Last thread.Summary - wife already filed for divorce, I am attempting a last resort. I admittedly have doubts about some of what I am doing. Particularly, how little communication there is. I had felt she was possibly softening before going more restrictive with my communication, and after nearly a week and a half, things definitely seem to have regressed IMO.
For me, initiating conversations (not relationship related) was more of a 180 as I have typically been more quiet and reserved, so a lot of this "detachment" to me, feels like doing more of the same.
Captain,
It’s not uncommon for newbies to think what they are advised is just more of the same behavior. If you were just going through marriage troubles you would be advised to pursue her and open up more. Right now your marriage is in crisis mode. Your wife has filed for divorce. That’s a strong action on her part. Something she has thought about most likely for many years. The goal is to give her time and space to think about things without pressure. This also will give you the opportunity to detach from her which will make the transition to divorce easier if she follows through with it.
Certainly if you feel starting conversations with her is making her second guess herself then absolutely continue to do so as you see fit.
Ah..if only I could read her mind and determine if it just makes her friendlier, or actually gives her second thoughts. Someone needs to make an app for that.
Haha that app would be golden!
Would probably destroy a lot of whats good in life though.
Anyway, fully agree with LH! Hang in there Captain!
I suppose if she is being friendly, it could just be her trying to be comfortable wiyh the situation she has created and avoid any guilt for her actions. And me being more available allows her to do that...instead of forcing her to confront the reality of her decisions.
Today has been okay, mostly stuck in the house as everything is cancelled. I am still not initiating any conversations, but did extend one a little (just a conversation about all the movies being postponed).
Really wishing she hadn't bought all these snacks. I'm doing okay, but it's torture not eating this stuff.
Not sure if I mentioned it before, and I am not sure it really matters for the sake of this discussion, but in case it helps to have an idea of her history, my wife has a poor example of marriage to draw from.
Her parents are married and still live in the same house, but have absolutely no relationship. It's so bad that her dad was not at our wedding, and her mom would not attens if her dad had been there. My wife has virtually no relationship with her dad. She takes him a sandwich on his birthday/father's day, but that's about it. If he calls, she is almost immediately trying to end the conversation.
I am not sure how long it has been lile this. At least as long as I habe known her, and according to her ex-husband, her relationship with her dad was like that back then too.
Really wishing she hadn't bought all these snacks. I'm doing okay, but it's torture not eating this stuff.
Instant gratification vs deferred gratification.
You know what instant gratification has got you. Keep up the hard work of deferred gratification.
Kinda counter intuitive not to eat what taste so good. Oreos were my go to. I now love low-glycemic carbs. Took awhile, but I feel much better at a lower weight.
You can't control what she buys, but you can control what you put ion your mouth, Same thing with DBing, you can't control what she does, but you can control your response and your behavior. Very hard to change you habits, impossible to change someone elses behavior.
I don't even know why I try to get people here to change.
I miss OZ.
I did send a text last night to her. Just a link to an article about San Francisco locking down because of the virus.
No conversation or anything came of it (unless you count a single reply as a conversation).
Fortunately, I am in a job that allows me to get out of the house and shouldn't be impacted much by the virus. But after that, there's not much else to do, or anywhere to go.
If the D should come about, how do you picture the relation with her? Would you continue to do the things you currently do (or want to do), or would you change? If so, how would that R look?
If the D should come about, how do you picture the relation with her? Would you continue to do the things you currently do (or want to do), or would you change? If so, how would that R look?
Do you mean, as far as GAL? Getting/staying in shape, doing the things I enjoy, and improving myself? I would definitely continue those things.
As far as picturing my relationship with her...that's more difficult. Faith and commitment to my vows is a big thing for me, and for me, the vows we took are the marriage, not a piece of paper from the government. So, in a way, for me, a legal D doesn't put an end to my vows. So, I don't see myself going out and trying to date anyone or anything.
The living situation is something to be figured out. We live in a fairly expensive county, and because of the logistics of taking our daughter back and forth, living in another county that my dollars will go a lot further in is not a realistic option for me. So, I need to figure out if I need to find a way to save up for awhile to get something nicer, or just get a place now with what I have that is not ideal.
I'm not sure how much our relationship would be that much different than it is now, unless she decides there's more to she wants it to be. Currently, it's pretty business like. 90%+ is strictly about our daughter and logistics of some sort. The rest that's unrelated is just casual conversation that doesn't get too involved. We haven't talked about our relationship in a while.
Short version: I'm not really sure.
Journaling....
I'm bored. This virus has really done a number on options. There's nowhere to go now after work. No classes, no hobbies, exercise options have dwindled, and I'm stuck in a house stocked with snacks. I wish the weather would at least cooperate a little so I could get outside a bit more. Maybe next week will be better there.
And, work is pretty slow as well with everything. We mostly work with the local city governments, and a lot of them are shut down, so there's not as much activity (at least for what I do personally).
Home life is, as usual, mainly focused on my daughter. Very little conversation with the wife. She'll occasionally make a comment about things going on in the world, but there's never any significant discussion (in either length or subject matter). I suppose that's better than the icy cold stonewalling I used to get for months and months.
My daughter loves it when we're together. She'll direct us sometimes to go sit somewhere together, or in a way that she can sit between both of us. Then she'll doing something like, look at my W and say, "My mommy." Look at me and say, "My daddy." Then just lift her head up and smile and say, "My mommy and my daddy!" It's bittersweet as I love seeing her happy and smiling, but it breaks my heart because of what is in progress (of course, that process, with whatever timeline it was on, is delayed now too, I think, as the court has continued almost all cases to a later date).
It's one thing to be patient when there are things to keep you busy, but much more difficult when most of the things you'd like to do are not an option. Now, there's too much time for the mind.
I'm right there with you in that boat...
Stuck...
Trying to keep the focus on me, but sitting in an empty house is awful and I refuse to put the television on. It hurts to have it on and not due to current events. I just cant stand it on anymore.
And you are right the weather stinks.... further keeping us stuck.
Time to day dream.
It's one thing to be patient when there are things to keep you busy, but much more difficult when most of the things you'd like to do are not an option. Now, there's too much time for the mind.
Study for the amateur (HAM) radio licence...that will keep you busy.
Of course, as soon as I mention things being delayed, my lawyer asks to speak with me. Will have a conversation with them in the next couple of days.
I do have the option of trying to force her to do counseling (I am honestly more concerned about her getting some for her kids' sake, than for our R), but have declined that so far, thinking it would make things worse considering her resistance.
I'm bored. This virus has really done a number on options. There's nowhere to go now after work. No classes, no hobbies, exercise options have dwindled, and I'm stuck in a house stocked with snacks. I wish the weather would at least cooperate a little so I could get outside a bit more. Maybe next week will be better there.
GAL is more of a challenge than usual. I've been doing daily hikes--solo, with my kids, or with Meetups I lead. It's 30s-40s here with light rain and snow--nothing a jack and rain pants can't handle. My local yoga class has switched to an online format. I can still play my guitar, workout, may sculpt clay next week if I can find a shop to fire it. Been calling old friends and acquaintances. Also seems an *ideal* time to plan vacations and trips for late summer when things have simmered down. e-Learning is a good option, too.
Study for the amateur (HAM) radio licence...that will keep you busy.
Woah--fellow ham?! I hold a General class license and know morse code.
Journaling....
I'm bored. This virus has really done a number on options. There's nowhere to go now after work. No classes, no hobbies, exercise options have dwindled, and I'm stuck in a house stocked with snacks. I wish the weather would at least cooperate a little so I could get outside a bit more. Maybe next week will be better there.
Man I wish so bad I had that "problem"! My boss is old school, doesn't believe there's a real health problem and expects us to be at our desk every day. Surely you can find some hobby you're interested in. Here is a list of hobbies that don't require leaving the house, you could probably order everything you need online for any of these:
- Painting
- Sculpting in oven bake clay
- Leatherwork
- Sand art
- Leaded/ stained glass
- Building plastic models (car/ plane/ boat)
- Build a model railroad
- Build a diorama
- Build an R/C car, plane or boat
Heck a lot of men try knitting and sewing too. I've tried it but I don't have nearly enough patience.
I've done all of the above by the way.
Most people will respond "but I'm not good at that" or "I'm not artsy". Do you think any of us were when we started out? Some of my early work is terrible! You research, you look at the work others have done, you practice techniques, you try and then try again and try again.
If there's not SOMETHING you can enjoy doing at home then you need to change that.
Journaling....
I'm bored. This virus has really done a number on options. There's nowhere to go now after work. No classes, no hobbies, exercise options have dwindled, and I'm stuck in a house stocked with snacks. I wish the weather would at least cooperate a little so I could get outside a bit more. Maybe next week will be better there.
Man I wish so bad I had that "problem"! My boss is old school, doesn't believe there's a real health problem and expects us to be at our desk every day. Surely you can find some hobby you're interested in. Here is a list of hobbies that don't require leaving the house, you could probably order everything you need online for any of these:
- Painting
- Sculpting in oven bake clay
- Leatherwork
- Sand art
- Leaded/ stained glass
- Building plastic models (car/ plane/ boat)
- Build a model railroad
- Build a diorama
- Build an R/C car, plane or boat
Heck a lot of men try knitting and sewing too. I've tried it but I don't have nearly enough patience.
I've done all of the above by the way.
Most people will respond "but I'm not good at that" or "I'm not artsy". Do you think any of us were when we started out? Some of my early work is terrible! You research, you look at the work others have done, you practice techniques, you try and then try again and try again.
If there's not SOMETHING you can enjoy doing at home then you need to change that.
Well, I have hobbies at home (I'm a home theater enthusiast and have a movie theater in the basement), but I'm talking about going and getting out of the house. My boredom probably exists mostly at work which has gotten really slow.
It's a nice list, but none of those things interest me, in even the slightest way.
Maybe, I should try learning a new language.
I am considering getting a few of the coaching sessions. Anyone have experience with that?
I did 3 sessions. I liked them, the coach framed things a bit differently for me than the forum, gave me some things to think about.
I did. They help clarify things and reduce any confusion you find here. Also they can get you a lot more answers quickly.
Had my first session today. He definitely gave me some suggestions on some 180s I could do. They're not necessarily huge undertakings, but are definitely things that I would have to get outside my comfort zone to do, so they feel huge to me. They involve skills I need to develop at some point, anyway. I'm going to have to think on it, come up with a plan of action, and prepare/practice.
What are you first set of 180s?
What are you first set of 180s?
To initiate a conversation about how she sees us splitting up our assets. It doesn't have to be about all of our assets, it could be just about one item. And I need to listen to what she says, and validate.
And possibly to initiate a conversation (or just make a statement) about her (I suppose I could phrase it as both of us) being open to criticism or suggestions on how we do things. With an emphasis on - I want to grow as a person, I want her to grow, I want us to grow as parents, and people, and to do that we have to be able to accept and even seek new input/data to help us do that. Since we're going to be in each other's lives (marriage or not) for a long time, it's something that would be beneficial to us, and our daughter.
I'm not much of a talker, and definitely don't usually initiate conversations about major or hot-button topics, so it would be an 180 and not something she'd expect from me.
The 2nd thing would be much more difficult for me as it seems to my mind like a part of a larger conversation rather than something to initiate on its own. The first I think I can do. I'm just trying to think of items we might disagree on, or that will take some thought on her part. Get something I can validate and not just a quick, "oh you can have that."
Ugh, she got another round of snacks today. And this time she got a few things that she knows I usually end up eating like 95% of. It's like she isbeither trying to see me fail on my weight loss gains, or is testing me.
how is initiating relationship talks and talks about divorce 180's?
180's is changing how you react to situations, changing how you handle things. It is doing something differently. Making situations so you can have a chance to validate or "show" a different way you would discuss it aren't 189's. Read up on them a little more, I know there are great resources right on the boards for that
how is initiating relationship talks and talks about divorce 180's?
180's is changing how you react to situations, changing how you handle things. It is doing something differently. Making situations so you can have a chance to validate or "show" a different way you would discuss it aren't 189's. Read up on them a little more, I know there are great resources right on the boards for that
It's a 180 because bringing up that topic is not something I would normally do. She would expect me to just sit and wait for her to bring it up. She would expect me to be passive. There was no suggestion about discussing the relationship. Just getting her thoughts on things regarding the divorce and the current step it is in.
I often times have thought that Michele and the coaches may have some very different thoughts on DBing than many on the boards seem to. I definitely know from DR that 180s are more than just reactions.
Any other thoughts on what the coach suggested?
I kind of wish I had done it yesterday as she asked if she could give one of our TVs to her mom today.
Originally Posted by sandi2
If the D should come about, how do you picture the relation with her? Would you continue to do the things you currently do (or want to do), or would you change? If so, how would that R look?
Do you mean, as far as GAL? Getting/staying in shape, doing the things I enjoy, and improving myself?
No, I just mean how would you interact and/or what kind of tone would the R have from your side of the street, so to speak. Would you do as much for her, as you do while M to her? Other than child support, would give her financial assistance? Would you be available whenever she wanted you to do something for her? Would you text her, checking to see how she is? Would you respond when she texts something funny? If she was dating, or if she were to remarry, would you do anything differently than you are currently doing......where she is concerned? I don't mean as the mother of your child, but in your personal relationship with her. Is there anything that would cause you to draw a line in the sand?
I'm not trying to be contentious, so please bear with me as I ask these questions.......as is my way of getting to know you and your sitch better.
Faith and commitment to my vows is a big thing for me, and for me, the vows we took are the marriage, not a piece of paper from the government. So, in a way, for me, a legal D doesn't put an end to my vows. So, I don't see myself going out and trying to date anyone or anything.
Unfortunately the law doesn't agree, as you know. What your wedding vows means to you won't determine what the law mandates. Will your vows keep you emotionally tied to a woman who legally divorces you?
I understand very well how unconditional love is often preached from the pulpit. And, as your Pastor said, it's how something is received by the other person, that makes the difference. Something I encourage you to think about, is how the H should respond to disrespect under his own roof. I'm not throwing shade to your faith, church, or Pastor. I just want to know what you believe is the appropriate response when a wife verbally, or otherwise, disrespects her H.
Does your W have justified reasons for divorcing you? Were you abusive, or involved in some type of illegal activity?
I'm not sure how much our relationship would be that much different than it is now, unless she decides there's more to she wants it to be. Currently, it's pretty business like. 90%+ is strictly about our daughter and logistics of some sort.
Does she get all the benefits from being legally married to you, without the requirements or expectations of a loving, devoted wife? From an outsider's view, it appears that she does. Will you open your thoughts to the possibility that there is more than you've allowed yourself to consider......or believe about your W and why she wants this divorce?
No, I just mean how would you interact and/or what kind of tone would the R have from your side of the street, so to speak. Would you do as much for her, as you do while M to her? Other than child support, would give her financial assistance? Would you be available whenever she wanted you to do something for her? Would you text her, checking to see how she is? Would you respond when she texts something funny? If she was dating, or if she were to remarry, would you do anything differently than you are currently doing......where she is concerned? I don't mean as the mother of your child, but in your personal relationship with her. Is there anything that would cause you to draw a line in the sand?
Hope I don't miss one:
No
No - she would actually owe me.
No
No
Maybe
There's just not much of anything I'm currently doing in our personal relationship. We exist in the same house, and anything I do "for her" are just things that need done in the house anyway.
Line in the sand regarding?
I'm not trying to be contentious, so please bear with me as I ask these questions.......as is my way of getting to know you and your sitch better.
Unfortunately the law doesn't agree, as you know. What your wedding vows means to you won't determine what the law mandates. Will your vows keep you emotionally tied to a woman who legally divorces you?
Emotionally? No. But I don't view love as only (or even primarily) an emotional thing. The law is the law, but for my personal beliefs and my faith, I don't care much what the government thinks. It's just a piece of paper and has nothing to do with my vows and the commitment I made.
I understand very well how unconditional love is often preached from the pulpit. And, as your Pastor said, it's how something is received by the other person, that makes the difference. Something I encourage you to think about, is how the H should respond to disrespect under his own roof. I'm not throwing shade to your faith, church, or Pastor. I just want to know what you believe is the appropriate response when a wife verbally, or otherwise, disrespects her H.
Appropriate response would be to address it.
Does your W have justified reasons for divorcing you? Were you abusive, or involved in some type of illegal activity?
Does she get all the benefits from being legally married to you, without the requirements or expectations of a loving, devoted wife? From an outsider's view, it appears that she does. Will you open your thoughts to the possibility that there is more than you've allowed yourself to consider......or believe about your W and why she wants this divorce?
No. No abuse, no infidelity, no drinking, no gambling, etc.
I am not sure what benefits she gets right now beyond me being here with our daughter. Our finances have always been mostly separate. She pays for the house, and a car payment (it was a lease that just finished and she wanted to keep it). She asked me to give her all the information for utilities and insurance so that she could pay for them. She even still does my laundry. So you could almost say that I am getting all the benefits of being married, except for the intimate relationship.
I've allowed myself to consider pretty much anything as far as her reasons. But I just haven't been able to come to any conclusions.
Just got a peak of her balance statements on her credit cards, and perhaps she's not doing her finances as well as I thought she was. We typically play our credit card statements in full every month, but last month she carried over $2k. I figure she had a jump in her balance from her attorney retainer, but would have thought she'd transfer money from her savings in order to cover it. But her decision making hasn't been ideal lately.
Just got a peak of her balance statements on her credit cards, and perhaps she's not doing her finances as well as I thought she was. We typically play our credit card statements in full every month, but last month she carried over $2k. I figure she had a jump in her balance from her attorney retainer, but would have thought she'd transfer money from her savings in order to cover it. But her decision making hasn't been ideal lately.
Yup... we were the same way... I paid everything in full every month.
He wants control of his life and he is racking up his credit card.
Yup... we were the same way... I paid everything in full every month.
He wants control of his life and he is racking up his credit card.
Perhaps she has done this more than I thought and she just never mentioned it. She is definitely less frugal than I am, but she makes quite a bit. I am about to give her the last couple of utilities (that I considered mine just because it's more in line with my areas of knowledge) - satellite and internet, as well as the insurance bill (minus my car's portion). I had held onto that when she initially asked for it, but that last payment was 6 months ago. If she wants it, she can have it.
Line in the sand regarding?
Regarding your self respect. You have core values, spiritual/moral integrity, principles & standards, by which you conduct your life. Where would you draw the line in tolerating a complete lack of respect? More especially, disrespect from your W? Are there boundaries in place?
I don't view love as only (or even primarily) an emotional thing. The law is the law, but for my personal beliefs and my faith, I don't care much what the government thinks. It's just a piece of paper and has nothing to do with my vows and the commitment I made.
So, no matter what your W may do, you would remain committed to the marriage? If she brought another man into your home for the purpose of fortification right under your nose, and she mocked you for being lousy in bed, dragged your name through the mud, refused to ever be intimate with you again.........or a number of other horrible things she could do to destroy you, it wouldn't change your decision to remain committed? If she leaves you and marries another man, you will live out the rest of your life alone, without a sexual companion, committed to the vows you made. Right?
Would you say your W is as strong in her faith as you are? Have you seen any changes in her that would make you question it?
Quote
I understand very well how unconditional love is often preached from the pulpit. And, as your Pastor said, it's how something is received by the other person, that makes the difference. Something I encourage you to think about, is how the H should respond to disrespect under his own roof. I'm not throwing shade to your faith, church, or Pastor. I just want to know what you believe is the appropriate response when a wife verbally, or otherwise, disrespects her H.
Appropriate response would be to address it.
You mean talk to her about it? And if she refused to do the right thing, then what is the next step for the H?
No. No abuse, no infidelity, no drinking, no gambling, etc.
I am not sure what benefits she gets right now beyond me being here with our daughter. Our finances have always been mostly separate. She pays for the house, and a car payment (it was a lease that just finished and she wanted to keep it). She asked me to give her all the information for utilities and insurance so that she could pay for them. She even still does my laundry. So you could almost say that I am getting all the benefits of being married, except for the intimate relationship.
I'm not sure either, but it could be that she is waiting on something else to happen, that doesn't have anything to do with you directly. I believe when a woman says she is done and wants a divorce......yet, she continues to remain legally M to her H, she is benefiting in some kind of fashion. She either receives financial, physical, or emotional support.......or she's holding back due to the probable criticism and lack of support from family & friends when they discover her intentions. I think the latter applies especially when there has been a strong religious foundation while growing up, and probably more so in "traditional" families, (as they are referred to by modern times). But, it's JMHO. I apologize for my short term memory today, but does she have a close relationship with her parents, and are they strong in living Christian lives?
I've allowed myself to consider pretty much anything as far as her reasons. But I just haven't been able to come to any conclusions.
It must be agonizing, trying to figure out what's going on with her. I have seen a few cases where a W would leave her H without any warning or explanation. In those particular cases, the W would move off and the H would not hear from her again. However, in each case, there was not a child born into the marriage. They were usually couples going through second marriages as older adults, and some had children from previous MR's or the kids were grown and living off somewhere. I remember how sad I felt for these LBH's, b/c in a couple of cases, the walk away wife left no address or phone number for contact. Anyway, I only tell you about them, in case you see any comparison, plus having a small child together will, hopefully, be a link to her.
I encourage you to rest in your faith, and pray for your W. Also, pray that God will reveal anything you may need to change in yourself. I'm sure you have already been fervently praying. It's difficult for some of us to let go and put our loved ones in God's hands. At the moment, I don't know much more to suggest, except to follow the book, Divorce Remedy.......and use the 37 rules as guidelines. Don't take it to mean I think you should give up and stop posting. We are on Captain N's team, and will try to give emotional support and/or share out thoughts as long as you are here.
((hugs))
Regarding your self respect. You have core values, spiritual/moral integrity, principles & standards, by which you conduct your life. Where would you draw the line in tolerating a complete lack of respect? More especially, disrespect from your W? Are there boundaries in place?
Not specifically. There's nothing I've verbalized to her or anything. I would not just put up, with anything and everything, however, I am not sure of exactly what my limits are.
So, no matter what your W may do, you would remain committed to the marriage? If she brought another man into your home for the purpose of fortification right under your nose, and she mocked you for being lousy in bed, dragged your name through the mud, refused to ever be intimate with you again.........or a number of other horrible things she could do to destroy you, it wouldn't change your decision to remain committed? If she leaves you and marries another man, you will live out the rest of your life alone, without a sexual companion, committed to the vows you made. Right?
No, not no matter what she would do. My faith certainly allows for moving beyond such a situations, or situations. Do I think I could forgive her and work on the marriage if she had an affair? Yes, I do. Would I still bother trying, or want, to work on things if she and she got remarried (something she has said she would never do again - not that it means much) or into a serious relationship with someone else? No. If she wanted to do crazy things with other guys and just rub my face in it, and belittle me, no, I would not remain committed. I would feel freed from my vows in those instances.
Would you say your W is as strong in her faith as you are? Have you seen any changes in her that would make you question it?
No, not at all. She definitely does not share faith the way I do. She has "beliefs" but I'm not really clear on what they are at this point. Whatever they are, they don't seem to have any impact on her actions or principles.
You mean talk to her about it? And if she refused to do the right thing, then what is the next step for the H?
I don't know. I suppose it would depend on what it was and the severity of it. If it was things like you mentioned above, then I would probably need to separate myself from her in every way possible.
I'm not sure either, but it could be that she is waiting on something else to happen, that doesn't have anything to do with you directly. I believe when a woman says she is done and wants a divorce......yet, she continues to remain legally M to her H, she is benefiting in some kind of fashion. She either receives financial, physical, or emotional support.......or she's holding back due to the probable criticism and lack of support from family & friends when they discover her intentions. I think the latter applies especially when there has been a strong religious foundation while growing up, and probably more so in "traditional" families, (as they are referred to by modern times). But, it's JMHO. I apologize for my short term memory today, but does she have a close relationship with her parents, and are they strong in living Christian lives?
Well, she's not really continuing to remain legally married, since she filed. Her family is aware, at least her sisters and other daughter are. I'm not sure about her mom, but I would guess she has told her at this point.
She has a pretty good relationship with her mother, but an almost non-existent one with her father. This is despite her father living in the same house as her mother. Her mother has zero relationship with her father either, and tries to avoid him as much as possible (she would not do family things, like our wedding, or family photos if he was there - he was not). If he calls her, she tries to get him off the phone almost immediately (and he usually just keeps talking with her saying over and over, "Okay, bye"). The best I can say about her relationship with her dad is that she takes him a sandwich for his birthday or father's day.
It must be agonizing, trying to figure out what's going on with her. I have seen a few cases where a W would leave her H without any warning or explanation. In those particular cases, the W would move off and the H would not hear from her again. However, in each case, there was not a child born into the marriage. They were usually couples going through second marriages as older adults, and some had children from previous MR's or the kids were grown and living off somewhere. I remember how sad I felt for these LBH's, b/c in a couple of cases, the walk away wife left no address or phone number for contact. Anyway, I only tell you about them, in case you see any comparison, plus having a small child together will, hopefully, be a link to her.
It has been agonizing, but I think I'm mostly over that. Now, when she does something that makes no sense (like getting into bed with me when our daughter wants me, instead of sleeping in the spare room - she sleeps with our daughter, which is already strange enough), I just shake my head. Though yesterday I had to chuckle when she scolded our daughter for changing her mind on something. I was like...she's 2, and you're holding her to a standard far greater than you hold yourself. I had to walk away before I did that, though.
I encourage you to rest in your faith, and pray for your W. Also, pray that God will reveal anything you may need to change in yourself. I'm sure you have already been fervently praying. It's difficult for some of us to let go and put our loved ones in God's hands. At the moment, I don't know much more to suggest, except to follow the book, Divorce Remedy.......and use the 37 rules as guidelines. Don't take it to mean I think you should give up and stop posting. We are on Captain N's team, and will try to give emotional support and/or share out thoughts as long as you are here.
((hugs))
Thanks, it's appreciated. The biggest positive from all of this has been a renewed vigor I have for my faith. It's not the only one though, as I am definitely allowing myself to resurface after a few years of kind of just allowing her to mold me into the person she doesn't seem to like.
I was going to bring up the assets as the coach suggested last night, but didn't feel the time was right. When I finally thought the timing was good, my daughter decided she would climb around and play (jump around) in my lap, so I know I would be distracted trying to make sure she didn't fall.
I did, however, leave the bills for her this morning. If she wants them, she can have them.
She also got in bed with me again this morning. My daughter wakes up, tells her she wants me, so she comes in my room and they both get in. I don't get it. I understand bringing our daughter in, but you'd think she would go sleep in the spare room or something.
Talking has continued to be pretty sparse, and limited completely to our daughter. The only exception being when she asked if she could give the TV to her mom. She hasn't initiated any conversations about anything, in person or on text. I definitely feel more distant than we did a couple weeks ago.
Wow...
I just got a look at her full retirement and bank account statements (savings anyway)...she has no money. She has some in retirement, but not a huge amount. Her savings is depleted, and I imagine her checking is as well as she has had to transfer funds from her savings to her checking.
She can't even come close to honoring the offer she made for assets (she keeps the house - it was hers before I met her - and her retirement and bank accounts, I keep my retirement and bank accounts, and she reimburses me for money I spent on the house - about $20k).
I have no idea what she's thinking or what world she's living in.
How do you look into her private accounts.
And it’s probably safe to say she has an account you don’t know about
How do you look into her private accounts.
And it’s probably safe to say she has an account you don’t know about
Discovery for the divorce. Though, I am sure I could find the statements in the house if I looked.
So, she asked me last night when I got home, what she was supposed to do with the bills I gave her. She asked if she was supposed to pay me for the insurance. I just said, "You said you wanted the information for that information." She said, "Yeah, I did. What about the internet and satellite bills?" I said, "Those are utilities, so I included them." She said, "In that case, we'll (as if we're in this together) probably go without the satellite and have to just use the antenna (we don't have one, and the satellite bill is relatively small).
Looked closer at her statements again, and both credit cards have their highest balances right now. A total of close to $700. Her bank accounts are empty, her retirement portfolio isn't very robust, and I'm sure quite a bit lower than what I'm seeing in these statements considering the current situation (but no withdrawals from retirement - at least in the 6 months I have). She just purchased the van we were leasing, and her payments will be about $100 more a month than they were before.
And somehow she is supposed to pay me $20k as part of splitting our assets. Maybe this is why she doesn't seem to want or expect me to leave the house after the divorce. She wants time to pay that off, and would probably ask me to start paying the utilities again as a condition of staying.
I'm supposed to discuss things with my lawyer today. I still want to see the checking account statements, and need to discuss assets within the house (some have significant value - both monetary and personal). I'll try to do that this evening.
I'm not sure how she's put herself in this position considering her income. She just tries to take everything on herself and is too stubborn to ask for help or realize the partnership we were in. Now the reality is hitting pretty hard, but I'm not sure she's catching on...at all.
Her mood has not been great. It seems to have regressed quite a bit since I have stopped texting her at all, and haven't initiated any conversations, even mundane ones. She has stopped texting me or starting anything either, and all that's talked about is our daughter. Quite a bit different/worse than what was going on just before I came here. She's still not being negative all the time, like she used to be, and she does talk me up/defend me to our daughter, but our interaction is not good.
It was kind of what I was afraid of. If I became completely distant, so would she.
And somehow she is supposed to pay me $20k as part of splitting our assets. Maybe this is why she doesn't seem to want or expect me to leave the house after the divorce. She wants time to pay that off, and would probably ask me to start paying the utilities again as a condition of staying.
People set up payment plans, do cash out refis on homes, loans from 401(k)'s, borrow from relatives. Why are you so hung up on this?
It was kind of what I was afraid of. If I became completely distant, so would she.
Fear not. If you get a divorce, do you plan on being all close and cuddly while she is with another man?
She is telling you what she wants via the divorce. Accept it. Be strong and be good. Her climbing into bed is strange considering she wants the divorce. I think it is a slightly good sign if you are hoping to bust the divorce but you must be strong and thoughtful as opposed to weak and impulsive. I'd probably hop out of bed if that happens and go take your daughter outside or go play in the basement - you get the idea.
And somehow she is supposed to pay me $20k as part of splitting our assets. Maybe this is why she doesn't seem to want or expect me to leave the house after the divorce. She wants time to pay that off, and would probably ask me to start paying the utilities again as a condition of staying.
People set up payment plans, do cash out refis on homes, loans from 401(k)'s, borrow from relatives. Why are you so hung up on this?
[quote]
Well, she doesn't have the retirement money to do that with, and her relatives don't have money to borrow from. She could take out a loan, but that would just push her into more debt. None of it is sound financial sense.
[quote]
Fear not. If you get a divorce, do you plan on being all close and cuddly while she is with another man?
Well, the whole idea is to NOT get a divorce. Not just be like, "I don't give a crap." I do. There's no point in a marriage or any of this if it all just becomes something that never matters or is a care for us. I'm not going to lie to myself and pretend it doesn't matter, or that it shouldn't.
Yes, I will be okay if there is a D. Life moves on. My daughter will be okay too. But, she will also be negatively affected. That's just a fact. The goal is not just to be okay. The goal is not to just settle for whatever comes my way. The goal is to aim for the best possible outcomes, and do whatever I can, to try (no guarantees) and reach them. Not just for me, but for my daughter as well.
What I would do if she were with another man is kind of irrelevant. At least, I think so. That situation is not my goal.
I think maybe there is a misconception about my state of mind. I'm not someone who is feeling all crushed and doesn't know how I'm going to manage life without my W. I'm not depressed, I'm not moping around, I'm not crying my eyes out at night. I'm fully cognizant that I can do quite well on my own and in the future and that my happiness is not dependent on her. My anger, what I have had of it, in all of this has not been about losing the relationship with my wife, it has been a reaction to her negativity and criticisms, but mostly about her disregard for the impacts on her children.
The biggest resistances I have to a divorce go as follows: My faith, my daughter's well-being, my step-daughter's well-being, the huge financial hit, maybe my wife's well-being (because I do still think she has some problems that I don't want to see her, or anyone, succumb to), and then finally, way down the line, how I'll be able to cope with it.
I believe in the institution of marriage and the commitments involved. I think our society is far too accepting of throwing that away, sometimes at the drop of a hat. I resist that.
She is telling you what she wants via the divorce. Accept it. Be strong and be good. Her climbing into bed is strange considering she wants the divorce. I think it is a slightly good sign if you are hoping to bust the divorce but you must be strong and thoughtful as opposed to weak and impulsive. I'd probably hop out of bed if that happens and go take your daughter outside or go play in the basement - you get the idea.
Well, it usually happens in the middle of the night, sometimes shortly before it's time to get up. A couple of times I didn't even realize it until I did get up in the morning.
Fellow Missouruhan (I formerly am anyway)?
Btw, if my posts sometimes seem a little harsh, or combative, it's just that I kind of type in a matter-of-fact kind of way, and my tone is not really conveyed like it otherwise would be.
Just an FYI, in case anyone thinks my responses to their posts are trying to be argumentative or anything. It's not. I'm just getting my thoughts out there, sometimes beyond the scope of what I'm replying to.
I wouldn't worry about how she is going to pay you. That's her problem.
If you wanting her back is that far down the line then just keep detaching and focusing on yourself. Maybe she'll come back if she sees a healthy, attractive individual.
Brought up the assets within the house. I asked her what she was thinking about some of the assets, like the beds (something we would both need) for example. She just said she wanted to keep the tempurpedic (one she had before we got together, and also the one I'm sleeping in now), but that I could have whatever else I wanted. Then she said, other than that, she didn't really think there was much for us to split (I'm taking that to mean she thinks it's pretty obvious what belongs to who). For the most part, that's probably correct, though, I wonder about the TVs now, and there is a movie theater in our basement that I pretty much want anything that's not structurally attached. She may be okay with that, since she hasn't really been down there except maybe once or twice since our daughter was born (part of the whole distancing thing she started doing after giving birth).
I didn't bring up the theater yet. My lawyer never called today. I want to speak with her, and talk to my coach again.
Then she asked, "Why? Are you planning on leaving? You can stay, at least until she (D) is old enough for me to explain to her what's going on."
To the beds, I said that made sense, I could understand why she wanted to keep that one. And she laughed and said, "it's a nice bed, isn't it?" Honestly, it's a little hot for my tastes.
To the leaving, I said, there were advantages to that, but I wasn't sure what I'd do. Then she joked about me getting an apartment right down the street so she'd be able to go to a better middle school (I'm not doing an apartment - ever).
On a side note, I am now officially at my lowest weight since getting married.
She asked me later if there was anything specific I wanted, or why I asked. So, I said I would like to have what's in the theater, and she said okay. She figured we'd just take what each of us used more. Basically, whatever I want, I can have.
I wouldn't worry about how she is going to pay you. That's her problem.
If you wanting her back is that far down the line then just keep detaching and focusing on yourself. Maybe she'll come back if she sees a healthy, attractive individual.
Not worrying, just not understanding her reasoning (or lack thereof).
Just like I don't understand how she can barely stand to ne in the same room with me before, but she's also okay getting in our bed and is almost expecting that I will continue living there after the D.
Have my 2nd coaching session tomorrow.
Had my 2nd coaching session today, and thought it went well.
Definitely some strong deviations from *some* advice given here, and more in line with what I had been thinking before, and from the DR book.
Suggested I engage with her more, ask her how she's doing, etc. Since I'm generally more reserved and quiet, and had even pulled back more from that during our relationship, this is doing something different. And it appears to have been something she responded well to before. Not pursuing, not talking about our relationship, just being a more present and engaging person. A happy medium between the pressure of pursuit and the disconnection from non-engagement and letting her initiate everything.
Not everything works the same for everyone. Some people may have stronger personalities, so for them, pulling back and being distant is what their partner needs. Whereas, for someone like myself, the opposite is true (without adding the pressure of pushing the relationship).
The proof is in the pudding. This being distant and not talking to her unless she initiates is more of the same, cheeseless tunnels for me, and the response to it has not been good. It's not the person I want to be, and appears to not be the person she wants to engage with either.
C,
90% of the posters here have wayward spouses. It would not be wise to engage with a wayward spouse. Yours does not seem to be wayward she just doesn’t want to be married anymore. So if you want to engage then engage. Here’s my concern. She starts to engage with you and you guys are having pleasant conversations and you think she’s softening and may change her mind. You initiate a relationship talk and she punches you in the nuts and it’s like bomb drop all over again. That’s why I prefer that you are out when she’s home GALING which helps with detachment.
Dude,
you are the one splitting hairs here. Nothing will work, there is NO friggin silver bullet, you do ahve to get to grips with it. People helping you over here are are talking from their own experience and do know what they are talking about.
Until you stop taking $hit from her and start growing, you will be stuck in a rut. She wants out and you have to let her go. If she comes back, she's yours if she does not, she never was.
No amount of a$$ kissing and tiptoeing around her will turn her towards you. She has to respect you, before she would even consider commiting to you.
Again, if you are basing your feelings on the response you get from her, then you are in for a world of hurt.
Dude,
you are the one splitting hairs here. Nothing will work, there is NO friggin silver bullet, you do ahve to get to grips with it. People helping you over here are are talking from their own experience and do know what they are talking about.
Until you stop taking $hit from her and start growing, you will be stuck in a rut. She wants out and you have to let her go. If she comes back, she's yours if she does not, she never was.
No amount of a$$ kissing and tiptoeing around her will turn her towards you. She has to respect you, before she would even consider commiting to you.
Again, if you are basing your feelings on the response you get from her, then you are in for a world of hurt.
Splitting hairs?
Who said anything about basing my feelings on her responses? Or tiptoeing around her or a$$ kissing? Or a silver bullet?
The problem is...people know what they are talking about *for them* not for a magic silver bullet for everyone. Which was my point. But I guess that's splitting hairs.
The fact is, there is a lot on these forums that contradict what Michele and her books say. A lot. For instance, so many people say, "oh no, don't let your S see the book. The book is only for the LBS." That's BS. DR is clearly geared towards either, and even has some section(s) that speak directly to the S who is leaving or considering it. And in the success story section, one even includes someone giving the book to their spouse to read and that playing a part in turning things around.
There is no magic bullet, no concrete single one way, but that is often a lot of what I have found on here. Stuff that worked for a particular situation being presented as that absolute go to for everyone.
If nothing works, then Michele, everyone associated with this site, and everyone on this forum is wasting an awful lot of time.
C,
90% of the posters here have wayward spouses. It would not be wise to engage with a wayward spouse. Yours does not seem to be wayward she just doesn’t want to be married anymore. So if you want to engage then engage. Here’s my concern. She starts to engage with you and you guys are having pleasant conversations and you think she’s softening and may change her mind. You initiate a relationship talk and she punches you in the nuts and it’s like bomb drop all over again. That’s why I prefer that you are out when she’s home GALING which helps with detachment.
I appreciate it, and the rest of your posts. You at least seem to recognize where I'm coming from.
Fear not, I won't be initiating any relationship talk (I've always been reluctant to do that kind of thing anyway), and I will continuing with GAL (as much as possible at the moment).
For instance, so many people say, "oh no, don't let your S see the book. The book is only for the LBS." That's BS. DR is clearly geared towards either, and even has some section(s) that speak directly to the S who is leaving or considering it.
After you give the book to your spouse, See if she will join these forums as MsCaptianN. We have had several couples on here and it was very insightful to get both of their input.
Definitely some strong deviations from *some* advice given here, and more in line with what I had been thinking before, and from the DR book.
Definitely follow the coaches advise. You were able to have a real conversation. I like to get as many options as possible when making my decisions. I then use logic to pick the one that logically seams right for me.
For instance, so many people say, "oh no, don't let your S see the book. The book is only for the LBS." That's BS. DR is clearly geared towards either, and even has some section(s) that speak directly to the S who is leaving or considering it.
After you give the book to your spouse, See if she will join these forums as MsCaptianN. We have had several couples on here and it was very insightful to get both of their input.
I might, if she ever gets to a point where I think she'd be receptive to anything I suggested she take a look at.
Guess this is an update/journaling...
Things have been a lot more pleasant between us since I started engaging again, but not pursuing. We've had friendly conversations about the happenings in the world, what's going on in our day, the brownies she made, our daughter, etc.
One conversation that's been a little surreal is that she's been telling me all about her search for insurance quotes for the house, and the cars she plans to keep. She's telling me, who she's contacted, what they've asked for, who didn't get back with her, about the rates she's gotten and how they compare, and the programs they have for possible discounts with monitoring (for her daughter's car). All the while, I'm kind of thinking, "Why are you telling me all of this? Am I supposed to have an interest in your insurance endeavors? Should I care what it ends up costing you? This is the kind of conversation a married couple would have." Don't get me wrong, I have no problem listening, or engaging in this conversation, it's just another one of the many, perplexing things that go on, where I just want to go, "Huh?!?"
I also have to make a decision regarding the divorce. My lawyer wants to make a proposal on the assets that I'm conflicted about. On one hand, I could ask for a significant amount more than she proposed to try and get the most for myself while she is wanting to get out, but on the other hand, I'm not sure I consider it really fair. I know a huge reason I have as much money saved up as I do, is because of how much of the financial burden she took on during the marriage. It's hard for me to think I should ask for even more, even if I can get it. Especially, if it would wipe out her retirement. Of course, asking for it, doesn't mean she's forced into agreeing to it.
I've been praying on it, but still haven't come to a conclusion. I'm not in any rush on that either.
El Capiton,
Yeah WWs are famous for wanting to be friendly and speak nonchalantly about D.
My suggestion to you is to try to be fair but get what you can if she’s willing to give.
Captain ~ On the assets, only you can decide where you fall on that spectrum between empathy for your W's potential struggles and getting what you can.
As with all DB decisions, try to see things clearly, and without rose-colored (or gray-colored) glasses. Then you will feel good about whatever decision you make.
Captain ~ On the assets, only you can decide where you fall on that spectrum between empathy for your W's potential struggles and getting what you can.
As with all DB decisions, try to see things clearly, and without rose-colored (or gray-colored) glasses. Then you will feel good about whatever decision you make.
Believe me, I'm trying.
The way she is handling this financially, is kind of mind boggling to me.
She wants a divorce, where she pays me at least $20k, and at the same time, she wants to continue living together, with her now paying for all the bills. All this when she has spent about $9k over her net income over the last 6-7 months, has emptied her savings, and will make a huge dent and then some in her retirement to pay me. I should probably stop trying to understand the thinking. I have too much of an analytical mind, I guess.
I should probably stop trying to understand the thinking.
Correct--you only need to figure out if the deal she offered works for you, after consulting with your attorney (your attorney may recommend cautious moves such as financial disclosures).
Well, I made a decision on the divorce settlement question. Her lawyer kind of pushed for an update, so I went ahead and made a decision. It wasn't as much as my lawyer suggested, but more than my wife proposed. I feel okay about it. My wife got the insurance transferred over to a new account, so all that's left on the previous account is my car.
Things are going okay in the house. The wife is being friendly, or maybe polite is a better word. Almost acting like a roommate, which I guess is kind of how she acted before, except now it's a roommate who isn't full of anger and contempt for me.
I've been trying to express my gratitude to her (and others) more often. I recognize it's probably a weakness I've had that stems from my more reserved nature. I might typically express appreciate once in awhile (maybe occasions like birthdays, etc), but not consistently. I could tell she was starting to get annoyed from her short responses ("Mmmhmm, yep.") so, I explained that I'm trying to grow as a person and so I'm trying to work on being more aware of things I should be thankful for and expressing my gratitude. She said I didn't have to do it anymore, and thanked me for the things I've been doing around the house. I said I appreciated that, but I did need to keep doing it so that it becomes more natural for me, and that the current climate of the world kind of prevents many opportunities to practice.
Hi Captain, if you're talking to her in a way she doesn't like ("she started to get annoyed"), and she's asked you to stop ("She said I didn't have to do it anymore"), consider not talking to her that way.
That could be a respect 180, as would be asking for her consent to be practiced on.
Of course, it's easy to miss body language in an Internet post.
If the expression of gratitude is for your benefit, to see what goodness surrounds you, journaling is an option. I know at least one person who posts everyday on Facebook what they're thankful for.
It's actually one of my 180's to be doing the gratitude thing. It's what I discussed with my coach. And he actually suggested the explaining the reasons behind it to her, because he knew it could be annoying.
It is both for me, to grow as a person, but also because there are people who are deserving of appreciation and I have not done well in expressing that. I know I have appreciation, I feel it, but the person I have gratitude for does not. Or if they do, they get it all at once on special occasions, and not consistently.
She hasn't been annoyed with all of them. It's possible my timing was bad. The time that she seemed most annoyed, in particular, she was already frustrated with our daughter when I brought it up. Today I thanked her before leaving for work, and before explaining anything to her, and she was more pleasant about it.
You make a good point, though, and it's somethimg to consider.
I could tell she was starting to get annoyed from her short responses ("Mmmhmm, yep.") so, I explained that I'm trying to grow as a person and so I'm trying to work on being more aware of things I should be thankful for and expressing my gratitude. She said I didn't have to do it anymore.
I have been where you are. I see three things:
#1) she doesn't believe your changes are real. She sees them as manipulative.
#2) You should stop explaining. That sets you back. Make changes. Do not talk about them.
#3) Keep doing it. It is the right thing to do. Do not let her control you.
How she responds should not be your measuring stick.
Your measuring stick should be internal. Did I make a positive change in my behavior? Plus one. Did I do something I know I should not have done? Minus one.
Talked to my lawyer today about my decision on the divorce and the assets involved.
She suggested adding in language at the top of her communication to my W's ATTNY about me still not wanting the divorce and preferring us to work something out. I was a little resistant to the idea, as I didn't want it to sound like I was pressuring her, but she said she could draft something and send it to me to see if I was okay with it.
Here's what she came up with for that part:
W's ATTNY, thank you for sending me the requested documents. I know we have touched on this subject before, but I want to make it very clear that CaptainN loves W and absolutely does not want a divorce from her. He believes the marriage could be saved and is willing to do whatever it takes to make that happen. If there is any possibility for saving this marriage, please let us know and we could table this temporarily while the parties explore their options.
My first thought is that it comes across a little too strong and would feel like pressure. I don't know, though. I'm not sure how this stuff really comes across when it comes from a lawyer.
I have been where you are. I see three things:
#1) she doesn't believe your changes are real. She sees them as manipulative.
#2) You should stop explaining. That sets you back. Make changes. Do not talk about them.
#3) Keep doing it. It is the right thing to do. Do not let her control you.
How she responds should not be your measuring stick.
Your measuring stick should be internal. Did I make a positive change in my behavior? Plus one. Did I do something I know I should not have done? Minus one.
That's pretty much what my line of thinking was, with the exception of number 2 as that was a suggestion from my coach.
C,
If you can take the rejection and you want to give it one more shot. I say go for it.
Spoke with my coach this morning.
He doesn't see what benefit adding that language would really do. He asked, "Well, does she already know all of that?"
A lot of our discussion today focused on me not holding back on who I am. Being more open about joking around and laughing. Not worrying as much about how she might respond and just being the person I want to be. If I want to comment on something, or make a joke (even if it has some innuendo), or express my gratitude, then that's what I should do.
What do you guys think of changing what my ATTY suggested, to something like this:
W's ATTNY, thank you for sending me the requested documents. While CaptainN does not want this divorce and would prefer the parties sort through their problems together, he understands that W feels she needs to proceed. With that in mind...yada yada yada.
Short, reiterates the simple fact that I don't want this, but without pushing too much pressure, and is accepting of my W's needs.
Hi CN,
I do not know if wordsmiths things makes a difference. Which ever one you like more, pick that one.
My believe is less words the more the impact. Say things from the heart in person rather than in writing. Do not do things that make you look weak. This is unattractive and turns women off.
Have the lawyer deal with the legal aspect of D. No emotional stuff. Get the pie cut in half as cheap as possible.
My believe is less words the more the impact. Say things from the heart in person rather than in writing. Do not do things that make you look weak. This is unattractive and turns women off.
Have the lawyer deal with the legal aspect of D. No emotional stuff. Get the pie cut in half as cheap as possible.
Golden advice. Nothing in writing.
My lawyer sent the proposal over, and she is mulling it now, but it sounds like she's agreeable to it. She was awfully quiet yesterday, so I'm guessing it was because of that.
I did find out she has another account she didn't disclose. Or rather, I confirmed she did. She sent statements for a Roth IRA, but her paycheck showed a Roth 401K deduction that was much more than what was going into the IRA. I figured there was likely another Roth somewhere. Then she got a statement in the mail last week from a Roth account, and it was a different place than the other statement I had. Then, I went back through our taxes and found a statement from her employer a couple years ago, which listed her regular 401k, employer contribution, profit sharing, and the roth 401k and the balance at that time. I did some math, and assumed a similar contribution from her paychecks from the time of that statement to when she filed, and did a split of all of our assets to see what she'd owe me. It was higher than what my lawyer suggested last time. But, I still went with a lower number I was comfortable with. While legally, I may be eligible for more (including about 18 months of maintenance on top of what I mentioned), I don't feel entitled to it. She's worked hard and more than carried her share of the financial responsibility.
I'm still baffled by what she feels she's getting out of this. Apparently, a piece of paper from the government and the loss of a bunch of money is going to make her feel better. *shrug*
Well, she was not all that agreeable. I could tell she's been in a bad mood since Thursday. She wanted to know why I felt entitled to more than what she was offering (reimbursement for what I paid for home improvements). I explained about being in a difficult position as someone who be leaving the home (at some point) and about my preference for living in another area (we live close to another state, where my family and most of my friends live), where my money would go much farther on a house, but I was going to be pretty much stuck in this area (unless I want a nightmare commute with our daughter) with a higher financial burden.
She also complained about the request that she pay the settlement within 120 days. She was expecting to pay in monthly installments of $1,000 (though, she said some months would be more, and some less). She said she couldn't make a payment like that in 4 months. She said she didn't have any money. I asked about her retirement accounts, and she said I have more. I asked if she was sure, and she mentioned the ROTH IRA, and I asked about her 401Ks. She said she had one through work, but didn't know how much was in it, and that she didn't get statements. I told her about the statement I found in our taxes from 2 years ago, and the math I did based off her paycheck, and that I could have asked for more. She again asked why I felt entitled to it, and that she should keep what she earned, and I should keep what I earned. I told her, I could understand why she'd think that, but let her know that I'm not the one doing this. I told her she could offer me <a sum much larger than I was asking>, and I'd rather take the option where we are not doing this at all.
Later, she had me watch as she signed into her company account, and she checked her retirement. It currently has a balance that's more than I figured up before. After that, she said, "If you want <amount I asked for>, you can have it, but I can't do it in one payment like that."
She also said she'd be deducting rent, if I ended up staying. Which is fair, but this is the first time she's mentioned it, and I'm guessing the real reason she proposed I stay in the house.
She wanted me to tell her if that's what I wanted right then, and she'd propose that tomorrow. I told her I wanted to think about it, and she pressed on that, asking what I needed to think about. I simply said all of it. This is one thing about her I have always had a problem with. She expects everyone to make a decision on everything right away. She gets upset when people want to think about things before making a decision. Doesn't matter how large of a decision.
So, how do you go about validating while discussing things that you have to move forward on? Things like divorce issues. There's obviously going to be a lot of disagreement, or at least the potential for it.
After she says how she feels about something, where I don't want to do things her way, say something like, "So, you feel that <something> so you'd like for <something else>. I can see why you would feel that way. Would you like to hear how I look at the situation (or, maybe - These are my thoughts on the matter...)?"
I had about an hour long conversation with my step-daughter tonight. Most of that was her venting about her mom.
So, how do you go about validating while discussing things that you have to move forward on? Things like divorce issues. There's obviously going to be a lot of disagreement, or at least the potential for it.
Hi CaptainN, my girlfriend and I are both divorced. Neither of us wanted nor had any sort of drawn-out discussions with our ex's about the terms. My advice is to skip those. They aren't necessary. They probably won't boost your odds of a successful reconciliation or a strong co-parenting relationship.
My GF and I now have Ls. Once you have a L points of contention tend to be easy: 1. Side A proposes a change. 2. If Side B's lawyer believes Side A would be likely to win the change in court they make it. 3. If Side B's lawyer doesn't believe Side A would likely win the change in court they respond back, "No." Inherent in that "No" is the reality that the party asking for something unreasonable is the only one who would pay a bunch in court.
My GF had more point of contention than me with her ex-H so she also brought in a mediator. The mediator is a neutral party weighing in on the likelihood of getting the change and when the odds were closer to even proposing simpler alternatives either L may have missed.
So, how do you go about validating while discussing things that you have to move forward on? Things like divorce issues. There's obviously going to be a lot of disagreement, or at least the potential for it.
Hi CaptainN, my girlfriend and I are both divorced. Neither of us wanted nor had any sort of drawn-out discussions with our ex's about the terms. My advice is to skip those. They aren't necessary. They probably won't boost your odds of a successful reconciliation or a strong co-parenting relationship.
My GF and I have Ls. I highly recommend engaging a non-litigating L early in the process. Once you have a L points of contention tend to be easy: 1. Side A proposes a change. 2. If Side B's lawyer believes Side A would be likely to win the change in court they make it. 3. If Side B's lawyer doesn't believe Side A would likely win the change in court they respond back, "No." Inherent in that "No" is the reality that the party asking for something unreasonable is the only one who would pay a bunch in court.
My GF had more point of contention than me with her ex-H so she also brought in a mediator. The mediator is a neutral party weighing in on the likelihood of getting the change and when the odds were closer to even proposing simpler alternatives either L may have missed.
Yeah, that's essentially what we were doing, until she asked to talk about things last Sunday. While I like to keep all that through the Ls for the most part, I also see the value of being able to work some details out on our own if possible. Every little email (or worse, phone call) back and forth with the Ls costs money, and a 5 minute conversation could save hundreds of dollars.
While I like to keep all that through the Ls for the most part, I also see the value of being able to work some details out on our own if possible.
My GF and her ex-H did do some side negotiations, but over e-mail with the mediator and/or Ls CC'd. A $500/hr attorney may charge 5-min to read a couple e-mails ($42) or 15-min to skim a whole thread ($125). If you must discuss offline to reduce costs, can you still use e-mail to slow down the negotiation process, reducing emotionality, and allowing both sides time to weigh options and reflect on what's important?
So, how do you go about validating while discussing things that you have to move forward on? Things like divorce issues. There's obviously going to be a lot of disagreement, or at least the potential for it. She asked to talk about things last Sunday. a 5 minute conversation could save hundreds of dollars.
It doesn't sound like this discussion is limited to 5-minute topics that will save hundreds of dollars e.g. deciding which parent gets Halloween vs Easter on even years vs. odd years.
Then you wouldn't be worried about validating for contentious topics. If she wants to make a proposal, I'd actively listen, then tell her you need time to think about it. Skip any debating, persuading, etc.
Well, I told her that her proposal didn't work for me, and she got pretty angry. She accused me of robbing her to better myself, and said she felt cheated. She acted like she was some big victim and this thing just happened to her and she didn't see it coming. I just stayed calm and matter-of-factly pointed out that this is all her decision and choice.
She ultimately agreed to the proposal my lawyer sent over before.
No idea who that woman was. It's like I've been dealing with her sister through all of this. The way she is "thinking" is so far removed from how she used to think, and very reminiscent of how I'd expect her sister to deal with things.
Captain ~ Yep, you're going to get blamed for making her life miserable when you offer a reasonable proposal. It's funny how the WAS chooses D first, but is often the last to recognize/understand/accept the consequences of the decision.
unchien,
It's funny, and unfortunate. She said she was never getting married again. I said, "That's the way it's supposed to be." Then she said, "No thanks. Learned my lesson. Fool me once, fool twice....ya can't get fooled thrice!" She (and we) have often joked with that similar famous Bushism. I just said, "Nobody fooled you, sorry." Then she went, "Life fooled me." I said, "Nope, sorry." And she got all huffy and I excused myself from the conversation.
Hey Captain ~ I'm going to nitpick a little bit -- that was not really a DB conversation you entered into there.
Her: I'm never getting married again.
You (alerted to the fact you are getting sucked into an R talk): I'm going to go <insert GAL activity here>.
She's got her version of reality. The more you debate, question, defend, etc., the more she will entrench herself in her position. It is counter-intuitive.
When it comes to hashing out terms of a settlement, of course, it's time to assert yourself.
I'm going to nitpick a little bit -- that was not really a DB conversation you entered into there.
Agreed. Debating her on the merits of marriage seems counterproductive.
I know, not the best Dbing moment for me. I wasn't trying to debate her, however (probably semantics), just pointing out the obvious. She wasted no time notifying her lawyer she agreed to terms.
Hey Captain ~ I'm going to nitpick a little bit -- that was not really a DB conversation you entered into there.
Her: I'm never getting married again.
You (alerted to the fact you are getting sucked into an R talk): I'm going to go <insert GAL activity here>.
She's got her version of reality. The more you debate, question, defend, etc., the more she will entrench herself in her position. It is counter-intuitive.
When it comes to hashing out terms of a settlement, of course, it's time to assert yourself.
It's difficult. Conversation went a little longer than I anticipated. I was calm and not expressing emotion the whole time, but it is hard when so many logically twisted things come at you.
I screwed up at the end. You're right. Definitely not validating her on that one. It's been her choice to go down this road, and nobody tried to trick her or anything, but for some reason, she feels like she was fooled.
I've been here over a year now and I still make mistakes all the time.
It helps me to think of it like some sort of Jedi mind-trick or mental jiu-jitsu... whatever I intend to say will have exactly the opposite effect.
She was/is still very upset.
Last night she got my list of household items I'd like to keep (which we had already discussed and there didn't seem to ne an issue). She said she now had problems with some things. Some pretty petty stuff mostly. It wasn't a huge thing, so I wasn't going to bother fighting on it. One thing was my bike that she had got me when we had been dating only a couple weeks. Out of curiosity, I asked today why she wanted it (it's too big for her). She replied that she didn't and I could have it. Then I moved on to other things (gave her an update on the health of my grandmothers - both may die this week), and she followed up her previous comment with:
I wanted the bike because I want to take back everything I've bought you. Bike, clothes, shoes, watch, theater stuff, and everything else I've forgotten since I did not keep a list.
You can have the black recliner in living room.
Did you validate her feelings?
Did you validate her feelings?
I didn't respond to that comment at all. I thought about it, and was thinking of validating, but wasn't sure what to say exactly, so I said nothing.
Texting/Email or in person?
It has not been a good few days.
Last night, my grandmother on my dad's side died. About 7 or 8 hours later, the grandmother on my mom's side passed as well.
Then, this morning, my W got frustrated with our D2 because she wouldn't cooperate, so she just left her sitting on the floor and walked away from her, down the stairs, and took the dog for a walk. I was just about to step into the shower when I saw my W walk past the bathroom door and out of the bedroom where my D was. She did not say a word or try to get my attention at all. If I hadn't seen her, then I would have gotten in the shower and our D would have been sitting there, alone, confused, and upset with nobody watching her.
When she got back, I told her that was not okay, and her excuse was that our D didn't want to be picked up, and I was in the next room (even though I was going to be in the shower).
C,
I am really sorry to hear about your grandmothers. Life can be really $hitty sometimes.
Take care man!
Sorry to hear about your grandparents.
I know parenting can be frustrating. If W makes a pattern of this poor behavior, then you should be concerned. Personally I would just document things, and be extra observant. You can set some boundaries if she doesn't change her behavior.
This is the template:
"When you leave our 2YO daughter unattended, I feel .... If you ....I will..."
Did you validate how W was feeling? That does not mean you condone the behavior, just that you understand how she was feeling.
Sorry to hear about your grandparents.
I know parenting can be frustrating. If W makes a pattern of this poor behavior, then you should be concerned. Personally I would just document things, and be extra observant. You can set some boundaries if she doesn't change her behavior.
This is the template:
"When you leave our 2YO daughter unattended, I feel .... If you ....I will..."
Did you validate how W was feeling? That does not mean you condone the behavior, just that you understand how she was feeling.
Oh, there is a pattern (not specifically of leaving her unattended - though that is part of it), and I have been documenting it. I'm not sure what boundaries I can set, though. I don't really have much recourse when she does these things, outside of telling her that her actions are not okay.
I did not validate. I wasn't really worried about Dbing at the moment, but just trying to stand up for my D. Now, I did try to stay calm about it, and not just berate her for it. I just matter-of-factly stated that it wasn't okay, and the reasons why. I know, I probably should have said something recognizing her frustration and asked if she would just make sure I was aware if she needed to step away.
Number one priority is the safety of daughter. You can blend in BDing...This stuff is not easy....just prepare for the future...at some point, the validation and boundaries become natural. Thinking out what you could have done this time makes the next opportunity easier.
Not really anything new going on, just journaling a bit.
I'm pretty exhausted right now. A lot of it, is just a lack of sleep. I have been staying up pretty late (even as late as 3 am over the weekend), but not sleeping in any later. Staying up late has always been my natural tendency. Of course, as I got older and got stupid responsibilities, like a job, I've had to cut back. I used to try to go to bed around midnight, but lately, I've been up past 1 almost every night, and on the weekend until 2 or 3. Last night was the first night I got to bed "early" and that was probably just before 11:30. I did that because I was just completely drained yesterday.
It's not all sleep, though. There has of course been the stress of this entire marriage situation, and that's been weighing on me since October (probably longer as I had concerns about how things were going before that), the inability to see and doing things with friends, and more recently, the deaths of my grandmothers. I also have school stuff I'm working on, which if it was just something I had to do, wouldn't be an issue. However, it requires me to push my brain harder, both intellectually and creatively, so it's an added strain.
I haven't slept in at all, because I still have to go to work, and my W's job sent her back into the field for a few weeks, so she has to get up earlier, and so my daughter has to get up earlier, which means I'm awake earlier.
My wife has been angry and very cold with me since we discussed things concerning the divorce and she did not like the outcome. More than that, she just seems very unhappy in general. Her tone with our D often has just kind of a, "I don't care," feel to it. Like she's going through the motions.
I've been trying to continue to stay positive and upbeat, and still focusing losing weight, being there for my daughter, and doing things to better myself, as much as I can. I'm just tired.
I just want to close my eyes and sleep right now, but come tonight, around 10 pm, for whatever reason, I'll get a burst of energy and stay up late again.
Good sleep is VITAL. Change your habits and ensure you get at least 8 hrs of quality sleep. Go to bed at no later than 10 PM. Avoid coffee in the aftrenoon and evening, avoid distracitons such as videogames and TV an hour before sleep. IF that does not help, talk to youd doctor. You might try melatonin suplement. Sleep is CRUCIAL!
I will never be able to go to bed at 10. I mean, I could go to bed, but I would just lay there for hours, awake.
I also would have no time for myself if I went to bed at 10. After 10 is the only time I have to do things that I want to do. Things I enjoy doing (outside of just spending time with my daughter). Things for me.
I just need to force myself to stop whatever I'm doing at midnight and stop extending my evenings. There's just so much I want to get to.
She's definitely still angry with me. Very cold and short with me. I've never met someone who could hold a grudge like her.
I watched a movie yesterday, one she had seen before, and I knew she didn't like. I mentioned that I thought it was pretty annoying, and she was like, "Hmm, what? Are you talking to me? That one movie, what about it?" I repeated my thought, and she just kind of said, "yeah," but not even really the word, just a sound of disinterested affirmation.
Final paperwork for the divorce has been drawn up. Once everyone signs, then it's just a matter of how fast the courts work.
I'm very tempted to just say, "screw it," and send her the first chapter of DR and ask her if she can relate to any of it, or anything resonates with her at all.
Instead, I've said up another coaching session for Thursday.
The DR will not affect her in any shape or form. She will just view it as another attempt to mess with her head, therefor it will backfire. In time she will have a revelation of her ways, just not any time soon. You cannot do anything to speed up the process, but you can sure as heII screw things up. Leave her be, let her sort her things out.
In any case, what difference does it make if DR resonates with her? In her eyes YOU are the culprit, YOU are the root of everything, YOU are the cause of her hurt and any and all your actions yust further proves that to her.
Drink a nice tall cold glass of STFU juice and go work on yourself.