Here's a link to my last thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2885493&page=allQuick recap— found out my H had been in a 2 year long-distance PA at the end of December, after months of trickle truth (first ILYB, then an EA). 2 kids. After the final BD we had a few weeks of torture when he couldn’t decide what to do except that he wanted us to figure it out together (remaining “best friends” with me was a non-negotiable for him, which obviously was not going to happen if he left). I had read DR in April after the first BD and put a number of the DB strategies into play, and then found this lifesaving board after he told me he had an “emotional connection” with someone in August, so have been doing my best to DB for wow… the better part of a year, now.
We saw a discernment counselor in January and he decided to end the A and work it out with me, though not because he was choosing ME so much as choosing our life together with a focus on the children. He’d probably seen her 12-15 times over the course of two years but was ready to throw our entire R away and was very ambivalent for a long time (they’d been “trying” to break up for the entire second year of the A).
He went to her city on a business trip six weeks ago and asked me to let him end it with her on his own terms and not dictate anything, which I agreed to, since it was all outside of my control anyway.
He’s been NC for a little over five weeks now. We’re still seeing the counselor (well we were, at least, before everything changed this past week with the coronavirus pandemic) which has shifted from DC into… not really MC yet, more like facilitated/structured communication in preparation for eventual MC.
Things are generally very good between us. The coronavirus situation seems to have brought out the best in our R and he’s been very supportive, kind, funny, helpful… kind of like the perfect H except that the romance part isn’t there between us. Lots of acts of service (my primary LL), not a lot of physical touch still (his primary LL). Pommy, you'd asked me about that-- should I respond-- I feel like I did previously and he kind of reacted weirdly, like he wasn't doing it on purpose and it freaked him out when I acknowledged or touched him back. So I've been kind of playing it like I don't really notice. After MC a couple of weeks ago he told me he was having a hard time with the romance part and I have not pushed that at all. I’ve been frankly amazed at how well we’ve repaired after a couple fights, and overall in the day-to-day, when I’m not remembering about the A, we are better friends and partners than we’ve been in a long, long time.
But… we aren’t talking about what happened. We’d been mostly only discussing it weekly in MC and now that is probably on hold for awhile. MC had counseled me to relax and that this will all take time, H is grieving, not ready to dive into real MC yet and work on building M2.0… but I still have all these unanswered questions about the A, and about my H (why this happened, how i’ll know it won’t happen again, etc ) plus just a lot of unprocessed anger and grief about the fact my H had been in a relationship and believed himself to be totally in love with another woman.
We briefly talked about it the other day— he suggested maybe we each see the MC on our own for the next two weeks and we can figure out what to do after that— but I’m not sure we’ll even be able to do that (maybe over the phone?). I said maybe we should just find time to talk about it in the evenings after the kids go to bed and he said “can we get through all this coronavirus crisis first and then deal with it?” (smh)
I’ve been thinking about the A more than I like to. He definitely seems to be in a less “precarious” place than we was in the first couple of weeks after ending the A, when he was saying things like “you won.” I’d found some sappy Spotify playlists with love and break-up songs on it that were shared with one other person (the AP), which really drives me bonkers as H and I share a Spotify playlist and so since I figured out what they were, I now scroll down every time I open the app to see if they’re still there. (They are.) When I’d asked him about them a few weeks ago at MC, he was very much in the “I don’t want to do anything because you told me to” mode and was upset that I was focusing on things like the playlists rather than his presence (I’m here, I’m wearing my ring, I’m at MC with you… these are the things that really matter, I could delete the Spotify playlist and make you happy but it won’t mean anything, blah blah blah).
When we had the conversation about how to handle the MC a couple of days ago, I said there were things he knew he could do to make it better, and he said what? I mentioned the playlists and he looked surprised and a little embarrassed and said, I had forgotten about those, I never listen to them, I can delete them, there are just a few songs on there I like that I’d kind of like to move somewhere else. I didn’t say anything in response.
Generally, I feel like I just need to continue to be patient and like the MC and my DB coach have said, focus on our friendship for now. I want to keep reminding myself to focus on what I can control (myself) and what I can’t (H plus the craziness in the world right now) and also to be grateful for all the progress we have made. I recently re-read some of my journal from the fall and the pain and confusion was so deep… I am definitely in a much better place now than I was then, and I think about what if the coronavirus situation had hit when he was still in the A and how awful that would have been…. so I’m grateful for that, even if we aren’t where I want to be, yet.
So. I know what I want and what I’m not seeing from him yet… and I also definitely see small positive change in the right direction these last five weeks. GALing seems impossible right now. I got the girls to do online yoga with me (H actually joined in too), which was nice, yesterday we both did a ton of yardwork and today H spent all afternoon making an amazing bolognese sauce. The grocery stores in our area are out of flour so no more baking
We’ll be WFH and no school until at least April 30.
Anyway, been thinking about the wonderful community here and hoping people are staying safe and healthy. virtual hugs.
How's it going? It's weird coming back here occasionally. It sounds like your situation is progressing okay. Remember I told you I had a similar affair to your husband's. It takes time to put them behind you. Nothing to do with you. From what you describe, he seems to be doing well. Cut him some slack, he'll get there. Glad to see everything is okay. Stay safe.
May, it sounds like you guys are doing relatively well. You have all the time in the world to just take things slow and see how your H progresses. I’m happy for you that you are able to see things with PMA.
And if you guys are in lockdown and things are still going well, that says something about your relationship doesn’t it? Lol!!
Thinking about you! I keep wondering how every one being trapped together is effecting every ones sitch. And I miss the time to chat with every one....ugh these people are around all the time
Hope you're doing well.
Hi guys,
I miss you all too. It seems so weird that now that the only way to connect with people is online it is so much harder to get to this community! I think it is because we are all together 24-7 now and I am never, ever alone. I am kind of terrified that one day I'll slip and my H will find this site... not that I've said anything here I wouldn't want to say to him directly, but I feel like this site is MINE and something I just don't want to share with anyone but you guys.
Things are good between us. I feel like we've all had a good attitude and are making the best of the situation. Breaking out more board games, watch a movie every night (we all now take turns choosing since getting everyone to agree on the same movie was ridiculously hard), cooking together or taking turns, reading, yoga, and WFH. The problem is more me... I am still thinking about the A way more than I want to, and he really doesn't want to talk about it. He feels like we have this whole stretch of quarantine ahead of us and doesn't want the additional stress of digging into the whole A situation. Can't we wait till it is over? And I *know* I am still in a DB-ing situation and should focus on myself and not on him... but he just still isn't showing the contrition he is supposed to in order for us to really move forward and start working on M2.0.
I talked with the MC on my own this past week, which wasn't really all that helpful. Takeaways included him saying "well, you don't actually know he is NC with AP" which totally threw me for a loop and led to an R talk that evening in which H got kind of annoyed at MC, felt it wasn't fair for him to say things like that without H there to "defend" himself, and underscored the reality that H is simply not ready to really engage with the fact of the A and how it has affected me. I think MC is trying to continue to get me to focus on what I can/can't control and not trying to push the timeline any faster than it is prepared to go on its own (again patience and letting go of control not exactly my forte, though getting better at it through this whole sitch).
On the upside, in our R talk (even though it was uncomfortable) we did come to an agreement about what would happen if AP reached out-- H agreed to not answer the phone and to talk to me about it before responding. H was still so focused on himself through the whole conversation-- it took me laying out "OK, think of it like this. She calls, you don't answer. I feel decent about it even if angry she called because you didn't pick up and talked to me about it first. Like we are partners in this. She calls, you answer (he had said he might answer because the only reason she might call is if it were an emergency) and then I'm super pissed. I'm your wife, I'm the one you should be most worried about feeling decent since I'm the one you're living with..." and he said, yes, OK, I see that. I agree. But even his whole body hunches and cramps over when we start talking about the A at all and he is just all over the place. (Yes, I know a few weeks ago you guys were like why are you talking about what happens if she calls because of coronavirus and STOP DOING THAT.... and here I went again.)
So... it has now been close to 3 months since I found out about the extent of the A. Six weeks now since he returned from his trip and he has been NC with her since then (I believe it, also because there is literally no way he could possibly be in contact with her for the past two weeks at least since we've been together 24-7 and talking, looking at each others' phones/computers, etc). He feels he is here and being the best dad and husband he can be. Which is true. He really is. But what should I be doing? I am having a hard time not thinking about the A and AP, maybe partially because we are together all the time and it keeps hitting me over and over that he had a relationship with another woman, and isn't so, so sorry and saying it was a huge mistake and he is so thankful that I stood for the M.
I feel like I *should* just continue to focus on myself and what I can control (me) and the friendship between us. But can we get stuck in the friend zone? We have slept together a couple of times but not as much as during that weird (maybe hysterical bonding) period after the last BD. I can't really act mysterious or be on my own at all. Any suggestions are welcome.
Do you guys have you own time together doing things when the kids are in bed? I think quality family time needs to be distinguished from quality romantic time.
When you say your H is not ready to engage in A talk and how it affected you, have you been honest and forthcoming with him about your feelings about A when those feelings come up? I understand that he might not be ready to talk about it, but is listening and validating YOUR feelings too much to ask from him right now? I don’t know if that would be the right button to push, but if I were you I’d have a whole lot of build up resentment from trying to refrain myself from letting my feelings known because he is not ready. It is completely reasonable that you are still haunted by the thoughts of AP, esp with H in your face everyday.
Hugs!!
May - kudos to you for being so strong in all of this.
I wonder if the whole feeling trapped piece of the virus is working against him in that - he doesn't want to fully admit the extent that the A hurt you because he can't escape being confronted with it, so is just putting it on hold indefinitely? (I am not doing the best at using my words here but hopefully you understand what I am trying to say).
I am sure it is hard to get emotional distance from a lot of this stuff when there aren't regular markers of time like certain social things, etc. And probably A LOT of free time to think about the A on your part just because it's there and harder to get any kind of distance from.
Re: friendzone - do you think you're subconsciously holding back b/c of A stuff inside? Or do you think he is? Or you both are?
Thanks, guys
Wooba-- we do have time together after the kids go to bed, usually a couple of hours. Sometimes quality like drinking beers and chatting, sometimes we are both on our computers working or he's watching TV and I'm reading, probably most often somewhere in between the two-- watching a show together with drinks, some chatting. He is way more solicitous of what I want to do now than he was (during the A he would just turn on the TV to whatever he wanted to watch; now he picks things he thinks I'll like, asks me what I want to do, etc). We have been spending some time planning for the big summer trip together which I know he really enjoys.
For me, I don't know that I've been honest and forthcoming when the feelings arise. Most of the time it is something that comes up during the day that makes me think about it but the kids are around etc and it wouldn't be appropriate to say something. But it is definitely on my mind much more than his. For instance, yesterday we had this conversation about what restaurants we will want to go back to first when everything opens up. He mentioned one that we'd gone to for lunch on Valentines Day a couple of years (or more) ago, and I immediately wondered if he'd been in the A when we went there. I asked him what year was that? with the A 100% on my mind (I honestly can't remember if it was two or three years ago) and he responded, I think a year ago? totally innocently and it made me realize he wasn't thinking about the A at all in the context of that lunch, whereas it comes up for me all the time.
I think I probably haven't brought it up in a "I'm having a hard time and having these feelings" kind of way, which he might respond to well and listen and validate. I think every time we've discussed it without the MC there, it has the feeling of some pressure on him, either why did he do it or what he should/could be doing now. I don't think that comes necessarily from me-- he immediately goes there. The other night it kind of came up sideways, I didn't want to talk about it and left the room. He let me be for a few minutes than came and hugged me. We didn't talk about it but I did feel better and we went back to what we'd been doing before.
Sam Cal-- I definitely think there is truth to his not wanting to engage with how the A affected me because of the situation. When we do talk about it, he just gets so defensive and upset. I told him I didn't think he could fully process my pain right now because it would be too painful for him. He said OK, then maybe now isn't a good time for us to get into this. Not sure if he thought there was any truth to what I was saying or simply using it as another reason to push off any real discussions. He has said that he thinks I need to stay sleeping (I'm finally back to sleeping a full night, which hasn't been the case pretty much throughout this whole thing) and he is worried that if we dig back into this I'll regress to not sleeping at night. I can't tell how much of this is truly caring about me and how I am doing or the fact that I'm not fun to live with if I don't get enough sleep. I think a combination of both to be honest.
I think he is worried about how much quarantine time we have in front of us still and is really worried about how it would go if we weren't getting along, and worried that talking about the A will dredge up bad feelings. I guess what he isn't fully understanding is that those feelings are right there under the surface for me. And yes, much more time on my hands with him right in my face all day long to think about the A. It is almost harder right now because he is being so great in every other aspect of our lives together, kind and jokey and thoughtful, acts of service all day long, to look at him and realize that he had cheated on me for so long.
Re the friend zone-- I'm not holding back but I'm not pushing either. I told him at the end of the R talk night that I still wanted to have sex and he picked me up and put my over his shoulder and went to the bedroom.... so that ended up fun... but I'm generally not really wanting to be the instigator since I don't fully believe he is back to desiring me the way I would want to be desired. This is a change from three months ago after the last BD, when I really felt like I was interested in sex for the sake of exploring my own sexuality and he was the most available partner and I didn't really give an F what he was thinking, except for some satisfaction in knowing all the stuff he'd said about never being able to have sex with me again was total BS.
Now, I still have that desire for myself, but it is complicated by the fact that I do care more now about how he is feeling (or not feeling) and it doesn't feel sexy to push myself on someone who isn't really interested back. (of course, this is what he's told me he felt for years with me, and I fully get the irony of the situation. But it still isn't fun.) And I do think back to him saying those things about not being attracted to me, and then the fact that he slept with AP, and then I'm just not that interested unless he makes the first move. Which happens occasionally but not as much as I'd like in this new space where I am with desire.
His primary LL is physical touch. I talked about this a bit with the MC in my solo session, and he said he thinks what is identified as primary LL sometimes has more to do with what is missing than anything else. (He said he doesn't really use the LLs in his practice.) Regardless, I know that PT is important to my H and always has been. We used to trade backrubs every night back before kids, and this week I suggested we start that back up, since we can't go get massages and it is a small thing we can do for each other during this crazy time. He was a little weird about it at first but we're now doing it regularly, and it is so worth it from my end, even if he was weirded out about the original suggestion. I think it might be because giving me backrubs used to be a precursor to him initiating sex and (I'm not proud of this) in the depths of the SSM he would start giving me a backrub and I would say I'm not having sex with you! and he would say OK. I'll just rub your back. Ugh. Typing that out made me feel horrible.
Anyway. I don't know if that is part of it or if he's thinking of AP (who he told me at one point loved to give him massages and didn't ask for anything in return, giant eye-roll, if that isn't proof enough that it was a total fantasy I don't know what is!) but it is part of the reason I want to dig into the infected garbage of the A and get it all out into the sunlight and lysol the crap out of it. Otherwise every stupid little thing in our R will be tinged by this worry of what is going on in the other person's mind. He doesn't like to admit it but he thinks it too... he asks what I'm thinking, looks at me all the time to gauge my reaction to things happening on the TV, very very curious about what I'm doing every time I'm on my computer.
Well, that was a lot longer response than I intended it to be. And I feel badly because I know a lot of you guys are dealing with far more difficult situations than I am. But I really appreciate the ability to reach out to you all and know you care and are there.
Hi, may. I just want to say don’t feel bad—all these situations are difficult and svck in their own way. Sometimes I leap ahead for a sec and just think, How could I ever trust my H again? And then I push that question away because there’s no point in worrying about that now. My point is that side of R seems impossibly difficult to me, and I’m just glad you have support in trying to navigate your experience of it, from MC and here and a little bit from H, hopefully more there as time goes on and he is able to come to terms with what he did and how it has affected you and the M. I don’t have any answers, just hugs.
May do you know in your own mind what it is you want to discuss re the A? I know you have mentioned previously, for example, wanting to know how they communicated. Do you have a list of things in your mind that you feel you need to know? (Not suggesting you post them here of course!) Have you written them down and considered them one by one?
Where does your MC stand on disclosure (as in should it happen inside or outside of therapy, and what is the timeline for having those conversations)? Is he leading you down the path to structured disclosure? He no doubt recognises H’s reluctance in divulging details and the potential reasons why (such as protecting your feelings, fear that you will never be able to forgive, shame, embarrassment, previous lies being uncovered, etc). Im just wondering how he sees disclosure happening in an environment that’s safe for both of you?
Re the friend zone and worrying about pushing yourself on someone who doesn’t want you back, this is the exact place I was in. So ironic that H was having sex with me out of obligationlast year (or simply rejecting me), after all those years of me doing the same to him. It was impossible for me to navigate and in my case his heart wasn’t interested in rekindling desire.
Because you have pulled back recently, do you think H is worried all over again that you have lost interest and is fearful of you rejecting him all over again? I think you did a great thing telling him you wanted sex...and you got a response. Does he need that reassurance from you that you’re not going to reject him?
Sending hugs x
Don’t feel bad at all!! It’s usually pretty depressing here so it’s nice to see someone moving towards the right direction!!!
Thanks, Cardinal and Wooba... glad I can be helpful in any little way!
Pommy... At the advice of the MC I wrote down my primary questions and went over them with him last week. He recommended not getting too deep into details on the physical part and I said I no longer want details on the emotional part-- both not really helpful for me at this point. What I do want to know is how they communicated, if he ever saw her outside of her city and another one that he told me about, where and when; and what mementos does he have of their R (the Spotify playlists for instance, still technically following her on IG though I know he is never on it)-- but does he have letters from her? Emails? Gifts? I want to know what they are (and then destroy them
)
MC had some initial suggestions, like I give my written list to H and he can answer them when he is comfortable. H did not like that-- felt it was too formal. H doesn't even know my questions at this point besides the "how did they communicate" one and gets so uncomfortable that it is dropped in MC and I haven't even brought up outside of MC-- I've brought up that there are questions I want answered but not what they are. MC said in our 1-1 last week that we need to get to a point where H hands me a bunch of blank checks that represent questions I want answered and I can turn them in and he answers them. But we are so far from that... I am not seeing when it happens yet at this point.
Re the sex-- I think it is possible that H has interest, sometimes, that he isn't acting on because of that fear. I can sense it sometimes but it feels so tentative like it is better to let it start to grow on its own rather than give it too much attention and risk him pulling back altogether... like a tiny little flame that could get blown out if you aren't careful. I think he knows intellectually that I have desire for him but you're right in that I don't know that he feels that emotionally. And I'm not really ready to talk about it too much with him right now if we can't talk about the other parts of the A and address all of that. I'm not sure if half-hearted sex is helpful right now or harmful, do you know what I mean?
Maybe best to just keep on the track of trying to connect where we can as much as possible and being grateful for the fact that we are where we are in the midst of all this craziness. It could be sooooooo much worse. Honestly even if our R was like it was before the A we'd probably be having more difficulties with the quarantine situation than we are right now and our communication (except for in/re the A) is a lot better because we've been working on it.
He had a call with his IC this morning, and I asked him if he wanted to talk to the MC this week... he said to be honest not really, but would if I wanted him to. I'm not so sure if it makes sense to continue right now or just take a break (unless things change). I'm not really super interested in another solo session with him, and with the kids it will definitely be complicated for us to talk to him together, though I'm sure we could make it work if necessary. Any thoughts?
Hi May
it's been a while since I've checked in with you, but I think being true to yourself and your own needs and finding an appropriate and timely way to communicate them, and then living your boundary in response to whatever your H does next, is probably essential right now.
For you, it might look like this,
'I'm committed to making our marriage work and that means attending MC together and working towards you giving me full disclosure on your infidelity and us developing our sexual relationship. I'm making an appointment for us later this week.'
He will either go or not go. He'll either start being honest with you and himself, or he won't.
Given the situation with lockdown, your boundaries may look practically different, but perhaps putting a time-limit on it in your mind might help?
My H strung me along for a while early in our situation with a deadline by which time he said he'd be ready to work on our relationship. All it did was keep me as plan B, and keep him from actually having to make any changes or develop any self awareness. When the deadline passed, I moved into a strict 'going dark' mode - I accepted that whatever he said or didn't say, he wasn't actually ready to work on our relationship in a way that was meaningful or acceptable to me. I took concrete action which involved no longer inviting him into the house, no longer accepting or initiating any affection, ignoring any communication which wasn't necessary and about the kids, and living as if I was single in terms of my finances and plans for my work and future. It took - I think - about three months before he decided that actually, he was ready to put the effort in. And while it has by no means perfect, and I think we moved to living together too quickly, I am sure it was my living my boundaries and refusing to be in any form of relationship with someone who wasn't taking clear action to improve it, that turned our situation around.
What would living your boundaries look like in terms of concrete changes to your own behaviour?
Hi Alison,
'I'm committed to making our marriage work and that means attending MC together and working towards you giving me full disclosure on your infidelity and us developing our sexual relationship. I'm making an appointment for us later this week.'
I like how you've framed this. I know if I said this he'd say yes, let's go-- he's had no problem with going to the MC, but right now just doesn't want to talk to him alone unless I want him to (in which case he said he'd do it). We can't both do it right now with the lockdown.
I know that he would want to add his own things he wants to work on/through with the MC, which seems fair. The things he's brought up in the past that he wants to work on with the MC would be understanding why he did this in the first place (which the MC has steered us away from, saying right now he doesn't think it is helpful to focus on the past) and his own feelings about the SSM and why I didn't want sex with him for all those years (which, to think of it, the MC has also steered us away from, for the same reasons. Maybe the MC is trying to make us sit in the discomfort of where we are right now and in his own way is challenging H to at least acknowledge that I'm not OK. He's used the term trauma and said it is normal for me to have these questions and feelings, while at the same time acknowledging that H isn't ready to open up in that way at this point.)
I can pretty much guarantee if I said I wanted to work on us developing our sexual R in MC, he'd say OK but he still harbors anger towards me for it, and some level of frustration over me now wanting sex *now.* I think we both also want to re-develop how we make decisions together such that we both feel heard-- I feel like this is going quite well right now, but maybe we are both being especially solicitous of the other right now and I doubt that will last forever. He also has said in the past that I either have more control in our R or want to control him in our R, and when we get to the other side of all of this I want to have dealt with these kind of dynamics too, whether or not they were related to his infidelity.
However. For me, I want to deal with the infidelity questions now because I'm still angry and hurt about it, and I feel like if I let it sit for awhile and then dig back into the wound, it will hurt more than just ripping the bandaid off/cleaning out the pus now. The MC challenges me on this, says I don't know how I'll feel in the future and I also need to accept that H is simply not on my timeline for this part. H *is* willing to work on other parts of our R, like communication, teamwork, support for each other, connecting-- just doesn't want to talk about the A right now. Do I feel strongly enough that my questions need to be answered NOW enough to draw that as a boundary line, and we don't work on anything until he's at that place? I don't know. I don't think so.
Given the situation with lockdown, your boundaries may look practically different, but perhaps putting a time-limit on it in your mind might help?
We do have at least another month of lockdown where we live, probably longer. Maybe my timeline is to give it this month without pushing on the conversations, maybe not going to MC, and once we get on the other side of the lockdown see where he is in terms of opening up about the A. We also have this big trip planned for July, and I definitely feel like on the other side of THAT, which will be more than the six months the MC originally told me to chill for-- if H isn't ready then to dig in and be transparent, then I question it ever happening. Maybe that is my time limit.
Because you have pulled back recently, do you think H is worried all over again that you have lost interest and is fearful of you rejecting him all over again? I think you did a great thing telling him you wanted sex...and you got a response. Does he need that reassurance from you that you’re not going to reject him?
Pommy, I thought a lot about this. The last couple of nights it has felt like maybe... but then I didn't really make a move. Last night, though, it felt like maybe, maybe, maybe, he didn't initiate, then as we lay in bed I finally said "I can't sleep" and touched his arm and that was all it took. It really felt like he was waiting for me to make the first move because he totally pounced on my tiny little move. Anyway, I'm glad I did it and it really does help us both to feel more connected. I feel like we're moving more from the straight physical just sex from January into something more connected, though of course that could just be how I feel. But he does little things that are sweet and caring that definitely feel more romantic than before. It is all just moving so slowly.
With all this going on, I wonder if for my own mental health trying to take a break from worrying about it and just BE, be grateful for all that I have and my family has right now is the best route?
I think gratitude and resting and waiting is a good idea, May. They are boundaries you might want to put in place that just aren't practically possible right now. There might be things that you both want - like a joint conversation with the MC - that just aren't on the cards. Cutting yourself and the situation some slack sounds like a good idea.
But I also think it is a good idea to make decisions based on what is best for you, and what you want, without second guessing what your H will do or say or make of it. You know him, sure, but basing your own actions on what you imagine he might say or do next is fruitless at best, and manipulative - even if meant with the best heart - at worst.
But I also think it is a good idea to make decisions based on what is best for you, and what you want, without second guessing what your H will do or say or make of it. You know him, sure, but basing your own actions on what you imagine he might say or do next is fruitless at best, and manipulative - even if meant with the best heart - at worst.
I'm not basing my actions on what I think he would say or do-- I was more just trying to lay out there where I think he is in all of this, and all things he's said to me directly over the last couple of months. The only place I think I'm trying to mindread is to assess his interest in more romantic/sexual behaviors, which I think is complicated by the past SSM and so may not be as straightforward as just letting him initiate if he's interested. (Plus, if I am focusing on what *I* want... this is a big part of what I do want, for me. I mean we are locked in here, right?!? Might as well make the best of it!
)
Anyway, I do think to the extent I can, letting all this worry about the A and what questions he has or hasn't answered (and when he will or won't be ready to address them) go is best for now, through this whole lockdown situation. I can't make him be ready to talk about it and I can only control my own actions and thoughts-- so focusing on being grateful for what we do have and how fortunate we are in this entire situation is where I want to be.
I feel like I was able to successfully do this when we were in that crazy limbo in January and it was really good for my peace of mind-- so if I can find that same place now, I think it will be good for me again. And the truth is that I *am* so, so grateful for where I am right now, even in the midst of this worldwide crisis. This time with the children and together as a family is a gift, even as I feel some guilt that I can take joy from this situation that is so devastating for others. I just read Wayfarer's post on Core's page about refocusing on the self and not trying to control or change the other person's behavior, or getting impatient because your S isn't on your same timeline-- that was really helpful for me. WF, you are so good at this!
Hello my sweet May,
You don't know how much I wish I could sit down and have glass of wine and hash out this weird phase in our lives with you via video of course lol. This limbo but not quite limbo thing is soooo beyond annoying with this whole being trapped together. I find myself having questions about the AP that we haven't really hashed out. Honestly it's more about their past, the times they tried this before and it failed because I just really need to understand the fantasy better, because it still doesn't make sense. He's flat out said I'm better in bed at this point and I'm so confused because given that on paper I'm better in every other aspect too. But I know isn't the time. He's gotta open up and say this is what he wants before I'm willing to open that door. And even then being stuck I just don't want to push when we can't escape each other.Same with sex. Before we got locked in I was like ok if I'm just a roommate you want to have sex with it let's do this. I'm the one with the high drive. Let's see if you can keep up. But then this.....and I'm feeling like I'm not so sure about banging my "roommate" who's still kind of in love with someone else when I have no where to go to get away. But I see these girls bonding with their dad again. And regaining trust and and faith in him. Him taking interest in who they are and what they are into right now again. The man they used to know and I just bite my tongue. And seeing them with him makes it so much easier. I take the physical touch when I can have it. And the bed partner when I can have it. And my friend when I can have it and just remain grateful that if nothing else these girls will have their dad back even if I don't ever get my husband back. He was pretty clear today that he's not planning on looking at places any time in the near future. And for as much as we're preached at for not accepting crumbs it's all I have. We are a working family unit. We are working as roommates, as friends, as friends with benefits and maybe this will be our road to recovery. Maybe it's just the last of days. Either way we're starting the next chapter sweetly and in a much better place than we were 2 months ago. All I have in this right now is the little bits of gratitude. I hope you can focus on that too. As hard as it is. And I know how d@mn hard it is. So many hugs May.
Hi guys,
Just wanted to check in. Not too much has changed since I last updated here... it's now been nine weeks since he came back from his trip and has been NC with AP. I thought I'd kind of measure where we are. The positives: I'm 100 percent positive he isn't in contact with her anymore. We have been together 24-7 now for going on four straight weeks (literally maybe a handful of hours during that stretch we've been apart, he's gone surfing a couple times and the grocery store a couple of times) and I'm frankly amazed that we have been getting along so well through all of this. We've fought a little here and there but nothing too dramatic and are able to repair quickly and well. I feel like we're having fun, both together on our own and with the kids, and both been supportive of the other person with work/family stuff. I'd say things feel better, we feel closer, little things like physical touch have started to pick back up again, he'll make breakfast and lunch and sometimes dinner when I'm busier with work than he is, will make me a cocktail, sit down and chat, get the kids ready for distance learning in the mornings. All and all I feel grateful for where we are, though we aren't where I want to be, really, yet.
I haven't pushed R talks and have been able to mostly let my angst about the A go, for now. It is still there. It has come up a few times and I've told him I feel it is like a cancer/abscess, needs to be dealt with, the sooner the better so I/we can heal. He hasn't freaked out or gotten super defensive/angry like he had been, maybe because I've just stated how I feel and let it go.
I'd asked him to talk to his IC about some stuff and he did, said she was helpful and gave him some things to think about and work on. I asked if he wanted to talk about it and he didn't.
Wayfarer, we sooooo need a drink together. xx
May where did 9 weeks go!! That’s a long time and good to hear that things are heading in the right direction. It is an incredibly testing time, living in each other’s pockets. At the same time, you seem to have space around you to breathe - in your head if nothing else! I can understand still having the unanswered questions about the A but it sounds like you are doing a great job of boxing that off temporarily until the timing is better to open up discussions. It will be at the back of his mind too, because he knows he can’t escape from it, that it will need to be tabled one day. He is healing too (as much as he doesn’t deserve to, lol) but you being supportive and not pressuring him will be helping him, and hopefully make him realise what an incredible woman you are for standing by him and giving him time and space. You are so strong.
Sending hugs x
But May, how is the baking? Haha. I don’t understand time anymore at all, but I remember saying something like I guess this is when patience really comes in, and May, you’ve got that. I think it’s amazing and probably really helpful for both of you at this time that you can acknowledge the A will still need to be addressed, but then let it go, and that he is getting better at hearing that and not reacting. This lockdown time could be like a pressure cooker for one or both of you, but it sounds like neither of you are letting it become that. (((May)))
Thanks Pommy and Cardinal! Baking... I've been holding off because of all the stuffing of my face I did the first few weeks of this and I'm just not sure I can handle the temptation of bread and brownies and whatever else in the house. But, I was thinking of making pasta and my younger daughter really wants to make brownies, so... I"m sure I'll end up there soon. H made chocolate chip cookie bars with her last week and we snarfed them all down in a few days.
Patience... has always been my weakness. I am not a patient person, generally... so this is both good for me to practice patience and giving up control and letting things BE-- all things I am terrible at-- but is also so, so hard. I will say it is easier for me to slide back into the patience/just BEING mindset now than it was previously, thanks to DBing.
I think I've been better these last couple of weeks at setting aside the A feelings than I had been, but they're still there.. I'm just better at feeling them and letting them go before I take it out on H. I've been thinking less about AP and scenes of H with her (which are awful of course) and more about hurtful things that H said to me during the course of the A.
For instance, when he was in the A, my H kept saying that I had this outdated idea of M, that just because we made these promises to each other all those years ago shouldn't mean we're stuck forever, blah blah blah. I keep thinking back to that. I definitely agree that love is a choice, one you have to make every day, and of course you shouldn't be stuck in a bad or abusive marriage just because your young dumb self said I do. But. At the same time I did mean those things I said when we got married and I thought he meant them too. Looking at him today, listening to him, being with him-- I just have the hardest time reconciling the H that I thought he was, and the H he is acting like today, with the person who lied and cheated and broke that promise we made to each other. He was selfish, weak, immature. Was he always that way? Was it some combination of character weakness with the MLC-like situation that he couldn't handle?
I feel like he was hurting and depressed (and I know I do bear some responsibility for the issues we had, SSM etc) but he took the easy way out and came up with all these justifications for why he acted the way he did. I feel like when I was in the depths of the A or limbo or whatever, I felt like I could handle anything as long as he didn't drag the children into this by leaving. As long as he was just hurting me, I could handle it. NBD. Now that that particular crisis is over, I'm finding myself drawn back to the hurtful things he said during the A and having a harder and harder time dealing with them. I think I packed them all away in order to deal with the day-to-day insanity, and now I get to deal with them.
Maybe I won't be able to forgive him. Then what? I definitely know I can't if we don't ever talk about it or deal with the A. I know that I just need to focus on myself, what I can control, and when/if he's ready to accept the enormity of what he did and talk about it, we can start working on it. We'll get there when we get there, or we won't. And if we never do, then I have more decisions to make. I know he's on a different timeline than I am. Right now, all he can do is be present, be a good dad and partner. He simply can't yet deal with the rest of it.
One thing that was incredibly frustrating during the A is that he made up this ridiculous narrative and honed it with his IC that I dictated our entire lives together, that when we first met he was young and dumb and ate microwave meals. So basically everything in our lives, the fact that we cook real food and drink wine and eat out at restaurants was all dictated and controlled by me. This was infuriating and made me crazy, because it is patently untrue, and in fact all the biggest changes and decisions in our lives have been at least 50% if not more dictated by him-- moving across the country, house purchases, moving back, etc.
Anyway, he packed this particular narrative away but then the other day it came up again-- he was doing something in the kitchen, I tried to help (honestly, 100% to help, I didn't give a $hit how he actually did it but just got out the garbage for him) and he trotted it back out, I was trying to control how he cooked. We ended up talking about it later and I asked him to talk with his IC about it, that he needs to go back and examine this BS narrative he made up and challenge it, that in fact the very behaviors he complains about with me are actually behaviors he tends to display himself (he gets annoyed with how I load the dishwasher sometimes, for instance, because apparently there is a "right" way to do it in his mind and I'm not doing it that way).
To his credit, he listened, he didn't argue, he talked with her about it, said she'd given him some things to think about and work on, and I haven't heard it since. So that did give me a little hope, he is willing to listen and work on some of his own issues that make him a less-than-perfect H... maybe one day he will be ready to confront this huge thing he did that make him a really $hitty H. I think he just has such a hard time seeing himself as a person that would do such a terrible thing that he either wants to pretend it didn't happen or pretend it wasn't so bad and was justified. I wonder if this is something he can slowly start to deal with, or if one day all of a sudden it will hit him like a ton of bricks. Anyone know?
I don't consider what we're doing piecing, because I think we have to be both ready to deal with the A before we're there. I guess we are in reconciliation, since he ended the A (now almost 10 weeks ago) and has been explicit and unwavering that he is choosing the M ever since he made that decision (about 3 months ago). We are having more regular sex, mostly initiated by me, though he's an enthusiastic participant, and initiating is still a 180 that feels new for me, and something I'm doing for me, not for him or for any reaction from him. I don't know. I keep reading piecing threads about it being the hardest part. I believe it.
Oh May, I have so many thoughts, and if I'm very honest I've had a cocktail so I might be verbose. I apologize if I go down a rabbit hole.
About reliving things H said -
To revisit different parts of the trauma I believe is normal. I am reliving a few moments differently than I did when I was immediately removed from my sitch. My past 5 weeks I have revisited moments that I had initially buried in an effort to just get through. I just frame it as my mind doing the work when it is intended. We process different parts at different intervals and I think that is very, very normal. Just know that it's common. I think you will examine your sitch both in pieces and as a whole, and jump in and out of each perspective.
For instance, when he was in the A, my H kept saying that I had this outdated idea of M...
So, this is interesting to me as a D person. I'm finding that most people younger than me are poly. I was in a very strictly monogamous relationship. And I think that long term, I want the monogamy. It's what I think works best for me. But now that I'm single, I am considering the other side and other options because I never really have. I mean REALLY think about it. What assumptions am I making and bringing forward? What are my fears? Are they legitimate, or something I've brought over from a value system that isn't even mine? Why do I think monogamy is best for me, and polyamory not?
When I was newly single I reconsidered my sexuality. I thought it was important. Maybe I should be dating men? I mean, when was the last time I seriously considered that? And after much reflection I can safely say that yep- sorry - but I'm definitely gay
But I needed to revisit my assumptions.
So, what my point in this is that your H may want to be reconsidering everything he had accepted in his life to learn who he truly is. And it may sound insane that he was questioning something as fundamental as your marriage. But what if everyone was constantly reconsidering our assumptions? I think we'd have much better communication, better outcomes. We'd be authentic, and less likely to hurt people we love. But it shouldn't have been done in the way he did. I'm advocating for consistent self check-ins, and subsequent communication with partners.
Maybe there are other assumptions about yourself you're reconsidering. Stating you were in a SSM, for instance. How you saw yourself before (perhaps as a mother?) vs who you see yourself as now (a woman? a sexual being? gosh forbid - a sexual being with wants that might be a little "frowned" upon in "polite" society but are actually the most normal thing in the world but honestly it turns out no one talks authentically about their own sex life so how would you know that?)
side bar: in my own life I'm insisting that I talk authentically with my friends about my sexuality and finances and other "taboo" subjects. I have found it has greatly strengthened our friendships and I feel like I'm not the only one. It turns out we really all do struggle with the same issues, just privately.
Maybe I won't be able to forgive him.
Don't write your own future before you have lived it.
And lastly, regarding your setting aside your feelings about the A. Your attempt at patience is good. I'm not saying bury things under the rug, these things won't go away if you don't address them. But you don't have to address them today. You really don't. Look at how far off we are from V-Day, and you are still being patient. What a feat! You can keep doing that. Because the progress is slow, but it is progress. And I think that your part in all of this is to meet your H "halfway" by giving him time. He has all the other work to do - which is a lot. Like, a LOT. Your work is hard because it's not all yours to do. It's dependent on another person, so you don't have control. H's work might be harder - he has to build back who he is as an entire person, and figure it out along the way.
Hi Yail,
I always love your posts. They make me think.
Re assumptions and reconsidering them-- I agree with you. I'm not sure, though, that going into the A H was truly reconsidering the idea of M/monogamy and whether it was still the right choice for him. I think he was depressed, starved for affection and validation in a lot of areas, and found this young woman who wanted and needed him, wanted his advice, thought he was so great, etc etc. And without saying anything to me, he decided that because I wasn't interested in sex with him, I therefore no longer loved him, and he should see what it was like to pursue this R with the AP. He told me later he was almost testing himself by opening up the opportunity with the AP, and the fact that he was attracted to her meant that he must no longer be in love with me. And he deserved love, blah blah blah.
After he got himself involved in the A, he tried to post-hoc justify it by saying maybe M was an outdated social construct, that millennials don't believe in M, etc.-- not as a thoughtful reevaluation of himself but as an excuse to justify his own behavior. I know he did spend some time with his IC trying to figure out if he was non-monogamous or would be a serial cheater and they decided no, he was a monogamist at heart (having switched his romantic affections from me to the AP). I think the thing he was unable to really figure out (and one of the reasons he ended up staying) was how to reconcile the "best friend" relationship with me and how that fit into everything. Once it became clear to him that he would lose that with me if he continued to pursue the A, that was one of his big deciding factors in ending the A.
The thing I think is so strange is that the best friends/partners relationship is such a big part of the idea of a marriage and monogamy, to me. That there is this one person who you can totally be yourself with, who gets you, who is your teammate in this giant crazy world, and the "in love" part is just a tiny piece of that. Maybe I would feel differently if I had my own A and got to experience that "in love" feeling all over again. And we both have friends (me more than him, TBH... I actually think this was also part of the problem for him, maybe a problem for men more generally) that we can be honest with and have meaningful and interesting conversations with, that help us through the hard times. Yet he is the person who has seen me at my absolute worst and still shows up for me every day (or did... and still does... this is the hard part for me right now, reconciling all of this). I know that even with my very best friends I'm still not going to totally lay it all out there like I do with him.
I am definitely re-evaluating some of my own assumptions about myself, for the better, I think. The realization that I could be a mom AND have a sex drive was a big one. Also, that I'm not perfect, I have areas I want to work on for myself, that I haven't treated my H the way I would want to be treated. Those were biggies for me, being able to take responsibility for my side of the damage to our R.
Anyway, thanks for the post... still thinking about it. Made pasta, sourdough bread, and chocolate truffles this week!
Hey my dear May,
Just a few things for thought seeing as how self reflective you are about all of this.
-Patience, my god, patience. This has been and continues to be an exercise in patience for me and I think all women like us. Result oriented women are some how built for this, and not built at all for this. Expectations are a b*tch to over come. Especially the time line. How much more efficient would the world be if everyone ran on the time lines we have in our heads....lol. But you have this. You really do.
-I find the A excuses funny. I offered an open marriage. H3ll, it's still on the table. But my H can't handle the idea of me doing what he did, lol. That was a confrontation in the early days. I wonder how your H would've reacted if you would've turned around and said "you know what you're right, let's talk about an open marriage." I kind think that the idea of an other man touching you would've made him "reassess" immediately. The control thing though....
-Control. In my world it's been a double edged sword. In the beginning H claimed he couldn't have a friendship with a woman because I don't trust any of his female friends. Why? Well in reality we all know it wasn't because of the one pathetic reasons he stated. But that reason was the one time I refused a double date with one of his female friends whose divorce wasn't final, and who in a weird turn of events was dating the ex of a a friend of mine, the night before H was supposed to get on a plane for a trip for a week. We had 5 of his female friends at our wedding, and his best female friend stood up in our wedding with my best male friend. I never policed ever who he was with. I policed who I had to spend my time with. He also claimed I controlled the entire trajectory of our relationship. He ever so kindly framed it in a way where I gave him ultimatums throughout the entire relationship. So his only choices were do what I want or lose me. Sound familiar? But I know I was controlling in other ways. I know I like things my way. I know I micromanged things I had absolutely no reason to. But because of these damn stories they made up, it's difficult to navigate what my 180 needs to be and what is the line I need to draw in the sand. You've given me food for though on this one.
You guys seems to still be communicating well and navigating these hurdles fairly efficiently. Obviously you have a long road to go, but it seems like things are still on a good path.
Thinking of you often xoxo
Hi guys,
I'm having some trouble today and would appreciate some advice if anyone is around.
Today is our 13th anniversary (lucky 13!). We have never given each other gifts but have always done something together-- out to dinner, a weekend away (if we could swing it around the time frame, if either of our parents were in town), etc. I woke up this morning just feeling really down. I thought about our last two anniversaries and how we "celebrated" them-- last year was right after the ILYB BD and I had already gotten a babysitter, H at first was like "why are we even doing this" and then when I said fine, I'll cancel, he said "then we'd just be sitting around here feeling awkward" so we ended up going out to dinner.
I've of course thought about that anniversary in the light of now knowing he was having an affair, but this morning was the first time I thought about the anniversary BEFORE and realized he also was having the affair then too. That year was in the depths of us fighting all the time and was actually right before we decided to see a MC. I'd thought about those times in relation to the fact he was in an A and how he was treating me, how we were fighting, etc., but not specifically about our anniversary through the lens of the A. I remember his parents were visiting us then and I told his mom I thought H was depressed and having a MLC. I remember being disappointed we didn't take the opportunity of his parents being in town to go to a hotel for a night (now I know why) and instead we went for a couple's massage and then out to dinner. It wasn't very fun.
The other tradition we always had... but fell apart in the last couple years (again now I understand why) was to pick out a song that represented that year for us, a song we both really loved, usually a love song/ballad. The first was the song we danced to at our wedding, then each year have added one. Usually around our anniversary or a bit after he would put together some possibilities for me to listen to, other years there would be a totally obvious choice. Two years ago, I suggested the Pink song Just Give Me A Reason, he said fine, he didn't seem to care, but I added it to the playlist. (Again. New lens on this. But to me it expressed what I hoped was happening.) Last year, we didn't pick one, but I'd been thinking about Shallow, but we just never had the conversation. This year, I just don't know what to do, if I should bring it up, just let it lie, see if he says anything about it, or not.
We haven't really thought or talked much about our anniversary this year. I woke up when my younger daughter crawled into bed to cuddle; H had an early morning work call. I laid in bed and just thought about all of this and how I should behave today-- do I say something? Let him say it first? After I got up he came in and went in for a kiss and a hug and said happy anniversary. I was startled with the kiss (this hasn't happened for a long time) and ducked it automatically. He started hugging me and said what's wrong? I didn't respond-- he asked if it was our daughter (who was saying mommy come back!) and I said no, he asked again what was wrong, I said I just felt weird. He said OK and hugged me.
Later in the morning he came by and gave me a backrub unsolicited while I was working at my computer and said happy anniversary again. He keeps coming by to check on me and is being sweet, I know he's a little worried about how I feel.
I don't know why I feel so down today. This past week we've had some conversations in which I've shared a little about how I feel, and they've gone much better than in the past. He hasn't gotten defensive and I haven't pushed it. We've had a couple small spats and he's apologized and taken responsibility for his own part (as have I) which feels good.
If I can separate my emotions from the situation, I know all the same things I keep telling myself-- patience (right WF???); things continue to improve between us; while he's not yet opening up to talk about the A that flash of anger and defensiveness has gone; we're actually getting along ridiculously well given all the circumstances; he's showing more and more of both my primary LL (acts of service) and his own (physical touch). So I know I just need to keep patient, stay the course, focus on myself and let go of that which I can't control. But I still feel down.
So... any practical advice on how to handle the actual anniversary today? I'm thinking of just going with the flow and seeing what he does. I don't know that it would be helpful for me to open up about how I'm feeling unless he asks... but I'm pretty sure he will ask unless I act happy. Which I don't really feel at the moment. He has come in twice to just say hi and I can tell he's gauging my responses to see if I'm happy or not... so far I've tried to perk up and act fine.
Here's what I have for you being on the WW side of this and looking at our own anniversary coming up in just shy of 30 days here. Clean slate means clean slate. MR 2.0 means 2.0. Throw your old traditions out the window. Start fresh. He is thinking about you today even if he didn't the last 2 years. He is showing you and telling you. If you keep fighting against it, especially today, you're going to end up in an unnecessary fight. You are totally entitled to the feelings you have surrounding today. And I know you guys haven't worked through the A in totality yet. But I strongly suggest you try to put the weight the A had has on your MR for the last 2 years on the shelf, at least for today. If you truly want to move forward MC or not you will have to let this this go little by little. So just for today take the world off your shoulders Atlas, and enjoy your day. You can pick it back up tomorrow. But for today ask your H how he'd like to celebrate today? Pick something together. This is the very first anniversary of MR 2.0 even if your not 100% there yet. It deserves to be recognized. And if you'd still like to add a song to the list might I suggest: Don't Give Up On Me by Andy Grammer or Let's Make it Better by Anderson .Paak
Hi May,
He's making an effort--saying Happy Anniversary twice, kissing you, giving you a back rub. I think you mentioned one of his fears was that you could never forgive him. Are you happy he's there and trying? If so, I'd reciprocate in some way, even if it's as simple as making a dinner he likes, a scalp/foot massage, watching a grown-up movie with wine, etc. Something to show he's on the right track.
My GF is working through that I dated someone else. She's learning it's okay for it to feel hurt, for her to recognize and let the feeling pass through her, but she can't dwell on it. I don't expect her to pretend to always be happy. I wonder if you can similarly show your life is happier he's returned, even if it doesn't wipe away all the pain, even if he's not talking about the affair so it's not the reconciliation you want yet.
I can imagine that trying to make today about your anniversary to be immensely tough. I see what Wayfarer is saying about 2.0
what about instead of focusing on today being your anniversary in a traditional sense, you instead think of today as just being a really good/fun/focused day with H. No pressure on the traditions or what an anniversary *should* be. Maybe don't worry about the fancy usual things - dinner, back rubs, reminiscing, music.
What can be new? Don't worry about it being a tradition. Just something a little extra in which you attempt to turn towards one another.
Have any jokes you've heard lately you can just walk in and deliver? Even better if they're the kind that make you laugh when telling them - two people laughing is a bonding moment.
Any silly videos you think he'd like on the internet? Go up and show him and say "oh, thought of you and how silly this is".
Be ridiculous. Make a fort out of blankets and pillows and bring a bottle of wine and invite him in to hang out with you for a while. Tell him the pandemic and anniversary had you feeling like a little levity would be nice.
I guess my suggestion is this: Try to find a little way to let him in. Be the initiator in this. But don't worry about the "should" dos of the day. I think he would appreciate the invitation.
Thanks, Wayfinder and CW. I know you're both right. Today is just harder than usual to shake this bummer feeling.
I just looked in the fridge and he put the really good beers in there that he's been saving for awhile. And last night was talking about what he was going to make for dinner tonight, something special (though I think more to do with the fact we got our CSA box yesterday and there were some pretty great ingredients in there).
Wayfinder, the idea of this being the first anniversary of M2.0 really struck me. I guess part of the reason I'm reacting poorly right now is that it doesn't yet feel like we have embarked on M2.0 and I don't feel like we will until we've dug into the A and excised all that poison the best we can.
The last time we saw the MC (holy c**p, now more than two months ago... WOW) and he didn't want to talk about what happened when he broke it off with her in person, he said he felt like I wanted him to burn all the boats and move forward. I was like, right. Duh. He said he just wasn't ready to burn the boats. And I guess I am not ready to call this M2.0 until he burns the boats.
Now, I definitely think he is in a much, much different place than he was then-- even now, thinking about sitting there in the MC's office and having that conversation, I know things have changed a lot. And from his behaviors and responses to me when stuff does come up, I think he's a lot closer to burning the boats than he was. He might even be ready. But I can't say we are in M2.0 until he can look me in the eyes and tell me he loves me, he wants to be with me-- not me the mom of his kids or me his best friend, but me as his wife and partner in life and all that entails. That he's willing to do whatever it takes and tell me whatever I need to know to move forward, and to face that part of himself that lied and cheated and was the exact kind of person he always despised. TBH, I think he's ready to put the AP in the past and focus on us. He's been doing that for awhile now. I just don't think he's ready to face himself.
Maybe this is our anniversary of M1.5. I still totally take both of your advice to heart and think you're right, I need to put all those feelings to the side and be present and have gratitude for what I do have, which is a lot.
I hope things went well yesterday. I hope the fancy beer was amazing and you guys had a lovely meal and some grown up time
You kinda had my wheels spinning for you yesterday, so I just want to poke the bear here for a second. And maybe it's something you can discuss further with IC. I in no way want you to sweep H's bs under the rug and just go on like nothing happened. That is super unhealthy, and so 1950s housewife. But as former WW and as a LBS now i just want to mention a couple things.
You know you will have to let this go someday if you want that MR 2.0. My bff tells me this every time I get caught up in my anger or fear. And I'm starting to make it a mantra on my road to forgiveness. There is going to come a point in the future where you have to deal with your pain, and fear all alone without involving H any more. He can't be beholden to your process over the A forever. And that's a sh!tty thing to say. Because let's be real he should be. But if you want to move past this and get to that MR 2.0 in full there really will come a time when you have to be alone with those feelings and process them and not drag him in to it, because your negative feelings about the A are going to go on far longer than his negative feelings about reinvesting in the MR. Yesterday I wasn't asking you to walk away from those feelings forever. Just shelf them for a day. Trying living your life like that for just one day. Partly to make it a nice day for you, but also so you can see that one foot in front of the other thing that I think we all miss sometimes.
As to your vision of MR 2.0. I love ya, but I'm going call you on expectations. MR 2.0 is already started in sorts. MR 1.0 died long before you even knew it was dead. I'll give you that this is MR 2.0 beta testing. LOL. Working through the bugs and glitches in programming. But a year ago he was a warm body in your house. Now, right now, he's there, he's trying, in his way, but he's trying. You look at where you were a year ago and 2 years ago and see all this loss and pain. When I read that I thought, my god, look how far he's come. What a d!ck he was...couldn't even pull it together for a day, and today he's trying so hard and my May can't get out of her head long enough to see how badly he wants her to enjoy the day. I just want to warn you, that he is never going to say he's sorry exactly the way you want him to. He's never going to say I love you exactly the way you want him to. He never going to face his bs on your timeline or process it in the way you'd really like him to. It's all going to be on his time table and in his way at first. It a long road before he'll be ready to show and do things the way you'd like them to be, and then again he may never. This is a meet people where there at thing. He owes you a lot of explaining, and reassurances, and apologies, but there's a good chance all of that is going to come in his way and not yours. Are you going to be able to accept that? And the bigger question I have for you is, are you going to be able to set your pain, fear, anger, frustration etc. over all he's put you though long enough to see when he's giving you those things on his terms?
Wayfarer, I totally heart you.
First-- I *was* able to let it go yesterday and relax and enjoy. Honestly, I feel like I needed to give myself permission in some weird way to put it on the shelf, and you and CW helped me to do that. I think this is an area I need to work on for myself a bit. I feel like it connects in a weird way to those feelings of guilt for not kicking my H out back in January. Like if I was a strong empowered woman I would have booted him to the curb and not considered taking him back till he was came crawling. And now I shouldn't let him get close unless/until he checks the boxes that I want him to check in the order I want him to check it. (Control, there we go again!)
Thinking on your post... I shouldn't be scared that we are going to sweep this under the rug. That simply won't happen. I refuse. That is a boundary for me. But. At the same time, it doesn't need to happen today. It will happen when the time is right. I am not going to let go of my need to get those open questions answered-- this is core to who I am, I always want the information so I can deal with it, whether it is good or bad or ugly. I do feel like I'm in some kind of stasis right now and would SOOOOO much rather have everything 100 percent out in the open, excise the pus from the wound, and start the healing process with that out of the way. I'm generally not someone who spends a lot of time worrying about the past. I think that is one of the reasons why this is so uncomfortable for me and I'm pushing so hard on wanting to dig in so we can move past. Yet another lesson for me to learn. That path isn't possible right now for me, because it depends on H. But there are other paths to healing for both me individually and us as a couple that we are pursuing, and I think I need to be open to those paths as well and recognize that they can have benefit too.
Yail, you said something about not writing my future before I get there and that meeting my H halfway in this is giving him the time to work through things at his own pace. This has stuck with me as well. I realized last night that even though this has been painful and uncomfortable for me, the time and space has been really helpful for him and for us as a couple. A little humbling to recognize the benefit to his approach on this, and the build up of all the positive interactions and connections we've been having through this whole quarantine situation without the drama and stress of talking about the A is helping us in a lot of ways.
But if you want to move past this and get to that MR 2.0 in full there really will come a time when you have to be alone with those feelings and process them and not drag him in to it, because your negative feelings about the A are going to go on far longer than his negative feelings about reinvesting in the MR.
That part at the end.... yes. wow. I totally get you and agree with you on all of this. I just can't quite do that in a way that is authentic to me without more info. That just isn't who I am and through all of this I want to be true to myself.
As to your vision of MR 2.0. I love ya, but I'm going call you on expectations. MR 2.0 is already started in sorts. MR 1.0 died long before you even knew it was dead. I'll give you that this is MR 2.0 beta testing. LOL. Working through the bugs and glitches in programming. But a year ago he was a warm body in your house. Now, right now, he's there, he's trying, in his way, but he's trying. You look at where you were a year ago and 2 years ago and see all this loss and pain. When I read that I thought, my god, look how far he's come. What a d!ck he was...couldn't even pull it together for a day, and today he's trying so hard and my May can't get out of her head long enough to see how badly he wants her to enjoy the day.
LOL. I was thinking about that, that M1.0 died before our 11th anniversary. And, you are right. I gotta get out of my own head on this and stop focusing on where we aren't and focus more on where we are and how far we've come.
I just want to warn you, that he is never going to say he's sorry exactly the way you want him to. He's never going to say I love you exactly the way you want him to. He never going to face his bs on your timeline or process it in the way you'd really like him to. It's all going to be on his time table and in his way at first. It a long road before he'll be ready to show and do things the way you'd like them to be, and then again he may never. This is a meet people where there at thing. He owes you a lot of explaining, and reassurances, and apologies, but there's a good chance all of that is going to come in his way and not yours. Are you going to be able to accept that? And the bigger question I have for you is, are you going to be able to set your pain, fear, anger, frustration etc. over all he's put you though long enough to see when he's giving you those things on his terms?
I think this is part of my H's aggravation around my approach (and TBH? If I'd been less like "well I read every book there is on the subject and am now a full-fledged expert, and in order for us to move forward these 3 things need to happen in this specific order so... you ready to step to it and get with the program??" we might actually be doing more of what I wanted). LOL. I mean, a relationship is made up of two people and part of what attracted us to each other in the first place is that we push/challenge each other and neither of us ever gets our own way. So I definitely get intellectually that M2.0 needs to be forged together, his way as much as mine. It is just easier said than done (right, sister?)
One thing that has been helping recently is to refocus on my original reasons for standing-- the kids-- and remind myself that I've been through a lot and would go through far worse for them. I just need to put on my big-girl pants, cultivate my patience and gratitude and let things happen at their own pace rather than forcing it along. Having all this extra time with them during this quarantine has been amazing. (And sometimes I think how much worse it could have been, if we had gone in a different direction back in January and separated.)
Anyway... the night ended up being really good. We had cocktails outside and I put on our playlist. He suggested a song for this year which was the perfect song. I (still a little in my head at this point) noted that we didn't have one from last year and guessed he wasn't really into picking one out at that time... he looked sad but didn't get defensive or anything, just looked at me. I cried when it got to the song we played at our wedding and he came over to hold me through the whole song. We cooked a great meal together, the kids made puppets and put on a puppet show as a surprise for us, we had a decadent dessert and then drank our beers out back after the kids went down. Had a nice and deep conversation about lots of things, not about our R but about us individually and friends and family the direction of the world and our community.
The spotify playlist (the one full of breakup/love songs that he'd shared with AP) came up (my bad) and he looked a little sheepish said you know, we've talked about this a couple of times, I want to delete it because I know it will help you but then to be honest? I truly haven't thought about it at all. So that is kind of good, isn't it? I said no worries, I'll delete it myself and he said no, let me, I think it means more that way. So we'll see if it actually gets deleted but again, comparing this exchange to the time we talked about it with the MC when he was basically like I can delete the playlist but that doesn't delete my FEELINGS all up-in-arms about it... we have come a long way. And when we went to bed he initiated and for the first time it felt like ML instead of just sex. And I don't think it was just me. He told me he loved me. It did feel a little bit like the start of M2.0.
Yail-- somehow I missed your post yesterday. i love all your ideas. And am a little sorry we ended up just going with the traditional (but for the puppet show!).
I think we did do a good job of turning towards each other. And re-reading what i just posted, I also didn't meet my own goal of putting everything to the side since I apparently had to make a couple of comments here and there-- but that was OK, and he was OK with me saying them.
But I think the idea of taking the pressure off more generally and having fun is important. Just connecting and being OK with that. Laughing. Being a team. We'll get to the hard stuff when we get there and we don't have to do it today. (I keep needing to remind myself of this part).
OK and I have a huge thing of heavy cream from Costco that needs to be used up within the next few days. Any suggestions??
May you got a girl crying in the club over the end of your post. I heart you!!! And I’m so glad you let go enough to enjoy your day.
May, happy to hear you hade a nice anniversary.
May I’m just catching up on your sitch as I not read much on here the last couple of weeks. It sounds like you guys are in a pretty good place right now, you’ve certainly come a long way in so many aspects. It’s a little difficult to read on a phone screen but one of your last paragraphs makes so much sense:
But I think the idea of taking the pressure off more generally and having fun is important. Just connecting and being OK with that. Laughing. Being a team. We'll get to the hard stuff when we get there and we don't have to do it today. (I keep needing to remind myself of this part).
I’m totally with you on this. M2.0 needs to be exactly what you described ...having fun, connecting, making good memories, looking forwards....new features. Like you say there are still some important fixes required from the M1.0 legacy, but as you continue to connect and move forwards with improved teamwork then those will hopefully get fixed as part of the continued development of M2.0. I feel there is an element of trust required on both sides to deal with those issues and right now the trust is probably still a little fragile. But everything I read in your posts...that trust and bond is growing .
I’m so pleased that you are where you are. I need to read through your posts on a bigger screen because I know there is so much I can take away from your sitch and how you have handled yourself throughout, that I can apply to my own. Right now I feel like H and I are rabbits in the headlights - we want to move forward together but a bit startled about what/how!! Sending much love and a virtual G&T !
Pommy, CW, WF-- thanks
Things continue to go well. I feel like we had a mini positive breakthrough on our anniversary in that we feel closer and the romantic side of things is starting to peek its head back in again. We ML again a couple of nights ago, him initiating by hugging me and saying "I love you, May." It was nice. And we continue to be really strong friends and partners in all of this, backing up each other in parenting decisions, and dealing with this crazy coronavirus situation in the best way we can. I feel like this past week has gotten a little tougher on everyone being at home, and we've both separately and interpersonally dealt with potentially difficult situations way better than we would have before.
He did delete the Spotify playlist he'd shared with AP (though I haven't actually acknowledged that yet...) On Saturday I was in Spotify turning on music, noticed that the playlist was still there, got a little down, he noticed and asked why. I said that GD playlist is still in there. He asked why I checked. I said because it matters to me, and it bothers me that you don't seem to really get why or care that it does. I know I was being a little over-dramatic but he didn't get defensive or anything, just said to me I understand, and I dropped it. I saw him noodling around on his phone later and I looked and it was gone. I haven't said anything because... I'm not sure. There are also other things we haven't even talked about recently that I don't know if he's done or not (blocked her numbers, etc), and I'm not sure that he's quite ready for that conversation. We had said we would leave it until quarantine was over and we could start MC again.
All that being said... his reasoning in the beginning for not deleting it when I brought it up was that he didn't want to do anything that didn't feel authentic to him, he wanted to get to a point where he never thought about it and didn't care, and wouldn't I rather him delete it for those reasons than just because I told him to? At the time I was like no, I want you to delete it because you know it will make me feel better, and it bothered me that that reason wasn't enough. Now, I look back and I definitely do feel like it means more that he's deleted it now than if he deleted it then. I hate to admit it, but maybe there is something to doing things on his time frame and me being able to trust it more than if he only did what I asked because I asked it of him.
Anyway. Trying to continue to relax and connect, be grateful and in the moment.
may, I felt a weight lift from me reading that last update, knowing he deleted the GD playlist, so I can only imagine how you must feel. A small step. A significant step. It’s satisfying, too, that you can now look back and see that it does mean more now. Can I ever hope my H will be a normal human being again with any kind of empathy toward me? It’s like this big divide has opened up, and I see how far removed he is from... treating me like a human worthy of respect. Which also makes me so happy to see you getting love from your H. Happy Anniversary, dear may!
May! I just caught up on your sitch and I see what you mean about your H having a lot of similarities. I'm so glad things are going well for you guys (and I second Cardinal's thoughts about the playlist)! It was helpful to read about the WS deleting things from the AP in their own time and how it would be more meaningful for them to do that of their own accord instead of as a requirement or obligation. Framing it that way takes the sting out of some of it.
I can't imagine how hard it must be to not be able to talk about it with H. I mean, it's not like we talk about it everyday, but once a week or so we have a convo about how we each are feeling and or dealing with all the baggage surrounding. Sometimes I think that it would be easier not to hear about WS heartache, but I think if we can stay calm and validate their feelings it could bring some comfort.
I bet you are SOOO ready for this pandemic to end. Being stuck in the house with a WFH situation and all the kids would drive me insane! Hopefully soon.
((May))
KG
Cardinal, KG, thank you... it did feel good to find that stupid playlist deleted. Maybe a teeny bit discomfiting, because I had that as something to point to as "he isn't ready to talk about the A" and also I kind of fed a bit of my obsessiveness by checking to see if certain songs were on there. Now I can't do that anymore.
We were in the car together last weekend and playing music, I was going through the playlists and found one full of like exercise/dance music that was shared with one follower. (I think this is the other one I had originally seen but doesn't have any love songs on it so wasn't that worried about it.) I said hey, you have another playlist on here with a follower, he looked at it and said sorry, go ahead and delete it. So I did. No drama.
I can't imagine how hard it must be to not be able to talk about it with H. I mean, it's not like we talk about it everyday, but once a week or so we have a convo about how we each are feeling and or dealing with all the baggage surrounding. Sometimes I think that it would be easier not to hear about WS heartache, but I think if we can stay calm and validate their feelings it could bring some comfort.
It was really hard at first. The last few weeks, not so much. I find myself thinking about the A less and less. When I do, there isn't the same level of pain attached to it. There are these scenes I have in my head of the two of them together and even when I kind of purposefully linger on thinking about it/her it just doesn't have the same sting. Like, what's past is past, can't do anything about it now, what matters is what is happening now and in the future.
Another big part of wanting to talk was that I was also very anxious to feel all the feels and know all I needed to know NOW rather than wait. I was worried that dragging it all out would be damaging to me, that I'd sink right back to feeling how I felt in the lowest points once I finally find out all the answers to my questions (which really aren't all that big of a deal: how did you communicate, did you see her anywhere/anytime besides the times I know about, did he buy her any gifts, does he have any mementos, photos, emails, letters, whatever of her remaining). Plus I still want him to delete her from Instagram and block/delete her phone number and email address, and of course burn any $hit he might have from her that I don't know about (right, KG?? You know you want to too!!).
But I know it isn't all that big of a deal, really. He is barely on social media and when I had snooped on her IG from his phone way back when, she barely ever posted anyway. And at some point I do want to know the full story of what happened when he ended it with her beyond what he's already shared. (He has told me what they talked about, what he said and what she said, but I still want to know the details around it, like where did they meet, how long did they talk, was there any physical contact, etc. Just the facts, ma'am!)
But now, I actually do think that while it is still likely to dredge up a lot of bad feelings for me when we get there, and if it were 100% up to me I would have preferred to have pulled off the bandaid all at once, there is value to have built up all these good feelings and connections between us over the last three months. Maybe I am in a better and stronger place to hear about these things than I was back in January or February. And I feel that he is also in a better place. The rawness and intensity of his feelings about breaking off the AP are if not gone, severely reduced. The defensiveness and quick anger if it comes up is gone. Even just looking at the emotions around the Spotify playlist, it went from him feeling defensive and a weird need to elaborate on how strong his feelings were for the AP when it came up to now the only emotion I really detect is more like embarrassment.
All in all, we are doing really well. The romance part is still baby steps/slow but I've lost some of my fear that it will never come back. I feel it is more dormant than dead, tiny leaves starting to emerge. And we are closer, I feel, than we've probably ever been, excepting maybe when we were first married/before kids. He's really been amazing during this whole quarantine. He's pulling more than his own weight around the house, making me lunch and bringing it to me when I'm on a call; he probably does 75% of the distance learning duty; he makes dinner more than half the time, does the grocery shopping, and is just NICE. Things that he used to get annoyed at me for he now can just say hey babe can you do (whatever) and I can say oh sure sorry and that is it. He planned and facilitated a wonderful Mother's Day weekend last weekend, with beach walks with the girls and an at-home spa day, breakfast in bed, all the cooking and cleanup all weekend, special cocktails, backrubs.
Of course now I'm wondering if I should start pushing talking about the A again... but I went back through my journal and here and I'd committed to waiting out the quarantine as I'd agreed. So I think I'll just be grateful for what I have right now, focus on being in the moment, and continue to give him time on this one.
I bet you are SOOO ready for this pandemic to end. Being stuck in the house with a WFH situation and all the kids would drive me insane! Hopefully soon.
I feel guilty about this but actually... this has been such an incredible time. Like amazing. So much fun with the kids, no running around to soccer and swimming and work, taking turns cooking new and sometimes complicated dishes, lots of fun new cocktails, connecting on zoom with friends and family from around the country, taking advantage of the zero tourists where we live to go hiking and swimming (properly socially distanced of course)... my younger daughter calls the space on my lap when I'm at the computer the "cuddle zone" and pops in when I'm working all the time. I love it. I want to work from home forever. And I'm lucky in that our community has taken this very seriously and kept the numbers very, very low, so most of the local anxiety is around the economic downturn and how to keep the numbers down rather than the fear some of my friends have who live in places more severely impacted.
I mean, don't get me wrong. I do miss seeing friends and going to the beach and pool and restaurants and all the rest. But since we can't do that right now, I'm just loving what we do get in its place. I do have an undercurrent of guilt since we are so lucky to have a situation like this and so many other people are facing such anxious and tragic circumstances.
Virtual hugs to all my board peeps. Hang in there. Let's all have G&Ts tonight in honor of each other, shall we??
Vodka and limoncello seltzer, but I got you
I'm so happy to hear how things are going, May. And I don't feel guilty at all about being happy about this time. I needed to slow down. We needed to slow down. So many hugs. xoxo
may, I'm so happy for you that things are going well. In retrospect you realized your patience was worth it, so maybe it does not hurt to wait it out just a little bit more for the A talk. I think wounds do heal with time, maybe not completely, but it does make it easier to go back and examine the scars....as long as you are not sweeping things under the rug and continue being self-aware of your feelings about A, I think you are right that both of you will be in a stronger place to discuss about it in the future.
Enjoy the remaining quarantine time with your family, it sounds like you guys are having a wonderful time!! we can all use some happy stories these days.
I’m so glad everything seems to be ticking over nicely, May. You sound stronger with every post, and there seem to be lots of really positive changes. It’s really encouraging to hear that you feel closer than you have for a long time. That’s a really solid foundation to have and all your emotional and physical connections should flourish from that. Enjoy all the time together!! Like you, I’m kind of enjoying lockdown (not so much the separation part), but the less frenetic lifestyle, and more time with the children. I don’t think mine will be going back to school until September. What about yours?
Thanks, WF, Pommy, Wooba... you guys are the best.
So, of course, I couldn't help myself and poked the bear. Actually after I wrote this last post about not needing to think or talk about the A, I basically couldn't stop thinking about it and why we weren't talking about it. It still doesn't feel as painful to think about-- every once in awhile I get that stomach-turning feeling and then back off, but it is like a small fraction of the times it comes up for me-- but it is like picking at a scab and I just can't help it. What is wrong with me?
I asked him one night if he thought we'd just never talk about it since we are unlikely to be able to see our MC together alone for the entire summer at this point, since our school is doing virtual summer camp. He said he had been thinking about it too and didn't know the answer, but repeated that he doesn't think it is a good idea for us to have these painful conversations when we're stuck on lockdown.
I let it go but then ruminated on that for a few days, picked a couple of fights, told him I felt like he wanted to sweep everything under the rug and wasn't taking any responsibility for his cheating and lying. I finally riled him up yesterday morning to the point where he brought up the SSM again (I had emotionally starved him for years) and while what he did was worse than what I did, at least he had a reason (the SSM) whereas I was flailing around looking for excuses for my behavior.
I'm at such a crossroads on this particular point. I feel like I've taken responsibility for my part of the SSM and spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out why I did it so that it won't happen again. I've committed for MYSELF that it won't happen again, and FWIW it has been more than a year since I have been actively committed to exploring this. I don't understand how in his head the factors that led to a SSM for me (motherhood, etc) are "excuses" and evidence of me avoiding responsibility, while for him the SSM is a "reason" he did what he did. He very clearly can't see the parallels. And while he's still stuck in this place, does talking even help, at least on our own without an MC?
The other thing he said in the fight was that he was so confused about why I was still so angry, I "got what I wanted." I blew up and said if he thought I wanted this sad sack who won't take responsibility for anything, he was wrong. Then I stormed out.
I spent most of the day quiet and working in the basement. To give him credit, he did a number of things to try to repair all day long that i basically rebuffed until the very last one-- he came to give me a hug, he said he was sorry, he made me lunch, he wrote me a note, he took care of the kids and cleaned up the whole kitchen, he helped me work on a financial/business plan (which is when I finally relented, as even though I was being a total b**ch about it he kept being calm and nice and supportive).
Also, I totally know I was in the wrong in picking this fight with him. I don't know why I couldn't control myself and get back to that zen "it will happen when it happens" place.
He also spoke to his IC in the middle of the day yesterday, and after the kids went to bed he told me we can talk about the A. That he had been thinking about it and talked to his IC about it, and while he was worried that I'd get into a really bad place if we had these difficult conversations, we can't put them off forever, the quarantine wasn't going anywhere, and I was pretty upset anyway so it wasn't like avoiding it was helping. He wasn't sure why now I was suddenly upset again (I said it had been brewing in me this whole time and I was just letting him see it).
I asked him about the "you got what you want" comment and said it really bothered me, that it implied he didn't get what he wanted. He said he didn't mean to imply that, it was complicated for him, but his main feeling was that words are words and actions should mean more and he felt that I wasn't appreciating his actions, he's here, trying to be the best dad and husband he can be. (He also said he was trying to explain how I felt to his IC, who was like, "I don't understand... you're THERE." I swear, sometimes I really question his IC.)
I said I felt like words were important too, understanding intentionality, what we're working on or building towards. And that the infection from the A and the disgust I feel about the AP and that she's slimed everything she touched is still there, and needs to be cleaned out. (Another change-- when I had previously spoken in a way that was denigrating towards AP, back around when he ended the A and a little after, he would get upset with me, like don't do that. He didn't say anything, just let me say what I said.)
UGH, I know none of this is DBing. (And as I type this out, a lot of my past DB failings are becoming clear too. If he only knew how much I held in!) I don't really know what I should be doing at this point. I spent the day deciding I needed to re-detach, focus on me, etc. etc. Now that he's opened the door to talking about the A-- which is what I wanted-- I'm kind of dreading it. Does anyone have any advice for me?
I told him last night there are some things that I simply never want to hear about again, ever, like how he felt or feels about her. That is damaging to me and I don't want to hear it. He nodded (again a change, since before he absolutely refused to talk about the A without emphasizing how he felt about her, I think because he had some thing in his head about it wasn't so bad because it was love-- in fact he said to me at one point wasn't it better that he only cheated because he was so emotionally attached rather than just for the sake of it?)
I said there were things I wanted to talk about and thing he probably wanted to talk about, and also things maybe neither of us were ready to talk about, and that was OK. We don't even necessarily have to talk about the A, we can talk about other things that could help us build our R up now. He said OK, he liked that. I also said there were things that we would need to talk about that probably would be really difficult and hard to hear, like I still have never heard exactly what happened when he went to her city to break up with her. I said it would probably dredge up a lot of stuff for me, and only he knows how bad it is going to be since I don't know. But I need to know those things before I can start to heal and move on. He nodded.
In my head (and in all the books) you don't really start piecing until the WS is totally transparent, remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes to help the LBS heal. In my case, I just can't say that he is there, because we haven't been talking about it at all. I do see his actions being consistent with being there for me, being a good H and dad, trying to make me feel better through acts of service (my primary LL). I do believe him that he's committed to the M, given the things he's said to me and his actions have been totally consistent with that for the last 3 plus months since he broke it off. And it is true, as I said earlier, that things are way better between us and we are probably closer than we've ever been... except for dealing with the A, which is of course a giant, giant trust gap that maybe isn't fixable.
All along I knew it would take time for him to let her go in his head, grieve the end of the A, and be ready to both deal with the aftermath and work on M2.0 with me. I just don't know where his head is right now and I'm a little scared to open up that door in case he isn't as far along the path as I'd like him to be. (As I type that I get it that I have expectations that I need to let go of as we move into this process.)
Sorry for the long post. Would love any advice anyone has for me.
So, of course, I couldn't help myself and poked the bear. Actually after I wrote this last post about not needing to think or talk about the A, I basically couldn't stop thinking about it and why we weren't talking about it. It still doesn't feel as painful to think about-- every once in awhile I get that stomach-turning feeling and then back off, but it is like a small fraction of the times it comes up for me-- but it is like picking at a scab and I just can't help it. What is wrong with me?
Nothing is wrong with you! I think it's human nature to analyze and you are probably tired of mentally filling in the blanks or having a ton of questions and can't move on until those puzzle pieces are in place.
I asked him one night if he thought we'd just never talk about it since we are unlikely to be able to see our MC together alone for the entire summer at this point, since our school is doing virtual summer camp. He said he had been thinking about it too and didn't know the answer, but repeated that he doesn't think it is a good idea for us to have these painful conversations when we're stuck on lockdown.
I let it go but then ruminated on that for a few days, picked a couple of fights, told him I felt like he wanted to sweep everything under the rug and wasn't taking any responsibility for his cheating and lying. I finally riled him up yesterday morning to the point where he brought up the SSM again (I had emotionally starved him for years) and while what he did was worse than what I did, at least he had a reason (the SSM) whereas I was flailing around looking for excuses for my behavior.
I'm at such a crossroads on this particular point. I feel like I've taken responsibility for my part of the SSM and spent a lot of time and energy trying to figure out why I did it so that it won't happen again. I've committed for MYSELF that it won't happen again, and FWIW it has been more than a year since I have been actively committed to exploring this. I don't understand how in his head the factors that led to a SSM for me (motherhood, etc) are "excuses" and evidence of me avoiding responsibility, while for him the SSM is a "reason" he did what he did. He very clearly can't see the parallels. And while he's still stuck in this place, does talking even help, at least on our own without an MC?
Did he say what specifically he had been thinking about other than that it isn't good to talk about in lockdown? Did he say why not talking about it in lockdown was not good? Maybe if you offer to schedule a time for it so it has a concrete beginning and end, or have a list of questions and ask him to answer them when he feels like it, one at a time?
The other thing he said in the fight was that he was so confused about why I was still so angry, I "got what I wanted." I blew up and said if he thought I wanted this sad sack who won't take responsibility for anything, he was wrong. Then I stormed out.
I spent most of the day quiet and working in the basement. To give him credit, he did a number of things to try to repair all day long that i basically rebuffed until the very last one-- he came to give me a hug, he said he was sorry, he made me lunch, he wrote me a note, he took care of the kids and cleaned up the whole kitchen, he helped me work on a financial/business plan (which is when I finally relented, as even though I was being a total b**ch about it he kept being calm and nice and supportive).
Also, I totally know I was in the wrong in picking this fight with him. I don't know why I couldn't control myself and get back to that zen "it will happen when it happens" place.
It is strange that he has this blind spot about how you got 'what you wanted' but isn't seeing that you received a puzzle that has missing pieces, and how technically yeah you wanted the puzzle, but can't solve without the missing parts.
He also spoke to his IC in the middle of the day yesterday, and after the kids went to bed he told me we can talk about the A. That he had been thinking about it and talked to his IC about it, and while he was worried that I'd get into a really bad place if we had these difficult conversations, we can't put them off forever, the quarantine wasn't going anywhere, and I was pretty upset anyway so it wasn't like avoiding it was helping. He wasn't sure why now I was suddenly upset again (I said it had been brewing in me this whole time and I was just letting him see it).
I asked him about the "you got what you want" comment and said it really bothered me, that it implied he didn't get what he wanted. He said he didn't mean to imply that, it was complicated for him, but his main feeling was that words are words and actions should mean more and he felt that I wasn't appreciating his actions, he's here, trying to be the best dad and husband he can be. (He also said he was trying to explain how I felt to his IC, who was like, "I don't understand... you're THERE." I swear, sometimes I really question his IC.)
I said I felt like words were important too, understanding intentionality, what we're working on or building towards. And that the infection from the A and the disgust I feel about the AP and that she's slimed everything she touched is still there, and needs to be cleaned out. (Another change-- when I had previously spoken in a way that was denigrating towards AP, back around when he ended the A and a little after, he would get upset with me, like don't do that. He didn't say anything, just let me say what I said.)
I think it helps support his actions if he is saying them out loud to you. Do you think this is a love languages difference, or that he is actively avoiding talking about it for a variety of reasons? (guilt, shame, etc)
UGH, I know none of this is DBing. (And as I type this out, a lot of my past DB failings are becoming clear too. If he only knew how much I held in!) I don't really know what I should be doing at this point. I spent the day deciding I needed to re-detach, focus on me, etc. etc. Now that he's opened the door to talking about the A-- which is what I wanted-- I'm kind of dreading it. Does anyone have any advice for me?
I told him last night there are some things that I simply never want to hear about again, ever, like how he felt or feels about her. That is damaging to me and I don't want to hear it. He nodded (again a change, since before he absolutely refused to talk about the A without emphasizing how he felt about her, I think because he had some thing in his head about it wasn't so bad because it was love-- in fact he said to me at one point wasn't it better that he only cheated because he was so emotionally attached rather than just for the sake of it?)
I said there were things I wanted to talk about and thing he probably wanted to talk about, and also things maybe neither of us were ready to talk about, and that was OK. We don't even necessarily have to talk about the A, we can talk about other things that could help us build our R up now. He said OK, he liked that. I also said there were things that we would need to talk about that probably would be really difficult and hard to hear, like I still have never heard exactly what happened when he went to her city to break up with her. I said it would probably dredge up a lot of stuff for me, and only he knows how bad it is going to be since I don't know. But I need to know those things before I can start to heal and move on. He nodded.
In my head (and in all the books) you don't really start piecing until the WS is totally transparent, remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes to help the LBS heal. In my case, I just can't say that he is there, because we haven't been talking about it at all. I do see his actions being consistent with being there for me, being a good H and dad, trying to make me feel better through acts of service (my primary LL). I do believe him that he's committed to the M, given the things he's said to me and his actions have been totally consistent with that for the last 3 plus months since he broke it off. And it is true, as I said earlier, that things are way better between us and we are probably closer than we've ever been... except for dealing with the A, which is of course a giant, giant trust gap that maybe isn't fixable.
All along I knew it would take time for him to let her go in his head, grieve the end of the A, and be ready to both deal with the aftermath and work on M2.0 with me. I just don't know where his head is right now and I'm a little scared to open up that door in case he isn't as far along the path as I'd like him to be. (As I type that I get it that I have expectations that I need to let go of as we move into this process.)
Sorry for the long post. Would love any advice anyone has for me.
I know you've spent a lot of time thinking about this, and now the opportunity is there, and it is daunting. I took time to really think about each question that I asked, and if it was helpful for me to know, and not just hurtful. I have asked questions for months, and some of them are totally random. Reading books together has helped. Maybe if you make a list? And be honest that you are scared. I think you are dead on re: don't have expectations, and who knows, maybe he will surprise you? Or you will have more direction once you know where he is at. I know I can be thrown off if my H is quiet or I think he is avoiding a topic, and fill in the blanks with all kinds of creative (and INACCURATE) things. And I guess, what good is knowing some of the things you want to ask? Or maybe explain why? H and I sometimes scheduled times to talk, or we would gchat during the day so we can both thoughtfully think out answers (and then I can refer to them later in text if I am forgetting details). I have more to say and will be back tomorrow.
I have a few things I'd like to say in regards to hashing this out sans MC. Just food for thought really. I think before you do a deep dive with H on the A and your feelings, and the things you "need" to know, you should probably hash out with your IC what it is that you really NEED to know vs think you want to know. This is coming from a place of being a WW once upon a time. Once you know things you can't unknow them. Once it's out there there is no going back. You really need to be sure you are getting exactly what you need, and that you are prepared to hear things you don't want to with zero buffer and zero mediation. Next I'd suggest carving out time to talk about the A and the MR and that's it. You get a 2 hour block on Wednesday night and you aren't talking about it again until next Wednesday. The one thing about working this stuff out though MC is that there is a designated time and place to feel like absolute crap. And then you leave the office. And maybe there's some carry over on the drive home, but then you're home with the kids and it's time to pretend everything is fine while you both process in your heads alone. You'll need to create that same dynamic or you two will be miserable. I'd also suggest maybe looking at Esther Perel's questions to ask after an affair. There's a list of like 100 questions. Most are for the LBS, but there are a chunk for the WS. It might be good for both of you to review those and see what it is that both of you NEED to know to move forward. I think the idea of sprinkling in way to repair and move forward in the MR excluding the A stuff is going to be a good balance to this.
Next on the 100% remorseful. You are a good person. My exH was human hot garbage. So I can't really compare my time as WW to this. However, now as an LBS I hope my H isn't 100% remorseful. He needed to know how things would work out of he took a chance on OW. He got his answer. Now there isn't any more linger questions on her. If he hadn't brought a train wreck into the middle of our lives I don't know how much longer I would've just kept chugging along on my slow train to recovery from my depression. Years? And then it would've been me destroying our MR and him and myself slowly. Regardless of how this turns out for us, and regardless of there being better ways to get us here, we learned things about our selves, and about each other through this. Honestly at one point I told him I was kinda of glad this happened. It forced me to reevaluate everything in my life. It forced me to find me again. There are lessons to be learned here. You can't be remorseful for learning something about yourself. Just make sure you keep you expectations to something reasonable here. He needs to be remorseful for putting you and the kids, and anyone in your periphery effected by his crappy choices. But he doesn't need to be remorseful that he did it in it's entirety. You can't control his take away from all this any more than he can control how you feel when he say's you got what you wanted.
I know you have a game plan. I'm sure one you've been thinking about for weeks. I just want you to remember that you aren't the only one healing, or hurting. H is a jerkface for what he did,...lol, but now it isn't you two against each other any more. It's you two against the problem, try to keep that in mind going forward.
Hi May,
My brain has very little capacity, so here's what I've got.
You have been at this for 3 months. Take a step back and remind yourself of that often.
I read a lot of threads on this forum in my early days, and the reconciled threads it took so much longer than this. I know you want to do active work. But maybe your H's work needs to be a little more silent right now. Remember, HE needs to do some work too, he can't just jump into working with you on this.
I'm not saying to let him off the hook, or ignore things. Just keep your perspective that 1) it has been 3 months. That's so incredibly short 2) Look at what he has done in 3 months to turn himself around and walk the walk. As an outsider, I am impressed 3) I think he is working on it. Trust him to work a little bit in his own way.
I know your SSM and his A are not equal and they are not the same thing. But, each of you had your own motivations that you were not conscious of. Both of you had some deep down stuff you likely didn't realize was happening. But the result was the same in that you both hurt each other. In his own way, I think your H is going to want an apology as well, along with talking about it a bit more.
I don't think now is the time for either. Little bits here and there on both sides seems to be a good route?
I'm wondering - if you were to think back to your early days with your H, how long until you fell in love with him? Like REALLY fell in love with him because you knew him inside-out and all his many gifts and flaws? I'm guessing it was longer than 3 months. So be okay with the timeline.
I'm sorry it's so hard.
SamCal, WF, Yail... thanks for checking in.
It's funny... I actually relaxed and feel way better about all of it, now that he's just told me he's open to talking about it. I don't actually feel the pressure to dive in the same way I did, just knowing that it is possible. It does feel like a major shift, somehow.
Did he say what specifically he had been thinking about other than that it isn't good to talk about in lockdown? Did he say why not talking about it in lockdown was not good?
He’s been saying he thinks it is too stressful for both of us. The conversations we had before we so difficult and I definitely spun out for a few days after the BDs, not sleeping, barely speaking to him, etc. (Also, I had a some pretty spectacular DB fails right in the middle of everything that I know he’s referring to as well.) I think we both think the lockdown has been going surprisingly well and he’s afraid to throw a wrench into it, because on the flip side it could be so, so bad if we were really upset with one another and stuck at home with the kids 24/7. We definitely know how to push each other’s buttons if we want.
I think it helps support his actions if he is saying them out loud to you. Do you think this is a love languages difference, or that he is actively avoiding talking about it for a variety of reasons? (guilt, shame, etc)
I think he hasn’t felt ready. He’s been pretty stuck in the why he did it (his pat story for himself of me not wanting to have sex with him => me not loving him => he was hurting/vulnerable => met someone who thought he was amazing=>whoops! found himself in an affair) and I still think not ready to face what he did. it is so out of alignment with how he pictures himself, which was a part of his stress and unhappiness through the whole A.
In the final limbo time when his parents visited right after BD#3, he told his mom what was going on, and she ended up telling him she was very ashamed of him. That really, really struck him hard. I was flabbergasted he was surprised she’d think that but I think it shows just how far along in the fantasy he was— he thought his mom would be disappointed but would understand. The fact that she was not happy for him was shocking to him. I think he’s still coming back from that deep, deep fantastical denial and hasn’t really confronted it. Or, if he has, I don’t know about it since we haven’t talked about it.
And I guess, what good is knowing some of the things you want to ask? Or maybe explain why?
I’ve been thinking I might write out a few things I want to say, like the questions I want to ask, the boundaries I have about what I do not want to hear, and sharing those with them written so he can think them over. I feel I’ve dialed it back to what i really need to know and no more. No feelings. Just some of the bare-bones facts so I can re-calibrate the last two years of my life.
I have a few things I'd like to say in regards to hashing this out sans MC. Just food for thought really. I think before you do a deep dive with H on the A and your feelings, and the things you "need" to know, you should probably hash out with your IC what it is that you really NEED to know vs think you want to know. This is coming from a place of being a WW once upon a time. Once you know things you can't unknow them. Once it's out there there is no going back. You really need to be sure you are getting exactly what you need, and that you are prepared to hear things you don't want to with zero buffer and zero mediation.
I did go over the questions I want to ask in a private session with the MC, and he generally seemed to think they were fine. The big thing he was advocating against was any sexual detail, which I’ve read as well. He agreed with me that I don’t need to hear any more about the “love” part. I’m actually not sure H can do this— we’ve talked about it before together and I talked about it with the MC, this weird need H has had to not share any factual details without really twisting the knife on the feelings. H said it was because the facts were only relevant because of the feelings. I was like OK, I get it, I never need to hear it again. But of course, it’s been a couple of months now since we’ve talked about any of this.
I do know that when I finally let him just blab it all out about how deeply he felt for AP, listened, stopped telling him it was a fantasy, that I believed him, but it still didn’t change my stance— I wouldn’t work on our R with a third party in the mix and I wouldn’t be friends with him if we split—that he finally started to turn the corner and made the decision to stay and break off the A. I don’t know how much my actually listening and believing/validating him on this had to do with his decision, but the timing was correlated.
Next I'd suggest carving out time to talk about the A and the MR and that's it. You get a 2 hour block on Wednesday night and you aren't talking about it again until next Wednesday. The one thing about working this stuff out though MC is that there is a designated time and place to feel like absolute crap. And then you leave the office. And maybe there's some carry over on the drive home, but then you're home with the kids and it's time to pretend everything is fine while you both process in your heads alone. You'll need to create that same dynamic or you two will be miserable. I'd also suggest maybe looking at Esther Perel's questions to ask after an affair. There's a list of like 100 questions. Most are for the LBS, but there are a chunk for the WS. It might be good for both of you to review those and see what it is that both of you NEED to know to move forward. I think the idea of sprinkling in way to repair and move forward in the MR excluding the A stuff is going to be a good balance to this.
All true, and good ideas. I need to dig back into my affair healing literature. I kind of left it all when we went into quarantine.
Next on the 100% remorseful. You are a good person. My exH was human hot garbage. So I can't really compare my time as WW to this. However, now as an LBS I hope my H isn't 100% remorseful….There are lessons to be learned here. You can't be remorseful for learning something about yourself. Just make sure you keep you expectations to something reasonable here. He needs to be remorseful for putting you and the kids, and anyone in your periphery effected by his crappy choices. But he doesn't need to be remorseful that he did it in it's entirety. You can't control his take away from all this any more than he can control how you feel when he say's you got what you wanted.
I know you’re right on this. And your H got a big fat X from his AP while mine might always wonder what might have been if he’d gone in that direction, but I know I can’t control that either. I definitely went into this whole thing with the Esther Perel attitude on M2.0, that even though this all $ucked thank god it happened because things are so much better on the other side. And deep down I do really believe that. I don’t know that I ever would have gotten the wake-up call about the SSM if I hadn’t gotten BD1, and I know definitively I am a more fulfilled person because I have left that asexual mom persona behind. I do more for myself now, I am happier and more fulfilled on my own. I lost the guilt I used to feel when I spent time or money just on me. Those have nothing to do with my H but are all major benefits of DBing and probably would not have happened without the A. And I see a lot of positivity in our R already that would probably not have happened without the giant shake-up of the A.
Maybe it is partially reading over and over here that your WS isn’t ready to piece until they’re totally transparent and remorseful. I see it again and again, and worry/wonder that my H is not fitting that mold. Three months ago when we talked about it last, H was still like I can’t be sorry for something that was life-giving for me. Intellectually, I get all that and feel it is something we can move past. Emotionally, there is a part of me that wants him begging for forgiveness and sobbing that he made the biggest mistake of his life, etc. I guess I just have to get beyond that. It is the same side of me that wants to call AP on the phone and tell her karma’s an f-ing b**ch and I hope ten years from now a 30 year old slut comes along and Fs her husband. But of course I won’t really do that, and I don’t really need my H to beg for forgiveness. (He won’t. That isn’t him.) But it is a nice fantasy.
I just want you to remember that you aren't the only one healing, or hurting. H is a jerkface for what he did,...lol, but now it isn't you two against each other any more. It's you two against the problem, try to keep that in mind going forward.
You’re right. I hope we can keep that feeling going when we have these conversations. It is actually the most important thing in all of this to me— to feel like we’re partners in this together even if we’re slogging through some pretty difficult garbage. That is my biggest fear with opening these conversations— that we’ll lose that feeling we’ve been cultivating of partnership and it will dissolve back into the anger/hurt of the aftermath of the A.
You have been at this for 3 months. Take a step back and remind yourself of that often.
I read a lot of threads on this forum in my early days, and the reconciled threads it took so much longer than this. I know you want to do active work. But maybe your H's work needs to be a little more silent right now. Remember, HE needs to do some work too, he can't just jump into working with you on this.
I know. Patience has never been my strong suit and then I’m in this situation that has required more patience than I ever thought was remotely possible for me. I guess I just would like to see him understanding that maybe my work needs to have some conversation, even if his doesn’t, and that he has some responsibility in helping me in my work rather than just me flexing around his needs. Which is part of the reason I think I feel better and haven’t initiated any conversations since he said we could… just knowing he is open to it, understanding it is something I need, even if it is difficult for him is helpful and maybe all I need right at this very moment.
I'm not saying to let him off the hook, or ignore things. Just keep your perspective that 1) it has been 3 months. That's so incredibly short 2) Look at what he has done in 3 months to turn himself around and walk the walk. As an outsider, I am impressed 3) I think he is working on it. Trust him to work a little bit in his own way.
LOL and here I am feeling like, three months! It’s been so long! (Then I look at a piecing thread and think this is something we’ll need to continue to work on for our whole lives. And get angry all over again that he did this.) It is weird to start to go through the year now remembering what was happening at this same time last year, or the year before. I agree he’s come a long way/ we have come a long way in the last three months. I just need to breathe, focus on what I can control, and be grateful for what has happened so far.
I know your SSM and his A are not equal and they are not the same thing. But, each of you had your own motivations that you were not conscious of. Both of you had some deep down stuff you likely didn't realize was happening. But the result was the same in that you both hurt each other. In his own way, I think your H is going to want an apology as well, along with talking about it a bit more.
Yes, he wants an apology. He has gotten one several times, but I don’t think he is ready to really hear it yet. I can’t tell if he is still really hurting over it or if he is clinging onto it as the excuse for his A. (I find it hard to believe it is still currently painful since we’ve been sleeping together fairly regularly now since January, and I have been explicit in my desire for him for 15 months.)
Here’s where I am on the SSM— I am truly sorry for how it hurt him. I have spent now 15 months digging into why and how and how to move past it in my own mind. I also truly forgave him for the resentments I’d been holding onto for years as my own excuses for the SSM— like truly let those feelings go, to the extent that I can’t even really explain how I felt back then very well. And I’m 100% committed for MYSELF to never be that person again, and doing everything I can to make sure it never happens again.
I’m willing to dig in and talk about it as long as he wants, any and all aspects— why I think it happened, how things are different now, how I feel, how he can help… whatever. I am sorry for the past but I can’t change it. But I will do whatever it takes to help him get over it and build M2.0 with sex as a healthy part of our R. However, at some point I do need him to understand it is OVER. it is in the past and he needs to let it go as the excuse for his A and start to talk about the A and what led to it without always being in the shadow of the SSM (which to date has not been possible). And what I’d like from him on the A is basically what I’m trying to give him on the SSM— why it happened, what is different now, how we will both work to make sure it never happens again.
In the past, pretty much every time we talked about the SSM he feels like the factors that led to it for me are “excuses” and it makes him angry. There is also some undercurrent of “oh now you want to have sex” and a frustration that if I had only understood some of that earlier, none of this would have happened. But that still is H not taking responsibility for his own actions, like it is some inevitable giant waterslide that goes from SSM to A, so sorry, not my fault.
I definitely get and see his actions in the day-to-day are everything I would want to see. He is committed. He is here. He is working at our R. He has made tons of small and big changes (I know I have too) and as a result we are getting along very well. If I didn’t know he had had an A, I would be so happy right now— he’s been the perfect H. maybe a part of me doesn’t want to get too comfortable here without doing SOME of the hard work… but Yail, you’re right, there is also work that doesn’t require talking, just requires time and healing and compassion for ourselves and each other, and I can’t discount the importance of that work as well.
Thanks guys. This was really helpful. xx
I think you've had some really great suggestions here, May.
I am not sure if you want to talk about the A because you are fearful there are more details you don't yet know about, and knowing those details, while painful, might take away that fear.
Or if it is because the details of the affair are less important than hearing your H tell you that he takes responsibility, that it was wrong, that he regrets it, feels remorse, and that your actions around the SSM are not an adequate excuse for it in his mind.
Is it both?
My H and I do not talk about his EA any more. It was a more minor matter than the behaviour of your H, so perhaps not directly comparable, but I did want all the details in one go, and he did answer my questions at the time. When more came out in the months afterwards, I felt very betrayed and it look me a long time to understand that actually, he hadn't told me this one or two particular details not to hide things from me, but because it was genuinely irrelevant to him. It wasn't irrelevant to me and he was able to validate that feeling. I have been able to accept that I will never KNOW every single little thing, and that the important thing is that it is not happening now, and he had been faithful to me since it ended. He is very transparent now.
I wish he could say 'that was totally wrong and I regret it, and you didn't deserve it no matter how our marriage was at the time.' He has said some version of that, but he will also talk about his own position - that he felt burdened and lonely and unappreciated and controlled. I have chosen to hear this as him wanting me to know where he was at the time - wanting me to understand his heart - rather than him wanting to make excuses or put some of the blame for his actions on me and my part in our struggling marriage. I have also told him I take full responsibility for my part in the marriage and for how awful it was for both of us, but I don't take any responsibility at all for his behaviour, his infidelity and verbal abuse, and that he is always responsible for his own actions. He still struggles with this and is apt, if he gets grumpy and rude, to say that he'd have been gentler or kinder if only x hadn't done y. I've told him I find that kind of talk immature and unattractive and whether he believes or accepts it or not, he is still responsible for himself. It's an aspect of his character I find difficult. But I leave it with him. I don't poke at it. I just put responsibility back on him when he tries to hand it to me.
It is not perfect and I suspect my H has been willing to be more transparent verbally and give a clearer account of himself verbally than yours has. I also think H's in this position will have to - over a number of very many years - take gradual responsibility for who they are. All you need to do is keep to your boundaries. They may not want to pick up their own mess, but it doesn't mean it falls on you.
I also have another question that just hit me.
I understand why you want to ask your H questions about his affair. I can also understand why he might not want to, or be fearful about it.
But putting that to one side for a second, for the survival of your marriage, it is probably more important that he starts to ask himself questions about why he had the affair. And given that he still blames you for it, it sounds like he really really doesn't want to do that.
I wonder if your H is using up his energy thinking about your questions, and delaying them, as a way of keeping the focus on you and what you want. Do you think this dynamic protects him from the more important and necessary work of looking hard at himself? He can have this silent dispute with you, and string it out as long as he wants, and that's where the focus is - May wants to know and I don't want to tell her or I want to be in control of when I tell her - rather than 'I wonder why I did this terrible thing to a woman I am now claiming to want to commit to again? What is it about me that made me choose to respond to the pain in our marriage in that way? How can I make sure I don't respond in that way again?'
I am just trying to imagine what is keeping him so motivated in refusing you something entirely normal.
You have such great comments here that are really useful to me as well.
I don't know if this helps, but something my coach said to me has come up in my thoughts a lot. She said our ego is like a thermostat. It is set at a certain "temperature." Think about your thermostat in your house: when it gets too cold, it warms up to bring it down. When it gets too warm, it kicks in to bring it up.
Likewise, we are used to being at a certain level. When we venture out of our comfort zone, our ego wigs out a bit and wants to bring us to normal, even if normal is not healthy or productive. As a personal example relating to your situation, as crazy as it sounds, when we would do better, my subconscious would actually begin to operate out of fear, even though doing better was supposed to be what I wanted! It was still out of my comfort zone. I was scared to to trust enough that things could be better because I was so afraid I would be hurt again if i allowed that. So i would pick a fight, or bring up the A. I had to work to be okay with being uncomfortable, and to create a new comfort zone. Sometimes I think this is why DBing can be so hard...it goes against our instincts and normal behavior we have a habit of doing.
What seems to help me the most, is that when I feel that discomfort, that panic, that trigger, I go off by myself, usually in the bathroom or my room, or for a drive alone if possible. If we are out, I excuse myself to the bathroom. I sit with the feeling for a bit. I ask myself what is going on? What is my need here? Do I really need something from him or am I just frightened? Can I soothe myself? With a lot of work, nine times out of ten I can soothe myself. I can remind myself of my goals and that I will be okay no matter what. Sometimes i call my sister and have her remind me I will be okay. I have noticed my comfort temperature zone has changed about two degrees. It's not where I want it yet, but it's moving.
When there is a huge fallout like what you experience, I am better at pinpointing what happened. The huge plus I see in your story is that your H is interested in repair. That is a really positive thing!
I often wish we were able to have a text group so when we get that 911 feeling we have someone who can talk us through it and help us learn to practice soothing ourselves. I realize now I have been so reliant on him and our progress to make me feel better. I've got to learn how to feel better on my own. I don't know if any of this made sense at all!
Alison, OG, thank you.
I am not sure if you want to talk about the A because you are fearful there are more details you don't yet know about, and knowing those details, while painful, might take away that fear.
Or if it is because the details of the affair are less important than hearing your H tell you that he takes responsibility, that it was wrong, that he regrets it, feels remorse, and that your actions around the SSM are not an adequate excuse for it in his mind.
Is it both?
Yes, it is both. On the first, I'm not sure I would label it fear as much as this burning desire to KNOW. I just want to know. I have always been this way. I do so much better when I have all the cards, even if the information is hurtful or difficult. I feel like the last two years of my life were all thrown in disarray with the knowledge of the A, and even though it really feels awful to rearrange things now knowing that he was having this A, I just want to put all the pieces together. I think my fear is more about letting it go on too long without that reset, and it will feel worse to get the hard information the longer it takes. Maybe that isn't true (the MC definitely challenged me on this) but that is my fear.
(In thinking about this more, I do have a fear that there are worse things that I don't know about, like if he slept with her on that last visit. Most of me feels like what he did was so bad, doesn't get much worse, it is all a matter of degree and there really isn't anything he could say that would make it appreciably worse, especially if I keep to my boundary of not hearing anything about feelings. But I've been surprised before.)
And yes, I very much want to hear him take responsibility for the A. He has said he knows what he did was wrong and way worse than what I did, but I'd really like to hear him take responsibility outside of any reference to the SSM. I think he knows this intellectually, that he made a series of choices that only he is responsible for making, but I think that puts him in a place where he is very, very uncomfortable and he (at least in the past) has immediately retreated to him "but I was so damaged" corner. I feel like hearing him take explicit responsibility for his behavior and feel like he embraces the full depth of how huge it was will help me to feel more secure that it won't happen again. So far I feel like he dips his toe into the water here and retreats because it is so terribly uncomfortable to sit with the enormity of what he did, and how to reconcile those actions with his view of himself as a person. I feel for us to truly move on, he has to do this work.
When more came out in the months afterwards, I felt very betrayed and it look me a long time to understand that actually, he hadn't told me this one or two particular details not to hide things from me, but because it was genuinely irrelevant to him. It wasn't irrelevant to me and he was able to validate that feeling.
This has come up with us. I don't feel that he has yet been able to validate my feelings, he's been more along the lines of "but it doesn't matter to me therefore it shouldn't to you." And of course, all these conversations took place more than two months ago, so I don't know what he'd say now. My guess is that he'd be more open to validating, given what happened with the Spotify playlists, so perhaps some movement there. But I just don't know because we haven't talked about it.
I have chosen to hear this as him wanting me to know where he was at the time - wanting me to understand his heart - rather than him wanting to make excuses or put some of the blame for his actions on me and my part in our struggling marriage.
I need to work on my own response here. I actually do believe there is a large part of my H that does just want me to fully understand and sit in how he felt, just like I want him to sit in how I feel. I don't think he thinks I get it. (And maybe I really don't. You posted something about being on the other side of the SSM, I think, that was really helpful for me. I should probably go back and re-read it.)
I have also told him I take full responsibility for my part in the marriage and for how awful it was for both of us, but I don't take any responsibility at all for his behaviour, his infidelity and verbal abuse, and that he is always responsible for his own actions. He still struggles with this and is apt, if he gets grumpy and rude, to say that he'd have been gentler or kinder if only x hadn't done y. I've told him I find that kind of talk immature and unattractive and whether he believes or accepts it or not, he is still responsible for himself. It's an aspect of his character I find difficult. But I leave it with him. I don't poke at it. I just put responsibility back on him when he tries to hand it to me.
I'm glad to see this is getting better for you and your H. My H has some of the same tendencies, something goes wrong and he finds the closest person to blame (usually me). This is one area, though, that he's really improving on. In fact, last night he was a jerk about something stupid. I told him it wasn't OK and kind of withdrew-- not rude, but just not really participating and having fun with him. He apologized right away and then the end of the night he apologized again. Then this morning he said he really doesn't want to ever do that again and he's going to make a commitment not to do it. He has come a very, very long way in this area-- the outburst wasn't even all that bad. I think I don't feed it any more by getting angry in return, but I'm glad to see he's taking responsibility for his own behavior and putting energy into change. Maybe these are his baby practice steps towards addressing the A.
I suspect my H has been willing to be more transparent verbally and give a clearer account of himself verbally than yours has. I also think H's in this position will have to - over a number of very many years - take gradual responsibility for who they are.
I've been thinking that part of my slightly odd situation in all of this is because my H didn't ever move out, didn't go through the more standard process (at least as I read it here) of seeing their fantasy fall apart and coming back totally remorseful and ready to start the R process. Mine made his decision when he was still very much in the throes of the A and I've had to (probably am still) living through his grieving process. I knew (or thought I knew) what I was getting myself into and purposefully made the choice that it might be harder on me this way, but it also would spare the children. Once he decided to come clean, I do believe he stopped lying, but he simply didn't want to say tell me exactly what transpired when he broke it off when he did it. There were other things that he said he didn't want to share. At the time I felt like it was better than lying about it, which I still believe. But I also think we need to get to a place where he'll talk about it. I honestly don't know if we are there yet.
I also agree that it will probably take years for him to really accept that he did this big thing. I still can barely believe it. I imagine if I had done something like this, so awful to the person I am supposed to love forever, potentially hurt the children, etc. that it would take me a long time to really accept it and be able to live with myself. I don't think he is very far along this particular path.
But putting that to one side for a second, for the survival of your marriage, it is probably more important that he starts to ask himself questions about why he had the affair. And given that he still blames you for it, it sounds like he really really doesn't want to do that.
Back in January, after he told me about the full extent of the A, we went to see his IC and then started the discernment counseling. In both sessions, he set forth as his primary goal trying to understand why he did it, totally on his own. With his IC, we didn't really end up getting into it, because it was all so fresh for me and when he dipped his toe into it he got stuck in the "I was in such a bad place" with a lot of anger/resentment that it was dropped. In discernment counseling, H brought it up a number of times, but the counselor said that wasn't really DC and should be tabled for now. He's said multiple times he wants to figure this out for himself, unprompted by me. It is just that to date, he gets stuck in the SSM and all the bad feelings that dredges up and we don't move past it. Maybe I get defensive there too and contribute to the stagnation. I don't know.
I wonder if your H is using up his energy thinking about your questions, and delaying them, as a way of keeping the focus on you and what you want. Do you think this dynamic protects him from the more important and necessary work of looking hard at himself? He can have this silent dispute with you, and string it out as long as he wants, and that's where the focus is - May wants to know and I don't want to tell her or I want to be in control of when I tell her - rather than 'I wonder why I did this terrible thing to a woman I am now claiming to want to commit to again? What is it about me that made me choose to respond to the pain in our marriage in that way? How can I make sure I don't respond in that way again?'
I am just trying to imagine what is keeping him so motivated in refusing you something entirely normal.
I don't think he's using up any energy thinking about my questions-- he still doesn't even know them! Where we left it with the MC was that I had questions, he wasn't ready to answer them, MC suggested I write them down and give them to H, H felt that was too formal. He knows I want to know about what happened when he ended it and specifically didn't want to tell me about it because it felt too much like me trying to take control. He said he it was a big, positive thing for him when I said to go and do this your own way, and to return and feel like he had to give me a play-by-play felt like me reasserting control and him putting back on the collar and negated the freedom he felt to make his own choice about the situation. He knows one of my questions is how they communicated, but we never got beyond that. And the truth is until just this past week, we simply haven't discussed any of it, and then the last week was me saying I was really frustrated with not talking about anything, him saying he thought it was too stressful to do it during the pandemic, and now him saying we can.
I feel like there was a silent dispute about whether or not we could talk about it, not really about the content of what we'd discuss. Now that we can talk, I think all those other things are on the table to be addressed, or not, and see where we are and if there has been any movement. I don't feel like it is a control thing on his end. Truthfully, I don't think he'll be at a place of real introspection yet when we do talk.
I will also fully admit that there were times I did not respond well to learning truths about the A and how my H was feeling, especially earlier on in the process before I got more practiced at DB-ing. After BD#1 I completely shut down for probably a week. After BD#2 the same. There were multiple times over the course of the fall when I couldn't sleep and went to wake him up in the office to fight with him more. (Newbies, don't do this. NEVER productive.) There were times I cried so hard I threw up. So there is good reason for him to be scared of what might happen between us if he drops more bombs. I just don't know if there are bombs left to be dropped or more like minor bomblets, like he saw her in places I didn't know about, etc.
I think my main goal is to get all the facts about the A out on the table for myself, my questions asked and answered, and then see where we are with other things, whether we want to address the SSM, the A, other communication/connection issues or needs between us, etc. It will be a big difference if he's able to listen to my questions, understand/validate why I need them answered, and answer them while respecting my boundaries around not hearing about the feelings part. If he can do that, we will have come a long ways, and I'll be able to move forward on processing that information for myself. If he isn't ready to be transparent and answer my questions, well, then we'll know we aren't there yet.
As a personal example relating to your situation, as crazy as it sounds, when we would do better, my subconscious would actually begin to operate out of fear, even though doing better was supposed to be what I wanted! It was still out of my comfort zone. I was scared to to trust enough that things could be better because I was so afraid I would be hurt again if i allowed that. So i would pick a fight, or bring up the A. I had to work to be okay with being uncomfortable, and to create a new comfort zone.
This resonates with me. I feel like I definitely did this over the past week. But in the end I'm glad I did because we got over the hump of "we aren't going to talk about it till after the lockdown."
What seems to help me the most, is that when I feel that discomfort, that panic, that trigger, I go off by myself, usually in the bathroom or my room, or for a drive alone if possible. If we are out, I excuse myself to the bathroom. I sit with the feeling for a bit. I ask myself what is going on? What is my need here? Do I really need something from him or am I just frightened? Can I soothe myself? With a lot of work, nine times out of ten I can soothe myself. I can remind myself of my goals and that I will be okay no matter what.
This is awesome and something that I'm working on too, and worked on a TON during the worst part of the A. I feel like this ability to take a step back and not respond out of emotion is a huge benefit of DBing. I feel like I've gotten somewhat out of practice with some of the DBing principles and I need to keep those muscles working where it is healthy for me to do so, and this is one of them.
May, you are doing so well. I don't think you think you are, but I think you are.
Yes, I was the HD partner in a SSM and to be honest, that made the EA ten times worse for me. There was physical attraction there, expressed to each other, and it wasn't far off from becoming a PA. I was totally dumbfounded that this man who had said some version of 'if only I wasn't so tired, you know I'd want to, but it's just impossible right now and I'm as frustrated about it as you are,' for literally years had found the emotional interest and desire and time for someone else.
And you know, as the SS wife, when I found out about the EA and he became scared of our marriage ending, shocked at what he'd done, and eager to make it up to me, I used it as a lever to get him to be close to me. You'll remember we went to MC for six months after I found out (I forced him) and while he blamed me for it the entire time, he also took lots of care to flirt with me, woo me, cherish me, come to bed with me - all of that - for weeks and weeks. And I really jumped on the 'guilt card' and made sure whenever I felt like being comforted, he knew he owed me that. And it was I think really awful for him and part of the reason he left was because he couldn't stand the idea that my forgiveness rested on him never having his own space, never being able to say, 'right now you have to deal with your own feelings.'
Perhaps this is too far away from your own experience to be useful to you, or perhaps it sheds light on your changing dynamic.
Yes, it is both. On the first, I'm not sure I would label it fear as much as this burning desire to KNOW. I just want to know. I have always been this way. I do so much better when I have all the cards, even if the information is hurtful or difficult. I feel like the last two years of my life were all thrown in disarray with the knowledge of the A, and even though it really feels awful to rearrange things now knowing that he was having this A, I just want to put all the pieces together. I think my fear is more about letting it go on too long without that reset, and it will feel worse to get the hard information the longer it takes. Maybe that isn't true (the MC definitely challenged me on this) but that is my fear.
(In thinking about this more, I do have a fear that there are worse things that I don't know about, like if he slept with her on that last visit. Most of me feels like what he did was so bad, doesn't get much worse, it is all a matter of degree and there really isn't anything he could say that would make it appreciably worse, especially if I keep to my boundary of not hearing anything about feelings. But I've been surprised before.)
Oh man, I echo your feeling on the burning desire to know. I've had a lot of talks with H about lying being the worst thing someone can do to me, because it takes away my autonomy and ability to make informed decisions for myself. We had a long discussion about when lying is innocuous or to avoid hurting someone's feelings (not about As, though). And to logical people, when your H is acting like an insane person, it's infuriating and makes no sense! And it probably never will because it was from a bananas place! That has saved me some mental energy - likening it to other concepts I think are dumb/make no sense/unsound etc.
When more came out in the months afterwards, I felt very betrayed and it look me a long time to understand that actually, he hadn't told me this one or two particular details not to hide things from me, but because it was genuinely irrelevant to him. It wasn't irrelevant to me and he was able to validate that feeling.
This has come up with us. I don't feel that he has yet been able to validate my feelings, he's been more along the lines of "but it doesn't matter to me therefore it shouldn't to you." And of course, all these conversations took place more than two months ago, so I don't know what he'd say now. My guess is that he'd be more open to validating, given what happened with the Spotify playlists, so perhaps some movement there. But I just don't know because we haven't talked about it.
Something similiar happened with H and I - I was upset about him taking a girl to a new restaurant, and then taking me (before I know about this). And I was so hurt that he would take me somewhere he had taken her etc. etc. We discussed this in MC and I was crying, and the MC was helpful and did point to this as a gender difference (she is pretty progressive so was hesitant to even go there, but she did). H was like - I wanted to take you b/c they have the best (fave dish of ours) in the city! and that was all there was to it for him. It wasn't a particularly romantic place, and the MC did a good job of mitigating this difference and helping us understand and recognize each other's perspective. It can be hard to validate when you don't consider a perspective, and are out of practice with thinking about it/actively listening.
I think my main goal is to get all the facts about the A out on the table for myself, my questions asked and answered, and then see where we are with other things, whether we want to address the SSM, the A, other communication/connection issues or needs between us, etc. It will be a big difference if he's able to listen to my questions, understand/validate why I need them answered, and answer them while respecting my boundaries around not hearing about the feelings part. If he can do that, we will have come a long ways, and I'll be able to move forward on processing that information for myself. If he isn't ready to be transparent and answer my questions, well, then we'll know we aren't there yet.
Why do you need the facts about A to work through the other stuff. Do you think that he would be more willing to open up about A if you tackled this "out of order" so to speak? Maybe create some goodwill and security for him - perhaps he is scared of how you will react with A information, and that your willingness to work through the other things hinges on how the A talks go. It'd also give him the opportunity to practice validating in a situation where he feels less pressure ? I don't want to try to mindread here!
You're doing a great job - keep it up.
May, you are doing so well. I don't think you think you are, but I think you are.
Thanks... I needed that.
Yes, I was the HD partner in a SSM and to be honest, that made the EA ten times worse for me. There was physical attraction there, expressed to each other, and it wasn't far off from becoming a PA. I was totally dumbfounded that this man who had said some version of 'if only I wasn't so tired, you know I'd want to, but it's just impossible right now and I'm as frustrated about it as you are,' for literally years had found the emotional interest and desire and time for someone else.
Ugh, that "I'm just so tired" was me for so long. I didn't even really know why I felt that way. Then I started to feel that there was something wrong with me, that it was all my fault-- which in turn sparked a lot of anger and resentment and defensiveness that started to leak into other things.
Thanks for sharing your experience, both now and before... it is really helpful. Our sitch has some similar threads but b/c the roles are reversed in the HD/LD partners, it is hard to parse out. One thing that is probably good though a bit frustrating in the moment is that my H is completely dedicated to not doing or saying anything that doesn't feel authentic. Sometimes I do wish he'd say or do something just to make me feel better, but he isn't, and it does at least help me to sort out a bit better where he stands than if he was trying do things to comfort me but felt controlled or smothered inside. He's definitely not doing that right now
SamCal, I think I have gotten out of the practice of validating, as has he, since we stopped seeing the MC with the lockdown. We are good at it in easy conversations now but crappy at it in difficult ones. I also think that is a good suggestion to take things out of order. I need to keep reminding myself I'm in this for the long haul, I didn't sign up for this because it was easy. Marathon not a sprint and all the rest.
Last night we had a talk about the talk, so to speak. I shared with him the questions I want answered about the A and why, where I stand on the SSM and my willingness to dig into it, my need to eventually understand why he did what he did and how things will be different in the future, whether he's ready to "burn the boats" or not, and my boundary around not hearing any more about his feelings for AP.
It went relatively well. In the back of my mind, of course I had this small hope he'd be checking all those boxes the WS is supposed to check before R-- totally transparent, remorseful, etc. Of course that did not happen. But what did happen is that he said he would answer all my questions to the best of his ability. He doesn't think there is anything out there that will be too difficult/painful-- if the revelations in the past have been at the 7,8,9 level on a scale of 1-10, there are probably things more in the 3-5 range still to be disclosed... but he knows even those may be pretty $hitty to hear about.
He said he understood why I didn't want to hear anything about his feelings, but felt that it was like if the information was a piece of art, me saying I wanted to look but still half-covering my eyes. He feels like to really understand the full scope the feelings are a very relevant piece of the puzzle. I said I got it about the feelings, no need to have more information on that-- back to the art analogy, the feelings were like the basic outline and I get all of that, now I want some of the detail that I'm missing. He said OK.
We both agreed it is important to get all the lies out and off the table, even lies of omission (that distinction is still important to him). It also became clear to me in the conversation that he feels like the feelings he had for AP somehow partially justified his actions-- he said he has been working with his IC to determine if he's just a bad person (she says no) and I think he thinks it would be way worse if he did all those things for $hits and giggles. Somehow he feels like less of a bad person because of the emotions. OK.
He said he can't answer the question of why he did it. He wants to. He talked more about working with his IC on the question of whether or not he's just a jerk. I said I thought it was something we'd have to work through together.
On the burning the boats... turns out we had a different interpretation of this. He felt like I wanted to burn the boats like Alexander the Great invading Persia, to prevent the troops from deserting-- we either go home in Persian boats or not at all. So burning the boats was a control thing for him, me wanting to control his choices. I clarified that I didn't want to burn the boats-- I wanted him to be in a place where he burnt the boats himself. He said he wants to not really care or think about if the boats are there or not. He said he's getting there.
He did refer to the AP in the past tense, said he hoped she's "moved on too" and that he does have some guilt around her and it would help him to know if she was happy and over him. It does seem like he's not spending much time and energy thinking about her from what he said, and the heat/emotion was dialed far back from where it was when we talked about her before. That doesn't mean he feels back in love with me, I think-- I didn't go there and neither did he, but he did say some things around feeling like I want to just put this all behind us and have a picture-perfect marriage, and he isn't sure he can do that yet. A lot came up around control again, and his need to feel heard/felt and be a partner in designing what M2.0 is going to look like, not just default to what I want it to be. I'm fine with all this, but do think he's just jumping to conclusions about what he imagines I want since we haven't talked about it at all.
He's also still somewhat stuck on the SSM. He said something along the lines of me thinking that now that I want to have sex, that will make things all better. That it is like five years ago he was saying he was really thirsty, and now he's covered in third degree burns and I'm offering him water. It is what he needed five years ago but not necessarily today. Okay. I have some qualms around this, that maybe it is true he'll never be able to fully restart those feelings for me. But I am trying to tell myself (channeling Yail) that it hasn't been very long at all, that things are improving slowly, not to write my future before I get there. And that he has healing and processing to do too, both about the A and his behavior but about the SSM too.
Anyway... so we talked a little, didn't dig in too much. It wasn't fun or comfortable but I'm glad we did it. I'm not sure if we'll make it a regular thing until we can get back into MC, and/or when I'll raise the issue of actually answering the questions (last night we didn't want to stay up too late so had agreed to talk about broad strokes but not have "the talk"). I do have some unfounded disappointment that he isn't farther along, but... I only control me. Need to keep my focus there.
So, we had the big talk last night. It went relatively well. I got to ask all the questions I had been bottling up and he was open and transparent (with one exception), and he respected my desire to avoid any talking about the feelings, though I did mention it a bit. The upshot is:
-- I was right, they weren't just texting/calling-- they were primarily using WhatsApp. Ha! I knew it had to be something. I had snooped a bit through his texts and call logs and never found anything, never thought to look at WhatsApp. All threads are deleted, he showed me the app. He said that he went through phases when he was closer to me when if he had any communication he'd delete it immediately and times when things were more strained between us that he'd "clean up" after himself less... we didn't get into why.
-- He saw her once in another city I hadn't known about, early on.
-- He's deleted all her emails, photos, text threads, etc. He said anything that could remotely be considered a memento is gone.
--We talked about a couple of specific times that were painful to me and talking more about them was helpful-- turns out once I knew the full truth, it was far less worse than I had been imagining. Things that I had blown up in my mind to be bigger than they were.
-- On the what happened when he did the final break off-- this is the only thing he was reluctant to share about. He gave me the broad strokes. He brought up again how much he valued that I gave him the freedom to do this how he wanted and still felt like it was somehow taking that away by telling me a play-by-play. He also said where he is in his healing process that he didn't think it was a good idea to relive that conversation right now, but that he could assure me nothing happened I'd be upset about. I said, fine and that I wasn't going to ask him again about it.
-- When the feelings part did come up, he talked about it in the past tense again. He said he'd been thinking in recent weeks that maybe/probably it never would have worked out with her anyway.
-- He said he's been talking with his IC about the fact that when he was in the A, he felt like it made sense that he didn't feel the "in love" feelings with me because those feelings were elsewhere. Now that those feelings are not really there anymore for AP, he still isn't feeling them strongly for me and he doesn't know what to make of that. He said he still feels kind of ambivalent about sex, that we still don't have a "deep emotional connection." I asked him if he thought we used to and lost it or if we never had it, he said he thought we had it and lost it. Then he said maybe deep emotional connection is the wrong word, maybe "emotional intimacy." I feel like he's searching for that "in love" limerent feeling and he'll never get it again with me.
--He's been working with his IC on why he did this, he wants to work on it also when we can get back to see the MC. We talked a little about him not really fully grasping my pain and what I've been dealing with, and he said he has a really hard time with it because he knows he was the cause, and it puts him in this place that is really really hard for him. I said I get it, but at some point I think it is important for him to really go there and understand deeply what he did and how it impacted me. I said maybe that was part of the emotional blockage with me. He validated.
-- Man, the SSM is still such a hot and painful topic for him. He has not forgiven me for this-- even though it has been more than a year since I had my personal breakthrough around the SSM and (I have felt) demonstrating to him that I'm not that person anymore (for me). He is really still hanging on to this, and also resentment around incidents where he felt controlled/belittled by me that are like 5-7 years old. He brought one up, and while he talked about it calmly and how he felt at the time, the anger/disappointment/feelings of being dismissed or not good enough were still clearly right there. I apologized and told him I was wrong. (I was.) He was floored, said as many times as he's brought that incident up I'd never actually just straight up apologized, I always had a reason for why I behaved the way I did. (Not sure, but I'll give him that... if he didn't think I apologized, then I clearly didn't do a good enough job.)
--I am in this weird space about the SSM. When I had the breakthrough experience (weirdly, around the same time as Pommy had a similar experience) I also let go of all these bottled- up resentments I had been holding on for years that had been contributing to the SSM from my side. Like totally let them go to the point I can't really remember what they are and they sound stupid when I try to explain. I've told him this, and also taken responsibility, but he still has a lot of unprocessed anger around the fact that it happened and then also the fact that I 'changed my mind' one day and he felt expected him to come a-running when I snapped my fingers. For me, I'm grateful that I had this experience because it did allow me to rediscover myself as a woman, not just a mom; it let me SEE my H again, not just the simulcrum I'd been building up in my head; and it is so freeing to drop all those resentments and truly let them go. I'm hopeful at some point my H can do the same, and I don't actually think we'll ever get to M2.0 until this happens. Hopefully it is something we can work on together in MC when we can get back there, but I know this is something he needs to do for himself. Right? Or am I missing something? Any advice here? It is hard to talk about because he is still so angry and hurt about it, even when he is talking about it calmly.
--For newbies-- I just want to reinforce how very, very long all of this takes. It has been over a year since I read DR and implemented a number of 180s. One of these was being supportive about H doing some of his own stuff, and also taking time to do things just for me. This was a big 180 for me as (I'm embarrassed to say) I was not cool with time H took away from "the family" to do things for himself, and as much as H would push me to go and do things for myself I never took him up on them, because I felt guilty. This 180 was huge for me-- again, for ME-- I have discovered so much joy and peace in taking time for myself, shedding the guilt that I shouldn't be spending time and money on something just for me-- and also valuing the time apart when he goes surfing or whatever and I can sleep in. It is a major and beneficial change for both of us. When we spoke last night, he said he still feels like I just tolerate him doing his stuff and he feels guilty about it. I was floored. I have actively supported and encouraged this for more than a year. I have not once said anything that could be construed as guilt-inducing (and I know this, because I know how I used to do it-- and again, I no longer have those feelings of resentment around him doing things for himself. I truly mean it when I tell him to go and have fun.) During the lockdown, I've told him to get out and surf more because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to surf these uncrowded places without all the tourists. I said this, and he didn't disagree with me-- he said, OK, I guess you are right-- but he had internalized all this to the point that he's still holding on to a paradigm that ended more than a year ago. So here's a situation where we have been living under the same roof for all these months, I've implemented a 180 with, in this case, perfect or near-perfect consistency, been LOVING how it makes me feel-- and my H still doesn't truly trust it. I feel badly for him on this, since I know how awful it is to have any solo time tinged with guilt. (Any advice for me? Just keep it up? Should I make more of a point of it or just do what feels right to me?)
Overall, I am really glad I was able to ask all these questions and get them answered without feeling like I was pulling teeth or having to ask the exact right question to be sure I was getting the full answer. He also re-committed to it being over with AP and her being out of our lives, and if for any reason she ever tries to contact him, he'll let me know before responding. I said it was important to me that we feel like we're partners in this and he said he felt like we were. (I hadn't been feeling that so much.) We had been snippy towards each other all week, I think because the weight of knowing this conversation was coming was on both of us. I finally feel like I have what I need to put the A in the rearview mirror.'
But wow, we still have so much to work through. We did sleep together afterwards and I think we'll continue to talk about stuff, though for now I'm done digging into the "what happened" during the A. Still want to talk about the whys.
Wow, May! You've been waiting for that conversation for ages. Glad it finally happened.
may, I am so happy for you that you two are so open with each other. The little parts that your H was honest about still having to work through those thoughts himself first - it is a huge step for him to tell you that and for you to give him that time.
I feel badly for him on this, since I know how awful it is to have any solo time tinged with guilt. (Any advice for me? Just keep it up? Should I make more of a point of it or just do what feels right to me?)
I would say just keep doing what you're doing. action over words. or action along with words. continue to encourage him to have his own personal time and show him that you are truly okay with it.
M is a long journey in itself, the work will probably continue on forever. you guys are doing great!
During the lockdown, I've told him to get out and surf more because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to surf these uncrowded places without all the tourists. I said this, and he didn't disagree with me-- he said, OK, I guess you are right-- but he had internalized all this to the point that he's still holding on to a paradigm that ended more than a year ago. So here's a situation where we have been living under the same roof for all these months, I've implemented a 180 with, in this case, perfect or near-perfect consistency, been LOVING how it makes me feel-- and my H still doesn't truly trust it. I feel badly for him on this, since I know how awful it is to have any solo time tinged with guilt. (Any advice for me? Just keep it up? Should I make more of a point of it or just do what feels right to me?)
I can really resonate with this - and I'm going to post about something similar on my thread later, so would appreciate your insight too, if you have any.
My gut feeling here is that this is his work to do, and anything that you do or don't do with the aim of getting him to see or accept or trust your changes is likely to come of as manipulative - you want him to get on board and accept your changes because sure - he'll be happier - but also because he's then more likely to act in ways you want him to, right?
I think his work is to look carefully at who you are today, rather than seeing you through the lens of the past, or his own resentment or hurt or lack of trust. And he will either do that, or not do it, in his own time. I think here, some detachment for you is needed: his reactions to or opinions about your changes are his own to deal with, and how he feels as a result of his lack of trust is also on him. You just live your life the best way you know how, and respond to him as he is today the best way you know how.
This all sounds very positive May.
It is so positive to me that you two are able to have these difficult conversations, and it seems like both of you are okay that things aren't necessarily resolved during the convo. It's an ongoing process, and I also think it's such a good sign your H is using his IC time to really try to understand himself in a new way. It sounds like, whereas you've been doing that kind of work for more than a year in earnest, it's begun more recently for your H; he's moving at his own pace, there, and perhaps his gradual understanding of why he did what he did will also come with gradual understanding of
your experience, and of the SSM.
Man, the SSM is still such a hot and painful topic for him. He has not forgiven me for this-- even though it has been more than a year since I had my personal breakthrough around the SSM and (I have felt) demonstrating to him that I'm not that person anymore (for me). He is really still hanging on to this, and also resentment around incidents where he felt controlled/belittled by me that are like 5-7 years old.
Every time I read about your H's experience of this, I'm sent back to BD, when my H really expressed anger and hurt around the SSM fully for the first time. It reminds me I am still grappling with not taking total responsibility for where we are now because of the SSM, still struggling to fully forgive myself for not understanding or realizing how it was affecting him.
He said something along the lines of me thinking that now that I want to have sex, that will make things all better. That it is like five years ago he was saying he was really thirsty, and now he's covered in third degree burns and I'm offering him water.
It's been more than a year and your H hasn't forgiven you; it's no surprise, then, that my H still seems super angry sometimes, and he's off in his own MLC world. When I wrote the apology letter last fall, I straight up apologized, without offering explanations or reasons, for my part in the SSM and the fact that I hadn't been able to make changes I needed to make. So, this probably isn't the right attitude, but part of me thinks... really? Why is it taking so long for him to forgive you? You can't change the past! I also realize this is my impatience, my wanting my H to forgive me, my feeling like I deserve forgiveness myself, even though I know that his granting it is beyond my control. I know reclaiming your sexuality has been really empowering for you regardless of your H, may, but in that process did you every struggle with blaming yourself or fully forgiving yourself? If so, was letting go of this a gradual process for you or did it just click one day?
I may be hijacking a bit here, may! I apologize if I am. Feel free to say more on my thread if you can.
I'm hopeful at some point my H can do the same, and I don't actually think we'll ever get to M2.0 until this happens. Hopefully it is something we can work on together in MC when we can get back there, but I know this is something he needs to do for himself. Right? Or am I missing something? Any advice here? It is hard to talk about because he is still so angry and hurt about it, even when he is talking about it calmly.
Ultimately, the heartening part for me is that he's there, with you, committed to talking and working through this, in spite of the fact that he's stuck on the SSM and hasn't yet been able to let go of resentments like you have. I agree that it is absolutely something he needs to do for himself, and something you can't do for him. It seems like MC/IC will be helpful with this process. And, like Allison said, it's also part of his work to let go of the me-time guilt.
Gosh, this really is a never-ending process, but look how far you've come! Look how far you both have come. I think your advice to yourself in the second-to-last post applies here too:
But I am trying to tell myself (channeling Yail) that it hasn't been very long at all, that things are improving slowly, not to write my future before I get there. And that he has healing and processing to do too, both about the A and his behavior but about the SSM too.
(((may)))
Wow , May! You covered a lot of ground. I'm super-impressed that you remembered all that and were able to write it down!.
He said that he went through phases when he was closer to me when if he had any communication he'd delete it immediately and times when things were more strained between us that he'd "clean up" after himself less... we didn't get into why.
Same with my H. he deleted every Whatsapp converstaion but also got sloppy at times. His IC said that the sloppiness was probably intentional - he wanted me to find out so that everything could come out in the open, and he didnt have to hide anymore. I remember after I found out that he had taken a day off work to spend with EAP he said "i guess you can kick me out now". I think they get to a point where they know that the situation they have created is not sustainable and they dont know how to get out; they need someone else to take control,, or for the dynamics to change.
-- He said he's been talking with his IC about the fact that when he was in the A, he felt like it made sense that he didn't feel the "in love" feelings with me because those feelings were elsewhere. Now that those feelings are not really there anymore for AP, he still isn't feeling them strongly for me and he doesn't know what to make of that. He said he still feels kind of ambivalent about sex, that we still don't have a "deep emotional connection." I asked him if he thought we used to and lost it or if we never had it, he said he thought we had it and lost it. Then he said maybe deep emotional connection is the wrong word, maybe "emotional intimacy." I feel like he's searching for that "in love" limerent feeling and he'll never get it again with me.
He is still healing - from what you said a few paras previously about not wanting to relive the conversation about how he ended the A, he is still very much a WIP. Is he putting pressure on himself that he should feel a certain way by a certain point in time? You mention there are also strong feelings (resentments, betrayal) still regarding the SSM. What does he feel needs to happen to be able to heal from that?
The spotlight is very much on him to explain away the A. Is that a resentment for him? I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this, but in my own sitch, I am mindful that my H's behaviour has been appalling, he stepped outside the M and yet I almost feel gulity that he is the bad guy when it was me who drove him away (not withstanding that it takes 2 to wreck a M). It's almost like I "made" him do it and now I'm blaming him and making him feel guilty while I sit here with a halo on. This is a conversation I want to reach deep into with my H.
You are making huge progress May, and so is he. I'm so pleased that you've been able to address some of what you needed to understand. Keep going!
The spotlight is very much on him to explain away the A. Is that a resentment for him? I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this, but in my own sitch, I am mindful that my H's behaviour has been appalling, he stepped outside the M and yet I almost feel gulity that he is the bad guy when it was me who drove him away (not withstanding that it takes 2 to wreck a M). It's almost like I "made" him do it and now I'm blaming him and making him feel guilty while I sit here with a halo on. This is a conversation I want to reach deep into with my H.
This is so insightful, Pommy. I know when I look back at my role in my marriage going wrong, I feel a lot of sorrow. There's a very fine balance to be had between taking responsibility for your own actions and their contribution, and taking so much responsibility that you rob your partner of the space to deal with their own stuff and take responsibility for that. I know blame is a way of shifting responsibility onto others, and the kind of unproductive guilt that turns you into a doormat can often involve absorbing responsibility for stuff that rightly belongs to someone else.
What also compounds this is that when any of us feel guilty or ashamed or sorrowful about our past behaviour - knowing that we've hurt ourselves and our partners and our marriage, knowing that we've really let ourselves down and we aren't the person we wanted to be - we cry out for some kind of reassurance or comfort. Usually, when we mess up, it is our partner we turn to for that unconditional acceptance or understanding. For the safe place to heal and lick our wounds before we get back out there in the world and do better. But when the person you've hurt is your partner, that safe place is gone - for them, yes, and that's more important - but for you too. I think there's a lot of that going on in most of our situations - Wayward Spouses feeling awful for what they've done, and not being able to access the comfort and safety and understanding of their partners, so they cope by minimising or denying or blaming. I don't know what the answer is - other than, for a while, a third party to provide some of that acceptance and safety and empathy - not an AP, but a therapist. And that takes a lot of time.
Wooba, CW, Alison, Cardinal, Pommy... I really am so grateful to all of you. Thank you for being there for me.
My gut feeling here is that this is his work to do, and anything that you do or don't do with the aim of getting him to see or accept or trust your changes is likely to come of as manipulative - you want him to get on board and accept your changes because sure - he'll be happier - but also because he's then more likely to act in ways you want him to, right?
I think his work is to look carefully at who you are today, rather than seeing you through the lens of the past, or his own resentment or hurt or lack of trust. And he will either do that, or not do it, in his own time. I think here, some detachment for you is needed: his reactions to or opinions about your changes are his own to deal with, and how he feels as a result of his lack of trust is also on him. You just live your life the best way you know how, and respond to him as he is today the best way you know how.
You're right, it is definitely not a selfless thing for me to want him to accept the changes and forgive the past. The more I've thought about it over the last few days, the more I think it is at least a part of the emotional blockage towards being able to really see me and love me for who I am today. I do think I didn't see him for a long time, and his AP did. Now, I feel like he is just so stuck in the past in/re our dynamic especially around sex and control that he can't see me for who I am today and can't forgive me for what he sees as my betrayal over many, many years. And, I do think it is linked to his own justification for his behavior in starting the A, so there is difficulty in him accepting the changes because he'd convinced himself I would never change, I didn't love him, I was asexual, etc. Accepting my changes means to him, I think, accepting that there were other possible ways to address the problem than the path he chose.
I agree, this is his work, and I do need to back off and let him focus on himself, no matter how much I want him to do this I can't make him-- and I also need to stay far away from anything that can be perceived as controlling or manipulative. I partially wish we were back in MC, because it gave us some structure to talk about some of this stuff-- I think his IC is a bit of an echo chamber-- but also agree that as you said in your next post, he does need an IC who can provide empathy and safety and acceptance, and I definitely think his IC does this for him. He has no-one else who would give that to him around these issues, I know. His mom wholly disapproves, and he's told his brother and one good friend tiny bits of the truth, no one else.
Wooba, to your point, maybe now that I've pointed it out he'll be more attuned (or not)-- all I can do is just keep doing what I've been doing and he'll either accept it and lose his guilt or not.
Wow, May! You covered a lot of ground. I'm super-impressed that you remembered all that and were able to write it down!
Ha, this is partially my journal these days and it really helps me to get it all out on paper. Also, if I treat this space like my journal, I think it helps keep me honest. Sometimes I write down things he said that I have some discomfort around and wonder if they'll be called out by other posters. It actually helps me get a better sense of how I feel about things when I think of how the board might respond.
he deleted every Whatsapp converstaion but also got sloppy at times. His IC said that the sloppiness was probably intentional - he wanted me to find out so that everything could come out in the open, and he didnt have to hide anymore. I remember after I found out that he had taken a day off work to spend with EAP he said "i guess you can kick me out now". I think they get to a point where they know that the situation they have created is not sustainable and they dont know how to get out; they need someone else to take control,, or for the dynamics to change.
I had the same thought when he said this. He told me the other night what he had been waiting for was, weirdly, my blessing. He needed that in order to leave. (He also said he didn't remember me saying to go, which I know I did very clearly and he refused to, right after the final BD multiple times... he said he never felt it was real. I'm not 100% sure what to make of that, if I was failing at DB, if he was hearing what he wanted to hear, or if his memory is fuzzy and colored with what has happened since.)
The spotlight is very much on him to explain away the A. Is that a resentment for him? I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this, but in my own sitch, I am mindful that my H's behaviour has been appalling, he stepped outside the M and yet I almost feel gulity that he is the bad guy when it was me who drove him away (not withstanding that it takes 2 to wreck a M). It's almost like I "made" him do it and now I'm blaming him and making him feel guilty while I sit here with a halo on. This is a conversation I want to reach deep into with my H.
Do you mean do I feel resentment towards him about the A? Yes I do, though not a huge amount. It surfaces more when I feel frustrated about the pace of "recovery" and the feeling that he hasn't really grappled with why beyond the pat long-term explanation of the SSM. He said the other night it never would have happened if we were having sex. That when he first met AP she asked him about our marriage and he said to her he had a great marriage, and then when they talked more he started to question it because of the SSM. He told her how infrequently we slept together and she was like REALLY?!?? which made him "realize" our R was not, actually, all that great, which then made him question his whole life and the fact that he thought it was normal that we rarely slept together-- because I'd told him it was-- then morphed into I controlled everything, even how he thought, etc etc.
Anyway... all that to say that in our conversations it really hasn't been me with the halo and him the big bad guy. I almost feel the opposite, that he blames me for setting the environment in which he was tempted to stray, even though he's careful to say he knows what he did was really terrible, etc. I feel like I'm pushing him to go beyond that explanation he's relied on for all these months and understand what the tipping point was, when he could have stopped it before he got in too deep. I feel like it snowballed also in that as he engaged further and further into the A, he felt like he had to be serious with it because otherwise what was he doing? He's said this to me a few times-- again the other night-- that what was he doing with two years of his life, hurting me, potentially hurting the kids, hurting AP-- all for what? And I do want him to grapple with this and really take responsibility for his choices. I don't feel he's really there yet.
With the SSM, I'm definitely willing to engage in my own behaviors and why and how it needs to change. I told him I'm willing to dig in there for as long as it takes for him to heal and forgive me... but at some point he will need to forgive me, and we'll also have to dig into his side of the equation.
Cardinal, I want to address the SSM questions you have but am running out of time... will do it either here or on your own thread soon!
May, you are so self-reflective and aware of the complex dynamics happening with your H and within your R. It is impressive.
Reading your post, the thing that keeps standing out to me is that you both need more time. When you look deep, what are your expectations for the timeline of this process? Did you hope that it would move more swiftly than it has? How is that impacting your view of your current status? Or impacting your feelings towards H?
From an outsider's perspective, the time between the end of the PA and today seems like a relatively short period of time. Especially since this A was going on for 2 years. All the folks in piecing (BluWave being a prime example) have taken years to get to the bottom of some of the issues you are reflecting on.
Do you think that your self-awareness has allowed you to move on quicker than your H? So that you are about a mile ahead of him, impatiently waiting for him to hurry and catch up with you (you have changed! You have forgiven, more or less! You are here and ready to start the repairs in earnest!)? Which plays into May the controller dynamic for your H?
Sorry if I am out of place with this. But what if you took his lead on the timeline? What would it feel like to be grateful for his breadcrumbs again instead of frustrated at his lack of heartily leaning in? The breadcrumb analogy may be poorly placed, but where I am headed is having less expectations right now. Trusting H's process as much as you trust your own. Maybe there is a middle ground? Could you address this with your H?
Take it all with a grain of salt, I would be thrilled to be in your shoes right now, so I may be projecting!
Hi Sage,
You're completely right on the timeline and my impatience. Patience has always been very difficult for me and this entire situation has been an exercise in learning to stretch that muscle, but it is still uncomfortable for me and something I need to keep working on. I don't think I had specific expectations, or if I did they were further out, like I thought it would take a good three months for him to get over AP and be in a place where rebuilding the M with me would be possible, and maybe six months to a year to get to a place where we'd at least know if it was going to work or not.
It is just that it takes a toll, not feeling wanted (which would make my H go nuts given the SSM). In the crisis mode, where you probably are right now and I was for a good amount of time, not knowing what was going on with the AP, was he going to choose to stay or go, worrying all the time about the children and finances and all the rest-- you're running on adrenaline. Your whole body is in fight-or-flight and I shoved down a lot of the feelings I had about what I was feeling personally about the whole thing in order to stand, to DB, to focus on the children (which was what I told myself over and over was the reason I was even willing to stand for the M). With some distance and a measure of safety, I have gone through some bouts of anger and also feeling the loss for myself of a romantic/loving H. I saw what you wrote on Pommy's thread and that re-establishment of limerence, dating, romantic gestures-- none of that is present right now and TBH I want it.
It is ironic that for years and years, what I have right now would have been absolutely ideal. Great H, father, partner, funny, caring, supportive, doing waaaaay more of the cooking and shopping and household work than he ever had before, and mostly not bothering me for sex... I would have been in heaven. Now, of course, I want the whole package. I think also for me I've had this vision, stemming from all the reading I've done about infidelity and recovery, that maybe we had to go through this trauma in order to get to M2.0 that will be way better and more fulfilling than M1.0 ever was. I think I want this to all have been worth it.
A couple of months ago I went through an angry phase and really wanting my questions answered, and some wise folks on this board talked me down and said exactly what you're saying-- take it slow, his timeline is not yours, let it be. He is doing what he can right now. And I was actually able to do that until the last couple of weeks when I started agitating again about wanting to close the door on the questions about the A. I actually feel really good about that part, I'm glad we got through it, it was far, far better than the same conversation would have gone two months ago. So, my dropping expectations, refocusing on myself and what I can control, and letting him go through his own process-- in that case it worked. I just need to keep doing it. (And as an aside, I think with the May the controller dynamic, this is probably the only way forward for us as a couple-- he really needs to feel an equal partner and contributor to the pace and work, etc.)
Thanks for this... it was really helpful.
Hey May,
I've been lurking on you but haven't had much to say. Since the anniversary I've been in a really weird space and I'm only really commenting when I feel like I can contribute anything of use. But I wanted to drop in and let you know I'm here an I care. And I'm paying attention
I'm so glad to hear how well that talk went for you. And I'm even more excited to hear how you're working on our 2 favorite things patience and control...lol.
It is ironic that for years and years, what I have right now would have been absolutely ideal. Great H, father, partner, funny, caring, supportive, doing waaaaay more of the cooking and shopping and household work than he ever had before, and mostly not bothering me for sex... I would have been in heaven. Now, of course, I want the whole package. I think also for me I've had this vision, stemming from all the reading I've done about infidelity and recovery, that maybe we had to go through this trauma in order to get to M2.0 that will be way better and more fulfilling than M1.0 ever was. I think I want this to all have been worth it.
My IC and my bff asked me this week how are H and I getting along. Kind of a yeah I get it you're sleeping together and stuck in the house but how are you really doing thing. And I said great. We get along great. We don't fight. We still get a little annoyed with each other once in a while. But it's mostly him taking jokes too far or getting moody. Or me and my "well actually" or when I say my this or my that instead of our. For some reason that gets him lately. IDK. But he's exactly the H I wanted like a year ago. Helpful around the house. Helpful with the family workload period. We have sex 3 days a week when I had to beg for it before. He's thoughtful. He's considerate. But I think that has also caused a lot of the weirdness I'm feeling right now. Like I want all the crap I've been through to be worth it. Just like you said. With this version of my H. But with the romance. Like the sex is great. The parenting is great. The roommate part is great. But I'm ready for my whole husband. And I'm so tired of being partly his wife. Honestly I think this is where the idea of piecing comes from. Because with my experience as a WW and now as an LBS I can see the relationship doesn't come back all at once with a cheater on their knees begging for forgiveness. This isn't the movies. We have to each put our selves back together first. Then then MR comes back together one piece at at time. Then it's a matter of structuring all those pieces back together in a very kintsugi kind of way. While the process is beautiful. It's really exhausting.
(And as an aside, I think with the May the controller dynamic, this is probably the only way forward for us as a couple-- he really needs to feel an equal partner and contributor to the pace and work, etc.)
This also came up with IC and bff this week, but in diametrically opposing ways. IC wanted to know what I felt I needed from him if he says he wants to try. I said he needs to fix himself, and be willing to work on the MR. I want him in IC and I want do what ever he's willing to tolerate to work on our MR: counseling, retreats, webinars, online classes, workshops, books, I don't care as long as it isn't more of the same. And we can't just pretend none of this happened. I know he's not ok. He really should speak to someone. Also I've been doing all this work on me. For what if we do R and I just let him dictate that too? IC felt, like all the vets and all the books say, that I have every right to require something of him for him to return. And that it can be whatever I feel I need. But that I may need to work on gentle ways of asking for what I need, because let's be real, I'm not gentle. Bff however felt more that maybe my expectations need to be a little lower because IC is a super personal decision. That maybe I really need to focus on what I want from him as far as working on our MR and in the process he might come to the conclusion on his own that he should address somethings. Because well, I have control issues, (shock right?) and she worries that me demanding what I think I need would set us back instead of trying to find a way to collaborate on getting back on track. That equal partner thing....ugh. I know that's the goal but dear lord why does this have to be so much work? lol
I feel like my sitch is always about 2 or 3 steps behind yours. So your posts always give me hope, and somethings to think about going forward. But they also remind me that I'm just not done being exhausted yet. Lots of love, May.
xoxo
WF, first of all I want to bow to you for using the concept of kintsugi in your post. At my lowest moments, I imagine all my broken parts being healed in gold and somehow being a more beautiful person in spite of my brokenness. Well placed analogy, bravo.
May and WF, I see so much progress in both of your stories. You both rave about your current partners:
But he's exactly the H I wanted like a year ago. Helpful around the house. Helpful with the family workload period. We have sex 3 days a week when I had to beg for it before. He's thoughtful. He's considerate.
It is ironic that for years and years, what I have right now would have been absolutely ideal. Great H, father, partner, funny, caring, supportive, doing waaaaay more of the cooking and shopping and household work than he ever had before, and mostly not bothering me for sex... I would have been in heaven.
What specifically is missing? Can you write it out and distill it into manageable benchmarks? This is a rhetorical question because I know that you both feel like a lot is missing and you both have defined some of those holes in your posts. What I am asking for more specifically is to write down what you need and want. In that process you may find that there are some easy fixes, some unattainable ones, and probably a whole ton of them that just need a lot of time to live their way to fruition. Patience is hard for you both, and I am cut of the same cloth so I completely relate.
I am going to go back to the conversation I had with my friend about present tense-future thinking. Writing down your goals in the present tense as if they have already happened to you. Start with I am, I feel, etc. It's a little woo woo, but the power of manifestation starts with intention and is actualized in tiny subconscious decisions we unknowingly make that lead us to our goals.
may - first off, kudos. I've had time to keep up with reading but not with commenting. Wanted to briefly chime in and say:
I feel like it snowballed also in that as he engaged further and further into the A, he felt like he had to be serious with it because otherwise what was he doing? He's said this to me a few times-- again the other night-- that what was he doing with two years of his life, hurting me, potentially hurting the kids, hurting AP-- all for what? And I do want him to grapple with this and really take responsibility for his choices. I don't feel he's really there yet.
Is he afraid to admit he made a mistake and put people he love through a world of hurt? It's not like he doesn't know this, on some level. When I have felt that way about mistakes in my past (not even marriage related necessary) - sometimes the 'for what' is to grow as a person and learn a lesson. Sometimes that really affects the lives of others, but sometimes there aren't other ways to learn the full lesson. If you guys frame it that way together, do you think he'd be receptive?
WF, I just posted on your thread... I feel you. I am so exhausted too. I love the kintsugi idea but am like omg how long is this going to take? Where are we exactly in this journey? And what if when you get to the end of the whole process, there is still a big shard missing?
Maybe I need to take a break from the boards... IDK. I definitely feel like I've been spending more time here than I should. I think I've been so tied to the idea espoused here that for true R/piecing to happen, the WS needs to be remorseful and open and willing to do whatever it takes to win you back, and I just don't see that ever happening. My H will do MC but I doubt he's going to read all the books or go to workshops or weekend retreats or any of that stuff. It will feel too much to him like control, I think. He thinks I want to wave a magic wand or do a 12 step process and things will all be better. That isn't true (I mean it sure would be lovely! But it isn't what I'm asking for) but I just don't see him being willing to do anything that feels inauthentic.
I'm leaning towards your bff here over your counselor in terms of where I should be... just letting go of all my expectations for how R "should" go and doing what feels right to me. And if it doesn't work, if we can't put it all back together again, if the missing piece is too big for me to live with... well, then, I guess we go from there.
But... that deep desire to have had this all be worth it is just so strong. It is what got me this far. And I'm scared that in the end it won't have been enough, he was right all along. We had all these discussions (before I knew the full extent of the A) about the state of our "emotional connection" (I swear if I never have to hear that phrase again I'll be ecstatic). He kept throwing out metaphors to demonstrate it was irreparable and I kept refuting them (bridge could be rebuilt, tree stump regrows, etc). However-- to Sage's point-- I think you need to believe it can be fixed and want it to be fixed in order for it to actually be possible for it to be fixed. And I'm not sure he thinks any of that right now. And I'm starting to get tired of being the only one who believes it.
Sage, I like your thoughts around intention setting and manifestation and think I might do some work around that, really think about the questions you have about what's missing and what I want and focus there. One question, though-- I've tried this whole time to have the focus of work like this on me, not reliant on my H. I feel like what I'm missing now is on his side, not mine (though of course there is still work I can do on myself). Thoughts about that?
Also... hahaha, my H is far from perfect. It cracks me up to think that in any way shape or form I can come across as raving about him. He can also still be kind of an a-hole. I am generally better at dealing with it when it happens and he is also generally better about not doing it in the first place and apologizing when he does, but it is still there. And we still bicker about stupid stuff. But overall things are much better.
WF-- 3 times a week! Dang, woman! I'm jealous
(and Sage, there you are, one of my holes in my current R... I do want to be swept off my feet and made love to all night long by someone who thinks I'm gorgeous and amazing and all the rest.)
Thanks, all. I need to spend some time figuring out how to re-center myself and re-focus on me. xx
WF, I just posted on your thread... I feel you. I am so exhausted too. I love the kintsugi idea but am like omg how long is this going to take? Where are we exactly in this journey? And what if when you get to the end of the whole process, there is still a big shard missing?
So the missing shard thing had me thinking last night. And honestly my immediate reaction was a piece cut to match. That's the thing. Is even is there is a piece missing, it doesn't mean the work was for nothing. Or that you have to give up on the whole thing. The MR 2.0 I think about looks like our old MR on the surface but upon closer inspection it's not. And if we have to mold the new pieces of our selves, because neither one of us is coming out the other side of this the same, to fit then that's what we do. And if we just can't make the pieces work, then at least I know I did everything I could to try to make something beautiful out of this mess. I do have to keep talking myself down about timeline though. This stuff takes time. And I think if we talked more about us. If he said he's trying. If he said he's not looking to move out I think I'd be more patient. Do you think there's anything directly effecting your patience here? You know something that isn't just A type urgency.
Maybe I need to take a break from the boards... IDK. I definitely feel like I've been spending more time here than I should. I think I've been so tied to the idea espoused here that for true R/piecing to happen, the WS needs to be remorseful and open and willing to do whatever it takes to win you back, and I just don't see that ever happening. My H will do MC but I doubt he's going to read all the books or go to workshops or weekend retreats or any of that stuff. It will feel too much to him like control, I think. He thinks I want to wave a magic wand or do a 12 step process and things will all be better. That isn't true (I mean it sure would be lovely! But it isn't what I'm asking for) but I just don't see him being willing to do anything that feels inauthentic.
Just to be clear, when I was listing all those things they should've had ORs in between all of them. H will not doing all of those things. He definitely wouldn't read ALL the books. Maybe 2. I'd be lucky in the long run if he picked 2 things on that list at all, and was willing to talk more about us. I think my H still thinks I'm where we were for our first DC session and wanting like 6 months of intensive counseling and then slowly weaning off if we started to work again. I'm not there any more. Then I wanted him to be fixed. Now I just want us to communicate better and for him to want to work on the MR even if it's in his own way. Which I think is the place you're kinda moving toward now.
But... that deep desire to have had this all be worth it is just so strong. It is what got me this far. And I'm scared that in the end it won't have been enough, he was right all along. We had all these discussions (before I knew the full extent of the A) about the state of our "emotional connection" (I swear if I never have to hear that phrase again I'll be ecstatic). He kept throwing out metaphors to demonstrate it was irreparable and I kept refuting them (bridge could be rebuilt, tree stump regrows, etc). However-- to Sage's point-- I think you need to believe it can be fixed and want it to be fixed in order for it to actually be possible for it to be fixed. And I'm not sure he thinks any of that right now. And I'm starting to get tired of being the only one who believes it.
First even if this all falls flat in the end you get to walk away saying you tried. You did everything you possibly could to try to make this work. You sacrificed for your MR. If nothing else you learned a lot about yourself.
Next, May, he believes it. If he didn't believe it, he wouldn't be there. He's not exactly the guy who would go back to a loveless marriage just for the kids. He's rigidity regarding "authenticity" wouldn't allow him to be in a hollow relationship for appearances sake. He's just got to work around his own narrative for a while until he's willing to really rebuild that connection. It takes two to break it, it takes two to make it.
Sage, I like your thoughts around intention setting and manifestation and think I might do some work around that, really think about the questions you have about what's missing and what I want and focus there. One question, though-- I've tried this whole time to have the focus of work like this on me, not reliant on my H. I feel like what I'm missing now is on his side, not mine (though of course there is still work I can do on myself). Thoughts about that?
Imma second this question. Also manifestation is not to woo,woo for me. I've been trying to manifest my behind off this whole time. And I've been avoiding the whole I want...I have is where I'm at these days.
Also... hahaha, my H is far from perfect. It cracks me up to think that in any way shape or form I can come across as raving about him. He can also still be kind of an a-hole. I am generally better at dealing with it when it happens and he is also generally better about not doing it in the first place and apologizing when he does, but it is still there. And we still bicker about stupid stuff. But overall things are much better.
I also second this. I wouldn't say I'm raving. I mean I'll rave about the sex. That's been pretty fantastic. But who he is in some aspects a much better version of H than I was dealing with before, but he is still not 100% H yet. Every once in a while the body snatcher pops out, he snaps out of it very quickly, but he'll get short with me or the girls for absolutely no reason out of no where. And my H was always kind of a a-hole too. Lol. That hasn't really changed. We're just both better at dealing with each other.
WF-- 3 times a week! Dang, woman! I'm jealous
(and Sage, there you are, one of my holes in my current R... I do want to be swept off my feet and made love to all night long by someone who thinks I'm gorgeous and amazing and all the rest.)
Yeah I'm not being told I'm gorgeous or amazing or any of that fun stuff. What we are doing I would not classify as love making. At all. It's not short. It's not disappointing by any means. But it is 100% not love making. And yeah. 3 times a week is a little shocking too. It's been like that since the break up with OW. It hadn't been like that since we first got serious. I can't say in the last 6 years other than on vacation has it been like this. To be totally honest a lot of my R questions are around this because I did really have to beg before. I cried on more than one occasion because his constant rejection started making me feel like it was me not him. But now it's like he can't keep his hands off me. I don't know.
May I know you got this. You will find center. You're going to be able to push through this plateau. I know it. xoxo
So the missing shard thing had me thinking last night. And honestly my immediate reaction was a piece cut to match. That's the thing. Is even is there is a piece missing, it doesn't mean the work was for nothing. Or that you have to give up on the whole thing. The MR 2.0 I think about looks like our old MR on the surface but upon closer inspection it's not. And if we have to mold the new pieces of our selves, because neither one of us is coming out the other side of this the same, to fit then that's what we do. And if we just can't make the pieces work, then at least I know I did everything I could to try to make something beautiful out of this mess.
I love that. You cut a new piece to fit. Ugh, WF, you kill me sometimes. You are just the very best. Reading this just released a whole load of anxiety I didn't really realize I was carrying.
Do you think there's anything directly effecting your patience here? You know something that isn't just A type urgency.
I'm not sure. H and I ended up having a baby R talk last night, because he made a kind of a-hole-y comment during the day, I asked why did you say that, and he gave me a real answer, which pissed me off, since I thought I was giving him an opportunity to say oh, sorry, didn't mean to hurt your feelings. We ended up having this talk where he said I have all these expectations for everything built up in my mind, and he feels like if he doesn't match them exactly word-for-word he loses. So like in this case, I asked him why he said that but I meant, you're being an a-hole and expected him to read between the lines and understand this. It was a really interesting conversation because of course my immediate response (which I was able to hold in) was totally defensive but I just listened, I told him I didn't want him to feel like that, and as we talked it through I realized he has a point, not just in this little situation but for this whole thing (we did a little jumping back and forth between this incident and the greater situation). He said he feels like I have it all laid out in my mind and if he doesn't toe the line exactly I'm upset. And that sometimes he has good ideas too.
Anyway, that combined with your question about my patience and some of our conversation on your thread yesterday got me to thinking more on expectations and timelines and patience. I don't think I have any good reasons for being impatient, just my standard I want it done yesterday. I need to keep thinking on this.
Though I could use your advice on one stupid timeline reason that I just pushed out... after BD#1, I spent some time thinking about what I wanted to do for myself. There have been a number of outcomes around self-care, exercising, yoga, etc in that realm but one thing I've wanted to do for probably a decade was botox my elevens which have been bothering me since I was in my early 30s. My H was totally against it. So when this all happened I decided to do it. I did a ton of research, found a really good doc, and got it done. I've done it every three months since then and he has NO IDEA. It is such a small amount, it isn't expensive at all, and literally no one has noticed but me... and I love it. So I had set in my mind that I would need to tell him once we Red. However, I haven't wanted to yet because I don't feel ready yet to tell him something that I think might trigger some thoughts in him of me being insecure in my looks, which both isn't really the case, but also not something I feel is a good thing for him to think about in/re to me right now. The doc's office is open again and I originally had an appointment for May, which I pushed off to this week, and now pushed off to the end of June.
If I put myself in his shoes, I'd be really pissed if I found out that I was keeping this secret and theoretically put my family at risk to go do something kind of selfish and shallow. Like all the women who have been freaking out about their botox and roots isn't who I am. And with everything going on in the world it just seems so petty and maybe that $200 is better spent donated to BLM or something. Anyway. I'm in this weird space about it because to me, getting botox had really represented the first time I made a choice to do something wholly for me and I didn't care that my H disapproved. It was like the first real statement I made to myself about being my own woman and focusing on me, and is connected to all those other things I've been working on too, being comfortable with being a woman not just a mom, etc. So part of me feels like if I stop I'm going backwards in my own journey in all of this. But I really don't feel comfortable doing it without him knowing b/c of the pandemic.
So... I know this all feels really shallow and stupid and I'm kind of embarrassed to even be sharing it here. But it is part of my confusion right now, and I did have this idea that I'd eventually tell him about the botox and he'd be able to (a) see it wasn't that big of a deal since he never even noticed (he thought it would look fake and also kind of despises plastic surgery generally) and (b) it all ties in for me with me caring for myself, doing things for myself, and if he could understand why I wanted it and accept that in me without being judgmental, it would mean a lot. At this point, I have pushed out the appointment to the end of June and I'm thinking I won't do it until I can be honest with him about it. But that partially makes me feel like I'm pushing my own needs down.
OMG I can't believe I just wrote all that about botox. I'm so tempted to delete the whole thing. Friends, don't judge me.
Now I just want us to communicate better and for him to want to work on the MR even if it's in his own way. Which I think is the place you're kinda moving toward now.
Yes, I think so... though it isn't easy for me. I'd still prefer something more organized and sooner
Next, May, he believes it. If he didn't believe it, he wouldn't be there. He's not exactly the guy who would go back to a loveless marriage just for the kids. He's rigidity regarding "authenticity" wouldn't allow him to be in a hollow relationship for appearances sake. He's just got to work around his own narrative for a while until he's willing to really rebuild that connection. It takes two to break it, it takes two to make it.
This made me feel so good to read. But I'm not 100% sure it is true. He has said he feels we have all these amazing parts of our R, just missing this one piece, and is so so dedicated to the kids right now I think he wouldn't see it as a hollow R. I think he may be thinking he will make his peace with that part maybe being gone forever but it was worth it for the sake of the children and, honestly, also for me, his best friend and partner. I want to believe this and I do agree that he needs time, needs to work around his own narrative until he's willing... I guess just another place where I need to be patient and let go of my expectations. Either he will do this or he won't, in his own time.
The other interesting thing about our mini R talk last night is that he said he's been trying to show me that he loves me through acts of service, which he knows is my primary LL. He knew I was pissy about the a-hole comment yesterday so he took the kids out on some errands and went to a special store to get me a liqueur I've been wanting for cocktails. So when we talked last night he said hey, I'm trying to show you ILY, doing these acts of service up the wazoo... and I realized that he is explicitly trying to show me he cares. So maybe there is truth to what you say, just in his own time and his own way and not exactly how I would have thought it would be done. (Yes, I clearly still have work to do here.)
May I know you got this. You will find center. You're going to be able to push through this plateau. I know it. xoxo
xoxo
Omg may you are too funny. And guess what? I also got Botox for the first time after BD!!! Lol!!!! Although I didn’t plan on doing it, I was in the drs office for a laser skin treatment, but they ended up recommending Botox also. I was feeling brave so I agreed. I have to say I’m not a big fan of it yet, my forehead area sure felt kind of strange for a few weeks lol. But I totally am there with you that I wanted to do something for myself. It is superficial and shallow? Sure. Can the money be used somewhere else with more significance? I think that question itself is you judging your own decision. Doing something good (donating money to a cause) and self-care are not mutually exclusive. It’s not either or. You can do both. It’s like feeling guilty buying a $7 latte. You shouldn’t feel guilty. It’s your own money, do what you want with it. The value you derive from it will not be the same for somebody else. You are caring way too much about how he’d perceive it. (Wasn’t the whole point for you to do something for yourself and not care what he thinks?)
I told my H about the laser skin treatment (couldn’t hide it really, i had scarring on my face in the beginning) but I didn’t tell him about the Botox. But I also didn’t tell any of my girlfriends. I was a little embarrassed and I didn’t want to be perceived as one of those women on real housewives (which I am so not lol!!!). But frankly it’s nobody’s business. I don’t feel guilty for not telling him, and I don’t think there is a need to tell him. If one day he notices and asks I will go with the flow and let him know. I think of it as...if you buy a really expensive moisturizer, would you give that much thought about whether you should tell your H about it or not? If money is not an issue, who cares? Pamper yourself. Love yourself the way that you want to. It’s probably safer to go to a drs office for Botox than going to a grocery store anyway. Ha.
Another thing I kinda wanna try is eyelash extensions. But I think there’s a lot of maintenance and upkeep and I’m too lazy for that.
I’m so glad we’re talking about something fun for us ladies!! Lol!!
Honestly the botox thing is super confusing for me because in my head I would've thrown that sh** in his face the second I did it. Like look at me getting hot for literally any one but you. But that goes back to our petty conversations...lol. But I do get the withholding things. I've been digging in to a lot of childhood stuff with IC and I really really want to tell my this man I see as my best friend about a lot of things I left out about my relationship with my mother and her boyfriends, and her husband. I want him to understand why a lot of the things I do and say are a trauma responses. And that I don't mean to control. Or talk over. Or bury things until I explode. But I feel like why would I want to say these super super personal things to a person who doesn't even know if he wants to stay married to me. Why would I expose my self like that? I feel like the botox is your thing here. Why expose your self to ridicule or judgement or let him into something that made you feel like crap about yourself when you have no idea if investing like that will give you any return.
That all being said, I don't think it's selfish or silly if you get the treatment in a couple weeks. I'm with Wooba. There's a bigger chance of exposure for essentials than something non-essential and if this is taking care of May, take care of May. How you want to handle it with H, well at least you have a little more time to think on that.
Haha Wooba, WF! Wooba, I loooooove that you did it too. I actually also have been getting laser skin treatments
After BD, I told H I was going to spend some money on myself and I expected not to hear a word about it. And I didn't. I got some pretty expensive facials, haircuts, lost 20 lbs (now creeping back up), laser hair removal and laser facials (Genesis is pretty amazing), collagen supplements, and Botox. I can do 25 pushups in a row (got up to 40 but that was back in November, been lazy in the past few months). I bought a bunch of new clothes, nice swimsuits, took time to go to yoga and swim. Botox is also the one thing I haven't told anyone about (now except for you guys here!!).
WF, for me it wasn't about telling him what I was doing but just doing it... and yes, tbh, I hoped he noticed. (The laser hair removal was a part of me reclaiming my sexuality and I think when he noticed *that* it was a little of the "look at me getting hot for the next guy" lol). But the majority of it was being confident in myself and how I looked especially if I was going to get back on the market so to speak, and feeling sexy/like a woman instead of just a sloppy mom.
I actually have gone back to get laser treatments the last couple of weeks and he knows and was totally cool with it... and I'm sure that the Botox will be even less potential risk than the laser treatment, which he was fine with. I just have been trying to think about if things were reversed.... we've been discussing the relative safety of everything we've been doing, and I just feel like doing it secretly feels wrong. I don't want to be in a position where it comes back that I did something in secret. If it wasn't for the lockdown it would be no big deal, I'd just still be doing my thing and he wouldn't even know nor would it be none of his business-- Wooba, just like you describe. It is just this weird combination of us in this sloooooow maybe-beginning-piecing place, with me feeling like I'm not secure enough in where we are right now to tell him this one thing, but also that it would be hypocritical of me to do it secretly in the current sitch.
I love that you girls are doing something for yourselves!! Anything that brings a tiny bit of self-confidence back in the face of rejection is totally A-OK. I mean, isn’t it better to get a little bit of personal work done than have an ACTUAL affair to boost your self-esteem? Pick your poison? I would choose the same path as you, May & Wooba.
And May, I get the whole ‘exposure’ argument, but in light of the exposure your H put you through by sleeping with someone else, a session in a hygenic doctor’s office (safer than a grocery store right now!) pales in comparison. If you get s*** from H for taking care of yourself and doing what feels good to you (in a non-cheating way), then he is not worth your time. Sorry, that’s harsh. But I don’t think you should be ashamed or guilty when you bring this up to him. (Coming from a woman whose H NEVER liked me even wearing makeup, despite his career working with models). You do YOU, girl and don’t be sorry for it!
But I get the side of you that needs to be honest with him. In light of your need for him to be honest with you. You need a level playing field, right? I guess my only caution is to not approach this as the same level of ‘honesty’. Tell him, if that makes you feel OK, but don’t approach it in your heart as the same level of dishonesty. Stand tall, be beautiful, and say ‘while you were busy ELSEWHERE, I chose to do this for myself and it feels right and makes ME feel good about myself and I am going to continue it’ and close the door on the discussion.
Xx
I love reading this. May, I don't think you have any obligation to tell your H what you do with your personal money and your body. I get what you're saying about taking a risk with exposure to Covid (much less than picking up groceries or putting fuel in the car though, probably...) and wanting to be honest, but you know, every marriage needs mystery and I don't tell H what happens at the beautician either. We have a similar amount of spending money each month and I have no idea what he does with his - I spend half and save half and planned to take the savings and go on a holiday somewhere later this summer - I hadn't even discussed the thought with him and I know we have our problems, but I also know that 100% he wouldn't mind this.
Having said all that, I think my H would have a problem with botox too. I don't care to have it right now, but if that changed, I would 100% go get it and not tell him so long as the money wasn't impacting on family finances. I sometimes joke about having a breast augmentation (I'm naturally slight and two lots of breast feedings have not been kind to me) and he really strongly objects to that too. I actually don't want either of these things enough to bother with the conflict, but I think I'd stick to my guns if I felt strongly about it. I have many tattoos - some of them quite large - and I know he would prefer me not to have them. *shrugs*
I think I've let my self-care go a bit recently. I dress smartly for work - but now I am working at home I am mainly in my dog-walking clothes and hair scraped back. The hair salons and beauty places aren't open here yet, and I don't have any regular treatments along the lines you are discussing but I have been feeling so BLEAUGH lately, stuck in the house so much in my scruffy clothes. I suspect I've put on a little weight (just a little) and definitely feel unfit and out of condition. I need to step up a bit in this area and get myself feeling good again.
Thanks Sage, Alison. I know you're both right. It truly is none of his business anyway. And I agree about the relative safety of a doctor's appointment. We just spent a couple of hours at a protest and while everyone was wearing masks, I was thinking it was kind of ridiculous that we've been so, so careful all this time and I'm worried about going into a doctor's office for a 10 minute appointment with a mask on and here we are with thousands of other people. Ugh. Also, I actually don't really think he would care all that much, especially once he realizes he didn't even notice and I've been doing it for a year. It is more that it feels enough beyond the run-of-the-mill self-care and I don't want him to think I lack self-confidence in my looks at this particular juncture. He knows it has bothered me for ages. Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's advice here. I think I'll keep my end of the month appointment and just decide if I want to tell him about it or not as we get closer.
With money, we have never really had separate money. We have an informal thing where we check in with the other if we're spending more than usual on something, or buying something for the house we usually talk it through, do research, etc. TBH, before BD I was the one who was more stingy with $ and would get annoyed with him for spending $ on things I thought were just for him ("selfish") or frivolious. Probably plays into the whole control thing. Whereas he always encouraged me to spend $ on myself and I never really wanted to because I felt guilty. This was the dynamic for a long time and he has said even now he feels guilty when buying something for himself, even though (like surfing) I really came to the realization that I was being horrible to him on this a year or so ago and stopped caring if he spent money on records or t-shirts or expensive beer or whatever he wants. (I used to get REALLY annoyed about the records.) Even throughout this whole past year, he'll still say hey, I'm going to buy X, is that OK, I say sure I don't care, and i think he still feels a little guilty. So maybe that dynamic is playing into this a little bit--the idea of spending money secretly-- and is definitely something that I am responsible for creating.
Alison, I am such a huge proponent of self-care. I really think it helps in all areas of your life when you can check all those boxes-- enough sleep, exercise, and hydration are the most important, I think. All I ever wear now are tank tops and yoga pants and I'm eating like it is going out of style, but I am trying to keep up with working out at least a bit. I could do better here too. (Also-- maybe it is time for you to get a new tattoo???)
SamCal,
I somehow missed this!
Is he afraid to admit he made a mistake and put people he love through a world of hurt? It's not like he doesn't know this, on some level. When I have felt that way about mistakes in my past (not even marriage related necessary) - sometimes the 'for what' is to grow as a person and learn a lesson. Sometimes that really affects the lives of others, but sometimes there aren't other ways to learn the full lesson. If you guys frame it that way together, do you think he'd be receptive?
I think it is possible. We talked a little the other night about the positive things that maybe would not have happened if not for the affair. I think he would like to believe that. But more of the issue, I think, is that he hates to admit to mistakes ever anyway, and has preferred to think of this whole situation as set in momentum by me with the SSM and then almost inevitable that he "fell" into the A, he didn't really realize where he was until it was too late. (I was like, well, there had to have been a point where you could have seen the potential and stopped. She could have too. He agreed... but it is all kind of moot since they didn't, it happened, and here we are now.) Anyway, I think we can probably get there but he isn't quite to that place yet. And I don't want to lead him.
Things are better since our talk. It was my birthday yesterday and he put together a really nice day, baked and decorated a cake with the girls (he said to me in semi-shock afterward... wow, that was a lot of work. And the kitchen was still a total disaster. I just smiled and said yep! I know! and took the cocktail he made me and went to sit outside and drink it while he cleaned up and made dinner :))
Happy belated birthday may!!! Sounds like you had a great one!!!
Yes! Happy belated birthday, May!! A cocktail made by someone else that one drinks outside while dinner is being made is pretty much the best it gets in our Covid conditions!
Xx
Happy Birthday, may! What kind of cake did you have?
Happy birthday May! I'm so glad things are going well for you.
Happy Belated. I hope you had a wonderful birthday/birthday weekend
Thanks... you guys are the best
Cardinal, it was a chocolate layer cake (baked by my D8 with help from H) and liberally frosted/decorated with vanilla/confetti buttercream by my D10. I think my H had to run the dishwasher three times that day. Sage, I totally agree.. people kept texting me to ask what I did special on my birthday and besides five straight hours of Zoom work calls, I simply didn't clean or cook, plus no real child supervision since they were so involved with the cake-making and decorating. It was ah-may-zing.
I had an interesting mini-R talk with my H last night as we were laying in bed. He said he is having a really hard time understanding why he did what he did, wrapping his head around two years of lying, cheating, that he did that to me. That he has been trying to put the reasoning on a spectrum, with one end being just a despicable human being, and the other end being (and he was clear to say he didn't think this was the case, just that this end would be the most justified end of why someone would behave the way he did) like The Princess Bride type true love. if there were only one person out there that you could be happy with and if you found that person, maybe that is a justifiable reason. He doesn't know where he falls on this spectrum, and I think he's trying to wrestle with the "I'm just a bad person" narrative in his head, that there is no excuse for what he did.
He doesn't know how to figure it out right now, because I don't want to hear some parts of what he would need to say (because I've drawn a boundary around hearing about his feelings for AP), his IC is OK but kind of an echo chamber since he's the only one talking, and until we can see the MC again together he just doesn't know how to process all of this.
I said I didn't actually think the feelings for the other person played into it at all and was not a justification for any behavior. He asked me what I thought was the other end of the spectrum. I said, carefully, that I thought someone could be a good person but be sad and hurting and lonely, and that someone comes along who listens and wants your advice and wants to be with you, and that probably would feel really good, and those decisions were made from that place, not completely out of selfishness and not caring how your actions affected other people. He was silent and then said thank you for saying that, it means a lot.
He said, but I did this for two whole years. I said I imagined that he got into a situation that was hard to get out of, and the only way he could justify it was to believe that it was true love, or whatever, on his justification spectrum, and so that fed into the the whole cycle. That he kind of had to double down in order to justify his own behavior. He said, I think that is more true than you know.
He said, but you would never have done this. I said no, I didn't think so. But that who you are is made of up the choices you make, and you can change that by changing your choices as you go forward. Don't want to be a liar? Don't lie anymore. You can't change the past. The A happened. There is no changing that. But you can move forward and be the person that you want to be going forward. And that I agreed that understanding why this happened was really important going forward for me as well, and for what it's worth, I'm here to listen. (I didn't bring my boundary back up, but it is still there and I think he knows that without me needing to say it again.)
He talked a little about consequences, that there are some things that you don't just get to say are in the past, like if you had a DUI and hurt someone, you'd have to live with that forever, maybe go to jail, whatever. Anyway. We talked about all this for awhile, and a little bit about how I'm feeling. This morning, he accidentally woke me up super early with his alarm too loud... he apologized a bunch (I have a hard time falling back asleep if I wake up since all this started) and came over and gave me a long hug in bed before he left. This hasn't happened for years. Like YEARS.
So... I feel cautiously optimistic, maybe we are moving into "piecing" whatever that is. Yes, still no beating of the breast and rending of the clothes in sorrow and penitence. I'm not hearing "I'll do whatever it takes" to make it right. I don't think he'll ever do either of those two things. But-- he finally answered my outstanding questions about the A. He is being thoughtful and working on why he did this (and I'm assuming part of that will be how to forgive himself for it), not just trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug which was a fear I had for awhile. We're talking about it and not fighting. I suppose it doesn't matter what we call it. He is working through his stuff, I need to continue to focus on me, and I guess I'm just not sure how to navigate what gets worked on together out of all of this when we can't see the MC and no child care on the horizon until the fall, assuming in-person school starts back up then.
For those of you who have gone through or are currently going through this stage... any thoughts?
And Sage... still wondering if you have the time and energy for it-- what are your thoughts about setting intentions/visioning for things that aren't just for you, but require another person to be engaged?
(re-reading this it sounds like I did a lot of the talking... I didn't, really. I mostly listened.)
Man, May, you are so wise and present and lucid right now. The conversation with H must have been SO hard internally, but you did so beautifully in it all. But I have to ask some hard questions: do you feel resentful when you have to 'counsel' H through his $hitty choices? Do you feel like you have to put your own needs to the side to be able to help H process his? I say this with no judgement, I am the same type of person and could easily do exactly what you did.
However, in my own life (major projection here, so take it or leave it), the emotional enabling and 'saving' is partly what brought me to my current situation. I have a completely emotionally incompetent H who thinks it is OK to just step out of the real world to 'go work on himself' while I wait for him to do so. And he thinks this is OK (in part) because I have prioritized his needs over my own; I have enabled him emotionally so he never really has to figure it all out for himself. I have spent so much time saving him, he doesn't even know how to save himself.
This might be harsh, or even not relevant, but be careful that you don't fall into the same trap of 'wise, May; all-knowing May, 'controlling' May (ie May, who knows my feelings better than I do; even if duh, you do)'. How can you validate while allowing him to figure all of this out on his own? Can you do that? Because from an outsider's perspective, him figuring this out on his own is going to bring the most to your relationship in the end. Can you be present and open and get your questions answered without giving him the answers to his internal struggle? Because in hindsight, I would have allowed my H to struggle A LOT more than he had to. I don't think we would be in this sitch if I had.
On the other half of your update, I definitely think that you should be optimistic about the signs you are seeing in your R. All of the things you are mentioning are more than 'guilt ridden' responses, but truly empathetic and something one does for someone they care deeply about. A long hug? YES. Ownership of (at least part of) his side of the street? YES. Not sweeping it under the rug. Biggest YES. It sounds like you are really moving in the right direction, girl. I am so happy for you!
And regarding intentions that require another person... during the DB process we are taught to focus on ourselves and what we are in control of. But that's not real life; that's survival and coping. Real life doesn't happen in a vacuum. Unless you are a monk living in a cave in the Himalayas, you are going to have to react to real people, feel real emotions and participate in the give and take of relationships (whether with a spouse or a child or a parent or a friend). So it is completely OK to set intentions with another person involved in the outcome. Of course, there are intentions we set that are purely for ourselves (goals about career, personal development, etc). But a lot of my recent intentions are about my children, my future relationship and where I will be with all of them. So go for it. Dream your best R and write it out. In the present tense.
You are amazing, keep up the wise self reflection and ignore any 2x4's of mine that don't resonate.
xxxx
Hi May, first of all, thank you for posting on my thread, I read through all of yours over the past couple weeks. You are in a much better position than me, but I agree that our sitches have some similarities.
My first impression was that you’ve had lots of R talks, implemented tough love after learning about the PA, then fell into several backslides. Your H was ambivalent after disclosure and didn’t think you could ever forgive him or desire would come back. You couldn’t let him go like most LBS...all too familiar for me.
There are some quotes that I’ve copied below which resonated and that I’ll comment on.
...if I could see into his head I would leave him in a second. That he is a bad person, he's done enough damage to our R that he can't imagine me forgiving him or him forgiving himself.
I thought this was one of the main reasons my W didn’t come back and give our MR another shot. However, I no longer feel this factored into the decision much at all anymore. It’s all about the AP and how they make the unfaithful spouse feel. That grip is so powerful and addictive and forgiveness either way pales in comparison. There are also factors of loyalty to the AP and justification to themselves that these choices were made because the LBS/MR was terrible.
I feel like he's deciding between pursuing a R with the AP together with the fantasy divorce idea with me vs. choosing a boring, passionless MR with me, plus losing out on the possibility of real romance/connection with someone else.
Same! My W believes in the fantasy where we have an open MR for her to sleep with her AP and we are friends/co-parents/business partners for her to maintain home life as a family. Sorry, that’s not a lifestyle for me, they can’t have it both ways.
I like the idea of keeping lists and deciding what can be addressed together, what needs to wait (or really don't need to be answered at all), and what should go to the MC. The MC suggested I give a list of the questions I have to H and he can say which he's OK to answer now and which he wants to wait on (since H apparently knows so much better than I do right now what is and is not in my best interest to know. This is making me INSANE.) TBH I haven't even told him the main questions I want answered-- they aren't really all that big of a deal-- like how did they communicate, did they ever meet outside her city, does he have any mementos/letters/photos/gifts of/from her, etc....And I don't really want him to do anything because I told him to...but I do eventually want him to do those things because he wants to himself, or cares enough about me to do it even if he thinks it is dumb, or is finally so embarrassed and disgusted at his own behavior that he wants to do whatever he possibly can to make it right.) So we are just tabling this for now but I did journal out all the questions I want answered at some point. I just feel like the longer it takes the more damaging it is on my psyche and ability to reconnect with H. But, pushing it now won't help anything.
I have been keeping a daily journal of my sitch since about a month after BD. I’ve been meaning to peruse it at some point and decide what events are important to me. There were so many occasions where I felt gaslighted and want to know the real truth to understand if I was crazy or not with some of my assumptions. I don’t want to know the intimate details. I learned many of those from snooping that I struggle to erase from my memory. I would like a timeline and how many OM there were during her GGW phase. I see that you’ve recently had this talk. I’m glad you he answered your questions and now you can move forward without bringing them up and asking again. Put them behind you, it’s in the past now, don’t let them inhibit your growth during R.
MC said look at it this way... you want these visible signs that he's turned away from the AP and is choosing you, like deleting his Spotify playlists, or her number or whatever. But what you really want is to know he wants to do that on his own, not that he's doing it because he thinks you want him to. And at least he's being honest about where he is in this journey. He just isn't quite *there* yet. H agreed, said he really knew he could do all the things I'm asking and say all the right things that I want to hear and probably make me happy. But he wouldn't honestly be there yet and he wants to do this all authentically. He said he loves doing things with me as friends and partners but he's struggling with the romance part. OK. All to be expected. Marathon not a sprint. And I signed up for this. Still would rather skip ahead to the part where he's begging forgiveness. But I also have to be OK with the fact that that may never happen, and come to terms for myself with how I feel or don't feel and what it means for how I want to live my life.
I want my W to delete every memory of her APs...contact in phone, texts, photos, any gifts/mementos left behind. I wish she would do it on her own out of love and respect without me asking. I don’t see my W begging for forgiveness, maybe years down the line. Just being friends with your spouse [censored]! I’m with you, this is a choice I made and have to accept she’s on a different schedule. I’m happy for you that some of the romance has returned to your MR as the two of you are putting in effort.
Maybe I won't be able to forgive him. Then what? I definitely know I can't if we don't ever talk about it or deal with the A. I know that I just need to focus on myself, what I can control, and when/if he's ready to accept the enormity of what he did and talk about it, we can start working on it. We'll get there when we get there, or we won't. And if we never do, then I have more decisions to make. I know he's on a different timeline than I am. Right now, all he can do is be present, be a good dad and partner. He simply can't yet deal with the rest of it.
Be present...ain’t this the truth in my sitch. Right now all I need is my W to have 100% NC with OM and be transparent and honest if any attempts at contact are made. Steve85 gave good advice on whether you get there or not. Set a date for yourself for the romantic relationship that you want to return. If that goal isn’t met, then make the decision on what you want to do, extend the date, ask your H for something different, end the MR, etc. This way it feels like you’re working towards something.
But I can't say we are in M2.0 until he can look me in the eyes and tell me he loves me, he wants to be with me-- not me the mom of his kids or me his best friend, but me as his wife and partner in life and all that entails. That he's willing to do whatever it takes and tell me whatever I need to know to move forward, and to face that part of himself that lied and cheated and was the exact kind of person he always despised. TBH, I think he's ready to put the AP in the past and focus on us. He's been doing that for awhile now. I just don't think he's ready to face himself.
I agree. I don’t think you can say you’re piecing until there is a firm commitment that leaves you convinced that your H wants MR 2.0 too and is willing to do the hard work and whatever it takes to make that a reality. I think your H can get there and face the enormity of his choices in time and with appropriate AP withdrawal.
I just want to warn you, that he is never going to say he's sorry exactly the way you want him to. He's never going to say I love you exactly the way you want him to. He never going to face his bs on your timeline or process it in the way you'd really like him to. It's all going to be on his time table and in his way at first. It’s a long road before he'll be ready to show and do things the way you'd like them to be, and then again he may never. This is a meet people where there at thing. He owes you a lot of explaining, and reassurances, and apologies, but there's a good chance all of that is going to come in his way and not yours. Are you going to be able to accept that? And the bigger question I have for you is, are you going to be able to set your pain, fear, anger, frustration etc. over all he's put you through aside long enough to see when he's giving you those things on his terms?
Great viewpoint from Wayfarer. Set your expectations aside. You might always feel there are unresolved issues surrounding the A and how he attempted to rectify those with you. Are you going to be able to accept that and leave it in the past? I think you’ve had your major questions answered by him already. I hope they were satisfactory for you. Take solace in the fact that he’s there, AP is gone, and the two of you are in MC taking steps towards R. You are on a good path May and building towards something many on this board don’t have the opportunity to experience. I think you’re doing tremendously well and will have MR 2.0 that meets both of your needs.
I enjoy reading your posts. You are several months ahead of me and it provides a glimpse of what could occur and what I might encounter in my sitch if my W ever gets there. You’re H is waking up and is asking himself the tough questions to move forward. His timeline is coming along nicely from what I read. Best wishes to both of you.
Happy belated birthday May
Hope you're keeping well in this crazy time.
Yes - he is working through 'his stuff'. Our sitch's have taken different trajectories and I am happy that your H is at least
attempting to walk the same path as you. I think we've said it before, but your H is very much like my H. I know that it would have taken a h*ll of a lot of humbling for him to walk back through that door and even then there would be no fireworks, no romantic gestures, no untangling of what had happened or acknowledgement of the pain caused.
Time and patience I guess. If anyone has the patience and emotional resilience to get through this (even without the proclamations of love), I think that person is you. He might never open up fully but slowly the connection will start to feel less forced. Remember, there is a lot of shame and guilt in there that he isn't sharing with you because he hasn't dealt with it yet.
FS
But I have to ask some hard questions: do you feel resentful when you have to 'counsel' H through his $hitty choices? Do you feel like you have to put your own needs to the side to be able to help H process his? I say this with no judgement, I am the same type of person and could easily do exactly what you did.
Yes, yes and yes. I've felt this way all along... but I know part of it, especially at first, was me being controlling and also imagining that this was all his fault and if only he was fixed things would be better again. I was reading about Alison regretting so much focus on reading self-help books about his issues and that totally resonated with me. I just looked in the office the other day and there is this shelf of books that I bought and read and gave to H to read, about MLC etc and I totally cringed.
Now, I really think I need to step back, stop projecting my own timeline and thoughts and whatever onto him and just let him do his thing. The other area where I got pretty good back in the crisis space and am not practicing well any more is validating... but also I think this is because I feel this need to be heard myself too, and was tired of hearing my H's version over and over about what happened. He had this very pat story down he had told himself throughout all of this-- SSM, he was broken, met AP and it was all kind of inevitable and traced back to my fault. Plus he opened up this secondary tale about how I controlled all his adult decisions, which is complete BS. Now that he is open to actually questioning/addressing some of this narrative, I just want to poke holes in it all day long. But I think I need to back off and listen more. I'm not sure how to totally address my own feelings and need to be heard without taking over the emotional work or being too controlling.
However, in my own life (major projection here, so take it or leave it), the emotional enabling and 'saving' is partly what brought me to my current situation. I have a completely emotionally incompetent H who thinks it is OK to just step out of the real world to 'go work on himself' while I wait for him to do so. And he thinks this is OK (in part) because I have prioritized his needs over my own; I have enabled him emotionally so he never really has to figure it all out for himself. I have spent so much time saving him, he doesn't even know how to save himself.
This isn't our dynamic so much. H is actually pretty good at recognizing his own emotions and has been much better over the past year plus at addressing them... one thing that is maybe a little backward in our sitch is that he has been in IC now for 1.5 years and I do think it is really helping him. He's also always been really good at dealing with the big difficult things that crop up in life, less good at the little annoyances, but I've always respected his ability to deal with real problems and have actually learned a lot from him in this arena over the years. But the big difference now-- and he said this himself-- is that the problem is one of his own making, not something that just happened. I can see how that makes it all the more difficult to face. It doesn't change, though, his need to work through it on his own, and my need for that to happen authentically as well.
This might be harsh, or even not relevant, but be careful that you don't fall into the same trap of 'wise, May; all-knowing May, 'controlling' May (ie May, who knows my feelings better than I do; even if duh, you do)'. How can you validate while allowing him to figure all of this out on his own? Can you do that? Because from an outsider's perspective, him figuring this out on his own is going to bring the most to your relationship in the end. Can you be present and open and get your questions answered without giving him the answers to his internal struggle?
This is all very relevant to me and where I am right now, and I really do need to work on this. It also dovetails with continuing to release expectations around timelines and what "should" happen, in what order... this is a continual challenge for me.
And regarding intentions that require another person... during the DB process we are taught to focus on ourselves and what we are in control of. But that's not real life; that's survival and coping. Real life doesn't happen in a vacuum. Unless you are a monk living in a cave in the Himalayas, you are going to have to react to real people, feel real emotions and participate in the give and take of relationships (whether with a spouse or a child or a parent or a friend). So it is completely OK to set intentions with another person involved in the outcome.
Good point. I think this is a good and meaningful exercise I should work through. I did this somewhat during crisis mode, and am now realizing that I've let much of my personal intentions slip away (regular yoga/exercise/meditation, though I still haven't really cracked the nut on actual meditation), gained half the weight I lost back-- not that where I was was sustainable, really, but it did feel good and I want to reverse the trend, etc. For my R, I got really good at validating and listening and connecting and trying to create small positive interactions. I feel I've let a lot of that slide and need to pick that practice back up. As I've been thinking about this more recently, my H is very responsive to these small positives and mirrors it all back-- it was one of the big aha! moments I had with all of this process, realizing that an R can be improved starting with just me.
Thanks so much, Sage. I really appreciate your support and thoughts. How are YOU doing?
Curtis, thanks for commenting-- it was interesting to get the perspective of someone who read the thread all through recently and not in real time. After reading your comments, I went back and re-read some sections and was thrown by things that I'm already forgetting or glossing over. I like the idea of setting a date for some movement in our R and then stopping worrying about it until then... I kind of had, like August, after this big trip we were supposed to take (now on hold til next summer) which would also be six months post ending his A. So maybe I just need to relax again, lose my expectations, and re-check in in August to see where we are. I saw that Steve85 did something similar in his own situation as well.
I hope you're hanging in there. I think it was on your page many months ago I remember reading how you felt about your kids and how you didn't understand how your W could walk away from this, and it really resonated with me. I'm rooting for you guys.
FlySolo, I wrote a little on your thread and will write more here because I totally agree about our H's similarities... but need to run for now. Thinking of you.
So.... HELP.
Tonight, H came up to me with the Gottman book after the kids went to bed and told me he'd read the first section. He said he realized there were a number of things going on in our R from before that were bad signs, and that also he realized that he was more responsible for some of it, including the SSM, than he had said before. I was elated that he was reading the book and we talked a little bit about some of the things in it
Then he said, there is something I have to tell you. His AP reached out (via Whatsapp) to tell him she was moving on permanently, something along the lines of speak now or forever hold your peace. He said he sat on it for a couple of days and then responded to say OK, he understood. Then that seems to have started a texting conversation, him checking in with her about the protests, her saying she had had a lot of trauma recently, that led to a phone call in which she told him all this stuff that has been going on with her (pretty minor "trauma," feels like a ploy to get him to call) including the fact that she'd slept with someone. H was totally gut punched on this. We went camping Tuesday through yesterday, he didn't talk to her at all when we were gone, but he called her this morning and they spoke again. I guess she told him not to call her again, she was going to block his number, he asked her not to and then he told me all of this tonight.
He is completely back to where he was back in January. He is worried he is losing his chance at happiness. His emotional connection to her is as strong as ever (he says it never really went away, though he didn't think about her as much, but when he did it was strong).
When he told me this, I said OK, when are you moving out and took off my rings (his was already off from surfing this morning). He said whoa whoa, this is not what I'm saying right now, we need to talk this through together. This is exactly what I was afraid of when I told you but I am telling you, I'm not keeping it a secret, blah blah blah.
He is spinning. He is totally freaked out that he is going to lose her, he said he never really let go of the idea that maybe they would work out in the end. He is worried that this is his one chance at being happy and he's been sad. Etc etc. That he had been trying but he doesn't know if he can anymore. He finally understands what betrayal feels like because of how he feels thinking about her being with someone else.
I felt like I was right back to January. Tonight had marked 5 months since he broke it off with her. Part of me is incredibly angry that he let this happen. If he had blocked her like I asked him to in the first place, he'd still be NC.... and I know that he WAS letting her go, even if he's saying how he never stopped. He said talking to her again was like a drug for him. He didn't know if he could live without her. The words he was saying was all the same things he was saying back then, totally ambivalent again, talking about the fantasy D sitch, blah blah blah. And of course I had just recently gotten my hopes up that things were moving forward between us.
He said maybe he needs to just see if this would work out with her and asked me if he did and in six months it didn't work out with her, would there be any possibility of me still being willing to work on our M (acknowledging that was a crazy thing to say and also that he knew I couldn't predict a hypothetical like that). I said of course I don't know 100%, since I also always thought that I'd be done forever if I ever found out you had cheated on me, and I didn't.... but that this entire time, him actually leaving was the bright line for me. So no, I wouldn't be there. If he walked, that was it.
I said I can't live through this again. That I considered continuing having any contact at all with her to be a continuation of the affair. As far as I was concerned, he was in an active affair again and I wasn't going to live like that. He protested that a little, that they were just talking, but didn't argue too much since he was also telling me how strong his feelings were for her.
He said what if he slept in the office for awhile... I said not if you're in contact with her. He asked about the basement, I said same thing. Then we ended up kind of arguing about whether or not I would actually be a cold cut-off-all-unnecessary-contact exW, he thinks I wouldn't really do that, I said OK, that is fine if he thinks that. (I was really trying to stay away from things he could perceive to be threats since that has come up a lot in previous R talks from back when). He also said what about a trial separation where he wouldn't be in contact with her but lived in the basement. I said why? he said so I can show you how great D might be. (The whole D fantasy was dusted right off and right back to where it was last year.)
Anyway, complete re-run of conversations we had in January. I asked what was different in his three reasons for ending the A from before. he said nothing... well, maybe she would be OK not having any children, because she wanted to be with him so badly she would be willing to give that up (I asked if they talked about this recently and he said no, it was from back before he ended it). Also, that he had been trying with me for the past five months and he still was in love with her. He also said the last couple of weeks he's felt uncomfortable about sex with me. I said I didn't consider what we had been doing for the last five months really trying... we barely talked about our R or the A until just a couple of weeks ago, and we haven't been seeing the MC. Those are two big, important parts of actually working on our R and seeing if it could work. We had major issues that needed to be dealt with and being together but not dealing with them was not actually "trying" in my book. But whatever.
He brought up several different times just how badly he'd screwed up, that he had hurt and betrayed me, that he didn't see how that was fixable, that I could forgive him or he could forgive himself. Before he went to sleep (in our bed... I'm sitting up here at 3 am) he asked if we could continue the conversation tomorrow. he talked a lot again about me being his best friend, him needing to talk to his best friend about this. He feels I've dismissed his feelings for AP and been like, just don't talk to her for awhile and you'll get over her, and that he doesn't know that he ever will/can. He asked me how this happened, how he could have started a two (now a two and a half) year affair. All the same things he was talking about last week... and now colored by the fact that they were back in contact at this point and he is again in total limerence, exacerbated by the fact that she slept with someone else and also that he might lose her forever.
Sooooo.... I had in the back of my head the whole time this was happening all the posters here saying you have to completely let them go and fail for them to come back. He did ask me what I wanted, did I think M2.0 was really possible, I said yes (maybe not DBing but oh well)-- that it took time to get over someone, he clearly wasn't over her, that I did believe if we both wanted to build M2.0 and believed we could, we would be successful. But if he was always going to have her in the back of his mind as the 'what if/maybe in the future' then it would never work between us... but I did wholly believe that if he could let her go, that we had all the ingredients to have something great. But that was a decision he was going to need to make for himself. it wasn't something I could do for him. And if his choice was to go, he should go. But I wasn't going to give him my blessing. ( know, not DBing. I should have been packing his bags. But he doesn't actually want to move out. Even his no-longer-trying-with-me version is him just being in the basement. Which I don't want-- if he is going to leave, I want him OUT. Which then gets into the whole I can't actually kick him out part because he's a co-owner of the house... and in my state the judges normally won't force someone out unless there is a threat of violence. Apparently it is pretty common here because housing is so expensive for D-ing couples to live together until the very end.)
So a little unhelpful mind-reading right now... I feel like best case scenario, her outreach knocked him off balance, got him thinking about her again, combined with the recent wrestling with the gravity of the betrayal etc., fear it could never work out with me, fear of losing her for good pushed him right back to where he was six months ago. This is a hiccup, things don't progress in a straight line, etc. Like, why did he start reading the Gottman book in the midst of all of this? And, he told me about it (and I believe it, though I'm pretty pissed he let it go for a week without telling me... he says he feels like it is in real time and he didn't want to tell me camping and ruin the trip. The conversation started back up Thursday, Friday was my birthday, we went camping Tuesday and got back yesterday. He was kind of an a-hole camping). But I do know he could have not said anything and I wouldn't have known the difference, because I trusted him that it was over, especially with the way he had been talking lately.
Worst case scenario, this will be my life forever if we stay together, even if he wants to try again, never really truly moving past this. Second worse case scenario, this is it, he's gone. I am very sad etc etc (I am no longer detached, though I'm much better right now than I was earlier on, that is for sure) but I know I'll move on eventually and be fine.
FlySolo, if you're reading this... one thing I wanted to say to you is that I have always felt like if my H leaves, that is it. It would be too big of decision to ever admit it was wrong. That he'd just double down and smoosh away any qualms because he wouldn't be able to deal with making this big of an error. (Or, maybe he hits total rock bottom, in which case I can't imagine wanting him back anyway.) I see so much of my H in how your H behaves. So I have always erred in my sitch because of this towards not pushing that final step out the door. Also, I know this is different for many of you, but the final out-the-door move has always just been my deal-breaker. I could deal with the rest but having to tell the children we were separating is something I could never forgive him for.
From reading about Wooba and Pommy and Wayfinder and Scout and so many others on here, I know that my children will be fine. I just so, so much don't want it for them. I know that many people look back and are glad that they S because it wasn't healthy for the children to be in so much conflict, or seeing their mom in such a bad place... but the honest truth is it has never been like that with us. Our kids know nothing and are completely, blissfully happy. I'm one hundred percent confident of that. But reading your stories has truly made some of the fear around this part go away.
Thoughts on what I should do? Avoid R talks for a bit? Tell him he has to stop all contact with her or GTFO? Let him move to the basement? Are we basically rewound to January-- possibly a bit better because if he can take a step back from the overwhelming emotions he's feeling right now, he could see that things WERE getting better between us and also none of his decision-making factors have changed? Or possibly worse because he can tell himself he tried for five months and his 'emotional connection' to her was just too strong? Or who cares anyway if it is slightly better or slightly worse, it all is awful, I don't deserve it, and I need to buck up and move on even though it will devastate my kids?
I know one thing I will definitely do.... I am getting that Botox now for sure!
May - I am so sorry this is happening again.
I'll address the paragraph directed at me. Yes, our H's are very alike. Both walled up overthinking bags of shame and guilt. And so many many insecurities. But they are also different. Yours needs your forgiveness. Mine, well mine keeps the need for forgiveness somewhere deep down in his psyche where the light don't shine. Mine protects his ego by making me the villain. Yours knows his the villain and wants you to forgive him for it. Either way, their ego's remain protected, and ours, well ours don't even get a look in.
But I think your question was if you force an ultimatum and he moves out do I think he will come back?. Yes, I think he will. Because he knows if he only says sorry enough and uses the right words, then you will take him back. Coming back for my H would be humbling, coming back for your H (he thinks) will only require tears and words. I'm not saying those tears won't be genuine, they will be, and the words will be deeply felt. I will caveat that statement. Him coming back will require the OW cutting him off.
May, he will do what he will do irrespective of what action you take. Addictions are like that. The question you have to ask yourself isn't should I kick him out or not but what am I standing for ?
Have you ever honestly looked at your M, your H or have you been too busy trying to save your M, fix your H?
Hey may -
I know I don't comment much but I have been following along.
Wow. That certainly is a lot to have to go through. I'm so sorry you're going through any of this in the first place.
Their timeline is really long. I think none of us realize just how long, just how chaotic and just how confusing things are until we get the occasional glimpse of it, and then that sends us LBSes spiralling - because we WANT to see progress, we want to see some kind of great leap forward. That's the nature of the LBS who has committed to standing. But I think we often forget just how bizarre the thought patterns are.
I can't help you with what to do, but I know that in my sit when I've noticed my WAW veer into chaotic territory (and I think you H is there right now), I back away. Very far away. I set my boundaries firmly and stick to them.
I would pick only the strongest boundaries to talk about though. R talks when he is in an open affair seem like they will only push him toward the AP - he's and AP's R has only now suddenly become a chaotic relationship. He needs to feel the consequences of his actions - probably best to get out of his way and let him take the full brunt of the hit.
If it were me I wouldn't talk about the AP and their R. If you don't want to talk about the A - you do not have to. I would kindly find a way (your way) to say something like: I understand you're in pain but I do not want to talk about the AP.
You are the stable unwavering one with rock solid morals. You know what's right and wrong. He is flailing about like a recently landed fish. You are the lighthouse made of granite in this monster hurricane.
May this is so tough. Remember - there are no time limits on this - so take as long as you need to think about things. Make sure your decisions aren't emotional ones - I always try to separate my immediate reactions from the event to try to get some perspective on it. You have the control here - you decide if you've had enough.
Take care of yourself - stay strong
May - I am so sorry this has happened. In your earlier post, when you said your H had been thinking about why he'd done what he'd done, I thought that was such a good sign - that he was looking inwards instead of taking the easy answer and blaming you. This must be such a blow.
I don't know what to advise, other than I don't think you can repair your marriage while there's another person in it, and I don't think your H is really ready to remove the OW from his life. Whether you can wait, or are willing to wait, is perhaps something that isn't clear to you right now.
I was so angry when he asked if you'd wait six months while he went and tried to have a relationship with her. I know he admitted it was a crazy thing to ask, but even the fact that he'd disrespect you like that is astonishing to me.
Take care.
may ~ I haven't checked in for awhile. So sorry to hear about this update.
Anyway, complete re-run of conversations we had in January. I asked what was different in his three reasons for ending the A from before. he said nothing... well, maybe she would be OK not having any children, because she wanted to be with him so badly she would be willing to give that up (I asked if they talked about this recently and he said no, it was from back before he ended it). Also, that he had been trying with me for the past five months and he still was in love with her. He also said the last couple of weeks he's felt uncomfortable about sex with me. I said I didn't consider what we had been doing for the last five months really trying... we barely talked about our R or the A until just a couple of weeks ago, and we haven't been seeing the MC. Those are two big, important parts of actually working on our R and seeing if it could work. We had major issues that needed to be dealt with and being together but not dealing with them was not actually "trying" in my book. But whatever.
He brought up several different times just how badly he'd screwed up, that he had hurt and betrayed me, that he didn't see how that was fixable, that I could forgive him or he could forgive himself. Before he went to sleep (in our bed... I'm sitting up here at 3 am) he asked if we could continue the conversation tomorrow. he talked a lot again about me being his best friend, him needing to talk to his best friend about this. He feels I've dismissed his feelings for AP and been like, just don't talk to her for awhile and you'll get over her, and that he doesn't know that he ever will/can. He asked me how this happened, how he could have started a two (now a two and a half) year affair. All the same things he was talking about last week... and now colored by the fact that they were back in contact at this point and he is again in total limerence, exacerbated by the fact that she slept with someone else and also that he might lose her forever.
It sounds like he's spinning (limerence?) from this renewed contact and you are going to hear him regurgitate the same garbage from 5 months ago. The more you can be completely detached *lovingly* (important) the better. "I'm sure these are hard feelings for you to sort out" followed by a non-passive-aggressive smile or something like that (IDK). Maybe he'll cycle out of it after awhile (?)
I vote that you cut off R talks when he brings this up. He'll do his whole schtick about how you need to truly understand his feelings for her blah blah blah. Maybe a simple: "I understand you have some feelings to sort out on your own".
Of course that is fuel for him to suggest you are cold, distant, etc. Ignore it. You can't control his perceptions. You are his W, not his sounding board to resolve his feelings about his AP. You already tried that once.
I think that's very good advice, May. I think you already had a boundary that you weren't going to hear about his feelings for the AP. He's told you about his actions - what you make of them are up to you, but I'd consider those acts of infidelity in this situation. You have the information you need, and as much time as you want to digest and act on it. I think what is most important now is that you protect yourself, and in this situation it means you don't listen to any more of his limerent whining about his mistress.
I am so sorry you are back to this place again, May.
However, there are a few things that stand out to me, some of which have been mentioned by previous posters. Firstly, although it feels like you are back in the same place you were in January, I am not sure that your H is in the same place as he was then. OW has done you a service by forcing his hand to a certain degree. Although you can't control her, or him, it is clear that she is putting him in a place of an ultimatum. And you have been clear about your boundaries surrounding him leaving the house. So it's on him and you can't be blamed for the fallout of his decision, either way.
What other boundaries could you put up and still maintain the hard work you have put into the R for the past five months? What do you need to survive this right now? I agree with everyone else that you absolutely should not be his BFF or sounding board for the purpose of sorting through his emotional quagmire. And asking you for 6 months is absolutely ridiculous, but illuminates the fact that he is indeed in a between a rock and a hard spot and only he can save himself (though he wants you to).
Step out of his way as much as you possibly can. This is on him, it is not your fault and you can't save him.
(((((May)))))
Oh man, this hurt to read. And yet, it's not unexpected.
May, what do you think about taking yourself out of the equation for a bit? Not sure what the covid restrictions are like there, but can you go stay with family or friends or even a hotel for a week or two? Take the kids, don't take the kids -- whatever works for you.
I cannot believe the sheer disrespect of him asking you to give him a six-month hall pass. And then to expect you to be waiting, pining for him in case it doesn't work out?! And guilting you for dismissing his feelings about AP?!? WTActualF. You're his WIFE. What does he think marriage vows ARE? It makes my skin crawl. It's completely craven.
I do err on the side of scorched earth in these situations, as you know, so feel free to disregard anything I say.
I know it's complicated, it's hard, kids are involved, sunk costs, you love him -- girl, ask yourself honestly. Is this love, to you? Is this acceptable, to you? Love is commitment, it's showing up. That's all it is. It's not happiness, it's not lust, it's not anything else. Feelings fade. Love is a choice. He's choosing to love someone else.
We love you and we're here for you.
Thanks, you guys.
IW, thanks for checking in... I always really appreciate your comments on other's posts. I think the time and waiting not to make a decision out of emotion is important. I don't know that I can keep standing at the moment, though. I'm feeling like the situation is hopeless and time to get out.
U, good to hear from you too...totally spinning limerence. It is CRAZY to watch now that he's been more sane for awhile how desperate and emotional he is right now. So weird that just two weeks ago we had our long transparency talk and he seemed so much different in how he talked about her and she dropped her sleeping with someone bomb. (But it isn't too late for him! She still loves him so much!) The passion and urgency were gone, he talked about his feelings in the past tense, he talked about how he didn't think it would work out between them anyway. Now all back with a vengeance. And saying he only said those things because he was trying to convince himself of it.
It is pathetic, really. I really don't want to hear about it. I also really don't want to live in the same house with him still actively talking to her. I feel like if I can get to a place of acceptance plus not wanting him to move out, I could try the no R talks and avoiding listening to the verbal barrage of his lost true love, but I am not sure I am ready for more of the same. I kind of want to force the issue and have him decide to go.
Alison, Scout... I know. The six month thing was really gross. And he asked it AGAIN this morning! This way in a why don't we try a trial separation, that he thought space would help. he could live in the office or the basement. I said I didn't see the need if we were going to work on our M, and if he wanted space to carry on his affair he was free to go and I wouldn't wait. He argued with me on this a little, wouldn't it be better for me to have him go and test out this R and if he comes back he is choosing ME, not defaulting to me? I said it was all fine. Go. But I wasn't going to wait around.
Will write more later. Not sure how to handle him maybe moving to the basement.
He is worried he is losing his chance at happiness. His emotional connection to her is as strong as ever (he says it never really went away, though he didn't think about her as much, but when he did it was strong).
He is spinning. He is totally freaked out that he is going to lose her, he said he never really let go of the idea that maybe they would work out in the end. He is worried that this is his one chance at being happy and he's been sad. Etc etc. That he had been trying but he doesn't know if he can anymore. He finally understands what betrayal feels like because of how he feels thinking about her being with someone else.
May, first of all to echo others, I’m sorry to read this update. They’re “trying” leaves a lot to be desired. My W is right where your H is at. You’ll be able to read about it in my next update.
I know how disappointed you must feel and you are questioning where to go from here. Take a deep breath and think through different scenarios. What can you live with? Which path is best for you?
Personally, I wouldn’t give him 6 months to find out if she’s the one he wants; however, my sitch is different because I’ve already lived through separation and my W being with 3 APs. I won’t stand for it anymore. If she walks out that door, she shouldn’t bother coming back. My life will move forward without her.
Your H’s clock has just reset to zero. That really [censored] after 5 months! A positive sign is that he came to you with the information and you didn’t have to discover his lies. A negative sign is that he still thinks he can have the fantasy of his AP and family life with you. That one chance at happiness is a devil for the WS to overcome, it keeps the addiction alive and well even during NC.
You remind a lot of Raine on this forum. Her H went through MLC for years. She suffered many setbacks as her H kept going back to the APs. Her patience was incredible, much like yours. I recommend that you read her sitch as it may give you some insight as to what to expect if you choose to continue with your H and ways to handle it. It will take a few days to get through it and give you some perspective before you decide what’s best for you.
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=52728&Number=2306754#Post2306754Stay strong May, I’m sure you’ll make a wise decision.
OK, he just came home from the grocery store. Talked to her on the phone. She is willing to give up having children for the opportunity to be with him. (one of his three original reasons for ending the A-- the other two were doing what is best for the children (which we can still do S/Ded) and dealing with his mental health and anxiety, which couldn't go on at the time and he felt would just get worse before it gets better. Of course the other two reasons are still there but he's rationalizing them away.
He said he made no promises but it is clear he wants to go. He still wants my blessing. I said he can go but I won't be waiting for him... he said but you might still be there, right? I said I thought him leaving to be with AP was unforgivable and I would not want to be friends with him. He said he thinks I'm bluffing but is scared to call me on it.
I said, GO. He said he isn't going anywhere. He'll sleep in the office. He won't leave the house. He will consider moving to the basement but will need full access to upstairs, kitchen, etc. He said I can go if I don't want to live here. We went through a gross cycle of me pushing each other around with the assets and ended up back in the same place. He wants to have dinner together every night.
I really don't know what to do. If he is in a R with AP I honestly want him OUT OF THE HOUSE. He has nowhere to go. no good friends who would take his side on this. I want space and time and not have all his crap in my house. I can possibly see setting him up in the basement but it isn't very big, I don't see how we can get all his stuff down there and there isn't a full kitchen. He wants over the summer to wake up early to work, girls have distance learning from 8:30 - 11:30, he'd take them for the afternoons (hiking or whatever, but I imagine many days hanging out at the house during this COVID time). Can this possibly work? Can I really go completely silent with him still living here? I just don't understand how he can possibly think it is OK to still live here while having an affair!! (I guess b/c he already did it for two years!)
I don't think I can go through the same limbo as January. (Also I want to clarify something-- it is just now four months since he broke it off with AP, not five.) I can't wait around here and let him live under this roof and carry on a long distance affair with this person. But I don't know that I have a choice-- I looked into the legalities of this before and it just isn't possible.
Scout, there is a friend I could possibly go stay with and take the kids with me for a short time. I really don't want to leave this house though. I feel like it is just giving in. Maybe I need to look at why I feel that way. I feel like if he wants out of this M he should be the one to do the heavy lifting, not me.
Sage, she has been giving him ultimatums for the past year and a half. They broke up like 7 times because she "couldn't do this anymore" and then a few weeks or a month later they were back in touch. Yes, he's definitely freaked out that he thinks he might lose her forever... I don't think he ever really let her go in his heart or head during this whole time.
We are different people with different situations, but living with someone who doesn’t want you is awkward and hard. I know that there are incredible souls (here’s looking at you, WF) who can do it, but I just couldn’t. Maybe you can take WF’s path and maybe you can take mine (get out if you are not willing to work in the M and be with just me). My H left voluntarily, although he’ll say I pushed him out by making him make a decision.
I know this isn’t DBing, and I too have been scared of ultimatums, but one way to get him out of the house is to instigate a D if he won’t leave. It sounds like that still may mean he is in the house for a while, but at least you will have an end date that you can rely on. And he will know that you are for real that you won’t wait for him. LH said on my thread that he would have helped his X pack her bags. And moved on with his great future. That struck me. As well as the understanding that living in limbo is more scary than D for me right now. But I had time living in limbo (separated) so I feel like I knew all my options at the point I gave H my mini ultimatum.
But as others have said, you do have time. You have had a rough 24 hours and you probably need sleep to support your sanity right now. You don’t have to make any decision right now, or tomorrow or even this week.
Keep posting, we are here for you, May. You are loved and worthy of so much more than you are getting at the moment.
Hi Sage,
Thank you for the reply... I feel awful. I have been running on 1 hour of sleep and no food all day also, which I know isn't healthy. The poor children have been watching TV all day long while we talk and take breaks.
I did say I would file for D and borrow money from my parents to buy him out of the house, but it just devolved into a not-great conversation of arguing over how much the house is worth. And it may be pretty difficult in truth because our house is worth a lot of $. As of now he is going to start sleeping in the office, tell the kids because he has to wake up so early for work and doesn't want to wake me up.
All fall, I DB-ed (or tried with a number of slip-ups) after he told me in August he had an "emotional connection" with a woman, totally downplayed the time frame and said they were no longer in contact. Trickle truth all fall until the end of December when he told me the full scope. By December, I knew they were back in contact. I spent all of December getting myself prepared to tell him he needed to stop or leave, and the R talk that I initiated is when I got the full scoop on the A. We went through this whole same thing then and spent 6 weeks from Jan to mid-Feb in total limbo, going to a DC, him still in regular contact with her and completely paralyzed about making a decision. He had a trip to visit her city in mid-Feb and by the end of Jan had decided to break it off with her, which he did then.
So all to say... I have been here before. I feel like EXACTLY in the same place. (Yes, probably different for him than for me-- he now can say he "tried" for 4 months and wasn't able to get her out of his mind.) Also, news flash, they DID STAY IN CONTACT!! Nothing major-- they each called each other on their birthdays, four or five texts. He said he really needed to check up on her to see how she was doing and didn't consider it "contact" because it didn't mean anything. (OMG.) Also he argued that his April conversation with her was short and actually helped him to detach so it was good that he had that conversation... it was just this past weekend when they spoke that they both realized how much they still love each other. But. He never really did complete NC. I'm just so... disappointed more than anything else. I believed him that he was really trying. And maybe in his limited way he was. But when he never let her go in his head and heart, he never got to the place where he could look me in the eyes and say he believed we could make M2.0 work and was ready to try. That is something I really can't forgive him for. He says the children are his most important priority, except that he can't give up his drug/love.
Can I live through more limbo? His AP lives 5000 miles away. I don't even see how letting him go to her really does anything-- he won't really have the opportunity to experience a real R with her in that time frame and he said himself he doesn't think they would see each other at all. I feel like he's thinking of this more as a preparatory time to get me used to the idea of being separated from him so when/if she finally moves out here I'll be all ready to welcome her into our happy little family.
Do I want this person any more as my H? I think that is the bigger question right now. Scout, Alison, you're posing very good questions. I need to sit with this and go back through all my S/D scenarios. I'm POed because we have spent all spring on plans that are now out the window, including me going out on my own as a consultant and some major month-long family trips (which of course he thinks we are still going on together.)
Wow - May - what the what?! Hugs to you - I am so sorry to read this.
His requests of you are so beyond reality - lord. And this whole thing with AP seems so dramatic. Did he think she was just never going to sleep with anyone else? Why did he presumably not set a boundary with her so she felt OK about reaching out to him? I have so many non-sensical questions that do not matter. If he does go to her and you wait 6 months (insane), and then he decides to NOT come back, what is the dang point. This is so childish, unrealistic, ridiculous and illogical. (I know you know this). From what you've said about him, he doesn't come off as that type of person outside of this issue.
I hear what you're saying re: he should go since he is carrying on the A, as opposed to you going. As others have said, you do have time. I wonder if it'd be good for you to take a night or 2 for yourself away from the house to really think about what you want and how to get that. What is his reasoning behind not wanting to leave the house himself?
You have way too much self respect for yourself to be putting up with this BS all over again. Dude, treat yourself to that Botox (and then some). I echo the advice you've already gotten in the past few replies - all very good/solid. <3
Absolutely he should be the one to go. I think you're at the point now, though, where staying or going isn't about principles or winning. It's taking back the respect and dignity and CHOICE that he has stolen from you. Is your emotional welfare less important that the principle of who should leave? I imagine you're feeling a lot of disgust and anxiety right now - you might find the book 'Cheating in a Nutshell' illuminating.
You don't have to do anything as a team if you aren't a team any more. I did struggle with this at first when I started my divorce process. Eventually, it did become a symbolic point of pride for me to do it. I saw it as extricating myself from an unacceptable situation, regardless of the fact that my X created it. It was empowering. The marriage is a business deal gone wrong, and if you are ready to extricate yourself, treat it as such.
You don't need to argue how much the house is worth. You pay for a private valuation or you ask your broker to revalue as part of a potential mortgage refinance to buy him out. This doesn't necessarily mean you are moving forward with S/D. Your H doesn't need to agree to it either. You are free to gather your own information. He's arguing because he feels he's losing control. You are so strong, May, and you have options. You can do this!
May, the thread that curtis linked was interesting. I skipped to the end of her sitch and she wrote the following about her H's refusal to move out. Maybe it will help.
I've told him he is using me and I'm not okay with that. Because I'm working, he is taking advantage of me. Because I'm working we can pay for his rent plus the house and everything else. I am not working to support this situation, where he does whatever he wants, keeps the facade that he is providing all this for his family, and then in this room situation where he can't be responsible to take the kids. I feel like the cost difference between a room and a 2 bedroom apt is not that big of a deal and even if it was, it's just the way it is. This is how it is when people get divorced. You have responsibility for the kids. You don't go live like a college student. I've told him it is not okay and it's not okay for the kids to see this and think it's okay. I told him I will not pay for another month of this and he has to get his own place. I've put down on our synced calendar that he has the kids overnight on his night starting in June. I don't know what else I can do. Start staying in a hotel room on the nights he is supposed to have the kids? That's about all I can think of. He won't go get a place, then I'll start blowing even more money than the cost of him staying in apartment.
Hi May,
I've been following your last three posts--I'm sorry.
I was so, so hopeful, and many times I've found strength in thinking, "What would May do?" I agree the next step is to make him face the music--e.g., cancel those trips, file for S or D a.s.a.p., force a buyout or sale of the home, ask him to tell the kids about the D, and depending on your lawyer's guidance perhaps move out and make him pay support. That is a kindness, so he sees what he's losing, before you shut the door on reconciliation. I would not have drawn-out discussions. As Scout says, there are typically legal calculations for the home value, support, and alimony. I hope you can sleep tonight. It [censored] he's making these choices alone for your children's lives, but often "split custody" means instead of two busy parents, kids get a parent 90-100% there wherever they are.
Wow, I am late to this, and it freaking s*cks, May. I didn’t want to read what I was reading. I am so, so sorry you are going through this. Everyone has already given good advice, but I just... am mad at your H, because he’s still in his fantasy and apparently was never able to really let it go. And the fact that AP says she’s giving up kids for him feels totally unrealistic as well. Like that is totally going to implode at some point, and your H is still so far in his fantasy he’s unable to see it, and I can see what he’s potentially losing but he can’t. I almost, but not really, feel sorry for him. Because it’s so obvious he’s considering giving up something real and someone amazing for something temporary.
What is it with these Hs who refuse to leave? I think it’s more of the fantasy thinking. Ugh. To me, staying is the one choice I should have in all this—the one thing H should grant me. It’s like your H is so desperate to have his fantasy of you waiting, and if he leaves, maybe it feels like that’s slipping away.
I would just echo that you can take all the time you need to pause and listen to yourself. You must feel like you’re in flight or flight mode again, and the no sleep thing is killer. Take care of yourself. I am so grateful for every time you’ve been there for me. We are all here for you, may. Sending so many hugs. (((May)))
Ugh May. I am so sorry. So, so sorry.
I don't think you can R with a man who wants someone else, and isn't willing to do the work to get her out of his life and repair both himself and the marriage. I believe you have waited, and I believe you said you were going to wait and maybe see where you were in August. Do you want to do that still, or does this change things?
I don't know how sincere he's been or how well he's been trying the last few months, but it looks - from the outside - that fixing himself would involve having a good long hard look at his shortcomings and really feeling the pain of how he has treated you, and not fixing himself involves either him attempting to have it both ways - his mistress on the phone and his wife in the house and everyone, apparently, being fine with that, or leaving you for his mistress and blaming you for not being fine and friendly about it.
The only thing I think is left to you now is strict 100% consistent, cold, cold cold Last Resort going dark. You act as if you are single and he happens to be there, and you are willing to tolerate it civilly. No matter what the threats and whining and pouting are that you get from him. Prepare yourself, because at some point he will say some version of 'we could have r'd and had a happy ending if you weren't so cold and mean to me and didn't make me choose' and it will hurt, and it will also be the flailings of an emotional toddler not getting his own way.
To get him out of the house you're going to need to file and buy him out, and I accept you might not be ready for that. If you are, go ahead and do it - you don't need to discuss that with him, or the financial aspect of things. He can sit in the basement like a banished teenager and you can do all the financials and custody stuff via lawyers. It will be horrible. It will hurt. He will probably try every emotionally manipulative trick in the book to get you to stop it so he can have what he wants - your approval and forgiveness and the admiration of his grubby little mistress, and all of you buying into the fiction that he has a one great love, and a brilliantly understanding best friend who just happens to be the mother of his children. But that isn't true. It never was. He just needs it to be so he's not a complete... well... reprobate - and you don't need to give him that story. And even though the process of divorcing him will be horrible and it will hurt, it will also have an end point - where you can close the door and lock it behind him. And the other version of the story - where you wait for him to grow a conscience and commit to you - that doesn't really have an end point, does it?
I think your husband needs to change, badly. Your marriage won't work unless he changes his mind about his mistress, about who he is, about his part in it, and about what he needs to do next. And people don't change unless the discomfort of that is outweighed by the comfort of staying the same. I think your H is pretty well comfortable right now - and I'm not sure you can supply enough discomfort to him that would outweigh what it is going to cost him to take a look at himself and the stories he has been spinning himself.
Sit with this. Think about whether you want a man like this - who isn't able to reflect on his own behaviour, and who thinks treating women this way is preferable than taking the pain of self reflection. I know I've posted very harshly on your thread before and hurt you without meaning to, so I won't do it again - only to say I am so angry with your H and totally disgusted with how cowardly and immature he is. Do you have any anger of your own? Can you take that energy to make good strong decisions for yourself and your emotional safety?
May,
It is pathetic, really. I really don't want to hear about it.
The very fact that he wants to talk to you about it over and over is telling. It says to me (an outsider) that he doesn't care about your feelings. He doesn't care how his words are impacting you. He is in his own tunnels. There have been times when I've spoken to friends friends about my H and I realise it is unfair of me to burden them with my grief. And it is just plain selfish. He wants the focus to be on him.
I also really don't want to live in the same house with him still actively talking to her.
You are already living in a house where he is actively talking to her. Right now, he has to hide in the corners and do it. Once he moves to the basement, he will be free to talk to her as much as he wants WITH YOUR PERMISSION. He wants to do this knowing you are upstairs in your bedroom probably in tears.
This is the kind of man you are married to at the moment.
You two have never had any clear boundaries (I know, pot, kettle black). I think you need to decide what your boundaries are.
I'm so sorry May. This whole thing is such BS. His authentic self crap was exactly all that crap. The fact is he still doesn't know what he wants. Which is why he wants to stay and why he wants 6 months to see where things go. There is no real ulterior motive behind it. It's that he has 2 paths in front of him and he has no idea which to choose. Because like all these amazing WS/WAS they are chasing happiness thinking it's something you get from someone else. It's absolutely abhorrent that he'd think you'd sit around and wait for him for another 6 months after you've already been basically waiting this out 2 years. You don't have to talk through his feelings with him about his AP and he's insane for thinking that. He's grown. He has an IC. He needs to talk that out in the appropriate space. And the fact that you didn't kick him directly in the family jewels after all of this, seriously, bless you for that. Because I honestly don't know that I could've kept it that together.
That being said. You have time here to decide what you want to do. And how you want to proceed. I know this is crisis all over again and you just want a foothold or a place to grip so you can drag yourself along here, but he's in a tail spin and you don't need to go down with him. Take your time thinking about your new boundaries, your next move, your next 10 moves. I really like the suggestion of getting away for a few days. I think that would help like a lot. Some space from H and the house. I'm thinking of you. xoxo
Wow, just wow. What a pos. What is it with the “6 months”??!! These WAHs need a kick in the nuts.
I second Alison on going dark. As much as you can while still living together. Shut him down when he wants to share his feelings about AP (or anything) with you. Eating dinner together everyday?? What planet does he live on?? I would NOT allow that.
With that said, that is not easily done when you have kids around. They will have questions. Are you ready to break the news to them? “Mommy and daddy are having some problems right now, So daddy won’t be joining us for dinner.” “Daddy is staying in the basement because we need space from each other to figure things out.” You shouldn’t do the heavy lifting of talking to your children about it, but you are the only sane parent right now. Maybe you need to prepare for the difficult conversation.
Hugs. You are strong enough to get through this. With or without him.