My background:
Married 4.5 years (together 9 years) and have a 3 year old. W-37 and H-38. 1.5 years ago she starts to say "ILYBNILWY". We fight, she returns and apologize. This happens more and more so we each go to IC and couples (started 6-7 months ago). My W is the most defensive person I know. She runs from every little problem b/c she doesn't want to face it. She had a terrible childhood and was essentially abandoned by her mom until her stepmom took her in at 12 years old,
Current Situation: After many nights of my W going out until 1-2am, taking 4 hours to run errands, and going to her 45 min IC but being gone for 2-3 hours, I broke into her social media and found her talking to OM about how good the night was before. She first said the affair lasted 3 months, then I asked it again and she said it was 6. But then I found videos she made for him that went back 13-14 months...all the way back to the ILYBNILWY statement. She left the house on D-Day. We talk daily and we have gone back to couples therapy. She says she wants to take time for herself, she doesn't want to be with me, but she's not sure if she wants a divorce. She says she is talking to the other guy and not seeing him. But I know she has seen him a couple times. She can't give him up. In the 2nd couples therapy I said I don't accept that she's seeing him and I will move forward without her if she continues. The therapist pressed her on how unhealthy that is to continue, regardless of what she decides with he. The 3rd session she said she feels pressured to make a decision and she still needs time. She still said she wasn't seeing him but I found out she did. So she's still lying. She barely apologizes and gets mad when I talk about moving on. I said I would open new doors of opportunity for myself while closing the one on her. She immediately jumped to me seeing other women and shut down during therapy as a result.
I want her back, but I don't want to be plan B. So Im trying to stop contact but we FaceTime with our daughter every night, I'm not used to not seeing her (she's splitting time at home and at my in-laws where my W is staying). It's hard to not chase when I talk to her everyday. I've been trying to talk to my daughter with little to no conversation with my W. But I'm also concerned because since she shuts down and runs away from problems, I'm afraid she will take the NC as a sign to run to the OM. I have always been a fixer, wanting to fix things, and my W had said to stop trying to tell her how to feel (I need to get better at this...I've tried talking to her about the affair fog). Me telling her about is a failure and pushes her away. I've spoken to a lawyer briefly and know the basics of our situation but even she said it's early to file at this point. Therapy was to a) figure out if we want a divorce and b) mediate there to save money. There had been no mediating attempts by her at all. I asked numerous times for her to pickup her stuff and she didn't. So I bagged all her clothes and again for weeks didn't get them but now she has. She still has lots and lots of stuff at the house but has made no plans to get them. She is making no effort to really end this so it makes me think she is taking time to think...while still seeing this OM.
Advice: so many lies, so much hurt. but I still love her and we have a 3 year old. I don't know if it will work but I want to try. It seems like she don't close the door on us and what's to test drive the OM. What do I do? Move on? Fight? Again, it's been 6 weeks and the last couples therapy I said I was done and canceled the next appointment. The therapist urged me not to and booked an appointment for two weeks out so I could think about it. The last session was the most productive but she won't stop with the OM. I can't wait forever even though I want to.
Is this affair fog or is she really done? What do info to move forward knowing I talk to her almost daily for our 3 year old? Should I continue going to couples therapy (I will continue IC)? Please any advice or help!
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Sorry man, I know this is tough. But you will find the advice and support you are looking for here.
I would stop couple therapy, immediately. Say something to her like: "I feel like couples therapy is just going through the motions at this point. I have decided to stop it. I will continue with IC. So much has happened I need to try to get it all sorted out and decide what to do next for myself."
Keep your conversations with her only about 3 year-old. Nothing else. Avoid R talks at all costs. If she does start one, listen and validate.
I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?
Likely she is keeping you around because OM is just using her as a piece of meat, deep down she knows this, and knows at some point she will need to come back to you, her Plan B. The best thing I can see you doing at this point is to take her Plan B away. I would highly consider retaining a lawyer and filing for D. I think your case is a pretty good one, you'll definitely get 50/50 custody, maybe more if her leaving is considered abandonment.
Hang in there, I know you are hurting, but it does get better. Just remember: BELIEVE NOTHING SHE SAYS.
I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?
I guess I'm trying to save us. I keep reading about the affair fog and if she is in it, which a lot of things sound like she is, her behavior is typical. Meaning, wanting to keep me as plan B until she's out of the fog. But I could be just telling myself that.
Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back. So filing for divorce isn't following that plan. Why file now if I can later? To scare her into reality?
Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back.
With all due respect, you are probably reading the things you want to read / see / apply to your situation - which is oh so common for the LBS.. They come here looking for a magic bullet / quick fix.
This isnt a quick fix - you say time is on your side - but this could be a marathon... Read a bit more on some of these posts - all are oh some similar - but few come to a quick fix - a lot of situations are 5 years / 7 years plus !
Most LBS want to stand by their vows / partner -myself included 14 months ago.
But there are 2 things to consider here ( IMO )
1) - you are also in a fog - like most LBS are - You still love your WW and want take the rough with the smooth - Which is great ( and the way it should be ) - but once your fog lifts, you may realise that she was flawed - yes.. Sorry to be blunt, but your WW was far from perfect and not the great partner you thought you married... The red flags were probably there 9 years ago and you overlooked them ( also guilty ) .. The fact she has cheating on you shows she has faults - and even if you did try again, whats to stop her looking around the next time she gets bored. If you get to the point where you see this, you may realise there is so much more to life than a WW who doesnt even stick to her vows
2) You are 38 - The same age i was when my ex went WW.. Do you really want to sit around until you are 45 plus - wasting years of your life waiting for a WW - who may never return - and even if she did, there would always be that "niggle" .. You could do so much more with your life
Drop the rope and start working on you - there are lots of posts on this.. Be the best version of you that you can be - for you... Not for WW
Hi KTO,
I feel your pain. I've been there and done that. It was about 2 years ago that my sitch started.
I would stop all your pursuit. I believe your daily face time is pursuit. But most of the people I've shared this thought with tend to think that they must Facetime their kids every day and thus interact with their WAS. I probably won't change your mind there but you are going to limit your healing and growth this way.
I have never competed for a woman. If she doesn't see what's good in you then let her choose someone else. But you sticking around, pursuing her throughout all of this is showing her that you will tolerate disrespect, that you will lower your standards for her.
Remove the pressure. The therapist urged you to continue booking, therapists need clients. They do a noble job, but they must stay in business if they are to help everyone. I would stop going. I wouldn't explain my decision. If asked by your W, you could simply say "you know why".
I have always been a fixer, wanting to fix things, and my W had said to stop trying to tell her how to feel (I need to get better at this...I've tried talking to her about the affair fog).
I did this too. You are being logical with a low emotional IQ right now. Hear her words.
I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?
I guess I'm trying to save us. I keep reading about the affair fog and if she is in it, which a lot of things sound like she is, her behavior is typical. Meaning, wanting to keep me as plan B until she's out of the fog. But I could be just telling myself that.
Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back. So filing for divorce isn't following that plan. Why file now if I can later? To scare her into reality?
No, you file now so you can move forward. I am staunchly anti-D, unless a spouse is in an active affair. When that is the case, and they are unabashed about it "Yes, I am still in contact with OP and no I won't stop." then what alternatives does the LBS have?
So absolutely, do not file until you are ready to file. I guess if you aren't ready, my only question would be: if your W leaving and refusing to stop the affair doesn't make you ready, what would?
As far as the affair fog, stop fixating on that. It doesn't matter. Some lying cheaters (and she IS a lying cheater) come around and break through the fog. Some never do. I know a couple of people that cheated, left, eventually married their AP and remain married until this day. This is very rare because if they'll cheat with you they'll cheat on you. But for some the affair fog is their new reality. You keep mentioning it like one day soon she will wake up and boom! The fog will be lifted. That is a terrible thing to put your hope into.
Affair fog. No affair fog. None of it matters. You need to be stopping all pursuit and pressure (including MC). You need to be going out and GAL. You need to stay in IC to deal with your own issues, 180 on bad behaviors, and become the best version of yourself that you can be. And you need to DETACH! Stop letting her words and actions affect you emotionally. And for crying out loud, STOP talking to her about all of this. You mention talking to her about the affair fog. REALLY? That is like confronting a heroin user once they are already high.
Read DR. Put it into practice. Move on without her. Eventually she might come around. Likely it will be after you've already moved on and no longer are waiting for her, but that will be her loss.
I feel for you. As others mentioned, it can be a marathon. My W had a rough childhood as well, gave me ILYBNILWY, and was or is in an EA. BD was in Sept and I've seen just about 0 self reflection on her end. I'm still blamed for all her woes. Its been hard mentally to stick it out this long. Are you ready for it? The people here are with you either route you take.
I too looked for a magic bullet. I still do. Time and change are the bullets here.
If she does return, do you want her back?
I have young ones as well, make sure you yourself are the strong parent. Your child needs one through this.
If I could pass anything over to you, its to not Google about her problems, rather, work on your own. I learned things like Anxious/avoidant attachments, covert narcissists, BPD, passive aggressive behavior and so on. All it does is increase anxiety, remove hope and build resentment. All time I wish I devoted more to boundaries and validation. If your W is like mime, she rarely talks about her feelings, which makes validating a challenge requiring alot of effort.
Good luck Kto.
If I could pass anything over to you, its to not Google about her problems, rather, work on your own.
This is a great bit of advice. You cannot change her, and you cannot control her. Google all you want about the affair fog etc, but it will not change her thought process or feelings - i can pretty much garantee that - i tried!!! before i found this site, i am ashamed to say i was stupid enough ( yes it was stupid ) to google all about her state of mind (affair fog / MLC etc )and share it with her - it made zero difference because i was trying to apply logic to her emotional state of mind.. Your WW is on a high with OM and you are in the way - so let her self destruct and start to work on you.
If I could pass anything over to you, its to not Google about her problems, rather, work on your own.
This is a great bit of advice. You cannot change her, and you cannot control her. Google all you want about the affair fog etc, but it will not change her thought process or feelings - i can pretty much garantee that - i tried!!! before i found this site, i am ashamed to say i was stupid enough ( yes it was stupid ) to google all about her state of mind (affair fog / MLC etc )and share it with her - it made zero difference because i was trying to apply logic to her emotional state of mind.. Your WW is on a high with OM and you are in the way - so let her self destruct and start to work on you.
A lot of us make that mistake. I came to this site specifically because I found a thread that talked about the effects of anti-depressants on the WW mindset. Searching for causes are cheeseless tunnels.
If I could pass anything over to you, its to not Google about her problems, rather, work on your own.
This is a great bit of advice. You cannot change her, and you cannot control her. Google all you want about the affair fog etc, but it will not change her thought process or feelings - i can pretty much garantee that - i tried!!! before i found this site, i am ashamed to say i was stupid enough ( yes it was stupid ) to google all about her state of mind (affair fog / MLC etc )and share it with her - it made zero difference because i was trying to apply logic to her emotional state of mind.. Your WW is on a high with OM and you are in the way - so let her self destruct and start to work on you.
A lot of us make that mistake. I came to this site specifically because I found a thread that talked about the effects of anti-depressants on the WW mindset. Searching for causes are cheeseless tunnels.
[quote=Steve85][quote=MrBrside][quote=Core]
Anti-depressants on WW mindset? What do you mean. She has been on anti depressants for a little while now. Obviously, they didn't help.
What do you mean about anti depressants on WW mindset? She started done about 3 months ago but well into her affair.
It could be the anti-depressants or any number of other factors on her end. The problem as a LBS is that we think we can figure out the problem and then fix it, to get our spouse back. I don't think the vets have seen a case yet where that works. Therapists themselves can't counsel their spouses back. The WW needs to want to come back on their own and seek their own help.
What's worked for some here is to identify their own problems and address them. Sometimes a WW/WAS sees this change and comes back, other times they are too far gone in their own issues. So many sitchs sound familiar....W had a troubled childhood, became avoidant in the M and left or had an affair. This is her problem to work through and its quite hard to not get involved.
I read somewhere that the more anxious we are, the more avoidant an avoidant spouse becomes. If you become more secure, she could return closer to baseline. If you become more secure whats more important is its better for you and the little one.
She first said the affair lasted 3 months, then I asked it again and she said it was 6. But then I found videos she made for him that went back 13-14 months...all the way back to the ILYBNILWY statement.
It never ceases to amaze me at how cheaters will lie, lie and lie some more. Why in the world did she think that cheating "only" 3 months was better than 6 or 14? Like cheating isn't bad enough! Anyway we've seen this pattern many times here. You can expect continuous lying from now on. You literally cannot believe anything she says. At some point she may hit rock bottom and repent of all of her cheating and lying and turn over a new leaf, but that is way down the road.
She left the house on D-Day.
Good! Do not let her back! And you stay put! The worst thing an LBS can do is leave the house to the WAS, we see it happen a lot and it just makes BD even worse for them.
We talk daily and we have gone back to couples therapy.
Like Steve said you should stop both. She's only going to MC to check off her list of "things I did to try and save the M but only proved it really was over." And talking daily and being chummy is only going to plant you firmly in the "Plan B" category.
In the 2nd couples therapy I said I don't accept that she's seeing him and I will move forward without her if she continues.
Don't make idle threats, it makes you look powerless. She has indeed continued, so what are you going to do now? What does "move forward without her" mean exactly? That's what you need to do.
She barely apologizes and gets mad when I talk about moving on.
She is a wayward and waywards can be very defiant. Read as many of Sandi's posts as you can, she was a wayward and she talks a lot about the mindset.
So Im trying to stop contact but we FaceTime with our daughter every night
Do continue to FT D, but don't talk to W other than passing the phone/ tablet to D.
But I'm also concerned because since she shuts down and runs away from problems, I'm afraid she will take the NC as a sign to run to the OM.
She doesn't need to run to where she already is. She's with OM and any pursuit on your part is just going to look weak and pathetic. You want to be strong, independent, and unaccepting of her wayward behavior.
my W had said to stop trying to tell her how to feel (I need to get better at this...I've tried talking to her about the affair fog).
You can't use logic and reason to get through to her. She is caught in feelings and emotions right now, nothing you can do will help other than leaving her alone to sort this out.
Is this affair fog or is she really done? What do info to move forward knowing I talk to her almost daily for our 3 year old? Should I continue going to couples therapy (I will continue IC)? Please any advice or help!
For now she is done. That might change with time. For now you should detach and leave her alone. Do continue IC. Do not continue MC/ CT.
What do you mean. She has been on anti depressants for a little while now. Obviously, they didn't help.
What he means is we all search for reasons to explain our WAS's behavior. Is it menopause? Is it anti-depressants? Did I do something wrong? Is it an affair fog? Is it a midlife crisis? The bottom line is you don't know, we don't know and even your wife doesn't know. No one knows. And you will never know. So try to accept that diagnosing, trouble-shooting and curing are not the answers here. Let go of the need to know "why".
What do you mean about anti depressants on WW mindset? She started done about 3 months ago but well into her affair.
Again, this doesn't matter. My point was I came here convinced that my WW's problem was her ADs. It wasn't. It isn't. Causes are not important. DBing well is important. Detach! Stop all pressure and pursuit. GAL like a mad man. Seriously, every minute you aren't with your 3 year-old you are busy! BUSY BUSY BUSY
And of course focus on yourself, making self-improvements, become the best version of you that you can be.
Let go of the need to know "why".
Yep. You'll probably never know why. I'll share a paragraph of my farewell letter to my ex--which I burned instead of sending. Context: She refused to update her FB status to indicate we were a couple after 2.5yrs, and In the same week she told me we were forever, she told two acquaintances we were friends and an in-law who has the hots for her (but she definitely does not feel them back) that we were "broken up but talking". I caught her in a couple lies over that last one--
"I forgive you. I don’t know if you were ashamed of me, or were telling them fake news about me, or wanted to be flirted with, liked to silo your life, or didn’t want to share about us in case we failed. Your misleading side makes it hard to know. It was stressful trying to work it out when I was with you, but I’m not anymore. I let go. This says more about you than me. I hope you live a life in the future you’re proud of sharing with the world."
First, I appreciate all of the advice. It's nice to know I have somewhere to turn. I'm trying to end contact as much as possible but then I get pulled back in. Just today she texted me asking to come to gymnastics (for my daughter) tomorrow. I waited hours before I texted her back but I caved. I feel like I'm depriving my daughter if I say no. Obviously I have alternative motives too but shouldn't I put my daughter first? She constantly asks for me when she's with her and the vice verse. It's all hard.
Also, my IC said she thinks I should go to MC but individually while alternating weeks. The MC has agreed to meet me without her but I haven't asked him his thoughts. He honestly is a nice, caring guy who continues to tell her seeing the OM right now is wrong and unhealthy, regardless of what she wants to do with me. I do think he pushes her a bit and if I'm not there then she won't get pissed off and shut down like she always does when I'm there.
Thoughts?
Just today she texted me asking to come to gymnastics (for my daughter) tomorrow. I waited hours before I texted her back...
Good job stopping and thinking before replying.
but I caved. I feel like I'm depriving my daughter if I say no. shouldn't I put my daughter first?
I rarely turn down spending time with my kids. I didn't divorce them!
Obviously I have alternative motives too
That line troubles me. Could you drop those for two hours and just focus on your daughter? If it helps, you could sit apart from her. I sometimes did that when the D was fresh between my ex-wife and I. My conversations were limited to a few words--usually a comment at the end about our child's performance.
I do have to ask, you say you love her and want to save things, but she is actively in an affair. One she refuses to stop. At this point what are you trying to save?
I guess I'm trying to save us. I keep reading about the affair fog and if she is in it, which a lot of things sound like she is, her behavior is typical. Meaning, wanting to keep me as plan B until she's out of the fog. But I could be just telling myself that.
Everything I read and learn in therapy is time is on my side. I guess I'm taking it hoping she will come back. So filing for divorce isn't following that plan. Why file now if I can later? To scare her into reality?
No, you file now so you can move forward. I am staunchly anti-D, unless a spouse is in an active affair. When that is the case, and they are unabashed about it "Yes, I am still in contact with OP and no I won't stop." then what alternatives does the LBS have?
So absolutely, do not file until you are ready to file. I guess if you aren't ready, my only question would be: if your W leaving and refusing to stop the affair doesn't make you ready, what would?
I wish a thousand times over OP that I had this site and advice when I found out about my husband's affair. It would have saved me so much confusion, torture, mistakes, and gotten me off the hopium. I am a fixer also. And I thought I could persuade my husband into doing what's right. Listen, if that were true, I would have the happiest damn marriage on the planet.
My husband had a two year EA/PA with one of my good friends. So I know well the pain and shock you are feeling. It's the worst. But it does get better.
For affair fog to clear, they must be in absolute no contact and she would have to go through withdrawals. which aren't pretty. An A is a literal dopamine addiction. And even then, it doesn't mean you will be together again. My husband, three years later, still claims they had an amazing connection and I think he wishes they could be together (she went back to her husband) or he could find someone just like her. Puke. It also took him forever to end it. I heard every excuse, "we just need to wean off of each other."
Get off the roller coaster.
Right now work on you. Loving you. Understanding you are a catch and you will be happy no matter what. Detach from the crazy. Don't let it affect every area of your life. She has become a lying cheater and she will lie and cheat you to get what she believes she needs. Be careful.
The only way for you to be together again is for you to stand up for yourself. To completely detach and move forward. If a cheater gets a whiff that you are in the wings just waiting for them, you're screwed. I was a Plan B for way too long. with any luck the bottom will fall out of this relationship once it hits the light of day.
But those are all if's. Focus on you. Take the advice here. It will either save your marriage or save you. This site has been a lifesaver for me. Keep reading and keep posting. Go to Cadet's thread above and READ everything. I would pay attention to Sandi's rules.
Good luck my friend.
Knowing my situation and talking with my daughter everyday, therefore seeing/talking a little with my wife, what boundaries should I be setting?
W doesn't live here. Most of her stuff is here...except her clothes which I bagged up and threw into the garage. She finally picked those up after weeks. She still texts logistics and now asked to go to gymnastics tonight.
What boundaries do I need to set?
Thanks to all of you again!
Knowing my situation and talking with my daughter everyday, therefore seeing/talking a little with my wife, what boundaries should I be setting?
Personal experience on this - whatever boundaries you try to enforce, the WW will try and push them... I'm sure many get a kick out of still trying to control / test you.
When Facetiming keep it about your daughter.. Unfortunetly your WW will be on the other end, so she will always have some control. If did reference this in my sitch - once my WW moved out, i facetimed my girls on a daily basis ( on the days they werent with me ) for the first couple of weeks... But soon realised that the WW was calling the shots on when we spoke, how long we spoke and that the WW was on the phone more than my girls - She was still trying to control me using Facetime - My solution was to just stop Facetiming. I can live without seeing my girls every day - I just make the most of the time when they are at mine.
As for boundaries - Your WW doesn't respect you. So its important to stick to boundaries that you can actually enforce. Its pointless having boundaries if you crumble in a day - that doesnt build respect and makes you look weak.
You also need to understand that having boundaries will probably annoy her / make it seem like you are pushing her futher away. - She is lost anyway, but your conscience will be telling you the exact opposite of what people write here. She will take, take take and cake eat whenever you allow her - you need to be strong.
In my sitch, my main boundary is minimal contact and only about the children. I refuse to allow her to step foot into my house - ever. This drives her insane. She is curious as to what i've done to the house and has even "insisted as the gilrs mother she should be allowed to check the house etc" - but i will never back down from this. - Re general chit chat - Checkout girl chat - A polite hi / bye for the sake of the children - Re all logistics about kids - text only. I totally ignore anything not child related. If the phone rings, i refuse to answer. This is usually a message - "answer your phone" - i never will and she knows this, but even 12 months later she trys to push my boundaries. You really need to understand this is a long term situation and you need to be strong - or she will chew you up.
First, I appreciate all of the advice. It's nice to know I have somewhere to turn. I'm trying to end contact as much as possible but then I get pulled back in. Just today she texted me asking to come to gymnastics (for my daughter) tomorrow. I waited hours before I texted her back but I caved. I feel like I'm depriving my daughter if I say no. Obviously I have alternative motives too but shouldn't I put my daughter first? She constantly asks for me when she's with her and the vice verse. It's all hard.
Also, my IC said she thinks I should go to MC but individually while alternating weeks. The MC has agreed to meet me without her but I haven't asked him his thoughts. He honestly is a nice, caring guy who continues to tell her seeing the OM right now is wrong and unhealthy, regardless of what she wants to do with me. I do think he pushes her a bit and if I'm not there then she won't get pissed off and shut down like she always does when I'm there.
Thoughts?
I'd be a gymnastics for my daughter. Period. Regardless of what my WAS said or did. I was far from a perfect father, but one thing I am proud of that I got right: I never missed my D's events or games. Not once.
Also, my IC said she thinks I should go to MC but individually while alternating weeks. The MC has agreed to meet me without her but I haven't asked him his thoughts. He honestly is a nice, caring guy who continues to tell her seeing the OM right now is wrong and unhealthy, regardless of what she wants to do with me. I do think he pushes her a bit and if I'm not there then she won't get pissed off and shut down like she always does when I'm there.
Thoughts?
Sounds like you're searching for the magic elixir to fix this. It doesn't exist. Forget about her counseling, forget about some counselor "pushing" her and that's going to do anything.
You should go to all your kids events. You should not facetime. You should list out your 180s and get to work on your personal growth. You should list out some GAL ideas and get started with that. Stop pursuing her altogether.
Sounds like you're searching for the magic elixir to fix this. It doesn't exist. Forget about her counseling, forget about some counselor "pushing" her and that's going to do anything.
You should go to all your kids events. You should not facetime. You should list out your 180s and get to work on your personal growth. You should list out some GAL ideas and get started with that. Stop pursuing her altogether.
I don't understand how alternating weeks with the MC isn't smart? He knows us both (we saw him well before d-day while she was in the affair...she want honest there either but now it's known). I don't have to be in the room with my W while using a therapist who knows both of us. IC is a good idea so why isn't this? My IC doesn't know her.
I think the point is do you think her attending MC by herself every other week is going to "fix" her?
I think the point is do you think her attending MC by herself every other week is going to "fix" her?
No but she has stated she has a lot of work to do on herself. She is seeing her IC in addition to MC. And the last MC session, the night after her IC session, she was more emotionally available than ever before. I feel like the two together will help her out if her fog while keeping boundaries between us.
I am seeing the MC tonight by myself to see what he thinks. Before I proposed Tgi's he said coming together will help us process this for the sake of our daughter, at he very least.
I feel like the two together will help her out if her fog while keeping boundaries between us.
What we are telling you is that this is dangerous expectation. No expectations. Assume the worst, hope for the best.
As I said before, sometimes the fog becomes the new normal. Sitting around expecting she is imminently going to snap out of it will trip you up from what you should be doing: GAL, 180s, detaching.
And the last MC session, the night after her IC session, she was more emotionally available than ever before. I feel like the two together will help her out if her fog while keeping boundaries between us.
Sorry - But you are chasing rainbows. Your wife is an addict - pure and simple. You are using logic - in a situation saturated with emotion. You may have felt that she was emotionally available, but it would be short term. In the 3 months i lived with my WW, there were odd days when she would ask for a hug, or admit she had lied.. 12 hours later and she was gone again. It was as and when it suited here - cake eating.
KTO,
it's just quite strange and something is off. It's not MC when you both go alone. Why would you have the same IC as your W? What benefit do you see to this?
I saw you mentioned that you think this will help her out of her fog...I don't think it will. I think time and space will though.
I also saw on page 1 therapy is to figure it out if you want a divorce and to mediate? This just doesn't make sense either.
Before I proposed Tgi's he said coming together will help us process this for the sake of our daughter, at he very least.
What does this mean?
KTO,
it's just quite strange and something is off. It's not MC when you both go alone. Why would you have the same IC as your W? What benefit do you see to this?
I saw you mentioned that you think this will help her out of her fog...I don't think it will. I think time and space will though.
I also saw on page 1 therapy is to figure it out if you want a divorce and to mediate? This just doesn't make sense either.
Before I proposed Tgi's he said coming together will help us process this for the sake of our daughter, at he very least.
What does this mean?
It means he wanted us to communicate so resentment, anger, etc would go away. I thought he meant process this to be able get there. But you are right, she doesn't really process anything and she still is giving me trickle truths and/or lies.
she doesn't really process anything and she still is giving me trickle truths and/or lies.
You hit the nail on the head.. Typical WW behaviour..
Communication will not make anything go away - communication isnt the issue. The issue is that your wife has gone. Get used to the lies - 99% of what she says now will be lies..
Alls you can do is drop the rope and work on YOU - not for her - For YOU.
It means he wanted us to communicate so resentment, anger, etc would go away. I thought he meant process this to be able get there. But you are right, she doesn't really process anything..
You have anger and resentment to work through? I guess that's natural when she's cheated on you and continues to cheat on you. I've let go of most of my anger and resentment in IC and have been "no contact" during the process. I truly don't see any benefits in expressing to her "I'm angry at you for xxx" or "I'm resentful at you for yyy". When I did that was attachment--a desire for her to finally get it and apologize and make it all better. But even when I was there I realized if she wasn't in a place to say "Omigosh! What have I been doing?! I'm going to work for it.." she also wasn't in a place to hear me! It'd just be another criticism to add to her pile, another point against reconciliation. If by some oddity we reconciled a third time, I'd set boundaries based on the past, even then I doubt I'd vent about it. Not much left to vent.
But you are right, she doesn't really process anything and she still is giving me trickle truths and/or lies.
OIC. You meant you're focusing on her instead of you and want these sessions to fix her, and you're beginning to see the futility--she won't process and let go of anger and resentment until she's ready to. Right now she may want to keep it, so it's easier to lie to you and enjoy her affair partner.
To update you all. I went to the MC tonight by myself and he said end the couples therapy. There is no point to work on us. He advised me to tell her and to set boundaries. He will see me individually since he knows our situation. I'm hurt and scared. But here I go...I have to try to move forward. Thank you all for your support.
I agree with your therapist. And it’s going to be the best option in regards to getting her back. She has to respect you before she will love you. And taking back your power is one way to get her respect. Your goal should be to get her to feel like she’s going to lose you.
Be strong and come here for advice when you aren’t sure what to do. We have some great vets here that will get you pointed in the right direction.
To update you all. I went to the MC tonight by myself and he said end the couples therapy. There is no point to work on us. He advised me to tell her and to set boundaries. He will see me individually since he knows our situation. I'm hurt and scared. But here I go...I have to try to move forward. Thank you all for your support.
It is hurtful and scary. But it gets better and you can do this. You will find a strength in you that you didn't know you had. Keep coming here and posting. There is so much good help here.
To update you all. I went to the MC tonight by myself and he said end the couples therapy. There is no point to work on us. He advised me to tell her and to set boundaries. He will see me individually since he knows our situation. I'm hurt and scared. But here I go...I have to try to move forward. Thank you all for your support.
It is hurtful and scary. But it gets better and you can do this. You will find a strength in you that you didn't know you had. Keep coming here and posting. There is so much good help here.
I hope it gets better. I want to reach out to her so bad. That anxious feeling in my stomach has come back like it's d-day all over again.
I hope it gets better. I want to reach out to her so bad. That anxious feeling in my stomach has come back like it's d-day all over again.
You need to start working on you.
When not with your daughter, focus on what you can control.
Start to get your affairs in order ( financnes etc )
Member of a gym ? join or hit the gym
Hobbies - what did you like doing before you met WW - do it agin - or take up new hobbies
Reading ? educate your mind
Keep yourself busy doing productive things.
Take a deep breath, breathe. Nothing earth-shattering has occurred. Your therapist simply has detected the same thing folks here have been telling you, that she was just going through the motions with MC. The fact is that MC gave you a false sense of hope. You felt like, and even expressed here, that as long as she was attending that you felt there was a chance.
The truth is that there is always a chance. That is what DBing is about. But that chance is not helped by MC. In fact, I'd argue that when you have a WAS MC actually does more harm than good. It is just like saying "ILY" to a WAS. Every time you say "ILY" it reminds them that they do not feel the same way. Likely MC was doing the same thing for her. It was reinforcing to her the fact that she isn't into the MR anymore and doesn't want to save it.
So one day you may look back and see that this was a turning point in your sitch. As much anxiety has it has induced for you now, one day you may realize the wisdom in this decision.
kt, what you need to remember is that your W met and fell for a guy that was off doing his own thing, years ago. But overtime your lives became so intertwined that you lose that mojo that attracted her in the beginning. That is what DBing aims to do. To reawaken that guy she fell for. That is what GAL is all about. It reminds the WAS that their LBS was an exciting, thriving individual with a whole world that didn't include them. Imagine how unattractive it would be that after one date a person was immediately and hopelessly attached to someone. That someone would collapse under the weight of that kind of pressure. Well MR can get to that point point as well. Slowly, over time, as the intertwining becomes more and more, so to does the pressure. It is kind of like boiling a frog by slowly increasing the temperature of the water. Over time that temperature becomes hot enought to boil the frog. Over time, the pressure building on being codependent builds until one spouse collapses underneath the weight of that pressure.
So GAL.Keep doing IC and improve yourself. Learn about self-differentation and detachment so that you can become that healthy, functioning individual that originally attracted your W.
Most of all, stop holding on so tightly. Let go of the rope. Give her the time and space she needs. Remove ALL pressure and do not pursue her. Remember, humans are strange creatures. We want what we can't have. And reject things that are too easily obtained. Become the former, not the latter for her.
I hope it gets better. I want to reach out to her so bad. That anxious feeling in my stomach has come back like it's d-day all over again.
That anxious feeling is totally normal. When people say this will be a rollercoaster, its no joke. The ups and downs can be crazy making at times. It does get better. Quicker if you put the work in. I thought early on that the only thing that would make me feel better is to reconcile however after some time working on myself, I'm feeling better than before BD and am excited about either future. With or without W.
What's helped the most is time, followed by GAL. More thoughts:
Set achievable goals and nail them
Exercise, if you do already then try something new. Spinning, swimming, classes, mma.
Keep up on IC. Root out your issues.
Understand what you did wrong in your M so it doesnt happen again.
Try new foods
When you spend time on yourself, appreciate it
Chase your anxiety, dont let it chase you
Religion, if you have one, get some focus on it
Read Ready2Changes recommended books
How do I detach? I'm still wanting to contact my W who is still in contact with the OM. I need to work on myself. I have told my W I'm setting boundaries because it's time to work on me. Basically, no contact unless it's for my daughter. But it's hard, I lost my best friend...even though she isn't my friend if she had an affair for a year.
Thanks again to all of you. This forum is very helpful.
FYI, your threads are going to get merged. job and/or cadet will explain it.
Have you read the detachment thread? Also google "self-differentiation in marriage".
I have told my W I'm setting boundaries because it's time to work on me. Basically, no contact unless it's for my daughter.
The typical losing LBS playbook is to announce boundaries they have not thought through--then regret the damage they cause and look weak by failing to enforce them. Guilty. So let's ensure you're ahead of the curve. Did you announce the boundary is YOU will not contact her, SHE should not contact you, or BOTH? If she should not contact you except about the kids, what consequences will you use to enforce your boundary?
How do I detach? I'm still wanting to contact my W who is still in contact with the OM. I need to work on myself.
Through some mix of GAL and finding distractions when you can't. At first GAL is like pulling teeth, but soon you find you forget your situation for parts of or during the whole GAL, and eventually GAL is something you look forward to and takes up the headspace where you'd previously have been missing your cheating partner.
PS - Your threads will get merged. One thread per person. It changes over only at 10 pages / 100 posts.
I have told my W I'm setting boundaries because it's time to work on me. Basically, no contact unless it's for my daughter.
The typical losing LBS playbook is to announce boundaries they have not thought through--then regret the damage they cause and look weak by failing to enforce them. Guilty. So let's ensure you're ahead of the curve. Did you announce the boundary is YOU will not contact her, SHE should not contact you, or BOTH? If she should not contact you except about the kids, what consequences will you use to enforce your boundary?
I haven't officially laid out the boundaries yet. I just told her we should only have contact regarding our daughter. I don't know what I should do if she contacted me. Ideally, I would say I don't feel comfortable with her crossing the boundary. I don't know what other ones I need?
PS - Your threads will get merged. One thread per person. It changes over only at 10 pages / 100 posts.
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't realize. Thank you.
[quote=CWarrior][quote=kto626]I have told my W I'm setting boundaries because it's time to work on me. Basically, no contact unless it's for my daughter.
The typical losing LBS playbook is to announce boundaries they have not thought through--then regret the damage they cause and look weak by failing to enforce them. Guilty. So let's ensure you're ahead of the curve. Did you announce the boundary is YOU will not contact her, SHE should not contact you, or BOTH? If she should not contact you except about the kids, what consequences will you use to enforce your boundary?
I haven't officially laid out the boundaries yet. I just told her we should only have contact regarding our daughter. I don't know what I should do if she contacted me. Ideally, I would say I don't feel comfortable with her crossing the boundary. I don't know what other ones I need?
PS - Your threads will get merged. One thread per person. It changes over only at 10 pages / 100 posts.
YUP
The other day my W asked to come get our dog to take him for a walk (first time in 6 weeks). I wasn't home but later I noticed she went upstairs and grabbed somethings. In the past, I asked her to tell me if she was going in the house...after all she left and continues to see the OM. Should I reprogram the garage opener so she can't come in the house? I feel like I set a boundary and she crossed it.
Should I reprogram the garage opener so she can't come in the house? I feel like I set a boundary and she crossed it.
Hi Kto626,
I see--so you view the home as "your space", and feel violated when she enters? The only issue is the home is probably "shared space" unless she's formally agreed the house or some portion of it is yours to exclusively occupy or you have a restraining order or some other special condition applies. I don't see you having much luck enforcing your preference on your wife. If you change the locks, she could hire a locksmith.
My ex-wife and I did create a formal agreement within 30 days of my first bringing up divorce. She got exclusive occupation of the shared space, but in return paid me rent until we sold the home.
She doesn't live in the home anymore. She moved out on BD.
She doesn't live in the home anymore. She moved out on BD.
I get that. If you want to know for sure, you could call your attorney. We all live in different jurisdictions with slightly different rules for the situation. I suspect your attorney could assess the details and tell you exactly your rights and recourses in less than 15 minutes. Then, proceeding is easy.
Hi kto, sorry you are here!
First i would suggest you read my sitch. It is quite similar.
Reading is always good. Sandi on WW is VERY good!
You have a huge amount of advice her in just a couple of days.
Take your time, so far you are doing good but detachment will take a LONG time.
Ending MC is good (even if going separately). MC is always a form of pursuit.
GAL! it is hard in the beginning (I still need to actively remember to GAL everyday) but it really helps!
Only you are responsible for your own happiness!
About your daugher, I REALLY feel for you!
The worst day of my life was not BD it was some time in December when I realized the effect on my kids, not seeing them every day and how I was no longer in full control of their wellbeing. It is really hard to accept and for me I will probably always be angry at W for how she treated this whole mess with regards to the kids.
However do make sure to talk to her (daughter) about this! Tell her whats happening. Be very practical about things.
My IC told me something good though, the most important part for kids is that they have both parents physically and emotionally available. Not every day, maybe not even every week but over time. So allow your D to have her time with W, you have no control over that anymore. I Highly suggest you stop FaceTime every day. W is in control and it might even make things worse for you D.
She doesn't live in the home anymore. She moved out on BD.
Do you co-own the house? Prenup?
If she is in anyway entitled to the house then you can not keep her out. Simple as that.
This is a marathon!
That does sound similar to my situation. The house is in my name and she's never put a penny towards it. Unfortunately, that does really matter in many states in the US. So with that said I won't lock the doors or change the locks.
I'm still reading through all of your posts but how did you guys turnout? I'm struggling to detach and not talk. I'm torn about the FaceTime because I've always been my daughters main support (with my W always going out on weekends) and I want to at least talk to her. It may be a change I need to make soon but we are 6 weeks in.
Today, after telling my W to only contact about our daughter if necessary, she texted asking how she was. Then asking me about my work. I swear she's trying to reel me back in. I didn't respond to the work question but I did answer the question about my daughter.
She has said so many things to reel me in. "I'm not sure if I want a divorce", "I'm don't want to be with you right now", when the MC asked if there could be an us, "Not right now". She keeps leaving the door slightly open. That's what makes things hard.
Any tips you have Mumin would help. Thank you.
I'm still reading through all of your posts but how did you guys turnout?
It was a rollercoaster. She moved out on BD, months 1-2 we had limited interaction, months 3-4 I got that coveted second chance (she offered reconciliation living separately), months 5-7 I got on-board with that. Ultimately, I couldn't tolerate continued screaming, instability, and not admitting to others we were a couple.
I can vouch for personal 180s, GAL, self-compassion, delaying emotional decisions, and validation. These techniques are groundbreaking in romantic relationships and beyond. I wish I applied them sooner.
Turning around relationships is slow, worth it more when kids are involved. I should've cut the line sooner. We see--what?--maybe 40% reconciliation? The techniques are helpful no matter the outcome. I'm thankful I found this forum--and to AnotherStander, Ben, HopeCA, Job, Kristin, LBH, May, Ocean, R2C, Steve, Unchien, etc. My life is happier now and I'm content with my decision to move onward and upward.
That is reassuring and good advice. I've just started to let go of the rope and realize it will be a long hall. I'm realizing (slightly) that dropping the rope is for me and not to get her back. The MC said yesterday that she's mentally unstable and he could tell for a little while (we saw him for months before BD) I am now going to make him my IC because I told W I'm no longer going with her...which means she won't go to him but is saying she will continue with her IC...we will see.
This site is a Godsend. I'm so thankful the vets are here for us all. Thank you for what you all do!
Rough night sleep. Can't keep my rain from replaying the videos I found that she made him. I wish I never saw those.
Is 40% reconciliation an accurate number after an affair? I thought it would be less.
Today's goal...detach, detach, detach. Even though I want to reach out so bad. I also need to think about FaceTime every night with our daughter. It's just another way to hear her voice and that makes it harder to detach. But then I miss my daughter if I don't (we split 50/50 time).
One more thing, Last week at our MC (the last one cuz I said I'm not going anymore), she told the MC she was writing a letter to give me because she communicates best that way (otherwise she gets defensive and angry in person). I haven't gotten anything. I asked about it, which I shouldn't have, a few days ago (before I told her I'm going to focus on me and end MC and set boundaries) and she said she was still writing it. Honestly, I want it to see what it says. My guess is she rewrites it every time her mood changes. Remember, she has told me she misses me and that she doesn't want to be with me within a few hours of each other. The R talk has stopped, and it was mainly at the beginning but I think she heard me say I wanted her back so she was just solidifying me as her plan b do she can go test drive the OM.
I feel dumb wanting her back still. Detach, detach, detach.
Is 40% reconciliation an accurate number after an affair? I thought it would be less.
You are still focusing on the odds of getting her back after an affair. I think this number is high.. Not necessarily becuase the WW doesnt want it, but because her mindset returning ( if ever ) could take years - and by that time any healthy minded individual would have realised lifes too short and moved on anyway. But again - this isn't what your mind should focus on.
One more thing, Last week at our MC (the last one cuz I said I'm not going anymore), she told the MC she was writing a letter to give me because she communicates best that way (otherwise she gets defensive and angry in person). I haven't gotten anything. I asked about it, which I shouldn't have, a few days ago (before I told her I'm going to focus on me and end MC and set boundaries) and she said she was still writing it. Honestly, I want it to see what it says.
Why ? - you can't believe anything she says anyway..
My guess is she rewrites it every time her mood changes
You hit the nail on the head here - WW emotions are up, down and sideways - throw the mentially unstable comments into the mix and you really wont have a clue whats shes thinking or where her head is at - What she says 1 minute is disregarded 5 minutes later - and she will probably deny saying it. Hence stop the communication with her, other that child logistics.. As it will mess with your head.
Does anyone have links on detaching and finding the strength to actually do it? Something I can turn to in a moment of weakness? I can't get the anxiety under control and constantly feel miserable 😔
It’s in the links you get in the beginning.
Have you tried meditation?
I also suffered from horrible anxiety during BD. It was relentless.
What worked for me is hitting the gym, hard. Put on some angry music in your earbuds and lift some heavy weights. It will do wonders for your anxiety and as an added benefit, you'll get ripped.
I'm realizing (slightly) that dropping the rope is for me and not to get her back.
This is very important. Remind yourself of this when you GAL!
IT is still hard for me. Did I renovate our daughters room to show her? Yeah Probably a bit. But it made D very happy and that makes me feel tremendous!
Did I like it when W said I have started to look buff after 9 months of persistent gym? Yes! But Im doing it mostly for me. Eventually it will be ONLY for me if we D and sell the house.
For me the videos/pictures have sort of been forgotten. I can remember them vividly when I think about them but they dont mean as much anymore and most important I dont think about them much anymore.
Why ? - you can't believe anything she says anyway.
.
Also very important! I would NOT ask again about the letter and do not expect to get it.
Mine has also said she would write... Nothing! Probably totally forgot about it.
I feel for you in the anxiety and stress! IT is tough! GAL like a crazy person.
For me exercise at the gym and playing video games are great ways to relieve the mind.
Video games is maybe not something you should show WW but for me it really helps to take my mind of things for a few hours.
I have a very hard time meditating but if that works for you its great!
Our turnout is till to be decided.
W lives 50% at our house 50% with OM. Kids live here 100%. I live out of the house but spend a lot of time in the city, at gym, at work, with brother etc when she has her time with the kids.
Right now I feel like I will file for D and sell the house to get my own place and move on for real.
DO NOT want to share her with someone else and I need to take responsibility for mine and my kids happiness.
One of my biggest questions right now is if we sell our house. Do I get a house or do I get an apartment?
How do I want to live in this new reality?
Will give it time and a lot of thought first though.
Update, out of the blue she told me she is working on the letter and planning on sending it soon.
Mumin, thank you for your advice. If it's okay I will keeping seeking it from you.,
One thing to keep in mind when you read her letter.... what she writes in the letter is only an indicator of how she feels right now. Feelings can and do change, so keep that in mind.
There have been countless stories here when a WAS says they are done (and they mean in that instance), only to come back a few months later feeling completely different and wanting to reconcile. In fact, it's happened to me 3x with my WAS.
Believe nothing she says (or writes).
One thing to keep in mind when you read her letter.... what she writes in the letter is only an indicator of how she feels right now. Feelings can and do change, so keep that in mind.
There have been countless stories here when a WAS says they are done (and they mean in that instance), only to come back a few months later feeling completely different and wanting to reconcile. In fact, it's happened to me 3x with my WAS.
Believe nothing she says (or writes).
This^^.
Please know, what you read is likely not what you're going to want to hear. The hope many of us would have is probably something along the lives of "kto, I love you and Im sorry. I miss you and want to fix this". What you'll probably end up reading will be blame, hatred and passive aggressive or straight aggressive remarks. If it is or isnt what you want to hear, remember Thorntons post...its how she feels NOW. I was emailed an actual nice email about W feeling bad about it, wanting to work on herself and how she wants the kids to come first. Well...no working on herself has yet to occur. I'd almost rather I never read that nonsense.
For anxiety, as others mentioned, hit the gym hard. Push yourself. Set and hit goals. The gym gets lots of stress, anxiety and anger out, plus feel good chemicals fill the body after.
Hi kto
I will try and post here as often as I can and remember.
I do want to point out thought that I am very new to db myself though.
Believe nothing she says (or writes).
This is very important!
MY wife told my early January that she stills loves me. She actually DID say it for real. For the first time in like 6 months.
Se said she DOES have hopes for us.
A week ago she confessed shes seeing the OM.
Believe NOTHING that she says or writes! NOTHING!
MY W is an EXTREMELY good example of this.
This is all about actions. Not words.
Wow. I really need to know that. She told me today the letter/email is almost done. She also called me today saying how overwhelmed and scared she is because of the Corona virus. She asked to call, cried, told me she's scared, but I held my ground. Validated but that was it. I know she is trying to reel me back in. Trying to stay strong!
Wow. I really need to know that. She told me today the letter/email is almost done. She also called me today saying how overwhelmed and scared she is because of the Corona virus. She asked to call, cried, told me she's scared, but I held my ground. Validated but that was it. I know she is trying to reel me back in. Trying to stay strong!
IMO you should not of taken the call - she is Temp checking.
I would peronally wouldn't even open the email / letter.. as stated before, it will probably be gas lighting or abuse anyway - and what she's written won't be how she feels in a week or how she did actually feel before the affair.... My WW gave me a big speech about how she has never been happy with me since our first child was born ( 8 years prior to BD ) - hmmm ok - why did we have 2 more children and she was always asking to get engaged / married ?.
In the post 2 days ago you state you told your wife to only contact you re your daughter.. She has ignored that request and you chose to answer / validate.
You will read here on numerous posts the quote "Your wife fired you as a husband" - If your employer fired you and then called you to dicuss something would you take the call and validate ? The only reason you would do that is if you wanted the job back. You need to let go of the rope. You took the call and validated as you want your wife back. You need to stick to the boundaries.
You say it yourself - she was trying to reel you back in - Well you need to stop allowing this. You cant control her - you can control you.
If my WW calls i ignore - she ALWAYS then sends a message "Please answer" - my reply is always the same "Text only". That was i can filter the drama and whats kids related or not..
You need to be strong..
Totally randomly, i also got a text last night from the WW - out of the blue.. "This Corona Virus is Mental!!!" - and i just ignored it.
Be strong !
I have told my W I'm setting boundaries because it's time to work on me. Basically, no contact unless it's for my daughter.
The typical losing LBS playbook is to announce boundaries they have not thought through--then regret the damage they cause and look weak by failing to enforce them.
Agreed, as MrBrside says, it does not sound like that exchange was a good example of holding your ground (boundary).
Yeah I shouldn't of taken it. It was mainly about our D but she did start by saying how overwhelmed she was. I just said I could imagine she would be. But I did talk logistics at first then it turned into the Corona scare and what we are doing to prepare. Where I live they are closing schools and people are clearing out all of the grocery stores.
But you are right. It started with a text asking if she could call. I should've just said text me.
I agree. I take one step forward, two steps back.
Consider sorting the logistics via email or text.
You have no control when talking over the phone - You have more control what you wrote / send.. and you can think / ask advice on here before you do it.
You will see your WW wanting to talk more and more.
As crazy as she is, she is also scared. On one hand she has OM - this exciting new life to look forward to. On the other hand is you - a safe bet - dependable etc - But she is thinking with emotion fuelled by OM dopamine hits. You can't beat her emotion.. So take a step back. She is the one who is messed up and she needs to realise this. At the minute she has her lover ( alpha ) for fun / excitement and also wants you as her provider ( beta ) to vent on / be there when she needs it.. Dont settle for being 2nd..
Honestly, I do t know if she is still seeing him. I know she did a few weeks ago but I also know her friends were pissed that she did. I'm not going to ask. She needs to tell me, which I don't know if she would because she wants me to be jealous.
I know you are going to say she is. I'm probably being dumb.
One if my biggest questions everyday is should I text to ask how my daughter is in the morning? We FaceTime at night but when my daughter is with me my W texts to see how she is (most days). I've been trying not to but I really do want to.
1) - believe nothing that she says
2) - she will lie to you, she will lie to her friends, she will lie to anybody and everybody ! - she now thinks with emotion, NOT logic
3) - Even if she isn't seeing OM, she still has to work on herself - otherwise you go full circle - Look at Thortons Sig - Do you really want to do this every 2 years... Lifes too short and she is damaged. She has more work to do on herself that you do and you need to be strong. She needs to fix herself - you cant fix her - and some people are beyond fixing... some people do not want to be fixed.
I know you are going to say she is. I'm probably being dumb.
4) - Again - believe nothing she says !!!!
One if my biggest questions everyday is should I text to ask how my daughter is in the morning? We FaceTime at night but when my daughter is with me my W texts to see how she is (most days). I've been trying not to but I really do want to.
I love my kids - But why do you need to know how she is every morning. Does she suffer from illness ?
Peoples opinions will vary - my take on this is that if she is fit and healthy, she will be ok 10 hours after you spoke to her - I would expect my WW to let me know if they were poorly, but why ask every day ? unless she suffers from illness, your daughter should be fine - hence i would reduce the contact.. Your WW may not even be telling your daughter you are asking, so she wouldnt be aware of it.
About texting to check on your daughter each day...
I wouldn't unless there is some underlying issue with your daughter you must check on.
She is fairly healthy (other than Celiac). But I was my daughters primary support her whole life. She wants to be with me and my W is jealous of that. I just feel guilty I guess. I also know I'm subconsciously opening dialogue with my W and that's why I shouldn't do it. I've been pretty good about not doing it for the past week. Eventually, my W will text with a random question later in the s
She wants to be with me and my W is jealous of that. I just feel guilty I guess. I also know I'm subconsciously opening dialogue with my W and that's why I shouldn't do it. I've been pretty good about not doing it for the past week.
YOU feel guilty? Why?! From what I've heard you seem like a great father...
You may have some part in this, but your W is being wayward. Zero reason to feel guilt!
You need to let go and realize that 50% (?) of the time you have
NO control and actually
NO say in your daughters life, unless there is abuse.
The only thing that might make a difference here (since jurisdiction might be different) is if you want to and think you have a chance at getting full custody. Then you might handle things differently.
Like Brside said you D will be completely fine!
So in general, STOP asking! (Totally fine to not promptly stop immediately, but within the next week)
I am assuming you don't call daycare everyday and ask how she?
When and if your W asks be VERY short! "She's good". Nothing else, and let her wait a few hours!
W is LOW LOW LOW priority for you now.
Be strong!!!
I feel guilty that my daughter cries for me at times. I feel guilty that she wants to be with me. But you are right, she's with my W 50% of the time so she is fine. I am a good dad, my W tells me that all the time. I haven't texted in the morning in awhile. Today, my W texted me telling me what she was doing with my D. At that point I asked how she was. I figured I don't initiate then I'm making progress.
And daycare is actually my W's sister-in-law but she is completely on my side! So she lets me know how my D is doing.
Honestly, I feel like the more I step back the more my W reaches out. It feels good but I need to stay strong on that.
I feel guilty that my daughter cries for me at times. I feel guilty that she wants to be with me.
I understand this, but try not to. Will get easier over time.
Take responsibility of YOURS, the rest is out of your control.
I am a good dad, my W tells me that all the time.
So does mine. I just to love hearing it from her.
Now I hate it! ´Shes using it to make her self feel more ok for being not as good herself.
At that point I asked how she was.
Perfectly fine!
Avoid talking to SIL about W!
Can I ask my W if she is still seeing the OM. The only confirmation I have is she saw him two weeks ago. First, he cane to her work at a restaurant which she says she couldn't control. (BS!) Then later that night she went to dinner with friends and he went...which she never told me but her friends did.
I have to drive by her work and he was not there tonight (or last Friday...the night he usually goes there). It's entirely possible she sees him other times but I know her best friends have gotten angry with her for continuing. So maybe she has stopped. How am I ever to know? That was my only demand to continue therapy with her; stop seeing him and work on yourself. I don't know if she would tell me. She is the most closed down, depressed, I have ever seen her...and she was always building walls to keep people out before the affair
Can I ask my W if she is still seeing the OM. The only confirmation I have is she saw him two weeks ago. First, he cane to her work at a restaurant which she says she couldn't control. (BS!) Then later that night she went to dinner with friends and he went...which she never told me but her friends did.
Do you think she will tell you the truth, and not deny or minimize? It sounds like you already have the answer when her friends told you. What outcome are you hoping for?
I'm hoping to know she is moving in the right direction. Her friends told me about them meeting up 2 weeks ago. Since then I've been pulling back, canceling MC, etc. what if she is starting to end it?
She could very well lie; probably would. I'm not going to ask but it is a possibility. She texted me out of the blue yesterday saying she's 1/2 way done with a letter she is writing me. She communicates best that way, I. The past being more open and honest through writing. I don't know if I'll get the letter, or if I can believe it, but it's nice to see that the OM isn't following his sane routine of going there every Friday.
I have told my W I'm setting boundaries because it's time to work on me. Basically, no contact unless it's for my daughter.
The typical losing LBS playbook is to announce boundaries they have not thought through--then regret the damage they cause and look weak by failing to enforce them.
Can I ask my W if she is still seeing the OM.
You announced a boundary two days ago--no talk EXCEPT about D. A day later you broke it, and two days later you're discussing breaking it again. Was the boundary a poor choice, or are you just struggling to find strength? Unfortunately, asking wouldn't yield much info, because your wife isn't trustworthy.
How am I ever to know? That was my only demand to continue therapy with her; stop seeing him and work on yourself. I don't know if she would tell me.
You said your other "demand" was that she work on herself--has she? If she isn't clear she wants to work on the marriage, it may not be a good time for MC, even if she's no longer see this AP.
I have to drive by her work and he was not there tonight
I suspect this isn't helping your detachment. Can you plan another route or distract yourself when driving by? Would it be possible to shift 10% of your focus from her and towards GAL activities?
Can I ask my W if she is still seeing the OM. The only confirmation I have is she saw him two weeks ago. First, he cane to her work at a restaurant which she says she couldn't control. (BS!) Then later that night she went to dinner with friends and he went...which she never told me but her friends did.
I have to drive by her work and he was not there tonight (or last Friday...the night he usually goes there). It's entirely possible she sees him other times but I know her best friends have gotten angry with her for continuing. So maybe she has stopped. How am I ever to know? That was my only demand to continue therapy with her; stop seeing him and work on yourself. I don't know if she would tell me. She is the most closed down, depressed, I have ever seen her...and she was always building walls to keep people out before the affair
Please start here..
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1Asking your WW if she still see's other man is not detachment. It's irrelevant actually. You need to grasp that even if she stops seeing OM1, there will probably be OM2, 3, 4 etc. Until your wife works on herself, OM1,2 99, 100 arent the problem. It's sometimes difficult for LBS to grasp that. Even if she comes running back begging forgiveness tomorrow, it will not be long term.
You also state "my only demand" - please read more posts... you CANNOT control her. again, read the link above.. Your wife will rebel against your demands because she can.
DB is hard - Please read some more posts and all the initial links. We can only offer advice.. But all of the people who post to you have been there / seen it. We aren't a bunch of people who read a few books on divorce and did a crash course of DB - then decided to post about it - each and every person here has experienced what you are going through.
We cant control you, the same way you cant control WW. We just offer advice - based on first hand experience..this forum is your best bet of getting advice on helping YOU.. We advise - you need to put the leg work in though.
Can I ask my W if she is still seeing the OM. The only confirmation I have is she saw him two weeks ago. First, he cane to her work at a restaurant which she says she couldn't control. (BS!) Then later that night she went to dinner with friends and he went...which she never told me but her friends did.
I have to drive by her work and he was not there tonight (or last Friday...the night he usually goes there). It's entirely possible she sees him other times but I know her best friends have gotten angry with her for continuing. So maybe she has stopped. How am I ever to know? That was my only demand to continue therapy with her; stop seeing him and work on yourself. I don't know if she would tell me. She is the most closed down, depressed, I have ever seen her...and she was always building walls to keep people out before the affair
"I have to drive by her work". Sorry, no where I know it's there only one way to a place. Find an alternate route. Driving by to check up on her isn't going to help with detachment.
I'm having hard time detaching. I'm really trying but I feel like she reaches out or I get weak. I hate living through this. I feel out of control sometimes. I can't help myself.
To update, I was with my W's best friend last night. She herself is finalizing her divorce because her H had multiple affairs. Needless to say, she supports me and for a month refused to talk to my W. It made my W jealous that I was hanging with her and continue to do so. It's just as friends do nothing to be jealous about. However, they have hung out more recently and said that my W broke down apologizing for doing the exact same thing to me that happened to her friend. Her friend said she did seem sincere. She also said that my W told her she doesn't want the OM to come to her work but he does anyways. Her friend said she thinks she is stopping the A and that my wife said she doesn't know what's wrong with her head.
My W hasn't told me any of this. I'm still waiting for that letter. I'm just hoping this is progress. But I'll continue to try to detach and do the 180. Admiringly, I haven't been the best about it but getting better.
She also said that my W told her she doesn't want the OM to come to her work but he does anyways. Her friend said she thinks she is stopping the A and that my wife said she doesn't know what's wrong with her head.
She can get another job if she really meant it. That's what it will take if he keeps showing up.
I'm having hard time detaching.
Get busy if you can. Thursday evening I led a hike followed by a yoga class, Friday morning I led a walk, the afternoon went on a hike with my son, the night I watched a movie. This morning I inventoried my supplies (re: coronavirus) and bought a few items I was low on at a time when crowds were low.
I’m content with quiet moments now, too, but staying active means less moments are available for your thoughts to spin out of control. Detaching/GAL is hard at first. It gets easier.
Speaking to a friend who is in the national guard, there is a chance that they have everyone stay home at not allowed to leave as a result of the Corona virus. He said it is the next step they would take and that it is likely. I'm am not working for the next few weeks, my child's daycare has been closed, and businesses are starting to remain closed.
My W knows this and said, "well I'm not going to stop seeing my daughter." Do I allow her to move in to co-parent if that happens? She can live in the spare room. Honestly, I would need the help with a 3 year old. And if it's for multiple weeks I definitely could use the help.
None of this is at that point so I won't even bring it up unless it gets to that. But it got me thinking. I do believe she has pulled away from the OM. I know her friends have given her crap for continuing. Her friends are her world.
I am in a similar situation. Wonder, Will she still be living with OM...?
Sounds like you are saying that D will only be living with you? Why? That's not the way I have understood it.
Anyway you need to be prepared for take care of your child 100%, for the rest of your life (at least every other week).
Without understanding the situation fully, in general I would say, if she has moved out she aint moving back in to your house unless we are talking like weeks/months into reconciliation.
Without understanding the situation fully, in general I would say, if she has moved out she aint moving back in to your house unless we are talking like weeks/months into reconciliation.[/quote]
Normally, someone as stubborn as my W, how long does it take for them to move through their concussion and reconcile? I don't know if she would, but if she did, how long do W's stay away for? Months? I'm trying to figure out how long this process is.
Btw, she stopped by to talk logistics regarding Corona and she said she would want to stay at the house if we get locked down. I know it isn't smart but I'm going to need the help. If you are adamant that I shouldn't I guess I won't.
I don't know if she would, but if she did, how long do W's stay away for? Months? I'm trying to figure out how long this process is.
If you get lucky, I'd settle in for at least 4-6mo of ups and downs. What helped me continue was realizing the best first steps for "staying" or "going" were similar--detachment and GAL. Key factors in how long to stand, IMHO, are the duration of the relationship and the presence (or lack thereof) of young children.
+ Kristin arrived in Oct and her partner returns in Jan (3mo), before leaving again in Mar (5mo).
+ May arrived in Sep and I believe her partner gave up the AP in Feb (5mo). He's back to monogamy, and the situation seems promising, but he's not quite ready to reconcile.
+ CWarrior arrived in May and my partner was back to monogamy, intimacy, and fun trips by Nov (5mo), but I pulled the plug when she kept screaming and I got exhausted making backup plans based on her mood.
It's a good question. I'm surprised when people start, then give up 2mo later no new skills learned.
(Those may do better to just go no-contact and move on.)
QUOTE
If you get lucky, I'd settle in for at least 4-6mo of ups and downs. What helped me continue was realizing the best first steps for "staying" or "going" were similar--detachment and GAL. Key factors in how long to stand, IMHO, are the duration of the relationship and the presence (or lack thereof) of young children.
----- -10 years together, 4.5 years married, one 3 year old daughter. ------
QUOTE
It's a good question. I'm surprised when people start, then give up 2mo later no new skills learned.
-------I'm thinking I should file but then I read that statement and think I haven't given this a try long enough. I might give her 1 more month but then file, wait 30-60 days and then turn it into the courts. --------
I'm thinking I should file but then I read that statement and think I haven't given this a try long enough. I might give her 1 more month but then file, wait 30-60 days and then turn it into the courts.
Filing is the last thing you should do - because you will not follow through with it.. I've seem so many new people come and threaten to file - thinking it will scare the WW to return. - From your posts, you are desperate to get your WW back and i think you feel this will scare her back home. If it fails, i feel you will backtrack which shows weekness - Not attractive. - Bye bye respect.
Normally, someone as stubborn as my W, how long does it take for them to move through their concussion and reconcile? I don't know if she would, but if she did, how long do W's stay away for? Months? I'm trying to figure out how long this process is.
This was written less than 12 hours before your file comment. You are still focusing on getting her back, not focusing on you.
You need to realise that if she does end it will AP and come running back, the underlying issues are still there - I speak from expereince on this.. I found out about EA1 and ended it with my WW... She gave me a sob story and i took her back. But this didnt address any underlying issues ( this was months before i found this webite or understood the WW mindset ) and with 2 months she was flirting with other guys.
Respect is key here - there are lots of posts on it. You don't gain respect by being nice. I get the impression you have NGS. Try reading No More Mr Nice Guy.
Re your comment about letting her move back in - Personal opinion - I wouldnt allow it, as again you are giving that inch for her. This is your opertunity to man up and do your best by your daughter, showing WW that your dont actually need her there anyway.
If you do divorce, this would be the new norm anyway, so why not start now.. Focus on you, focus on your daughter..
I definitely have NGS! It is totally me. So what do I do? Be a jerk?
Also, I want to file to wake her up, give her 90-180!days before it's finalized, bed if she doesn't wake up, screw her. I can't wait forever. I can't go a day without talking to her...usually about my daughter but things always seem to come up about us. It's impossible that it doesn't.
She is in complete control. Why can't I taje some back by filing? My W is so indecisive and runs away from all problems. She knows she can come back so she is going to play this game forever. I can't do that. A lot of people have suggested to file to wake her up.
What good can come from not doing it? What bad thing comes from filing?
The opposite of NGS is NOT being a jerk. You need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy stat!
NGS isn't just being nice. It is being nice to manipulate people to get what you want out of them. If you think about it, that isn't nice at all!
Filing to wake her up will backfire. If you file before YOU are ready to be D'd you will end up D'd, and still have a lot of emotional baggage to work through, including the feeling of not being patient enough.
Filing to take back control? Really? Here is the thing. She wants D. You want to R. How does filing NOT give her control since it is what she wants? I am all for LBSs filing for D when the circumstances and time is right. Filing to wake her up IS NOT the circumstance nor time.
So what good can come from not doing it? See my first paragraph about filing above. What bad thing can come from filing? Also see my first paragraph for filing above.
Principle: Only file for D when you are ready to be D'd. Because that is the likely outcome. Filing for D to "wake her up" will not work the vast majority of time. And then you will regret filing.
When you can file and not care how she reacts to it.....then that was the right time. Not until then.
I definitely have NGS! It is totally me. So what do I do? Be a jerk?
Thats not what its about at all - Its a good book and worth a read.
Also, I want to file to wake her up, give her 90-180!days before it's finalized, bed if she doesn't wake up, screw her. I can't wait forever. I can't go a day without talking to her...usually about my daughter
Very irrational and emotional reply - You still dont grasp that she needs to work on herself - but you need to work on you. The last thing you want to do in this state of mind is file. Even if she "wakes up" it wont be all happy families.
but things always seem to come up about us. It's impossible that it doesn't.
YOU can control this - You end the conversation.
She knows she can come back so she is going to play this game forever. I can't do that.
Well this is where YOU need to be strong and stop allowing her to play a game. You say you cant allow her to do this - Well don't - But do it without having a motive - Stop the contact becuase you want to stop the game playing - not "oh i'll file and it make make her come back" - You need to grasp that this will just happen again - she doesnt respect you.
A lot of people have suggested to file to wake her up.
And if it doesnt - you look weak - Unless you are going to be strong on this, you will come across as weak ... Bye bye even more respect. If you can't enforce no contact, the chances of divorcing are less - zero - as its not what you want. You want her back, but you are happy to accept your WW back - still WW - which wont end well..
If you havent read Sandy's posts on this - Do so - I would take her expereince and the advice of people here ( all been there ) over "A lot of people" any day of the week.
Your WW has a lot of work to do - but you will take her back any way you can get her.. You don't need to be a jerk - you do need to gain her respect and i suspect a bit of self respect
[quote=Steve85]The opposite of NGS is NOT being a jerk. You need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy stat!
------Is there a thread on this forum? I found some stuff online but it's vague-----
QUOTE
Filing to take back control? Really? Here is the thing. She wants D. You want to R. How does filing NOT give her control since it is what she wants? I am all for LBSs filing for D when the circumstances and time is right. Filing to wake her up IS NOT the circumstance nor time.
-----My W has said once she wants a D but since then it's, "I'm not sure if I do" or "I don't want that pressure" etc. Honestly, I don't know if she does but if I bring it up she doesn't want to talk about it....cake and eating it too.
[quote=Steve85]The opposite of NGS is NOT being a jerk. You need to read No More Mr. Nice Guy stat!
------Is there a thread on this forum? I found some stuff online but it's vague-----
QUOTE
Filing to take back control? Really? Here is the thing. She wants D. You want to R. How does filing NOT give her control since it is what she wants? I am all for LBSs filing for D when the circumstances and time is right. Filing to wake her up IS NOT the circumstance nor time.
-----My W has said once she wants a D but since then it's, "I'm not sure if I do" or "I don't want that pressure" etc. Honestly, I don't know if she does but if I bring it up she doesn't want to talk about it....cake and eating it too.
Why are you bringing it up? A basic rule of DBing: don't start R talks.
You are right Steve. I guess I thought talking about D wasn't considered R talk.
I feel like I make steps forward and then fall back. Every time I know she's with the OM I have a hard time not trying to fix her. I know I can't but I find myself thinking I should. That's my hardest part.
You are right Steve. I guess I thought talking about D wasn't considered R talk.
I feel like I make steps forward and then fall back. Every time I know she's with the OM I have a hard time not trying to fix her. I know I can't but I find myself thinking I should. That's my hardest part.
Yep, that is because men are wired to be fixers. If there was something wrong with your car, you'd want to fix it.
However, you can't fix her, but you know who you can fix? YOU! Get the book No More Mr. Nice Guy, read it. I assume you are reading DR. When I was in the thick of my sitch I was reading 3-4 self-improvement or anti-D relationship books per month.