Previous Thread - Cross Country Separation Part Ihi all,
I have spent the entire day feeling miserable after the interaction with W yesterday and how I stormed out after she told me I was punishing her by not being her friend. This afternoon I got a notification from my calendar, I had set a 6 months deadline to move on if I saw no change on her behaviour.
Well here we are, there has been no change, I still want to R, but I need to move on now. I guess considering myself divorced will help from this point. Do you have any recommendations for moving pass this kind of personal deadlines in a healthy way?
On a different topic, how can I deal with the sex drought? It has been many many months and I am 29 so my drive is quite strong. One of my goals as better man is to stop any kind of porn and my friends keep encouraging me to use tinder or similar (only one of them is married and the rest have the maturity of a teenager). do you guys have any recommendations here?
I have been out before and I feel interest from other women but I do not want to complicate or mess any chances at R yet I am a man and have my needs. Thanks a lot for reading and for your support!
love, Packs
Hi Paco,
Sorry you're here. I'll admit I've only read bits of your situation.
I can proudly say I am all NC now.. Yesterday I dropped the kids with her and it was the first time when after enjoying some time with them together I was the first one to want to go,
Well, not exactly. Sounds like contact. My GF is NC with he ex-H. She doesn't see him during the exchange of kids. For years I limited contact with my ex-W to matters essential to the kids (quiet handoffs).
I read all this DB stories were Hs say the first step is to be friends again,
Interesting. In most situations I think we recommend the opposite--either because there's been a betrayal (poor friend material) or because it would be too hard or to allow for "missing" each other. With my partner I went from together to NC to romantically together again. I'm not sure "friends" would've worked.
"[T]he only one to shift the blame 100% on the other here was [you]."
I doubt blaming her 100% for being the only one to shift blame 100% (in front of the kids) will rate as either one of your best (or worst) moments in the marriage. You're human. Do better next time.
On a different topic, how can I deal with the sex drought? It has been many many months and I am 29 so my drive is quite strong. One of my goals as better man is to stop any kind of porn and my friends keep encouraging me to use tinder.. I do not want to complicate or mess any chances at R
Dating complicates reconciliation. Been there, done that, in case reconciliation is a goal. I've controversially noted here before If you're ready to move on, at least one study shows rebounds help, and I see no ethical issues if you're honest with everyone. I am curious why you believe self-satisfaction makes you a worse man than sleeping with random people on Tinder. If the issue is you consider porn unethical, consider whether erotic literature or some limited cross-section of porn is satisfying and fits your ethics.
I can proudly say I am all NC now, I go to bed and have things to keep me busy or entertained, I wake up in the morning with new goals, plans and to-do lists and I will never ever beg her again for a simple coffee or dinner.
So..........all this NC came about since yesterday?
Your resolve is usually the strongest when you are angry.
Yesterday I dropped the kids with her and it was the first time when after enjoying some time with them together I was the first one to want to go, I genuinely wanted to leave so I opened the door to her building and as I was saying goodbye she started crying and told me she could not bear anymore my accusations. She told me she was not happy either but she could not be with me, she had suffered for a long time and now she could not start clean.
As difficult as it may be at first, I think you really need to stop spending time together with the kids. Exchange them, but don't spend time together "with" them. Your W holds strong resentment, and this works against you and the children.
I told her I knew she had been banging her head against a wall and that I was sorry and would give her all time and space she needs. To that her reply was that I am stubborn, that I must accept we are separated and it is probable we are never together again. I got strength from inside and told her I had accepted it and she told me she does not understand why we cannot speak like friends and that it feels like I am punishing her. I told her I could happily talk about our children and the only one to shift the blame 100% on the other here was her and walked away (I am sorry but I just felt like I also have to set boundaries for me and her tears did not seem genuine, you cannot just cry and then say do not dare coming close to me in an angry tone)
By
not spending time with her while enjoying the kids, it gives her much more space. Giving her space, in this case, means removing your attention, your presence, your time, conversation, etc. I think she's going to need a long stretch of time without seeing you or hearing your voice, before some of her anger subsides. I don't think she wants you to "fix" anything with her. Unfortunately, I've experienced some people like her, who had rather remain angry than find resolution. This is when there is nothing you can do to change her feelings, b/c she won't allow it. Therefore, the problem is no longer about you. She chooses to remain bitter and cold. The problem is within her heart, and she will have to find peace with it. Am I making sense?
Unless you physically behave in a pursuing manner, or make comments that reflect your feelings for her, or desiring to reconcile, then why does she immediately take issue against you? I think her wanting to be
friends is a farce. When you are with her a short period, she quickly becomes very angry and hateful for no obvious reason......other than she holds unforgiveness in her heart. Unforgiveness works like a poison. You cannot be friends with a person of this disposition. She will have to work it out, herself, b/c she refuses to allow you to make amends. When she doesn't have you as a target to unleash her rage, maybe she will realize she is hurting herself by carrying this resentment. You can't heal her.
Also I dont know what to think about her tears, she has used them in the past to get her way and they come out of nowhere. A minute ago she is ignoring me and when I am going to leave she bursts into tears, what is she playing at?
I can't remember if I've asked this question previously. Was your W spoiled by her parents? When a little girl has a sense of entitlement, it often comes from parents who never tell her "no". Spoiled little girls are guilty of manipulating her parents to get whatever they want. However, she doesn't have to be
spoiled, in order to use tears as a manipulation tool, for whatever reason. When they grow up, they
can change.......but often times, they don't. It's not difficult for some women to shed tears at any given time. My guess is that used the tears to pull you back into her drama. She could have wanted to make you feel guilty (punish you) for hurting poor little her. It's too complicated for me to explain sufficiency. If you think the tears were fake, and I tend to agree, then don't beat yourself up.
I apologize if I have repeated anything from previous posts.
((hugs))
hi CWarrior, Sandi, thanks a lot for jumping in.
@ CWarrior, thanks for your post! I feel like I write such long ones only Sandi has the patience to answer me!
Yes I know is not the best NC but I have been stubbornly ignoring the good advice from Sandi for many months and for me being there and not thinking about asking W how she is is a little triumph.
I did have a weak moment there, I am getting back my confidence and self esteem and I hearing her say I was punishing her just reminds me of comments as "you cannot force me to be unhappy next to you for the rest of my life". I will do better next, validation and respect.
I dont have issues with porn, I just dont want to abuse it, when our R was dying I did use it as she would tell me things as we not being in a place where she would feel desire and it just reminds me of those days. I am all devoted to my career, children and myself but it is just hard. Good thing is now with summer lots of cold showers are coming!
@ Sandi, you always speak as clear as water. I will give her that kind of space, I will allow her to miss me and think differently and I wont even stop to play with the kids when I drop or pick them up. She also cried when she told me she had to be in Seville because she could not start over in Munich and despite I dont think she is spoiled, I do think she might have that ability to cry out of nowhere.
Quite a lot happened yesterday, let me tell you but I think I was not too bad.
She asked me to bring her bike when I pick up the children. I know a strong DBer would have told her, is here ready for pickup but I got it in the car and went pick up the kids. I have renewed my wardrobe, I had to because even things I bought last year are now too loose and I was very cheerful.
Her first comment was that I had a pump (implying I should have pumped her wheels up) to what I calmly replied it is inside a wardrobe upper shelf and I did not have the time to get it (no thanks nothing more). I picked up the kids, told them to kiss her goodbye, left immediately. While driving in the car she called me 3 times, I ignored the calls and got home where I had a new bike for my S6 as now we can go out with children 11 to 19pm. I finally called her and it went like this:
W: Hi, can you speak?
Me: Yes how can I help?
W: Why have you left so quickly? I almost couldnt say anything to you. Dont you want to know how your children are?
Me: Of course I want to, I will talk to S6 as we have done so far and catch up with them.
W: Oh so you are going to trust a boy who is 6?
Me: Look W, I dont like the way we have talked the last few occasions, I dont want our R to go that way.
W: But that is the ONE thing I want, to talk about the children. You dont understand.
Me: Well then call me some other day and when they are not here we meet and chat.
W: (babbles something in anger and hangs up)
Me: (wow I handled that so so)
How did I go there? I think I still can improve because I dont have the emotional strength to stop to thing what I want to say when she attacks me, I will get there.
Am I being to harsh by not even wanting to stop with her anymore? I am truly confuse with the friend thing. Some success stories here tell you "it was my claim for unconditional friendship that arose the first feelings back in my W", but to me it just does not come natural, I am still a pension and a visiting father in my own eyes, and she has done nothing to show me she regrets this situation (the other day she went as far as saying "I realised the only thing that did not fit in my life was you". She knows I want to change, improve and fight for our marriage, I have told her a million times and she does not care, her safety and happiness are no longer my problem and I need my own space and boundaries to heal.
I keep talking about exercise but now that I can go out to run it is even better. I renewed my wardrobe, slim pants, new shirts, new t-shirts, shoes... the whole pack and I have forced myself to put on an air of confidence and happiness despite the nights when I cannot sleep and memories destroy me.
I havent heard back from her, maybe she is to proud to ever admit she was wrong and our family is worth putting the effort. We never went to C, never lived appart before the separation, but it has been 6 months now living alone and I dont see a hint of a change in her, too bad because I spend less and less nights thinking about her side of the bed.
Thank you all for your support, please keep posting!
hugs, Packs
Me: Look W, I dont like the way we have talked the last few occasions, I dont want our R to go that way.
You handled the conversation great. This ^^^^ statement was important, b/c it points to the reason for your hasty departure. Not that you were required to give her a reason, but I think you did very well. Next time, it won't be necessary to tell her.
Am I being to harsh by not even wanting to stop with her anymore? I am truly confuse with the friend thing.
No, I don't think you were harsh.
I think you need lay aside the thoughts of being her friend, or seeing it as a channel of restoring the relationship. How can you be a friend to someone who rejects you? Think about it. Have you ever pursued a person to be friends, when that person wanted nothing to do with you? You cannot be friends with someone who hates you and uses every opportunity to make digs and throw hurtful remarks in your face. You have to show self respect, and not follow her around when she's speaking badly, giving you the cold shoulder, etc. You tried being friendly, in times past, and she reacted even worse. Therefore, time & space is needed before she will be ready to conduct herself in a calm, respectable manner. If she heals from the bitterness she holds in her heart, then perhaps it will be possible to become friends, but I think it will take her a long time to let go of her anger.
I havent heard back from her, maybe she is to proud to ever admit she was wrong and our family is worth putting the effort. We never went to C, never lived appart before the separation, but it has been 6 months now living alone and I dont see a hint of a change in her, too bad because I spend less and less nights thinking about her side of the bed.
I don't think you'll see change in her for a couple of years, if she is not in therapy trying to heal. I realize 6 months feels forever to you, but by all accounts.....she is not processing her thoughts/feelings in a healthy way. She continues to verbally bash you, and it gets her nowhere. She may never get beyond this point with you, b/c she wants you to hurt and letting go of her anger would be like letting you escape pain free.
I keep talking about exercise but now that I can go out to run it is even better. I renewed my wardrobe, slim pants, new shirts, new t-shirts, shoes... the whole pack and I have forced myself to put on an air of confidence and happiness despite the nights when I cannot sleep and memories destroy me.
Great job!
hi all!
I need to ask for some help on the board today. Over the last 2 days with the children at home I have been extremely busy with work, exercise and the kids to the point that I almost do not pay attention to my phone. Everyday around 20pm W video calls to see the children but anytime she messages outside of that time I just take hours to see it and answer.
I got a pm today from W saying that I should try to look at the phone more often if possible. Before answering to her I wanted to check with the board, this is what I wanted to say.
"W, you know my position wrt our marriage are family, but while we are separated and independent I so not think you should tell me those things."
I am struggling to put this down to words but I want to convey the message that she chose to separate, even ask me repeatedly for a divorce and she simply cannot even comment on how often I look at the phone, she has lost that right. Am I right? how do I put this into words on a respectful and loving way? again, as time goes by and I gain confidence, I have realized I also need my boundaries.
Thanks a lot for your support and help! Here still GALing like a madman!
I think you need lay aside the thoughts of being her friend, or seeing it as a channel of restoring the relationship. How can you be a friend to someone who rejects you? Think about it. Have you ever pursued a person to be friends, when that person wanted nothing to do with you? You cannot be friends with someone who hates you and uses every opportunity to make digs and throw hurtful remarks in your face. You have to show self respect, and not follow her around when she's speaking badly, giving you the cold shoulder, etc. You tried being friendly, in times past, and she reacted even worse. Therefore, time & space is needed before she will be ready to conduct herself in a calm, respectable manner. If she heals from the bitterness she holds in her heart, then perhaps it will be possible to become friends, but I think it will take her a long time to let go of her anger.
I don't think you'll see change in her for a couple of years, if she is not in therapy trying to heal. I realize 6 months feels forever to you, but by all accounts.....she is not processing her thoughts/feelings in a healthy way. She continues to verbally bash you, and it gets her nowhere. She may never get beyond this point with you, b/c she wants you to hurt and letting go of her anger would be like letting you escape pain free.
Sandi,
What do you mean by this? Can you explain it in more detail?
I would ignore it and go on. You cannot please her with any response you give.
hi all!
I need to ask for some help on the board today. Over the last 2 days with the children at home I have been extremely busy with work, exercise and the kids to the point that I almost do not pay attention to my phone. Everyday around 20pm W video calls to see the children but anytime she messages outside of that time I just take hours to see it and answer.
I got a pm today from W saying that I should try to look at the phone more often if possible. Before answering to her I wanted to check with the board, this is what I wanted to say.
"W, you know my position wrt our marriage are family, but while we are separated and independent I so not think you should tell me those things."
I am struggling to put this down to words but I want to convey the message that she chose to separate, even ask me repeatedly for a divorce and she simply cannot even comment on how often I look at the phone, she has lost that right. Am I right? how do I put this into words on a respectful and loving way? again, as time goes by and I gain confidence, I have realized I also need my boundaries.
Thanks a lot for your support and help! Here still GALing like a madman!
hi HrtHsbnd! thanks for the comment, I was now going to bed and I am thinking the same, no matter what I say it will not bring me closer to the goal I have. I will come back tomorrow and answer to the other comments. Thanks a lot! I saved my old me another stupid pm to W.
Originally Posted by sandi2
I think you need lay aside the thoughts of being her friend, or seeing it as a channel of restoring the relationship. How can you be a friend to someone who rejects you? Think about it. Have you ever pursued a person to be friends, when that person wanted nothing to do with you? You cannot be friends with someone who hates you and uses every opportunity to make digs and throw hurtful remarks in your face. You have to show self respect, and not follow her around when she's speaking badly, giving you the cold shoulder, etc. You tried being friendly, in times past, and she reacted even worse. Therefore, time & space is needed before she will be ready to conduct herself in a calm, respectable manner. If she heals from the bitterness she holds in her heart, then perhaps it will be possible to become friends, but I think it will take her a long time to let go of her anger.
I don't think you'll see change in her for a couple of years, if she is not in therapy trying to heal. I realize 6 months feels forever to you, but by all accounts.....she is not processing her thoughts/feelings in a healthy way. She continues to verbally bash you, and it gets her nowhere. She may never get beyond this point with you, b/c she wants you to hurt and letting go of her anger would be like letting you escape pain free.
Sandi,
What do you mean by this? Can you explain it in more detail?
IMHO, whenever there is a case where the other spouse is extremely angry and uses every opportunity to bash the LBS, there needs to be a period of cooling off. It may take months, years, or never, b/c the other spouse refuses to let go of their anger or seek help in healing. This cooling off period applies for the spouse who blows up over the least thing, and the LBS never knows what temperament is going to show up. The LBS is the one on the receiving end as the other spouse unleashes their rage. There seems to be nothing the LBS can do to change the other spouse's angry outbursts. To me, it seems very illogical for the LBS to believe they can be the other spouse's BFF under these conditions.......and I have to ask why would anyone
want to be friends with someone who treats them so badly.
I've stated my opinion about this many times. I think couples mess up by thinking of their MR as if it were a friendship. When I accepted my H's proposal of M, I was not seeking a new friend. I already had
many friends. However, I was not in love with any of my friends. My future H was in a unique category that only
one person could fill. Now, to be fair, I think I understand what people mean by saying they are trying to be friends with the spouse who wants out of the M. But I have a big problem with the LBS trying to be the other spouse's friend, while accepting a trashcan full of bad treatment in return. It goes against human nature. Human beings don't want to be a real friend to someone they can kick around, b/c they have no respect for that person. See what I mean? They may let that person hang around from time to time, and they will use that person whenever they want them to do something.......but it is not a true friendship.
After there has been a cooling off period, the stormy waters have ceased......and the other spouse has ceased their attack, the LBS may be able to conduct themselves in a
friend-
ly manner whenever there is a legit reason to have contact. Depending on the circumstances of the sitch, a level of "friendship" may begin to develop. I think the problem many LBH's have, is his definition of being his W's friend is quite different than her definition......especially while her treatment toward him is so bad. As long as she lashes out in anger, verbally disrespects, tries to manipulate, etc.........I think he should resign himself to a civil approach, rather than trying to be her buddy. Does that make sense? The bottom line is
respect. The LBS must demonstrate self-respect, in order for the other spouse to respect them.
So how does a LBS cope with the other spouse who won't interact civilly? The LBS must have effective boundaries in place, based on their core values. The LBS must stop being available 24/7, and drop the emotional rope they have tied to the other spouse. All contact with/from the other spouse, should be on a business level. Don't respond to texts/emails/calls from the other spouse. I use to say the exception is when it's about the kids, but I've learned that LBS's abuse that exception to death!!
If it is a true emergency, a text indicating an emergency isn't that hard.
When children are involved, there needs to be a calendar or set schedule indicating when the children will be in the care of each spouse. I don't know if it's called child/parent visitation (that term doesn't sound right to me) or whatever the modern term
is, but you know what I mean, right? There should also be a regular set time for the other spouse to contact the children when they are in the care of the LBS. The other spouse should not text the LBS wanting photos of the kids, asking the LBS if the kids are okay (as if the LBS is incapable of taking care of them). The LBS should not respond to any photos or funnies the other spouse sends. This may feel too rigged for some newcomers, but once the other spouse stops dumping garbage on the LBS and
consistently acts civil, then the LBS can always lighten up a little........so to speak.
I want something understood here. This is not to be seen as a punishment or tit-for-tat. It's about the LBS detaching from a highly emotional person who continues to disrespect them. We often say that you can't nice them back. That's referring to a spouse who wants out of the MR without justified caused (abuse, imprisonment, no support, etc.). The other spouse has no selfish hidden agenda, no third party is in the picture, no behaving like GGW, etc. IMHO, the only way the LBS could work toward being a friend with the other spouse, is when the LBS is obviously the offender, instead of the offended party. Make sense? The majority of cases on the board, are about betrayed LBS.......who are being treated awful by the other spouse. When this is the case, I don't recommend trying to act like their BFF, b/c of the lack of respect factor. The LBS should set guidelines and boundaries.....so that s/he is not constantly ambushed by the other spouse. Give the other spouse time and space to cool off. The problem for most LBS is they see a few days as time & space, and unfortunately, it's nothing close to what is needed. So, don't lower your standards and self-respect in order to be a buddy of the other spouse, when they are treating you terribly.
I don't know if I explained myself much better in this post, but I hope I did.
[quote][quote]Originally Posted by sandi2
The other spouse should not text the LBS wanting photos of the kids, asking the LBS if the kids are okay (as if the LBS is incapable of taking care of them). The LBS should not respond to any photos or funnies the other spouse sends. This may feel too rigged for some newcomers, but once the other spouse stops dumping garbage on the LBS and consistently acts civil, then the LBS can always lighten up a little........so to speak.
Sandi you know I have struggled with this so much. Many of the reasons my WAW gave me were lack of intimacy and support as well as lack of time alone when my attention is 100% on her. This means to show her the changes when she initiates contact, such as sending me a picture of S1, I respond nicely and in a loving way. However, it is when I show myself confident, happy, strong and busy when I see her looking back. It has taken me months to learn a basic truth but oh boy is it true.
So I left the children yesterday with her and I am seriously surprised how well I validated her. Our conversation revolved around these topics.
> She told me she wants to go back to the separation agreement and have the children longer for the sake of stability. She went on to talk about how she probably missed them more and could sacrifice herself more for them because sometimes I go running and leave them with my sister and she has all the maternal instinct.
I calmly told her I miss them same or more but that I understand what for her is now stability and routine. I told her I signed that agreement on a very poor emotional situation and I no longer believe in it I said I want us to be a family and happy and I am willing to put on the work but she has chosen divorce and missing the children half our lives is our future if we go along that path. I told her traveling for work or going out to exercise does not make me less of a devoted father.
> She insisted that I have not changed and that if I really love her I need professional psychiatrist help because it is not normal to hurt someone you love so much.
I told her I am receiving professional help because I am very serious about being a new, better and happy man in this new stage of my life. I said it is no excuse or justification but I have had many issues with money in my previous years. I was negative and focused on making money to improve the life of our kids, I am sorry I behaved that way and I understand her suffering and if the future has a chance for us I will make sure I make it up to her.
> She told me, tears in her eyes, there is no need to compensate, just to truly love. Then she went on to repeat all things I did wrong in our early marriage.
I validated her, I told her I was not proud of the man I was and I do not want to go there again.
> She made a comment that I understand our separation was necessary.
I agreed
> She said my jealousy was an issue and she was free to be with anyone she wanted if not with me.
I told her I was immature and only wanted to know if her heart was in a place where she could feel love for me again. But of course she is free to do all she pleases
> before leaving she said she cannot be with me all of a sudden, she said she would only give us a chance because of the children.
I told her if ever she felt she could work on the M, I would make sure to take it slowly and towards a new, different relationship. I kissed my children goodbye and walked away feeling proud of all I am learning here.
I could feel she did not want to leave, she was emotional towards me and she came closer to me when talking (it is WILDLY incredible what self respect and distance make for the LBS). However, I woke up today feeling an idiot and crying this morning. I saw some light, but it was an illusion. I do not want a chance because of my children, I want her to know I am her best option, full stop and I will not be a part time father no matter what she thinks stability means. Sometimes I feel she just wont let her come back to me because of pride, what a shame for our two little demons.
Back to GAL, self respect and letting her go. I think she is starting to get a taste of what divorce means and it is not sweet, I will let her swallow it alone.
Btw, you are the professional help I meant, my psychologist in Munich was only focused on making me happy in a life without W as if I was dependent on her and I did not enjoy it. To me is experience what makes a professional and this is a place full of experience. Please keep helping me and commenting here.
Why do I get blocked when she talks to me and then all comes so clear in my mind the day after? I guess I need more healing, space and boundaries. On a side note, I think W liked my new clothes
Paco, I'm not one of the experts here so I avoid giving clear advice except for maybe mentioning what has worked for me in this process. But didn't you just tell her, in other words, that you will be there for her and take her back when and if she ever feels like it? The vets can correct me if I'm wrong but to me this conversation you had sounded like you let her know that you will be her plan B forever and that is not a good position to be in. The conversation also sounds like it's way too long.
hi BenB!
Yes, I have been thinking the whole day about how pathetic I have been and how I made that very same mistake, hi my new name is safetyNet!
Yes so my new clothes are attractive but my attitude kills it all. I need to reevaluate my position and the things under my control. this back and forth is the worst, I have just spent an afternoon I should have been working throwing myself a big fat pity party. You know the worst was listening to how I am 100% at blame again and she went as far as to say please tell me my mistakes I want to learn them to change them. To that I said look I am not here to tell you that, all I want now is to identify and change my mistakes.
I am the worst DBer on earth, but I will get there!
thanks for your reply Ben, the good thing is that now 2 days after these interactions happen I can dissect how and where I went wrong, I need to get to the point where I KNOW IT BEFORE I MAKE THE MISTAKE!
hugs! Paco
Hi Paco, I'm going to ask you a silly question--when did you feel you validated her? What does validation mean to you? Validation's an interesting topic so often confused with agreement, there's a whole thread on here trying to differentiate the two! On a 1-10 scale, how would you self-score, "I calmly told her I miss them same or more but that I understand what for her is now stability and routine"?
I wrote a big post, responding to every play-by-play in your previous update, then felt I was being too hard on you, and deleted it.
I told her if ever she felt she could work on the M, I would make sure to take it slowly and towards a new, different relationship. I kissed my children goodbye and walked away feeling proud of all I am learning here.
I could feel she did not want to leave, she was emotional towards me and she came closer to me when talking (it is WILDLY incredible what self respect and distance make for the LBS).
Honestly, I didn't see much difference in this conversation than in other times you apologized, admitted your mistakes, and tried to validate. You responded, by using too many words (which I can certainly relate to that problem). Now, I'm just a former WW, but it's hard to understand why you continue to allow emotionally charged bashing. What was said this time that hasn't been said previously?
You say you walked away feeling proud of all you are learning here. I am glad you feel you are learning, but I'll confess I'm a little frustrated b/c I don't see how it was applied. Last time, I thought you swore off these type of interactions with her. Look Pack, I suggest the feelings you experienced while walking away, were more an emotional release than pride. You and I are talkers. That's how we work things out, and it's difficult to see any other way to find a solution. So, I get it. I always feel better, too, but it doesn't mean the talk was effective. The last statement in your quote above is not what I was seeing in the conversation with her, but I know I was not there to witness it first hand. I saw no difference in her, than previously......but maybe you could. Can you say how long you have you been distant with her?
However, I woke up today feeling an idiot and crying this morning. I saw some light, but it was an illusion.
(((Pack))) These feelings are growing pains. The difference in how
you saw the situation and how I saw it, is that you were looking with your heart. Now, it sounds very sweet when I word it that way, but actually it's those emotions that can trick us into seeing what we want to see. It holds the LBH back in the DB process. I'm not saying you have to stop loving her, but you've got to stop repeating these old patterns. That's why we talk so much about DBing detaching. As long as your emotions are leading, the more vulnerable you will be, even to the point of not seeing clearly.
Hi Paco, I'm going to ask you a silly question--when did you feel you validated her? What does validation mean to you? Validation's an interesting topic so often confused with agreement, there's a whole thread on here trying to differentiate the two! On a 1-10 scale, how would you self-score, "I calmly told her I miss them same or more but that I understand what for her is now stability and routine"?
hi CW! I could feel she is coming from this selfish place where her routine and peace is what she understand should be a peacefully routine. I truly thought I was validating her feelings because then she went on to speak about how much we used to argue when leaving together and I could sense she has suffered that. I don't know, maybe you guys are right and I cannot validate properly. I stopped trying to read into every detail like I was doing at the beginning of this and just wanted to answer to her in a way that expresses my values.
The truth is inside myself I was shocked and offended. I was thinking, is this woman seriously telling me is better for my children to be picked up by a nanny than by their father because is the agreement we signed and is no longer valid? is she really implying that because I leave them with my sister to go running for 30 min I am less of a parent than she is?
Please help me, I could really sense she was calm and wanted to talk to me and I kind of let myself enjoy the moment. Maybe I was wrong, I need to show a strong man who walks away happily ALL THE TIMES.
I wrote a big post, responding to every play-by-play in your previous update, then felt I was being too hard on you, and deleted it.
Please shoot Sandi, I am here to learn and you have been my guiding light since the beginning. I am ready to listen to my mistakes and be the man I want to be and work hard to be that man.
What was said this time that hasn't been said previously?
Nothing, she told me I need professional help and she told me I must realize the separation was necessary. I validated those or at least I think I did. That was all novelty. It really hurt to hear her say if we have a chance if for the sake of the kids, is like "you cannot make me happy but for the sake of our 2 children I could settle for you" - I'm pathetic
You say you walked away feeling proud of all you are learning here. I am glad you feel you are learning, but I'll confess I'm a little frustrated b/c I don't see how it was applied. Last time, I thought you swore off these type of interactions with her. Look Pack, I suggest the feelings you experienced while walking away, were more an emotional release than pride. You and I are talkers. That's how we work things out, and it's difficult to see any other way to find a solution. So, I get it. I always feel better, too, but it doesn't mean the talk was effective. The last statement in your quote above is not what I was seeing in the conversation with her, but I know I was not there to witness it first hand. I saw no difference in her, than previously......but maybe you could. Can you say how long you have you been distant with her?
I really felt I could understand her pain and frustration on previous years when she would ask me to change and analyze our situation and I felt l was validating her, maybe I was not, I don't know.
I always feel a big area where I failed was that intimacy and time when the focus is 100% on her (as we spoke about on my first posts) that I did not deliver at home and when these opportunities come up I try to show love on that way and enjoy them. At the same time I only saw reaction from her when I walked away quickly after picking up the children. I think, correct me if I am wrong, you are trying to tell me I have never properly detached to a point that I limit my interactions to business alike with her, work on my changes for me and start showing her how much I value myself so that MAYBE one day she can see what she will be missing. You are right, I have always said I am not there and I feel like I am failing to fight for the most important thing in my life or at least I still have a long way to go. I would say I have been distant since early April, not much but I make the best to stay busy with exercise, work, friends and the children.
I am trying to set my boundaries but all has to be her way and don't you dare walking on me or I will use one of those hurtful comments that I know get to you. I just want her to be happy but above all I want to find my happiness back, alone and with my children, but she is a crazy roller coaster. When this all begun she said "you are selfish because you have chosen your work above your children" and now that I managed to change teams, I torn down all my life in Germany and I am here asking for 50% custody "oh you have a job where you need to travel and I will never expect you to leave it, that would be out of common sense". She is just finding excuses to make it all perfect for her and then comes my favorite sentence "I am crying everyday, I do not like this, but it is the best we can have".
@ Sandi, I need to cut conversation right? I need to give her a taste of the life she has chosen, where I am not present and she is losing a valuable man. I do talk a lot and talking is not needed now, is action.
She has asked me to talk this Thursday when I come get the children but it is always the same way, we talk in the door to her building as if we are two poor teenagers without a quiet place to chat. I dont want to talk, these conversations dont help. They make me believe there is something where there is nothing and leads her to think I am still here for whenever she decides to stop playing selfish-happy princess. What should I do? should I PM her that I do not want to talk, only pick up my children or just come there get my children and leave? What if she genuinely has thoughts about opening up and talking to me?
Thanks for your post, I really appreciate your help. Please Sandi have no mercy on me, I can guarantee I am stubborn but also a good learner. ((hugs)) Packs
Hi Paco,
I get feeling upset she believes she misses the kids more and would sacrifice more for them, given the context of where she's taking the family relationship. You exercised restraint.
Validating shows you understand her feelings. "I can see you miss them when they're away, and you especially hurt when you can't see them and I've left them in someone else's care." Validation doesn't imply agreement that she misses them more, has more parental instinct, or your going for short runs is an error. You don't have to validate, but "I miss them same or more" sounds more like disagreement than validation.
She made a comment that I understand our separation was necessary.
I agreed
I must realize the separation was necessary. I validated those or at least I think I did.
Agreeing separation was necessary does validate her. If that's your position--if you'd go back in time and say, "Paco and Paco's W, I'm you from the year 2020! With hindsight you two SHOULD separate"--agreeing is sensible. Note, you can also validate her without agreeing with her.
When you agree with someone's thoughts or feelings, you essentially take it on as your own. If I were to show you a ball and say, "The ball is blue" and you agreed with me, you would be saying that you also believe the ball to be blue.
Validating someone's thoughts or feelings is something used quite frequently in psychology and counseling, and is regarded by some to be a bit of an advanced communications skill that really relies on active listening.
By definition, you validate someone's thoughts or feelings by acknowledging that they make sense and you understand where they are coming from. You don't have to agree, nor do you have to take them on as your own. Additionally, it doesn't require you to actually defend someone's thoughts or feelings, but it does help during the communication for you to go over some of the reasons as to why they might think or feel the way they do.
hi again CW! Yes I did not mean to agree that she misses them. She complaint that sometimes I am not available and she is missing them awfully and I said I understood but I had been terrible busy with work, them and my life and my intention was never to reduce the amount of contact she gets while they are with me. I guess I did come up a bit argumentative, I need to work on that. I understand her feelings and then I move on, listen and move on.
Thanks a lot for the post on validation! I have some reading to do tonight! Thanks a lot CW! ((hugs))
Journal entry today,
I woke up feeling better. Every morning before I get up and at bed before sleeping I count my blessings and I reflect on how the day went. I hate living one day at a time, I am a man of future, of goals, I need a vision but these circumstances have proven stronger, I feel like my job is going to be a problem to get 50% custody but at the same time is the second best thing in my life now after my children. I hope everything works with both shared custody and my new job.
I have re-read my thread. I always get the feeling I am making those helping me, especially Sandi, frustrated with my inability to apply those lessons. I keep letting my W disrespect me, push me further from my S6 and S1, and get me involved in her emotional roller coaster as and when she wishes.
On the positive note I know where I failed and I will change it. I was surely as mistaken in thinking there is love in her for me as I think she is in believing we can never be happy together. Virtue is in the middle point so with a little hope I will make a life where I am happy with my children and I will leave the door open for her to fight for me.
This morning, while having breakfast, I have updated my short & mid term goals and I have divided them on the PIES.
- Improve my muscle mass and keep a healthy diet
- Run consistently 10k or up 3-4 times a week
- Lose any bad habits as biting my nails
- Use cologne, look and feel great even with jeans and t-shirt
- Promote to L6 at work
- Get my certifications for the new job
- Learn piano (I am on it)
- Get back into simracing my fav hobby - not too much as it is not very social
- Be the best father I can be
- No contact with W, I remain cordial for essentials
- Lovingly detach - much to learn here
- Learn and improve at validation
- Be humble and happy with the things I have
-
let go of W - Have a better relationship with God and the people in my life
- More time with friends, the good ones
- Sell our property in Germany
- Save to buy the car I always wanted - use it for road trips with my children
My W wants to talk on Thursday but I know what to say. There is nothing new she or I can bring right now ( I know her feelings and she knows mine) and I will not sit there to listen to how much of a dreadful man I am that she could only be with me because we share two children. Eventually someone will choose me and never let go of me and that person will choose me above all other men. Then I will use all the things I am learning in my books and here to build a rock solid relationship. My attitude was wrong, my timing was wrong and my focus was wrong. It's 19th May 2020 and from today on I will make the people who are helping me in this forum proud of me. You are putting time and effort in helping me, I am not giving back the effort you deserve. It will not be easy, but it will make me a better man for the future.
hi all!
Hope the quarantine is slowly coming back to normal at your houses. Yesterday we had to file the application for the nursery for S1 in 20/21. I had it on draft with all our information and I needed a number on the ID of W so as asked her. After talking about it she took over and she did the application, then she said she did not need my information and I called again to ask for her to add me as the father in the form.
The form asked for the members of the family unit and she started telling me that I dont live with them, that she has already filed her tax return as separated and other sort of BS. I reaffirmed the fact that the agreement we have is now cancelled and that I will be involved in the life of my son. She was as always furious, disrespectful and she hanged up on me a couple of times. After she called the nursery she was told I was supposed to be there even if we are separated and she called me again.
On the second conversation she told me I had decided to either reconcile or make it war, I corrected her and said I have the feeling she is pushing me away from my children and gave her a couple of examples of times where she pushed me to stay away from things because according to her I was living in Germany and it was none of my business.
She was talking under tears and said a number of hurtful things, to finally say that I am immature and hang up violently again.
I felt what I did and say are the things a strong father with clear ideas would but as always I am not proud of this interaction. I do not understand if she feels I have to pay for my mistakes or she really believes I am a man she would never want to be with but nothing I say or do seems to even soften our relationship.
Later yesterday I went to pick up the children, I was smiling but kept my distance. All was very cold and quick, I got the kids, they said goodbye and we left. I was thinking two things during that time. Firstly the man and father I want to be. Secondly all the things Sandi is trying so hard to teach me. Maybe I did hurt her so much nothing I can change or do now will make her see there is value and happiness in our family. Lately I have been really feeling like giving up, I also deserve someone who can value me, not someone who takes every chance to remind me that she does not miss me and she does not like anything about me.
Last time I tried to explain to W all the problems I have had in the past with money and how it turned me into a sad and miserable person and I can see how we both were unhappy she just dismissed it telling me it was a excuse. She also told me is normal for me to miss her because she was fully given to me while I was never thus she cannot miss me and she claimed some friends have told her they always thought I was a bit weird.
I try to let those things slip away but I am still amazed how she has managed to remain focus on the bad things, my defects, the atmosphere we had at home where we both were unhappy and my lack of communication skills. I have no value for this woman.
If I try to stand my ground as a father, she slaps me back. If I try to deny the hurtful things she has done and said, she reinforces them and if I start to distance myself she finds actions to show me how out of her life I am and how much she is over me. I genuinely thought during covid and after 8 months she would realise what matters in life and soften, I obviously need to control better my expectations and tune them down to none.
On the GAL side of things I had a great chat with a good friend who is a marathon runner about some pains on my knee while jogging daily. He has recommended me some great shoes and I ordered them last week. I also had a great conversation with my best friend yesterday and he was very encouraging. He said, Paco I could see you improving and you interact with W and go back massive steps. Forget W, she does not want the R you want now, keep working on a better you, I was proud of your changes. It's fantastic when someone acknowledges your changes, I was feeling indeed like taking massive steps back.
Thank you all and virtual hugs as always!
hi all,
Hope everyone is doing fine as Covid seems to be slowly dying and we adapt to a new way of living. I am having a bad week with W. She wrote a couple of times telling me to bring the kids back tomorrow as per our old agreement that is no longer valid and I stood strong. This was my reply.
''Good morning W. I will be bringing the kids next Thursday. The agreement you are trying to establish as our routine has no validity to my eyes or the law, please do not try to use it to justify your demands. I will be pursuing shared custody and I have already spoken to my lawyer. Now people can meet outside and I will be here when you decide to speak, I do not want to talk to you in the door of your building and in the presence of our children. They have suffered enough and that is the last thing they deserve now. Have a good day"
I am having a great time with kids. I have been going out with the bike and the older one almost daily and I am trying to teach him some tricks to gain confidence on the bike. The little one is also having great fun. We had a water balloon fight a couple of days ago, yesterday we went to the McAuto to pick up dinner and I keep reading them to sleep daily.
Things with W havent changed. I want to have hope and be the rock that carries the weight of the family but it is hard not to lose hope. Will I ever see a change in her heart? why would somebody have children with someone the love they feel for is seasonal? how long does she need to realise no tattoos or new jobs will bring her the happiness of a solid, loving and united family? I have made mistakes but I seriously doubt she has ever loved me. I never listened to her and I let our problems fester but I have changed my life to be close to our children and give our marriage a chance. I read all these stories about people fighting for years or going desperately to counseling for a marriage they care for. We never did any of that and we have two very big reasons to do it.
All I have received from her over the past weeks has been "I dont want to be with you, I am free to be with whoever I want and if it wasn't for our kids I would have moved on by now". I have been reading a lot about boundaries and detaching lately, I really hope I can apply now the things I read to make the people that are helping me proud of my changes. I talk a lot to my S6, he enjoys being with me and is proud of my changes. I wish I had not made so many mistakes at the beginning of this. I thought being nice to my W was a way of showing her I love her and want her to be happy. I will try to show her happiness is in our united family, but enough of the nice guy. There are people in my life that admire and respect me way more than my W and I have given them much less of me. Almost 10 months since DB and I am starting to see I might get my family back because it does not depend on me.
I hope you are all having a great week!
hugs, Packs
Packs, congratulation on asserting equal custody after double-checking with an attorney. That's fantastic! It will mean so much to your children in the years to come.
hi all!
I have more news on the shared custody.
So the other day we had a discussion where W told me she wants to go back to normal routine where I get the children 5 days every 2 weeks and my reply was I have to think about it. The separation agreement that is based on is not valid and I signed it under her threads and when I was feeling all the guilt of our problems and I was not sure I could come to live in Spain and preserve my job. To this she said "no you dont have to think anything..." and she went on and on about how she loves them more than I do and can sacrifice herself more than I do.
Anyway she was expecting me to bring the children to her yesterday and she called me twice on a threatening tone. I calmly told her the covid situation was not over, the agreement we have is not valid and I am fighting for shared custody so I want the kids to get used to that after a lot of my personal effort to have a job that allowed me to live here. Around 8 pm she texted me again saying she was expecting me to bring the kids. I ignored it and gave the phone to my S6 to videocall her.
In the middle of the call and much to my surprise she started asking S6 when he wanted to go with her and if he was going to go with her today. Of course my S6 loves spending time with me and he started asking what day of the week that was. I was furious inside but remained calm. I cannot believe she would use the kids to get her way, I would never do that. When I am without them I patiently swallow my pain and wait for the day I can pick them up again.
This morning I was working and I got a call from her. Her words were "I expect the children today before lunch. I am very aware of my rights and I will exert them". I calmly told her I was working and I would give them the children tomorrow. Then I got a call from her lawyer, I ignored it and called mine.
My lawyer told me to remain calm, she said she is the typical uterus mother and it is not the time to fight now, we will get the shared custody. She told me to return the kids today as we have been doing during covid, Thursday to Wednesday the week after with me, and to reinforce that the agreement she keeps referring to is not valid. She also told me is very unprofessional for her lawyer to call me and asked me to remain calm.
So I had to tell my son he is finally coming back with mom one day earlier and I am packing them now for that purpose. I have only told my 2 best friends and they both agreed that she is just trying to hurt me and projecting her problems and self blame on me. oh btw, she used one very political email to reinforce that she "has done nothing wrong to me, except for stop wanting me as her partner".
I have had a terrible week at work with all her threatening. One day she tells me she cries everyday and hates this and the next one she is telling me she does not want to have nothing to do with me in her future. I know it should not affect me but I am not that strong yet. My lawyer has told me to brace for a contentious divorce, I have a clear picture of the man and the father I want to be, I just cannot understand for my W is easier to focus on my mistakes and my blame and not to see the status of our family. Should I file for divorce and shared custody?
I want to fight for my marriage, I would give all I have to get my family back and I want to change for myself and my children but I cannot take so much blame and hat anymore. It has been 10 months and she keeps blaming, insulting, ignoring me, disrespecting me. I cannot go away because my children are there but there is only so much one can take. I have made mistakes and I have looked into myself for forgiveness and the strength to change but this woman has chosen to blame me and hate me. When I go today to given them the children I will be happy, look great and say goodbye the first!
Packs, congratulation on asserting equal custody after double-checking with an attorney. That's fantastic! It will mean so much to your children in the years to come.
Thanks CW! My W had me totally persuaded that my job and shared custody were not compatible, but I will make it work, my children need me more than ever!
I want to fight for my marriage, I would give all I have to get my family back and I want to change for myself and my children but I cannot take so much blame and hat anymore.
You see fighting for your marriage in only one way. Think outside the box, Pack.
When will you realize it is not about you? You could be
perfect in doing all the things you should have done while she was living with you. You've worked hard to win her back......and she would not be kind to you. Why? B/c this situation is
not about Pack. Do you hear me? You are no longer the problem for this separation. You are
not the reason a reconciliation has not occurred.
Stop trying to
fight for your marriage. All it accomplishes is fighting
with her.
She is the problem, and you are not going to win her heart. You cannot
make someone love you, if they don't want it. She never has a kind word, and she has been terrible to you ever since she moved out. She has no respect for you as a man. Her hatred for you is harming the children, and she will get worse........especially, if she senses that you still want her. She knows you want her back. Do you really want her as the woman she is today, or is it the home & family atmosphere you are really missing. Is it the idea of getting another chance that you really crave? I'm not saying you don't love her. I do believe you would do much better if you would let go of trying to get "
good enough" for her to change her mind.
Continue being a good father to your children, but let go of trying to convince her that you've changed. It's only making things worse for you and the children. You need a clear head in upcoming decisions. Previously, you tried to give her what she wanted with the children's schedule, based on your emotions at that time. You see how she wants to use it to her advantage now.
Follow your lawyer's advice.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying you've made a mistake in your recent interactions. I think your response to her demands was handled
very well! I'm only explaining that your other option in the separation is to let her go, b/c the problem is not Pack. I think you are beginning to see it, but feel that you must continue trying to prove yourself to her, and convince her that the MR would be much better b/c of your improvements. Proving your changes
to her is what I want you to
stop doing. It's not about you becoming a better H for her. Initially, you could not think of anything else, and sometimes, that thought process can hinder.
I think you are listening a little better, but her calls with threats & manipulation take a toll on you emotionally. Is there a part of you that feels you
deserve to be treated in this manner? Don't tolerate disrespect, b/c it will never cause a woman to feel love/desire. You don't deserve this type of treatment from her.
You need to let her go.
Protect your feelings!
Continue to use written text messages as your means of communication.
Keep us updated.
((hugs))
What Sandi has said is incredible advice, read and then re-read it.
There isn’t anything you can do right now to wake her up. You could do 1000 interactions with her, absolutely perfectly, for the next six months - and nothing will change. You have been manipulated over time to believe that everything you say or do will control if this works out or not.
You seem to have the traits of a nice guy in a similar way to me. Could I recommend you read “No More Mr Nice Guy”? It certainly helped me to understand me.
It has been 10 months and she keeps blaming, insulting, ignoring me, disrespecting me.
So you have been treated very very poorly by her for quite awhile. What is it that makes you want to be in a R with this version of her? I do understand the impact of having kids together and how that can cause you to put up with a lot to avoid blowing up the family unit, but at some point you have to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself the hard questions about whether you are really happy and whether this person is good for you. If your best friend was in your sitch, and being treated how you have been treated, and asked you for advice, what would tell him to do?
You are getting yourself on the right track. Listen to your L. Go get 50/50 custody. Stay calm in all, ALL, interactions with her. Never take the bait. Never argue. NEVER a bad word about her to the kids. Your R with her, at least for the time being, is just all business, nothing else. She can stomp and shout and threaten and insult and on and on and it DOES NOT AFFECT YOU. You are a calm and unwavering slab of granite. In fact, you may even find her behavior to be somewhat amusing, like watching a child throw a tantrum. She cannot get to you. GAL GAL GAL. Be an Amazing Dad.
Keep improving, you may not believe at the moment how things will get better, but they will if you are committed to the right path.
hi all!
What can I say, I leave some days the board and I come back to find the words I needed the most. Thank you so much, your words keep me going. I have a daily calendar reminder to make Sandi proud of the work and time she has put on me.
So let me get started with GAL, life with my kids has been amazing, they love me more than I ever thought possible and it just fuels my chest. I ran 16k for the first time the other day, another night I took my car at 23 pm to drive down a lonely mountain road for 1 hr, I have bought more clothes and I had my myopia operated the other day (bye bye glasses), which is something I always wanted to save for.
So as you know I asked for a new custody agreement via my L and I requested to reduce the pension. Her reply came today through my L. She wants us to D instead of simply separate, she wants the same pension as when I was visiting because otherwise it will be hard to pay rent and she wants me to cover additional costs for the children. This is not how I imagined she asking me for the D formally but I guess it was going to happen eventually.
I made the mistake of calling her today, I told her I do not want divorce and if she ever has different thoughts here I am but we can go on if it is what she wants. She went on and on telling me how I have gone behind her back in getting a second lawyer instead of talking to her, how I have not changed and continued to harm her and how I am putting our children in the middle of this. For her the fact that I found a second lawyer behind her proves I am still a bad person and the fact that I tell my S I want the family together means I want to make her the bad one in front of them. W said for her our M is not important now because she does not see herself with me and hence it is the same if we are S or D.
My self confidence, my cheerfulness and my emotional status all took a bad hit today. I always thought protecting myself would show her I am a strong man and I will cover my interest as I have learnt from this B. I never thought we would get divorced without having the chance to sit down and talk about our problems or how to make things work.
I told her next week I will sit down with my L, if by then I have not heard from her otherwise I will assume she still wants D and I will prepare a response for her L. I no longer know if what I am doing is right or not, if I am weak in front of her or not. I cried a lot today, I am crying as I type this and it will probably be a long night. Tomorrow we need to go to the nursery of S1 to sign the new application at 9:30. I dont know if I need to be kind or cold or neutral. Is funny enough that now I am not scared of D, but it still causes the same pain I imagined it would the day she took the step.
W says we need to be mature and keep the C aside from this. I told her I am doing my best but it is impossible to keep them from missing each of us when we are apart and they will suffer the consequences of a D. I dont know why I keep trying to reason with her, she is far too gone. I dont know how the man I want to be would react to D. The man I want to be knows and values above all the value of the family he wants his children to have and the vows he took in front of W. At the same time, the man I want to be would never allow an unreasonable childish woman ruin his life. I told myself if W asked me for a D it would be the last interaction we would have, now what? I guess I need to be a man and follow through with my promises to myself.
Thank you for all your help. God knows I have tried but she just has chosen to blame me and never allow herself to see me as anything but a source of pain. She told me today if she had come to Spain without a legal agreement I would have sued her when it was me who suggested she came here like that and we could talk about our issues. I cannot begin to understand the picture of me she has built in her head. I have changed my life to be here and I genuinely thought I would make it easier for us to sit down and talk.
How can someone bring D to the table in such a cold way? As I said before, friends keep recognizing how much I am changing and that I am better now, I guess that means I am doing something right. GAL GAL GAL and getting used to single lifestyle.
Sandi, what do you mean by these 2 sentences? could you elaborate please?
You see fighting for your marriage in only one way. Think outside the box, Pack.
Protect your feelings!
thanks!
Diary entry,
I had a BD party yesterday from a female friend from university. There were plenty of 29sh women to talk to and I used the chance to see how I am doing with my regained confidence. Problem is most of them are on their way to M or pregnant so I used the night to enjoy some casual conversation about mundane topics with these friends.
I talked to a friend about how W has brought up D via her L without talking to me and he reassured me that nothing has changed as far as I am concerned. He said most of our common friends believe W has a distorted view on our relationship and he encouraged me to continue to view this L to L conversation as a business transaction.
I the afternoon I talked to W, I told her I will prepare a response for her petition but this is not what I want. She told me I have not changed a bit and since she knows she cannot be happy with me she will not come back to me despite the pain she feels that their children do not have their dad under the same roof. She told me she has made many sacrifices for me by coming to live to the UK and Germany with me, leaving behind friends and family so that I could have the jobs I wanted and on my side I did the basis of what every father does, stop spending money in hobbies and going out and instead providing money for the family. She said that until I cannot understand and agree with her views she cannot talk to me about anything else than the kids. I told her I know I failed as a husband in many aspects but I cannot repair the damage I have done if I cannot even talk to her and she reaffirmed how I have been unfair by finding a second L behind her back instead of talking to her about shared custody and the fact that I know live in the same city as her.
I asked her if then D is the plan since we cannot have a cordial conversation about us and she said right now is what we are doing and she is not willing to have a conversation about us. I am very lost right now, I dont know if I need to move on from all the harm and emotional abuse or if I need to ignore D and keep my GAL activities as a fight for my marriage.
What is the right thing to do now? Down the line in 10 years time, when I look at my children I want to be proud of whatever I choose to do now? How does a man who firmly believes in the vows of his marriage and the value of his family react to a wife who just wants to blame and divorce him?
I am sick of receiving ignorance and disrespect from her. I talked to some women yesterday and you can instantly feel some level of joy and admiration when I was listening to their stories about work, covid, moving back to Seville and other things. It was a good night, I laughed and made others laugh. I hope there are many more of those to come.
Today back to work on my certification, some weight lifting, running and eating healthy. I spend a lot of time thinking about how D, despite the most likely, was never the outcome I expected deep in my heart. I guess I will have a couple of days to grieve and then go back to my GAL. Please dont be too harsh on me, I am not scared of D anymore, it is just the pain it causes in my soul to think that my W is so determined to break our commitment to each other.
I had a BD party yesterday from a female friend from university. There were plenty of 29sh women to talk to and I used the chance to see how I am doing with my regained confidence. Problem is most of them are on their way to M or pregnant so I used the night to enjoy some casual conversation about mundane topics with these friends.
Hi Pack. I don’t have advice for you but as someone who is in the same situation, I share your sentiment. We’re both at a stage where we trying to do the right thing but kept second guessing ourselves. It’s difficult.
Also, Happy belated birthday. do we share the same birthday? Mine’s on the 24th.
Pack, these R talks you have with her, ask yourself if they're really necessary at this point? They certainly don't seem to be helping. How many more times do you wish to explain to her that you are there as her plan B whenever she feels like it?
Talking about wanting to repair the damage you have done and asking her if divorce is her plan since you can't have conversations about the two of you, are those things that you should be talking about to her right now? Sandi gave you some great advice earlier and told you to stop trying to fight for your marriage yet those are the words you still use. GAL activities - great! But you do those for you, not as a strategy to fight for your marriage.
You still seem so focused on her when you should let her go and focus on you.
Stop calling your W and initiating R talks. You are not going to talk her into respecting you and wanting to save the MR. You are not going to talk her into anything right now.
It's all business now and the business is kids' logistics, which can be handled by text. There is no need to be talking to her right now. This is my opinion. I think it's what is best for you right now as there is no way to initiate R talks if you are not talking.
Marching orders to your L - get me 50% custody starting tomorrow. Now. Get it done now. I want 50% custody right now. If you are entitled to it, get it. Don't delay.
Shore up your boundaries and then enforce them. There are many ways to enforce boundaries, I have used them all. Use the methods that work best for you. As you gain strength you will be able to deploy a variety of boundary enforcing techniques effortlessly. Your W will treat you how you permit her to treat you.
Keep GAL, keep improving, stay positive! Be strong and positive! Things will get better, much better.
Oh, and one more thing - stop calling your W and initiating R talks.
Hang in there buddy.
hi all! hope everyone is having a great summer start, at least as great as we can me it for ourselves!
@funbun - Thanks a lot for your comment! this was not my BD party, but a friends. It is being hard to speak to female equals in Seville. All friend groups are very close and many of them know me already as this is not a very big city. TBH, I dont really need it but it is a boost in moral and confidence.
@BenB - Thanks for tuning in! I have spent the last few days reading the golden nuggets compiled by AS and I have started thinking that any woman would be lucky to have me. I take care of myself physically, I have a great career and good values and I care about others. I am emotionally still in a weak spot and you are right I might be selling the idea that I am Mr plan B but believe me I am not engaging in any more R talks until her journey is complete and she can see I was also unhappy and I am no monster who harms the people around him.
@Gekko - Same as with active listening, empathy and validation; I am practicing boundaries with family, friends, W and children. I try to be loving and strong at the same time, I feel like I am really improving myself and the people who are in touch with me. I have been focusing on improving S6 swimming abilities. Having lived in the UK and Germany he is now a late swimmer for the spanish standards and I am helping him regain confidence and improving the way he floats and uses his arms. I will be hitting the piano hard soon, now the job ML certification is done so I have more time for other GAL activities.
I remember reading in your thread you have filtered many good self improvement videos and resources after going through a lot of BS. would you kindly share the best ones with me Gekko? Thanks a lot. with that I am going to move to a new post.
hi all,
I need some support because I am quite lost with how things are evolving. As I posted last time, W asked me for D through her L last week, it took a toll on me emotionally but I used sports, my children and friends to minimize the impact. A couple of days ago W invited me to her house over for a conversation, we talked for about 3 hours and this is more or less how it went.
W wanted me to open so I told her I had nothing new to say. She know perfectly how I feel about our M, our family and I said she is free to have the D if she wants it but I do not agree and will never state I don't want to be married to her, our M was a farce or I regret committing myself to her. She told me she sees no changes in me because I still think she does not care about the family and the way I seeked a second L and I tried to enforce shared custody without talking to her and she sees those actions as reason to believe I haven't changed. Since her feelings are still the same and she saw no changes she thought about ending all for once and hence the D. I apologized for any action that might have led her to feel that way but I explained to her I was following my L and IC support and I wanted to defend my position as a man.
She said a man does not reduce the pension like a miserable human or force the children to stay with their grandparent when he travels for work. I told her I felt she was not able to separate the law process in between us that she started from what I am as a man and partner. She stated that for her the way I behave during the legal process says a lot about what kind of man I am. I replied that I do not care or worry for many nowhere near as much as I did, I know I had lots of issues in the past but now it was purely about what is fair. The chat went on and on like that, she told me I have very poor if any emotional intelligence, I told her I can see why you feel that way I have also realized my behavior was very poor. She attacked me, I agreed and tried to validate her feelings. Then she asked me about her issues, I said I had missed her physically a lot and I missed having a partner that I can share my hobbies with. She blamed me for those too, saying she wont come close to me if there is not emotional connection and that I had done a bad job expressing those hobbies to her. She also talked about how S was necessary because of the way we were all the time fighting at home and she told me I had only seen all my issues after S. I said I understood she must have felt a lot of frustration and that I apologized for not having taken action before on me.
About 3 or 4 times she told me she was not in a place to talk R or go out with me even for a walk. She also mentioned if we do R it will not be by going to retrouvaille or similar, but slowly via talking. To sum up, she seemed very keen to understand my demands from the legal process, she insisted she has no feelings for me, we are S and she is free as a bird, I am 99.5% at blame, I have not changed and she can stick to a legal S with no promises that we will ever R. I remained calm and strong throughout the conversation, calling it on her BS in a calm way, telling her all the times she criticizes me and not my behavior on a particular point in time and how negative that is, admitting my flaws and stating very clearly that I wasnt happy either and she is free to think of me as she wants, I have very clear values and goals as a father and man. W cried during our conversation, I think it was genuine because it was not fake tears, but instead the ones that slowly flood your eyes until they unavoidably come out.
S6 was asking if I could stay to play or dinner but I left around 11 pm. I tried to kiss her cheek goodbye and she moved away in front of S6. I dont know how I still expose myself to all that disrespect.
I arrived home and I cried, my brain was torn between two ideas. Either I had just received the worst emotional manipulation from W to make sure she has enough alimony to live in the house she is now (better than mine btw) or I really managed a calm conversation were I showed her I can listen, be calm and constructive. I struggled with thoughts like, "did you not see how she moved back? she still treats you as an infected, the way she talks about going out and being free, focking let her go and have a good acid taste of what she is losing, be the man you were for you and your children, that man had no issues getting as many women as he wanted!" or others like "a woman who brings D to the table in such an ugly way is not having second thoughts, she is just very out of love".
The next morning I went to see my lawyer, I told her the story and how lost I was. I said, L, help me, I am in your hands. I do not know what I should do and I feel like I might be being manipulated in a heavy way. My L said, Pack, I told you I thought you were being too harsh with the reduction in alimony based on your salary difference, I agree with your W that the way you behave in this process speaks about what a man you are. I am here to cover your interest. She suggested we raise alimony a bit, we add a condition that the moment W reaches certain salary level alimony is over and I leave the kids with her when I have to travel for work. She told me not to be scared of D and she said she was proud the way I was acting in a calm way and that I would never regret using my salary to give my children a better life quality, even when they are with W.
When I look in the mirror, when I go to sleep and when I speak to God I am proud of both my actions and attitude and the man I am working to become. I re-read the advice from Sandi 4-5 times a day and I am working to stop fighting for my M. I am going to save Pack, his integrity as a man, his happiness, his value as a friend, father and son. I will stop all contact with W in terms of telling her I want to rebuild our M.
yesterday I went to meet my best friend's newborn baby, Lola. being there, talking about birth and the feelings it brought up all these memories from when we had our S1 in Munich, when W was pregnant last time and all that we lived together in a country where language was a challenge. W had a very fast delivery, to the point that the relaxed german doctors did not have the time to give her the epidular and S1 had a painful natural birth. W was exhausted after all but I was with her all the time and that night, breaking the rules of the german hospital, I stayed with S1 overnight so that she could have some rest. It was one of the happiest days in my life.
I feel sad, like I have lost the most valuable things I ever had because of my internal problems. I did a lot of crying at home, truth is my W has given me some amazing things and I have two wonderful minimonsters thanks to our R.
I am having some bad days and I could really use some views and help from the board! thanks a lot for all your support and help, please keep posting. I need this more than ever these days
Hi Pack, I hear the sadness in your post. I wish I knew something to say that would help you feel better. As long as you continue to have those "conversations" (as she calls them) you will continue to experience this depression. When I read your account of the R talks, it sounds the same each time. She wants you to listen while she verbally tears you down and says you have not changed. And, what does Paco do? He continues in a THREE HOUR encounter with a female who does not respect him as a man! Why? Why do you put yourself through this punishing ordeal? Why do you continue to go down this cheeseless tunnel?
I'm sorry you are so sad. I don't know how you could feel any other way, after the beating you take from your W. Divorce will not change anything, if you continue to show up whenever she summons you for a talk. Do you realize you don't have to prove anything to her? I've tried to tell you to stop that mindset where you attempt to show her how improved you've become. As far as I can tell, you still seem to think you should endure her insults and put-downs, while you show your validation skills.
I have a question I hope you will consider. Are you really in love with this woman? If so, why? Perhaps you loved the girl you thought you were marrying, IDK. But do you love her now? I wonder if you love the concept of marriage and family, more than actually loving the person she has become. You have talked a lot about not wanting to lose your family. Your children are your family, and you won't lose them.
(((Paco)))
hi all! Sandi thanks a lot for your words. Let me first ask for help on a new matter and then provide an update about how I am doing.
I recently talked to my L and made a proposal in terms of custody and alimony. W came back saying I am miserable for deducing 200 Eur a month in alimony when that is no difference in my lifestyle and would mean she might need to consider moving out (she has moved into the best neighborhood in Seville). I told her she has never clarified her expenses to me, I only followed my L recommendation and I cannot believe she continues to mix who I am as a man and the legal process she has started between us.
Last friday we talked about this, I said I would talk to my L and update terms. When I was at her place talking about this my S6 asked about 6 times if I could stay over for dinner. I had a party with my friends so I ended up leaving. From her side there is always more of the same, "you have not changed because if you would had you would understand that I left you and I came back to Spain and I did nothing wrong" or "I am not going to start dating you now, I do not feel anything and I dont know if I can ever feel anything, we are separated and that is the current situation, accept it and move on. If we are never back, that does not make me a bad person. Every time you blame me I feel like you do not understand me"
Later at the party with my friends a good friend of mine told me if I can pay those extra 200 Eur is just money and worth avoiding the friction with my W and I should see this as the responsibility of having 2 children in this world. I am very lost, I have tried to make a stand as a man and she has used D as a threat because all of a sudden her financial situation is no longer secure as she needs alimony (well she always claims is for the kids and I am taking money from them and forcing them to move out). She has used this as an excuse to say I have not changed and I still have the same issues with money and blaming her and she says when I "really"change she will see it. I dont know what to do, I will see my L again Wednesday but I am torn between the decision to pay her all she wants or remain strong and get D because she is just in that point (I am also sick of hearing "my feelings havent changed since I left"). Those 200 Eur mean nothing to me, is more the feeling of paying for her new life where all doors are shut to the monster I am and our M vows are useless words on a paper.
You should have seen the face on my S6 when I told him I had to leave and hugged him, he was sad, upset and broken. Yes Sandi you are right, I dont like this woman and the way she treats me with no respect or admiration. I am a monster to her and the source of all this unhappiness, but I would try to change that for the sake of my children. I am afraid you are right and I cannot change her feelings or make her love me again.
I have spent the weekend at the beach with friends but I was down. I keep having this feeling that all she wants is financial support and to get me as far as possible from her. The last couple of times I tried to start casual conversation with W she comes back to me with sentences as "I am busy with the kids" or "I am having dinner" and nothing else. I dont understand all the times she says I didnt want this, I am going through a very harsh time, I cry every day and when we have a chance to sit down face to face is all blame and excuses to avoid a new fresh start. Early Aug it will be the first anniversary of DB, I am much better and using my GAL activities to fuel my inner strength but I dont know what to do anymore.
What do you all mean by stop fighting for your M? Should I live a life where my R side is frozen? I know I have to leave her alone. It's been a full year and her feet are planted on the very same spot. I am tired and lonely, I go to bed every night to our marital bed alone and I force myself to keep a single happy man state of mind. The coldness she uses to speak about D... it blows my mind. The other day she told me we had S6 by accident as a young couple and S1 when she was in a bubble to make our R work no matter what, but we have never had intimacy. If I try to talk to her about how we both need to work on this, she feels like I am blaming her and not accepting I was the sole cause of the failure of our M. Then there are things like, I cannot understand you say DB hurt you when our R was dead long ago and not much changed when I started closing doors to you and treating you as if we were formally S. At some point she even said making her be with me would be like forcing me to marry a woman I find cute but is totally unknown to me...
I guess I undergo these "conversations" because she always says if we are to ever R it will not be via Retrouvaille or anything similar but rather progressively by talking and then doing things together. I never thought we would spend this summer separated, I know I had issues and I am working to erase them, but I never thought the harm I caused her through my emotional inability and selfishness was so big to break our family forever. I continue to work on myself, one step at a time, I am now reading "The ways of the superior man" after having finished "His needs, her needs" and I last Saturday I beat my personal 10k best time at now 48 mins 50 secs.
Human mind is wicked, all I can think of is those great moments we have lived together and her mind is focused on every discussion, every time she felt ignored or rejected... I admitted to her I probably have a pink view of our R but I know I wasnt happy either and I want something really different with her and she is the most valuable thing I had in my life. I am learning so much from my books, I started listening to women actively and I have identified a list of frustrations I had in my R with W and I will never allow to happen again (as in I will speak out next time I am in a R about this).
Again apologies for my long post, I need somewhere to write about this. W has told me I have wasted opportunities to come closer to her but I honestly cannot think when!! She has used the stupid legal terms in our S agreement to judge me as a man and reinforce her belief that I have not changed and cannot assume my blame. She will only talk to me about the separation agreement, is like a $%#^# flashback to munich october last year when all she wanted from me was the agreement signed to come to Spain. For all other matters I get cold answers as if she wanted to avoid me. I am not forcing her to be with a bad man or to go back to the R we had, why wont she see that?
Life is freaking good, I have 2 amazing children with a woman who doesnt feel an inch of love for me. Talk about series in Netflix, life can be much more entertaining!
Can you please help me with this anxiety about the time it has been since she left home? What do I need to do? cut any talks with W? Thank you all for your time and help! please keep posting, I need the support from this board more than ever. Everyone talks to me about how the right woman will come in the future and I need to forget about W and get over my D.
You see fighting for your marriage in only one way. Think outside the box, Pack.
What would some out of the box thinking look like?
Pack_19, outside the box thinking is INSIDE THE DB BOX THINKING. And what I see in your long post......is VERY little DBing.
Wife: "W came back saying I am miserable for deducing 200 Eur a month in alimony when that is no difference in my lifestyle and would mean she might need to consider moving out"
Your response should have been: "I see that you are upset. However, I prefer to have legal matters discussed between our Ls. Please have your L respond to mine. What I won't do is stand here and be spoken down to." THEN TURN AND LEAVE!!
Later at the party with my friends a good friend of mine told me if I can pay those extra 200 Eur is just money and worth avoiding the friction with my W and I should see this as the responsibility of having 2 children in this world. I am very lost, I have tried to make a stand as a man and she has used D as a threat because all of a sudden her financial situation is no longer secure as she needs alimony (well she always claims is for the kids and I am taking money from them and forcing them to move out). She has used this as an excuse to say I have not changed and I still have the same issues with money and blaming her and she says when I "really"change she will see it. I dont know what to do, I will see my L again Wednesday but I am torn between the decision to pay her all she wants or remain strong and get D because she is just in that point (I am also sick of hearing "my feelings havent changed since I left"). Those 200 Eur mean nothing to me, is more the feeling of paying for her new life where all doors are shut to the monster I am and our M vows are useless words on a paper.
Be very careful with advice from people that are too close to your situation. And yes, a good friend is too close. Your friend has only one goal, he is trying to get your pain to stop as quickly as possible. He sees you in pain and it pains him. So he suggests something that "smooths things over" in an effort to get you to a pain-free place as quickly as possilble. This friend's heart is in the right place, but his advice is all wrong. See my suggested response above? You need to command respect right now. If you have any chance of ever Ring, it will not be by trying to nice her back. Women cannot be attracted to a man they do not respect, and your W does not respect you. 200 Eur here, 200 Eur there. She will try to bilk you for every Eur she can. Standing up for yourself may not make her like you, but by golly it will make her respect you!
In high school, there as a girl I was interested in. She was very cute. One day I finally worked up the nerve during class to turn around to her (she sat right behind me) and say something flirtatious to her. Her response was "I am going to have my BF kick your -donkey-." LOL I looked at her and said "Fine, tell him to bring it on." And turned back around.
The next day I didn't acknowledge her. Finally, during some open time in class she tapped my on the shoulder. I turned around and she struck up a conversation with me. She never once mentioned her BF again to me, and a few weeks later she intimated to me that they had broken up. I could tell she was interested but my feelings by that time had changed,and we remained friends through high school. My response to her initial threat, and then my acting "as if" afterward made her respect me. And with respect comes attraction.
You should have seen the face on my S6 when I told him I had to leave and hugged him, he was sad, upset and broken. Yes Sandi you are right, I dont like this woman and the way she treats me with no respect or admiration. I am a monster to her and the source of all this unhappiness, but I would try to change that for the sake of my children. I am afraid you are right and I cannot change her feelings or make her love me again.
Always tough to see the kids in pain because their parents are splitting up. But that is out of your hands. You did the right thing by not staying. AS long as she treats you with no respect you need to continue to distance yourself from her. Be his father, but stop trying to be her husband. One day your S will understand whose fault all this was.
Your goal right now is to COMMAND respect. Do not verbally demand it, that will sound weak and unattractive. Just act in ways that COMMAND it. Like the above. When she is being disrespectful, END THE CONVERSATION AND WALK AWAY. We teach people on to treat us. You need to start teaching her that she cannot treat you that way.
I have spent the weekend at the beach with friends but I was down. I keep having this feeling that all she wants is financial support and to get me as far as possible from her. The last couple of times I tried to start casual conversation with W she comes back to me with sentences as "I am busy with the kids" or "I am having dinner" and nothing else. I dont understand all the times she says I didnt want this, I am going through a very harsh time, I cry every day and when we have a chance to sit down face to face is all blame and excuses to avoid a new fresh start. Early Aug it will be the first anniversary of DB, I am much better and using my GAL activities to fuel my inner strength but I dont know what to do anymore.
Good job on the GAL! However, 2x4 time. It sounds like you allowed your feelings to dictate your actions. "I was down, and I acted down." One of the truths I learned in my sitch? Actions dictate feelings! So force yourself to NOT act down and low-and-behold, your feelings will follow suit!
AND FOR PETE'S SAKE STOP INITIATING CONVERSATION WITH HER! One of the first DB principles is to remove all pressure and pursuit. To not follow her her around and beg for attention. To be the one to END conversations, not the one to start them. When you are around her you act upbeat, happy, pleased. You do not start conversation. When she does, you listen and validate. And the be the busy one! "I have to go take care of XYZ..." then to take care of XYZ!
Stop begging for crumbs!
What do you all mean by stop fighting for your M? Should I live a life where my R side is frozen? I know I have to leave her alone. It's been a full year and her feet are planted on the very same spot. I am tired and lonely, I go to bed every night to our marital bed alone and I force myself to keep a single happy man state of mind. The coldness she uses to speak about D... it blows my mind. The other day she told me we had S6 by accident as a young couple and S1 when she was in a bubble to make our R work no matter what, but we have never had intimacy. If I try to talk to her about how we both need to work on this, she feels like I am blaming her and not accepting I was the sole cause of the failure of our M. Then there are things like, I cannot understand you say DB hurt you when our R was dead long ago and not much changed when I started closing doors to you and treating you as if we were formally S. At some point she even said making her be with me would be like forcing me to marry a woman I find cute but is totally unknown to me...
"What do you all mean by stop fighting for your M?" It means what you are doing. Get your L to move things forward with custody and alimony. It means to stop trying to save the MR, and start trying to save you. It means commanding respect! It mean start preparing for the worst (you can still hope for the best). Are yiou in IC? If not, get into IC! GAL, 180 (self-improve), and work on detachment, which you clearly are not doing a good job of!
"Should I live a life where my R side is frozen?" You should live where your R is OVER, because it is. It might start a new against someday, but for now you assume it is over.
"I know I have to leave her alone. It's been a full year and her feet are planted on the very same spot. I am tired and lonely, I go to bed every night to our marital bed alone and I force myself to keep a single happy man state of mind. The coldness she uses to speak about D... it blows my mind. The other day she told me we had S6 by accident as a young couple and S1 when she was in a bubble to make our R work no matter what, but we have never had intimacy." This is because you are DBING WITH EXPECTATIONS! Constantly GAL, to see if it works. 180ing, to see if it works. Acting detached, to see if it works. No one EVER, EVER DBs well with one eye over their shoulder. So stop looking for reactions and changes from her. GAL, 180, and detach....FOR YOURSELF
"If I try to talk to her about how we both need to work on this, she feels like I am blaming her and not accepting I was the sole cause of the failure of our M." STOP TALKING TO HER ABOUT THIS!! It makes you look pathetic, weak and unattractive. And it breaks one of the core DB principles: "DO NOT INITIATE R TALKS!"
"Then there are things like, I cannot understand you say DB hurt you when our R was dead long ago and not much changed when I started closing doors to you and treating you as if we were formally S. At some point she even said making her be with me would be like forcing me to marry a woman I find cute but is totally unknown to me..." BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS, and only half of what she does. My goodness, you are hanging on her every word. You cannot trust a thing that comes out of her mouth right now, and you certainly should not be going down the rabbit hole of trying to figure it out! This W is a WAS...she lost in Neverland. And you are trying to figure out what her words mean? You'd have more success chasing pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Stop putting energy into things that are cheeseless tunnels.
I guess I undergo these "conversations" because she always says if we are to ever R it will not be via Retrouvaille or anything similar but rather progressively by talking and then doing things together. I never thought we would spend this summer separated, I know I had issues and I am working to erase them, but I never thought the harm I caused her through my emotional inability and selfishness was so big to break our family forever. I continue to work on myself, one step at a time, I am now reading "The ways of the superior man" after having finished "His needs, her needs" and I last Saturday I beat my personal 10k best time at now 48 mins 50 secs.
More "she says". She says whatever is expedient to her at the time. She blames you. She tells you what you want to hear. She changes the rules of R. She tells you there is no chance to R. She says you guys need to talk and do things together. Then she refuses to talk and do things. DON'T YOU SEE?? Her words are MEANINGLESS. Stop attaching meaning to them.
"I know I had issues and I am working to erase them, but" Wow, that smacks of being dismissive. When you say "but" you undo everything you said before it. Do you really know you had issues? Are you really working to erase them? What are you doing? Because lots of LBS try to fix their issues just to get to R, and not permanently. This is why I say you work on 180s for YOU!! Not for her or the MR!! This is why IC is important. You need to cement your changes. Make them permanent, regardless of whether you R with her or not.
Human mind is wicked, all I can think of is those great moments we have lived together and her mind is focused on every discussion, every time she felt ignored or rejected... I admitted to her I probably have a pink view of our R but I know I wasnt happy either and I want something really different with her and she is the most valuable thing I had in my life. I am learning so much from my books, I started listening to women actively and I have identified a list of frustrations I had in my R with W and I will never allow to happen again (as in I will speak out next time I am in a R about this).
Classic LBS and WAS stuff here. After BD the LBS romanticizes how awesome the MR. The WAS can't see anything but the negative. I see you pointing out your improvements, which is fine here. But please never point them out to her! If you do you ruin any chance of her giving you credit for it. You just really change for the better and over time she will notice it. She will be leery of it at first and won't trust it. But if you are consistent then she will trust it. But if you point it out to her she will never ever trust it. And think you are just behaving that way to get her back.
Again apologies for my long post, I need somewhere to write about this. W has told me I have wasted opportunities to come closer to her but I honestly cannot think when!! She has used the stupid legal terms in our S agreement to judge me as a man and reinforce her belief that I have not changed and cannot assume my blame. She will only talk to me about the separation agreement, is like a $%#^# flashback to munich october last year when all she wanted from me was the agreement signed to come to Spain. For all other matters I get cold answers as if she wanted to avoid me. I am not forcing her to be with a bad man or to go back to the R we had, why wont she see that?
"W has told me" STOP IT. Her words are meaningless!!
"She has used the stupid legal terms in our S agreement to judge me as a man and reinforce her belief that I have not changed and cannot assume my blame. " She is trying to manipulate you into getting what she wants. Don't fall for it!
"She will only talk to me about the separation agreement, is like a $%#^# flashback to munich october last year when all she wanted from me was the agreement signed to come to Spain. For all other matters I get cold answers as if she wanted to avoid me. I am not forcing her to be with a bad man or to go back to the R we had, why wont she see that?"
Again, stop focusing on her! Focus on you. Make your changes real and permanent....FOR YOU. This right here proves to me that you are constantly looking over your shoulder to see if she is noticing. But for pete's sake just back off and leave her alone. Let her come to you. WASs are like cats, if you try to reach for them they will run away. But if you sit quietly and ignore them, eventually they will get curious and come to you on their terms. Stop reaching for her!!
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Life is freaking good, I have 2 amazing children with a woman who doesnt feel an inch of love for me. Talk about series in Netflix, life can be much more entertaining!
GROAN. I thought this was going to be about your GAL...then right back to her. Dude, if you are this focused on her all the time then you are smothering her. Pressuring and pursuing her right out of the door.
Can you please help me with this anxiety about the time it has been since she left home? What do I need to do? cut any talks with W? Thank you all for your time and help! please keep posting, I need the support from this board more than ever. Everyone talks to me about how the right woman will come in the future and I need to forget about W and get over my D.
Yes, stop initiating conversations! Learn what detachment is and looks like and start working on it. Up your GAL, but do not be down and depressed through it! Be upbeat, pleased and happy all the time! Work on those 180s for you, not her or anyone else! Get into IC if you are not. Learn how to see your faults through IC, and work on them. I do not think I would have changed if not for my IC!!!
hi all! Sandi thanks a lot for your words. Let me first ask for help on a new matter and then provide an update about how I am doing.
I don't give advice about financial issues, like how much alimony or child support, etc. I say to be fair, and that's all. No matter how much you increase the amount you pay her, it will not change her feelings about you. She has a heart issue! You saw how she would not accept that you've changed as a man. So, do what you see as financially fair, but don't do it to try and
win her.
Pack, are you really listening to what everyone is saying? What is the one piece of advice everyone has in common? STOP TALKING TO YOUR W! At this point, it's business. You and your W should not be discussing the divorce settlement with each other. Your lawyer and her lawyer..........not you and her. Your lawyer will not be influenced by your W's sharp tongue. On the other hand, your feelings are crushed when you try to have a conversation with her. You will not win her back through relationship talk. Stop thinking the next relationship talk will go better. It won't. She is out for blood, b/c she is filled with hate, anger, & spite.
To think outside of the box is to stop your old one-style thought patterns. Change your mindset. Stop thinking you will do something
to win her back. That was your original plan and your mindset was so strong it caused you to continually go down cheeseless tunnels. This type thinking has crippled you from really detaching, b/c you thought talking about the relationship with her was the way to work out the reconciliation. You thought you could verbally convince her you had changed. You couldn't. Stop repeating actions that are not successful. Your thinking has been so tightly boxed in this one way that I have not been able to break through and convince you to stop going down these cheeseless tunnels. Let me say it this way. Your actions seem to say that you don't believe the advice we give. IMHO, you saw only
one way of reconciling with your estranged W..........which was to improve yourself enough to impress her to give the M another chance. In order to show her "your 180's" you thought you had to talk with her. No matter how I tried to tell you to change this type of thinking about 180's, you continued. It seemed everything you did was from the viewpoint of "winning" her back. Maybe that makes sense to the nature of a LBH, but it doesn't last. No point in me continuing on this soapbox.
Both of you repeat unsuccessful actions. She calls you wanting to talk, and she says the same old stuff each time.
She appears to be on a mission to punish you badly, so my advice is to have no verbal contact with her. I told you to stop trying to save your marriage, b/c I thought maybe your mindset would change.....thus your actions would change. Then, you go back and have a three hour conversation where she tears you apart again.
I'm going to say this again. I think it will take you completely dropping the emotional rope you have around her and moving on with your life, before she'll change her mind......if ever. She has to believe she has lost you forever, and the only way I think it will happen is for you to really let go of the idea of reconciling. Otherwise, your emotions will allow you to get pulled into her verbal bashing sessions.......which sets everything back to square one again.
She has to believe she put you back on the market for single women. She had many chances, and she threw them away. Until a W feels the H is over and done with her.......her angry, selfish heart will not change for the better. She'll continue through life with bitterness burning in her soul. So, unfortunately, it will probably mean going through the divorce and her having years to experience life without you, before her heart softens......if it ever does. There are no guarantees.
((hugs))
hi Steve, Sandi,
Thanks a lot for your posts. I have re-read my last post and after your reply I can see how pathetic and anti-DB my attitude centered on WAW is. Believe it or not I can have some good days when I see your points and my mistakes crystal clear.
I do have big issues I want to fix for me. I have made exercise a big part of my life now, as it was when I was a teenager, I dont know why I stopped that, it keeps me in a good mood and boosts my confidence. I was also excessively focused on my career and making big money, now I am starting to enjoy calling my friends who live closely to go for a coffee or a beer and I had serious active listening issues I am trying to delete. This is only a little taste of the many things I want to change for me and it is really for me. I was not happy inside my M either, I am trying to analyze my faults were applicable to delete them, not for her, to make me a better person.
Not that I blame W but she has hurt me so badly with words that I give too much importance to every little thing she says, I need to get better there. I will work on getting better at being independent, detaching and GAL for myself.
@Steve, thanks a lot for your opinion and help, you have made me see my previous post in a very different way.
@Sandi, I never meant to ask for financial help, I wanted your objective opinion on whether she is manipulating me, I am sorry I did not made that clear. I genuinely expected a different course in those conversations, it seems all she cares about now is having her expenses covered. Again that is not a excuse to keep undergoing such conversations.
I have started an instagram account, my friends told me is a great way to socialize nowadays, let's see! So far I am posting about cars and fun moments with friends and I think that is all I want reflected there. I saw one of W's best friends yesterday and she pretended not to see me and looked around for all the time I walked pass. This has happened before, I always think I would say hello, I have nothing against you, but W must have told friends I made her very unhappy (more crazy WAW talk!).
I am picking up the kids today! I bought a plastic pool for the house in the Sierra and we can also go to the beach with my parents, not sure what they will prefer but for sure we are going to have a great time! S1 will be 2 next week, S6 wants to throw a party under the theme of Hotel Transylvania so I will go and get decorations, make Frankenstein punch and other things to have a great time!
Sometimes I think it would her so much if W was with OP that I force myself to avoid seeing our M as over, I cant seem to make that pain go away from my chest. I truly think if I could let go of that pain and fear, I would do much better.
Again thanks a lot to all of you, I know I am a bad DB but I will work on improving that, you deserve to see some good work on my side after all the time you have invested on my sitch.
((hugs))
Pack
hi all!
I went to bed yesterday thinking a lot about how centered I am and have been all the time on my W. Last time we talked she said something along the lines of "well you want me to see changes so listen to my hints". I cannot say or do anything right now in relation to her that will not harm me or my feelings.
I am really tired of listening to things like "I am very sure we had to separate and it was the only way to make you see the truth" or "if you had changed 3 months earlier we would not be here" or "you are unstable in your actions"..,
I dont know why I stay there to listen to it all and the worst of all I accept it as true to the point that it hurts me for days. If I make an attempt to go and tell her she is being disrespectful her reply is "well from now on we only talk about the kids and dont ever come into my house". Ok! She is also losing a wonderful man, it is not my job to make her see it and she wont allow her heart to change. Yesterday she told me the only reason we have not had a chance by now has been my behaviour, again because I picked a second L and I took advantage of covid to enforce shared custody.
I have been thinking also about what Steve told me, GAL with a mindset of letting my happy actions guide my feelings and not vice versa. I am going to read the detachment thread a lot and start implementing the steps there. I am going to find IC locally and really STOP all communications with W. It's been a year and I was always thinking our M was alive because of the strength of its vows but the truth is that it has been over a year since we have had a healthy conversation. It has been many years since I am a much lower priority in her life than our children and she did a huge mistake thinking the way to fix our M was to have a second child in a point when we were starting to be more engaged with each other. I also made many mistakes that I will erase from my personality.
I have told her many times the best for our children is to have a family where their parents love each other and even when I see this as a basic truth, I think she has seen this as emotional manipulation as trying to use the children to force her to be with me. She is always telling me all I have to do is understand her and change and that she will never go back to someone who can throw back at her any tiny part of her actions. I just want a fresh and opposite start, I think the happiness we would gain is worth leaving behind what has happened, maybe I am wrong and we are not meant for each other.
could I ask some advice on little SMART goals in terms of the R with W? Something as:
> Stop all R talks
> Leave first when we exchange kids
> Detach from her
> ?
Thank you all for your help!
I went to bed yesterday thinking a lot about how centered I am and have been all the time on my W. Last time we talked she said something along the lines of "well you want me to see changes so listen to my hints". I cannot say or do anything right now in relation to her that will not harm me or my feelings.
Well number one she's manipulating you and number 2 you need to get emotionally stronger.
I am really tired of listening to things like "I am very sure we had to separate and it was the only way to make you see the truth" or "if you had changed 3 months earlier we would not be here" or "you are unstable in your actions"..,
She's manipulating you and you do seem a little unstable
I dont know why I stay there to listen to it all and the worst of all I accept it as true to the point that it hurts me for days.
Dude, you need to get emotionally stronger
If I make an attempt to go and tell her she is being disrespectful her reply is "well from now on we only talk about the kids and dont ever come into my house".
You should only be talking about the kids anyways
Ok! She is also losing a wonderful man, it is not my job to make her see it and she wont allow her heart to change.
She doesn't see it that way. What makes you so wonderful Pack?
Yesterday she told me the only reason we have not had a chance by now has been my behaviour, again because I picked a second L and I took advantage of covid to enforce shared custody.
She's manipulating you
I have been thinking also about what Steve told me, GAL with a mindset of letting my happy actions guide my feelings and not vice versa. I am going to read the detachment thread a lot and start implementing the steps there.
Now your thinking correctly!
I am going to find IC locally and really STOP all communications with W.
Exactly!
It's been a year and I was always thinking our M was alive because of the strength of its vows but the truth is that it has been over a year since we have had a healthy conversation.
Ahh the old for better or for worse fairytale.......
I have told her many times the best for our children is to have a family where their parents love each other and even when I see this as a basic truth, I think she has seen this as emotional manipulation as trying to use the children to force her to be with me.
Well number 1 you are manipulating her and applying pressure and guilt which is DB 101
She is always telling me all I have to do is understand her and change and that she will never go back to someone who can throw back at her any tiny part of her actions. I just want a fresh and opposite start, I think the happiness we would gain is worth leaving behind what has happened, maybe I am wrong and we are not meant for each other.
Well it takes two to make a marriage work and she has one foot out the door
could I ask some advice on little SMART goals in terms of the R with W? Something as:
> Stop all R talks
> Leave first when we exchange kids
> Detach from her
> ?
I think you really need to forget about your W right now and set some goals on understanding and attracting women. Also, IMO you need to get emotionally stronger.
Your life apart from the W seems to be developing well. That's good!
Not that I blame W but she has hurt me so badly with words that I give too much importance to every little thing she says, I need to get better there.
Do you want to know when you will get better? When you stop giving her the opportunity to talk. Paco, you have to shut her out, in order for you to build your self esteem. She is the destroyer of your self esteem. Each time she has a go at you, you suffer emotionally. Therefore, don't have conversations with her, and don't give her the chance to rage against you.
I genuinely expected a different course in those conversations, it seems all she cares about now is having her expenses covered. Again that is not a excuse to keep undergoing such conversations.
But why would you expect it to be different? Are you still doing things you believe will please her? The woman has issues, and nobody can fix them, except her. By expecting the next contact from her to be different, you set yourself up for disappointment. Sometimes, a person can DB as much as possible and it doesn't stop a divorce, and it doesn't change the other spouse. DB is not a guarantee that a marriage won't end. The other spouse has free will.
I have started an instagram account, my friends told me is a great way to socialize nowadays, let's see! So far I am posting about cars and fun moments with friends and I think that is all I want reflected there.
Good!
I saw one of W's best friends yesterday and she pretended not to see me and looked around for all the time I walked pass. This has happened before, I always think I would say hello, I have nothing against you, but W must have told friends I made her very unhappy (more crazy WAW talk!).
You can't trust her friends.
Sometimes I think it would her so much if W was with OP that I force myself to avoid seeing our M as over, I cant seem to make that pain go away from my chest. I truly think if I could let go of that pain and fear, I would do much better.
She has made references to how she is free to date others, so she may have her eyes on another man. If so, I pity him, b/c she has so much anger she'll carry it forward in another relationship. I really think she says those things to hurt you deeper.
Your M has been over for a long time. (((hugs))) You are hanging on to a corpse. Let go, so you can start to heal.
I know I am a bad DB but I will work on improving that, you deserve to see some good work on my side after all the time you have invested on my sitch.
We just want to see you happy. You don't have to DB for us. This is your life. It would be a giant step, if you can work on letting go of the M. Forget about trying to act a particular way with her. That only trips you up. Just work on dropping the rope, and stop having talks with her.
hi LH!
Thanks a lot for your comments. Could you elaborate a bit more on getting emotionally stronger? Is this linked to self confidence and self esteem or is it something different?
I have set goals for me on all physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual levels but in the back of my head I always had the hope for R. Starting today I will do my best to implement these:
> Prepare for the worst, accept my M is over and talk to other women
> Work on detachment
> Stop talking to W unless it is about the kids
> Start to GAL for real with no expectations
I dont think I am wonderful. I am a caring person, I try to stay fit and healthy, I love my children and I think I am a good father, I am fun to be with, I can keep a good conversation and I have a great job where I feel appreciated, I am not superman but she is treating me like a rock who does not deserve a word from her. W can justify all her behavior by saying well I dont love you so what were you expecting and meanwhile I am deeply stuck in that fairytale of for better or worse... I am so pathetic!
Thanks a lot for your comments. Could you elaborate a bit more on getting emotionally stronger? Is this linked to self confidence and self esteem or is it something different?
Yes they are definitely linked together. You can't let her words phase you. You have to get to a place where you don't care what the fuch she says or thinks about you. There are over 3 billion other women in this world.
I have set goals for me on all physical, emotional, spiritual and intellectual levels but in the back of my head I always had the hope for R. Starting today I will do my best to implement these:
> Prepare for the worst, accept my M is over and talk to other women
> Work on detachment
> Stop talking to W unless it is about the kids
> Start to GAL for real with no expectations
This is all good!
I dont think I am wonderful. I am a caring person, I try to stay fit and healthy, I love my children and I think I am a good father, I am fun to be with, I can keep a good conversation and I have a great job where I feel appreciated, I am not superman but she is treating me like a rock who does not deserve a word from her. W can justify all her behavior by saying well I dont love you so what were you expecting and meanwhile I am deeply stuck in that fairytale of for better or worse... I am so pathetic!
You're not pathetic. Your a good man who loves his family and wants to keep it together. Unfortunately there is so much more involved with attraction and listening skills etc. You have to let her go to get her back.
I agree, you are not pathetic. Don't call yourself negative words, or think you are failure when you make mistakes.
hi all!
Sandi, LH thanks a lot for been so direct and helpful with me. I have been feeling quite pathetic lately. I do know how to be attractive to women, I have never had a problem there, is more that feeling of repairing our R asap. I have come to the conclusion that I have to work on my patience and the LRT activities for me, being independent again.
I had an amazing weekend with the kids at the beach. The sea was moody and we could enjoy some waves with very good water temperature. I also helped S6 to gain more confidence when swimming in the pool. Yesterday we went shopping for the BD party of S1 (soon to be S2), I am planning a party themed on Hotel Transylvania movies and I got face make up to get us all looking like Frankenstein, we also got decorations and ingredients to make some spooky recipes!
I have not been very productive lately, being with the kids means I do more things at home and with them. This brings a negative feeling that can sometimes pile up with the feelings about the loss of my M and it is not helping me. On the good side, a lot of the people I come across make positive comments on my physical appearance, I know that is only a minor part of the changes I need to implement but it feels incredibly good to get some positive recognition from outside.
I have been reading a lot about detachment, working on a mindset where I can see current R with W objectively and I can assess all the things that are unhealthy about our interactions. After our 2 or 3 conversations about financial issues and the S agreement there has been silence and ignorance, she is back to where she has consistently been. I know I cannot put weight on what she says right now but there are two things that have been in my mind lately.
W said if it wasn't for my behavior through my L we would have had a chance of R by now, but I blew it. In the sense of me showing her I want to screhw her life, I dont understand why she seems to determined on making me a messed up person. I dont want to see whta she said as a positive sign, truth is there are no positive signs, period. W mentioned she has told friends if she had to choose between someone who can be a 100 for her and if I was able to give her 50 she would choose me because of the kids. I guess this is in line with me being the best plan B or her trying to tell herself she is an amazing mom no matter what happens between us and in our family. I dont know where these come from but they really hurt my self esteem, I will try to let all those conversations go off my mind. As you can see, I am struggling with sticking myself to the rule of "believe nothing they say and 50% of what they do" and how it conflicts with becoming a better listener and really paying attention to what S expresses, am I making sense? Maybe someone here has brought this up before.
I had a young woman approach me at the pool when I was with S1 and ask me about him, she was very attractive. I could feel I was closed to any conversation with her beyond sharing info about S1. I will work on that.
I have been struggling with physical needs lately, I still feel attracted to W when I have seen her. When I get these impulses I use them as energy to fuel my exercise routines. W spent the weekend with her support person number 1 (her cousin who recently called up on her wedding). Not that I care, just want to share here that their little support circle is up and running as always. Not sure if W compares me to her cousin's ex, I know that would not be fair but there is nothing I can do about it.
I have decided to go back to church, I have let myself go from my believes, but I feel like I need to reconnect with that side of me. I had a call with my financial advisor in Germany, he told me people have been inquiring a lot about houses around the area where we bought, apparently they keep selling for really good prices. That gives me some peace, despite the feeling of demolishing the life I was trying to build for my family.
I am very lucky to have the R I do with my S6. If it wasn't for him I would probably still be on a darker place in my life. I keep reading my books, making lists of things I need to improve in myself and the relationships in my life and trying to take steps on this direction. I have been having many thoughts about the better and improved R I want with W. I have always thought picturing me having those moments, conversations and gestures with her would give me strength to go on and to fight for us. Maybe those thoughts are only hurting me because they lead to me thinking about having dates and conversations with W, something it is not going to soon and may never happen.
I know is my decision and my choice to fight for my family and marriage, but I have been doing a terrible job. Next august it will be the anniversary from DB. I want to keep fighting, I think there is still hope and strength in me to do it. I really wish there was a way I could make her at least respect me again. how have other success stories maintained the eyes on the final goal when spouse had one foot out the door and things seemed hopeless?
Thanks for your comments and I will keep posting!
I have been thinking my last post really gives the impression I dont listen. I understand I need to stop trying to save my M and move the focus towards me and my changes. What I meant to ask is when you want to stay strong in the hope for the best and at the same time need to lovingly detach and let WAW go. I have my list of GAL activities and I try to stick to them but I mean in terms of how to view your past R, think about the one you would ideally like to develop and how to healthy cut the interactions and stop being a plan B for WAW.
Would it be more helpful if I row in the opposite direction? Should I put extra emphasis on meeting women as many friends have recommended?
On occasions like tomorrow (S1 BD party) should I share some video/pics with W or not?
Thank you all for your help! I am listening, I fear I am still emotionally a big mess at the moment but I will pick myself up.
You basically need to withdraw support -- emotional support (no pictures or videos) and financial support to the degree possible. If she makes a mess, *she* needs to clean it up. You do not step in and enable her in any way.
If she gets mad at you, you shrug it off, you don't engage.
If she cries in front of you, you let her cry and you make NO effort to comfort her.
You go out and "get a life" and you don't feel *any* responsibility to explain or justify what you're doing, you just do it.
Very important: You are *not* mean, punishing, or passive aggressive. You don't make nasty comments. You don't go out of your way to inconvenience her, you simply act as if you are completely uninterested and unaffected by her.
When she senses that she's losing control over you, she *will* fight back. She will try to manipulate you to stay invested in her. The more you resist, the harder she will try. She'll scream and yell, she'll accuse, she'll break down and cry, she'll blame. The minute you engage, you lose. This will be uncomfortable, it will feel *worse* than giving in to her and engaging. That's what making things worse means.
You being emotionally invested in her is an insurance policy and nothing else. If things go horribly wrong with her affair partners and outside interests, she can always come back to her comfortable marriage.
It’s a huge comfort to know that she has you to fall back on if things go badly for her. You need to pull that safety net away entirely.
She needs to *fully believe* that you will not be there for her if she chooses to return, and that if she wants to come back she's going to have to work for it.
You can't tell her that, she'll never believe it. You have to show her that beyond a doubt with your actions.
Ever run into a crazy person on the sidewalk who points at you and yells at you? You do what you can to minimize the interaction but after that you move on. It doesn't ruin your day, it certainly doesn't hurt your self-esteem or make you feel worse about who you are.
You need to regard her with exactly the same level of detachment and disinterest. Whatever she does, your toes are still tapping.
At the same time, you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) *and* build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
Pack, I'm very sorry you're here. Everything she told you about your faults was nonsense to justify her leaving. When you then respond to her complaints you validate them, so she feels even more entitled to leave.
You've been trying to "nice your way back" for months.
It's not working, it will never work.
You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.
You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.
She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.
Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
You need to make things *worse* before they can get better.
Are you willing to do that?
Good message by LH. I’ll second “no” on sending pics/videos. That is actually fine and common between co-parents, but you are struggling to detach, so extra unnecessary communication would be best avoided.
You've been trying to "nice your way back" for months.
It's not working, it will never work.
You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.
You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.
She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, *nothing* you do will impact it.
Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
You need to make things *worse* before they can get better.
Are you willing to do that?
It has always been that sense of guilt and responsibility for our problems that has lead me to believe the one path to R was to change myself and show her the love I did not show at home because of all my problems. As Sandi always tells me, it is the wrong timing, if there is ever to be a good one it is not now.
I am sooo tired of my useless behavior and my mistakes. I have my first IC session in Spain next Monday. Let's see how that turns out. I am so tired of feeling trapped in this situation, of taking guesses on whether she is with OP or going throw a miserable time, if she ever thinks about me. I have all these activities in mind to make my GAL amazing but I am paralyzed by the financial debt we have with the new house in Germany and my responsibilities as a father (I feel if I go out and put more time on me it is at the expense of time with C)
I am more than willing to do the *worse*, I need it like fresh air because I am suffocating in my own same old patterns.
I have now my certification and things are going good at work, I am more in shape than ever, where do I go next? social activities? church? going out with friends?
Thanks for your help LH. I am no safety net for anyone, I might have my issues and character to tame but I deserve a person who is willing to fight for me.
GALing like a teenager!
It has always been that sense of guilt and responsibility for our problems that has lead me to believe the one path to R was to change myself and show her the love I did not show at home because of all my problems.
That's just your brain trying to get you to pursue. It's a defense mechanism.
I am so tired of feeling trapped in this situation, of taking guesses on whether she is with OP or going throw a miserable time, if she ever thinks about me.
Total waste of time and energy.
I have all these activities in mind to make my GAL amazing but I am paralyzed by the financial debt we have with the new house in Germany and my responsibilities as a father (I feel if I go out and put more time on me it is at the expense of time with C)
Think of the analogy with the oxygen mask on the airplane. You need to save yourself in order to save your children.
I have now my certification and things are going good at work, I am more in shape than ever, where do I go next? social activities? church? going out with friends?
Social activities and hanging out with friends is attractive.
Exactly!
thanks LH, I am going to throw my S2 an amazing birthday party now and I will come back to the board!
hi all!
I hope summer is going as good as the covid situation allows!
It has been the first weekend of rowing against my instincts to show love and change to W. In terms of GAL, great fun at the beach with the kids. I got S6 to ride waves on a body board, was swimming with him, we saw a couple of small fish banks...
Saturday I smashed my 5Km and 1 mile personal records and I would have done the same with the 10km but I run out of town by 9.5 km and I was a bit lazy to go the extra half km hahaha. I was out having fun Saturday after Iput the kids to sleep and left them with my parents and I made some progress with the project I have coming up in August.
I have two massive demons fighting in my head. On the one side there is a train of thoughts that pushes me to stay calm, do my thing, hope for the best and be patient and let her be. On the other side I have all these thoughts about how unhealthy it is that I have been holding on to a dead M for a year almost, that W does not love me, does not care about me and how that should fuel me to move on and seek time with the people that are willing to receive my love. I am very tired of reading books about relationships, differences between men and women, habits and traits of healthy and lasting Ms and improved sexual practices to think about applying it with W and then crashing against the reality I live every day.
I am going to my first IC session today. It will only be to meet the people there and understand how it would work. I plan to cover there my problems and also why I cannot let go of my M and W and hopefully get help to detach and think about current R with W in a healthier way.
I know I cannot be centered on W and you guys are helping me a lot but I have been feeling very down lately due to her last interactions with me. As you know, after we signed the agreement and I went to her place to talk things through a couple of times the only things she has told me are that she "will not be with me right now" and that she has already said all she had to. I am sorry for bringing her up again but I am so frustrated with how closed she still is. It has been a year and it feels like the first day when she left, blamed me for everything and said she was done and had fought enough for us so she moved on to make a new live where I was not allowed to be in at all. I read other threads in the board and some people are talking to WAS way earlier than this, even if it is to politely ask if there are plans to take a summer trip with the kids.
I cannot understand when W says she is having an awful time, she cannot sleep well and she never wanted this but I pushed her to it but then when the opportunity arises to do something to have fun and move on from the S and the mistakes we both have made her answer is simply "I dont want to be with you, I am not happy, but neither was with you". I guess I am hurting more than a sensible person would because as stuck as I was in the mindset to win her back I always thought by summer this year we would have at least had a conversation about how we can move on pass the S. I need to work on my expectations, I need to kill them basically.
I have the feeling W is sheltered in her family at the moment. Yesterday when she called S6 she was with her brother and SIL at home and I bet she has no time to think about our family or myself, too bad, I am ready to give her a new R in both emotional and physical sense. There is something I wanted to ask here. As you know W told me I was to blame that we have not had a chance to talk by now because I went behind her back finding a second L and I was unfair financially. She said for her my value as a man was also shown via the conditions I wanted to reflect on our S agreement. My L agreed with W in the sense that withdrawing as much financial support as possible also shows what kind of person I am and my values. Are they right? I know I cannot nice my way back to M but this is so wicked. When I was nice and tried to show love and distance, I had been a monster, destroyed my M for 5 years and never cared about my vows. When I tried to be strong and enforce boundaries I was a monster for trying to remove financial support and hiring a L behind her. I feel like screaming at my pillow.
It does feel really bad to go against my poor instincts, I feel the distance between us is growing and eventually with time I will forget about our life together or at least I will not miss it as I do now, but I am a person of value and I deserve healthy relationships in my life.
Thank you all for your help and please keep posting!
all the best! Pack
It has been the first weekend of rowing against my instincts to show love and change to W. In terms of GAL, great fun at the beach with the kids. I got S6 to ride waves on a body board, was swimming with him, we saw a couple of small fish banks... [/quote]
That sounds awesome!
Saturday I smashed my 5Km and 1 mile personal records and I would have done the same with the 10km but I run out of town by 9.5 km and I was a bit lazy to go the extra half km hahaha. I was out having fun Saturday after Iput the kids to sleep and left them with my parents and I made some progress with the project I have coming up in August.
Great stuff! Keep it up.
I am very tired of reading books about relationships, differences between men and women, habits and traits of healthy and lasting Ms and improved sexual practices to think about applying it with W and then crashing against the reality I live every day.
Those books should be for your next relationship whether it's with your W or someone else.
I am going to my first IC session today. It will only be to meet the people there and understand how it would work. I plan to cover there my problems and also why I cannot let go of my M and W and hopefully get help to detach and think about current R with W in a healthier way.
I think this is a great idea for you!
As you know, after we signed the agreement and I went to her place to talk things through a couple of times the only things she has told me are that she "will not be with me right now" and that she has already said all she had to.
You like getting kicked in the balls don't you Pack?
I am sorry for bringing her up again but I am so frustrated with how closed she still is.
ahhhhh those expectations. She says X and I fix X then she will X. It NEVER works that way.
It has been a year and it feels like the first day when she left, blamed me for everything and said she was done and had fought enough for us so she moved on to make a new live where I was not allowed to be in at all.
Of course your the blame for everything.
I read other threads in the board and some people are talking to WAS way earlier than this, even if it is to politely ask if there are plans to take a summer trip with the kids.
My guess is that is because you continue to apply pressure with relationship talks.
I cannot understand when W says she is having an awful time, she cannot sleep well and she never wanted this but I pushed her to it but then when the opportunity arises to do something to have fun and move on from the S and the mistakes we both have made her answer is simply "I dont want to be with you, I am not happy, but neither was with you".
Pack no one goes into a marriage wanting a D. So your thought process is that since she's miserable then she mind as well be miserable with you?????
I guess I am hurting more than a sensible person would because as stuck as I was in the mindset to win her back I always thought by summer this year we would have at least had a conversation about how we can move on pass the S. I need to work on my expectations, I need to kill them basically.
You should have zero expectations about anything from her.
I have the feeling W is sheltered in her family at the moment.
Mindreading. Complete waste of time.
Yesterday when she called S6 she was with her brother and SIL at home and I bet she has no time to think about our family or myself, too bad, I am ready to give her a new R in both emotional and physical sense.
Mindreading. Complete waste of time.
There is something I wanted to ask here. As you know W told me I was to blame that we have not had a chance to talk by now because I went behind her back finding a second L and I was unfair financially. She said for her my value as a man was also shown via the conditions I wanted to reflect on our S agreement. My L agreed with W in the sense that withdrawing as much financial support as possible also shows what kind of person I am and my values. Are they right?
If you are being fair with the support then no. If you are not then yes. Is she having an affair?
I know I cannot nice my way back to M but this is so wicked. When I was nice and tried to show love and distance, I had been a monster, destroyed my M for 5 years and never cared about my vows. When I tried to be strong and enforce boundaries I was a monster for trying to remove financial support and hiring a L behind her. I feel like screaming at my pillow.
There is nothing you can do right now to get her back. NOTHING!
It does feel really bad to go against my poor instincts, I feel the distance between us is growing and eventually with time I will forget about our life together or at least I will not miss it as I do now, but I am a person of value and I deserve healthy relationships in my life.
This is exactly what you want Pack. You have a hard time understanding that she doesn't want to be with you right now and probably won't for a very long time. If you don't tighten up your game this may end up being a permanent thing for you.
You like getting kicked in the balls don't you Pack?
Apparently I do, to levels I could never imagine. Can I attach value to the fact that W said we are now separated but that does not mean this has to end like this? I am a sad plan B person?
My guess is that is because you continue to apply pressure with relationship talks.
No I genuinely mean it. I read other threads where spouses are talking about going for a trip, some still live together even after the S. The other day it was the first time I heard W say I am not 100% to blame, not sure if it means some internal changes are beginning, I dont want to get any hopes high. I have cut talks, as I said LH, I want to row against the current position my mind has been stuck on.
Pack no one goes into a marriage wanting a D. So your thought process is that since she's miserable then she mind as well be miserable with you?????
No way! I genuinely want her to be happy. I just see so many things we have done wrong and she always says for her ideal happiness is a loving family. We have been parents above all, the intimacy or sex were never a priority, I think for her as well. We had stress and a very hard social life in Germany. I genuinely think there were many problems, hence there is plenty of room for improvement. I know I cannot make her see this, just my personal view on our M. It makes me sad I could "cause" this mess and I cannot undo a bit of it.
Mindreading. Complete waste of time.
Thanks a lot! I know it is!
If you are being fair with the support then no. If you are not then yes. Is she having an affair?
I thought it was fair and I asked my L for it. The thing is that she has moved to the best neighborhood in the city and she would be forced to move. Guess what, we were arguing about this and she cried telling me my L is a b@tch who has no idea what her expenses are. I am quite sure she is not having a A, I have not snooped, it does no good to me and I have always thought if she was to put an end to our M in such a disrespectful way, it would be the best trigger for me to move on.
This is exactly what you want Pack. You have a hard time understanding that she doesn't want to be with you right now and probably won't for a very long time. If you don't tighten up your game this may end up being a permanent thing for you.
It is devastating to know the person who promised to always support and be with you thinks this way. She must have felt the same when I was in my darkest time at home and I could not see what matters in life. I feel like I touched bottom as a man, I need to improve on so many areas.
I got a letter today about the next payment for the mortgage and the bank has requested an assessment of our current financial situation. I have emailed my advisor in Germany to see how I can handle this. Once the purchase I was most proud of in my life and it tastes disgusting right now, as if it was a mistake and I got my feet in too much financial problem for my age. The home I wanted to settle in with my family for the next 5-8 years is now a nightmare I want to run away from. WTF am I doing living in Spain and buying a fancy home in Germany?
These things just ruin my day, I got like 3 letters about our bank, home, the mortgage and the payments we need to make. I am having a big pity party, not good not at all.
I dont want to have more talks with W. They are useless and make me feel like I have so many problems she is justified in leaving. Will there ever be a time when it is appropiate to test the waters and ask her out? should I better give up on that idea?
I have determined that I will post more often here. I am not detached and I need to write more here and never ever again to W. Thank you all for your comments and help!
Pack
hi all!
Just a couple of reflections I need to speak out and I feel here is the place.
This morning I was reading bits of my last interactions with W via whatsapp. Aside from noticing how pathetic I have been lately I noticed the last time there was a positive interaction was May 17. That was the famous day she said I only have to love her and there is no need to compensate the pain and she let me approach her. I have been holding onto that conversation like a life saving vest in the middle of the ocean. It has been a long time and after covid lockdown our relationship has worsened. She is fully NC unless about the kids, what you all have recommended time and time so I guess I need to finally drop that conversation as something strange that happened but means nothing and move on.
Yesterday night W video called S6 from a bar, she is always out as you can imagine when not with the kids, she asked him many times if S6 missed her. S6 replied consistently that he does not so much and that he has a better time with me. I dont see this as a fight for their love, it just made me incredibly proud and gave me a bit of positive reinforcement that I am indeed changing (I was very nervous at home and time to time I would tell him off in very impatient or aggressive manners) for the better. So she went on to ask him many times if he was joking or meant it. S6 kept replying he wants to be with me and W ended up saying he just made her really sad over and over. I was hearing while cooking and I felt like shouting quit manipulating S6 as well please. Am I being unreasonable?
The worst about this is that I am sure she thinks I put ideas in S6 heads that he is better with me, that is what hurts the most. Because you know I am the enemy. I know I show here a lot of attachment to W and focus on her but when I do gain clarity I am focused on 3 things. My personal growth, being the best father I can be and my goals in the PIES. We have fun playing lego, spyro on the ps4, swimming, playing at the beach, with the bike... not that I need to explain or justify it to you, just my personal reflections.
Why am I jealous of the many times she is out at the bars? I had a chat with a good friend yesterday, he told em if I want a chance at either getting W back or overcoming she moving on from me I need to get emotionally stronger. Sports, my job and time with friends.
I have been thinking about the message I got from the way of the superior man. We must have a goal and purpose above our R. What is mine? My dream was to work in Formula 1, that is not feasible now given the situation with the kids, what defines me then? Is being a great father enough to make you the man you want to be? not sure it is. I have a lot of thinking to do from Pack's shoes. I hope my IC helps me with that. I have been feeling like I lost the best thing I had in my life, maybe not a healthy thought.
I want to change some furniture. Specially the main room, it is just too much. We bought all when she moved in with me to the UK, it is cheap Ikea stuff and it just makes me think. I dont want to be in a house that makes me think about W. I will change the entire master bedroom, some bits in the living room and then go full saving mode for the car I want to buy. I have started to plan activities for this weekend as it will be the first one without C for the month of August.
Hope everyone is doing great. Time passes, no news from WAW, as normal. I need to become the man I want to be and build an amazing life.
That was the famous day she said I only have to love her and there is no need to compensate the pain and she let me approach her.
Well how gracious of your royal heinous to let you approach her. (insert LH eye roll)
I have been holding onto that conversation like a life saving vest in the middle of the ocean.
As long as you hold on this tight do NOT expect anything to change and will likely worsen
It has been a long time and after covid lockdown our relationship has worsened.
See my comment above
She is fully NC unless about the kids, what you all have recommended time and time so I guess I need to finally drop that conversation as something strange that happened but means nothing and move on.
Exactly!
Yesterday night W video called S6 from a bar, she is always out as you can imagine when not with the kids.
As should you when you don't have the kids.
S6 kept replying he wants to be with me and W ended up saying he just made her really sad over and over.
Wow! She's trying to make a six year old feel bad about himself.
I was hearing while cooking and I felt like shouting quit manipulating S6 as well please. Am I being unreasonable?
No!
The worst about this is that I am sure she thinks I put ideas in S6 heads that he is better with me, that is what hurts the most.
Uuum how it's making your son feel should hurt the most. Plus you are mindreading which is a waste of time and energy.
Because you know I am the enemy. I know I show here a lot of attachment to W and focus on her but when I do gain clarity I am focused on 3 things. My personal growth, being the best father I can be and my goals in the PIES.
These are great goals!
Why am I jealous of the many times she is out at the bars?
Because you are needy and insecure and that's what most likely got you here in the first place.
I had a chat with a good friend yesterday, he told em if I want a chance at either getting W back or overcoming she moving on from me I need to get emotionally stronger.
He is a VERY wise man! You do need to get emotionally stronger.
I have been thinking about the message I got from the way of the superior man. We must have a goal and purpose above our R. What is mine? My dream was to work in Formula 1, that is not feasible now given the situation with the kids, what defines me then?
Stop making excuses. If that is your dream then make it happen.
Is being a great father enough to make you the man you want to be? not sure it is.
So you are only thinking about becoming a great father if it gets your wife back WTF????
I have been feeling like I lost the best thing I had in my life, maybe not a healthy thought.
Uuum no. You have your children, health, family, friends, a job and that's just off the top of my head.
Pack I get the feeling you are obsessed with your W and reading your posts make me uncomfortable. If I can feel it then I am 100% sure your W feels it and it makes her feel unsafe. Until you change your mindset I don't see anything changing.
I have read with interest about the thoughts on the man/woman we married is still in there and the love for him/her is well sheltered. I think this same thought has hurt me a lot in the sense of creating false expectations and the way I have approached my WAW. It seems to be an honorable feeling but yet it contradicts the lessons Sandi has tried to push in my head that she is a different person and my past W is "dead". what are your thoughts on this?
Hi Pack, thanks for dropping by my thread. I thought it’d be best to respond to you here. I think for someone like you who is having a hard time with detaching, to view your past W as “dead” is necessary for you to accept that she currently is not the girl you married. That’s why everyone recommended NC to you, because the more you interact with her, the more you try to pick up clues on whether the old her is still there....and usually you would end up hurting because you then realize she is not who she used to be. I have love for my old H. I do not love the man he is now. At the same time I am also still trying to wrap my head around our history together and figure out if I really saw him for who he was. I think the important thing is that you can love someone, but you need to love yourself first. You can still have love for your wife, but you should not allow someone to treat yourself poorly out of love. For me that love is a distant memory, I’d like to keep it for now to help me proceed with kindness. But I will not that be a hindrance for me to move forward with my life.
Well how gracious of your royal heinous to let you approach her. (insert LH eye roll)
This made me laugh, thanks LH. Yes I was such an idiot, during covid I thought well I am calmed and gave her lots of space and she is the one to stop to chat when we exchange the kids. (loud ringer sound!) I made many mistakes, need to accept M is over and not approach W. Working on that!
As should you when you don't have the kids.
consider it done!
Wow! She's trying to make a six year old feel bad about himself.
I was hearing while cooking and I felt like shouting quit manipulating S6 as well please. Am I being unreasonable?
No!
Thank you! I was literally standing next to S6 ready to intervene when I thought it wasn't worth it and went back into the kitchen to keep making dinner. Now the next question, when I see this happen, is it fine to speak to my son about it and reassure he loves us both but we do have amazing fun together and I understand him wanting to spend more time with me?
Because you know I am the enemy. I know I show here a lot of attachment to W and focus on her but when I do gain clarity I am focused on 3 things. My personal growth, being the best father I can be and my goals in the PIES.
These are great goals!
I revise them every day, it is my new compass. I am going to be the man I want to be and build an amazing live, for me, for my happiness!
Because you are needy and insecure and that's what most likely got you here in the first place.
I was never like this, just the opposite. I need to find myself again.
Stop making excuses. If that is your dream then make it happen.
I am going to focus on my dreams and making them happen. That is one good exercise for this new life I want to live. Think abaut the steps that will take me there, write them down.
So you are only thinking about becoming a great father if it gets your wife back WTF????
No no! The only one place in my current status where W has no space is my relationship with the kids, that is above all this hell I am going through.
Pack I get the feeling you are obsessed with your W and reading your posts make me uncomfortable. If I can feel it then I am 100% sure your W feels it and it makes her feel unsafe. Until you change your mindset I don't see anything changing.
I hear you LH. Thanks a lot for the comment. Can you please extend on this? I know I do post a lot about "W has said", "W has done", "I am hurting b/c...", it is because I want to let steam off. Hearing an external, objective person like you saying this really troubles me, in the sense that I think, I must be so stuck on this that people are even giving up on me. I will make an effort to post more on my changes and work on myself rather on W interactions. In fact, I will minimize the interactions with W and post more about my changes.
I need to regain my self esteem, emotional stability, independence and happiness. Aside from W.
Thanks for your post. I will tell you the same I say to Sandi all day long. Please keep helping me, I am listening.
I have read with interest about the thoughts on the man/woman we married is still in there and the love for him/her is well sheltered. I think this same thought has hurt me a lot in the sense of creating false expectations and the way I have approached my WAW. It seems to be an honorable feeling but yet it contradicts the lessons Sandi has tried to push in my head that she is a different person and my past W is "dead". what are your thoughts on this?
Hi Pack, thanks for dropping by my thread. I thought it’d be best to respond to you here. I think for someone like you who is having a hard time with detaching, to view your past W as “dead” is necessary for you to accept that she currently is not the girl you married. That’s why everyone recommended NC to you, because the more you interact with her, the more you try to pick up clues on whether the old her is still there....and usually you would end up hurting because you then realize she is not who she used to be. I have love for my old H. I do not love the man he is now. At the same time I am also still trying to wrap my head around our history together and figure out if I really saw him for who he was. I think the important thing is that you can love someone, but you need to love yourself first. You can still have love for your wife, but you should not allow someone to treat yourself poorly out of love. For me that love is a distant memory, I’d like to keep it for now to help me proceed with kindness. But I will not that be a hindrance for me to move forward with my life.
Hi wooba, thanks for the reply. I am struggling a lot to see her in that way, I am not sure why. She has done and said so many things to prove me she is moved on that it feels like I took the choice to stay there as some sort of way to remain loyal to my M. Maybe the way to do so is being back who I was and being happy again.
I do not love the woman she is now either. I wonder if she will ever consider fighting for me again, that is a healthier way to hope for the best and not being stuck where I stand now. My C has told me we need to focus on me first and set W apart, which I know I need, but I plan to also cover our history to see if there are things I could not see about her before.
Thank you wooba,
((hugs))
I hear you LH. Thanks a lot for the comment. Can you please extend on this? I know I do post a lot about "W has said", "W has done", "I am hurting b/c...", it is because I want to let steam off. Hearing an external, objective person like you saying this really troubles me, in the sense that I think, I must be so stuck on this that people are even giving up on me. I will make an effort to post more on my changes and work on myself rather on W interactions. In fact, I will minimize the interactions with W and post more about my changes.
You know exactly what you have to do because you have written below. For whatever reason you are having a tough time implementing it and letting go. Do you have abandonment issues?
I need to regain my self esteem, emotional stability, independence and happiness. Aside from W.
I just scanned through your posts going back to December. It sounds like your W is done and is going to be done for awhile. Things are going to have to get worse before they get better.
Hi again LH!
I was just doing the same, scanning through some of my early posts. Incredible how Sandi was telling me the thing to do since minute 1 and I was blocked to received the message, I think I am still blocked. Lately I have been feeling I know what I have to do, I have the support (this board and IC) to do it and all I have to do is get my hands dirty with the task.
I am going to have to make things worse before they change, I will continue to read on detachment and will focus on my personal goals.
I have never been left behind before, I guess receiving this from the person that promised to be my companion and support for the rest of her life hit me so hard it has done some deep damage in my brain and the way I think about myself. Let's see how the IC develops around this topic. I cant wait for the first session next monday.
The worst about knowing she is done is when she says "if you had changed 3 months earlier we wold not be here". It makes me feel like a big failure after the many times she told me we had issues and I did not seek help.
There is one last point I want to ask about. Last time I spoke to W at her place she said calmly that she left Germany and moved back because if I was to rebuild my life with a German woman she would be trapped in a country where she does not speak the language. I told her at no point I gave her signs of that but the opposite and she said I was so nervous and unstable that she could not trust it and needed to protect herself. Anyways, this always comes because I tell her we have never lived apart and went from at home as a family to "I want a D and a new life without you" to what she answers that she told me Feb 2019 that we were over. I never heard it that way but I cannot argue with her.
What are your views on what she is saying? does it make sense? Again, not that I am focusing on her, these are conversations I want to share here to see what your thoughts are if possible.
I also noticed she has removed all pictures from S6 and S2 from her living room, she has now all frames without pictures. That shocked me, just something to share!
Thanks for your help!
The worst about knowing she is done is when she says "if you had changed 3 months earlier we wold not be here". It makes me feel like a big failure after the many times she told me we had issues and I did not seek help.
It's all BS! People can only be angry at themselves for so long, and then they need to stop. What tends to happen at that point is that they look to displace blame. If someone stole money from you, initially they might be mad at themselves for doing it, but eventually they'll usually convince themselves that it was someone else's fault that they were in that position. Its just human nature.
As a WAS, they will often displace blame on the LBS because they need to give themselves some relief, so eventually they are angry at you for what you did, and then they are angry at you again for what they did.
If they are in that state of mind, can you see why pursuing them or having relationship talks is just totally hopeless?
Can you see why if you address their past complaints now it just makes her angrier at you?
The three biggest things she's dealing with right now are fear and uncertainty about the future, guilt for what she's doing to you and your children, and anger and resentment over your role in pushing her to this point.
Everything you do right now is going to make her either more resentful, or less resentful.
If you increase her guilt, by blaming, shaming, or making her responsible for your emotional state, she's going to resent you more.
If you pursue her, argue with her, or try to convince her to work with you on the marriage, she's going to resent you for not letting her go and not giving her the space she wants.
If you immediately address all her historic complaints, she's going to resent the fact that you didn't do it sooner, and things had to get this bad for you to take action.
If you give her space, it’s going to make her less resentful.
If you live your own life, and are happy and joyful for your own sake, it’s going to make her less resentful.
If you are respectful in your communications with her, but not intimate, it’s going to make her less resentful.
*Eventually* she will burn through that big pile of resentment.
*Eventually* she will process her anger at you and it will dissipate.
UNTIL she goes through both of those processes, she will not see you as anything other than she believes you to be based on her prior training.
If she thinks you wear blue every day, and you start wearing red, she's still going to think of you as the guy that wears blue, because she literally can't see you right now.
WHILE she is processing her anger and resentment, YOU work on your changes. You do it slowly and methodically *for you*.
If you're a 2 today, you don't focus on being a 10, you focus on being a 3. Then you focus on being a 4. You be kind to yourself.
While her anger and resentment are burning down, your changes are building up.
When eventually she's had enough time and space that she can SEE YOU again, she'll be surprised by what she sees, and she'll question for the first time the assumptions she has held about you.
THAT is the beginning of your opportunity to turn things around, but you CANNOT control how long it will take her to process her anger and resentment, and you CANNOT accelerate it.
Buckle your seatbelt, it’s a marathon and you have to be patient and surrender to the fact that this relationship is NOT something you can control right now.
That's an uncomfortable feeling, but the sooner you own that fact, the better you'll do.
I told her at no point I gave her signs of that but the opposite and she said I was so nervous and unstable that she could not trust it and needed to protect herself.
This says it all Pack. A woman is never going to want to be with someone they view as nervous and unstable. It makes her feel unsafe.
The worst about knowing she is done is when she says "if you had changed 3 months earlier we wold not be here". It makes me feel like a big failure after the many times she told me we had issues and I did not seek help.
That’s utter BS. Don’t believe it for a second. This is typical WAW behaviour. They RUN from responsibility and accountability. She is saying that to gaslight you into believing everything is your fault, and to overcome her own internal guilt that she made the decision to end the relationship.
Don’t buy into crap like this.
hi LH, Kind,
Thanks for the comments. I think is late to not believe because I kind of accepted all the blame when I was feeling so low in Germany. Only the last time we spoke I heard her say it was not 100% my fault. I don't know if something is changing inside her, I am not going to waste more energy trying to find out.
It's time to make things worse, as the man I want to be!
hi all!
hope you had a great weekend! I was at the beach and had a great time with friends. I have been thinking a lot about the last messages I got from both LH and Sandi about making things worse, stop the fight for my M and how I am no longer the problem here. I want to make things worse but at the same time I have the feeling I might be doing this with the expectation that making things worse will bring some light. Again, I need to control those expectations but I wanted to ask.
At the beginning of this a lot of people told me W needed to experience some things before she would be ready to R, if ever. What do they mean by this? life without me? that single life fantasy?
I have the feeling I am much better but still have the thoughts of getting back together. Sometimes I forget the woman that left me home promised to be faithful and take care of me for the rest of her life. I don't mean this in a vindictive way, I just feel this weight on my chest every time I think about how quickly she gave up, she must have been very unhappy over the last couple of years in Germany.
It's summer and as you can imagine is hard to see all the young and attractive women in summer clothes, some of them do notice me, it is a good feeling but I am tired of keeping these physical needs for me. Not that I dont have the discipline to still wait, it is just frustrating.
I had a chat with W yesterday. She called because her mom fell by accident while holding S2 and he bit his lower lip and has some bad bruises. We talked about the kids and the new clothes I have bought for them. It was a nice conversation, I wonder if these neutral chats help or not. Again, I see other situations where after 1 year spouses are at least talking about other things aside from R, not sure if this is normal but I would like to have more of those conversations.
Long ago I made the decision to stand for my M. I think you are helping me see this has nothing to do with W but it is all about me. I want to keep standing, but it has been a year now and I have not seen a single positive sign from W.
I started reading DR again this weekend. Amazing how you can always find new important lines to keep in your head. I am going to make a new 180 list for me and I will post it here. I miss my children, I miss them badly. I am off to my first IC session now!
will report this evening.
Thank you all for your help and support, I need to find more patient within myself
Yo Pack! I think there is a language barrier in your writing but if you were expecting her to take care of you for the rest of your life, that is probably part of the problem. You’re a grown man and not a child.
Yo LH! hahahaha you are always sharp! Yes English is not my mother tongue so I cannot put things as clearly as sometimes I wished.
I dont need anyone to take care of me, I am pretty good on that myself!
I meant in the way of promising to be there and offer you affection and support throughout life.
There haven't been changes in my situation. The work project is going better and I have realized I am heavily influenced in my mood based on how work is going (I wonder if it is something I need to work on or it just is part of my "responsible man package"), this means my mood is better. I haven't spoken to W since our phone conversation. I am really looking forward to my holidays but I never thought I would be planning a summer where we are strangers (those expectations from Pack, some of them still alive...)
My IC gave me the task to analyze and make a list of all good and bad tings me and W have brought to our M. I am not sure where she is going because long ago I made a list of reasons to fight for this and I maintain it.
Back to the making things worse! Isnt that thinking about doing something to see how W reacts? I mean it in terms of showing her she is going to lose me and that I am done with her BS. I miss sex badly, it has been a year and this [censored]. I am reading DR again and on step 2 I cannot come up with new goals for my R. I think I am not in that stage, I think no matter what I do, say or set as my goals it cannot have anything to do with W because she is moved on from our M. My personal goals are set and I am going after them no matter what.
The DB anniversary is coming up in a couple of days. People outside of my M seem to have a very clear picture that W is done and I am sadly stuck in a past that is false. Should I then file and move on? I know filing will not erase my feelings for W, but maybe I can force myself to move on and stop thinking about her every morning when I open my eyes. I dont know what to do, she asks for a separation, she tells me this does not have to end like this and she says it is my fault we are not piecing by now. What does this woman want? she is going to drive me crazy!
I wonder if I should talk to other women. I was with a good friend yesterday who told me "Pack she is behaving like a b@tch now but wait until she sees you walking next to another woman.. she will go crazy", I dont know if that would happen because she seems to hate every aspect of me.
I told W over the phone if she would like it I can drive to where they are to spend some time with the kids or maybe go for a walk the 4 of us, I said I would respect her decision. Maybe I made a mistake there but when I left the kids with her S6 made a comment on how 15 days were many days without seeing me. I agreed and told him I would do my best to go see them.
@ Sandi, have you given up on me?
Maybe I should take a more objective view on this and just move on. I find myself wondering if W still loves me or at least appreciates me as a father, if that is enough to restore love and how long it would take if it is ever to happen. All I want is a clear conversation, even if that is for her to say look I still want a D and then I would say ok goodbye and be happy! But is killing me the way all I have heard since covid is "I dont want to talk to you about this" or "I have already answered to you"
I just scanned through your posts going back to December. It sounds like your W is done and is going to be done for awhile. Things are going to have to get worse before they get better.
@ LH, what did you mean here? Thanks a lot for your support and time as always!!
I am struggling with the notion of making things worse because it seems to be centered in my M. Maybe worse means for me to give up and move on and go through the pain that will mean?
Pac you have to build a life for yourself that anyone would want to be a part of, full of fun activities, outside interests, and engaging friends. If you can do both of those things -- completely emotionally uncouple from her (fake it until you make it) and build an amazing life for yourself, she'll clamor to come back and if she doesn't you won't care. That's your only winning path out of where you are, but getting there is going to be uncomfortable, and more painful than you feel today, because it will go against your white knight nature.
You've been trying to "nice your way back" for the last 12 months.
It's not working, it will never work.
You cannot placate her, you cannot "prove your love" through acts of giving and support.
You also cannot push her away by withdrawing support.
She has chosen her course of action, and as of right now, nothing you do will impact it.
Your shortest path back together is to go the opposite direction.
You need to make things worse before they can get better.
Are you willing to do that?
If not, you can expect many more years of the same thing you have now.
hi Sandi! LH!
Thanks for coming by! why am I so emotionally retarded?
I am having a great day today, only the sex thing which is making me uncomfortable by now. Work is going great and I was with friends yesterday! (hitting the bar hard as promised to LH) I bought some diving gear for the weekend I will spend in Portugal at the beach and I have completed my longest run of the month!
I woke up today missing W badly, I was thinking of the many road trips we took when living in the UK and it made me sad. It has been a year, I had a chat with my father today and he really encouraged me to give up and move on. What do you guys think? is a year too much considering W has made zero efforts to improve communication between us?
I do have 2 wonderful kids with this woman, but at some point I will have to get control over my life again. I dont think that will happen until I fully close my M, yet I will not be the one to initiate D. I love the woman I married, she is there somewhere and I am sure we could be extremely happy. Just want your honest opinion, beyond GAL and detaching which are two huge musts for me now.
New goals for step 2 in DR:
> No R conversations - never ever ever EVER... EVER! I have said all I had to say.
> Be the best version of Pack I can be
> Detach from W and our ugly conversations (fake it until you make it)
Lets see if at the 4th attempt I can finally get the steps working. I want to make things worse, I feel stuck.
Thank you all!
BTW, the whistle was for the advice LH has given you.
@ Sandi, have you given up on me?
No, but I felt you were not taking the main advice to detach and stop conversing with her. I saw you grabbing hold to a little phrase or idiom we might use, and you wouldn't let go of it. You may ask, "What's the problem grabbing hold to a few words and not letting go"? The problem is when your brain is so focused on that one little group of words you like, until it's out of focus on the other important information within the entire post we write. You are not the only person who does this, FWIW.
Even when I told you to stop trying to get your W back, you continued pursuing through verbal conversations with her. You are not emotionally detached, and these actions pull you back into the belief you can
verbally convince her that you are
good enough to give you another chance. That line of thinking is wrong, for this situation. Until you stop trying to convince her you are good enough to be her H, you will be her slave and she will never respect you. Do know what I mean? You don't get a woman's respect by bowing down to her and twisting yourself into whatever mold she wants you to be. You get a woman's respect by being a man of integrity, honor, and core values, that guide your daily decisions. If the woman is too blinded by her
own issues to recognize the value in him, then it's up to her to work through her issues. It time for you to stop beating yourself to a pulp, and seeing yourself as a failure. Learn from mistakes and move on. You can't make her love you.
Maybe I should take a more objective view on this and just move on.
Taking an objective view is exactly what we want you to do. However, you cannot be objective when your emotions are tied to every word, every act, and every attitude shown in your W. With every breath you take, it seems to be linked with the idea you will convince your W to come back to you. Your mindset seems to be that you will either get good enough for her to take you back, or you can talk long & hard enough to change her mind. Neither of these avenues will lead to a successful reconciliation.
I find myself wondering if W still loves me or at least appreciates me as a father, if that is enough to restore love and how long it would take if it is ever to happen.
No, she does not appreciate you as a father, b/c she is jealous of her children spending time with their father, and she is trying to corrupt the children's feelings for their father. Can you not see what she is doing to the oldest son? As he grows, she will talk to him with the same bitter attitude in which she talks to you. She will punish him much in the same way she is punishing you, through shaming tactics, accusations, threats, cold silence, etc. This can cause psychological damage to children. Frankly, your W seems to extend her mindset about you to how she feels toward her children, which is very unhealthy. Perhaps she has an unhealthy attitude toward all men, IDK. Perhaps her mother passed along old resentments of her own. It can happen within that mother-daughter relationship when the daughter is growing up.
I'm simply suggesting that this deep resentment and rage toward you......and her seemly, in the process of extending the same mentality of guilt & shame toward the oldest son (by attacking his self esteem, and making him feel guilty for the time he enjoys with his father, etc.) comes from a physiological depth that Paco cannot change. As I've told you in previous posts, this is
her problem, and it's up to her to get help to change how she views things and how she feels. She cannot mature emotionally, as long as she holds others accountable for her happiness. If this attitude and mindset was established before she grew up, and before she married, then the target for
any unhappiness would be her H. She has to blame someone else, instead of taking responsibility for own decisions and her own happiness. Emotionally immature people will blame someone else for their lack of success and/or happiness.
I don't think her mindset will change as long as she can escape taking responsibility for her
own happiness. How is she escaping responsibility? She escapes by blaming her H for her unhappiness, blaming her sons (who will grow into men) for her unhappiness, and basically seeing
all men through a preconceived negative viewpoint. You have tried to prove her wrong, but she won't allow it. IMHO, you trying to be everything you think she wants in a H, can't be accomplished. Why? B/c she has allowed bitterness, playing the victim, and a sense of entitlement to fill her soul and her stubbornness has not soften. So, what have you done through all your attempts to prove you've changed and can be a much better H? You've reinforced her unrealistic ideas about MR. You took all the responsibly for the problems in the MR.......and, thinking if you did so, then you could change it by changing yourself. However, like many LBH's, you saw those improvements as a fix-all tactic to getting your W back. As we began to get a better view of your W, we tried to redirect how you interpreted these 180's or self improvement. You would often post a response with the correct wording of someone who understood what we said, but your actions continued repeating the very things we tried to discourage.
All I want is a clear conversation, even if that is for her to say look I still want a D and then I would say ok goodbye and be happy!
OMG! See what I mean? You won't drop the idea of having another conversation. Your bullheadedness is working against you. Your W is not going to tell you "goodbye and be happy"! Are you kidding? She doesn't want you to be happy!!
She wants you to be miserable!! Why? B/c she blames you for her own misery. As I said previously, she has already started working on your oldest son with shame & guilt......which is the same method she uses when talking to you. She plays the victim, while inflicting damage on the other person.
WAKE UP, PACO!
hi Sandi and all others!
This is one of the messages I will have to read over and over again. Thanks a lot for your words Sandi, you are always a breath of fresh air in this situation.
I have spent a good first fortnight in August. I missed the kids terribly, I had not been this long without seeing them since last winter. I have been working on the new project, going out with friends, trying to talk to other women as much as possible and focusing on my exercising and diet.
We exchanged kids yesterday, W told me some things about the children clothes, the things she had packed and the doctor for the small one as he has a minor thing in his heart we need to monitor. I listened to her and looked her in the eyes. When I am holding the small one and she wants to kiss him she always gets really close, I dont read anything there, I am just saying her body touches mine and it is hard for me, she seems comfortable next to me but then she says all that WAW cr@p...
She did not miss this opportunity to remind me I had taken us here, she does not want to be with me and I deserve someone who wants to be with me. She said I need to man up and stand the consequences of my actions. She said goodbye to the kids all cheerful and ignored me on her way back home. She told because I keep blaming her its like no time has passed, not the year that we have gone through. I dont give importance to these things, I dont want to ask about them and what you think, I need to vent out and share this somewhere.
I have been thinking a lot about the whole making things worse concept and working on detaching from the unhealthy R with W now. I have come to the conclusion the best thing I can do I move on, forgive myself for my mistakes, entirely kill the dark side of me that took me here and make myself happy again. It is impossible to start anew with a person that will not even have a cordial conversation and only has negatives opinions on you.
W is looking great as it is summer and we are all sun tanned and thinner (most of us.. hahaha) and I wake up many days regretting that I was not more caring and turn to her physically as we were together. As I said I have asked my IC to dig deeper on why money has been such a source of issues in my past, why I withdrew when arguing with W and work to never let that happen again.
BTW, the whistle was for the advice LH has given you.
He is the best, I might be now in a better position to re read all your post and gain a healthier mindset on my situation.
Even when I told you to stop trying to get your W back, you continued pursuing through verbal conversations with her. You are not emotionally detached, and these actions pull you back into the belief you can verbally convince her that you are good enough to give you another chance. That line of thinking is wrong, for this situation. Until you stop trying to convince her you are good enough to be her H, you will be her slave and she will never respect you. Do know what I mean? You don't get a woman's respect by bowing down to her and twisting yourself into whatever mold she wants you to be. You get a woman's respect by being a man of integrity, honor, and core values, that guide your daily decisions. If the woman is too blinded by her own issues to recognize the value in him, then it's up to her to work through her issues. It time for you to stop beating yourself to a pulp, and seeing yourself as a failure. Learn from mistakes and move on. You can't make her love you.
I spend a lot of time thinking about the man I want to be and my core values. However many of those values are focused on my family and it is hard to see it as me and the kids right now, I need to improve on that perception of what my family is and why I cannot change that now, who knows what the future will bring. I have many friends now talking about buying houses, settling down and similar. It is very hard to listen to that on my side, I feel like I had plans and goals I need to give up not because of me. At the same time, I have had my life on hold for a year because of a W who can only show anger and disgust towards me. I am not going to say I have wasted a year, because I have implemented changes, but I dont think I can do anything to get my family back.
Taking an objective view is exactly what we want you to do. However, you cannot be objective when your emotions are tied to every word, every act, and every attitude shown in your W. With every breath you take, it seems to be linked with the idea you will convince your W to come back to you. Your mindset seems to be that you will either get good enough for her to take you back, or you can talk long & hard enough to change her mind. Neither of these avenues will lead to a successful reconciliation.
I will stop doing things for her or us. I will put myself at the centre and I will become the man I want to be and the father that these 2 mini monsters need as an example on their childhood.
No, she does not appreciate you as a father, b/c she is jealous of her children spending time with their father, and she is trying to corrupt the children's feelings for their father. Can you not see what she is doing to the oldest son? As he grows, she will talk to him with the same bitter attitude in which she talks to you. She will punish him much in the same way she is punishing you, through shaming tactics, accusations, threats, cold silence, etc. This can cause psychological damage to children. Frankly, your W seems to extend her mindset about you to how she feels toward her children, which is very unhealthy. Perhaps she has an unhealthy attitude toward all men, IDK. Perhaps her mother passed along old resentments of her own. It can happen within that mother-daughter relationship when the daughter is growing up.
I'm simply suggesting that this deep resentment and rage toward you......and her seemly, in the process of extending the same mentality of guilt & shame toward the oldest son (by attacking his self esteem, and making him feel guilty for the time he enjoys with his father, etc.) comes from a physiological depth that Paco cannot change. As I've told you in previous posts, this is her problem, and it's up to her to get help to change how she views things and how she feels. She cannot mature emotionally, as long as she holds others accountable for her happiness. If this attitude and mindset was established before she grew up, and before she married, then the target for any unhappiness would be her H. She has to blame someone else, instead of taking responsibility for own decisions and her own happiness. Emotionally immature people will blame someone else for their lack of success and/or happiness.
I have not seen this coming but it is true that she is projecting some of those unhealthy thoughts on S6. The way she wont look inside as I am doing now is what I cannot understand. Perhaps as DR book states, by being always there, always trying to talk, always asking if she wants to go out with the kids... I have deprived her from the time to look inside and realize I am not the reason our R was the way it was and her unhappiness. Not that I care, I honestly just want to be happy now, however that looks like for me now,.
I don't think her mindset will change as long as she can escape taking responsibility for her own happiness. How is she escaping responsibility? She escapes by blaming her H for her unhappiness, blaming her sons (who will grow into men) for her unhappiness, and basically seeing all men through a preconceived negative viewpoint. You have tried to prove her wrong, but she won't allow it. IMHO, you trying to be everything you think she wants in a H, can't be accomplished. Why? B/c she has allowed bitterness, playing the victim, and a sense of entitlement to fill her soul and her stubbornness has not soften. So, what have you done through all your attempts to prove you've changed and can be a much better H? You've reinforced her unrealistic ideas about MR. You took all the responsibly for the problems in the MR.......and, thinking if you did so, then you could change it by changing yourself. However, like many LBH's, you saw those improvements as a fix-all tactic to getting your W back. As we began to get a better view of your W, we tried to redirect how you interpreted these 180's or self improvement. You would often post a response with the correct wording of someone who understood what we said, but your actions continued repeating the very things we tried to discourage.
This is for me to read many times, thanks Sandi,.
I am on it. I will keep posting, thank you all for your help!
hugs! Packs
I have been thinking a lot about the whole making things worse concept and working on detaching from the unhealthy R with W now. I have come to the conclusion the best thing I can do I move on, forgive myself for my mistakes, entirely kill the dark side of me that took me here and make myself happy again.
Great!
I spend a lot of time thinking about the man I want to be and my core values. However many of those values are focused on my family and it is hard to see it as me and the kids right now, I need to improve on that perception of what my family is and why I cannot change that now, who knows what the future will bring.
It's all in how you define "family". If your W had died, instead of choosing separation, you would see yourself and your children as your family. Am I right? However, since your W willingly chose to separate/divorce you..........you
give her all the power of being a family, and without her you have no family whatsoever? Your desire was to have your W come back, and have your children full time. I realize your family does not
feel complete, b/c you miss that void she left. So, what do you do? You do the next best thing. That's how we deal with life, by doing the best with what we are given. When your children are staying with your W, that's the time you can ramp up GAL and doing activities you couldn't do if you had your young children along. When the children are staying with you, that's when you can enjoy one on one time with them.........and rather than focus on one person who doesn't want to be a family with you.........you focus on your family of three. That's the next best thing. That's taking what you have and making the most of it.
We exchanged kids yesterday, W told me some things about the children clothes, the things she had packed and the doctor for the small one as he has a minor thing in his heart we need to monitor. I listened to her and looked her in the eyes.
Okay, I think it's time we tweak this looking into her eyes. I think some LBH's have a tendency to overdo with looking into her eyes when she talks. I say this, based on how LBH's have trouble balancing what they read on the board. It's fine for you to maintain eye contact when she is going over the the doctor's report about the baby. If she's moving around doing things while she's telling you, then you won't be able to hold eye contact. Trying to follow her eyes as she walks around, would look a little creepy. You can look at her, and nod your head to indicate you hear her. Okay? Stay balanced.
Now let me try to clarify something important about looking into her eyes when she talks. The minute she takes the opportunity to start her old WAW cr@p, that's the minute you stop looking at her, and you walk out. Just b/c one of the rules says to look her in the eyes, doesn't mean you do it while she's berating you! Understand? You already know she's going to take a verbal whack at you every time you exchange the kids. Therefore, get the kids and get away from her as quickly as possible. No staring into her eyes at this point, okay? No hanging around for Paco's beating. If she's fuming at the mouth, you walk away. This
is you manning up, so to speak, and she may not like the results, but those are the consequences.
Maybe you see yourself doing a 180 from when you would avoid talks in the past. I want you to realize this isn't what's happening. Forget applying that particular 180 with your W at this time......b/c it's not working! DBing is doing what works. Okay? So, scratch that one off your list........if, in fact, that's what you were trying to do. Being someone's cat to kick around does not earn respect.
I dont give importance to these things, I dont want to ask about them and what you think, I need to vent out and share this somewhere.
It's fine to come here and vent. I just want to make sure that you are clear about walking away the minute she starts her cr@p. Get the kids, get in the car, and drive away while her jaws are still flapping. This is you showing no tolerance for her disrespect & bullying tactics. "She'll get angry". Well, so what else is new? This is part of things getting worse before they can get better. Can you see what I mean here?
I wake up many days regretting that I was not more caring and turn to her physically as we were together. As I said I have asked my IC to dig deeper on why money has been such a source of issues in my past, why I withdrew when arguing with W and work to never let that happen again.
Only you really know how much time you spent earning a living for your family. When I was growing up, a man's role was to be the bread winner. He was financially responsible for his family. I can't remember if your W was a stay at home mom. These days, it takes both spouses working to support a family, or one spouse with a really
good salary. I'm not trying to sound as if you should just get a free pass, but I do believe you need to cut yourself some slack.
I have not seen this coming but it is true that she is projecting some of those unhealthy thoughts on S6. The way she wont look inside as I am doing now is what I cannot understand. Perhaps as DR book states, by being always there, always trying to talk, always asking if she wants to go out with the kids... I have deprived her from the time to look inside and realize I am not the reason our R was the way it was and her unhappiness.
Exactly!
I think you are closer to seeing things a bit clearer. Once you stop acting as if you have no backbone, and stop allowing her to attack you.........your eyes are going to see things you've never noticed.
((hugs))
Hi all, Sandi,
I hope everyone is doing great in this wonderful board! My holidays with the kids are coming to an end and it has been great in helping me reset my DB batteries to do it right for once at all.
I have read again DB, conscious that I was misunderstanding or perhaps not applying correctly the principles and making an effort to this time do the hard job (the hard job being now making things worse and building a great life apart from W) and this time I have resolved to become a solution detective myself. There has been no contact with W beyond those times when we need to video call the kids and I have been thinking about a lot of unhealthy aspects in our R and how to avoid these things again in my future.
A couple of days ago S6 had a fever and I told W. She spent a couple of days writing to me to ask about him. I was polite and for the first time she replied a couple of times saying goodnight or wishing us a good day. Then I told her if she was having a good time, I had no answer and I stopped any communication outside of the kids.
I have been exercising as always (I ran 65 km spread across 6 days last week), reading my self-improvement books and focused on making my kids have a great time at the beach or home. In parallel, thanks to being with my parents in their beach house I get their help to get out some nights and have the fun I need the most right now (talking about social GAL activities!
) without the kids. I have many good friends here and sometimes when we talk about the new aspects of healthy relationships I am learning they would validate those ideas but also tell me is something that should come natural in a mature relationship. Many of those conversations have opened my eyes about the ugly aspects that W brought into our R and every day I am more convinced I made mistakes but I am not to blame for all of our problems not to mention for her decision to leave me in Germany. I dont say this in a vengeful way, I truly believe I am getting to a healthier position wrt our R and my role in the problems we had.
I am working on detachment but sometimes I slip back. Just the other day W was talking to S6 over the phone and when she says goodbye she is so affectionate sending hugs and kisses to S6 and S2 it always makes me think "it as if I did not exist to her". Not that I expect any affection, what I mean is that it still hurts to realize her attitude towards me is so cold and angry.
IC is going great, we are currently analyzing that most likely we were living above our possibilities as I was the only one working and not that I had a wonderful salary, at least for the early years of our M, and how I cannot take blame for the decision W took to come and live with me in the UK and Germany (in the same way she cannot blame me after deciding to come herself). We have been talking a lot about how to let people be free and make their own decisions and helping me accept now W has taken a decision I cannot to anything about.
I have received some compliments from female friends I had never heard before, must be that I am more in shape than ever and that helps a lot with my low self esteem problem at the moment. I think a lot about those words from LH19 about making things worse and feeling things are going down. The more I feel I am finally stopping trying to save my M, the more I feel is dead. What I mean is that one cannot help think about the other person in the sense of, she just wants time to go by and the more time passes, the further in the past our life together and our good memories.
I review the rules almost daily and I think about the things I am doing right and the ones I am doing wrong. Sandi, thanks a lot for your messages as always. I dont think I abuse the eye-looking technique, only when we are face to face and she is talking to me is when I look at her in the eyes but I had never thought about cutting communication when she comes back to her WAW cr@p, I will incorporate this tip in my toolbox.
She was a stay at home mom and is not that I had the greatest salary in the UK and my first two jobs in Germany. I have always pushed myself to improve and get a better position at work because I wanted to give our children the best and I might have over pushed myself.
The concept of family, that nightmare. I have fully embraced the idea of being happy and the best I can be as the man I want to be (alone now), yet I see us as incomplete, not that I need a woman next to me, more that I would like my children to have both their father and mother there, I know it is not in my hands now. I dont think so much about what W is doing and with who, I think I am improving very slowly but finally improving.
This situation s@cks, fighting for your M a year after separation and alone is a terrible feeling. Every morning I renew my decision to fight for my M and family and I commit to making the most of the things I can control now but this is not a walk of roses. I feel alone, I still feel I failed to my children and I have not accepted my W does not love me anymore, but this board is fuel to keep going. Eventually, I will be happy, with or without her.
Thank you all for your support and time! hugs, Packs
hi all,
I needed to write today before going to sleep. I heard yesterday from a very good friend that W made out with a friend of a friend last winter. Apparently she wanted something more but he freaked out by the idea of her having two children. This has been confirmed by someone I really trust.
I have tried to face W today via telephone. I wanted to give her an ultimatum and say if I do not hear in two weeks about our M and her stand, I will start the D process and before I could finish she answered "I am not getting back with you" and she hanged up. I tried to call a couple of times without an answer and finally I sent her a message telling her I will not have an open M and I will file if I do not hear from her.
I love my children and want to fight for this but I still have some pride. You might say as many friends oh she is free as you are separated and you need to accept it. Sorry but I cannot be married to a person who does not share basic principles as these ones with me. I would never do that, even if we had problems heavy enough. I feel like filling, now what? I tell my W I will file for D in 15 days and obviously she is not going to say anything in that time.
I am very lost today, this hurts beyond all the cr@p she has told me before. I dont want my children to know I filed but I feel this is too much. We had two days when she talked to me about money only, now she is back to I hate you and do not even talk to me if it is not about the kids. I cannot take this anymore, she is out there doing the hell she wants and I am supposed to have zero love for myself and sacrifice my happiness for our family. I wanted my ultimatum to be serious and once again she disrespects me at my face, not even that she could hear in person.
P,
You are being driven by emotion and are making major mistakes.
hi LH19,
What am I supposed to do?
At any point I see her is all about I am never getting back with you and then I hear about these things. I talked to my L today and she told me she would not file because she would leave the door open for the future as we got married very young and we have little children.
You know when someone wrote here that hell and high water will both come and will come sometimes together. Well it has caught me without air in my lungs. I hate this situation and the things that are happening, I truly wish I had never got married so young and stupid.
Should I ignore what happened and continue my GAL and building an amazing life as the man I want to be?
thank you all
P,
Ultimatums are about control and you are trying to control her. You don't issue an ultimatum and then when she hangs up on you then you call her back. You can't control the outcome.
I want you to take some time and figure out what you want before you file. You still have a lot of work to do on you. Accept that right now there is nothing you can do to change your situation.
Hey Pack,
My situation is somewhat different, but its been a year since S also. Its taken me a year to start really accepting where I am at and not feeling sorry for myself and the kids. And not being angry or resentful at my W. It flares up on occasion and almost always sets me back. I also have a firm stance on no infidelity, which we both seem to agree on thus far. I would rather move on than deal with that.
I want to be with W and our family, but you cannot force that nor do you want to. I could also be happy coparenting fully if I had to.
Don't stay in it for the kids. You need to figure out who your W is, how you got here and if you want her long term.
Granted my W has not given up and not treating me like crap, but you need to remove yourself from her equation. Get to a point where you are OK and excited about a future without her if need be. Its taken me a year, but I am getting there. I want R, but I also know I will be fine either way.
You have a lot going for you. You are young and haven't been married a long time. The best thing you can do to get her attention is kick ass and ignore her behavior.
If you have an issue with something she did, you need to ask her about it. Not give an ultimatum. If it is confirmed, convey that you will not be in an open marriage. That is it. Figure out what you want to do. Keep the M for now if its not hurting you financially, but think about Pack and a future without her.
Emotion is a killer.
Should I ignore what happened and continue my GAL and building an amazing life as the man I want to be?
Think about the words you've said here ^^^^^^^^^.
What are your options? Should you crawl into a shell and die emotionally, b/c your W pretended that everything was your fault......while she pursued another guy?
I have tried to face W today via telephone. I wanted to give her an ultimatum and say if I do not hear in two weeks about our M and her stand, I will start the D process and before I could finish she answered "I am not getting back with you" and she hanged up. I tried to call a couple of times without an answer and finally I sent her a message telling her I will not have an open M and I will file if I do not hear from her.
Well, you've backed yourself into a corner. You've told her what you will do. Don't expect her to bend to your wishes. I think you will hear from her, if you go silent. I think she will follow her old behavior pattern and verbally chew you up and spit you out of her mouth.......again. I don't think your threat will have any positive results. The question you have now, is what do you do after giving her an ultimatum. It is your decision if you follow through with the ultimatum or not. I want you to think very carefully about the results if you follow through, and the results if you don't.
I dont want my children to know I filed but I feel this is too much.
Why, b/c you are afraid they will see you as the bad guy? As long as you are honest with them, and you are involved in their lives as a loving father......I don't believe they are going to resent you for being the one who filed for D. You have been the parent who did everything you could to restore the marriage/family. That's the
important part, when you discuss it with your children. Divorce wasn't what you preferred, but there came a time you felt you had to stand on your principles. (Many people file for D based on their principles.) I'm not saying the children will never wish their parents had not remained together. I'm saying they will not see you as being a
bad guy for filing for a D.
You mentioned how your friends say that your W is free to see other men while separated from you. That is a common belief and practice among many people. They see a separation as being single. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, b/c my principles may not be the same as yours. Your W's viewpoint may not agree with
your viewpoint about how she conducts herself while separated. If so, then I don't think your ultimatum is going to prevent her from staying separated or from seeing another man. If that's true, then what do you do? You cannot control her. You only control Paco.
I agree with LH, that you need to calm down your emotions and stop reacting to her actions. People don't make great decisions when they are reacting on their emotions.
I tell my W I will file for D in 15 days and obviously she is not going to say anything in that time.
Now listen, Paco, you wait out those 15 days, and don't reach out to her. Don't contact her. I think your emotions will want you to contact her to apply more pressure.......but don't do it. Don't try to have another discussion. Come here to write about your feelings, but don't contact her. Just work on calming down, so that you can think better, okay? I think she will test you, by giving you a phone call. Be prepared, b/c it's only a test. It will not be her ready to say she wants to save the marriage. If she wants to tell you something, she can send you an email. She doesn't like emails, b/c it doesn't give her the satisfaction of verbally giving you a beating.
Does she have the children during this time?
hi all,
thanks for all the comments and support. Things have gone worse, I did send her a message telling her I thought her behaviour was despicable and she was a lousy wife and mother (yes I was freaking inspired there but I let my emotions run wild) and she passed it on to her L. I have been warned by my L because of domestic violence so I am backing off totally. Basically, all the things I thought she would never do, she is doing.
We have been communicating via email and yesterday afternoon I spend some time with the children which was great for me. S6 told me we are separated because I was "bad with mommy" which was very hard to hear but I calmly told her I was never bad, only nervous and it will never happen again.
If I try to talk to her about the information I got on her going out wild she will ignore me, she treats me like a dog again. Yesterday when I dropped the kids we met at her elevator and her words were "It was back by 21 not 21:15 and do not ever come up my elevator" then she tried to take the kids and leave but I stopped her to kiss them goodbye.
I talked to my L. She recommended I dont file because we are very young and have young kids but if the things my friends told me are true I want to file. I would never do this to my spouse, ever, I would divorce first and I cannot understand she does it. I know for sure my S6 wants me to keep fighting.
I have spent the last 3 nights sleeping intermittently, I woke up today thinking about sending her an email to ask for clarifications but is only going to make me look weak. I am so tired of being treated this way. what should I do?
@ Sandi,
She has the children until Sunday, then I get them next week and then she gets them the week after and so on. We have been communicating as I said over email the last 2 days.
I never meant to give her the ultimatum to get her back, sadly for me I truly feel our M is somehow there and I refuse to live in an open M where she can go out and pursue whoever she wants while I get up every day thinking about the man I want to be and the R I would like us to have. It is not fair for me, I would never do this and if we are to go down this path I say we do it divorced. The thing is that she hates me so much she couldnt care less about any words I say.
I think a lot about your comments on how things had to get worse before I could see a change if ever, well I dont think things can get any worse than when your W threatens with police. I am a good father and I love my W, that is all, I do not deserve this treatment...
I dont know how I will proceed when the 15 days have passed and she has not said a word. As I am sure it is what will happen. Thank you all.
P,
First and foremost I want to clarify what things typically need to get worse before they get better means typically people need to go through a divorce and the WW needs to hit rock bottom. Then the WW can look at themselves and realize they also had a role in the downfall of the marriage. They realize there were more good times then bad and life was better together. This does not always happens. Sometimes people are better off apart.
THIS DOES NOT MEAN GETTING THE POLICE CALLED ON YOU!
You are going to struggle because you have a tough time controlling your emotions. You also think you can control your Ws actions. If her being with other men is a deal breaker for you then you should probably file for D right now. You painted yourself into a corner with this ultimatum.
Unfortunately Pack it's been a year and you still think you can control the outcome. You are sadly mistaken my friend. You are 29 years old. Almost half my age. Do you want to spend the rest of your life chasing a woman who wants nothing to do with you?
The clock is ticking on your ultimatum.
LH, thanks for your words. I am trying to be detached from this situation, I am trying to be happy and leave W aside but I keep coming back to memories and the value of our kids.
My W being with other men IS a deal breaker for me, I cannot be with someone who does not share those values with me. I dont want to control what she does, I want her to be clear. If she is I can then file with peace of mind, if she keeps hiding things and treating me like a criminal I cannot file based on a rumor.
I can only control my happiness, that is very clear. I do not want to spend the rest of my life chasing a woman who treats me like a bad person and disrespects me even in front of my children. Maybe she has changed more than I could ever imagine, or maybe she was always this way and married me because we had a son and it was "the right thing to do".
I am going to stay way and silent for 15 days starting yesterday and if I do not hear anything from her I will ask my L to change the S for a D. I went to Ikea yesterday, I am renewing my entire bedroom, all in. If we are going to sleep with other people I will do it in a new bed and a new house, apart from all the focking memories these pieces of furniture bring to me, apart from anywhere I laid with her, but I will the pictures of my children, they are the best thing that ever happened to me and whoever is going to love me will understand it.
Pack,
You have been separated over a year. I can 99.9% guarantee you your W has been with other men.
If an open marriage is a deal breaker for you (which IMO it should be) then it is ok to file. You did your best to save the marriage.
What I will say is that I think you have a lot to still work on.
I did send her a message telling her I thought her behaviour was despicable and she was a lousy wife and mother (yes I was freaking inspired there but I let my emotions run wild) and she passed it on to her L. I have been warned by my L because of domestic violence so I am backing off totally. Basically, all the things I thought she would never do, she is doing.
Pack ~
Hard 2x4 - You CANNOT be sending these kinds of text messages and think they are doing anything other than massive harm. Not only will you end up D'd, you may end up battling for time with your kids. Restraining orders have been issued on far flimsier things (fair or not). Drill this in your head. I'm sorry for the harsh tone but forget about your W and your MR and everything else. You need to follow this rule first and foremost right now. I cannot stress this enough.
Rather than focus on your W, who I assure you cannot control in any way whatsoever, try shifting that focus to your own emotional awareness, self-control, and self-soothing. You are reacting emotionally and issuing ultimatums, sending nasty texts... do you see the direction you might be headed?
I agree with LH that you have a lot to work on. Hang in there, focus on what's important and ignore the noise.
hi all,
thanks for all your support. I read all your messages yesterday many times, I decided to send her a message and back off as Sandi suggested.
Here is what I wrote :
"I need to talk to you, without shouting and without contempt, as you imagine I still believe that we can be very happy but for me our marriage is not dead and I will not live in an open marriage where we can do whatever we want because my values are that I have promised to be your support and partner for life and I will fulfill it if you allow me. At least grant me the dignity to sit down with me and explain to me how you feel. I'm not going to pressure you into anything, right now I'm going to pull away from you because I don't think I can go any lower and I need to think about who I am, who you are, what we are together and what I want in this life. If you prefer that we never talk and the days go by I will decide how I want to deal with this for me and the children."
She has not replied to my message, she will not say a word and it is killing me (I came to write here as Sandi suggested because I am very nervous inside myself, if she doesnt answer is it not confirming she sees us as free to be with others?)
I have been working on getting to a calm place and to think a lot about my decision. I do not want a divorce, there is value in our family, there are virtues in W I want in my life and many of our problems have been caused by the circumstances in our M and life abroad and it does not mean we cannot be happy. At the same time I cannot be in an open M because I would never do that to a person loyal as I consider myself to be. This situation is dreadful. I know I dont need to justify anything to W about my decision. But here is what I have been thinking.
If I file, I can really start to think as she does right now, I can be free from this ghost M that only exists in my head, I send a clear message, I am faithful and expect my W or partner to be the same but I will life with the what if all those rumors were a lie and I took the step I so many times promised myself I would not take.
If I dont file I will look like a clown in from of W (more if even possible), I will work on the suggestions you have given me and become open to meeting other people. I will try to make S go back to normal and focus on fixing my problems and thinking of my future.
In the first option, I give up on myself and force myself to move on by a D and send a strong message. In the second, I dig deeper for strength and patience and remain faithful to my values in the big picture.
It is really killing me that I write in a calm and respectful way about something so serious, asking for clarification and only get silence back, this woman does not respect me a tiny bit. I need to hit the weights and go out today (already have a plan to) because my brain is running wild. For 15 days I will wait, be silent and post here.
Thank you all, even after all my mistakes, the blame I felt at the beginning and my emotional immaturity I still feel you are helping me and are the oxygen I need to keep going. I truly cannot imagine how this year would have gone without you all.
((hugs)), Pack
P, I don't post here often but please, please stop and think about what you are doing. From an outsiders perspective it looks like you are making an effort to scare her away forever.
Just that first sentence "I need to talk to you". If I was her, being in the mindset she is in, I would have stopped reading right there. Then you go on to demand that she explains her feelings to you? And the next sentence is "I'm not going to pressure you" which is what you just did.
And you don't file to send a "strong message". You file because you are done with her and her behaviour and you have given it enough time to think about what's best for you. Your marriage has been dead for a while. I get the feeling you are holding on to some of Sandi's rules like never give up and therefore ignoring most other rules. In her mind, the marriage is over and she has made that very clear to you.
Are you really surprised she’s not answering that?
It was full of pressure. Full of it. Full of desperation. Full of expectations fo her .
You are digging yourself a big hole you will not be able to get out of .
You are trying so hard to control and it’s going to blow up on your face big tome, and you can’t let it blow up by the way of custody of your kids.
You need to be silent and remember inaction is action.
Pack,
You are digging yourself a hole you will never be able to get out of my friend.
If you would have come to the board first we would have talked you down from the ledge.
Pick yourself up and dust yourself off.
Here is what I wrote :
"I need to talk to you, without shouting and without contempt, as you imagine I still believe that we can be very happy but for me our marriage is not dead and I will not live in an open marriage where we can do whatever we want because my values are that I have promised to be your support and partner for life and I will fulfill it if you allow me. At least grant me the dignity to sit down with me and explain to me how you feel. I'm not going to pressure you into anything, right now I'm going to pull away from you because I don't think I can go any lower and I need to think about who I am, who you are, what we are together and what I want in this life. If you prefer that we never talk and the days go by I will decide how I want to deal with this for me and the children."
This message if full of control and only talks about your needs.
She has not replied to my message, she will not say a word and it is killing me (I came to write here as Sandi suggested because I am very nervous inside myself, if she doesnt answer is it not confirming she sees us as free to be with others?)
When you do things with expectations - you are going to get burned every time. If this was truly about you - you would not need a response.
I have been working on getting to a calm place and to think a lot about my decision. I do not want a divorce, there is value in our family, there are virtues in W I want in my life and many of our problems have been caused by the circumstances in our M and life abroad and it does not mean we cannot be happy. At the same time I cannot be in an open M because I would never do that to a person loyal as I consider myself to be. This situation is dreadful. I know I dont need to justify anything to W about my decision. But here is what I have been thinking.
I am curious to know what a "calm place" feels like to you... only because your posts are anything but calm.
If I file, I can really start to think as she does right now, I can be free from this ghost M that only exists in my head, I send a clear message, I am faithful and expect my W or partner to be the same but I will life with the what if all those rumors were a lie and I took the step I so many times promised myself I would not take.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. Your marriage will be there always... whether active or a memory. Also who are you sending this message to and why?
If I dont file I will look like a clown in from of W (more if even possible), I will work on the suggestions you have given me and become open to meeting other people. I will try to make S go back to normal and focus on fixing my problems and thinking of my future.
So what? IMHO that first sentence motivates alot of what you are doing right now.
I do agree you should go back into your own lane of problems - they are truly the one ones you can control.
In the first option, I give up on myself and force myself to move on by a D and send a strong message. In the second, I dig deeper for strength and patience and remain faithful to my values in the big picture.
STOP. Hard STOP on trying to send a message to other people. It doesn't work that way in life let alone a marriage.
It is really killing me that I write in a calm and respectful way about something so serious, asking for clarification and only get silence back, this woman does not respect me a tiny bit. I need to hit the weights and go out today (already have a plan to) because my brain is running wild. For 15 days I will wait, be silent and post here.
That letter was in no way calm and respectful. It was full of your demands. It was sent to get a response to your wife... and when she didn't respond - you think the worst of her. It's victim thinking. You put your hand in the fire - you are gonna get burned. Can you see that the letter you thought would give you answers, or calmness or brought you MORE anxiety and MORE pain?
Pack - I see you are in a great deal of pain...and a great deal of fear. I also see you trying to do everything in your power to try and stop that pain and fear. And the hard truth - is that you can't. These situations hurt like h3ll. You can't control your way out of them. You can't force her to change - but you are still trying to. You keep putting your happiness on HER shoulders instead of your own. You keep thinking that if you control HER - your life will change. And it just doesn't work that way. We can only control one person - ourselves.
Which brings me to a suggestion which may be helpful. When I felt out of control and felt the need to control my fear through trying to control my XW's actions, I implemented at least a 24/48 hour wait time to talk/respond to her (unless it was very important). Some topics were so painful. I had to wait longer... but you are on an emotional rollercoaster right now. Finish the ride first. Let that fear run through your body and then let it go.
It's okay to be scared Pack. It's okay to be hurt to the deepest extent that you are... but you gotta control yourself. You keep mentioning about being this kind of man / that can of man. Do you really want to be a man that spews his pain onto other people? Especially the one who you claim you love the most??
Pack ~
Re-read Ginger's post very very closely.
In your mind, your worst-case outcome is D. Your actual worst-case outcome is losing your kids.
hi all,
Should I apologize to W for that message?
I will let this whole thing go, in my mind I have already made the decision to fight for this. I need to calm down and work on myself big time. I will come back here before doing any stupid thing again. If she does not want to clarify this to me is her problem, I have a life to build and happiness to find with my children.
I am very scared, in pain, lonely and hearing that she had been with other mean as obvious as it sounds to all of you, has devastated me. I have always thought about the man I want to be in terms of the good times, I dont know how to react to this situation while maintaining my dignity and self confidence.
Maybe is time for inaction and to take care of myself... I dont know what else I could do now to get me out of where I am.
I will leave her be, I dont know how things got this bad, we spent the summer apart and I was felling strong and leaving her be. I need to get back in track. Thank you all for your help and support. I am sorry I did not come here first, I will next time, you are for sure more mature than I am about this.
Pack
noooooooooo do not apologize!!!!
Leave it alone.
Hi all,
I am spending the weekend with friends at the beach and I really needed something like that after the sh@t week and my mistakes over the last couple of days. I have been thinking a lot about what I want to do and how I want to face the upcoming months. I dont want to file, I still believe in our M and family and if W ever agreed I would fulfill my role as her H.
At the same time for me as long as we are S this is not an open M. I know I cannot control her, I know I need to let her go and build a life for myself to be happy with my circumstances and children. Is there a point in trying to clarify this with W? I feel like doing nothing in terms of my M, maybe it is time to look at me and how to make me happy again. I know what the question is now, I can only decide for me. Am I willing to stand longer knowing she is pursuing other men? Well she has not clarified but assuming it is true and as long as there is not an A going on, I can endure, I can focus on me and go on.
Time to dig myself out and refocus. Thank you all for your help, this situation os hurting beyond any explanation O can give, but I know here you can understand the panic and pain.