Divorcebusting.com

Persistent Endurance (Part 8)

Posted By: curtis7

Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 07:19 AM

Link to Part 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2841771
Link to Part 2:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842502
Link to Part 3:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2845184
Link to Part 4:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2850893
Link to Part 5:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2857721
Link to Part 6:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2863026
Link to Part 7:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2868896

Summary to date:
W was unhappy in 2018 and probably a few years earlier about her lack of career advancement, responsibilities of being a mother and wife, and lack of connection in our MR. She became involved in an EA with OM1 (a co-worker) in August 2018. She went to an IC without my knowledge and determined that I was the cause of her unhappiness. BD and IHS in November 2018. I begged, pleaded, and became super husband. She became obsessed with her physical appearance and recapturing her youth. EA with OM1 became a PA. She met OM2 (25 year old pickup artist) in mid-November 2018 has been having a PA with him going on a year. W went deeply underground with her smartphone when I found out and confronted. W met OM3 in March 2019 on an online dating app and had an ongoing PA with him as well. W distanced herself from anyone of strong moral character and primarily interacts with a recently divorced woman that became her BFF in 2018. W bought her own house and moved out in early April 2019. We arranged 50/50 custody of our kids, S8 and D5, rotating every few days.

We attended Retrouvaille at the end of September 2019. W genuinely opened up and seemed to put forth effort. That was short-lived and she is back to her WW behavior with the OM. W was inching her way back in December 2019. WW resumed at the start of the New Year and A's continued through the end of February 2020. I was done living in an open marriage and presented her D settlement papers at the beginning of March 2020. W came to me a week later in tears asking for another month. Halfway through that month, the Coronavirus changed the way we lived. W started staying back home at our marital house 17 months post-BD and just over a year after moving out. She has not moved back in and I cannot say that we are piecing in any way.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 07:36 AM

This is a continuation from my last update in Part 7.

So while December looked hopeful, the New Year brought WW back to the forefront. W chose to spend NYE with divorced BFF rather than our family. I left her alone for much of January and February and stopped inviting her to events. The roller coaster continued as she distanced herself. She went to see an IC a couple of times, but didnít share what was discussed and I didnít ask.

We were at S9ís flag football game in late February and when I walked over to her I saw that she was texting OM3. I decided that enough was enough. I was no longer going to live in an open marriage. The next day I presented the draft D settlement to her. I was done with all of this and she knew it.

A week later she came to me in tears and started a 2 hour R talk. There a lot of details in this conversation that I may share at some point. A few highlights are that she started listening to an affair audiobook that I had sent her and that she wishes someone could just tell her what to do. I asked if she was still in contact with OM3. She said yes. She said he reached back out to her. She said he is the polar opposite of me and is ruled by emotions. She said she knows she has no future with him. She knows that no contact is required and she said the only way she could go cold turkey is to do something that would make him never want to contact her again. I asked what would that be. She said getting back together with you. She said she knows I donít have empathy for him but she feels that he is suicidal. W asked if she could have another month. I didnít answer directly. I told her that I donít trust her, that I donít trust her not to hurt me again.

I thought about it for a couple days and decided to give her the month. After all, what was another month? It would put us at 17 months to the day post-BD and just over a year living apart. I never told her I was giving her the month and continued to live my life the way I wanted. Then the Coronavirus happened.

In mid-March W texts: ďHey there are rumors that we will be on lockdown soon. I feel bad asking, but can I stay there if that happens. So we are all together? Horse, kids and all?Ē I replied ďIt would be nice to be all together again.Ē There was not much talk about it in the weeks that followed, then the lockdown order was given.

In early April, (1 year and 3 days after moving out), W came home and has been living in the guest bedroom.

W has been staying at our house for a week. We are both working remotely out of our home and assisting our kids with virtual school during the day. She goes back to her place every couple days to change out her clothes. Sheís brought some food over. At times it feels like we are a family. She cleans, trims the bushes, and helps with meals. Then goes to sleep alone. No physical contact, no explanation on what this means for us or what the future holds. I donít ask and try not to pressure.

W definitely has not moved back in. She has told me a few times in the past that she wouldnít come back and leave again, that she couldnít do that to the kids. So, I donít know what this is. Iím just going with it. Feels good to be with the kids everyday and have them here, in their home.

Two nights ago, she went back to her place to get clothes and pickup a package. She was gone for several hours. When she returned later that night she was visibly distraught. She said she had dinner with a couple that was a mutual acquaintance. The H has a psychology background and she said she was discussing a moral dilemma with him. I asked if there was anything she wanted to share with me. She replied not now, but soon. I said okay and probably had a look of displeasure on my face as I walked away. About 15 minutes later I heard her sniffling in the kitchen as she was preparing Easter eggs to color with the kids. I walked up to her and said come here and gave her a long hug. She immediately squeezed me tight and started crying lightly. I said when youíre ready to tell me, Iím here.

I came back to the board now because I need some help. Something strange is going on and I could use some advice. Two days ago I started receiving texts from an unknown number. The texts identify OM1 (co-worker) and OM3 (foul mouthed scum bag) by name and offer to provide their contact information. They say that W has not been honest with me, urge me to ask her the truth about them, and claim to have pictures. They refer to ďweĒ have this information. I ask if I know them. They replied it doesnít matter much. I asked if anyone is in danger. They replied absolutely not. The texts have continued indicating that OM1 sent a few pictures out to ďtrustedĒ people and that W didnít honor her end of the deal. They say let us know when you want the numbers and pictures.

I have not shared any of this with my W, what should I do about this?
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 08:23 AM

Hi Curtis,

Originally Posted by Curtis
They say that W has not been honest with me, urge me to ask her the truth about them, and claim to have pictures.

If I recall correctly, you desire a monogamous marriage but will accept an open marriage (e.g., you kept that horse around, and let her move in without any terms such as monogamy, transparency, etc.) You've tried many things to get to a monogamous marriage. It must be frustrating she won't offer that.

If knowledge of what your ex-wife is doing with other men excites you, ask. If not, then don't. From a practical perspective you already know she's a WW and she hasn't agreed to reconcile. In your shoes I wouldn't ask, but I also wouldn't have let her move in. Choose what's right for you.

Originally Posted by Curtis
Feels good to be with the kids everyday and have them here, in their home.

No judgement here. If this feels good to you, that's great. All's well between consenting adults.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 09:44 AM

C,

I'm glad you came back and I am really sorry you are still going through this with everything that is going on in the world. I can understand your frustration with the advice you received on here because it was completely different that what you were doing. I think you also should look at the other side and understand complete strangers were taking time out of their day to try to help you even though you never embraced DB from day 1.

Just answering your question. Why bother? At this point what can you find out? That your W is a liar? You already know this right? It's kind of like when the police go to inmates for information. What's the inmates (OM) agenda?

I think we're finding on the board that the virus is not cooperating with WWs who are in affairs.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by CWarrior
If knowledge of what your ex-wife is doing with other men excites you, ask. If not, then don't. From a practical perspective you already know she's a WW and she hasn't agreed to reconcile. In your shoes I wouldn't ask, but I also wouldn't have let her move in. Choose what's right for you.
CW, I have plenty of knowledge of these OM back in my snooping days (havenít done that again in almost 5 months). I guess Iím asking if I should show the texts to her and let her lead and decide what to do?

Originally Posted by LH19
I'm glad you came back and I am really sorry you are still going through this with everything that is going on in the world. I can understand your frustration with the advice you received on here because it was completely different that what you were doing. I think you also should look at the other side and understand complete strangers were taking time out of their day to try to help you even though you never embraced DB from day 1.
Hey LH, good to hear from you. I agree that I didnít DB the way I was advised. I see many flaws in how I reacted and chose to handle my sitch. Letting her go, working on myself, focusing on the kids, and just living my life for me worked the best.

Originally Posted by LH19
Just answering your question. Why bother? At this point what can you find out? That your W is a liar? You already know this right?
Lol, yes, of course I know about the lies. Being gaslighted for a year makes you keenly aware when others are not being honest with you. I have no interest in finding out more about her proclivities. The mind movies have been difficult enough to erase. They start to fade away, then I receive a reminder like this which triggers them back to the forefront.

My concern is that someone may be stalking her or that she is being blackmailed. Iíve received over a dozen texts from this number in a couple days. I suspect a request for money could be coming if I show interest in their information. Perhaps someone hacked her computer or phone or one of the OM sold her nude selfies as a way to get back at her for breaking off the A. Or perhaps itís one of the OM that wants me to throw her out so they get revenge or she goes back to them. Has anyone heard of anything like this before?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 11:18 AM

C,

Not your circus and not your monkeys. If you have any chance at a recon she has to hit rock bottom first.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 11:56 AM

Glad you are back Curtis. You are still giving power to other people. You give W power, you give OMs power. Stop that. Control what you can: yourself and your kids lives. Focus on that and keep DB.

W is still WW CurtŪs. Be aware of that. Command respect by showing her you are walking your road. A road of dignity.

Keep DB. Be the lighthouse.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 01:18 PM

Quote
The texts have continued indicating that OM1 sent a few pictures out to ďtrustedĒ people and that W didnít honor her end of the deal. They say let us know when you want the numbers and pictures.


Strange wording, considering there is no honor among cheaters.

Quote
They say let us know when you want the numbers and pictures.


Was the pronoun "us" actually used in the text messages?

IMHO, you need to ask yourself what do you have to gain with these phone numbers and pictures. You already know she was cheating with various men. What would you do with the numbers? Have a chat with these dishonorable men, expecting the truth? And, if there are photos circulating, I doubt you could stop it. This will only have power over you, if you take the bait.

The anonymous person sounds as if they want to remain in the shadows while feeling gratified that your WW pays the price for her hidden deeds. IDK that it would come under the heading of blackmail. To me, it sounds like something a spiteful female would do. You know, there are some people in the world that just get irked at the thought of someone "getting away" with secret, inappropriate behavior. Especially, if that it's someone they don't like. They take it upon themselves to drop hints (or more) to the blinded LBH, especially if it looks like there could be a reconciliation.......without him knowing the full story. Maybe it is a co-worker or a scorned woman.......who knows. Apparently, they seem to think if you have phone numbers and photos, you'll distribute your own brand of justice........and they get to sit back and watch the show, or the results of it.

I think if you respond, then they've got ya!
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 01:33 PM

Hi Curtis,

Nice to hear from you.

Sorry to hear where things still are but I hope you are making some progress of your own too.

I wouldn't respond to those texts. I would block the number. These texts don't tell you anything you don't already know. These texts lead you down the road of pain and attachment when you should be walking the road to salvation.

How is the progress on finding the real Curtis, the old Curtis who had fun and knew just who he was?
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
The texts have continued indicating that OM1 sent a few pictures out to ďtrustedĒ people and that W didnít honor her end of the deal. They say let us know when you want the numbers and pictures.


Strange wording, considering there is no honor among cheaters.

Quote
They say let us know when you want the numbers and pictures.


Was the pronoun "us" actually used in the text messages?

Hi Sandi! Very strange indeed. Here are the texts:

Anonymous: ďAsk your wife about OM1 and OM3. We have a bit of information that may change your mind about her, things you may not have known or things she has kept from you. If not, we have their numbers if you would like to ask them how they know W.ď
Curtis: ďMay I ask who this is and why you are offering this information now?Ē
Anon: ďDoesn't matter much. Offering this information now? A few people know....people that work with W and OM1. Ask her.Ē
Anon: ďWe both know these aren't uncharted waters for you and her. You act like you do not know she has gone off on you a few times. Ask her and see how honest she is about OM1 and OM3. She works with OM1 and OM3, we are still getting more information about him. If she doesn't tell you and OM1, we have a few pictures that may interest you.Ē
Anon: ďIf I were you, I would not tell her you know. Catch her in the act. She is telling you something different to what she is doing. We have both of their numbers if you have any questions to ask them.Ē
Anon: ďBe patient please, it'll pay off for you.Ē
Anon: ďTo catch a woman like her, you must be patient, it will pay off for you, Curtis.Ē
Anon: ďLet us guess, you can not respond because she is next to you?Ē
Curtis: ďI appreciate your concern. I need some time to think things through. Let me ask is she or anyone in my family in danger?Ē
Anon: ďAbsolutely not!Ē
Curtis: ďOk, thank you.Ē
Anon: ďShe is definitely seeing someone though. And has been for a while. You must know that. We can provide you his name, number, where he lives. Only if it matters to you.Ē
Anon: ďI guess it does not bother you that your wife is seeing another man. Puzzling.Ē
Anon: ďYou let us know when you want the pictures and numbers so you can call for yourself. Obviously she is lying to you.Ē
Anon: ďDo not say you were not told ahead of time.Ē
Anon: ďThat woman is only using you for her security.ď
Anon: ďIf you think these are messages to upset you, they are not. If W telling you 1 thing and doing another, you need to know. She is not and has not been honest with you in so long. Ask her about OM1, whom she works with, ask her about their affair. He's sent a few pictures out to "trusted" people. This has all happened when she was with you and the cat snuck out of the bag because W did not honor her end of the deal.Ē

One error in their texts is that OM3 doesnít work with her. He lives 2 hours away.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
IMHO, you need to ask yourself what do you have to gain with these phone numbers and pictures. You already know she was cheating with various men. What would you do with the numbers? Have a chat with these dishonorable men, expecting the truth? And, if there are photos circulating, I doubt you could stop it. This will only have power over you, if you take the bait.
Iíve known about these men for over a year. I have their numbers, I know where they live. I know more than I ever wanted to due to snooping. I never confronted them. I have no interest in ever dealing with them unless they are a threat to my family.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
The anonymous person sounds as if they want to remain in the shadows while feeling gratified that your WW pays the price for her hidden deeds. IDK that it would come under the heading of blackmail. To me, it sounds like something a spiteful female would do. You know, there are some people in the world that just get irked at the thought of someone "getting away" with secret, inappropriate behavior. Especially, if that it's someone they don't like. They take it upon themselves to drop hints (or more) to the blinded LBH, especially if it looks like there could be a reconciliation.......without him knowing the full story. Maybe it is a co-worker or a scorned woman.......who knows. Apparently, they seem to think if you have phone numbers and photos, you'll distribute your own brand of justice........and they get to sit back and watch the show, or the results of it.

I think if you respond, then they've got ya!
Sandi, I think you may be onto something about a vengeful co-worker. I wonder if this is an attempt to smear her and ruin her reputation at work. Maybe W has an idea of who they are and why they want to expose her. As a former WW, would you want to know this is going on behind the scenes?
Posted By: KitCat

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 02:18 PM

^^^^^ I agree. Possible co-worker trying to smear her reputation OR a love interest from OM1 or OM3??? I haven't read your whole sitch.

I would let it drop.

If you already know what is this going to do for you??? Someone is hoping to rile you up - their motivation is currently unknown but I wouldn't step in that river of stench if I were you.

Good Luck. That would certainly twist my head up for sure and not in a good way.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 04:50 PM

Hi Curtis,

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I wonder if this is an attempt to smear her and ruin her reputation at work.

If she keeps many lies and secrets, exposure is probably one of her fears.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
As a former WW, would you want to know this is going on behind the scenes?

You're NOT the Wayward Wife.

You're Curtis.

Imagine a stronger Curtis 3 months from now who's managed to kick WW out and leave her to her own dramas while he's so busy pursuing his best independent self. The type of Curtis who she or other women are eager to commit to. When he gets a text, "Hey, your ex who moved out a month ago, she's sleeping with a co-worker!!" What would that Curtis do? Channel that stronger, future Curtis in your decisions. wink
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 04:52 PM

Quote
Anon: ďI guess it does not bother you that your wife is seeing another man. Puzzling.Ē


It is phrases like this one that show you this person is trying to provoke you and not simply inform you.

Be cool Curtis.

I read your post at the end of your last thread too. I feel your pain there. I hope we can be more welcoming than that and also that I wasn't contributing to that negativity you felt. I think most people here really do want to help, but I notice myself getting angry when I read a sitch and you know how that emotion can mess things up.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 06:32 PM

Get your power back Curtis. Be yourself. Itīs about you and your children.Get your life into that.

Be strong there. Try DB. Please.

We are all team Curtis here. We try to say things the softer we can. Walk your walk man.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 07:25 PM

Curtis, those messages sound very much like someone who wants to "teach your W a lesson" for some reason. Maybe it's one of the OM's wife, or another girlfriend competing with your W for OM's affection. Or possibly a coworker. In any event I would not respond to them anymore, and you might even consider blocking them. They want to stir up drama and are hoping you'll take some kind of action. I am pretty sure you will hear from them again when they don't see the fireworks they are expecting.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 08:31 PM

Quote
It is phrases like this one that show you this person is trying to provoke you and not simply inform you.

Be cool Curtis.


I agree 100% with Ovrrnbw's statement.^^^^^^^

Quote
ďWe both know


They sound like amateurs, IMHO. Plus, so many of their texts contradict. For example, they tell you several times to ask her about it, then say, ďIf I were you, I would not tell her you know". They really want to tell you what to do, don't they? Catch her in the act, etc.

I'm inclined to think your W has shared information with someone who pretended to befriend her. Based on the way they talk about you, it's as if your W was talking to them on a daily basis......like one would do with a friend/co-worker. It's little bits of information they've gathered over time, not all at once. They may have approached her about the rampant gossip at work. I've known that to happen, where one woman will act very concerned and proceed to tell the W what's being said at work. Then the emotional W shares her side of the "truth".

Rest assured this pair is not concerned for your feelings or your MR. They just want your W to pay, for whatever reason. I don't know what they mean by your W did not honor her end of the deal.......except, it alludes to someone wanting revenge. They seem cowardly, IMHO. Apparently, they don't want to be identified.

Quote
I have no interest in ever dealing with them unless they are a threat to my family.


I can appreciate your concerns. These days, you never know who you are dealing with. I know it's easy for outsiders to suggest what to do. I hope you will not mention your concern for the safety of your family, b/c it gives them a greater sense of power. If it gets too rough, contact someone that can give your legal advice in how to handle it.

They are definitely trying to goad you. And again, they sound like females, just in the way they talk.

Quote
Sandi, I think you may be onto something about a vengeful co-worker. I wonder if this is an attempt to smear her and ruin her reputation at work. Maybe W has an idea of who they are and why they want to expose her.


Well, they want to expose her to you, b/c they want you to do something that they can't. At least, they don't feel they can do it.......and remain covert. That causes me to think it is someone who stands to lose favor or status if they were outed as the bad guys who ruined your W's reputation at work....or elsewhere.

Quote
As a former WW, would you want to know this is going on behind the scenes?


You asked me as a former WW, and I'll have to tell you honestly that I would want to know.....period. Whether I was wayward or next thing to a saint, I would want to know that these people were out for revenge......and that they were trying to go through my H to get it. I know, there is probably room for argument of why you shouldn't tell her, but I'm not even going to address it. I can only think of how I would feel if my H knew this..... and didn't warn me about it. I don't see how it would make things much worse, by showing her the messages. It may not make things better, as for as saving the M, but I don't think it would get worse.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 09:01 PM

Welcome Back Curtis

So my question would be how do they have your number ? Not sure how it works in the US, but in the UK its not straight forward to find a number unless you publish it ( businesses etc ) or the person got it from WW cell..

Pretty sure it was on one of your threads i mentioned that the LBS underestimates the damage / thread from the friends / best friend of the WW.... In your case we know her best mate is a nasty piece of work.. I'm wondering if its her divorced best mate.. She has done nothing postive to assist in your relationship and maybe she is worried about losing her party animal friend - her solution.. Try and stir up the hornets nest. I assume she also has your cell number ?

Back to your sitch. Glad you have started to repost - often wonder how you are getting on...

Not sure why you allowed WW back into the house though ? Looks a bit weak IMO... What i also dont get is the fact she went out and visited people / still goes back to her house for clothes ? I'm assuming then that you are not in total lockdown, or she is flouting the rules ? Seems she wants it both ways ?
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/13/20 09:22 PM

MrBrside,

skip tracing isn't too complicated here at least. I saw a strange number calling my W and quickly found it was OM's parents landline or cell, can't remember.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 06:01 PM

Major development last night. I was sitting with W on the pool deck playing a game with the kids. A truck pulled into the driveway, S9 ran out to tell us. As I went to the window I saw a truck backing out, revving their engine, then burning rubber as they sped off. My W received a text and had a look of fear on her face. I asked her who was that? She said that was the moral dilemma I was working on telling you about. It was OM3.

She told me she tried breaking it off with him for good last Saturday. Apparently heís been trying to contact her relentlessly since then. She had met with her psychology friend to understand how to end it. She thought she could let him down softly and get closure. The psychologist told her that firm no contact and stating as such repeatedly in no uncertain terms was needed with someone with his personality and attachment. I then showed her the texts Iíve been receiving as I thought they were related.

OM3 started calling and texting her and wanted her to meet him at her separation house. I told her that if she leaves, donít bother coming back. I then asked if he was armed and she said yes. I told her sheís not going anywhere alone. She was on the phone with him for about 10 minutes fumbling through an ill-prepared no contact speech. I could tell he was trying to reason with her and she wasnít firm enough. Eventually she started repeating it was over and hung up. Calls and texts continued until she blocked his number. Then, I started receiving texts on my phone from the anonymous number confirming it was OM3. First text said ďCurtis youíre her puppet, we all are.Ē He then started sending illicit pictures of the two of them together. I didnít open as I donít need the mind movies. He tried calling and left a voicemail. I deleted without listening. Wasnít going to give him power over me, so I blocked his number.

I asked W if she wanted to call the police as I felt there was a threat of danger and so did her girlfriends that she notified. She asked if I could call. I was looking up what to say, then I told her she needed to make the call. This is something she needed to do on her own. She made the call and filed the report. They said an injunction for a temporary restraining order could be filed against him at the courthouse the next day.

I listened for a couple hours where she was trying to piece together how she could allow it to get to this point. She told me if I wanted the divorce, she would understand and I could have it. I replied I donít want to think about that right now. I just continued to listen and she said how sorry she was for getting us into this situation. W said he called her 50 times one day earlier this week and that he asked her to marry him a few days ago.

This morning W called her boss and HR to notify them that OM3 may try to contact her work. She also called her dad and informed him what happened and that she was having an affair. She made these calls without my recommendation.

In the past couple hours, OM3 has started texting me from another anonymous number. The messages gave explicit details on their sexual relationship and her lies to him and me. He also sent a video that I refused to download and watch.

I have not responded. Would everyone agree that the best response is no response?

OM3 appears to be extremely devastated and is lashing out for any form of revenge. Perhaps heís trying to get me to throw her out in hopes sheíll come crawling back. I think he is panicking and looking for any way to regain control over her. She told me he has a history of pursuing married woman. I told her they are easy targets to victimize and she agreed. W said that when our kids were exposed to this last night and were scared, she knew it had to be ended for once and for all.

Would this be considered rock bottom?

How do we get this monster out of our lives?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 06:51 PM

C,

The amount of destruction a unfaithful spouse can do can never be underestimated. Iím sorry your boys had to go thru that last night.

I have to be honest with you. When I read that last sentence I wasnít sure who you were talking about. That speaks volumes.

I thought that was sweet of her to offer you a divorce and say that you can have it. Like she or anybody has a choice.

As for your question. Yes I would say this is the definition of rock bottom but something tells me this may be a typical Saturday night. If she hasnít learned a lesson from this then she probably never will.

Protect your boys at all cost Curtis. My heart goes out to those boys.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
The amount of destruction a unfaithful spouse can do can never be underestimated. Iím sorry your boys had to go thru that last night.
Itís amazing how so many around them can see it and yet they are surprised and never envisioned it could happen to them. Eerily similar to when the LBS is blindsided with the BD and others may have seen it coming.

Quote
I have to be honest with you. When I read that last sentence I wasnít sure who you were talking about. That speaks volumes.
Good one and point taken. I need to once again decide if I am even interested in R.

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I thought that was sweet of her to offer you a divorce and say that you can have it. Like she or anybody has a choice. As for your question. Yes I would say this is the definition of rock bottom but something tells me this may be a typical Saturday night.
I hope this is her final rock bottom. Almost a year and a half in limbo. If she has a relapse or leaves again, her offer would be very hard to pass up.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 07:30 PM

WOW Curtis, that is some scary stuff. Yes I definitely think you are doing the right thing in not responding to OM3. And yes I agree that it is very likely he's trying to break the two of you up in the hopes she'll go crawling back to him. Do you have a security system and cameras? If not, look into it ASAP. I highly recommend Ring, it's relatively cheap and really good. I have several of the indoor and outdoor cameras tied to the alarm system and the image quality is fantastic and the motion detection notifications are instant on my phone. Great peace-of-mind. Hopefully your W follows through on the restraining order. Once it's in place call the police immediately if she pulls another stunt like the driveway thing. Is W living with you now or still in her other place? I'm thinking she should not go back there for quite a while. If she's not under your roof then she should probably get a hotel room somewhere. Never underestimate people's propensity for violence.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 07:50 PM

I think you were smart not to look at the photos/video. My advice is that you not delete anymore voice messages, or texts. You don't have to listen, but just in case the police needs to decide there has been a threat, etc.

I don't know much about legal steps to take, but she definitely needs to get a RO, b/c of the stalking. Maybe you can get one, too, IDK. Safety for your children is most important. She has exposed them to this creep, so I would be very leery about the kids being alone with her......anywhere, but especially at her place.

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Would this be considered rock bottom?


Why do you ask? What difference does it make?

Frankly, I hope it scares the pee-water out of her!! If this doesn't shake her to the core, then I don't know what will, but that's just me. She needs to see how she has put her entire family at risk. Sometimes, it's not just one big thing that happens to jar the WW awake, but several things working together to get the same results. I remember how one of my board mentors told me about some real life situations with affair partners.......and it did play a part in shaking my fogged out brain. Getting scared is good, in some cases. It may not stop her sleeping with someone else. That remains to be seen. I hope she doesn't scratch this off as some isolated case, but realizes it comes with the territory, so to speak. It's the risk factor involved in real life that needs to slap her in the face so hard it shatters her fantasy of being single and sleeping around. Just like this OM, some guys are attracted to M women who cheat, and there is an unhealthy and/or immoral reason behind it.

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I asked W if she wanted to call the police as I felt there was a threat of danger and so did her girlfriends that she notified. She asked if I could call. I was looking up what to say, then I told her she needed to make the call. This is something she needed to do on her own.


Good job! I agree, she needed to be the one to call the police. It's fine for you to be there by her side, but for own shake......she needs to walk through this hard/scary mess she helped to create.

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She told me if I wanted the divorce, she would understand and I could have it. I replied I donít want to think about that right now. I just continued to listen and she said how sorry she was for getting us into this situation. W said he called her 50 times one day earlier this week and that he asked her to marry him a few days ago.


My suggestion is to try to put relationship talk on hold for now. This is shot to another level, IMHO, and it's about the safety of your family. It appears that she has placed herself, and maybe her family, on some level of danger......IMHO. Yesterday, I thought the texts sounded like a revengeful woman.......but overnight, it sounds more like a psychopath. I still can't figure out about "she didn't stick to her end of the deal". Whatever it is, it doesn't sound good, at the moment.

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This morning W called her boss and HR to notify them that OM3 may try to contact her work. She also called her dad and informed him what happened and that she was having an affair. She made these calls without my recommendation.


Good! It must have been hard for her, but like I said, she "needs" to do this hard stuff for her own sake. It is a small way of taking ownership for her actions. It's too easy to blame someone else, and/or get the LBH to do the work for her. So, I'm glad to see you being smart here.

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I have not responded. Would everyone agree that the best response is no response?


I wouldn't respond. I would give let the police look at the texts, and ask for their advice. These days, stalking is taken more seriously than in previous years.

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How do we get this monster out of our lives?


Talk to experts who deal with this real life situation.

Please keep us updated as often as possible. ((hugs))
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 08:54 PM

Hi Curtis--wow, crazy-town, stay safe.

Originally Posted by Curtis
I told her that if she leaves, donít bother coming back. I told her sheís not going anywhere alone. I was looking up what to say, then I told her she needed to make the call.

It's great you set that boundary, and it's also great you let her call the police for her own restraining order. Do be cautious about the difference between being assertive and protective--and being controlling. E.g. "I don't want you going anywhere alone" vs "You're not going anywhere alone", or "A restraining order is a good idea but you would need to make that call" vs "You need to make that call." You're definitely doing more right than wrong. I love that she solved the problems herself and in doing so took some level of responsibility.

Originally Posted by Curtis
She told me he has a history of pursuing married woman. I told her they are easy targets to victimize and she agreed.

I'd be cautious--this shifts responsibility away from her. My partner left me, but she did not cheat on me. Similarly I left my ex-wife, but I did not cheat on her. It's not coincidental that neither of us had drinks alone at the home of a member of the opposite sex while our relationship was at a low point. Being married hardly offers a golden aegis of protection, but neither does it indicate "Victim" or "Open to suitors."
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/14/20 08:56 PM

Hi Curtis,

I feel bad for you, reading about all the turmoil going on in your life right now. I know it's hard. The only thing I can add is to take time and slow your world down. You're not ready, she's not ready, there's a crazy guy showing up at your house, the world stopped spinning with this virus...just slow it way down and focus on your fundamental life.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/15/20 02:16 PM

Curtis, YOU need to protect your kids.

Fear is not a healthy feeling for a new start...whatīs behind comes behind...

PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN
Posted By: scout12

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/15/20 08:50 PM

Agree with neffer. You should be furious that your wife has exposed your kids to this kind of situation.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/18/20 10:21 PM

You are killing me here. It's been three days, already. Can't you throw me a breadcrumb?
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/22/20 02:37 PM

I would like to start off by thanking everyone in this community for taking the time to read and respond. I have gained some truly priceless advice and it has helped me navigate through many extremely tough circumstances.

OM3 has not made further contact since my last update a week ago. I asked W how long he left her alone in their year plus A and she said 9 days. Something tells me he wonít be silent forever and will try other methods to get back in touch with her. W did not file for a TRO either since he has not resurfaced.

Both kids brought up the visit from OM3 on a few occasions in the days that followed. S9 was worried that the guy was going to come back and ram his truck through his bedroom wall. I reassured him that Iím going to protect this family and that weíll be okay. I explained to him that we win by not responding and reacting. The kids havenít brought the incident up again recently.

Over the past several days W has shared some insight on her state of mind and reflections. W said she was very angry with me and wanted something different. She said I am very logical and OM3 is completely ruled by emotions. W claims she tried to end it with him a few times since the end of last year. She kept going back to how he talked circles around her and made her so confused. She described having a ďtrauma bondĒ relationship with him. He would make her feel so miserable and she would have insecurity and anxiety asking herself what did she do. Then, when he would reach out to her, it was a euphoric high. However, eventually the highs became lower and lows became lower. She said she doesnít know how anyone could sustain that long term, itís so unhealthy. She was sad and crying at that point.

W said one thing that struck her that made her want to start distancing herself from OM3 was when I said that she didnít even give me a chance in one of our R talks. That she decided our MR was over without allowing me to be a better H. She claims divorced BFF helped her realize all of the good things I was doing. I asked if it would have helped her end it sooner if I had told her dad or sister about the Aís. She said probably not and likely would have held it against me.

On the night of OM3ís visit a week ago. I was paging through a few of my A books hoping to find some guidance on how to get the AP out of your life aside from a NC letter. W asked about one book and I gave it to her. She read through about half of it, but I donít think sheís picked it up in the past few days.

W has been very supportive around the house helping with the kids virtual classes, cleaning, laundry, pruning trees, cleaning up landscape beds, etc. We watch movies with the kids and ride bikes together like a family. Her and I have been watching a show every night after putting the kids to bed. She talked about bringing her TV over. She mentions different pieces of furniture or rugs that she wants to buy for our house. She packed up a bunch of food and more clothes from her place. Kids packed up more of their stuff because they donít want to keep it over there anymore, she said I guess thatís fine. She is still reluctant to move herself out completely. I donít push whatsoever, up to her on what and when she wants to move her things out. She certainly seems to be holding on to that place and isnít ready to exit completely.

She keeps talking about the MBR as mine and the Guest BR as hers. Itís frustrating, but I donít pressure her. I guess it will take time for her to feel comfortable with us living under the same roof again. She hasnít touched me and there is zero physical intimacy. Yesterday at lunch D5 said the following out of nowhere while W was sitting in the living room and clearly heard her: ďItís like things are back to normal dad, except you and mom arenít sleeping together.Ē I didnít know what to say and had no response. D5 is right, it kind of feels like weíre married again until itís time for bed. W is attentive and seems to care about my opinion and feelings on matters, but sheís still reserved and cautious. Maybe sheís scared and ashamed of having to disclose the WW and is satisfied with the status quo for now. Iím not sure how to restore intimacy if we havenít even discussed what happened, expressed recommitment, and agreed upon how things are going to be different.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/22/20 02:54 PM

C,

Ok. Iím confused. Have you talked about reconciliation or are you under the assumption you are? I thought she was just staying there because of COVID?
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/22/20 03:28 PM

LH19 is blunt but his comment rings true.
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/22/20 05:21 PM

Iím even more blunt.

She has had 3 separate affairs, pretty much blames them on you and she gets to slide right back in and on her terms.

Woah.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 04/22/20 08:31 PM

She is 2000 Light Years from Home...


You need to keep DB Curtis.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/07/20 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by LH19
Ok. Iím confused. Have you talked about reconciliation or are you under the assumption you are? I thought she was just staying there because of COVID?
If youíre confused, imagine how I feel. No talk about reconciliation, I may have made that assumption when she went NC with OM3. Over the past few weeks Iíve been monitoring her words and actions and have convinced myself this is not reconciliation, at least not what I think it should be. I donít know why she is staying here now, but she doesnít seem to have intentions of returning to her affair house. Itís confusing as all get out.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
LH19 is blunt but his comment rings true.

Originally Posted by Ginger1
Iím even more blunt.
She has had 3 separate affairs, pretty much blames them on you and she gets to slide right back in and on her terms.
Woah.
CW / Ginger, that about sums it up. Add to it that she wonít talk about her affairs, give a real apology, or show any affection towards me. Iím disappointed to be back in a different form of limbo, but not too down about it.

Originally Posted by neffer
She is 2000 Light Years from Home...
Nef, you got that right! Your posts really give me pause to think.

Today marks 18 months post BD. Still married, Wís back home. It [censored] being married to a roommate. She does random acts of kindness, she leaves her phone out in the open and is no longer glued to it like the past couple years. However, I donít feel she cares about my feelings. I donít feel loved, there is no affection.

We watch TV together after the kids go to bed. A couple weeks ago I tried to get closer to her while watching a show. I sat next to her and she became frigid. She got up and said she was going to bed. She said I have expectations of her to jump back together with us. She said she just came out of a traumatic relationship with someone, that sheís changed, and has boundaries now. She said sheís here and we watch shows together at night and thatís all she can give right now. She told me not to push. I calmly replied okay and let her go to bed without pressing the issue. That night I woke up in the early morning and saw things clearly. She has no desire for me. There is no attraction, she is light years from home.

There have been positive signs from my W. Last week she talked about something being at her house. Then she referred to it as ďI guess you would call it the rental now.Ē I asked ďHowís the rental going, making any money on it?Ē She laughed and said ďNot really.Ē W has been looking at several decorating ideas for our house. She showed me some pictures and I commented on a spiral staircase and said that could be in the next house as she always wanted an upstairs. She replied this is the last house (referring to our marital home), there wonít be another. W wants to start a tile project in an arched niche in the hallway. She showed me several design options and said we could make it a family project and work on it together with the kids. Finally, W has written several future projects on a whiteboard in the house that she is interested in.

Iíve noticed that she has a tendency to throw herself into many tasks simultaneously when she is trying to distract herself, probably from having to deal with her past proclivities and the current state of our MR. Perhaps she is mourning the breakup with OM3. She has reached 3 weeks NC with him. However, W is regularly and easily stressed, I try to relieve some of her burdens and show that she is loved.

Iím living in a weird reverse limbo. I got BD, she went IHS for 5 months, moved out for 12 months, reversed course, now back to IHS for 1 month. Does that mean in 4 more months we will be in reconciliation? Uggh!!

Personally Iím doing good and keeping my spirits high. Working out 5 times a week in my garage gym. Back to playing volleyball a couple times a week with a smaller quarantine group. Playing and riding bikes with the kids. Today I played my first round of golf since pre-BD (used to play at least once a month).

I bought W a nice set of earrings for Motherís Day and helped the kids make some gifts. No expectations that will change her feelings towards me. Weíll see how things develop over time as my birthday is coming up in a few weeks. It will be interesting to see if she makes it a priority.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/07/20 09:25 AM

C,

I can't believe I'm actually going to say this but as long as you don't fuch this up you may have a slight chance here. The problem of course is it should be the other way around and she should be doing the heavy lifting. If you can stay out of your own way and keep the focus on you this could possibly slowly turn around.

You should have had the attitude that she is here because of COVID and for the kids. Once quarantine is over she goes back to the rental. If she wants to work on the relationship great she does the heavy lifting. If not, that's ok too. Then you decide what you want to do moving forward.

That fact that you think she's going to jump back in like nothing happened is disturbing Curtis and shows you've done nothing to educate yourself about women, relationships and your own self worth. You can't buy her love and you should return those earrings immediately. This isn't a rom com Hollywood movie where you give her the earrings and she falls into your arms. These are the exact reasons why she's not attracted to you. People are not attracted to other people who jump through hoops for them. They ate attracted to people who are confident and command respect.

History shows you won't tame my advice but I keep hoping that at some point you might say, "maybe these db people know what they are talking about".

We are here for you.

Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/07/20 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Curtis
Iím disappointed to be back in a different form of limbo

I bet! Don't beat yourself up for doing this to yourself--learn from your mistake and grow. smile

Originally Posted by Curtis
Once quarantine is over she goes back to the rental. If she wants to work on the relationship great she does the heavy lifting. If not, that's ok too.

Being in this limbo is your choice. See how LH19's suggestion takes you out? Especially if you interpret "quarantine is over" as when businesses re-open in 1-2 months, not when COVID's gone forever.

Curtis, I hope LH19 made you reconsider that necklace. Don't be a doormat! Reclaim your respect and there's a chance attraction may follow.. instead of you being an ever-available safe spot between OM.
Posted By: Oceangl

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/07/20 06:45 PM

I'm with Sandi. These texts clearly are not for your well-being. They are manipulative and threatening. I would stay far away. There is really nothing they can tell you that you don't already know or want to know. I'm sorry she has brought you into such a mess. But she has clearly ticked off the wrong person.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/07/20 07:00 PM

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That night I woke up in the early morning and saw things clearly. She has no desire for me. There is no attraction, she is light years from home.

Good.

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Then she referred to it as ďI guess you would call it the rental now.Ē I asked ďHowís the rental going, making any money on it?

Good.

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She showed me some pictures and I commented on a spiral staircase and said that could be in the next house as she always wanted an upstairs.
I wouldn't discuss any plans for the future.

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Iíve noticed that she has a tendency to throw herself into many tasks simultaneously when she is trying to distract herself, probably from having to deal with her past proclivities and the current state of our MR.
Sounds like a GAL plan.

I like your GAL plan too, but I'd dump the earrings. Get her a card and have a nice day with the kids. You even said she isn't feeling attraction towards you right now, so don't go buying jewelry - it is desperation and women hate that.
Posted By: may22

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/07/20 09:56 PM

Hi Curtis,

I've been following your sitch for awhile now and see some parallels to my own, if you want to read through any of it (my H had a 2 year long-distance affair, I found out the full extent at the end of December, we had 6 weeks of limbo and discernment counseling, after which he ended his A. It's been almost three months now since he went NC with the AP, and I am slowly seeing loving/romantic behaviors start to surface again, though we haven't addressed the A since we went into quarantine.).

I have some advice for you take or leave that may be slightly different from what you're hearing from others. No disrespect, just sharing my take.

-- I think in your situation, the primary DB-ing rules are fundamental and still very, very important. Focus on yourself. Stop thinking about the future and what she may or may not do. Be present in the moment and drop all your expectations. I think you *think* you've dropped them, but they're still here.

-- Patience is so, so important. Cultivate it like crazy. She's not on the same timeline as you and you have to be OK with that.

-- You need to totally get, in the core of your being, that you have zero control over her. You control you. That is it. I still see you thinking she should be acting in a certain way and she isn't... let it go. Her behavior and thoughts are not within your control.

-- You have to be OK with the fact that she doesn't feel attracted to you right now. In all honesty, how could she? She's been involved in other Rs and is probably in some level of mourning, and she's only been 3 weeks NC with the last guy. And OMG that last situation was incredibly traumatic for everyone including those of us reading here. Imagine how she felt, not only getting herself in a situation like that but also potentially putting her children in danger. I would imagine it will take some time to work through that guilt and shame of that, plus loosening whatever infatuation she had with the OM, before her head clears and she can actually look at you as a potential romantic partner again.

Originally Posted by curtis7
Iím living in a weird reverse limbo. I got BD, she went IHS for 5 months, moved out for 12 months, reversed course, now back to IHS for 1 month. Does that mean in 4 more months we will be in reconciliation? Uggh!!

See how you still have expectations? And yes, it may take four more months. It may take a year. This isn't for the weak! (I have to remind myself of this all the time!)

Originally Posted by curtis7
Today marks 18 months post BD. Still married, Wís back home. It [censored] being married to a roommate. She does random acts of kindness, she leaves her phone out in the open and is no longer glued to it like the past couple years. However, I donít feel she cares about my feelings. I donít feel loved, there is no affection.

My suggestion here is to not worry about whether or not she cares about your feelings, whether or not you feel love or affection from her. She needs time and space to get to a place where she could rediscover those feelings... and pressure from you will not help that situation. Focus on loving yourself and your kids. Let go of any expectation that she should be showing you love and affection right now. Yes, it [censored]. But it is what it is.

Originally Posted by curtis7
We watch TV together after the kids go to bed. A couple weeks ago I tried to get closer to her while watching a show. I sat next to her and she became frigid. She got up and said she was going to bed. She said I have expectations of her to jump back together with us. She said she just came out of a traumatic relationship with someone, that sheís changed, and has boundaries now. She said sheís here and we watch shows together at night and thatís all she can give right now. She told me not to push. I calmly replied okay and let her go to bed without pressing the issue. That night I woke up in the early morning and saw things clearly. She has no desire for me. There is no attraction, she is light years from home.

I feel like your ego is a little hurt here. I would totally take what she is saying at face value and stop crying about it. If you can't handle the fact that she isn't cuddling with you on the couch yet, then you have more work to do.

My H has said almost the same things to me, word-for-word, about being present and that being all he could give. I had a hard time with that but eventually (with help from folks on the board) was able to let go and accept that it is what it is, he is where he is, things will get better between us, or they won't. And if they don't, then I can always choose to walk.

Believe me, I know this is really hard. If you read my thread I am having a hard time with it too. However, things ARE getting better, just very slowly.

Finally, I agree that jewelry feels like a romantic gift and that is pressure. Focus on meeting her where she is right now-- sounds like you're doing well in co-parenting. Have fun together with the kids, watch fun TV together, be friends. My DB coach told me a million times to focus on the friendship, that romance is like the fruit of the tree and you don't want to go for the fruit too soon. Water the roots and be patient. And... lose the expectations! I think that will help a lot.

One last thing... as time has gone on, I have been having a harder and harder time reconciling his A with the man I want to be married to and the man he's acting like today. I think I was so focused on saving the M for my kids' sake that I shoved all my feelings about the betrayal etc down deep, and they're starting to surface. I think it is normal but I would just caution that you might start to have similar feelings once she *does* start to show affection etc again.
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/08/20 07:39 AM

Curtis,

Well here we are! We've been here before. Don't you remember? Let me ask a question? Deep down, with all the advice we have given you. Do you really think diamond earrings is the right choice right now? The right decision for where you and your wife is at, at the moment. What type of pressure will you think that will apply on your wife and situation?

Now back down memory lane. Remember when we said you have a lot of expectations, over a year ago. Well it hasn't changed. You had expectations, because you were keeping her horse, you "Expected" her to feel a certain way. You had expectations with making reservations to go to Retrouvaille, and you had expectations when y'all went and remember her reactions, after we explain, it might be too much, then you said you thought some good came from the visit. Then, you had expectations with the assignments given from Retrouvaille. How were your expectations filled?

You haven't taken our advice on none of those situations, so far, and I don't expect Mother's day to be any different. You're going to give her the Earrings, because you are hoping and expecting a specific reaction.

You going to tell us. It's just a "Mother's day gift". Not that big of a deal. You have no expectations, if you give her that present, it's because she's the mother of your kids. But you know and we all know, that won't be the truth, because your "Actions" have proved otherwise.

So, I'm hoping, that come Monday, I read different from what, I'm expecting from Curtis. We will see.

Joejoe
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/08/20 04:38 PM

Curtis - think of it from a different perspective...Hers.

She's probably expecting you to get her a gift. And probably something nice.

Now the day comes and she gets her card from her kids but nothing from Curtis.

She'll be wondering why? Maybe she asks why?

You have a response:

"I didn't think it was appropriate given we aren't together but I helped the kids pick their gifts out...I'm glad you liked them".

Listen to JoeJoe...sometimes doing nothing speaks louder than doing something.
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/27/20 04:10 PM

Hi Curtis,

How's it going? Your WW had switched from visiting you for a year to see your horse, to staying with you temporarily after a harsh breakup with OM3 "for coronavirus". You were struggling to gain her respect instead of being a safe spot between OM. A lot can happen in three weeks! I hope you're doing well.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by may22

I've been following your sitch for awhile now and see some parallels to my own, if you want to read through any of it (my H had a 2 year long-distance affair, I found out the full extent at the end of December, we had 6 weeks of limbo and discernment counseling, after which he ended his A. It's been almost three months now since he went NC with the AP, and I am slowly seeing loving/romantic behaviors start to surface again, though we haven't addressed the A since we went into quarantine.).
May, excellent post. I read it several times and it really hit home and helped me. Iíve also read through your entire sitch and see several parallels. When I have more time I plan to post on your thread. Thank you.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by CWarrior
How's it going? A lot can happen in three weeks! I hope you're doing well.
Yes indeed. Sorry in advance for the long update, but yesterday was a whopper.

I did follow the advice and refrained from giving my W the earrings on Motherís Day. They were Topaz btw, not diamonds JoeJoe lol. Instead I gave her a card signed by myself and the kids, a bag of nice coffee, and made her breakfast. She seemed to enjoy the day.

W has spent the past couple weeks listening to her friendís relationship problems and giving advice. This is the GF whose H tragically died in a motorcycle accident last summer. The widowed GF has resumed a relationship with her AP that she was cheating on her now deceased H for a few years. Apparently, heís not living up to her expectations. My W feels itís her duty to be there as a good friend with texting and calls for hours daily. I do wish my W had GFís that werenít of the mindset that Aís are okay or divorced. She doesnít seem interested in cultivating friendships with women in strong marriages. Sheís got her two friends and sheís sticking with them.

W said her GF is being manipulated and controlled and she knows because OM3 did it to her. She said he always wanted her to be available for him at his mercy and that it was a massive time suck to text him throughout the day and night. W said she couldnít see it when she was in the relationship and no one could help her see it. She had to realize it on her own. I asked how she is doing with everything right now. She said sometimes sheís better and sometimes sheís not. I asked if she thinks she made the right decision to end it. She said sometimes she does and sometimes she doesnít. She said ďI donít feel that guilty, we were separated. I know you donít feel the same way about that.Ē I replied that I wish she knew how much hurt I felt from the A. She validated my feeling by saying if the roles were reversed and I was with someone, she could see how that could hurt. This talk was going nowhere, maybe this, maybe that, non-committal about anything. I took away what she wasnít saying and thatís that she wants to be with me.

My thoughts over the past few weeks were that this is not sustainable. There is no intimacy and only cordial interaction between the hours of 7am-11pm. I wondered what is the endgame here? Will my W ever open up to me and share her innermost feelings? If she does will it be smothered in lies and trickle truth? I feel that Iíve been patient and havenít pushed. If this is the status quo of our MR from here on out, then I need to be strong and express how this will not work for me. I need a true partner that values and appreciates me and cares about my needs. Iíve been giving her slack and the benefit of the doubt if she is going through affair withdrawal.

My birthday came and went. Much different than last year when W only sent me a happy birthday text at 3pm. This year she picked up dinner, cake, and a balloon and gave me a power tool as a gift. I expressed my gratitude and appreciation to her for making the day special. This past weekend I went away on golf trip for a few nights with some former co-workers. The day I left W said ďTo be blunt after not living together for a year, I think we could use a break from each other.Ē I replied ďYouíre probably right.Ē The golf trip was a fun escape. On Monday, we went to the store and W was talking about our neighbors. However, instead of saying ďBob and SueĒ, W said ďOM3 and SueĒ. I immediately called her out on saying his name. She said ďI did?Ē I replied yes and she apologized.

This week was back to normal work from home and sleep alone at night. Wís phone broke last weekend so she had to use D5ís play phone until a new one arrived. Yesterday, D5 asked me to install a new game and when I picked it up the phone log was open and I saw the call history. There were a handful of outgoing calls to OM3 over the weekend through yesterday...46 minutes, 8 minutes, 3 minutes, 2 hours 22 minutes, 48 minutes...the text history was erased as well...RELAPSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was flooded with the sinking feeling of being back living in an open MR. I canít go through that again. When W returned from her appointment I asked if she was back in contact with OM3. She replied ďWhat makes you think that?Ē I told her I see the calls on D5ís phone. She said he reached out to her 2 weeks after she went no contact wishing her a happy Motherís Day and she replied thanks. I asked why she didnít feel the need to tell me. W said I was being secretive about the golf trip and she thought I was going to meetup with another woman because I didnít tell her specifically where I was going or much of the details. The truth is the golf resort was in OM3ís city 2 hours away and I didnít want to give her any reminders of him if she was going through withdrawal. W said ďF it! If he doesnít care why should I?Ē This is why she claims she called him over the weekend to see how he was doing and has been texting him since. She said he wanted to know what happened and thatís why they talked for so long. I asked if she has seen him since going NC 6 weeks ago or is making plans to see him. She said no, but that he is probably under the impression that they will see each other again.

I told her if heís the one she wants then she should go be with him. I said Iíve tried everything I could but I needed her to meet me halfway. She said she doesnít know if she can feel emotions for me again. I said sheíll never know that while you stay in contact and he continues to be on your mind. Perfect example was Monday when she said his name in the car. W said the only reason sheís here is because of the virus, not because she wants to work on us. I replied I know, clearly you havenít chosen me. I told her I felt used. That I canít go back to this secret double life because it destroyed me. I told her she has no idea what itís like to be gaslighted. She asked how did I gaslight you. I gave her a few examples and she agreed. I told her it made me question my own sanity and I still do to this day because I donít know what is real and what was a lie. I just said I was hopeful when she ended it with him that she might actually be able to see me differently once her feelings for him fade.

I went outside to think how I could go through this again. All the pain came back and I felt sick to my stomach. I felt my blood pressure rise and my head was boiling. I thought to myself how could I be so stupid to believe she would stick to NC.

I made the kids dinner then W and I had a long relationship talk. W said she feels manipulated by everyone. That OM3 and I say the same things to her. That nobody wants her until she breaks up with them. W said that my golf trip was bad timing and had a few tears in her eyes. She said the only reason she reached back out to him was because she thought I was going to meet someone while I was away. W doesnít think we are repairable, thereís just too much and she has too many reservations about the past. She thinks once the kids are gone then weíll have nothing shared and will be miserable. I told her it sounds like she made her decision then. She said I donít know. I said I canít go back to you being with someone else while married to me, it literally destroys me on the inside and I will not tolerate it again. I told her you canít have it both ways.

I said this explains why you didnít get a restraining order on OM3. W said heís not dangerous and it was traumatizing because the kids were here when he came over that night. She said legal action can ruin someoneís life and that heís not a bad person. W said she doesnít think we can have anything more than a platonic business relationship. She said she thinks sheís not meant to be married and she should be single. (Heard all of this a year and half ago, same rhetoric). W said she doesnít think she can trust anyone and she canít even trust herself. She said she doesnít think she has ever been ďin loveĒ with anyone.

Nothing else substantial was said. We spent the rest of the night playing with our kitty and W seemed to realize she royally F upped. Now, where does that leave me. My W is clearly ambivalent. Iím thinking about moving forward with D if she refuses to stick to NC with OM3 immediately. If she canít commit to that, then she can go back to her house, have her single life, and never come back. Iím not playing the pick me game. Been there, done that. Iím tired of the disrespect.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:30 AM

C,

Get her out of the house now and file for divorce. I have never in five years saw a more irreversible situation.

Please save your children from this nonsense!

Iíll post more later.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:33 AM

Curtis,

I see zero benefit in writing a long post as you have shown time, time and time again that you wonít act on any advice you get here..

Everybody on this board saw this coming.. be it the vets or the newbies.. as you allowed her back with open arms, without her doing zero work on herself..

Cake eating galore... and you allowed it..

That equates to zero respect..

Kick her out today and give her a week to sort out the horse.. deja vu anybody?

But you wonít, and this circle will continue... no respect..

You have lost a year of your life chasing an empty pot of gold at the end of a rainbow... a whole year???

For what? To feel like you did 12 months ago..

Iíd start back on the basics, read cadets welcome thread and start again.. as you have read lots , learnt nothing. ( or at least ignored what you have learnt)..
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:38 AM

You need to tell her to get the F out.

Iím sorry. But she needs to get out. Stat
Posted By: scout12

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:43 AM

You keep posting ďif she doesnít do XYZ, Iím done for real this time, I mean it!Ē But you never follow through.

You had that talk and then spent the night playing with your cat together? What the heck...
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 11:59 AM

You allow everything that is happening to you. You have no respect for yourself, why should she have respect for you?

She doesnít feel bad about what she did. She feels bad she got caught.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 12:31 PM

curtis, WOW. FIrst of all, your W is still, in her mind, clearly involved in the A, even if only on an EA level at the moment. She is still wayward. She is still wanting her cake and eat it too.

While it still would have been better to stick to no R talks, I do think that in certain circumstances that you have to have an R talk. I am well documented here as being a confronter. If I see something that resembles my W going astray again, I confront it head on. Make her make a clear choice right there an then. There is no more wishy-washiness from me, I am no longer suffering from any level of NGS.

Here is the problem, you've put down a line in the sand. You've told her in no uncertain terms that you will NOT tolerate her being married to you and seeing someone else. Now you have to stick to it. I'll get to my advice for next steps in a minute.

You are right, it isn't fair for you to live in limbo forever. Another thing I am a big proponent of is setting a date for when I expect her to be all in and all out. The date is for you, not her. You do not give her the date. You remain vague. "I will not tolerate living like this forever." "I am close to the end of my tolerance for our current situation." Things like that. Letting her know that limbo is not a permanent state.

As far as the "I contacted him because I thought you were meeting up with another woman", that is GARBAGE. HOT GARBAGE ON A STICK. This is more gaslighting and more excuses. With your current living situation you do not owe her the details she thinks she deserves. And even if you had given her a details itinerary of your trip, she still would have used it as her excuse. "You were gone having fun, I was lonely." Etc. It is all a lie. She is not over her addiction. She is trying to convince you she is NC so she can cake eat. This is why I am all for calling her out on it.

So as far as next steps, this is what I suggest:

1) Stick to your promise of not tolerating her seeing anyone else. If there is any further break of NC with OM3, you go file for D. Period, end of story. No need to ask her to move out, just have her served and be ready to move on.

2) Set a date, that even if she lives up to NC with OM3, that you will go file for D unless she is 100% committed back to the marriage. I cannot tell you how freeing it was for me to be DBing with an end goal in mind. Either my W came around by the date I chose, or I was going to go file for D myself. (For me it was one year after BD, but since BD was 12/23, I set my date for the first business day following the holidays.) Pick a date that works for you. "I can do this for 3 more months, 6 more months....etc".

curtis hang in there man, remember, Nice Guy Syndrome says to hang in there for your kids. Fear says hang in there for as long as it takes her. Sorry, but you are up to OM3, with a W that is clearly still wayward. It is time to start deciding what is best for CURTIS, not everyone else around him.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 01:31 PM

Hey Curtis,

I feel bad for you. I've been there and done that. It is painful. But it probably is not as painful as it was a year ago, right? Do you think you are getting stronger and smarter?

Originally Posted by curtis
W said her GF is being manipulated and controlled and she knows because OM3 did it to her. She said he always wanted her to be available for him at his mercy and that it was a massive time suck to text him throughout the day and night.

You sat there and listened to all of that?

Originally Posted by curtis
W said she couldnít see it when she was in the relationship and no one could help her see it.

Lol, relationship? You validated this lie and made her life easier by allowing her to avoid the truth of her actions: she was a married woman involved with other men.

Originally Posted by curits
Will my W ever open up to me and share her innermost feelings?
Who gives a rat's behind? Every time you talk to a woman in a romantic situation (and vice versa for our ladies), you should be deciding if she is worthy or not. Not everyone passes the test.

Originally Posted by curtis
The day I left W said ďTo be blunt after not living together for a year, I think we could use a break from each other.Ē I replied ďYouíre probably right.Ē
The appropriate response would have been to show her the door and say "bye Felicia".

Quote
I asked if she was back in contact with OM3
Goddang dude. Again? Just tell her you know, or better yet take action and throw her out. She was evasive again? Not shocking. There are going to be a million things that remind you of OM regardless of whether or not you are with your W. Detach!

I'll say this Curtis, you've never really gone NC with her and moved on. I would do this immediately. As a person who clung hard for a long time, I feel your pain.

Your W said that you only wanted her when you couldn't have her, is that true? I'm genuinely curious.

But guess what, your W is the same way. You want her back? Let her go. Really, do it. Go NC, boot her out. You may get full custody given all the crazy [censored] and AP's she's had at the house. The stats show who is most at risk for this so let your W go live on her own.

When I got here I had the belief that you hang on to your marriage no matter what. You said for better or for worse and your word is your bond. But I have really softened on that position in the last 2 years.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
The widowed GF has resumed a relationship with her AP that she was cheating on her now deceased H for a few years. Apparently, he’s not living up to her expectations.

Very predictable
Originally Posted by curtis7
I do wish my W had GF’s that weren’t of the mindset that A’s are okay or divorced.

When you ignore reality you suffer
Originally Posted by curtis7
She doesn’t seem interested in cultivating friendships with women in strong marriages. She’s got her two friends and she’s sticking with them.

Very predictable
Originally Posted by curtis7
W said her GF is being manipulated and controlled and she knows because OM3 did it to her.

She loves talking to you about OM. Interesting that you are ok with it.
Originally Posted by curtis7
She said he always wanted her to be available for him at his mercy and that it was a massive time suck to text him throughout the day and night.

OMs are usually needy. They can't get single available women.
Originally Posted by curtis7
She said “I don’t feel that guilty, we were separated.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you
Originally Posted by curtis7
I replied that I wish she knew how much hurt I felt from the A.

She knows she just doesn't care
Originally Posted by curtis7
This talk was going nowhere, maybe this, maybe that, non-committal about anything. I took away what she wasn’t saying and that’s that she wants to be with me.

That's definitely what she is saying.
Originally Posted by curtis7
My thoughts over the past few weeks were that this is not sustainable. There is no intimacy and only cordial interaction between the hours of 7am-11pm. I wondered what is the endgame here?

Most likely her filing for divorce.
Originally Posted by curtis7
Will my W ever open up to me and share her innermost feelings?

Probably not
Originally Posted by curtis7
If she does will it be smothered in lies and trickle truth?

YES!!!!
Originally Posted by curtis7
I feel that I’ve been patient and haven’t pushed.

Patient yes but you definitely pushed.
Originally Posted by curtis7
If this is the status quo of our MR from here on out, then I need to be strong and express how this will not work for me.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by curtis7
I need a true partner that values and appreciates me and cares about my needs.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by curtis7
I’ve been giving her slack and the benefit of the doubt if she is going through affair withdrawal.
Shame on you
[quote=curtis7] My birthday came and went. Much different than last year when W only sent me a happy birthday text at 3pm. This year she picked up dinner, cake, and a balloon and gave me a power tool as a gift. I expressed my gratitude and appreciation to her for making the day special.

This only happened because she is living with you now.
Originally Posted by curtis7
The day I left W said “To be blunt after not living together for a year, I think we could use a break from each other.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you.
Originally Posted by curtis7
The golf trip was a fun escape.

Good!
Originally Posted by curtis7
On Monday, we went to the store and W was talking about our neighbors. However, instead of saying “Bob and Sue”, W said “OM3 and Sue”. I immediately called her out on saying his name. She said “I did?” I replied yes and she apologized.

So annoying
Originally Posted by curtis7
This week was back to normal work from home and sleep alone at night. W’s phone broke last weekend so she had to use D5’s play phone until a new one arrived. Yesterday, D5 asked me to install a new game and when I picked it up the phone log was open and I saw the call history. There were a handful of outgoing calls to OM3 over the weekend through yesterday...46 minutes, 8 minutes, 3 minutes, 2 hours 22 minutes, 48 minutes...the text history was erased as well...RELAPSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm shocked???????????????????????????????????????????????????
Originally Posted by curtis7
I was flooded with the sinking feeling of being back living in an open MR.

I'm sorry C but you never left it.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I can’t go through that again.

And you shouldn't!
Originally Posted by curtis7
When W returned from her appointment I asked if she was back in contact with OM3. She replied “What makes you think that?” I told her I see the calls on D5’s phone. She said he reached out to her 2 weeks after she went no contact wishing her a happy Mother’s Day and she replied thanks. I asked why she didn’t feel the need to tell me. W said I was being secretive about the golf trip and she thought I was going to meetup with another woman because I didn’t tell her specifically where I was going or much of the details. The truth is the golf resort was in OM3’s city 2 hours away and I didn’t want to give her any reminders of him if she was going through withdrawal. W said “F it! If he doesn’t care why should I?” This is why she claims she called him over the weekend to see how he was doing and has been texting him since. She said he wanted to know what happened and that’s why they talked for so long. I asked if she has seen him since going NC 6 weeks ago or is making plans to see him. She said no, but that he is probably under the impression that they will see each other again.

I hear the peanuts teacher on Charlie Brown when I read this BS.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I told her if he’s the one she wants then she should go be with him.

Good!
Originally Posted by curtis7
I said I’ve tried everything I could but I needed her to meet me halfway.

Everything but DBing
Originally Posted by curtis7
She said she doesn’t know if she can feel emotions for me again.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I said she’ll never know that while you stay in contact and he continues to be on your mind.

Doesn't sound like validation to me
Originally Posted by curtis7
W said the only reason she’s here is because of the virus, not because she wants to work on us.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I replied I know, clearly you haven’t chosen me.

Oh. So I guess it's a competition? WTF???????
Originally Posted by curtis7
That I can’t go back to this secret double life because it destroyed me.

I'm sorry C but you never left it.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I told her she has no idea what it’s like to be gaslighted. She asked how did I gaslight you. I gave her a few examples and she agreed. I told her it made me question my own sanity and I still do to this day because I don’t know what is real and what was a lie.

Trying to use logic and reason with an emotional human being
Originally Posted by curtis7
I just said I was hopeful when she ended it with him that she might actually be able to see me differently once her feelings for him fade.

Doubt it. You're still a control freak.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I thought to myself how could I be so stupid to believe she would stick to NC.

Very valid question
Originally Posted by curtis7
I made the kids dinner then W and I had a long relationship talk.

DB encourages relationship talks. Especially long ones. (LH smacks his head)
Originally Posted by curtis7
W said she feels manipulated by everyone. That OM3 and I say the same things to her. That nobody wants her until she breaks up with them. W said that my golf trip was bad timing and had a few tears in her eyes. She said the only reason she reached back out to him was because she thought I was going to meet someone while I was away.

WW BS
Originally Posted by curtis7
W doesn’t think we are repairable, there’s just too much and she has too many reservations about the past.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you.
Originally Posted by curtis7
She thinks once the kids are gone then we’ll have nothing shared and will be miserable.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I told her you can’t have it both ways.

Why? She has for a year and a half.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I said this explains why you didn’t get a restraining order on OM3. W said he’s not dangerous and it was traumatizing because the kids were here when he came over that night. She said legal action can ruin someone’s life and that he’s not a bad person.

Unfortunately she cares more about him than you. I'm sorry.
Originally Posted by curtis7
W said she doesn’t think we can have anything more than a platonic business relationship. She said she thinks she’s not meant to be married and she should be single. (Heard all of this a year and half ago, same rhetoric).

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you.
Originally Posted by curtis7
W said she doesn’t think she can trust anyone and she can’t even trust herself. She said she doesn’t think she has ever been “in love” with anyone.

In a rare occasion she's being honest with you. She doesn't love herself so she can't love anyone else.
Originally Posted by curtis7
Nothing else substantial was said. We spent the rest of the night playing with our kitty and W seemed to realize she royally F upped.

Your BSing yourself Curtis.
Originally Posted by curtis7
Now, where does that leave me. My W is clearly ambivalent.

Actually she has told you where she's at but you don't listen to her.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I’m thinking about moving forward with D if she refuses to stick to NC with OM3 immediately. If she can’t commit to that, then she can go back to her house, have her single life, and never come back. I’m not playing the pick me game. Been there, done that. I’m tired of the disrespect.

I'm a literally just shaking my head.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 03:16 PM

Thanks LH, Ginger, Ovr, MrBrside, Scout, and Steve. I hear a resounding kick her to the curb.

LH et al, the 2x4ís are deserved. I let her slide back into the house without working on herself. She does care about OM3 more than me, thatís been the case for over a year. She wants him, but she wants what we have. That is not a MR. She can justify what she has with him all she wants; however, itís an affair any way you slice it and sheís still addicted. The ďrock bottomĒ of seeing him traumatize our kids was short lived once she became lonely and he started sweet talking her again letting her know how he would do anything for her.

Ovr, itís nowhere near as bad as a year ago. She has lost so much of my love and respect that her words and actions donít hurt me the way they did back then. I am much stronger and smarter and am not letting this slide. You asked if it was true about my W saying that I only wanted her when I couldn't have her. We had a good MR, I always wanted and have been attracted to her. There were behaviors that I did which made her feel disrespected and unheard. She didnít feel we were equal partners. I 180íd those after BD. I couldnít hear or see them before and had no idea how much disdain it created for her towards me.

Steve, I like your suggestion. I need to confront and follow up with filing if she doesnít commit to 100% NC with OM. I can tolerate her not committing to me for a time, but I will no longer tolerate her remaining in contact with OM while living with me.
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 03:23 PM

What was your boundary the last time she commutes to NC? She crossed it. You are tolerating it. Why would she believe the next time she gets caught you are going to enforce a boundary.?

Are you just going to give her a do over again?
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 03:32 PM

Hi Curtis,

Originally Posted by Curtis
I am much stronger and smarter and am not letting this slide.

I hope this is your "rock bottom"--and you'll finally act on kicking her out and dealing with that horse.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7


Steve, I like your suggestion. I need to confront and follow up with filing if she doesnít commit to 100% NC with OM. I can tolerate her not committing to me for a time, but I will no longer tolerate her remaining in contact with OM while living with me.


You are still trying to control her..

Giving her an ultimatum about no contact.. WTF... wasnít this like one of 20 things you tried 12 months ago..

You donít grasp the fact that she has no respect for you and your ultimatums donít worry her..Look at your track record..

She will either just get smarter at hiding it, or just not care anyway.. in her eyes there is zero consequences to her actions because you talk the talk, but never follow through..and thatís irrelevant anyway because you are still overlooking the fact that the affair is like an addiction.. she is addicted to him..this guy turns up at your property and scares your children, yet she is still choosing him.. so in the grand sceme of things do you really believe if that didnít scare her off him, an ultimatum from you will do the trick..? Really???

Itís sad to be typing this. My phone memories popped up this morning and showed pictures of our holiday ďon this dayĒ 12 months ago, and I remember replying a lot to your posts in the evening in the holiday cottage..itís very sad that 12 months later you havenít worked on your self enough or found peace - as you just canít let go of what you once had or just enjoy life.



Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
.

Steve, I like your suggestion. I need to confront and follow up with filing if she doesnít commit to 100% NC with OM. I can tolerate her not committing to me for a time, but I will no longer tolerate her remaining in contact with OM while living with me.


That was not my suggestion. You already confronted. My suggestion was to move forward with filing. No more talking. The time for talk is over. You are like the parent that keeps telling their child "one more chance to obey", but never doles out the punishment. Your threats, boundaries, and ultimatums are toothless. You keep restating them hoping she'll pick you. You are like Donkey in Shrek, constantly jumping up and down in front of her saying "Pick me! Pick me!"

So either go file now. Silently give her one more chance. But certainly put that time-limit in place (AGAIN SILENTLY) that unless she is fully committed back by X date, you will go file.

curtis, the disrespect has continued to pile up. You can continue to be her doormat, or you can choose to take your situation under control and DO!

DO NOT SAY.
ACTION NOT WORDS.
ACTIVITY NOT CONVERSATION.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/29/20 05:55 PM

Curtis, remember: PROTECT YOUR KIDS


((((((((C))))))))
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 05/30/20 06:02 AM

Curtis,

To be honest, I wasn't surprised at all. I said all this would happen. And guess what you knew it would happen too. But the difference between you and I, was you was hoping it didn't happen. Stop hoping and start doing. You are on a hamster wheel brotha. Only you can hop off.

We know, you going to give her this one last option. And if she don't take the option that you want her to take ( which for over a year now we have said stop those controlling habits you have) then you're done. Then she don't take it, and you are going to state another option.

Listen, you going to have to deal with it. Your WW is gone, mentally and emotionally she's not with or for you. That's the reality. You can't talk your way into her heart, you can't, you just can't. She's doesn't respect you, PERIOD! If she did, she wouldn't be so freely openly ready to discuss and explain how much of a good man the OM is that scared the hell out of your kids.

And to be honest, we are on a hamster wheel with you, because we keep typing to see things to you.

You WW don't deserve YOU, stop acting like she's the catch. Her friend is already complaining about her OM. Your WW came running back to you during a Pandemic, that's says enough about the OM. Stop getting in her way.

LET GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Joejoe
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 04:19 AM

Two weeks ago I changed the screen on Wís old phone that was recently replaced as we were going to give it to D5 as a toy. I powered it on to test and discovered that my WW had resumed her PA with OM3. I learned that the phone conversations with him over Memorial Day weekend werenít a relapse but part of a total collapse.

Here is the backstory, W went NC on April 13. Her AP sent her a text May 10 on Motherís Day wishing her a good day. WW had one of her BFFís check her blocked messages a few days later and she told her there was one. WW chose to re-engage and responded Thanks. A couple days later on May 14, WW started the barrage of hundreds of texts and calls with OM3. This explained a lot as she stopped watching shows in the evening with me around that time and now I understand it was because she was communicating with him incessantly while lying in the guest bed at night. She made it about 5 weeks NC before giving in to the temptation again. Some of the messages said ďthis was calculatedĒ referring to her staying here for the virus and backing away from him so that I would calm down after OM3 came to our house. She also told him she cringes at the thought of touching me as he always seemed concerned that her and I were having a physical relationship during their A. I donít know if these were things she said to him for appeasement or if she really meant it. ILUs, sexting, and future plans were exchanged daily. She left the kids at our house one of the nights I was on the golf trip Memorial Day weekend to have sex with him at her affair house. A few days later she had him sleep over there one night, then met him for sex in the morning after telling me she had to go into work that day.

So, on that day when the wool was removed from my eyes, WW was working on a project at her affair house. I was livid, thought about it for a few hours and decided I wanted to move forward with D. I sent the following texts:
H: ďDon't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover.Ē
WW: ďHuh?Ē
H: ďI am done being disrespected. Stay out of my life until you can break free of your addiction.Ē
H: ďI will not live another day in an open marriage. We can proceed with the settlement. You can tell the kids tonight that you are having an affair.Ē
WW: ďMay I ask where the hell this came from?Ē
I did not respond. Instead I gathered her clothes, toiletries, and a few of her other belongings and set them outside the garage. An hour later she texts:
WW: ďI need to feed horses and get my stuff.Ē
I did not respond.

WW came over and fed the horses. She loaded her $hit in the trunk as I brought a bag of her shoes outside to set on the driveway. She asked where all of this came from all of sudden. I told her it doesnít matter and Iím done with all the lies. She continued to press and asked who told you something. I replied I know youíre screwing him again. I repeated Iím done. I said ďYou have to decide right now in this moment, him or me. You will not get another chance. This is the biggest decision of your life.Ē WW went to her car like she was going to leave. She got back out then held out her phone and said ďHere.Ē I looked at it and said ďWhat?Ē wondering if she wanted me to check the message history that was likely erased. She said ďTake it, I wonít do it again.Ē She was offering transparency and to go no contact. She said she would stop forever with tears in her eyes. She had the look of fear, someone crying out for help but to weak to give up her addiction. I couldnít believe it, did she mean it this time or is this her reaction to fear of being kicked to the curb for good. I told her actions are all that matter now. Her words donít mean much to me and that I donít trust her. Actions talk now. She said something along the lines of donít make me regret this and if I donít treat her right and regrets her decision, then she will leave.

We talked for a few hours in the garage. WW started justifying her A again in that we were separated and she waited until she moved out. I asked what about since youíve been back and leading me to believe you were NC with him. Then I asked about OM1 (co-worker). It may not have been physical but you started an emotional affair with him before you gave me the letter (referring to BD on 11/6/2018). I gave her my definition of cheating and thatís anything you share with someone that you wouldnít want your spouse to see or hear. She said the affair started with OM1 the day after our anniversary in 2018. Completely new information to me, turns out this was a PA over 2 months prior to BD!

She said she didnít feel appreciated because we only said happy anniversary to each other during the day, then I went to play basketball at night. I told her affairs during separation meant cheating to me, it may not have to her, but it meant that to me. We continued to voice our needs to each other. I told her no contact whatsoever could ever happen again and she needs to develop a plan for how our marriage will be better. She didnít know where to start, she was at a loss. I told her a NC letter approved by me and sent to him laying out that it was over forever in no uncertain terms is the first step. She agreed to it.

WW said OM3ís a victim, that Iím a victim, and she caused it all. WW was feeling sorry for herself. She said he is a narcissist. I agreed he is and he needs to get his fix from her as his supply. I said he sucked you right back in, itís called hoovering and she said I know. I said he canít get a single available woman so he preys on vulnerable married women like you. I said you jumped right back in with the constant texting and calls, you told me how much of a time suck that was and I asked if that was something she needs. She said no, it is draining and she was going to ask him to scale back on it and all the sexual talk. Then she said maybe sheís the narcissist. I said thatís something youíre going to have to work through yourself, either way itís not your job to save him. Sheís said heís not a bad person or some monster that I want to make him out to be. I replied itís probably easier for me to think of him that way to take some of the blame away from you. She said that he and others have said the same thing about me and that is when I get what I want and that is total control of her, that I will change back and treat her poorly. I told her I intend to keep the changes sheís seen in me for the rest of my life, whether Iím with her or not. I said I realized how destructive they were to us and me as a person and Iím not going back to that. That seemed to reassure her because her friends obviously told her otherwise.

I asked why she was willing to give everything up for a 2% chance of that relationship working out, if she saw a future. She replied she sees no future for her, itís a complete void. The woman is completely lost in the fog. I told her Iíd prefer not to talk about OM3 again beyond whatís needed for the NC letter.

W said she enjoys when we do things as a family like when we go for rides together. One thing she needs is that I never use the kids as pawns to manipulate our relationship. She said she will leave if I do that. She asked me to look her in the eye when I responded to that. She sat there with a blank look on her face saying she doesnít know what to do. If sheís supposed to stay or go. I asked what she was committing to, NC or working on us? I explained when she came back in April that I was hopeful that she was NC with him and might give us a chance. Then, she made it clear that there was no us, so I backed off as I felt she needed time to go through withdrawal from her affair. So, I accepted that and could live with only a commitment to NC for now and not a commitment to us at that time. So, I asked again what is it this time? She said she wouldnít do one without the other, meaning commitment to NC and working on us. I said in that case, I would prefer you to stay, but you are free to stay over there if you would like, it would not upset me. She decided to stay.

A few days after the ultimatum I asked when she was planning to send the NC letter. She said she already did the following day via email, then deleted the account (her secret online dating email address). She doesnít know if he got it and hasnít checked google voice where she would text him. I was displeased and reminded her I wanted to see the letter before she sent it. She said she didnít remember that from our talk. I asked what did it say. She said it was 3 sentences. It said something like ďI have decided to end this relationship for my family. We can have no further contact. I am sorry.Ē

I asked if she meant what she said about me that I make her cringe. She said there are a lot of past hurts that she hasnít gotten past with me. She didnít have those with the OM so she felt a lot of love towards them. I tried to reassure that it gets easier a month, 6 months, 1-2 years later. I asked for a plan for us and said that the first step was no contact so I appreciated she did that. I asked what she meant by telling him coming back was all calculated. I feared she was only here because of what happened on April 13th when OM3 came to our house and I read what she wrote that I was going to use it against her to try and take the kids. She said sometimes it was easier to just say what OM3 wanted to hear then to get in an argument. She said it was draining to text or have calls with him to discuss certain things. I asked if she liked all the constant contact and sexual talk. She said it was getting a little old always circling back to sex. She said she is much better able to verbalize now sexually, she didnít know she had that in her before. She said she likes that occasionally to keep things interesting.

3 days ago I decided to look at her phone as she leaves it out now, not hiding it anymore. She has stuck to NC. However, there was a text to divorced BFF about OM3. W told her she was frustrated and crying the night before, then texted she missed him so damn much, wants to email him but doesnít know what to say. Divorced BFF merely replied Iím sorry youíre sad. Iíve decided that Iím at a point in this sitch that if I see something that crosses my boundary, then Iím going to say something or act. No longer will I let it slide. Iím not going back to a life of living in an open marriage, never again.

I confronted W about it. I told her if sheís going through anything thatís difficult that I would like her to come to me. She said thereís nothing, that she hasnít talked to BFFs about anything. I told her Iím sure itís tough going through this and you havenít been yourself lately. She said Iím fine in a very defensive tone. I told her I read that sheís sad and wanted to email him. She said youíre reading my $hit in a pissed off voice. She said thatís the first time she brought him up in a long time. I said you gave me your phone, I thought you were offering transparency. She said this is not the time, that I always come to her at the worst times, in the morning, at night, when she has to work. I asked when is a good time. She said she doesnít know and left for an appointment. She was annoyed again that I looked through her phone. I guess transparency only matters when Iím ready to end things. I sent her the following texts ďThis $hitís hard. I get it. Really hard to give something up that you were in love with. It will fade. Please come to me when you're struggling. We can do this together.Ē And ďHonesty, transparency, and accountability are the building blocks. When you share with me how you're doing, it makes me feel more connected and it helps rebuild trust. I know you're trying your best. I hope you will feel more comfortable coming to me. If there's something I can do differently to help, please let me know.Ē She made no mention of this the rest of the day.

I will say she has been on her best behavior since. I think she needs to be reminded what sheís committed to and may not have the will power to do it on her own. This reminds me of when I met her and she was a smoker. I hated the smell and taste. She knew it was bad for her and I urged her to quit. She had several relapses and over the course of about 6 months was finally able to stop for good. I had to check in with her regularly to make sure she was sticking to quitting. Over coming her AP addiction is akin to this smoking analogy except several lives are impacted severely by her choices and I donít know if she is strong enough for NC on her own.

My Wís affair fog clock was reset to zero. Now weíre 2 weeks into this latest stint of NC. Rather than sleep in the guest bedroom, W sleeps in D5ís room every night. She has about 5 sets of clothes here. The fish and all of her other clothes and belongings remain at the other house. There has been no marriage plan from her, nary a word about it. W does talk about some future plans and redecorating the house occasionally. W is also starting to distance herself from one of her two BFFs that was not a friend of our MR in my opinion. I was reading up on affair fog on another site and the author, a former WW, described how she tried to break it off with her AP over a dozen times! I think Iím up to her third attempt since sheís been living back in our house.

I realize that my W has been in love with at least 3 OM since the last time she loved me. I try to remind myself that it will take time for her to unwind these feelings through the withdrawal process. She must be asking herself what that meant to her and what does that mean for me and our MR if she allowed herself to choose them for so long. My WW really went off the deep end last summer. It was probably the first of her multiple rock bottoms. For those that remember, I took my kids for a 2 week vacation to California and when I returned, W wanted me to keep the kids every night for a few weeks. There are some things I read on her phone from that time period that confirm she was in a very dark place. She was coming to grips with the enormity of her choices and how toxic she was. Iím not going into more detail about that as she seems to have recovered from that low point.

My sitch continues. Per Steve85ís recommendation, I have a date set for myself where I need to see movement in the commitment to me and working on the MR. W is most definitely not on the same timeline as me, weíll see if she gets there. On a positive note, I see the stability that has returned to my kidís lives. They were so confused going back and forth between houses. The kids were my greatest motivation to stand for my MR during the worst of times. Iím grateful that Iíve reached this point where R could be a possibility.

Another super lengthy update...itís kind of my trademark. Thank you all for the support!
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 04:36 AM

Hi Curtis,

Originally Posted by Curtis
WW came over and fed the horses.
...
She said thereís nothing, that she hasnít talked to BFFs about anything.

I see. So, as of 3 days ago, she's still lying to you.

If she cheats again, what will you do with her horse, so you can truly feel the sanity of No Contact?

Originally Posted by Curtis
She said she doesnít know and left for an appointment.

How do you know where she went?
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 07:08 AM

Curtis,

You must have a love of this roller coaster - as it goes round and round and you never seem to want to get off.

Originally Posted by curtis7
I powered it on to test and discovered that my WW had resumed her PA with OM3. I learned that the phone conversations with him over Memorial Day weekend werenít a relapse but part of a total collapse.


She never ever stopped being wayward - ever !. You just try and convince yourself otherwise.


Originally Posted by curtis7

So, on that day when the wool was removed from my eyes,


Highly unlikely - I'm just waiting for the predictable ultamatum you will throw her way, thinging it will woo here back

Originally Posted by curtis7

H: ďDon't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover.Ē
[/quoye]

hmm - i hadn't even scroll down that far to read this bit - your are so predictable. To us and to your wife


[quote=curtis7]I said ďYou have to decide right now in this moment, him or me. You will not get another chance. This is the biggest decision of your life.

CONTROL and PRESURE - You have learmt nothing in over 12 months here.. NOTHING - You bully your way to get the outcome you desire - But never get the outcome. Your WW can see how predictable you are ( and desperate to reconcile ) so will just tell you what you want to hear.


Originally Posted by curtis7
She had the look of fear, someone crying out for help but to weak to give up her addiction. I couldnít believe it, did she mean it this time or is this her reaction to fear of being kicked to the curb for good. I told her actions are all that matter now. Her words donít mean much to me and that I donít trust her. Actions talk now. She said something along the lines of donít make me regret this and if I donít treat her right and regrets her decision, then she will leave.


LOL.. really.... ( bangs head against a brick wall ) - and time for another lap or two on the rollercoast - and more time where you could have been working on you, goes out the window.


Originally Posted by curtis7
WW started justifying her A again in that we were separated and she waited until she moved out.


Again, read whats Sandi writes about genuine remorse and being humble.. This IS NOT remorse - Hence still wayward - arghh

I asked what about since youíve been back and leading me to believe you were NC with him. Then I asked about OM1 (co-worker). It may not have been physical but you started an emotional affair with him before you gave me the letter (referring to BD on 11/6/2018). I gave her my definition of cheating and thatís anything you share with someone that you wouldnít want your spouse to see or hear. She said the affair started with OM1 the day after our anniversary in 2018. Completely new information to me, turns out this was a PA over 2 months prior to BD!


Originally Posted by curtis7
I told her a NC letter approved by me and sent to him laying out that it was over forever in no uncertain terms is the first step. She agreed to it.


CONTROL - DICTATING - UNTIMATUMS

This is you through and through - We see this - she knows this .. Hence we all know that she will ignore you.


Originally Posted by curtis7

I asked why she was willing to give everything up for a 2% chance of that relationship working out, if she saw a future. She replied she sees no future for her, itís a complete void. The woman is completely lost in the fog. I told her Iíd prefer not to talk about OM3 again beyond whatís needed for the NC letter.


CONTROL - DESPERATION = NO RESPECT.. I cringe when i see this. The woman is lost in a fog - BUT SO ARE YOU... La la land - 12 months later.. and even then you want her to write a letter - 2% chance ??? 0.00000000002 % curtis as you don't change/


Originally Posted by curtis7
She decided to stay.


As it suits her - not for you

A few days after the ultimatum I asked when she was planning to send the NC letter. She said she already did the following day via email, then deleted the account (her secret online dating email address). She doesnít know if he got it and hasnít checked google voice where she would text him. I was displeased and reminded her I wanted to see the letter before she sent it. She said she didnít remember that from our talk. I asked what did it say. She said it was 3 sentences. It said something like ďI have decided to end this relationship for my family. We can have no further contact. I am sorry.Ē


Originally Posted by curtis7
I asked if she meant what she said about me that I make her cringe. She said there are a lot of past hurts that she hasnít gotten past with me. She didnít have those with the OM so she felt a lot of love towards them. I tried to reassure that it gets easier a month, 6 months, 1-2 years later. I asked for a plan for us and said that the first step was no contact so I appreciated she did that.


Still telling her ! You really do come across a controlling.

Originally Posted by curtis7
Iíve decided that Iím at a point in this sitch that if I see something that crosses my boundary, then Iím going to say something or act. No longer will I let it slide. Iím not going back to a life of living in an open marriage, never again.


Doubt this - you don't listen and i very much doubt you can drop the rope.

Originally Posted by curtis7
My Wís affair fog clock was reset to zero.


classic - i'm sure we have read something along these lines before lol.. Honestly ? Seriously ? lol


Originally Posted by curtis7
It was probably the first of her multiple rock bottoms. For those that remember, I took my kids for a 2 week vacation to California and when I returned, W wanted me to keep the kids every night for a few weeks. There are some things I read on her phone from that time period that confirm she was in a very dark place. She was coming to grips with the enormity of her choices and how toxic she was. Iím not going into more detail about that as she seems to have recovered from that low point.


Well she remained wayward for another 12 months - hardly rock bottom -!


Originally Posted by curtis7
My sitch continues.


And always will - because you just do as you see fit.

Originally Posted by curtis7
Iím grateful that Iíve reached this point where R could be a possibility.


You really are intent on pain or are in la la land - like really - this is where you now stop posting for 4 weeks knowing the 2x4 will be coming your way - to then post again in July, posting a similar story again - and the horse will still be there as a lure to keep the WW around- God bless the horse..
Posted By: CWarrior

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Still telling her ! You really do come across a controlling.

Curtis, I felt that "controlling" vibe all throughout your post, too.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
She said that he and others have said the same thing about me and that is when I get what I want and that is total control of her, that I will change back and treat her poorly.

Imagine if you 180'd that controlling behavior, how obvious the change would be! I so, so want to see you succeed. It may require you to hit rock bottom and make big changes but it's possible.
Posted By: scout12

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 09:57 AM

Quote
H: ďDon't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover


Thatís all you needed to say.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
Two weeks ago I changed the screen on Wís old phone that was recently replaced as we were going to give it to D5 as a toy. I powered it on to test and discovered that my WW had resumed her PA with OM3. I learned that the phone conversations with him over Memorial Day weekend werenít a relapse but part of a total collapse.

Here is the backstory, W went NC on April 13. Her AP sent her a text May 10 on Motherís Day wishing her a good day. WW had one of her BFFís check her blocked messages a few days later and she told her there was one. WW chose to re-engage and responded Thanks. A couple days later on May 14, WW started the barrage of hundreds of texts and calls with OM3. This explained a lot as she stopped watching shows in the evening with me around that time and now I understand it was because she was communicating with him incessantly while lying in the guest bed at night. She made it about 5 weeks NC before giving in to the temptation again. Some of the messages said ďthis was calculatedĒ referring to her staying here for the virus and backing away from him so that I would calm down after OM3 came to our house. She also told him she cringes at the thought of touching me as he always seemed concerned that her and I were having a physical relationship during their A. I donít know if these were things she said to him for appeasement or if she really meant it. ILUs, sexting, and future plans were exchanged daily. She left the kids at our house one of the nights I was on the golf trip Memorial Day weekend to have sex with him at her affair house. A few days later she had him sleep over there one night, then met him for sex in the morning after telling me she had to go into work that day.

So, on that day when the wool was removed from my eyes, WW was working on a project at her affair house. I was livid, thought about it for a few hours and decided I wanted to move forward with D. I sent the following texts:
H: ďDon't bother coming back until you are 100% committed to no contact with your lover.Ē
WW: ďHuh?Ē
H: ďI am done being disrespected. Stay out of my life until you can break free of your addiction.Ē
H: ďI will not live another day in an open marriage. We can proceed with the settlement. You can tell the kids tonight that you are having an affair.Ē
WW: ďMay I ask where the hell this came from?Ē
I did not respond. Instead I gathered her clothes, toiletries, and a few of her other belongings and set them outside the garage. An hour later she texts:
WW: ďI need to feed horses and get my stuff.Ē
I did not respond.

WW came over and fed the horses. She loaded her $hit in the trunk as I brought a bag of her shoes outside to set on the driveway. She asked where all of this came from all of sudden. I told her it doesnít matter and Iím done with all the lies. She continued to press and asked who told you something. I replied I know youíre screwing him again. I repeated Iím done. I said ďYou have to decide right now in this moment, him or me. You will not get another chance. This is the biggest decision of your life.Ē WW went to her car like she was going to leave. She got back out then held out her phone and said ďHere.Ē I looked at it and said ďWhat?Ē wondering if she wanted me to check the message history that was likely erased. She said ďTake it, I wonít do it again.Ē She was offering transparency and to go no contact. She said she would stop forever with tears in her eyes. She had the look of fear, someone crying out for help but to weak to give up her addiction. I couldnít believe it, did she mean it this time or is this her reaction to fear of being kicked to the curb for good. I told her actions are all that matter now. Her words donít mean much to me and that I donít trust her. Actions talk now. She said something along the lines of donít make me regret this and if I donít treat her right and regrets her decision, then she will leave.

We talked for a few hours in the garage. WW started justifying her A again in that we were separated and she waited until she moved out. I asked what about since youíve been back and leading me to believe you were NC with him. Then I asked about OM1 (co-worker). It may not have been physical but you started an emotional affair with him before you gave me the letter (referring to BD on 11/6/2018). I gave her my definition of cheating and thatís anything you share with someone that you wouldnít want your spouse to see or hear. She said the affair started with OM1 the day after our anniversary in 2018. Completely new information to me, turns out this was a PA over 2 months prior to BD!

She said she didnít feel appreciated because we only said happy anniversary to each other during the day, then I went to play basketball at night. I told her affairs during separation meant cheating to me, it may not have to her, but it meant that to me. We continued to voice our needs to each other. I told her no contact whatsoever could ever happen again and she needs to develop a plan for how our marriage will be better. She didnít know where to start, she was at a loss. I told her a NC letter approved by me and sent to him laying out that it was over forever in no uncertain terms is the first step. She agreed to it.

WW said OM3ís a victim, that Iím a victim, and she caused it all. WW was feeling sorry for herself. She said he is a narcissist. I agreed he is and he needs to get his fix from her as his supply. I said he sucked you right back in, itís called hoovering and she said I know. I said he canít get a single available woman so he preys on vulnerable married women like you. I said you jumped right back in with the constant texting and calls, you told me how much of a time suck that was and I asked if that was something she needs. She said no, it is draining and she was going to ask him to scale back on it and all the sexual talk. Then she said maybe sheís the narcissist. I said thatís something youíre going to have to work through yourself, either way itís not your job to save him. Sheís said heís not a bad person or some monster that I want to make him out to be. I replied itís probably easier for me to think of him that way to take some of the blame away from you. She said that he and others have said the same thing about me and that is when I get what I want and that is total control of her, that I will change back and treat her poorly. I told her I intend to keep the changes sheís seen in me for the rest of my life, whether Iím with her or not. I said I realized how destructive they were to us and me as a person and Iím not going back to that. That seemed to reassure her because her friends obviously told her otherwise.

I asked why she was willing to give everything up for a 2% chance of that relationship working out, if she saw a future. She replied she sees no future for her, itís a complete void. The woman is completely lost in the fog. I told her Iíd prefer not to talk about OM3 again beyond whatís needed for the NC letter.

W said she enjoys when we do things as a family like when we go for rides together. One thing she needs is that I never use the kids as pawns to manipulate our relationship. She said she will leave if I do that. She asked me to look her in the eye when I responded to that. She sat there with a blank look on her face saying she doesnít know what to do. If sheís supposed to stay or go. I asked what she was committing to, NC or working on us? I explained when she came back in April that I was hopeful that she was NC with him and might give us a chance. Then, she made it clear that there was no us, so I backed off as I felt she needed time to go through withdrawal from her affair. So, I accepted that and could live with only a commitment to NC for now and not a commitment to us at that time. So, I asked again what is it this time? She said she wouldnít do one without the other, meaning commitment to NC and working on us. I said in that case, I would prefer you to stay, but you are free to stay over there if you would like, it would not upset me. She decided to stay.

A few days after the ultimatum I asked when she was planning to send the NC letter. She said she already did the following day via email, then deleted the account (her secret online dating email address). She doesnít know if he got it and hasnít checked google voice where she would text him. I was displeased and reminded her I wanted to see the letter before she sent it. She said she didnít remember that from our talk. I asked what did it say. She said it was 3 sentences. It said something like ďI have decided to end this relationship for my family. We can have no further contact. I am sorry.Ē

I asked if she meant what she said about me that I make her cringe. She said there are a lot of past hurts that she hasnít gotten past with me. She didnít have those with the OM so she felt a lot of love towards them. I tried to reassure that it gets easier a month, 6 months, 1-2 years later. I asked for a plan for us and said that the first step was no contact so I appreciated she did that. I asked what she meant by telling him coming back was all calculated. I feared she was only here because of what happened on April 13th when OM3 came to our house and I read what she wrote that I was going to use it against her to try and take the kids. She said sometimes it was easier to just say what OM3 wanted to hear then to get in an argument. She said it was draining to text or have calls with him to discuss certain things. I asked if she liked all the constant contact and sexual talk. She said it was getting a little old always circling back to sex. She said she is much better able to verbalize now sexually, she didnít know she had that in her before. She said she likes that occasionally to keep things interesting.

3 days ago I decided to look at her phone as she leaves it out now, not hiding it anymore. She has stuck to NC. However, there was a text to divorced BFF about OM3. W told her she was frustrated and crying the night before, then texted she missed him so damn much, wants to email him but doesnít know what to say. Divorced BFF merely replied Iím sorry youíre sad. Iíve decided that Iím at a point in this sitch that if I see something that crosses my boundary, then Iím going to say something or act. No longer will I let it slide. Iím not going back to a life of living in an open marriage, never again.

I confronted W about it. I told her if sheís going through anything thatís difficult that I would like her to come to me. She said thereís nothing, that she hasnít talked to BFFs about anything. I told her Iím sure itís tough going through this and you havenít been yourself lately. She said Iím fine in a very defensive tone. I told her I read that sheís sad and wanted to email him. She said youíre reading my $hit in a pissed off voice. She said thatís the first time she brought him up in a long time. I said you gave me your phone, I thought you were offering transparency. She said this is not the time, that I always come to her at the worst times, in the morning, at night, when she has to work. I asked when is a good time. She said she doesnít know and left for an appointment. She was annoyed again that I looked through her phone. I guess transparency only matters when Iím ready to end things. I sent her the following texts ďThis $hitís hard. I get it. Really hard to give something up that you were in love with. It will fade. Please come to me when you're struggling. We can do this together.Ē And ďHonesty, transparency, and accountability are the building blocks. When you share with me how you're doing, it makes me feel more connected and it helps rebuild trust. I know you're trying your best. I hope you will feel more comfortable coming to me. If there's something I can do differently to help, please let me know.Ē She made no mention of this the rest of the day.

I will say she has been on her best behavior since. I think she needs to be reminded what sheís committed to and may not have the will power to do it on her own. This reminds me of when I met her and she was a smoker. I hated the smell and taste. She knew it was bad for her and I urged her to quit. She had several relapses and over the course of about 6 months was finally able to stop for good. I had to check in with her regularly to make sure she was sticking to quitting. Over coming her AP addiction is akin to this smoking analogy except several lives are impacted severely by her choices and I donít know if she is strong enough for NC on her own.

My Wís affair fog clock was reset to zero. Now weíre 2 weeks into this latest stint of NC. Rather than sleep in the guest bedroom, W sleeps in D5ís room every night. She has about 5 sets of clothes here. The fish and all of her other clothes and belongings remain at the other house. There has been no marriage plan from her, nary a word about it. W does talk about some future plans and redecorating the house occasionally. W is also starting to distance herself from one of her two BFFs that was not a friend of our MR in my opinion. I was reading up on affair fog on another site and the author, a former WW, described how she tried to break it off with her AP over a dozen times! I think Iím up to her third attempt since sheís been living back in our house.

I realize that my W has been in love with at least 3 OM since the last time she loved me. I try to remind myself that it will take time for her to unwind these feelings through the withdrawal process. She must be asking herself what that meant to her and what does that mean for me and our MR if she allowed herself to choose them for so long. My WW really went off the deep end last summer. It was probably the first of her multiple rock bottoms. For those that remember, I took my kids for a 2 week vacation to California and when I returned, W wanted me to keep the kids every night for a few weeks. There are some things I read on her phone from that time period that confirm she was in a very dark place. She was coming to grips with the enormity of her choices and how toxic she was. Iím not going into more detail about that as she seems to have recovered from that low point.

My sitch continues. Per Steve85ís recommendation, I have a date set for myself where I need to see movement in the commitment to me and working on the MR. W is most definitely not on the same timeline as me, weíll see if she gets there. On a positive note, I see the stability that has returned to my kidís lives. They were so confused going back and forth between houses. The kids were my greatest motivation to stand for my MR during the worst of times. Iím grateful that Iíve reached this point where R could be a possibility.

Another super lengthy update...itís kind of my trademark. Thank you all for the support!


Curtis, you are caught in a vortex...every time your sitch starts to come out of it, it gets sucked back in. I am about to get frank with you because I think you've made and continue to make a lot of mistakes.

First, the basis of all of this is a lack of respect. Your severely WW has no respect for you. NONE. All she has is a fear of losing what she has. She wants her cake and eat it too. What you are doing is forcing her to keep up appearances. For instance, you finally start standing up for yourself, put all of her stuff out, and as soon as she conjures up a few tears, acts remorseful, suddenly you are sucked right back in.

Second, you say action over words, but your update is full of taking her at her word. It really is sad. And then you choose words over action. Setting all of her stuff out to come get: actions = good. Talking for hours in the garage after she feigns remorse: words = bad. You really should look up hoosjim's threads. When his WW relapsed he took some severe steps. Stuck to them. Made her squirm for weeks. And her resolve to keep her family overcame all of the obstacles he had set in front of her. You started to take that action, then folded like a cheap suit. Imagine, telling her you didn't want to hear it, that the time for words was over. And then making her leave. Instead you let her stay, and within hours she is showing you more disrespect.

Third, BELIEVE nothing she says. As another poster asked, how do you know she left for an appointment? How do you know she sent the NC letter? How do you know she closed the secret email account? How do you know? How do you know? How do you know? YOU DON'T! Burner phones. Incognito mode in browsers. Etc. Even the text to BFF smacks of deception, and throwing you off the scent. While she knew you would be upset about seeing her message to BFF, it also would make you think she HADN'T contacted him! Sorry, but when my W stopped her EAs she went through major depression.....FOR DAYS. And that was merely an EA!!! To think she can flip that switch like this is naive.

Fourth, this is above both of you. There is no way either of you are equipped to navigate this. Where were your requirements for IC and MC? Where were your insisting that she do the work on herself. A NC which she then claimed to take care of herself? And claiming to have closed her secret account? And then the disrespect of "Oh, I don't remember you saying that" about wanting to approve the letter and be there when she sent it. And after all you've been through you fall for that crap?

And I see no DBing in your update. I see no GAL (yeah yeah, COVID, blah blah blah, LBSs will use any excuse, I have still GAL through the pandemic). I see no work on your 180s. Yeah some words about "my changes are permanent". WASs are much better at demanding action over words than LBSs. My WW didn't trust my changes for months. She will still occasionally test them just to see if I have really changed this time. And then I see no detachment. No self-differentiation. I see more holding on for dear life. More trying to manipulate and control her. And when she shortcuts it, no ramifications for her actions. Imagine if you ordered her out, the minute she said she had already sent the NC. "Sorry, I am not buying that. This is a violation of our agreement and I want you out of the house by 6pm tonight."

You texted her this:
Originally Posted by curtis7
H: ďI am done being disrespected. Stay out of my life until you can break free of your addiction.Ē


And then you've put up with nothing but disrespect since.

One of the messages you intercepted was VERY telling:

Originally Posted by curtis7

Some of the messages said ďthis was calculatedĒ referring to her staying here for the virus and backing away from him so that I would calm down after OM3 came to our house.


THIS IS EVERYTHING IN THE NUTSHELL HERE. She is calculating how to "keep you calm", manage you. Use her words to smooth things over..........You admit she made it 5 weeks no contact. Why? Because she knew she was going to reestablish it once you let your guard down again. There is nothing she is doing to suggest that this is not the case again. I bet she's even told OM3 "we have to wait for this to all blow over again".

I've told others this, but a friend of mine that cheated on her H told me that the one thing about people that want a cheat is that they will find a way....no matter the obstacles. If they want to cheat bad enough they will move mountains to make that happen.

As far as setting a date. Yeah, that is good....but you should have done this months ago! You are 3 OM in, and I can't even remember how long. It feels like it has been nearly 2 years that you have been dealing this this. curtis7 should have washed his hands of this and moved on a longtime ago. Because she knows if she turns on the waterworks, makes some token efforts, and vaguely hints at maybe eventually trying to work on things, you'll cave and let her walk all over you.

And she just did it again.................................
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 02:18 PM

curtis, was going back through your original thread. Found this I wrote to you on 3/15/19.

"You are obviously watching every move she makes. "She pecked at her phone only to look up when our S was at bat". Come on man, you know she can tell you are watching her like a hawk. She knows you are still attached. She knows at anytime she could promise to make a couple of concessions and have you reattached to whatever level she wants you. Do you think that is worthy of respect?"

In context of your latest update this is EXACTLY what happened. Again.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Hi Curtis,
Originally Posted by Curtis
WW came over and fed the horses.
...
She said thereís nothing, that she hasnít talked to BFFs about anything.

I see. So, as of 3 days ago, she's still lying to you.
CW, yep that's right. She's still ambivalent and defiant.

Originally Posted by CWarrior
Originally Posted by Curtis
She said she doesnít know and left for an appointment.

How do you know where she went?
Well considering she was gone for an hour and a half and returned home with a hole drilled in her tooth and filling. I'm pretty sure she wasn't with OM3.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
She never ever stopped being wayward - ever !. You just try and convince yourself otherwise.
She has gone through spurts of NC; however, I agree her thoughts and actions prove she has not stopped WW.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Again, read whats Sandi writes about genuine remorse and being humble.. This IS NOT remorse - Hence still wayward - arghh
Many have said, WW don't snap back. OM3 is a good man in her eyes. She's not going to be remorseful and humble until the fog clears and she lets go of the addiction. I don't know how long that could take, but NC is the first step to that ever being possible.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
You really are intent on pain or are in la la land - like really - this is where you now stop posting for 4 weeks knowing the 2x4 will be coming your way - to then post again in July, posting a similar story again - and the horse will still be there as a lure to keep the WW around- God bless the horse..
You may be right that I may not post for a while which may indicate a return to WW, her extending an olive branch for the MR, or things remaining the same. Time will tell.

Originally Posted by Scout12

Originally Posted by curtis7
H: ďDon't bother coming back.Ē
Thatís all you needed to say.
Scout, succinct would have done it. She's not back for me. She's back either out of fear of telling the kids about her WW and/or losing her horse and lifestyle that is secure and comfortable.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Curtis, you are caught in a vortex...every time your sitch starts to come out of it, it gets sucked back in.
Steve, the vortex is a great way to put it. Like being on a roller coaster with a tractor beam.

Originally Posted by Steve85
First, the basis of all of this is a lack of respect. Your severely WW has no respect for you. NONE. All she has is a fear of losing what she has. She wants her cake and eat it too.

You say action over words, but your update is full of taking her at her word. It really is sad. And then you choose words over action. Setting all of her stuff out to come get: actions = good. Talking for hours in the garage after she feigns remorse: words = bad. You really should look up hoosjim's threads. When his WW relapsed he took some severe steps. Stuck to them. Made her squirm for weeks. And her resolve to keep her family overcame all of the obstacles he had set in front of her. You started to take that action, then folded like a cheap suit. Imagine, telling her you didn't want to hear it, that the time for words was over. And then making her leave. Instead you let her stay, and within hours she is showing you more disrespect.
You are right, I relented and gave in too easily. D5 witnessed some of that discussion in the driveway and I couldn't bring myself to send WW away. Even if D5 weren't there I still probably would have let your stay out of hope that she meant it this time. I agree with you and see zero respect. Life is full of should haves, I can't go back and change the way I responded and reacted. I'm much stronger than a year ago, if she wants to walkout or go back to him, I know I'll be fine, better than fine.

Originally Posted by Steve85
You admit she made it 5 weeks no contact. Why? Because she knew she was going to reestablish it once you let your guard down again. There is nothing she is doing to suggest that this is not the case again. I bet she's even told OM3 "we have to wait for this to all blow over again".
That is her internal battle. I've gotten stronger each time as we move closer to D. She knows the consequence of continued infidelity. I have made it clear that she will go this far and no farther.

One reason I posted this update was that I was hoping for some advice on whether to continue to be patient since her clock has reset or to lead her towards what I feel moves me closer to my goals...MR plan, MC, her moving her stuff out of the affair house, physical contact, etc. I don't know how to broach these topics and she seems content with limbo. I also don't want to pressure and be controlling while she is in A withdrawal. It's like a delicate balancing act. Thanks everyone for keeping up with me.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 04:44 PM

What I can tell you is that if she ever wants to R, no obstacle will stop her from trying. Until then, consider it all manipulation and further lying to get what she wants. That is why I suggested hoosjim's threads. Once he pulled the plug and his W knew he was serious, she was ready to jump through hoops of fire to get him back. You had one foot in that direction with setting her stuff out.

I think giving her a couple weeks and then telling her that this isn't working and she needs to pack everything and move to her apartment permanently, that you are done for good would be appropriate. Can you tell if she is really going through withdrawals from the A, or do you think she is sad and angry because she got caught...... Again?
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 04:54 PM

Quote


One reason I posted this update was that I was hoping for some advice


But you never follow advice.

Quote


what I feel moves me closer to my goals...MR plan, MC, her moving her stuff out of the affair house, physical contact, etc.


You still don't grasp anything. You are where you were 18 months ago. You really are, but your focus is fix fix fix, - This sentence sums it up perfectly - What YOU want.. Youe wife does not want this. She is done with you, she probably doesnt love you and she does not want to be with you - and she has no respect for you. As both me and CW pointed out, you come over as controlling and you do not listen. This sentence above shows its all about you, and again shows that you only read what you want to read / what you feel helps you.

The best bit of advice is the SAME advice you have received for 18 months.
Detach, stop checking on her, let her go, get rid of the horse and GAL / do 180s.. But you will totally ignore this advice..

Quote

I don't know how to broach these topics and she seems content with limbo


You dont broach these topics.
1) - actions not words - and your actions always have a motive, but never a consequence. File and get rid of the horse - But you wont.
2) - limbo - She is in love with another Man - NOT you. She is cake eating galore. She does not love you, but wants the security / horse / kids / enviroment you provide - But does she want you - No, not at all - But this isnt what you want to hear, so you decide she is in limbo. She wants her AP, not you - drop the rope and let her go.. "please leave ( no ultamatums ) and collect / relocate the horse with in 7 days - goodbye.

Quote

I also don't want to pressure and be controlling while she is in A withdrawal. It's like a delicate balancing act.


She isnt in affair withdrawal and never has been ? Do you really think this - after everything you have read on the wayward mindset ?

Honestly - Please start back on Cadets welcome post Curtis.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 05:52 PM

Hey Curtis,

just DB. You're so worried about her, but you should be worried about Curtis 2.0. Put all that energy into you, you work, your GAL, your happiness, your growth.

You are trying to control, like the others said. You are right there in the middle of conflict with her instead of being the lighthouse...No more long talks, no more worrying about her, no more lies and garbage.

You need NC to find and heal yourself.

Drop the expectations, do what is attractive, etc. I could go on and on, but just do DB basics my man.

Good luck.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 09:06 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
What I can tell you is that if she ever wants to R, no obstacle will stop her from trying. Until then, consider it all manipulation and further lying to get what she wants. That is why I suggested hoosjim's threads. Once he pulled the plug and his W knew he was serious, she was ready to jump through hoops of fire to get him back. You had one foot in that direction with setting her stuff out.

I think giving her a couple weeks and then telling her that this isn't working and she needs to pack everything and move to her apartment permanently, that you are done for good would be appropriate. Can you tell if she is really going through withdrawals from the A, or do you think she is sad and angry because she got caught...... Again?
Steve, I've read hoosjim's thread, it's been awhile, but I remember the actions he took when he saw his WW with OM in the fitness center. When I pulled the plug on my W and set all her stuff out this time, she knew I wasn't taking this crap anymore.

With that said, she's definitely not doing whatever it takes to make it right and show me she wants to R. I don't feel that, many have said I will feel it without a shadow of a doubt. We are not there, she is ambivalent with regards to wanting to be with me long-term.

When she went NC on April 13 she became sad and depressed during the A withdrawal. This coupled with one of her BFF's leading her to believe that I was cheating on her led to the relapse. My W knows that was false information now and has distanced herself from that particular BFF.

So, to answer your question, I honestly think she is trying on this most recent NC attempt which started on June 1 and she is going through withdrawal and not looking for the next opportunity to cheat.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/15/20 11:48 PM

Let her go dear friend. You know where I come from. Iím always pushing for taking time and patience when facing these instances. Sheís used to say what you need to hear too.

Sheís an addicted person. She doesnít respect you, your kids and even herself.
Use the news to kick her out. She needs help from herself first. You need to uncontrol her. You know you do.

Iím sorry man. Sheís still a thousand light years from home.

Free yourself Curtis. You deserve better.

Let her go.
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/16/20 06:00 AM

Curtis,

Well Curtis, I don't think you read what I wrote. But, looks like the same song, just a different day. You always give her options. The, "if you do this, or if you don't do that". You haven't meant any of it and she knows it. When you mean it, she want have options. She will have one choice and only one choice. When you mean, she want have to guess and neither will you. When you mean it, it won't be questions, it will only be actions. So from my vantage point, you haven't meant it, you have only voiced it.

You're not following DB strategies, you still checking her phone, you're not DBing. You are still trying to control her. It's the same ol Curtis, with the same ole actions.

How have you changed,when it comes to interacting with your wife? She's still WW, and there's steps to her recovery and y'all's reconciliation. You are still talking about OM and relationships. You haven't even gotten a def she's in it for the long haul.

Stop repeating the same actions.

Joejoe01
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/16/20 10:30 AM

This was probably one of the toughest reads on these boards in many many years.

You are trying to control her into staying which just makes her go deeper under ground. Sheís not ready to go, because she will lose her cake. But since you let her back with a few tears and words, and knows how play you so good.

You both have a lot of issues. You canít control your wife working in hers but you sure can control yours. Joe joe asked a good question. What have you donít to work on yourself? What are your changes?

Honestly, I donít believe cheaters change. A very small percentage. And of that very small percentage , that person has to do a whole of work. Years of work. My ex cheated on every girlfriend he had since 16. He left me for his AP and they have been married 9 years, and I am pretty sure he has cheated on her. Heck, he would probably cheat on her with me.

The more times you let her do this, and by ďletĒ I mean telling her what she needs to do and her lying that she is going to do it, the more respect she loses for you, the more you lose for yourself, and the more your kids will lose for you as you guys go. She will just become craftier on hiding it.

What should you do Curtis? Iíll be blunt. Kick her lying cheating arse out. You should also really get down to the bottom of your control issues and your allowance for disrespect and turn all of you focus on that. Because you have expended all your energy in trying to make her stop cheating. Itís a waste of energy quite honestly. But helping yourself enever is a waste of energy. Hard work? Yes. But it will always pay off
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/18/20 03:40 PM

I haven't been around in months. But yeah sane old song and dance here. Curtis. Give her a date in the next two weeks to get her [censored] and her horse. And don't say another word. IGNORE HER COMPLETELY!!! No messages, no phone calls, no emails unless concerning lawyers. If she doesn't move her [censored]. You put it out on due date on the curb. Got it! How much more of your life are you going to waste on a bottomless, manipulative, solipsistic, hypergamous, fickle pit. Those years, that time, that energy, that investment. You can't get it back. You have to go stone cold silent on people that don't respect your time, your worth, your energy, and your commitment. The only language they will ever understand in order to reflect on their own poor choices is SILENCE. You can't tell, ration, bargain, respect or relate with someone that has a different impression or perception of you. CUT HER LOSE or you are going to be in even more pain for years to come, and waste time you will never get back. Understand.?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/18/20 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
You have to go stone cold silent on people that don't respect your time, your worth, your energy, and your commitment. The only language they will ever understand in order to reflect on their own poor choices is SILENCE. You can't tell, ration, bargain, respect or relate with someone that has a different impression or perception of you. CUT HER LOSE or you are going to be in even more pain for years to come, and waste time you will never get back. Understand.?

This is good stuff IHC!
Posted By: DaB35

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/18/20 04:42 PM

Curtis,

This sounds like a really difficult situation. I see your frustrations, but also understand other posters here in that you donít seem to change your attitude.

I agree with Steve above. Give her a timescale and implement an action if nothing remotely positive comes out of it.

I disagree with Ginger in that all cheaters donít ever change. Iíve never understood the saying ĎOnce a cheater, always a cheaterí. Some are repentant and improve. Not all drug addicts relapse when they go clean, for example. One quote I read on here was Ďthe best apology is changed behaviourí, so if someone is very serious about changing their past ways or vices, even at the expense of a R or M, they do it (however long that takes) and it sticks, thatís a good thing. Whether the other person in a R/M with them sticks around to see the end result is another matter.

It seems like you both would benefit from IC, separately. Iíd definitely look into that. IC was invaluable for me. I wouldnít be where I am now without it.
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 06/18/20 04:50 PM

I said ďmost, not all.

But I can say her type of serial cheating never changes. She just canít stop and appears sociopath. It wasnít a ďone time oppsieĒ thing. Sheís on to OM 3.

Her only repentance is when she gets caught and itís completely fake to continue to live her cushy lifestyle
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 09:02 AM

Hereís an update I wrote 3 months ago but never posted. Adding now to journal before my next update.

W is now 2 months NC with OM3. She is still a vagabond living in the guest bedroom since the beginning of April. She has about a weeks worth of clothes stuffed in the drawers of the nightstand. Sheíll bring a single article of clothing from her affair house every now and then. I let her be, that seems to be all sheís comfortable with.

We are both working from home throughout the pandemic and we are slowly becoming more comfortable around each other. We are back to being a married couple in many ways during the day and with regards to parenting and making joint decisions about the future. However, there is zero intimacy and affection. At bedtime, she says goodnight about every other night, then retreats into the guest bedroom. The woman has no desire for me and there has been no physical contact.

Iíve gone from my W having an EA, IHS, then PA, then more PAís, then physical separation for a year, moving home back into IHS, failed NC attempts with AP, and now a SSM. The love in this MR is one-sided. This is absolutely not the model of marriage that I want to be setting as an example for my kids. I do ask myself everyday if I am better off pushing forward with the D. Then I decide not today and convince myself that she is going through affair withdrawal. Iíve read the process of letting go of the affair can take weeks or months as the fog slowly lifts before some WAS are able to see the LBS and have some positive feelings return. It sure would be great to bypass all of this and get to the hysterical bonding phase. One thing Iíve learned is that the LBS canít really do much to fast track these things, the WAS is on their own timeline. I try to focus on the positives, sheís here, sheís NC with AP, she talks about a future with me, we laugh and spend time together.

Still, I want more. We are not piecing. She is still working through and deciding if she wants to reconcile. Until we are sleeping together in the same bed in the marital home and she expresses her commitment to our MR in words and actions along with a willingness to prioritize and do the necessary work, we are not piecing.

W and I had a relationship talk a few weeks ago after I pulled a sheet of paper out of her work notebook to make a shopping list. She had some questions written out on the preceding page along with some thoughts: Is OM3 good for me? Is Curtis good for me? Should I stay or should I go? W sensed my demeanor change when I saw what was on the page. I thought about it and decided not to hold back my feelings. After a few minutes I told her that was really bothering me. She started getting extremely defensive just like all the other relationship talks and throwing things back at me. She said she has no time, we donít talk because she has no time in her life, everyone is pressuring her and looking for answers. She said she canít leave now because of the kids. She was/is mad that she was ďforcedĒ to give up talking to someone (OM3) that she cared about.

W said we only have a business relationship and that we have no emotional connection, never have. She feels her Aís were when we were separated so it was okay. She was done with me and my feelings didnít matter to her so it was not a deciding factor for her to stop. W said Iím lucky I made her feel bad about cheating or she would have ended our marriage last year. The guilt kept her from filing. She agreed that sheís still ambivalent and thatís why the fish are still at her house, she has 5 pairs of clothes here, and hasnít moved home.

I said you listed many negatives about me and only a few positives. I asked do those negatives, many of which are long in the past, outweigh my positives? She replied no. I said you seem to focus on them a lot and are bitter and resentful. She saw that was the case and something she needs to work through. I asked if she wanted our marriage to be more than a business relationship. She said yes. I told her I need her help and effort. I asked if she thought we could get there and she replied yes. My takeaway from this talk was that nothingís changed, sheís stuck in outer space light years from home and hasnít moved any closer.

In other news, divorced BFF tested positive for CV-19. Most likely picked up from one of her online dates. Good reason to steer clear of her. Her daughters were with her XH when she found out; however, she confided in my W that she felt it was best until they come back to her before she notify him of her test results. D is so ugly that people are willing to put otherís lives at risk out of spite. Talk about vindictive and selfish behavior.

Widowed BFF complains daily to my W about how her now BF (former AP) who still lives with his babyís mama isnít living up to what he said he would do. Namely visit her and her two kids at least once a week and play new daddy to them. W tells me about all the drama on this womanís life and how her BF isnít meeting her expectations and I ask her why she is putting herself through this stress. W responds I know you donít like her but sheís not going anywhere so youíll just have to deal with it. I let it go. If thatís who W wants to interact with, then thatís her business. I canít fix her problems. W and kids stayed with the widowed BFF on the 1 year anniversary of his passing. W came back the next day and started telling me how BFF is still in the anger phase of the grieving process and has made zero progress. W feels that BFF is using her and canít be alone. W feels taken advantage of by BFF and thinks she may need to start distancing herself from her. Wís eyes teared when she was telling me because she feels as though she doesnít have any good friends in her present life.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 09:11 AM

2 years ago today my W informed me what she had probably decided months earlier that our MR was over. I donít know why but I couldnít sleep and felt compelled to post an update on BD anniversary. Wow, was I a mess back then, that event sent me spinning for months! Iím doing good, Iím still married, W has been back home for 7 months, NC with OM for 5 months, and brought her stuff and fish home 3 months ago.

Most of her clothes are in the master bedroom walk in closet, but she never goes in there. She continues to stuff 2 weeks worth of clothes in the guest bedroom nightstand and closet. She refers to the bedrooms as my room and your room.

For all intents and purposes we are IHS in the time sheís been back. There is zero physical contact and no intimacy as she sleeps in the guest bedroom nightly. I have gone from living in an open MR to now living in a SSM and loveless MR where I donít have a committed partner. Fair warning to any newcomers, this is not for the faint of heart. LH said this could take years to resolve and thatís a fact!

Iíve tried to remind myself that she was ďin loveĒ with her AP. I can imagine it takes time to go through affair withdrawal to unwind and process those feelings and the reasons why she chose to blow up our family. But 5 months, really? How long will this continue? I tried reading Sandiís first posts on the forum when she was WW to glean insight into this process. I had a hard time following the timeline, but it seemed like many months before she started to respect her H after deciding to stick to NC with OM.

W and I usually watch a few shows after the kids go to bed. Then she goes off to sleep typically without saying goodnight. We live together as co-parents and roommates. I go to bed most nights and ask myself if I should press forward with the D. I honestly donít know why I continue to tolerate this type of relationship. I guess itís because I havenít lost hope that one day she will want to start working on MR 2.0. Also, my vows and values are important to me and I get to be with my kids everyday.

I asked her a couple months ago if she wanted to sleep in our bed. She only responded no. A few weeks later she was talking about her plans for her affair house which led to a relationship talk. I asked if sheís happy. She said no and others have asked her but she doesnít know why while crying. I said youíve never said that you want us or a better marriage. She said sheís tried and she doesnít know whatís wrong. She needs more time and feels like I set these deadlines. Like Labor Day when I asked her to sleep in our bed. She said sheís not going to sleep together and give me false hope or fake it. I said I donít want her to fake it either. She wonít be guilted into doing something she doesnít want to do. She said you canít always fix everything. She said sheís broken and asked why I canít let things be. I said I canít live this way the rest of our lives. She said she has no desire for me and the last time she did was 4 years ago. She said the way I didnít help out after our daughter was born may have started it. I asked if she thought I was impatient and she replied yes. I said I get it and asked if there are any positives about me. She said that she likes that I do the laundry (now thereís some real value).

Later that day I texted her a video link from Joe Beam on rejection and said ďWhen you have some time maybe you could watch. It helps explain how I feel. I appreciate you sharing why you're not feeling the same. One thing I've learned is that you don't always get what you want unless you ask...so I asked you.Ē W replied ďI watched the video btw. I will try to be more communicative.Ē I reflected back on this exchange and really listened to what she was telling me which can be simply summarized that she doesnít want me. I took my ring off and boxed it up. Itís not a marriage when only one personís heart is in it.

I donít pressure her anymore. In many ways her behavior is back to what I remember. I havenít verified her NC with OM but her actions show me that the NC is real. She has distanced herself from widowed BFF as she felt used by her. She remains in contact with divorced BFF, but not as often as she is settling in with a new BF. W is kind to me, but maybe a bit more selfish. Occasionally she goes out of her way to do things for me or that I would like. She talks about future plans and we work on home improvement projects together. She seems content with our current situation as is. W does not see an IC so I can only surmise she is trying to work through her issues internally.

I wanted so badly to be a success story here. To prove that people can change for the better, work through their problems, and build a better marriage. Maybe that will happen for me, maybe it wonít. Iíll be fine either way. My W not showing that she wants to R after living here for so many months has made this all much more difficult. I still love her and see things from a different perspective now on how damaged she was/is. Sometimes I look at her and feel anger at how her choices made me feel. However, these flashbacks are fading over time.

I keep busy with S9ís baseball, D6ís softball, working out, and projects around the house. Iíll read a relationship or self improvement book now and then as a refresher and to prevent backsliding on my hard earned changes. These are crazy times. Iíd like to take the family on a trip, even for a long weekend, but it seems unlikely before the holidays.

I was reluctant to post here until I was in firmly in reconciliation or divorced bc I was hit with so many 2x4ís (deserved btw) for not DB. I do keep up on the sitches of others and maybe Iíll be able to give some good advice once I come out the other side of this. Perhaps this journaling will help others in their MRís. Take care everyone.
Posted By: MrBrside

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by curtis7

I asked her a couple months ago if she wanted to sleep in our bed. She only responded no. A few weeks later she was talking about her plans for her affair house which led to a relationship talk. I asked if sheís happy. She said no and others have asked her but she doesnít know why while crying. I said youíve never said that you want us or a better marriage. She said sheís tried and she doesnít know whatís wrong. She needs more time and feels like I set these deadlines. Like Labor Day when I asked her to sleep in our bed. She said sheís not going to sleep together and give me false hope or fake it. I said I donít want her to fake it either. She wonít be guilted into doing something she doesnít want to do. She said you canít always fix everything. She said sheís broken and asked why I canít let things be. I said I canít live this way the rest of our lives. She said she has no desire for me and the last time she did was 4 years ago. She said the way I didnít help out after our daughter was born may have started it. I asked if she thought I was impatient and she replied yes. I said I get it and asked if there are any positives about me. She said that she likes that I do the laundry (now thereís some real value).


One word sums this up - Pursuit.. It was what you wanted, not her


Originally Posted by curtis7

I reflected back on this exchange and really listened to what she was telling me which can be simply summarized that she doesnít want me. I took my ring off and boxed it up. Itís not a marriage when only one personís heart is in it.


With all due respect Curtis, you dont listen - you cherry pick ! - Our sitch dates are weeks apart.. The line above is pretty much standard introduction stuff on this board - and nearly 2 years later and it has finally hit home ?

Originally Posted by curtis7

I donít pressure her anymore. In many ways her behavior is back to what I remember. I havenít verified her NC with OM but her actions show me that the NC is real. She has distanced herself from widowed BFF as she felt used by her. She remains in contact with divorced BFF, but not as often as she is settling in with a new BF. W is kind to me, but maybe a bit more selfish. Occasionally she goes out of her way to do things for me or that I would like. She talks about future plans and we work on home improvement projects together. She seems content with our current situation as is. W does not see an IC so I can only surmise she is trying to work through her issues internally.


Sounds like cake eating here.. Security that you bring - and close to the beloved horse.. WIth zero interest in you or the relationship.

Originally Posted by curtis7

I wanted so badly to be a success story here. To prove that people can change for the better, work through their problems, and build a better marriage.


Sorry - it was never going to happen in the way you wanted it to. You cherry picked the bits that suited you and ignored any advice that didnt tick your boxes. A lot of helpful people have given you a lot of their time and assistance trying to help you - But you only chose to listen to the advice that you wanted to listen to - like 10% if that. Without coming across too harsh, In some ways, you are a success story.. As you are a great example to other LBS's of what happens if you just continue to pressure, persue and ignore advice - 2 years later nothing changes.. Think of where you could be now if you had followed advice 2 years ago - 2 years of living in limbo.. What a waste of 2 years of a life.

Originally Posted by curtis7

Maybe that will happen for me, maybe it wonít. Iíll be fine either way. My W not showing that she wants to R after living here for so many months has made this all much more difficult. I still love her and see things from a different perspective now on how damaged she was/is. Sometimes I look at her and feel anger at how her choices made me feel. However, these flashbacks are fading over time.


You have just stated you dont want to file. You are living in limbo but dont have the **&* to do anything about it.. Hence i wouldnt be suprised if you were still in this situation in another 2 years.. WW using you - not loving you - oh and still with the horse.

Originally Posted by curtis7

I keep busy with S9ís baseball, D6ís softball, working out, and projects around the house. Iíll read a relationship or self improvement book now and then as a refresher and to prevent backsliding on my hard earned changes. These are crazy times. Iíd like to take the family on a trip, even for a long weekend, but it seems unlikely before the holidays.


Changes - you still havent dropped the rope and are hanging onto hope.. This is the biggest change you need to make !!! - you dont need a self improvement book to do that !

Originally Posted by curtis7

I was reluctant to post here until I was in firmly in reconciliation or divorced bc I was hit with so many 2x4ís (deserved btw) for not DB.


But you have neither.. ? You are still hoping for reconciliation - and dont want to D ?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 10:20 AM

C,

So Mr B covered most of it but I saw you referenced me in thread and wanted to clarify. When I said it will take years I meant years of separation and typically D. I could go on and on and you can read a million relationship books but the bottom line is it comes down to one word "respect". Again posted to exhaustion on this website but typically ignored. No respect = no knooky for you.

So two years later you really only have 2 choices. Divorce and move on or come to an agreement where you are together for the kids so there are no expectations continue in separate rooms. Right now because of COVID you have received a pardon from the governor on your stay of execution. If/once COVID ends she will be on tne hunt again for your replacement and there are going to be plenty of low life OMs available.

Hope the kids are doing well.
Posted By: Steve_

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 11:21 AM

Damn Curtis. I get some of the references now. Your sitch is rough. I was on the exact same road your on. 2 months I did all the things you did then OM drop last week, still did more to cherry pick and give myself hope. When she took our kids over there a couple days ago with OM that did it for me. Iím glad it did. I havenít spoke to her since unless itís business. I have given up on what i was doing. My son called my from her apartment last nite crying that he missed me. My stbxw blames me for not calling him. We let them do this to us. My NGS wanted to talk to her and comfort her she was crying to. When i talked to my son and we were done she put the phone back toward her i just hung up. We let them string us along. The reason she doesnít want you Curtis is because she has you. She never lost you man. My W made a joke when I got served D papers ďwe can always get remarried, you would marry me again I know itĒ while I stood there and fought tears. This was A month ago she already was with OM. . I took it as hope, I see it now as utter disrespect.

Iím telling you that I would be in your shoes in two years, friend zoned and tolerated. Because of steve85, LH, Cwarrior telling me how this will play out if I continue, and her breaking the last piece of my heart hurting the kids this way I had to stop. My sitch seemed salvageable to me at first i garuntee if i kept the way i was recon would never ever happen. Iíve done everything for her to make it easy to come back in the past 2 months and she has not. Your getting positive signs but your messing them up by being so available having R talks, going down cheeseless tunnels. If you donít value yourself, respect yourself and stop trying to make her love you this wonít ever change man. I donít know you but I was just like you until I hit rock bottom a couple dayís ago. Give in to the end man. There will never be a new chapter unless you close this book. Draw a line in the sand and be man enough to stand behind it or you will just keep hurting yourself. Donít backslide on self respect. Then you can begin to DB later. I thought I was DBing but I wasnít. I will take months of me just radio silencing her and GAL and LRT before she maybe processes one tiny shard of reality and thatís okay with me time is on my side and I donít know if you are of faith but I feel like god is on my side too. Curtis She will never, ever, ever, process the loss as long as she hasnít lost you man. Donít be afraid, you can do it. We can do it.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 12:20 PM

curtis, not going to 2x4 you. You went your own way, which is fine, it is your sitch! A lot of 2x4s are because folks come here wanting to DB, wanting advice, then completely ignore the advice and do not DB. It frustrates those that are providing guidance. You not posting on the forum for so long to me said your decision was to try to save your marriage in your own manner rather than DBing. As I said above, that is your right.

My prayer for you is that I sincerely hope you can look back with minimal regrets and move on. Your W feels stuck because of the kids. Likely she isn't completely NC with the OM. Or if she is there will be an OM4 shortly. Your sitch is a ticking timebomb to the point where she just no longer cares about how it affects the kids and she pulls the trigger on separation and D. It is a very common path though some WASs take it very slowly.

Hang in there curtis. You clearly are not happy with the way things are, but likely this woman is never going to give you more than she currently is. You need to brace yourself for the next shoe to drop.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by MrBrside
You are living in limbo but dont have the **&* to do anything about it.
Youíre right. I came here to save my MR as did most of us. You chose a different path and perhaps I would be happy if I was D too. Sure, at times I feel like Iíve wasted 2 years of my life. I also take pride that I stood for my MR and honored my commitment even through the worst of times. I believe in forgiveness and that the most important person in your life deserves a second chance. Iíve needed a few myself.

Originally Posted by LH19
So two years later you really only have 2 choices. Divorce and move on or come to an agreement where you are together for the kids so there are no expectations continue in separate rooms.
Iím an optimist and see a third option where she gets over the past, forgives herself, and chooses to try again.

There are many LBS here that are divorced and seem jaded against cheaters and for good reason considering the pain they inflict. I do have a question for former WWs and LBS that have R after EAs/PAs. How long did it take between the WW/WAS initiating NC and moving through A withdrawal until a firm commitment was made to R?

Originally Posted by Steve_
Your getting positive signs but your messing them up by being so available having R talks, going down cheeseless tunnels. If you donít value yourself, respect yourself and stop trying to make her love you this wonít ever change man.
I disagree, my sitch has changed. I shared with my W almost 2 years ago that my 3 biggest fears in our MR were:
1. Not loving me - check
2. Moving out - check
3. Having an affair - check, check, check
All of those fears were realized. The past 2 years have royally sucked. Now, she has moved home and ended the affairs. Thatís progress in my view. So, that leaves regaining respect so that she might love me again. No small feat.

Originally Posted by Steve85
curtis, not going to 2x4 you. You went your own way, which is fine, it is your sitch! A lot of 2x4s are because folks come here wanting to DB, wanting advice, then completely ignore the advice and do not DB. It frustrates those that are providing guidance. You not posting on the forum for so long to me said your decision was to try to save your marriage in your own manner rather than DBing. As I said above, that is your right.
Steve, I appreciate your take on my sitch. I certainly have chosen my own path. My W telling me that she has been unhappy for 4 years lends me to believe sheís been in MLC for quite some time. When I joined the forum I was told she was WW and not in MLC, but thatís besides the point. I donít care what you call it.

W had multiple PAs and neglected our kids. She regularly tells me how she sees herself aging and has invested a lot of time and effort into keeping a younger look. She validated that all kinds of men are attracted to her especially those that didnít care she was married. Sheíll be 40 soon and I see her coming to grips with that fact. She is back to prioritizing our children and to me seems to be slowly exiting the fog.

Iím not happy living this way indefinitely and donít know what will be the ultimate catalyst for the next shoe to drop from one of us.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 03:58 PM

Ok Curtis I can see this is how itís gonna go so Iíll make this my last post. We are not necessarily bitter against affairs we just realized that these WWs arenít worth the BS. Their broken and they donít want to fix themselves and there is many other amazing people in the world who see our value. Most important we know are own value.

Here is typical Curtis. My W was misdiagnosed sheís in MLC. Again Curtis 6 years here and your W is hands down the worst WW Iíve seen. Though news Steveís W is a close second.

Your W will never see you more then a platonic roommate. That I can promise you. You can wait another 100 years for her MLC (LH eye roll) to be over.

I just hope your kids survive this with minimum damage.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7

There are many LBS here that are divorced and seem jaded against cheaters and for good reason considering the pain they inflict. I do have a question for former WWs and LBS that have R after EAs/PAs. How long did it take between the WW/WAS initiating NC and moving through A withdrawal until a firm commitment was made to R?


I am not D'd. My W had an EA not a PA. Yet I am still jaded against cheaters. Especially, MULTIPLE OFFENDERS!! Your W has 3 OM. Likely on the prowl for OM #4 (or at least just another "right opportunity" away from a #4). And yet you give us a list like this:

"1. Not loving me - check
2. Moving out - check
3. Having an affair - check, check, check"

And then this:

"Iím an optimist and see a third option where she gets over the past, forgives herself, and chooses to try again."

Here is my question for you curtis. Why is your self-esteem so low that you could let someone treat you this way for this long without finally saying "enough is enough" and taking decisive action to move your own life forward?!

And LH nailed it with your kids. I am about as anti-D as they come, but your children watching this for this long is going to have lasting effects on how they view relationships, and will potentially set them up for toxic, bad relationships in their own lives. So while you are holding on tight, hoping for her to magically wake up from her fog (insert a giant Steve85 eyeroll along with LH), the damage that is being done to your children, potentially irreversible, is concerning. At some point curtis you have to stop wanting what you want so badly, and think about them.

And spare me the "oh they don't know what is going on" speech. Kids are way more perceptive about this stuff then you could ever imagine.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 04:29 PM

One last thing on MLCs. If it truly is an MLC.....sometimes MLCs are for the rest of their life! So sitting and waiting for it to magically end may be a LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG wait.
Posted By: Ginger1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 07:28 PM

How exactly are you gaining respect???
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 08:00 PM

Hey Curtis,

glad to see you posting again. Hopefully you can help out some of the people here because you've been through plenty and know a lot at this point.

Everything sounds rough, so I hope you and the kids are well. You don't have to be a stranger, everyone wants to support you they just find it hard to see you going through such a tough time.

Choose happiness my friend!
Posted By: neffer

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 08:11 PM

Thatīs exactly what I was going to post Ovr!


Curtis, Steve! You need to BE HAPPY

Learn to accept yourselves. Love yourselves first. Find happiness inside. It is there.

Search for a member called "Denver". Read his story.
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 08:11 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
There are many LBS here that are divorced and seem jaded against cheaters and for good reason considering the pain they inflict. I do have a question for former WWs and LBS that have R after EAs/PAs. How long did it take between the WW/WAS initiating NC and moving through A withdrawal until a firm commitment was made to R


Well to answer this question, I have to elaborate on something. And that's respect. At the end of September 2017, I found out my WW was still talking to her AP. Two weeks before that she told me she had stop talking to him. The night I discovered she was still talking to him, she was planning to me up with him in a another city in a couple of weeks. Mind you, that night she asked me to watch a movie with her, and for the past couple of weeks, she was asking me to spend time with her. I took it as, her coming around. But it wasn't! So that night in September, when I discovered her still talking to him. I HAD ENOUGH. I didn't care anymore, I still wanted my marriage, but I wanted my RESPECT much more. I'm built to not deal with disrespect for toooooo long. So I woke her up, it's was like 2 or 3 a.m. And I showed her, her messages. She looked all crazy, and I told her she had two choices. She could either continue talking to him and leave or stop talking to him and stay, but as long as you stay here stay. I knew I couldn't force it, but it she would of choose to continue talking to him, our truck would of been packed up with her Sh$t the next day. She told me she needed time to decide. I told her, her time was up!!!! She needed to answer right now. She choose to stay. Over the next few weeks. I got the hell away from her. I had no more need to be around a cheater and liar.

After that night, I didn't ask her a dam thing about her life, I continue to live my life and work on my relationship with my boys. At the middle of October, she asked me to go to counseling. I said ok. I didn't beg her to go, she kept pushing off the counseling day she requested, I told her, this is my last time requesting a date. She ending up going on the last day I requested. Then on or around Halloween, I asked what the h@ll we are doing, because I'm trying to move forward with my life (my slight mistake), but she said, "I don't know about you, but I'm working on the Marriage". I was shocked. I walked off and said ok. Then over the next month, we started to become physical. On or around New Years, I told her she needs to write up a "No contact" letter, and let me read it before she send it to him. I read it and reworded. She accepted my revision of the "No Contact" letter and sent it to him.

Notice, that her acceptance of anything dealing with our relationship or Marriage came after, I put my foot down and didn't tolerate her disrespect and actions.

I also made it known, through my actions that I would/will be ok without her. I started respecting myself after I found this site at the end of August. I made myself a person only a fool would leave.

What also crazy, I read in some of her text to her AP, he was getting upset with her, because, she was talking about me too much to him. Asking him, why I was doing certain things. She was also, doing google searches on numbers I was calling in my phone. I was basically detaching myself from her while we were still married.

One night, in the beginning of September, she asked me was I cheating on her, because, I was doing so much stuff outside the home. I just looked at her like, "it's none of your business anymore, what I'm doing. She told me that she started to dread the thoughts of me being with another woman.

Your Wife hasn't had a chance to miss you, because she has never LOST you or been given the opportunity to think she was going to loss you. You are so accessible, you might as well be her coat in a closet. She puts you on when she gets cold, but, while she's hot you are put up in the dark closet.

You get 2X4's because we care about you. We care about your family and marriage, but to be honest, all your actions, show you only care about yourself. Even your list is full of selfish intent. Stop being selfish and start loving. And allowing people to make their own decisons is a part of that process. Your W don't/won't/can't love you because you won't allow her to with your actions. She is being smothered with you and your impatient for her to make a decision to choose you. SHE DON'T WON'T YOU. YOU are not attractive. All your actions are unattractive. Stop doing unattractive things and stop loving your wife and sometimes, loving a person, is letting go! When you love a person you allow them to make themselves happy without you intervening in the process of their decision making.

The reason, why you didn't come back because of the 2x4s are because, you didn't like what we were telling you. You didn't like hearing that we didn't agree with your actions or your W actions. The truth hurts, it's painful, and you or you WW can't heal until you both deal with the truth. You ar lying to yourself about your entire situation. Stop lying to yourself, so you can stop lying your WW to LIE to YOU.
Posted By: may22

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 08:12 PM

Hey Curtis,

I would suggest checking out the MLC board and consider moving your thread over there. There are a number of people in similar situations to you (long-term IHS) and the vibe over there is very different from this one.

If you haven't followed IronWill's thread on this board either, I'd suggest you read it, as he's been in IHS for going on two years. He has a really great recent post with advice for people walking a similar path to him that you might find helpful-- I did. I think if you're going to continue down this path, really focusing on yourself and detachment is going to be key.

Also, this:

Originally Posted by joejoe1
Your Wife hasn't had a chance to miss you, because she has never LOST you or been given the opportunity to think she was going to loss you. You are so accessible, you might as well be her coat in a closet. She puts you on when she gets cold, but, while she's hot you are put up in the dark closet.

You get 2X4's because we care about you. We care about your family and marriage, but to be honest, all your actions, show you only care about yourself. Even your list is full of selfish intent. Stop being selfish and start loving. And allowing people to make their own decisons is a part of that process. Your W don't/won't/can't love you because you won't allow her to with your actions. She is being smothered with you and your impatient for her to make a decision to choose you.

This is gold.
Posted By: sandi2

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/06/20 10:48 PM

Quote
I do have a question for former WWs and LBS that have R after EAs/PAs. How long did it take between the WW/WAS initiating NC and moving through A withdrawal until a firm commitment was made to R?


That answer will vary b/c everyone doesn't progress at the same speed, and for some, there are additional issues that might extend the time........like mental health problems, etc. I was blessed to have the cream of the crop mentoring to me. When I first arrived here on the board, I think my A had ran about nine months. I can't remember exactly how many months in total that it took to cease the A withdrawals after NC. The first 4 - 6 months were the worst, but it took several months total. Keep in mind, I was here every day getting fed what I needed.

At that time, we could also email our mentors, so I was getting a lot of emotional support off the board. I was very depressed, and had no energy or desire to put any effort toward my MR. My mentors had stressed the importance making the commitment to my M, and I honestly didn't feel that I could. In other words, I felt much like your W probably feels now, and I felt it was a death sentence! Sorry, just being honest. Anyway, I did go NC, weathered through many months and still had no desire to work on my M. You see, I think maybe LBH's believe that once his W ends her A, her feelings for him return and they go from there. It's just not that easy.

It took me two years, after NC, before I felt remorse for what I had done to my H. Bear in mind, I was being mentored all that time. I was learning from LBS's about the devastation they experienced. It helped me to look through my resentment to see my H. I had to reach a place where I completely accepted responsibility, and could forgive my H for not meeting my emotional needs in the past. How could I be forgiven, if I wouldn't forgive him? So, women who are not getting that type of guidance and feed back........causes my hope for them to dim. They are not here, so I tell LBH's. They need a source to inform them of what to expect, and explain why they are experiencing certain emotions, what they need to do, etc. I was not in contact with OM during those two years, but I was keeping the fantasy alive in my head by dreaming of how different my life might have been, etc. sick

It was a slow work in progress. One thing I did do that I believe is critical........I intentionally conducted myself in a way to show respect for my H. I understood that I could not feel sexual attraction for my H, if I did not respect him as a man. So, I worked hard on my attitude, speech, body language, facial expressions, and over-all actions. At first, the feelings of admiration were not there, but eventually, the feelings came to match the action.

Curtis, the circumstances in which your W returned to the home, is not ideal by any means. I don't think the LBH should agree to her return, if she wants to have separate bedrooms. They don't have to be sexually intimate, but they most certainly need to share the marital bedroom. Your W is the betrayer and she's returned on her own terms. She's calling the shots about the relationship, and I've not seen that to prove successful during the time I've been here. Asking her to go to bed with you? No, you aren't going to get very far with that approach, b/c you are too thankful to just have her under the same roof. She KNOWS you are willing to take whatever conditions she gives, b/c you want the security of her physically under the roof. In her eyes, it devalues you as a man.

Here's the thing, a lot of guys get confused about their idea of a what it means to be a good H. Of course, women want a good H, don't get me wrong......but she craves a man who is stronger than her and who will take none of her crap. She's already fulfilled the top three things you said were your greatest fears, so how do you think she sees you now that she's done all of that and you're just so happy to have her staying in the guest bedroom, cramming her things in the bedside table? That behavior alone, tells me she doesn't plan to do anything to indicate she's there permanently. No matter what b.s. she gives, she is not back for you or the MR. I would go as far to say she's not back for the sake of her children, although that's the story she'll give.

So, I'm afraid you are in for more uncertainty, and years of no intimacy. This woman wants a lot of male attention, but she doesn't want you. She looks to men to feed her ego, b/c she is afraid of losing her youth and beauty. I went through some of that myself, and that led to an A. You could tell her how beautiful she is till you turn blue, but due to her unhealthy mindset, it doesn't count if it's her H saying those things. She wants admiration from other men, to validate her.

You need to figure this out, Curtis, and decide what you will tolerate the rest of your life. She has gone through three men, that you know about, and who knows how many EA's. This woman has not finished behaving like an unmarried lady. It's heartbreaking to read your posts, b/c you remind me of my own H in many ways. You are a good man, treat people right and have the patience of Job.........but it doesn't attract your W, due to her own mindset. She is taking advantage of the security you provide during these scary days. That's what she does. Takes advantage of you! You can't talk her back and you sure can't nice her back. She's in a mental place that your niceness doesn't reach. My guess is she'll need lots of therapy before she returns to being anywhere close to the woman you loved as your W. She has issues that have nothing to do with you, but the outcome affects you. She's got to figure that stuff out, and you can't do it for her. So, make up your mind what you are willing to settle for........b/c that's all you've done at this point, just settled for what few crumbs she throws. You've hinged all your hope to her snapping out of this "whatever", and seeing the light of day. Whenever a woman is scared like OM scared her the night his car showed up at your place, and then she still wants to contact him "b/c she cares about him".........she's messed up!

I know LBH's come here looking for hope. However, I think that kind of hope prevents them from being objective and applying tough love where needed........b/c they are in this fog of hopefulness. That's why you've held on to the dream all this time. Could it happen? IDK, but I'm pretty sure it won't be like you thought or hoped it would be, nor happen anytime soon. In most of the successful cases I've witnessed, it occurs after the LBH decides he isn't going to just "settle". He let's go.

I knew when you asked how long it took some of us, you were trying to decide how long you could wait around to get a little affection or some positive sign from her. I'm sorry. I really am sorry for you. ((hugs))
Posted By: Steve_

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/07/20 07:53 PM

Something ive had to come to terms with.

As long as I am available to her, she will never value me. And even if I become unavailable she still may never again value me. So being concerned about what she will do is a recipe for disaster and more heartbreak, you absolutely have to just do what you need to do for you and if she wants to be there she will make it clear to you eventually or not. I hope that helps brother.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
Again Curtis 6 years here and your W is hands down the worst WW Iíve seen.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Here is my question for you curtis. Why is your self-esteem so low that you could let someone treat you this way for this long without finally saying "enough is enough" and taking decisive action to move your own life forward?!
I have high esteem, value, and self worth. I also owe my W time to work through her issues. I had an amazing partner for over a decade and a half. That person didnít just up and disappear, she became wayward. She made choices that cut deep and hurt me more than anything I thought a person could. I am not blameless in this and did many things over the years that caused her to resent me and open herself up to the temptation of others. Yes, it absolutely [censored] beyond belief how far she took it by leaving and having multiple affairs. Nevertheless I will defend and support her now that she has returned home as I see the loving and caring woman that I married is still in there. This doesnít mean she wants to be with me.

Originally Posted by Steve85
And LH nailed it with your kids. I am about as anti-D as they come, but your children watching this for this long is going to have lasting effects on how they view relationships, and will potentially set them up for toxic, bad relationships in their own lives. So while you are holding on tight, hoping for her to magically wake up from her fog (insert a giant Steve85 eyeroll along with LH), the damage that is being done to your children, potentially irreversible, is concerning. At some point curtis you have to stop wanting what you want so badly, and think about them.

And spare me the "oh they don't know what is going on" speech. Kids are way more perceptive about this stuff then you could ever imagine.
I think about this often and it pisses me off that my kids see the way that W and I live together. This is not the relationship model I want them to believe is acceptable. I made some very bad choices since BD which didnít show that I valued self respect. Instead it showed my kids that it was okay for someone to treat you poorly. I canít go back and change that and I pray that this limbo is coming to an end to minimize the long term damage on my kids so they donít experience this in their relationships.

Just the other day, D6 said to her mom I know why you had to leave our house and go to the other house. Itís because you were fighting with dad. W replied weíre not fighting at all. Itís like my daughter now believes a good solution is to pickup and run away rather than work through marital issues based on what her mother has shown her. Sad.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by neffer
Thatīs exactly what I was going to post Ovr!

Curtis, Steve! You need to BE HAPPY

Learn to accept yourselves. Love yourselves first. Find happiness inside. It is there.

Search for a member called "Denver". Read his story.
Nef, Ovr, thanks for the supportive posts. Iíve always appreciated your advice. I am happy, but like most I want what I canít have. Would be great if we could put all the crap behind us and not worry about that ever happening again.

I read through some posts by Denver_2010 (his posts are longer than mine lol). He showed a PMA while being on the rollercoaster for a long time. He described it as fake it til you make it. I fake happiness around my W at times too. Itís hard, especially when you think about how how easily she gave herself to the OM, but wonít give the same to me. Itís important to remember that most people donít want to be around others that are sad and depressed so itís better to act as if. I try to remember and implement this mindset.

Denver also wrote about playing his ace in the hole of pressing forward with D. He was fed up and done when his WW wouldnít go NC and took this step. It turned out to be the driving force for her to finally realize what she was giving up. I was in much the same place on June 1st when I discovered the PA was continuing behind my back. I told my W not to bother coming back and I absolutely meant it. I wanted nothing more to do with her and fully accepted it was time to initiate the D. When she came back that night and handed over her phone and committed to NC I was caught off guard. I do see that I took her back too easily. She didnít have to experience the feeling of fully losing me.
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by joejoe1
Then on or around Halloween, I asked what the h@ll we are doing, because I'm trying to move forward with my life (my slight mistake), but she said, "I don't know about you, but I'm working on the Marriage". I was shocked. I walked off and said ok.
Joe, thanks for sharing this, it helps put the respect youíre talking about into perspective. I have to say your sitch turned around rapidly once you put your foot down. You are fortunate that you didnít have to be patient for long. Your W didnít move out to see what she was giving up. My WW was much farther gone.

What was your slight mistake? Asking her what the two of you were doing or adding the part about you moving forward with your life?
Posted By: curtis7

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Sandi2
When I first arrived here on the board, I think my A had ran about nine months. I can't remember exactly how many months in total that it took to cease the A withdrawals after NC. The first 4 - 6 months were the worst, but it took several months total. Keep in mind, I was here every day getting fed what I needed.

At that time, we could also email our mentors, so I was getting a lot of emotional support off the board. I was very depressed, and had no energy or desire to put any effort toward my MR. My mentors had stressed the importance making the commitment to my M, and I honestly didn't feel that I could. In other words, I felt much like your W probably feels now, and I felt it was a death sentence! Sorry, just being honest. Anyway, I did go NC, weathered through many months and still had no desire to work on my M. You see, I think maybe LBH's believe that once his W ends her A, her feelings for him return and they go from there. It's just not that easy.
Sandi, I think the lack of feelings for your H and sentiment towards your MR after going NC describe my W to a T. You were blessed to have mentors that kept you on track. It took a lot of courage for you to come the boards and get the help you needed. I realize my chances donít look so good without my W appearing to work on herself and no MC to lead us along a proven path.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
It took me two years, after NC, before I felt remorse for what I had done to my H. Bear in mind, I was being mentored all that time. I was learning from LBS's about the devastation they experienced. It helped me to look through my resentment to see my H. I had to reach a place where I completely accepted responsibility, and could forgive my H for not meeting my emotional needs in the past. How could I be forgiven, if I wouldn't forgive him? So, women who are not getting that type of guidance and feed back........causes my hope for them to dim. They are not here, so I tell LBH's. They need a source to inform them of what to expect, and explain why they are experiencing certain emotions, what they need to do, etc.
I donít know what level of remorse my W might feel. She certainly hasnít expressed remorse in a manner that matters to me. Are you suggesting that I inform my W what she is going through, how this process might play out, and what steps are needed for it to be successful much like your mentors did for you?

Originally Posted by Sandi2
Here's the thing, a lot of guys get confused about their idea of a what it means to be a good H. Of course, women want a good H, don't get me wrong......but she craves a man who is stronger than her and who will take none of her crap. She's already fulfilled the top three things you said were your greatest fears, so how do you think she sees you now that she's done all of that and you're just so happy to have her staying in the guest bedroom, cramming her things in the bedside table? That behavior alone, tells me she doesn't plan to do anything to indicate she's there permanently. No matter what b.s. she gives, she is not back for you or the MR. I would go as far to say she's not back for the sake of her children, although that's the story she'll give.

So, I'm afraid you are in for more uncertainty, and years of no intimacy. This woman wants a lot of male attention, but she doesn't want you. She looks to men to feed her ego, b/c she is afraid of losing her youth and beauty. I went through some of that myself, and that led to an A. You could tell her how beautiful she is till you turn blue, but due to her unhealthy mindset, it doesn't count if it's her H saying those things. She wants admiration from other men, to validate her.

You need to figure this out, Curtis, and decide what you will tolerate the rest of your life. She has gone through three men, that you know about, and who knows how many EA's. This woman has not finished behaving like an unmarried lady. It's heartbreaking to read your posts, b/c you remind me of my own H in many ways. You are a good man, treat people right and have the patience of Job.........but it doesn't attract your W, due to her own mindset. She is taking advantage of the security you provide during these scary days. That's what she does. Takes advantage of you! You can't talk her back and you sure can't nice her back. She's in a mental place that your niceness doesn't reach. My guess is she'll need lots of therapy before she returns to being anywhere close to the woman you loved as your W. She has issues that have nothing to do with you, but the outcome affects you. She's got to figure that stuff out, and you can't do it for her. So, make up your mind what you are willing to settle for........b/c that's all you've done at this point, just settled for what few crumbs she throws. You've hinged all your hope to her snapping out of this "whatever", and seeing the light of day. Whenever a woman is scared like OM scared her the night his car showed up at your place, and then she still wants to contact him "b/c she cares about him".........she's messed up!
Wow! Thank you for this Sandi. I appreciate your assessment. You remember the details of what Iíve shared. Iíve read this several times trying to let it sink in. Years of no intimacy crosses a boundary of mine. Iíve lived a year of S and know that Iíll be just fine. I need to decide how much longer I will settle and tolerate this. I canít imagine she is happy. Who knows, maybe she gets enough emotional release by having me to talk to during the day and doesnít want physical intimacy right now due to the damage it caused to those closest to her. We are both very stubborn people, whatever the case, I highly doubt she will accept this living situation until the kids move out, I certainly wonít.

I had this misconception that she would just snap back after ending her A and going NC. I guess I related it to the day I was BD, within minutes I saw everything crystal clear. That was my awakening for realizing my poor behavior in the MR and from that time forward I made a commitment to improving myself, learning what it takes to be a good H, and being AMOAFWL. The difference is I wasnít in love with someone else and hadnít given up on our MR, I just wasnít loving her the way she needed to meet her emotional needs. In that sense, it was very easy for me to commit to doing the hard work. I see how rare it is for a WW to have a quick turnaround or to return to respecting and loving her LBH at all. Itís very sad.

Originally Posted by Sandi2
I know LBH's come here looking for hope. However, I think that kind of hope prevents them from being objective and applying tough love where needed........b/c they are in this fog of hopefulness. That's why you've held on to the dream all this time. Could it happen? IDK, but I'm pretty sure it won't be like you thought or hoped it would be, nor happen anytime soon. In most of the successful cases I've witnessed, it occurs after the LBH decides he isn't going to just "settle". He let's go.

I knew when you asked how long it took some of us, you were trying to decide how long you could wait around to get a little affection or some positive sign from her. I'm sorry. I really am sorry for you. ((hugs))
Sandi, you are amazing! I get so much out of your posts because you put into perspective how the LBH is viewed by the WW. The insight into her mindset is invaluable. Thank you so much for taking the time to help me.
Posted By: SteveLW

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 02:55 PM

Curtis you're in denial. She did up and disappear. Maybe to never return. The woman you now deal with IS NOT the same person that you spent 15 years with. Sorry, but until you face that reality you will continue to be stuck.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by curtis7
I have high esteem, value, and self worth.

I spit my coffee when I read this statement.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I also owe my W time to work through her issues.

How much time? It's been two years.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I had an amazing partner for over a decade and a half.

Yep. So did I but that person is gone and most likely never coming back. People change Curtis.
Originally Posted by curtis7
That person didnít just up and disappear, she became wayward.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmm. Sandi only mentioned it about a thousand times. The girl you married is gone.
Originally Posted by curtis7
She made choices that cut deep and hurt me more than anything I thought a person could.

And she could care less about how you feel.
Originally Posted by curtis7
I am not blameless in this and did many things over the years that caused her to resent me and open herself up to the temptation of others. Yes, it absolutely [censored] beyond belief how far she took it by leaving and having multiple affairs.

None of us are blameless Curtis.
Originally Posted by curtis7
Nevertheless I will defend and support her now that she has returned home as I see the loving and caring woman that I married is still in there. This doesnít mean she wants to be with me.

I will say it again Curtis. A woman will NEVER be in love with a man she doesn't respect.

Best of luck C!
Posted By: joejoe1

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 05:25 PM

Curtis,

WooooooW!!! Are we being punked? Please tell us! Just in case we are not!

I think you in a lot of denial. Even when you tried to describe telling your W in June about you're not dealing with her stuff anymore, it was a bluff. It you were done, you would of been done.

I said I messed up, IMO, because at the end of OCT, I had already started talking to lawyers. I asked my W about where we stood (asking her this was temp checking). Her answer shocked me. I wanted to start moving forward with MY life. And her answer, brought me back to a place that I thought I had overcame. Your actions are still trying to get a reaction out of your W. I guess, maybe in someway so did I.

You have these comparisons to other people situations, but they aren't equivalent. You are so steadfast to have ONE/1/UNO OUTCOME that you aren't making logical and rational decisions. IMO you are only taking actions, that you think will lead to RECON.

You keep talking about her at least being back at the house, CURTIS, she's living out a suitcase in her own home, she's ready and prepared to bounce at any moment notice. She hasn't committed to you or the family. She is only committed to herself. Once again, if you truly love her, you would allow her to go, you would get out of her way, and you would let go of that rope you have been holding on so TIGHT. If you want you WW to come back (maybe), you are going to have to allow her to go, with no conditions, with no guilt, but with LOVE. Because, she will never come back under that conditions you'll are living in NOW!
Posted By: job

Re: Persistent Endurance (Part 8) - 11/13/20 06:28 PM

Time for a new thread and please link this one to it.
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