Previous thread:
HereLH summed it up succinctly. But just to be clear I wasn’t trying to get you to armchair diagnose your wife. I was trying to get you to understand bending to her every whim about what you’re doing wrong is pointless. You can’t trust that her complaints about you are actually valid. You can validate that she feels that way but if you can look at what she’s saying like this communication issue, or like my house me apparently belittling my WH everyday our entire relationship, and objectively see what they are saying makes no sense you validate and walk away. 1) we can’t fix our MR right now we have to fix ourselves and the WSs need to fix themselves. Eventually if we get in a space to R then we can fix the MR. Why tread water needlessly waiting for the relay, when you could be perfecting your own 500 M. 2) listen to LH. Is LBSs swing just like our lovely WSs. We tend to find center more easily but when looking back at the relationship we tend to first see it with rose colored then a post apocalyptic sh*t storm of Mad Max proportions. As we move through our statges of grief this happens. As WSs throw us a curve ball or a blow up version of a crappy behavior they had prior to BD this happens. Every body here is in crisis. We don’t always behave rationally. The goal though especially if their are kids is to try to find center. Try to be rational. Try to remain the anchor for the family. The kids need one stable adult right now.
Just focus on being the best you and best dad you can be.
Wayfarer, I didnt get that armchair diagnoses from you. No worries there. Your post just opened up my mind and I went in to my own rabbit hole. Thank you and LH for the good points. Its beyond easy to lose focus. Im starting to wonder if Im a narc now after some of the things I've done and read.
I'm scared, downright scared. Today W checked out my medicines for an unknown reason. I found she's checking out townhouses which doesnt mean anything as she used to all the time but still....and well she's acting nice. She asked me what I wanted to do for my bday and is going to make my favorite meal. So many mixed signals. I talked earlier in passing and she acted like she didnt hear me. Its not uncommon if she doesnt want to talk about the subject. Im thinking Im hypersensitive. Something new to work on and I think wayfarer noticed this in me a few posts back.
Empaths attract narcs, this scares me more. I dont know if she is one however everyone I've talked to is alarmed by her behavior, before and after BD, including my counselor. Normally you dont just "let your walls down" after several months of stonewalling and suddenly act nice. She stone walled me years ago for 2 months as well over a miscommunication. I love my 2nd child and I wouldnt trade him for anything. I did have serious concerns about W before we had him and maybe i should've asked for D or counseling then. Now 4 lives are caught in this.
I miss adult female emotional contact. Im not a cheater and my W mostly avoids me so what do I do but suffer in a way while building myself up and waiting with no end in sight?
I miss adult female emotional contact. Im not a cheater and my W mostly avoids me so what do I do but suffer in a way while building myself up and waiting with no end in sight?
Core, it always within your right and your power to pull the plug. No one could blame you for being the one to follow through with D and moving on. I get the female emotional contact. Heck, I would have just as much problem going without physical contact! But do it the right way. Move forward with D and move on with someone else.
But only do that when you've earned your way out of your current MR. You want to look into your kids eyes one day and say honestly that you did everything in your power to try to save your marriage to their mother. And you want to be able to move on without any emotional baggage because that will doom your next R to failure.
Since I'm so close to the end of the line here, I started a relationship chat. I dont want to put too much out here in case it comes back to us...I found some history and it showed nothing. Just nothing. No self improving, no attempts to D. Nothing. I found a saved file on our computer and on it was her perspective, writing out how she much she hates me, my actions, and well just about everything about me. Even if W cheated on me physically, I couldnt imagine putting something like that in writing. It tells me a few things...she is feeling worse and worse towards me as time goes, likely isn't on the fence about the R and she has levels of anger and hatred I need to protect the kids and I from. Not saying she's unsafe with the kids. Shes great with them. The negative energy can be sensed however if science is correct.
If she feels that way, the kids dont need to see me be around that. Its healthy for no one. I know this is just how she feels at THIS moment but hasnt it been long enough? She's had since September to do something...anything. I had a chat to ask her whats going on with her and to help me determine if she is a narc and I need to run. She showed quite a few signs of narc but I still have a little doubt. The blame continues to be on me, even for things there is no evidence for. She acknowledge some points I brought up. Some turned on me but some was acknowledged so maybe im overly sensitive. Either way, our status hasnt changed.
I know per DB it should be all about her during chats...but I dont care which way we go now. I dont want to spend much more time around a toxic person filled with conditional love that hates me and cannot look internally at themselves. I feel badly for her, deeply. Surprisingly the file I found didnt affect me much. Old me would've broken down and cried. Now I think as maybe a WAH would...I barely cared. Just more of the same. I'm planning my departure, setting a deadline. I'll give one last shot before I file then I'm out. I was hard to be around, I get that. If I did and said the things shes done, I cant imagine how she'd react. If Im gone, maybe she'll find a new enemy and the kids can have co parents that at least tolerate each other. Im afraid if I stay longer, it can go so far as me never being about to forgive. For my health, I dont want to hold the negatively forever. My kids need a healthy pillar.
Im sorry all, I know this is a marriage saving site. I think I have to tap out before I will with hatred as she has. All this over fixable things.
C,
You definitely need patience in the DB game but I understand if you want out and move on. I just caution you that being D with two really young children will not be easy on them or you. I also think you want to be able to tell your kids some day that you did everything you could to keep your family together.
You haven’t once tried to take the focus off your W for a second. Something to think about.
Core, take a deep breath. When we have an especially arduous R talk, or find a file of W's thoughts, or find out there is an OM, sometimes we get what we like to refer to as the "illusion of action". Where something must be done.
Here is the thing.....nothing has changed. That file was written who knows how long ago, and your finding it doesn't change anything. Today is no different than yesterday, you just know about the file now. I'd like to point out a couple of things because you seem to think you are detached now, don't care one way or the other, and ready to move on. But are you?
1) Why did you start a R talk? Think about it. If you are detached, really done, don't care, and ready to move on, why would you start an R talk? Most people don't have R talks unless they still care to some level.
2) Why did you read the file? Once you knew what it was? If you really are done, ready to move on, and don't care, why would you have read the entire thing. Great, it didn't affect you the way it would have before, but it still affected you. Why? You need to get to that underlying answer.
3) Most of us that were in limbo think that limbo is the worst. Limbo is the gift of time. Many LBSs would kill for a 3 month, 6 month, 12 month or longer limbo period. Those are LBSs that get left right out of the gate. The words "I want a D" are still in the air as their WAS is packing and leaving. Point is, don't do something rash over something that doesn't really mean anything.
Now I am proponent of setting a deadline. I notoriously had a deadline, and put it right in my signature. Just make sure the deadline is further out than the time you need to get ready. And then DB your butt off (that means no R talks!) between then and now.
I also highly suggest you stop trying to DB to save your marriage....and DB to save yourself. You can't believe the impact that can have on your WAS.
Core,
They all write these things. My W did. It actually is good because the only people who can hurt us this bad are the people we love. If she didn't care about you, it wouldn't hurt that much.
She's had since September to do something...anything.
That's not even 6 months. My sitch took much longer to really turn around and most do IMO.
I noticed you called her love conditional with a bit of scorn and mentioned your conditions immediately after. We all have a breaking point. I'm not going to tell you how to live your life. Just realize that unconditional love is not something that most marriages have.
Just realize that unconditional love is not something that most marriages have.
Nor should they. We all have conditions. Even if they are just "I will love you as long as you aren't physically abusive."
On the topic of unconditional love...you can stay or leave a marriage and still love that person. I certainly have conditions to remain in the M however I believe I will always have love for the inner being that is my W. At this point though I dont know who the real her is...the woman that seduced me, the one who appeared at good times, bad times or the woman in between. I think the insecure, desiring and sharing love person is her but I dont know. I dont know which person is real and who is the mask. Its unreal.
You guys have convinced me to give it more time but it seems impossibly hard. I still question if D is better for the kids.
In response to Steves points:
1) I still care on some level and want ro resolve things before we both have both feet out the door. Seeing how alarming the file was, I worry about Ws mental health. If she got pushed to D by our chat then maybe thats a good thing for all of us.
2) To see where she is at. To see if I'm being used. To see if I should protect myself legally.
3) I see your point. Im not sure if ripping off the band aid quickly or slowly is better.
In regards to the file, I can understand other Ws write out some feelings. I'd love to post the whole thing to get your take. Here is a portion and why I'm wondering if I need to leave: "I F hate you and your mother F personality. Youre a Mother F stupid piece of S who is insecure, selfish and doesnt know himself, me and is clueless as to what a marriage is. I F hate you and the way you talk, the stupid way you walk". This continues on. As this was saved on a PC, I could see when it was edited which was 3 weeks ago. The worst things i ever said about W are probably on this board. No where near as intense and hurtful.
If she hates me this much, how long until a false abuse claim? How long till the kids are affected by the vibe? D4 seems affected, she no longer comes to me for anything. Maybe a phase or because im barely home anymore, still, this is getting bad under the surface. This file is way more intense than the ones I found around D day. She seems worse, not better after my DBing.
On the topic of unconditional love...you can stay or leave a marriage and still love that person. I certainly have conditions to remain in the M however I believe I will always have love for the inner being that is my W. At this point though I dont know who the real her is...the woman that seduced me, the one who appeared at good times, bad times or the woman in between. I think the insecure, desiring and sharing love person is her but I dont know. I dont know which person is real and who is the mask. Its unreal.
Your wife is all those things. Like a normal human person. You have to stop. You're the one who put her on a pedestal so high she had no where to go but to tumble down. She certainly didn't put her self there. LBS have to take blame where we have blame. The pedestal thing is a common one. Your wife is good, bad, sweet, sick, soft, hard. All of it. That's how people work. She is human the way you are human. She's just not the best version of herself right now. And it's your right to not want to live with that. It's your right to not want to stay married to that. You get to draw your own line in the sand here. You however need to slow down and stop demonizing the mother of your children. She might be a crap person. She may very well be mentally ill. She may very well be the devil incarnate. I don't know. I don't know this woman. But you have to raise kids with her for a very, very long time, and the more you allow yourself to fall into this rabbit hole of being some kind of victim of hers and turning her into some kind of sadist the worse your are making things for yourself regardless of outcome. If you manage to some how get to an R you now have to over come your own guilt about turning her into something she's not to serve your need to help you rationalize her behavior. If you D and you keep going like this I guarantee your wife will take everything she's written in that file and make sure everyone in your universe including her lawyer and your judge hears all of it. The whole point of this DBing stuff is to stay above all of this. Not to stoop down to that level. You have to get out of crisis mode.
You guys have convinced me to give it more time but it seems impossibly hard. I still question if D is better for the kids.
What's best for the kids is what will make their parents stable and happy. Diving head long into a D when you can't even get your emotions in check enough is not that.
In regards to the file, I can understand other Ws write out some feelings. I'd love to post the whole thing to get your take. Here is a portion and why I'm wondering if I need to leave: "I F hate you and your mother F personality. Youre a Mother F stupid piece of S who is insecure, selfish and doesnt know himself, me and is clueless as to what a marriage is. I F hate you and the way you talk, the stupid way you walk". This continues on. As this was saved on a PC, I could see when it was edited which was 3 weeks ago. The worst things i ever said about W are probably on this board. No where near as intense and hurtful.
Oh then you probably wouldn't like the notes on my phone the time my WH disappeared for 14 hours. Or the first night he didn't come home. Or the day each one of our girls came to me to tell me they knew about OW. Or 2 years before all of this the texts I sent to my best friend when he chose to go to an event without me when I couldn't get off work for it even though I skipped it the year before because he couldn't go. And you really wouldn't have wanted to hear the things I said the night he tried to go xmas shopping with OW at the local mall when I went into a complete rage and was not aware of DBing yet. I can tell you in that instance I said waaayyy worse things than your W and seriously considered doing very damaging illegal things to both his car and hers in the mall parking lot. People are entitled to unkind thoughts and feelings. People are also entitled to some privacy, and while I know things are messy, and I'm not exactly morally opposed to LBS's doing a little snooping, you have to realize reading literally all of that file was essentially sitting down and reading her diary. You are not sans fault here, Core.
I've seen a lot of other newbies around us doing this same thing where they have these expectations of the WS/WAS living by the exact same moral codes, ethics and relationship rules as they have. #1 that's impossible to have an exact match in a healthy relationship with two healthy people. #2 that's an insane expectation of a spouse in a wayward/MLC/walk away emotional crisis; they are not operating even on their own standard set of those codes much less yours.
Also "edited 3 weeks ago" just means opened. If she opened it and saved it exactly as is, that's considered edited. Also 3 weeks ago my WH was still having date nights with his OW. He's not any more. 3 weeks is more than enough time for feelings to change. Especially with a WS/WAS. You're putting a lot of emotional stock in a diary entry from at least 3 weeks ago if not longer.
If she hates me this much, how long until a false abuse claim? How long till the kids are affected by the vibe? D4 seems affected, she no longer comes to me for anything. Maybe a phase or because im barely home anymore, still, this is getting bad under the surface. This file is way more intense than the ones I found around D day. She seems worse, not better after my DBing.
Why are you going 5 steps ahead here? You have no idea if there's going to be a false claim or not. And these things are investigated. DV is super messy and complicated and it's not just investigated by the police but it's also then investigated by the DAs office before they are willing to prosecute, and if that's such a fear of yours I strongly suggest you sitting down with an attorney.
The kids are already affected here. Just because really little ones can't articulate it doesn't mean they don't get the social cues that are happening around them. But I highly doubt the 4 yo is avoiding you because of that. That might be a little projection and that isn't fair to your W or your child. Maybe it's something else entirely like you not being home much. Thankfully though your kids are very little and therefore very resilient and will bounce back easily regardless of outcome here. You can't protect them from this by staying together or getting a D. They're in the middle of this mess and will be riding along with you two for the duration.
If this is a phase like you say why do you care? If you're working on your detaching you should be moving on from this by now, right? Not getting swept up in the roller coaster...isn't that the goal?
Last and most importantly I need you to think about this carefully. If you are so convinced that your W is a mentally ill vindictive evil disaster of a human why are you "barely home anymore" while she's there with kids who have no protective capacities? GALing isn't meant to be at the expense of the well being of your kids. So either you don't think she's as dangerous as you are saying, you are constantly taking your kids with you, or you are making really poor parenting choices by leaving small children with an unstable volatile person? Am I missing information here? Because what you're presenting that's what this looks like.
In regards to the file, I can understand other Ws write out some feelings. I'd love to post the whole thing to get your take. Here is a portion and why I'm wondering if I need to leave: "I F hate you and your mother F personality. Youre a Mother F stupid piece of S who is insecure, selfish and doesnt know himself, me and is clueless as to what a marriage is. I F hate you and the way you talk, the stupid way you walk". This continues on. As this was saved on a PC, I could see when it was edited which was 3 weeks ago. The worst things i ever said about W are probably on this board. No where near as intense and hurtful.
If she hates me this much, how long until a false abuse claim? How long till the kids are affected by the vibe? D4 seems affected, she no longer comes to me for anything. Maybe a phase or because im barely home anymore, still, this is getting bad under the surface. This file is way more intense than the ones I found around D day. She seems worse, not better after my DBing.
Maybe she wrote that after a particularly rough interaction with you. Maybe that was what she was feeling at that moment. I've heard spouses say to each other "uh, I hate you right now. I can't even look at you!" But that doesn't mean they really hated their spouse, it was the anger speaking at the moment they said it. I think to base your entire next move on this file is short-sighted. Hasn't she given you letters and cards over the years telling you how much she loves you and wants you in her life? Why is this file more legitimate than all those other expressions.
See, I think you are looking for a way out of limbo, and want to use this file as your excuse. "She hates me now, no since in trying anymore." Remember, this decision, whether to give it more time or whether to pull the plug, has the possibility of being a decision you have to live with......FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. I've had Rs where I grew tired of waiting for it to move forward, and pulled the plug. One in particular I still look back and wonder what might have been if I had just given it more time. It is a terrible thing to have to live with, knowing you weren't patient enough.
Your goal should be to move on with no regrets. That you can look your kids in the face and say "I did EVERYTHING I could. I exhausted all my options, to try to fix it. I gave it ample time and it did not change." Likely your kids will question it if it is < a year. More than a year and you might have some sympathy from them. But your goal should be to leave with a clean conscience.
Personally, I think you need to give it more time. I was going to give my WAW a year before I pulled the plug. It is always in your right to say "I've had enough, I am out." But living with that decision is something you'll have to deal with.
One last thing. Also you need to stop making excuses for not DBing.
"Since I'm so close to the end of the line here, I started a relationship chat."
Really? So we can use any subjective gauge for deciding to set aside DBing principles? You have no idea how close to the end you are. You were thinking you were close to the end, but are you really? And even if you are, was it the right move to start a R chat?
Did you feel better or worse after the R chat? Do you think it progressed your sitch?
Keep on DBing.....even if it really ends, you keep on DBing! DBing isn't for her...it is for you. Do you realize that I even use validation in my discussions at work? Validation is an AMAZING tactic for communicating with people. It is transformative. People can't help but be drawn to you when they feel you understand how they feel. It also diffuses things. If more exspouses would validate one another there would be less disputes post D!
So always be DBing.
I just want to say thanks Wayfarer and Steve. Your posts resonated well and kicked me right out of that mindset. All but one day since your posts have been good. I've been happy, W and I communicate more and kids are thriving. On one day, W criticized me twice in front of S1. When I confronted her, she blamed me. Not a good sign but maybe things are still improving overall. I could tell she felt attacked. I spent about 2 hours thinking of how to communicate the boundary in a way that wouldnt hurt her and brought it up in a nice, pleasant way. Still she gets hurt and I blamed. She's of course said nice things and has even corrected D4 when she acted not great towards me. My actions maybe set us back again though I wont stand for being negatively criticised to my kids. Example...daddy is not good at changing diapers and cleaning you. Mommy is better.
I learned from someone (I didnt ask for this info) that she is on the fence right now. She is looking for someone to tell her or justify with her whether to stay or D. Ive been painted bad and some hurtful lies were told about me. No self reflecting on her end yet that I know of. Is this all normal? The anxiety talking here...what if she never self reflects? I'll always be the bad guy. The last week other than one day was so nice. The one day still bugs me so I know thats my own issue to get over. I think I started to attach more and let the criticism get to me.
As to the criticizing. Men on this page seem to really like dig in with this when it's a WAW or WW and it doesn't matter how "alpha" they are or not. As a wife and a mother and an A type woman. When your wife criticizes you can you take a step back from your personal pain, and ego and hear what she's saying when she says these things? Women for the most part, don't criticize and nag because we like to and we like making you guys feel like crap. It happens because we've felt unheard for so long. What I hear when you say what your wife said to you is that you are not as meticulous and careful changing and cleaning the little one as she is. Or you don't do it the way she'd like it to be done. Now was that a good way to say those things to you absolutely not. That is a terrible way to communicate a want or need but that's not really her strong suit now is it? So maybe baby steps on that. Don't hold her to expectations she can't meet. The conversation should've been you validating her and then finding out why she feels that way. What are you doing wrong changing the baby? Or what does she think your doing wrong changing the baby? Find out. If you are doing something wrong that will keep him happier and healthier in his diaper longer so be it.Tell her you'll be more conscientious in the future, but you'd really like it if she'd just come out and ask you to do those things instead of making back handed comments in front of the kids. If she's just being controlling that's the time to address both the fact that you can get from point a to point b with out the exact same route and it's really not that important, and talking to you that way is inappropriate. She's either going to hear you or not, but at least you took the high road. You're wife is not a child, and even though she may act like one, you shouldn't speak to her as if she is.
All WAS/WS will paint us as the bad guy. Now you may be a little bit of the bad guy here. There may be things you need to work on in the MR, as a dad, as a person. That's all of us LBS none of us are without fault here. No body is married to Jesus. Although for a period of time my WH thought he was Jesus in our marriage and I was the devil and the cause of all of his and our issues. Some of his complaints about me were totally and completely valid. I figured some out on my own. Some I already knew. Some I had to have my bff get real with me about and face. Some of the garbage he threw at me was exactly that garbage or his own crap he was projecting on to me. But I took the time to hear what he said. Even if he was angry when he hurled those things at me. Even if a lot of it was to justify his affair. Even if sometimes it was more garbage than truth. Because that's what he was feeling. He has to sort out on his own how much is him and how much is me on his own time. But I can figure out what is me and work on me with or with out him. Now that the OW is out of the picture and he's still very unsure about the MR, a lot of the narrative he's been telling himself is starting to fall apart and he's having to face reality vs the reality he created to justify what he was doing. It does lead to tiffs or just flat out confusion sometimes, because he still really really wants me to be the person he made up in his head. So he'll try to tell me things I've done or will do that never happened or in all likelihood wouldn't happen. And within hours he'll back pedal. None of this is a pretty, smooth or easy going process. All that being said she may never self reflect. And you have to accept that. You can't take her journey for her. You can only take your own. DBing at it's core is about self reflection and improvement. Worry about you. Your actions, reactions, personal growth, and parenting through this.
Thank you Wayfarer. Your part on your H thinking he was Jesus for awhile made me laugh.
What's getting me is the often present anger and disrespect. I've never had anyone treat me this poorly. My IC and I still dont understand how nothing has changed 7 months in now. Today my kid spilled his milk. I took his tray, put it on the counter and started cleaning while also giving D4 some food. W walked up to the tray and made insulting gestures basically saying through non verbal that it was stupid to put it there versus the sink. I said "what am I the bad guy now for taking care of the kids?". Consequently I get a death look, she says no and now she is withdrawn again.
This thing by itself, not a big deal but there isnt good moments inbetween to make up for it. I could live alone and only have to deal with this stuff when transferring the kids. What is the point of ever going back to this kind of marriage?
At this point, I know I am happier when she is not around. When she traveled and was gone, my world felt brighter. Now its painful. At home, I feel like Im around a person who has their sights set on me. I'm the problem, I'm a monster. I deserve this because I didnt give her the life she wanted. (She said literally, I never expected us to have any problems, why did you let this happen).
I know my flaws and challenge them. Working on them for me and the kids.
Im not sure why I'm posting today, I guess I'm hoping someone talks me out of filing again. Im two weeks away from the deadline I gave myself when this started. Looking like I either file, or I live in turmoil. I want it to work for the kids but I dont know that i want this woman anymore. The longer I stay, the more abuse I receive and the more alimony she gets. Why stay? I could be working towards my kids and my own future right now, but right now, my earnings half go to her future. This delays hopes of retiring. Why cant my W or most WW/WAS be somewhat nice? I show zero disrespect. I lead the family by example. I'm near the end of my patience. I have lost hope and I think Im losing myself. I cant detach when Im around her. The passive aggressive remarks almost daily still find their way.
C,
My guess is that if you file you are playing right into her hands. She can tell the kids you filed. I think your anxiety is still getting the better of you.
What's getting me is the often present anger and disrespect. I've never had anyone treat me this poorly. My IC and I still dont understand how nothing has changed 7 months in now. Today my kid spilled his milk. I took his tray, put it on the counter and started cleaning while also giving D4 some food. W walked up to the tray and made insulting gestures basically saying through non verbal that it was stupid to put it there versus the sink. I said "what am I the bad guy now for taking care of the kids?". Consequently I get a death look, she says no and now she is withdrawn again.
Nothing's changed because nothing's changed. You haven't changed enough for her to notice, and neither has she. To be honest if you put the tray some where I felt was precarious and the 4yo could've knocked it down and made it worse I probably would've made a face too. Because that is something I'm super bad at being as A type as I am. It drives me crazy when people don't do things the way I'd do them. I'm working at it. Trying to let go of the control. But control is a coping mechanism for me, so it's harder than just being less of a jerkface it's letting go of how I survived my childhood. My biggest concern here is how you reacted. First of all that was a super passive aggressive statement. Next and probably most importantly, did you really need to say anything at all to her nonverbal cue? Here let me answer that for you. No, no you didn't. You made a choice to make an already tense moment worse. You could've just as easily been annoyed in the moment and then let it go. Like every long term couple on the planet. You escalated the situation because you wanted to.
This thing by itself, not a big deal but there isnt good moments inbetween to make up for it. I could live alone and only have to deal with this stuff when transferring the kids. What is the point of ever going back to this kind of marriage?
No LBS here is going back to "that kind of marriage." None of us. All the vets, all the people piecing right now are not time traveling. They are starting over and building something better, a stronger foundation, better skills, deeper connections. If you want this, you aren't wanting what you used to have. You're wanting something better than before. Something where neither of you feels trapped. Something to run toward, not away from.
At this point, I know I am happier when she is not around. When she traveled and was gone, my world felt brighter. Now its painful. At home, I feel like Im around a person who has their sights set on me. I'm the problem, I'm a monster. I deserve this because I didnt give her the life she wanted. (She said literally, I never expected us to have any problems, why did you let this happen).
If you're happier when she's gone so be it. You wanna call it so be it. But the fact you are actually buying into anything she throws at you in anger or despair is not only concerning, it means you're not actually done. If you were really done you wouldn't take a thing she has to say to heart.
Im not sure why I'm posting today, I guess I'm hoping someone talks me out of filing again. Im two weeks away from the deadline I gave myself when this started. Looking like I either file, or I live in turmoil.
You're timeline is arbitrary and can be changed at any time. You want to file tomorrow, go ahead. You want to change your time line to a year from now, that's within your power too. This isn't a real deadline. Don't give it more weight than it deserves. You don't want to live in turmoil, then don't. It's your choice here to continue investing your emotions in your W's roller coaster. You could work harder on detachment. You could walk away and call it quits. But I can tell you filing isn't going to stop the turmoil.
I want it to work for the kids but I dont know that i want this woman anymore. The longer I stay, the more abuse I receive and the more alimony she gets. Why stay? I could be working towards my kids and my own future right now, but right now, my earnings half go to her future. This delays hopes of retiring. Why cant my W or most WW/WAS be somewhat nice?...I'm near the end of my patience. I have lost hope and I think Im losing myself. I cant detach when Im around her. The passive aggressive remarks almost daily still find their way
Ok I realize this is chaotic because you're just journaling so I'm going to try to sort this out. Literally everything in this paragraph says you have absolutely no idea what you want but you're leaning towards being out. The fact is if you aren't in the least self possessed in this you are essentially making a rash decision. I found myself again because of this mess. Some days I wonder what I'm doing standing. But for the most part I know what I want and how long I'll wait for it. You can't make a good decision in crisis. You need to truly work on getting out of crisis mode.
...I show zero disrespect. I lead the family by example...
Core, buddy, come on now. You just told me something you did that was crazy passive aggressive. No body's Jesus here. Let's not forget that. You
try to show zero disrespect. You
try to lead the family by example. You aren't without fault. And if you were fully aware of every single one of your flaws you wouldn't be here, or floundering. We're all works in progress. Own that. And own the effort, trying is a big deal. There's no shame in being a person trying to be the best version of themselves.
Hey Core,
We have always been on a similar timeline, but I can see some situational differences. Maybe with your living situation just not enough time and space.
I know my W and I could not have progressed or I detached much without physically separating. There was too much tension and no time to self-reflect. We still see each other a lot, but also have some time and space.
Just a thought from the outside.
Nothing's changed because nothing's changed. You haven't changed enough for her to notice, and neither has she. To be honest if you put the tray some where I felt was precarious and the 4yo could've knocked it down and made it worse I probably would've made a face too. Because that is something I'm super bad at being as A type as I am. It drives me crazy when people don't do things the way I'd do them. I'm working at it. Trying to let go of the control. But control is a coping mechanism for me, so it's harder than just being less of a jerkface it's letting go of how I survived my childhood. My biggest concern here is how you reacted. First of all that was a super passive aggressive statement. Next and probably most importantly, did you really need to say anything at all to her nonverbal cue? Here let me answer that for you. No, no you didn't. You made a choice to make an already tense moment worse. You could've just as easily been annoyed in the moment and then let it go. Like every long term couple on the planet. You escalated the situation because you wanted to.
I see what you're saying and thats where I'm stuck. If i don't confront the blatant act of disrespect then I would just be a doormat. If I don't want the action to continue then it needs to be confronted. I was home for 10 min during lunch break, helped out my kids, helped with a mess and made sure that the kids were ok before finishing cleaning. The kids couldnt get to the tray. I see no reason to get that angry over it. It truly concerns me. Yes shes is her own person and can be mad at things but where is the anger coming from and why would I keep my family around it?
No LBS here is going back to "that kind of marriage." None of us. All the vets, all the people piecing right now are not time traveling. They are starting over and building something better, a stronger foundation, better skills, deeper connections. If you want this, you aren't wanting what you used to have. You're wanting something better than before. Something where neither of you feels trapped. Something to run toward, not away from.
God I hope if we decide to R it is different. I am still blamed for everything. I haven't seen any self reflection on her end. Mentally she has to want a break from all her internal anger. How long can one avoid a situation?
If you're happier when she's gone so be it. You wanna call it so be it. But the fact you are actually buying into anything she throws at you in anger or despair is not only concerning, it means you're not actually done. If you were really done you wouldn't take a thing she has to say to heart.
True. I want to get out before I go numb. Its been a long time since I've had love or any kind of connection from her. I've seen others that regret postponing it. I wonder if that'll be me.
Core, buddy, come on now. You just told me something you did that was crazy passive aggressive. No body's Jesus here. Let's not forget that. You try to show zero disrespect. You try to lead the family by example. You aren't without fault. And if you were fully aware of every single one of your flaws you wouldn't be here, or floundering. We're all works in progress. Own that. And own the effort, trying is a big deal. There's no shame in being a person trying to be the best version of themselves.
Im glad you called me out on this, I didnt realize it was passive aggressive. Slipped in the heat of the moment.
She told me the other day that Im turning my IC in a weapon to use against her and that im not listening to her. This happened after I set a boundary around controlling how i interact with the kids (I'm allowed to feed them what i want on my time). She asked me to apologize for bringing the issue up. Literally asking me to apologize for setting a boundary she doesnt like that hurt her feelings and its all targeting her. The victimized passive aggressive reaction deeply concerns me. I feel very manipulated and controlled. Somedays I truly think I'm the victim of abuse. My counselor believes I am which reinforces me thinking I need to file to save myself. Other days it doesnt seem that bad. How did other know when to finally pull the plug? How can I ever be ok putting my happiness over the kids having a family which looks functional?
I'm confused myself again on what I should be doing while at home with W. I am 99 percent sure OM is out of the picture. I know for a fact she is on the fence. As a reminder, W asked to recon but got spooked. Since then we've been more friendly and talk daily about more than the kids. No real emotional or physical connection.
I'm keeping on validating, boundaries, 180s. I'm still debating filing myself. Do i go back to basics for now? It seems like being friendlier is at least more peaceful than when we didnt interact. Once we got friendlier, I think that may be what moved her a little away from 100 percent certain she wants to D.
You should be at home with her as little as possible. Speaking of that, what are your GAL plans for tonight?
Lol. Leg day at the gym today. Its sad though. D4 told my sister that Im not around enough and she misses me. I bring the kids on some GAL activities but sometimes its too much with their ages. An excuse, I know. Cant wait for spring so I can get kids out more to parks.
Ugh. Leg Day $ucks. Necessary evil, though.
Maybe you can bring the kids? Probably too young for strength training, at this point...
Well, GAL is going to be odd. Coronavirus cases popped up around me and recommendations are to limit non essential trips out the house. D4 and I are sick and have hopefully just a cold. Lots of time all together in this small place.
I'm still conflicted on the course of action I take here for myself. Interact with W or pull away? No matter how much GAL I do, we are in each others presence several times a day. My place is smaller than many apartments. Theres no use in us making separate meals or one person spending and going out everyday. Maybe I'm again avoiding what I need to do? Thing is, we are slowly getting more decent with each other. Sans physical contact missing, we're seeming back to where we were a few months before BD. So by what Michelle says, I dont know if me changing and conversing more helped and to keep it up or if we are just becoming friends.
On one end, I think becoming friends is good. We could build off that or at least be decent coparents. Anyone end up as friends then make it work? I of course prefer an alternative and dont want to be a friend or a plan b for long if thats the case.
Take care of yourself and your D4. You know the drill, wash the hands, drink plenty of fluids and lots of rest. Also, limit trips out of the house until you are absolutely sure it's just a cold.
Well, GAL is going to be odd. Coronavirus cases popped up around me and recommendations are to limit non essential trips out the house. D4 and I are sick and have hopefully just a cold. Lots of time all together in this small place.
I'm still conflicted on the course of action I take here for myself. Interact with W or pull away? No matter how much GAL I do, we are in each others presence several times a day. My place is smaller than many apartments. Theres no use in us making separate meals or one person spending and going out everyday. Maybe I'm again avoiding what I need to do? Thing is, we are slowly getting more decent with each other. Sans physical contact missing, we're seeming back to where we were a few months before BD. So by what Michelle says, I dont know if me changing and conversing more helped and to keep it up or if we are just becoming friends.
On one end, I think becoming friends is good. We could build off that or at least be decent coparents. Anyone end up as friends then make it work? I of course prefer an alternative and dont want to be a friend or a plan b for long if thats the case.
Ok I'm working with just under 1200 sq ft. With 4 humans the size of adults. Both my girls are taller than me. We've manged to make it work even during the worst of times. We kinda set up zones. I was in the MBR and he was in the living room the girls would come and go as they pleased. I would only be in the living room if the kids were in there. He would only come in the MBR with permission or if I wasn't in there at all. But we were good at physical boundaries. I have crappy weather where I live so we were stuck in the house together probably more than some of the vets on here would've approved of. I'm also naturally a homebody so my GALing wasn't constantly going out. A lot of it was reclaiming space in my own home since we were all walking on egg shells around H for a while. You can maintain space and physical boundaries in a small space.
I always made dinner for 4. I wasn't like making him a plate. I wasn't packing left overs for lunch. I wouldn't even tell him dinner was ready to be honest. When things were really, really bad he wouldn't even eat my food. Conversely when H and I were barely speaking still but he wasn't hostile any more we were (and are currently) taking turns making dinner and doing laundry together on Sunday nights. Every single rule laid out for you by vets on here you don't have to follow if they don't work for your sitch, BUT and this is a big but, you have to figure out the line between doing something because it's convenient and you won't inconvenience yourself just to have the upper hand and appeasement. It can be a thin line sometimes. Sometimes it's broad. It's all a matter of what's working in your house and for you specifically. Wooba and May22 and I talk about that a bit on I think wooba's thread some where.
As far interacting with W, IMHO if W interacts with you interact with her. But I wouldn't seek out interaction, even if things are getting less tense. Things might be getting less tense because you're ignoring her and she's chasing you just a little bit. Maybe it is the changes you're making. Or maybe it's just time passing and she's starting to soften. Just pay attention to when she wants to be friendly, decide from there.
I got nothing on the friends thing. You've seen my thread. I have no idea if it helps or hurts. I think it helps sometimes; I think it hurts sometimes; but every sitch is so different. You gotta just do what works for you.
I gave it some thought. Right now W is more like an acquaintance and or sister to me than a W or friend.
I thought about what I've enjoyed and disliked about our relationship from a few months before BD until now.
There is not much I enjoy. She cooks alot of meals, watches the kids and is ok to engage in conversation if the convo is short. This is not a spouse.
Everyday I dont D, she gets more spousal support.
Now the amount of bad things that crossed my mind. Long story short, it took me awhile to stop coming up with more problems or traits.
So, I see no reason to be friends or married other than finances and for the kids.
So finances, I'll fall under gov assistance until I get out of spousal payments.
For the kids, they will indeed lose but they will get a healthier father. Maybe I pay W to watch the kids if we could agree to terms.
Future OM and OW affect on kids, I have no plans to marry again. Maybe just short term fun but my eyes are open now. This would just happen all over again, no matter who I become because it is how the current generation is. OMs I can't control and I imagine a few will come and go. If I can afford it, Id get kids in counseling to help them deal with any issues.
My only last reason to stay is religion. Well since infidelity occurred, its allowable for me to D.
I have little reason to stay and quite a few to leave. Everyday I allow this limbo to continue, I lose respect for myself.
What am I missing? What's the point? Even if we R and Im happy with myself, would she learn to be happy with herself and would I be happy with her? Thats a stretch. I was thinking of giving her another chance to go to counseling but now I think I just want to D and move on with my life. Have my house my way, raise my kids my way, work for me and my kids. No more daily passive aggression, put downs, snarky comments. No more giving up my wants and needs. I think I just hit walkaway mindset. She had her chance.
Now that I'm fully ready to step away, W is suddenly talking to me more, asking to do something as a family, initiating multiple non relationship chats. WTF.
One gripe I had after BD is that W didnt tell me how she was feeling and the D caught me by surprise. Being a WW and me DBing I think the recommendation is to not tell her how I'm feeling, right? So essentially I'm doing the same thing right back to her.
Should I ask for counseling one last time before I tell her I want to D and set up mediation?
I think if you were ready to step away, you would just do it and file. Its going to take a lot of subtle effort and time. If you don't have the patience or desire, then maybe you can push into C and D conversations.
I'm looking at least a year, maybe 2 of limbo. I admit I do like to see progress, and have, but detaching is vital. The work we must put in is hard to believe, but at the end I want to know I did.
Id have more patience if I had more incentive to keep her in my life. She treats and treated me badly, withheld affection and intimacy often, makes fun of my interests, didnt spend time doing things together....the list goes on. I ask myself often now...why would I want her back?
Now I found out, she is contacting some friends telling them lies about me. For example, she told them Im in a massive panic over being work at home now. Im happy to be at home and Corona gives me no fear. This is something shes done for awhile...she makes up how I feel instead of asking me, then tells others her assumption and is validated for putting up with so much. She told someone that she is "doing alright but is still unhappy". Well of course!??! Youve done nothing but avoid the situation yet you think it would change or that I would crawl back to you?
Im not sure why I'm still stalling. I know what I have to do. I think I just dont want to be the one to do it.
For the time being...how do I set a boundary when she makes a disrespectful face? She does it often, as an example, I mispronounced a word which apparently disgusted her to the point of her needing to make a face. How would I enforce a boundary when shes got nothing to lose?
I don’t appreciate you making that face at me when I mispronounce a word. It’s very disrespectful. Then walk away.
Should I ask for counseling one last time before I tell her I want to D and set up mediation?
Well....
She treats and treated me badly, withheld affection and intimacy often, makes fun of my interests, didnt spend time doing things together....the list goes on. I ask myself often now...why would I want her back?
Now I found out, she is contacting some friends telling them lies about me. For example, she told them Im in a massive panic over being work at home now. Im happy to be at home and Corona gives me no fear. This is something shes done for awhile...she makes up how I feel instead of asking me, then tells others her assumption and is validated for putting up with so much. She told someone that she is "doing alright but is still unhappy". Well of course!??! Youve done nothing but avoid the situation yet you think it would change or that I would crawl back to you?
Sounds like you answered your own question. But in case you don't see it, no do not ask for counseling. If SHE approaches YOU about possible recon then one of your stipulations should be that SHE gets counseling. The above issues are serious and she needs help with that. After some number of months of IC THEN the two of you could consider MC.
For the time being...how do I set a boundary when she makes a disrespectful face? She does it often, as an example, I mispronounced a word which apparently disgusted her to the point of her needing to make a face. How would I enforce a boundary when shes got nothing to lose?
Great response from LH. But even better would be to quit talking to her. Keep it to business only. She starts getting chatty then tell her you've got things to do and end the convo. Work on that detachment.
For the time being...how do I set a boundary when she makes a disrespectful face? She does it often, as an example, I mispronounced a word which apparently disgusted her to the point of her needing to make a face. How would I enforce a boundary when shes got nothing to lose?
Have you tried talking in a fake accent and purposely mispronouncing more words? That's what I would do...
Core,
If a disrespectful causes you to react than you have the problem not her. We all mispronounce words and we all make mistakes. If you mispronounce a word, correct yourself (if you feel) or continue talking. Her face making shouldn't concern you. You can't control face making, it's her face and she can do what she wants with it, if it doesn't harm you physically or change your outcome in life, don't let it bother you.
If you just continue on and not let it bother you over time she will notice and most likely stop. Most people do things that they know people react to. Stop reacting!!!
You got this. If you all recon, than you can voice you displeasure with her face making and how it makes you feel.
Joejoe
Thank you all for the feedback. And the laugh mtb. I hit my limit with Ws s*** today. Joejoe I couldnt stand by and allow it...a flaw of mine or strength, I dont know. LH and AS, the feedbacks always appreciated. I confronted W while I was working. It went about as expected but the thing is, I didnt care about the outcome. What started it was minor. She made a snide remark in a disrespectful tone in front of both kids.
Where im disappointed in myself is that I reacted in anger and not loving detachment. I told her that the disrespect stops right here. Im tired of it. I told her im not saying this out of control but to protect me. If she doesnt stop, then I will stop talking to her entirely.
As expected it flipped on me, it was my fault she said things the way she did. I validated then challenged this. I explained that I deserve to be treated better. Prob a bad move as it seems like pursuit and control. She invalidated me, flipped it on me and she started an R chat that we both quickly got out of. Said she is trying to let go of all the anger and is discontent. I validated and told her I have a store to go to and left. As I said in a earlier post, if one is not content yet does nothing about it, then nothing will happen. I want to tell her this.
Whats sad is Im sitting here knowing she'll passive aggressively get me back for bringing this up. She completely played like the victim and acted like she could do no wrong. My anger was unnecessary, I agree to that and I know I dont control her. I also know its unacceptable for the kids to see her actions against me. All she did was push me further towards D. It may be what she wants. It may be what we both want. This will be a long quarantine.
I was there before BD.
Seems as if you let her get in your head way too much. Self focus, actions over words. She should not trigger you once you are in the right place.
Thus far, when I really started focusing on myself, GAL and taking actions I have gradually lost the anger and tenseness. This allows better communication. Its not about her...it about you.
Also has led to changes in W actions in a positive way.
She made a snide remark in a disrespectful tone in front of both kids.
Where im disappointed in myself is that I reacted in anger and not loving detachment. I told her that the disrespect stops right here. Im tired of it. I told her im not saying this out of control but to protect me. If she doesnt stop, then I will stop talking to her entirely.
Actually I don't think you should be disappointed, unless maybe it was the way you said it (yelling versus telling her sternly). It needed to be said. You set a boundary. Now it's important to STICK TO IT or she will continue the disrespect. How do you stick to it? If the disrespect continues then you shut her down just like you said you would.
As expected it flipped on me, it was my fault she said things the way she did. I validated then challenged this.
That was an inappropriate time for validation. When you set a boundary then you stick to it, don't flip back and forth from demanding a boundary to validating. And don't challenge her, your boundary was what? You stop the disrespect OR I WILL STOP TALKING TO YOU ENTIRELY. So she flipped it on you, IE continued the disrespect and your response should have been to leave the room.
Whats sad is Im sitting here knowing she'll passive aggressively get me back for bringing this up.
If she does then you enforce your boundary. Stop talking to her.
Core,
Let's work thru this together.
Questions:
What are your boundaries and consequences for a snide remark?
What are you boundaries and consequences for rude facial expressions?
Put you answers down on a sheet of paper, so you can read them over and over.
Once you state your boundary and provide you consequences the gauntlet is laid and there's backing away or do overs.
So you have to prepare yourself to react not in anger but in confidence and calmness, if you react in anger you are going to say things you can't take back.
IMPO (In my personal opinion) Try to create boundaries and consequences around facial expressions and snide remarks makes you look weak and petty. The best way to deal with her is to rise above her being petty and present a calm and confident man.
She makes a rude facial expression, you look at her calmly and you don't react at all, because you know what you said makes sense and is not wrong/you're right. Or maybe you did something wrong, but you correct yourself and get it moving.
Remember, you aren't trying to go back and forth with your W, your are showing her a new and improve man. How does a new and improve Core acts/reacts and presents himself to the world.
Onward and Forward.
Questions:
What are your boundaries and consequences for a snide remark?
If its not a joking remark, I tell her I wont engage with someone who makes remarks like that and tell her Ill engage with her in the future when shes ready to communicate respectfully.
What are you boundaries and consequences for rude facial expressions?
Same as above
Put you answers down on a sheet of paper, so you can read them over and over.
Once you state your boundary and provide you consequences the gauntlet is laid and there's backing away or do overs.
So you have to prepare yourself to react not in anger but in confidence and calmness, if you react in anger you are going to say things you can't take back.
IMPO (In my personal opinion) Try to create boundaries and consequences around facial expressions and snide remarks makes you look weak and petty. The best way to deal with her is to rise above her being petty and present a calm and confident man.
She makes a rude facial expression, you look at her calmly and you don't react at all, because you know what you said makes sense and is not wrong/you're right. Or maybe you did something wrong, but you correct yourself and get it moving.
Remember, you aren't trying to go back and forth with your W, your are showing her a new and improve man. How does a new and improve Core acts/reacts and presents himself to the world.
Onward and Forward.
Thanks for the response. I kicked it around in my head for a few days. I see no point staying around her if she can't be respectful. I bring a lot of value to a family, woman and R yet she can treat me poorly.... Im not having it. She is living a great life because of what my family and I provided. She just wanted more. One thing i couldn't provide with mass sleep loss. Passion. That and I showed weakness with anxiety and she pulls away. Pulled away too far in to anothers virtual arms.
My family is safe, protected and completely provided for during this crisis because of my planning and choices. She still complained on the phone a week ago to a friend that she is unhappy. "Im just not happy with him, Im unhappy".
I dont know what more one could want. Why does she think its my job to make her happy? She has a beautiful family, a nice house, top school district, had a husband that adored her and shared in her interests, bedroom was good, loving family on my side, financial security. She had all the groundwork to help her from distractions and find her own happiness. Instead she seeks OM for the missing passion I cant provide with a newborn. Does she think im going to crawl back and woo her after her affair while she takes no action? Legit, no improvements done on her end. No action taken to help herself through this.
What am I supposed to do? No one of her end knows of her affair that I know of. They all are told I'm some monster that cant keep my wife happy. She jokes to her friend how I mentioned I wont talk to her unless she is respectful. Like its some random new thing to respect someone who gave you almost everything you have. What the F. Im pushed further, I see no point staying with her anymore. If she can't self reflect, then she'll always make me or future men responsible for her happiness. Not fair to any man. I hope my daughter doesnt learn from her.
What else do I do for me and the kids in a situation like this? Its been I think two full months since her and OM had a communication. 9 to 10 months since this all started. I dont think I want a OW or her. This all just disgusts me on such a deep level. My story and the others here. The WWs seem so much less likely to return than a WH. Im my case, the person who'd return would be the same whom left. I dont want that for me or the kids. She's lying about me to friends amd family...I know with 100 percent certainty. Why would I want someone who lies to everyone close to her?
C,
Unfortunately that’s a common theme in long term marriages. At some point when the LBS feels unhappy the marriage is up for review. If she doesn’t put in any effort she’s not going to magically fall back in love with you.
You made the statement that you don’t want your W and you don’t want another woman. I would argue that if that’s the case why can’t you just keep living like you are right now? Continue to GAL, detach and work on yourself. You’re way to focused on what she’s doing and saying.
LH,
Its mostly pride, ego and my morals pushing me to D. While I work my job and improve myself, she gets the joys of raising the kids. Now I know a lot of people think raising kids and being SAHM is really hard. For some I believe it is but not with my kids. They are great kids. When W is gone and Ive days alone with the kids, its easy. Its a dream.
So Im possibly getting a promotion. While I am not Ding, W gets half my earnings, 401k, more alimony. Im not gaining much more than turmoil from her while she gets comfort, stability and money from me. Each passing day makes me resent her sitting on her A doing nothing towards fixing any of this, except complain of course.
Hi All,
Do you have any last thoughts for my sitch? I'd love Sandi or Sandi like 2x4s.
W stopped sleeping alone and now sleeps in D4s tiny bed with D4. My IC tells me this is harmful for D4 and my W knows its not healthy. Rather than address our issues, she's avoiding them and impacting D4. My relationship with D4 suffers. She used to want me for everything but now avoids me, ignores me at times. Her actions arent the same with my W. Im ok losing my W but I cant bear to lose my daughter. I think I need to file for D to prevent further deterioration of our daddy daughter relationship. I'm starting to miss my D4 and she's right here.
W is not doing anything to fix herself or the sitch. Just coasting by, pretending. She's avoided fixing issues with her own family for as long as I've known her so I don't foresee her coming to terms with her contribution to the destruction of her relationships any time soon.
What do I do for D4, S1 and I? Is there any point in trying to salvage the M? On detaching...its difficult as we are quarantined together. Everytime I feel detached, its like she senses it and acts differently, being kind and talkative. When i start to feel connected, she begins distancing. Is this the rest of my life if we fix the M? I can never be connected and loving? Whats the point?
I think I was too easy on her when she asked to reconcile. Now what do I do? I see D as my only course of action. Either it wakes her up or we D. Either way I am ok with the outcome for me and I'm starting to like both options for the kids. I realize I'm asking what to do to fix her and thats not ideal but what else can I do? I've worked on me already and will continue to do so. I'm losing interest on that end...I loved who I was. I'm working on my weaknesses but Im not going to go overboard.
You're not going to lose your daughter. What do you do for you, your W, and your family? Be a good, strong man. Detach. Become mentally strong. Excel in work, excel personal relationship, excel in financials, do everything you know you should. Grow, learn.
Everytime I feel detached, its like she senses it and acts differently, being kind and talkative. When i start to feel connected, she begins distancing. Is this the rest of my life if we fix the M? I can never be connected and loving? Whats the point?
Pursuit/distancer dynamic. Learn it, understand it, weaponize it. You are allow yourself to be a victim when you could be so much more.
Go read the chapter "It Takes One To Tango". When you change how you act it changes how others interact with you.
"Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way".
C,
When your kids are older and they asked why you divorced and your W says because Daddy filed can you live with it?
If so then file. It definitely won’t wake her up but I understand what you are saying.
Hi All,
Do you have any last thoughts for my sitch? I'd love Sandi or Sandi like 2x4s.
I'll bite.
W stopped sleeping alone and now sleeps in D4s tiny bed with D4. My IC tells me this is harmful for D4 and my W knows its not healthy. Rather than address our issues, she's avoiding them and impacting D4. My relationship with D4 suffers. She used to want me for everything but now avoids me, ignores me at times. Her actions arent the same with my W. Im ok losing my W but I cant bear to lose my daughter. I think I need to file for D to prevent further deterioration of our daddy daughter relationship. I'm starting to miss my D4 and she's right here.
Maybe tell her: "W, I would like you to stop sleeping with D4."
Nothing else. No reasoning, no arguing, no claims how it is impacting D4. You can't control her.
W is not doing anything to fix herself or the sitch. Just coasting by, pretending. She's avoided fixing issues with her own family for as long as I've known her so I don't foresee her coming to terms with her contribution to the destruction of her relationships any time soon.
Focusing on her, her, her. I also don't foresee her changing soon, why would she?
What do I do for D4, S1 and I? Is there any point in trying to salvage the M?
Only you can make this decision. I like making pro/con lists. Try to think beyond "staying M'ed is best for the kids".
On detaching...its difficult as we are quarantined together. Everytime I feel detached, its like she senses it and acts differently, being kind and talkative. When i start to feel connected, she begins distancing. Is this the rest of my life if we fix the M? I can never be connected and loving? Whats the point?
Sounds like maybe you detach for awhile, then she throws you crumbs and you gobble them up. Next time, maintain your detachment.
Honestly Core you sound clingy sometimes. I was like this too. If my W gave me a hug I was wagging my tail like a puppy. You deserve better, but you also have a lot you can do to work on yourself right now. You don't need the validation of your W's affection to be happy. I think your W has very very little respect for you -- less than even you think she does. You aren't going to dig out of this by detaching a little bit. You will just prolong your suffering.
I think I was too easy on her when she asked to reconcile. Now what do I do? I see D as my only course of action. Either it wakes her up or we D. Either way I am ok with the outcome for me and I'm starting to like both options for the kids. I realize I'm asking what to do to fix her and thats not ideal but what else can I do? I've worked on me already and will continue to do so. I'm losing interest on that end...I loved who I was. I'm working on my weaknesses but Im not going to go overboard.
Do NOT file for D as a wake-up call.
Do NOT file for D to try to change her.
You file for D when you accept the consequences and think it is the best decision for you and your kids.
Thank you guys for the responses. I'm so messed up right not that I almost don't want to work on myself because she will benefit from it. I tried to picture holding W in my arms or saying loving things to each other and I got disgusted. My W disgusts me.
Today she rolled her eyes at me like a teenager when I was trying a new method to stop ome of S1s tantrums. Blatant disrespect. Not only that but does one realize how they are perceived when they roll their eyes?
What do I do to build respect? U is right that there is still none. Even if we D, we need respect. Ive kicked her out of the mbr, told her she can leave or file any time she desires, put boundaries down. Im enforcing my last boundary and am only communicating kid logistics since the eyeroll.
Ovr, what book is that chapter from? The book in cadets links? I feel like i cant get much more distant from W as it is already. I think we are both distancing.
Im defeated, exhausted, hopeless and lack the will to stay in this marriage. I'm ashamed that we are here. I pictured signing the divorce papers and got so happy yesterday. This was all preventable with a little communication and self improvements. I'd rather live alone and miss half the kids childhoods than live with this version of W. If I file, I'll never know if its the right or wrong choice. All the other sitches similar to mine that ended in a happy reconcile seemed to resolve quicker than mine.
I also see Sandi mentioning that in home separations never work. What do I do if W wont leave?...I can't leave the house or its abandonment of the kids. This is indeed soul sucking. OM may be gone but so if any version of W that I can stand.
Straight from the horse's mouth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55N-kTActvQMaybe it's not a chapter I can't recall exactly. But MWD has a lot of Youtube content out there. Look, if your W were a guy and I were you, I'd be about ready to crack him in the mouth at this point but that is only going to make things worse. You have to realize that she is pushing your buttons and looking for a reaction. Don't give it to her. Ignore it and make your way out of the room or to a different activity.
I was in limbo for over a year, and even then, it takes a lot of time to settle in again. Either way, divorce or marriage, you're going to have to get used to a new normal.
Time to stop worrying about her so much IMO.
C,
Here’s the problem you are not detached so in essence you’re not ready to file. If you were detached limbo would be a piece of cake for you. It’s easy for your W because she doesn’t want to save the marriage. I suspect you think filing will either wake her up or make you feel better. I will do neither. I was in limbo a lot longer then you and when times got tough I would think about my children and get up and prepare for another round.
I have been listening to a lot of Peter Crones podcasts and one of his famous quotes is “Life will present you with people and situations to show you where you are not free”. The point is all of life is uncertain and you better get fuching used to it. You have to learn to be ok that you don’t know the outcome and you’re ok with it. Trust the universe.
So my suggestion to you is to work on being detached so then you can make a decision that is based on logic and not emotion (fear)
Life is $hitty sometimes and it will punch you in the face like a MFer. The goal is to keep getting up to go another round. If you need a reason just think about your young children.
I’m not going lie, it’s not easy but it builds character.
I'm so messed up right not that I almost don't want to work on myself because she will benefit from it.
WhAt?!?!
Today she rolled her eyes at me like a teenager when I was trying a new method to stop ome of S1s tantrums. Blatant disrespect. Not only that but does one realize how they are perceived when they roll their eyes?
No she doesn't realize it.
What do I do to build respect? U is right that there is still none. Even if we D, we need respect. Ive kicked her out of the mbr, told her she can leave or file any time she desires, put boundaries down. Im enforcing my last boundary and am only communicating kid logistics since the eyeroll.
You cannot INSIST on respect. You can learn techniques to command respect. But ultimately, she may not ever respect you. You can only control your part of the equation. Eyerolls I would shrug off.
Im defeated, exhausted, hopeless and lack the will to stay in this marriage. I'm ashamed that we are here. I pictured signing the divorce papers and got so happy yesterday. This was all preventable with a little communication and self improvements. I'd rather live alone and miss half the kids childhoods than live with this version of W. If I file, I'll never know if its the right or wrong choice. All the other sitches similar to mine that ended in a happy reconcile seemed to resolve quicker than mine.
Core, you often sound really stirred up with anxiety in your posts. As an anxiety sufferer myself, it took a long time (and is still a WIP) for me to build calm confidence in my decisions, rather than dive into the mentally exhausting cycle of anxiety. Often anxiety had me thinking "Either I do A, or I do B". This is a fallacy.
Whether or not you end up filing for D, it's not going to make you happy or not. Other factors will.
I’ve been quiet dealing with our new normal but I have been checking in on you Core and honestly I’ve mostly been silent because watching you spin is painful for me. You need to get a hold of yourself. You think you know exactly what you feel and what you want but it’s super clear you are highly emotional and not 100% rational about your sitch still. Please go to my first thread. I talk a lot about knowing what it feels like with you’re truly detached enough to make a decision because I had to do it with my daughters father. It doesn’t feel desperate. It feels like taking a walk. Or opening a new book. It’s not driven by anger or fear or sadness. It’s clear and calm. Please read what LH19 says about detachment.
Next. Since I’m like the only chick who comments on here for you and I’m kind of a b**ch I need you to try to read this with an open mind. You’re wife doesn’t like you right now. She’s there. So she’s trying to be a family. She has one foot in the MR. So you can choose to accept that one foot in and actually really truly work on you and those anxious and controlling behaviors. And what ever else you feel like there’s room for improvement for. Or you can just call it. But you don’t get to walk away saying you tried everything because you didn’t. She is not required to respect you. You are not allowed to demand she give you respect. I’ve told you multiple times to check your ego and don’t talk to W like she’s a child. You are not her daddy. If you want her to keep acting like a teenager keep treating her like one. Treat her like an annoying room mate. You don’t talk to your room mate like they owe you respect. Their name is on the lease. It’s not that simple to get them out. Play nice and avoid fights. Don’t escalate. Which I’ve also told you before. You choose to engage. You choose to escalate. “Don’t you roll your eyes at me.” Is not a boundary. Not even close. That’s you making your ego a priority over peace. You are just as capable of ignoring her as she is at getting under your skin. Take some personal responsibility here for the way you feel. She doesn’t control the way you feel. You do.
. That’s you making your ego a priority over peace. You are just as capable of ignoring her as she is at getting under your skin. Take some personal responsibility here for the way you feel. She doesn’t control the way you feel. You do.
Yes. You should listen to her. I don’t comment on a lot of people’s threads because I don’t feel qualified to give advice most of the time, but when I feel it, I comment. I do quietly read along with a lot of threads though.
Some people seem to just be naturals at this. I think Wayfarer is one of them. This is summed up so well. If I look back on what I regret most about the way I handled my situation for at least the first half of it, it’s this. It’s making my ego a priority over peace. That may even sum up my regrets about the way I was in my marriage. This hits hard, and you should take this to heart for sure.
Straight from the horse's mouth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55N-kTActvQLook, if your W were a guy and I were you, I'd be about ready to crack him in the mouth at this point but that is only going to make things worse. You have to realize that she is pushing your buttons and looking for a reaction. Don't give it to her. Ignore it and make your way out of the room or to a different activity.
I was in limbo for over a year, and even then, it takes a lot of time to settle in again. Either way, divorce or marriage, you're going to have to get used to a new normal.
Thanks for the link Ovr. I spent a good couple hours out a whole bunch of her vids. Never thought to look her up on youtube. The thing with how W acts, namely disrespectfully, isnt ignoring it a bad thing? No one has ever treated me as poorly as her and if it were anyone else they'd be out of my life for good.
Here’s the problem you are not detached so in essence you’re not ready to file. If you were detached limbo would be a piece of cake for you. It’s easy for your W because she doesn’t want to save the marriage. I suspect you think filing will either wake her up or make you feel better. I will do neither. I was in limbo a lot longer then you and when times got tough I would think about my children and get up and prepare for another round.
I have been listening to a lot of Peter Crones podcasts and one of his famous quotes is “Life will present you with people and situations to show you where you are not free”. The point is all of life is uncertain and you better get fuching used to it. You have to learn to be ok that you don’t know the outcome and you’re ok with it. Trust the universe.
So my suggestion to you is to work on being detached so then you can make a decision that is based on logic and not emotion (fear)
Life is $hitty sometimes and it will punch you in the face like a MFer. The goal is to keep getting up to go another round. If you need a reason just think about your young children.
A day at a time with detachment, it goes well until she acts disrespectfully, completely illogically or neglects things that affect us both like not paying bills. The young children is whats making this so hard. My decision to D is in the forefront of my mind most of the time, when I feel logical and detached and more so when emotions are running. I havent had the thought of trying to make it work in awhile.
What do I do to build respect? U is right that there is still none. Even if we D, we need respect. Ive kicked her out of the mbr, told her she can leave or file any time she desires, put boundaries down. Im enforcing my last boundary and am only communicating kid logistics since the eyeroll.
You cannot INSIST on respect. You can learn techniques to command respect. But ultimately, she may not ever respect you. You can only control your part of the equation. Eyerolls I would shrug off.
Im defeated, exhausted, hopeless and lack the will to stay in this marriage. I'm ashamed that we are here. I pictured signing the divorce papers and got so happy yesterday. This was all preventable with a little communication and self improvements. I'd rather live alone and miss half the kids childhoods than live with this version of W. If I file, I'll never know if its the right or wrong choice. All the other sitches similar to mine that ended in a happy reconcile seemed to resolve quicker than mine.
Core, you often sound really stirred up with anxiety in your posts. As an anxiety sufferer myself, it took a long time (and is still a WIP) for me to build calm confidence in my decisions, rather than dive into the mentally exhausting cycle of anxiety. Often anxiety had me thinking "Either I do A, or I do B". This is a fallacy.
Whether or not you end up filing for D, it's not going to make you happy or not. Other factors will.
Happiness being internal is on point. I've been working on that and am way better than 8 months ago thankfully. On the anxiety end...its feeling less like anxiety and more like injustice. Right and wrong. When I'm treated with disrespect, its anger, honor and ego kicking in. Especially when the kids are present. If W eye rolls, D4 is watching and my actions set the tone of what someone should do when this occurs. I dont want either kid to learn to sit around and take it.
Wayfarer and Hope, thanks for stopping by. My thoughts on ego and control, and please bear with me as I think I'm not connecting fully with what you're telling me. My W and I are an example for my kids. They are learning from her that treating an H, or being treated by a woman the way my W treats me is ok. If I dont respond, the kids and W see their Dad as a doormat, and may think allowing blatant disrespect is ok. They may also think its ok to do the same to me. D4 has at times then is scolded and cries...confused because mommy did it too. I also believe most people in general are disgusted and unattracted if a man is weak and lets his W walk over him. I know youre not saying to allow my W to walk over me. Im trying to understand where the line is. Im hearing your point but not fully understanding.
My W would flip a lid if D4 rolled her eyes at her. W gets upset if D4 doesnt use full sentences when speaking with her. So I know respect is of big importance to my W and her acting like a teen to me is purposeful to make a point that she fails to do rationally with words. I get W doesn't like me right now. I feel the same with her so I know how she feels. The difference is I dont attack her or put her down. Thats not right to do to your kids' parent especially when kids are around. When W does or says something I don't like, i dont understand the comments on keeping the peace. To me that sounds like being a push over and giving up my boundaries and self respect. She might not like when I challenge her actions but wont she respect that I wont tolerate her being intolerable? What am I missing? Being looked down upon and treated like a brother or W's father doesnt feel like peace to me as the LBH.
C,
I am with you brother do not let her disrespect you at all and especially in front of the children. Have you discussed this with her?
Look, I can respect that every one has a different line in the sand for what they consider disrespect. Maybe my threshold is just higher because honestly I've been called the c word by my daughter's father on more than one occasion. Which for informational purposes you should know it accomplished absolutely nothing because he doesn't have that kind of power over me. I couldn't care less what he says to me. And if it were possible to care even less than that, that's how much I care about him respecting me. Contrary to popular belief the objective concept of respect isn't owed to any one. My purpose of posting what I did is that I think you need to consider that you can't stand her right now and therefor her every motion has your hackles raised. That there is a possibility that you are blowing things a bit out of proportion because your emotions are riding high. Because honestly if you can't stand her, Every breath she takes is going to be offensive. And if that's the case, fine. So be it. You don't have to love her. Or try to make this work. Or stay in this marriage. Or be her friend. But you will be living with this woman as part of your life for a very, very, very long time and if you can't start managing your own emotions and behaviors through detachment you have a very, very, long, bumpy road ahead of you.
Do you think most of us co-parenting with our exes are 100% respectful to each other 100% of the time? We're not. And no matter how hard we try to stay above board we aren't always pleasant or kind in front of our kids either. People in healthy happy marriages are 100% respectful to each to each other 100% of the time. What I can tell you though is what those of us co-parenting don't do. We don't give a hoot about what the exes say or do when they interact with us if it has absolutely nothing to do with the actual care and keeping of our children. My ex called me a b*tch at Christmas this past
Christmas and I wasn't even there. We haven't been together in 8 years. Let me tell you how much I care. I laughed when D17 told me what happened. D17 put his butt into place, loved on her grandparents and then left. I didn't need to be there. I didn't need to command his respect. I had no need to show him how much self respect I have or lay boundaries for a person who doesn't care about anybody's boundaries but their own. I have our daughter's respect. I've given her the tools for self respect and boundaries with her father. I don't have a thing to prove to my ex. You want to be a good example to your kids. Show them what rising above looks like. Correcting their mother like a 3rd child isn't rising above. Like at all. All it's doing is feeding into a parent child marital relationship. Not giving a d@mn about what she says and does or thinks or feels about you. That's rising above.
So I'll go back to my previous statement. You want to feed your ego or do you want peace? Or as I've also heard it phrased do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? You want calm. You want quiet. You want your life to be less complicated. Less full of stress, and pain. You have to do that. She will try to get under your skin for the rest of your lives. And the only thing you can control in those situations are your actions and reactions. We all have choices to make in that space. I'm trying to offer you the alternative perspective and alternative approach of not every single action and reaction of others needs a response.
Do I want to be happy or do I want to be right... thank you for writing that.... do I want to feed my ego? Or do I want peace?
Now to find the practices to let go of my anger.
Core,
What wayfarer posted to you, is pure gold. You are so emotionally wrapped up in pride and gaining your W's respect, that you are having trouble getting yourselves grounded. If you are unable to detach, you will continue to spin.
Have you taken inventory of what has worked for you and what has not worked? Have you made any changes to your approach? What about short-term/long-term goals?
I see what you mean Wayfarer. Can I deal with with it going forward... I'm not sure. If she's my Ex and not in my face daily, sure. The fact now is, with how she acts and her lack of a job, no intimacy, she basically is acting like a child that I have to provide for. Who mooches off my labor. After several weeks stuck at home now and me doing stay at home dad stuff for a few weeks previously...she has it so easy watching the kids, watching TV, doing her hobbies, while I grind away at a job thats probably gone in three weeks.
I dont know if this counts as an in home separation or what. If it is, articles on the net and what Sandi says scares me, that theyve yet to see a successful in home separation. Is that what I'm doing now, or does that mean official separation where you date others? Should I get file the separation or D?
What doesnt work is living under the same roof. The only thing that worked thus far is when I told her we will separate our time with the kids. I got great advice her and it flipped her switch. Thats when she dropped OM and came back to the marriage for two days. OM is still gone but we are not bonding. We avoid each other, interactions are mostly neutral. Would a separation help here? A real separation would force her to get a job, a house and impact my kids, sending them to daycare. Other than that, I think confronting the affair, and kicking W out of the bedroom helped.
No other actions seemed to have an affect either way. I'm out of cards, I think all thats left is to truly walk away with a separation or D. If in home separation never work and what I'm doing counts as one, then I just wasted 9 months.
Am I doing the right thing? Currently we interact many times in the day, we eat dinner as a family and occasionally do a family movie night. If I'm playing with the kids in one room, she sometimes will come and sit next to me which is uncomfortable. We plan out grocery shopping together and anything for the kids. I help bring groceries in. She folds my laundry. GAL slowed down with quarantine and I missed my kids. The stuff I just stated, I probably need to stop, right? But then Im just a slug, hiding in a room away from the kids. I hate this. It disgusts me that we are still in this situation.
Im continuing to read and exercise, picked up a new game. I think I'm doing most of this right, except I should've forced the separation when W asked for space.
Literally that entire thing was about her changing. And not a single thing about you changing. And you sound like beyond bitter. Your kids are tiny. That's a full time job whether you help or not. If you're not helping it's 2 full time jobs. The fact that you are disgusted about spending money on her is really sad. She maybe a crappy wife, and a bad person but she's the mother of your children. And she seems to love them very much. Even if she doesn't always parent and co-parent the way you'd like. And with that in mind if this amount of money is disturbing to you, divorce is going to be a rude awakening for you my friend. Not everybody has to be me, but, my god man. You're expectations are off the wall. I get it your in a tight space. And this covid mess has every body running on 11 emotionally. Especially people with anxiety. But if you're in the US the curve doesn't look like it will flatten until the end of the month. Where I live you basically can't get a court date unless it's a criminal matter, most jurisdictional time lines are being waived. How do you think she'd move right now? How would that even be possible? Much less getting a job? Half this county is out of work right now. You have absolutely no choice but to work with what you have. And get a hold of yourself. It is not her job to reciprocate feelings for you. It's not her job to work on your time line. It's not her job feed your ego or work on the MR while you sit back and wait for her to change. H3ll, it's not her job to change. She can only do what she is emotionally capable of and what she feels is right for her. And that might not agree with what you think is right for you and/or the family. And because of that this might not be a marriage worth saving for you. But right now that's entirely besides the point.
I realize you're on top of each other, but you are not listening to me at all. You are the only one in control of your emotions. You are the only one in control of your actions. You are the only one in control of your reactions. Now it sounds like she's being a good co-parent for the most part and a good roommate. So what if she isn't being the wife you have idealized? Accept the good you're getting. You're stuck with it for the foreseeable future. And no you don't need to stop planning groceries and playing with the kids or doing movies with the kids together. What exactly do you think that would accomplish? Neither of you can leave. There is no prospects on the immediate horizon. Traditional DBing isn't going to work here #1. And #2 I'm not entirely sure how excluding yourself from those super specific activities living in the same home would even be DBing. What would be your plan as an alternative? Both adults go out and shop separately for separate meals when we're supposed to be limiting contact? Cutting yourself out of what seems like the last few months of memories for your daughter of the family as one unit under one roof because you want to teach your wife a lesson for not loving you? Or not loving you right? Seriously the question here isn't what card can you play to get your wife to behave the way you want her to. Filing isn't a wake up call. It's a nail in the coffin. You need to understand that. The question you really need to be asking is how can you behave and talk yourself into rational thinking so you don't make this super stressful time even more stressful for every one including you? I'm just going to say it outright. Shelf the D talk. Shelf the S talk. Shelf the bitterness. Shelf the expectations. The situation you are currently in is likely your life for the next 30 days. Maybe longer. So accept the good behavior. Ignore the bad. Start trying to find something to be grateful for every day. Your kids are the age to be high risk. You need to get your life in perspective right now.
Trust me I cry myself to sleep some nights still because he's still hot and cold. Even if it's hot more often then not these days. But we are all here. We are all healthy. H and I are still employed. And unfortunately still in limbo. But we've just decided to not talk about that since we're locked in. So be it. We're going to keep working at being amazing co-parents and roommates. And friends with benefits. Because that's where we're at. There's no point in fighting. Or being resentful. Or even wondering where we will be in 30 days. I can only think about the next day in front of us. We have no choice.
Hey Core,
First off, I don't pretend to understand how OM affects your standpoint. Her not working, etc. I can only imagine.
Given that, your interactions with W at home seem normal to me. At least similar to mine. I don't feel disrespected in general, but occasional flareups from W and I have gotten good at ignoring. Seems to my benefit. She has a lot going on in her head, as do I.
I don't know how long term an in-home separation works (seems very challenging to me without some space), but use this time where you are stuck to your advantage. If anything, you will have a better idea how to move forward when COVID is over.
Work with her on parenting, get her opinion. Give your areas of improvement a shot. Regardless of hers. I know my W is always more on edge than me and I always try to stay cool no matter what little flareup I may get from her throughout a day. That is natural I think in our situations.
Life is short...worry about you and take a step back to see where this might go. You have time.
Im here again with the same questions and dilemmas. Wayfarer, you mentioned your H is hot and cold. You get some positives signs that show you on some level that your actions are working or can give you hope. My W is cold, frigid and arctic. There is zero connection spiritually, physically or emotionally.
I get that this shouldn't be about her. I say, Why not if she is the problem? This site is about saving marriages. I continue to work on me for me and the kids. That stuff I can do on my own and I dont come for that. I do still come here hoping for insight in to fixing the marriage.
I dont know what I can do differently. So much of dbing and advice is contradictory. I got stuck the other day when W was sick (not the bug in the news) and slept in the mbr. At bedtime I told her Im going to sleep in the master.l as well. She asked if she could stay and I go elsewhere, I said no, Im going to sleep in the mbr. She got upset, said I told her it was ok to sleep in the room (I never said she cant), said our communication is off and left. Instead of validating I told her she is often acting like a victim and will remain one if she doesnt change. We acted normal the next day.
I dont know if Im supposed to be flirty, give space, leave or what. Tough love or caring. Gentle or hard. I read red pill stuff and man did that just make me spiteful. Im out of whack as that stuff seems legit and similar to some strategy here.
So virus cohabitsting aside and yes, my goal is an intact marriage, ideally with my kids mother...what do I do? Here's the flipside, per DB and advice, I shouldn't file for D or S. Per peoples experience, in home separation doesnt work. Well then, a choice has to be one or the other right? There is no other option.
Whats the damage of asking my W at this point what she wants to dom That and only that. She'll probably ask for space again if I do. If so, what then? If a spouse is a ball and chain, at this point it's like a corpse is attached to my leg. Theres no life in the M. Im so far gone that I dont have the energy to try, if thats even the right move.
She cheated, she mentally and verbally abused me. Why should I do anything to keep allowing her to live how we are?Wayfarer, you mention it was sad that I dont want to spend money on my kids mom. Why would I support a cheater and abuser who walked out? If your H was in my shoes, would you respect him providing for you while his life is made to be hell by you? Even if you did, would that make you lean toward marriage? This woman chose to demolish a family while one of her kids was not even one year old. Why sacrifice any more for her when there is seemingly zero chance of this paning out? If i had the mental energy to keep working on me, maybe it could but I still dont want this version of her back. I get D is expensive however dragging this out then Ding is more expensive for the breadwinner.
Im back to...what am I supposed to do to try to save the marriage and should I just relationship talk at this point? Its not pursuing if I just ask wtf she wants, right?
C,
You can absolutely communicate to her in a loving non threatening way that this is no longer working for you and that you would like to work to repair the marriage or go your separate ways and divorce. That is actually the alpha thing to do. But you better be 100% sure you are ready to follow. My guess is initially she will call your bluff.
^^^^What LH says. You said you want to have a relationship talk to ask her WTF she wants. Well, she wants to cake eat . So what you need to do is present her with the 2 scenarios like LH mentioned. Those are the 2 things that will work for YOU. That’s alpha. She doesn’t get the cake eating choice.
You ask if you should be flirty, or cold, or whatever. All I can tell you is, if you are flirty one minute, cold the next, distant an, joking in another breath, she isn’t going to believe anything. She’s going to think you are trying every tactic and nothing is real. You say to wayfarer why would you give money to someone who abuses you and is cheating. Well, why would you flirty with that same person?
If you can’t be still and consistent in this time, you’ll get no where. If you know for sure it’s either we are working on this or we are going out seperate ways, then you need to do it and stick to which one of those answers she gives you. If you aren’t ready for that, then you have to be still and not keep trying different things to find what “works” that isn’t going to change her mind or change who she is right now
I brought it up with her and she asked for more time, blaming the bug. I said I want an answer in the morning. If she doesnt give me one, then I would make the decision. I know what the answer is already based on that response and her lack of emotion. I can and can't believe Im divorcing with a 1 year old child and my kids will spend most of their childhoods without a stable family. All because of fixable issues.
I can't wait for my new life but I will always be saddened at what they have lost. I will probably always see my W as a demon for refusing to fix this. For putting on a mask and hiding her true past. I was specifically avoiding people with a past like hers and she knew it and hid it. As I sit here hearing my kids enjoying life downstairs, Im saddened everyone. They have no clue and maybe never will because of their ages.
Im saddened for W too. She couldve tried to fix this instead of turning to extremist websites for empowerment. Shes overall a good mom to the kids and for that I am thankful. I appreciate all the support as I move here to D. I came here thinking this would be fixed in a month and in the end, here I am losing time with the ones I care about most. Our ancestors would be ashamed at how this society now works. Now you can destory a perfectly good family over reasons so minor. Not even a pandemic could put Ws views in to perspective. Nothing will and I now join all the other friends and family who got close to her, didnt meet expectations and were removed from her life.
I understand exactly how you feel. My daughter was 6 months old when my ex left. He began cheating during my high risk/ IVF pregnancy, and left me for her when our baby was still just a baby. It’s 12 years later now. They are married.
Your kids will have a stable family. If she is a good mom and you are a good dad, your kids will have a stable family and will be happy. My daughter is 12. She is smart, has friends, loves school, and is a very happy kid. I would say her life is pretty stable. I think she would have been so well off if we stayed together and she say how her father treated me. I couldn’t change him just like you can’t get your ex to decide to fix things.
You will ok. Your kids will be ok. They won’t be ok if they see a dysfunction limbo relationship.
I never understood men like that Ginger. I'm so sorry you had to go through a similar situation. The part making me the saddest is missing time with the kids. They mean the world to me. I cannot fathom not seeing them for a week at a time. That's time that I can never get back.
W showed zero emotion, I dont know how she cant be upset over what she is doing and losing.
C,
I’m sorry it has come to this but in the long run it will be for the best. I’m not gonna lie, being away from my kids is not easy nor does it seem to get easier but it is what it is. We have an awesome relationship and make the best out of the time we have together.
Although not easy (trust me I know) try to have some love and compassion for your W as she is either a psychopath or is going through something herself.
Stay strong brother!
Thank you LH. I think its for the best as well, sadly. I wish it could be different for many of us. Life is too short to miss out on the biggest joys. Sadly W doesn't see it that way and would rather the joys of infatuation. I get why, that stage is great but its got nothing on watching my kids laugh, cuddle and sing together.
Im glad I tried. I wish I made big changes earlier though I dont know if that would've changed things. My family oriented daughter is going to take this so poorly.
I'm going to try to keep this as succinct as possible but trust there is so much more I'd like to say.
No marriage was fixed after an affair in a month. EVER. Not even the beginning of a true reconciliation. This was the beginning of your expectations being out of wack for a situation like this. Even in the best of circumstances, i.e. an immediately remorseful spouse bouncing back takes time. And a lot of it.
You can't put out chaotic energy and mixed messages and expect to receive consistency in return that's not a thing in human behavior.
The state nor any judge will give a crap that your wife cheated on you if she is doing the majority of the care and keeping of your children. Unless your family is ready to step up and co-parent with you, you have no viable option to argue for primary placement or even 50/50 while they are a) this little and b) the state of day care right now due to the pandemic. You will be paying, whether you like it or not. The court will not order her to get a job with 2 kids under 5 in the home. You need to have a real in depth conversation with a knowledgeable attorney, not someone who proselytizes themselves as a bulldog divorce attorney. They are going to give it to you straight and let you know what is really going to happen going forward here. I don't think you really have a fully flushed out concept of what the next year of your life is going to look like. Oh and your divorce won't be complete in a just a few months. You have very little kids. Ballpark I'd guess the better part of a year possibly pushing into 2 years. You need to get well established full picture of what this divorce is going to be so you can stop throwing it around like a weapon in your marriage and actually mean it.
I don't know how many other ways to say this to you, stop thinking separation, divorce and the pieces of it are pawns in this game, they are not. They are things you need to be willing to follow through with to the end. They will neither gain you favor or respect from W. They give you a resolution instead of hanging on the line ad infinitum, that's it. Occasionally that will get a WS/WAS to realize the end is near. But there's no guarantee. There are no guarantees on any of this. The human variable makes absolutely none of this fool proof.
Respect is an objective concept regardless of all the alpha posturing and other opinions around here. Granted I'm a woman so I have no concept of what it's like to expect people to respect you just because. Point being having self respect is what DBing is really about. Not trying to manipulate someone into kowtowing to your wishes and calling that respect.
You are not required to be in any relationship that doesn't serve you. But you seriously need to read the room right now. The room being the state of things in the world and the general capability of you being able to actually end your marriage right this moment. You were given a gift of time. How you choose to use it is up to you.
C,
Just out of curiosity what big changes are you talking about?
LH, I should've taken out my anxiety earlier. W dealt with it off and on for 3 years. I also knew little of validation and disagreed with her feelings at times rather than just listening. I also found god, healed relationships with my family, picked up goals again and killed it at the gym like my old days. These changes probably would've increased Ws attraction and love for me before we hit that point of no return. I changed after having kids and I should've 180d then.
Wayfarer, the only other option I see would be me continuing to be used as a doormat for her needs. The gift of time has been great, I just dont see it working when we see each other daily. Im 90 percent sure she still wants that relationship with OM. She had since October to make a change, or at least January when they truly cut off communications. This is all definitely an expectation of mine but a normal one isnt it? W could potentially go years with me in this spot. With kids seeing this as a normal marriage and me losing more alimony and time to build another relationship if I can ever trust again after this. I havent seen anything positive, only negative from her. I get why, she wanted out and she felt unsafe, unattracted or both because of my issues. What is your true take on what I do here? Wait it out indefinitely? If I did give more time, we'd still have a 1 to 2 year divorce process to go through. I still have time if I filed today. I think the big difference is W knows Im willing to walk away. Wayfarer, I'm throwing the card out for the kids, not me. I'm hoping it changes her mind. That is true. What I truly want is the kids to see a normal marriage or no marriage. D4 is already copying W and is saying she "isnt supposed to spend time or sit with daddy". Its not what mommys do.
My attorney divorced when her kid was one and says Ill get 50/50. W will need a job. She actually just started one part time and Ive been 60 percent furloughed. The timing [censored]. This isnt my choice. Please show me another way if there is one. I cant see how accommodating this person will fix my sitch. She has made zero progress to fix her relationships with her family members she removed from her life and she claims to care about them. She resents me and admits that. Say whatever you want here, I ask for 180s and Ive already had a lifetime of being offended.
I get that this shouldn't be about her. I say, Why not if she is the problem?
Because she thinks YOU are the problem, whether you are or not. So if you make it about her, it's just going to make her very angry and you'll be stuck in an endless pattern of "he said, she said".
I dont know what I can do differently.
Learn to be abundantly patient. It's the thing people struggle with most in DB'ing.
So much of dbing and advice is contradictory. I got stuck the other day when W was sick (not the bug in the news) and slept in the mbr. At bedtime I told her Im going to sleep in the master.l as well. She asked if she could stay and I go elsewhere, I said no, Im going to sleep in the mbr. She got upset, said I told her it was ok to sleep in the room (I never said she cant), said our communication is off and left. Instead of validating I told her she is often acting like a victim and will remain one if she doesnt change. We acted normal the next day.
OK so I'm guessing you see this as contradictory because we advise to stay in the MBR, which may seem to contrast with "keep the way hope paved and smooth." Here's the thing, don't confuse placating with being cordial. If you try and placate her, then she will have no respect for you. But if you do things to maintain respect while ALSO being kind and cordial, then THAT is proper DB'ing. So you tell her "I am sleeping in the MBR, you are welcome to sleep wherever you want, that is your choice." You're not telling her to sleep there and you're not telling her not to. You're simply telling her that you're sleeping there. You did nothing wrong in maintaining that you were sleeping there. But you DID mess up with the comment about her playing the victim. You should have validated as it sounds like you already know.
"I am sleeping in the MBR."
"But you told me it was OK to sleep in here!"
"And you are welcome to if that is what you want."
"So you'll leave?"
"No, I am sleeping here regardless of where you sleep."
"But that's not fair! Blah blah blah me me me!"
"It sounds like you're frustrated, is that how you feel? I am sorry you are frustrated."
"So you'll leave so I can sleep here?"
"No, I already told you I am sleeping here and you are welcome to sleep here or wherever you want."
You can be firm and stick to your boundaries while also validating and being understanding.
So virus cohabitating aside and yes, my goal is an intact marriage, ideally with my kids mother...what do I do? Here's the flipside, per DB and advice, I shouldn't file for D or S. Per peoples experience, in home separation doesnt work. Well then, a choice has to be one or the other right? There is no other option.
It's a tough situation to be sure. We all wish we could look into the future and see what the "right" path to take is. But we don't get that luxury, so we have to make some hard choices. In-house separation rarely leads to recon. But out-of-house separation also rarely leads to recon. Divorce rarely leads to recon. What does lead to recon more often than any of these? Time. Most of us just don't give it enough time, after a few months we get tired of waiting and push for S or D ourselves. More often than not here is what happens- the LBS gets tired of waiting. They push for S or D. They eventually detach and move on. THEN the WAS starts getting interested again and putting out feelers. By then most LBS's are done and don't want to expose themselves to that level of harm again. So at the end of the day, most LBS's are the ones that eventually block recon attempts. Simply put, WAS's just take too much time to get their s**t together and the LBS has well and truly moved on by the time they do.
Its not pursuing if I just ask wtf she wants, right?
Yeah any R talk is pressure and pursuit no matter how well-intentioned. And 99/100 times you're just going to hear "I don't know what I want" in response. Then what? Ask again tomorrow? On and on it goes. So you don't ask.
It's a tough situation to be sure. We all wish we could look into the future and see what the "right" path to take is. But we don't get that luxury, so we have to make some hard choices. In-house separation rarely leads to recon. But out-of-house separation also rarely leads to recon. Divorce rarely leads to recon. What does lead to recon more often than any of these? Time. Most of us just don't give it enough time, after a few months we get tired of waiting and push for S or D ourselves. More often than not here is what happens- the LBS gets tired of waiting. They push for S or D. They eventually detach and move on. THEN the WAS starts getting interested again and putting out feelers. By then most LBS's are done and don't want to expose themselves to that level of harm again. So at the end of the day, most LBS's are the ones that eventually block recon attempts. Simply put, WAS's just take too much time to get their s**t together and the LBS has well and truly moved on by the time they do.
This is sage advice, Core. Speaking as someone who's been separated for a month now, every day that wanes on in separation, especially if you get conflicting messages/feelings from your WAS, makes things harder and harder. I haven't even had the D bomb yet -- my WAH is on the "I don't want a divorce, but I haven't made up my mind if it will come to that" track right now. But he's definitely back to negative to no contact, despite telling someone two weeks ago that he did not want us to end, and I think the drops really shred patience. You have to dig deep to find that patience, and ultimately decide if you even want to hold fast while this mess of process goes on.
I'm sorry you are going through this.
Wayfarer, the only other option I see would be me continuing to be used as a doormat for her needs. The gift of time has been great, I just dont see it working when we see each other daily. Im 90 percent sure she still wants that relationship with OM. She had since October to make a change, or at least January when they truly cut off communications. This is all definitely an expectation of mine but a normal one isnt it? W could potentially go years with me in this spot.
Affairs on average take 6-12 months to play out and that's completely unimpeded. No roadblocks, nothing adding to the desire and fantasy. Which is how years and years get tacked on more often than not. Once it's over it takes something like several week up to 3 months for them to get over the affair completely so they can truly re-invest in the marriage IF that's what the betrayer chooses to do. As I see it Steve85s goal of giving it one year. One year of really trying made sense to me personally. If that's not for you then so be it. you were justified to leave at the onset of the affair. And any time since. But other than being in constant over drive about saving this marriage on your terms have you looked at real numbers on these things and made a plan for yourself, your marriage and your family? When I say you seem like you're in crisis, it's because you do. Every thing is agonizing. If you look around here most people who decided to D are incredibly calm in doing so. Like ok this is the next inevitable step. We've been on a similar time line from the beginning here, so I'm struggling to get why you are still thinking there's an instant gratification route here. Because neither route is.
With kids seeing this as a normal marriage and me losing more alimony and time to build another relationship if I can ever trust again after this. I havent seen anything positive, only negative from her. I get why, she wanted out and she felt unsafe, unattracted or both because of my issues. What is your true take on what I do here? Wait it out indefinitely? If I did give more time, we'd still have a 1 to 2 year divorce process to go through. I still have time if I filed today. I think the big difference is W knows Im willing to walk away. Wayfarer, I'm throwing the card out for the kids, not me. I'm hoping it changes her mind. That is true. What I truly want is the kids to see a normal marriage or no marriage. D4 is already copying W and is saying she "isnt supposed to spend time or sit with daddy". Its not what mommys do.
You do what's best for you. You were more than justified to walk away from that MR the second you found out she was cheating. But if any percentage of this is a wake up call for her, which you've admitted it is, I can tell you right now she isn't going to bite.
My attorney divorced when her kid was one and says Ill get 50/50.
Your attorney can't promise you that. At all. If she is you need new counsel. This isn't the world 6 months ago. Or a year ago. You have no idea what your working situations are going to look like by the time this is all over. Without being able to predict income and forecast stability or the availability of child care options. There's no telling what your custody arrangement, or alimony, or anything would look like. Your counsel should be giving you best case scenario, worst case scenario, and working with you for mutual goals. Not making empty promises.
W will need a job. She actually just started one part time and Ive been 60 percent furloughed. The timing [censored].
It does. Which is my whole point. You have the oportunity to slow down and really find yourself and your goals and think about your future on both a path of reconciliation and divorce. Are your courts even processing divorces right now? What's the forecast on first hearings?
It is your choice. It has always been your choice. It will be your choice in the end. You need to accept that.
Please show me another way if there is one. I cant see how accommodating this person will fix my sitch. She has made zero progress to fix her relationships with her family members she removed from her life and she claims to care about them. She resents me and admits that. Say whatever you want here, I ask for 180s and Ive already had a lifetime of being offended.
I gave you my other option. Several times. Taking a step out of the drama isn't accommodation. Worrying about what relationships your wife has or hasn't fixed isn't DBing. It's definitely not detaching. You resent her too. I resent my H. My H resents me. My kids resent both of us. My bff resent her H. Her H resent her. My grandmother resents my grandfather my grandfather resents my grandmother. It's the nature of long term relationships. This is that impossible expectations thing I keep bringing up. You can't escape resentment in long lasting relationships of any kind. But you can work through them in a healthy manner vs something toxic or destructive.
I think you need to dig into that life time of being offended and maybe read through your postings on here. I think there's some introspection to be had there. Give it a try. Working on you. Just this once. It's not like you can get a court date tomorrow. Or like she can sign a new lease.
I see why AS is the validation king. You're right, me bringing up the topic and asking for an answer next day is pressure. I see how time helps and I also see it as an enemy. I was ready and willing to take her back for several months, despite what she did and my ego saying no. After months of abuse then months of inaction, I lost any feelings for her. Time may heal her but it pulled me away.
On patience....patience hurts the kids and I both if we D in the end. W is also asking to put money in to the house. Thats such a waste if we sell the place. I truly think she's ok living like this until my youngest is in kindergarten. I cant, and dont want to. I've heard of long limbos but that is insane. If we were friends or friends with benefits maybe I'd have more patience.
AS as always I appreciate the insight. I see how I could've handled the mbr situation better.
Beth, Im sorry you are going through this as well. Womens sitches seem to be much more successful here, not always but a higher chance. Ive never heard the saying Hell hath no fury like a man scorned....just the opposite. I wish you the best and will check out your sitch.
I used my resource and see my W hasnt contacted anyone today. Im shocked that shes contacted no one for support.
Ive no idea what to expect when/if we do talk in the morning. I know she wants D, but will she say it or avoid. I guess either way, I need to proceed with starting the process as I stated. Shes probably relieved to not have to do the work.
So W and I had the chat. She chose mediation which we all probably expected. She said she wanted time to think about things but since I gave an ultimatum, she chose mediation. In the end, she still says she wants time which we all knew was going to happen. I kind of have to follow up on my word and schedule it. She told me she has been working on herself and things all this time. I dont see it but she seemed honest in this. It turned in to a 40 minute relationship chat.
She apologized for what she did but wasnt remorseful. Thinks divorcing is the hard route but its the one she wants to take. The convo actually pulled me a little closer to her though I'm sure it wasnt the same for her. She wants the family but isn't willing to work on it. Cant see herself being intimate again.
She listed out gripes with me, that I cant tell if she's expecting me to work on them or what. One is what Wayfarer already mentioned....expectations. Either way, she says something in her was destroyed and doesnt see how it can be fixed. I guess from here I start mediation then or do I give her time? If I give time, it looks like I am pursuing.
C,
I am really sorry you are going through this right now.
Ultimately you can drag your feet with it but if that’s the case why did you just wait? She’s not going to change her mind right now. We as humans are controlled by are thoughts. If she thinks she can never be intimate with you again. Well guess what? That’s how she will feel.
It’s crazy how the human brain works. She told you she can’t see herself being intimate with you again. That your family isn’t worth working for and listed all your flaws and you indicated it made you feel closer.
So much of this is people not understanding the human brain, emotions, hormones and what it takes to make a successful relationship.
It’s very sad.
Chin up Core it will get better.
You felt closer because she was being open and honest with you even if it stung. You've grown enough to sit in the pain of something like that and not react, just receive. Being that open to her truth built a moment of emotional intimacy. She let you in. And she hasn't in a long time. You let her in. That's why you you felt closer. Emotional intimacy. That moment. The calm, ok that's how you feel, this is how I feel, I guess this is how we are going forward. That calm is the calm I've been pushing you towards this whole time. Try to maintain that version of yourself. Non-reactionary. Open. Accepting. You'll need that guy going forward.
With kids seeing this as a normal marriage and me losing more alimony and time to build another relationship if I can ever trust again after this. I havent seen anything positive, only negative from her. I get why, she wanted out and she felt unsafe, unattracted or both because of my issues. What is your true take on what I do here? Wait it out indefinitely? If I did give more time, we'd still have a 1 to 2 year divorce process to go through. I still have time if I filed today. I think the big difference is W knows Im willing to walk away. Wayfarer, I'm throwing the card out for the kids, not me. I'm hoping it changes her mind. That is true. What I truly want is the kids to see a normal marriage or no marriage. D4 is already copying W and is saying she "isnt supposed to spend time or sit with daddy". Its not what mommys do.
Just want to chime in about the kids. I used to think about this as well with my kids (sometimes still do) - is this the type of father that they will model after in the future? Do they know that this is not "normal"? How is H showing them what responsibility is? ...etc. But I've come to realize that there is no normal. Kids will see enough "normal" from stories and TV to have a certain expectation of what a parental figure is supposed to be like. And over their life time they will go through their own experiences and tweak it themselves to have their own definition. One strong/stable parent is more than enough. In the grand scheme of things, this limbo is really not that long. Not that I am advocating for you to keep waiting, I just think that in most cases, more patience also benefits the LBS.
Ultimately you can drag your feet with it but if that’s the case why did you just wait? She’s not going to change her mind right now. We as humans are controlled by are thoughts. If she thinks she can never be intimate with you again. Well guess what? That’s how she will feel.
It’s crazy how the human brain works. She told you she can’t see herself being intimate with you again. That your family isn’t worth working for and listed all your flaws and you indicated it made you feel closer.
So much of this is people not understanding the human brain, emotions, hormones and what it takes to make a successful relationship.
It’s very sad.
Chin up Core it will get better.
Thank you LH. Its nice having your perspective. It feels good to at least be taking a step towards an outcome here, even if its not the one I wanted for the kids or myself.
You felt closer because she was being open and honest with you even if it stung. You've grown enough to sit in the pain of something like that and not react, just receive. Being that open to her truth built a moment of emotional intimacy. She let you in. And she hasn't in a long time. You let her in. That's why you you felt closer. Emotional intimacy. That moment. The calm, ok that's how you feel, this is how I feel, I guess this is how we are going forward. That calm is the calm I've been pushing you towards this whole time. Try to maintain that version of yourself. Non-reactionary. Open. Accepting. You'll need that guy going forward.
Woah, this post from you surprised me. I did look back through my posts and I see what you mean. I'm almost always in turmoil when I'm posting. I cant believe some of you could determine what I was communicating based on how scattered some comments were. The person in my last post is who I am most of the time. The person from most of my posts is who I was for a large amount of the time post kid, sleep loss and losing my way. Your post makes sense, totally shows how I got drawn in during the chat. It was our first deep chat in months.
Just want to chime in about the kids. I used to think about this as well with my kids (sometimes still do) - is this the type of father that they will model after in the future? Do they know that this is not "normal"? How is H showing them what responsibility is? ...etc. But I've come to realize that there is no normal. Kids will see enough "normal" from stories and TV to have a certain expectation of what a parental figure is supposed to be like. And over their life time they will go through their own experiences and tweak it themselves to have their own definition. One strong/stable parent is more than enough. In the grand scheme of things, this limbo is really not that long. Not that I am advocating for you to keep waiting, I just think that in most cases, more patience also benefits the LBS.
I hope thats the case and thanks for chiming in Wooba! I find my W acts alot like her mother in her parents relationship and I act like my dad. Thats what scared me as far as my kids learning from my W. Plus D4 is at the age of copying everything mommy does. Mostly good and with some bad for her future relationships.
I went ahead and scheduled the mediation. I wish it was her doing the leg work but its my choice to end it sooner than later. Her words during our chat do show me that shes given things some thought. No large effort however some time was spent. She tried to dump off guilt from her EA and I told her Im not talking about that now. Not sure why, I think it was her lack of remorse or that I'm not ready to forgive.
I feel that life is about family. Family first. That's what life is for and what its about. Its a shame that Ws focus moved away from that to self sustainability. Partly I am responsible. Moving to mediation makes my look conflicted or like a liar. Im doing it to preserve my kids future. We all say put the kids first here. Infinite limbo is not healthy for them, nor are bad examples. Im financially smart and I'll recover from this to ensure more sound teenage and later years for them.
Wife, I'm sorry its come to this. We said we'd never hurt each other, never leave each other. We said we would grow a family and put our marriage first for the kids. How sadly we were mistaken. Those with the highest aspirations can fall the furthest. I dont forgive, condone or believe what you did was ok, but I understand why you thought it was the path you needed at the time. What you've done to the family is not ok. I hope you can find yourself.
She told me she has been working on herself and things all this time. I dont see it but she seemed honest in this. It turned in to a 40 minute relationship chat.
Is she in IC? That would be a good step towards that end. Hopefully she's not just referring to some inner dialog that's taking place because that's not really progress.
She apologized for what she did but wasnt remorseful.
Very typical WAS mindset.
She listed out gripes with me, that I cant tell if she's expecting me to work on them or what.
Probably not, usually it's just their way of explaining/ justifying why they want out of the M. If you work on those things she'll say it's "too little too late". Some of it may fall under rewriting history, but if she told you some things that rang true then work on those things. Not for her, but for you, and for the future lady in your life. Your W may not grow from this but you can and should.
I guess from here I start mediation then or do I give her time? If I give time, it looks like I am pursuing.
This choice should be 100% based on what YOU want, not her. Do you want to be done with the M, or do you want to give it some time? She's unlikely to change for a year or more, so we're talking about a lot of time, not a little. If you're not sure then take some time to think it over. I usually suggest that if you have any doubts then reevaluate in a month. When you get to the point where you have no doubts for a month or more, then you're ready.
Core -
Sorry you're going through this. It's not an easy situation to be in.
The key component to all of this is time. A lot of LBS don't understand this at the beginning because they are emotional and panicking and in severe distress over the loss of the R. I know - I was in the same boat you were in more than a year and a half ago.
I am still separated in house. It has been 14 months.
Here are a few pieces of advice I can give you that I've learned throughout this experience:
- WAS are in crisis. This is about them, not you. So many newbie LBS don't understand this. Expecting a WAS to know what they want out of an R or if they want a D when they don't know what they are doing with their own life is too much of an ask. Avoid ALL R talks for the immediate future - all it does is confuse you, cause more emotional pain, and damage whatever rapport you 2 have left.
- This takes TIME. Many LBS struggle with this aspect. It will not be days or weeks, it will be months or years for a WAS to change their mind - IF they do. Figure out if you can wait that long.
- Figure out what you want and then stick to it. Do you want mediation and D? Do you want to see if it will work out? Will you be able to forgive W if she wants to come back at some point in the far far future? Do you want a chance at keeping your family together? The answers to these questions dictate how you move forward.
- Figure out a way to manage your anxiety. Meditation helped me. Reading mindfulness books helped me. Remembering to live in the moment helped me. Starting IC helped me.
Hang in there, man. These are difficult times - work on improving your mental fortitude and strength. You CAN do this
Take care and stay strong
Its all well and good to give it some time unless you are in an emotionally abusive situation, or you are facing an alimony threshold. Sounds to me that both of these apply to you. I think you are on the right track and suggest you continue to push forward at least until you are absolutely sure the alimony clock stops.
And if you are fairly confident that this will end up in divorce, I highly recommend that you push through as quickly as possible. Make this your mission. Because protracted limbo and a drawn out divorce with a WW always end up much, much worse for the BH.
The time component I think is the hardest part for me. I only lose. My kids lose. Heck, we all do by a WW or WAW's inaction.
I ended up scheduling mediation. Its a long session and I'm prepared. If we agree on things, this'll go fast.
After I told W the session date, she acted normal for awhile. No concerns at all. I later asked her to be the one to tell D4 whats happening and she teared up, started a long relationship chat. She finally mentioned how she feels. She brought up more things I did which I validated. I did say some awful things over the years now that I hear it out loud. I know I did it out of anger, anxiety and frustration. Mostly over lack of intimacy or from her disrespect, judgements and stonewalling. That doesnt excuse my words however. For example I told her before marriage that we were seeming incompatible and I wanted more time. Granted it looks like I was right...
She may be right to leave. She cant get over her feelings. She hasnt tried anyone professional or a book, though it sounds like there has been self reflection. I mentioned how I felt about some things. In the end, she wants time and said this chat is exactly what she wants. "If we could talk like this, Id be happy". She mentioned several times that she liked how we were communicating. It drew me in for a bit as well.
Problem is, those are just words. I see no actions. She continues caretaker activities like bringing me food while working on a project but thats not wifely, its motherly. She seems happy now. Whether it's because we are ending, she liked the chat, released guilt or thinks I'll cancel mediation, I dont know. I still dont see enough reason to cancel mediation.
She mentioned as a WW would that she doesnt know what she wants. Then listed out a want. She wants the thrill of a romantic relationship. Things she never seemed to care about with me, she thought it was corny. I think she's talking about OM without knowing it.
Im really deeply and profoundly sad. Just a few days left before we seal the deal. She scheduled an appointment for the dog before our mediation session which may throw it off and make me move it. I dont know if this was purposeful. I want an f***ing family unit. So does she. Its not that hard or expensive to talk to a counselor, I just dont get it. Dont need to though, it is what it is. I dont have the patience to be used while she possibly takes ages to think about things.
Core -
Just a few words here. So you know, mediation, D, papers signed and all the rest will not be the end of your suffering and your spinning. It will still be there afterwards. Read some of the vets' older posts from years ago. You'll see what I am talking about.
It sounds to me like you're hoping this action will terminate all your pain.
It won't. You'll still have to process all the pain, you simply cannot skip that step. There is no shortcut, there is no quick fix. You MUST go through it - like all the rest of us.
So - knowing that, knowing everything will be exactly the same emotionally, D or not, knowing how conflicted you are and how angry you are and sad that you are, knowing how badly you want to try to make this work, or at least be given the opportunity to try, I have a question for you.
What is the rush?
I,
I totally agree with what you’re saying and D will not stop the pain but if he is on an alimony deadline then I am in total agreement with his decision.
D or no D he can still reconcile. He needs to protect himself.
I,
I totally agree with what you’re saying and D will not stop the pain but if he is on an alimony deadline then I am in total agreement with his decision.
D or no D he can still reconcile. He needs to protect himself.
Ok I understand and yes, you are right - that is paramount. Has he made the final decision to D? From the post above he seemed very unsure what he wanted to do.
Core,
I agree with IW that your pain will not go away with D, and may get worse for awhile.
I also agree with LH that you need to protect yourself. I don't know the details about your alimony situation. One of the most DB things you can do is stand up for your parenting and financial rights. D is one way to do so. Maybe there are other means.
I think patience is always the best option as long as you are on roughly equal footing.
Thanks gentlemen. I'm not looking to end things to avoid the pain, stop the pain or to find happiness. Its to move to a better situation.
-My kids are not seeing a healthy marriage
-Im providing for someone who may or may not give a Sh** about me when I could instead have the resources for the kids and I
-The longer this sitch lasts, the more I lose financially
-Im not in a sitch like others where there is still some emotional, physical and or spiritual connection. We have none of that. What's the point then?
-I waited this out quite awhile already. In 4 to 5 months itll be a year.
W and I had another chat and I did something stupid that I regret right now, I let her talk me in to cancelling the session. She mentioned again how she wants time but didnt want to commit. She told me she found an IC and will begin counseling with him. Well, after I cancelled mediation, I see no action yet. Our chat was great and she seemed genuine but now I think I fell for her untruthful words again. Part of it was that I realized I wasn't yet ready for mediation as well. I want the action to end things to come from her, not me though itll likely be me.
My WW is and has continued to do nothing. I do expect some kind of action after this much time. Whether its fair or not to have that expectation, I think its not fair for the kids and I, and even her to be stuck in this dead marriage.
I read online how some people can never get over their first love, and whom seek it out the rest of their lives. W during the chats was basically telling me she wants someone with personality traits I know OM has or you know, in reality she is wanting him. Funny thing is she fell for me when I had different traits and specifically told me several times that the things she now wants are corny and stupid.
Our talks pulled me or maybe us both in for a short time but that has already passed for me. Im back to considering filing and just being done with this BS. Not to avoid the pain, but to move on.
C,
I agree she baited you. She knows about the alimony and probably wanted to see if you were still hooked. No way I would let her get that extra money. You can always recon later.
I'm not looking to end things to avoid the pain, stop the pain or to find happiness. Its to move to a better situation....Im back to considering filing and just being done with this BS. Not to avoid the pain, but to move on.
From the tone of your posts, I am not convinced you are emotionally ready to file.
However, you do need to protect yourself financially. Maybe this means filing for D (if that is the only option). Maybe this means a financial separation. IDK. Maybe consult a L (discreetly) about your options.
Once you are on relatively equal/stable footing with finances and the kids, by all means, stand as long as you want. Or don't. If you aren't on equal footing, you are not standing for your MR.
I want the action to end things to come from her, not me though itll likely be me.
You wouldn't be the first person here to put up with a lousy financial situation waiting for your WAS to initiate the action.
I'm back to fear over the situation here. Overall just journaling here though any feedback or 2x4s are appreciated.
My W stating she would go to IC gave me hope. What gave me fear is the counselor she has chosen. The counselor is at the same practice as mine and they work closely together. Neither being a marriage counselor. Why W would choose a connection to mine worries me and my counselor himself said that we need to be careful and that they would only take in my W if I agree after we all meet and thoroughly discuss the possibility. This makes me think the counselor sees a r3d flag.
I see many myself after our recent chats. BPD and NPD traits left and right. "You broke me", "youll NEVER change", "I dont know how I feel"', the guilt relieving apology, her taking action only when I try to leave. Its truly seems like a I hate you dont leave me state she is in.
I think I did break her. My anxiety got bad and I lost focus on her. If it is BPD, people with the illness usually are most healed at her age. If I can break her at her best, imagine when BPD worsens again in the 50s and beyond. Add in a lifetime of not being treated and well, I see no hope.
I think I have to end this for everyone. Marriages put a strain on BPDs and they can become better alone. A semi healed ex would be better for the kids than a broken fake marriage. Im not strong enough yet to do this for them however. Ive my own issues and I dont want to possibly make the wrong call. Me or my IC cant diagnose W, unless shes in counseling. It may be something else. When I talked to my counselor a few days ago, they told me they never seen a person take so long to decide on the state of their marriage. My counselor is prob about 55 so theyve had experience.
Normally as a spouse gets better, the other spouse follows. Well my W has done nothing. I checked our router usage, she's looked up no counselors or self help whatsoever. None, even after we had mediation scheduled.
So many lies, do I believe anything? Did she ever love me? Did she manipulate me and pretend all was ok to have our 2nd child?
W says I was never there for her at the tough times. She was rarely there for mine...seems like projecting. W says I look down on people and think Im better...myself, counselor and best friend call me humble and sometimes insecure...seems like projecting.
My outlook here is sh$t and sh$t. I can end my family, dreams and create trauma which could cause D and S to become BPD themselves later in life or I can continue forward in a relationship where I may never truly be loved and always walk on eggshells or we go to counseling, fix this temporarily and just end up back here down the road. My W is right to end it I think. Ive never seen her self improve, not one book, seminar, nothing besides marriage counseling years ago which was her trying to change me.
What do I do? All the futures are horrifying. I can make the best of any outcome but I dont know which option is best for all. These kids are incredible and Ill take a proverbial bullet if need be, but which choice? I also reread all this and have to wonder if Im projecting. What if Ive fooled my own counselor and Im truly BPD or other cluster B.
outlook here is sh$t and sh$t. I can end my family, dreams and create trauma which could cause D and S to become BPD themselves later in life or I can continue forward in a relationship where I may never truly be loved and always walk on eggshells or we go to counseling, fix this temporarily and just end up back here down the road. My W is right to end it I think. Ive never seen her self improve, not one book, seminar, nothing besides marriage counseling years ago which was her trying to change me.
^^^^^^you are telling me these are the only 2 options and outcomes in your situation?
I’ll tell you this. My ex cheated on me and left me when our D was 6 months for his affair partner which he is married to now, 12 years later.
My daughter is a well-adjusted, loved, brilliant emotionally intelligent young lady.
She is a very happy kid with friends and a positive outlook.
I hve a feeling if I stayed in the marriage with a cheater who had no desire to change and treated me as I did and I took it, my daughter wouldn’t be as well adjusted as she is now. She would have suffered a lot of damage.
Think about that.
Ginger, did you get full custody or more than 50/50? I feel like that plus your Ds age helped. Not discounting all your work, growth and parenting of course which is likely the biggest factor in her positive development. My D4 loves Disney and families. She'll get hit by this. I think my son could be ok at this age, but my D4 absolutely loves family units. I feel like her reality would be shattered. I'd feel much more comfortable if she was younger.
On the flipside to your point, I could do everything possible on my end if we split, to give the kids a better life. Would 50 percent of the time be enough? And thats assuming I'm ok. We will lose our house, school district if we D. Education and quality of life will drop for all but mostly me being the breadwinning H.
This is so hard, I dont want to be the one to file however I think I have to.
At this point my W has not initiated 1 relationship chat, unless its after I tried to move on. No out of the blue comments or realizations unless I started a chat.
C,
You have to try to forgive yourself and understand you did the best that you could at the time. It's normal for your to be fearful of starting all over with two young kids. I went through the same thing but my kids were a little older. Like G said my kids are also doing great and my relationship couldn't be better with them. They just got their report cards and the lowest grade between the two was 81. Now does that sound like two kids whose lives were "destroyed" when I got divorced?
I'm not surprised she hasn't made any changes because A. she doesn't think there is anything wrong with her and B. quite feeling change is hard. For most people it is easier just to start over with someone else.
I got majority custody. He didn’t want anymore then his every other weekend and one night a week.
Yes, it was mostly my parenting. And her seeing how strong her mother is.
Of course they are going to be shattered at first. But life Is not a Disney movie. And as time goes on your kids will see that. In the long run they would see right through the facade you guys will be putting up. He cheating and cake eating, you miserable and unable to stand up for yourself out of fear.
That’s not so Disney movie like is it?
Parents who decide to stay together for their kids only works when they are committing to making the marriage better for themselves. They BOTH decide to work towards a healthy marriage for their kids sake.
Staying together the way you guys are right now is not what’s best for the kids. You’ll know when your wife wants to recommit to making your marriage work . And you might have to be divorced first for that. And stand on your own 2 feet and guide your kids through this.
It is not going to be easy at all. But I truly believe your ex is stringing your along for financial reasons. And that won’t end in a Disney fairytale
LH, you and Ginger both give me hope.
Is it clear from an outsider perspective that I'm holding on to nothing and should end this M? What does my sitch look like non objectively?
Are there any similar sitches that didnt go the D route and actually repaired? Hoosjims and Steve85s were kind of similar but their Ws seemed much different. I haven't found one success with a W that seemed to have no interest in changing after this much time?
Hey Core -
A word of caution to counter a bit what your IC has said, I've been in a state of limbo for 20 months. So sometimes it takes a very long while for a WAS to decide what they want.
I would recommend not judging your sit based on others - every one is different.
Take care
IW you know I respect the $hit out of you but C is on a timeframe where he will take a big financial hit if he doesn't D by a certain time.
Also, I have been here for 5 years and statistically speaking his chances of reconciliation during in-house separation are probably less the 5%.
Now if he Ds moves out and I think his chances of recon goes up 1,000%.
New Thread:
Still Indecisive