This is long I'm sorry about that I guess Im just trying to get my thoughts out of my head.
Hi, I'm new here obviously. I've been together with my wife for 12 years now, technically 13 in may but I guess we wont make it to that special number now. We were high school sweet hearts. She was a freshman and I was a sophomore. We had almost all of our firsts together. Every real decision in my life has been based around creating and having a life with her. We have been married for roughly 2 and half years. I know it took me a long time to ask and honestly that was a big part of why I'm here I think. Not the timing itself but my inability to make a decision, overthink every possible outcome etc. A month ago my wife told me she didn't want to be with me anymore. That I had spent the majority of the last 12 years making her feel like garbage. This honestly isn't something new she has been saying that forever usually in moments of anger though. She did threaten to leave often again in anger though. I tried many times to work on me in some ways but admittedly not in the ways that really mattered and not hard enough. I have a control issue that I used to belittle my wife, it was not intentional but I realize how silly it was now. Being grumpy about her wearing make up, who she was spending time with, telling her what I thought things were stupid all the time. I pushed away many friends she tried to have. I ruined all kinds of moments with my negativity. I passed up on important moments for selfish reasons including refusing to go and meet her family for the first time in Florida a couple months ago. All great things to recognize and fix in hind sight as I type this now but I didn't see any of the things that occurred over the last month or so happening.
Roughly a month and 2 week ago by my approximation. My wife decided to join a sexy meme group on Facebook it was linked via another meme group shed been apart of for awhile. She says it was all just for fun. But a few days past and suddenly she decides she needs to make up new accounts and emails to rejoin with. Then starts to really get involved with the posts. Responding provocatively posting her own memes engaging everyone she can. A post goes out about joining the group chat which she does. During this week, we were both off work due to the virus we had just a nice weekend with our little brother and sister. We celebrated my mothers birthday early. We were having a pretty good week my wife is always stressed by work. When she has a period of time off we normally have a great time. She was very intimate in fact actively pursing me, which is very rare for her, it was great. I was very happy. The next week she goes back to work and is very frustrated by it especially because she is excepted to do all her normal shifts even though there is no work to do. Meanwhile I am at home on call still being paid. On the group during this week she is now in the chat and meeting more and more people she is having fun and ends up talking to 2 men more privately, sending photos and sexting. In 12 years my wife has never sent a dirty photo to me. Any time is was discussed or I tried to take photo for myself it was a fight about how she trusted me but not that it wouldn't get out by mistake. I always respected that. At home the week is strained but in my mind okay were just both on edge. Friday I finish installing a new sink we decided to buy and am very proud I finished it myself without any help. My wife calls and suggest we pick up pizza. She has been kinda short with me that day and I assume work is bothering her so she doesn't want to deal with cooking. When she gets home kinda late I rush her back out the door to get the pizza the entire time she is standoffish and I didn't understand why. Then in the liquor store where we decided to grab some slushs I ask if there is anything else she wants and she says a vape. My wife smoked when I met her and I told her I wasn't interested in a smoker no harm no foul. She quit that day to be with me and hasn't smoked for 12 years. Today she wants to push my buttons though It puts me in a bad mood for the rest of the day but whatever I think we will discuss it later. All this time I still am not really that bothered just a bad day. Later that night she takes a shower but gets dressed in the bathroom. This is the moment that makes everything feel wrong. I've never spied on my wife or felt a need to look at her stuff. But today I cant help it. I grab her spare phone and unlock it and instantly see a chat from a disturbing group I've never heard of, the meme group I mentioned earlier. the subject martial bothers me, if she had involved me maybe not so much spice up our marriage a little. IN the group my wife is discussing hair dye still not a big deal. But then I notice there are other direct messages. I open one and instantly see a dick video and I scroll quickly to see pictures of my wife she sent back to him. I stop there, the idea that I need to really look more and understand this maybe get evidence passed by my mind. I decide no, I need to confront her let her tell me and have remorse so we can work this out.
As you can imagine it didn't go that way. She at first asks me what I'm talking about of course she didn't. I tell her I saw them and her face twists into a smile. Okay fine yes I am. I ask why and shes says I don't know it just happened. She says shes sorry she lied and she kept it from me. One of the big things in my life has always been affairs. I didn't believe in them I didn't even date girls more than a month as a kid unless I though it would last. There is nothing wrong with having a good time with people but relationships are commitment. If that changes you should voice it first. SO this was a lot for me. I ask her what know, and she tells me she doesn't want to be together. We fight fro awhile about why and she tells me the things I mentioned in the first block. She tells me that the affair has nothing to do with it. She felt this way for a long time. That is probably true but obviously the affair plays a role too. If nothing else it gave her the confidence and strength to finally say it. We fight into the night, by fight I mean I beg. Eventually I get her to change her words and call it a break. But she also wont agree to any break boundaries she wont stop the affair etc. She says that maybe she can see us back together if I change.
So I do, I change overnight. The truth is I had actually been working on a lot of things more seriously over the last year. I was tired of myself and wanted a better me. Also I had planned on asking my wife to have a child in the coming month now that I was off probation from my new job. The probation was 12 months and full of problems. So that was driving the need for a new me. It was slow going though. Baby steps so I didn't fail. But now I had to be a new man now. The one thing I was asked to do at the moment though I could not control. She wanted space and not to bothered about things that "were not my business". The group was not my business until we were back together and then we would deal with it. Of course the jealousy of that group made that impossible and it felt like an insurmountable obstacle in my way. A week in and with limited ability to really spy on her I blew up. A number of strange sites on her browsing history throughout the day made me feel like my wife wanted to run away with one of the men. That day I snatched her phone when she came back. It was a terrible fight. And was officially the end of her being nice with her accounts she changed all the passwords for the things I still knew. To make matters worse my wife had been talking to a friend and about the new house she bought and was planning to come home and talk to me about it. I said she had stopped talking to me for awhile and she was trying to put in effort to tell me more. After that I feel like any of my attempts of showing change are mostly ignored, Didn't help that I couldn't stop asking about the group, our relationship, if she noticed things I was doing etc. 3 weeks go by of me continuing to try. During this time my wife agrees to one boundary, while she is still considering what I am working to show her, she wont send anything unclothed just underwear. That literally brings me to tears and makes me feel happier than I have in awhile. I realize in the morning I just had euphoria over letting my wife send underwear shots to other men and Im disgusted anew. I keep trying and come last friday I'm having a hard time know that not only has a month now passed since she joined and everyday she is on the group is building closer bonds, when I found it it had been about 2 weeks in only. I confront her with how she feels in a more serious way than I have been. She says that the things I have been doing are great but also that doesn't believe their totally genuine. Even if they are then why now, why not the million other times she asked. Also its not really changing how shes done with me. She explains that in best light It feels like Im filling in a hole thats 12 years deep and even if I fill it it will probably take a lot more than that to make her see it as stable. She doesn't know if any of it will ever make it fell the way she use to and she doesn't want to waste my time but its up to me. That night when she comes home she tells me she doesn't think this is fair to me or her. She wont keep anymore boundaries and time will tell if anything changes. I obviously should have kept my mouth shut as I made her think more about this through the day by confronting her. My depression slinks back to its worse state now as I feel my hope is gone. Im still not giving up though. I want to have my wife back, I love her more than anything.
So now I am here hoping to find support and techniques to help. Tomorrow is officially the 1 month mark since she told me. It has been a roller coaster. Since the beginning she has told me still cares for me and wants to be friends. She wants to live here while we sort out our new lives. It is honestly best for both of us financially. She discussed moving out of our bedroom but I haven't allowed it Im just not ready to sleep alone. She hasn't fought me on it. She does what she wants and seems very happy and free. She goes out to see friends, she started smoking again at least socially. She talks on her group and has informed me that the men she lied to me about are no longer apart of her life they got boring and needy. There are new ones but at least I can take solace in that they are from after we separated. Obviously this doesn't help. In my mind ever person in that group is an EA. Regardless if there conversations are sexual or not they are a crouch to help her feel better. She also joined bumble but assures me is just set to BFF mode. She has wanted friends for years and has always had a hard time making and keeping them. She says a lot of that is due to me being overbearing and rude. Shes not wrong in that regard I did chase away her friends and have a very hard time being social. So even when I tried I made her feel anxious when I was around her friends. I am not allowed to really ask her much about anything other than school, work and what we are doing together. She rarely opens up about anything on her own. Every morning she talks with me while getting ready as if everything is fine. We have dinner together, we make decisions about groceries, sometimes even shop together. We spend at least a couple hours each night watching tv and talking. I am still regularly bringing conversations back to us as I don't know what else to talk about. I remind her that even though I'm depressed I am not being negative anymore. That my mind is fully focused on a positive outcome and I want to prove that to her. Over the last month she slowly stopped the act. She wont wear a wedding ring at all anymore regardless if we are going to see my or her family. Neither have been told yet. She has finally stopped telling me she loves me when she leaves a literal 12 year habit that has never been skipped before. She never mentions us on her own. So far only 1 friend of hers has been told no one else knows. The group was told she was separated but before she joined, so no hard feelings to anyone for being a home wreaker. A couple days ago she added one of the group members to her regular facebook with all our family. She has become very close to this girl and tells me even if we got back together she would want to fight to keep that friendship. I dont know how to feel about that. Today I plan to start making phone calls to find a IC. I told my wife that is my plan and she should look into it as well. I have been working harder on not bringing up our relationship anymore. I have been giving her more space to figure out what shes doing. It has not been easy and I am definitely not accomplishing it that well. I finally reached out to my sister and told her whats going on. I have no friends at all. Havent for many years. I am not close to my family either but I had no where else to go. She has been very helpful and we have been closer than we ever have been. I am going to try and spend more time there a week to help give us both space.
I feel miserable and don't know what is going to happen next. I hope that things will someday change for the better in our relationship. I want to have my wife back. I want to make her feel the way she deserves and give her the life we have always wanted. I want to start the family that we have worked sooo hard to finally be somewhat stable enough to have. Our life together has been full of ups and downs. Every step of the way we had to face some sort of obstacle to earn the next milestone. Jeez my wife broke her humerus the day we were supposed to close on our house playing handball at work. A very rare bone to break. That has always been our life and we have always been there together to get through it. I know it was far from perfect but I never thought we would be here.
To anyone who reads, encourages or offers advice thank you.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Holy smokes dude that was painful to read and you have a full blown Girls Gone Wild on your Hands. Get into IC immediately as you have a lot to work on. I am sorry it has come to this but you came to the right place. See my comments below.
One of the big things in my life has always been affairs. I didn't believe in them.
I don't believe in them either especially when you are married.
She says that maybe she can see us back together if I change.
Take this with a grain of salt.
So I do, I change overnight.
It is impossible for you to change overnight. You have a lot of work to do going forward.
During this time my wife agrees to one boundary, while she is still considering what I am working to show her, she wont send anything unclothed just underwear. That literally brings me to tears and makes me feel happier than I have in awhile. I realize in the morning I just had euphoria over letting my wife send underwear shots to other men and Im disgusted anew.
Yeah that's a tough one.
So now I am here hoping to find support and techniques to help.
You came to the right place.
Tomorrow is officially the 1 month mark since she told me. It has been a roller coaster. Since the beginning she has told me still cares for me and wants to be friends. She wants to live here while we sort out our new lives. It is honestly best for both of us financially.
One month is a blip on the radar. This is going to take months probably years to play out.
She discussed moving out of our bedroom but I haven't allowed it Im just not ready to sleep alone. She hasn't fought me on it.
That is very needy and controlling behavior that you need to STOP immediately.
She does what she wants and seems very happy and free. She goes out to see friends, she started smoking again at least socially. She talks on her group and has informed me that the men she lied to me about are no longer apart of her life they got boring and needy. There are new ones but at least I can take solace in that they are from after we separated. Obviously this doesn't help. In my mind ever person in that group is an EA. Regardless if there conversations are sexual or not they are a crouch to help her feel better. She also joined bumble but assures me is just set to BFF mode.
I am afraid she is not being completely honest with you dude.
She has wanted friends for years and has always had a hard time making and keeping them. She says a lot of that is due to me being overbearing and rude. Shes not wrong in that regard I did chase away her friends and have a very hard time being social. So even when I tried I made her feel anxious when I was around her friends. I am not allowed to really ask her much about anything other than school, work and what we are doing together.
You need to work on the behavior.
I have been working harder on not bringing up our relationship anymore. I have been giving her more space to figure out what shes doing. It has not been easy and I am definitely not accomplishing it that well.
You have to give her time and space to figure her stuff out.
I am not going to lie, this is going to be the toughest thing you have ever gone through in your life. The more you apply pressure the more you will push her away.
Good luck man!
Simply put. Its going to seem impossible, but 180 on your non-social and/or controlling habits. Don't tell her anything about what she should do. Controlling. You are probably way more attached and dependent on her than you realize and it will be hard, but go out and work on yourself (when we can again). Read, workout, get out, keep busy and think about how to improve yourself. This has built up over many years and will take a lot of letting go and changing. That hardest part is realizing you need to work on yourself while she figures herself out.
You can do it...read up around here.
Either way, you and possibly your relationship will be better/stronger. Remember that.
Thanks LH you and my sister basically had the same opinion on her behavior. My sister says she thinks she feels like she missed out on her time to be crazy because she was with me and now she wants to live that time again. I agree with what your pointing out not sure I can believe her about anything. And yes I need to stop my controlling behavior. I recognize my faults and am trying to change them. Just finished setting up my first counseling appointment for Monday so hopefully that will help me over time.
Greenman: thanks for the advise. That is the goal to work on those issues. Im trying to keep myself busy but honestly I can't find joy in anything right now. I honestly don't know how to work on my social problems though. I get anxiety easily. I always seem to have nothing to talk about. I have never even understood how to make a friend. I never had any as a kid really just people that had basically been there as an obligation. Kids that my family spent time around. Kids that grew up with me through every grade. I basically lost contact with all of them as we grew into real people and never made any as an adult. So yeah I definitely know I have a serious dependency issue with my wife. I have been fully aware of how unhealthy it is for a little while now. Which obviously makes this all the more harder to lose that only support I have.
I know regardless of how badly I want it to, this won't end easily. I really hope that something good comes out of it for our relationship but I also understand that may not happen. I'm not at a place where I can really even function without that hope yet. I appreciate you guys being here to let me work out some of thoughts in writing.
Hi Illidin,
That I had spent the majority of the last 12 years making her feel like garbage. This honestly isn't something new she has been saying that forever usually in moments of anger though. I have a control issue that I used to belittle my wife, it was not intentional but I realize how silly it was now. Being grumpy about her wearing make up, who she was spending time with, telling her what I thought things were stupid all the time. I pushed away many friends she tried to have. I ruined all kinds of moments with my negativity.
Any idea where your tendency to control came from? Since one of your topics was your dislike of her wearing makeup, perhaps insecurity? I know you say you changed overnight, but that's rare and your actions say the opposite--e.g., snatching her phone, begging, making her stay in your bedroom. You say you don't have a circle of friends. Mine is small and I began building it post-BD. The more you can make your life joyful and satisfying, the more attractive you will be to her, and the better your life regardless of outcome.
She has become very close to this girl and tells me even if we got back together she would want to fight to keep that friendship. I dont know how to feel about that.
Your old relationship is toast. Much later, if and when she's interested in a Relationship 2.0, that would be a fair question to ask--is her new lifestyle and circle of friends one you can accept or no?
Sorry you're going through all this craziness. An EA is of course wrong even if you weren't a perfect partner. Steve85' sitch has similarities (W sending pics) and he reconciled, so keep an eye out for him.
I honestly don't know how to work on my social problems though. I get anxiety easily.
Even before BD, I went from having social anxiety to leading large groups. That one was simple--find a CBT-based app, website, or therapist and work the program. I was done within 3 months.
I always seem to have nothing to talk about.
"Coronavirus" is the new "Weather". Ask what they're doing to get food, stay sane, etc. Their answers will say something about them. Look for commonalities. Look for something they're dying to share.
I have never even understood how to make a friend. I definitely know I have a serious dependency issue with my wife. I have been fully aware of how unhealthy it is for a little while now. Which obviously makes this all the more harder to lose that only support I have.
To find people, use an app like Meetup. There are also fitness groups. The more people you interact with, the higher the chance you'll find one or more with commonalities. Reach out to past friends, co-workers, etc. You can wish them a "Happy <holiday>'. You can write a 5-word comments on their posts.
It's hard. It's not impossible. Good luck, Illidin.
Hi Illidin,
Any idea where your tendency to control came from? Since one of your topics was your dislike of her wearing makeup, perhaps insecurity? I know you say you changed overnight, but that's rare and your actions say the opposite--e.g., snatching her phone, begging, making her stay in your bedroom.
Probably my father he is terribly controlling in his relationship with my mother and even though Ive worked very hard not to be like them tendencies moved over anyway in different fashions. My sister has similar problems and my brother likely does too. My stuff tends to all be passive aggressive and usual unconsciously. I'll feel irritated or insecure about something. Look moody talk less. Poke jabs at people. In the case of the make up its actually kind of a strange story. When I met her she was a goth princess. Had no problem with make up she has always been stunning. As we dated she started wearing more subdued looks when we went out for a nice date. Which I always complimented more than the heavy approach. As we got more relaxed I regularly saw here without any and always thought that she was amazing gorgeous with her natural face. One day she asked me what I preferred and I said I loved her face without the make up. She stopped wearing it after that because I preferred it. I didn't ask at the time but I thought it was really nice. Years later she started spending some time with some girls and started wearing matching make up with them. Super over the top looks which I said weren't the best look for her. It shouldn't have been more than that, simply that I didn't prefer it but it wasn't. I felt really betrayed that she had stopped doing that thing for me and instead was doing this for these girls. Thats a messed up way to think I know. I was still really young though. That led a serious of outings where I was emotionally a jackass every time she wore it. Of course as you imagine that didn't help the friendship last when they knew I would likely be in the picture long term. Nowadays she wears make up everyday its still on the light side but it is what she wants and I have no issue with it. I have no issue at all to be honest anymore with it. But she still brings up that she doesnt do more or she didn't start doing it again sooner because of the stigma I created then. Obviously there were alot of other things over time issues with her being out late, money was a big one, I have always been very budget conscious and frugal. And as already stated I do not have a proper support system which means I want to do everything with her and get lonely without her. That is of course asking for trouble. I wouldn't let her go places alone or would bug her over and over again while gone. Even if I went though I was usually not fun to be with which made her friends not like inviting us places. I know I can't change my feelings overnight and I am way to insecure with everything happening right now. But I changed alot of the core behaviors. I stopped constantly being negative, I complimented her more, I paid closer attention versus being complacent and half there. The little things I let fade away. The bigger things of course can't be different instantly. Although some of them I have been working on for awhile and she didn't even notice. I have been encouraging to her to go out more and not being bothered when she does. I have been trying to work on my social skills at work so I can start spending more time with her out. We have been doing more spur of the moment outings where before I would always say we couldn't afford it. Thats not to say all the problems were being worked on equally well. My stress and negativity was still pretty much constant everyday. I would complain about probably a million little things a day. Floors creaking that thought needed to be repaired, decisions over who would cook that night, complaining slightly when asked to do something instead of just doing it happily. I also had strong opinions about how quickly she could finish her bachelors program and I would hound her about not committing as much time as we agreed she would when decided to take out loans for it. Mind you she is still killing that program but it was just something that put me on edge cause I didn't want it to hold us back. She hates her job and the sooner she finishes the sooner she change careers and I know she can do it. Our overall communication was breaking down more over the years also which made me snippy. I constantly had to badger her with questions just to find out what happened at work that day. Which has always been a trigger. Having to ask her what she said even once has always been enough to have her rip your head off. So asking a lot of questions was always a sure fight.
To find people, use an app like Meetup. There are also fitness groups. The more people you interact with, the higher the chance you'll find one or more with commonalities. Reach out to past friends, co-workers, etc. You can wish them a "Happy <holiday>'. You can write a 5-word comments on their posts.
I tried meetup once and couldn't find anything in my town. Everything would have required me to travel into the city an hour away. Even then most of it was crafts, hikes, sports or bar meetups. Im not really crafty, hikes are something im kinda interested in but am not in shape right now. I hurt my legs when I was kid and can't hyperextend so most sports have always been kinda out for me and I don't enjoy them to watch either. Don't drink at all so people who drink recreationally dont usually find me fun. I use to really be into cinema but fell out of it after my wife and I got more serious. A board game group would be fun. I enjoy a good game of cards although don't have too much gambling money all the time. I don't usually see things like that posted out there often though. I have reached out to really the only person I have ever considered a friend. We talked for about a week its kinda fallen apart since then. I kinda understand hes coming out a rough time and trying to make a 5 year relationship work so dealing with a sad third wheel right now probably isn't ideal. I'll think about all of these things though. Try to see who I think I can reach out too. that is actually still local.
Illidin, I am sorry you are here, but glad you found us. We can help, and we can encourage you. Remember, encouragement is both attaboys, and 2x4s. No one here is mean on purpose so prepare yourself for some hard things to hear. We've all been there. If you read my threads on my sitch you will see I was getting 2x4s left and right!!
I related to a lot of what you wrote. I too was a controlling, mean, overbearing, jerk. No easier way to put it. My W and I were terrible at conflict resolutions. She was not interested in sex. She isn't a good house-keeper and is a SAHM. The frustration, anger, resentment and bitterness grew over time. To the point where I felt used and unappreciated. That made me negative. I belittled every TV show she watched. Every song she enjoyed. Every hobby and pastime she engaged in. So by time Bomb Day rolled around, she was completely right in telling me she wanted out. (She wasn't right in her behavior leading up to that point, but that is another story.)
So the dynamics sound similar. One thing you need to know, is that her thoughts of taking this step of ending your relationship has gone on for a longtime. Many WASs start mentally walking away at least a year before BD. Some even longer than that. So while you are on a roller-coaster, and want to fix everything, it can't be done. Certainly you can't talk her into changing her mind. You can't talk your way out of what took you years to act your way into. And even if you started doing everything right from this moment on, it will take a long time to act your way back into a new marriage with her.
Your marriage is over. Dead. Never coming back. Now you can work on creating a on new marriage, MR 2.0 we like to call it, but understand that is months, if not years away. And sadly may not be with your W. Not going to lie, odds are against you. Especially since you've already done so many wrong things.
You see, after BD the right thing to do is to back off, give her space, focus on you. That means keep yourself busy apart from her (what you described above for your new normal ain't that). That means not begging, pleading, reasoning etc. Also, as controller, you need to stop all controlling behaviors. Immediately. More on that in a minute. You need to continue to do what you are doing around improving yourself. BUT, remember this rule. The minute you point out to her your positive changes, the impact of that change is lost. Potentially forever. No one ever believes someone has truly changed if that person is constantly pointing it out to the other person. Proving permanent change takes consistency and time. Permanent change isn't a snow storm. What those produce come and go. Permanent change is a glacier etching permanent changes into the earth over hundreds and thousands of years. Be the glacier.
Finally, you have to work on detachment. Loving, emotional detachment. Google "Self-differentiation in marriage" for a good healthy way you should be with your wife. You need to really work on detaching your emotions and reactions from her words and deeds. Yeah, that is tough, but you can do it. And the benefits to your current situation, and in a future relationship with her would astound you!!
So back to controlling. Your controlling nature has never ceased. You still have been trying to control her, and your situation. You have control over neither!! And trying to exert control over those will cause them to spin further out of your control and push her farther and farther away. How have you been controlling? Reread your OP: demanding boundaries, insisting on her talking about the relationship, trying to get her to agree to trying, etc. All CONTROLLING. Even your IC search showed control:
"I am going to do IC, and I suggest you do the same." Sorry dude, that is controlling. "I want you to do IC because maybe the IC will tell you to stay with me!" First, that is pressure and pursuit. Second, that is an expectation that you are surely going to be disappointed about. Read other sitchs here and you will see the majority of IC tell the WAS they are doing the right thing! Some don't but the majority do.
This would have been non-controlling: "I have decided to do IC. A lot has happened, and I need to learn how to deal with it and work through it."
Illidin, I think the best thing you can focus on, other than yourself (through GAL and staying busy, 180s and self-improvements, and detachment) is to remove ALL pressure and pursuit. Every time you have an impulse to do something or say somthing, stop yourself and ask: "is this in any way pressure or pursuit". Even if you have an inkling of a doubt that it isn't, then DON'T SAY OR DO IT!! Your goal is zero, zip, nada pressure or pursuit.
One last plug on detachment, it is so important to work on. You noticing everything she is doing (not saying I love you (by the way if you are still saying it, stop),not wearing her ring), shows just how attached you are. I get the sense that a lot of what is going on is an extreme level of unhealthy attachment. A lot of your old behaviors are tied to that. Chasing friends away, not being social, shows almost a fixation on her and wanting her all to yourself. Even the excuses for not having kids! Trust me, there never a good time to have kids. Probation at work, financial downturns, buying things. There is ALWAYS an excuse. I think deep down you didn't want to have kids because then her focus wouldn't be solely on you. So I think you can make huge inroads at potentially reconciliation if, if you can emotionally detach. I think the unfair pressure of her having to constantly try to make you happy broke her. There is nothing more unfair than making someone responsible for your happiness. So 180 on that and work on detachment.
Illidin,
You hang in there. This is going to be quite a ride. Read Sandis 37 rules. And when you’re done read them again. I find myself reading them everyday. I use the website as a journal and it’s been wonderful to be able too. There’s so much valuable information in the welcome letter besides the rules too. Also, personally I like to read others peoples situations to see the successful reunions and the people who are genuinely ok when there isn’t a reunion. It’s empowering.
Remember you’re human and you’re going to make mistakes, we all do. (I continue too). Remember this is all about working on ourselves. Becoming a better/best version of ourselves we can be. We also need to be happy with ourselves and be ok with being alone or moving on. That really is the goal.
The idea behind this imo, and I’m newer to this too, is once we become happy and content and confident our spouses will be attracted to us the way they once were, or at least intrigued. By than you may not want them back. Now remember this is all a big if with no guarantees. But if you work on yourself and you can be happy by yourself it won’t matter nearly as much if they don’t return.
Please continue to post and welcome to the forums.
Illidin,
I echo what others wrote. Be patient with yourself. Drop all expectations. Read as much as you can. My sitch is at 1 1/2 years mark already. W and I are back on the upswing. It took physical separation, splitting assets, and having weekly rotations of child custody before it started to sink in, the reality of it all.
I met my wife when we were 19 and now I'm 45. She's one of my close friend's sister. I can relate to much of what you said. I mishandled a lot of my past because I was a misguided kid. I simple didn't know any better at the time. I took this time in our separation as time to reflect and work on my emotional and self control. It's embarrassingly like night and day. I would say I felt like I was some entitled spoiled brat who was stuck in being a boy and not growing up as a man. That's what I think happens sometimes when we become overly enmeshed with our significant other is that our identity is always as 1 unit, which can be rightly justified by many. We still have to be self differentiated as Steve puts it. I wholeheartedly agree with that.
Get into IC to really take a look at what you've shared with us about that controlling nature. Try not to do that as another means of control. If you really want the help, you'll find it. What you wont find is that magic bullet to make your wife stay.
Some of the best advice given to me was to keep eating and drinking, sleep well, and work out. Get some fresh air and exercise. Whether you like it or not, your W just signed you up for this marathon so pace yourself.
IF you think you've changed in a day or a few days, you may want to look at the man in the mirror. Don't be discouraged, but just be honest and know its a long road ahead. You got the support of people who've been down that road. It can be ugly and can get uglier. This will be based on the choices you make from here on out. Your self-improvement can start today, for you. It always about you first.
Thanks everyone for your words. I can tell I must be even more messed up then I realize with all the tough love I'm getting. Its ok though, I appreciate the support and probably need to be knocked down a peg or 2. Its very hard to think of my relationship as dead but honestly I've been trying to fully convince myself of that all month. I know there isn't a scenario where everything just goes back to how it was. That wouldn't be fair to either of us anyway. I'm really trying to put in the work to get myself over this first hump. I know it will probably take awhile though. This week my wife has been coming home a lot less. I'm sure shes probably trying to avoid my awkwardness and badgering. I tried very hard not bring anything up that would be damaging yesterday. Towards the end of the night there was one subject that I felt was not going to be good but was business I thought needed to be said. She didn't really respond to me since it was late.
Basically with May quickly approaching now mothers day will be here in a few weeks. Luckily it looks like the virus will allow us to skip the bombshell it was original going to be. As I mentioned before right before the BD we celebrated my mothers birthday. At the party my mother told us all the only thing she wanted for mothers day were new family portraits. We hadn't done any in a long time and she wanted new ones for her freshly remolded living room that included her new daughter. At the time I really appreciated the sentiment. My wife has always loved my family more then her own due to them treating her more like family then her's ever did. At the same time my wife had alot of fears about not being invited to things more often with my mother one and one and thought regularly that she wasn't liked as much. I always told her that wasn't the case she just needed to put herself out there more. I didn't speak to mother about this and that was completely her decision to say that she wanted a portrait with all her kids my wife included. So at the least the big thing is avoided until the social distance ends. But I still need to buy a gift now and figure out if my wife will be coming to deliver it with me. Same goes for her mother. We still haven't told them so in there minds we should be there as normal. At this moment I'm just trying to avoid thinking about about our anniversary on the 18th. I guess its technically isn't a thing anymore but I know it will hurt and I'm not sure if I should at least do something, buy dinner or at least give a generic card.
I could really use some advice on how we should proceed with certain things. Obviously my wife is living with me and wants to. The bedroom thing is obviously a problem that has to be dealt with. But is that considered to be the right choice or is it just a personal decision to live together versus leave or ask them too. Alot of these rules talk about no contact or distancing and I'm just not sure how that works when you see each other every day. More or less continue living the same life as before short of any of intimacy or couple habits. I also fear being completely friend zoned which my wife keeps repeating over and over again she wants to stay friends. Did most of you inform your families of separation? We already more or less had separate finances. There are a couple things that could be changed such as the car payment for our new family car I bought this year. She drives it but technically its only in my name and was my decision to buy it to replace my old pickup. Things that we put aside for savings on the house or vacations together technically doesn't need to be split anymore as those were couple things. I have no access to her stuff anymore obviously with the nature of the break up but she still has full access to mine. Should I change that?
Joesph - Yeah I can definitely tell that this program isn't really about stopping a divorce and neither is any other program I have seen. The true point is about learning to like yourself and recognize and fix the parts of you that are damaging. Saving a marriage is the possible byproduct of that goal but the not the actual goal at the end of day. In fact it seems pretty clear that the consensus is that unless you reach a point where you can live without the R then you'll never really make it to a point in the program where your spouse might come back. I have also been reading a lot of situation especially where people ended up reconciling. Helps give me some hope to push away the bleakness I feel. Although I dont think I have found a single success story yet of someone like me. Most of them appear to be who have a lot more years in and kids to give them a common ground to interact especially after physical separation.
But I still need to buy a gift now and figure out if my wife will be coming to deliver it with me.
Mother's Day and your Anniversary are weeks away. Much can change in that time. Re: Mother's Day, I'd probably re-assess how you two are getting along a week before. I encourage my kids to give my ex-wife a card and/or gift on Mother's Day, but that's personal preference. Re: Anniversary, I'd probably skip the card because you two are not in a relationship for now--she's broken up or is on a no-boundaries break from you.
The bedroom thing is obviously a problem that has to be dealt with. But is that considered to be the right choice or is it just a personal decision to live together versus leave or ask them too. She discussed moving out of our bedroom but I haven't allowed it Im just not ready to sleep alone.
There are a range of reasonable responses. I'd avoid telling her she can't move out of the bedroom, and I'd avoid moving out yourself, but that still leaves many options to take your time and weigh.
Words I might keep on standby if she brought the bedroom topic up: "I was wrong to say you must sleep in this room. I'll sleep here, and I enjoy sleeping next to you, but it's your choice where you sleep." A clear 180 on your controlling behavior setting her free--which in fact she always was--that would be undermined if you repeatedly apologized, plead for an outcome, or called attention to the change.
Hopefully a veteran with more EA experience will chime in before you cross this bridge, and you'll have more time to read other situations to see how they handled this common dilemma.
(Affairs sometimes suggest stronger responses.)
Thanks everyone for your words. I can tell I must be even more messed up then I realize with all the tough love I'm getting. Its ok though, I appreciate the support and probably need to be knocked down a peg or 2. Its very hard to think of my relationship as dead but honestly I've been trying to fully convince myself of that all month. I know there isn't a scenario where everything just goes back to how it was. That wouldn't be fair to either of us anyway. I'm really trying to put in the work to get myself over this first hump. I know it will probably take awhile though. This week my wife has been coming home a lot less. I'm sure shes probably trying to avoid my awkwardness and badgering. I tried very hard not bring anything up that would be damaging yesterday. Towards the end of the night there was one subject that I felt was not going to be good but was business I thought needed to be said. She didn't really respond to me since it was late.
Basically with May quickly approaching now mothers day will be here in a few weeks. Luckily it looks like the virus will allow us to skip the bombshell it was original going to be. As I mentioned before right before the BD we celebrated my mothers birthday. At the party my mother told us all the only thing she wanted for mothers day were new family portraits. We hadn't done any in a long time and she wanted new ones for her freshly remolded living room that included her new daughter. At the time I really appreciated the sentiment. My wife has always loved my family more then her own due to them treating her more like family then her's ever did. At the same time my wife had alot of fears about not being invited to things more often with my mother one and one and thought regularly that she wasn't liked as much. I always told her that wasn't the case she just needed to put herself out there more. I didn't speak to mother about this and that was completely her decision to say that she wanted a portrait with all her kids my wife included. So at the least the big thing is avoided until the social distance ends. But I still need to buy a gift now and figure out if my wife will be coming to deliver it with me. Same goes for her mother. We still haven't told them so in there minds we should be there as normal. At this moment I'm just trying to avoid thinking about about our anniversary on the 18th. I guess its technically isn't a thing anymore but I know it will hurt and I'm not sure if I should at least do something, buy dinner or at least give a generic card.
I could really use some advice on how we should proceed with certain things. Obviously my wife is living with me and wants to. The bedroom thing is obviously a problem that has to be dealt with. But is that considered to be the right choice or is it just a personal decision to live together versus leave or ask them too. Alot of these rules talk about no contact or distancing and I'm just not sure how that works when you see each other every day. More or less continue living the same life as before short of any of intimacy or couple habits. I also fear being completely friend zoned which my wife keeps repeating over and over again she wants to stay friends. Did most of you inform your families of separation? We already more or less had separate finances. There are a couple things that could be changed such as the car payment for our new family car I bought this year. She drives it but technically its only in my name and was my decision to buy it to replace my old pickup. Things that we put aside for savings on the house or vacations together technically doesn't need to be split anymore as those were couple things. I have no access to her stuff anymore obviously with the nature of the break up but she still has full access to mine. Should I change that?
Joesph - Yeah I can definitely tell that this program isn't really about stopping a divorce and neither is any other program I have seen. The true point is about learning to like yourself and recognize and fix the parts of you that are damaging. Saving a marriage is the possible byproduct of that goal but the not the actual goal at the end of day. In fact it seems pretty clear that the consensus is that unless you reach a point where you can live without the R then you'll never really make it to a point in the program where your spouse might come back. I have also been reading a lot of situation especially where people ended up reconciling. Helps give me some hope to push away the bleakness I feel. Although I dont think I have found a single success story yet of someone like me. Most of them appear to be who have a lot more years in and kids to give them a common ground to interact especially after physical separation.
First off, even though there are similarities, every situation is different. There have been marriages that were reconciled with no kids involved. Or that were relatively new marriages. And there have been marriages with kids and a long history that ended in D. There was one particular heart-wrenching story of a longtime married coupled with adult children that on Thanksgiving she announced during dinner she was done and was leaving, and had her affair partner pick her up from the house and left that night. So every situation is unique, even if most of the things a WAS does is similar.
However, where I see you struggling right now is a very common thing for LBS. It is called the illusion of action. You think you have to be doing something, anything, to improve your situation. But here's the thing, you can't do anything to do that. You say that in your own words above, but then you go on about needing to do this and that.
Remember, doing nothing IS doing something. And the best thing you can do right now IS nothing. You talk about sharing a bedroom. Do you know how many LBSs here would kill to still be sharing a bedroom with their WAS? We see this a lot. Those that are in in-house separation think it would be easier to detach if their LBS would move out. And those that are physically separated think it would be easier to show their improvements if they were still living together. The fact is that these situations are tough, no matter what they are. You want to end your pain and you think doing something will help that. It won't. Many LBSs have pushing their spouse to leave, or to make some change, and they regretted it and wished they had left things alone.
Here's the thing with the bedroom. Unless she is actively in a physical affair, then letting her stay in the bedroom is fine. In my situation neither I nor my WAW (who was also a Wayward Wife) ever left the bedroom.
So take a deep breath, step back, and just take some time. You are worrying about things in the future. By Mother's Day your situation might be a lot different than it is now. So planning for it would be a waste of time right now.
So work on staying busy. Keep working on your self-improvements. Your idea for finding IC was a great idea. And study what detachment and work on it. Nothing turning my situation around like being detached and not reacting emotionally to my W's words and actions. She expected me to react like I always had. With anger, being upset, stonewalling, etc. When I didn't, when I was unaffected by what she said and did, and when I was still happy, upbeat, pleased, fulfilled and going about my own activities, she started seeing me differently. Work on it, you will be amazed by the impact it can have.
Well been a terrible 2 days. No one to blame but myself for that. My emotions have been completely all over the place. Couldn't keep myself in check. Broke down in tears twice. Summer has decided to show up in California so 90 degree weather is not helping my calm. Wouldn't stop talking about us any time I saw her and spent any time alone running situations of her affair through my head. She took off to a friend's a few hours ago not planning on coming back today. She was discussing spending the night soon last week.
Also heard back from the therapist today and was info to register for a therapy group I am not very excited by that as I'm not a religious man in any way. But hoping for the best.
So you did the exact opposite of what we advised? Illidin, you can make all the same mistakes we made and live with the consequences. Or you can learn from us and give your marriage the best chance it can have given the circumstances.
Trust me on this, you want faith -based therapy. If for no other reason than they will be pro-marriage.
I,
I want to start off by saying that I am sorry you are really struggling right now. I know you don't believe this right now but life is giving you a gift right now. The best thing you can do is set aside your marriage right now and get into therapy and free yourself. If you can do that then the bonus will be that it may restore your future. Your w is not coming back to your current marriage. You simply can not use logic and reason to get her to comeback.
Wouldn't stop talking about us any time I saw her and spent any time alone running situations of her affair through my head. She took off to a friend's a few hours ago not planning on coming back today.
Sorry to hear this. The more you pressure her, the more she'll run away.
Yeah so like I said messed up pretty bad. I hear what all you are saying and I know your info is really valuable. Im really trying to wrap my head around it logically I get it. But my emotions are another story. Someone said to research detachment more. I've been trying, alot of what I'm finding finding is about getting over ex's. The key tenants from those articles seem to be to erase. Accept that you can't be friends, don't contact, remove all the stimulus that associates you to them (which would be litteraly everything I own by the way). Obviously my goal isn't to forget about my wife just to have healthy distance from her so I can be happy with myself either way. If anyone has some better research material for this step please share it with me. Or if I am completely off base with my belief in how that may work let me know.
Just gonna journal for a bit
I took off shortly after her last night. The heat was driving me crazy and I couldn't be in the house anymore. Just kinda drove around and pitied I guess. I remembered my sister was supposed to have people over so I went over there thinking I could just play some board games and distract myself. Plans ended up getting changed so no one else was there. Decided to stay any way and had dinner and watched parasite. If your into some strange heady movies and don't mind subtitles I'd definitely recommend it. Went home around 10 being alone really messed with my mind. It did before all this as well I'd just get lonely easily but now it's a whole different kind of thing. Tried to talk to a friend online but he was heading off. Messed around with my bass for a bit and watched some TV eventually tried to sleep. Woke up every hour or so. Haven't really been motivated today just feel empty. It's 1:45 now wife is still gone. Was trying to not bother but around 1 finally texted to just see if I was going to cook or not. If she wasn't coming back I didn't want to go out of my way. She took awhile to respond but eventually said we'd just figure it out separatly because she didn't know when she would be back. Writing this stuff out I guess helps me clear my thoughts at the very least it puts my mind on a task. Not sure if that what journaling is about or if I should be trying to pry deeper into my feelings about these things. Was walking around the house earlier and noticed on a painting my wife made of a beach there was a heart in the sand with our intials. I don't think I'd noticed it before. Almost broke completely down. My parents text me to ask if we're all right. I use to make a point to come over at least every other week if nothing else to see my brother. And I haven't been answering calls from them either. I still don't know what to do about that. My wife doesn't really care other than questioning me about how I'd tell them. She doesn't want people to think this all because of an affair according to her. She doesn't want to be the bad guy. That this is about our problems for a long time how she felt because of me. Infidelity is like a wright of passage in her family. Practically everyone there has a story. But they are almost all still together also so I don't know. I think part of her problem with discussing it with people is she doesn't want to be compared to say her mother who she cants stand. Also she is afraid to lose my family forever. She's mentioned that she doesn't want to lose them a few times now, it's one of the few things that still bring out emotions from her. But at the end of the day she says it's up to me when we tell people that I'm the one clinging to a hope. I guess that's kinda it for now. Haven't eaten today I guess I should do that. Have dishes and laundry also.
Be very careful telling others about your sitch. Your wife needs as smooth a path back to MR2.0 with you as possible. Telling your family is just another obstacle to her coming back. I know in my sitch if I had told friends and family about my wife wanting a D, and and any of the details of her EA I'm pretty sure it's be divorced today. I'm sure that's not the case for everyone, but my wife is not one to face people she's disappointed.
Detachment is but forgetting. It's not putting the person out of sight and/or mind. It is being happy and content with yourself. It is not reacting emotionally to what she says it does. Google "self-differentiation in marriage". It is a complex thing so don't beat yourself up for but getting it, we all struggled with it as a concept.
Have in there, it does get better one way or another.
Thanks steve for kinda clarifying I'm not crazy in not wanting to forget. The self-differentiation from the little I've read makes a lot of sense. We were definitely missing that in our marriage or least I was. Truthfully I always believed at the bottom of my heart that marriage was about becoming one. That if one of us were invited somewhere then the other was by proxy and that was kinda how people saw it. That was actually a big fight a little while back.
The last couple days haven't been much better. She told me that she told another family member and it kinda set me off. It especially irritates me that she won't be honest and tell others about how it came to head with the affair. Just that she was talking to some guys and was in a group. It just hurts to feel like she can't take any blame even just for the infidelity. This particular person is our god sons mother. I met with my therapist the same day. He seems like a nice guy. Mostly I just broke down about the marriage since its the main issue with me right now. But also talked about my far reaching insecurities and problems with trust and control. Fear and negativity. He said a lot of those things we can try and create new habits that will hopefully help adjust my mindset. He also coaxed me to say I wanted to save my marriage, I was trying not to since I didn't want this to be about that but about me. He gave me the name of a book to read to try and help me understand her mind set better so I could hopefully be better in that regard. I asked what he thought about me wanting to fight and he said if you want to save your marriage I think you should do everything you can before giving up. He also mentioned that if she was there it would be easier to work out the problems and the only thing I can do alone is hope to convince her to come back through actions. He agreed based on our conversation that I shouldn't talk about things that she doesn't bring up. He also spent a good chunk of time asking over and over again if I felt any love or want for her to return, even just the slightest glint in the eye occasionally. I said I honestly didn't. Im pretty certain he was trying to get me to see that it all may be useless.
So yeah was kinda more of the same today emotionally speaking but I'm working very hard to keep my mouth shut. Think I might go out after dinner and just be away for a bit but haven't decided yet. Conversation has been pleasant today but then again it always is until I bring something up or overstay my welcome. Otherwise were old friends, but not close enough to discuss things like her current hobbies.
Illidin, sounds like you got a decent IC. I would probably discuss the Divorce Busting approach to him so that he can help you along with that. Most IC's see pressure and pursuit, or reconnection, as the way to save a marriage. As we've told you, that is really not the way to work. This is why MC has such a low rate of success.
I think your IC isn't really trying to get you to see it is useless as much as trying to prepare you for the worst. We have a saying around here: Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. The LBSs that struggle the worst are the ones that cannot fathom a future where they are not with their WAS. It really is an unhealthy way to live. Think about it, we live in a world where you could lose your spouse to death through disease or accident, at any moment. If your entire happiness is wrapped up in one person, even in your spouse, that is unhealthy and dangerous. So more than likely your IC is tyring to get you differentiated to a degree what if your W follows through on what she has stated, which is very likely, so that you can be happy on the other side. And believe it or not, you will be.
Hi IIlidin, I'm glad you decided to turn to the DB board for support. Your story struck a close cord for me. One of my loved ones experienced much of the same treatment from her H. I want very much to see you come through this situation as a man who has a healthy self-esteem.
I have known men who were terrible for anyone to be around b/c of their negative mindset, and furthermore, they never had a kind word for their W. If he'll belittle in front of others, I tend to believe it doesn't get any better when they are home alone. I think when a man doesn't feel happy about himself, it puts his MR at risk. He may become more controlling, act out of insecurities and/or jealousy, and become a total jerk.....or worse. Unfortunately, it isn't always confined to his W or when he is home. Some people do it with coworkers, relatives,teammates, etc. It's as if the only way for him to look better, is to put the other person down. Another reason I believe can cause some men to interact with his W the way you've described, is due to the male role model he observed in a relationship during his early life. Maybe it was a father figure or another person the young Illidin watched and learned how to act when he is around his wife.
I feel your W either loved you very much, or else she, too, suffered from a very unhealthy sense of self worth. Perhaps she did not have the best role models either, IDK. Damage has occurred for both of you, however, I believe your M can be saved. It won't happen easily or quickly, but it
can heal. IMHO, the MR will not be able to progress very much, until the two individuals heal and grow as separate people. I have seen hundreds if H's arrive on the board and anxiously work to improve themselves. After all, don't we promote making 180's? Yes, but here's the problem with most newcomer H's. By the time he joins the DB board, he is in a situation where his W no longer feels attracted to him, and in most cases I've seen, she has lost respect for him. Therefore, he is pretty much wasting energy by trying to become
good enough for her to stay in the M. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. If there is any type of abuse, that spouse must stop it immediately and get into therapy. Conquering that problem, is needed whether he's married or not. It goes along with him growing into the person he wants to be. The interactions with his W is naturally better, due no abusive behavior, but it may not win her back. Do you see what I'm trying to say? Fix yourself as a man, before you try to be the H you think she wants. The M is broken and she is in no position to grade your work, due to her own stuff that's going on. Concentrate on the man, and when the man improves, it will naturally overflow into all of his relationships.
This behavior has gone on for a long time. She may name over a long list of things you need to improve as a H. I want you to listen to me carefully. She uses this list to self justify her current behavior. Even if you completely do a 180 degree on her list of complaints, it won't be enough to change how she feels about you as her H. A lot of W's even become angry that the H took so long to correct the things she wanted in him long ago. By now, her heart & mindset has changed, b/c she has opened the MR to include other men. You can't be thinking of yourself improving as a H and "winning her back", b/c it doesn't work that way. Here's how women are wired. They have to respect a man in order to feel those "in love" feelings. When they become man & wife, she has to respect as a man and as her H, b/c her level of desire for him is tied to the level of respect she holds.
So first, you need to focus on what you want to improve in yourself as a man. In other words, try to
not attach this personal growth process to whether or not your W will like the improvement. You must do it b/c it's what you want for you. It will not work if you are doing it just to persuade her feelings into staying with you. No matter the future of the MR......you will always live with yourself. You can't escape YOU, so work on the things YOU want to change. You are doing it for Illidin, b/c his negative mindset has dug a deep hole and has caused a lot of unhappiness for him......as well as the W. But here's the thing, Illidin, you can't
make another adult happy. Her happiness is her own responsibility. We will get to the interactions and what you need to do within the MR, but let me share this tidbit from the other side of street............currently with your W's involvement in these affairs, it is impossible for you to become "good enough" to
win her back. The issues are more complex now, due to her own inappropriate behavior (which is a nice way of wording it).
In the previous years, how this dynamic in your relationship......where you usually acted like a jerk, affect the intimacy? I'm talking back before any of her "stuff" began.
Roughly a month and 2 week ago by my approximation. My wife decided to join a sexy meme group on Facebook it was linked via another meme group shed been apart of for awhile. She says it was all just for fun. But a few days past and suddenly she decides she needs to make up new accounts and emails to rejoin with. Then starts to really get involved with the posts. Responding provocatively posting her own memes engaging everyone she can. A post goes out about joining the group chat which she does.
This is similar to my personal story. The bad news is that she's not going to stop. She's addicted. You could become perfect, and she wouldn't stop turning to the source that brings her this particular brand of excitement. It has nothing to with the man or
men, but rather with how they make her feel. Those guys aren't showing their true selves. They know how to play the game, and they tell her how beautiful & sexy she is. It's about the ego food she's fed. The good news is that it's not the end of the world and maybe it's not the end of your M. She will need to face consequences for her actions, and one day something will hit her hard enough to awaken her from the fantasy that surrounds her. We can talk more about that as we go.
When she has a period of time off we normally have a great time. She was very intimate in fact actively pursing me, which is very rare for her, it was great. I was very happy.
So, whenever she is away from her stressful job, she relaxes and is enjoyable with the family? Once she's back at work, the stress comes home with her? You said it's rare for her to actively pursue you and it made you very happy. Do you think it's due to her being away from the work related stress? Was this the first time in a long time she sexually pursued you? One more.........you said it made you happy, so did it affect your negative behavior and how you interacted with her in the following days.....or just until she did something you didn't like?
On the group during this week she is now in the chat and meeting more and more people she is having fun and ends up talking to 2 men more privately, sending photos and sexting. In 12 years my wife has never sent a dirty photo to me.
Okay, so you felt jealous b/c she was sexting and sending inappropriate photos to other men? That sounds like a reasonable human reaction. While we are on this particular subject, during the past 12-13 yrs, have either of you been guilty of inappropriate conduct with someone other than your significant other? Flirting, corresponding with members of the opposite sex, having contact with old girlfriends/boyfriends, excluded and/or secret "friendships"? And, BTW, do you participate in porn? Does she? If you respond to these questions, then I will expound on my reasons for asking.
Later that night she takes a shower but gets dressed in the bathroom. This is the moment that makes everything feel wrong.
That's your gut talking to you. I did the same thing. I stopped undressing in front of my H.
I ask her what know, and she tells me she doesn't want to be together. We fight fro awhile about why and she tells me the things I mentioned in the first block. She tells me that the affair has nothing to do with it.
She admitted to having an affair? With one guy, or more than one? Has it been a skin on skin affair?
We fight into the night, by fight I mean I beg.
Begged her to do what? Stop sexting, end the affair(s), don't leave the M, start sexting with you? These are very unattractive behaviors in a man/husband, Illidin. If it helps, you certainly are not the only H to respond that way. My hope is for you to be determined to learn how a strong, confident man should respond in situations such as this one. We're going to put a plan to paper, okay?
Eventually I get her to change her words and call it a break.
I think this is an example of you wearing her down. You won't let up until she finally has to agree to, at least, part of it. Begging and coercing are extremely unattractive behaviors. When you decide to map out a personal plan to create the new version of Illidin, I hope you will put add this one close to the top of the list.
We all have something we need to work on, and some us have a lot more or a lot harder behavior patterns to correct than maybe someone else. You've admitted you do have a need to control, so that's the first step......recognizing & admitting it. Question for you.....during the period you are trying to verbally wear her down so that she will give in to what you want, are you aware in the moment that you are trying to control another human adult?
But she also wont agree to any break boundaries she wont stop the affair etc. She says that maybe she can see us back together if I change.
Why was it so important that she call it a break? Are you talking like a separation? In your viewpoint at the time, who would benefit from this "break"?
My post is too long to address everything I see in your introductory post. I encourage you to read the thread on Boundaries. Boundaries are not ultimatums, and they aren't terms. You set boundaries to protect
you......not to control the other person. Boundaries are non-negotiable. It's not open for discussion, b/c it's your boundary. She has free choice to honor your boundary, or ignore it. If she chooses not to honor your boundary, then the ball is in your park. Your mistake was trying to make the boundary about her. You wanted to control her. You can only make boundaries for yourself that protect your feelings. If she dishonors your boundary, then there should be some type of consequence. Know what I mean? Read the thread, it explains better.
I'll have to continue on the next post. (See? You aren't the only one who writes long posts.)
Oh, before I forget to tell you, please don't start sharing with your W all this stuff you pick up on the board. I see LBH's do it, and they think it will have some impact on their spouse. It only tips her that he is getting information from some other source. You are the one here, not her. You are getting the tools to use.......not her. Don't show her your toolbox.
Continuing from my previous post.
Okay, I'm going to talk to you like I normally talk to LBH's. I know you are depressed, and I'm honestly not trying to make you feel worse, but if you don't get a real sense of what's actually going on here......you are going to feel much, much worse. So, take a deep breath, and try to see me as a sweet lady who is speaking to her adult son. Actually, I'd be much tougher with one of my sons, but you get my meaning. There are some sweet people here on the board, who are very talented in comforting people. I'm just not one of them. However, my passion to help save a M is fierce, and I will tell you what I've learned through personal experience, observation, and studying the subject of wayward wives for the past 13 yrs. If you don't want to hear what I have to say, just let me know and I won't have a problem with it.
Oh, and just for the record, my M was saved and we are still together. Upon arriving on the board, I identified myself as a W in MLC. I knew I was in
some type of crisis, but MLC wasn't the real issue. Anyway, I had someone to talk very straight to me, and now I am trying to pay it forward.
After that I feel like any of my attempts of showing change are mostly ignored, Didn't help that I couldn't stop asking about the group, our relationship, if she noticed things I was doing etc. 3 weeks go by of me continuing to try. During this time my wife agrees to one boundary, while she is still considering what I am working to show her,
She no longer cares about your attempts of showing change. She is not in a position to judge, observe, determine, grade.....or consider what you are working on or how well you're doing. She has changed and so have her feelings about you. The old W is gone, and this one is a whole different breed. Please don't ever ask again if she has noticed, b/c it could draw her disgust. So far, I've not read where she shows her contempt for you, but I'm still on your first post. I'm just warning you, her feelings have changed. You need to immediately stop this type of behavior where you are trying to get good enough for the approval of a cheater. Your W is displaying wayward conduct, and you are making matters worse by appointing her to judge your "attempts of showing change". Remove yourself from the
contest of showing her your attempts, and look to another source that will bring permanent growth and joy for life. We can point you in the general direction, but it's up to you to actually do the leg work.
BTW, what
was the boundary you keep mentioning?
I keep trying and come last friday I'm having a hard time know that not only has a month now passed since she joined and everyday she is on the group is building closer bonds, when I found it it had been about 2 weeks in only. I confront her with how she feels in a more serious way than I have been. She says that the things I have been doing are great but also that doesn't believe their totally genuine. Even if they are then why now, why not the million other times she asked. Also its not really changing how shes done with me.
I agree with her. The only reason you are "attempting to show change" is to win her away from the app group. When a spouse fears losing the other one, then everything they do is fear based. How long do you think you could last under that kind of emotional pressure? If you aren't educated in how to go about this, then you are spinning your wheels. Currently, I see a LBH who is operating from his emotions. She's doing the same thing, operating from her emotions. If she were to come back now, you'd stop doing the work.......b/c you don't have positive motivation, and don't have a working plan, and you're grasping at straws to please a wayward W........which never works out for the LBH.
You keep referring to how you are
trying, but you haven't actually said what it is. Doesn't matter, b/c your old controlling ways override everything else. Can you see it? You might go several days of "trying", and it would only take two seconds of your old behavior to ruin everything you tried to achieve. You have got to change your way of thinking about all of this. DBing is not passive, surrender your b@lls and become a door mat type of approach to saving a M that has a wayward spouse in an A, or multiple affairs. It takes courage, especially if the DBer is a man, b/c the only thing a wayward wife respects is
strength. Therefore, everything you do or say needs to be from that view. Strength has nothing to do with controlling her. It has nothing to do with bullying type of behavior or emotional pressuring her. Is there some man you highly admire b/c he knows how to command (not demand) respect from others? He doesn't tolerate cr@p behavior......like someone showing him disrespect, lying to him, double crossing him, etc. He doesn't let someone push him around, and he certainly doesn't beg a woman to stay with him or give him a chance to try harder. He doesn't chase women.......he attracts them. Do you know anyone like this man?
A man should conduct himself in a way that reflects his moral integrity, values, honor, high standards, etc. These provide him a code of conduct for how he lives his life. A man needs to know what he stands
for......and why. This helps him to know where he draws the line (boundaries) in love relationships, business deals, friendships, the working environment, etc. His self worth doesn't rely on someone else's feelings about him. A man such as this is self confident, and women can sense his strength........which they admire.
Since the beginning she has told me still cares for me and wants to be friends.
Let me interpret what she told you. If you don't have the stomach for it.......then look away, b/c I'm going to be very blunt with you. She has no romantic/sexual love for you, currently. That time she was hot for sex and pursuing you? It wasn't you that put her in the mood, and I doubt it was b/c she was off work........but rather, it was the other guys in the group. Now maybe that doesn't matter with you, just as long as you got the benefit of sex......I'm just telling you how she feels about you. And when she says she
cares for you and wants to be friends......she means
she feels like you are her brother. I haven't met a guy yet who wants a woman to think of him as a brother. The good news is that can change when she stops engaging in this other stuff and starts respecting you. That's going to take a little time, but I just want to assure you that once she ends this lifestyle and starts doing the work, her feelings can catch up.
She wants to live here while we sort out our new lives. It is honestly best for both of us financially. She discussed moving out of our bedroom but I haven't allowed it Im just not ready to sleep alone..
You haven't
allowed it? Oh, so now you are being the tough guy by saying what you won't allow? But you
allow her to engage with a group of cheaters. Your tough talk is slaughtered when you go on to say that you are just not ready to sleep alone.
So let's talk like adults here. There is no "break" or "separation", b/c you are
sleeping together. And why is the betrayed H sleeping with his betrayer? B/c the betrayed H isn't ready to sleep alone. Do you know how pathetic that sounds? You sound as if you have some serious problems that have nothing to do with your MR. I don't know what happened in your past, but this has FEAR written all over it. Your excuses of how it is best for both of you to remain together in the house... is as phony as a three dollar bill, so stamp FEAR on it. She will not change, and nothing will be sorted as long as she gets all the benefits of being M to you, without the responsibilities. Think about it.
I hope you will get into therapy. I'm not being snide, I really want you to get help b/c there is a reason you treated her so badly for years, and after discovering her activity on an app that encourages infidelity, you have tried every way you could to excuse it away or give it a label that you can with, even convincing yourself that if she was on a "break" that made you feel better. Come on! She's a M woman, and there is no such thing as taking a break from marriage! An affair is not called a break........it's called cheating. I'll tell you what I was told when I came on board. Every time I tried to pass put the blame on my H, I was told he wasn't responsible for my affair, and that it would have been more decent of me to divorce him, and then find someone else. But I didn't. Instead, I did just like your W is doing! You cannot coddle a wayward wife. You can't snuggle up with her at night, and think she's going to stop returning to the drug of her choice. The only thing I've seen successfully work in WW cases, is when the H applies tough love. IDK, you may not have what it takes, but I want to believe with some help, you can get there. We can't tell you everything in the first few posts. So, you have to think about it like be schooled. Don't act when you don't know what to do. You need to learn some things, then develop a plan.
Every morning she talks with me while getting ready as if everything is fine. We have dinner together, we make decisions about groceries, sometimes even shop together. We spend at least a couple hours each night watching tv and talking. I am still regularly bringing conversations back to us as I don't know what else to talk about. I remind her that even though I'm depressed I am not being negative anymore. That my mind is fully focused on a positive outcome and I want to prove that to her.
This is her benefiting from the M.
I am not allowed to really ask her much about anything other than school, work and what we are doing together. She rarely opens up about anything on her own.
Over the last month she slowly stopped the act. She wont wear a wedding ring at all anymore regardless if we are going to see my or her family. Neither have been told yet. She has finally stopped telling me she loves me when she leaves a literal 12 year habit that has never been skipped before. She never mentions us on her own. So far only 1 friend of hers has been told no one else knows. The group was told she was separated but before she joined, so no hard feelings to anyone for being a home wreaker. A couple days ago she added one of the group members to her regular facebook with all our family. She has become very close to this girl and tells me even if we got back together she would want to fight to keep that friendship.
This is her without the responsibilities. Any questions?
Today I plan to start making phone calls to find a IC.
Oh, thank goodness! Now listen, if you don't feel like it's a right fit, find another IC. Okay?
I think that's a good place to stop.
Illidin, you hit the lotto! Feel very lucky to have Sandi take an interest in your sitch. She is pure gold! Her insight and advice, and 2x4s helped me immensely. Take notes, she's amazing!
In the previous years, how this dynamic in your relationship......where you usually acted like a jerk, affect the intimacy? I'm talking back before any of her "stuff" began.
I believe so. She was always a little shy about things. I mean we were both our firsts so we leaned and grew together. As teenagers yeah we did some crazy things albeit very tame kink whys. But you know wherever you could be alone before parents came back. When we moved in the first time things were again more intimate but we had been together 5 plus years by a number of the regular problems that led us to here were set in place by then. Yes she says that she felt like she had less self esteem by me and that made it harder for her to be interested. That I didn't compliment enough, that she usually had to ask how she looked and even then I wouldn't actually look just respond ( this is true btw it wasn't me trying to be mean Id be busy or tired and just wouldn't look just say she looked good. It wasn't a lie I knew with all my heart she looked good, she always looked good.) I have never really been into social media so i never responded to her posts about her or us or told her beautiful she was on there. ( I think this was a big problem because that was really the only way she interacted with a lot of people she knew especially her family who all lived far away. So essentially it was impossible for me to interact with or even just for her to get to feel like everyone was seeing how much I thought of her.) This stretched out locally too. i never did things like send flowers to her work or If I did bring a gift I would have her come out to me. i was embarrassed, I didn't like to put myself out there in front of others. i really regret these things now. Im sure it made her feel like I was ashamed or something.) Even worse I would give her hard time about never doing anything special for us in the bedroom. we had a whole closet of lingere that half of which Id never seen her wear. Originally I would remind her that our anniversary was coming or my birthday but it was very common for to do nothing at all let alone something unique. Overtime I would get more aggressive with my request, she would say she didn't remember about the cloths alot, so I would start reminding her alot a week before hand. Pull stuff out so she saw it. If she asked what I wanted for my birthday I would tell her that I wanted her. I wasn't joking though I was very serious if she was wanted to put a bow on or something it would absolutely make my day. But that made it worse because I had built up expectation which then got completely shattered. My pressuring probably didn't make her feel good about doing it either. Still gets worse though. When she did finally do it, I responded badly sometimes. Not that I wasn't happy but I was shocked by it. I would literally not know how to act and my negative mindset would run wild. Usually she didn't look very happy or confidant when she did it. If she had I probably wouldn't have gone down the rabbit hole in mind. But because she looked kinda uncomfortably I would start to feel bad. I wanted this yes but I didn't actually want to force her and now I would feel like I made her do something that made me feel bad it created a strange dynamic at the moment. That reaction of course hurt her. Once I got past it and embraced her things normally got much better in the moment but Im sure those initial reactions stuck with her. sometimes I would even say something stupid on accident like she was acting weird when she was was being aggressive towards me because I was so not use to it.
So, whenever she is away from her stressful job, she relaxes and is enjoyable with the family? Once she's back at work, the stress comes home with her? You said it's rare for her to actively pursue you and it made you very happy. Do you think it's due to her being away from the work related stress? Was this the first time in a long time she sexually pursued you? One more.........you said it made you happy, so did it affect your negative behavior and how you interacted with her in the following days.....or just until she did something you didn't like?
Yes we have a much better time when shes off work. She has much more energy, wants to do things with me in and outside the house. Where normally she wants to sit in her pajamas and watch tv all day just unwind as she put it. She only has 2 days off to do so she would say. If I wanted to get out even to just go to the bank and store she usually wouldn't come unless I begged her. Generally speaking any time she has a long period of time off she in more interested in sex. As she always said she didn't feel as run down and so she was in more in the mood. That really has been a true statement for as long as I can remember. The trade off to this is if were on vacation and doing some stuff all day every day she is tired and normally not as interested. Kind of a thorn in my side as vacations are supposed to be a good chance to go a little wild and not have to worry about it in my mind. She last more openly pursued me about a month before this. That was the average timeline about once a month she would get more active. That was generally the amount of time we had sex on average as well. Over the last couple years after an argument about my needs. She had become more welcoming to my initiations but her truly being completely invested was about once a month on average. Yes it made me more happy and helped me calm down from all my worry and stress about the stay at home order. I spent alot of time with her just watching tv witch I had stopped doing as much recently. We played cards and games which we haven't don't in few months. All and all I felt I was in good place that week. Was a perfect I doubt it. Did I probably say things or ignore things without realizing it I'm sure but again I was working in myself I didn't believe for one second everything could be different instantly. We ordered a new faucet for the house which I tried to talk myself out of for money reasons for a second but renewed my convictions telling myself I was being stupid and bought it. Just a silly thing we didn't need but both thought was cool and wanted to invest in our home for.
While we are on this particular subject, during the past 12-13 yrs, have either of you been guilty of inappropriate conduct with someone other than your significant other? Flirting, corresponding with members of the opposite sex, having contact with old girlfriends/boyfriends, excluded and/or secret "friendships"? And, BTW, do you participate in porn? Does she? If you respond to these questions, then I will expound on my reasons for asking.
I have never done any of those things. As already stated I never had many friends. No ex girlfriends of which there were hardly any every came back into our lives. I told her just about everything I did every day just because I enjoyed to talk to her about it. To my knowledge it was never really an issue with her either. She has always been kinda of a flirt when shes "being nice" in my opinion. But I learned to accept that she didn't do it on purpose. She was hit on occasionally from it and always shot them down and told me about it. Of course there could be things I don't know but there was never a reason to think that. Yes I have always participated in porn, her not so much. I tried to involve her in it when we first started living together. She was always kinda luke warm to it unless the genre really appeared to her. Mostly she liked things we could actually watch like the parodies. It did put her in the mood but wasn't something she requested hardly ever. For me it was originally about the women after being together with my wife it was about the situations. They helped me create a fantasy or better experience a kink that my wife wasn't ready for or we couldn't fulfill with our equipment. But almost every time I would play them but then only finish with my wife in the role in my head.
She admitted to having an affair? With one guy, or more than one? Has it been a skin on skin affair?
With 2 guys I had only seen 1 before confronting. No not skin on skin. As far as i know there is nothing physical even now. I was told that she wasn't involved with those guys anymore but that she was involved with some new guys. That was about 2 weeks ago she won't even kinda discuss that info anymore.
Begged her to do what? Stop sexting, end the affair(s), don't leave the M, start sexting with you? These are very unattractive behaviors in a man/husband, Illidin. If it helps, you certainly are not the only H to respond that way. My hope is for you to be determined to learn how a strong, confident man should respond in situations such as this one. We're going to put a plan to paper, okay?
Yes all of those things. Mainly to fight for us and give a chance to at least withstand this last battle using a any means available.
I think this is an example of you wearing her down. You won't let up until she finally has to agree to, at least, part of it. Begging and coercing are extremely unattractive behaviors. When you decide to map out a personal plan to create the new version of Illidin, I hope you will put add this one close to the top of the list.
We all have something we need to work on, and some us have a lot more or a lot harder behavior patterns to correct than maybe someone else. You've admitted you do have a need to control, so that's the first step......recognizing & admitting it. Question for you.....during the period you are trying to verbally wear her down so that she will give in to what you want, are you aware in the moment that you are trying to control another human adult?
No I wouldn't say I ever was. Usually I was just trying to get my feelings across and I guess I thought they were being ignored or misunderstood based on answers I would receive back. So I would rephrase and restate them hoping that if she understood me better that it would have her think about the situation more logically. That has always been a big thing with most of our fights she doesn't feel like something should matter because it will be fun or whatever and I fear the possible outcomes from a logical standpoint. Usually money or risk. Obviously in this case it was just my world crumbling around me and the more she looked at me with her certain and knowing conviction to the end the more insane I felt. I've never in my whole life seen her look so sure about anything. In this particular case I guess I was kinda aware. If it stopped everything from ending it didn't really matter at the time.
Why was it so important that she call it a break? Are you talking like a separation? In your viewpoint at the time, who would benefit from this "break"?
She was adamant about the affair not mattering it could end right then if she wanted something different. Sure that is likely not true. She was certain she didn't want to hurt anymore and she wanted be a her own person who didn't have to worry about my feelings in regards to her choices. That she wanted to be selfish. If I really stifled her freedom since she was 13 then I understood her feelings. She didn't feel like a person she had created. In that scenario an agreed break for a few months where she could find her own self contained happiness and self identity as long as boundaries and goals to reconnect as more independent people existed and were maintained. I honestly think that could have helped us in the long run. We both needed to be able to be less dependent on each other. I've thought that for awhile and have been trying to encourage her to make friends and stop being as overbearing since we bought the house basically. She honestly has more friends now than she did before we moved out of her mothers. I have also been working on that in my own way but much less successfully, Over the last year I also started to work really hard on my negative tendencies. I'll admit it was a slow process I saw a lot of change in myself on that front. Unfortunately she didn't see any of it and was also not paying attention to anything for most of that year anyway. so what i perceived as less fights and progress from me working on myself it was actually distancing she was creating. So basically a real structured break where she stopped cheating and actually wanted that would be a better almost last resort tactic to work on our marriage then just that it is over. Were not doing counselling, or breaks just 1 week we love each other next week were over.
[quoteBTW, what
was the boundary you keep mentioning?[/quote]
In this case it was that she would keep her cloths on online for now. I mentioned that it put me in a state of euphoria that night which I was then disgusted by the next morning.
Is there some man you highly admire b/c he knows how to command (not demand) respect from others? He doesn't tolerate cr@p behavior......like someone showing him disrespect, lying to him, double crossing him, etc. He doesn't let someone push him around, and he certainly doesn't beg a woman to stay with him or give him a chance to try harder. He doesn't chase women.......he attracts them. Do you know anyone like this man?
Nope can't say I ever have or met someone like that. That I know of.
The only thing I've seen successfully work in WW cases, is when the H applies tough love.
Ive seen you say this a lot to people but I will admit Im never sure what you mean by it. When I read you stitch you made of a point of saying your husband gave you all the space you needed. and it took a long time for you to stop what you were doing, You considered leaving but ultimately you feared your financial security. At the end of day you stayed in the same home as your husband and children. Maybe I misunderstood it or misread though. But while we would both be worse off my wife doesn't fear her financial stability. She has a place she could go although its not ideal. She has a lot of drive and motivation to make herself happy and better. Grudges also run in a her family. Maybe its just fear maybe I need to man up as you say but I feel pretty certain if I just kicked her out she would just hold a grudge, Id probably lose any chance to reconcile and I would turn what could be amicably divorce into a complete fight through the courts. Especially because she would then be in close contact with her mother all the time whose favorite pastime is making a living on her back at the expense of ex husbands and boyfriends.
This is her benefiting from the M.
I can understand this but again what advice should I take here.
On my home front things still continue to be very difficult and trying. Watched my wife pack and leave for the weekend yesterday. Shes going to Vegas to see our god son. Only a handful of times have I had to watch her leave on her own for anything its always lonely and sad. But this is unlike anything I've ever felt before. A couple months ago we would have been excitedly packing together for a chance to get away for a few days. I haven't seen my god son in 2 years, at least she will finally. Broke down again and started trying to talk about us, obviously never a good idea and just hurt me more.
On top of the general issue here I am also having a panic attack about the whole thing. What if she gets sick, will she make the drive okay. I have really bad motion sickness so I drive everywhere always. She has very little experience on the freeways and what not and now she is doing a 4 hour drive to vegas at night. I know she can do it but still scares me. So then I go to get the mail and see she has her pills in there. I know she was almost out and was needing to get gas so I call her to see if I should bring them before she hits the road. Im opening the mail when I notice she has also refilled her birth control. We stopped that over 3 months ago. She has been on it since she was 14 it was a regular fight for years that she wanted to stop which we agreed to this year. I would take over the responsibility of us not getting pregnant. Again this was apart of me trying to change my control this year is was complete nonsense that I didn't respect her health and wishes all those years. Because I feared the failure rate of condoms and didn't like the experience as much. I also had been giving serious though about abandoning my ling time fear about being ready to have kids I didn't want to wait anymore to have the family my wife and I always talked about. So naturally I can't keep my mouth shut by it and she says she always orders them because its better ti have them now while she can. Also she planning on going back on them because they regulate her and she doesn't want to get pregnant now. Again can't control myself so you want to or are having sex. she says no not right now but maybe she will if it comes up. I can probably read into this that there is someone closer she is speaking with now and that is likely true but I'm trying not to for my own health.
Spoke to my therapist again this day right after she started packing on lunch. This is again the main thing I discuss. I also talk about how I got in contact with an old friend. Really the only real friend I ever had. He has a lot of things going on these day so not sure how healthy it is right now. We were friends because we both understood each others way of thinking so yeah. I told my therapist how we were talking about how I felt that no liked me and he said nonsense your a good guy. So I said well I spent a lot of time with people you were friends with and never heard from with out you. He thought about said yeah all my friends hated you. They didn't like you being around. Ive tried to reach out to some people I use to know from school and have had some of the same responses that we weren't friends and they never really liked me around. So my therapist was taken back by that one. Just asked me how I felt about it I told him thats how its always been as long as I remember so it hurts but not terrible. I have to say Im hopeful for these sessions but Ive never really understand how this is supposed to work should be giving me advise on how to make changes or is just about talking out my problems so I see them. Its only the second session so I'm sure there is a process but I just dont know.
I was bad after everything really bad. I differently didn't want to be alone in my house. Went to my sisters for the rest of the night. Even practically falling asleep on the road back wasn't enough to push away the loneliness though that night. Took awhile to sleep and then of course I didn't want to be awake so I slept until noon. I never do that I hate feeling like I missed a day. Honestly though I dont care about any day right now. Being her alone [censored].
Feeling very lonely. Yesterday went okay overall I guess. Tried to talk to some people. Writing on here responding took awhile so that was a nice distraction. Hardly ate but managed one meal at least. By the end of the day I was actually kinda calm. Even enjoyed a little bit of TV. Sleeping proved to be a little more difficult than I thought though.
Today has been completely opposite though. Woke up in a panic attack. My nightmares have been all over the place recently. I don't remember anything today but maybe something bad in my sleep, maybe just a renewed sense of longing waking up alone I'm not sure. That panic has been ruling my day no joy and my mind is spiraling again. Yesterday my wife text me a little about the how family was doing. maybe that's what calmed yesterday. Today I just wanted to be cordial and said good morning. She never even read it for hours. In the panic I sent more a couple other random small talk texts. Eventually she said very curtly that she was spending time with family and I knew I was being bad. Finally got focused for a moment started some laundry, did dishes, washed the cat boxes, vaccumed, took a shower. Still am on edge. But trying to find focus.
Hugs!!!! I can't offer much else... I get the nightmares. Had one the other day my hair was falling out in large clumps... WHOA.
Its hard. But, it will get easier. Put the phone down... don't feel terrible about it. We all do it. But, for now put it down.
Thanks kitcat I appreciate the support.
Doing a little better today. Will see where the day takes me.
Work says we are transitioning back to regular schedule over the next couple weeks. It's been really rough any time I was called in recently. So not looking forward to it but hopefully it will end up being a silver lining.
I had a ton of nightmares during my sitch. Most of them involved my W sleeping with other guys, unapologetically. Just right in my face, flaunting it. I'd wake up in a panic.
I do have to say that one nice thing is waking up and realizing that it was all just a bad dream.
It's funny part of me wishes me dreams were like that. Maybe I'd start to hate for the affairs and stop caring but probably not. My dreams are always self damaging. Even before the BD I noticed I have more if them. Watching my wife die in various ways unable to save her because I was weak, slow, etc. Tonight it was simply I was Disneyland and was trying to get to her. I had ended up one place and she was with her family somewhere else. I moved like a snail and it work if was so exhausting to move at the pace. I could never make it to her. Anytime I got to where she last told me to come she was gone. I guess I feel like like I'll never be able to catch my wife again right now.
I wasn't going to say anything about it, but it really bothers me about that website claiming Christian therapy........and that you had been set up with an IC with/through that religious organization. You said you weren't religious, but that you didn't mind. Well, I took a look at the site. It is about religion, alright, but it's
Islam, not Christian.
I appreciate you taking the time to write more about your MR. I am seldom at a loss for words, but when you describe yourself, it leaves me pretty close to it. (As you'll see, I overcame it.) Actually, I am filled with many, many questions. I don't expect you to answer them, if you'd rather not, but there seems so many holes in your story, that it's hard to understand. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just don't understand how you apparently know what you did wrong in your MR........but did you know it at that time, or did it simply dawn on you when your W started acting like Girls Gone Wild? It's one thing for a man to not know how to treat his W, and it's quite another thing for him to know-- but chooses not to treat her well. You have said things that made me wonder if you were never educated in what women need emotionally, and to feel loved by her H. You talked about your control issues, but all those behaviors didn't come from a need to control. Some of your actions said you simply didn't care enough to put forth an ounce of energy to make your W feel cherished, to feel beautiful, or to show you were proud of her. Look, most men need a little education when it comes to understanding women's needs. People aren't born knowing this stuff.
What does a little boy experience in his life that leads to complete negativity about everything around him? What happened in your childhood to cause so much insecurity, and form this man who says he doesn't know how to act or respond to things that most of people would consider a natural human response? Nobody can tell you why you didn't have any friends? What made you different, Illidin?
Quote
The only thing I've seen successfully work in WW cases, is when the H applies tough love.
Ive seen you say this a lot to people but I will admit Im never sure what you mean by it.
Ever thought about looking it up? I didn't invent the term.
When I read you stitch you made of a point of saying your husband gave you all the space you needed. and it took a long time for you to stop what you were doing, You considered leaving but ultimately you feared your financial security. At the end of day you stayed in the same home as your husband and children. Maybe I misunderstood it or misread though.
Oh goodness! You summed it up pretty well, with only a few words.
My story is way too long to read. Frankly, I don't think reading my old story could be very helpful. I'd much rather you read what I learned........and what I've continued to learn the past 13 yrs. When I arrived on the board, I was wayward and conducting myself in shameful ways. I was trying to make up my mind to stay or leave. (Let me inject this: I may be wrong, but the way you said that part in the quote, I felt like you were trying to throw that up to me about my H. As if to say, your H didn't get tough, and it took a long time, and you stayed with him.) It's important that you understand that
it wasn't my H who was here getting the tools to save the M. You can't look at him as an example of what you need to do. Yes, he eventually backed off and gave me space (which means he stopped applying emotional pressure)........and yes, I stayed with him, but it wasn't b/c he had the sure fire secret to winning back a WW! Over the years, I've had several LBH's ask what my H did to get me to change my mind and stay in the M. They wanted to read my sitch to see how he won me back. Truth is, he was just about as clueless as most other LBH's. He was a kind, good man.....but clueless. But, listen to what I'm saying........he wasn't the one here.
I was.I'm not sure what you mean by it taking a long time to stop what I was doing. I mean, I don't know how much time period you are referring to, but I'll say that any time spent living like that, is too much. I really can't remember right now how long I was messaging other guys, and being a very naughty girl. Less than six months, I'd guess, but not sure. ( I was pretty fogged out of my mind.) I was in an A about nine months. I don't know if that's what you meant. Actually, it was what I had to go through, after the A, that took a long time........the withdrawals, healing, forgiving, etc.
The board occasionally has a wayward spouse to join, but not often. So, I had quite a few people who were interested in hearing from the other side of the street, so to speak. They thought maybe I could enlighten them about their own W. It wasn't just one-sided, b/c I have learned a lot from the LBH's, that I never learned from my own H. They would share thoughts they had about why their W felt & did what she did. Most of the time, they were way off base and didn't know much about the mindset of a WW, but we learned from each other. I really dug in and started reading everything I could find on WW's. Anyway, I wanted to tell you that the spouse who shows up here, is the one who gets the information on what they need to do about saving their MR. You can't teach someone who isn't here. See what I mean? It didn't have anything to do with what my H did. It had to do with me. I had to fix myself before I could fix my MR........and that took a considerable amount of time. We don't ever reach the point that we can stop working on our MR, if we want a good one. Now, before you ask about getting your WW to come join the board or read the book......no! Just.....don't.
So..........aren't you glad I was lost for words?
I wasn't going to say anything about it, but it really bothers me about that website claiming Christian therapy........and that you had been set up with an IC with/through that religious organization. You said you weren't religious, but that you didn't mind. Well, I took a look at the site. It is about religion, alright, but it's Islam, not Christian.
I dont know much about this. Maybe I'll try to take another look. It was just start of the registration process. Beyond that I've had nothing to do with that site I just meet with therapist via his office. So far hes been fine, he mentioned some religion at the start and when I shot him down it hasn't come up again. Still don't know how the process works I'd say but I'm hoping we can start working on strategies to work on my problems soon. If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate. Are you giving like homework, coping mechanisms, things to actually apply to life to help you change habits or is it just all self realization?
I appreciate you taking the time to write more about your MR. I am seldom at a loss for words, but when you describe yourself, it leaves me pretty close to it. (As you'll see, I overcame it.) Actually, I am filled with many, many questions.
Ask as many questions as you like and I will try to answer them if you think it will help, even its just to help me perosnally.
I don't expect you to answer them, if you'd rather not, but there seems so many holes in your story, that it's hard to understand. I'm not saying I don't believe you. I just don't understand how you apparently know what you did wrong in your MR........but did you know it at that time, or did it simply dawn on you when your W started acting like Girls Gone Wild? It's one thing for a man to not know how to treat his W, and it's quite another thing for him to know-- but chooses not to treat her well. You have said things that made me wonder if you were never educated in what women need emotionally, and to feel loved by her H. You talked about your control issues, but all those behaviors didn't come from a need to control. Some of your actions said you simply didn't care enough to put forth an ounce of energy to make your W feel cherished, to feel beautiful, or to show you were proud of her. Look, most men need a little education when it comes to understanding women's needs. People aren't born knowing this stuff.
I'm not sure what holes in particular your talking about but I have tried to be as honest as possible at least from my perspective. Obviously at lot of this is in retrospect so I may remember every exact detail.
Do I feel like simply ignored my wife's wishes? No I don't think I ever did that. Sometimes I would work on changing things and then when things didn't change cause changes in her they would revert perhaps. Were there lots of little things that was brought up in passing that I forgot or didn't try hard enough to change, probably. Was it ever malicious? No I never wanted her to hurt. If I failed at one aspect because of insecurities that doesn't mean I didn't try other ways. Like I said I didn't take the time to walk into her job to give her things, every now and again I did but mostly I didn't. I did always hold her hand out in public, I talked about her with everyone I ever met, (Something I know for a fact she didn't do about me. Sometimes I met people she worked with for months who didn't know about me. Probably should have been a red flag.) I was always affectionate with her, I always was trying to talk to her, to do things she wanted, to take her out. I bought gifts, I went out of my way to get things she wanted even in the middle of night and during storms. I filled her car with gas every week before she could even think about it. I encouraged her in every thing she tried to do but admittedly I went about it the wrong way a lot of times. I know what she is capable of and I pressured her to do live up to that. When I should of just trusted her.
Were there somethings that she disliked that I felt was core part of my being that until very recently I didn't really work on? Things like the fact that I have very limited tonal range. It rarely changes but that doesn't mean I'm not happy or excited. My wife constantly said she couldn't feel those things from me most of the time. And me telling her was never good enough. I still dont really know how to work on that, people who like or tolerate me say I'm very stoic and it took a long to learn how to not feel like I was mad or unhappy even when I was having happy conversations. My new boss at our 3 month eval said he thought he was concerned he made a huge mistake hiring me that it took over a month a half for me to warm up at all and even then it took longer for the team to get use to how I acted. He seriously considered letting me go because they weren't sure what to make of me. Thats all in the past now and we get along fine. Thats more of a extreme example but things like my fear and negativity I also felt for a long time was just the way I was and I couldn't really change it. It was selfish but it use to really depress me that she couldn't understand me enough to love me and not a version of me. Now I realize that isn't true and its something I can change my habits on.
You asked if anyone ever taught me about how to treat a women how to cherish them? I dont fully understand this, do you mean did someone actually sit down and talk to me? No, is that something people do with their sons? I thought people just learned those things over time through trial and error. I didn't date many people before my wife. About 3 and I left 2 of them because I didn't feel we were close enough to live a life together. 1 left me and whoo boy that is a story.
What does a little boy experience in his life that leads to complete negativity about everything around him? What happened in your childhood to cause so much insecurity, and form this man who says he doesn't know how to act or respond to things that most of people would consider a natural human response? Nobody can tell you why you didn't have any friends? What made you different, Illidin?
I dont really know, I definitely had a childhood that I wouldn't want others to have. I could explain it but I don't know if this is the place for that. There are mental health issues that run through my family especially bipolar disorders. But so far I don't believe I have a psychosis yet. "man who says he doesn't know how to act or respond to things that most of people would consider a natural human response?" This really resonates with me. I have heard my wife say I dont think like normal people a million times. I dont know why that is. I never entirely even understood it. I view the world very logically and from and I guess my viewpoint is wrong. I realize that now even more than before as people here kinda treat me like a unique case, at least I feel that way. Unfortunately I did always view it as a positive, I took pride in the fact that social norms didn't control me. That ive never really felt a lot pressure to do things I don't want to do because other people feelings towards me don't really affect me that strongly. Likely old comping mechanisms. Recently though I just want to feel normal. Now more than ever as it has cost something I can't really replace. I mean even if I changed and found a new life and a new family, even if I was happier in that regard then now. I still lost someone so very important to me. I think that will haunt me forever.
Oh goodness! You summed it up pretty well, with only a few words.
My story is way too long to read. Frankly, I don't think reading my old story could be very helpful. I'd much rather you read what I learned........and what I've continued to learn the past 13 yrs. When I arrived on the board, I was wayward and conducting myself in shameful ways. I was trying to make up my mind to stay or leave. (Let me inject this: I may be wrong, but the way you said that part in the quote, I felt like you were trying to throw that up to me about my H. As if to say, your H didn't get tough, and it took a long time, and you stayed with him.) It's important that you understand that
it wasn't my H who was here getting the tools to save the M. You can't look at him as an example of what you need to do. Yes, he eventually backed off and gave me space (which means he stopped applying emotional pressure)........and yes, I stayed with him, but it wasn't b/c he had the sure fire secret to winning back a WW! Over the years, I've had several LBH's ask what my H did to get me to change my mind and stay in the M. They wanted to read my sitch to see how he won me back. Truth is, he was just about as clueless as most other LBH's. He was a kind, good man.....but clueless. But, listen to what I'm saying........he wasn't the one here.
I was. I meant no disrespect, I'm not sure if you felt I kinda understood or your being sarcastic in the first line. But I think maybe I understand better now. Your husband basically got lucky. That you found your own path back and the tough love you got essential came from this forum. I get that your years here have really pointed to tough love being what helps people cheating hit bottom and yes I can look it up. But I am here for support and help, you have no obligation to answer, but you have some understanding my life right now. I would love to hear what you would do in regards to tough love. Im not asking to be told what to do just what you think might have worked best for you in my situation. I will take anything you say as advice not instruction.
Illidin, a lot of the tough love stuff for a WW is common sense.
For instance, moving her out of the MBR (which I only advocate in the case of a physical affair). Or asking her to leave the house (most places you can only ask, you cannot make due to laws).
Certainly being a little firmer with detachment. Not tolerating disrespect, "I refuse to engage with you if you treat me like this" then walking away or hanging up, or ignoring her texts.
Certainly, leaving your house, giving her the MBR, begging, pleading, etc. are not tough love actions.
So, in waiting for sandi's follow-up, why don't you tell us what you think tough love would look like for a LBH with a WW?
If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate.
Hi Illidin,
Many therapists are trained in a few therapeutic approaches, just as massage therapists may be trained in Swedish or Deep Tissue. It's partly about your needs. I alternated between two modes with my therapist--
(1) Emotional Resilience - When I felt overwhelmed, I'd share my thoughts and feelings. She'd listen and help me see patterns triggering me or making me happy, raise options I hadn't considered, help me see the negatives and positives, slow down my decision-making. She'd never answer, "What choice should I make?"
(2) Life Progress - When I wasn't overwhelmed I'd work towards tangible progress in several areas of my life. In this role she was more assertive, checking in on areas I didn't mention, proposing solutions.
Approach #1 was more appropriate when my brain spun through thoughts and I couldn't take key actions the logical side of my brain identified as best. We focused on Approach #2 more as that dropped away.
The things that make obvious sense to me moving her out of the bedroom (which I haven't decided on yet. If it comes up again I won't stop as before.) Asking her to leave. I've already stated that I think this is not beneficial to me short or long term. Cutting her off finaincly. This actual isn't an option as there isn't a situation where I support her any more then she supports me. The bills are split and the extra I bring in goes to emergency accounts and vacation funds. I reviewed the budget where she would pay for her share and me mine and she would have even more money to herself as I wouldn't expect her to pay half of my car payment anymore. You have to understand that our budget has been based on a combined income not singular incomes our entire lives. We didn't live or work independently ever. I have already been working on accepting this and moving past some of my grief which I believe has to be the first step to detachment. I rarely even in our marriage tolerated complete disrespect as you mentioned but it hasn't been any issue at this time anyway. She is a complete joy to be around all the time unless I pursue and push her buttons. Then she simply withdraws from any conversation no mean words or anger. I could work on ignoring her text some assuming she ever sends me one that isn't just a typical courtesy text of I'm not coming back for dinner or I've arrived at my destination safely. I'm really not sure what else tough love could be I don't really believe it's disrespect so I can't just be mean or go around informing everyone about the affair so she can feel slut shamed or something. It already been made pretty clear I should keep the entire sitch as quiet as possible if I want to hope for reconcile.
If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate.
Hi Illidin,
Many therapists are trained in a few therapeutic approaches, just as massage therapists may be trained in Swedish or Deep Tissue. It's partly about your needs. I alternated between two modes with my therapist--
(1) Emotional Resilience - When I felt overwhelmed, I'd share my thoughts and feelings. She'd listen and help me see patterns triggering me or making me happy, raise options I hadn't considered, help me see the negatives and positives, slow down my decision-making. She'd never answer, "What choice should I make?"
(2) Life Progress - When I wasn't overwhelmed I'd work towards tangible progress in several areas of my life. In this role she was more assertive, checking in on areas I didn't mention, proposing solutions.
Approach #1 was more appropriate when my brain spun through thoughts and I couldn't take key actions the logical side of my brain identified as best. We focused on Approach #2 more as that dropped away.
Thanks CW I really appreciate the insight. I will admit I was always very sceptical of this treatment in general. So im trying to fully understand it.
The things that make obvious sense to me moving her out of the bedroom (which I haven't decided on yet. If it comes up again I won't stop as before.) Asking her to leave. I've already stated that I think this is not beneficial to me short or long term. Cutting her off finaincly. This actual isn't an option as there isn't a situation where I support her any more then she supports me. The bills are split and the extra I bring in goes to emergency accounts and vacation funds. I reviewed the budget where she would pay for her share and me mine and she would have even more money to herself as I wouldn't expect her to pay half of my car payment anymore. You have to understand that our budget has been based on a combined income not singular incomes our entire lives. We didn't live or work independently ever. I have already been working on accepting this and moving past some of my grief which I believe has to be the first step to detachment. I rarely even in our marriage tolerated complete disrespect as you mentioned but it hasn't been any issue at this time anyway. She is a complete joy to be around all the time unless I pursue and push her buttons. Then she simply withdraws from any conversation no mean words or anger. I could work on ignoring her text some assuming she ever sends me one that isn't just a typical courtesy text of I'm not coming back for dinner or I've arrived at my destination safely. I'm really not sure what else tough love could be I don't really believe it's disrespect so I can't just be mean or go around informing everyone about the affair so she can feel slut shamed or something. It already been made pretty clear I should keep the entire sitch as quiet as possible if I want to hope for reconcile.
Yep, your instincts are correct on tough love. Yes cutting her off financially would be one option, but every situation is different. We typically tell LBSs not to fund your WW's lifestyle, or pay them to cheat and leave you. But again, that is based on everyone situation. But you get the point. sandi may have some additional ideas. And the tough love thing is kind of controversial. Since sandi is a former WW I personally would listen to her, but there are others here that do no advocate tough love, at least some of the tactics we've discussed. And anyone reading this should understand that WWs are not the same as regular WAWs.
Still don't know how the process works I'd say but I'm hoping we can start working on strategies to work on my problems soon.
I don't know how other religious sponsored therapy sessions may be conducted, but if you get the feeling he is trying to incorporate the belief system into your sessions, then you can decide if you want to continue or find an IC that's not paid by religious funding. I'm not trying to debate it, I just wanted you to know they aren't Christian.
If anyone wants to chime in not on what they discuss but the process with there therapist I would appreciate. Are you giving like homework, coping mechanisms, things to actually apply to life to help you change habits or is it just all self realization?
I have had little personal experience for myself. I put my daughter in counseling, to help her cope with the disease she had. It was horrible! The guy was later fired. From what I read about other's experience, it depends on the IC. If he knows you are there to find out how to heal, improve, fix, or whatever......then, hopefully, he will give you the how-to. Some IC's just listen, ask about your past, etc. That seems logical to me, but I agree with you.......give me something on paper. I don't think it would hurt to ask him, after all, why shouldn't you know the plan of operations?
I'm not sure what holes in particular your talking about but I have tried to be as honest as possible at least from my perspective.
Oh, no! As I told you, I didn't mean I thought you were lying. I apologize for using poor wording. I am guilty of trying to get a picture in my head about the LBS and what he's all about. Why did he interact with his W the way he did, and why the MR derailed. I only meant that I was having trouble finding the missing pieces to the puzzle.
Like I said I didn't take the time to walk into her job to give her things, every now and again I did but mostly I didn't.
Neither did my H, but I didn't want him coming to my job and giving me flowers or some gift. To me, it felt as if it was all for show. Having flowers delivered felt a little differently, but no, I didn't want him showing at work.
I did always hold her hand out in public, I talked about her with everyone I ever met, (Something I know for a fact she didn't do about me. Sometimes I met people she worked with for months who didn't know about me. Probably should have been a red flag.)
Everyone has different feelings about showing romantic gestures. Some women have a need for the H to give some signs of affection while in front of other people. I wasn't one who wanted it, but apparently, your W was. Did she initiate affection with you, while in front of others? Strange that she would not even mention she had a H, if she wanted flowers & gifts at work.
I was always affectionate with her, I always was trying to talk to her, to do things she wanted, to take her out. I bought gifts, I went out of my way to get things she wanted even in the middle of night and during storms. I filled her car with gas every week before she could even think about it.
Wow! Now you are sharing the more positive side of you, whereas, previously you were mostly showing the negative. Look, everyone has their own language of love. Have you ever read that book about the five love languages? If not, I think you might find very enlightening. I can clearly see where my H and I missed the mark, and were not doing the things that each other needed. My H is not a talker, and I craved for him to share his ideas, goals, desires, etc. I needed him to talk to me intimately, and feed my ego. That would have made me feel extremely close to him. I could probably count on one hand how many times it happened, and you would think he could see how I was so happy as a result of it. His love language is acts of service, which I didn't know until I read the LL book. It all made sense after I received a tiny bit of education in this area.
I believe it's very important, Illidin, to try to fill the emotional needs of our spouse, not as a way to change them over to what we want them to do, but we do it b/c we love them. For example, you probably didn't particularly want to get up in the middle of the night and go out into a storm to get something she wanted. I mean, who would? Doing it b/c you love her, is the right motive. Doing it b/c you want something from her in return, isn't the right motive. That's JMHO. In other words, if you expected her to have more sex with you b/c you are busting your chops doing things you believe she wants..........it may blow up in your face, if she thinks otherwise. It sounds logical, doesn't it? IDK, but I think there are a lot of H's who believe it is not only rational, but that's how it
should work in MR.
If the W is unhappy b/c her emotional needs are not being met, and if those things you are doing is not her love language, or it does nothing to inspire her affection........then you may not see much change in the bedroom. She might appreciate what you did, but she doesn't see sex as a trade off, so to speak. Speaking from my experience, I resented him for thinking I should give him sex b/c he did something nice for me. I can have a healthier understanding about it now, but that wasn't the case when we were younger. The way you describe your W's shyness, make me think of myself the first several years of M. My H and I were each other's first, too. I went into M very uneducated about sex, and I didn't have a clue about men's needs, etc.
Some women start taking for granted her nice-guy H, who will get up in the middle of the night to get whatever she wants. Her appreciation meter fails to register. Like me, I knew my H was a nice-guy and if I asked, he would usually do it. Did he get any favors in return? He didn't get the ones he thought he should have (more sex), which may be completely normal for a man to see it that way. So, you can see the problem. It wasn't about who was to blame. Neither of us seem to understand the emotional needs of the other one. It seems simple looking back, but relationships are very complex.
Were there somethings that she disliked that I felt was core part of my being that until very recently I didn't really work on? Things like the fact that I have very limited tonal range. It rarely changes but that doesn't mean I'm not happy or excited. My wife constantly said she couldn't feel those things from me most of the time. And me telling her was never good enough. I still dont really know how to work on that, people who like or tolerate me say I'm very stoic and it took a long to learn how to not feel like I was mad or unhappy even when I was having happy conversations.
I have a relative who people quickly judge as being socially weird. Some think he is high level retarded. Some have asked me if he is autistic. Since his parents are closely related to me, I know how he was raised. One of his parents wasn't the idea role model for how one interacts socially, and the other parent didn't seem to know he needed to be taught. He really wasn't
taught, IMHO, how to interact in any type of setting, to be honest. He appeared very immature, talked too much, sounded immature for his age, couldn't make eye contact, etc. His physical skills were delayed when he was a baby, which concerned me, but his parents refused to have him tested. I could go on & on, but I really don't know how much of his lack of social skills is the result of his own parents inability to teach/train him, and how much is a mental defect. Does that make sense? I have always thought his social awkwardness could improve drastically, if he knew what to change. Now for someone like myself, I always wonder why a person couldn't simply observe the behavior of others, but then I've never been in his shoes, nor your shoes. My mother taught her children how to interact with people, and how to behave in different settings (when to have fun and when to be serious). Like you, he had few friends, had very few girlfriends, etc. So, I may not really understand your situation. but I want you to know it really touches my heart, and I want to see you happy with who you are as a man.
I think, as a society, we expect everyone to act a certain way (usually like us). The minute someone doesn't have the facial expressions, verbal response, and mannerisms we think are molded in every person........we tend to distant ourselves from that individual. Your W knows you better than anyone, and maybe she feels you could blend in better if you just tried harder, IDK. Maybe she sees you like I see my relative, and believes your parents failed in that department.
It was selfish but it use to really depress me that she couldn't understand me enough to love me and not a version of me. Now I realize that isn't true and its something I can change my habits on.
We women can be guilty of trying to get our H to change. I don't why, but we seem to feel he could improve. If he was good enough for us to marry, then why do we try to change him? If you find the answer, you could become a rich man!
You asked if anyone ever taught me about how to treat a women how to cherish them? I dont fully understand this, do you mean did someone actually sit down and talk to me? No, is that something people do with their sons? I thought people just learned those things over time through trial and error.
Sometimes we learn from our role models how to treat a spouse, whether it's negative or positive. Some fathers or older males in their life will occasionally talk to the younger one about women. I don't mean just sex talk, but tell them how women want to be treated, and what works in a MR and what doesn't. Some mothers teach their sons how to treat a woman well, lovingly, etc. I was determined if I ever had sons, I would teach them from the woman's point of view. It doesn't guarantee they will have successful relationships, but they can't say they went into it blind, not understanding what a woman needs. I know that everyone doesn't have those people who will have those type of talks that prepares a young man for life, much less about the emotional needs of a woman, and how to properly treat her. So, I'm not shooting you down. I'm just getting to know who you are.
Knowing that your home had parents with some mental illness issues, gives an explanation to some of the questions I had. When a person is raised very traditionally with healthy/loving parents, it's a little harder for them to identify with a person who didn't have the same atmosphere or conditions growing up. However, I try to empathize when I am enlightened from someone who has lived it.
I have heard my wife say I dont think like normal people a million times. I dont know why that is. I never entirely even understood it. I view the world very logically and from and I guess my viewpoint is wrong.
I wouldn't say your viewpoint is wrong. I've known people (especially men) who had stoic expressions, who seemed to be serious all time, and wouldn't lighten up and joke around like I did. They were often labeled as not having a friendly or outgoing personality. I've known them to be extremely logical in their thinking and approach to everything. It doesn't make them wrong, weird, or a misfit in life. In fact, there have been several that I highly respected, based on their character......not on their sunny personality.
I'm going to end here, since it's so long. But I'm going to continue on a new post. (I seem to be doing that a lot lately.)
Part 2.........
(Illidin, please read my previous post.)
I want you to know that the other board members (that I've seen) do not write like I do........which, you'll be glad to hear.
I don't want you to think I'm trying to be some wannabe therapist, b/c that's not the case....even if you may think I sound it.
I realize that now even more than before as people here kind of treat me like a unique case, at least feel that way. Unfortunately I did always view it as a positive, I took pride in the fact that social norms didn't control me. That ive never really felt a lot pressure to do things I don't want to do because other people feelings towards me don't really affect me that strongly.
I want to touch on what you said here, b/c in my previous post I talked about some people appearing socially awkward and how people misjudge them as being weird. If your conduct, decision-making, etc., was based on your core values and moral integrity........then
be proud. Nobody is saying you need to follow the crowd just so you feel like you fit somewhere. That's exactly what we try to teach children, right? Do what is right, not what is popular.
I haven't seen anyone here treating you differently. I'm just as blunt with you as I am with others.
After reading more from you, I can't help but wonder if you wouldn't have to figure out how to survive as a "loner", since you didn't have friends growing up. It takes courage to be alone, as most of us experience once we start school and see kids in groups, etc. For some reason, being physically alone today, causes you insecurity. I don't know how much that little boy had to make himself believe it didn't bother him what others thought. How many times you played that mental recording in your head. How much anger it might cased you to feel. Like I said, kids have to figure out a way to live with the cards they were dealt at the time. Something caused your fear, insecurity, and extreme negativity about everything. Something caused you to feel the need to control the one person who didn't reject you. If you don't know what that something is, then hopefully, the IC will help you find the source. In order to find a solution, you have to shine the light on the real source of your problems. You can't ignore it or bury it and think you can overcome it through shear inner strength and determination alone, IMHO. It will always come bleeding through in your actions. It's always there under the surface. If you already know what has caused you to live in fear and insecurity, but you don't know a solution and try to have the attitude that you can't change the past.......then the chances of life long improvements are lowered. It's true that we can't change what happened to us as children. We can't change the past, as early as yesterday. I get the feeling that you are searching for the solutions to save your MR. I hope you will also search for solutions that help the boy that was rejected and made to feel he was different.
Recently though I just want to feel normal. Now more than ever as it has cost something I can't really replace. I mean even if I changed and found a new life and a new family, even if I was happier in that regard then now. I still lost someone so very important to me. I think that will haunt me forever.
I want you to feel good about being you. Get help for those inner nightmares that plaque you.
Quote
Oh goodness! You summed it up pretty well, with only a few words. smile My story is way too long to read.
I meant no disrespect, I'm not sure if you felt I kinda understood or your being sarcastic in the first line
Sorry, it's my brand of humor. I'm always making fun of myself for writing novels to explain something, while most of the LBH's here can say just as much in a couple of sentences.
I think maybe I understand better now. Your husband basically got lucky. That you found your own path back and the tough love you got essential came from this forum.
In fact, I was going to explain in this post how the board gave me that tough love. Usually, it's the LBS who comes here looking for help, so they are the ones getting the tools. When it's a wayward spouse who signs up, it's different. I mean, the DB books are more geared for the spouse who wants to save the M, which is not the norm joining the board. So, when I read the book, I didn't feel it was speaking directly to me, but it wasn't useless. I was the lucky one, b/c I had some great mentors. One gal was just about as blunt and straight shooting as I am, and that's what's I needed. So wow......you are beginning to understand me, which is a talent b/c my mind runs faster than I type and some people may think I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth. If it ever see sounds that way to you, just ask and I will do my best to clean up my mess.
I get that your years here have really pointed to tough love being what helps people cheating hit bottom and yes I can look it up. But I am here for support and help, you have no obligation to answer, but you have some understanding my life right now. I
One reason I stress tough love is b/c the
majority of LBH's who come to the board are men with NGS (nice guy syndrome). I have observed it for years, and it's amazing, but it makes sense to me b/c I know the mindset of the WW. These nice-guy LBH's don't understand tough love, and are scared to try it. It's a foreign concept to them, b/c it feels opposite to what they think should work to get her back. That's why I wrote that little bit in my signature line. It's not what he thinks should work. The WW is not logical. She disrespects him, resents him, and is rebelling against him and their M. So, it's about what works to get the right results. There have been very few WW's to show up on the board, but those that have fully support the message I try to give LBH's. I don't even think WW's and WH's are exactly the same, b/c they are wired differently. So, I mostly stick to posting LBH's who have a WW. Occasionally, I will talk to the LBW's.
I would love to hear what you would do in regards to tough love. Im not asking to be told what to do just what you think might have worked best for you in my situation.
I tell you what. I would love to tell you about tough love, b/c it may or may not be anything like you perceive. I will try to tell give you some idea of the mindset of a WW. In fact, I have several threads on the subject. I'll copy & paste the links. Now, I'll warn you, I had several people posting and asking questions about their own personal sitch, so don't let that distract you. Also, I had a couple of friends (who are rock stars in the DB hall of fame) to give their input.
Here's you some homework to read:
First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post25510394th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post25518115th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214If you run out, I can give you a couple more, but these threads will hopefully give you a picture of the WW.
When you read these threads and if nothing said reminds you of your W......let me know, okay?
One more thing. When you read that first thread, don't jump into something before first discussing it here. Just want to make sure you aren't doing it to be doing "something", and I want you to know what it is you are doing, first.
((hugs))
Sandi- I read through your threads before but I read through them again. I do sometimes see aspects of my wife in those threads and myself as well in some your lists about things that destroy a marriage. I still don't really know what to do though. The only thing I can really do based on what you and a lot people seem to think is ask her to leave, which she has no obligation to do and I don't know if she would. Or leave myself which is of course something I don't want to do either. As ive mentioned before. There isnt much else. We already dont do laundry together, her decision after moving out of the bedroom this last weekend. She already pays her own bills and phone. I won't take care of her car or anything but it's not like shes not capable I just always felt like that was something a man should do for his wife. Honestly even if she left or I did I'm not sure I have any kind hope she would even realize she misses anything about us. Unlike a lot of what I read on here my wife is not having an affair with a single person. Its not something where she wants any kind of commitment or plan. She wants independence and as a part of that she wants to be able to have whatever fun she wants to have with whomever. So there isn't going to be a falling out that breaks her, she has already fallen out with multiple people since this started. Her net grows everyday the Facebook group feels like this almost meaningless harmless website in comparison to her actively searching people out with the close location finders shes using now. I feel like your definition of a wayward wife is more about being lost in the fantasy of what this new life with a different partner can be like but maybe I'm just reading into it. I just can't imagine what kinda bottom this could have for her. She has an entire lifetime to re-live that she missed out on because of me. I feel like thats what she wants to reclaim. The time so many people spend trying to learn whats important in a relationship, in sexual preference, in hobbies, friends etc.The men are just one byproduct of that. Along with her new vape and drinking. Constant late nights and traveling on a whim. None of this is based on seeing someone in particular. I know that because I see the pictures and speak to the family shes with.
As far as how the last week as more or less gone well I can't say its too much different than before. My wife is gone most days of week. Somehow the friends that never seem to have time for her before have all the time in world recently, maybe because everyone is stuck at home. Sometimes she tells me about it but rarely. I had couple of days I felt like I had a lot of calm of acceptance of the situation I wasn't being bothered by much and was able to enjoy some of my time again. That was fine until I was helping her do some math and was looking at her phone and she get snapchat form some new guy I've never seen. I spiraled again and things went of the rail. That put me back in a depression the next day. On Saturday we moved the bedrooms. That was a very bad day. It was a whole lot to take and it became a lot worse as the day went on. We had to make decision about various things in the house and hearing talk about stuff was terrible. In the guest bedroom we keep some kids stuff, a rocking horse thats a dinosaur, and a toy chest full of clothes and toys that we have bought or my wife made going all the back to when we were 13 years old. I asked what she wanted to do with it and she said I don't know we'll just sell the stuff. No emotion at all. This stuff use to be the most important things to her, they have survived her being kicked out of her parents house, and 5 moves over the course of 13 years and just like they don't even matter to her to keep for herself. When I asked about it she said she didn't care about those goals anymore those were about a life she had where she thought she would have this great family and husband with me. There were many things like that, photos, cards, mementos, the entirety of our life together and what I always perceived as her identity no longer matters. She talked about selling basically all of her collectibles and what not as well. Lots of them are gifts from me but a lot of those hobbies predate even me being with her. It was all too much for me. We talked a lot of the over years about what would happened if ever broke up. About how you can't just erase history like ours. These memories would always be important to us even if something came between us. But apparently we were wrong. None of it means anything to her anymore. I spent most of the day talking about our past and trying to understand how all of these things just don't matter anymore. By the end of the day I was anger I demanded more information about how this happened, about what was going on now. Why she insisted on staying with me. How she truly can be so done with me but sit there and watch me literally rot from the inside out wanting to be with her. As usual I got no answers just complacent attitude about how its not my business.
Strangely I've been in an overall better place since then. I'm still not doing great but overall I don't feel as empty. On mothers day she refused to go to my parents even after my mother asking her specifically if she was coming just a couple days before and her telling her we were coming to keep face. We just lied and said both of our mothers made plans at the same time and she went there. Mind you in 13 years that has never happened, she always chose my parents first and then we would go to hers after even if the event was over. My mother was odd all day. She knows our behavior recently has been very different. She mentioned how skinny I looked and I gladly agreed I had lost a good amount. I've lost about 20 pounds in 2 months. Its not for the right reasons but I'm not really unhappy about it. I felt pretty lonely and on edge but overall it was a nice day. I left after a couple hours and went to my sisters to deliver a trashcan I had for her. Spent some time there and just unwinded. After that I decided I would go to my in laws, I wasn't fully decided all day and after the fight the night before I wasn't sure my wife would even let me. But again she was completely unconcerned if I wanted to come then fine otherwise it didn't matter. I don't how much more time I'll get to spend with them so I don't want to miss some time to spend with them. My wife just more or less ignored me as if I was another person in the room nothing special. Spoke to me some in relation to the conversation, rarely looked at me, never touched me. Rolled off any comment about us as a couple that was made. I'm glad I went though, I made a point not be reserved, to be open and have conversation with everyone in a way I rarely do. It was nice, I had fun being apart of the group. Some conversations were awkward. My wife is planning another trip to Vegas in June for our godsons 5th birthday. Apparently she was planning on taking our little sister, she hadn't told me that. That kicked off the whole rest of the family planning to go though so now everyone is going. This conversation was happening when I got there halfway through, Bill her grandfather, asked me so your not going right? So my wife most have already excused me form the trip prior to me arriving. I just said I wasn't sure, I would like too but I'm not sure what happening with work yet. Over all I left with a big smile on my face. In the driveway though any amount of act to be happy around me went straight out the window and she just bye. I grabbed some dinner and gas and went home, I saw her for a minute before she went to her room and that was it. Before her moving rooms I at least saw her regularly and we talked somewhat normally. Now hardly at all.
The last 2 days have been up and down. I feel okay for the most part. but things set me off occasionally. Yesterday it came to my attention that my wife is now a moderator on the facebook group. That hurt alot. I spent a couple hours thinking through a lot of emotions after that. I really just want to talk to her to try to get her to help to understand again. I just want to know what exactly it is she wants in life. What about all of this makes her life so much better. I also feel like I don't know how much of our life together might have been a lie. I just want honesty, more than anything right now I want the truth about what was maybe not said or what else happened in the past behind my back. My sister just happened to text at that moment and said her bf was asking about me and if I was coming by today. Thinking about it now I hope Im not being a burden but at the time it really made me feel good to be thought about. I went by and had dinner. I had a really good time overall. Had some actually conversation not about me. I'm trying really hard to be better at interacting socially. My sister got herself a little drunk on accident so we called it a night a little early. My wife took off with a friend after work so I didn't see her until about midnight. We talked for a minute and I complimented the new jacket she bought and she went to bed.
Right this second I feel kinda okay overall. But I didn't work today and ended up sleeping until noon so I know I'm not doing great. I would normally get up early and at least find things do around the house or take care of errands. But I did things like that because I took pride in our home and wanted to have time to spend with my wife. That no longer really matters though so I just have no drive to do any of it. My yard is atrocious, I normally take a lot of pride in it. Wife said she probably wouldn't come home again until late since her and her friend didn't get to go everywhere they planned yesterday. so I guess it will be another empty house day. The emptiness of this master bedroom is disheartening. I rarely sleep longer than an hour before I wake up tossing. I did the same thing any time she was gone before. I had some weird dreams last night. One where she was just blatantly mean to me about other men. One where I bonded with my little brother on her side. and one where things were normal again. Of course the last one hurt the worse. I do feel like I'm starting to come to terms with what is happening though. That the grief isn't as strong anymore. It lets me be able to think through my actions more reasonably. Maybe I really needed to let the anger boil on Saturday. I have had lots of thoughts as you can see but for the last 2 days I haven't said anything to my wife outside of general chit chat. I'm not sure when the last time she even asked about how my day was or even what I did.
My wife just came home for a second after to work to start laundry before heading back out. Her actions right now have been something that's been bothering me as well that I keep forgetting to talk about. It's just something that I guess I don't see get brought up much elsewhere. Normally it feels like other sitchs are dealing with manipulation of crumb droppings in these regards but not me. So first off she came home to start laundry normally she would just ask me to do it in fact this the first week in years I haven't been doing all the laundry. It's just something I've always done cause she use to work weekends. When she moved into the bedroom she took our spare hamper and said she'd deal with her own stuff I figured well good cause I should stop anyway. When she was in Vegas I didn't get to check the car before. So I texted her uncle and had him checkn it there. It was in fact low on coolant and he took care of it. When she got back complained for min about me not taking better care of it but quickly changed her point to she wanted to be taught what she needed to keep an eye on and how to do it and I should at least be able to do that. That she had been asking to be shown forever, which I've actually shown her various things before and talked to her about watching her gas, walking her tires, occasionally checking the oil and coolant. And of course watching her milage for oil changes. She rarely remembers to even check her gas let alone rememberdms the things we've talked about but now she wants to taught again. That led into a conversation about knowing how to pay her bills online, her student loans, credit card etc. Mind you she created or was there when they were created but had just never really bothered to learn because I take of it. In a strange way she kinda doesn't know how to be an adult but would only ask about the things in passing usually while we were out and if tell her okay tell me when we get home and we sit down and go through everything. But she never did and j would forget. Even this time I told we could look at but she wanted to take shower first and then went to bed. So today she was getting light bulb but she couldn't reach she instantly asked me for help and then said nevermind and got the step stool I bought for her 3 years ago and used it. I think this is the 1st time she's ever used it. Basically my wife has no interest in getting help from me anymore. She wants to be independent even in the little things like reaching a cupboard. I guess I just don't see that behavior too often from the other people posting. It's usually a weird limbo vs hard decision.
Woke up with the heart attack feeling of anxiety today. So much for having some calm. But at least my wife came home today, I know that I'm making no progress while my emotions are still tied to her. I think we can all agree that the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, at least with the way my mind runs away. Since I knew she was home I cooked dinner while she did homework or at least said she did. Know that she has her room she does everything in there. Years and years she complained about how she couldn't sit on that bed and thats why she would stay in the living room when I wanted to lay down for a little while, I have a rough back so every now and again I just need to stretch it out while I'm relaxing vs sitting.I brought it up jokingly today and she said this bed was fine its the cal king in the bedroom she cant sit in. We only got the cal king last year before that we had the queen in the bedroom for 5 years or so, whatever I guess. Later she was complaining about being tired but knowing she would have a second wind. Of course I made the mistake of trying to fix. Told her if she didn't play on her phone before sleeping when she laid down and maybe went for a walk after dinner she would be good. We fixed it that way years ago when she had a really early job and it only got messed up again in the last couple years. She got an attitude and told me not to try and fix her. After that we had a nice dinner watched a couple hours of tv and then she went to her bedroom. I'm calm now I guess no pain or anxiety. I hate everything about whats going on but there isn't any pain right now. I really don't know how much hope I have anymore, still looking for a positive outcome though. Doing my best to keep my mouth shut even though I want to talk so badly.
On another note of what feels like failure I worked up the courage to finally talk to a mutual friend of ours. I know I know clean pavement but I've been wanting to ask her about this for a long time now and It kinda helped with my perspective even if it was exactly what I thought I would hear. She and her guy had a falling out years ago, he was cheating on her and she had had enough moved back to her parents for a bit but was also quickly seeing another guy. The story it turns was more complicated than that she had been cheating first and then he started and they lived that way for a bit and then she finally decided she couldn't take it anymore and left so she could sort herself out and let him be with the other girl. He fought back for there relationship though and she started hooking up with their room mate to push him away. In the end they both decided to move past the cheating and work on each other. I had never got the full story before now, even after all these years. Me and the wife treated her guy with a lot of disrespect over the years, that he didn't really deserve it turns out, made our friendship with them very strained in fact. We trusted her decision but we were bothered by his actions. But there story made sense. I asked her since you both loved each other the whole time in your minds but simply found the needs that were missing elsewhere did you ever not feel remorse at the time for it? She said she felt bad the whole time. I guess thats the rub huh. Affairs happen all the time and lots of couples move forward but a lot probably happen as a band aid that they recognize is wrong. Not as a deep emotional disconnect like in my sitch. I wanted to know how she forgave but it wasn't that hard I'm sure. The truth is I love my wife and I forgive her right now for what happened. The problem is she doesn't believe it was a bad thing. She already didn't care about me at all. Forgiveness is easy because of how much I care, trust is the hard part. But none of those matters cause of where we are. Its so silly but I truly needed this wake up call. I would never have truly faced myself and the problems that have held me back forever without it. I wish she had just had a fling that tore her up inside because she loved me years ago because the shock would have woke me up. We would have had a long time sorting that as well but I was never ready to admit my problems before now. The words she said in anger the times she threatened to leave and I made empty promises to change knowing that I would forget them when the dust settled. More of my coping mechanisms in play if you say something to me shouting or in a fight it will almost always be forgotten. But these things didn't come up in the calm moments, the happy moments. At least not that I can remember.
I don't know what the future holds at his point at all. I do know that I want that future to include my wife but I honestly can't say I trust that it will. I don't know what that means for me. Most days I would rather just be done with all of this forever. I'm not sure if I'll really grasp this DBing well enough at all but I think that will be the plan ahead. I'm not even certain if that plan is in fact the right course but its the only one I seem to have.
Yeah....way too much focus on her. Where is your GAL? 180s? What are you doing to work on detachment?
The emotional roller-coaster is real and won't stop until you focus on you, not her.
Honestly even if she left or I did I'm not sure I have any kind hope she would even realize she misses anything about us.
It's not so much about finding something to cause her to miss you, as it is about her facing consequences for her choices. The LBH has to stand up for what he believes is right. I’m not talking about controlling the WW. He cannot force her to change, but he doesn’t have to allow disrespect under his own roof. He is the leader in his family/home. He has to live his life based on his core values, integrity, principles, etc. If he is being the very best man he knows how to be…….. does that change if his W does not respond the way he hoped? I think not. Why would he stop being the best he can be?
Unlike a lot of what I read on here my wife is not having an affair with a single person. Its not something where she wants any kind of commitment or plan.
As I've stated previously, she doesn't have to be in one affair with one man. She doesn't even have to be in an affair at all. It's just that it's so common in the cases we read on the board. I want you to get your head out of this idea your W isn't wayward b/c she's not limiting herself to one particular man, and/or is not seeking a commitment. That may be what you've interpreted in some stories here, but I've read about women who never have a PA, but have an EA. Sometimes the OM doesn't even know he is the object of her fantasy, and other times, he does. On the other hand, I’ve read plenty of cases where the WW went wild and tried to sleep with everything that walked. I'm not sure if you are trying to find a loophole or if you really misunderstand what you've read. (I hope I don’t sound offensive by that statement.) If I've learned one thing since I've been on the board, is that some LBH’s had rather his W be
anything other than a WW.......including her having a mental illness, which I think is pretty sad. Men will jump at diagnosing their W with MLC......but just don't pin that wayward label on her. To me, that says a lot about ego, plus, they don't understand the cornerstone of the WW mindset......all they see is their W's rejection and giving her time & attention (and maybe affection) elsewhere. Well, guess what? From what I've seen, so do the MLC crowd, and MLC usually lasts a lot longer, generally speaking.
She wants independence and as a part of that she wants to be able to have whatever fun she wants to have with whomever. So there isn't going to be a falling out that breaks her, she has already fallen out with multiple people since this started.
Her wanting independence, is just a nice way of her saying she wants to be free of you, and like you stated, she wants to be able to have
whatever fun she wants with whomever. Would you clarify what you mean by, “She is going to be falling out that breaks her”.
I feel like your definition of a wayward wife is more about being lost in the fantasy of what this new life with a different partner can be like but maybe I'm just reading into it.
It's not the definition, but I'd say her fantasy is definitely a driving force. Her fantasy shifts into high gear and that's usually when she starts acting like a woman her H doesn't recognize. Waywardness starts in the mind/heart. That's why I've tried to tell people that the W
doesn't have to be in an affair to be identified as a wayward wife. It starts with her mindset. Over a period of time in the relationship, there's been unresolved issues, resentments, disappointments, bitterness, unforgiveness, etc., that she's attached to her H. Those feelings can cause a woman to slowly lose respect for her H. Her feelings of being "in love" and her desire/attraction is tied to her level of respect for her H. Eventually she begins to act out in some form of rebellion. At first, it might be something so small he just shrugs it off.
By the time you came to the board, she was probably engaging in some type of inappropriate behavior. Currently, you can see your W acting out in rebellion. Waywardness is about disrespect, resentfulness, selfishness, and rebellion. Rebellion can take on many forms. You can see it in kids, teenagers, young adults, and old people. Waywardness has no age limit.
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Okay, so let's look at you. You don't have to do anything we suggest, of course, but we do hope you'll consider some solutions. I often encourage the newcomer to think about his values and belief system, b/c that is essential in finding what works for him in any situation. Then, I strongly suggest you set goals. The goals are about you, and for you. Some people set wide range goals and break those down into smaller ones. You need a plan in how to get there. In other words, to say "My goal is to be a better man" is not specific. Break it down into smaller goals that build you into being the man you want to become. Does that make sense?
Some men make goals like, "My W will kiss me by the end of the month". Well, IMHO, the goal is about her. You may really desire her to kiss you........but I think it causes a H to subconsciously pursue her, trying to get that kiss. In cases such as yours, I believe you need to work on yourself, first. Before you jump off into broad goals of "being a better H", I suggest you set smaller, reachable goals of becoming a better man. You may be surprised to see how becoming a better man, is the solution to other problems.
I've seen some newcomers take on too many hard things at one time. For instance, they decide to go cold turkey on drinking, smoking, porn, sugar, and any other addictive hold in their life. It's too much to bite off together. Start small, and remember that we all reach our personal goals one day at time.
Hope your anxiety has eased and we hear from you soon.
Hey sandi.
Anxiety just comes and go right this second with the hustle and bustle I feel a little calm. Last night I battled with weather or I could stay in my home any longer. Today I went back to work for the foreseeable future. It is also my 13th aniversary 🎉. A lot of emotion. I don't think I'll go home today at least. Thank you for your reaching out though.
I'll update more when I can in regards to my attempts or failures.
So an update from Monday. All and all Monday wasn't that bad I had a nice time out. I did break down a few times especially after I came home that. I spoke to my wife a little she wouldn't acknowledged the day on he'd own at all of course, that hurt. Even if we aren't together 13 years isn't a small thing not everyone has someone they have got to know for that long. Tuesday she went out again she prefers to never be here. I don't blame her I have not been to handle this new dynamic. I want to talk to her but have nothing to really say. I always was talking about us even before. The weather is so gorgeous tonight we should sit outside or maybe we should make plans for the weekend. Etc etc. Now all I come back to what we don't have anymore. Wednesday she did actually come home we cooked had a nice meal watched TV. I was in an okay headspace that night. Still ran out of things to talk about but eventually she started to talk to me normally about a subject regarding her new interest. I think I just got lucky that she didn't shut me down. But it was so nice to talk to her for real again. For her to be present and interested. It wasn't the kind of topic we would have discussed before even if I had wanted to she would have clamed up. There wasn't any love towards me in my opinion but to talk to my friend again was special. I think I'm still a long way out from understanding this. From detaching. But in that moment I thought for the first time maybe I could have this friendship if that was all I could save.
Lol oh our spouses though. Always ready to tear down any glimpse of happiness we seem to have you know. So next door I met with a very cold and stern faced wife. She is very serious and we need to talk. She wants to move out. She is not comfortable here, she doesn't feel like i can respect her space. I have not been the best at that so no surprise there.i tell her I don't want that and im not sure how she's going to manage unless she stays with someone. She says shell figure it out it's not my problem. I ask if she would want help moving, she says no I don't want to rely on you for anything anymore. And of course the biggest reason for this conversation, after all she could have just found a place behind my back, she wants the money from the accounts. She wants everything split that was joint and she'd also like the money we discussed in terms of me buying her out of the house. Mind you I have no idea if keeping the house will even be allowed when the time comes or if the lender will agree to refinance to me alone. I start explaining how that would be unwise on my part, that sounds simple but what happens when I do this now and in 6 months when I truly no longer matter and you want to file a divorce and take half of what's left too. Now I'm a piece of [censored] of course how could I even think she would be so greedy and heartless, I don't know cheating on me and up and leaving maybe, once again the rendition of I was talking to some guys online get over it, I could have done much worse. She did recently go out of her way to look up cheating online though. I saw it in a left open window. So when I called it cheating either way, this time she agreed versus telling me it wasn't really the same. Although still down playing it, " yes fine I cheated, I cybercheated, it still could have been worse and it has nothing to do with this. You know I wouldn't do that I just want wants mine." The article she clearly stated how all the different cheating was equally damaging that trying to generalize it didn't actually make it different. Maybe she didn't read it all, maybe it didn't matter, she just jumped at the ability to give it a new label that felt like less I guess. So she talks about taking part of the furniture, which is fine. Howed she'd like some money to help with things like a fridge, since she leaving me the one my parents bought us. business like that. I explain for awhile longer that I'm not sure how I feel about this. That it isn't just about us splitting like it was 3 years ago, were married and with come all kinds of ramifications. You could come after more money, the house, fail and default on bills or rent and hurt both of credits. It's a lot to ask without any paperwork and I deserve to protect myself also. Again I'm being negative, acting like she can't handle life with out me, being overbearing, trying to control her by holding this stuff over head. I understand what she's saying but that's not the intention. I at least want time to think about process it, maybe consult a legal professional. I don't say that last part out loud. She's pissed of course and storms off.
I went to my room and spoke to an work friend who had a similar high school sweetheart marriage like mine. They split years ago and I wanted her opinion. She thought it was fair for me to think about me in all this as well. Her and her husband didn't have any major assets so it was easy they officially divorced 3 years after seperation amicably and split the cost by then they were friends. Not close ones but still spoke semi regularly. She said when he left they just split the assets and that was that. My situation is more complicated with the house of course though. I though about more and slept on it. In the morning at work I went through all the accounts and split them the way we had discussed for years. There are 2 joint accounts, and a bills account which had a surplus for the money we had been saving for silly [censored], vacations, spur of moments outing, gifts, car maintinece etc. And then we have individual saving and spending accounts. I sent her the money and told her that was everything accept for the house. She could live with me if she wanted but I was paying anything for the house until it was it on paper. Her voice to leave is on her and I think it's fair to at least protect myself on our 1 real asset that I can't really know I will get to keep. she thanked me. When I came home she finished loading her car and took off back to Vegas for the holiday.
Im sure lots of you will say I made the wrong decision but overall I think it was right. It was her money. I hope we can end this without a fight. I still want my wife back but I don't see that happening any time soon. While the conversation was nice this week, some of the things we discussed really cemented some my wife's thinking right now. I pretty firmly believe she won't see me as a partner again until she fully works through this time in her life. And for me as a spouse it will get much worse. She's going to do things that will change us both forever. I'm really doing my best to accept right now. I have not texted or called since I transferred the money. We spoke for only a moment before she left mostly just bye have a safe trip. She texted to tell me she made it there. I said okay. She texted again to tell me her phone bill was due and asked for the password. I always paid all the bills before. I gave it to her. She there with our God son, last week she took our little brother and sister to the beach. She never sends me pictures or anything. Even though I've been voicing over and over again that I really hate that I'm goong to lose them too. It would be nice if I could see them happy and hear about the day while I still can since I'm not allowed to go. Every interaction in the last month that wasn't related to something she wanted like moving the bedroom, moving out, the money is started by me. So I haven't texted or called since I told her I moved the money and explained the house. It's hard I just want to call and her voice and her my God son's voice and hear about what there doing. I went out last night and that helped distract me for awhile.
Getting a life is hard I'm reaching out to people I used to know but conversation is not my strong suit and it's not like we can do anything together either. Basically the only way to get out of the house is to walk around a park or wander in a store. Been trying to read more again it's been hard though I get distracted by my thoughts easily. Work is helpful in some ways but also full of anxiety. I don't feel like Im doing 100% and that's bothersome especially with the state our economy is in. A major cut to education looks likely here and I've only had this job a year so my chances are not good in a lay off situation. My last therapy session I brought up how I always believed it was scam and I didn't know how it was supposed to work. He told me that was something I needed to decide but first I need to decide what exactly I want out of it. So I'm trying to think about that about what I want from those sessions. that's it basically another long few days in my life. 2 months since it all went up in flames is on Monday. Crazy all quickly a life together can just unravel completely.
Ups and downs as usual today. Still haven't contacted and haven't heard anything either. Boring day today. Watched some TV. Went out to pick up some lunch. Took a 2 mile walk. Grabbed some BBQ stuff for tomorrow. Not sure when she'll be back so will probably just be cooking for me. Also picked a book at the store Just something for fun vs the self help I've been reading.
Wife came home yesterday. She met some people from her group chat while in Vegas. They bought her flowers. Don't think I've ever heard so much vile resentment and contempt from her. Not sure if that really even has anything to do with me. I reached out and spoke to her family shes been seeing in Vegas over the weekend. Mostly because her uncle is the only male perspective I can get that truly knows us both. Found out that hes pretty baffled as well and has been trying to get her to reconsider. It's funny cause every time she told me she told someone knew I asked if they said anything like that and she always said no. Some of them I get but others shocked me. Everyone I told who knows us was stunned and then instantly asked if there was anything that could be done to be fix it. So guessing some his nagging could be apart of the problem too in regards to her mood.
Speaking with him and a few other people this weekend though seems to have given me some sort of new perspective. I'm hurting much less today. And her actions have barely affected me today. I really can't do anything about any of it. I know that's what I've been being told for months but it's so hard to truly grasp honestly I could revert back tomorrow who knows. I just feel like it's too much to keep holding on. Not to my want to reconcile that is still there and strong but to cling to hope that change will be here soon. I can't say that I'm doing a great job being cheery and aloof because literally everything I say is a problem for some obituary reason or another. But I'm not apologizeing and I'm not arguing I just continue my thought unphased if she wants to find fights she can do it herself. We made dinner enjoyed a little TV which for the first time in awhile I was actually enjoying and talking about throughout like I useto. My wife use to hate that but she also use to say it would be okay if I just paused it first. I never remembered to and it use to bug me, to me we weren't there for the show really it was about having a catalyst to bond and discuss. Who cares if we missed most of it if we talked for 45 min. I took the time to pause it every time now though. For the most part she talked with me and didn't say anything else about it bothering her.
After I asked her if she had transferred money for her trip. I had told her when she left we would balance up make a payment and remove my account on her card when she came back. My checking was a joint account for bills so all the cards pay from it. Our cards are used only as cash not credit. So you use your card it either comes off bill money already in the account or you transfer what you spent. Again instantly a fight about how she hadn't done it yet im not a child. I told her it's cool we can take a day or two but I want my account off. She finally agrees and it's done.
She goes to her room for school. And I take off for another 2 mile walk. It was a beautiful night. I hope I manage to keep this weight off and lose more. I know how dangerous it will be as a lot of it was lost due to me not eating during the worse of this and that tends to come back with a vengeance. 100+ degrees the next few days it's gonna suck. Like I said all this could be gone tomorrow and I could be right back where I've been but today I feel good.
One of the things her family told me was regardless of what's going on right now I'm still my God son's godfather and always will be. Regardless of what my wife thinks or feels I'm welcome at his birthday next month and I should come. He's turning 5 it's a pretty big milestone. He'll be starting kindergarten now. Crazy how time flys just a few years ago he was a toddler being ring bearer at my wedding. Being held in my arms because he couldn't sit still while I promised to love my wife forever. Drove his parents nuts but we didn't care he was just being a kid. Feels like yesterday. Now he talks all the time and has the most interesting thoughts. That really meant alot. I'm not sure what I'm doing yet. But I think I'll try to go.
Wellll like I said feeling come and go. Been anxious today. Wife went to her mother's for awhile. When she came back she said she was going there tomorrow to swim with kids. It's been 3 digits this week. Asked if she cared if I came wanted to cool down see the kids. She said I guess not which then lead to when are telling them I don't want to have these fake interactions anymore. I said whenever, we could do it tomorrow. Which then lead so what were to pretend and then say it or it's just to be awkward after. I said I don't it's up to you if don't want me there just say so. I've been pretty vocal I'd rather tell our families together if that's what we're doing. She doesn't believe hut I do care for her family and sure maybe there's no chance of staying friendly but I still want to have face and be there. Let them know I love them at least one last time. I thought she'd want that with mine as well but she refusing to talk with me there either. Needless to say these conversations spiraled into to good relationship talk. So yeah another strike for me. Not sure if anyone is still reading my stuff but good luck to the rest of you. Starting to feel like I'll never be able to do this.
i tell her I don't want that and im not sure how she's going to manage unless she stays with someone. She says shell figure it out it's not my problem. I ask if she would want help moving, she says no I don't want to rely on you for anything anymore.
Hi Illidin,
If you don't want her to move out, don't help her move out.
I start explaining how that would be unwise on my part, that sounds simple but what happens when I do this now and in 6 months when I truly no longer matter and you want to file a divorce and take half of what's left too.
I explain for awhile longer that I'm not sure how I feel about this. That it isn't just about us splitting like it was 3 years ago, were married and with come all kinds of ramifications. You could come after more money, the house, fail and default on bills or rent and hurt both of credits. It's a lot to ask without any paperwork and I deserve to protect myself also.
Good for you holding firm! That's a win. Leaving it at "Let me think about that." was probably better than sharing your feelies and worries about ways she could cheat you. I forget--have either of you filed for divorce or legal separation? If not, consider that doing so would afford you financial protections should she go on a spending spree and then want to re-divide the money or other assets. Hang in there!
Well nothing quite like getting your wife's car for a second and noticing a bag with your wedding lingerie in it. Which you specifically asked to have give back since i didn't want to think about her in it. An entire trunk full of clothes ive bought her but no it had to be the one I asked her to have some respect for.
She has been having an affair, what makes you think she’s going to “respect” you by not wearing her wedding lingerie ?
I guess I'm just naive and stupid for believing in any kind of common decency in people as a whole.
Anyway. Needless to say yesterday went to [censored]. Big fight she stormed off cane back late haven't talked to me at all but then again I don't think she would have said anything to me in the last month if I wasn't talking first. Spent most of my day out running around. All and all it was okay.
Today I'm just not engaging I don't know what else to do anymore but that. Went to my parents and the gun range. Just been watching TV since I got back. Not sure how I feel anymore. I wouldn't call it empty I don't think but it's not strong in any kind of emotion. One day at a time I guess.
I've been away from the board several days, so I'm trying to catch up.
I've not been in your shoes, and all I can do is empathize. When I read your posts about the interactions with your W, it reminds me how much I disliked staying in the same room as my H. This, of course, was after my "cyber-cheating". Isn't that what your W called it? Like your W, I was turned off to everything my H said & did. The WW's head space is so messed up. It's another reason for stressing you need to detach, give plenty of space, and time.
My concern is for you, and maybe b/c I can relate to your need to interact vocally. However, I can't stress enough that it is not going to help your relationship with your W, currently. Should the M be saved, then you can resume, but you may need to tweak a few things.
In the meantime, you may need to put this particular pleasure on hold. I'll be very blunt. Most WW accounts show she is not interested in what he has to say, especially when it does not concern her. As much as you desire to see her return to her old self, she's not ready.
As your community begins to resume its normal activities, maybe you'll consider participating in some like-minded discussion groups. For example (and it's only an example), you could attend a group supporting/encouraging the LBS. I don't mean a couple's class, but other LBS who want to save their M. Another example, could be those who are working to lose weight, exercise together, encourage each other, etc. It seems you need an emotional outlet, as well as receiving encouragement. You are verbally social, so find something where you can interact this way. Maybe hang out with other guys who enjoy watching sports, or talking politics, or whatever. I totally understand your need to have these interactions with your spouse.........and, I'm not suggesting you jump to the polar opposite and never speak. Here's the thing you need to avoid, replacing your wife with another woman. You get some type of emotional need met by this verbal interaction, to the point you get frustrated when you don't get it. Therefore, your weak spot will come through another woman being so willing to hang on to every word you say. Do you see what I'm saying? Don't think for a second there's not a female out there ready to pounce on that opportunity. If I had a nickle for every LBH who immediately rebounded with another woman........well, I'd be wealthier than I am now.
I'm sorry if you've mentioned this previously, but have you considered IC for your anxiety? Do you take medication? I can't remember if this is an ongoing problem, or if it started after you discovered your W's inappropriate conduct.
If you were the spouse who nurtured the MR the most, then it must feel foreign to consider any other way of being a husband. It's obvious, to me, that your W highly resents you asking her questions, checking to make sure she's done this & that. I'm guessing you are the one who thinks ahead, and you are detailed. You want to take care of her, and that's why you ask if she'll need help moving, etc, etc. I'll bet you were the one to take care of budgeting, keeping up with house maintenance, pretty much everything else. You've probably rescued her many times over the years, however, you didn't mind too much, b/c it was your way of showing that you cared. Am I anywhere close? If so, then you might have more anxiety in letting go or adjusting in these areas, but I hope not. My guess is that your W feels you "mother" her. After becoming wayward, she resents it even more. It's difficult for me to explain, b/c there is nothing about the WW that makes sense to the logical thinking male. One minute she expects you to rescue her, and the next minute, she wants you to stay out of "her" business. The LBH must feel as though he is walking a tightrope.
I said all of that to suggest you do some deep thinking about how you can refrain from being quite as "helpful". Now, don't go off the deep end, like some newcomers tend to do. Stay balanced. I simply want you to think about all the ways you have taken care of her, and ask yourself what would she have done without you. By taking care of her, I mean that you ran the ship, which included her. I started to say to think about the ways you've taken care of her that didn't fall in the normal range of what most of us see as the husband's role. These days, it doesn't seem that simple anymore. I'm getting too far away from my main point, so let me see if I can pull it back.
The LBH has to stop being Mr. Fixer and let his WW figure things out for herself. In other words, if she wants to leave the marriage and have a life separate from him...then she has to put on her big girl panties and stop relying on him to run to her rescue whenever she is faced with a dilemma. Maybe you see it as no problem, but I'm wondering just how much this ties to your codependency.
One more thought before I close. During this time, you may want reassurance that your relationship with friends and in-laws won't change. I encourage you to not press it right now. Her folks may feel bombed shocked, and may be totally disgusted with her, but at the end of the day......they are "her" family. They may not support her decision, but they are her blood. So, just give them some room and time to digest some this rotten mess. It's horrible for everyone. I realize you want to keep things like they were, but I've read lots of stories where it caused more problems for everyone in the end (usually due to the WW's jealousy). Make sense?
Yes, tell the kids together.......unless you are fine with her telling them this is a decision that both of you have made (to divorce), b/c that's how she'll present it. As for telling the parents
together? I can't help but think that you are in denial about how this is going to play out, should it come to that point. Plus, I'm wondering why you are so quick to accept being one of her friends on the side, if you can't be her husband. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but do you see the two of you spending time together, once she's divorced you? For instance, having dinner together and watching a little TV? Do you see the entire family hanging out together, after a divorce? I'm not suggesting you become enemies. I'm just trying to see from your point of view.
((hugs))
One more thought before I close. During this time, you may want reassurance that your relationship with friends and in-laws won't change. I encourage you to not press it right now. Her folks may feel bombed shocked, and may be totally disgusted with her, but at the end of the day......they are "her" family. They may not support her decision, but they are her blood. So, just give them some room and time to digest some this rotten mess. It's horrible for everyone. I realize you want to keep things like they were, but I've read lots of stories where it caused more problems for everyone in the end (usually due to the WW's jealousy). Make sense?
Yes, tell the kids together.......unless you are fine with her telling them this is a decision that both of you have made (to divorce), b/c that's how she'll present it. As for telling the parents together? I can't help but think that you are in denial about how this is going to play out, should it come to that point. Plus, I'm wondering why you are so quick to accept being one of her friends on the side, if you can't be her husband. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, but do you see the two of you spending time together, once she's divorced you? For instance, having dinner together and watching a little TV? Do you see the entire family hanging out together, after a divorce? I'm not suggesting you become enemies. I'm just trying to see from your point of view.
I understand what your saying Sandi and your right I may be causing more problems by reaching out to them but I don't really have anyone else to reach out to. I do my best not to talk about us when I see our family or friends its not about that anymore I just want somewhere to feel good for a minute, to have a normal conversation. I also know that eventually I will lose "her" family there will probably be no getting around that in the long run. I know that without being told but I guess for right now in this moment I just want to cherish what little time I have left with them. Everyday it feels like that time is going to be less and less. I've known these people since I have 14 years old its hard to just not have them anymore. Especially her little brother and sister they were only 2 weeks and 9 months old respectively when I met them. They don't even know a world without me and they will always be like blood to me. It hurts so much to know there will be a time where I never see them again.
I'm not sure what life will be like after this if that is where it goes. I want my wife to be my wife of course but I'm not sure that I want her gone from me forever either. Being her friend isn't something I would hate, its just something I'm not sure I can tolerate even with time. That doesn't mean part of mean doesn't want that as a last resort though. That may change I dont know. This is a time of great uncertainty for me more so than ever before.
There isn't too much to update over the last 10 days I guess. I've been trying to spend time out when I can. Most everyone who knows us now knows what is happening. I dropped off graduation gifts to our cousin and a old friend's of ours sister. As with most people they couldn't even begin to understand why I was there alone. How this could be happening. My wife never spoke to anyone we were both close to about how she was feeling over the years and the few friends she did speak to it was momentary rants about a specific incident. She was honestly never very good at communicating. Maybe that's why these online groups made it so much easier for her to be open. She didn't have to worry about the face to face or the judgment, after all she is in a very specific place made specifically to shelter like minded individuals, everyone there is supportive of everything she wants right now. But that is me just putting my own beliefs into a situation, I can never fully understand what she feels or thinks.
She applied to an apartment a couple days ago. There nothing to suggest that she won't get it. So by next month she will likely be gone. In some ways that is probably for the best but obviously coming home to an even emptier house than before will be hard. I know for sure know that there is someone more serious to her and that there has been since at least the beginning of may. She made plans to meet up with him a least a few times, including one trip out with our little brother and sister but he flaked or they fell through. Which I find kinda messed up since this is just some guy she met in a sex chat that shes never met face to face but thought it was okay to have these kids there. I won't get into the details of how I know I'm sure quite a few of you know the rabbit hole I've been going down the last few months. Im weaning myself off that rabbit hole, I found it was harder to go cold turkey than I thought. It doesn't matter as much anymore though I've more or less found what I was looking for. Now that I know though, now that I see how it isn't just the pure validation and ego boost this started as I feel more calm I guess. I've reached a part where I know I can probably not stop the inevitability of a PA anymore. If that is even what you want to consider it being that our marriage is just a piece of paper and ink at this point. That's not to say i'm past anything or feel any better. Just that I really feel as though I have no other recourse than to let life just play out and hope for the best. That is what I have been being told from the beginning that this was always last resort. If I had been able to handle that better from the start maybe I could have actually made an impression that mattered early on, maybe not who can say. When I told the last group of people why I was alone when I came by I didn't even cry this time, every other time I broke down getting it out.
Of course none of that realization of the present or hope to refocus myself means that the rainstorm of life as become any less. On Saturday I had terrible pain in gut thought I was having a heart attack. It eventually went away and then returned later that night. When I went to my wife legitimately fearful something was wrong, she was of course more annoyed than concerned. Wrote it off as likely just bad heartburn and it did subside shortly after she asked me to leave her room. Something special about the pain you feel when your number one confidant in times of need basically doesn't care if you may be dieing in front of her. The pain was gone until about mid day Sunday. It was much worse this time to the point I could barely concentrate and I thought I was going to vomit from how intense it was. This time she managed to have a little better conversation, still no compassion, and helped me to point out that pain was more under my ribs then in my chest and she decided it was likely a gallbladder attack. She reluctantly took me to the doctors. With all the stuff going on no one in allowed into our offices except for patients so there I was with the worst pain of my life all alone and without even so much of a rub of the shoulder or it'll be alright when I left her. She didn't even stick around in the car. went over to a friends house while I was there. I couldn't resist myself to send a few texts about how it all made me feel. I'm sure that did nothing except maybe more damage but I had to get those emotions out. After a number of hours and weird drives with my wife back and forth to doctors and outpatient centers it was determine to be a gallbladder attack and that I had a decent number of gallstones. I have to surgery sooner rather than later. This will be the first surgery I've ever had and will have to do it without her. That is very hard to accept but I have to. Again I know she basically complained and treated me like a burden to all her new friends. Literally complaining that she was stuck being a chauffeur today. As I said earlier I'll be ending that dark hole I've been in not worth it to see anymore. So life kinda [censored] even more right now, I'm afraid to eat and having a hard time figuring out what I can eat in the meantime. Soon I'll have surgery but still haven't heard from surgeon to make an appointment. Worse of all this may ruin my trip to Vegas next week for our god son's 5th birthday. If nothing else it wont be the same with my new diet restrictions. That was going to be the last big thing as a whole family after that it will likely all flatten out as I settle into the new normal of my life.
Maybe someday there will be a chance for us again but I don't know when if ever. For now all I can do is try to make myself happy and let her do her own thing. I don't talk much to her anymore mostly just hi and bye. We went out to get food last night because I was going anyway and I knew she hadn't eaten so just wanted to be considerate and see if she wanted to get her self something. We spoke a little about work and she told me that she applied to the apartment. Even all of that was because I asked how things were. She doesn't talk to me ever unless shes looking for something. Here's to hoping for the best!
I'm really sorry to hear about your health situation. Hope you can have the surgery soon and be on the road to good health again. This type thing feels compounded when you don't have emotional support. Do you have family that live nearby?
I read your post and could see the emotional pain you have about losing everyone that was connected through your W. I wish I knew what to say that would make you feel better. (((hugs)))
When you told of how cold and unconcerned she was about your gallbladder attack, and wouldn't even hang around the doctor's office.........I was nodding my head and thinking, "That's just like a wayward W!" You were closer to the stark reality than you probably realized when you said she seemed more annoyed than concerned that you could be dying. There's nothing colder than the heart of a WW.
I hope you will keep us updated about your surgery. Do you have a friend that could be with you, and drive you home from the hospital?
Thanks Sandi I appreciate the support. It's all very hard to deal with but nothing else I can do
Surgery is now scheduled for the 25th. Just finished discussing it with my boss. Originally they wanted to do the 18th but this inconvenience doesn't feel worth it to miss my trip. As it is I am forced to cut it short because I have to be back in time to covid testing as a requirement for surgery.
My parents are in town. They will be able to take me and I will likely recover their as well. I don't think my wife will be willing to caretake for me. She won't say no I think but I don't want the additional pain of the half hearted attempt.
Strange night. Wife got denied on her application because she has a mortgage with me which gives her 900 dollars of debt. She was upset wouldn't tell me at first but she sounded like she was going to cry so I asked her what was wrong. She told me I had literally told her the night before when she said she applied that it was possible the mortgage could screw her on debt ratio and if she had considered that. She went from sounding like she was crying to angry instantly and asked if I would co sign her apartment. I was basically jaw on floor from this question. I told her no and it turned into a whole thing of me being selfish etc etc. Sometimes this stuff is really crazy.
I hope you gave her a firm "no", and then listened and validated?
Or did you defend, deflect, reason, etc?
I tried but mostly just got yelled at and hung up on. (She was at her mothers when she told me).
Good job saying "No". It's your job to solve your caretaker problem and you have. It's her job to solve her apartment problem. Being partner-less is not as care-free as it seems on the outside.
I tried but mostly just got yelled at and hung up on. (She was at her mothers when she told me).
Sometimes in life we get yelled at. The mistake you made was letting her hangup on you. Next time she starts yelling, calmly say "I will not tolerate you speaking to me that way." Then hangup.
Not too much to report. Had another gallbladder attack. That hurt. Left a feeling like a knife stabbing me for days after every time I moved. I noticed my wife came to ask how I was doing that time she's also been a little nicer in general last couple of days. She did also ask me about the surgery and took an interest in me for the first time in I don't know how long just before she asked for more financial help though so yeah. Who knows why maybe things aren't going as well with her new guys, maybe she got good news on the apartment. I'm really just not putting any emotion into anything these days. I've kinda been back in the rollercoaster, for a little bit there I felt okay was smiling most days and my mind drifted a little less. Last couple of days feel like maybe I'm sliding back into depression. But at least it's not denial.
I reached out to see what options I had on a refinance for the house to put it in my name. It may not be what I want but at the end of the day she wants out of here and I don't really feel like she will ever work through her stuff with her here. She blames me for every second she can't leave that I'm trapping her. As if I'm the one that made her make a life bonding decision to have this mortgage. In reality I was terrified of it because it wasn't really the house I wanted but it was a decision that had to happen in days due to financial restrictions at the time. At least for right now I want the house because it's more secure than any of my other options. So we will see how that goes I suppose. if she ever does come around at least our home will still be here waiting maybe. I feel kinda like I need to have some sort of control on something for myself. Maybe knowing that this house is mine will help, although I'd still need to get a seperation agreement in writing that it will stay that way. Otherwise at the end of the day I'm just helping her get everything she wants while she gets to hang onto the financial interest in the future.
Hope everyone else out there is doing alright.
Have terrible anxious feeling today. Just woke up feeling like the world was on fire. Broke down a bit getting ready. Really though these more extreme emotions were behind me a little. Yesterday I certainly wasn't the happiest person but I was level. Here's hoping I can calm down throughout the day.
Emotional roller-coaster is real. It is part of the process.
Feeling has been going strong all day. Sounds like wife got the apartment. I was preparing myself for it but it hurt so bad. I cried for awhile. I just can't take all of this. Fun fact group, move will likely happen while I'm gone recovering for surgery how lucky for her she can move in peace and I can come back from surgery to an empty lonely house that we struggled for 10 years to earn so we could start our family. Sometimes I just don't know what I'm doing at all anymore.
I know what you're doing. You're on the cusp of learning how to enjoy living in an empty, lonely house. There are a lot of upsides to it, which you'll see in time. It is about to be a space that you alone control. You'll come to embrace it. Sure, you'll shed tears coming home the first few times knowing that she's not there and you'll shed some more tears waiting for her to walk through the door from time to time. But that passes.
I know our situations definitely stink, but the empty, lonely house is a huge perk. You can watch what you want whenever you want to. You're not stuck in some strange apartment you hate and you'll be at your most comfortable. And there are so many opportunities to GAL at home by yourself!
-Spiral
Going into surgery. I'll try and update more once I'm out about how things have been. How the Vegas trip went etc. Wish me luck guys.
Going into surgery. I'll try and update more once I'm out about how things have been. How the Vegas trip went etc. Wish me luck guys.
I'll keep you in my prayers.
Well surgery went well. Recovery is a pain. Feel like someone beat my gut with a bat lol. Gonna be more or less laid up for a couple more days or so. Im sure the wife is loving me being away. She took off to the creek yesterday with some friends.
So last week I went up to Vegas for our Godsons birthday. It a trip full of ups and downs. I Havent been to Vegas without my wife in since I was about 12 years old so getting there was just full of emotion and really broke. After I got to her uncles place and started to relax things better. Had an alright day with everyone that first night. Talked laughed, all and all decent. When my wife got in eventually she greeted me with a "What are you still here for" it was about 11 at this point so that was fun and basically set the mood for the rest of time around her. The next couple days I spent most of my time with them my wife was staying there so she was basically always around. The birthday Party felt very awkward most of her family seems to not be talking to me now so that cool and my sister called me to let me know water heater was spraying water so that was fun. Friday I was hanging around and when they made plans to go to the grocery store I planned to tag along and then leave from I had plans to meet a friend for dinner that night. I asked my wife if she cared as she had been particularly cold the last few days and she straight up told me leave so I figured whatever I'll just go then. Text her aunt that she had made it clear I she didn't want me there and I just wouldnt be coming back that day maybe not at all since I was supposed to be leaving in the morning. Went back to the hotel played some cards and then drove across town to our friends place. My wife has known this girl since middle school but we were all somewhat close for years. Wife hasn't spoken 1 word to her since everything started so I'm not sure whats that is about. I wanted to check in as we haven't seen each other in about 3 years and her daughter just had birthday the month before. All and all that night was the best time I had on the trip. Only planned to eat and tal for a bit maybe a couple hours. Didn't leave until 11 hours later with the sun coming up. We caught up, joked, went through all the [censored] Ive been dealing with. Her family has always been there for us even took in my wife when we were young and her mother broke her nose and kicked her out. Im lucky to still have them in my life. Well was much too tired to drive home after that so stayed another night. Spent basically the whole last day at the apartment. It was all kinds of boring and strange. No one really spoke to anyone wife, as with at home, was basically just on her phone talking to her guys the whole trip. The most frustrating part was watching her disappear with her aunt and uncle about a 3rd of the time to smoke. They have always done that drove me and the wife nuts how often they just left the kid alone and then didn't really engage him when they were back inside. We always made it a point to keep him engaged when we were with him. But this is now 3 days after his party and no one has played with any of the games he was bought, or the legos, and the video game console took me basically begging for days to let me set up for him. It was strange not to have my partner supporting me with him. Kids was always the most important thing to her since I met her. Now she barely seems to care at all. I guess my choice to wait really was for the best I always knew she would be the best mother but now I have no idea what she would be with them. Left super early the next morning as I had to get covid testing done for surgery. All and all I dont know a luke warm trip. Im glad I went. Did okay on the tables and hit $1000 on the slots waiting for her grandparents to come down for breakfast. Trying to maintain my diet was nightmare and I basically didn't eat most of the trip.
So surgery as you know my wife basically didn't offer to help at all. She even acted like I was being selfish for hoping she might take off work and help. She didn't have enough time to even do that. Well that didn't stop her from staying home 2 days because her allergies were acting up though so I guess so much for that. The day of she came in the morning and kinda asked some basic questions. Talking to her broke me down so I walked away. She followed me and asked why I was being standoffish I really wasn't answered her questions as best I could before I couldnt anymore. She said she was done talking and had planned to give me a hug an what not before I walked off. I said I didn't know she had more to say thought she was done. She gave me the most lazy unconcerned one handed hug and said it would be fine and she cared for me. I didn't really respond was having a hard time with emotions. She asked what I wanted form her and I said nothing its fine. She left after that I went to my parents to drop off my stuff and wait to go. Being alone at the surgery sucked all kinds of boring. Went in about an hour later than scheduled so spent about 2 hours doing nothing laying in a bed with an iv. Was pretty terrified when I got wheeled in and then I woke up and it was over. Pain has been bad but doable. I haven't touched the opiods. i hate drugs and I haven't needed them. A little Tylenol here and there and ive been fine. Wife text me on her lunch and I just left it unresponded she tried again a little later again Ignored. She tried again after work and apparently reached out to my mom as well who told her I was sleeping. Never bothered to call or come by and see me in person if she was really concerned. I finally told her I was alright but sore. Didn't hear from her again at all. Saw her leave the house on our cameras the next day with camping gear later on she posted pictures of her at the creek. That got me in a place to think she would leave not knowing what complications I might have. Just so little concern. Can't really move and have spent most of the time talking to some friends. Doing some spiraling and most of what Ive come out with all of it is I don't think I care anymore. I just don't want this pain anymore I don't know what that means for me in the furture. But I think the plan is to sell the house. I dont want to fight for it anymore and be stuck with memories and a house I didn't really want for the next 20 years. If the market crashes I'll be stuck forever so this is my last chance to get out. Maybe not divorce right now as its a process but I think Im going to move forward with a legal separation and protect myself before she moves out and starts living pay check to pay check. I dont know how I can rebuild trust even if she comes back. Ive learned a whole lot more things while being confined to this bed and spiraling. Being a computer tech by trade has its advantages when it comes to spying. I was basically no contact since we came back from vegas except for last night when I told her lets sell the house she accused me of being a dick for no real reason. I guess that will continue being the plan in the near future beyond business. My friends are pissed about what I have already conceited and really dont want me to do legal separation and thus keep supporting her on taxes and with benefits from my job. I don't really care that much I guess. I still want my wife back but this women isn't my wife.
Just an update guys. Pain is about half what it was yesterday. So recovery is moving forward quick. Wont be able to lift anything over 10 pounds for a least a month but hopefully will be walking being normal in another couple days.
Not a word from wife at all of course but no surprise there.
Been bored out of my mind but doing my best to make the best of it. Exploring some new music, watching a new show I've been meaning to check out. Just trying to stay focus been wanting to change my hair so will be looking at styles today.
Hopeful everyone is doing alright out there. Looks like California is starting to close back up. Bars are being shut down again. Probably a matter of time before more is closed again.
A little late night report haha.
I feel really good today. Like myself for the first time in a really long time honestly I think since even before BD. I think I may have lost track of who that was for awhile in my marriage. While I tried to balance what it meant to be a good spouse, a provider, a caretaker, gardener etc. I just forgot who I was. What use to make me smile. How I use to joke and enjoy the moment. I keep talking about how my wife isn't the one I fell in love with and thats definitely true right now but I'm not sure when I stopped being the man my wife feel in love with all those years ago either. Of course we both grew but I stopped being even similar. Bitter and negative all the time.
I let a friend talk me into kind of a petty prank if you will. Not a big deal and it barely got a rise out of her at all. But I think its the first time since this all started that I felt like I was standing for myself. For the fact that the cheating, the disrespect, the cake eating just isn't alright. Its not something I can stand for morally. Its not something that will ever easily go away. This isn't really DBing I know but I wasn't really before anyway and I wasn't in a place mentally or emotionally to do it. Every time I did I just broke down. It may just be a temporary High who knows. But right now I feel like I can drop the rope and just see what happens. I can't even imagine what rebuilding trust with her could look like at this point or if its possible. But thats okay. I'll cross that bridge if it ever comes. Assuming I even still want to. Right now though I want to be able to keep smiling. I want to work on being the confident strong person I use to be, I never pursued my wife at the start. Not once in fact it was basically the opposite I pushed her away. I attracted her in a way that was like a drug she practically stalked me lol. I want to be that man again.
1 week into the surgery recovery I decided I could take any more time pent up inside. Took off to Ventura beach to get a change of scenery and sea air to clear my head. Being there alone was overall a nice experience. Got to put in an 8 mile walk and enjoy the sea for a bit. Definitely pulled back a handful of memories but after 13 years of exploring everything with my wife there isnt really any avoiding that. It was a nice break from the norm though.
The rest of the time as basically been part for the course. I no longer start conversations. Wife is mostly as distance as ever. There are some small changes here and there but I don't feel they mean anything. She stopped to ask how I was when I was packing for beach. Questioned where I was going. Asked to see my incisions. Complimented the shirt I was wearing, a shirt I had bought a couple years ago and didn't fit I was so excited to finally wear it. When I came back she asked about where I went. I wasn't sure when I left. My conversation back is usually pretty minimal thanks and small tid bits. Today I was speaking to a friend in my room for a few hours on the phone. When I answered and went to leave the living room she stopped me to talk about for a bit. Then later asked to come in and look something that I'm fairly sure wouldn't have been there. Then knocked again to tell me she was leaving. Strange behavior she hadn't cares in awhile. Aww well who knows what shes thinking.
Decided to go to my sister's to eat dinner and watch fireworks it's been a very chill and relaxing night. Hope everyone here is having a good 4th.
Hey sandi I'm doing alright.
Pretty much better from surgery at this point. Wife started moving out last week she's doing it in a painfully slow manner. I cried for about 2 days straight at the beginning. I'm just trying to focus on me as much as I can now. Haven't been contacting for about 3 weeks. Just responding to when she says she wants to come and get stuff. Been trying to stay busy. Been in Vegas since Friday visiting some friends. Trying to practice the bass I bought years ago. Looking into a language class. Reading some new books.
Overall I guess I'm still just trying to figure out what my life is. I see zero signs of anything from her. It is what it is though.
Glad to hear you are recovering.
How is PT coming? (assuming that is part of your recovery?) Keep your focus on you, your health, and what you need to do (DBing), and off of what she is doing.
I'd also recommend the LRT for your sitch. I think you have arrived at that point.
No PT for me. Just got cleared to start lifting again. Bowled a series on Sunday with virtually no pain.
I agree.
Well its been a few weeks so maybe its worth updating.
Today is my birthday I turn 29. For the past 13 years I've been woken up in the middle of the night to be wished a happy birthday from my wife. She always wanted to be the first to say something but also waited until the actual time I was born.
Its the little [censored] like that that is gonna make today hard. Otherwise it's just another day.
5 months since bomb drop in 3 days. She moved out over a month ago. I've been no contact since. Nothing changes in any way on that front. I know she's out with different guys most of the week. She has a tendency to frequent the bar that she knows my family basically live at.
I'm still just trying to focus on whatever I can. I go out and about as much as possible. Clean and work on house stuff at home. Back to regular time at the office now so that keeps me busy most of the days. I don't hurt as much all the time anymore and rarely cry like I use too. I read through a box of cards last night virtually all the years we were together. Was looking for some old ticket stubs for a frame I was putting together mostly. Its funny how devoted someone can be in the past. How easy it is to make promises and eventually break them.
For the first time in over decade I have no idea what the next year of my life is for. I have no real goals or ambitions. I really hope someday that feeling fades. That there is a purpose again.
Hope everyone else is doing well today. Thanks to any of you bothering to follow my story.
Its the little [censored] like that that is gonna make today hard. Otherwise it's just another day.
It's good to hear from you. If it was my 29th birthday, you better believe it wouldn't be just another day for me.
I hope you'll treat yourself to something you really enjoy.
I save cards, too. I don't know why, b/c I've looked at them.....maybe
once. The thing for me is when I see a card from a loved one who has passed away.......or is no longer a part of the family due to divorce......it triggers feelings of deep sadness. I have had to deal with depression most of my life, and I've learned to avoid a few activities that I
know will cause me to sink lower. Some things can't be avoided, of course, but looking through old photos or sentimental things that belonged to my loved ones, is something I can put on hold for a day when I'm not as likely to break down.
I think you said you were looking for something else when you came across the cards. You might want to consider putting them in a separate box, label it, and put it away. Just knowing it's there, should you want to look at them in the future, might help get you through this period. Just a suggestion.
I don't hurt as much all the time anymore and rarely cry like I use too.
Good for you! That is emotional progress. (((hugs)))
Now.......get out and celebrate your 29th birthday!
Today is my birthday I turn 29. For the past 13 years I've been woken up in the middle of the night to be wished a happy birthday from my wife. She always wanted to be the first to say something but also waited until the actual time I was born.
Hope you had a great birthday! Sorry W wasn't there for you this time, I'm sure there's some hurt there. But try to look back on those times with fondness while making some new memories!
5 months since bomb drop in 3 days. She moved out over a month ago. I've been no contact since.
Great, stick to it!
I know she's out with different guys most of the week. She has a tendency to frequent the bar that she knows my family basically live at.
Sounds like she's doing the GGW thing. Just maintain no contact. If your family is trying to fill you in on what she's up to, just ask them to please refrain. It's for the best if you know nothing about it. It will help you to move on faster.
I'm still just trying to focus on whatever I can. I go out and about as much as possible. Clean and work on house stuff at home. Back to regular time at the office now so that keeps me busy most of the days. I don't hurt as much all the time anymore and rarely cry like I use too.
That all sounds good and like your recovery is on the right track.
I read through a box of cards last night virtually all the years we were together. Was looking for some old ticket stubs for a frame I was putting together mostly. Its funny how devoted someone can be in the past. How easy it is to make promises and eventually break them.
Yes it is bizarre how radically people can change. Every once in a while I'll run across an old card from my XW, when I read them it just makes me wonder what happened to that person that thought the world of me and thought she would die without me. We were absolutely crazy about each other! It's just a mystery.
For the first time in over decade I have no idea what the next year of my life is for. I have no real goals or ambitions. I really hope someday that feeling fades. That there is a purpose again.
It's OK to just be in neutral for a while. There's no rule that says you've always got to have some big goals to pursue, sometimes you have to take it easy. Look at the next year as a clean slate ready for a new story to be written on it.
Happy b-day Illidin -
Yes the old habits are difficult to break sometimes. We become so accustomed to behaviors from our spouses that when they suddenly stop, it is a shock to the system.
This is completely normal. It will take awhile for those feelings to subside - but from.what you've written you seem to be on the right track. There will be good days and bad days, but you will get through it.
I agree with AS. Neutral is a good place to be if you are unsure what to do next. You have all the time in the world to figure it out now - so try not to worry too much about it.
Keep up the NC - no need to know what she is doing. Its better for you that way.
Take care - stay strong
Thanks for the birthday wishes everyone. The day was alright for the most part. Didn't do to much. Mostly cleaning my house lol. There is still so much stuff of hers still her just in the way. I'm trying to reorganize everything make it my space but its a pain to say the least not knowing what she might show up and decide to take.
My parents bought me a new sectional though to replace the couch she took and the one I always hated. I'm really happy with it. I had dinner with them and my siblings it was nice, simple.
Last few days have felt good. Work is busy. Losing another team member so our 5 man team is now down to 2 with no signs of hiring reoccurring any time soon. Had a very nice conversation today with a co worker. She helped me to see some perspectives I never considered to a few things in my life. Also said no matter what for as long as shes known me even during all of this when I hiding it and after I told her, I am always smiling. Always trying to make everyone around be comfortable. I almost didn't know what to make of that bit. Why do I smile even when my world is upside down?
But I don't mind people at work knowing anymore. I don't offer it buts its not a secret either. For a long time I couldn't get the words out without breaking and now it just is.
There is still so much stuff of hers still her just in the way. I'm trying to reorganize everything make it my space but its a pain to say the least not knowing what she might show up and decide to take.
Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but have you thought about packing her personal items and putting them in the garage or somewhere to get them out of the way? Then you could make the place look like yours, instead of his & her. It can be a statement of sorts, that your life is going forward. Whether or not you welcome that status, you can fake it till you make it.
I think it is a positive sign that you are cleaning up the place.
((hugs))
Hey guys trying to pop in every now and again to keep updating. I'm not sure if I've said but this place really did help give me an outlet I really needed during all of this. I am doing basically the same as I have been since the beginning of the month. Just kinda going through life. Not strong ups or downs really. Tomorrow is my wedding Anniversary. Right now I feel nothing in particular about that. Tomorrow may be worse than I expect though. Just trying to brace myself some for it.
In life things have been kinda chaotic. Fires are everyone in Ca. Not sure when was the last I wasn't breathing in smoke all day now . lol Had swamp cooler go out on me and had it replaced this week. A very hefty 1400 dollar bill. Pretty rough without the 2nd income that basically was only used to save for stuff like that. I fear what keeping this place might do to me financially sometimes.
Sandi, I did do just as you suggested. Basically everything is packed away and put in our spare bedroom now. She took the bed out of there anyway so its not like it does me much good for guests right now anyway. Reorganized the craft corner into a darts area and display for my tiki stuff.