Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Gekko Charting My Course (Part 2) - 02/20/20 07:08 PM

New Thread.

Links to my prior threads:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2854975&page=1
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842291&#Post2842291
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2842292&page=11
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 02/20/20 07:48 PM
Well it's been 4 months and no response from W's L regarding the remaining settlement terms. I just instructed my L to file with the judge all the forms that summarize all my requests and he will serve them on W's L. Then we'll see what happens. My L says she is going to have to file papers too.

I am not going to mind-read as to why W is dragging her feet. But this has dragged on enough. I feel bad for my kids but I can do better than W and cannot envision a realistic scenario where I would ever take her back. I have felt this way for a long time. I don't miss her at all. I can't imagine living under the same roof with her. I'm not attracted to her because of her personality.

Life is really short. I feel great about where I'm at and where I'm going, i just want the D formalized so i can 100% move on. I also feel great about where I've been, even with the toxic W experience, believe it or not. Life overall has been really good, but it can and will be so much better. I'm just starting to realize how much the lingering D paperwork stuff is affecting me. I'm energized to finish what W started and give her what she wanted.

Wait, am I on the DB forum?! LOL, guess I'm not the poster child....but you know what? Moving on and meaning it can get some people the recon they seek.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 02/20/20 08:32 PM
Gekko, good on you for taking control of things! Who knows why she's dragging things out, my XW did as well even though she didn't want to recon. I guess they want to cling to the Plan B safety net as long as possible.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 02/20/20 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
guess I'm not the poster child...
You did perfect...You controlled your interactions...can't control hers.
Posted By: unchien Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 02/21/20 05:20 PM
Gekko ~ I always like seeing your updates. I consider you a DB success. You donít sound angry or resentful or like you see things through grey colored lenses. You have a very balanced approach.

Sometimes going through this process involves a reckoning that the MR was not that great and we were holding on to something that wasnít real, healthy or positive.
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 04/06/20 06:56 AM
Journaling:

Well quite a bit has happened in the world since I last checked in. I hope everyone here is healthy, which is by far the most important thing to have.

My D sitch remains stalled, now due to the courts being shut down temporarily. I'm looking forward to getting the process done. I hope we can get the system back up and running next month. My W has not filed some documents and don't get what the hold-up has been. I'm not going to speculate, it doesn't matter, I'm done.

This virus has certainly put a damper on my dating life! My thoughts are on the health of my family and everyone else as we battle this thing collectively. That's my focus right now. Hopefully we will get back to some semblance of normality before too much longer.

My R with my kids has been getting stronger and deeper the past few months. It's always been good, but it has gone up another level. It feels incredible. I'm very lucky because they are amazing kids.

I wish I had more time to chime on others' sitches. Even with the virus my work has remained very busy. I am wishing for strength for everyone here who is hurting. We can all improve ourselves, we all need to work at one thing or another, so do the work. It will feel great. The better you feel about you the more you will realize that you are deserving of a great R, to be treated well, with love and respect, and giving the same. Don't let complacency keep you in a state where you don't improve yourself, and don't let fear motivate you to pine for a spouse who is treating you poorly.

Your value is not determined by your spouse. It's not determined by anyone but you. When you know you are a good person, and a good catch, and are always on the road to improving, doing the work, you set your own high value. That leads to an inner strength that you will feel and so will those around you. High self-worth and inner strength are two things that will help through your sitch and onward into an amazing future, even if you can't see it now.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 05/02/20 11:57 AM
hi Gekko, I am newer to the DB forum but over the last couple of days I have been running some stuff on the cloud and using the time in between to read all your threads. Congratulations, what a healthy way to face the bitter tasting dish that life has served you.

I see many points where your sitch and mine are similar and others were I want to improve. Please allow me to share them and maybe you can give me some tips on the weak ones!

Common positive points!
> I am 100% about becoming a better me and taking the relationship with my two children to a new level, I do not care about dating. Seriously, I could have Emma Watson coming onto me and I would have to tell her I am in a moment of my life where I am all into my children and personal improvement.
> The worst of this is the feeling in your heart that D will affect your children for their entire life, it kills me to miss part of their childhood, to expose them to swapping homes and to avoid talking to them about how I want things fixed in a new better R
> I had to move from a very nice new house in Germany to a simple older one in Spain, I used the new house as a mean of connecting with S6, made him choose decorations for his room and others. I will most likely need to sell a new flat we bought in Germany last year and I have a lot of personal pressure to avoid financial issues with this matter
> Sports is a big part of DB and GAL, weights and cardio avoid many void moments when dark thoughts are likely to come haunt me
> I listen and re-listen to self improvement material and I try to have high quality conversations with close friends
> I dont want a D but I will have my boundaries. My L and I have a passive attitude towards W, let her take the lead in starting D but once it happens I lead custody and financial elements.
> I dont want a friendship with W. Just a couple of days ago she told me I am punishing her for not being a nice friend. My reply was, look I will be there if you or the kids need me, but I cannot be your friend, I want you in my life but I do not need you, please respect it.

Were I am not there, could use your help!
> When you mention jealousy-wise you being a 2 out of 10. I am still a 6, it still freaks me out and I don't know why. I have let go of her, I have accepted we are no longer a couple and I am trying to make me happy aside of anything she does.
> A strong target for my improvement is also to validate and listen better. I haven't had the chance to talk to many women due to covid but I want to practice that over and over again for my better future
> I still have not analysed so deeply as you have the flaws on my W. I do not want to focus on them and I have been feeling guilty 100%, just were she wanted me. She has always had very low self-esteem and it has been a problem for the health of our relationship
> I have lately exposed myself to more of the same contempt, criticism and blame from W, I seem to be unable to do as you and say "look I have enough self love to not listen to that, goodbye". What thoughts helped you get there?

Apologies for the long message, did not want to interrupt your thread but rather hear a bit from how you did it to get there! Thanks for reading the message and I send you strength father to father smile
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 05/24/20 06:07 AM
Gekko update:

I wish I could report some progress with the D but the court system is still shut down. I did sit down a few weeks ago and look over all the papers, just to refresh myself on things, and there are not really very many issues left to deal with. I am still thinking that I can get through this whole process without getting crushed with lawyer fees and still get pretty much what I want. Had some beers yesterday with a friend and we agreed that my D is about as uneventful as any either of us has ever known of, so I count myself lucky.

My interactions with W have been minimal with no school, no sports and no kids parties/events. I often don't see her during exchanging the kids and have not spoken with her on the phone for weeks. It's down to an occasional text about kid stuff. I like less contact with her, but can handle as much as necessary for the kids sake. My feelings have not wavered at all regarding a M with her - don't want it. She has some core behavior and personality traits that do not work for me.

Pack I will read your sitch and post over there soon. I will though give you some quick thoughts on your questions:

Jealousy - it's a natural thing. Even the dumper feels to a degree when they see the dumpee with someone else. As the dumpee, the more you want the R the higher you will be on the jealousy scale. I am probably not even at a 2 anymore, I would say I am close to Zero. That number can and will temporarily bounce when I see her with someone. How do you get your jealousy number down? GAL, improve yourself, realize your own worth, become more attractive and believe it and feel the attention, and analyze W's flaws and realize she may not be that great of catch and Mr. New Guy does not know what he is in for LOL.

Validation - you don't just practice on women and it's not just for women, it's to be done with everyone. Validate everyone. It can take awhile for it to become a habit, but it will if you practice. Once it become a habit, you will see how all your interactions and relationships will improve, and how you will be viewed as someone who "really gets it".

Analyze W's flaws - do it and do it deeply, and talk it out in IC. I'm not saying blame everything on her, I'm just saying understand her as totally as possible, including flaws. If you're going to recon, you need to understand how to deal with them. But you may not want to recon the more you evaluate her core issues. In any event, you will be better served. And it will help you in your next R, as you will be better at identifying traits that will not work for you.

Being disrespected and treated with contempt - never accept abuse. For me there is nothing I ever did to get to that mindset, I have always even as a kid refused to be dissed or condescended to etc. I just have strong boundaries that are always enforced. Enforcement is different depending on the situation. If your W is laying it on heavy, all you have to do is say something like "okay you are being really nasty and rude, and I'm just not going to listen to it. When you're ready to act calmly like an adult, we can talk about (whatever the issue is) then." And then just STFU. Hang up if you're on the phone or you can leave the room or the house if you have to. When you get better at it, you won't have to even leave the room - I only did if I was moving about the house doing tasks anyway - I just carried on doing whatever I wanted. Be prepared that W will probably not calm down and will rage on for a bit, but don't let that sway you to engage. Don't do it.

Hope all here are well, we will get back to a better sense of normalcy soon, hang in there and stay positive!!!
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/05/20 06:13 AM
Gekko Update:

So the courts are slowing re-opening and L says we'll have a hearing date sometime in the Fall. No response from W to my proposal that was sent to her about 7 months ago I think. She thinks very highly of herself as a tough negotiator. There is nothing to "win" at this point, but I suspect she will try to find a way to score some sort of point in her favor to make herself feel better. Always been that way. I have never had a problem using the word "no". But we'll get to a deal. Not many issues left on the table.

Kids are doing just amazing given the back and forth 2 house thing. I can't imagine how that feels. It's really the only thing that is a lingering bummer about my sitch. I am closer than ever with them. We are more connected than we have ever been and I am a better dad now than before. I am feeling just great about my R with them. I can't lie and say that I don't get an occasional pang of being down because of the 2 house thing, just feeling bad for the kids. They didn't ask for this sitch. I don't dwell on it, but the sadness of it does hit me sometimes. I don't deny it or downplay it, I want to feel it, it's real. But it's short-lived, I power back up and get on with life, which is overall a very beautiful thing.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/05/20 07:09 AM
Gek,

Honestly I donít think my kids even feel the two house thing anymore. It will be 2 years next month and our relationship couldnít be better. Weíve bonded big time during COVID and they are both doing really good in school. I still do get a pang every now and then when they are gone for 4 days. Iím not gonna lie I at times really enjoy my alone time. In the beginning when it was just the three of us it seemed like something or someone was missing. It doesnít anymore it feels normal. At times I miss the full family structure but itís been so long since times were good I donít even remember it anymore. Life is what you make of it and with all the crazy stuff going on in the world itís pretty good right now.
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/29/20 06:44 AM
Thanks LH. I also enjoy some alone time w/out the kids, and actually need it to get shyt done, get some time w/friends, workouts, hobbies, etc. By day 3 w/out them around I am wanting them back though.

I'm 10 months into physical separation and I have not had a shred of longing to be back with W. I guess that makes my sitch a lot easier than many of our friends here on this board. She's got a toxicity to her that is not good, and there's not indication she will ever work on herself, so that's that. I'm just not attracted to her. I also don't chase women. Any woman who does not have high interest in me will not get my attention. And I have found that there is always someone else out there - someone great. I have had serious dating relationships before W, and they obviously ended, but someone else who was great always seemed to eventually drop into my world. Funny how the universe tends to do that.

So summer is in the air, and despite the virus I think it's going to be a great one. 4th of July plans are shaping up and lots of GAL and good time activities happening.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 07/22/20 03:17 PM
hi Gekko!

Thanks for your help and posting over at my thread! I can relate to the bonding and improved R with your children, it is probably the best positive reinforcement I get right now, hope it feels the same to you. I remember reading at your thread you had filtered over some great material on self improvement that you played over and over. Can I ask you for some recommendations on this field?

Thanks a lot and stay strong! It means a lot that you posted on my thread!
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 10/08/20 12:45 AM
Just poking my head back in here after a 3 month hiatus. Work and Life got busier than ever and time flew right by.

Fingers crossed, all D paperwork is done and there is just one final settlement document to sign and get the judge to stamp and we are officially done. I believe its going to feel like i can fly when its totally final. The amount of paperwork is ridiculous and i don't see the need for most of it, especially if there is no dispute. What a crazy system.

I have developed an amazing routine over the past year since i have moved into my own house. I miss the kids when they are not here, but they are here 1/2 the time and when they are we have an incredible time. The nights I dont have them, i get all the household stuff done and get my social time in, so when they are here its all about them. They are both doing very well and they have long since settled into this house and love the neighborhood, which is full of kids. It could not be working out better.

I wish i had the time to read more threads and comment, maybe that will be my New Years Resolution...? Those who devote their free time to help others here should be commended, it is not easy to find the time.

Pack, I dont think i am supposed to link you to other outside sources, otherwise i would hit you with a list of names to youtube. if i am wrong about this, someone let me know please. There is no perfect self-help guru out there, but there are many people in different disciplines who you can take what works for you and leave the rest. i have spent 2 years going through a progressive journey of youtube videos to find people that make sense to me. Pack you can start as I did, just enter the topic you seek in youtube search and start watching. you will begin to find people that resonate with you.

Wishing everyone well, stay safe. Don't forget that you are in charge of your life, your happiness and your emotions. It's all up to you.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 10/08/20 05:13 PM


That all sounds great. Thanks for the update.



Your kids are the age mine were when I got divorced. All three of mine are now out of the house and in college. Time fly's by. Enjoy every moment with them.

You would definitely be a help to others as they show up here. My Job responsibilities have also increased, so I am not on as much.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 10/08/20 05:17 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
I have developed an amazing routine over the past year since i have moved into my own house.


If you have time and are willing to share, I believe that many newbies could benefit by reading the specific details of your routine.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 10/09/20 12:58 AM
Geeko,

Originally Posted by Gekko
I have developed an amazing routine over the past year since i have moved into my own house. I miss the kids when they are not here, but they are here 1/2 the time and when they are we have an incredible time. The nights I dont have them, i get all the household stuff done and get my social time in, so when they are here its all about them. They are both doing very well and they have long since settled into this house and love the neighborhood, which is full of kids. It could not be working out better.

I'm working on developing my new routine as well. I try to do the laundry (clothes, towels, linens), grocery shopping, cleaning...etc done when the kids are not here to keep me busy and as you said make sure when they are here I can focus my attention on them completely. It helps I'm working remotely now due to COVID and can get things done around the house during the day. I'm also flexing out of work many mornings and afternoons so I can see my son before/after school even on days "I don't have him". I try to socialize when I don't have the kids as well but even though I have a big group of friends many are now coupled up and busy with their families (as I was before BD) so though I reach out I don't always have plans.

Anything you can share about your routine or tips you may have would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change
If you have time and are willing to share, I believe that many newbies could benefit by reading the specific details of your routine.

^What Ready2Change said!
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 01/28/21 01:45 AM
Hello All and Happy New Year!

My D is oh so close to being finalized, I am just waiting on W's lawyer to send over some paperwork. If it looks acceptable, it will go to the judge and that will be all she wrote! Just as a brief recap, I have 50/50 custody, zero child support or alimony, and we are both keeping our own bank accounts and retirement accounts. My W's parents helped her buy me out of the house and I got a nice chunk of money that will be a downpayment on my next purchase. I'm currently renting a house in the same town in a neighborhood that is zoned for my kids' school and they have friends in the 'hood which is amazing. It is also a very social neighborhood with parents (even with Covid ) so it's alot of fun.

Relations with the STBX are all business and 95% via text. There have been a few blips of drama due to her hotheaded nature, and I simply will not interact with her at those times, same as when we were together. "We'll have to talk about that later." Then silence. I have always believed that one of the most powerful tools is to refuse to engage with a person who is emotional, agitated and spinning. Even waiting just 1/2 hour to deal with the issue is massively beneficial to permit the hothead to cool off. It also allows you to avoid getting sucked into their whirling tornado. The truest manifestation of strength is control over one's emotions.

As for my routine, like BL42 it involves handling virtually all domestic tasks while the kids are at W's - laundry, cleaning, shopping, etc etc, including cooking - I cook multiple complete meals the day before i get the kids so i am not even bogged down with that when they are here. I have found that I need 2 nights to get everything done. It's a multi-tasking scenario and i will often listen to podcasts while i'm doing tasks, or have the music going. I enjoy those nights. So i then have either 1 or 2 nights free every week depending on the schedule. I make use of almost every free evening by being social in some way.

I tend to work longer days when I don't have the kids so I can call it quits a little early when I do have them. We have a different fun project that we work on every week so they have that to look forward to when they arrive. We have family game sessions, movie nights, family band sessions and a bunch of other routines. Outside of that, I have a four day a week workout routine and have specific chunks of time set aside to work on photo projects, researching purchases, reviewing investments, speaking with family, etc etc. There is alot to pack in but there is time. I think it was Bruce Lee that said people who value life do not waste time, because time is what life is made of.

I have had some ideas for posts that I want to execute but that will be for another day. I have also read up on many sitches here recently but not commented, but I hope to do so soon. To be continued.....stay well all.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 01/28/21 01:39 PM
AWESOME UPDATE GEKKO!! WTG! This is awesome.

So glad to see you doing well, moving forward happy and healthy, and dealing perfectly with your STBX. And killing it as a father too. I see nothing but goodness above and congratulate you on the progress. Such a success story. (Proving that not all success stories end with saving the MR.)

Thanks for the update, look forward to your posts to others.
Posted By: unchien Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 01/28/21 04:07 PM
Gekko ~ Thanks for checking in, I always enjoy your updates!
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 01/28/21 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
I have had some ideas for posts that I want to execute but that will be for another day. I have also read up on many sitches here recently but not commented, but I hope to do so soon.
I look forward to reading your insight.

Anyone currently dealing with crazy should read GEKKO's threads. He is a wise DBer from the start.
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/24/21 05:41 AM
Hi All,

It's been quite awhile since I've checked in here, just far too busy between work, kids and various GAL activities. Haven't read anyone else's sitch in forever but still want to try and give something back to the boards in the future. I'm like a broken record on that, I know. One of these days.

So my D is FINAL. As in the judge approved the papers and we are officially done. As much as you can be when you still have two young kids together anyway. A couple of my buddies wanted to go out for a big steak dinner to celebrate, but truth be told getting the papers finalized was very anti-climatic for me, as the MR was dead and buried for me pretty quickly after BD. So no celebration dinner per se, though we are going to get some steaks soon just because. To celebrate life in general and friendship.

I see my ex pretty frequently due to kids activities and it's fine. It's easy in part because I don't want her back and would not take her back in the unlikely event she asked to give it another shot. She can feel that I have zero interest in her and zero time for her other than to get straight to the point of kid logistics. In social settings involving other parents it's all good and many people have commented how great it is that we can get along and be at the same events in the same group of people and it's cool.

I started dating but nothing remotely serious. In my prior experience as a bachelor, I have always just lived my life and done my thing and dated around for fun, and eventually an amazing women just seems to fall in my lap. I am not seeking, I am just living, and letting life unfold. Summer is underway and it is going to be a really great one.

In doing the occasional retrospectives on my MR, I have pretty clearly identified my mistakes and owned them. As for my exes overly critical and harsh commentary toward me, among other issues, I could have and some say should have BD'd her years ago due to her BS, but I don't really regret not doing so. I got several extra years of full time with the kids under one roof, which was fantastic. I have to admit that I might feel a little more swagger now if I had just BD'd her and said enough, you're out, but it's not really grinding on me or bothering me that I didn't.

Listen, I saw evidence of my exes personality issues when we were dating and called her out at the first instant i saw a potential problem. She clearly understood me and appeared to course-correct. I thought we had an understanding but her core nature never did change and the harshness resurfaced after kids. But I take responsibility because I married her and did not have to. I could have been more skeptical that she had changed in her core being. I feel good about looking at myself and accepting responsibility for making the decision to marry her despite what i had seen in her.

My reaction to her critical harshness was sometimes perfect and sometimes not, and I'm fine with all of it. When I wasn't perfect it's because I'm human and also because I was grasping for alternative approaches to just get her to effing stop when the right responses weren't getting results. Ultimately, I now believe that the best response was probably to have just BD'd her when my appropriate reactions had no effect, instead of some of the other stuff i did. Oh well. Lessons learned. But look i think it is important to say that I was and am not a victim. I felt for awhile that i had somewhat slipped into that mentality but that feeling is mostly gone. It helps to say it out loud. I am not a victim.

Anyway I've rambled on for too long. I encourage everyone to stay positive, GAL and don't let your sitch drag you down. Don't allow your identity to be defined by your WW or WAW. Take control of you life, all of it, grab it with both hands. Unless you believe in reincarnation, this is it so make the most of it. Don't be afraid of being alone for awhile, or of new experiences and R's. Don't let fear dictate your decisions. Put a smile on your face and watch how much better it will make you feel, it really works.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/24/21 11:34 AM
Good update. I think the biggest learning as you head into dating again is to NOT ignore red flags during dating. Most of us that have been through a BD (or 2) can look back and see where before and shortly after marriage, there were red flags that we chose to ignore. You now have a chance to go into the next R with your eyes wide open.

Beauty, being fun, and all of that goes with it means nothing if the person has severe character flaws. We guys I think are worse at recognizing red flags because we are so visual. "She is gorgeous, sexy, in good shape!" When we look shallowly at a potential mate we shouldn't be surprised when that is exactly what we end up with: a mate with no depth.

So Gekko I love that you admit to overlooking the red flags with your EX, it sets you up to not make that mistake again!
Posted By: LH19 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/24/21 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
Hi All,

[quote=Gekko] It's been quite awhile since I've checked in here, just far too busy between work, kids and various GAL activities. Haven't read anyone else's sitch in forever but still want to try and give something back to the boards in the future. I'm like a broken record on that, I know. One of these days.

Gek it would be great to have a really go DBer on here giving advice.

Originally Posted by Gekko
So my D is FINAL. As in the judge approved the papers and we are officially done. As much as you can be when you still have two young kids together anyway. A couple of my buddies wanted to go out for a big steak dinner to celebrate, but truth be told getting the papers finalized was very anti-climatic for me, as the MR was dead and buried for me pretty quickly after BD. So no celebration dinner per se, though we are going to get some steaks soon just because. To celebrate life in general and friendship.

I think divorce parties are absolutely disgusting. Not sure what sick fuch came up with it.

Originally Posted by Gekko
I see my ex pretty frequently due to kids activities and it's fine. It's easy in part because I don't want her back and would not take her back in the unlikely event she asked to give it another shot. She can feel that I have zero interest in her and zero time for her other than to get straight to the point of kid logistics. In social settings involving other parents it's all good and many people have commented how great it is that we can get along and be at the same events in the same group of people and it's cool.

Just so you know this may change over time. I was the same after my D but circumstances changed that dynamic.

Originally Posted by Gekko
I started dating but nothing remotely serious. In my prior experience as a bachelor, I have always just lived my life and done my thing and dated around for fun, and eventually an amazing women just seems to fall in my lap. I am not seeking, I am just living, and letting life unfold. Summer is underway and it is going to be a really great one.

I have been dating roughly 2 years with a couple mini exclusive relationships. I am sure an amazing woman will again fall into my lap.

Originally Posted by Gekko
In doing the occasional retrospectives on my MR, I have pretty clearly identified my mistakes and owned them. As for my exes overly critical and harsh commentary toward me, among other issues, I could have and some say should have BD'd her years ago due to her BS, but I don't really regret not doing so. I got several extra years of full time with the kids under one roof, which was fantastic. I have to admit that I might feel a little more swagger now if I had just BD'd her and said enough, you're out, but it's not really grinding on me or bothering me that I didn't.

I could say the exact same thing except for instead of critical harsh words she was texting other dudes.

Originally Posted by Gekko
I encourage everyone to stay positive, GAL and don't let your sitch drag you down. Don't allow your identity to be defined by your WW or WAW. Take control of you life, all of it, grab it with both hands. Unless you believe in reincarnation, this is it so make the most of it. Don't be afraid of being alone for awhile, or of new experiences and R's. Don't let fear dictate your decisions. Put a smile on your face and watch how much better it will make you feel, it really works.

Agree 100% Gek!

Originally Posted by STEVELW
Beauty, being fun, and all of that goes with it means nothing if the person has severe character flaws. We guys I think are worse at recognizing red flags because we are so visual. "She is gorgeous, sexy, in good shape!" When we look shallowly at a potential mate we shouldn't be surprised when that is exactly what we end up with: a mate with no depth.

Uuuuummm just so you know Steve, there are gorgeous, sexy and in good shape women who also have depth.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/24/21 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by LH19

Uuuuummm just so you know Steve, there are gorgeous, sexy and in good shape women who also have depth.



Never said there weren't.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/24/21 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
...just far too busy between work, kids and various GAL activities...but still want to try and give something back to the boards in the future.



Thanks for the update....Maybe one way to give back is to post about your GAL during COVID. Many posters struggle with GAL ideas.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 06/25/21 09:24 PM
Gekko,

Great update! I read through your entire sitch (2-3yrs) after seeing your latest post yesterday. Other than the MR result, what a great positive DB story. You seemed strong and collected from the very start - well done! I wish I was stronger from the start, but have over the months gotten much more into your mindset. A number of things in your sitch resonate with me from the focus on the kids, to the holding off on dating and not making it a priority. Glad to hear all is well.

Originally Posted by Gekko
Haven't read anyone else's sitch in forever but still want to try and give something back to the boards in the future. I'm like a broken record on that, I know. One of these days.

Originally Posted by LH19
Gek it would be great to have a really go DBer on here giving advice.

This would be fantastic. Please do make the time to share if you're able. Wish more people would pop back in and give updates/provide feedback. I'd certainly benefit, but even more so the folks right after BD.

Originally Posted by Gekko
So my D is FINAL. As in the judge approved the papers and we are officially done. As much as you can be when you still have two young kids together anyway. A couple of my buddies wanted to go out for a big steak dinner to celebrate, but truth be told getting the papers finalized was very anti-climatic for me, as the MR was dead and buried for me pretty quickly after BD. So no celebration dinner per se, though we are going to get some steaks soon just because. To celebrate life in general and friendship.

Originally Posted by LH19
I think divorce parties are absolutely disgusting. Not sure what sick fuch came up with it.

It must be a relief to finalize the process - I know it was for me. The waiting and back and forth is not fun. I think you're right not to celebrate - to me, it doesn't seem right to celebrate such a thing - but do like the idea of going out with the friends to celebrate life / the future. Great GAL.

Originally Posted by Gekko
I see my ex pretty frequently due to kids activities and it's fine. It's easy in part because I don't want her back and would not take her back in the unlikely event she asked to give it another shot. She can feel that I have zero interest in her and zero time for her other than to get straight to the point of kid logistics. In social settings involving other parents it's all good and many people have commented how great it is that we can get along and be at the same events in the same group of people and it's cool.

Originally Posted by LH19
Just so you know this may change over time. I was the same after my D but circumstances changed that dynamic.

I see my Ex-W many times a week do to the young kids and me caring for them on her weeks, and then the sporting events...etc. I personally wish it were fewer times we had to cross paths, but maybe my detachment will get there.
LH19 - Change how?

Originally Posted by Gekko
I started dating but nothing remotely serious. In my prior experience as a bachelor, I have always just lived my life and done my thing and dated around for fun, and eventually an amazing women just seems to fall in my lap. I am not seeking, I am just living, and letting life unfold. Summer is underway and it is going to be a really great one.

Any stories to share? LOL

Originally Posted by Gekko
In doing the occasional retrospectives on my MR, I have pretty clearly identified my mistakes and owned them. As for my exes overly critical and harsh commentary toward me, among other issues, I could have and some say should have BD'd her years ago due to her BS, but I don't really regret not doing so. I got several extra years of full time with the kids under one roof, which was fantastic. I have to admit that I might feel a little more swagger now if I had just BD'd her and said enough, you're out, but it's not really grinding on me or bothering me that I didn't.

Great perspective.

Originally Posted by Gekko
Listen, I saw evidence of my exes personality issues when we were dating and called her out at the first instant i saw a potential problem. She clearly understood me and appeared to course-correct. I thought we had an understanding but her core nature never did change and the harshness resurfaced after kids. But I take responsibility because I married her and did not have to. I could have been more skeptical that she had changed in her core being. I feel good about looking at myself and accepting responsibility for making the decision to marry her despite what i had seen in her.

Originally Posted by SteveLW
I think the biggest learning as you head into dating again is to NOT ignore red flags during dating. Most of us that have been through a BD (or 2) can look back and see where before and shortly after marriage, there were red flags that we chose to ignore. You now have a chance to go into the next R with your eyes wide open.

Beauty, being fun, and all of that goes with it means nothing if the person has severe character flaws. We guys I think are worse at recognizing red flags because we are so visual. "She is gorgeous, sexy, in good shape!" When we look shallowly at a potential mate we shouldn't be surprised when that is exactly what we end up with: a mate with no depth.

So Gekko I love that you admit to overlooking the red flags with your EX, it sets you up to not make that mistake again!

Same here. Looking back there were red flags I didn't pick up on, or give enough significance to. Key for all of us is to understand those flags better moving forward and not making the same mistake again.

Originally Posted by Gekko
I encourage everyone to stay positive, GAL and don't let your sitch drag you down. Don't allow your identity to be defined by your WW or WAW. Take control of you life, all of it, grab it with both hands. Unless you believe in reincarnation, this is it so make the most of it. Don't be afraid of being alone for awhile, or of new experiences and R's. Don't let fear dictate your decisions. Put a smile on your face and watch how much better it will make you feel, it really works.

^This!

Best of luck post-D!
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/19/21 07:20 PM
Following up on Steve's comments above about Red Flags ("RF") - this is a major major subject area and probably deserving of more analysis, discussion and brainpower than I can provide, but i did want to pop back on the board with a few thoughts and my own cautionary tale.

First off I say never let RF behavior go unaddressed. Raise the issue on the spot. If for some reason it's not a great time to discuss it on the spot, follow-up ASAP at the first opportunity. But always make it known that you have an issue at the time of the RF, even if it with a look and body language.

When I discuss RF behavior I try not to make it about right and wrong, I just make it clear that the RF behavior does not work for me and why. Calllllmmmmmly. It's not about pointing fingers. The question is whether we are a good match. For instance with my ex, I immediately raised the name-calling harshness as an issue the first time i experienced it. I said I had an issue with that type of communication in a R, had never been in a R with that level of harshness, and never would be. And I specifically said to her it was not about right or wrong, it was about what I know would not work for me and that we were just not a good match if that's how she was going to communicate.

She appeared to get the message. She's a smart girl with many great qualities. Of course she also reverted back to the harshness, and then some, after a wedding and a couple of kids. Which leads me to my next important point and my cautionary tale.

Raising a RF, talking it out, feeling as if the message was received, watching RF behavior disappear thus confirming she got the message - these are all great. Fantastic. It's the whole idea behind raising the issue. However, as everyone here knows there is no guarantee of future performances.....

So where I went wrong in my RF assessment is that I did not focus enough on what i call the True Nature of my ex. Yes she got my message and ended (temporarily as it turns out) the harsh BS. She was faced with the prospect of me ending the dating R so she changed. But what she changed was only the manifestation of her underlying issues - high-strung, high-anxiety, anger management, control issues, etc. So i suppose it should have been apparent that without digging much deeper and addressing those underlying problems, her harsh talk, snideness, sarcastic insulting commentary would manifest over time.

I saw that she could be this way. Her family and old friends all know her to be this way. They all had a good laugh whenever I checked her behavior as they were not used to seeing that. They were used to her raging and bullying to get her way. Doesn't work on me.

But I knew, deep down I knew her True Nature. So I made the decision to focus on her keeping her mouth in check as a sign that she knew it was a deal-breaker and would end the R. But her True Nature did not change. So in a sense you can say yes I did overlook the real RF.

I'm a cautionary tale to the extent that it appeared on the surface that the RF behavior was corrected, so all is well right? Sorry, nope. It's deeper than that and it requires much more thought and analysis than what I invested. You have to look at not only RF behavior, but what is behind it, get to the root of it, and only then can you fully evaluate what you are dealing with. You have to do the work up front.
Posted By: Traveler Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/19/21 07:56 PM
Interesting read, Gecko, as someone occasionally dating I appreciate the thoughts and advice. (:
Posted By: Michka Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/20/21 05:34 AM
Gekko this is really interesting because I too had red flags which I thought were addressed and resolved before marriage and then again during marriage... so I had a question for you.

How do you define or what is it you see as a red flag?

Also, given the dynamic nature of relationships and life in general do you think that RF are generally always present from the start or perhaps potentially manifest themselves along the way?
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/30/21 09:04 PM
To answer your question Michka, I feel that there are several general categories of Red Flags. The first being anything that would fall into a category of behavior that I suspect most everyone would agree to be either toxic or seriously worrying - such as alcohol or drug abuse, violent temper/anger management issues, major inability to manage finances, extremely poor decision making, lack of responsibility, not trusthworthy, very poor choice of friends, poor health habits, etc etc.

There is a separate category of Red Flags that are very specific to me, relating to my personal values, lifestyle, interests, desires, etc. If a woman exhibits behaviors or beliefs or desires that are not a good match for me, those would be Red Flags to me. Understanding that they would not necessarily be Red Flags to someone else. It's about matching up, and the behavior at issue is not toxic, it's just not a good match for what i want.

I think there is another category of Red Flags that I might refer to as Passive Red Flags or Background Red Flags, which refers to someone's life history and what they have been subjected to. Childhood abuse, lots of divorce throughout the family, toxic family or serious family issues, severe issues in prior MR or R, etc - these are things that would be Red Flags for me even though they are in the background and may not have yet appeared to have manifested behaviorally, at least not to me and not yet. The concern of course is that such serious background issues will eventually manifest in certain behavior that could be a real problem for a R.

I guess that's my general definition of the Red Flag categories as I currently see them.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/30/21 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
I think there is another category of Red Flags that I might refer to as Passive Red Flags or Background Red Flags, which refers to someone's life history and what they have been subjected to. Childhood abuse, lots of divorce throughout the family, toxic family or serious family issues, severe issues in prior MR or R, etc - these are things that would be Red Flags for me even though they are in the background and may not have yet appeared to have manifested behaviorally, at least not to me and not yet. The concern of course is that such serious background issues will eventually manifest in certain behavior that could be a real problem for a R.
It's now my opinion these "background red flags" are often grossly underestimated. Drug abuse and violent temper are more obvious, whereas the background can be more easily glossed over. I dismissed my ExW's family history - her parents' 3 marriages each, her mom's affair/D of her dad, and her cutting her dad out of her life for years because 1) she promised she didn't want to be her mom, and 2) I was in love. Looking back her family background and their history of this behavior should've been a much bigger red flag for me, and I firmly believe they manifested for her whether it was she hit the age of her mom when her mom did this or the stress of the young kids/infant. I spoke to my sister's friend about his very similar sitch - his then W even jumped out of the car at a stop sign on the way to MC - he told me "the biggest mistake you made was marrying someone whose parents had been divorced multiple times". I believe that's true, and now believe the "background red flags" should be taken much more seriously than most do.
Posted By: Michka Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 12:22 AM
Gekko and BL42..

Some food for thought, it clearly comes down to that nature vs nurture argument to a point,... I feel that I saw some RF's early on but was convinced they were dealt with as he was in IC, he had completely overhauled his life, friendships and work were fantastic. His parents have the marriage most people dream of and only his eldest brother had divorced and remarried. However, it appears that he has followed his brothers footsteps almost exactly. We only found out over time that he was actually in a EA ( she was o/seas so it couldnt have been PA) with his current wife while married to his first.

So my concern is now less about my H, and more about my kids. They will now be children of divorce... how would one mitigate or lessen the impact on their future relationships? I know its not such a stigma or issue these days but I do worry. Working in education I see the impacts on teenagers and its pretty clear when home life isnt doing well how that manifests in them.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 02:03 PM
Ok so I was going to quietly ignore this and move on but I can't.

I'll give you that if someone isn't on the same page as you on beliefs, values, future planning, that that is a red flag. However if some one sees the world a little differently. Has a different lifestyle or interests that's not a red flag. That's you being nitpicky. Ask CW what it's like trying to force dating when you have rigid check boxes. Humans aren't a check list and women aren't there to make sure you're fulfilled in every way. Partners are an accessory to a full life, not way to complete a version of yourself you'd like people to see. People are nuanced, and complicated, and flawed. I'll even give you some obvious not so obvious, obvious red flags like any one that calls themselves a nomad, says they dislike children, has no contact with their family, has been divorced more than once, flits from job to job etc. But this passive red flag/background red flag stuff is absolutely ridiculous and you guys sound like you're sitting on your supposed moral and family background superiority thrones deigning your presence and willingness to date on poor unfortunate souls like me should we pass your sniff test.

A person isn't their parents. A person isn't their past. And I'm sorry if your ex-spouses were but did you ever take the time to consider that maybe they just didn't put in the work to overcome that? Or that they never had the emotional maturity or introspection to recognize the unhealthy or full on toxic behavior of their parents? Are you guys psychologists? Or psychic? Do you really have the ability to predict possible behaviors based on a person's history? This big blanket generalization that a person is likely not a suitable mate because they could possible have some issues given their history is histrionic.

Maybe I'm projecting here a little bit, because I have a very messy family history and past, but honestly I don't think I'm taking this as personally as I could. Choosing out of the gate to build a bias on a person's history without a thorough assessment of who they are as a person is a really gross dating habit. Not a safety measure in dating. Like let's be real, as much as we work on ourselves and do what we can to be the people we want to be which in turn makes us desirable mates do you really truly think you would survive the same kind of scrutiny if it was reversed? Are you such a unicorn of a human being that there is no baggage or bad habits or FOO stuff or past relationship quirks that you aren't dragging along with you?

Dating in your mid to late 30s, 40s, and 50s is already hard. Pickings are already slim. People are already out there with huge chips on their shoulders and some serious damage and glaringly obvious red flags. Are you really in a position to filter the already dwindling options you have based on your assumptions that things could go wrong because your ex's were damaged and didn't put in the work? You do realize that makes you the red flag bearer? Is it possible maybe you need to do some work on how you perceive dating and relationships if this is a common practice? Maybe you aren't healed enough to date.

I'd also like to mention that when you saw red flags in the beginning of the relationship and you called them out you likely had the expectation of change. One of the biggest issues I see with LBHs on here is they don't come to the same realizations that LBWs have to face over and over and over again. Those realizations being, you can't fall in love with a person's potential if they show you who they are you need to meet them where they're at, and you can't change someone, they can only change themselves.

If your potential mate is cutting and cruel sometimes or let's say a big flirt, you lay your boundary and then what? They stop for a minute because they don't want to lose you and they revert. That's the typical response. Sometime just sometimes you lay your boundary and they take an assessment of what's there and they realize they would rather stop something toxic than lose you. But even then it doesn't mean they wake up one day and all the things that bothered you are full stop gone. It's a process, it takes time. They may go back to that crappy habit or habits. Maybe in times of stress. Maybe because they've been getting lazy with the work or the focus. Maybe because of other underlying issues in the relationship. They may catch themselves. Sometimes you may have to call them out. The thing is though if they are always working on it, and they are doing so because they know it harms the relationship that is literally the best you can ask for. If you don't think that's good enough, that expectation is on you. People don't change because you want them to. People don't change because you need them too. People don't change to suit you or your needs. People change because they want to. Every single one of us needs to ask ourselves how much of our MR failing was ignoring red flags and how much of it was us willing our spouse to change into the person we wanted them to be but they didn't?

I'm not trying to be cruel. And I know this came out harsh, but I have friends out there trying to post divorce date and it's a sh!tshow. And when I see stuff like this it just makes it so clear why. Working on your self doesn't stop at D. And it shouldn't.


***Michka I'm going to address your children of divorce question on your thread.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
A person isn't their parents. A person isn't their past. And I'm sorry if your ex-spouses were but did you ever take the time to consider that maybe they just didn't put in the work to overcome that? Or that they never had the emotional maturity or introspection to recognize the unhealthy or full on toxic behavior of their parents? Are you guys psychologists? Or psychic? Do you really have the ability to predict possible behaviors based on a person's history? This big blanket generalization that a person is likely not a suitable mate because they could possible have some issues given their history is histrionic.

My personal experience on this, is that if you had a screwed up past, then a lot of women carry this around with them.

My WW came from a messed up family and turned into the exact thing she despised and said she would never become.

I've probably had 30 dates in the past 2.5 years, and family history and upbringing is a big one for me.

Upbringing and what parents defined as normality has a big impact on what the person you are dating defies as normality. Values and what people see as the norm is defined from a young age..

And my personal experience is that the ones with a poor past carry that around with them or never really understand what a loving healthy enviroment looks like - as they have not experienced it.

You are on the money when you say they didnt put the work in to overcome these issues - but here lies the problem - To these people, this was the normality... Most will never see that there is an issue, as its all they know. Ive met ladies who have moved a man in after 4 weeks to play happy families - for it to crash down 3 weeks later. The poor childrens heads must be spinning - But thats what their parents did and they see nothing wrong with it - to them, its the "norm"...
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 03:18 PM
Mr. Brightside

In my personal experience people can smell that trauma on you. And there's a very specific type of person who wants to save you, fix you, help you, give you a family or a relationship like you've never had. People like that are a problem of their own.

I had a horrible childhood. I was abused in every way imaginable. I carried that into my 1st MR. And I can say with absolutely certainty in my 1st MR I chose him because his demons were attractive because I was broken. He really like the idea of me being the broken one. And that colored everything that happened after. Hence, no more MR.

My past doesn't define who I am as a wife or mother. My past doesn't define who I am as a friend. It has influenced all of those things. And I've definitely made mistakes and some repeated mistakes because of it. My past, while it did give me some toxic behaviors that I had to work hard to get past, it also gave me deep compassion, it gave me empathy, it gave me true joy because I know how dark it can be, it gave me patience, it gave me perseverance, it gave me coping skills, it gave me introspection, it gave me strength. I'm not the only one.

Yes there is a potential for a person to not realize toxic behavior isn't normal. But there is equally the potential that a person has fought a hard to not only work through that trauma but to put in the work to change their own toxic behavior they picked up from that environment. The only way to suss that out is to actually spend time getting to know them and not immediately writing them off.

I can't stop anyone on here from holding someone's past against them. If that works for you so be it. But I stand by putting the onus of a less than pretty past on a person you don't know well instead of the ex who didn't put in the work is YOUR baggage. That is no fault of some woman you just met no matter how crappy her parents may have been. Just like it wasn't her fault her parents were like that. Your exes failed you, or your picker failed you. Either way holding that against potential mates is on you. Not them. Not their up bringing. Not their past relationships.
Posted By: MrBrside Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by wayfarer
My past doesn't define who I am as a wife or mother. My past doesn't define who I am as a friend. It has influenced all of those things. And I've definitely made mistakes and some repeated mistakes because of it. My past, while it did give me some toxic behaviors that I had to work hard to get past, it also gave me deep compassion, it gave me empathy, it gave me true joy because I know how dark it can be, it gave me patience, it gave me perseverance, it gave me coping skills, it gave me introspection, it gave me strength. I'm not the only one..

Wayfarer, i respect the fact that you recognise this and have done the hard work.

Unfortunetly, a lot of people don't do the hard work, and don't see themselves as the problem - often blaming or holding resentment to the parents / person who made their childhood traumatising.

I didnt tar all women with that brush - but i would say a lot of people prefer to blame others or not ackowledge issues, as its easier than facing their own demons.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 06:24 PM
Weighing in. I had a pretty idyllic childhood. My parents weren't perfect, but I think they were solid. They were not helicopter parents, and they certainly weren't "my kid is always right and everyone else (including teachers, other parents, etc) are always wrong!" parents. They gave us freedom but held us responsible for our mistakes. And I feel we were brought up with a good sense of morality, ethics and what it means to be a good person.

My W's childhood was not idyllic. For the first 12 years of her life her dad abused her mom. Her mom finally had the courage to get out of the abusive marriage. And her mom did a good job of raising my W. My wife too was brought up with a good sense of morality, ethics and what it means to be a good person. BUT, she has hang ups. Related to her dad, the way he was an absent father, then tried to buy her love and affection. He would berate her verbally when he felt slighted, and then shower her with cash and gifts to be a "good" dad.

My W has hang-ups from all of that, no doubt. But her good sense of morals, ethics and being a good person far out weighs those hang-ups. Do people have hang-ups from childhood? Sure. Can they overcome them? Absolutely.

So I think both sides make valid arguments. The key is that a bad childhood is no excuse not to be the best you can be. Lot of resources and ways to get over a poor upbringing!
Posted By: BL42 Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 08/31/21 07:50 PM
wayfarer,

I'm going to respond to your comments, but want to be mindful of your feelings and stress I don't mean this to be a personal attack on anyone...

Originally Posted by wayfarer
However if some one sees the world a little differently. Has a different lifestyle or interests that's not a red flag. That's you being nitpicky. Ask CW what it's like trying to force dating when you have rigid check boxes. Humans aren't a check list and women aren't there to make sure you're fulfilled in every way. Partners are an accessory to a full life, not way to complete a version of yourself you'd like people to see.
I completely agree. It's impossible to ever have 100% perfect checklist of a person - being in a relationship and marriage means merging two lives into one and clearly compromise. You're never going to find someone with exactly the same opinions, hobbies, interests...etc., and quite frankly that may become boring over time. The red flags are the bigger issues that may cause a meaningful risk to the relationship in the future.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
But this passive red flag/background red flag stuff is absolutely ridiculous and you guys sound like you're sitting on your supposed moral and family background superiority thrones deigning your presence and willingness to date on poor unfortunate souls like me should we pass your sniff test.
Respectfully, I disagree. A person's background and upbringing is most certainly a legitimate consideration when dating and potentially selecting a lifelong partner. Everyone on the board can reach their own conclusions on it and act accordingly in their post-D dating life, but it's an area I wish I'd given more weight to before marrying ExW and I plan to factor in going forward.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
A person isn't their parents. A person isn't their past.
True. However, a person's parents and past have a significant influence and often times more than they admit or even more than they realize. The problem is sometimes its modeled subconsciously and manifests itself despite a person's best intentions. MrBrside's ExW and my ExW are examples - they both recognized their parents' behaviors and swore up and down pre-marriage they never wanted to be them, but when the rubber hit the road and things got tough reverted back to the actions which had been modeled during their formative years. I suspect there are many more of the same examples on this board (though can't list them off-hand).

Originally Posted by wayfarer
And I'm sorry if your ex-spouses were but did you ever take the time to consider that maybe they just didn't put in the work to overcome that? Or that they never had the emotional maturity or introspection to recognize the unhealthy or full on toxic behavior of their parents?
Yes, I've spent a good part of the last year and a half pondering it. My ExW had been on ADs and IC since teenage years and promised me she never wanted to do what her mom did, so I had thought she did put in the work - but again reverted back to what she was modeled.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Are you guys psychologists? Or psychic? Do you really have the ability to predict possible behaviors based on a person's history? This big blanket generalization that a person is likely not a suitable mate because they could possible have some issues given their history is histrionic.
No, I'm not a psychologist and of course am not psychic. Certainly there are case in which people overcome an instable upbringing and have successful marriages as well as people who have a stable upbringing and family structure yet end up divorced, but it's a fact that people who come from divorced households are statistically more likely to become divorced themselves than people whose parents are still married. Clearly there's some impact.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Maybe I'm projecting here a little bit, because I have a very messy family history and past, but honestly I don't think I'm taking this as personally as I could.
It feels to me you are projecting a bit. I certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack. I'm sorry if my comments upset you.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Are you such a unicorn of a human being that there is no baggage or bad habits or FOO stuff or past relationship quirks that you aren't dragging along with you?
I am not perfect, and certainly have my baggage and bad habits to address.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Dating in your mid to late 30s, 40s, and 50s is already hard. Pickings are already slim. People are already out there with huge chips on their shoulders and some serious damage and glaringly obvious red flags. Are you really in a position to filter the already dwindling options you have based on your assumptions that things could go wrong because your ex's were damaged and didn't put in the work?
Maybe I'm hurt/biased/overly cautious, but I'm happy enough with myself and my life that I'd rather not marry ever again then go through another divorce.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Is it possible maybe you need to do some work on how you perceive dating and relationships if this is a common practice? Maybe you aren't healed enough to date.
Quite possible. Still have anger at times over the D, and have improvements to make. It's been 1.5yr since BD and I consciously waited until after the D was finalized, but perhaps another 6 months or a year would be better.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
One of the biggest issues I see with LBHs on here is they don't come to the same realizations that LBWs have to face over and over and over again. Those realizations being, you can't fall in love with a person's potential if they show you who they are you need to meet them where they're at, and you can't change someone, they can only change themselves.
Interesting. Why do you think that's different between LBHs and LBWs?

Originally Posted by wayfarer
Working on your self doesn't stop at D. And it shouldn't.
Agreed!

Originally Posted by MrBrside
My WW came from a messed up family and turned into the exact thing she despised and said she would never become.
Same. I've thought back about my conversations with ExW specifically on this topic many times over the last year and a half. Even referenced it in our BD conversation. Didn't matter in the end.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
I've probably had 30 dates in the past 2.5 years, and family history and upbringing is a big one for me.
It's going to be for me going forward as well. Others here can come to their own conclusions and act accordingly.

Originally Posted by MrBrside
Upbringing and what parents defined as normality has a big impact on what the person you are dating defies as normality. Values and what people see as the norm is defined from a young age..

And my personal experience is that the ones with a poor past carry that around with them or never really understand what a loving healthy enviroment looks like - as they have not experienced it.

You are on the money when you say they didnt put the work in to overcome these issues - but here lies the problem - To these people, this was the normality... Most will never see that there is an issue, as its all they know.
I agree with this strongly.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I had a horrible childhood. I was abused in every way imaginable. I carried that into my 1st MR. And I can say with absolutely certainty in my 1st MR I chose him because his demons were attractive because I was broken. He really like the idea of me being the broken one. And that colored everything that happened after. Hence, no more MR.
I'm sorry you had such a horrible childhood. No one deserves to be abused. That sounds terrible. So glad you were able to recognize how it impacted your 1st MR, and work through your past to improve your future.

Originally Posted by wayfarer
I can't stop anyone on here from holding someone's past against them. If that works for you so be it. But I stand by putting the onus of a less than pretty past on a person you don't know well instead of the ex who didn't put in the work is YOUR baggage. That is no fault of some woman you just met no matter how crappy her parents may have been. Just like it wasn't her fault her parents were like that. Your exes failed you, or your picker failed you. Either way holding that against potential mates is on you. Not them. Not their up bringing. Not their past relationships.
I may be biased/jaded due to my sitch, but do believe it's an important consideration, if nothing else more due diligence that a person has put in the work.
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 09/01/21 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
But it's a fact that people who come from divorced households are statistically more likely to become divorced themselves than people whose parents are still married. Clearly there's some impact.
And teen pregnancy begets teen pregnancy. And abuse begets abuse. And abandonment beget abandonment. But you're buying into the illusion that all stable families are built upon the bricks of other stable families. Just because something is statistically more likely doesn't mean those statics are clean and unskewed nor do those statistics take in to account other correlations or causalities. Teen preganacy being one everyone thought was because of modeled behavior of parents and peers. When those were the lowest on the list of causalities but highest on the correlation.

A lot of people on this site still hold dear to 1 out of 2 marriages in the US end in divorce. However that hasn't been true since the early 90s. The true statistic is 1 out of 3.5. We can use numbers to justify rationalize or anything else. But causation and correlation are messy things with the human variable. Your kids are now children of divorce. Are they doomed to divorce as well? You had great parents and Steve, and Gekko and Mr. Brightside did too. Yet you guys are just as divorced as your spouses are. (Minus Steve who was nearly D'd, twice)

Originally Posted by BL42
It feels to me you are projecting a bit. I certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack. I'm sorry if my comments upset you.
I admitted I may be projecting. But I'm not in the dating pool. So my projection only goes so far. And I was/am not upset. I'm annoyed. I see the guys my friends are trying to date and I see you guys are here willingly admitting this stuff and all I can think is how do I help there be less men who have chips on their shoulders or copious amounts of baggage in dating pools. This is it. This is the best I can do. Try to give you guys some female perspective. And maybe just some perspective in general.

Originally Posted by BL42
Maybe I'm hurt/biased/overly cautious, but I'm happy enough with myself and my life that I'd rather not marry ever again then go through another divorce.
To quote the great DnJ be better not bitter. Try to take a 30,000 ft view of yourself before putting yourself in the dating pool. Does any one deserve to date a person who is still in pain, biased and overly cautious. Is that fair to a woman who's ready to open up her heart? (<- That isn't just for BL btw)

Originally Posted by BL42
Originally Posted by wayfarer
One of the biggest issues I see with LBHs on here is they don't come to the same realizations that LBWs have to face over and over and over again. Those realizations being, you can't fall in love with a person's potential if they show you who they are you need to meet them where they're at, and you can't change someone, they can only change themselves.
Interesting. Why do you think that's different between LBHs and LBWs?
Well if you want to open this can of worms. Women are socially conditioned to be caregivers and to cater to the needs of others before their own. As we enter the dating pool in our 20s those of us who haven't worked through that social conditioning watch our friends date guy after guy thinking she can fix him. We fall for guys who have potential because we're babies we all have potential. We fall for guys who are great except..., because we're babies and there's plenty of time for him to grow up. And it isn't just men we do this in. We stick out immature friends, toxic friendships and try to maintain toxic familial relationships because that's what were supposed to do. And this continues for some time and for those with co-dependent behaviors this drags on for ages.

For the bulk of women by our 30s, when most of us are dealing with a narrowed dating pool and a whole lot of us have already been divorced once we start entering the period in our lives where we're bombarded with the message that we can't change men. A handful of us who went through marriage counseling start parsing out the info that you have to meet a person where they are at. You have to love person as they are not their potential. And that you have every right to walk away from any relationship that doesn't serve you because it's not your job to fix any one. We get beat with this in our heads in our 30s and 40s regardless of marital status. It's the one sided solution to dating and marriage problems. In dating is means keep 'er moving until someone isn't just potential. In marriage it buys time before things implode. If you get really lucky your spouse catches on and then catches up.

This constantly being beat over the head with don't fall in love with potential over and over is because the men are from Mars, women are from Venus crap that has infiltrated couples counseling for 2 decades perpetuates the idea that women are the ones in the relationship demanding change and having expectations, while men just want quiet and to eat sandwiches. We are the ones who want change so it's our job to deal with it. So by the time any of us get to this point in our mid to late 30s, 40s, 50s we've heard it a million times. However for guys like you who's wives are the ones who either won't grow, have regressed or have gone off the rails this is the first time you start hearing this stuff, and it's hard pill to swallow. It's forces you to realize your expectations were just as much of a problem as your spouses crappy behavior. For a lot of guys marriage counseling and places like this are the first time they are hearing and understanding the passive ways they were a detriment to their marriage and themselves. What's even harder is accepting that when you have a spouse who is actively creating detriments to the marriage, and your children and your self esteem you're mistakes feel like a pittance in comparison. However, once you start trying to date again they will come into full view. And that's an even more bitter pill to swallow, how can you possibly be the problem? How can some of the things your crazy ex said be true when 99% of the sh!t that came out of her mouth was lies? LBWs don't have that kind of blockade. We're told its our fault and responsibility from the get go even before there are problems thanks to social conditioning. (obviously this isn't an absolutely give the wives you're dealing with, but you get the point)
Posted By: wayfarer Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 09/01/21 02:37 PM
Mr. Brightside, you in particular aren't painting with a broad brush, but there are some pretty large brush strokes being made based on what's here. That's what I was pointing to.

As I said you're all welcome to filter as you choose when you date. My point is, there are a lot of people like me with beyond messed up childhoods who are incredibly good people and wonderful partners and parents. And the only way to figure that out is to get to know someone. How you guys think you're going to measure that out of the gate is what I genuinely don't understand. And in any iteration that I can fathom it makes absolutely no sense.

I don't dump my childhood on people I just meet. My current husband didn't even really get the full scope of my childhood until the day my mother died in 2018 and my stepfather went on a narcissistic tirade because I wasn't sympathetic enough to him. We had been together 5 years. We were already married. Why? Because even though that time in my life shaped me it wasn't who I was as a 35 year old woman. Because most people even with semi-traumatic childhoods can't really grasp in a full scope how bad it was until they can see something like that. In my personal experience the only people, and that includes my family members like my grandparents (my mother's parents) and my mother's siblings, who truly understand what I went through are people who lived a chaotic childhood like mine or people who witnessed my life with my stepfather first hand.

Most people I know would never in a million years dump that kind of heavy on a person they just met. And if they do it's either because they aren't like me and they have some serious unaddressed behavioral or mental health issues, and have an over sharing problem, which is an obvious red flag not a background one. OR you coaxed it out of them. And if that's the case then what are you going to once you do, ghost them? Because that's essentially what's being said here.

My point is you're making a lot of assumptions based on your personal experiences with your exes. Even them, I would bed dollars to doughnuts you never really knew or understood the chaos fully. You have no way of actually figuring out if a person is damaged by their past without digging in to their past. So what's the plan then? You're going to take the time to get someone to tell you some dark sh!t but because you've decided to never participate in a relationship with some one like that ever again because it could potentially be hard for you? So you're going to rip open a wound and then dip?

Honestly if you guys said my ex wife had blue eyes and I'm never dating a blue eyed girl ever again. Or my exW was called Jennifer I'm never dating a Jennifer ever again. That's basically what this sounds like to me, but worse, because a person has to open up to you for you for you to make a superficial judgement.

I'm not saying you can't do that. I understand that urge and desire. What I'm saying is you have to understand that behavior, that's not on blue eyed women or Jennifers or people with traumatic childhoods. That's on you. That's your hang up. That's your problem. That's your baggage. If you want to filter in such a way go ahead, but don't frame it like people with crappy childhoods are the ones with the baggage and that's what you're avoiding when you aren't even getting to know them well enough to determine if it's actual baggage. Make your choices. They're yours. But own them. The onus is on you. Take responsibility for the choices you're making and don't put a person in the position of opening up to you just for you to dump your baggage on them and run. No one deserves that.
Posted By: Gekko Re: Charting My Course (Part 2) - 10/23/21 05:57 AM
So there's been some lively discussion regarding Red Flags since my last post - this is good!

Seems like the concept of "passive" or "background" RF has hit a nerve. When evaluated within the context of my proposal as to how to deal with a RF, aka don't ignore it but instead take a hard look, raise the issue, discuss it, suss it out, evaluate it, etc. (notice nowhere in there have i said nuke the R at the first sign...), i'm not sure i get the problem with such an approach. In fact I can't say I agree with any other approach.
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