Affair Fog-LRT 3

[kto626]

First Thread

Second Thread

[kto626]

Sandi,

Wishful thinking, KTO. She is not traumatized whatsoever! The guilt isn't eating her alive. If she feels any guilt whatsoever at this stage.....it isn't much.

So when does the guilt stage come? I guess I am telling myself she feels guilty but she hasn't shown it anyway.

What stages should I expect? I realize timelines may be a little off, but what stages and when?

That's why you have to emotionally detach from the drama she tries to bring. You can't rationalize crazy!

I am trying to detach, and have been good over the past week. But I am still so emotionally attached to her. Especially with speaking to her about our D so much. I have limited that but it still is every day with all of thins craziness going on.

[kto626]

the WW seems to be good at engaging with her H by starting on a topic that may get his attention.

She tries every day, multiple times a day. She has learned she can text me something about our D, "like how is our D today?" I will wait a while but then finally answer, "She's good." Then immediately, after she will ask, "How are you." I ave been doing my best not to respond. It is always some message form her trying to initiate convo bit then thinks it is ok to keep in contact with the OM. I don't get it.

She has to get it out of her system and it will take time.

In your opinion, how much time? I don't want to do this forever. I am only two months in but I can't go through the summer like this. I guess I need to detach and see what happens. I have only been somewhat good about that for a week or so..off and on before that but solid for a week.

In my case it was the empowerment of W by OM for being the leader, the one that was looked up to, the one that wore the trousers and provided care. I'm not suggesting you try and compete with the OM - not at all, but helps to understand it.

In my scenario, he is less of a man in so many ways. He cannot provide for her. Her own friends have joked with me about how he is less good looking, not successful, etc. But obviously he did something for her...I guess I could use my imagination :-(

Affairs are like drugs, she is an addict who will lie and cheat until she feels her plan B is disappearing and she is out of options.

That is a good way to think about it.

Thanks, OS2. I will keep on your sitch and you on mine. Thinking of you, man.

[kto626]

And to top it off, my 98-year-old grandmother has just tested positive for Coronavirus. :-(

This is the worst time to try and go through all of this.

[KitCat]

And to top it off, my 98-year-old grandmother has just tested positive for Coronavirus. :-(

This is the worst time to try and go through all of this.

I'm so sorry to hear that... sending positive thoughts and hugs. This is such a scary time we live in. Take a day at a time and I hope your grandmother can rely on your strength and the strength of strangers like myself who are sending love and healing.

[LH19]

K,

I'm sorry man. Stay strong.

[kto626]

Thanks, guys. I mean it. Thanks you. .

[Mumin]

Really sorry to hear Kto!
Be strong, for you and for your grand mother.

[Traveler]

Wishing your grandma good thoughts.

[sandi2]

Quote
Wishful thinking, KTO. She is not traumatized whatsoever! The guilt isn't eating her alive. If she feels any guilt whatsoever at this stage.....it isn't much.

So when does the guilt stage come? I guess I am telling myself she feels guilty but she hasn't shown it anyway.

Before I respond, please understand that I am not saying the WW has to admit any of this to her H. I say this b/c I don't want any H trying to put words in the mouth of his WW, so he can check it off the list. Okay?

IMHO, it's when she stops blaming her H for her unhappiness. When she accepts total responsibility for her decisions connected to the affair. When she stops having so much anger toward her H, and stops demonizing him. It's when she stops justifying her actions.

The WW can be described as having a hard, cold heart......for a reason! Look up the word, wayward. Look at the synonyms of wayward. That's your W! Mentally, she knows it's not right to cheat on her H (if she has any standards at all.) Emotionally, she just doesn't care enough. In other words, guilt is not the trump card. I'm sure it sounds quite logical to LBS's.......that their wayward spouse couldn't help but feel guilty for how they've behaved. No, the LBS's are using their own moral compass or religious beliefs to measure the wayward spouse. The wayward spouse has lost their moral compass, at least, temporarily........and perhaps in some cases, permanently.

What stages should I expect? I realize timelines may be a little off, but what stages and when?

It's not that simple. Look, I've written about all this in the link to the WW threads. When I used the word, "stage", I was referring to her still being involved in an affair. Until she ceases all contact with OM, expect more of the same behavior from her. Certain loses may cause feelings of remorse, and sadly, that's what it usually takes before the WW changes. I might write out a thousand scenarios, and not hit her particular one. I just know that as long as she has no consequences for her decisions, she is not likely going to experience feelings of remorse, humility, etc.

I am trying to detach, and have been good over the past week. But I am still so emotionally attached to her. Especially with speaking to her about our D so much.

We aren't saying you have to stop loving her. You know that, right? You are only a couple of months out, and you're wanting to know how long this is going to last. I understand you are in pain, but there are no crystal balls here. I'll try to help by telling you about the usual behavior of WW's and advise you about some things related to your sitch.

[kto626]

Before I respond, please understand that I am not saying the WW has to admit any of this to her H. I say this b/c I don't want any H trying to put words in the mouth of his WW, so he can check it off the list. Okay?

That is very useful info. She hasn't said much other than she is sorry for what she did. But it wasn't vert remorseful.

However, today, after she found out my grandmother tested positive for Corona, she reached out to my mother. That was very big of her and I am sure very hard. She sent a message and said, "I know you probably don't want to open a message from me right now. And I am sorry for the extreme pain I caused to both you and KTO, but once I heard (grandma) tested positive I had to reach out to you and tell you I praying for her." She went on to say nice things about my grandmother. My mother did respond back with thanks and that it is a scary thing and none of us should take things for granted in life (my mons attempt at a little jab but she is more than right).

IMHO, it's when she stops blaming her H for her unhappiness. When she accepts total responsibility for her decisions connected to the affair. When she stops having so much anger toward her H, and stops demonizing him. It's when she stops justifying her actions.

She is still doing this. Not as much lately, actually getting a little better. Recently saying, "I should've told you that I was unhappy in our marriage before and not done what I have done." A few weeks ago it was, You made me walk on eggshells every time I went somewhere" (duh...I wonder why??) I guess it has got a little better.

We aren't saying you have to stop loving her. You know that, right? You are only a couple of months out, and you're wanting to know how long this is going to last. I understand you are in pain, but there are no crystal balls here. I'll try to help by telling you about the usual behavior of WW's and advise you about some things related to your sitch.

I haven't stopped loving her. I just don't say it or even show it. And Sandi, you have been so helpful. You are an angel. I am thankful for your words of advice. Thousand times over, thank you!

[kto626]

Quick update: Again, my W texted me this morning and asked about my work situation. I told her I will be teaching from online 4 hours a day (4 periods with office hours for parents). She immediately said she would work form the house (our shared house). I didn't respond to that text. So a few minutes later she said, "or I can take our D to my parent's house." I also didn't respond to that text.

Later, she found out about my grandmother and messaged my mother. I think that was a big step for her. She is so afraid to face me and definitely afraid to face my mother. I know she is. So it is a big step for her to reach out.

Then out of the blue, her brother called me to check on me. He was very kind and said he still refuses to talk to my W because he will say things she won't like (they haven't had the nest of a relationship anyway). He said that when he spoke to his mom (where my W is staying), she had mentioned about how mad she is getting at my W for not ding anything to better herself. That she was thinking about putting a deadline on how long she can stay. Even though she hasn't yet, I am sure my W knows she can't stay forever, hence why she is trying to sneak back in the house with me.

Later, my W came to drop off my D with me. She asked about my grandmother and began to cry. Saying how sorry she is and knows a 98-year old contracting Corona is an uphill battle. She was very sincere and I know how much my W respected and loved my grandmother (my grandmother said my W is on her S#!tlist...lol). I will give her credit for seeming like she really cares.

At this point, she asked about my work again. I said I had to look into the times and get back to her. Basically, I have an hour-long meeting online (video conference) tomorrow. But I think I am going to use this meeting as a barometer to see how it goes while I am watching my D. Then I will have a better idea of what 4 hours of teaching would look like

The bottom line is still: end contact with OM, be remorseful and own your behaviors (starting to happen a little), and transparency. From there, we can hang out, then begin MC to see if we can reconcile. Otherwise, I will continue to detach and GAL as much as I can(I really am trying).

[LH19]

K,

Really try to keep your expectations at zero. Keep DBing and stick to those requirements.

[kto626]

After my W left yesterday, she texted me last night asking about my grandmother. She said, "I know you don't believe me but I am here for you (heart emoji, heart emoji" I just replied, "ty, I appreciate it."

This morning, she reached out to my mother again offering her to get nursing supplies for her so she could go see my grandmother (my W is a nurse and has access to masks, face shields, scrubs, etc). IIMHO, this is HUGE for my W. She respects my mother a lot and knows that she is pissed at my W. I know it sounds crazy but I bet it would prevent my W from R because she doesn't want to face my mom. It seems like she cracking the ice. Not like she is cake eating with my mother...it must be genuine and difficult for my W.

After that, my W started texting me first saying that she was sad and depressed today and then asking if I wanted her to come by while I had my online meeting. I said, "you can come to hang with my D while the meeting is happening if you wanted." I realize that I probably wasn't smart.
She replied, "I don't want to interrupt her but I didn't know how long your meeting is." I said, "I don't know." So she said "okay". That was the end of it.

An hour later, she sent "how was your meeting?" I said "fine" and then she said, "what's the plan for work then?"

Lots of questions. Lots of temp checking. I'm guessing that is too much texting back and forth. I am waiting sometime before I respond and trying to keep it short.

I am waiting for her to say she has ended contact with the OM. She knows that is the first step. I want to ask her if she has, or bring up in some way? Is that dumb? I would I do that in a smart way? I know I shouldn't try to control or sway her. But can't I ask so I know I just see a lot of change in her behavior already so I am trying the course of not initiating contact but remaining civil when she does.

[LH19]

K,

I would suggest that if you are going to ask her that question then you put on a jock strap first before you get kicked in the nuts.

What is the objective of your question?

If she wanted to work on the marriage and was no longer in contact with OM, you would know.

[kto626]

The objective of my question is to know.

[MrBrside]

I am waiting for her to say she has ended contact with the OM. She knows that is the first step. I want to ask her if she has, or bring up in some way? Is that dumb? I would I do that in a smart way? I know I shouldn't try to control or sway her. But can't I ask so I know I just see a lot of change in her behavior already so I am trying the course of not initiating contact but remaining civil when she does.

I know you have had a rough few weeks, but seriously - You are in Lar Lar land.

You are so so fortunate to have people here spend their time trying to assist you. Sandis advice is worth more than ANY therapy could offer - she has been there, done it and now spends her free time trying to assist the LBS..

Yet i cringe when i read your replys...

Being no contact with the OM WILL NOT make happy families.. Its so obvious from your posts you are looking for that little crumb to put right all the wrongs in the past. It really doesnt work like that.

I doubt you will follow this advice, and if you do, you will probably still ignore it..

Search for the topic by Curtis - From memory its something like persistance and endurance.

Your posts are very similar to his.. He would come on here and say how he was going to do X Y and Z against the board advice.. His justification was he had searched old posts and found it worked for Mr A and Mr S - what he didnt grasp is that it worked for Mr A and S but crashed and burned for Mr C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L,M,N,O,P,Q etc etc - you get the picture. He took the smallest little thing he could turn into a positive and hoped it would apply to him.
12 months after his first post he was still in limbo, his wife had moved onto OM3, OM4 etc, ate so much cake that she would be morbidly obese - and his wife still didnt respect him - but we refused to change his mindset - and i personally feel he lost a lot of respect from the vets here because he didnt listen to them either. He never truelly grasped that you cannot control the other person - and you dont either.

You really need to ask yourself do you want to feel like you do today, yesterday and the day before in 12 or 18 months time. Unless you seriously start walking the walk, you will be in the same head mentality in 12 months time - and even if you are playing happy families with your wife, she will still be looking for the next OM - why - because neither of you have actually worked on yourselves.

[neffer]

Hey Kto, hope your grandma gets well soon.

Are you in a hurry? Remember it´s a marathon. Live the present time. Train your mind to do that. If not, you´ll get anxieties. Don´t do that.

You have really good advice here. Time is on your side. Keep calm and keep DB

Patience. There´s a long road ahead.

[kto626]

Thanks, neffer and MrBrside. I do follow the advice but I find myself coming on here when I feel myself walking to the edge of despair (aka contacting her). I am getting better, but I am looking for a quick reminder of what I need to be doing.

I do feel like she is beginning to turn but I don't know if she is ending contact wit the OM. Her actions are seeming like she is but I have no idea. So I will continue to detach, work on myself, and try to focus on the present.

And MrBrside, I know you think I am doing things against the board's advice, but I haven't. Just walk me away from the edge is all...

[LH19]

K,

I really really want you to keep your expectations at zero. If and when she seizes contact with om and wants to reconcile you will know. Until then don’t waste your time speculating.

[kto626]

Okay, LH. Good advice. She is just temp checking and I was getting my hopes up. I will keep your advice in mind.

[MrBrside]

I do feel like she is beginning to turn but I don't know if she is ending contact wit the OM. Her actions are seeming like she is but I have no idea. So I will continue to detach, work on myself, and try to focus on the present.

She isnt beginning to turn - Typical WW behaviour. In the current climate her options are limited and she is keeping you interested as a failover option. Very ironically, my WW has never been so nice over the limited contact we have had over the past week.. The truth came out on Sunday when i found out from my daughter that WWs sister and mum had given her a roasting for still seeing the OM while we were in lockdown. On Sunday i receive a random message from WW asking me to assist in any DIY / technology issues etc while in lockdown because she has nobody else to ask. Of course she put the guilt trip on it "being for the children" - Needless to say i ignored - to which i then got abuse later...( shows true colours as i didnt come running) - point being she has been gone over 12 months, i dont have verbal convesations with her and anything non child related is ignored.. Yet 12 months later she still expects my assistance.. And their true colours show when they don't get their way - They WILL take take take IF YOU allow it.

And MrBrside, I know you think I am doing things against the board's advice, but I haven't. Just walk me away from the edge is all...

You have complete control of you ! YOU... So start by not even getting close to the edge. Be the guy in the sports car zooming down the country lane with the wind blowing through your hair. YOU are allowing yourself to get to the edge. Dont even start to walk that mountain - keep firm feet way down at the bottom - there is then zero risk of getting close to the top.
Get a chinup bar for a door frame ( £15 ) or set yourself a pressup challange - 100 a day - NO exceptions or excuses.
Start today. By the end of April thats 3100 pressups minimum.. You will feel better.. And if you feel like you are about to walk up that cliff, do another 100.

You are the only one who can stop yourself getting to the edge.

[kto626]

point being she has been gone over 12 months, i dont have verbal convesations with her and anything non child related is ignored.

That is what my W is always doing. "Can you do this for our D? How is our D doing? Can you tell her I love her? Do you want me to get groceries for her? Can I drop her off her scooter/toys for her to use?" etc. etc. etc.

That how she starts every text convo, usually first thing in the morning but it can come at any time during the day. Then she will ask "how are you? Do you need help with your work schedule? Do you want me to work from the house (our shared house)?" These comments I am trying to ignore or state that I don't want her to. How else should I respond?

Lastly, she did ask if I needed a haircut because my hair is getting so long with businesses being closed. I am debating it. I know you would say no but she has all of the clippers, equipment, etc. I am thinking to let her do it then ask her to leave. I am not seeing any other ppl so no one else can do it and I beginning online teaching and have numerous meetings with my supervisor/bosses and I don't want to look like a scrub. I know you all would say no but what other choice do I have? I am not shaving my head if that is what you are thinking...lol. These are different times. Normally I would just get a haircut somewhere but I can't do that

[MrBrside]

That is what my W is always doing. "Can you do this for our D? How is our D doing? Can you tell her I love her? Do you want me to get groceries for her? Can I drop her off her scooter/toys for her to use?" etc. etc. etc.

Because you allow it to happen. It comes back to self respect. If you allow it to happen, she will take advantage. Even if you did stand up to her, she will still prod and poke hoping to find a chink in the armour or for you to let your guard down. Decide what you want / will do and stick to it.. Anything else, dont rise to it.

Sandi wrote a great piece on this, where she explains the WW will use the LBS as babysitter, plumber, handyman etc etc - because the LBS allows it. = zero respect.

Lastly, she did ask if I needed a haircut because my hair is getting so long with businesses being closed. I am debating it. I know you would say no but she has all of the clippers, equipment, etc. I am thinking to let her do it then ask her to leave. I am not seeing any other ppl so no one else can do it and I beginning online teaching and have numerous meetings with my supervisor/bosses and I don't want to look like a scrub. I know you all would say no but what other choice do I have? I am not shaving my head if that is what you are thinking...lol. These are different times. Normally I would just get a haircut somewhere but I can't do that

In the 12 months since my WW left ( 29th March 2019) i have never asked her for a single thing.. Not one.. She fired me as her partner - if my employee fired me, would i go back and ask for help ? would i help them if they asked me ? hell no.
Why is this any different. If your wife had died, you wouldnt have that fallback option for a haircut would you? if your WW wasnt cake eating and ran off to another country / state with OM, you wouldnt have the option would you ? Yes its the easy option.. But you need to start standing on your own two feet.. Ladies dont like needy males. This is your chance to stand tall... so do it.

[kto626]

This is your chance to stand tall... so do it.

You're right. Time to grow my hair long I guess. I just have to figure out a way to tell her I don;t want her to come cut my hair. I guess when she asks, "what time?" I will just say I have decided not to cut my hair right now. That good?

I have another question after speaking to a friend who went through D. In the state I live, marriage is considered long term 5 years and beyond, therefore, allowing my W to more finances and rights. We have been married for 4.5 years. My friend said if this drags on, and the courts remain closed, then I should file for legal separation (don't need the courts for this). In this state it basically it is notarized document timestamp when the separation occurred, child custody and such. No finances or assets can be resolved here but I thought this would prevent me from going beyond 5 years. Admittedly, this may be a wake-up call for my W to know I am serious. So yes, it is a two-fold motive but I do not want to give up more finances because I can't even file for D (if I even wanted to).

I bought our house before we were married, paid every cent from my own checking account, but if we go beyond 5 years, she qualifies for alimony and more financial assets regardless of her paying NOTHING since we married, which I think is ridiculous.

Thoughts?

[LH19]

100% do it. You have to protect yourself.

Are you seriously afraid to tell your W you don’t want a haircut?

[MrBrside]

You're right. Time to grow my hair long I guess. I just have to figure out a way to tell her I don;t want her to come cut my hair. I guess when she asks, "what time?" I will just say I have decided not to cut my hair right now. That good?

Handle the best way you see fit, but stick with it...

That said, i'm a massive fan of self improvement.. so once lock down ends, get out and sort your hair, your clothes and some nice aftershave.. if you havent already.

Admittedly, this may be a wake-up call for my W to know I am serious.

Wrong mind process - don't think of this as a wakeup call - you do this because you either want to, or because you are trying to protect your finances.. not as a wakeup - You do it for you - and you do it when you plan on sticking to it.. Ive been here 12 months and i dont think you should file yet - you arent strong enough and will fold at the first sign your WW wants you.

I can see this panning out like this - If your WW is familiar with this state law, she will come begging for you back.. No remorse or real regret... 5 years passes and it starts again - only this time you lose that 5 year divorce rule.

[MrBrside]

100% do it. You have to protect yourself.

I would / You would and any rational person would. ( hence i agree )

I feel KTO will fold and look week if WW flashes her eye lids.

He needs to do it because he sees the benefit - but not retract.

[LH19]

Understand MB but there is a big carrot at the end of the stick. I’m not gonna lie I am a big numbers man and the statistics are heavily favored that he will end up D anyway.

[Traveler]

Hi Kto626,

I'm glad you're saw the light on the haircut. It's like video chats with kids in the background. Everyone single, and many couples, are in the same boat--it's no haircut or a self-haircut until the lockdown ends. It's natural to keep thinking of ways our ex's are "essential". They usually aren't. We can become stronger.

I'm with you on D to protect your assets. I'm worried about the "wakeup call" motive, because based on self-preservation the right move is to proceed even if she did "wake up". Nothing stops you from reconciling while and after the D completes and then remarrying with a whole new 5-year clock--there's even poetry given how she shattered this marriage in Relationship 2.0 being symbolized by a whole new marriage.

[kto626]

I feel KTO will fold and look week if WW flashes her eye lids.

He needs to do it because he sees the benefit - but not retract.

First, I can't really fold because in my state the separation is meaningless. It basically says you are separated and here is the agreed-upon parenting time/schedule, proves you are living separately (asks for addresses) and asks who is paying for the home and child (me). No division of finances, no assets, nothing else can be included. If I decide later to go through with D, that is an entirely different process. They usually don't even look at the separation agreement when you D. In my state, only at-fault divorces can have legal separations so they are rare but adultery is an at-fault D. Also, in my state, you don't even need a lawyer t do this. They have put all the forms online for you to fill out. Once that happens, notarize it, send to the state and pay $150 to file the separation agreement (I wouldn't be able to take this step until courts pen but I can have it notarized to stop the clock before we hit 5 years).

Here are the reasons why I want to do it, in order.

1. It time stamps the separation so that the courts one day could see we separated before the 5 years.
2. It allows me to feel like I have some control of where our relationship is heading (right now I am in limbo and I hate it). I know I can't control, her, but I can control where our relationship is headed.
3. Although some agree, and some don't, I think they will show her that I am not sitting here waiting for her to make up her mind. That I am starting to make up mine. That she knows what my expectations are and she has done nothing to work towards them. So I will move forward the only way can...seperation. Remember, D is impossible right now and probably will be for months. This may or may not help her to wake up. But that is not the main reason I am doing it. I need to time stamp his so I don't pay her for years and years!

[LH19]

100 percent do it today.

[sandi2]

Here are the reasons why I want to do it, in order.

1. It time stamps the separation so that the courts one day could see we separated before the 5 years.
2. It allows me to feel like I have some control of where our relationship is heading (right now I am in limbo and I hate it). I know I can't control, her, but I can control where our relationship is headed.
3. Although some agree, and some don't, I think they will show her that I am not sitting here waiting for her to make up her mind. That I am starting to make up mine. That she knows what my expectations are and she has done nothing to work towards them. So I will move forward the only way can...seperation. Remember, D is impossible right now and probably will be for months. This may or may not help her to wake up. But that is not the main reason I am doing it. I need to time stamp his so I don't pay her for years and years!

Well, you have to protect yourself financially. One reason that single men are hesitant to get married these days, is b/c the courts favor the wife in divorces and the H is financially ruined. I'm not a lawyer and don't know how effective the stamp would be some time in the future, after living together again.

My concern is that this step to file legal separation is coming from a H who doesn't know how to tell his WW not to come over to cut his hair.

She is so afraid to face me and definitely afraid to face my mother. I know she is. So it is a big step for her to reach out.

This is NOT a "step" toward reconciling the MR. Your W has done nothing, that I can tell, except voice concern for your grandmother. Now, I am very suspicious of her so-called "reaching out", b/c you are jumping all over it. I see a WW taking this situation with your grandmother, and using her "concern" to get on friendly terms with you. She just looking for a crack in the door to get back inside. That's why she is blowing up your phone with texts. And finally, she snagged the right one when she asked about cutting your hair. Don't be blind to what she's doing.

Did you stop to think that all the other teachers are in the same boat and can't get their hair cut/fixed? You've got to stop trying to rationalize reasons to let her back, b/c if you don't, she's going to play you for a sucker.

[kto626]

This is NOT a "step" toward reconciling the MR. Your W has done nothing, that I can tell, except voice concern for your grandmother. Now, I am very suspicious of her so-called "reaching out", b/c you are jumping all over it. I see a WW taking this situation with your grandmother, and using her "concern" to get on friendly terms with you

I see what you are saying but my W did apologize to my mother for the pain she has caused and said how sorry she was for the pain she has caused me. She said she realizes that isn't going to do much but she is incredibly sorry. Knowing my W, I do give her credit for that. I realize this isn't R with me, but it is something.

[LH19]

K,

I’ll say it again. It’s words which are pretty much meaningless.

No if she said I’m sorry for all the pain I caused what can I do to fix it? Then actually followed through with it no contact, IC, MC etc then that would be something.

[MrBrside]

I see what you are saying but my W did apologize to my mother for the pain she has caused and said how sorry she was for the pain she has caused me. She said she realizes that isn't going to do much but she is incredibly sorry. Knowing my W, I do give her credit for that. I realize this isn't R with me, but it is something.

These are just words though... Again you are looking for the best outcome / WW in the best light when the reality is she is still WW.

If you read about 1/2 stories on here there is always a point where the WW starts to make an effort etc. There is a motive, or maybe for a brief second they start to realise on what they are giving up.. BUT they are still wayward and unless your WW puts some serious effort into changing ( ive seen none ) you are back to square 1...

Just read back through your posts.. There are at least a couple of occasions ( if not more ) where you have frustrated WW and she has shown her true colours.. Empty words to your mother dont really carry a lot of weight in reconciling..
Again, your mindset is "but she" - you are trying to justify her words as progress - believe nothing they say !

[Mumin]

You are getting good advice here KT.
Only do separation for YOU.
Could you verify if legal sep actually avoids the 5-year deadline?

That is what my W is always doing. "Can you do this for our D? How is our D doing? Can you tell her I love her? Do you want me to get groceries for her? Can I drop her off her scooter/toys for her to use?" etc. etc. etc.

In regards to this, I would only answer "How is D doing?" and answer it later.
All the other she can do on her time with the child or on FaceTime.

[kto626]

Could you verify if legal sep actually avoids the 5-year deadline?

I spoke to my L today and she said the 5-year thing is real but the separation may not help time stamp it. She said we could wait until as late as July before filing that anyways. So she told me to wait because courts are closed and not much can be done.

[kto626]

Update: I took the approach I would not say anything about the haircut unless she did. Radio silence until noon today when she texted from her parent's house. I know I wasn't following everything as I should, but I am having a tough day so I took her bait a little but then backed off. Here is the sum of it then tell me your thoughts:

W: How is your grandmother today?
H: Not great, same as yesterday.
W: Do you want D and I to come by so we can take the dog for a walk?
W: I don't know I just didn't know if our D would cheer you up.
H: You know where I stand in you coming over. I need to protect myself and move forward. So please do not text or reach out to offer to come by.
W: Okay, I understand and I will respect your wishes. I was just trying to be supportive in this awful time. I know the other stuff isn't easy. Maybe we will just stay here then. Sorry if I upset you asking to come over. I know I've already done all the damage.

Here is where I became weak...
H: Do you want to be here or are you coming for our D?
W: I want to be there to support you. I don't know what the hell else I want or what I am doing. I know I need to be here right now. I am sorry and I understand that isn't fair or easy.
H: Go to IC. Do it for you or our D.

That was it. No response back. I know I made some mistakes but I am really struggling with isolating alone through all of this. My grandmother isn't doing well and I can't GAL like I want to. I need to move forward as if she isn't coming back for my own psyche.

Again, thank you, everyone, for your support. I am trying to follow it and even though I have some setbacks and failures, I am learning.

[LH19]

Yeah K you are your own worst enemy. It’s fine to have a hard line stance but your passive aggressive in some of your texts. Also, be careful what you wish for because a lot of ICs will push WWs towards divorce if it’s what they think will make them happy and keep them coming back and paying money.

You keep setting yourself back but tomorrow is another day.

[sandi2]

H: Do you want to be here or are you coming for our D?

Personally, I think it is a mistake to put your daughter in the middle. What if your W said she wanted to be there or going there for the D? You already took a stance on her staying out of the house, so why even ask her that kind of question?

H: Go to IC. Do it for you or our D.

Neither do I understand why you would tell her to go to IC for the daughter.

I suppose the good news is that you can recognize where you weakened. Next time, try to avoid such statements.

[kto626]

Quote
H: Go to IC. Do it for you or our D.


Neither do I understand why you would tell her to go to IC for the daughter.

You are right. I shouldn't put my D in the middle of it. It was a statement that my IC and I came up with because he knows my W well and after explaining some of the scenarios that have played out, he is concerned for my W's mental stability. He has stressed to her (when we were in MC) the importance of her going to IC due to her traumatized childhood (her mother cheated and drank excessively and essentially abandoned her...probably why she is who she is today). So after talking with him yesterday, he continued to stress that importance. He said that she is going to break if she doesn't deal with everything and just continues to brush it under the rug. He said she should do it for her D if nothing else so she can parent in an appropriate way.

So even though I can't control her, I said what I said. And after saying it, my W texted me saying "she has emailed her IC to set up a FaceTime appointment (not allowed face to face with the Coronavirus). She was going to IC for the first two weeks after BD, bit as some have pointed out, she probably was challenged by her IC so she quit going. regardless of what happens to us, she needs to be a good mother and not choose booze and bars over her kid like she has previously done. She loves her D, but she certainly hasn't shown that the last year lying to her face about going to IC when in fact she was going to see the OM. That is what bothers me the most, lying to a 3-year-old every week when my D would ask where she was going and she said to an appointment (IC). She wasn't.

One last question: when I post about S/D, or anyone else does for that matter, why do so many say to do it? Isn't this site about divorce busting and not divorce initiation? I am 2 months in and people say to D. Isn't that the opposite of what MWD says? I realize it is my journey, my choice. But it seems counter-intuitive to support divorce so much on a divorce busting site. I can already hear all the boos.

[LH19]

K,

I will give you my opinion. This site is called Divorce Busting which is obviously great marketing and the goal for people here. The two problems I feel newbies run into are one they are to emotionally attached to implement DB strategies and number two they don’t understand the timeline for their situation to turn around. Pursuit, weakness, plactating and relationship talks never work but newbies do it all the time. This actually hurts their situation and pushes the WW further away. Timelines are typically a minimum 2-5 years for WW to work through their issues.

You have a WW who is openly in another relationship with an OM and is unwilling to end it. This is MY OPINION and only MY OPINION that shows total disrespect and you have only one option. Down the road if she gets her $hit together you can think about a recon.

It all comes down to your values and what you are willing to tolerate. As Sandi always says “for a woman to love a man she must respect him first”.

[MrBrside]

It was a statement that my IC and I came up with because he knows my W well and after explaining some of the scenarios that have played out.

1 word - Control. You ( nor the IC ) can control her. You can only control yourself.

her traumatized childhood (her mother cheated and drank excessively and essentially abandoned her...probably why she is who she is today). So after talking with him yesterday, he continued to stress that importance. He said that she is going to break if she doesn't deal with everything and just continues to brush it under the rug.

Not sure if its sunked in yet - She isnt going to break - She is already broken. My WW had a similar childhood - dad cheated and abandoned her.. Search BPD - Very common when children suffer early trauma.. She has probably been broken since way before you met her - you just chose to ignore it - and to a degree still are.

The thing is - with people like your WW.. Some are beyond fixing and some don't want to be fixed.. Either way, its not your job to fix her !!!

He said she should do it for her D if nothing else so she can parent in an appropriate way.

Again, its not your job to fix her ? - YOU control YOU - your focus should be on being the best dad possible for your daughter. Your wife has let herself, you, the family and daughter down - This is where you stand up and show the world and your daughter that your WWs decissions have no impact on you. Go one step further and learn from your WW...Look at how she messes up and make a mental note.. Then make sure you dont do it. As your daughter gets older she will know who the Rock is - and respect you - Carry on the way you are and your daughter will grow up seeing a weak father figure.

she needs to be a good mother and not choose booze and bars over her kid like she has previously done. She loves her D, but she certainly hasn't shown that the last year lying to her face about going to IC when in fact she was going to see the OM. That is what bothers me the most, lying to a 3-year-old every week when my D would ask where she was going and she said to an appointment (IC). She wasn't.

Why does she need to be a good mother ? Again you are trying to control it. If she wants to be a terrible mother, its her choice. You don't get much of a say in it. My WW was a great mother for the 1st child.. Amazing. Something happened in her head and by child 2 she was going off the rails.. By pregnancy 3 she was drinking through the pregnancy ! - even though i disapproved.. She will lie and lie and lie to you, her family, your child - anybody...

Look up BPD and venrable Narsasism.. similar traits and suit your WW to a T..

You made a mistake of picking a bad partner. You cant change that now.. What you can change is how your daughter sees her father.

One last question: when I post about S/D, or anyone else does for that matter, why do so many say to do it? Isn't this site about divorce busting and not divorce initiation? I am 2 months in and people say to D. Isn't that the opposite of what MWD says? I realize it is my journey, my choice. But it seems counter-intuitive to support divorce so much on a divorce busting site. I can already hear all the boos.

Me, you and 99% of the people come here looking for a magic bullet - how we can make our cheating partners fall in love with us again and dump the OM / OW. The OM/OW is the problem - if they end the affair we can get back to out happy relationship blar blar blar - So everything you read is counter-intuative. You are still VERY MUCH in that magic bullet phase and i dont think its sunk in yet that your marrige is gone... Even if she ends the affair, she doesnt repect you and it will come crashing down in 6 months, 12 months etc..
I cant tell you what the outcome for you will be, as you take your own path.
For me, it was a greater understanding of the WW mindset - Self Reflection and knowing what i needed to do to improve myself - I'm made a lot of changes in the past 12 months and feel 10 years younger. I made these changes for me and not WW - I know that one day i will have another long term relationship - and it will be succesful - as i wont make te mistakes i made 1st time - thanks to this site.. As for your WW / my WW and so many other WWs out there.. They will crash and burn becuase they never think they were the issue.

[Traveler]

she needs to be a good mother and not choose booze and bars over her kid like she has previously done. She loves her D, but she certainly hasn't shown that the last year lying to her face about going to IC when in fact she was going to see the OM. That is what bothers me the most, lying to a 3-year-old every week when my D would ask where she was going and she said to an appointment (IC). She wasn't.

Why does she need to be a good mother ? Again you are trying to control it.

If she fails--e.g., is physical abusive or suicidal or leaves your D3 alone or is convicted of a felony--there are recourses such as emergency mental evaluations, temporary custody, and/or child protective services.

Between "D-" to "A+" it's up to her. You control your grade. If your partner never takes your kids to the doctor, dentist, or ensures they do their school projects you can do all those during your custody.

Many single parents do exactly that!

I get wanting to support/encourage her improvements.

[kto626]

MrBrside:

Why does she need to be a good mother ?

Quick answer, so my D doesn't out to be like her mother and her grandmother. Why wouldn't I want the best for my D? I understand I can not control her but in one minute you talk about trauma leading to BPD and Narcissism. The next you say, who cares in your D mother is a drunk, selfish, cheater. With all due respect, you make no sense. I get the fact I can't change her. But I made one comment about seeking help. I didn't pick her, get a new outfit, a coffee and from her at her IC. I went the best for my D, plain and simple. my D3 is too young to know now. So if my W has a heart and loves her D, and she does very much, she has a chance to make it right for her, not me.

Some are beyond fixing and some don't want to be fixed

She may be beyond fixing, however, she has said numerous times she is "f'd up." She has said it to me, the MC, her BF's. She has said she has to figure her head out. Now, I realize these are just words. But if she really goes back to IC, and I mean for a while, then why wouldn't I want that? And that would be behavior, not words.

You made a mistake of picking a bad partner. You cant change that now.. What you can change is how your daughter sees her father.

Now you are speaking the truth.

ou are still VERY MUCH in that magic bullet phase

Also, true. After reading over OS2 thread, I saw he mentioned a book called Women's Infidelity. After reading over a synopsis, she was able to put it in a new way, a way identical to the advice on the board. Through the eyes of the WW, bu me chasing or remaining in contact, I am giving her the ingredients to continue her affair. She gets both guys making her feel superior. It dawned on me, don't give her the ingredients. It says as soon as she loses the ingredients, her A becomes an R, and most of the time they don't want an R because they enjoyed the excitement of the A. It also talks about the four stages of a betrayed H. Also, accurate info if you want to look into it. It agrees with you all saying I need to detach to the point where I don't care about the outcome of our relationship. I can't control the outcome, so don't care about the outcome That is what I want. I realize that is what you all have been saying but maybe it was the way she wrote it...I don't know but it resonated with me.

As I was reading over this today, my W texted "how are you guys?" I didn't respond. This is after me telling her to stop sending me texts and asking to hangout. Since I said that 24 hours ago she has sent me pics of our D, a produced video of my D with my W trying to coax her o say she loves me on video, and numerous texts. I have responded to zero. I am done being an ingredient.

[kto626]

CWarrior:

Between "D-" to "A+" it's up to her. frown You control your grade. If your partner never takes your kids to the doctor, dentist, or ensures they do their school projects you can do all those during your custody.

Many single parents do exactly that!

I get wanting to support/encourage her improvements.

Well said. I'm a teacher so I know that my grade is my sole responsibility. No matter how hard I teach another student, they need to work to get their grade. They need to study or else they will never get it. Very well said.


PS. After my W texted "How are you guys" a few hours ago, and i ignored it, now I am getting ????? texts. I JUST TOLD HER YESTERDAY TO STOP TEXTING AND TRYING TO COME BY. SHE WILL TALK TO OUR A 8pm. But yet, she continues. If she gets out of hand and sends numerous texts and calls 20+ times (like last week), what do I say to make her stop?

[LH19]

Just keep ignoring and she’ll eventually get the hint. If you need to just remind her one more time.

[Mumin]

Hi KT. Thanks for your encouraging post on my thread!

As your daughter gets older she will know who the Rock is

This!
After speaking to IC and others I have heard several examples where the child chooses to live ONLY with the "rock-parent". This is something that might happen to both of us. In fact if W doesnt get a grip of things I will introduce these thoughts to my D5 when she is maybe 8-9 (This is in 2-3 years). When she is older still this will be completely up to my daughters in my opinion.
But if W gets her [censored] together it wont be something that I bring up or even encourage. I'd prefer my kids have two stable and "healthy" parents to look back at.

But if she really goes back to IC, and I mean for a while, then why wouldn't I want that?

Point is she should go for HER and she nees to decide this. Not because you suggested/said it.

Since I said that 24 hours ago she has sent me pics of our D, a produced video of my D with my W trying to coax her o say she loves me on video, and numerous texts.

This is crazy! Good on you for not engaging! Stay strong!

After reading over a synopsis

Where did you find the synopsis?

If she gets out of hand and sends numerous texts and calls 20+ times (like last week), what do I say to make her stop?

Like LH said. Just ignore! Laugh at her in your mind!
Like I said earlier, use airplane mode AND/OR shut of notifications if it get out of hand or you get emotional.

[MrBrside]

Quick answer, so my D doesn't out to be like her mother and her grandmother. Why wouldn't I want the best for my D? I understand I can not control her but in one minute you talk about trauma leading to BPD and Narcissism. The next you say, who cares in your D mother is a drunk, selfish, cheater. With all due respect, you make no sense.

I totally get you want the best for your daughter - but you are still so tied up in emotion that you think the solution is to stay with a WW who doesnt love you, disrespects you and had mental health issues ?

I think you are fortunate that this happened while your daughter was 3. I have 3 daughters and my 5 year old was most affected by this. The 3 year old didnt really understand it. I would say D5 was / is traumatised, but what can i do ? - Simple - Be the best dad i can be and closely monitor. Being a good dad doesnt mean you need to stay in a relationship with a damaged individual. Look at the numbers ( lets say 10 years until D3 is 13 and can make her own mind up ) - Lets assume ( and i dont think your arrangements have been finalised yet ? , so its an assumption ) you do the 50/50 parenting. You get to be that great dad for 50% of her life. In that time you show nothing but love, support, strength, wisdom, dignity, fun, respect etc - you become the rock. When D is with you, you are always there for her. You do fun things together, you play with her and not par her off with a TV, you read / educate / do jigsaws - you have conversations etc.
You cant make up for the mother being a bad mother and just ignoring her, while she sits on her phone, but you can show her thats not the norm.. I say 10 years, but within 3 or 4 your D will know where she is loved / supported. You cant control how your WW treats her, but you can get some self respect and shine for D.. In 10 years you will be the cool dad that your D looks up to - the one who all her friends like and respect.. The one who all the other parents respect - You dont need to wave a flag saying "im a good dad" - People know who the good parents are.. Just visit the beach for the day after this blows over.. you will see 30% of parents engaging with their children - the other 70% ignoring them while they are busy on their phone, drinking beer, or sunbathing.

Lets Look at the alternative - WW calls it a day with other man and you take her back. You have made very few self improvements and any you did make will go out of the window once WW comes back, as regardless of all the advice here that is your primary goal ( not just yours, any new LBS ) - underlying issues arent fixed and you will settle for that.. WW will still not respect you and i suspect you will not work on self respect for fear of losing her again - if anything you will overcompensate with the love / fixing to keep her - D grows up in an enviroment where mum is disrespectful to father ( and maybe daugheter ) while she lives on her phone, ignoring D and father. You just want to keep the peace and dont want to risk losing WW again, hence will go with this dynamic - D will start to understand more and more as she gets older ( and IMO there is more risk of trauma ).. WW will eventually cheat again and this goes full circle - D is older now and will definetly understand more than when 3 and will be more traumatised than now - And repeat - idefinetly until you change the dynamic or WW actually finds "true love" with OM22 etc...

She may be beyond fixing, however, she has said numerous times she is "f'd up." She has said it to me, the MC, her BF's. She has said she has to figure her head out. Now, I realize these are just words. But if she really goes back to IC, and I mean for a while, then why wouldn't I want that? And that would be behavior, not words.

She could go back 10 or 100 times.. Unless you make the changes as well no amount of IC will make her respect you. You need to work on yourself as well


You will find no advice better than this site - stick with it. Once them rose tinded glasses break you see a whole new world

[kto626]

Mumin, first know I also follow your thread and I am wishing you the best.

After speaking to IC and others I have heard several examples where the child chooses to live ONLY with the "rock-parent".

From what I have been told in my state this can't happen until my D is 16 before they allow her to decide for herself. Obviously, if there is abuse, W drinking too much, etc. that would change. My W loves her D. Shows her that love and she has gotten much better over the last year in spending time with her. But then she would lie to her face to go out with the OM, so I don't know.

Quote
Since I said that 24 hours ago she has sent me pics of our D, a produced video of my D with my W trying to coax her o say she loves me on video, and numerous texts.

This is crazy! Good on you for not engaging! Stay strong!

I did stay strong. And it continued last night. After texting, "how are you guys?" and then "??????", and then "just text me back and tell me you guys are alright." I ignored all of them knowing that she was trying to engage me in convo. She had to wait until 8pm to talk to our D. When my W FaceTiemd with my D, my W stared saying, I need to talk to your father. I was in the other room (listening a little) and I said not hats okay. She insisted and my D brought over the phone and she said,
W: you can't text me back and tell me you guys are alright?
H: You know what I said yesterday.
W: I get to know if my D was alright (the ironic thing was she asked if WE are alright)
H: I asked you yesterday to respect my wishes and you don't get 24/7 access to us anymore.
W: F you. and hung up.

Within 30 seconds the texts came. "F you." And then, "I am f-ing done" and then "you literally hold our D against me and I would NEVER do that to you." I responded with one text "If there is ever an emergency or something you need to know you will be the first one to know."

Where did you find the synopsis?

https://womensinfidelity.com/

Props to OS2 and Sandi for recommending this book. I think I will get it to read.

[kto626]

MrBrside: Thank you for offering so much support. I do value your insight and appreciate your advice.

She could go back 10 or 100 times.. Unless you make the changes as well no amount of IC will make her respect you. You need to work on yourself as well

You are completely right. I am trying to make that switch from listening to my heart and start listening to my head. I am working out, reading, and trying to stay centered and unemotional. I have gotten better but have a little more work to do. I am finally sending the message clearly to my W that I don't want to engage in convo, I don't want her to come over, that she can live any life she wants and I can do the same. I need to stay strong on that and am doing okay with it so far. Over the last 1-2 weeks, there have been LC and it has only been about my D (even though my W keeps trying to engage me). Again, I will not be an ingredient to her A.

Can I ask a question:
There are a few females that I have spoken to and they are obviously interested in me. They seem nice and I am questioning of meeting one of them to take the dogs for a walk (social distancing). What are your thoughts on dating or seeing what else is out there? I think it would help me move forward. They are aware of my separation but not the affair. Although it's not what people would want to hear, I do want my W back but am trying to move forward because I become more and more skeptical that we would ever get back together in a long-lasting relationship.

[MrBrside]

I responded with one text "If there is ever an emergency or something you need to know you will be the first one to know."

Brilliant response - i wrote a similar thing when my WW was blowing up my phone..

All the abuse shows one thing though - she hasnt changed one bit.

[MrBrside]

Can I ask a question:
There are a few females that I have spoken to and they are obviously interested in me. They seem nice and I am questioning of meeting one of them to take the dogs for a walk (social distancing). What are your thoughts on dating or seeing what else is out there? I think it would help me move forward. They are aware of my separation but not the affair. Although it's not what people would want to hear, I do want my W back but am trying to move forward because I become more and more skeptical that we would ever get back together in a long-lasting relationship.

Personally - WAY TOO SOON - with all due respect you are still broken. Meeting a new lady now is a car crash. You are still thinking with emotion and your rational isnt bang on. You will ignore any and all red flags and boom - car crash.

I waited 6 months - the women will still be there in 6 months and your head will be in a better place. Its also not fair on the women either - your heads in the wrong place and you or them will get hurt..

Theres no rush - WORK ON YOU..

[kto626]

Okay thanks, MrBrside. Too soon is right and it isn't as much about me being hurt but I don't want to be unfair to them. I don't want a relationship, just companionship. That's not fair to them.

[LH19]

K,

If it’s just dog walking and are looking for some companionship then I say go for it. Just make it clear you are not looking for anything more then a friendship.

Nice work. She’s losing control and doesn’t like it. Just proves her niceness was all BS.

[Traveler]

Hi Kto626,

Wow--your responses to your ex-wife really nailed it!

As for female companionship, that's an interesting can of worms.

I've thought about the pros and cons of dating quickly.

First, being ethical requires the other partner knowing you're recently single. I assume the other party is an adult capable of and responsible for making their own decisions (e.g., "Should I date someone who's broken?"). I was more broken when I realized when I began dating after my break-up.

Second, studies support that dating quickly does help you get over ex's and improve your sanity. For example, "An empirical investigation into rebound relationships" (Brumbaugh/Fraley, 2015) says " Analyses indicated that people in new relationships were more confident in their desirability and had more resolution over their ex-partner. Among those in new relationships, the speed with which they began their relationship was associated with greater psychological and relational health."

Third, that study cuts both ways as dating quickly hurt your chances of reconciliation. Those chances may seem meager now, but firemann and I learned the hard way it can have an impact.

Fourth, you may lose this friend where enjoyment of each others' company is mutual if you date.

Friendship/companionship is great. I've been open to making new male and female friends since this started. I just met with a woman for the 2nd time yesterday for a walk in the woods.

[kto626]

Second, studies support that dating quickly does help you get over ex's. For example, "An empirical investigation into rebound relationships" (Brumbaugh/Fraley, 2015) says " Analyses indicated that people in new relationships were more confident in their desirability and had more resolution over their ex-partner. Among those in new relationships, the speed with which they began their relationship was associated with greater psychological and relational health."

I do think it would help me move forward. Obviously, this whole thing shot my confidence a bit. My friend had me sign up for one of these dating apps and I have received multiple "likes" and have reached out to a few. I was forthcoming on the app saying I am separated but no one knows the full extent. For me, knowing I am getting "likes" and a few asking to go for a hike, I feel more confident already. Mt W is dumb for what she did. I am successful, attractive, kind, and provided a good life. I haven't been believing that lately. I am finally realizing there are other women who will see that so it helps to meet them and feel it from them, I guess. Byt I don't want to be unethical or unfair.

Third, that study cuts both ways as dating quickly hurt your chances of reconciliation. Those chances may seem meager now, but firemann and I learned the hard way it did have an impact.

Honestly, that is a fear. I am DB'ing but you all now in my heart I still want her back if she is willing to do the work. I am beginning to make her coming back secondary to me wanting to be free from working about the outcome so I can solely focus on myself. Hence wanting to go on a walk to help me move forward. But I don't want to make it damage any possibility of my W doing the work to get back. It is hard to balance both, I guess.

CW, what negative impact did it have on you and fireman? They found out and it stopped your chances of reconciliation?

Like CW and LH said, if I make it just a walk, just to socialize, then maybe there is no harm. These social distancing times make it very hard to GAL and socialize so maybe I will take the opportunity but keep it as a friendship for now. However, both the women I am speaking to are putting on a full-court press so I need to be careful.

[Traveler]

CW, what negative impact did it have on you and fireman? They found out and it stopped your chances of reconciliation?

With firemann, if I recall correctly, upon his initial dating she "discovered" an extra car in his driveway and used it as a wedge against reconciliation and as something to highlight to the kids as a reason for D. I believe she'd already had a secret EA, but I think neither he nor the kids knew it at the time.

With my g/f, upon reconciliation, it was a wedge. She cried, felt jealous, always imagining me as hers alone. When she says "I've only done X with you", I have to say "You're the first person I've done X with." Certain places and activities are "tainted". That's not to say it was wrong. I'm undecided. I learned some problems were mine that I'd attributed to ex's. My IC points out all the ways it led me back to my ex.

[LH19]

K,

Dating apps and external validation is not the way through my friend. You need to do the hard work.

Your w is no where near ready to give up her A and do the hard work.

[Traveler]

External validation is not the way through my friend. You need to do the hard work.

Learning to NOT need external validation was the most important change I made during my solo time.

I remember when I used Tinder just to hear positive affirmations.

[kto626]

LH, what work could I be doing? I'm working out a lot, eating well, reading, going to IC (phone at the moment), and going for a lot of walks with the dog. What she's can I do besides that?

And CW, I'm just using an app as an escape and talking to women. Nothing inappropriate, just small talk. But going for a hike may lead to other advances so I need to be careful.

[LH19]

K,

Those are all great things but you need to learn to be alone, to love and respect yourself and then the rest will fall in to place.

[MrBrside]

K,

Those are all great things but you need to learn to be alone, to love and respect yourself and then the rest will fall in to place.

THIS...

In your posts you come across as a needy male.

This is not attractive to the healthy females out there..

I say healthy as there are a lot of damaged / unhealthy people who will happily latch on to a fixer / insecure / needy male... The needy male will fall in love and ignore all the red flags.. The damaged female proceeds to suck him dry..
It doesn’t end well.

KTO.. you really need to sort your head out before bringing another human into your world.

[neffer]

K,

Those are all great things but you need to learn to be alone, to love and respect yourself and then the rest will fall in to place.

We must learn to love ourselves. It comes with time and patience. Remember Cadet´s welcome post: use your time wisely.

Patience, self-growth. Emotional health, self-awareness, wisdom.

It´s a marathon, we must head to one direction. Take the time to do the walk.

[kto626]

LH:

Those are all great things but you need to learn to be alone, to love and respect yourself and then the rest will fall in to place.

That makes sense. Learn to be alone while doing all the things I already am. Thanks, LH.


MrBside:

In your posts you come across as a needy male.

I would agree that right now that I am since BD. Before that, I really wasn't needy at all. This process has made me needier I guess because I was so emotional. I am not nearly as emotional as I was before. My rose-colored glasses aren't shattered but I do see a crack in the lens.

Neffer:

We must learn to love ourselves. It comes with time and patience. Remember Cadet´s welcome post: use your time wisely.

Patience, self-growth. Emotional health, self-awareness, wisdom.

It´s a marathon, we must head to one direction. Take the time to do the walk.

Thank you, neffer. I do need to learn to love myself again. Time and patience are hard for me but I do understand that it isn't going to happen fast. Excellent advice. Thank you.

[kto626]

I spoke to the W today regarding the logistics of the workweek. Quickly, she brought up that she started going to IC again. She asked me why I haven't asked if she has been going. I told her that I don't have any questions for her. She didn't know how to respond. So she then brought up that she grabbed a few masks and gloves for me and my D. I simply said thank you (they may come in handy). Then she asked if I wanted a haircut. I told her not right now. She said, your hair is getting long and I am trying to help you. I asked her what she was doing...why do you think you need to help me? She said, you are my husband and I want to support you. She said that she still cares for me whether I believe her or not. To get off the subject, I told her I would let her know about the haircut (I know not the best response).

Towards the end of the call, she said how she said she knows I want an email from her (the one she was going to write 5 weeks...eye roll). I told her that I don't want anything from her. I told her she can do whatever she wants with her life and I am now focusing on me and being a better person for myself and my D. She said she has stuff that is written down and then she asked, why are we doing this dance? I said that I am not dancing...that marriage is between 2 people and not 3 so I am removing myself from the situation. She asked if we could be more honest with each other and not try to outmaneuver each other (I think she is referring to me go little contact, not answering unimportant texts, and certainly not chasing her anymore). I said I have been honest. That she should remember who wasn't honest and why we are where we are. She replied you don't think I know that? You don't think I know I f"d up? I let that be...

At the end of the call, she maneuvered back to the Coronavirus and how stressed she is at work from it. I validated and said I can imagine that it is very stressful. She explained her stress and said I understand you are under stress too. That she texts my mother every day asking about my grandmother. I said I appreciate that you care to check in to see how she is. She said that she goes to work, home and sometimes the store and sees no one else (I think she was throwing this in there to try to tell me she isn't seeing him). I do believe she isn't at this time due to the virus but she doesn't deny talking to him....still in the A. She then asked about the haircut again and I said I will let her know. That was pretty much it...

I know she is still a WW but I have seen her chasing me more. She seemed genuine on the phone saying she still cares for me...but I am trying not to believe her because I know words are words. But behaviorally, going to IC again is a solid step. Many steps for her to still make, but she did make a step.

I know it is meaningless so I went for a looooong walk with the dog and told myself, be present and don't think of the outcome/future as it is out of my control.

Any feedback or insight? Thanks again, everyone.

[sandi2]

And CW, I'm just using an app as an escape and talking to women.

It is a DATING site! Make all the excuses you want......but at the end of the day, those women are there b/c they are looking for someone to date. Why must you find an escape by talking to women???

Words of affirmation, validation, ego food, escapism, fantasizing .......call it what you will, but that is exactly how an EA started for me.

Now explain to me how you can kick your W out of the house for contacting OM, but it's okay for you to talk to women on a dating site. I laughed when you said there was nothing inappropriate. The fact that it is a dating site, period, seems inappropriate for a married man who claims he wants to save his M.

You are already talking about meeting to walk the dogs or go hiking, which means you want to explore beyond just talking. Listen, I get the whole confidence builder thing, but that's one of the hidden dangers and how easily it turns into an EA/PA. Your W is in contact with OM, b/c of how good it makes her feel.

Just seems a bit hypocritical.

[kto626]

Sandi, you are totally right. Thank you, I needed that. It's selfish and misguided at best. Focus on me. LH said, learn to be alone...I've thought about that a lot. Ultimately, that's the goal. Be content with yourself and that will take time to adjust to but will be worth it when I get there.

[LH19]

I know she is still a WW but I have seen her chasing me more. She seemed genuine on the phone saying she still cares for me...but I am trying not to believe her because I know words are words. But behaviorally, going to IC again is a solid step. Many steps for her to still make, but she did make a step.

Any feedback or insight? Thanks again, everyone.

K,

You’re a smart guy but here is where you get tripped up. She saying she still cares about you is the same as her saying I love you but I’m not in love with you. What you call chasing is temp checking and cake eating. All apart of the WW script.

Lastly you view IC as a step in the right direction. How will you feel when her IC validates her feelings that she’s not happy being married to you and advises her that to be happy that divorce is the best option? Will you consider that a step in the right direction?

Look I know your looking for hope and you should have hope but right now I’m afraid nothing has changed and will change for a really long time.

[Mumin]

I know she is still a WW but I have seen her chasing me more. She seemed genuine on the phone saying she still cares for me...but I am trying not to believe her because I know words are words. But behaviorally, going to IC again is a solid step. Many steps for her to still make, but she did make a step.

LH already said it.
But I will enforce. She is not chasing you.
My W told me she still loves me (and just like you I heard she ment it) one month before confessing she is "seeing" OM.
She is most likely going to IC to handle her own stress and feelings. Do not see it as a "solid step" towards you. Very dangerous waters!

[kto626]

The email came last night. I don't know how to respond. I see some hope, but I bet you don't. I see some cake eating but I see a somewhat remorseful apology. My W is someone who struggles to communicate unless it is in writing.



So I have been thinking a lot about everything. There are lots of things I want to say and need to say.

The first thing would be is that I am truly sorry for the hurt that I have caused. I know I cannot take any of it back and I know you will hurt for a long time. This was never my intention. I know that a sorry wont take any pain away but I want you to know I am. Sorry is never going to take the pain away but I want you to know I truly am. I wish I could take what I did back knowing how hurt I made you and (our D).

I lacked in many things in this relationship. I think I did not communicate well with my feelings and emotions until it was too late hence my poor decisions.

I also did not take in to consideration your feelings and emotions on certain things especially when it came to going out. I was very selfish.

I think I could have been better at planning time for just us two especially after having (our D). It is so hard to have a relationship and raise a child and work full time and I could not manage it all or felt very overwhelmed with it all that I just gave up on the effort. You know I have never been good at this and that is not ok. I need to put way more effort into planning and being proactive otherwise I will never be successful in life.

I have kept stuff internally for so many years that I just figured why deal with it now. Knowing that I wish I could have dealt with it all better. I know that is not fair to you and I realize that and that's why I am trying to make you aware now.

I know you have been waiting for along couple weeks, months or even years for this email but you know how hard it is for me to express my feelings and that's unfortunate and most of the reason we are at where we are.

I am sorry for arguing with you last night and it was not appropriate but you also need to realize how stressful life is for all of us with this Corona stuff, our situation and child care. It absolutely infuriates me how you can look at me and say "figure it out" when I have (our D). You know what I do for a job as a nurse and with all this stuff going on lately you are not supporting me at all if you say you will not help. What would you like me to do? Hire a babysitter or my mom etc and expose her potentially? This is what you want this to come to? It feels like you're being selfish of being angry at me and taking it out on (our D). I am not saying that's the case that's just how I feel about the situation that happened.

I know you are beyond upset about (grandmother). I am so heartbroken for all of you. I pray every night since I knew. I know this isn't helping anything we are going through and no matter what I do still love you and care about you and your family. I love you and always will. I know I hurt you more than anything in the world and I wish I could truly take it away along with all the other worries we have going on currently.

I offer to come over to hang with (our D), cut your hair, get you wipes/gloves/mask from work all because I still want to make sure you are ok not just for (our D) but for you. I know you don't want to hear all that but I do love you for you and you are not the reason for all of this but I am.

I am and have always just struggled with my feelings and I let things build up over time and I get anger and resentment and it ruins everything. I just need some space and time to figure me out (which I know you have given me and now with all the corona [censored] its not helping any situation only making it worse) and I am not asking for you to wait around or put your life on hold I am just telling you what I need to do for me. I am sorry and I know you wont wait forever and I get that and I am not asking you to just simply telling you how I feel. I have come to terms with that and with your actions and emotions towards me. I know what you want from me. I know you are moving on and I don't blame you. I am just really having a hard time and I need to just find me. I have lost me and cant seem to find it at all.

I am so proud of you for the things you have changed since this all happened. Smoking and making healthier options for you is beyond amazing. I hope you made those changes for you. I worry about you and I just wish I could take away what I did. I never intended to hurt you but I know I did. I am so so sorry (KTO). I am struggling a lot as well. Don't think I don't have my bad days, my crying days or my depressed days. Those days are most of the time to be truthful lately. I know its not a pity party I am just being honest.

I am going back to counseling finally after missing it for a couple weeks because of Corona and I had a good session this week and have another one planned next week. I know I need to try harder and I have been saying that for years. I agree and I have to be about it and not just talk. I am so sick of fighting and wish we could just have talks without arguing and that seems to be few and far between and I know I am guilty of that. I just get so frustrated and feel like you still want to tell me how and what to feel. You also don't ask me things and just assume and that bothers me so much. Please ask me and don't assume. I know you don't owe me a response from this as I know this is way long over due but if you would like to respond ok.



Thoughts? Hit me with it.

[Traveler]

Hi Kto626,

I agree, I see remorse. I see a woman who's sorry she used cheating to get where she is now, who's not sure what she wants long-term.. Plan A (other men).. or Plan B (you), who wants space from you except for you to solve childcare for her. It's unclear if she wants space from OM. She cares about you, probably always will, which is not the same as wanting to be with you or being in-love with you.

What would you like me to do? Hire a babysitter or my mom etc and expose her potentially?

How worried are you about your ex-wife exposing your D to her mom or a babysitter? (I assume her mom can decide for herself whether or not to watch your kid and how to best protect herself.)

I am so sick of fighting and wish we could just have talks without arguing and that seems to be few and far between and I know I am guilty of that. I just get so frustrated and feel like you still want to tell me how and what to feel.

These are good 180s to strive for if any part of them rings true. Fighting, arguing, and controlling others is rarely necessary and aren't good relationship patterns.

[LH19]

K,

You knew this was coming.

First off to me there is a difference between being sorry and showing remorse. I think the majority of WWs are sorry that this is happening. I think very little show remorse until way down the road when they understand the damage that was done.

As for the letter this is what I read:

I’m truly sorry for the hurt I caused you. I was not perfect in the relationship and made mistakes. I was not happy in the marriage but I never voiced my unhappiness. I should of communicated better but instead I sought happiness with another man. How dare you not support me when I am having an affair with another man.

I know you are upset about your grandmother and I love you but I’m not in love with you so I’m not ending things with the om right now.

I want to come over and eat some cake and while doing so I will even cut your hair for you. It’s not you it’s me that’s the problem.

I built up anger and resentment over the years from all the things you did wrong in the relationship. I need time and space to see if the new guy is long term relationship material but I’m not asking you to be plan B. Though your actions dictate that you are willing to be plan B.

The changes that you are making are great but sorry it’s too little to late right now. I wish I could undo what I did but since I can’t I’m just going to see where this goes with OM. I’m sad sometimes for breaking up the family but everyone will get over it.

I’m going to counseling and I know I need to try harder because marriage is hard but I really don’t feel like it so I’m gonna see where things go with om. I’m sick of fighting and arguing because you won’t see things my way and you don’t understand me.

I know you don’t owe me anything but I’m really hoping you wait around until I see if it works out with OM.

My response would be:

Thank you for the email. I really have some thinking to do.

[kto626]

At what point do I allow her to come over to the house to be a family for a few hours? Through this crazy time of social distancing I think it may be good for all of us.

[LH19]

As soon as you take the cake out of the oven.

[kto626]

CW:

Originally Posted by "Letter"
What would you like me to do? Hire a babysitter or my mom etc and expose her potentially?

How worried are you about your ex-wife exposing your D to her mom or a babysitter? (I assume her mom can decide for herself whether or not to watch your kid and how to best protect herself.)

Her mom works in a nursing home and continues to work through all of this. So it probably isn't a good idea. A babysitter, I don't know about that but it also probably isn't good. My D has an autoimmune deficiency so we need to take extra care.

My W knows I have offered to take her when she needs to go into the office. If she is working from home, then she needs to take care of our D on her days...it is no different than me working from home. So all of that talk in her letter is old news...probably b/c it took her 5 weeks to write it. Honestly, I am just as worried my W bringing Corona home to my D and therefore, me too. But when I brought his up she stated that she is full protective gear. Also, she doesn't work with Corona patients, only pediatric non-sick issues (immunizations and physicals). But she uses Corona as a reason for not being able to talk or do anything because she so stressed. I don't doubt she is stressed but she is hiding behind Corona as to why she is really stressed.

I am so sick of fighting and wish we could just have talks without arguing and that seems to be few and far between and I know I am guilty of that. I just get so frustrated and feel like you still want to tell me how and what to feel.

These are good 180s to strive for if any part of them rings true. Fighting, arguing, and controlling others is rarely necessary and aren't good relationship patterns.

The only arguments have been about me kicking her out 2 weeks ago when she was hanging out with us (cake eating) and I asked if she still was in contact with the OM. When she said she was still talking to him, I told her to leave. She became explosive; "I hate you. I am going to punch you in the face, etc. etc." She is the one who argues I stand my ground on my expectations. She wants me to allow her back to the house and pretend like everything is fine while she still talks to the OM? No, that will not happen.

I do see some progress in her ability to show remorse. And even though I want our family to be able to spend a few hours with each other, I know I am inviting her to eat cake (thanks LH). But doing this alone now for weeks is eating at me. I thought maybe with a little progress, I could give in a little. But I guess not.

[LH19]

K,

I thought I was clear but I’ll repeat it again. Your W is not showing remorse. Right out of google “it means that your conscience is working on you, your past actions are biting you back and making you feel very regretful”. Don’t you think at that point she would end the affair and beg for forgiveness?

Your has repeatedly said f you, it’s over and she’s going to punch you in the face and you view this as progress wtf? You need time and space from her.

I know you want to see progress but right now it’s progress to not make matters worse.

[MrBrside]

I'm going to chip in here and say that if you want to move on with your life, start listening to LH19.

And more importantly - Try and stop thinking emotionally - its harming you.

Your WW is acting on emotion - Look where she is.

A lot of the stuff you have writen here / your actions - emotion..

I mean joing dating sites etc - Really - Your vision is so off centre its crazy.

You need to take a step back, breath and not make any decissions without thinking about it, and even after you have thought about it, think again. - and again

I do see some progress in her ability to show remorse. And even though I want our family to be able to spend a few hours with each other, I know I am inviting her to eat cake (thanks LH). But doing this alone now for weeks is eating at me

You see what she wants you to see.. The same way some snakes play dead to lure in their pray.

Doing this for weeks ? - again, you are thinking with emotion and it isnt helping you..

More self improvement, become less needy and start to try and think with logic...

Maybe make a list of the qualities you would like to see in yourself - then starting working on them..

I'd start with less needy, less emotional, less reactive.

[LH19]

K,

I don’t want you to think Briside are picking on you because we are not we are trying to help you. We have been in the trenches and I have seen hundreds of battles fought on this battle field. Right now you can’t see the forest for the trees because you’re in to deep.

You have a very disrespectful WW on your hands and IMO the best way to handle them is with tough love. Like BS said now is the time to work on yourself and get really comfortable being alone. You don’t realize how important that is right now. I also agree with BS that your a smart guy but right now you are being controlled by your emotions. Unless you learn to have infinite patience you mine as well file for D right now. You’re in a marathon right now and you just past the quarter mile. You have the gift of time so use it wisely.

[kto626]

BrSide:

Try and stop thinking emotionally - its harming you.

I agree I am acting on emotion. Or should I say, I am writing on this board based on emotion. I am not acting on the things I post here.

I mean joing dating sites etc - Really - Your vision is so off centre its crazy.

Okay, good point. That was an emotional move.

You need to take a step back, breath and not make any decissions without thinking about it, and even after you have thought about it, think again. - and again

Okay. That is also good advice I need to listen to.

LH:

You have a very disrespectful WW on your hands and IMO the best way to handle them is with tough love. Like BS said now is the time to work on yourself and get really comfortable being alone. You don’t realize how important that is right now. I also agree with BS that your a smart guy but right now you are being controlled by your emotions. Unless you learn to have infinite patience you mine as well file for D right now. You’re in a marathon right now and you just past the quarter mile. You have the gift of time so use it wisely.

I hear you. I do. And honestly, I have been good about ending communication. I have not reached out to her unless I absolutely necessary b/c of my daughter. Being alone is an understatement. With social distancing, I am really, really alone. I think that is why I am having a hard time letting her go to focus on me. Because my mind has A LOT of time to wander. Being able to GAL with friends would give me something to look forward to...I don't have that.

Thank you both for your support. I don't think you re picking on me at all. And LH, you are right, I am in deep but I don't want to be.

[MrBrside]

I feel i should also add -

These improvements ( your WW mentioned smoking and healthier lifesytle ) - these arent just to woo WW back or a short term fix - These should be life changing and permenant - You are doing these for YOU, not WW or to impress / influence WW - Do whats best for YOU, but make it lifelong - One of the biggest things i have learnt on my journey is complaisance - its not attractive and probably a reason why a lot of partners start to look elsewhere. Work on a better you - you have the gift of time. Once you have healed, are a stronger and more confident you, carry on to self improve - dont slip or get complaisAnt

[kto626]

MrBrsde, for many years I was complacent smoking pot with a few buddies at home. My W would go out and I would stay home while my D slept. At first, I thought, this is perfect. I stay home with the boys, my W goes out to the bar with her girlfriends. But then this past year I noticed she was getting dressed up, doing her makeup, and taking a long time getting ready. Now I know why. I said this to her over and over, who was she getting dolled up for? This would lead to fights and she would claim I was controlling her. I never tried to control her, I just would ask why, or why don't you hang at home tonight and we watch a movie? But now I know I was too late. My complacencies provided the space between us to grow so another man could come between us. Let me be clear, SHE had the affair and I'm not to blame for that. But I contributed to a failing marriage. But I don't believe the marriage was dead, it was going the wrong way. But it will never excuse what she did. Never.

I also know I was complacent in my relationship. I blame pot for a lot of this. So I stopped on BD. At first it was because of the anxiety I was now having. So then I joined a gym and would exercise a lot. Admittedly, it was to look better to get my W back. However, that quickly changed. I realized I liked how I was feeling after exercising. I knew pot made me lazy so I stuck with not going back to it. Exercising cut the anxiety and made me feel productive. It's more difficult now not being able to go to the gym but I still run on the treadmill 3-4 days a week.

Since then I have lost 20 lbs (a lot from not eating at the beginning). But I've made heartier choices for myself. Sure, I want to look good for someone else, including my W. But the reason I'm doing it is for me. It has become part of my routine.

My W was always the one working out but now she has gained wait since BD. I would never say it, but she has. Roles have reversed in some ways. My guess is she is very stressed. I think she is upset with how I have lost weight. Her mother, friends, everyone point it out. When I comes up around my W she makes sarcastic comments about how Ive lost weight and she wishes she could.

[sandi2]

The first thing would be is that I am truly sorry for the hurt that I have caused. I know I cannot take any of it back and I know you will hurt for a long time. This was never my intention.type apologies that mean nothing.

Nowhere in her letter does she mention her affair, or the OM.

She is not remorseful. She goes out of her way to make sure her on-going affair, OM, lies/deceit, betrayal, etc., is not specifically mentioned.

She is tired of living with the consequences of her choices. She's wanting to slitter under the door, by giving an umbrella apology.

Has your IC/MC ever said you show codependency traits?

[kto626]

Sandi, my IC hasn't said that but I'm guessing I'm co-dependent. I'm guessing the only way to beat that is by being alone.

Btw, my W told me today again she was sorry. She also said she's trying to give up the OM but it's hard. I just validated and said I can appreciate the fact that it is.

At the very least, I see slight progress. But I know there is a long way to go. She is totally to slither under the door. But I've told her no.

[Believe6]

Kto626, It's good that you are taking care of yourself. Working out helps so much. I've lost 31 lbs and I didn't have that much to lose. I am the smallest I've been in decades. But now, like you, I am eating healthier and working out to make sure it is a habit and something I can maintain.

It's good that you continue to have your boundaries and make sure you know clearly what you want before you even let her thing she can slither under the door. They need to get themselves worked out first. Keep taking care of yourself and your D. That's your priority. Blessings

[sandi2]

Btw, my W told me today again she was sorry. She also said she's trying to give up the OM but it's hard.

It doesn't matter how many times she says she is sorry. She needs to tell you what she is sorry about.

Trying to give up OM.......? What does that mean? She used to text him XXXX times per day, but has cut back to XXX? That's not good enough. She has to go cold turkey. She can't taper off an addiction.

I just validated and said I can appreciate the fact that it is.

You men and your NGS! This is not the time to get soft. In her wayward mindset, that's how she'll see it.

At the very least, I see slight progress.

Where? I see a WW who is tossing out a few apologies (without specifying what she did wrong), and then adds that she's trying to give up OM.....but it's hard. So.....none of it means a thing! When she gets serious, you'll know it.

Have you ever had someone give a backhanded apology? "If I've done something to offend you, then I apologize". It has zero value. It's worthless, if they don't name the offense. Google backhanded apologies.

[kto626]

Trying to give up OM.......? What does that mean? She used to text him XXXX times per day, but has cut back to XXX? That's not good enough. She has to go cold turkey. She can't taper off an addiction.

I realize that. And that is why when she came over to take the dog for a walk and asked if I wanted her to work over at my house to help with our D, I said no, you know where I stand on that. She knows I will not accept contact with the OM.

Quote
I just validated and said I can appreciate the fact that it is.


tired You men and your NGS! This is not the time to get soft. In her wayward mindset, that's how she'll see it.

What should I have said?

Quote
At the very least, I see slight progress.


Where? I see a WW who is tossing out a few apologies (without specifying what she did wrong), and then adds that she's trying to give up OM.....but it's hard. So.....none of it means a thing! When she gets serious, you'll know it.

I see progress because she has started IC and wrote a semi-good letter. It isn't perfect, but it is okay. I spoke with my IC who knows my W well from months of MC before and after BD, and he said the following about everything:

Based on knowing my wife and how guarded, defensive and f*ed up in the head right now:

-Graded the letter a B+. He said she does seem sorry but never mentions the OM or affair. She isn't there yet but does see her starting to turn a little. That it is a good sign she wrote it, he does believe she is sorry, but she hasn't apologized completely yet.

- By her saying she is trying to give him up is a sign, but not one I should even read into.

-He said my W is extremely insecure, probably due to her traumatic upbringing, so now she wants to see if it will work with me because she knows it is the right thing to do but she wants to keep the OM there in case it doesn't. He doesn't believe it is the other way around anymore due to some of the things she has said. Specifically, the other day when she told me she is scared to make it work with me because she is afraid I will tell her how to feel. She is afraid it will fail with me.

-He thinks her head is so f*ed up. That her head is spinning. She knows what is the right thing to do but doesn't know how to get there. So he is very happy she started IC to see if she can figure it out.

-When I mentioned filing for D, he said no way you aren't there. You haven't given this long enough of a chance to see f she will do the work necessary. He told me what I am doing; exercising, reading, going for walks, being in IC spending time with my D is the work I need to do. He told me to wait 4-6 months from the letter (April 1st).

[LH19]

K,

I think it's really simple. Keep doing what you're doing including sticking to your boundaries. Keep your expectations at zero. You are definitely not plan A you are still plan B. I'll give her letter a F for fuching bs.

You have the gift of time so use it wisely.

[kto626]

My W texted me tidal saying " I have told him I want to focus on my family, myself, my work, and my daughter. I know it's not everything you want but I'm trying."

H: what do you mean everything I want? Have you ended contact and deleted him from all social media?

W: everything you want meaning I still have work to do on myself in IC. And I'm drafting how to end contact with my IC but I'm going to do that.

H: you know that needs to happen. Otherwise nothing has changed.

W: I understand


I will ask to see what they write to send him and watch her send it.

[LH19]

K,

The good:
It’s a step in the right direction if she follows through with actions.

The bad:
I don’t like her using the word trying. Unless she is doing this because she wants to then you may be just delaying the outcome.

It’s going to take a lot of work and infinite patience.

[LovingIt]

@kto626 -

Good luck. You have a kid, so I'm trying to not be as harsh, and rooting for you to succeed.

For reference, my WW / STBXW called me one night drunk crying and asking to R. She said she would quit her job, etc... since she works with OM. She called from OM's place, while she is living with OM, and was lying to me on the phone about it. She hid and lied about this fact for months thinking I'm stupid to know the facts. I didn't take the bait.

We also did the "trying" dance for 3 months, but everyday it was just me lies everyday until she finally moved out.

So believe actions, not words.

[Mumin]

So believe actions, not words.

So true!

[kto626]

LovingIt: I appreciate your support. My W was not drunk when she said this. But I do realize these are just words and not behaviors. So I have held my boundaries and have not contacted her since she told me she told the OM that's she going to focus on her family, herself, her work, and her D. She did she is going to draft a finality statement with her IC. I have no idea if that has happened and I'm not going to ask (right, I shouldn't ask???). Her behaviors are showing me she wants to focus on the family. But I know withdrawals are coming. She is not moving back into my house. I told her that. There is still too much work to be done. And right now, all she has done (supposedly) is tell him she's focusing on the family.

Am I doing the right thing by sitting back and waiting for her to tell me what is going on? I told her I need proof that NC has happened. I told her I will be looking through all of her social media accounts to make sure he is gone (I have friends and family who also have ways to see he is gone from social media).

I spoke to my IC and he said when we begin MC I can ask for more proof and set up expectations with her that allows me access to her phone/accounts. I know a lot of you say that happens first but I would prefer it done with the MC too. My hope is we start MC soon after she tells me contact is over.

So when she comes to me and says she's ended contact:
1. Prove it
2. Let me see your phone
3. Go to MC and set up expectations moving forward.
4. She continues IC (which she has now gone to a few weeks in a row).

[LH19]

K,

This time is extremely important and as you have been following OS2’s thread you know that this could be a false start. You just need to hold your ground until you start seeing some actions from her. She has to drive the bus. I have a feeling by your post that this is going to be difficult and you are going to try to force it.

You really need to temper your expectations right now. In the early part of my situation my ex wanted to try again because she felt it was the right thing to do not because she wanted to. It just prolonged the inevitable.

[kto626]

LH: I'm not going to force it. I told her what needs to happen so I'll just sit back and wait. I told her clearly NC. Nothing changes until then.

[Traveler]

Hi Kto626,

Just stopped by to say I'm rooting for you. You've been brave keeping (reasonable) terms front and center--if she wants to return, she needs to drop the OM, be transparent, and work on the relationship.

So many branch points--in another situation there was a pause between dropping OM/OW and being ready to work on the relationship, many where reconciliation was just "going through the motions", some where OM1 not being excited enough was simply followed by OM2, OM3, and OM4.

If she returns, a long road ahead. Keep that good head on your shoulders.

[sandi2]

Am I doing the right thing by sitting back and waiting for her to tell me what is going on? I told her I need proof that NC has happened. I told her I will be looking through all of her social media accounts to make sure he is gone (I have friends and family who also have ways to see he is gone from social media).

The thing to have done is tell her you need her to be transparent. You don't tell her you are going to be searching through social media, have family and friends on the lookout, etc. to see if OM is really gone. The burden of proof is on her. However, the transparency plan is your design. Make sense? She doesn't get to decide how much she reveals, or when or anything else. It's your plan.....your call. If she asks what kind of transparency you need, then you can tell her you need all her passwords to her accounts (email, SM, phone activity, etc.) . Now, remember, she is the cheater, not you. If she starts talking about it being an invasion of privacy, I want you to realize she's really talking about invasion of secrecy. Why should she need privacy from her H, unless she doesn't want him knowing something. The point of transparency is two fold, IMHO. She violated her wedding vows, and betrayed your trust......so you can't simply trust her at her word. We call it trust and verify, but that is basically following a transparency plan. Speaking as a former WW, transparency helped me stay on the straight & narrow road throughout my withdrawals. I knew my H was checking. I didn't know when......but I knew he was checking. If she is serious about committing to the MR, she should agree to it. She doesn't have to like it........just agree to do it.

The reason I stress she agrees to transparency, is b/c it gives you free reign to look at her messages whenever you decide. Maybe I'm playing on words, but if she agrees, then it's not snooping.........it's verifying. And should she blow up about something you have to confront her about, you can remind her about the agreement. You don't verify every day, nor do you ask her to let you see..........unless she has her phone glued to her hip, then that may present a problem. (We can discuss this part more later, if you want.)

If she tries to make this transparency a two-way thing, saying you'll need to be transparent, also..........don't get pulled into that trap. I've seen too many LBH's so eager to get their cheater W back, that they put themselves in the same category as the WW......and that's the wrong move. "Okay honey, if will make you feel better, I'll show you all of my text messages, too". Noooooo! You would be taking away the work she needs to do to recover from her wayward behavior. The LBH can't make it too easy for her to come back, b/c if she doesn't do the work, he'll face this crisis again. So, don't agree to do the same work (transparency) as required of the cheating spouse. Your work and her work won't be exactly the same across the board. Ending all contact with OM and being transparent, is part of her work Don't forget that you must see everything from the viewpoint of getting respect from her. She's not going to respect you by putting you in wayward category alongside of her. Don't argue about it, if she protests. Those are a couple of your terms to reconciliation. She can take it or leave it. She doesn't get to call the shots about reconciliation. She has the right to agree or disagree, but she doesn't have the right to call the terms. All this other stuff, such as living a healthier lifestyle, is secondary, IMHO. She will try to distract you away from the primary issue, by bringing up her complaints about you/MR. None of that other stuff needs to be discussed, until she agrees to stop all forms of contact with OM. The other issues within the MR can be discussed later, maybe in MC.

As for your WW getting her IC to help her draft a letter to OM? Never heard of it! The betrayed H should be the one to help his cheating W draft a letter to the male predator. Wouldn't you agree?

I spoke to my IC and he said when we begin MC I can ask for more proof and set up expectations with her that allows me access to her phone/accounts. I know a lot of you say that happens first but I would prefer it done with the MC too. My hope is we start MC soon after she tells me contact is over.

How can you have it both ways? It seems to me that you are really seeing the IC for MC. It's rare for any counselor to align with the advice you receive here. Therapists don't even agree with each other, as well as in any other profession. So, I guess you'll have to decide. However, I just have to ask.......how are you going to reconcile if your boundary was NC with OM? Is your IC saying you are suppose to trust the word of a liar and cheater? Seriously? That's the problem. She can't be trusted to NC with OM, especially right after ending things with him, b/c withdrawals begin immediately. That's why a plan has to be in place.

Frankly, I think you don't know what to do and just want MC to fix things. That's understandable......but let me share a personal experience I had with a highly recommended therapist in this area. So, I go into her office and tell her some of my very wayward behavior (to put it nicely) over the Internet with other men (yes, you heard me right). Know how she responded? "Oh, that's okay. You've done NOTHING WRONG! Don't beat yourself up about it". Now, I was wayward, but I wasn't stupid.......I knew I was doing plenty that was wrong. I knew I had lied, betrayed, cheated, disrespected my H/M, conducted myself very inappropriately, etc. And, this highly recommended therapist was telling me it was okay and I had done nothing wrong? Maybe she was trying to win my trust, IDK, but she was talking to a gal who had been raised on "thou shalt and shalt not". So anyway, I started telling her more juicy details, b/c she was validating everything that came out of my mouth. I wondered at what point she would stop acting as if we were a pair of teenage girls giggling over my latest escapades behind my H's back.......and start being real with me. I didn't need someone encouraging my fantasies. I needed someone to talk straight to me, and that's what I was getting on the DB board......straight, harsh truth. I was wayward, and knew I was wayward. I had enough sense to realize this therapist wasn't for me, and I left and didn't go back. The board became my therapy, and I was here every night until I couldn't hold my eyes open. I would go to work the next morning, then come right back to the board in the evenings. I'm not saying that would work for everyone. I'm saying that just b/c your WW is seeing an IC or decides to attend MC, doesn't mean it's going to fix her. Hopefully, it will help with whatever issues were caused in her past, if nothing else. I hope both of you will be helped, I really do. I encourage couples to find a good therapist who specializes in couples healing from an affair. You just have to know their title doesn't guarantee your success. And, sometimes, you have to shop around to find the right therapist. Anyway, I didn't mean to get so long winded on that subject.

So when she comes to me and says she's ended contact:
1. Prove it
2. Let me see your phone
3. Go to MC and set up expectations moving forward.
4. She continues IC (which she has now gone to a few weeks in a row).

No, don't say #1 & #2 like that, b/c it sounds as if she will have to show you proof only once. Don't use the words "prove it". Don't tell her to show you her phone, like it's one time. Tell her you need her to agree to your transparency plan. Give all passwords, etc. Yes to #3 & #4, as long as the IC & MC aren't conflicting.

I'm going to close this post and continue on another one.

[kto626]

CWarrior: Thank you for your kind words and support.

If she returns, a long road ahead. Keep that good head on your shoulders.

Even if she ends contact, continues IC and MC, I have decided she will not be moving back in for a while. She is going to have to earn that. However, if she does the work we all agree on, then I will spend time with her. Hell, I want to spend time with her and you all know that. I just want to redraw my boundaries a bit. I won't pursue but I will be available to her (if that makes sense)?

But she still needs to go NC. Just because she is saying she will doesn't mean anything. I will say she is no longer blaming me or angry with me. Sandi mentioned that being a sign and I have to agree. My W has a totally different temperament, although, the only interaction has been about our D. But even that led to fighting before.

[sandi2]

Here I go again. But first, I wanted to ask how your grandmother is doing. This self-quarantine business has been hard on so many people. I feel so sorry for families who can't work from home and don't know how they will survive b/c their jobs have shut down.....or they have no place to stay. When we look at the people around the world who are suffering more than us......it helps put things in perspective. My grandmother use to say, "I was sad I didn't have any shoes, until I saw a man who didn't have any feet."


So, getting back to a previous post I wanted to address.

Quote
Trying to give up OM.......? What does that mean? She used to text him XXXX times per day, but has cut back to XXX? That's not good enough. She has to go cold turkey. She can't taper off an addiction.

I realize that. And that is why when she came over to take the dog for a walk and asked if I wanted her to work over at my house to help with our D, I said no, you know where I stand on that. She knows I will not accept contact with the OM.

Okay, but you had just asked in a previous post at what point can she come over for a few hours "as a family". You can't have it both ways. She doesn't get to come over and play happy family for an hour or two......as long as she's still contacting OM. You seem to go back & forth on this.

Quote
I just validated and said I can appreciate the fact that it is.

You men and your NGS! This is not the time to get soft. In her wayward mindset, that's how she'll see it.

What should I have said?

Okay, let's talk about validating a wayward W. As Wonka points out in her thread on validation, it is a "learned skill". To be very honest, I get frustrated with some LBH's who want to validate everything the WW says......but they don't want to stand up to her, or call her out when she's disrespecting him. I'm not saying you haven't stood up to your WW, I'm speaking in general terms. Naturally, most LBH's of WW's want to validate........b/c the majority of them have NGS, and it's the nice-guy thing to do! At least, that's how I believe he appears to his WW. (It's another one of the differences in how to approach a WAW and how to address the WW. In most cases I've read, the LBH of a WAW is usually not the nice-guy type we see in WW cases.)

It's hard to get most of the H's here to actually say how they validated. They say, "I just validated her". When it comes to WW's, I think the safest route in validating, is to make eye contact, and (at best) nod your head to indicate you are listening......not that you are agreeing, if that makes sense. Wonka has given many good examples to use, but obviously, people read it through different eyes.

I suppose most everyone wants to be heard and have their feelings validated. The problem lies in the WW's mindset toward her LBH. She doesn't respect him as her H, and she's not sexually attracted to him. In many cases, she feels they are like blood relatives......or roommates. She doesn't want to hurt him, but she finds the OM more exciting. You get my point.

Due to the wayward mindset she has developed, the LBH has to be very careful about the words he chooses to validate his WW. Like I remind you, she has to see him from a point of respect. So, if you sound as if you are being emphatic with her wayward feelings, conduct, or mindset.........she's going to zap you into the friend zone so fast it will make your head spin. That means she isn't interested in being intimate with you. Validation doesn't mean you agree with her........but let me give an example. Let's say she is having a pity party over how hard it is to give up OM, and you say you can appreciate how hard it is. It's not so much your response, as it is about how she receives it.

I think it was OS2's thread where this subject came up and his WW was amazed how "understanding he was" as she told him about her strong desire for another man. He was rather proud of how calmly he conducted himself, b/c he was focused on validating her. And, this focus on validating a WW seems to be where many H's stumble. OS2 didn't seem to understand that's why she tells him that they make better friends than spouses......and she's not interested in being intimate with him. In the meantime, she playing the distant & pursuit game with him, while keeps contact with OM. It's b/c she received his validation as if he was her BFF......which is not a typical response from a husband who is hearing his W talk about her strong desire for another guy. Am I making sense? As I told him, she was expecting him to react like a husband, not some friend. I'm just trying to prevent you from making the same mistake.

I'm sure there are some who don't agree with me, and would say I don't understand validation. I think it's the nice-guy LBH's who don't understand how and when they should/shouldn't validate a WW. Wonka talks about this in the validation thread.

I hope you won't feel like I'm knocking you down every time you stand up. I think you've done better than most newcomer LBH's with a WW after only a couple of months. This is a critical point in your M, and I am pulling for you two to make it. ((hugs))

[kto626]

Sandi:

However, the transparency plan is your design. Make sense?

It makes total sense. My plan is to literally use the word transparency.

you can tell her you need all her passwords to her accounts (email, SM, phone activity, etc.). Now, remember, she is the cheater, not you. If she starts talking about it being an invasion of privacy, I want you to realize she's really talking about invasion of secrecy.

This does make me uneasy. I don't want to police her but I understand why I should. When I spoke to my IC, which by the way he agrees with EVERYTHING on his board that I have told him. He tells me the same exact things you guys do, he told me to hold off on that conversation so that it can be discussed with him (he was our old MC and will be again once we get there). He said if that is something I want, then it is fair to ask for it.

How can you have it both ways? It seems to me that you are really seeing the IC for MC.

My IC was our previous MC. We saw him for 4 months before BD, stopped, and then went back after BD. After the 3rd session and her continuing to have contact with the OM, he recommended to me that I stop (I called him a few days after and asked his opinion and that is what he said). I asked if he would be my IC since he knew both of us. He agreed and the plan is to go back to him for MC. I would then find another IC.

Hi advice right now: don't talk to her unless it is about our D. Leave her alone and she should leave me alone. He doesn't know that she is going to end contact so I will see what he says next.

Frankly, I think you don't know what to do and just want MC to fix things. That's understandable

Partly true but I think I know what I need to do. Take time, take things slow, continue my work and allow her to continue hers. Set the boundaries/expectations on transparency. Trust but verify everything and make her work on us more than I work on us.

[job]

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