Affair Fog-LRT 2 - DivorceBusting.com

Here is the link to my old thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2888554&page=1

I'm still trying to pull away but she keeps texting/calling to get me hooked again. I want to GAL, which I was, now everything is shut down around me due to the Corona. You are not allowed to be around more than 10ppl and almost everyone I know is social distancing...so no one wants to do anything. There are only so many times you can go for a walk or read a book. It's making all of this so hard.

I have to find away to get over her. But she keeps reaching out and I get weak and answer her. I need to find a way to be stronger. Also, I began reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. Still thinking it is me but there are things I did stand up to her about so not so sure. Anyways, nothing else to do with my time.

One more question...although I've started No More Mr. Nice Guy, I also want to get DB or DR.

Which is better to start with in my situation? Learning to DB after an affair?

My understanding is get DR. Anyone else?
Make it a rule to NEVER EVER answer within an hour, preferably longer. (unless real emergency) use that time to calm down and think about your SHORT answer.
If that is hard, Use airplane mode on your phone.
I do it all the time. Especially if I have just answered her. That way I avoid discussions.

GAL, find a workout routine now that gyms are closed, fix something on house, do an activity with kids, find a trail to walk.

Excellent advice on waiting an hour. I'll try the airplane mode as well. I've pulled back a lot but she ropes me back in. I have no idea if she's seeing the OM but I'm done asking her.

I just bought DR. I'll be fine with Mo More Mr Nice Guy by the time it arrives.

I'm going golfing tomorrow (one of the only things still open). Unfortunately, that means my daughter goes to daycare, which is still open. I feel guilty to send her through all of this but I need a break. I've had her all day, everyday for the last week due to Corona. Even on my W's days I take her cuz she is a nurse and will continue to work. I'm a teacher and we are shut down for 3 weeks. I need a break...

Sounds good! What about heading out in the woods with your daughter?

To be clear on the hour wait. You dont have to wait an hour for every single text message, rather when she tries to contact you. If she has a follow-up question its fine to answer directly. Just make sure to be short and if you get emotional DO NOT answer immediately.
Also dont wait exactly the same amount of time, she will notice.

Originally Posted by Mumin

My understanding is get DR. Anyone else?

Correct. I've read both and they are largely the same. Michele at some point said DR is basically a slight rewriting of DB. She felt DB was a little misleading as people read it and got the impression that DB'ing is a "quick fix" so they were getting frustrated when things didn't turn around quickly. So DR gives more realistic expectations of how long this takes.

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Make it a rule to NEVER EVER answer within an hour, preferably longer. (unless real emergency) use that time to calm down and think about your SHORT answer.
If that is hard, Use airplane mode on your phone.
I do it all the time. Especially if I have just answered her. That way I avoid discussions.

Great advice. I didn't use airplane mode but I did turn notifications off on W's texts after BD. Did the same with my GF when we had fights so I wouldn't be tempted to respond hastily (in anger). I would turn it on and off all the time with GF, LOL!

After continuing to detach and not chase or contact my W, I had to go help her out and pick up my D since my W was working from home (normally I wouldn't jump at her request but with the Corona restrictions we agreed to help each other). When I got there, I had to go in her room to change my daughter and saw she had wedding photos hanging on her cork board. These were not there a few moths ago. Granted, they were photos of my W in her wedding dress with her mom and family. But why would she hang those if she was done with me? She had no idea I was going in there so it isn't like it was set up ahead of time. I just find it hopeful that she has them up at all.

Also, we talked briefly about her working from our shared home since we both will be asked to work from home. My daughter doesn't have daycare anymore so her willing to do that says something too. Doesn't it?

Any advice?

Hi Kto626,

Glad you found something to smile about. It's a long road, and often a day of UPs if followed by a day of DOWNs. Smile and savor what was good today, but don't expect the same tomorrow. Expecting one uphill to lead to another and another often leads to disappointment and a crash and burn.

PS - CWarrior, heed this advice, too.

I would say wedding photos are a good sign. My W took down every photo in the house that reminds her about our past and untagged herself on all social media (including all our wedding photos).
But like CW said, Dont take it as a sign that you should approach her. Keep DB apporach!

I'm still DB'ing but my W and I spoke about doing something at the house with my D. With everyone social distancing, everything closing or already closed, there has been minimal contact with people. So we talked about playing a game or something together, something she agreed to.

I don't know how to read all of this with the current health scare. When I spoke to my IC, he thought it would be beneficial for everyone to do something together. Times have changed and it's looking more and more likely they are going to enforce a lockdown, which means she would move in. But I figured I would shift to DB'ing with her home.

Why would she have to move back in?

Because they may lockdown and tell everyone they can't leave their homes. Then our D can't go back and forth between us both.

Yesterday, my W came by with my D and they stayed for an hour or two while we all hung out in the backyard. I didn't talk about us, the future, the OM, or anything like that. Being around each other is new to me while DB'ing so I'm not sure how to do it. I just focused on logistics and the craziness with the Corona stuff.

My W is the one who reached out to me saying she heard they are requiring everyone to stay home sometime this weekend, bought a bunch of groceries, and brought them over. She said she will have to move in if that happens. I'm trying not to read into it but how can I not? She can't see the OM because bars are closed and she is a fanatic about social distancing...I guess she could still see him but I really don't think she is.

If she moves in, I need to treat her like a roommate, right? Be kind, but not loving, supportive, but not overly helpful? She still hasn't processed any of the A with me but somehow I feel like this is a step in the right direction. Trying to DB in this crazy health scare isn't anything anyone has done before. I can't even file divorce papers if I wanted to...the courts are closed. I swear things happen for a reason and it's lining up that my W has to move in, can't see the OM, and forced to be a family. Am I wrong?

She's coming back today with my daughter to hangout. Social distancing has made it impossible to hangout with others, easily and we agreed we are in the same social bubble.

Hi KTO,

Are you aware that your WW controls this relationship? She is in an affair, and it appears that all you want is to have her back home again.......and maybe you're trying to convince yourself that she's not seeing the OM. The pitiful thing is that you know if she isn't seeing OM, it's due to the health crisis. So, yes, she is very much in control. All WW's are in control of the MR, until the LBH decides he is going to change the dynamics, and will not go back to how things use to be. The other posters have been giving you good advice, but you can't grasp it b/c you are too worried that you won't get her back.

I want you to start thinking differently, b/c you are waaaaaay too eager to take her back, and I don't think you really understand what you'll be getting, should she decide to stay. If that's the case, then you need to do a lot of work on your self respect.

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Yesterday, my W came by with my D and they stayed for an hour or two while we all hung out in the backyard. I didn't talk about us, the future, the OM, or anything like that. Being around each other is new to me while DB'ing so I'm not sure how to do it. I just focused on logistics and the craziness with the Corona stuff.

My W is the one who reached out to me saying she heard they are requiring everyone to stay home sometime this weekend, bought a bunch of groceries, and brought them over. She said she will have to move in if that happens.

Here's an example of what I mean about changing how you think. IMHO, she didn't reach out to you. (At lease, I'm not seeing it.) She told you what she'd do. Did she ask how you felt about her moving back? Were any conditions discussed?

I'm not suggesting you throw her out during a health crisis, but I just want you to start seeing with better vision.

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If she moves in, I need to treat her like a roommate, right? Be kind, but not loving, supportive, but not overly helpful?

Kind? Supportive? Okay, but knowing how nice-guys are, those lines are going to become quite blurry for you. How about......civil? Actually, I prefer a different analogy than the roommate. I think you need to picture her as being an old lady who owes you for room/board. A lying, cheating, old lady.

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She still hasn't processed any of the A with me but somehow I feel like this is a step in the right direction.

Well no.......b/c she doesn't see this as reconciliation. Did you think it was? ((hugs))

KTO, many LBH's are so focused on their WW just physically moving back home, that they don't stop to consider she hasn't changed a thing except her address. She's still wayward.

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Trying to DB in this crazy health scare isn't anything anyone has done before.

Maybe not, but there is nothing new under the sun. In other words, you wouldn't be the first H to deal with a WW under his own roof.

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I swear things happen for a reason and it's lining up that my W has to move in, can't see the OM, and forced to be a family. Am I wrong?

Why would you even want a woman who has to be forced into being a family? Something is terribly wrong with this picture. Please don't sell yourself this idea that once she's back under your roof, everything will ease back to normal. I'm not saying your M can't be saved. I'm just saying it requires much more than spending part of weekend together.

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She's coming back today with my daughter to hangout. Social distancing has made it impossible to hangout with others, easily and we agreed we are in the same social bubble.

Look at your quote ^^^^ through different eyes. What does it say?

Sandi, I agree with everything you said. We did discuss her moving in if there is a lockdown and agreed there would be boundaries (not sleeping in same room, not pretending things were back to normal, taking shifts taking care of my daughter as we are both working from home, etc). Honestly, I don't know what else to do.

We have been living apart for two months and my IC said working on a marriage while separated is very hard. Getting her in the house will allow us to begin to work. Yes, I need to know she is done with the A, but do I make that a requirement if we lock down and can't go anywhere? Trying to work while taking care of my daughter will be impossible. It could go on for weeks.

It is possible we don't lockdown, in which case she won't move in. I'm not going to pretend like it's back to normal if she moves in but I'm not sure what else I can do??? Old lady, roommate, whatever I want to call her. She just don't be my W. I can't GAL bc everything is closed, I can't go to the gym...closed, I can't see friends...social distancing. So what else can I do? Keep her away from her D for weeks? I don't know if I can personally do it,

I need more self respect but other than going to IC (which is now canceled), GAL'ing with friends (also stopped), I don't know how to improve that sitting at home with a 3 year old.

But everything you said is right. I'm just lost.

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Sandi, I agree with everything you said. We did discuss her moving in if there is a lockdown and agreed there would be boundaries (not sleeping in same room, not pretending things were back to normal, taking shifts taking care of my daughter as we are both working from home, etc). Honestly, I don't know what else to do.

Well, I gather this happened before you had time to really understand what you would need to do. That's okay, we will try to help as you go. One thing you need to keep in the back of your mind is that you can't discuss your DB plan of action with your W right now. By plan of action, I mean the action that you will take to change the relationship dynamics. No matter what was said when she announced she would stay there during lockdown, she is not rooting for the MR. Therefore, you will have to see her in a detached view, the same way you view a neighbor or co-worker. When you interact with her, you treat her with the same somewhat polite/friendly, but unemotional, detached mannerism and verbal interaction that you show when conducting a purchase transaction with a check-out clerk. Know what I mean? The minute your emotions get pull in, is the minute the situation has control over you and the relationship. Don't misunderstand and think I am saying you will never be able to express emotions again, but I'm talking about now, while you're dealing with a WW. You will need to continue practicing this emotional detachment as long as she is conducting herself like a WW. Having a child means there will be a certain amount of verbal interaction concerning her, and that is fine.

So, boundaries are designed to protect yourself. Imagine drawing a circle around yourself, and nothing gets inside that circle without consequences. Boundaries are based on your values, integrity, self respect, religion, morals, etc. You cannot control the other person, just yourself. If the other person does not respect your boundaries, you should react/respond with some type of action that shows you will not tolerate their treatment. Don't get crazy, just be thinking about your self respect and things you won't tolerate from your W, or anyone else for that matter. I don't suggest having a conversation with her about your personal boundaries right now while you are digesting so much information. IMHO, the things you and your W set up, sound more like house rules for the time she stays there. That's fine, nothing wrong with house rules, if they are followed.

Another point to always remember when setting a boundary, is to be prepared to backup your word. For example, if you say you will not stay in an open MR........then be prepared for her to call your bluff. Don't ever set a boundary, thinking it will control her actions. In fact, she always has a choice to honor your boundaries or disrespect them. If she disrespects them, then the next move is up to you. Boundaries are not ultimatums. Look at the link on boundaries, and I think you'll see what I'm trying to say.

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We have been living apart for two months and my IC said working on a marriage while separated is very hard. Getting her in the house will allow us to begin to work. Yes, I need to know she is done with the A, but do I make that a requirement if we lock down and can't go anywhere? Trying to work while taking care of my daughter will be impossible. It could go on for weeks.

I mean no disrespect to your IC, but this is not necessarily true when it is a wayward W case. The basis of waywardness is resentment, disrespect and rebellion. She has there in her heart/mind, along with other unattractive traits like selfishness and a sense of entitlement, etc. She lies, denies, betrays, manipulates, etc., etc. The WW usually has a hidden agenda when she leaves her H. If you know there is OM, then it may not be very hidden, but most WW's try to make their reasons sound "justified". It is not a piece of cake living under the same roof with a woman who doesn't respect you as a man..........but that is where you have to start your work. Before you can show great strides in being a H, you have to get her respect for you as a man. Do you follow what I'm saying? A wife cannot feel true desire for a H she doesn't respect, b/c that's how she is wired.

What I'm about to say doesn't mean there is a set pattern in what type of man she marries, however, it is somewhat staggering the amount of "nice-guys" that show up here as the LBH of a WW. IMHO, there is a reason, and it's all linked to her level of disrespect and how much he has allowed her to treat him like cr@p. She had a wayward mindset before the affair. Therefore, it's not all about the affair/OM. This affair may stop, but and she may move to the next one. It's true that her affair must end before there is a chance to save the M, but ending an affair doesn't guarantee success. Make sense? And, I rather doubt it will be a huge success, unless you decide to make changes. I don't mean that you start doing the housework, etc. It has nothing to do with the chores, and everything to do with how you command (not demand) respect.

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Yes, I need to know she is done with the A, but do I make that a requirement if we lock down and can't go anywhere? Trying to work while taking care of my daughter will be impossible. It could go on for weeks.

Well, unfortunately it appears that an agreement has already been made for her to stay during lockdown. Once we get clearance that it's safe to go out again, then you might decide to make some changes in your approach. For now, my advice is to be good to your child and yourself, first. Don't fret over your WW, her feelings, what she's thinking or her decisions. She has already told you enough to know she's not there to work on the MR, so don't show any sign that you might even be interested. I'm telling you.........the H has to pull back from showing interest in her. Most nice guy LBH's are so concerned he will lose her if he doesn't kiss her rear,.......but the opposite is true. That's why I said not to fret over every little thing during lockdown.

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It is possible we don't lockdown, in which case she won't move in. I'm not going to pretend like it's back to normal if she moves in but I'm not sure what else I can do???

Maybe I'm not understanding you, but you sound as if you don't have choices. Are you saying you don't know any other way to behave around her other than act as if everything has returned to normal? Man, I hope that's not what you mean. Perhaps you mean you don't know how to turn things in the direction they need to go. If so, don't worry about it right now. First, you have to learn before you can steer anything in the right direction. That's what you're doing now, hopefully.

You can't turn it around in one day, no matter how great you are, b/c once she ends her affair, she'll have massive work ahead of her.

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I can't GAL bc everything is closed, I can't go to the gym...closed, I can't see friends...social distancing. So what else can I do? Keep her away from her D for weeks?

Seriously? Take advantage of the down time you have to read. I would think you have enough DB stuff to read to keep you plenty busy for several nights, maybe weeks. Have you read the links about WW's? It may not be the most "fun" stuff, but it will keep you busy reading. You don't have to socialize in order to GAL. It's anything you enjoy doing (and don't say hang out with your WW). Why do you have to go to a gym? Are there no kind of exercise you can do that doesn't require equipment? Crank up the music and get after it. Play with your little girl.

Lock down is not exactly "roughing it". This is a problem, mainly, b/c you aren't thinking in the right frame of mind yet.

I have no idea what you mean by asking if you should keep your WW away from your D.

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I need more self respect but other than going to IC (which is now canceled), GAL'ing with friends (also stopped), I don't know how to improve that sitting at home with a 3 year old.

What does needing more self respect have to do with staying home with a three year old? I know you feel lost and overwhelmed, but don't give up. I want to see you change into the man you can be. That needs to come first. Work on the man, and the other will start to work itself out.

Ur getting AWESOME advice from Sandi here KT.
Read the "newcomer with WW threads"! They help a lot with mindset.

Can you please explain WHY living arrangements would have to change because of a lockdown?
My understanding is that when W has your D they are currently living somewhere else?
Why cant W keep living at other place?
Why wouldnt you be able to "switch" during a lockdown?
Are they going to force every single separated/divorced parents to not switch for several weeks?

Forced to be a family? Do you ACTUALLY think of that in a positive manner?

My biggest learning with my WW.
IF you stand your ground without being rude she will respect you. She knows what shes done.
Three weeks ago I was VERY scared to throw W out of MBR. Afraid of a confilct/fight.
Just stood my ground. Said I am sleeping in my bed, and now she has moved out to our cabin the days she is here.
No fight.

What if this is her reconciliation? What if she did stop seeing the OM? Her friends have a major influence on her and they all are calling her on her cra@p. I don't know until she says it to be but I've near bed "believe nothing that she says and half of what she does."

Her behaviors lately show me she wants back in. I don't know her motives but are you telling me to not try to find out her intentions? Knowing how guarded and stubborn W is, I feel like this is her way back in. Only now to I require she goes to IC, owns her cr@p, and work on herself.

I will continue to DB but I was only cordial today.

Mumin, the lockdown I've heard is that no one leaves their home unless it's the doctors, grocery store, or pharmacy.

I really appreciate Sandi, Mumin, and everyone else who has offered me advice. I'm extremely thankful for this site.

My DR book arrived today. And as Sandi said, I've got lots of time for reading!

Originally Posted by kto626

What if this is her reconciliation? What if she did stop seeing the OM? Her friends have a major influence on her and they all are calling her on her cra@p. I don't know until she says it to be but I've near bed "believe nothing that she says and half of what she does."

Her behaviors lately show me she wants back in. I don't know her motives but are you telling me to not try to find out her intentions? Knowing how guarded and stubborn W is, I feel like this is her way back in. Only now to I require she goes to IC, owns her cr@p, and work on herself.

@kt626

Trust the vets in the forum. It sounds like you are not detached nor thinking clearly, and you are trying to convince yourself that she wants reconciliation because you think it will end your suffering.

Has she done the work to grow? What books have she read? Have she gone to indivicidual counseling?

If you give in now, the pattern will repeat again, and you will be in for more suffering.

My W has gone back to IC, however, she did cancel twice over the last two months. Since then, her IC was canceled by her therapist due to the Corona scare. If I asked, she would go back to MC but I'm not there yet.

In the meantime, I my thought process will be confident and civil. That's all she will see of me. Do that while following the boundaries of sleeping in the other room and taking care if my D.

Any other suggestions if she moves in due to a potential lockdown? If she doesn't move in it will be easier to detach so I'm hoping they don't lock us down.

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What if this is her reconciliation?

There are two versions of reconciliation with a WW. One is structured and gives the most hope for a successful outcome. Her version is the other one. If you settle for her moving back indefinitely, sleeping in separate bedrooms, and acting as if nothing happened (like her infidelity), then you will buy yourself years of living in a soul crushing state of limbo.

The LBH cannot allow her to come back under her terms. She has a wayward mindset, so he's crazy to let her set the terms of reconciliation. He was the one betrayed! She's the one who has to regain his trust. She must prove herself by doing the hard work, or she won't come out of her wayward mindset. She has to agree to his terms. Now, you won't read this in Divorce Remedy, so don't be confused by what you read here. Just realize when you read the board's advice, you may feel you are getting something a little different in most cases. I wouldn't say it's different, but more like additional advice, and personalized.

So anyway, your W has been involved with OM, right? That means she not only has a wayward mindset, but she's openly rebelled against her M. Therefore, you need to understand that it's going to take work for both of you to heal from the effects of this affair. Your work and her work will not look the same. I encourage couples to seek a professional family therapist who specialize in couples healing after an affair. Don't go to some common MC.

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What if she did stop seeing the OM?

Well, what if she did? Like I said previously, it doesn't mean her heart has automatically changed. You were her Plan B all along, in case OM didn't work out. Is being Plan B okay with you? She thinks you would be tickled pink to get her back in the house under any circumstances. An unrepentant wayward wife is not going to offer the authentic measures necessary to save the M. She's going to get back through the door with as little as possible. Based on your posts, I think that's exactly what is happening.

Here's the thing, even if she has ended her affair, you would still need to follow certain terms in order to have a successful reconciliation.......unless you are willing to live in a sexless, loveless relationship for the rest of your life. You don't want that type of arrangement, do you? There was nothing I could determine about her moving home that indicated she was willing to work on the MR. Nothing about the M or the A was discussed, right? Like other unrepentant wayward wives, she told you the terms, and said nothing about working on the M. You don't know if OM is still in the picture, or anything. One thing's for sure.......just moving back doesn't mean reconciliation.

I think some of your confusion may be due to the possible lock down and her coming to stay a few days. Let's separate this by defining it as the lock down stay. It's not really an emergency, b/c she could stay where she's been staying, but just in order to help you distinguish two different events, we will refer to the lock down stay as one event, and the reconciliation as another event.

Was the agreement about her staying for the period of the lock down? Then don't look at this as some hidden sign that she wants to reconcile. It is a temporary stay! It is not a marriage reconciliation. You need to conduct yourself like it is nothing more than a temporary stay through the lock down.

If she really brings all her stuff back, like she's truly moving back? That's when you should speak up and get the low down on where she stands. Don't accept her excuses of not sure how she feels, or anything less than her willingness to cease all forms of contact with OM (and any other man), and will agree to full transparency. If she isn't willing to do the necessary work to save the M, then you shouldn't let her come back.

If she throws something at you and you're not sure how to respond, remember these words: "I'll have to think about it and let you know". I mean, you don't say it to every little thing, but if you seriously don't know which way to go, tell her these words, and then come to the board for advice.

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Her friends have a major influence on her and they all are calling her on her cra@p. I don't know until she says it to be but I've near bed "believe nothing that she says and half of what she does."

The rule about believe nothing she says and half of what she does.......is a metaphor. It's to let you know she can't be trusted to tell the truth. She is deceitful, and a trickster. She is a manipulator and has a sense of entitlement. Until she shows true remorse, humility, and asks for your forgiveness and is willing to do whatever it takes to save the MR........you don't believe what you hear or see from her. You don't even believe tears she may squeeze out of her eyes.

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Her behaviors lately show me she wants back in. I don't know her motives but are you telling me to not try to find out her intentions?

Separate the two possible periods she might come and stay. If she comes for the lock down period, then don't discuss the relationship with her. If she continues staying well after lock down period has past........then you speak up and about her intentions. I'm trusting that you did not verbally agree for her to stay there indefinitely, since you didn't say so in your post. If I'm wrong, then tell me.

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Knowing how guarded and stubborn W is, I feel like this is her way back in.

She can't come back to permanently stay if she has stubborn pride, b/c she won't work on the MR. She can't be guarded, b/c she will need to be open and cooperative about everything. Don't forget who is the cheater and liar here. Don't walk around on eggshells, afraid she'll leave. You've got to find the b@lls to stand up to her and make your terms known.......if she expects to stay there indefinitely. But for right now, try to relax a little bit b/c you can't absorb much information if you are scared out of your pants.

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Only now to I require she goes to IC, owns her cr@p, and work on herself.

No.....not IC. She needs to be willing to go with you to a family therapist who works with couples healing after an affair. Yes, she certainly needs to own her own her cr@p.

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I will continue to DB but I was only cordial today.

What does that mean?

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I really appreciate Sandi, Mumin, and everyone else who has offered me advice. I'm extremely thankful for this site.

As long as you will keep posting, you will get replies from those who want to give you support. We all have different personalities and styles of writing, but we have the same end goal in mind.

I want to remind you not to share with her what we say on the board. We are giving YOU the tools to use.

Don't give up. Things did not get to this place in a day, and they won't heal in a day. Continue to ask any questions you may have, and please don't hesitate to ask for clarification of anything I've stated.

Originally Posted by sandi2

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What if this is her reconciliation?

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So anyway, your W has been involved with OM, right? That means she not only has a wayward mindset, but she's openly rebelled against her M. Therefore, you need to understand that it's going to take work for both of you to heal from the effects of this affair. Your work and her work will not look the same. I encourage couples to seek a professional family therapist who specialize in couples healing after an affair. Don't go to some common MC.

We were seeing a MC who specializes in divorce mediation. We liked him, but I stopped going due to her (at the time) contnuing to talk to the OM

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Here's the thing, even if she has ended her affair, you would still need to follow certain terms in order to have a successful reconciliation.......unless you are willing to live in a sexless, loveless relationship for the rest of your life. You don't want that type of arrangement, do you? There was nothing I could determine about her moving home that indicated she was willing to work on the MR. Nothing about the M or the A was discussed, right? Like other unrepentant wayward wives, she told you the terms, and said nothing about working on the M. You don't know if OM is still in the picture, or anything. One thing's for sure.......just moving back doesn't mean reconciliation.

I agree. She is trying to find a way in but I will post an update below as there has been some effort on her part to begin to own her horrible behaviors.

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I think some of your confusion may be due to the possible lock down and her coming to stay a few days. Let's separate this by defining it as the lock down stay. It's not really an emergency, b/c she could stay where she's been staying, but just in order to help you distinguish two different events, we will refer to the lock down stay as one event, and the reconciliation as another event.

That is a good way to look at it.

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Was the agreement about her staying for the period of the lock down? Then don't look at this as some hidden sign that she wants to reconcile. It is a temporary stay! It is not a marriage reconciliation. You need to conduct yourself like it is nothing more than a temporary stay through the lock down.

We really didn't talk about it. We just said if there was a lockdown we would have to suck it up and live together to get through this. I implied that to mean she would move out when it is done. I have decided she needs to end contact with the OM (I haven't even asked her because I am detaching and focusing on myself), she continues IC (she was going but things have changed with the Corona), full transparency, and begin MC. She will not stay here unless those things happen. I am thinking 3-6 MC sessions before I even determine if she can come back. However, I don't even think we can get an appointment right now with everything closing.

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If she really brings all her stuff back, like she's truly moving back? That's when you should speak up and get the low down on where she stands. Don't accept her excuses of not sure how she feels, or anything less than her willingness to cease all forms of contact with OM (and any other man), and will agree to full transparency. If she isn't willing to do the necessary work to save the M, then you shouldn't let her come back.

She barely even took anything out of the house other than clothes. But I will know her intentions before I agree to any longer stay. She needs to respect my wishes on R if she is moving in.

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If she throws something at you and you're not sure how to respond, remember these words: "I'll have to think about it and let you know". I mean, you don't say it to every little thing, but if you seriously don't know which way to go, tell her these words, and then come to the board for advice.

Great advice.

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Separate the two possible periods she might come and stay. If she comes for the lock down period, then don't discuss the relationship with her. If she continues staying well after lock down period has past........then you speak up and about her intentions. I'm trusting that you did not verbally agree for her to stay there indefinitely, since you didn't say so in your post. If I'm wrong, then tell me.

There was no long term talk of her staying or going. However, she will know what I expect if she plans to come back for good. My hope is there isn't a lockdown and she can't move in until I say.

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No.....not IC. She needs to be willing to go with you to a family therapist who works with couples healing after an affair. Yes, she certainly needs to own her own her cr@p.

I agree.

QUOTE

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I will continue to DB but I was only cordial today.

What does that mean?

It means I was acting confident in myself, seeming happy and content, but also civil towards her.

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I really appreciate Sandi, Mumin, and everyone else who has offered me advice. I'm extremely thankful for this site.

As long as you will keep posting, you will get replies from those who want to give you support. We all have different personalities and styles of writing, but we have the same end goal in mind.

I want to remind you not to share with her what we say on the board. We are giving YOU the tools to use.

Don't give up. Things did not get to this place in a day, and they won't heal in a day. Continue to ask any questions you may have, and please don't hesitate to ask for clarification of anything I've stated.

Thanks!

QUOTE

An update from yesterday:

I had our D and my W was to come to get her after she got out of work. She asked if we all wanted to go for a walk. I agreed this time. Again, I was civil but not chasing in any way. When we got back, she said that she was disappointed in herself and that everyone should be disappointed in her. She asked if my family and friends hated her. I told her no but they were also disappointed and angry that you did this. She said he understood that. That they deserve to have "choice words" with her.

We started talking logistics of the week (she begins working from home as I do so we talked about what that would look like for our D). She asked if she could have dinner at the house due to working late. I agreed. At that point, she said, we are taking this one day at a time. I didn't really respond and refocused on my D. We did hang out outside for a few hours and we did have laughs and good discussion (not about the A). I realize this may look like she is trying to brush this under the rug, which she could be, but I will not allow her off the hook that easy. As Sandi said, if she plans to stay longterm she will then know my expectations. If it is a lockdown, she is "the old lady living with me who owes me rent" and I will not discuss the A or R at all.

I could tell this was her way of "breaking the ice" to start the convo. However, I didn't want to have it then nor did I want to push her about the OM. Should I ask if she is going to move in as a result of a lockdown? I would definitely ask if was her just moving in w/o a lockdown. Truth be told, she can't see him anyways and I know for a fact she hasn't been seeing him because she is at her parents, at work, or at my house. I know I am naive, but I think she is removing herself from him. It helps she doesn't have a choice with the Corona scare. Hell, she bartends once a week down the road and that is where she met the OM...the place closed its doors a few days ago and said they don't know if they can open again (they were struggling financially before the Corona scar).

I guess what I am saying is, I know my W. She is so stubborn, defensive and builds walls anytime there is a problem. Yesterday, she took a few bricks down. But that doesn't mean my wall is coming down. But she is definitely beginning to change.

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We were seeing a MC who specializes in divorce mediation. We liked him, but I stopped going due to her (at the time) contnuing to talk to the OM

Divorce mediation does not sound the same as a qualified therapist working with the couple to heal and save their M. Isn't it someone who works to resolve issues in the divorce? Maybe I'm wrong. One thing I'm not wrong about is this........as long as your WW is continuing to contact OM, she's not going to do the work to save her MR. Her work begins when she ends all contact with OM.

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We really didn't talk about it. We just said if there was a lockdown we would have to suck it up and live together to get through this.

Why would you have to live together to get through this health crisis? Did she give an explanation, or did she just say that's what you'd need to do......and you didn't object to her? I only bring this up b/c I have a feeling some of communication issues in the past were due to her not clearly stating things and you assuming what she meant. (I am bad at making assumptions, also.)

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I implied that to mean she would move out when it is done. I have decided she needs to end contact with the OM (I haven't even asked her because I am detaching and focusing on myself),

Yep, I can see how communication is a big problem.

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We started talking logistics of the week (she begins working from home as I do so we talked about what that would look like for our D). She asked if she could have dinner at the house due to working late. I agreed. At that point, she said, we are taking this one day at a time. I didn't really respond and refocused on my D. We did hang out outside for a few hours and we did have laughs and good discussion (not about the A). I realize this may look like she is trying to brush this under the rug, which she could be, but I will not allow her off the hook that easy.

I suspect rug sweeping is exactly what she's trying to do. I've seen this same scenario played many times, and almost the same words spoken by the WW. WW's are like snakes who try to slither through a crack. She thinks she can be nice a couple of days and you won't require anything more from her. She's going to be surprised, may even get riled up when she finds out you aren't that easily played. Look, I know you want to believe she has kicked her OM to the curb, but please don't bank on it. Just b/c she isn't seeing him in person, doesn't mean she's not in contact with him. When your W said, "We are taking this one day at a time", was when you should have spoke up and let her know where you stand. Oh boy, have I heard that line used by many WW's who had no intention of doing the right thing. She's looking out for number one, and thinks she can just slither under the door and the H will have to accept it.

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Should I ask if she is going to move in as a result of a lockdown? I would definitely ask if was her just moving in w/o a lockdown.

I'm confused. I thought she was there. Anyway, here's my suggestion. You can ask her what her intentions are. If she still beats around the bush, then tell her you are not in favor of her staying there indefinitely.....without a commitment from her to do the necessary work to save the M. Also tell her that you won't settle for just taking one day at a time to see if things will simply ease back into a comfortable arrangement, b/c a lot more will be required before you are willing to live under the same roof without a serious commitment to saving the MR. If she asks what you mean, then you can start by telling her you won't live in an open marriage, and she'll need to end all manner of contact with OM. If she claims they've broken up or whatever, you tell her you wish you could believe her, but it's not that simple anymore. She has betrayed your trust, so if she wants to reconcile, then she needs to agree to transparency. No matter how she balks, or cries that it is intrusion of privacy, or claims you only want to control her.......stick to your guns. Don't back down. There is no need to bring up anything else, until she agrees to no contact with OM, and agrees to transparency. Understand? If she agrees, then you can continue with the rest of your terms. If she doesn't agree, then tell her there is nothing else to say at this time, and then leave the room or whatever.

I had hoped she wouldn't play this game, and you could wait until after the lock down period. However, since she's already making noises about taking a day at a time, that's a signal she plans to settle down and live like roommates. If you feel you are strong enough to handle it, then go ahead and approach her. But don't start out by asking her about the OM. You need to tell her what you need in order to reconcile, and if she won't cooperate, then you will prepare to take the next step. (The next step, meaning you will seek legal separation or divorce.) If you can't back up your words, then don't even put it out there. BTW, do not agree to an "in-house separation". That's the worse thing you could do. I've never seen it work.

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But she is definitely beginning to change.

She has showed no real changes. You had a couple of good days, b/c she wants to come home. That's all. True changing doesn't come that easy! A wayward W has it pretty rough while making real changes, b/c she has to get her heart/mindset right and try to make amends for everything she's done to you. Her old stubborn pride will want to hold her back. She'll want to tell you "her terms" of reconciliation. She's in no position to give terms, b/c you are the betrayed party. I'm not saying you don't have things to work on, but she can't be all high & mighty, laying down the rules to you. I've seen many, many WW's play that card. No, that doesn't work. She is the one who broke the wedding vows, not you. You can't afford to be weak when you are dealing with her. It's hard, b/c you want her back, but if you won't back down, there's a good chance she'll work through this and your M will be saved. She may refuse at first, but if she wants to live with you......she'll decide to do the necessary work.

All I can do is try to warn you how a WW operates. It doesn't matter that you know her as your W, b/c she is no longer that same person. Currently, I don't think you know this wayward wife at all. In my WW thread on "Help for the Newcomer LBH with a WW #2" I talk about the danger of taking back a WW too quickly and too easily.......if you are interested in reading it.

Originally Posted by sandi2

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We were seeing a MC who specializes in divorce mediation. We liked him, but I stopped going due to her (at the time) contnuing to talk to the OM

Divorce mediation does not sound the same as a qualified therapist working with the couple to heal and save their M. Isn't it someone who works to resolve issues in the divorce? Maybe I'm wrong. One thing I'm not wrong about is this........as long as your WW is continuing to contact OM, she's not going to do the work to save her MR. Her work begins when she ends all contact with OM.

-------The MC does have experience with working through relationships. He wants it to work for us...I know that because he is seeing me individually now (after I said I wouldn't go back to MC with her until she ends contact with the OM. --------

[quote]We really didn't talk about it. We just said if there was a lockdown we would have to suck it up and live together to get through this.

Why would you have to live together to get through this health crisis? Did she give an explanation, or did she just say that's what you'd need to do......and you didn't object to her? I only bring this up b/c I have a feeling some of communication issues in the past were due to her not clearly stating things and you assuming what she meant. (I am bad at making assumptions, also.)

--------she would only live in my house if they lockdown and you can't send my daughter back and forth between our houses (she lives with her parents and me in the house). I didn't object because raising a 3 year old, by myself while working for up to two weeks would be very, very difficult. Also, not good for my D. ------------

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I implied that to mean she would move out when it is done. I have decided she needs to end contact with the OM (I haven't even asked her because I am detaching and focusing on myself),

Yep, I can see how communication is a big problem.

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Should I ask if she is going to move in as a result of a lockdown? I would definitely ask if was her just moving in w/o a lockdown.

I'm confused. I thought she was there. Anyway, here's my suggestion. You can ask her what her intentions are. If she still beats around the bush, then tell her you are not in favor of her staying there indefinitely.....without a commitment from her to do the necessary work to save the M. Also tell her that you won't settle for just taking one day at a time to see if things will simply ease back into a comfortable arrangement, b/c a lot more will be required before you are willing to live under the same roof without a serious commitment to saving the MR. If she asks what you mean, then you can start by telling her you won't live in an open marriage, and she'll need to end all manner of contact with OM. If she claims they've broken up or whatever, you tell her you wish you could believe her, but it's not that simple anymore. She has betrayed your trust, so if she wants to reconcile, then she needs to agree to transparency. No matter how she balks, or cries that it is intrusion of privacy, or claims you only want to control her.......stick to your guns. Don't back down. There is no need to bring up anything else, until she agrees to no contact with OM, and agrees to transparency. Understand? If she agrees, then you can continue with the rest of your terms. If she doesn't agree, then tell her there is nothing else to say at this time, and then leave the room or whatever.

--------she is not living here until they order a lockdown. Today, they ordered all nonessential companies to close, but no lockdown or stay in place. Therefore, she is not going to live here. In regards to the OM, when do I ask her if she is still in contact? I would like to believe that she is a decent human and after hurting me so bad she wouldn't do that again. But I realize that is naive. I just find it hard she would do all of this again. She had her chance to leave after all of this, and has, but now to call crawling back. Oh, after reading through OS2 sitch, we sound like we have similar issues. My W did give me the line "I just want to be happy" yesterday...I said, yeah me too--------

I had hoped she wouldn't play this game, and you could wait until after the lock down period. However, since she's already making noises about taking a day at a time, that's a signal she plans to settle down and live like roommates. If you feel you are strong enough to handle it, then go ahead and approach her. But don't start out by asking her about the OM. You need to tell her what you need in order to reconcile, and if she won't cooperate, then you will prepare to take the next step. (The next step, meaning you will seek legal separation or divorce.) If you can't back up your words, then don't even put it out there. BTW, do not agree to an "in-house separation". That's the worse thing you could do. I've never seen it work.

Quote

But she is definitely beginning to change.

She has showed no real changes. You had a couple of good days, b/c she wants to come home. That's all. True changing doesn't come that easy! A wayward W has it pretty rough while making real changes, b/c she has to get her heart/mindset right and try to make amends for everything she's done to you. Her old stubborn pride will want to hold her back. She'll want to tell you "her terms" of reconciliation. She's in no position to give terms, b/c you are the betrayed party. I'm not saying you don't have things to work on, but she can't be all high & mighty, laying down the rules to you. I've seen many, many WW's play that card. No, that doesn't work. She is the one who broke the wedding vows, not you. You can't afford to be weak when you are dealing with her. It's hard, b/c you want her back, but if you won't back down, there's a good chance she'll work through this and your M will be saved. She may refuse at first, but if she wants to live with you......she'll decide to do the necessary work.

-----------If there isn't a lockdown, then she won't move in. Then I will continue to detach and GAL (the best I can with everything closed). Should I restate my demands? End contact with the OM, MC, and IC for her (which neither of those can even happen with everything closed)------- And I like hearing you say if I don't back down there is a good chance this marriage can be saved. I truly believe it can and need to follow your advice on how to make that happen. It just becomes more difficult with business closed, MC and C's closed, social distancing (that is why she is hanging out here because we are not hanging out with anyone else but each other). Is that a good thing...we are forced to spend some quality time as a family? There is no other option for weeks. I can tell she had fun yesterday, and there must be some part of the plan to have her love me again by me being secure, civil, and seemingly unbothered by her being WW.--------------

All I can do is try to warn you how a WW operates. It doesn't matter that you know her as your W, b/c she is no longer that same person. Currently, I don't think you know this wayward wife at all. In my WW thread on "Help for the Newcomer LBH with a WW #2" I talk about the danger of taking back a WW too quickly and too easily.......if you are interested in reading it.

---------I'm going to check it out now. Also, I need to figure out this quoting thing...no matter what I do it doesn't work for me! ----------

Originally Posted by kto626

Is that a good thing...we are forced to spend some quality time as a family? There is no other option for weeks. I think she is removing herself from him. It helps she doesn't have a choice with the Corona scare.

Hi Kto626,

Consider you may be overblowing how much coronavirus restricts her options. Most shelter-in-place laws allow exceptions for "essential activities"--a broad term that in my area includes complying with court orders (custody changes). In my divorced parents group' nobody mentioned moving in with their ex because of coronavirus. Driving to transfer kids between homes itself wouldn't seem to affect risk much, unless one home was inherently risky e.g., a house vs. being a roommate in an apartment.

Another essential activity is outdoor exercise while maintaining 6 or more feet of social distance. I went hiking with 9 people this week and have had long calls with old friends. I don't see that me being intimate with my partner is any more or less COVID-19 risky than her being with OM as long as they're monogamous. She's less likely to "happen" across existing or new men while bartending or out dancing.

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In my divorced parents group' nobody mentioned moving in with their ex because of coronavirus. Driving to transfer kids between homes itself wouldn't seem to affect risk much, unless one home was inherently risky e.g., a house vs. being a roommate in an apartment.

Exactly my point a few posts earlier. There is no way they would stop ppl from allowing their kids to meet there parents.

How to QUOTE:
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Originally Posted by CWarrior

Originally Posted by kto626

Is that a good thing...we are forced to spend some quality time as a family? There is no other option for weeks. I think she is removing herself from him. It helps she doesn't have a choice with the Corona scare.

Hi Kto626,

Consider you may be overblowing how much coronavirus restricts her options. Most shelter-in-place laws allow exceptions for "essential activities"--a broad term that in my area includes complying with court orders (custody changes). In my divorced parents group' nobody mentioned moving in with their ex because of coronavirus. Driving to transfer kids between homes itself wouldn't seem to affect risk much, unless one home was inherently risky e.g., a house vs. being a roommate in an apartment.

At this point, we are being "advised" to stay home. So it isn't necessary for her to stay. However, she is going to work from here upstairs so she can help with the D. I guess I am letting her back in without staying here but maybe I dumb. I still don't know if I should just ask about the OM or state my requirements, one being ending contact with the OM, and see how she reacts??

Another essential activity is outdoor exercise while maintaining 6 or more feet of social distance. I went hiking with 9 people this week and have had long calls with old friends. I don't see that me being intimate with my partner is any more or less COVID-19 risky than her being with OM as long as they're monogamous. She's less likely to "happen" across existing or new men while bartending or out dancing.

Yeah, I have been going for walks and having bonfires with people while staying away.

QUOTE: Consider you may be overblowing how much coronavirus restricts her options. Most shelter-in-place laws allow exceptions for "essential activities"--a broad term that in my area includes complying with court orders (custody changes). In my divorced parents group' nobody mentioned moving in with their ex because of coronavirus. Driving to transfer kids between homes itself wouldn't seem to affect risk much, unless one home was inherently risky e.g., a house vs. being a roommate in an apartment..[/quote]

At this point, we are being "advised" to stay home. So it isn't necessary for her to stay. However, she is going to work from here upstairs so she can help with the D. I guess I am letting her back in without staying here but maybe I dumb. I still don't know if I should just ask about the OM or state my requirements, one being ending contact with the OM, and see how she reacts??

My W came by after she got out of work and we played with my D. After so talk, I finally said, "what I said before is still true: you need to end contact with the OM and begin MC before anything else happens. She got angry/agitated, so I said, "have you ended contact?" which she replied, "no, I told you I still talk to him." So I said then "Then I don't want you here."She immediately talked about tomorrow and working from my house. I said, "I can't accept you continuing an affair and have you here working." She got so mad.

I then said, "I am not bailing you out to watch our D on your scheduled day's." She basically told me she has to work so I have to. She said, "What are you going to leave your daughter out in the cold." I told her "It's not my problem to figure out." She said she got so mad she could punch me. She started yelling about divorce, and how we should just do it.

I will be honest, I chased a little bit, saying you treat me this way and I am supposed to bail you out. That she hurt me s bad and this is how you treat me? I asked her to leave and bever come back.

I am struggling with what to do next. Go dark? How can I not bail her out and watch my D when she has work (she is a nurse and the Corona scare makes her work...sometimes at home, sometimes in the office)?

She is seeing or talking to the OM. She hasn't processed or really apologized. I need to be done. I need to 180 and detach but it so hard.

Quick update: After the fight/argument (see above), my W called 25 times....I didn't pick up. She texted numerous times asking to speak to our D. I didn't respond. She texted if I didn't respond, she would come back to my house. She texted she would call the police. I didn't respond. Finally, at 8 pm (the calls started at 7:35), I texted back and said FaceTime at 8pm (our normal time to FT). I had my D FT with her and I walked away. I could tell my W was hanging on to talk to me after...I didn't talk to her and hung up.

Immediately after the call, she texted and said: "eat S#it". Then she texted and said, you have to help me on the days I have work or I will move into the basement (my house). I didn't respond.

honestly, I don't know how to respond but I can hear all of you telling me to ignore her anger, calls, and texts. I cannot accept her still talking/seeing the OM. I can't.

Should I watch my D on the days my W is supposed to have her but still has to go to work? Honestly, I think she is working from home (her parent's house) the next couple days so the BS about her needing help or she will move into the basement seems like crap to me.

I feel slightly empowered by setting my boundaries and expectations and telling her to leave and never come back until she does. I hope I feel this way tomorrow.

Update sincd thet w=start of this message....she just texted and daid she will be here (my house) in the morijng to talk. What do I do??????

It sounds like her PA has turned into an EA, while simultaneously trying to get back in the house as much as possible. She is still talking to him and it is difficult for her to see him...PA to EA. But that could flip quick when bars open agan.

I responded to her "I'm coming by to talk tomorrow" with "please respect my boundaries and do not come."

She replied with "you have to help me when I have to work and you know that." Then she said, " this was supposed to be about our D and you made it about you." She is referring to helping me by coming by the house after work. And by me stating my boundaries (NC with the OM, MC, etc), she says I'm making it about me. Early, during the fight, I told her I don't want her help and I don't want her in the house ever again.

I did not respond to any of her texts after asking her to respect my boundaries. Between numerous calls and texts, I ignored her.

This all escalated a lot tonight.

Hi Kto626,

Deep breaths. (: I'll cut to your key question.

Originally Posted by kto626

Update sincd thet w=start of this message....she just texted and daid she will be here (my house) in the morijng to talk. What do I do??????

If you have to engage--and it's likely you will at some point if she has the right to enter the home and/or because you share children--listen, validate, then leave the situation. If you can't retreat into your home, then maybe you can retreat into a bedroom. Try to avoid on-the-spot decisions or emotes.

She did not come over this morning but continued to text a lot. "I'm coming over this morning to help or you can bring her to me." No response from me. Then, "You can't keep our D from me." Then, "I'm going to call a lawyer to tell them that I'm an essential employee (during Corona scare...she's a pediatric nurse) and you won't help me." Then, "you are using our D to get back at me, you should be ashamed."

I'm scheduled to have my D Mon-Thur, so no way she actually thinks I'm keeping our D from her. So I finally said, "please respect my boundaries and you will get our D on Thursday."

Also, one more thing from last night, my W got so defensive and angry after I said I do not accept her being in contact with the OM, therefore, I didn't want her there (our house) and I didn't want her help. She exploded and yelled, swore, threatened to punch me in my face, all while being 2 ft away from my daughter. After she left, within 10 minutes called and texted 20+ times, over and over. Once even stating "I worried for our D safety." Really!!!! You just flipped out and threatened me and I remained fairly calm.

Then this morning, saying "that is was sad that I'm doing this to our D." Again, really!!! You had an A for over a year!!! What I did to our D? Wow.

I was naive and foolish to think she was changing. She was cake eating and probably scared over finances due to losing work hours as result of this health scare. She even asked me for $ the other day if she gets stuck. And don't worry, I deflected that one by saying the govt is working on a financial package to help.

I'm going to sit down and write my boundaries up to email her (if you guys agree it's a good idea). I will post them on here first.

You guys were, right. She's nowhere ready but I think with her frantic calls, emails, telling me she's moving into the basement, all proves she is thinking about working it out but I want to be clear what she needs to do first before that happens. Remorse, Regret, end contact with the OM, transparency, MC and IC.

Here is what I would send via email...let me know if I should change anything:

My Boundaries:

1. Do not contact me unless it is an emergency regarding or D. Otherwise, we will continue to FaceTime at 8pm every night.
2. Do not come into the house without speaking with me first.
3. Do not expect me to help you out financially or watching our D on your scheduled days when you have to work. (Tgi's one is hard with her being a nurse and a essential employee. I just feel like I bailing out my W and not my D).

I don't know if I should include these. My guess is you will say no but I don't know if/when I would send this.

If you end contact with the OM, become transparent with all emails, apps, etc, begin MC, then we can talk about what happens next.

First of all..............

for a great job standing your ground and not letting her slither under the door. Hold the line and do not agree to let her work from the house. She is using the child to make you feel guilty, saying you are throwing your baby out, etc. A WW is not worried about her kids, she simply uses them for her selfish, manipulative, power over the H.

I read your updates quickly, so if I am missing something, let me know. IMHO, she can stay with her parents and work from their home......or wherever, but you don't have to allow her back into your home on her excuses. Now, be prepared in case some poster starts telling you that if her name is on the mortgage then blah, blah, blah. Don't worry about any of that right now. If she wants to push things legally, so be it. Don't mention any of this to her. I'm just sharing with you, in case it comes up in a post. I see a woman who retreated b/c her H had the b@lls to tell his cheating W that she wasn't wanted there as long as she was still contacting her lover. Bravo!!

She may make all kinds of threats and throw you under the bus, but it's b/c she knows she is wrong and that you have every right in the world to kick her out. NOBODY KNOWS BETTER THAN A WW THAT SHE IS AS GUILTY AS SIN. She knows when she is taking advantage and throwing a few bread crumbs at the LBH, like being all warm & fuzzy, saying, "We'll just take one day at a time", while she lives under his roof, sleeping in separate beds and she continues her affair. She KNOWS what she's doing. She knows she is doing you wrong!

Ignore her constant calls, she just wants to verbally bash you, try to manipulate you, use her tears to make you feel sorry for her........whatever new trick she pulls out of her bag. Two most used cards the WW will play are: Guilt card, where she tries to make you feel guilty for being so hard on her. And, the control card, where she accuses you of trying to control her. Pretty rich, considering she can be a slick manipulator. This is who you are dealing with. It's the girl you fell in love with, okay?

Continue the regularly scheduled face time between mother & child. You don't participate. (Good job!) She'll try to get your attention any way she can. Don't buy it.

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I was naive and foolish to think she was changing.

However, you were posting and reading our advice, and LEARNING. That's the game-changer! I admire a man who respects himself enough to put a WW in her place, in spite of his personal loving feelings he still holds. It's hard, but I promise you she will respect you for it. She won't like, and may say she hates you.......but in she'll respect you. She may never tell you, b/c of her false pride, but she'll respect you.......b/c that's how she is wired. She may stay mad and hateful for quite a while, especially while she's still contacting OM. But when that affair is over, and if she's suffered enough consequences, she stands a greater chance in making a turnaround in her own mindset. If she wants it badly enough. In the meantime, your job is to hold that line and don't get soft and become all melty-man.

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She was cake eating and probably scared over finances due to losing work hours as result of this health scare. She even asked me for $ the other day if she gets stuck.

See what I'm talking about? She isn't thinking of anyone but her own benefit.

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I'm going to sit down and write my boundaries up to email her (if you guys agree it's a good idea). I will post them on here first.

No! Not yet. Hold on, and give me a few minutes to talk to you about it in the next post. Okay?

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IMHO, she can stay with her parents and work from their home......or wherever, but you don't have to allow her back into your home on her excuses. Now, be prepared in case some poster starts telling you that if her name is on the mortgage then blah, blah, blah. Don't worry about any of that right now. If she wants to push things legally, so be it. Don't mention any of this to her. I'm just sharing with you, in case it comes up in a post. I see a woman who retreated b/c her H had the b@lls to tell his cheating W that she wasn't wanted there as long as she was still contacting her lover. Bravo!!

You are right, she is going to work from her parents' house (like she is today). I don't want her in my house. Also, the house is in my name, mortgage in my name, she has never paid a cent to it. Unfortunately,I know she legally has a right to come here but buy her stating last night and this morning in a text that she was coming over, she was coming to talk, and that she was moving into the basement, but never actually came, I don't think she really would just show up.

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Ignore her constant calls, she just wants to verbally bash you, try to manipulate you, use her tears to make you feel sorry for her.

I did ignore her, and obviously she was calling to get me on the line and not my D. She tried saying it was to talk to my D (even though we FaceTime 30 min after her continuous calls). The hard part is when she texts asking about our D. I ignored them last night and this morning, but I don't know if I should do that. I know she is texting "tell her I love her" or "how was her day" just to get me in a convo with her.

Should I respond to her texts about our D?

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She may stay mad and hateful for quite a while, especially while she's still contacting OM. But when that affair is over, and if she's suffered enough consequences, she stands a greater chance in making a turnaround in her own mindset.

How long do you think she could carry this on for? I thought she was making changes because she wanted me, but in actuality, I think she she was scared and wanted to cake eat. She even was FaceTiming with her friends and asking me to say hi to them, telling them that we are all hanging out. Why do that if you are still contacting the OM??? Her friends don't like the fact that she had an A....and told her to stop it. So she pretends like everything is fine between us but continues to lie to them?

To be fair, I did ask her last night if she was still talking to him, which she immediately said, "yes, I told you we still talk." At least she admitted it. I don't think she is seeing him because of social distancing, bars closed, etc.

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I'm going to sit down and write my boundaries up to email her (if you guys agree it's a good idea). I will post them on here first.

No! Not yet. Hold on, and give me a few minutes to talk to you about it in the next post. Okay?

Okay, I will wait. I want to send her something today/tomorrow because I want her to know my actual stance on things b/c it hasn't really been stated. Also, I think if I can hold the line, that email that she has been writing for weeks may finally come and give me some insight on what she is thinking. My guess is, it will say I need time to think like she has been saying for weeks. But I can tell that by me telling her to leave and not come back, not to work from here, and then ignoring all calls and texts, she is starting to chase me a bit...that has to be a good thing.

Thank you so much, Sandi (and everyone)!

Originally Posted by Kto626

The hard part is when she texts asking about our D. I ignored them last night and this morning, but I don't know if I should do that. I know she is texting "tell her I love her" or "how was her day" just to get me in a convo with her. Should I respond to her texts about our D?

As ex's you'll generally only get instant communication under special circumstances--awards, illnesses, etc. You learn to live with a delay in non-essential communication. IMHO it's fine not to respond to the above. If your D felt a desire to know how your mom's day was or to tell her she loved her, that's different.

This is part of what you lose when you choose to divorce.

If you haven't read my previous post from a few minutes ago, please look at it first.

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Should I watch my D on the days my W is supposed to have her but still has to go to work?

Are you saying your W is being called to work on her usual days off, due to the current health crisis? I don't mean work from a home/house, I mean she has to go to a hospital, doctor's office, or clinic. If they are requiring her to work away from the house, then you may want to keep your child. Some fathers like to have first choice to say if they had rather keep the child. Some fathers have jobs where keeping a two-year would be next to impossible, so you can make that decision based on your flow of work, time, etc.........or stick to what you told her.

She is trying to bully you, and guilt you, telling you HAVE to help her with the child while she works. Well, like I said, that's up to you to decide about keeping the child. What I don't agree with is her trying to make you feel you HAVE to let her work from your house. Does she have some software on her home computer that she can't use on a computer at her parents house? Can she not take her home computer to her parents house? Judging by her terrible reactive behavior, I come closer to believing it is her way to slither under the door and get back home.

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I feel slightly empowered by setting my boundaries and expectations and telling her to leave and never come back until she does. I hope I feel this way tomorrow.

Men always feel empowered when they find their b@lls and stop being a doormat for their W.

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Update sincd thet w=start of this message....she just texted and daid she will be here (my house) in the morijng to talk. What do I do??????

I'm probably a little late, but whenever a WW says she wants to meet and talk.........your guard needs to be all the way up! She's just going to pull another little trick out of her bag. Hold the line! Don't get go soft. As far as you are concerned, there is nothing to talk about, until she's willing to cooperate with your terms reconciliation. Currently, I don't think that word has been mentioned, has it......"reconciliation"? If I read correctly, you were using "boundary" in connection to her coming back into the home. Don't fret, you are doing fine.

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Here is what I would send via email...let me know if I should change anything:

My Boundaries:

1. Do not contact me unless it is an emergency regarding or D. Otherwise, we will continue to FaceTime at 8pm every night.
2. Do not come into the house without speaking with me first.
3. Do not expect me to help you out financially or watching our D on your scheduled days when you have to work.

(Tgi's one is hard with her being a nurse and a essential employee. I just feel like I bailing out my W and not my D).

Okay, so I've talked to you about setting boundaries that protect your feeling, and protects your self-respect. Sometimes, it is necessary to state one of your boundaries, but if you do.......then you will have the opportunity to backup your word, b/c she will call your bluff. Boundaries should never be compromised, b/c they are based on your core values, moral/religious belief system, integrity, self-respect, etc. The things you listed above, could be compromised under the right conditions. Therefore, I wouldn't label them to her, as your personal boundaries. And my advice is don't email it. Be very careful what you send her in writing! Anyway, didn't you tell her verbally what you've listed above? If not, you'll get your chance.

Another word of caution is don't push these terms down her throat. Once you tell her what they are, don't continue to repeat them, write them, etc. If she tries to coax or threaten you into letting her back in the home, just say, "You know where I stand on it, and it hasn't changed". Here's the thing, when she ends her affair (for real) and starts working on her heart, she'll go to you and ask what will it take to make things work, or to let her come home. That's when you discuss your terms to reconcile. Currently, she's an angry, willful, manipulative, wayward W, with a huge sense of entitlement. She is not hearing with her heart right now, b/c she still believes she slither under the door, if not break down the front door and march in like she's the Queen of Sheba! The WW thinks her H is a fool, and that she can make him do anything she wants. You have to prove her wrong, by strongly holding the line.

Again, I don't want to cause confusion, just trying to clarify. Let me give you an example, concerning her contacting OM. I'm assuming you will not live in a marriage with three people......or an open M, however you want to refer to it. If it's necessary to say it out loud to her, then you would not tell her what she had to do. (That comes later when she wants to know what it will take to make things work. Then you give her your terms/conditions to reconcile.) However, if stating your personal boundary, you are telling her what you won't do. You won't live in an open marriage, or live with her while she continues to contact OM. If she continues to contact OM, then you will prepare to separate or divorce. She can decide to honor or dishonor your personal boundary. That's her choice. If she doesn't honor it, then the next move is yours. You don't continue discussing your boundary with her time after time. You backup your word by taking some action that removes one of you from the living together in a marriage.

I know all this is a lot, and I don't want to confuse things more. Just trying to separate or explain some terminology on the board.

Alright, so you may not have used those exact words in my example, but you did find out that she's in fact, still involved with OM. So, you took a stand by telling her you did not want to live with her, and did not want her coming to the home to spend time working or otherwise. She is going to use (as you've already seen) threats, anger, guilt, the baby, a pity-party, force, etc. to make you cave. This is what WW's do! They are use to being in charge over the H, and don't like it when he starts standing up and showing his backbone. Well, she'll have to deal with it.......and dealing with the consequences of her wayward actions is EXACTLY what she has to experience to get her senses rattled and wake her up to her reality, and see that she was in nothing more than a fantasy.

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It sounds like her PA has turned into an EA, while simultaneously trying to get back in the house as much as possible. She is still talking to him and it is difficult for her to see him...PA to EA. But that could flip quick when bars open agan.

Just b/c they might not be able to get to each other to have skin on skin sex, doesn't mean it switches back to an EA, then a PA again. Your head will play tricks on you, if you start using that measuring stick. Her affair continues........end of story.

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Then she said, " this was supposed to be about our D and you made it about you." She is referring to helping me by coming by the house after work. And by me stating my boundaries (NC with the OM, MC, etc), she says I'm making it about me. Early, during the fight, I told her I don't want her help and I don't want her in the house ever again.

See how she tries to twist things around, play her favorite cards, throw a couple of breadcrumbs? No, she's lying, and still cheating. Expect more lies and means of manipulation.

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Again, I don't want to cause confusion, just trying to clarify. Let me give you an example, concerning her contacting OM. I'm assuming you will not live in a marriage with three people......or an open M, however you want to refer to it. If it's necessary to say it out loud to her, then you would not tell her what she had to do. (That comes later when she wants to know what it will take to make things work. Then you give her your terms/conditions to reconcile.)

So this is the only thing I should continue to say to her until she is willing to reconcile? I won't mention not contacting me throughout the day? Just stick to not being in a 3 person marriage?

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Should I watch my D on the days my W is supposed to have her but still has to go to work?

Are you saying your W is being called to work on her usual days off, due to the current health crisis? I don't mean work from a home/house, I mean she has to go to a hospital, doctor's office, or clinic. If they are requiring her to work away from the house, then you may want to keep your child. Some fathers like to have first choice to say if they had rather keep the child. Some fathers have jobs where keeping a two-year would be next to impossible, so you can make that decision based on your flow of work, time, etc.........or stick to what you told her.

My W works M-F but has been having some days at home to the virtual appointments. I will tell her if she is working at home (her parent's house) she will be responsible for our D on the days she is to have her. If she has to go to the office, then I will help out but I will switch days with her so I can have a break too. I love my D but I need to GAL and live.

First. WOW, REALLY FKN GREAT JOB! I'm impressed!

Keep listening to Sandi, just incredibly good advice for you atm.

In regards to "If she has to go to the office, then I will help out":
Be every clear on your terms here. I did the mistake of allowing too much manipulation here.
Definitely not helping her out any more. Not until I get some help in return.
Not to such a bad deal since I got more time with my D's, but it is not good DB to help out too much.
I would consider adding to your "helping out terms" that you will only be helping because of "essential job" during Corona.

Sandi, u mind giving my thread a visit?

(begs)

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Not to such a bad deal since I got more time with my D's, but it is not good DB to help out too much.
I would consider adding to your "helping out terms" that you will only be helping because of "essential job" during Corona.

Excellent point, Mumin. I feel like I am helping and bailing her out all the time. I realize I have a job that allows me to be free more (I am a teacher), but I continue to feel like she wants me to help with our D by taking her on days she is to have her (per our schedule) and therefore I am helping her and not my D. We are to be 50/50 and its more like 80/20 right now.

I will make sure I say this arraingment of me helping when she goes to the office is ony during the Corana issue.

Sandi, quick question. I was reading over your WW threads and saw that you tried to get your LBH to go to MC with you, in which he declined. Are you saying that I should be doing that? My W agreed to go to MC for 3 straight weeks at the beginning of this, however, the board kept telling me to stop since she was in contact with the AP.

With her still in contact, but not seeing the AP, should I suggest we go back? She would probably say yes. But I don't know if it is worth it right now. What are your thoughts?

Another day of solid 180 following for me. She texted multiple times this morning which I ignored. Then this afternoon she texted asking our D was. I waited 45 min and texted "she's good" and there was no other correspondence. Honestly, knowing my W, she will now ignore me because that is what I have been doing. She is always trying to manipulate me/situations.

She FaceTimes in an hour so we will see what she tried to pull. Thanks, again.

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So this is the only thing I should continue to say to her until she is willing to reconcile? I won't mention not contacting me throughout the day? Just stick to not being in a 3 person marriage?

Okay, let's back up, and start over, b/c the confusion is getting worse. I apologize. I'm trying to put too much at one time in and writing too long posts. I'm sure my writing style would have anyone's head spinning by now.

Let's start over here: Since you haven't verbally told her these 3 things listed, then go ahead and email it. This is where you currently stand with her contacting you, coming to your home, and/or wanting help financially or otherwise. I see your point in calling them "boundaries". In the viewpoint, I can agree.

At some point in time, you might see where you need to revise that list, where she contacts you or if there was an emergency........I mean, with this scary virus, you don't know. But for now, this is where you stand on those these 3 subjects.

I just want to explain that those 3 three things on the list, are not a prerequisite for reconciliation. Those 3 things are not moral issues standing in the way of this marriage reconciling. I'm not telling you it is wrong to email her the list. I am in favor of everything you've said on the list.

**************************************************************************************

She is not even ready to calmly and humbly talk about reconciling. She's not even remorseful. So, I wouldn't even bring up the subject of reconciling. You've also verbally told her she would have to go NC with OM (however you said it). Right? It is a moral issue, with life long consequences. Perhaps it is a religious based issue for you, as well. Either way, there has been a serious breach of trust and if her actions continue, the MR will be in ruins. Whether or not you can forgive her is not the first determining factor when considering a reconciliation. The first determining factor, IMHO, will be her actions. Will she cease her immoral conduct, or will she continue down that path? Whichever way she chooses, you know you will never revise or compromise this particular, life long boundary on this one issue, b/c of your own moral values. Does this make sense?

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You've also verbally told her she would have to go NC with OM (however you said it). Right? It is a moral issue,

I have told it is unacceptable for me to have contact with him. I have said that from the beginning. Then with the health scare, I let her in to hang out a bit as a family since that is al in our social bubble and all. But after she told me last night she was still in contact, I told her to leave.

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The first determining factor, IMHO, will be her actions. Will she cease her immoral conduct, or will she continue down that path? Whichever way she chooses, you know you will never revise or compromise this particular, life long boundary on this one issue, b/c of your own moral values. Does this make sense?

It makes total sense. But it goes back to my question above, should I ask to go to MC again? She was more open there than anywhere else. The therapist holds her accountable and states over and over she needs to end the A However, after advice on the board and going with her 3 times after BD, I said I wouldn't go with her anymore.

If she is still seeing/in contact with OM and you are not letting her in the house, why would you go to MC?
Is this you being hopeful?

Yes, Mumin. I guess it's me being hopeful. Also, o read in Sandi's previous post that she wanted to go to MC with her LBH but I guess we are in different roles. She was the WW asking the LBH, not the other way around.

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Sandi, quick question. I was reading over your WW threads and saw that you tried to get your LBH to go to MC with you, in which he declined. Are you saying that I should be doing that? My W agreed to go to MC for 3 straight weeks at the beginning of this, however, the board kept telling me to stop since she was in contact with the AP.

IMHO, MC will not be successful as long as she is contacting OM. You seem to want to distinguish her "seeing" OM from her "contacting" him. Here's the problem. Affairs of any type are addictive, so whenever OM contacts her she gets a significant buzz from it. She wants more & more contact, and if she can't be with him physically, she'll take whatever contact she can get. If they stopped seeing each other physically, she would still be just as addicted through hearing his voice over the phone, reading emails, camera shots, etc. It's crazy! If you're trying to sooth some of your pain by saying they are forced apart due to the virus situation and she's not actually seeing him.......you are fooling yourself. Nothing has changed in her feelings for him, and the affair continues on.

At various times, we have actually had a couple other WW's on the board, to admit they went to MC. However, they were still contacting their OM at the time, so the MC was unsuccessful. It's the wayward mindset, the addiction to the affair, and her not seriously caring to save her M...... that causes the barrier in MC. It's not enough just for her agree to MC after she's gone NC, she has to actually cooperate in attending, and to participate. Yes, MC can be one of your terms in reconciling, but don't plan attending before she's gets through the major withdrawals. Don't wait on her to say when to go or to find the MC, b/c you will be driving that vehicle, and when time comes, I'll tell you more about it.

To answer your question about my sitch, yes I asked my H to attend MC with me, and he did refuse without batting an eye. Here's the thing, I was the WW, but I had found the DB board and was receiving very wise mentoring. Back then, the board members could email each other, so I was getting more advice than it may appear at surface level. I was the one receiving the tools, not my H. He is extremely private, so I wasn't surprised. As the betrayed H, he had the right to refuse. He had made the comment that he had done nothing wrong, so that pretty much speaks for itself. Like I've told you, the wayward spouse is in no position to make demands of the betrayed spouse. It's up to the LBS to call the shots.

BTW, I want to add something else about MC. I am astonished at the lack of knowledge some of them have about the mindset of WW's. That's one reason I am always cautioning the LBH about his selection, b/c a bad MC can be worse than never seeing one, IMHO. There are some bad ones out there, as well as IC's.

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She texted multiple times this morning which I ignored. Then this afternoon she texted asking our D was. I waited 45 min and texted "she's good" and there was no other correspondence. Honestly, knowing my W, she will now ignore me because that is what I have been doing. She is always trying to manipulate me/situations.

Yep, and IMHO, the whole thing about asking how their child is, when in the care of the other parent........is usually not as sincere as a normal person would assume. I mean, she has ulterior motives. Unless the child has been ill, why all of a sudden does she become such a devoted, concerned mother? Does she not trust you to take proper care of D2? She should have thought about that when she chose to engage in an affair. No, I'm not suggesting you punish her by withholding contact with her child, I'm just pointing out a tragic, but common truth in WW's. They love their kids, but they're not top priority when WW is in an affair, and the WW will use kids as pawns, if need be.

I'll talk to you tomorrow. ((hugs))

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It's not enough just for her agree to MC after she's gone NC, she has to actually cooperate in attending, and to participate.

Honestly, we went to MC 3 times after the BD and it went like this:
1st time-i was emotional, sad, begging, etc. She said sorry and that was about it.

2nd-time I was incredibly angry and attacked her. She shut down and said, "what's the point of coming?" The therapist intervened and said I am allowed these feelings and it was good to get them out. During this session I sai I will not accept her still seeing the OM. The therapist asked her to come back to the following session with a decision.

3rd time-I was quiet but civil. She spoke much more, owning her behaviors and saying they were wrong. However, she also said "she didn't want pressure from either guy right now so she could figure herself out. That she could lose either guy by next week so it was important to focus on herself." the therapist asked her if she was still seeing the other guy, which she said, "I am still talking to him." I immediately turned to the therapist and asked why I would start to come. He decided to book a 4th appointment but asked us to skip a week so I could think about if I should come back. Listening to this board, I decided to end MC (and started seeing the same therapist as my IC).

By the end of the 3rd session, I do feel like there was progress. My W will be more open and honest in MC than she will be with me. Mainly, that is due to her becoming so angry and defensive anytime she feels cornered (which is probably all the time with the guilt she has). That is why oi thought it might be good to go back. But I guess I am grasping for straws.

Struggling today. The day just started and I am feeling adult deprived! I have been social distancing with my 3 year D for 5 straight days. My W was here the first 2 days and it felt good. Then I kicked her out after saying she was in contact with the OM.

It is so hard to be the only adult in my house. Having my D so much makes it impossible to see other people...even outside. My D has an autoimmune deficiency so we have to keep her from everyone. I am used to having my best friend (W) here to talk to. I realize she isn't my best friend anymore, but she is still friendly as long as we don't talk about the A.

It makes me want to reach out to my W and ask her to hang here as a family for a few hours. I know you would advise against it, and so far I haven't even spoken to her since I kicked her out. But if this goes on for weeks or months I don't know if I can make it.

Would it be detrimental to allow her to hangout her during the day, go home at night? She has her parents (who she lives with) to speak to. I have no one.

I would say now what be a great time for you to learn to be alone and love yourself. Think about what kind of future you want for you and your daughter.

Originally Posted by LH19

I would say now what be a great time for you to learn to be alone and love yourself. Think about what kind of future you want for you and your daughter.

This!

DO NOT call her!
Enjoy time with your daughter! Go outside, play and hav efun during the day. Work some at night if you can and "socialize" with your daughter.
Call a relative/friend instead of W?? Just to talk a bit.
Also, (at least where I live) there are some phone numbers you can call just to talk. Most have a fee but some don't.
Use a similar service if you get high anxiety and just really need to talk to someone.

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I would say now what be a great time for you to learn to be alone and love yourself. Think about what kind of future you want for you and your daughter.

Normally, I would agree. However, I can't take my D anywhere. No playground. No fun things to take her to. No stores...nothing. Just us...in the house trying to keep a 3 year old busy. I am starting to go crazy.

Again this is is a great time to practice being alone with her.

I hear what you are saying LH19. But I might cave in due to the Corona scare and social distancing. This will be going through the next week 3 weeks at the least.

I tell my W she may come over. She may hang here but leave every day/night. And I want to say, stop contacting the OM while here (or even better, through this social distancing process). I know you will disagree but I can't do this alone every day. Not going anywhere and being with a 3-year-old the entire time is taking its toll. I can't GAL, I can't do anything.

What is the worst that will happen? I delay the process of LRT for a couple of weeks? I am assuming the LRT has never had these issues with social distancing being part of the equation. My W has shown she wants back in; isn't there value in using time where she can't see the OM and spending time as a family? If I can remain civil and confident, don't I want to show her those things?

My friend said the other day that things happen for a reason. So after BD, being forced to stay within your social bubble and spending time together may be beneficial, no? Not to mention, if I was feeling the opposite and wanted to file for D, I couldn't even do it. They have closed all courts! I am stuck in purgatory so instead of just sitting here stalling, feeling even more depressed because I can't GAL or keep me busy by living and seeing friends, why wouldn't I try to be with my W to see what happens?

I appreciate what LH19 is saying. But I will never have to be alone with my daughter for weeks on end in any situation other than this So to say learn to be alone isn't exactly reality.

I will not ask my W any of this until I hear from you guys. I am speaking with my IC today so I will see what he has to say and compare it to what you guys think.

Thanks, again!

Kto,
I have a daughter almost the same age. Between all the fun and joy, the caretaking can wear you down. After BD, I had quite a few days alone with both my kids and it was an amazing experience. The pain of BD was horrendous however I'll never forget that time alone with the kids.

Another perspective here....you are not allowing the W you know in to your house. It's almost someone else. A case of the body snatchers. Now, I bring this up for your D3. Think about how your W is treating you and what D3 will think is normal in a marriage, how to treat you or how to treat men. If your W can be normal and respectful then maybe it'll be ok. If you both will put up a bad example, it may not be worth it. Personally I wish my W left the house during my sitch. My D4 is picking up alot of distancing, avoidant and dont talk to dad behaviors and I hate my W for this. My relationship with D4 suffers because of my wifes selfishness.

Core, my W was able to be polite, kind, and family oriented when she was here the other day. It want until I told her she needs to go NC with the OM that she blew up. I just wondering if I should put that aside to get through this isolation period.

Mumin and LH19, I normally would agree but no adult interaction is killing me. Keeping my D3 busy is hard. I've been the primary caregiver since she was born but I would have opportunities to live by spending time with friends. That has all stopped. It's just becoming overwhelming supporting my D while I'm struggling and have no outlets.

Originally Posted by kto626

I tell my W she may come over. She may hang here but leave every day/night. And I want to say, stop contacting the OM while here (or even better, through this social distancing process).

KTO, I am a former subscriber to a group who touted the saying "Pain is weakness leaving the body". Be disciplined, be mentally strong, be positive. Your W has shown that she wants back in? No, she has in fact shown the complete opposite and you are choosing to not see things as they really are. This is why detachment is recommended. Find a new show, new book, new cooking hobby, clean the house, clean your car, organize everything, write down your thoughts, play a game.

Your W is cake eating like crazy and you sir are the baker. You are looking for reasons to do what you know you shouldn't. You act like your W is the only adult you know therefore you must pursue. C'mon... Call an adult you know and talk if you need adult interaction so badly.

The reason you don't like the things that are happening is because of your own inner dialogue about what is going on.

"It is not things that trouble us, but our judgments about things"...

Hi Kto626,

In most situations, there's more than one good way to handle them. Your plan to have your wife over during daytimes because you're lonely seems clearly bad--if you count up how many responses you've gotten "pro" vs. "con" the consensus here is clearly against it. It comes from a place of emotional weakness ("Can't handle being alone.."), it undermines the boundary you just set, and it doesn't give her a chance to miss you.

You would be shooting yourself in the foot.

Originally Posted by kto626

The day just started and I am feeling adult deprived!

If you can lean into the pain, you'll become a stronger, happier kto626 with better chances of reconciling. Most of us have been in *exactly* this situation. We can help. I went through the same struggle just over a month ago. My ex had a strong social circle and I literally had zero friends to call or talk to. In just over a month alone I was leading two weekly hikes with 6-10' social distance, my last Facebook post got 9 comments, and I have a friend I talk to for 30-60 minutes every couple days. I also no longer dread an evening alone and enjoy the freedom and have resurrected my guitar.

Zoom and other remote sessions with friends are becoming popular. An acquaintance is doing board games, movies, happy hour, and karaoke over webchat. My ex (reconciling!!) is doing a chat where her and her friends are all having a glass of wine together (as they used to do in restaurants) over webchat.

Many are feeling stir-crazy, so this may even be an ideal time to deepen friendships.

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By the end of the 3rd session, I do feel like there was progress. My W will be more open and honest in MC than she will be with me. Mainly, that is due to her becoming so angry and defensive anytime she feels cornered (which is probably all the time with the guilt she has). That is why oi thought it might be good to go back. But I guess I am grasping for straws.

I repeat, do NOT try to get her to see MC before she goes NC with OM and is asking you about reconciling.

You are grasping at straws b/c you want MC to "fix" your W's waywardness. It won't, IMHO.

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It is so hard to be the only adult in my house.

I'll tell you the same thing some You Tubers were saying about Prince Harry, "Suck it up, Buttercup".

Seriously, it is a little hard for me to feel sorry for the millennial generation being stuck at home, b/c they still have electricity, running water, indoor plumbing, heat/air, and all their technology devices to keep them entertained.

Once you go without all these luxuries for two or three weeks straight, and you can't get outside to drive around or to get food..................yeah, just saying.

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I am used to having my best friend (W) here to talk to. I realize she isn't my best friend anymore, but she is still friendly as long as we don't talk about the A.

This thinking will cause you to go all melty-man, and you'll break all those "boundaries" you wanted to email her.

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It makes me want to reach out to my W and ask her to hang here as a family for a few hours. I know you would advise against it, and so far I haven't even spoken to her since I kicked her out. But if this goes on for weeks or months I don't know if I can make it.

Would it be detrimental to allow her to hangout her during the day, go home at night? She has her parents (who she lives with) to speak to. I have no one.

(SMACK!!!) Snap out of it! You'll never back up your own word on where you stand, thinking like this! Now, stop throwing yourself a pity party, and start working out, turn on some rock & roll, and dance with your little girl.

Okay, I'm going to hold strong! I'm not going to ask her to come by. I like the line CWarrior said, you are not giving her a chance to miss me. I realize that isn't the primary reason to detach but it's hard to detach for myself when I can't go out and have a life. So at the very least, not allowing her here, not contacting her, it may start to make her miss me. Maybe it won't but until I am able to keep myself busy (not coloring or playing hide-and-seek with my D3), then I'm constantly reminded on how I'm lonely and doing this alone.

I am going to have to see my W today so she can watch my D for an hour to help out while I have an appointment (insert eye roll on her helping out). I'm not going to say anything.

I will continue to post to update and seek support in troubled times. Thank you all!!!

Atta boy!

There a lot of things you can do at home to GAL...

- Read books to grow yourself, learn about healthy relationships
- Watch movies / YouTube videos
- Learn to meditate and relax your mind and body
- Self reflect on yourself - focus on the positives too, gain your confidence back
- Home exercise... push ups, sit ups
- Home projects, or clean out closets / drawers

Write yourself a To-Do list and check them off

Yay Kto626! You've actually been incredibly strong throughout this. Props.

Here is a question....after reading some other sites that talk about how the first step in my process is to get her back in the house to be able to work on the M. That being separated it makes it that much harder to reconcile.

Is it harder to R being separated or having my W in the home? She isn't coming in until she ends contact with the OM. That is my firm line. But waiting for a while after for MC and all seems counter-intuitive.

I am not even there yet but hearing to get her back in the house first just made me think.

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Here is a question....after reading some other sites that talk about how the first step in my process is to get her back in the house to be able to work on the M. That being separated it makes it that much harder to reconcile.

OMG! Stay off other sites. You can search around the Internet and stumble upon an answer you may like. My guess is that's exactly what you've been doing, b/c you didn't like the advice you were getting here. You don't have to follow the advice from us, but why read their stuff and then ask us about it?

If she were in the house right now, she would promptly announce that you would stay in separate bedrooms, b/c she did it last time she came home. She said, "take it a day at a time", and that is WW code which really means in-house separation. If there is one thing worse than being physically separated.....it is "in-house separation". In-house is the epitome of cake eating for the WW. IMHO, it's the worse move you could possibly make after telling her to leave due to contacting OM! She would never respect any boundaries after backing down. She would smear her affair in your face and feed you sh't sandwiches every day. Is it harder? You better believe it is. I may have already said this, but I've been here thirteen years this summer, and I have never seen a successful "in-house" separation that led to reconciliation. However, I have seen many couples (WW situations) reconcile after having physical separation. Of course, the WW had to end the A and go NC with OM, before moving back home, but it worked b/c she had space and time, and he enforced his boundaries......which led to their reconciliation. Know how the LBHS describe in-house separation? Soul sucking.

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I am not even there yet but hearing to get her back in the house first just made me think.

You didn't have to hear it, b/c you've been thinking about it since she left and you your temper had time to cool down. Now you are lonesome and want her there.

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She isn't coming in until she ends contact with the OM. That is my firm line. But waiting for a while after for MC and all seems counter-intuitive.

You are still hung up on the MC?? My suggestion was to strongly consider MC as one of your terms for reconciling. IMHO, it is better to get her agreement before she moves back home......or she'll probably not attend if she comes home without agreeing to your terms. As long as she ends contact with OM and agrees to transparency, she can come back home.......if you are okay with it. I was trying to give you a plan to help you prevent mistakes other LBH's made. Forget the MC, if you are so confused about it. One minute you are wanting her to go, so the MC will fix what's broken, and the next minute you are saying it is counter-intuitive. I've talked till I'm blue in the face, and you're still twisted. You're allowing your emotions to dictate your actions. First, you got angry she was still contacting OM and you kicked her out. You were hot and ready to email her a list of boundaries. Remember? Today, you are bored and lonesome and even considered going over to her parents, where she is staying.

I think I just need to back off a couple of days, b/c I feel you are misunderstanding too much of what I say. That's not your fault, it's mine. So, I'll back off and maybe some of the men can get through to you.

K,

I put it plain and simple for you. There is absolutely nothing you can do to move your situation in a positive direction while she is in contact with OM. Go read OS2�s thread and see what happened when he let his wife come home against the advice of the board.

So true LH!
Kto did you read OS threads? all of it?

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OMG! Stay off other sites. You can search around the Internet and stumble upon an answer you may like. My guess is that's exactly what you've been doing, b/c you didn't like the advice you were getting here.

Honestly, I was searching around before I found this site. It has been something that has stuck with me finding a few weeks ago.

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If she were in the house right now, she would promptly announce that you would stay in separate bedrooms, b/c she did it last time she came home.

You are right but then she moved into the MBR because she "was wrong and was emotional". Now I know why she was emotional...b/c she was in an A.

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You didn't have to hear it, b/c you've been thinking about it since she left and you your temper had time to cool down. Now you are lonesome and want her there.

Of course, I am. I lost my life and family. Now I sit at home, every day, all day, taking care of a 3-year-old while trying to work and detach. These circumstances make it so I can't keep my mind off it. My house was a tomb, it is a tomb. I see her everywhere and I can't escape it.

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You are still hung up on the MC?? My suggestion was to strongly consider MC as one of your terms for reconciling. IMHO, it is better to get her agreement before she moves back home......or she'll probably not attend if she comes home without agreeing to your terms.

I am only hung up on this because it is where she is most honest (and held accountable). I did ask my therapist yesterday (who has been our MC), and he agreed with you, Sandi. Actually, he agreed with everything you have said. Everything. He told me to keep listening to you. He said no MC until we are much further rin this process (if we even get there). He said he thinks there have been good signs. For instance, trying to get in the house shows she has some love for me. That if she has lost the love she would be on with her life. But y trying to get back in shows she thinks about coming back. Although she is still a WW, she is thinking about the future without me. She just ins;t thinking rationally about it yet.

I do think, however, she will go to MC anytime I ask. I just won't ask until reconciling.

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I've talked till I'm blue in the face, and you're still twisted. You're allowing your emotions to dictate your actions. First, you got angry she was still contacting OM and you kicked her out. You were hot and ready to email her a list of boundaries. Remember? Today, you are bored and lonesome and even considered going over to her parents, where she is staying.

You are right. I am acting on emotions. I need to stop but it is hard. I am an emotional perosn...which has served me well in somethings in my life. But not this.

And I was going to her parent's house just to drop off my D...which didn't happen anyways.

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I think I just need to back off a couple of days, b/c I feel you are misunderstanding too much of what I say. That's not your fault, it's mine. So, I'll back off and maybe some of the men can get through to you.

I am not misunderstanding I am posting based on my emotions. Luckily, I am not acting on those emotions because all of you talk me off the ledge. All of your advice is invaluable. I am posting my irrational emotions because I look for your sound advice. All of you have made me stronger...I am just not strong yet. It is a process for me and I can't thank you all enough for your support. And I promise I will stay off of other sites :-)

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There is absolutely nothing you can do to move your situation in a positive direction while she is in contact with OM.

That is a good way to think about it. I am a fixer. But I can't fix this.

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Kto did you read OS threads? all of it?

I have read most of it. I feel for that guy. I also need to learn from him. I will finish his thread today.

First, thank you for all of your help. I know it seems like I am not taking your advice but in fact, I am. I have not acted on ANYTHING without coming here first. Being who I am, I analyze everything and hope that I will hear what I want to hear from you. Obviously, I know what I need to do. I just need to do it. And to an extent, I am by following your advice.

Last night, my W FaceTimed with my D. Earlier that day, we texted about logistics for the following day (today) and how I would drop my D off with her in the morning. During FaceTime last night, my W said to my D "I will pick you up after work" at which point I interrupted and said, "I thought it was the morning?, I need to work tomorrow.". She immediately blew up and said, "you think I have a choice to work, what do you want me to do." Against all of the advice, I argued for a minute about having to communicate. She is to have my D today and intentionally didn't tell me to get me angry. This is how she is getting back at me for kicking her out 3 days ago and going silent. Manipulate Manipulate. Manipulate. She has been telling me she was working from home this week. I made the decision that when she works from home (parents house), and she is scheduled to have my D, she takes her. When she has to go to the office, I will help her. So by telling me that she was working from home this week, and then changing the plans at 8:30 last night without telling me, she did it to get back at me for kicking her out.

After arguing for a minute on FaceTime, I hung up on her because she was starting to yell (which by the way she started yelling about "having to work" while talking to my daughter...I quickly grabbed the phone and said stop yelling in front of our D). After the call, I did text after explaining that I have to bring my D to the high school where I work because I am required to go in to get materials. She didn't like that because of Corona.

For the past two weeks, my school (all schools) have been closed. They announced yesterday they will now be closed until May 7th. Due to that, they are ramping up online learning and the way it's looking it will unfold, my job will be harder than ever before. Online chat rooms, live video lessons, etc. How the heck am I going to do that while watching a 3-year-old by myself? It is stressing me out. 3-year-olds are not independent in any way and my W just assumes I will take care of her every day. I know she doesn't have a choice but I can't lose my job. When I explained this briefly in a text after the FaceTime argument, she said: "we will have to come up with a better plan." I guarantee her plan is to work from my house to help. I know it isn't recommended, aI know it isn't smart, but how am I going to be on camera for 4-6 hours a day, talking to students, parents, etc, while doing this by myself. This is going to get harder....

I don't want to have her work from my house. I want her back only when she stops being wayward. But these times are very difficult with everything that is happening and the experts say get ready for this to carry on through the summer. I cannot be a full-time employee and a full-time dad at the same time. I get 5-minute spurts to get something done. Not 4-6 hours.

Sorry, that was my vent after a brief argument with her and the fact she totally set me up today.

K,

To me that is a legitimate reason to have her back home. Truthfully her at her parents or back home doesn�t really matter. If she�s wayward she�s wayward and nothing changes.

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To me that is a legitimate reason to have her back home. Truthfully her at her parents or back home doesn�t really matter. If she�s wayward she�s wayward and nothing changes.

I know it isn't ideal but losing my job is a lot worse. I am holding out as long as I can...

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Online chat rooms, live video lessons, etc. How the heck am I going to do that while watching a 3-year-old by myself?

I don't believe a 3 year old needs constant attention throughout the day. Put em in a playpen and do what you have to do.

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I cannot be a full-time employee and a full-time dad at the same time.

That is the story that you are telling yourself. If your W died tomorrow, could you do it then?

You've been fishing for an excuse and now you've got the perfect one. I wish you the best.

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I don't believe a 3 year old needs constant attention throughout the day. Put em in a playpen and do what you have to do.

Playpen? Seriously? She is 3, not 1. She walks, talks, yells, screams, poops, pees, eats, etc. Playpen and do my thing for 4-6 hours? That is not even close to realistic. That is just out of touch from reality.

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That is the story that you are telling yourself. If your W died tomorrow, could you do it then?

You've been fishing for an excuse and now you've got the perfect one. I wish you the best.

Again, not realistic. If my W died, I would have help from family, friends, daycare, etc. Instead, I am alone with her with no help due to social distancing. To think I am just making an excuse is ridiculous. My guess is you never had to teach online classes during the school day while raising a 3-year-old at the same time.

Listen, I know it seems like I making excuses but I am sure most of you aren't required to have 46 minutes periods teaching online all school day with no help while a 3-year-old needs her bum wiped, book read to her, feed her, and meet her every need. I'll just tell my boss that I have imprisoned my D in a playpen for 6 hours while she screams in the background so my students think I am torturing my child. Makes total sense.

Haha "imprisoned" and "tortured"? Not even close and if you think so then you are out of touch with reality.

You should teach the kid how to wipe its own butt and entertain itself with toys or books or activities while you work but you think the only "realistic" path is to hover over them all day long...OK. Teaching independence is not absentee parenting, creating dependence is not the goal of parenting. This is why millennials can't get off their parents' tit!

I see you are resigned to this path, with no other possibilities.

As I said, you have no idea. 3 year old to be independent for 6 hours??? Totally out of touch.

I appreciate your explanation. FWIW, I was getting stressed, too, and that's why I thought I may need to step back. Anyway, I'll try to keep my posts shorter and to the point, if I can. I have lengthy post syndrome.

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I guarantee her plan is to work from my house to help. I know it isn't recommended, aI know it isn't smart, but how am I going to be on camera for 4-6 hours a day, talking to students, parents, etc, while doing this by myself. This is going to get harder....

Okay, gottcha. It's a tough spot, and a tough call. You have to consider your job, and the health of your child.......which, I think, you are doing. The way you were previously talking, I was concerned there was over-lapping in you desire to just get W back into the home any way you could, and having her there to help you with D3. I don't recommend she sleeps there. She's there to work or keep D3 while you work......whatever work arrangements you decide.

I said constant attention not complete independence. You are the one who can be independent if you choose.

Originally Posted by kto626

I cannot be a full-time employee and a full-time dad at the same time. I get 5-minute spurts to get something done. Not 4-6 hours.

Hi Kto626,

I hear you. Since this choice isn't ideal for reconciliation I wanted to share some ideas--

"Remote learning" for public schools around me hasn't come close to 4-6hrs/day of live teacher video--closer to 30-45min/day. Even those attempts were halted due to technical and privacy challenges and I live in a very technological area. Are you currently required to do 4-6hrs of online video per day or that's a prediction? If it's a prediction, maybe you can wait to act until implementation gets closer.

I vaguely remember 3 years old. It's amazingly exciting and challenging. Can you plop him in front of a Leappad or similar educational play device for two 1hr sessions/day without feeling like the worst parent ever? I taught at a co-op when my son was 2-3, and at home he was occupied for a bit if I gave him clay or waterplay containers! Yes, I'd have to be prepared to change his clothes afterwards, lol.

My kids are older now, but I do 2-3hrs of live video per day. While your "space" is still expected to look professional, these days even CEOs have young children wandering in the background. I know an Ivy-league professor whose elementary school child attends her classes on dinosaurs and sometimes chimes in! Maybe small parts of your lessons could be fashioned to entertain or be taught by a young child.

Maybe none of these work. Just ideas. Peace!

Just to add a data point.
My kids, 3 and 5, definitely watch TV(netflix,youtube, public TV) ~2 hrs per day.
Some days less, some days twice as much.
I know it it not ideal but I realized all those demands you put in yourself as a parent these days are counter-productive.

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"Remote learning" for public schools around me hasn't come close to 4-6hrs/day of live teacher video--closer to 30-45min/day.

I do not know yet what the requirement will be, however, the email from my principal said to be prepared for 4-6 hours online for students and parents, which include online teaching to your classes. I hope to now more this weekend.

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Can you plop him in front of a Leappad or similar educational play device for two 1hr sessions/day without feeling like the worst parent ever? I taught at a co-op when my son was 2-3, and at home he was occupied for a bit if I gave him clay or waterplay containers! Yes, I'd have to be prepared to change his clothes afterwards, lol.

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I agree to find different activities for my D. I don't want to plop her in front of TV unless I have to. She is an amazing kid, but she is 3, so it can be a lot at times. But I am trying to embrace it because she won't be 3 forever.

My kids are older now, but I do 2-3hrs of live video per day. While your "space" is still expected to look professional, these days even CEOs have young children wandering in the background. I know an Ivy-league professor whose elementary school child attends her classes on dinosaurs and sometimes chimes in! Maybe small parts of your lessons could be fashioned to entertain or be taught by a young child.

Also a great idea. Thank you CW, you are offering sound, thoughtful suggestions. Everyone must understand that through this difficult and unusual time things may be a little different for work expectations.

I had a little argument again with my W regarding the parenting schedule. She continues to ask me to take my D on her scheduled days due to daycare being closed and she has to work. I know I need to help, as my W is a nurse. I am at home(even though work is going to ramp up next week), and my W is trying to keep my D from being around people which leaves me to take her. I just asked my W to understand my work will get more difficult and will need some help, in which she became so angry and defensive about how stressed she is. At one point, she said, "I have to work, you have to take her, what are you going to do if I don't take her, file papers?" I replied, "sure if I have to." My wife said, "I am sure you have figured all that out already."

After that, she became angrier and began crying. I stood my ground. I said "you did this and marriage is between 2 people and not 3. I will not accept you talking to him and this will come to an end of you don't" (was that wrong to say?). I told her "I have too much self-respect for myself to live like this and you continue to ask me to help, give you money and I won't do that." She argued the money front and then I aid, "go ask your BF for your money...(I know, I shouldn't have said it).

She left in tears. I know I shouldn't have said some of the things I said, but I am angry and sad about it all. I will ot let her walk all over me like this.

Later, in good social distancing protocol, I had a bonfire outside with my friend and his wife while staying away from each other. They both talked up my importance and how I am a good catch, etc. I needed it tonight, They told me I would be okay, that I will make it through. I need that reassurance b/c I don't always believe it. I just don't understand my W and how she could be so hurtful, still. Her selfishness, her ability to blame and attack me, and her want to have me support her financially while still talking to this guy.

Thank you to Sandi, CWarrior, and Mumin. You guys are so helpful and I will never forget it. I believe in good karma and you all deserve a whopping portion of something good!

I just finished reading OS2's threads and I see a lot of similarities. I just don't understand WW's that think they can continue to cake eat and hurt the person they married.

Yesterday, my W began crying when she started yelling at me about her work schedule and how she can't help me, even in her scheduled days. When she did this, she said "just file the papers then" which I said I would. She began to cry and said how overwhelmed she is. I'm sure being a nurse and dealing with this health scare has added to that but she had an A and she should be overwhelmed!

After reading OS2's thread, he began asking about filing for a D. I agree with Sandi and CWarrior on this, I'm not doing that yet because I'm not ready (plus I couldn't even if I wanted to b/c courts are closed due to the virus. But should I set up the paperwork to refinance her car? Currently, both of our vehicles are in my name and after BD I told her we need to figure out finances. It could be a good way to show her that I'm moving forward. To be fair, I am making her pay me for the payments, but putting it in her name may make it more real for her. Thoughts?

Again, yesterday I told her she knows what my expectations are, that marriage is between 2 ppl and not 3 so contact with the OM is unacceptable. I was firm and unemotional in saying this, also leading to some of her tears, yesterday. I figured being firm again in my expectations and then having paperwork ready for her to sign to refinance and title her vehicle in her name may confirm how serious I am (even though you all know I still have my weak moments).

K,

WWs continue cake eat mainly because the LBS typically serves in on a platter and everyone loves cake.

That�s great that you were firm and told her the being in contact with OM is unacceptable. I say that tongue and cheek because it is acceptable to you. What are the consequences for her continuing. If there are none then it�s a weak statement on your part.

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That�s great that you were firm and told her the being in contact with OM is unacceptable. I say that tongue and cheek because it is acceptable to you. What are the consequences for her continuing. If there are none then it�s a weak statement on your part.

Good question. Other than not allowing her in the house and not communicating other than anything to do with our D, I guess nothing right now. What other alternatives do I have? I don't want to divorce, it has been 2 months since BD so I think it is early and I am not there yet. I also couldn't if I wanted to due to the courts being closed.

Yesterday, when she came to pick up our D, she began to go in the house and I asked her not to, which she complied but git angry about. What else can I do?

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That�s great that you were firm and told her the being in contact with OM is unacceptable. I say that tongue and cheek because it is acceptable to you. What are the consequences for her continuing. If there are none then it�s a weak statement on your part.

Maybe giving her auto loan papers so she is forced to take on her own finances is something that I can do??? Again, she is paying me but making her put it in her name probably shows her I am taking steps to move forward without her.

K,

Look man I know this is difficult but seriously??? That�s a consequence. If you don�t stop talking to om I�ll put your car in your name.

What I�m trying to tell you and I�ll be more direct. Stop with the grandiose statements until you can back them up with something of substance. You have to get stronger first.

Like what LH??? What can I do? Tell me.

I can�t tell you that K it is up to you. My main suggestion was to just let her be instead of making idle threats.

Okay, I agree with that. Found out I can't re-title the cars anyways cuz the state has shut that down. I'm truly in limbo with nothing I can do about anything. But today, it's about me being outside on a beautiful day. That I can control. Thanks, LH.

@kto626 -

2 months after BD is still really early, and your emotions are all over the place day to day - we have all been there. You don't need to do anything drastic right now to push her along. It sounds like you want to take legal steps to shake her out of her affair fog. NC and GAL should be sufficient if you do it properly for sustained amount of time.

Use the time to get grow yourself and get your confidence back. Watch YouTube videos and read books. There are a lot of good inspirational material out there about happiness coming from within.

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2 months after BD is still really early, and your emotions are all over the place day to day - we have all been there. You don't need to do anything drastic right now to push her along. It sounds like you want to take legal steps to shake her out of her affair fog. NC and GAL should be sufficient if you do it properly for sustained amount of time.

You are absolutely right. I am all over the place because it is still sinking in. I will GAL as much as I can. Thanks, LovingIt. When I have detached and stopped chasing, she tries to swoop in and hook me back. But I am not falling for it anymore. She just came by to take the dog for a walk and I remained civil but said nothing. I know it is driving her crazy.

This morning, unprompted, I received a text from her that said, " I don't want to argue I am just beyond burnt out emotionally from all of this. I understand you are burnt out too and want me to give you answers."

First off, I didn't respond and nor have I asked for any answers over the last few weeks (I did the first month or so). However, I have learned not to ask questions. Secondly, why would she send me that? To hook me again? We did have a minor argument yesterday regarding parenting time that I am trying to manage by myself M-F. I guess it doesn't matter her intentions, but I didn't respond.

She keeps texting everyday about nothing. I'm just ignoring it.

I have a question. I guess I am looking for knowledge of WW. After radio silence, from me for days, she continues to text dumb, useless questions, every day. My W just texted me, "I am going to the grocery store, do you need me to get anything?" I can tell she still thinks about moving home. She really tried to last week by sneaking in the door under the mask of Corona fears. But why do that, then still think she can contact the OM, get the boot, then still text me if I need groceries and dumb stuff like that? Is her motive really trying to have both me and the OM? Does she really think that is acceptable?

I know this is temp checking, I know she wants her cake and eat it too, but why does she think this will still work? Why does a WW not understand that there are only 2 people in a marriage? I realize she had 3, but I didn't know, and now that I do, is she really believing it can stay that way?

And you may think I am naive, but I think she is so traumatized by what she has done and the guilt, she wanted to brush it under the rug and move forward. She can't face it. Is that normal?

Basically, why is my W leading me on, trying to contact me, offering to buy my groceries, buying her groceries and leaving them in my house (the other day), say she knows I deserve answers, but then do nothing to try to work on herself or us? And still, contact the OM?

I just don't understand how a WW would do these things and not snap out of it??? She must think I will let her cake eat...I won't.

K,

This question arises almost on a daily basis. Some WWs like to cake eat and for some its guilt. I suspect with your W it's guilt. My gut feeling is that your W does not hate you she just doesn't want to be married to you anymore and to an extent feels guilty about it. I often tell the story that me ex mulched my entire front yard a week before she moved out.

I think one of the misnomers with DB is the timeline on the fog clearing and the WW snapping out of it. My research points to a 2-3 year process at minimum.

Take the focus completely off what she is doing and work on you.

If it was guilt why if she trying to sneak through the door and move in? That doesn't make sense.

That's probably more in line with cake eating. Like in OS situation. Probably as hassle to live with her parents. What's OM situation? Is he married?

No, he is divorced. He lives in a crappy 2 bedroom apt with his cousin in a crappy part of town. Much different lifestyle than she is used to living with me. I am sure that's part of the reason she was/is cake eating.

His W cheated on him from what I have heard...years ago. My W definitely dropped some ranks too by going with him. Big, ugly dude. I don't get it. Her friends don't either. But she did it...for a year.

Yeah that probably can�t do anything because everything is closed. Probably getting tired of living with parents. Hold your ground.

kto626 I'm a little further ahead of your sitch I think and our sitchs are similar apart from you've set a lot of boundaries whereas I didn't want to get tangled up in them so didn't set any/many. NC and staying strong is so tough but I wish I'd done more of it, more validation and less getting dragged into conversation - the WW seems to be good at engaging with her H by starting on a topic that may get his attention. Whenever I sought strength to do it well, W came running back for attention. When I got enough attention I would relent/give in, talk to her and the dance would start again. I think my W had guilt too so eventually it felt like I would 'fill her up' and she could go off to OM again with less guilt. I wish I'd been harder on the whole thing.

Your W will cake eat, and she will only have romantic thoughts for one man at a time. Expect the worst. Expect her to be contacting and seeing OM regularly. Either contacting or seeing him are equally as bad at keeping her from wanting to come back to you. She has to get it out of her system and it will take time. I should have laid out my criteria for coming back to me, applied NO pressure and started NC.

In my sitch the OM is the complete opposite to me, mostly in bad ways the same as yours. I think WWs get what they are missing at home. In my case it was the empowerment of W by OM for being the leader, the one that was looked up to, the one that wore the trousers and provided care. I'm not suggesting you try and compete with the OM - not at all, but helps to understand it. Affairs are like drugs, she is an addict who will lie and cheat until she feels her plan B is disappearing and she is out of options. And even though you can't understand it she will act strangely and have bad withdrawal for a long time after. Feel free to ask me Qs because I feel I could have done a better job earlier on (although you've got plenty of great advice from the vets above).

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I think she is so traumatized by what she has done and the guilt,

Wishful thinking, KTO. She is not traumatized whatsoever! The guilt isn't eating her alive. If she feels any guilt whatsoever at this stage.....it isn't much. I know......all you H's want to think guilt is driving her to act illogically, but that's just not the case in most instances. You are the logical LBH trying to make sense of his WW actions, and you can't do it. I can spend hours trying to help a LBH understand, and he'll turn right around and ask about something I've just tried to explain. B/c he is seeing her as the old W he married, and he is too emotionally attached to her. That's why you have to emotionally detach from the drama she tries to bring. You can't rationalize crazy!

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I know she wants her cake and eat it too, but why does she think this will still work? Why does a WW not understand that there are only 2 people in a marriage?

She understands plenty. This is a wayward W choosing from her own free will. She's not contacting you out of guilt. She wants back into her own bed in her own house. It probably cramps her style staying at her parents.

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I realize she had 3, but I didn't know, and now that I do, is she really believing it can stay that way?

She thinks she is smart enough to pull it off. WW's think they are smarter than the LBH.

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My W definitely dropped some ranks too by going with him.

Classic for WW's. It's not about the OM's looks or money. It's all about how he makes her feel. And, if he stops, she'll find OM #2 or OM #3, until she has strong enough consequences to smack reality in her face. Until then, she's going to play the LBH for a fool, and use as many benefits as she can get from him.

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