn't really change much.
I know that you're afraid that your husband will run off to the OW if he leaves and never come back. I know that you're also afraid that they'll start bonding more than they would if your husband is with you. But I'm not sure that separation actually increases those odds. In fact, it might even decrease them because your husband might start to miss you and the kids.
Also you do get used to being alone and you even get used to knowing that your spouse is with the OM/OW all the time. And after you get used to it, it doesn't hurt as much and there are less of those little indignities you're facing.
Spiral
Ms I wanted to move this discussion to your thread:
Focus on you. Keep GAL (being busy). Keep working on 180s (self improvement). And keep working on detachment. Get to a place where his actions and words have no impact on you.
Thanks for the advice, I wasn't sure if DB meant I should kick him out due to the active PA.
So.... this continues until what? I have no clue...wait... until he leaves, right?
this just socks.
MS, kicking him out, if it is something you can do (in most places it isn't legal to kick out a spouse, but you can ask that they leave). One of the biggest things we advocate here is to boot the cheating spouse out of the MBR. If I remember in your sitch he is already sleeping in another room.
But yes, I don't think there is anything wrong with telling him that due to his behavior that he is no longer welcome there.
MS, I know it sounds scary at first, but one of the best things I did in my sitch was to contact a lawyer and get a free consultation. It was empowering. It made the D process less scary (the unknown is scary). And when my W found out about it she realized just how serious I was becoming about moving on. Don't do it for that last reason. In fact, don't even tell him you did it. That should be a side-effect, not the goal.
Unfortunately, these things are rarely over quickly. We moved to Ring in about 4 months. But that was unusually fast and there were a lot of unique circumstances that got us there. Most of these things take over a year, and many go on for many years. Unfortunately, WASs are not as motivated to do the legal processes and paperwork as they are at As and acting as if they are already single. Often times the filing of the actual D falls to the LBS who eventually realizes that there is no other alternatives and they've waited for their WAS long enough.
I'm not sure that I can offer much advice since we're both only a couple of months into this. But I can tell you that separation really isn't as difficult as you think it will be. In fact, it seems a lot easier than what you're going through and it can be very peaceful. The main source of your pain is his affair and his attitude to the marriage. Whether you are separated doesn't really change much.
I know that you're afraid that your husband will run off to the OW if he leaves and never come back. I know that you're also afraid that they'll start bonding more than they would if your husband is with you. But I'm not sure that separation actually increases those odds. In fact, it might even decrease them because your husband might start to miss you and the kids.
Also you do get used to being alone and you even get used to knowing that your spouse is with the OM/OW all the time. And after you get used to it, it doesn't hurt as much and there are less of those little indignities you're facing.
- This is really helpful - I have to say I am pretty impressed that you can read my post and be so spot-on on where I am at - I am full of fear on every point you mentioned. I plan on printing out your response and reading it often in the hopes that the logic in your post will slice through all my thinking that is so fear/emotional based.
you even get used to knowing that your spouse is with the OM/OW all the time
That is just awful! I can't believe one could get used to that. I can feel the cells in my body just start to breakdown when I read that. But I know that would be what happens - he would be with the OW. I am slowly trying to immerse myself in that thought instead of fighting it.
Thank you Spiral - best to you in your situation - thanks for the advice
Misty,
You're only assuming what his response is going to be if you set boundaries. You don't know what his response will be until you do (and hold firm after the initial angry outburst). I know that setting boundaries can really speed situations up (or at least it did for me). But there are certainly cases where the OM/OW doesn't actually want their affair partner to move in or where it will blow up quickly after they do. You never know, your situation could be one of those. If that happens, you'll have momentum in your favor. And if he does move out, it just doesn't seem that much worse than your current situation.
Also firm boundaries force your spouse to treat you nicely when they are in your presence cause you can always tell them to go home or walk away. Of course, all I actually know is that what happened to me wasn't as bad as I was afraid it was going to be (although I definitely took action before considering the consequences since I was trying to regain control of the situation and wasn't expecting her to pick the OM). But I have to think that it hurts a lot more as you spend your sleepless night waiting for him to come home.
Also, if his name is on the lease or the deed, you cannot make him leave without a court order. And he cannot make you do anything during divorce proceedings without a court order and most everyone ends up settling their disputes rather than going to trial. I guarantee you that you are in control of a whole lot more than you think you are and most of the things you're afraid of you don't need to be afraid of.
The nightmare already happened. We just need to learn how to accept it. And both of our situations will come out for the best - we just don't know if the best will include our spouses.
Spiral
What does one do when living with a WAS that is eating cake at home. Go on an RV trip down the Oregon coast.
The kids in their want to help fix this, put together a pretty elaborate presentation for us to go on a trip. I left it up to H and he said yes. Of course, later after the kids were gone, he reamed me that I set him up. I really didnt, he had the opportunity to say no - and I let the kids know that was a real possibility - and he said yes. He never wants to be the bad guy.
So - I am DBing while in super tight quarters in an RV - with two teenagers that are bearing down on me on how things are going - and a 16 yr old DD that has input on all I do or say (Mom! dont complain about the coffee!! - when I sent back coffee to the barista). Right now I am a mess on the inside - anxious if I am DB'ing well - while the kids think I am give the H the silent treatment. They just want us to be loving towards eachother - I get that. I am trying to please too many people right now - all with different opinions on how I should be. Its exhausting.
When will the soul crushing pain start to subside? I think if I had access to heroine I would become a dedicated user. I never understood why someone would use that stuff - NOW I completely understand.
I see people that have landed on this forum after I got here - and have surpassed me in growth. Even though you all are holding up signs that this is not the right way to go, I still am meandering down the love conquers all path. Ugh. I am still full on in love with him.
I wish had better things to post. I wish I could say I was moving on. But this is where I am right now. I hope to post better things soon.
So..... Your soon to be ex reams you for something you didn't do, and you are considering an all out love blitzkrieg to win him back.
Your life. Your marriage. Your decision. But in the 100s of situations we've seen here, I can't think of a single one that ended in reconciliation by the LBS going down the "love conquers all" path. Maybe yours will be the 1 in million. More likely a year from now you'll be wishing you world have followed the advice here like so many others that chose to do things the intuitive way.
We talk to LBHs all the time about Nice Guy Syndrome. Both there is also stuck thing as Nice Girl Syndrome. You should look it up. See if the signs fit you, and then look into the methods for overcoming it. (Hint: trying to please everyone around you ain't it!)
M,
I am really sorry you are struggling today.
Unfortunately the way Hollywood portrays the love conquers all story that is why you and your daughter believe it’s the way to go. Sadly it’s not the case and I wish it was for you and your family. Not you certainly can try that scenario but more then likely it will make him uneasy a run like when you chase a cat.
The correct thing to do is the exact opposite. You take the attitude of “oh you think you’ll be better off without me well then have it”. Then you go out a live an awesome life. The reality is most men are not happier divorced. Within a couple years he’ll look and realize he didn’t have it so bad and look back in your direction. Ultimately you’ll have final say in the matter.
As for full blown love it’s just not the case. It’s your brain looking for stability and it thinks you will get that stability back by getting your husband to confess his undying love for you. This is not the case and is just an illusion.
No that one way or another the pain will subside and you will be happy again.
Be kind and patient to yourself Misty Sea.
What does one do when living with a WAS that is eating cake at home. Go on an RV trip down the Oregon coast.
The kids in their want to help fix this, put together a pretty elaborate presentation for us to go on a trip. I left it up to H and he said yes. Of course, later after the kids were gone, he reamed me that I set him up. I really didnt, he had the opportunity to say no - and I let the kids know that was a real possibility - and he said yes. He never wants to be the bad guy.
So - I am DBing while in super tight quarters in an RV - with two teenagers that are bearing down on me on how things are going - and a 16 yr old DD that has input on all I do or say (Mom! dont complain about the coffee!! - when I sent back coffee to the barista). Right now I am a mess on the inside - anxious if I am DB'ing well - while the kids think I am give the H the silent treatment. They just want us to be loving towards eachother - I get that. I am trying to please too many people right now - all with different opinions on how I should be. Its exhausting.
When will the soul crushing pain start to subside? I think if I had access to heroine I would become a dedicated user. I never understood why someone would use that stuff - NOW I completely understand.
I see people that have landed on this forum after I got here - and have surpassed me in growth. Even though you all are holding up signs that this is not the right way to go, I still am meandering down the love conquers all path. Ugh. I am still full on in love with him.
I wish had better things to post. I wish I could say I was moving on. But this is where I am right now. I hope to post better things soon.
Oh MS, What a tough situation.
I see a need for a lot of boundaries here, and some perspective. You and your teenagers are both caught up in a lot of fear, and fear causes us to accept things we normally wouldn't, and to try to please everyone. Your teenagers seem to know there are problems in the MR. Do they know about OW?
First, do you have a notebook? Buy one on one of your stops. Maybe also a novel. Something you can spend some time with. Writing and reading. Write down your goals and hopes for yourself. Write down the things about you that make you a catch. One thing I did was write down some of the things my H had done to me or said to me that were awful. Then, when I started to cave to Ms. Nice Girl or when I would start taking all the blame, I would read it and think, oh yeah, wow, that's a lot. He hasn't been very nice to me.
He's not being nice to you. He blames everything on you. Why do we allow that? I think you need to not only set boundaries with him, but with your teens. Can you take the aside for a walk alone? And with love say, what is going on? I think you guys are scared. I am, too. I don't want to lose my family, either. But I can't control anyone else's actions, and you may not realize it, but you're putting an awful lot of pressure on me for the marriage to work, and it's making things so painful for me. It might be best to acknowledge the elephant in the RV without casting blame on anyone. Just validating their feelings.
Keep reminding yourself of your worth, and because of that, you won't make decisions out of fear. I will take my own advice today.
MS, I can completely relate to where you are at right now. You are stuck between feeling hopeful/wanting things to be better and the reality that no, you are actually just stuck in an RV with minute-to-minute reminders of what is wrong. It is SO painful, SO heartbreaking, SO hurtful. So many hugs to you right now. You are not alone.
I don't remember which thread I read this on, and I am going to probably mess up on the exact words, but someone asked another person whether they were in love with their spouse or in love with the idea of their marriage. This stood out to me and during some tough moments I have really had to ask myself that question... am I really in love with this person who is hurting me so much? Am I in love with the 'old' them (who likely is not coming back in the same form even if we do work things out)? Or am I just really in love with the security and stability that our marriage brings to my life and my family? I don't have the answer for myself here, but asking myself that question often has helped me get my head just enough above water to catch a breath and keep moving forward in that moment.
And as hard as it is, we are all just putting one foot in front of the other. That is all you need to do. One step at a time. It can be tiny, you might take a few steps back, but just keep lifting that foot and placing it in front of you.
Really appreciate the support and all the advice. Sunday was my 23rd Anniversary. I did the best I could do in this situation, in the RV, with the kids, with the pain of where my marriage is at.
As
Sage4 commented
One step at a time. It can be tiny, you might take a few steps back, but just keep lifting that foot and placing it in front of you.
I am just doing that, inching along - so thank you for acknowledging that even though I am not doing what I
should be doing - I am doing what I CAN do right now. I may regret it later, that I didnt do x or y, but I am really broken - and have to be kind to myself when I can, usually I am beating myself up about something/anything.
You take the attitude of “oh you think you’ll be better off without me well then have it”. Then you go out a live an awesome life. The reality is most men are not happier divorced. Within a couple years he’ll look and realize he didn’t have it so bad and look back in your direction. Ultimately you’ll have final say in the matter.
- this was a great read to me, hard to digest the 'years' part, but just reading that portion about thinking he will be better off without me, 'well then have it' - has helped me, I say it under my breath to myself - and just saying it feels really empowering - and I need that right now.
On our anniversary- there was an exchange of cards - nothing heavy at all - he thanked me for the good times and we raised 2 great kids. Mine was light. I thought the trip went well, in my opinion - the kids really had a great time amazingly and he was really tuned into being kind to them.
He is so up and down - nice then sooo not nice. This is strange, I make him coffee every morning in the RV, without his asking - and he never acknowledged that I did it or that he appreciated it. So Monday morning, I was blue - I could not muster a chipper good morning to his and I didnt make him coffee. He was trying to get the kids in gear to move and make it an early morning, but did not want to be the bad guy about it, and they were not moving (they are teens). I knew he wanted me to jump in and take care of it, but I did not- I just did not feel like doing that for him. So he left the RV.
I caught up with him post his walk. I knew something was up. This is what I don't get. He was genuinely hurt about the coffee & how I treated him that morning - I just dont get it. He was focusing on this & was hurt that I did not make him coffee or was not my usual self (really not my usual self - just how I FORCE myself to be). Anyway, I don't get it - he is ripping my heart out through my nose - and he is going to confront me on coffee making???!!! I was just about to blow! I didn't though - calmness prevailed. Why I mention this is because -
there is something to all this - he comes off as the big bad wolf but really he is hurting inside and what I do or say DOES affect him!! That just made an impression on me that I thought I would share.
And ... please dont think I am a wallflower...I do have an end to my patience. After the kids (I did not stop them) were riling him about not getting me anything for pretty much any anniversary, he put on his mad face towards me, which would usually mean I need to shrink and back down. But this time I told him that I was getting tired of him bullying me. That just because he did not like what he heard, does not mean he gets the liberty of scowling at me to scare me. He was shocked at that. I suggested we use that d.e.a.r. technique - and it did help him to see my perspective. That was good.
I REALLY dont think any of this is going to amount to a hill of beans in the end . Oh, I would love for him to work this out - but this guy has other things going on in his head - and having a OW whispering sweet nothings and sheer adorations - is not helping. What I have learned on this board (just recently), is that you could do everything right per DB rules - and they still leave you. The wisdom being taught here is to detach detach detach so when it does happen, your just a bit more prepared.
Thanks everyone for helping me get thru this past weekend. I re-read all your posts several times, I appreciate you folks out there that got it & me, supported me with encouragement, and also
Steve, who really really wants me to wake up.
I REALLY dont think any of this is going to amount to a hill of beans in the end . Oh, I would love for him to work this out - but this guy has other things going on in his head - and having a OW whispering sweet nothings and sheer adorations - is not helping. What I have learned on this board (just recently), is that you could do everything right per DB rules - and they still leave you. The wisdom being taught here is to detach detach detach so when it does happen, your just a bit more prepared.
Even if you do everything 100% perfectly starting today, this is still a months/years-long turnaround.
When you live with someone, there is a huge motivation to keep the peace. Everyone wants peace in their lives. If you blew up over every little thing that happened between you, you would both be miserable.
As such, you push things down and gloss over them as you live together, and the consequence of that is that resentment builds.
If resentment builds too much over time, eventually it becomes "too much" and people start contemplating an exit from the relationship. During this period, the relationship is really "on trial" but the other party is usually totally unaware of it.
Once the trial is over and the person has more or less resolved to leave, you're on the tail end of a years long process. It goes "things are overall good, but this stuff is annoying" -> "These things are really annoying but not bad enough that I want to leave" -> "These things are really annoying and I don't know if I can stay" -> "These things are really annoying and now I have to get out"
Unfortunately, in many cases the "annoying things" were never even articulated, or if they were, not with enough gravity. Once the "I need to leave" point is reached, whatever those things are get magnified (the coffee incident) and new ones get invented to help convince the departing partner that they are making the right choice, its an act in self-reinforcement which sometimes requires lots of fabrication.
Over time, you have *trained each other* what to expect from the other. He knows how you will react to any given situation, what you will say, how you will act, and he has decided that's not compatible with what he wants.
If you decide you don't want that either, and decide to make a change for yourself, initially he'll think you're just doing it as a gambit to get him back and as soon as he lets her guard down, you'll revert to who you "really are" in terms of who you've trained him that you are.
In order to turn this around he needs to *fully believe* that you've changed, and that you're not doing it just to get him back.
How do you convince him of that?
(1) Repetition, lots and lots of repetition in terms of reacting differently, acting differently, than you have historically.
(2) Acting differently when no one is looking
(3) Finding a life for your new self that doesn't require her. That's the only way you make it credible that your changes are for you. He won't even see them until she believes that you don't need him.
As a WAS, they will often displace blame on the LBS because they need to give themselves some relief, so eventually they are angry at you for what you did, and then they are angry at you again for what they did.
If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless?
Can you see why if you address their past complaints *now* it just makes them angrier at you?
The three biggest things he's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what he's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing him to this point.
Everything you do right now is going to make him either more resentful, or less resentful.
If you increase his guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, he's going to resent you more.
If you pursue him, argue with her, or try to convince him to work with you on the marriage, he's going to resent you for not letting him go and not giving him the space he wants.
If you immediately address all her historic complaints, he's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.
If you give him space, it’s going to make him less resentful.
If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make him less resentful.
If you are respectful in your communications with him, but not intimate, it’s going to make him less resentful.
*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.
*Eventually* he will process his anger at you and it will dissipate.
UNTIL he goes through both of those processes, he will not see you as anything other than he believes you to be based on his prior training.
If he thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, he's still going to think of you as the girl that wears blue, because he literally can't see you right now.
WHILE he is processing his anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.
If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.
While his anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.
When eventually he's had enough time and space that he can SEE YOU again, he'll be surprised by what she sees, and he'll question for the first time the assumptions he has held about you.
THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take him to process his anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.
Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.
That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.
^^^^^THIS^^^^^
Cannot tell you how many times I've read this ^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! That really makes things clear. Excellent post.
-Spiral
LH, that post was outstanding.
What an amazing post! Thanks for sharing with us LH!
LH - I have bought many books, I have listened to audio tapes & podcasts, I have had DB counseling....but THIS IS THE BEST AND MOST CLEAR advice that just crystallizes exactly what is going on with the WAS for the LBS ... all in one post.
Everyone should read this -
THANK YOU LH!!! 
You’re welcome. It’s just information I’ve gathered over the last fives years on the WW/LBS dynamic.
I'll keep this with me, to read and re-read when I feel like I'm going crazy.
Thank you so much!
I was thinking how much I wish I could have read this post 6 months back, then I had to remind myself how completely oblivious I was to how bad things had actually become from my W's perspective. An excellent explanation of what is happening during the lead up to BD Day, and what the only remedy is once that point is reached. IMHO the post would be a nice addition to the welcome post which greets us after our first posting.
LH - What do you do with a WAS spouse that is having a EA/PA actively while living with you at home?
Do you ask him to leave?
If I do, I know he is just going to run straight into her arms. Then what? Then how will he see any changes or burn thru that resentment when he will have started a 'new' life, and be filling his mind with the OW. To me that would just prolong it all.
If I can tolerate what he is doing (which is so so painful) will he just eventually come back? Its hard for me to understand how, if he is not here, will he see any changes?
What have you seen that works?
LH - What do you do with a WAS spouse that is having a EA/PA actively while living with you at home?
Do you ask him to leave?
If I do, I know he is just going to run straight into her arms. Then what? Then how will he see any changes or burn thru that resentment when he will have started a 'new' life, and be filling his mind with the OW. To me that would just prolong it all.
If I can tolerate what he is doing (which is so so painful) will he just eventually come back? Its hard for me to understand how, if he is not here, will he see any changes?
What have you seen that works?
Your best bet would be to ask him to leave and drive him right into her arms. You can easily convince yourself that this advice is ridiculous, overblown, not necessary in your case, etc etc but in reality you're feeling that it's too scary. Sit with that for a while -- analyze the fear. Look at it from different angles and understand it. What are you afraid of and why? Your fear holds you back and must be dealt with.
Do you know when you are 100% most likely to reconcile effectively?
When you no longer care if you do or not.
That's the honest and sad truth. Reconciliation requires a level playing field, an even starting line. BOTH of you need to be willing to walk and to believe the other one will leave. That makes you something worth having.
You are micro-focused in your questions above -- you need a big picture view.
Your very best chance of turning this around is as follows:
-- Do not do anything to support or enable his affair
-- Do not tolerate having it go on before you, kick the elephant out of the room. Don't be punishing about it, just remove yourself from situations where you are being disrespected
-- Ask him to move out. Do NOT co-habitate with a cheater. It's TOO HARD to save your marriage effectively in that context
-- Talk to a lawyer immediately, hope for the best but prepare for the worst. Begin accepting that you have to completely let him go in order to get her back
-- Tell him you will not support him if you are no longer acting as a married couple.
Is this harsh? Does it seem crazy? Is it like stepping off a cliff? I guarantee you'll look back two years from now and regret that you didn't do these things -- I guarantee that.
Don't want to hijack your thread but I asked him to leave. In front of her.
He doesn't want to leave.
He doesn't really know if he wants a divorce or not.
And the OW asks him to divorce as soon as possible or she'll no longer speaks to him. B..it.
He still doesn't know what's best for him and doesn't see a future for us.
LH19, you're an inspiration
M: 56, H:56
M:32, T:36
D31, D20
OW 33
darkhair,
Please create a thread of your own so that we can be of assistance to you. You have been on moderation since December 2011 and I would like to remove you from moderation so that the moderators do not have to approve/disapprove every one of your postings because of the moderation status.
Sorry for the hi-jack.
If I can tolerate what he is doing (which is so so painful) will he just eventually come back? Its hard for me to understand how, if he is not here, will he see any changes?
Misty Sea I would love to be able to tell you with 100% certainty that he will come back.
You can own and address and pick up the pieces from your own shortcomings and bad decisions. You can't fix the mess your husband has wrought. Your best path forward is to get away from him right now. Drop the rope. That is your only chance of having him come back around. Make it worse in order to make it better, it's the shortest path.
The path of half-measures leads to prolonged limbo and agony.
In the mean time if you want him (or anyone else) to feel safe in this regard, then you need to have a wonderful life on your own. If you have provided for your own emotional needs and are living a life that makes you happy, then you don't need to hang anything over his head, because you really don't *need* him for anything.
He's in your life because you want him to be, not because you need him to be. You're his partner, not his dependent.
The nice thing about that scenario is that his knows if he doesn't hold up his end of the bargain as your partner, that you don't need him and are able to leave him behind while maintaining your wonderful life.
What kind of behavior do you think that will motivate?
Your husband is walking down the street at night and stops between two houses. From one house comes the sound of crying, wailing, and breaking glass. The other house seems to have a party going on and he can hear music and laughter and sounds of friendship. Which house does he want to enter?
If your life is full of warmth, laughter and friendship he won't be able to stay away, and even if he does you won't miss him.
So, I did end up confronting him even though we agreed to speak tonight, I let him know that I would have had a little more respect for him if he had at least tried to hide leaving last night (like he used to). I don't know why him hiding it made me feel better, but in some way I thought he was at least trying to protect my feelings.
What I am most confused about, out of that conversation, is that he says he just sees us as good friends, that's all..nothing more. That he just does not have 'those' feelings for me anymore.
I don't get it. Isn't being 'good friends' after 23 years a good thing? I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this. Am I off the mark? if so, please tell me. Otherwise is he just making excuses - with nothing else to say?
I don't get it. Isn't being 'good friends' after 23 years a good thing? I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this. Am I off the mark? if so, please tell me. Otherwise is he just making excuses - with nothing else to say?
Well ultimately you would like the passion to still be there but for that to happen you need to work on it. He is getting all the excitement from the his affair partner but that will eventually fizzle out. One of the problems MS is that he has no fear of losing you. How can you change that?
What I am most confused about, out of that conversation, is that he says he just sees us as good friends, that's all..nothing more. That he just does not have 'those' feelings for me anymore.
I don't get it. Isn't being 'good friends' after 23 years a good thing? I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this. Am I off the mark? if so, please tell me. Otherwise is he just making excuses - with nothing else to say?
Hi Misty,
I'm so sorry you're here and going through this. I just wanted to pipe in with a couple of thoughts:
-- my H gave me word-for-word some of the same things you're getting, no emotional connection, can never get that back, blah blah blah, even though he still saw me as his best friend. He said the same thing about me fighting for my "life" and that he was being open to possibilities by not leaving. They are following the same script. Your H is stuck in the limerence/fantasy of his A and no real-life relationship can ever compete. So don't try.
-- the thing that struck me in your last question is "I have nothing for rebuttal when he says this"... you shouldn't be arguing with him, trying to convince him, or rebutting his statements. That is not DB-ing. Validate him (or even better, just avoid the conversation altogether). When he is saying these things that sound so crazy, this is really how he feels at the moment. When you argue against him, you're just showing that you don't really get it. This was a really, really hard thing for me to get through my skull. My H somehow, weirdly, REALLY needed me to understand how he felt for his AP vs how he felt for me. I probably ended up getting more of it than I needed to because I did spend a lot of time, especially earlier on, getting drawn into R talks where I argued exactly your point, plus the kids and we had this before, we can get it back, isn't it worthwhile to try, etc. etc. None of this got through. He just isn't in a place to hear it. I would try to stop those conversations generally and if you get drawn into one, practice some stock validation or delay phrases to avoid telling him how you feel right now.
-- in terms of kicking him out, you might be interested in reading through my thread when I was in the same situation (though my H's AP was long-distance, so he couldn't have actually ran to her physically but she was definitely there for him emotionally, wanted to have his baby, all of that. BLECH.) I had really resisted him leaving-- that was my big boundary that I felt I'd never be able to forgive him for if he crossed--and it wasn't until I found out he had been in a 2-year long PA (previously had thought much shorter and EA only) that I told him to get out and meant it. In my case, he actually refused, although he'd been saying for months he wanted to MO. Then when I opened the door he refused to go (and legally I found out I couldn't make him). I also started researching D, getting all our financial information together, etc. In my case,I do think that was a really important part of what has ended up happening-- him seeing I was really ready to move on with my life without him. I think that is a critical step in DBing with one major caveat-- if and only if you're really there and can back up what you're saying. Don't threaten to kick him out if you don't mean it. You might re-read the LRT section of DR. Find your boundary and where you draw the line, communicate that to him, and then stick to it. Don't tell him he needs to MO and then backtrack if he actually starts down that path-- that is just teaching him he can do whatever he wants without consequence. But if you're really through with him sneaking out to sleep with AP, I think you should tell him to go.
--if you decide you can live with what he's doing, MWD does say you can leave it, but really focus on yourself, GALing, and do not ask him about it or talk about the R at all. There is a chapter in her infidelity book about this that was helpful for me. You might also read Wayfinder's thread, who has basically taken this path-- decided it wasn't in the best interest of her girls to boot him out and therefore did not. I think this path is not for the faint of heart. You really, really need to be able to detach emotionally and focus on yourself if you do this, and I think it is very difficult for most people. But if you can, MWD does have a path for sticking it out this way. The rules are not that dissimilar, but you get zero breaks because you have to be DBing all the time with your H right in your face. I think this is why most vets don't recommend this path. I kind of took this path when he refused to MO--I know I could have forced him out if I really wanted to (I could have thrown all his stuff on the front lawn, for instance) and I didn't. I did set a deadline, basically six weeks from when I found out about the PA he was going to see her in person and I needed a decision one way or the other by then. I don't believe I could have gone much longer than that without breaking. It was very, very difficult and I completely empathize with what you're going through.
--Finally... if he doesn't leave, i would definitely stop the coffee making, special vegetarian meal cooking, etc behavior. Why, oh why, would you do that for a cheating a-hole of a husband? Someone on this board said to me when I was in a similar place to you that really stuck with me -- your H is NOT being a friend right now. Why are you saying you're still best friends? Friends don't lie to you. They also don't scream in your face until you are shaking and crying and walk out the door when you aren't up to making them coffee one time. Put yourself in his shoes-- what are you teaching him? I would really work on drawing the line for what you will and will not tolerate if he is going to be living in your house for now, and then if he does start something that crosses the line like yelling at you, stop the conversation and walk away. (Maybe he isn't doing that anymore-- I think I got that from the beginning of your thread-- but generally I would refrain from doing nice wife-like things for him. He isn't being your H right now, so don't treat him like one.)
Hang in there. I know it is excruciating. It DOES get better, one way or the other. You might also spend some time really getting comfortable with the idea of what D might be like, and read some of the threads on here of folks who split up and are happier than they've ever been. You didn't ask for this, you don't deserve it, but it is happening and now it is up to you to decide how you want to handle it.
May22!They are following the same script. Your H is stuck in the limerence/fantasy of his A and no real-life relationship can ever compete. So don't try.
I read part of your thread, looks like your H made the decision to end the A - mine is still in full EA/PA while living with me - and I am coming to terms with that. He "says" he has no love for the OW. And has no plans for a relationship with her. He could be lying, I don't know. He is seeing her while staying here - all the while telling me that he can compartmentalize and stay in this marriage. I am going to talk to the DB counselor tomorrow morning, who also told me before to just let it ride.
I see you put a timeline on it, 6 weeks right? Do you think I should put a time limit on this situation? Also you said "so don't try" --- what does this mean? Am I SOL until the A is over?I just met with a divorce lawyer this morning - I too need to get my financial information in order - I will need his help with that
so maybe this is a right time to approach H on that matter? - which also lets him know I am moving in a different direction as well.
I had really resisted him leaving-- that was my big boundary that I felt I'd never be able to forgive him for if he crossed
This is exactly how I feel!! if he does leave, then that abandonment would set me over the edge for sure.
MWD does say you can leave it, but really focus on yourself, GALing, and do not ask him about it or talk about the R at all. There is a chapter in her infidelity book about this that was helpful for me.
This is good to know, overwhelmingly the advice here has been to boot him out -
I will look for the infidelity book, or is it in the DB book? generally I would refrain from doing nice wife-like things for him. He isn't being your H right now, so don't treat him like one.
Yes, I agree on this point. I resent doing his laundry, so that is out. And having him walk out on me during the week, is for sure going to stir resentment, so I imagine things dropping off my list of to-do's for him.
I do not disagree that this is the more painful route - to have this happen all right in front of you. I will check out Wayfinders thread to understand more of what I am getting into. Thank you for that suggestion. I am entering this with much trepidation. I know I can not ask him to leave, so I really have not left myself with much choice.
You might also spend some time really getting comfortable with the idea of what D might be like
No can do, I get anxiety attacks just thinking about that. I am not ready for that. Call it avoidance, I don't know - but I can not wrap my head around that processing.
May22 - can I ask? How did you move from 'he could not see you in an intimate way again? I read in your thread that you made that transition but how? My H also said he did not see me 'that' way anymore and does not touch me (I am attractive & thin) but he just won't - will go out of his way not to. What is going on in his mind? is he bizarrely being faithful to the OW? how can I get him to see me differently? I don't want to be in the friend zone.
Thanks for all the input - its honestly getting me thru the day - even reading things that are hard because it helps me to keep moving...today was really hard, between the stepping out last night blatantly and the lawyer call.
Calling the lawyer is a good thing for you to do. Knowledge is power. But sleep on whether you want to pull that card right now. It could be the ‘out’ he is looking for. Are you really ready for that? From your posts, I don’t think you are.
I have done the same thing (talked to a lawyer, though didn’t retain one). For me, having that information helped me understand what I would be up against. But deep down, I wasn’t ready to make an ultimatum. And the longer I have sat within my situation, the more I realized that I didn’t want to be the one to actually file or move forward on that path. In some ways, leaving it up to him takes it out of my hands. It’s already a terrible position that your H has put you in, make him be the one to suffer the consequences of actually legally leaving your marriage.
I know that May (and others) have had a different experience with S and H leaving the home. I was scared to death of H leaving. It felt like just one more step towards the end of our M. But 6 weeks in to our S and I can say that it wasn’t the worst thing to have happened. I was a shell of a human those last few months living under the same roof, dealing with the minute-to-minute rejection, stonewalling and hurtful words. It was AGONY. And although the agony isn’t completely gone, the breathing room has allowed me to finally get closer to detaching. I am slowly reclaiming my value.
I see some similarities in our situations and for me, I now recognize that our R had absolutely no hope if we were to remain under the same roof. I am seeing tiny little flickers of hope right now. Nothing to write about, but certainly more than we could have accomplished living together.
Each of us has our own path to forge in this process. You will find yours.
May22
I read part of your thread, looks like your H made the decision to end the A - mine is still in full EA/PA while living with me - and I am coming to terms with that. He "says" he has no love for the OW. And has no plans for a relationship with her. He could be lying, I don't know. He is seeing her while staying here - all the while telling me that he can compartmentalize and stay in this marriage. I am going to talk to the DB counselor tomorrow morning, who also told me before to just let it ride.I see you put a timeline on it, 6 weeks right? Do you think I should put a time limit on this situation?
Well, my H had a 2 plus year full on PA while living with me. I just didn't know about it the whole time. She lives on the other side of the country, so he didn't see her very much-- average every other month, probably-- but it was very intense. He only made the decision to end the A after it was all out on the table. He also "tried" to end the A (before I knew about it) many times during the entire second year. He also told me about being good at compartmentalizing and that he just had an "emotional connection" to her but that he didn't think he'd end up with her if we Ded... it wasn't until the very end I found out just how deep he was in.
I don't know that I'd put a timeline on it unless you are really ready to walk at the end of it. I was. It was related to the fact that he was going to travel to her city 6 weeks after he confessed the full extent of the A and I knew I couldn't handle him being in her city without some resolution. You might have a timeline in your head for how long you can deal with your current situation, but I wouldn't force it. You need to figure out what YOU need in order to cope and heal and be sane. I think that is the most important part of this entire process-- removing the focus from him and what you might do or not do in order to get him to do something (or not)-- do what you need to do for YOURSELF without giving a $hit about what it may or may not cause him to do. It isn't about him anymore. He has checked out. It is about you now, and your kids. What is best and healthiest for you at this point?
Also you said "so don't try" --- what does this mean? Am I SOL until the A is over?
Have you read about the ping-pong analogy? That you and the AP are playing a game of ping-pong and it won't end until one of you drops the paddle? I mean, be the one to drop the paddle.
I just met with a divorce lawyer this morning - I too need to get my financial information in order - I will need his help with that so maybe this is a right time to approach H on that matter? - which also lets him know I am moving in a different direction as well
I'd do it on your own. If he notices you doing it or you really need his help with something, ask him specific questions to get the answers you need. But don't, I repeat do not, use this as a means to try to get him to see the light. He will see right through that, and/or he'll respond in a way that will hurt. Do it only to get the information you need to make good decisions for yourself and the kids.
I had really resisted him leaving-- that was my big boundary that I felt I'd never be able to forgive him for if he crossed
This is exactly how I feel!! if he does leave, then that abandonment would set me over the edge for sure.
I know that May (and others) have had a different experience with S and H leaving the home. I was scared to death of H leaving. It felt like just one more step towards the end of our M. But 6 weeks in to our S and I can say that it wasn’t the worst thing to have happened. I was a shell of a human those last few months living under the same roof, dealing with the minute-to-minute rejection, stonewalling and hurtful words. It was AGONY. And although the agony isn’t completely gone, the breathing room has allowed me to finally get closer to detaching. I am slowly reclaiming my value.
I think Sage has a really good point here. For me, the day-to-day with my H was actually very positive, I think partially because at that point I'd been DB-ing for eight months, he'd been in IC for a year, and between those two things we'd dealt with most of day-to-day issues. We were getting along quite well. I know that isn't the case for most people. If I'd found out about the A earlier on, when we were fighting all the time and I could feel the resentment and anger pouring off of him in waves, I think we would have S and that would have been the best thing for me. It just didn't happen in that order for me.
Also, it wasn't until I mentally did let him go that he chose to leave his AP and come back. I also made it very clear that if he walked out the door, he was never coming back. And I meant that 100%. That was my boundary and if he walked, we were done. That might not be your boundary. I could deal with him living at home while in an EA and then in a PA, though not for all that long, and I know that would have crossed the line for a lot of people. I think if you can, try to take the focus off of him and what he's doing, stop worrying about how what you do might affect him, and really focus on yourself. Feel your feelings and name them. Try to get a hold of what is going on for you and what you can deal with and what you absolutely can't... and then draw your line. I can't emphasize enough, though, that your line has to be authentic. It can't be an empty threat. It has to be your actual boundary that you've thought through and are willing to enforce in order to protect yourself. If you aren't there yet, that is OK. you'll get there. Just take the time you have now to focus on yourself, forgive yourself, and think about how to protect yourself.
This is good to know, overwhelmingly the advice here has been to boot him out - I will look for the infidelity book, or is it in the DB book?
it's called Healing From Infidelity.
I resent doing his laundry, so that is out. And having him walk out on me during the week, is for sure going to stir resentment, so I imagine things dropping off my list of to-do's for him.
great! Only do what feels right to you. you might need to pause and examine your motives when you find yourself starting to do different things. Try to avoid doing things in order to elicit any certain response from him.
I do not disagree that this is the more painful route - to have this happen all right in front of you. I will check out Wayfinders thread to understand more of what I am getting into. Thank you for that suggestion. I am entering this with much trepidation. I know I can not ask him to leave, so I really have not left myself with much choice.
This was my choice too. I fully accepted the knowledge that this path would be harder on me because it had the possibility of being easier on the kids.
You might also spend some time really getting comfortable with the idea of what D might be like
No can do, I get anxiety attacks just thinking about that. I am not ready for that. Call it avoidance, I don't know - but I can not wrap my head around that processing.
If I were you I'd just keep dipping my toes in the water. Knowledge is power. Pretend you're reading about it for a friend or something. I can't emphasize enough how much better I felt once I realized I'd be OK no matter what happened with H.
May22 - can I ask? How did you move from 'he could not see you in an intimate way again? I read in your thread that you made that transition but how? My H also said he did not see me 'that' way anymore and does not touch me (I am attractive & thin) but he just won't - will go out of his way not to. What is going on in his mind? is he bizarrely being faithful to the OW? how can I get him to see me differently? I don't want to be in the friend zone.
I want to be very very clear that there is no magic wand to make your H see you in an intimate way again. In my case it has taken a very very long time and I would say we aren't even close to the finish line on this one yet. We had an SSM (I was the low desire partner) basically since having children and it was a primary factor in all of this. Over a year ago I came to the realization (things were going poorly between us but this was before I found out about the A) that i didn't want to be that person anymore, and I made a commitment to MYSELF, for myself, to change. It really had nothing to do with him. He knew about this of course because I talked to him about it, and we had sex a few times but he always felt very guilty and awful about it, I think honestly because he felt like he was being unfaithful to AP, plus guilty about me not knowing, etc. He spent months saying he could never even imagine having sex with me again, etc. Then the night he told me about the full extent of his A we ended up sleeping together.
you might read Esther Perel's books-- they helped me a lot too. She talks about distance being necessary for desire to flourish and wanting what you can't have. I do think there is something to my H turning the corner right when I finally dropped the rope and was ready to walk. I think that it all boils down to the same advice-- focus on yourself, detach, GAL. He may come back or he may not-- but you need to get yourself in a place where you know you'll be OK no matter what.
I know this is so hard. I remember reading posters on my threads saying DETACH and I was so frustrated. It is soooo much easier said than done. But you can do this! ((HUGS))
- I really appreciate all the advice.
I bought MWD book "healing from infidelity" and found it very helpful. There is no hope in working on this marriage while there is a full PA/EA going on, but per MWD this is a waiting game --- 'give him the space and time to figure out his emotions and do the right thing' --- and during this time, work on myself. And there is a lot of work I need to do in this area. For one, just basically figuring out who I really am, I mean, I always have structured myself around 'what do the kids need? what needs to get done? how can I be of service?' and have lost who I am, honestly.
On the call with the DB counselor, he asked, what do YOU want to do with this time? what is your bucket list?....and I was stumped. I have no ideas. He literally pushed me til I was crying
I need to do alot of introspection.
Who is Misty? The discussion with HI pretty much told him that I would prefer he would stay while he figures things out, but I understand I can not make him stay. And that I know what this means (ie, he will be leaving at night). I can't stop him anyway. I asked him to be discreet for the kids sake.
The rest quickly went downhill and was entirely anti DB protocol - as I gave in to emotion quickly. I asked him if they were using the word love - he said no - but the hesitation I heard - meant yes. From MWDs book, this will take time to fizzle out, but I know it will. I did ask that they do not speak about me or our kids - that their relationship had to stand on its own - no 'advice' from a OW that was in a broken marriage herself (though I think she left her husband since February).
Also, I told H that I would not have any R talks with him for 2 weeks - but that I needed to hear that things were not going to change in those next 2 weeks - I need to eat and get some sleep and return to the land of the living. He was getting peeved. And did agree to that. (for what little his word is worth at this stage). I asked another q about the state of their relationship, I told him that I ruminate and torture myself and if I had to go 2 weeks without an R talk, I had to know more so I could step off. He was getting peeved and I knew I was doing more harm than good, so I told him that, and he backed off a bit. He told me he understood that - he told me that I had the advantage, he was in the house, I was the mother to his kids,
that I was the 'incumbent' - she might have him for a few hours - but I had him the rest of the time.
VENT:Those last comments, the incumbent comment, made me feel better, and I thanked him for it. I am so far from detached - this guy owns me, one look, one word - changes everything.
PLEASE HELP! I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW YOU ALL DID THE DETACHING . I seriously can not GAL right now in quarantine. I am struggling on how to detach.
How do you stop loving someone that you want back so badly? I am going to resolve to figuring out how to detach like you all did - go thru the threads for info - and follow strict DB'ing for the next 2 weeks and focus on me. Figure out where I lost myself along the way.
If you are still reading or following, thank you - any comments that could bring clarity on how to detach would be so helpful.
Steve and LH, I bet you have given up on me and I understand that. I am going upstream - betting it all that I am the one in a million that makes it - this way.
Misty,
I have not given up on you but this was very difficult to read. Are you in IC? Are you seriously in some sort of competition with this OW?
I’m not sure how I can help? Everything you wrote in your post above I would of suggested you did the opposite of what you did or said.
Are you in IC? Are you seriously in some sort of competition with this OW?
- I have had a couple visits to the DB counselor, but more so on what to do next, how to act, etc. No straight IC.
Why do you ask? I am not in a good space for sure.
Competition? well, sure I am. Whats all this business about looking the best you can in those 37 rules, lose weight, new wardrobe, etc. Thats to have him look your way, rather than hers, right? I mean - he has us both on a scale - evaluating everything. So maybe competition is not right, but heavy comparison would be.
So LH....everything would have been different? thats hard to hear.
How do I recover?
I think IC can help you with your anxiety and fear. I know you can’t see it right now but this is what’s it’s all about. Your fear of the unknown. Everything your doing right now is out of fear and that’s when you make a lot of mistakes. You even indicated in your posts that your husband was getting angry. That’s not what you want right now. No relationship talks ever! You have to give him time and space. You have to not let him walk all over.
Sandis 37 rules are to minimize the damage. Yes you want to look your best but you are no in a competition with the OW. You are the prize here but you have to believe it. It’s gonna take a lot of time and hard work but you will get there.
I 100% promise you that no matter what happens you will eventually be fine.
Eeeeek. I probably could have written something similar 12 years ago when I was in my 20’s and my ex left me for another woman. With our first child, a 6 month old baby at home. I did the same things. Pried about OW. Digging just to hear that maybe he was with her but he still didn’t love her as much as me. Trying to set this crazy “boundaries” which were not actually boundaries at all.
I look back and I could only cringe. I could not believe how much I disrespected myself! How much worth I had lost feeling “better” when he told me he didn’t say he loved her yet. Thinking I was still on top. I was vying for the attention of a cheater trying to be better than OW. First, how can I think so little of myself? ANd how could he possibly find that more appealing and attracting? Pretty darned sure it was more pity because I seemed pathetic.
If I could change anything , it would be how I carried myself. How I valued myself. I wish I would have viewed myself as worthy. Not to get him back, but because I am so much better than that.
I will tell you, the harder you press him to stay in the house, then make rules about being discreet, the more you ask about their R, and the more you show him you will act like a wife to him while he is having an affair, the farther away he will go for sure. No doubt about it.
My ex had since married her, and it’s been a hood amount of years. I didn’t get my husband back ( thank god) but I got my dignity and self worth back. Those are priceless. My daughter can look at me and see a positive strong role model who wouldn’t play second fiddle to some other woman. You simply could not put a price on those things. Trust me.
Competition? well, sure I am. Whats all this business about looking the best you can in those 37 rules, lose weight, new wardrobe, etc. Thats to have him look your way, rather than hers, right? I mean - he has us both on a scale - evaluating everything. So maybe competition is not right, but heavy comparison would be.
Eek! No, that's not the idea at all.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.
The idea of GAL isn't to compete, it's more to put your focus on something productive (building yourself up) rather than something destructive (trying to mindread and control your ex). You even say you can sense his anger as you try to control him. That's natural! The gym's good, but we'd be almost as happy if you went for a massage or learned a new board game, doubly so if that involves a friend. Some of my GAL activities are playing guitar, learning backyard meteorology, and leading morning nature walks.
Hi Misty,
On the competition... no. You are NOT in competition with her. That is what I meant when I said drop the paddle-- you can't win this game, so don't play.
Also... maybe it will help to think about what a total lying, cheating scumbag he is being right now. Why do you want him?
I also had a hard time separating myself from my identity as a mom/wife/working person. All day long people wanted something from me at work and then I came home and little people wanted something from me at home. A truly priceless part of this whole experience has been that it gave me back MYSELF and a better understanding of what I need and want to be happy and fulfilled. I'm glad your counselor pushed you on this and think you need to really double down here. Be selfish. What can you do today for youself?
An amazing vet named BluWave gave the following to me and I'm reposting it for you as I think it might help you. I copied this onto a note on my iPhone and read it multiple times a day.
You are the queen of your castle. Always.
You are the wife, you are the mother of these children, and this is YOUR family.
This is your home and you have a right to feel comfortable and safe there.
These M problems are not your fault alone.
The SSM was not your fault alone.
His A is not your fault and will never be your fault. This is HIS doing and his problem alone.
Right now, he is in the wrong and there is no justifying this selfish behavior. No more taking the blame.
OW is nothing and means nothing to you.
It is okay to feel angry, jealous, hurt, furious and anything you need to feel! Feel it and own those feelings -- they are your feelings!
There are safe people you can share your feelings with that won't judge you. Find them and cherish them.
You never have to compete with OW
There is no competition.
She is nothing to you.
It is not your job to convince him to stay.
You do not have to compromise your own needs or wants for him or any man.
You can take all the time and space you need.
You don't have to make any decisions or changes today.
There is always more time.
You do not have to share a bed with a liar and a cheater.
If he wants to leave for her, that is his choice and you can let him go.
He can own that decision and he can own the consequences of it.
He can break up his family if he chooses and you can still protect your castle and children. They will be okay.
You can still hold your head up high and you are still the queen.
I promise you will be okay with or without him there.
In time, this will work out for the best, eventually.
If over time you allow him back, or don't want him back, that is your own choice and no one elses opinion matters that much.
Life is long and complicated. Things will change for the bad, but also for the good.
In time, you can learn to love again and you will come out of this stronger.
You deserve love and respect.
Start by being the one to give that to yourself.
You can do this.
courtesy Blu, who I don't think will mind that I'm sharing this with you here. I just was looking back at my own threads from the fall and I was really in the same boat as you. I know it is really incredibly difficult. But you can do it.
May22 - Thank you for checking in on me, this is a great piece, thanks for sharing it - I am going to put this on my phone too. I don't want to be in competition with her. The words he used made me feel that way.
CWarrior - appreciate your ideas for GAL, I really think trying the guitar is something I want to do, never would have thought of that. Honestly, right now, I am planning one hour at a time. Get up. Go brush teeth. Get dressed....and get thru the day. I think I will add hitting Craigslist for a guitar.
No relationship talks ever! You have to give him time and space. You have to not let him walk all over.
I get it, and I knew better, no R talks EVER! got it. I will give him time and space, to figure his stuff out.
BUT... how do I not let him walk all over me? I mean, per MWD infidelity chapter, he gets to stay in the house and actively have his OW. So that part is confusing for me because that IS walking all over me.
So, what did you mean LH19? But those were the MWD instructions - wait it out - this A will most likely fizzle. There is no more exciting secrecy adrenaline rushes - the wife knows and he knows he is doing the wrong thing. He is here with his family, and at some point, OW will start asking for more time and start demands - and the glow will be over and just not worth it anymore. That is what I am doubling down on.
BS,
Ok so the problem I have with MWDs instructions on this is the assumption that you are going to everything else right including detach. If your going to do the in-house separation thing then you have to have the attitude of ok you are going to do your thing and I’m gonna go do mine. You split time with who is responsible for the kids and when he is you are out of the house and he has no idea where you are or what your doing. He does his own laundry, he shares the cooking responsibilities and you follow Sandis rules to a T.
You make it clear that you are taking this time to decide you really wanting moving forward. In-house separation with a spouse is extremely difficult and will take its toll on you. Please read what Ginger posted to you again. I know you can’t see it now but I promise you will someday. You are worth so much more then you know and will realize it someday. I’d look to come over and punch your husband in the face and teach him how to treat the mother of his children.
Read Bluewaves thread when you have time. She reconciled with her husband when she stopped tolerating his BS.
Be very kind and patient with yourself.
These spouses can really say some hurtful stuff. 'Incumbent' made me feel so bad for you. Like you're some kind of employee who can be fired willy nilly instead of someone he promised to love. My H described me and the kids as 'collateral damage' and that still makes me wince nearly 2 years later. I would also like to come over and punch your H. You deserve better. Please get some IC, you will spin for ages but IC is helpful in not over burdening your friends. Recovering from this takes time, you need to stop spinning, then start grieving, then start accepting. Radical self care and GAL are essential, even if you feel so bleak and sad and anxious that it's difficult to do. Things will get better with time, guaranteed xx
LH, DillyDaf - I appreciate both of your reaction to how H is treating me - because it makes me REALLY think what behavior I am accepting from him is off the charts not okay. I was actually okay with the incumbent word, made me feel better. I am embarrassed about that. I hate that I come off like a wallflower to him, sometimes even afraid to speak. I stutter, and speak softly, and he has to ask me to repeat it - and I get mad inside, because he knows he has the power. Even though I practiced what I was going to say, I wilt.
I used to think he was the most handsome guy....but something about him has become ugly. No lie. He stays up all night. His face is strangely swollen. He has a sty that has not healed right and its kind of disfiguring. He exercises alot and with the extra testosterone and HGH shots, he is pretty shredded...and when I make dinner he just stares...not nicely...and all of THAT intimidates me.
Any ideas on how to counter that? But I want you all to know, I am trying! I read, and read the posts, and other threads and MWD book, and pray. I want to do the right thing. So, for now, what I do know is the basics, I will not initiate anything, respond only (friendly, cordial, to the point answers) - absolutely no R talks. Note what works and doesn't work.
This is pretty basic, but I can do that. If you have an additional tip, throw it out there.A friend of mine is taking me out of here for a few hours tomorrow. That is a good thing.
Read Bluewaves thread when you have time.
Thank you LH - Good stuff!
one thing that helped me detach was really to focus on my H's negative qualities. I know this isn't true detachment-- you want to get to a place where his behaviors don't affect you emotionally at all- but sometimes it can help you get there to swing the pendulum in the other direction.
Think about what a jerk he is being, stare at that sty on his face, gross yourself out over him. I also made a list of all the great things I was going to be able to do when he left. (I'm still a little wistful about some of them, and some I did anyway, like buy all new bedding for the MB in a color I liked and knew he didn't.)
I think you really should spend some time thinking about your counselor's question-- what do YOU want? Journal, make a list, test things out. Every time you feel your mind wandering over to your H and what he's doing or anxiety about the future, redirect your attention to something positive about yourself or that you want to learn/read/do. And then do it!
Those last comments, the incumbent comment, made me feel better, and I thanked him for it. I am so far from detached - this guy owns me, one look, one word - changes everything. PLEASE HELP! I JUST DON'T KNOW HOW YOU ALL DID THE DETACHING . I seriously can not GAL right now in quarantine. I am struggling on how to detach. How do you stop loving someone that you want back so badly?
I have been thinking about this for the past couple of days as it hit so close to home for me in my situation. I struggled for months to accept the current state of our relationship and did all the wrong things -- cry, beg, plead, find anything I could say or do to try and 'fix' the situation. Nothing worked and my heart was just getting broken over and over again with each attempt.
I am no where near on the other side yet, but here are a few thoughts on my process:
- TIME it's so cliche, but it is really true. It takes time to get over grief, time to get yourself back and time to discover what you want. When the vets on this board say 'you have the gift of time', in my sad state of mind, I thought that the gift of time was for getting my H back. But now I realize that the gift of time is also for ME to discover if I really want H back.
- I like what May said about focussing on the things you don't appreciate or like about your H. A month ago I was in a spiral of 'how do I save my M? What changes can I make within myself to make him stay? I will do ANYTHING to keep our family intact!' I was overlooking or ignoring all the bad behaviors, treatment and the EA/OW. But the past couple weeks I have started to notice all the negative things that H has done or said to me over the past year. I am not dwelling on it or vilifying him to the point of no return, but when I start to feel sad or unsure, those thoughts are dominant. For the first time, I am really asking myself if I even want him back.
- It can be a sudden light switch! I read a post where one of the vets mentioned that LBW's tend to 'flip' into detachment quicker than LBH's. This doesn't mean that the pre-BD process is shorter, just that once the detachment starts, it can happen really fast. One day I was in tears and unsure how I was going to cope, and the next day I suddenly felt empowered and DONE with H's broken self, treatment of me and indecision. I have had a few wobbles since then, but my thoughts are overwhelmingly 'I've got this!' vs 'How am I ever going to survive this?'
- I have read a lot of threads on this board and am so grateful for everyone's stories. I have taken advice given to other people and used it in my own situation and it has really helped me. A couple of posters that I think would be really helpful for you to read from start to finish are BluWave (I see you have been introduced) and AlisonUK (she has some similar traits in her M). Besides the people regularly posting here for you (May is a fantastic voice of reason). And of course, listen to the vets. They are so wise, although you won't recognize the value of their 2x4's and wisdom in the moment.
Again, I am sharing all of this from the position of being only 1/2 a step ahead of you, if that. But I know you can get there. (((Hugs)))
Think about what a jerk he is being, stare at that sty on his face, gross yourself out over him.
- this made me laugh out loud! I hear you - yes! LOL! that is something I can do. And I worked on that list, and came up with some - some of these I WILL do:
-Learn to sing
-Karaoke
-Learn to dance
-Play the guitar
-Learn to ride a horse and ride ALONE
-Tent camp by myself
-RV trip with girlfriends
-Work as a barista at Starbucks
-Polar dive
-Take a nude pic
SAGE4 *Thank you for stopping in and posting, even if you are a bit ahead of me, I really appreciate you willing to call back to me and let me know whats ahead...even if its just a few steps ahead... it really helps. And, I agree with you about time...I was able to get thru most of today without wracking pain. So slowly, time is carrying me over the threshold to numbness. But boy, these past 3 months were sheer awfulness, I am not sure how I would have managed without finding this forum.
*Finally, something positive for a LBW - about that light switch - I can not wait for that! Please soon. If you are a bit ahead of me, then I should be coming up to that soon. Its awesome that you feel empowered and DONE - I think the tides will turn when I get there. I can't wait to be and feel empowered! Reading Bluwave is so helpful - all her advice - she made it and has her family together and an H that is back and solidly working on the M (that is as far as I got so far). I will look up AlisonUK. Thank you!
TODAYI went out with a friend today and my daughter (16) texted me, 'Dad is saying he is going to Home Depot, I asked to go with him, he said no, its so suspicious! what should I do?' And I texted back, 'Let him go. much love' --- I was a bit shocked because I (for the first time) did not care. Before I would have noted the time, and mentally ticked off each second, torturing myself where he was going.
And I let him know I was going out today - if he could check the kids if they needed anything. And left for about 6 hours and had a good time with a friend. Drove an hour away to have margaritas and just chill. She had asked to go last week and I turned her down as I did not want him to think how nice it was to have me not around. Today was a good day. I just hope for a restful night (more than 5 hrs of sleep).
Vent & Journal:
He stepped out last night. It still hurts - knowing that this great guy, great father, great husband - who I trusted implicitly - continues to betray me - and that he knows that I know he steps out - the new f'ing normal. Yes, I know I signed up for this by having him stay here. But I still need to vent, somewhere, here goes: His selfishness to run from his unhappiness to an OW that I don't think he loves, just loves the way she makes him feel - while destroying the rest of us - makes me so mad. We all go thru hard times. Unhappy marriages do not cause affairs, a-hole spouses do.
I too had been struggling the past years - thinking " is this it? " in relation to life. Carting the kids around (and teens are not so grateful about anything), going to work every day, efforts around the house, dealing with a husband that was so distant and removed (quietly building a wall of resentment) but for all purposes wouldn't speak up and tell me anything was wrong - that all wore on me too! BUT I DID NOT GO AND TURN TO HAVING AN AFFAIR!
So here I am dealing with HIS feelings, having to acknowledge HIS version of everything, HIS re-writing of history, ie, being the villain in this story. Why does HIS journey take precedence? - he was the selfish a@@hole that is ripping apart the family. I understand that while he is doing his thing, I need to do mine - and I should use that time - I get that - BUT - I was FORCED to take this journey by HIM. WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNFAIR!
I don't think states should have no-fault divorces any more - I don't think society should just 'okay' the wayward spouse without any punishment whatsoever. I hate that society is now okay with the idea of 'well, its okay to out grow people' or whatever bs statement that condones just walking out and all over someone. I think if things were made tougher - we wouldnt have over 50% of marriage dump into D. Not to mention what it does to the kids.
I know. For all I vent - nothing will change where I am at. But where I am at right now is pretty F'ING MAD RIGHT NOW. I tell you what though, feeling mad is a heckuva lot better than feeling sad.
In the beginning part of your last post you call him a “great father, great husband , and great guy” and at the end of the post you say he was so distant and removed.....
Which is the reality? What made him so great? What made him so distant and removed?
I think putting some logic to the things you say might help a little.
And asking him to stay in the house while he has an affair. That’s on you, girl. Why would you do that to yourself? Why would make having an affair a. Ok. You are basically saying “I am ok with being your plan B , if it doesn’t work out, I’m right here waiting for you” you do think more of yourself than that, don’t you???
Ginger -
I guess this great guy part, is who he once was to me, and since the affair and continuing it things have definitely changed. Is it okay with you have I have 2 views of this man - one from my memory and one from the present? I am just venting and journaling here.
If its not logic to you - thats okay - its what is going on with me right now and most likely not logical. For the state I am in, I would not expect it to be and I am going to let myself have that - instead of figuring out how to defend that to you.
I see your just jumping into the thread without some back reading which is fine, I did mention previously that MWD's book, 'Healing from Infidelity', this is her recommendation on how to handle this situation (Chapter 8 when your spouse wont end the affair and 9) if I could handle that. I did post earlier specific references to what she says but for you I will add some more because it seems that you like to swing 2x4's (at least thats what it feels like to me when I read your reply post). And I am picking this part specially for you Ginger ... I would appreciate if you go head to head with MWD on her own words:
Chapter 8, pg 162
"But you are not a doormat. Your are not a pushover. You are simply fighting for your marriage and your trying to do it in the smartest way possible. You are giving your spouse the time and space they need to sort their emotions out and do the right thing. You are very courageous. Your a warrior. Don't let anyone tell you differently.
You probably mean well - but constantly posting to me 'dont you think more of yourself? - just puts me on the defensive.
I’ve been on these boards for 12 years. I’ve been through it. I mean through the dirty of it. I know a lot, I’ve learned a lot, I know what works and what doesn’t.
I am not telling you to defend yourself to me. I’m telling you to really dig deep and take the steps needed to properly detach. And that is is looking deep down into the painful realities. And asking yourself the very hard questions.
I don’t need your logic. I don’t need your defense. These are things I am asking for you to look at for yourself, if you want any chance at saving your marriage and saving yourself.
It all starts from self worth and really looking at the narrative you write in your head vs. the reality. If you aren’t ready for that, the. You are t.
If you want to hold him up on the pedestal and be the “incumbent” go ahead. If you think holding on for dear life while he has an affair under your nose, then go ahead . And you don’t have to defend why you chose that to me or anyone else. When you are ready, you are ready, and you have made it clear it is not now.
But I can tell you from many years here, that has worked for 0% of the divorce busters .
If you want validation and no true direction in the tough work that it takes to get there, I am probably. Ot your woman right now. I’ll be around if you want help when you are ready for it. If you want to use this place purely as a source of venting right now, go ahead.
But your self worth is truly the corner store to saving yourself and possibly saving your marriage. That’s why I drive it home.
And as the saying goes, if it stings, you should take a look at it
Best of luck , really and truly. My heart goes out to you
Oh. M and I still have a copy of my book from 12 years ago. That advice has to be applied in the right place, in the right way, in the right mindset it can often be very misinterpreted and cause more damage than good
Ginger - Then I am clearly confused - and misinterpreting MWDs words - to me it sounded like I keep him in the house and let him have his affair and wait for it to fizzle out. I have re-read it a million times, its only one chapter.
If I am not getting it (which your telling me) then pull out more 2x4's and explain it to me. But asking me if I respect myself is just too broad for me. I am ready to do what it takes and this is what I thought it was. That this was a path, harder to do, but a viable path.
"But your self worth is truly the corner store to saving yourself and possibly saving your marriage."
Can you be more specific please? I don't know if your saying I need to work on detaching or your saying I should kick him out.
What is the right context for that chapter 8? I really want to know. Especially if that is a 0% route. I am not saying that I am okay with being plan b, what I am saying is that he is confused and loving how she is making him feel - and then MWD adds these affairs last about 6 months or so, then fizzle, so if I can hang on for that long, it should work out. I dont feel like I am okay being a plan b...I feel that I am the prize and he will realize that soon, win him without words.
I am okay being schooled - specifics help though!
And ... to add to my confusion..I work with an MWD counselor who also advocates him staying in the house, with the affair going on. This all makes me spin back and forth. What is the right thing to do?
Ok, I’m going to break it down for you.
I believe you had said you had ASKED your H to stay in the house while he had his affair. You shouldn’t ask. If he stays he stays, if he goes he goes. Keeping him somewhere he doesn’t want to be is what gets you those looks of contempt and his bitterness and unkindness towards you. And if you ask him to stay, you shouldn’t be on end ge, trying to cater to and placate him and try to “win” against the other woman. It makes him look and feel like the king while you are are vying to win him. That’s being walked all over. That’s not having self worth. Making personal strides toward becoming plan A for yourself while he is under your roof is what will be a win-win. Not watching his every move or be intimidated by him, ensuring you have time to get out of the house at night just as he does.
But if he wants to go, let him go. Bottom line. Keeping him there because a chapter in the DB book or a coach says that’s your beat chance isn’t going to help if you can’t detach and be a confident strong woman who isn’t affected by him dangling the affair in your face. And quite honestly, I wouldn’t be able to do that. Not many can.
The D coach, I am sure is coaching you to GAL while in this situation and turn the focus on you and your kids, and become the best you for yourself. And that might get noticed, but can’t be faked. And even if he didn’t act on it, you did that for YOU. You mention a bit of an identity crisis you were going through. Work on that for you!
When we make it a competition, and just a “I’m going to get him back!” Scenario, often, problems that existed don’t get solved. It doesn’t make for a marriage 2.0 when you just put out all the stops to get the Walkaway back. Often why you find the people who reconciled come back years later .
Look at you. Turn all that focus on you. I know it feels counter intuitive and almost impossible. But whether or not he comes back, ( and he should have to work for it) you are going to come out better and stronger. Your kids will see it too.
And I hate to say this, but don’t assume the affair is going to fizzle out. Because they all don’t. My ex has been remarried to his affair partner for 9 years..... can’t say they have a healthy R. ... but it’s only my concern where my daughter in involved . And I am actually so grateful he didn’t come back, because he is not a healthy man. And we actually are better to eachother divorced than married.
Living under the same roof while separated with no affair is a lot easier than woth an affair. Personally, for me, is I am not going to act like your wife while you while you are having an affair with another woman. Heck no. And if you chose to stay under my roof while it goes on, I take care of me, you take care of you. Because I know I am worth being plan A, and will be plan A for myself . If you chose to follow, then we can work from there.
You can’t own his stuff. But you can own yours. And work on it. But that doesn’t mean being a doormat. And by being a doormat, I mean asking him to stay and treating him like a husband when he isn’t acting like one.
I hope this makes sense. The problem with the book is when your ale it verbatim, but don’t use it in context. For many of those things to work, you need to get yourself to a certain headspace. And getting to that headspace takes a lot of hard, uncomfortable work
B,
Ginger did a great job about hammer home most of the points but I wanted to discuss the idea of “kicking him out.” Now legally you can’t kick him out assuming that his name is on the mortgage. But you can ask him to leave. That communicates to him that you are not ok with the affair.
Ginger is right when she says IHS while someone is in an active. To do it the MWD way they are assuming that you will put all the focus on you and the kids and you can probably admit to yourself that it is almost impossible to do.
I have nothing but compassion for you Bluesea because I can feel the pain in your posts. The quickest way back is to go in a straight line in the opposite direction. It sure is easier said then done.
Thank you Ginger! I finally get what you are saying! Doormat = asking him to stay & treating him like a husband.
I definitely made a big mistake in asking him to stay. I think I threw in something like, 'I can't make you stay, but I prefer you did', that was the intention, but I know it came off more like I am okay with you staying while you figure this (ie, the affair) all out. Can I fix this? How do I do tee that up for a re-do? I know R talks are taboo. Do I just wait until he brings it up, saying he wants to leave? Because I think that is coming, not sure. My response to that would be something like, 'If this is what you want to do, I can not stop you - let me know when you plan to go and I will have the kids and myself out of the house so you can go without us here.' That wasn't my speech but the DB coach. It sounds good to me, then I would exit left, go make dinner, or go for a ride.
After the above gets cleared up - there are two options: if he decides to stay I WILL NOT act like his wife - ie, no dinners, no laundry, nothing. Talk only when he initiates - and respond friendly but cordial. No R talks. And keep the focus on me and the kids only. I can do that.
The other option is if he goes, seems like its the same thing but on a 'less' level.
Ok, so now LH has also posted - and is saying that I should ask him to leave. This is where I start to get confused. Am I asking him to leave or letting him to decide what he wants to do?
THANK YOU BOTH!
B,
Ultimately he’s gonna decide what he wants to do because legally you can’t kick him out. Asking him to leave is communicating you are not cool being in an open marriage. The 100% point you’re trying to make is H I can’t control what you do but I love myself too much to live in an open marriage.
I went for a ride to get myself ready for the conversation...needed to be in the right headspace. When I got back, he had sent an email.
I've been wanting to some express some appreciation to you in person, but I was pretty certain that I would screw it up, so I wrote it down....
I just want to tell you that while things are pretty awful right now, they may not be as bad as you imagine. I know that you are going through hell and putting up with a LOT from me right now. I'm being extremely selfish and we both know that. I really am trying to find my way through this. Please know that I see what you are going through and while I can not image it, I am trying to understand and empathize.
I just wanted to tell you that I very much appreciate your tolerance of my bad behavior on so many levels over the past months. I sincerely admire your strength and courage. I do see it and it *IS* making a difference.
Thank you for not giving up on me so far and please don't give up on me yet.
I didn't move forward with the conversation but its ready. Its hard for me to change gears so quickly: from getting to the place to be ready to have the conversation, then reading his email, I feel sidetracked for tonight.
B,
So the translation is you and the children are supposed to be the most important people in the world to me and I know you’re in extreme pain and going through hell. I know this is putting our children through hell but I don’t care. I only care about what makes me happy. I think it’s this OW but I’m not 100% sure. Can you wait until I am sure in case I need to come back home and act like nothing happened?
Blue I know you see this as a sign of hope but this will be another thing that makes you cringe years down the road when you think about it. This I promise you.
BlueSea,
Stay the course! WHs are very good at scenting their LBWs finally starting to stand up for themselves and detaching. He's trying to keep you on the hook. That doesn't mean what he's saying isn't true-- he may very well be feeling all those things-- but remember, believe nothing of what they say and half of what they do. What LH says above is totally correct-- he maybe feels guilty about being a total and complete a-hole, but it hasn't stopped him from still doing it.
It also shows that what you are doing is working. MWD says see what works and KEEP IT UP. That means do not respond lovingly. If i were you, I'd totally ignore it and keep on focusing 100% on yourself and detaching. I wouldn't acknowledge his email at all. Let him wonder what you're thinking, if you read it, etc.
Keep it up! Stay strong!
He’s basically telling you I’m hurting you, sorry, but I’m still going to continue with the affair.
It’s his way of keeping you on the hook. He needs his plan B there .
Things could be rocky woth his affair partner and she might dump him.
Do you want to be the back up? Or do you want to be number one?
If that ever did happen, where his OW dumps him and he comes crawling back, that door shouldn’t be wide open. Else you’ll most likely go through this a second time .
Keep the course. Don’t be sucked in by words that have no action.
Always look at actions.
I agree with May, IGNORE THIS EMAIL. Pretend that he didn't even write it. And even more importantly, pretend that you never read it (ie, don't change your behavior based upon this email).
He is acknowledging in writing that you are plan B and you have already decided that you do not want to be plan B.
Can you get out of the house and GAL today? Can you go NC as much as possible over the next few days? He is likely going to ask if you got his email. What is your response going to be?
Stay mighty, BlueSea!
Alot of things happened for me yesterday.
1. Light bulb moment spurred on by Gingers post about not being a doormat, and understanding what that meant I needed to do.
2. Kids telling me they just want me to be done with him, I have asked them to be nice - they don't want to be, and don't want him here anymore. They don't like him, and do not like how I am tolerating all this.
3. His email. I just felt numb about it.
4. Nothing changed. He stepped out all last night, 11pm to 5am.
Last night, I ended up driving around, bought some vodka - parked in my own driveway - and drank. I am not a drinker. What I do remember telling him, was that all the wife activities (laundry, cooking, cleaning for him) would be stopping - that this was something I could not do going forward without growing resentment towards him. He tried to respond that he had no expectations and he could help clean...but I clipped him off. I just wanted to have my say - because he ALWAYS has had expectations that I do all that for him. (hovering over the dinner pans and asking what is his - not touching anything in the kitchen, leaving his laundry basket overflowing)
I let him know that the kids have issues with all this and him, and that I would not be running interference any longer. They will be treating him based on how they feel. That is up to him to handle his own relations with them.
- He says with sarcasm, "sure, they think I am the bad guy" - I felt he was baiting me, and did not respond. That would just be argument territory and I did not want to get waylaid there.
He told me that the email was just him taking one brick off the 'resentment wall' he has for me. That he still has alot of resentment against me. That he can not be with me in any way yet. That whatever books I am reading or advice I am getting, is working. He needs his time and space to figure things out. I did alot of nodding and agreeing. He rarely says anything so I just listened. He hugged me, he told me I really looked good. And then I left the room. In an hour he left the house.
I guess after all that - I was really surprised that he stepped out last night. During our conversation, he said he knew it was hard on me, and I told him that the next day after he is out all night is
really hard on me - and I let him know that I could not handle that for too long. But he went anyway. So there you have it,
he does not care. Believe nothing of what they say and half of what they do....
My sadness is turning the corner to anger. And it seems like its going to be alot easier to detach now. Plus, hearing the kids hurt, is fueling the momma bear. I feel little parts of me assembling, coming together in pieces. My plans for today are to DB hard and tend to the kids and myself.
B,
Are you familiar with the stages of grief. Looks like you are coming out of denial and into anger.
The five stages of grief are:
•denial.
•anger.
•bargaining.
•depression.
•acceptance.
Thanks LH -
I would like to station permanently in this stage - because the next stage - "bargaining" - sounds like that will be awful.
So as far as the R - am I in limbo now? I have heard that term mentioned on threads.
What, if anything - should I be doing now?
thanks,