Help with WW #3

[OS2]

Thread 1
Thread 2

Last post:
So, I moved out all of W's stuff last night and took it round to her parents. W messaged me a few hours before to tell me she would intentionally be out as she would be too emotional. Her parents seemed sad, I tried to hold back the emotion. Once I got back W messaged and said she wanted to see me to talk. I said I didn't think there was anything to talk about but said she could come over if she wanted.

W came over, and started by telling me all the ways I have disappointed her and what she's found difficult over the last few weeks. A lot of distorted logic and over-actions to things I've recently said which I think may have just been excuses in her head for how she's acted. But then she broke down and said she doesn't want a D and doesn't think she can live without me. It all came out that she has strong feelings for OM, feels like she is infatuated and has seen him a few times over the last few months, including being intimate and is in contact a lot (which I presumed to be the case). Said she has broken it off with OM 3 times already including Sunday when she came home upset. We talked about all the usual A characteristics - "he understands me", "I'm different around him", "spark was gone" etc. I said that was all pretty usual. She said she thinks about me all the time when she's with OM. Essentially she said she is trapped and needs help and support and that she isn't strong enough. I validated. She said a few times she was shocked at how much I understood her, the situation and how understanding I was. Turns out I was right about nearly all of it, even at a deeper level as to precisely what the A gave her. She said she didn't want to tell me the extent of her feelings in an attempt to minimise the damage. OM wants a relationship with her I think but has apparently let her go without chasing previously.

She said after I found out she thought she might be best letting me go and trying to be single for a while. I said it was inevitable a relationship with OM would start in that case. She said she doesn't see a future with OM.

I told her since finding out she's been seeing him behind my back I've emotionally checked out of the relationship and have been seeking legal advice. Pictures taken down, her stuff out of the house, taken off my W ring. I told her I would think about what she had said.

She also said she would end it permanently with OM. I said if she did that she would need to do it with me involved. She said she would want to do it in person, I said that wouldn't be an option, she agreed. I told her she would have a long road ahead of work to do if she wanted me back and I wasn't sure. She said she thought she wouldn't find it that difficult because she would set her mind to it. She also said she would need to cut large groups of friends out of her life to honestly R which she has never said before and I know are really important to her. That also includes changing gyms and making some major lifestyle changes. She said she can't believe how badly she's treated me and feels she's been very cruel and cold which she didn't think she was capable of. I agreed.

I know it's all "she said" above ^ . I know I'm guilty of this. Believe nothing she says and half of what she does. So I'm sceptical of everything she has said and I know she could just be bouncing off the idea of losing me. I'm not rushing into anything now. She is so changeable day to day (just like I've been) she needs to prove herself over a sustained period before I will consider next steps. In just 1 week she has told me she wants to make it work, then broken it off with OM, then changed her mind, gone out with him, been caught, decided her M was probably over, wondered about dating again and then come crying back.

Sandi - could really do with your help here! Living separately, changeable from day to day. It feels like she is on the brink of properly wanting to come back but she still isn't ready yet and has a lot of work to do. I wouldn't be sure how to handle a R. I'm in 2 minds anyway now.
--

Looks like you’re a glutton for punishment. I’ll say one word to you. ACTIONS

Yep, on both counts.

Latest - W says she doesn't want a D and wants some space to sort her head out. I don't want to enter a period of stalemate now though with the D looming. It makes me want to give her an ultimatum as I don't want to drag this out now. I feel she needs direction and is asking me for support and help to straighten herself out. My instinct is she has to do that on her own though? She seemed to intimate last night that she doesn't want a D but she's not sure she wants to be with me and would rather have some time on her own. I just find this confusing.

[LH19]

OS,

It’s confusing to you because you listen to her BS. It’s not confusing to us because we’ve seen this hundreds of times. Words mean nothing in these situations. She wants to see where things go with OM and have you sit by and be good little boy while she decides. Once she sees a future with OM then your history.

Look man I know this is tough but unfortunately in these situations once you show weakness you are basically screwed.

[OS2]

W has messaged saying she's been thinking about me and she's looking at IC. She says she is in a mess and needs to sort herself out. I sent a message back to tell her what I expect her to do to save the M and said I won't feel like talking to her anymore unless she is making steps towards it. Includes letter to OM, passwords etc, IC, changing friendship groups and NC with OM. W said she can do that. She said the difficult bit will be keeping it up. If she doesn't I'll probably file (but I haven't told her that). She's also asked what parts of the M will change if we started again (bringing up a few issues from the M). I validated and said we would sort out any problems that led to the A (if we get that far). I'm NC now until action.

[LH19]

No more communication until you start seeing steps in the right direction. Also, don’t keep repeating your requirements. She knows.

[kto626]

OS2, be strong. I am trying too and know how hard it is. But you said yourself that if you could do it all over again you would stick to your boundaries and NC. Now is the time. Nothing to lose at this point. Whenever I feel myself becoming weak, or wanting to reach out to her, I tell myself it is an emotion and not what I really want to do. It is hard. But convince yourself at the moment you can wait a few hours before you act on emotion. By then, you usually talk yourself out of it.

We are two lost ships in a storm. We don't know our way out but the vets have provided us their compass (DB'ing and advice). Let's follow the compass until we get out of this instead of blindly steering the ship off course.

Be strong when I know it is hard to do. But you can do it.

[neffer]

Hey OS! You know you are dealing with an addict there, right? Be prepared for the up and downs of that voyage. You both need to sail those waters. Hope you use the same boat.

Be strong there man! Keep DB and eyes wide open.

[OS2]

Thank you LH19, kto626, neffer. As more and more has come out and W is still a WW she's been pushing me further and further away to a point where I am a lot less motivated to R. And I'm moving further away with everything - house emptied of her stuff, wedding ring off, NC.

The way W has acted - so thoughtless, selfish, continuing on talking/seeing OM it is hard to remember the person underneath who is being tortured by addiction and is acting out. W recently was telling me how much she has suffered through all this and how hard it's been on her.

I wonder whether Sandi could shed light on life after R, because I find her wayward behaviour so off-putting for the future. Does the WW go back to normal over time? Will the loving W who would do anything for me, loves me unconditionally and wouldn't dream of hurting me that I remember ever re-appear? Last time I spoke to W, (after saying how much she didn't want a divorce) she said she couldn't imagine being with any other AP than OM (how sweet..) She doesn't want a divorce but seems to be weighing up "what she will get" from R. So selfish, it really puts me off making it work with her if she's not going to look back on things like that with utter shame.

[LH19]

OS,

Let me guess you initiated another R talk? Fool me once shame on me fool me ten times well you know the rest. You have a tough time following directions don’t you? As far as your W going back to your old wife. That is probably not gonna happen but obviously no one knows what the future holds. Unfortunately you have a really long time before you will see any remorse from her. You seem like an impatient guy so I’m guessing this isn’t going to work for you. I’m thankful there are no children involved in your situation. You have some decisions to make because right now you are the definition of insanity.

Good luck O!

[OS2]

No LH19, I've not been in touch with her, I've been NC for a few days now, and will continue to be until I see some action. End of. I am just thinking through how she has acted that's all. When I last saw W she explained how much she is infatuated with OM etc. which she'd never said before and always played it down.

I've just been reading Sandi's first thread and she was exactly the same as my WW, it's amazing to read. Feeling trapped etc. Last week W asked me for help to know what to do and to fix the mess she'd got herself in and was going on about how terrible she feels all the time. Just sounds exactly the same.

[LH19]

There’s a reason we call it a script.

Sandis affair was long distance and it took her two years to warm up to her husband again.

If you don’t have infinite patience then you’re in the wrong game.

My sitch went 3.5 from bomb drop to D final.

[Traveler]

Does the WW go back to normal over time?

What you experienced as "normal" ended like this--so I hope not! The future would just repeat itself. If you R successfully, by the time you R, one of you or probably both of you, will undergo real changes.

[OS2]

Does the WW go back to normal over time?

What you experienced as "normal" ended like this--so I hope not! The future would just repeat itself. If you R successfully, by the time you R, one of you or probably both of you, will undergo real changes.

Thank you.

[AnotherStander]

OS2, it sounds like you are handling things well, so good job in not just rolling out the red carpet and standing at the end with open arms. She is NOT ready to come back to the M. All the stuff she's telling you is "you are still Plan B, but I'm not sure if Plan A is going to work out so I might be interested in falling back to Plan B if I have to." And no, that is not acceptable. YOU need to be Plan A in her eyes, not just a safety net.

And all of this stuff she's agreeing to, don't believe it for a second. I think she's just trying to manipulate you, it's not genuine. She may be on her way to really wanting the M again, but she hasn't hit rock bottom yet.

[OS2]

Thanks AnotherStander. It’s just so unreasonable it’s making me want to give up on her. I just keep patience and let it fizzle out with OM despite her thinking he’s wonderful and basically what feels like in the early stages of a relationship with him? I do wonder if she’s told him it’s over between me and W for good too so he’s giving her early relationship attention while telling me it won’t last and she will come back. It’s just hard to justify wanting to put up with that now. Before when it was played down I had a better shot at taking it. Now it feels more serious it’s making me want to quit.

[LH19]

OS,

That’s because you listen to her words. This is a reoccurring theme for you O. Not to mention what it sounds like to me is that you are ok sharing your W for a little while but not long term WTF???

Look I know this is hard. Also please remember that even if the affair ends that doesn’t mean she’ll want to come back to the marriage.

Get a really good lawyer.

[OS2]

LH19, no of course I’m not ok with it but I feel DB’ing when it feels like W is basically trying out a relationship with OM just makes me feel it’s crazy to be busying myself with anything other than the relationship and not filing for D. I’ve got a good L. I’ll wait for a bit, see if anything changes then file I think.

[LH19]

OS,

Knowing what I know from experience and with the fact you have no children. I would file.

[AnotherStander]

I just keep patience and let it fizzle out with OM despite her thinking he’s wonderful and basically what feels like in the early stages of a relationship with him?

It's like LH said earlier, you gave her your terms. You made it clear to her she needs to work on herself and earn your trust and interest back. Where you go from here is to pull WAY back. No more R talks. You focus on you and you alone. If she pings you then remind her that you've already had that conversation and now both of you need time to work on yourselves and decide what you really want. So yes be patient. No don't wait for things to fizzle out. Don't want for her at all. Just keep moving forward.

I do wonder if she’s told him it’s over between me and W for good too so he’s giving her early relationship attention while telling me it won’t last and she will come back. It’s just hard to justify wanting to put up with that now. Before when it was played down I had a better shot at taking it. Now it feels more serious it’s making me want to quit.

Don't lay awake at night pondering what she's thinking and what her words mean. You'll just drive yourself crazy. She's still stuck in the affair fog and flip-flopping around on what she really wants. As LH said, quit focusing on her words and watch her actions. She SAID she'll break it off with OM. She SAID she wants to work on the M. She SAID she's going to seek out IC. But has she DONE anything? No, she hasn't. And even if she does do those things, for one or two days or a week is not enough. WAS's will often do these things and then slip right back into their cheating ways in a few days or a week. You need to see consistent, changed behavior for months before you can start to believe it.

[Traveler]

it’s crazy to be busying myself with anything other than the relationship and not filing for D.

Filing for D is compatible with DB'ing, as long as you're doing it because you want that separation--consistently, many days in a row--NOT because you want to shock her or wake her up. If you have the emotional strength for this (rather than discuss, threaten, change your mind)--it makes sense.

You say it's crazy to focus on making yourself a better and more attractive person, that you should be focusing instead on this woman who's cheating on you with another guy. What would that look like?

[sandi2]

So, I moved out all of W's stuff last night and took it round to her parents. W messaged me a few hours before to tell me she would intentionally be out as she would be too emotional. Her parents seemed sad, I tried to hold back the emotion.

I'm sure it was very tough on you, as well as her parents.

Once I got back W messaged and said she wanted to see me to talk. I said I didn't think there was anything to talk about but said she could come over if she wanted.

Well, that's a typical move from a WW. Wished you had simply told her there was nothing else to talk about, and not invited her over.

W came over, and started by telling me all the ways I have disappointed her and what she's found difficult over the last few weeks. A lot of distorted logic and over-actions to things I've recently said

Okay, I want you to pay close attention here. Do you see what I see? She wanted to meet to talk, and she immediately starts in on you......and how you've disappointed her. This is the arrogance and self-centeredness of a WW. This is also a big red flag that she is not ready to reconcile, b/c she isn't accepting responsibility for her affair. She's trying to twist things around.

But then she broke down and said she doesn't want a D and doesn't think she can live without me. It all came out that she has strong feelings for OM, feels like she is infatuated and has seen him a few times over the last few months, including being intimate and is in contact a lot (which I presumed to be the case).

She wants to have time pursuing her affair with OM, but she wants you on standby for the day the affair fizzles out. She admits to being intimate with him, but has the audacity to tell you she doesn't think she can live without you.

She said she thinks about me all the time when she's with OM.

Oh please! Is that suppose to make you feel better, or make her having sex with another man less disrespectful to you and the marriage? These type statements from a WW just make me angry, b/c she is trying to manipulate your feelings and keep you on the back burner.

Essentially she said she is trapped and needs help and support and that she isn't strong enough.

It's a trap of her own making, and you can't give her support until she ends all contact with OM. That's it.

She said she didn't want to tell me the extent of her feelings in an attempt to minimise the damage. OM wants a relationship with her I think but has apparently let her go without chasing previously.

Oh, how considerate of her......trying to minimize the damage. Frankly, I think it is WW b.s.

OM letting her go, creates more attraction. Something I wish LBH's would understand they need to do the minute they discover WW is in an affair.

I told her since finding out she's been seeing him behind my back I've emotionally checked out of the relationship and have been seeking legal advice. Pictures taken down, her stuff out of the house, taken off my W ring. I told her I would think about what she had said.

Think about what she said? Which part, exactly? Did I miss something?

She also said she would end it permanently with OM. I said if she did that she would need to do it with me involved. She said she would want to do it in person, I said that wouldn't be an option, she agreed. I told her she would have a long road ahead of work to do if she wanted me back and I wasn't sure. She said she thought she wouldn't find it that difficult because she would set her mind to it. She also said she would need to cut large groups of friends out of her life to honestly R which she has never said before and I know are really important to her. That also includes changing gyms and making some major lifestyle changes. She said she can't believe how badly she's treated me and feels she's been very cruel and cold which she didn't think she was capable of. I agreed.

She was making a lot of contradicting statements. She had also said she thought about letting you go. So, how are you suppose to know what she means?

Did she know what you meant by telling her you would need to be involved? If she is being completely honest in the above quote, it sounds much better than that other stuff she was uttering. Doesn't mean she'll put any action to it.

She is so changeable day to day (just like I've been) she needs to prove herself over a sustained period before I will consider next steps. In just 1 week she has told me she wants to make it work, then broken it off with OM, then changed her mind, gone out with him, been caught, decided her M was probably over, wondered about dating again and then come crying back.

Well, she can't decide which man she wants. She was hoping you would hang around until she figured it out. I think it will be extremely hard for her to break it off with OM. IMHO, the WW who truly wants to save her M, needs a support system to help her through the days/weeks/months after ending the affair. She'll be like a drug addict craving a fix.

So I'm sceptical of everything she has said and I know she could just be bouncing off the idea of losing me.

Yes, you need to be skeptical, b/c she is acting on her emotions. When you took her belongings to her parents' house, it began to feel a little more real. However, this doesn't mean she's going to straighten up and do the right thing. Did she give you a sincere apology? Did she verbally commit to the M? IDK, but she doesn't sound very remorseful. Maybe confused, but I'm not sure she regrets the affair. As long as she's contacting OM, I don't think she'll regret it.

Latest - W says she doesn't want a D and wants some space to sort her head out.

That's WW code, meaning she doesn't want YOU pressuring her. In other words, she wants her cake and eat it too.

I don't want to enter a period of stalemate now though with the D looming. It makes me want to give her an ultimatum as I don't want to drag this out now. I feel she needs direction and is asking me for support and help to straighten herself out. My instinct is she has to do that on her own though? She seemed to intimate last night that she doesn't want a D but she's not sure she wants to be with me and would rather have some time on her own. I just find this confusing.

I kind of feel that a stalemate is exactly what will come, if you tell her you will wait for her to decide which man she wants. You are in a marriage, not a competition. She isn't the prize. Based on your post, she did not commit. Unless I missed it, she did not ask for your help. She did not apologize or show any remorse. She mainly just said she didn't want a D.

She has two main things working against her right now. Emotions and confusion. She went over there to talk you out of filing for D, and left without a plan of action. Yes, she said she'd end things with OM, but then she wanted space to sort things out. So, I don't think she'll come to a firm decision on her own as long as she knows you are waiting.

Ultimatums don't usually work well with WW's, but if you are fed up enough........that's up to you. Just don't give it and then cave.

If I were the LBH, and knew what I know about WW's.........I'd probably tell her there was no need for her to sort things out, and then I'd go file those papers. But that's just me, and it's your life.....not mine.

((hugs))

[OS2]

Thank you LH/AS/CW/Sandi, you've been helping me stay sane and on track.

After having been NC since the weekend W came over last night wanting to update me. No actions yet, but her conversation was entirely about the future and what she wanted to do, cutting out OM, making the M work for good and getting back together. She said she couldn't believe how well I now understand her and that she wants my support in cutting off OM. She said she needs to arrange her support network too because she knows she'll find it difficult to give up OM but she wants to, and she's putting it off because she knows how difficult and hurtful she will find it. Should I be helping her with withdrawal? She also told me about the times she's tried to end it with him already and from a few comments she made I think a few cracks are beginning to show too. She said how upset she's been and that she's made a lot of mistakes and how sorry she is. She said there was no chance of this ever happening again because she never wants to feel like she has again.

I was a bit surprised but just stayed calm and collected, validating, while telling myself it's only words not actions. It's also just how she feels today, and I need consistency over the long term. Things have changed so rapidly day to day/week to week I have to remain focused and ride out the long term view. I do have a feeling something might have changed though, whether that's my withdrawal, looming D, less-bothered attitude or just her taking time I don't know. Perhaps the major change is that she's now told me how she feels about OM and her still being in contact with him which she said she was scared to tell me because she had been lying about that for a while and thought she'd lose me.

I've changed a lot through this too, and think I'm finally handling everything stronger and more calmly than before. Perhaps saying goodbye to her parents, moving her things out and preparing for a D have helped with that mentality too. She said she hasn't been able to cut OM out on her own so far, and asked me where she could get support from. I said she could lean on friends and read about affairs to validate her emotions, and said it's an addiction and it's helpful to rationalise feelings and not act on them - and it's brain chemistry that's driving the addiction. Tempted to recommend here (bad bad idea) or particular books but not a good idea either right?

I've been working on myself, enjoying my own company and have read quite a few books recently including Women's Infidelity (after reading Sandi's threads), what a great book. There are so many things about our M that I now understand far better. I wish I'd read up on relationships after getting married (or preferably before). I don't want to stop now on understanding relationships (and the opposite sex) better, it's obviously an area I can improve on.

Does the WW go back to normal over time?

What you experienced as "normal" ended like this--so I hope not! The future would just repeat itself. If you R successfully, by the time you R, one of you or probably both of you, will undergo real changes.

This is so true, and deserves a place in the quotes thread. I think if we get through this we'll be on marriage #2 and we'll be starting again as two entirely different people with a different relationship dynamic. And if not I'll be far more understanding and a better partner for my next relationship.

[LH19]

Yo OS so nothing has changed in your situation after no contact for a couple days. Not surprising. Sounds like your getting a little excited that your winning the competition with the OM.

Unless she truly has to work hard to EARN another chance with you IMO you are wasting your time and are going to go through some serious pain.

Keep DBing.

[AnotherStander]

After having been NC since the weekend W came over last night wanting to update me.

OS, stop the madness! Why in the world do you keep letting her come over and tell you the EXACT SAME NONSENSE she's ALREADY told you over and over again? You have GOT to be firm with her. Enough is enough. Tell her "W, I am done speaking with you about this. You know what you need to do. I don't want to talk to you or see you again, please respect my privacy." PERIOD. END OF STORY.

No actions yet

Then the rest doesn't matter. Words are cheap, especially when they're coming out of a WW's mouth.

but her conversation was entirely about the future and what she wanted to do, cutting out OM, making the M work for good and getting back together.

If it really mattered that much to her then OM would be in the rearview mirror and she would be begging you to forgive her transgressions, NOT to take her back because once she hits rock bottom she will no longer feel worthy of being your W. SHE WILL BEG YOU TO FORGIVE HER. <<< Read that, sear it into your mind. All she is doing right now is STILL blaming you, and then telling you she needs your support while she TRIES to wean herself off of OM. I mean are you kidding me? She's throwing you stale crumbs and you are crawling on the ground lapping them up. Please stop!

She said she needs to arrange her support network too because she knows she'll find it difficult to give up OM but she wants to, and she's putting it off because she knows how difficult and hurtful she will find it.

I wish you could step outside of your situation for a moment and just bask in the absolute absurdity and selfishness of a statement like this!! Where you see hope I see utter ridiculousness.

Should I be helping her with withdrawal?

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She said there was no chance of this ever happening again because she never wants to feel like she has again.

OK so let me give you an analogy here. A heroin addict will tell you over and over again about how they are done, they're going to get clean, get a job, get a car, get a house, get their kids back that they lost in a custody battle, and make the life for themselves they've always wanted. ALL WHILE STILL DOING HEROIN. I have known a couple of addicts and heard it all first-hand, believe me. They just need a little money to put themselves on the right track. Do they mean it? Yes they absolutely mean it at that time. If you give them money it gets immediately shot right into their arm, just "one last blast" before they go on the straight and narrow. And one more, and one more... until they're in jail or dead. YOUR WIFE IS AN ADDICT. She's addicted to OM. Remove him from the picture and it won't be long before OM2 arrives. All this talk of "oh I need your support" and "I need a support network to help me through this" and "I'll never do it again" it's all BS. Only SHE can stop, and she's nowhere close to that yet.

Please, just leave her alone. No more R talks, or OM talks. Let her explore her addiction and hit rock bottom because of it and pray that when she does, she'll well and truly do the work on herself that she needs to do. Until then, tell her to leave you alone.

[kto626]

AnotherStander: those words resonate with me as well. OS2, we both need to stop the absurdity. Cold Turkey...let's quit our W for now and focus on us. I agree it is so hard but we are running on a hamster wheel going nowhere. Be strong today. Worry about tomorrow, tomorrow

[sandi2]

I'm sure a lot gets left out whenever you write an update, especially trying to recall conversations. I'm wondering if she has the wrong idea about what part you play. Are you leaving out something important in Sunday's update post? I'm leery of her keeping you on the sidelines while she goes back & forth with OM. I mean, how can you support her if she's wanting space "to sort things out"? She can't have it both ways.

At any time, did you make it clear that the affair had to die a sudden death? No last meetup with OM, no face-to-face goodbyes, no final date........no nothing. Was anything said about a transparency plan? Did she even ask what YOU would need from her?

She said she couldn't believe how well I now understand her and that she wants my support in cutting off OM. She said she needs to arrange her support network too because she knows she'll find it difficult to give up OM but she wants to,

Not absolutely sure what she means in how well she sees you understanding her, now. She should be much more specific in what she means by wanting your support in cutting off OM. Neither do I know what she means by arranging her support network. I think I have a good idea, but not positive. These cannot be friends who like to have girls night out where they behave like GGW. Any "new" friends who have shown up right before or during her affair with OM, shouldn't qualify for the job. Her support network should not be a group of women negatively discussing marriage, husband bashing, or talking in favor of single life, taking more time to decide. which guy she wants, etc. She doesn't need women who are going to tell her about seeing OM somewhere, yada, yada. B/c that type of talk entices her cravings. She'll want to know how he looked, was he with anyone, etc., etc. See what I mean? She can't see photos of OM, or see his posts on social media, etc. She literally has to be cut off from hearing about him through someone else, hearing his voice, seeing him pass by in a car........anything & everything. She has to do the work. It's fine to have a support team, as long as they fully support this M and they are fully aware of their job.......and she doesn't expect them to do her part.

Should I be helping her with withdrawal?

First things first. How can you help her, if the two of you haven't reconciled? You aren't living together, and she hasn't committed to doing the work to save the MR. Nobody can go through the withdrawal process for her. I could give some tips on ways to encourage her, and hold her accountable........but until she decides to all necessary work to save her M, how can you support her? Maybe she's trying to find the right road, but she's not following a map. From what I gather in your post, she is using you like one of those friends in her support network. I realize her feelings are confused, but that's why it's important that she makes a decision from her free volition, rather than emotion. First, she has to make the right decision to honor her marriage/husband and follow through with the right action. Then her emotions will catch up sometime down the road. The problem with most WW's is depending on her emotions to make decisions. Emotions are designed to respond.......not think. The WW is afraid she'll never be happy if she stays with her H. Well, she can't feel love or happiness with her H, if she has OM on the side. So, first things first.

She said how upset she's been and that she's made a lot of mistakes and how sorry she is. She said there was no chance of this ever happening again because she never wants to feel like she has again.

I don't say this to nit-pic, but to use to teach. And..... I'm not there to see her face or hear her voice. I think some WW's try to put their infidelity down as a "mistake". It's more than just a mistake. My belief system says it's a sin, but that may not be true for everyone else. It was terribly, terribly wrong......with several other wrongs wrapped along with the infidelity. Betrayal, deceit, etc., are all part of it. I say this to remind LBS's not to let the wayward spouse get off too easily.......and they will get off easy, if you allow it. That's why you've got to know your terms of reconciliation. Neither of the two sentences in the above quote carry weight. They are just words. Without a solid recovery plan......there's a good chance she'll be guilty of adultery again.

I was a bit surprised but just stayed calm and collected, validating, while telling myself it's only words not actions.

What did you say to validate her?

Perhaps the major change is that she's now told me how she feels about OM and her still being in contact with him which she said she was scared to tell me because she had been lying about that for a while and thought she'd lose me.

This is why I am unsure what she means. Does she see you being her BFF, telling you all about her feelings for OM while she tries to taper off contact with him? IDK, that's why I'm asking you. I could be reading it wrong.

Women's Infidelity (after reading Sandi's threads), what a great book.

Although the timing played an important part, that book did scare me. If I remember correctly, my mentors had already laid some vitally important foundation, and that book just finished it off. I did not want to end up like the last woman in the book's illustration.

Originally Posted by CWarrior

Originally Posted by OS2
Does the WW go back to normal over time?

What you experienced as "normal" ended like this--so I hope not! The future would just repeat itself. If you R successfully, by the time you R, one of you or probably both of you, will undergo real changes.

This is so true, and deserves a place in the quotes thread. I think if we get through this we'll be on marriage #2 and we'll be starting again as two entirely different people with a different relationship dynamic. And if not I'll be far more understanding and a better partner for my next relationship.

Getting through "this" is not the end, but the beginning. The mistake people make about marriage is settling for normal. When we accept things as "normal", we stop working to have better. If we want a good MR, we cannot go back to our previous normal.

The problem I have in seeing the relationship as marriage #2 is how easily things get swept under the rug. I haven't seen a LBH, yet, who isn't eager for things to return to normal. Yes, I agree that a couple doesn't want to remain stuck in the past and dwell on the negative, but I can't stress enough how important it is to work through the issues that caused the problems in the first place. The fact that wayward spouses see marrying a new person so much easier than working on the current M.........should be enough ground for caution. I fully get what you are saying. Just hope LBH's get what I'm saying, too. I wish it was that easy, and I tend to think it's much easier for a young couple who haven't been together as many years.

To answer your question about the WW going back to normal, I believe she can change for the better. I may appear normal to others who know me, but I know I am better than I was prior my WW days. It didn't "just happen"..........like a great MR doesn't just happen. It takes hard work. I'm here to tell everyone that your MR can heal and be happy again. The WW has a tremendous amount of inner work ahead of her. Without the work, the MR may never get much better after ending her affair. The couple may settle into a routine, but they aren't truly happy. That's why I stress that there's more to it, than simply reconciling. Don't be like the guy who only sees getting his WW back as his goal. That's only a step, not the goal.

[OS2]

Hi all, in answer to previous:

I'm leery of her keeping you on the sidelines while she goes back & forth with OM. I mean, how can you support her if she's wanting space "to sort things out"? She can't have it both ways.

At any time, did you make it clear that the affair had to die a sudden death? No last meetup with OM, no face-to-face goodbyes, no final date........no nothing. Was anything said about a transparency plan? Did she even ask what YOU would need from her?

Yes, I have made this very clear. No last meeting etc. We have discussed a hand written letter.

She said she couldn't believe how well I now understand her and that she wants my support in cutting off OM. She said she needs to arrange her support network too because she knows she'll find it difficult to give up OM but she wants to,

Not absolutely sure what she means in how well she sees you understanding her, now.

She has played OM down constantly since I found out and has repeatedly said how OM doesn't really mean much to her. I told her recently what usually happens in affairs and she then revealed she has had strong feelings for OM. She was quite amazed at how understanding I was of what she said I think. I didn't flinch and suspected it all anyway so just validated. I said I understood it was difficult having these feelings and that it was a product of the A.

Does she see you being her BFF, telling you all about her feelings for OM while she tries to taper off contact with him?

This is a worry of W. She thinks we work great as friends and finds me attractive etc but we would have work to do to become comfortable intimately again.

Update -

I went NC for a few days (which as you'll know from my history is a big deal for us!), W contacted, wanted to see me and said she doesn't want a D and that she wants to work on the relationship. We talked about terms and what would be required for her to come back, she left and said she would work things out and come back to me. There was still no action and she was contacting me so I calmly told her I didn't want to hear from her or see her again until she was ready for action.

After another few days of NC W said she was ready to act and came over last night to sort things out. I was expecting her to write a letter to OM and break it off last night. She said she wants me back but is having a hard time with her feelings. She said she can leave OM but feels bad for leaving him. She said relationship with OM is reduced to messaging now. After discussion she agreed again on writing a letter. She is reading up on relationship advice, marriage advice and has booked to see IC. She wants to MC and start seeing each other again. We have talked through other things about the M that went wrong and agreed IF we tried again we would do things differently. Aside from her intentions, booking IC and reading no action yet. It is what she wants but she keeps putting off the inevitable pain that will follow. It's tempting to recommend some of the many books I have read (like Women's Infidelity) - good idea?

[LH19]

OS,

Your updates are painful to read. Are you aware of the definition of insanity? I’m afraid you’re weakening your position here. IC is not a positive action IMO. If she gets the wrong IC it may and probably will make matters worse. Relationship books mean didley right now because she could take tips she learns to use with OM.

Don’t try to force infidelity books on her.

Here are some positive actions:
Gives you all passwords to devices you can check anytime.
Sends NC letter to OM in your presence
Schedules and actively participates in MC sessions

[sandi2]

She has played OM down constantly since I found out and has repeatedly said how OM doesn't really mean much to her. I told her recently what usually happens in affairs and she then revealed she has had strong feelings for OM. She was quite amazed at how understanding I was of what she said I think. I didn't flinch and suspected it all anyway so just validated. I said I understood it was difficult having these feelings and that it was a product of the A.

I was concerned about this part (in bold) in the previous post. I think she was quite amazed at how understanding you were, b/c a W naturally thinks her H will react to her expressing feelings for another man.

I believe newcomer LBH's have trouble balancing all this information they read, and knowing when to apply certain things....and when they shouldn't. For instance, she was talking to you about her strong feelings for OM........and you validated her. What you said to her is what a BFF would say to her.......but, not a husband. This is why she says you work as good friends, b/c she can discuss her feelings for another man with you. I'm not saying she should lie. I'm just saying she'll keep you in the friend zone, as long you sit and listen to her discuss her feelings for another man. IMHO, it does not make the H look attractive or strong, and why would she respect him? At this point, I suggest you don't listen to her talk about how she feels for OM. The only thing you need to hear is that she is ready to do whatever it takes to save this M.

After another few days of NC W said she was ready to act and came over last night to sort things out. I was expecting her to write a letter to OM and break it off last night. She said she wants me back but is having a hard time with her feelings. She said she can leave OM but feels bad for leaving him. She said relationship with OM is reduced to messaging now.

She is more concerned about hurting the OM, than hurting her own H. I'm just sorry you didn't call her hand on it, and tell her you don't have anything else to discuss. In my previous post, I think I mentioned that an affair cannot taper off, b/c it has to die a sudden death. As long as they are messaging, it's giving oxygen to the A.

She is playing games with you. She knows you are waiting for her to make up her mind and choose which man she wants. Take yourself out of the contest. You have to let go of your fear of losing her. When you stop being afraid of losing her and/or getting a D, and stop having all these discussions about the MR.......and her relationship with OM, she might get off her rear. But right now, she's still in an A, and I don't think she'll give up her A for a H she has friend zoned.

Aside from her intentions, booking IC and reading no action yet. It is what she wants but she keeps putting off the inevitable pain that will follow.

It isn't what she wants! This is an example of her playing games. She's got two guys who want her. One guy is her BFF, and the other guy is her lover. She doesn't want to give up either one.

It's tempting to recommend some of the many books I have read (like Women's Infidelity) - good idea?

At this point, I think you may be trying to help her too much. Removing yourself from the picture, IMHO, will be more effective that giving her books. Yes, that book was instrumental in opening my eyes a little wider........but my H didn't give it to me, nor did he recommend other books for me to read. If I remember correctly (and there's a possibility I don't), the dominoes had already started falling around me by the time I read that book. Timing plays a large part in all of this.

Am I telling you to file for a D? No, but I'm telling you to drop her and move forward in your life.

((hugs))

[AnotherStander]

I believe newcomer LBH's have trouble balancing all this information they read, and knowing when to apply certain things....and when they shouldn't. For instance, she was talking to you about her strong feelings for OM........and you validated her. What you said to her is what a BFF would say to her.......but, not a husband. This is why she says you work as good friends, b/c she can discuss her feelings for another man with you. I'm not saying she should lie. I'm just saying she'll keep you in the friend zone, as long you sit and listen to her discuss her feelings for another man. IMHO, it does not make the H look attractive or strong, and why would she respect him? At this point, I suggest you don't listen to her talk about how she feels for OM. The only thing you need to hear is that she is ready to do whatever it takes to save this M.

Please listen to Sandi! I'm a huge proponent of validating but it is possibly the most misunderstood, misused and even abused DB technique. People say things they think are validation that really aren't (yes I agree with you, yes I was wrong, yes it's all my fault) or use it at wholly inappropriate times (oh things aren't going well with OM, that must be very difficult for you). Personally I do not think it's EVER appropriate to have casual conversations with a cheating spouse. I think conversations should be avoided, but if necessary they should be short and to the point and all business. "I will pick up D at 3:00 pm, does that work for you?" "I paid XYZ bill, can you please transfer more money into the bill account." If the spouse gets chatty then don't be rude, but don't engage. "I need to run, talk to you later." We always say "you can't nice them back" but I think people engage in these friendzone convos with their cheating spouse hoping to do exactly that.

Sandi often talks about the lack of respect a WW has for her H. Letting her chat you up about OM and you responding by being accommodating and understanding and validating about it, that just encourages the disrespect. Your attitude should be "if she wants to talk about OM then the conversation is over, period."

[OS2]

Thanks Sandi/AS, that's a really valid point. We've skirted over feelings for OM to be honest but some of it I can see was probably a bit too much to validate - they would mainly include things that he's said or done that she liked. At the time she was wanting to tell me things she thought were missing from our interaction in the M and hence she was getting outside the M. Some of the things W has said during those conversations (like how difficult it is to "turn her back on OM") have been quite unreasonable and have made me quite angry, but I haven't risen to the bait and have just been calm and collected because it's her emotions talking. My instinct during those times has been to walk away when the conversation was unreasonable but I've not felt that would be helpful as W is opening up at those times and I'd rather hear it than not.

I think W is finally sorting her head out, but it's on her own terms. She has started a blog where she is writing about doing what is right, "sorting her mess out", self healing and following your head and your dreams, not your emotions. She's booked IC and has suggested I do the same and would like to do MC after that. And she's been messaging me saying she misses me and would like to wake up beside me. W's IC has suggested she doesn't see anyone (aside from parents living with) for a few weeks (until her first app), so she can take time for herself and not make any fast decisions. That's quite easy with coronavirus lockdown anyway. She's offered me her IC's details if I want to ring to check, I haven't. IC told her sharing passwords "sounds like controlling behaviour". W said herself though that she's done a lot of stupid things and regretted them (like resuming contact with OM) and she didn't trust herself. I said if she can't trust herself, how does she expect me to trust her without being transparent. She's also written "the letter" as I requested but it's on pause until she sees IC and is "better equipped for what will follow". I've made it clear I would need to see and approve it. W also says she is reducing communication with OM. It seems to me that W has a plan of getting over OM and getting on with her life, and she said "I'll take help from wherever I can get it because I can't keep living like this and want to move forward with the M". Sceptical of the whole situation and I've no control over what she does and have zero expectations, but that's where we are. I imagine you'll all tell me I should be entirely detaching and letting her come running back?

[LH19]

OS,

Again all words so we will see. Big red flag for me is that she said IC said sharing passwords is "controlling behavior". A good IC would know she needs to earn yout trust back. If I was a betting man and I am, she's trying manipulated you.

Only time will tell. This virus must be hell for cheaters.

[sandi2]

IC told her sharing passwords "sounds like controlling behaviour". W said herself though that she's done a lot of stupid things and regretted them (like resuming contact with OM) and she didn't trust herself. I said if she can't trust herself, how does she expect me to trust her without being transparent. She's also written "the letter" as I requested but it's on pause until she sees IC and is "better equipped for what will follow". I've made it clear I would need to see and approve it. W also says she is reducing communication with OM. It seems to me that W has a plan of getting over OM and getting on with her life,

SMH

Sceptical of the whole situation

Yeah, me too.

but that's where we are. I imagine you'll all tell me I should be entirely detaching and letting her come running back?

Would it do any good for us to tell you to entirely detach and let her come running back?

[sandi2]

We're all in quarantine, and suddenly everyone's GAL? Can't give an update for days? What's wrong with everyone?

Okay, then I'll go over and visit You Tube and see if there is any action there.

[OS2]

Since my last update not much has changed in status but W's attitude appears to have improved a little. She's had IC now for a few weeks and as I put on my last update I've noticed some actual changes in her - talking now a lot about R, moving on with her life, and sharing more etc.

I've actually detached a fair bit but she's come over 2-3 times over the last few weeks to talk about R (prompted by her), two of those times she was supposed to be actioning NC with AP. A while ago I bought a couples relationship book that I thought we could go through if we reconciled and while we were talking one night she picked it up and started reading it and suggested we go through the book together. We did a few chapters and W said how much she had valued and enjoyed going through it together - seemed almost a taster of what working on the M could be like. As I thought it was positive and she appeared to have been trying I let that happen initially but eventually put a stop to it when she was asking to come round for the next bit as I said it was pointless to continue, almost like dating, while there is still communication with OM.

The last time she came round was on the condition of her sending 'the letter', although she wrote a new one out as she wasn't happy with the first one (she had a copy on her phone so at least I know it existed). What she wrote was actually pretty reasonable and made me think she'd drafted a few already, but after some tears she said she needed more time to be stronger to send it and would 'work on it'. W said I know everything now and has no problem with all my requests (passwords, phone, NC, etc no problem despite what she's said before) when she feels strong enough to give OM up but feels like an addict that can't kick the habit. I told her I was getting tired of the whole thing and feeling less and less interested. She has a friend who has been in limbo for years between two men (used to be intimate, now just friends with both) and she's been talking to her recently and they've been trying to motivate each other.

That brings us to this morning when she said she would come round to see me tonight. I told her that I didn't want to see her until she gives up OM and is ready to work on the M, and also that I'd like to complete the first part of the D agreement paperwork which we could set aside if it doesn't work out. She said she will sort herself out and follow through with what she's been telling me.

I don't know whether she's trying to play me or not but I do think she doesn't want to lose me or the M. I'm past caring about the cause and effect of what I'm doing now though, and just living my life the way I want to live it regardless of what else happens. I'm actually quite care-free now and have made peace with what will be will be. Either way I will ask her to complete the paperwork and will consider the options if she does come through on her NC with AP. I'm really investing in myself, I'm ready for whatever life throws at me next, whether that's a R or a new relationship. I won't become one of these sad people that hangs on forever, the ship is leaving the dock with or without cargo.

[LH19]

OS,

You are kinda like those parents who tell their kids if you do that one more time I’m taking away your car. Then the kid does it again and they don’t take away the car. Then they complain to one another that the kid doesn’t listen.

Yeah it’s hard to stop smoking crack. That’s why most addicts don’t stop until they hit rock bottom. Stop being the parent who doesn’t follow through and stop being an enabler.

She’s playing you.

[sandi2]

Look, she needs to dump OM! Forget a letter, and go NC with OM. Why is she (and her IC) diligently working on a letter to a predator? I'll tell you why. She's more concerned about her lover's feelings, than her H's.

W said I know everything now and has no problem with all my requests (passwords, phone, NC, etc no problem despite what she's said before) when she feels strong enough to give OM up but feels like an addict that can't kick the habit. I told her I was getting tired of the whole thing and feeling less and less interested. She has a friend who has been in limbo for years between two men (used to be intimate, now just friends with both) and she's been talking to her recently and they've been trying to motivate each other.

Do you want to know how to end limbo? Apparently, there are a lot of LBS's who don't seem to know. You remove yourself from that dynamic. I think that's the real thing LBS's have trouble with. They had rather remain in limbo with the cheater, than shut the door. No more being friends, or having sex and/or sleep-overs, or something in-between where you don't know what the heck is going on. You are dangling by a thread, waiting.....waiting....waiting for her to make up her mind. How insulting for a faithful spouse to wait around for their cheating spouse to choose. Well, the faithful spouse can make choices, also, and decide to no longer live in limbo. Shut the door!

[OS2]

Eventful couple of days. W came over a few days ago and said she had come over to sort out her life and start NC with OM. She said I'm the most important person in the world to her and she wanted to make the M work. She had a message she'd worked on and wanted to send to OM and told me that it was going to be hard because she had built it up in her head and still has feelings for OM but wanted to move forward with her life, come out of limbo and doesn't believe OM will make her happy long term and she wants to be with me. She said she was most scared of losing me. She had the message ready to send but didn't feel strong enough to physically press the send button and asked me to press it. I stalled and told her that she needed to be sure this is what she really wanted and that it was her decision and she said yes send it, and block him on everything for me. After clarifying, I did. OM immediately phoned her swearing and telling her he'd beat me up (unbelievable, and what a nice man). I think the phone call actually gave W some closure as he wasn't pleasant and was trying to manipulate her. I'm continuing being my best self, listening, supporting, but being cynical and observant at all times. Last chance and we both know it. Work on the new M begins now.

[LH19]

She had a message she'd worked on and wanted to send to OM and told me that it was going to be hard because she had built it up in her head and still has feelings for OM but wanted to move forward with her life, come out of limbo and doesn't believe OM will make her happy long term and she wants to be with me. She said she was most scared of losing me.

I am gonna say this tongue and cheek "you sound like a luck guy"

She had the message ready to send but didn't feel strong enough to physically press the send button and asked me to press it.

Seriously

OM immediately phoned her swearing and telling her he'd beat me up (unbelievable, and what a nice man). I think the phone call actually gave W some closure as he wasn't pleasant and was trying to manipulate her.

So he's a bad guy for trying to manipulate her but it's ok she's manipulating you?

Look man I am not saying that at some point you can't reconcile but it is clear this is happening for two reasons. 1. Her OM turned out to be a dueshe bag and 2. she doesn't want to stay at her parents anymore. At best right not you have a stay of execution until an OM comes around.

If you engage in a relationship with her again it should only be under the conditions that:

1) She sees you as someone of extremely high value
2) She views a relationship with you as something much better than a life with someone else or a life alone
3) She's willing to work to win you

Without those three things, she's going to cheat again down the line, because she really doesn't have the motivation to work with you to change anything, your relationship will keep seeking the same equilibrium it has had because of how your personalities and issues come together.

I am sure Sandi will come along and give you more detailed advice.

[sandi2]

I stalled and told her that she needed to be sure this is what she really wanted and that it was her decision and she said yes send it, and block him on everything for me. After clarifying, I did. OM immediately phoned her

Guess OM wasn't blocked after all.

I think the phone call actually gave W some closure as he wasn't pleasant and was trying to manipulate her.

Don't count on it.

[JosephS]

OS,
Good luck. I hope everything works out fantastically for you and your W.

I don’t know either one of you obviously, but be very careful. If she was over the OM enough to move on with you and you were the most important person in her life and didn’t wanna lose you, she’d do anything to make that happen. But she couldn’t get rid of the OM. She had you do it. That’s an issue because now she can blame you for sending it to the OM and tell him she didn’t do it. Or she can mentally tell herself the same thing. She left herself a path to open communication back up with the OM and she left a path to blame it on you if she does so. She can tell herself she wasn’t ready and you pushed her to do it.