Continuing Forward - DivorceBusting.com

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Just opening up my new thread. Not a lot to report. I sent H the text as advised (thank you Scout!) and a few hours later got �ok thank you� in response.

Since then H is being overly nice, trying to connect with me, complimenting my hair, etc. It�s much easier for me to remain cordially distant at this point. Largely because I�m angry and disappointed with him over the way he�s interacted with me and treated me in regard to the coparenting conflict we dealt with. I�m barely responding to him and his attempts at connection with me, unless it�s directly about D4.

In all honesty, there is still a part of me saying �wait! He�s trying to connect with you! Don�t be discouraging!� But I�m ignoring her. And reminding her that listening to her in the past hasn�t gotten me anywhere good. And telling her to remember his recent poor treatment of me. That helps.

It�s somewhat frustrating and annoying that he tries so hard to connect with me now that I�m consistently pulling away from him, considering the obvious fact that he is getting what he says he wants. But you were right Scout, taking control of the narrative a bit by turning down his paltry offer of a �talk� was empowering.

I have lots to keep me busy during this very lonely and isolating time. Lots of time with my daughter, a very rigorous and time consuming job search, etc.

You are changing the dynamic. Every time you pull away your H seems to be overly nice.

What you are doing reminds me of MWD in the book when she talks about experiments. You are trying out something different, keeping your distance whereas you used to jump at the chance to reconnect. See how it goes. It's a little test. Maybe that will help make it easier to stick to it.

It seems like your H is trying to smooth things over because he sees you are ticked off. This has happened a couple times in your situation -- you pull away, he gets nicey-nicey. It's possible I am wrong, mind-reading is a no-no. I definitely think it would be a mistake to read his compliments as an effort to connect. More likely he is having difficulty adapting to your changes.

I�m glad you felt empowered by taking action. I also agree with U�s take on the situation. You did really well!

Detachment is a process and there will be times when your equilibrium will be rocked, but it gets easier to steady yourself with practice. I just posted in my thread on the MLC board about S2 coming home from his Easter visit talking about OW and even telling me she changed his nappy. Now, I don�t like this at all. It�s unpleasant and uncomfortable to hear, think, and talk about. For me, dealing with emotional upset looks something like this...

Number one, I remind myself that these feelings are normal and okay. I am not weak or backsliding in my recovery by having a natural reaction to something that is objectively upsetting. It also tells me that my expectations of XH behaving with respect or honour were too high, ie. above zero, and I need to keep that in check.

Number two, I talk in person or over the phone with some trusted family or friends to validate my feelings FIRST before seeking a positive perspective on the situation. I don�t want to hear �Well, at least xyz didn�t happen� or �You�ll just have to accept it� unless they�ve already told me �Wow, that really [censored]� or �I�m sorry that happened�. The right people will know how to respond with empathy.

Number three, I type it out in my DB thread to ensure I have a record of what happened and how I felt. If anyone weighs in with their opinion, that�s a bonus. Getting these thoughts and feelings down on paper helps release more emotional tension. In the same way you feel better after throwing up, you also feel better after a good word vomit.

Number four, it�s time to GAL and let things percolate in the background, even if GAL is simply going to bed early. Focus on self care and all the good things about being single. Remind yourself that nobody can ever usurp your role as mother. Thank whatever deity that you are not quarantined with your H and exposed to his mood swings right now!

I get you. It�s lonely and hard. But you are not alone

Thanks to you both!!

U�I agree, my consistency is changing the dynamic. Regardless of what that means ultimately, it feels good to not be so stuck in place. You�re right, this change has taken place a couple of times, but in the past I�ve gotten sucked back in to his nicey nice stuff. This time I�m doing my best to resist that. I won�t lie, it can be painful and I usually cry afterwards. But I�m strong in his presence.

Scout�-firstly I want to say that what you are describing with your son and OW makes my blood boil and I really empathize. That must feel terrible. I�m SUPER impressed with how you seem to be handling it, and accepting that it is out of your control (which in and of itself just seems impossibly wrong, yet still true).
As far as I know there is not OW in my sitch right now, and if D4 was a part of anything like that I would most certainly know about it from her.
But that inevitable aspect of divorce/coparenting in general is one of the worst parts to imagine for me. What you�re saying is a reminder for me to be grateful I�m not having to deal with that this far, and grateful for more time to try to come to terms with that very real possibility for the future.

I want to admit here that I think I had a minor setback in my current approach. On Friday H texted to ask what my plan for Easter was. (D4 was scheduled to spend yesterday and last night with him, and to be dropped off this morning [easter]). I replied � I�m planning on an egg hunt at home and a basket from the Easter Bunny�. This is where I backslid and also asked �why do you ask?� (I SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT!!! I should have answered his question and left it at that.)
He replied: It crossed my mind to ask if you wanted to all do something together but didn�t know if it was a good idea or not. Just putting out feelers. The meadow near here would be fun to hunt eggs but I dont want to encroach on your plans.

I didn�t respond because I had all kinds of feelings about it and didn�t want to react too quickly. I shouldn�t have responded at all. The next day I said �I don�t want to change my plans. If you want to be here for what I already have planned you can�. And he replied that he�d �give it some thought�. AAAAAAXXXXKKKKKKGGGGCCHHHHH!!!! It was his suggestion to do something all together and now he has to give it some thought?! Nonsensical.

I�m Pretty sure he was testing the waters, I let him know they were still tepidly warm (as opposed to icy) and he recoiled.

I realized and regretted that slip right away and just said �ok just let me know before you drop off D4 tomorrow�. He of course decided not to stay. He dropped off D4 this morning. They had made a little Easter basket with candy for me. I just focused on her excitement about the egg hunt I�d set up and waved him off.

ANNOYING. But I recovered quickly and I�m back on that horse. I didn�t want to hide that from my mentors

Tell yourself you don�t care next time. Acknowledge that you do, but act is if you don�t. Trick your brain. You don�t care why he is asking you a particular question. You don�t care if he wants to join you in a particular activity. You don�t care whether he feels left out, lonely, lacklustre, lascivious, or any other kind of way! You are so fabulous that he doesn�t even register in your mind while you�re making your plans with your daughter.

Don�t stress too much. It�ll take time to rewire your brain. Right now, you still care about him and you care what he thinks about you. It�s impossible for human beings with secure attachments, like you, to instantly turn off that feeling. Don�t feel bad about it. It�s a sign that you are whole and healthy. However, as a result, it will take a lot of effort to dismantle the bond you have with H. It has to be a deliberate and systematic process. A series of choices. It takes thirty days to form a habit, right? Or something like that. Imagine how much more confident, empowered, and peaceful you could feel in just thirty days!

Thank you Scout. I just keep coming back to re read this.

I�m struggling with a lot of sadness and grief and loneliness this week. I�m also struggling with the fact that I�m having so much trouble just letting go. It bothers me that it is this difficult for me. I�m trying to be nice to myself about it, but it does bother me.
I read a bunch of the book he was so eager for me to read, I decided that wasn�t a hill to die on for me. It was just divorce with kids 101. No real new info for me at all. Whatever, I think he wanted to feel empowered and like he wasn�t following my lead in regards to coparenting. If that helped him feel that way, no skin off my back.

Hs behavior is giving me emotional whiplash. He keeps saying things like � I�m so sorry for these hard times�. Just a non apology, no actual ownership or accountability whatsoever. Who even knows what that means, and furthermore why bother? If you want to apologize authentically for something then do it. If not, just don�t. All the more reason I look forward to feeling much more detached.

Hi Hope,

Just want to send some positive vibes your way and let you know I'm thinking about you. The "I'm sorry for these hard times" is infuriating, isn't it? It is such BS... like he wants some sort of reward for acknowledging this fact without actually taking any responsibility, or somehow can absolve himself by simply saying he feels badly things are "hard."

I know you are having a rough time and I totally get it. I did want to say, though, that I've been following you for awhile and it really seems like you have come a long ways. I feel like one step towards detaching is realizing you could be detached in a particular scenario, while still feeling the emotions it brings up. You are doing great.

And yay for him to actually be reading parenting books! (sarcastic emoji... plus actually it is nice that he is taking an interest here, I know all WHs don't). I think your attitude here is great too. Recognizing it is good he's wanting to be an involved parent and it is beneficial for him to feel empowered here rather than just following your lead. I like that you recognize all that and are like great, whatever.

You are really strong. You got this. Four is such a fun age. Focus on her.

Thank you May, for the kind and encouraging words. I have been following your thread from the beginning, I just don�t comment because you are doing so well and your situation has come so far, you def don�t need my advice

Four is an adorable and magical age. I am grateful for how much time I�ve gotten to spend with my daughter, especially lately. Like you, one of the most disturbing parts of divorcing for me is losing time with her. Everyone has different feelings and views on this. My opinion is that it�s just unnatural. A child should live in their home with both their parents. A child and their mother should not be forced to be apart for regular periods of time. That�s my opinion and firm belief in my heart. I hate that this is happening to her, and to me as a mother. It�s easier for some parents than for others and I don�t judge anyone, I�m just not cut out for it.

To be totally honest, I�m struggling a lot at the moment because I just really believed that my situation would end in reconciliation. I truly believed that in my heart, even through some of the hardest times. A lot of people I know thought so. Some people on this board thought so at one point or another. Even H admitted wavering on it at one point. I�m just having a lot of feelings about that, and a really difficult time accepting that I was wrong about that.
Because of that, I�m trying so hard to let go, and it�s proving very difficult for me.

Hope - As a fellow struggler, having a hard time letting go of the disappointment... I wonder if your best option for both R AND your emotional well being (not in order of priority!) is to completely let go.

Hi unchien

I believe that it is. I�m frustrated with the fact that I am struggling so hard doing it!!!

Hi Hope,

Yes, it is true that you have to completely let go for a multitude of reasons.

1. It allows you to place the focus on yourself, which means you are using your time wisely. If/when your H comes out the other side, you will be that far ahead and better prepared to support him. Or will you be better prepared for a new relationship in the future.

2. Having '0' expectations, removes you from the emotional roller coaster. You can stand outside the roller coaster as an observer or walk around the amusement park taking in more pleasant sights and smells. That's why detachment is so important.

3. It allows your H to move through the process without you interrupting it.

4. All the above, will relieve some of the anxiety.

Here's a thought, Hope... I feel like detachment is letting go of all expectations-- meaning, not just for reconciliation but for D. I don't necessarily think that in order to let go of your belief that this will end in R you have to hammer yourself over the head until you believe that you'll never get back together.

To me, the key is really understanding/accepting where you are RIGHT NOW, in the moment, which is-- as difficult and heartbreaking as it is to accept-- that your M as it was is no longer. That your H is simply not, at this moment, the H that you deserve. And regardless of what happens in the future, your primary responsibility in this incredibly difficult and confusing time is to be there for yourself and for your D4. If it is painful and upsetting to interact with him and get drawn into his circus... don't. Let the feelings flow over you and then out the door. And redirect all that amazing energy you have back into yourself and your D rather than wasting any on him.

You can count me in as one of the readers on this board who has thought and still thinks there is a chance for you two. But, right now... none of that matters. Whether it is meant to be or not between you two is not something you can control or need to worry about. For me, focusing on what I could control-- myself-- and letting go of what I can't-- his actions and thoughts-- has really helped me, though it is always a work in progress. In fact, typing this out to you reminds me that even though I'm frustrated by his unwillingness/unreadiness to talk about the A... his timeline is his and not for me to dictate. I can only control my own and if it ends up that his timeline stretches out beyond what is OK for me... then that is another decision I'll need to make, at that time. Understanding what it is that YOU need and supporting those parts of you, whether we call it GALing or whatever-- is the most important thing right now.

Another thing that helped (and continues to help) me is that letting go of everything when I'm with the kids. I had so much fear about S and D and what that would do to them, and I can relate so much to all that you are saying about being with your children. But I was carrying that fear with me when I was with them and it was was interfering with me just enjoying them. I worked on that quite a bit, to be really present with them, and I also think that helped me in the overall process of detaching from my fears and expectations around the relationship with my H.

Thank you so much May. Reading this felt like a comforting hug that I really needed.

Your point about expectations is a REALLY good one, and I somehow had not thought of it that way. It�s not just about letting go of expectations of R. It�s also letting go of my thoughts and expectations of life after D. You nailed it; I have been forcing myself to envision life as a divorced single mom, in an attempt to temper my hopes and to be realistic. But that isn�t serving me either.

And I too have caught myself worrying about being away from D4 while I�m with her. Then I get myself into a guilt/fear spiral and I�m not as present as I could be. Luckily I do catch myself doing it, but it�s comforting to have it mirrored back to me.

I so appreciate your post, it�s given me a lot to think about and it feels really helpful. Thank you.

Hope ~ Those times away from the kids are so hard for me too. I fear the worst. I feel guilty and at fault for putting them through D. But... I choose to believe that whether their parents are M'd or D'd is waaaaaay less important than showing them I love them and trying to be a great dad for them, imperfections and all. Your love for D4 will always be there no matter what your marital status is. The quality of your time with her is way more important than the quantity.

I think everything you describe -- difficulty being present, the fear and guilt -- it's all normal and natural given what you are going through. Hang in there.

Hi Hope,

One other thought for you... letting go of all expectations is important, and releasing your belief that you'll get back together doesn't mean that you have to believe you won't. For me, though, it was also helpful to explore and research what *might* be so that I wasn't so afraid. Reading my divorce book, studying the finances, learning the law all helped me to be less scared about what life might be like as a divorced single mom. It kind of evens the playing field so as you look to the future and you see these various paths, you aren't looking at it like "reconciliation = good, divorce = bad and scary" but more like both paths have positives and negatives and you simply are letting go of your expectations about which direction you're headed. I'm not sure if that makes sense... but I guess I'm just saying that whatever you can do to also release the fear around the D path might also help with releasing expectations more generally about what may or may not happen in the future.

Hang in there. xx M

I second may's advice wholeheartedly!

It was one of the best things I did for my emotional well-being.

Wow this advice from May, FANTASTIC!
You out it so simple but yet so strong! Should be mandatory for all newcomers.

Also wanted to second the thought on "exploring" your options.
IT really helped me to understand more about the D process and to scan the market for other living arrangements. I could bare the thought of not living in the house until I found something else that would actually be great for me and the girls.

Thanks all. I am definitely a person who soothes my anxiery with information, and I do feel like I�ve done the work in that regard. We do have a divorce that�s been filed and has moved very slowly along. In having to do my part of the paperwork I�ve read up on what I can and can�t expect and I�m aware of what my financial future looks like roughly. I was a stay at home mom for a few years before he left, and I�ve been trying to get myself financially independent since then (having been out of the workforce has proved a bigger hurdle than expected). We also live in arguably the most expensive area in the country, and I/ we are poor by the cost and standard of living here. It�s daunting, but I�m committed to getting myself into a stable position. I have yet to see any positives about being a single mom, but I remain open to hoping that could change.

Last night was upsetting and frustrating to say the least. When H came to pick up D4, she got really upset, she was crying hysterically and begging him to stay and play with her here. It was a really tough moment and it broke my heart. H has always struggled in the face of other emotions, especially those of the people he cares about. He was not handling it well, just kind of flip flopping and just crumbling under the pressure of the moment. Ultimately he asked me if it was on if they stayed and played here. This is the second time this has happened recently.

I felt it put me in a really $hitty position. I wanted to comfort and reassure daughter. I want to do what is best for her. I also do not feel it should fall to me to hold the line on this. H is the ultimately the one who has chosen this, and who doesn�t want us to all be together. It�s his choices that are hurting our daughter. I will of course always support and reassure my daughter through that. But I don�t want to do the hard emotional work for him.

After she was asleep he brought it up and asked what I thought about it. I gently told him the above, and that I felt he needs to figure out a way to have a plan to navigate those situations. He brought up the book he�d asked me to read,
and referenced something from it. Basically quoting the book, he said he thinks I haven�t let go so I must be making it harder for D4.
I really resent this. Its off base and so insulting as a parent. I put in a huge amount of energy to separate my feelings about al of this from D4s. I never mislead her or give her false hope or anything even close. I validate her feelings of sadness around wanting her family together.

It�s also extremely frustrating and disheartening to know that despite my efforts H can sense that I haven�t let go. It is absolutely all the more motivation to to do everything I can to let go. It felt awful to hear that from him. It felt arrogant on his part, as well as unnecessary to bring up. I guess I thought I was doing a better job at least at
faking it. UUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHHH.

Its discouraging and motivating at the same time.

Hope ~ What a crock.

Your H crumbling emotionally in front of D4, staying at your house, and playing with her is sending her the wrong message. It is incredibly confusing to a child.

He is going to keep finding evidence to blame you for things. He literally can't handle the transition, and then turns around and blames you for the difficulty.

I wonder if changing up your transitions might help D4. Could you drop her off at your H's residence instead?

Hope, i second U on this (and also what you've outlined yourself in your post)-- this entire situation is on him, his choice, he can't handle it and is blaming you, in a really gross way too. I'd be like, REALLY....??? (imbue that word with all the sarcasm possible). (And would be thinking, F you.)

So. Here's a thing I thought about as a good thing about being single again-- I think some of us were talking about it several months ago here-- once you get past your H, you get to fall in love again. All that gooey limerent nonsense my H was going on about for his AP... I would get to have that again with someone new. I also daydreamed about that made up new guy, perfect in every way... I mean I knew in my logical self that this was a fantasy, but in a fantasy everything gets to be exactly how you want it, right? And I focused on all the annoying traits of my H and all the things I would be able to do differently once he MO. And TBH I did have to have a bit of mourning for those changes I'd imagined when he decided not to MO after all. (Some of the house stuff we're still going to do. But the idea of everything being 100% up to ME and not having to compromise on anything felt pretty attractive.)

Finally-- read Yail's thread and especially her last few posts. She is loving life being single and such an inspiring example. I'm sure there are some things that you can point out about the value of not having to live with your H right now? I totally get the part about D4 and all the difficulties around single parenting, both for her and for you, and I'm not trying to minimize that at all. But it is what it is right now, and if you can look for the silver lining in the situation I think that can only be helpful.

Hang in there. Sorry your H is being a d*ck. ((HOPE))

Thanks U and M.

It really is a crock. And he is being d*ck. And it REALLY made me want to say F*** YOU to him.

I am so entirely fed up of being blamed for everything all the time. I mean, still? Even now? It�s insane.

Hello all. Just coming to do an update.

I�ve been off the board for awhile really focusing on myself and my daughter. I have come a long way in terms of detachment, and I can honestly say that for the first time. My feelings aren�t gone, nor are my wishes that things were different. I just feel stronger and more �ok� in general. I *think* I may be very close to finally securing a remote job. The money isn�t great but there are benefits and the flexibility of working from home which is super appealing to me, especially given the uncertainty of the coming school year (D4 is supposed to be starting kindergarten...) The 2 year mark since H moved out came and went in May. I found a journal entry is written at the time of BD: H had told me that he thought maybe in 2 years he�d be ready to try our marriage again. At the time that sounded like an insanely long time and I remember I actually scoffed at that comment and told him there was no chance I�d be around in 2 years. Here I am. I don�t know what to make of any of that, but it seems noteworthy.

H has been overly friendly and touchy with me over the last few months. Hugging me randomly, rubbing my back, etc. it�s been very weird. I�ve attributed it to the fact that I�ve pulled away and been more warmly detached than I was before. He also asked if he could take D4 to visit my mother and stepfather which is bizarre on multiple levels. My
mother and I have been estranged for years and he is well aware of that fact, and the fact that I�m extremely protective of D4 when it comes to my mother. I KNOW that he knows I would never agree to that, not to mention how strange it is that he wants to go up and see MY parents at this point?

Anyway, I just got hit with a bomb. Long story short, H asked me to keep D4 on his night this weekend because he was going out of state to pick up some things his recently deceased father left him. I said yes of course, and as the departure date approached this week, I knew something was off.

He was giving short one word answers about it and obviously avoiding talking about the trip. He�s been gone all weekend and hasn�t checked in or asked to speak to D4 once which is very unusual for him. I don�t even know when he is coming back.
I texted him this morning to find out if he�d back in time to see D4 on his usual day this week, and to ask about what his covid exposure is looking like. I feel it�s my right to know what level of exposure risk D4 and I are being put into. Long story short he admitted that he�d gone on the trip with his girlfriend. That was the first time he�s used that word about the women he�s dated while we�ve been separated. I�d already figured he was probably with another woman based on his behavior, so I wasn�t shocked, but that term hurt. Turns out he never made it to the city he was meant to be going to mourn his father. He said he planned to but that �it didn�t work out�. Sickening.

I�d already decided to do my best to stick with my detachment in the face of this. I responded that I already figured that but thanks for finally being honest about at least part of this. Then he basically tried to preemptively stonewall me by saying that we need to talk when he�s back on Tuesday. I asked that he just text me whatever it is he feels we need to talk about it, because it�s more productive for me to process on my own before we try to talk. He refused and said �you can handle waiting�. It�s crazy how quickly he almost gets punitive with me when he knows he�s being a sh**, as I�d it�s me that�s done something wrong.

I�m a bit stunned I think, but my suspicions were already there and I already cried a lot about it on Saturday, so I feel a bit numb. What I really want is to be so well emotionally and mentally prepared for this talk that we apparently need to have that I will be able to appear as unbothered as possible. For my own empowerment, I want to handle this in the exact opposite way than what he�s likely expecting, so he has only his own feelings to sit with. I want to react with the closest I can get to loving(ish) detachment as possible.
The nice thing is that it won�t have to be completely faked, though it will definitely take some fake it til I make it. I will try to make sure I�m as calm and centered as I can be beforehand. I�m thinking my best bet to control my emotions during this talk will be to not say anything. I�ll actively listen, then tell him I need to think about what he�s saying and say goodnight.
How does that sound? This moment feels really really important to me. I want to feel empowered and strong. And I do not want H thinking for a second that this hurts me as much as it does. I want to pull off this particular scenarios version of �you want to go? I�ll pack your bags�. I disliked at that early on and for a long time and I regret that. I�d like to see if I can cultivate that for myself now, and show us both that I�m no longer who he thinks I am.

As always, I�m grateful to have this place to come and vent this out, and I welcome any and all thoughts, advice, comments, etc.

Hi Hope, I just wanted to let you know I read your update. I'm sorry for the turn and new lies. ((Hugs))

Hi Hope

I am sorry for all that you are going through but I am glad that despite it you feel that you are "OK". I haven't been on the boards much lately either. I am not sure why. Maybe I just didn't have anything to write. But strangely, I came back here two days ago and your update is pretty much a mirror of my update.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I�d already decided to do my best to stick with my detachment in the face of this.

Good. It takes strength, but honestly, the alternative is begging or screaming.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I responded that I already figured that but thanks for finally being honest about at least part of this. Then he basically tried to preemptively stonewall me by saying that we need to talk when he�s back on Tuesday. I asked that he just text me whatever it is he feels we need to talk about it, because it�s more productive for me to process on my own before we try to talk. He refused and said �you can handle waiting�. It�s crazy how quickly he almost gets punitive with me when he knows he�s being a sh**, as I�d it�s me that�s done something wrong.

When you said "I already figured that" what were your intentions? I only ask because it sounds a little passive aggressive. Like an accusation "I knew you were lying all along.". It doesn't matter really - it is just an observation.

I am not sure why he is so insistent on talking about it face to face. Do you think it because he wants to discuss the implications on your daughter? If he is anything like my H, it would be better to have this meeting in public as you say, when he is challenged, he becomes punitive. Go into the session knowing what him seeing someone means for you and your daughter. Stand your ground and if he gets angry then just say I won't be spoken to this way. We can discuss again when you are calmer.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I�m a bit stunned I think, but my suspicions were already there and I already cried a lot about it on Saturday, so I feel a bit numb.

No matter how much we suspect (and I suspected a lot) the realisation that our suspicions are true still hits us. I cried when he told me a week ago, and I have been crying on and off ever since. If you read my update though, I am not crying because he is seeing someone else (the intense grief I would have felt two years ago) but quieter. The kind of crying you might do at a funeral for someone you once loved - no remorse/regret, just a goodbye. So, I guess, I am saying, this is natural. Allow yourself to grieve.

Hope, I can only tell you what I keep telling myself. You have had two years to become comfortable with being on your own. To work on rebuilding your life. This doesn't change any of that. On the contrary, it removes some of the uncertainty you've been feeling and it will allow you to let go. And this pain you feel, this sadness, it will pass. Don't focus on him. Focus on you. What does this 'truth' mean for you?. How can you use it to help you heal?.

Right now that devil that tells me I will be alone where he is not whispers constantly in my ear. It is up to me and me only to push that voice away.

Hi FS,

I know. I saw your update and my stomach dropped because at that point I knew my suspicions about this trip were right and I was taken aback by the similarity of your update. I�m sorry that you find yourself here too. You sound strong!

The main difference I see in our two sitches is the current state of the relationship between us and our Hs. I think mine tends to mirror me to an extent, and then to lean in and be extra warm and extra friendly and close seeming when he feels me pull away, or when he is feeling guilty. It�s been very confusing for me this entire time, but we know what they say around here about what it means (or rather does not mean) if the LBS feels confused...

Originally Posted by FlySolo

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Yes, when I said this it was to say I already knew that. My intention (while not pure of heart) wasn�t so much to point out that he was obviously lying, but to make it clear that he isn�t laying on some big reveal to me that he seems to think he is. I don�t have a good reason for it, but it felt good.

I got a bit more out of him, he wants to talk to me in person about how this relates to D4. We�ve had conversations in the past about how we would approach introducing hypothetical significant others. I have very strong feelings about this and the way it should be handled. He thinks waiting 6 months to see if the relationship gets serious is enough time. (I actually don�t agree and think it�s in the best interest of children to wait a year, because it�s often the turning point of relationships). He texted to tell me that he likes the person he�s seeing and that he�d like this to be the start of the 6 month waiting period.

I�m conflicted here and I need some advice; I�m inclined to want to fight this and push for longer because that is truly what I believe is right. H and I both grew up with single parents and were dragged through the many relationships of our parents along the way. I refuse to let that happen to my daughter.
On the other hand, I�m also inclined to just f***ing let go and say �ok, you�ve got it, consider this notification of the waiting period starting. Have a great day�

It�s tough because this is one of of my major values around parenting that I feel extremely strongly about. Maybe to the point that I�m being irrational about it? I honestly don�t know.
That combined with the fact that I really do want to let go, let him go and not stand in his way even a tiny bit, makes this a tough choice for me. Thoughts?

Hey Hope

How old are your kids? Sorry - I know you mentioned them earlier on but I�ve forgotten.

I thought the same when my H told me. He actually said �I�m seeing someone and I want to tell the girls about her. Not introduce them, but just let them know so they get use to the idea�. We didn�t discuss timelines or anything like that, he didn�t give me a chance tbh. When I thought about it I decided why fight the tides. At least yours had enough respect to give you the six months notice - not just sneak around and continue lying and then tell you out of the blue.

Hope - there is a difference between wanting someone to be a part of your family life and parading a random string of women through your children�s lives. If your H is willing to wait six months (and he respected you enough to let you know) then that is something. I know it�s tough. I know you still hold out hope of a reconciliation but the best thing to do is sit back and let it play out. . I grew up in Australia and if there�s one thing we learn it�s when caught in riptide, don�t fight it. Ahern you come up for air, you will be a long way from where you started, but you will be ok. continue the path you were on. This changes nothing. It only makes it more transparent.

I don�t know how long my H has been seeing this woman but I trust that he wouldn�t have come to the decision lightly. I have no doubt that there has been a string of women since we broke up. I have no doubt that he lied and lied and lied. But I know he loves his kids. Ask yourself would your H do something to hurt his kids?

Hope ~ Sorry to hear about the latest development.

You can't control what he decides to do, like others have pointed out.

It sounds like you are seeing this in black-or-white. Either you get your way (12 months), or he gets his way (6 months). Perhaps you can say:

"I strongly believe 12 months is more appropriate for reasons XYZ. I also understand you think 6 months is adequate. I respect we have differences, and respect that you are considering D4's emotional well-being in making your decision."

Then you've asserted your opinion, you've released control, and you've nodded to the fact your H is considering D4 (rather than parading women within the 1st week as many people do).

In my situation, I believe my kids are being introduced to a BF without any discussion with me. Some people have it even worse than that.

Everything we learn in DB applies to co-parenting as well.

My X (in the past 12 months):

- left me to be with OW
- introduced her to S2
- brings her to my house for child handovers
- moved her into his house
- has her involved with every visitation

As U mentioned - it could be much worse. Your H is showing you some respect (even though he is being insensitive).

I think you can stick to canned responses if you feel your emotions might get out of control.

- I am not comfortable with that
- I respectfully disagree with you
- I understand your point of view but I don't feel the same way
- My only concern is D4's emotional wellbeing

At the end of the day, all you can do is make your point and the let the chips fall. You have no ethical, moral or legal recourse to prevent him from introducing his GF to your daughter.

Avoid anything that implies his relationship isn't serious, that you don't trust his judgement, or that he doesn't have D4's best interests at heart.

This is, by far, the worst part of our situations, but unfortunately it's just another lesson in letting go of control.

Thanks everyone.

U and Scout, I completely 100 percent realize that a lot of people here have had a lot worse in terms of their WAS introducing other people to their children. I really do, and every time I read one of those situations, a little bit of me breaks. That would break me. I have so much old trauma from going through that as a child that the idea of it makes me completely sick. May22 has echoed my feelings on it. Just the thought of another woman feeling or being important in the life of my daughter fills me with RAGE. I�m just being honest. It is truly my worst possible nightmare. So yes, I�m grateful that at least H agrees to that on paper, but he�s proven himself to be a habitual liar so I will have to white knuckle it.
He has now told me that he just met this person and feels a very powerful connection and would like to be able to build a future with her and is now in a rush to finalize our custody agreement become of it. It makes me completely sick. I do hope that it starts strong and fizzles out, if for no other reason than so my daughter doesn�t ever meet her . I�ll tell him I�ll consider this his six month notice and be done with it. I already told him I see no reason for an in person talk and that I�ll pass on that.

I�m extremely hurt and I�m very sad, but mostly I�m furious. He lied to me over and over and over. And while he acknowledges that, he has yet to apologize for it or express any remorse. It�s infuriating. It�s also one of my major trigger points (the lack of acknowledgment or apology for wrong doing) so I�m focused on dealing with that on my own so as to empower myself by not losing my cool.

It�s also fu**ing infuriating that in the last few weeks, presumable since he started this relationship, he has been more touchy and affectionate with me than he has in a long time. What the F***k is that? It�s all so twisted. All my natural inclinations are to fight against this. But thank you FS for your words. They resonate with me. I will not fight against this. I will sit back and let what will be, be.

I�m considering a scorched earth thing here. Not mean or cold, but setting firmer boundaries (asking for my house key back, asking him to no longer contact and visit my parents at this point, maybe reminding him that we aren�t friends, things like that).
But I so worry that doesn�t flow with my continued faking til I make it of detachment. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I�m considering a scorched earth thing here. Not mean or cold, but setting firmer boundaries (asking for my house key back, asking him to no longer contact and visit my parents at this point, maybe reminding him that we aren�t friends, things like that).
But I so worry that doesn�t flow with my continued faking til I make it of detachment. Thoughts?

Asking for house key back - 100%. Has your divorce been finalised yet?

Asking him not to contact parents - don't bother, he'll do it regardless of your request if he wants.

Reminding him you aren't friends - don't bother, actions speak louder than words.

I'm trying to understand what you mean about the above actions not jiving with your air of detachment. Are you afraid he'll see the implementation of these boundaries as a reaction to his news? Isn't the point of detachment to live your life and not care what he thinks? You've got to climb out of the swirling emotional vortex of "will he? won't he? I did this and then he did that" and free yourself.

Hope, here's a 2x4 and it's meant with love - it really seems your H has moved on. It's been two years. This isn't an OW or an affair, it's just his new partner. It's horrible to accept, I know, whether you're still harbouring thoughts of reconciliation or not. It's not what you envisioned for yourself or your daughter. None of us ever got married or started a family thinking that this might happen. It's awful! But your healing can't start without acceptance.

Your H still has such a hold on your emotions after two years. He makes you feel extremely hurt, very sad, f**king infuriated. He's acting true to character - by your own admission, he's a habitual liar. Yet you continuously expect him to do the right thing, tell the truth, act honourably, and then you spin out of control emotionally when he doesn't. When someone shows you who they are, believe them!

I have seen you write so many times about your H acting warmly towards you and touching you when he comes around. You always say you don't react to it or put any stock in it, but isn't it weird? It seems like you're looking for reassurance that this means something. The excitement and hope in these words springs off the screen. I empathise with this feeling so much, but please don't let it blind you to what is actually happening.

Another 2x4 with sincere best intentions - when a man is in love with a woman, he will move heaven and earth to be with her. You're seeing it in your H's behaviour towards this new woman, right? Who knows if it will fizzle out, but you can't bank on it. If you expect the worst, you can't be disappointed. We didn't cause our husbands to cheat and leave us. If we were that powerful, we'd be able to make them come back. And the truth is - we can't.

You don't want to be someone's second, third, fourth or fifth choice. You don't want to be stuck here in another two years. Free yourself.

Thanks Scout. I can probably use the 2X4s.

Yes you�re right, I was questioning my �scorched earth � approach because I don�t like the idea of him thinking it�s a reaction to his news. And yes, I see your point that that is not actual detachment. If I were detached I wouldn�t care what he thought about my actions at all. So I guess I need to reconcile that with the pride I have and dignity I want to try to maintain. I think the balance there might be to take my key back and make my boundaries clear in a calm manner.
And no, my divorce is not final yet.

I definitely see what you mean about my mentioning the way he treats me and shows affection when he�s around. It has fed my hope on many occasions. In this particular case I just find it truly bizarre given what has actually been going on. It doesn�t make me think he is sending me signals, it makes me think he is messing with me emotionally.
I think that he probably wants me pining for him despite the fact that he has moved on. He made several patronizing remarks to me today that made me feel that way. �I hope you�ll still be able to have a nice day today� and �I want to start to prepare you for things that will be hard for you�. It�s insulting and it�s always seemed like he likes picturing me crying over him. Anyway, I have done otherwise in the past, but this time I mentioned the affection he�s shown me lately because I think it�s just messed up.

I don�t want to be feeling like this and I don�t like the part of me that is still attached to this man. I am definitely struggling to get where I want to be, but I am trying really hard to get there.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I think that he probably wants me pining for him despite the fact that he has moved on. He made several patronizing remarks to me today that made me feel that way. �I hope you�ll still be able to have a nice day today� and �I want to start to prepare you for things that will be hard for you�. It�s insulting and it�s always seemed like he likes picturing me crying over him.

Hope, USE THIS! That f-you feeling you get when he says crap like that? Use it to fuel your attitude towards him. It may be a fake-it-til-you-make-it type of situation, but reading that infuriated me and I soooooooo want to picture you looking at him all cool and calm and gorgeous with one eyebrow raised, like PLEASE. GTF over yourself, dude.

On the child and OW thing... I feel you so much. It scares me now crazy I feel even thinking about it. I totally get exactly how you feel. The one thing I would say is, if you haven't already, maybe read some of Scout's posts from a month or so ago, when her S started chirping about the OW changing his diapers and such. I was overwhelmed just reading it but was brought back to earth by the amazing way that Scout handled it. If I can take my emotions out of it, another kind and loving adult in your child's life isn't a bad thing (assuming the OW is these things). And you will never, ever be replaced as her mom. Never.

HUGS.

I might be able to offer some perspective on the 'affection'. This is just my experience so take or leave ...

In the first year post BD, even though I was an 'alien' and the architect of all his misery my H use to do 'nice' things for me. He bought me a valentines present (a chocolate rose) that he put under my pillow, he would clean my car and he even put it in to be serviced, he spent nearly �500 on my birthday present (and then sent me text after text asking me if I liked it), I would come home and things would be done (lawn mowed, trees cut back) and he would offer to give me lifts, he got me a mothers day present and gave the kids money to take me to lunch. Whilst he was either silent or angry in person, his messages would be friendly "Hi! how are the kids?" or "I saw blah and thought it might be nice for D10". This is now long gone. His messages are abrupt and he is a lot more easily triggered. In retrospect, and with some understanding of what was happening in the background (in his life) I now know that this had nothing to do with me. He was trying to keep me in my place. Sitting waiting, not because he wanted me back, but because he wanted the option to come back.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

No, I don't think he wants you pining for him. I think he just wants you to stay put. It's a property thing. The patronizing remarks are to make you feel of less worth, like you can't handle what's going on because you're weak. Again, it's a way of keeping you in your place.

Hope, I don't think your H is a bad guy. I think he is just trying to find his way and do what he thinks will make him happy. Selfish yes, insensitive definitely. But he is trying to do what he feels will hurt you the least. What he doesn't know is that everything is going to hurt you right now.

Ask yourself this ... would you prefer he didn't tell you?

Thanks FS

NO, I would definitely always prefer to know the truth, no latter how hurtful. He didn�t exactly tell me, his lies just got so transparent that there was nothing left to do but call him on it and he finally admitted to it. And I am glad I know, 100 %.

Originally Posted by may22

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Thanks May. ME. TOO. That is definitely the facial expression I had when I read those texts. I�ll have to see him this evening for pick up/drop off of D4 and if he gives me any more of that crap, he�ll see it for himself.

I do not like the idea of him trying to keep me in my place. And I do not like the idea of him using me to absolve himself of guilt. Not one bit.

Originally Posted by scout12

When someone shows you who they are, believe them!

This is such a great quote. Sometimes when I get frustrated with people, I ask myself, "Why did I expect anything differently?"

Hope, one thing I did (mistakenly) was suppress my anger because I thought I needed to do so to detach. I think many of us here do this. Once I connected with the healthy part of my anger, it really accelerated the detachment process for me. Whereas before I felt an emotional swell from upsetting texts or interactions, I now mostly feel indifferent or mildly annoyed. My kids are hanging around a shady character, I've voiced my opinion, and other than that there is nothing I can do.

I'm also not suggesting you should be happy with his 6 month plan, nor am I saying anyone has it worse. My point was mostly try to look at both sides of the coin. Yes, he's patronizing and smug and seems to know you are still attached and uses that to his own advantage. At the same time, he does not sound like a soulless hedonist and he at least has some awareness of D4's sensitivity to the situation. Personally, I agree with you that 6 months is too soon.

Re: the touching stuff, if it bothers you, please set a boundary.

Thanks U!

I totally agree with that quote and have advised myself and many friends on it many times. I�ve often looked back to a time very early in my relationship with H where I caught him in a (completely unnecessary) lie and called him on it. His reaction was to throw an actual tantrum where he cried a whole bunch and then was angry at me for being angry at him. That was the first of many times, and he still does that to this day (not the crying, but definitely the gaslighting).
Admittedly it was one of the main reasons that I was desperately unhappy with our relationship.
I guess I did think that ALL that aside that the one thing that would be kept sacred that he wouldn�t ever lie about would be things related to our daughter. Unfortunately he proved that to be untrue as well.

I would like to set a boundary on the touching. For my own sake and to be true to myself, I don�t want to be nasty about it. I�m just not sure how to set that particular one. Any suggestions?

If you are like me, you struggle to set boundaries because the very act of setting the boundary feels nasty or mean-spirited.

It's not. Being assertive in a respectful way to the other party is not nasty.

I'm not sure what would work for you (and your H). Maybe some non-verbal body language. Maybe a simple and calmly stated "I would like if you stopped doing XYZ. Thanks!" (smile)

Also if you are like me, you may over-think things ahead of time and get your emotions stirred up, partly to give yourself the courage to stand up for yourself. Then you might come across as highly emotional, which is exactly what you are trying to avoid.

So... just think, no big deal. He may take it poorly, who cares? You'd like him to stop touching, just tell him simply and matter-of-factly. Neutral emotion. You got this!

D4�s birthday is coming up. I usually throw her a big party with all her friends, but we clearly won�t be doing that this year, so I�ve been planning for a quarantine party at home with extra special touches.

For at least the past 6 months D4 has been obsessing about it and about whether her daddy will be there. It has clearly been a huge source of anxiety for her. For months she�s been asking if he will come to her birthday even if it�s on a day where she doesn�t usually see him. All along, H and I both assured her over and over that of course he would be there.

I did always imagine that no matter what, we would suck it up and come together for D4�s birthday. Right now, I am struggling with the idea of doing this together. Being around him sounds horrible. I can not break this promise to D4. It would absolutely devastate her and it would break her trust in me. She�s very big into promise keeping, especially lately.

I also don�t like the message that having a �family� party sends to H at the moment. But as I write this, I suppose detachment would mean that I would do what is good for D4 regardless and not think about what it makes H think.
I want to address this with him in the most business like way possible. How�s this?:

I�m planning D4�s party and as you know it�s very important to her that we celebrate together, so for her sake I still think that�s best. I�m planning and taking care of XYZ, please let me know if you have ideas or anything you�d like to contribute or incorporate.

How�s that?

Hope ~

I have one minor suggested edit:

~~~

I�m planning D4�s party and as you know it�s very important to her that we celebrate together. ,so for her sake I still think that�s best. Please let me know if you would like to join us. I�m planning and taking care of XYZ, please let me know if you have ideas or anything you�d like to contribute or incorporate.

~~~

Standard co-parenting advice is to keep it business-like (read: detachment) and always focus on the needs of the children first.

Your response is business like, and it focuses on D4's needs (wanting a family party). Perfect. You can always change how you do these family things in the future.

Thanks U!

I guess I thought the �for her sake I think it�s best� was good because I wanted to clarify that I do not want to do this (I don�t) and that it�s only for D4. But I do see that sends the message of attachment because it relates to my feelings and his recent revelations.

Thanks for the help!

Hope,

Actually I have no issue with "for her sake I think it's best" from a detachment perspective. The reason I don't like "for her sake I think it's best" is that the other party is likely to hear "I know what's best for D4".

You already stated in the previous sentence "as you know it's very important to her" -- that places the focus on D4's needs and not your opinions about what is best for her. Your H can choose to honor D4's wishes or not.

I think it depends if you want him as a co-host or a guest.

If co-host, you could say �I�m planning D4�s party. She would love it if you were there to celebrate with her. If there�s anything special you�d like to contribute I�d be happy to incorporate your ideas.�

If guest, you could just say �D4�s birthday party is on x date at x time. She would love it if you were there to celebrate with her. The RSVP date is x.�

I�d avoid anything that asks him to do something ie. please let me know xyz. Just let him know what you doing and that he�s welcome to contribute. That way, what you do isn�t dependent on his decisions.

Thanks U and Scout. That all makes sense.

The only reason I�m posing it this way is that not too long ago he had texted me to see if I was planning something and made it clear that he wants to contribute and participate. Otherwise I would definitely just invite him as a guest.

Because SIP is still in effect for the most part here, it�s very likely to be just 3 of us which does not sound fun. But D4 will be extremely happy and that all that matters for the day. I�ll be sure to have plenty of celebratory drinks on hand for myself

You are a strong woman and a wonderful mother for making that sacrifice for your daughter.

Scout, thank you so much for those kind words. I can�t tell you how much it means to hear that right now.

Hope,

Just getting caught up. He said "girlfriend" to you, ugh. I can see how that is an extra gut punch in all this. Two years is a good amount of time. It would be nice if the D could be finalized before he started dating and wanting to introduce D4 to girlfriends, but perhaps there is no point in thinking about that. I do agree that him wanting to consult you about when he introduces her to them is a good sign. I think if I had ended up D, and were dating, I would not do the same. I would make my own judgement about who I introduced my kids to and when. I would also find it awkward to have to give H my blessing for him to do the same. In our sitch, OW had been a good friend of mine (and our kids were all friends) so I told him right off the bat to never bring the kids around her or to think I would ever be okay with the kids figuring out what was going on. I also knew I couldn't control it if he did. Fortunately he didn't.

If I recall I had a lot of hope for you two Ring early in your sitch. I am sorry that I was wrong about that. Maybe I misunderstood his kindness and affection to mean he was conflicted on his feelings for you? Maybe I wanted to see that because that is what I saw in my own sitch. I think the others have explained it far better. I don't like that he does that at all now. It's weird. He should not pity you in that way also. Ew. No. And I don't like that he feels so comfortable to come into your space, try and be friendly and to be affectionate. I am not sure you have to announce he needs to stop tho. Maybe you just need to create stronger boundaries with your time and body language so he sees that is not going to be tolerated. Can you stop spending time altogether? Just brief hand-offs with D4?

I have 3 Ds. When H and I were separated, my youngest D turned 5. I didn't invite him to her party. I told him that I would not be doing things together as a family and that he could plan his own celebration with his own family for her. Was that the best move? I don't know. I just refused to play nice with him given all that he had done. My kids saw us both often, but not together. I think that is okay too. If you don't want to pretend to be a family, you don't have to do that. Even if D4 is sad, or puts up resistance, she will recover and this is her reality now. Sometimes we try and protect our children, but they are far more resilient than we give them credit for. She can be disappointed, or hurt, or angry-- and she is allowed that. You can still both love her and can love her in your own ways. .... I think this could also help you move on. You deserve that now.

Blu

Hi Blu,

It�s so nice to hear from you. The word girlfriend was a definite gut punch. I also think it�s complete BS because they just met, but that doesn�t matter. He views her and their relationship that way, so there it is.

I know you had hope for H and I to reconcile at some point. Several people here did, and all my closest friends did too. It wasn�t just the kindness and the affection, I don�t think, though that played a part (including up to literally a week ago). It was also several conversations he initiated in which he wavered, times he told me straight out he could see that things could be good again, etc.

Honestly? I believe that he did feel that way. Honestly? I believe that he still does. But I also now believe (as I long suspected and hoped wasn�t the case) that he is one of the weakest kind. The kind who can see there is a chance to be a happy family again, and even partly wants to make that happen, but doesn�t have the guts to take the leap. I honestly think that the way he�s been over the last few months with the affection and the texting and just the way he was looking at me, was because he felt it, things building to something good between us slowly. And I think it scared the sh!t out of him, so he ran the other way and bolstered himself safely behind the wall of a new relationship.

Obviously I could be wrong. And obviously it doesn�t actually matter. But I do believe that, and that�s what makes this so hard to let go of. But I�m getting there. Yes it�s very slow for me. But the pace has picked up over the last few months, and my anger and disgust at his latest crap has definitely helped the push. But oh man, it is excruciating. I think I�m painfully intuitively aware of what�s going on, and it just makes it harder. Again, could be wrong. Doesn�t matter.

It�s all business from me toward him at this point. He is partially mirroring it, and partially awkwardly trying to bring it back to us chatting and joking, and the GD touching. I�m silently setting my boundaries. He tries to chat with me and I just say uh huh and give him an �ok you can go now� look. Sunday he came to drop off D4 after their Father�s Day together and he literally came in, kicked off his shoes, PUT HIS FEET UP ON MY COFFEE TABLE AND STARTED LOOKING AT HIS PHONE. Commenting on how cute the pics from the day were, but not actually showing them to me. I felt completely certain he was trying to provoke me, and I literally ignored it all until he got the point and left. After I put D4 to bed I screamed into a pillow. HOW. DARE. HE.
Yesterday he texted me that he got a bonus at work and was transferring me $1000 for D4s birthday �or whatever�. I don�t even know. He is so messed up. Unfortunately I�ve been unemployed and struggling financially since SIP started and would be a fool to turn down extra money, as good as it would have felt to do so. I just said �that�s very helpful, thank you� and left it alone.

I don�t think he likes that I�m not freaking out about his revelations and lies. I think it upsets his narrative and takes me out of my place in his mind. Maybe I�m wrong. I look forward to seeing less of him in the near future.

Hi Hope ~

Boundary idea: Don't let him into your house during drop-offs/pick-ups. He certainly shouldn't be kicking his feet up like he lives there. I did this with my W non-verbally (I stand at the front door during drop-offs).

Regarding the bonus, is it possible you are entitled to more than what he gave you?

I think anger helps a lot to get to the business mindset. It's not that easy to just flip a switch, hang in there.

Oh wow it hadn�t even occurred to me that I may be entitled to more of his bonus. Clearly I need to actively switch my mindset.

I assume I�m not, as he received it long after our date of separation? I know no idea if this is correct though...

(((HOPE)))

That is so lame of him to come in and put his feet on your table. OMG. I like Unchien's suggestion of using your body to deter him from coming into your house.

Originally Posted by HopeCA

I know you had hope for H and I to reconcile at some point. Several people here did, and all my closest friends did too. It wasn�t just the kindness and the affection, I don�t think, though that played a part (including up to literally a week ago). It was also several conversations he initiated in which he wavered, times he told me straight out he could see that things could be good again, etc.

Honestly? I believe that he did feel that way. Honestly? I believe that he still does. But I also now believe (as I long suspected and hoped wasn�t the case) that he is one of the weakest kind. The kind who can see there is a chance to be a happy family again, and even partly wants to make that happen, but doesn�t have the guts to take the leap. I honestly think that the way he�s been over the last few months with the affection and the texting and just the way he was looking at me, was because he felt it, things building to something good between us slowly. And I think it scared the sh!t out of him, so he ran the other way and bolstered himself safely behind the wall of a new relationship.

I am sitting in this same space, within a different context, and with actually less positive reasons for H scaring himself away--I think best case scenario in my case, it was more starting to view the work of piecing and the facing the enormity of what he'd done that was scaring him along with FOMO with AP, not any real romantic feelings towards me. And that is my generous interpretation of what happened, not the lying cheating manipulative coward who is unable to face the consequences of his own choices and so is desperately trying to figure out how to get what he wants that he doesn't really care who he hurts in the process even while he pays lip service around that. (For me, I think it is probably healthier for me to embrace scenario two than one.)

But all that being said... when you say it doesn't matter... it really doesn't. Whether he ran because he is scared or ran because he didn't see what you think he saw or because he's a weak and cowardly man who can't face what he's done. The fact remains that he did run. I think that is the hardest thing to do, especially because we are programmed to always be looking for the best in people, especially our spouses and the father of our children. That we see the positives and remember all the good parts and want so badly to be able to give our children what they want and deserve.

If he can't stand up and be that person, then there is no point to waiting around for it to happen. He isn't able to give you what YOU need and deserve right now. And from all I've read, it is really important for a daughter of a single mom to see her mom tall and proud and happy, and you need to give THAT to her more than she needs a birthday with both of you together. I've also read that children of Ded parents often fantasize for years about their parents getting back together, and I wonder if having that pseudo-family time might draw that out more. So to the extent it doesn't help you in your quest to heal and move on and show your daughter a strong, kick-a$$ mom, even if it is positive for your D in the short-term to see you two together, keep your priorities in mind. It's like giving them that candy that feels good now but is not good for them in the long run.

Finally... if it helps... remember that sacred promise he broke and is continuing to break to D4 that we both feel? Use your anger around that to fuel your letting go. I know when we get to that place, that is my white line boundary that when crossed will give me a lot of strength. Maybe sitting with that-- because I know you and I feel similarly about this-- can help you?

Hope ~

Do the last 2 letters of your user name indicate your state of residence?

If so, look up Smith-Ostler. You mentioned you were having some financial hardship and I don't know if you have officially established support with your H. Normally, if he received a bonus, you would be entitled to some % of that bonus based on a complicated guideline calculator that spits out the number.

I didn't actually retain a lawyer for 8 months in my situation. But at the very beginning, I engaged in free consults and educated myself on the process, both with custody and finances. I was hoping not to have to use that knowledge, but it made me feel so much better knowing that, if things went that way, I knew what to expect.

Hi all,

I�m still here reading from time to time, but not posting at this time. But I would like some advice.

A few months ago �H� took up the habit of periodically texting D5 directly, on my phone obviously. For example �Good morning [D5]! I hope you have a great day!� or similar. It has always annoyed me and I�ve sometimes ignored it, sometimes let D5 dictate a response, sometimes replies to him that I�d relayed his message.

Interestingly, after his revelation about dating someone new, it stopped for a couple of weeks which was fine by me.

Now he�s started doing it again. Texting D5, sometimes adding in a picture of her or including a message to me.

What I actually want to do is ignore it. I am trying to have as little contact with him as possible. The only thing stopping me is that I would not like it if he ignored my texts re D5 when she was with him.
The difference is, I wouldn�t do this weird indirect thing he is doing. I�ve at times asked him to say goodnight to her for me, or something similarly direct.

It feels like one of those things where if I just ignore it it could cause an issue. Asking him to stop doing it in this manner feels like it would come out petty and very attached sounding, and I do not wish to give him that satisfaction. (for the record, I do not believe my feelings around this are petty, I just think it would come across that way if I communicate it).

Any advice?

Hope ~

Idea:

H text: Good morning [D5]! I hope you have a great day!

You text: I will let D5 know you said good morning and have a great day.

??

Hi unchien, yeah I�ve done that a few times. The whole thing still annoys me, but I guess that might be the best compromise solution.

H text: Good morning [D5]! I hope you have a great day!

You text: Wrong number. This is Hope. But I'm having a great day, thanks!

Haha!

You nailed it, unchien. THAT is how I feel about it.

I'm no expert in reconciliation, just a student of detachment. Never reply. Eventually, they stop texting more than once or twice a month. And never take their phone call. They can leave a message if it's actually important. It never is. If he's adding in pictures of his new friend, that's just rude. Ignore rude people. You're worth more than that. Eventually, he will figure that out. Best to help him along the path faster though.

-Spiral

Hi Hope

It's been a while since I checked in and I am so sorry that things have taken this turn.

I know how you feel about the messages. Perhaps you could arrange for him to call at the same time everyday? Explain that you are not trying to stop him from speaking to your daughter, just that you are not a messaging service.

Re the photos. Yes, this is poor form on his part. Or, as Jennifer Anniston once said, "he is missing a sensitivity chip". State your boundaries "Sending me photos of your new GF is insensitive and I will not be passing them on to our daughter. She can look at them when she is with you".

Thanks spiral and FS

I need to clarify, he includes pictures of my D5 with his messages! NOT his GF!!

You can bet all you�ve got that if he sent me a pic of his GF I would let him have it with no fear. Omg that would be horrible!

D5 has not met this person and doesn�t know she exists so far. So I�m good there for now.

He is missing a sensitivity chip, but he�s not that bad, thank god!!

Originally Posted by HopeCA

Haha!

You nailed it, unchien. THAT is how I feel about it.

I was serious with my response proposal. Have some fun with it. You might enjoy communicating this way (showing him how you will handle things) rather than trying to have heart-felt conversations with your thick-skulled H.

It�s funny you choked back in to say that, U.

I first assumed you were joking, but then I thought, maybe I will actually say that.
It�s true to how I actually feel, and that is what the real me who isn�t trying to be so CAREFUL would actually say. That�s my personality.
I like it!

Hi Hope,

I know it has been a few days... did you end up saying anything?

This is something I've thought about as my H and I often do text with the kids when we're apart. I think I'd get them a device of their own if we Sed. My Ds are older, but I just set up D10 with her own email account which she can access on my iPad (since they've been doing distance learning she has been on it a lot) and I have to say i loooooooove emailing with her. I guess if I were you I'd think carefully about it in case you want to reach out to her when she's with your H. If not, then I would tell him to knock it off either seriously or in a fun way as U suggests.

Hope you are doing OK!! Thinking of you.

xoxo May

Hi May,

Thanks for checking in. I haven�t said anything, but have just been mulling it over for if/when it happens again.
I thought about it and did decide that I don�t want to stir anything up. The simplest way to respond so as to not shoot myself in the foot in terms of communication with my daughter while she is with him is to go with the �I�ll let her know you said xyz� route.

I realized when I thought about it more that this is one of the methods that he has utilized in the past to hook me back in and keep me attached. He�d send a message to our daughter, she/I/we would respond, then he�d segue it into some banter. This solution does not open the door for that, so I think it works well for me.

That didn�t take long. This morning I got a text with a new proposal for a custody schedule. This is super frustrating, as we had a whole round of that last week that went pretty well, and that I left thinking that we had basically come to an agreement. Now he�s coming back with something different. This happens each time we discuss it; I leave the conversation feeling like we�ve come to an agreement and then the next Monday he comes back with something new. He asked if we could discuss this tomorrow night. I replied yes, but after thinking about it, I don�t think a face to face discussion about this is needed or a good idea. This topic is the hardest, most emotionally difficult and triggering part of all of this for me. I don�t think it is possible for me to have that conversation without getting emotional, and I just don�t want to do that with him. I�m thinking that I will text him my response to his proposal, and make it clear that I�m a willing participant in this discussion, but that text is working fine for me and I don�t want to sit down and talk. Thoughts and/or advice?

After those texts, he texted hi and have a good day to D5. It felt very loaded and like a test. Gross. I just responded �I�ll tell her you said hi� and he responded �thank you so much!!� It was so unnatural and unlike him and artificial feeling. Left a gross feeling.

FS, I keep hearing your words in my head: I will not fight against this tide. Thinking about a schedule with my daughter and consistent nights of not being with her triggers fear, anxiety sadness and pain to a degree that is unbearable for me. I would literally do anything to avoid this being a part of my life and my daughters life. But I have done all I can, and I can not control this tidal wave. Fighting against it will do me and my daughter no good. I�m reaching way down deep to find a strength and a calm to hold on to while I face this head on. For so long I fought to avoid this and put it off in hopes that things would turn around before it got to this point. The hope for that is gone and I accept that my daughter and I are better served by getting this figured out and having that checked off the list. At this point, I need to have this part behind me. It doesn�t feel survivable, yet I know I will not die.

It�s just too much for me. It�s so so so painful. I�m really trying to be strong.

Sometimes I think that some of the advice here re taking a hard line on communication (Yes, no, ignore) is, well a hard line. That position is absolutely necessary when our spouses/partners are spouting vitriol at us, or where we have expectations that being nice and engaging will somehow win them back, but honestly, when it comes to comms like "how are the kids" or "here's a picture of D10 feeding an elephant", sometimes, there is nothing malicious behind it. They aren't trying to wind us up, or annoy us or show that they're better parents than us.

Sometimes, it's just that they miss their kids (and this cannot be a bad thing).

There are limits though and you need to set your boundaries.Tone helps. A simple non engaging response like the one above. Thumbs up is a favorite (the most passive aggressive emoji ever) and I am partial to the very abrupt, thanks but I've got better things to do than write to you simple but effective "Cool". In person, body language is good. "Hi. She's ready. I'll get her for you". Quick, efficient and to the point.

Oh, and yes, I did totally misread your previous post and personally wanted to punch him when I thought he was sending you pictures of his GF

Hope, maybe I'm in the minority but I don't think you need to respond to messages intended for your daughter. He fired you as his wife and that is a wife job. If he asks if you passed on the message, then you respond in the affirmative. "Yes I did, I always do, she replied XYZ, etc". Until then, I would stay silent or do the thumbs up response that FS suggested. I know you are concerned about the same situation in reverse, that he might not respond when he has your daughter, but you can't control what he does by changing what you do. Do you trust that he will respond to anything urgent or important about your D? If so, then maybe you can put a firmer boundary in place with these messages. If you want to

Regarding the custody agreement, I'd suggest having these discussions over email, not text, and give yourself a lot of time to respond, at least 24 hours. You are not obliged to a sit-down talk if you're not comfortable. Here's a gentle 2x4: you don't need permission to do things that serve you and only you. You are a strong, independent woman. Believe in yourself and your integrity and your right to put yourself first. Negotiating custody is awful and your pain is valid. You will survive. Perhaps put a clause in your agreement that once finalised, it will be reviewed in 18 months (or whatever timeframe) and no sooner. Give yourself a bit of breathing room to relax. That was my L's advice to me.

FS�I definitely hear what you are saying here. And I agree with you; I think in most cases when he does this it is because he misses D5. And today when he did it, the timing was weird and the vibe was just off. I don�t know how to explain, but it rubbed me the wrong way, where typically it�s just his approach that annoys me. If I am missing D5 A when she is with him, well I typically deal with it on my own so as to respect his time with her. Beyond that, when I wish to make contact, I text �H� and ask directly to speak with her or for him to relay a message. His approach of texting D5 directly as if it is her phone is just weird and it does feel like it pushes my personal boundaries. And omfg, if he had the audacity to send me a picture of his GF, aside from being completely bizarre, I would put him right in his place, no holds barred. It would not be pretty.

I think that may speak to what you are saying, Scout. I don�t take issue with the request for contact with his daughter. But his way of going about does feel like what a husband could do with a wife. I don�t think I was able to pinpoint it before, but that is what annoys me about it. It is too intimate. Funny enough I was discussing it with my best friend today and she said the same thing, that it seemed like something her husband might do and is super weird considering the situation. I think you have nailed down what I�m feeling, that he is trying to give me a wife odd-job after I�ve been fired from my full-time role. I�m not into it.
And your point that I can�t control his behavior by changing what I do has merit. It hits home for me. He became such an unsafe person for me emotionally in our M that I did get into the habit of planning my actions in order to prevent him acting out. I think I�ll gradually dial it back from today�s response, to thumbs up, to silence unless asked for confirmation. I don�t like the feeling that fielding these messages give me. �You don�t need permission to do things that serve you and only you.� That is sound advice. Detaching for me means so much more than detaching romantically and emotionally from H. It also means detaching from my fear of what he may or may not do. That is extra hard to do when you do not fundamentally trust the person. (I imagine you can relate to that Scout).
I really like the idea of a clause to not revisit custody before X time has passed. I NEED a bit of breathing room around this. I need this decided and locked in for a bit. Thank you so much Scout, you have really helped me today.

I wish I could relax without worrying about what he will hit me with next. He has proven himself to be selfish, reckless and impulsive on his never ending Peter Pan quest for personal happiness. I feel like I can�t take anymore hits, and I fear them in the coming months. I�m going to find my equilibrium enough that if they do come, I don�t get knocked down.

Just journaling and venting.

Because of my pending divorce combined with Covid situation worsening in my area, I�ve been feeling increasingly isolated and lonely. I do reach out to and safely visit with friends as much as I can. And now that I�m employed I�m exploring ways to start IC again.

There is a wildfire very close to where I live. Still distant enough to not be an immediate threat, but the threat of evacuation is looming. I�m working full time from home while also caring for D5, and tomorrow I will be adding remote Kindergarten to the mix, somehow. It�s a lot. Dealing with the threat of wildfire evacuation on my own has me feeling extremely lonely and depressed. It�s not that I can�t handle it alone; I have no doubt that I can. But having to deal with it alone is what pains me. It leaves me feeling alone and abandoned. Maybe that�s irrational, but it is how I feel, and it is painful.

Before this point I really do feel like I had taken a big step up in my detachment process. Yes, it is difficult and slow for me, but I have made progress. Recently it came to light that my STBXH is dating someone that lives 2 blocks from me. My daughter and I see his truck parked there every weekend. I find it really painful and triggering to see, despite my knowledge that he has a girlfriend. I know that just means I have farther to go than I thought with detachment. I sincerely wish that seeing that wouldn�t bother me. But it does. It just feels like a slap in the face.

I�m just struggling. I�m feeling very alone and in pain. Thanks for reading.

(((Hope))))

Can�t write a lot right now, but wanted to say you are an incredible, strong, caring, amazing mom and woman. I totally get how you are feeling. You have every right to feel the way you do and with everything else going it is overwhelming. Hang in there.

Hope, I am so sorry to read that you are feeling alone right now. It is totally understandable given what you are going through and you are certainly among others who feel the same way right now, both on this board and in the world at large. ((((Hope))))

Have you spoken to your doctor or a mental health professional about your feelings? You don�t have to suffer these feelings alone and your doctor may be able to provide some additional tools or suggestions to help you navigate this season of your life. Pulling my doctor in the loop of my situation was one of the best decisions I made.

In the meantime, we are here for you.

Xx

Hope ~

I second everything may22 said.

You are dealing with some extremely challenging circumstances. Any one of these things (divorce, COVID, wildfires, home schooling) is a major stressor. They can feel like they are piling up on top of each other until it's all just completely overwhelming.

Hang in there Hope. I know you are feeling pretty beat up lately. Who wouldn�t? Be kind to yourself. Know that you are not alone and that this, too, shall pass.

That sux that the gf is so close and you have to see his truck out front of her place. Not much I can say except that it absolutely hurt less over time. The man dating that girl is not the man you were married to. It just isn�t. That guy is gone.

In my sitch my XH moved in with someone before he left our home and I remember what a betrayal and slap in the face that was. However, I also know that it definitely helped me to move on quicker because it extinguished whatever little bit of hope I had that we could rebuild one day. Recently, I thought about what I would do if he suddenly showed up at my door telling me it was all an awful mistake and begged my forgiveness. The answer was pretty simple. I would politely thank him for the apology, decline his invitation and wish him well. That ship has definitely sailed and there is a lot of freedom in that. You will get there too...I promise. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other and dealing with the things you have to in the moment. It will get easier. Focus on what you have and not what you don�t have. Reach out to friends and family. Keep posting and let us support you.

BTW...I�m fortunate because my kids are older than your D but I remember how broken up I was at the idea of having to give up 50% of my time with them. I hated it. The first few times they went with him, I was devastated and would spend the time feeling cheated and resentful until they returned home. Eventually, however, I started to appreciate having some time to do my own thing. I knew they were being cared for and I could FaceTime them whenever I wanted (that was a deal me and XH made...he is free to do the same thing when they are with me) and they could do the same. Now that we�ve been doing this for about 18 months, it is just the routine. My kids are okay and so am I. And I think they are especially okay because they know I am. That�s really important. Giving them the message that we are okay so when they think of us, they think of us as happy and managing well. I did not want my kids to think that I was at home feeling sad and missing them because they would only feel the same way in return and I don�t want that. I want them to be happy when they are with their dad just as I want them to be happy when they are with me. So you have to fake it until you make it unfortunately.

You got this Hope!! I know you do!! (((HUGS)))

Hi Hope,

if you are up for it, a little bit of solutioning... I can't encourage you enough to focus on self-care right now. What do YOU need to regain your feelings of calm and centeredness? What baby steps can you take and celebrate? For instance, can you drive another way so that you don't need to see his car parked outside his new GF's house? Can you give yourself a little treat when you're alone, something it is hard to do with D5 there-- anything from sleeping in to a long bath or staying in your PJs all day and eating chips for dinner? I think self-care is so important and anything you can do to honor yourself and support yourself right now is critical. Also, don't be afraid to vent here or to a friend or family member IRL... we are here for you and your friends and family are too.

(((HOPE)))

xoxo May

May, Sage, unchien, DV6:

Thank you all, sincerely, for the kindness and support. I really, really needed that.

I do feel it�s too many stressors all piled on at once. But, this is my life right now. I try to take time to be grateful for the extra time I am getting with my magnificent child due to Covid/remote school. I am extremely grateful to have found a full time, fully remote job during all of this. It is exactly what I needed and what I hoped for to make all this work in a way that wouldn�t break me. And I have wonderful friends who support me.

May, I do try to focus on self care, especially when D5 isn�t here. I have made a little ritual of ordering takeout that she wouldn�t like on Saturday nights, staying in my pjs and watching movies and shows I wouldn�t watch with her, and face masks of course. And wine. It�s something. I�m also using Duolingo to study Italian, which I�ve wanted to learn for years. And I have a zoom session with my IC tomorrow for the first time since the fall. I LOVE her and I�m really looking forward to it.

The thing I think I need to incorporate is more exercise. I like walking and hiking but I need more, and now with all this smoke it�s not an option. I�m considering a small,,easily stowed away exercise machine (I have less than zero extra space in my tiny home).

I was thinking about self care last night. And I�m a believer and I�m into it, I promise. But (and this is obvious and not even worth saying) what I�m really wanting is for someone to take care of me. Even just for like a night. To take the burden off me and comfort me and let me lean on them. And if I�m honest that is the source of my loneliness. That void. And the knowledge that STBXH is literally down the street giving that to someone else is just...it seems surreal in its level of cruelty from the universe. I know I know I know. But it had to be said.

He continues to lack boundaries in a way that is truly bizarre. He commented that I was giving the construction crew next door quite a show by being in my bathing suit in the kiddie pool with D5. He sat on my couch and tried to show me
Pictures of his (previously our) good friends� new baby. And most bizarre, when he brought D5 to my home straight from the beach and she asked him to get in the bath with her, I made a face at him out of her line of vision to make it clear that he should not do that. He then asked me right in front of her if it was ok with me. I made the same face turned up ten notches and shrugged exaggeratedly to show clearly �NO I am not ok with that, and I don�t want to be the bad guy and this is YOUR line to draw with D5� . And what did he do? Ended up in my bathtub with her. It is so f***ing weird to me that he would do that at this point. Not to mention so uncool to ask me if it�s ok, get a very clear non verbal NO, and then do it anyway. I have held the line with him very well for some time now. I just don�t engage. I feel these behaviors bait me into engaging so he can cast me as he wishes to in his narrative. For now, I am choosing to continue that path because it feels the most detached for me. If I engage, my emotions bubble up. For now I�m going with �walk away in my head�. And also a big F**K YOU, also in my head.

Wow... what an a$$! The entitlement and lack of recognition of how inappropriate that is given the circumstances is mind boggling. But also, in a way, not surprising considering all of the stories we read on here. Sounds like self care is something you have a handle on Hope. Good for you.

RE: wanting someone to take care of you. I can so relate to that feeling. I really can. And there are more than a few people on here who, I�m sure, feel the exact same way. This longing for connection is what sets us apart from most other living beings. It is the essence of being human so of course this is what we struggle with the most when our partners suddenly up and leave and then even worse, replace us with someone else before we�ve even had a moment to adjust. It is cruel and unusual punishment to have to go through this. It will get better though Hope. Once all of this is behind you and you are ready, you will find that connection again. For now, just know that you are not alone and there are lots of people who care about you and supporting you through this... even though we are not right in front of you. (((HUGS)))

Hope ~

Manipulative people create situations where you feel forced into choosing from bad options. You CAN take back your personal power. You CAN set strong boundaries. If you don't do those things, he will keep crossing the line because he knows he can, and you will feel helpless and powerless.

I'm still working on how to set boundaries effectively and it's not easy. The key for me has been to stop caring what reaction I get, or what my STBXW thinks. If I need personal space, I need it, full stop.

Hope, wasn't there some discussion on your thread awhile back about exchanging your D at the door? Could you do that and not invite him in? I agree with DJV and U... that is totally inappropriate and if you can avoid it to some degree by not letting him in the house, I definitely think you should.

Have you followed FlySolo's situation? Her H continually came into her house all the time, two years post-S. She just changed the locks and he flipped out (too bad, so sad) but also I think it was hard because it went on for so long that it made it more difficult with her kids, etc. to put an end to it without feeling or looking like the bad guy. I think you don't want to get to a place where that feels routine, especially for your D. He doesn't get to be in your personal space and take baths with your D and see you with your child in your kiddie pool in your own backyard. Honestly. And it seems like you could probably make that happen now without a lot of fuss or even talking about it-- let your body language demonstrate he isn't welcome inside-- rather than waiting and it needing to be a discussion or something bigger. IDK. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Face masks and wine and PJs takeout and non-kid movies and Italian... all sounds amazing!! Love it! Agree that exercise can help... one thing I started doing that I really like (though have totally fallen off the last couple of months) is doing the seven-minute workout every morning. There are a number of apps that have it and it is such a simple way to get yourself going. All you need is a mat and a chair.

Hang in there. (((Hope)))