Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Drh2001 WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:09 PM
Link to old thread

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2877310&page=11

So just to recap things changed quickly. We currently have an in-house separation agreement. When I drafted the agreement it was before I knew anything about DB or found this forum.

I did research on the web and found out that to make a separation like this work it is recommended to have your own private living quarters, buy your own food and do your own laundry etc. I moved out of the MBR because I felt so uncomfortable with someone who said they didn't want to be with me anymore and I moved downstairs.

Had I known about the DB forum I would have done otherwise. As it is, the legal document contains a provision for private living areas. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Were I to demand access to MBR then all h3ll would break loose but she would have to break the agreement in some way or tell me she wasn't going to honor the terms and conditions which she has been doing. She has been pushing my boundaries telling me she doesn't need a job with a certain salary range and what if she falls in love? I haven't ruled out taking back the MBR at some point but it's in the agreement.


anyway...

WW tells me last week that she is seeing someone and she told my kids. WW has only known this guy for 5 weeks and already thinks he may be the one. He is divorced and same age. WW is even talking about moving out the house and in with him if it gets really serious.

The agreement we have said she would buy me out but there's nothing in there that says she can't leave. There's a provision in the agreement for me to buy her out if that's what she wanted. As long as we both continue to pay the mortgage off until either party can buy each other out.

Suggestions?

Posted By: LH19 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:27 PM
Can I ask what fuching kind of boundaries are there that don’t state you can’t have a boyfriend and tell our kids about him?

I would rip that bull $hit agreement up or set it on fire. Then I would pack all her $hit and throw it in the front yard and dare her loser boyfriend to come pick it up.

Unfuching believable.

Get your daughters into therapy immediately so they know it’s not normal to do that.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:44 PM
She told me she hated lying to them about her whereabouts (the only time her conscience kicked in). They kept asking her who she was hanging out with and where she was going and she would tell them she's hanging out with friends,

She would sometimes go see OM straight from work and wouldn't come back till midnight or later and didn't bother cooking for them on that day. This has happened a few times.


Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:45 PM
I told her she is being disrespectful to me and the kids by telling them this - she is normalizing her behavior to them. My kids don't like it at all and the oldest one told her she doesn't want to hear about him or know his name.

I told her OM is not to come round to the house or I will be ready.

Now if she decides to move in with him that is to my advantage. At this point I don't know what to do - the situation is throwing me off mentally.
Posted By: job Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:46 PM
I would contact a lawyer and have him/her review this so called agreement and make changes as necessary now. If she's planning to move out, then something needs to be done to address the house issue.

I do agree w/getting your daughters into therapy as soon as possible.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by job
I would contact a lawyer and have him/her review this so called agreement and make changes as necessary now. If she's planning to move out, then something needs to be done to address the house issue.

I do agree w/getting your daughters into therapy as soon as possible.


Thank you Job - I'm going to do this ASAP.
Posted By: mtb1981 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 04:49 PM
I personally think you're putting way too much value and interest into this "agreement". Your marriage is a legal agreement, and I don't see your WW caring too much about it. Yet, here you are, way too worried about upsetting your WW if you break this "agreement". In the meantime, she's not too worried about upsetting you. Blatantly telling you she is with another man, telling your kids she is seeing another man, and wanting to move in with him...

If I were in your shoes, I would have 1 goal for today. I would pack up my WW's $hit and move it to the basement. Take back the MBR and the little bit of respect you can salvage (because she has ZERO respect for you right now). I know you don't want to hear it, but it's true. You are a doormat. You are giving her everything she wants. She has no reason to stop what she is doing, and she won't as long as you keep actively participating in her fantasy by giving her everything she wants...

I wish you the best, Drh, but I don't see much hope for saving your M with the way things are going. No respect = No love = No chance at R. I really wish you would stick up for yourself and your M. I honestly believe it's the only way you'll have a fighting chance to turn this situation around. You have NOTHING to lose...
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by mtb1981
I personally think you're putting way too much value and interest into this "agreement". Your marriage is a legal agreement, and I don't see your WW caring too much about it.


TRUTH GRENADE
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:12 PM
OK guys, what if she takes me to court over me taking back the MBR. What if my kids witness her screaming and shouting and cursing at me to get out?
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:13 PM
Originally Posted by mtb1981
I personally think you're putting way too much value and interest into this "agreement". Your marriage is a legal agreement, and I don't see your WW caring too much about it. Yet, here you are, way too worried about upsetting your WW if you break this "agreement". In the meantime, she's not too worried about upsetting you. Blatantly telling you she is with another man, telling your kids she is seeing another man, and wanting to move in with him...

If I were in your shoes, I would have 1 goal for today. I would pack up my WW's $hit and move it to the basement. Take back the MBR and the little bit of respect you can salvage (because she has ZERO respect for you right now). I know you don't want to hear it, but it's true. You are a doormat. You are giving her everything she wants. She has no reason to stop what she is doing, and she won't as long as you keep actively participating in her fantasy by giving her everything she wants...

I wish you the best, Drh, but I don't see much hope for saving your M with the way things are going. No respect = No love = No chance at R. I really wish you would stick up for yourself and your M. I honestly believe it's the only way you'll have a fighting chance to turn this situation around. You have NOTHING to lose...



mtb1981, I may very well end up doing what you said. I'm getting sick and tired of the disrespect and yes you're right, she has no respect for me whatsoever. I don't want to be a doormat obviously but the agreement is signed and notarized. There is no legal separation in my state but it becomes a legal contract,
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:15 PM
Can anyone who has taken back the MBR please describe how the procedure went and what were the repercussions? I need at least some idea.
Posted By: Ginger1 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:15 PM
Take you to court over taking back the master bedroom?

Seriously?

You are making too many excuses to not do what needs to be done. Your kids seeing her yell at you is the least of your problems. She wants to move them in with a strange man.

That should be your number one worry right now. Not the master bedroom . Consult a lawyer ASAP on what your recourse is regarding your girls and her boyfriend
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ginger1
Take you to court over taking back the master bedroom?

Seriously?

You are making too many excuses to not do what needs to be done. Your kids seeing her yell at you is the least of your problems. She wants to move them in with a strange man.

That should be your number one worry right now. Not the master bedroom . Consult a lawyer ASAP on what your recourse is regarding your girls and her boyfriend


Ginger1, apt set up for this week.
Posted By: LH19 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 06:44 PM
D,

Look man I know this isn’t easy because you’re trying to keep your family intact. I’ve been there. Right now your 100% focus should be on protecting the innocence of your little girls. I don’t care if you have to break agreements or break faces you will not regret it. I have seen first hand on my ex’s side what happens when a father doesn’t protect his daughter. She never forgets it. Don’t be that guy. Your w is replaceable trust me. Your daughter’s innocence isn’t.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/10/20 10:00 PM
Quote
D,

Look man I know this isn’t easy because you’re trying to keep your family intact. I’ve been there. Right now your 100% focus should be on protecting the innocence of your little girls. I don’t care if you have to break agreements or break faces you will not regret it. I have seen first hand on my ex’s side what happens when a father doesn’t protect his daughter. She never forgets it. Don’t be that guy. Your w is replaceable trust me. Your daughter’s innocence isn’t.


LH is right on, here, doc. You gotta protect those little girls from this. You don't want them exposed to the kind of dirtbag that would mess around with a married woman, and i can practically guarantee you it was going on prior to when your W is telling you it did.

Also... you are absolutely effing crazy if you think that ridiculous agreement you keep clinging to is worth the paper it is written on. I don't know what jurisdiction you are in, and I can't ethically give you legal advice because you are not a client and I don't know your sitch but... I am a frikking attorney and I can guarantee you with near certainty that the worst ramification you would face from tearing up that POS agreement and peeing on it in front of your W [LEGAL DISCLAIMER-- NOT ACTUAL LEGAL ADVICE] would be her throwing a tantrum... which might actually be a good thing at this point.

Get. Your. Balls. Back.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 05:44 PM
Ok, for all those who suggested I take back the MBR.

I suggested it to WW to gauge response and she showed me the part about our separate living quarters in the separation agreement.

Later that evening she called the cops to say she felt unsafe with me because I was acting irrationally (I wasn't).

The cop spoke to both of us and said no crime has been committed and to abide by the agreement or else go to court. I was shocked at her action. This is not the woman I married.

It's just as well I didn't take back the MBR because I could be in a whole lot of trouble. Even if we didn't have a signed and notarized contract I suspect the outcome would be no different.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 05:45 PM
she is also talking about moving in with a guy she's only known for a few weeks and is now talking about me buying her out (when we can) instead of her buying me out.

She is acting completely irrational but I have no choice but to let her go. I will continue to do 180s and DB for me. Her actions and the speed of them scare me.

If and when she moves out, I will feel so much better for it. I'm looking at primary custody of my kids. She is not allowed to take them out of state or out of town.
Posted By: neffer Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 06:27 PM
Get a lawyer into that
Posted By: hoosjim Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 06:38 PM
Quote
Get a lawyer into that


Seriously.... What is this "contract"? Where do you live? Is it in the United States?

Was it entered before a domestic relations court (or any court)? Does it specify penalties for violation of the promises/covenants made therein? If the answer to both of these is "No", then there is little she can do if you "reneg" on the contract other than to stop performing whatever promises she made.

I am not a divorce lawyer but I AM a lawyer (and blessed to be pretty spectacularly good one, in all modesty) and I have NEVER heard of anything like this outside of a divorce decree. Never. And i have been asking around since i started following your thread.

You need to get this figured out pronto and get it put to bed (or, preferably, incinerated) PRONTO... because it is really effing you up and definitely interfering with your ability to DB.

Further addendum:

Please put the pertinent provisions of this "contract" in a post... because I feel like most of us here don't know what the hell it is and it is very frustrating trying to give you advice and support not knowing what you are dealing with.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Quote
Get a lawyer into that


Seriously.... What is this "contract"? Where do you live? Is it in the United States?

Was it entered before a domestic relations court (or any court)? Does it specify penalties for violation of the promises/covenants made therein? If the answer to both of these is "No", then there is little she can do if you "reneg" on the contract other than to stop performing whatever promises she made.

I am not a divorce lawyer but I AM a lawyer (and blessed to be pretty spectacularly good one, in all modesty) and I have NEVER heard of anything like this outside of a divorce decree. Never. And i have been asking around since i started following your thread.

You need to get this figured out pronto and get it put to bed (or, preferably, incinerated) PRONTO... because it is really effing you up and definitely interfering with your ability to DB.



I live in the US. It is not part of any domestic relations court. It is an in-house separation agreement. There is a warning that if either one of us breaks the agreement we can enforce it. It is a notarized document as there is no legal separation in my state.

I went over it with a lawyer and they said it is ambiguous, so yes, I will put it to bed.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Drh2001
I suggested it to WW to gauge response and she showed me the part about our separate living quarters in the separation agreement.


Not one single person here said to talk to her about it. Every person who told you to take back the MBR said to DO IT, not talk about it. If you had moved back in, no law officer would tell you to leave your own MBR because of some silly scrap of paper that is not legally binding. They only told you to abide by the agreement because their job is to keep the peace and they saw that as the best way to do it. They are NOT there to interpret civil disputes, that's what judges are for.

At this point I would not try to take it back or do ANYTHING other than maintain the status quo UNTIL you talk to a lawyer. And do that like YESTERDAY! Her calling the cops is a huge, huge red flag, she has put you on notice that the War of the Roses has now begun. You cannot reason with her, you can't negotiate with her, you can't deal with her at all except through the filter of a lawyer.

Quote
I was shocked at her action. This is not the woman I married.


Doesn't shock me at all, have seen it several times. And you're right, she isn't who you married. She's a WW.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 06:59 PM
I was just wondering what "enforce it" means? Unless you granted he some sort of property right in the house (or right of possession to the MBR as in a lease-hold like if you were renting to someone), I can't imagine what "enforcement" would be. Police don't have any authority to settle arguments between spouses. If there is some sort of restraining order, they can enforce it, but this definitely does not sound like what that is (requires a judge/court)

"Enforcing" a contract means either a) damages or b) "specific performance" (as in a court "forces" you to uphold your part of the contract. As for (a), I can't imagine what her "damages" would be... she could still stay in the room, but you'd be there with her. As for (b), courts generally shy away from doing this... particularly if there are no "damages" involved. Further, property rights are complicated and governed by a completely different body of law, so a judge wouldn't be able to just kick you out of the house or MBR. Most likely, "enforcement" would just mean she didn't have to do whatever she promised you in the contract.(Did she promise you anything? because if not you'd have a contract void for failure of consideration.)

I have to admit I have a strong academic curiosity about this. If you'd be willing I wouldn't mind hearing more details or see your transcript here of some of the provisions.

Either way, DB-ing wise, sounds like you may finally be on the right track... that "contract" had your b***s in a vice. Talking to her about it first was a big time mistake.

And FWIW I agree 100% with everything AS posted just above. She's gone nuclear on you, dude.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 07:17 PM
Also, forgot to add this, and it is CRUCIAL, imo-- If she is going to be calling cops on you, etc., install a voice recording app on your phone IMMEDIATELY and have it on your home screen so you can quickly/easily turn it on. You should definitely record any convo you have or are going to have with her that is related to your R or to your Separation/Divorce (if that's what's going to happen) or to this ridiculous contract. You might just want to leave it "on" whenever she is around and a convo is likely... Otherwise it's just her word against yours, and I don't have to tell you what the climate is these days WRT men accused of abusing women.... pretty much guilty until proven innocent. Protect yourself!

Also, know that she is likely to be doing the same to you, and even if she is not you should be extremely careful to remain calm, cool and collected at ALL TIMES. You can and should of course be confident, but you should not raise your voice to her, or move threateningly towards her or gesticulate wildly or anything like that. Stick up for yourself, yes... you have every right to be in that house and in that bedroom... but do your best to keep your cool and do NOT lay a hand on her, even gently, for any reason. I remember in the heat of my W's and my climactic confrontation I went back to the house for some things and she tried to bar my way out the door as I was leaving because she "wanted to talk". I remained completely cool, said "we have nothing to talk about" and instead of removing her hand from the knob and pushing past her as I could have easily done (I am 5'11 and 180, she is about 5'3" and 115) I did an about face and went out the back door.

I repeat-- be careful, be surprised by nothing, protect yourself!

Praying for you, man!
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Also, forgot to add this, and it is CRUCIAL, imo-- If she is going to be calling cops on you, etc., install a voice recording app on your phone IMMEDIATELY and have it on your home screen so you can quickly/easily turn it on. You should definitely record any convo you have or are going to have with her that is related to your R or to your Separation/Divorce (if that's what's going to happen) or to this ridiculous contract. You might just want to leave it "on" whenever she is around and a convo is likely... Otherwise it's just her word against yours, and I don't have to tell you what the climate is these days WRT men accused of abusing women.... pretty much guilty until proven innocent. Protect yourself!

Also, know that she is likely to be doing the same to you, and even if she is not you should be extremely careful to remain calm, cool and collected at ALL TIMES. You can and should of course be confident, but you should not raise your voice to her, or move threateningly towards her or gesticulate wildly or anything like that. Stick up for yourself, yes... you have every right to be in that house and in that bedroom... but do your best to keep your cool and do NOT lay a hand on her, even gently, for any reason. I remember in the heat of my W's and my climactic confrontation I went back to the house for some things and she tried to bar my way out the door as I was leaving because she "wanted to talk". I remained completely cool, said "we have nothing to talk about" and instead of removing her hand from the knob and pushing past her as I could have easily done (I am 5'11 and 180, she is about 5'3" and 115) I did an about face and went out the back door.

I repeat-- be careful, be surprised by nothing, protect yourself!

Praying for you, man!


Thanks hoosjim,


I will do this pronto. I really appreciate the advice. Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."


Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/12/20 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
I was just wondering what "enforce it" means? Unless you granted he some sort of property right in the house (or right of possession to the MBR as in a lease-hold like if you were renting to someone), I can't imagine what "enforcement" would be. Police don't have any authority to settle arguments between spouses. If there is some sort of restraining order, they can enforce it, but this definitely does not sound like what that is (requires a judge/court)

"Enforcing" a contract means either a) damages or b) "specific performance" (as in a court "forces" you to uphold your part of the contract. As for (a), I can't imagine what her "damages" would be... she could still stay in the room, but you'd be there with her. As for (b), courts generally shy away from doing this... particularly if there are no "damages" involved. Further, property rights are complicated and governed by a completely different body of law, so a judge wouldn't be able to just kick you out of the house or MBR. Most likely, "enforcement" would just mean she didn't have to do whatever she promised you in the contract.(Did she promise you anything? because if not you'd have a contract void for failure of consideration.)

I have to admit I have a strong academic curiosity about this. If you'd be willing I wouldn't mind hearing more details or see your transcript here of some of the provisions.

Either way, DB-ing wise, sounds like you may finally be on the right track... that "contract" had your b***s in a vice. Talking to her about it first was a big time mistake.

And FWIW I agree 100% with everything AS posted just above. She's gone nuclear on you, dude.




Enforcement would mean remedy instead of suing for a financial sum as our finances are co-mingled. It was my hope that a judge would order her to meet her obligations but that contact is no more. I can post a little bit of the T&C later. I think it would come under contract law rather than matrimonial law but I don't know enough about this.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/14/20 07:04 PM
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."


Great info from Jim! He went through a lot of similar stuff with his WAS, plus with his law background he's more informed than most of us on these issues. Regarding the above, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer right away, inform him or her of what's been going on, get legal input. Don't tell your W, let it be a private consult. You're gathering information on how to protect yourself legally. I think this was in another thread, but there was a discussion about recording conversations, in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

I can't stress this enough, no matter how well you think you know your W, "she would never do something like that" NO LONGER APPLIES. You really do not know what she is capable of. Once a spouse goes wayward, they will do things that are completely out of character with who they were before.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/14/20 07:50 PM
Quote
in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.


The nuances vary, but the "two party consent" states are: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington.One of the notable nuances is that Massachusetts only bans "secret" recordings. Not sure how that is defined, but putting your spouse on notice that you will be recording future convos to protect yourself probably puts you within the bounds of the law. There are other exceptions-- at least one state has a spousal exemption, and there is also an "open conversation" exemption, maybe Illinois, and an exemption for in-person vice phone convos. Point is, in all states but the above 11 you can recorde ANY of your convos no matter who its with. In the 11 listed above, it is more restrictive and you would want to ask your lawyer. Personally, I'd do it anyway (You dont have to use it if you do and can always wipe it later) to protect yourself whether or not it is strictly legal. I'd much rather be on the bad end of an "unlawful recording" charge than the bad end of a "spousal battery" charge.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/14/20 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."


Great info from Jim! He went through a lot of similar stuff with his WAS, plus with his law background he's more informed than most of us on these issues. Regarding the above, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer right away, inform him or her of what's been going on, get legal input. Don't tell your W, let it be a private consult. You're gathering information on how to protect yourself legally. I think this was in another thread, but there was a discussion about recording conversations, in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

I can't stress this enough, no matter how well you think you know your W, "she would never do something like that" NO LONGER APPLIES. You really do not know what she is capable of. Once a spouse goes wayward, they will do things that are completely out of character with who they were before.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Yes, I'm aware of the climate and I hope she isn't one of those women who would throw herself down the stairs and say to the officer "look what my husband did to me."


Great info from Jim! He went through a lot of similar stuff with his WAS, plus with his law background he's more informed than most of us on these issues. Regarding the above, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. Talk to a lawyer right away, inform him or her of what's been going on, get legal input. Don't tell your W, let it be a private consult. You're gathering information on how to protect yourself legally. I think this was in another thread, but there was a discussion about recording conversations, in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.

I can't stress this enough, no matter how well you think you know your W, "she would never do something like that" NO LONGER APPLIES. You really do not know what she is capable of. Once a spouse goes wayward, they will do things that are completely out of character with who they were before.



AnotherStander,

Thanks for the advice. I’ve already had a consult.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/14/20 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Quote
in some states I believe it is illegal without the consent of both parties (in other states I think only one party needs to consent, and that can be the person doing the recording), Jim may know more. But it's something to talk to your L about.


The nuances vary, but the "two party consent" states are: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington.One of the notable nuances is that Massachusetts only bans "secret" recordings. Not sure how that is defined, but putting your spouse on notice that you will be recording future convos to protect yourself probably puts you within the bounds of the law. There are other exceptions-- at least one state has a spousal exemption, and there is also an "open conversation" exemption, maybe Illinois, and an exemption for in-person vice phone convos. Point is, in all states but the above 11 you can recorde ANY of your convos no matter who its with. In the 11 listed above, it is more restrictive and you would want to ask your lawyer. Personally, I'd do it anyway (You dont have to use it if you do and can always wipe it later) to protect yourself whether or not it is strictly legal. I'd much rather be on the bad end of an "unlawful recording" charge than the bad end of a "spousal battery" charge.



Fortunately I’m in a one party consent state! Will be looking for a good Android recording app.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/23/20 09:46 PM
It’s been a while since I’ve posted but the atmosphere has calmed down a little.

WW is seeing OM. I don’t interfere or ask her where she is going or when she’ll be back. Our conversation is limited to the kids. She showed me a new dress she got and told me she got it for a good deal so I validated her on that.

It feels like she has become a stranger in my home. I can’t control her - only myself.

She talks about moving out at some point where in the beginning she was supposed to buy me out.

My kids are confused and my youngest said that this is the new normal.

I’m DB and consistent with 180s.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 02/24/20 01:11 PM
Drh, I like your attitude, very well done with your current approach. I am assuming she is not in the MBR? If it continues to be too stressful, at some point you might want to discuss with her accelerating her plan to move out. I'd even entertain asking her to leave since she is openly in a PA. That will do two things.

1) It will show her that you are ready to move on
2) It will make her put up or shut up

Do not underestimate the power of #2. I know in my own sitch, calling my W's bluff really made her stop and consider what she was doing. And it caused her to question how committed she really was to her walkaway plan.

BUT, do not do #2 with the expectation that it will wake her up. You have to be 100%, or close to it, sure you are ready to move on.
Posted By: mtb1981 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 03/27/20 06:55 PM
What's up, Doc?...
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 07/08/20 02:29 PM
So it's been a while since I've posted but here's an update.

I have been doing 180s and detaching and have accepted the marriage is over.

I have two kids aged 15 and 13.

WW is seeing other man still - he broke it off with her a couple of weeks ago. She still lives at the house with me but we sleep in separate rooms.

She has been acting out because of withdrawal symptoms. Her plan was to stay living in the home until next spring where she would move in with him.

Both my kids are in therapy.

Now OM reconnected with her but she wants to move into her own place so I will buy her out in a few months. She never lived by herself and married me as soon as she left home.

She thinks it will be easier on the kids if she moves into an apartment first and then moves in with OM.

If you followed my story you'll remember I drafted up a separation agreement. It stated that in order for her to live at the house she would need to buy me out but in order to afford this she'd need to get a better job. There was no end date to do this as that would have put unnecessary pressure on her. At the time we signed and notarized this agreement, OM was not yet in the picture.

Within two weeks of notarizing the document she had met OM and decided she didn't want to abide by the terms of the agreement. Ultimately she did get a better job recently. But now she has lost all interest in the house and refers to it as "my house" and the only thing that interests her is "getting the equity"

She insists she did not cheat on me despite me showing her evidence of the hotel room and the name of the dude before she met OM. I said you're a married woman living in the marital home pretending she's single. I don't care if you told me you separated before you did the deed - there is a court of law and the court of public opinion and the court of law takes precedent.



Suggestions or advise welcome.

Posted By: LH19 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 07/08/20 02:56 PM
D,

Told you that should you should have burned that agreement and it was worthless.

Get a good lawyer and try to get as much custody as possible. Your W has some serious issues.

Glad to see your kids are in therapy.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 07/08/20 03:07 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
D,

Told you that should you should have burned that agreement and it was worthless.

Get a good lawyer and try to get as much custody as possible. Your W has some serious issues.

Glad to see your kids are in therapy.



The agreement is void anyway. Apparently she took it to a lawyer who told her I was being unreasonable and that she couldn't afford to buy me out so I'd have to buy her out or sell the home.

She was the one who asked for a separation agreement. We went back and forth until she was happy with it. then we had it notarized.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 07/08/20 03:08 PM
There is no agreement in place other than we go to mediation and I buy out her share of the house. We have agreed 50/50 child custody. I'll accept nothing less.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 07/08/20 03:11 PM
Just to add she accused me of manipulating her with the agreement which is simply not true. At that point, she did not make enough money to buy me out but she wanted me to leave. I told her the only way you can stay in the home is to buy me out.

So getting a job was a prerequisite but it was the only way forwards. I was willing to leave my home so the kids could be spared the trauma of leaving their home.

There was nothing about the agreement that was manipulative but as it stands it's gone.

She actually had the nerve to tell me that most men would have done the honorable thing and left the home and let the wife have everything!!! I said so you wanted me to leave the home that I helped pay for and made more money than you and go live in a one bedroom apartment and see my kids 20% of the time? What exactly is there in this for me?
Posted By: LH19 Re: WW dropped S bomb- part 2 - 07/08/20 03:13 PM
Good for you accepting nothing less. Be the rock for your kids.

You’ll be fine!
Posted By: Drh2001 Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/02/20 01:38 AM
I've studied Sandi's threads on the differences between a wayward wife and a walkaway wife and thought I would list the things I have observed that Sandi has talked about.

My marriage of 18 years ended last September. We are both in our early 40s. There are things I could and wished I had done differently and for a time after the "separation" I tried to do 180s and give my wife space. My wife was a sweet, gentle soul who would help anyone until she cheated on me - aided and abetted by her friend and sister. We have two teenage children and currently have an IHS.

Sandi mentions in one of her posts that "I am convinced there have been extremely few who really "get" the ugliness that is born in that cold, empty, place inside the woman who suddenly crosses the line into a state of waywardness. She is lost to her new found feelings, which are all based on what is wrong. Wrong feelings, wrong facts, wrong truths, wrong dreams, wrong people, wrong standards.......everything is just wrong."


I am one of those who do get the ugliness. Sandi is spot on when she says that "husbands wonder if "surely something has fell on her that is the "cause" of all this terrible behavior and attitude."


Remember that waywards want choice without consequence and action without accountability.


I wanted to expand on Sandi's list of "symptoms" with my own observations and would be glad of your contributions to see the similarities and perhaps strategies for dealing with these issues.


https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1


*She is not the girl you married. She no longer feels the same and won't act the same.

- this is so true. I have seen my wife's personality change almost overnight. It's as if some strange force has taken over her.

She has told me herself, "I'm not the girl you married." It's weird to not only read what Sandi said but also here it from the mouth of my WW.

Script? I think so. Shortly after I busted her cheating she texted me and told me "I'm a single woman."



*No matter what her values and spiritual beliefs have been in the past, and regardless of the high standard of morals she held, they have temporarily vanished. For how, nobody knows.

- this is the part I struggle with. How could someone who was a Christian throw all her morals away? What part of her brain has been short circuited? A month after my WW cheated on me, she was hanging out with her sister going to night clubs and wearing provocative dresses. While shopping for a dress to buy for her sister's birthday, my 12 year old daughter asked her what kind of dress she wanted to buy and her mother told her she "wanted to buy something sexy."

- she openly discusses her paramour with our kids and talks about buying a house with him

- before she told our kids about her paramour, she was lying to them about her comings and goings saying she was hanging out with a friend. Some days she would see OM straight from work and not get home till after midnight and didn't bother to provide the kids with an evening meal. Those were "fend for self" nights. I add that this didn't happen often but it was enough to worry me.


*She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you.

-Her father walked out on her when she was two for another woman. She admitted to me she was a romantic and in love with the idea of being in love.


*She is in complete rebellion, and will defy you when you make demands, threats or give ultimatums.

- this is completely true. Everything is "none of my business" when I ask her about something. Yes, I get the forum's rules are to leave her be and let her do her own thing.

We signed a separation agreement last year and before the ink was even dry she broke it by telling me she didn't want to go through with its terms and conditions that she agreed to - because she had met the new guy. As it was she did end up getting a better job so she could buy me out though the situation has changed and now she wants me to buy her out.


*Her heart has turned cold and selfish. All she thinks about is what makes her feel good at the moment.

-selfishness is an understatement here. Her emotions are what makes her decisions. I was the one who got both my girls into therapy while she did nothing for them and told me they'd get used to it and adapt. She has absolutely no shame whatsoever,

-she spends money wining and dining with OM. Our finances are co mingled and I am slowly separating them.

- she told me she has checked out of the marital home, only coming here to sleep. She rarely cooks at all. But I caught her taking a rice pot with her on her way to OM's home. So she doesn't mind cooking for OM but won't cook at home because in her own words, she's "checked out."


- when we signed the separation agreement she told me "but what if I fall in love?" - in other words, she can break the separation agreement if she meets someone. At that time, she was going to buy me out the house. Her statements to me: "Why do you need 3 bedrooms; Why can't the kids share bunk beds; why don't you live in a nearby town; it would be weird if you lived in the same town" and the kicker - "How can I move on if *you're* still here?" - Excuse me? you would never have got the house if I hadn't got a good paying job and I make more than you.


*You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk.

- this is so true and this quote summarizes how I feel: "Most people, when directly confronted by evidence that they are wrong, do not change their point of view or course of action but justify it even more tenaciously. Even irrefutable evidence is rarely enough to pierce the mental armor of self-justification."


*Her brain has lost all capacity to use logic. Therefore, you cannot reason with her.

- as above. Since logic and reason have gone, I try appealing to her emotions. She tells me she feels regret but better to get it all over with now so she doesn't have to feel it further down the road.



*She cannot be trusted as long as she is wayward, and until she goes through the complete withdrawal stage from OM/A.

- I don't think there will ever be a withdrawal but she has told me on a few occasions, "why don't you trust me?!" - why would I trust a cheater who has betrayed her husband and children?



*She will cake eat whenever it suits her......if you allow it.

- this is perhaps one of the biggest ones of all - cake eating. She wants the security of the home and OM. She literally told me that she would be happy if I could be friends with OM.

When I read this forum I came across the part about the husband pulling away so I decided to do this. Shortly after the affair, her car broke down and she had to take the bus to work. She had the nerve to tell me "why didn't you pick me up from work" and I just looked at her and said "that's what a husband would do but since you fired me..."

I completely stopped doing all the little things for her that I used to like checking the oil levels in her car which she never did and doing her laundry.

I told her I would no longer allow her to come on trips and outings with me and my kids. She blew up at that and I told her that I will not have her sit in the car with me and play happy families while she is getting some on the side. Cake eating? I think so. She is perfectly welcome to take the kids on trips without me.


In the beginning, I decided I would be the one to leave and she would buy me out. I made this decision because I didn't want the kids to lose their home. She said I could still come over for Christmas and holidays but my coworker who's been through divorce says this isn't because she wants the family together but because she doesn't want to split the holidays with you.

When we discussed her giving me some monetary value for the furnishings we had bought together over the years she got angry and said she would give me nothing for the sofa as it was crap - same for the TV stand and other items.


Sandi mentions the friends part..."Many times, the WW will drop the bomb and hit the H with, "but I hope we will always be friends" without hardly taking a breath. At that particular time, she is "done" and sees herself moving on, but she wants his full cooperation and no trouble. She is "soothing" his feelings by offering her great consolation prize of friendship. Maybe even BFF!"


This was absolutely true of my situation and I told her that once we're divorced there will be no friendship. You left me for OM and you want me to be friends? Recently I told her that when she moves out she can't just stop by like she hasn't left. When she leaves she really leaves and she doesn't get to come back.



*She wants the best part of the M and the A. She gets the H for security and OM for her emotional needs.

- In her own words, she can't afford to leave right now. She sees OM about twice a week.



*She is living in a fantasy world. She wants the dream to continue.

- this is very true. We have shared Google calendars for dr's apts and such and for a particular date next year there was her "move in with OM date" - she's only known him for seven months and has already decided he's the one.

She told me "I'd likely prefer a guy who has children and doesn't want anymore, because I don't, either."



*She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions.

- I am the big bad wolf - and I told her i am responsible for half the unhappiness in our marriage but she chose to cling on to resentment and bitterness and in time, as Sandi mentioned, the three veins of waywardness manifested - disrespect, rebellion and resentment. I didn't see it then, but a unique type of disrespect was her shortness with me. Whenever I wanted to talk to her about something she would say curtly, "I'm busy; I'm reading; I'm watching something."



* Her common sense is gone and she only operates from her emotions.

- common sense has gone completely out the window and it's true, WW do operate only from their emotions and it's whatever makes them feel good in that particular moment.



*She is willing to risk everything and throw everything away for her addiction when the A is at its thickest.

- yes, she is willing to see her children only half the time, and throw her morals and reputation away for a man she's only known for six months. Did I mention the part where a psychic told her she wouldn't be "single" for long?

In one of her texts she told me that she "knows her choice comes with a price."



*She sees her H as the enemy.

- I feel like public enemy #1.



*She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog.

- there have been losses but none of them have cracked her hardened heart. Sandi mentions that it might take a physical separation (not yet happened) or even a divorce to shake them from their fog.



* She is on a roller coaster and will not act the same every single day. Her emotions will be up, down, and all over the place....but never on an even keel.

- this is very true. She told me she has regrets and sometimes she cries but it's not enough to stop her course of action. Other days, she'll whistle to herself and act as if everything is going swimmingly well while both my children are in therapy and don't understand why mommy is behaving this way.





Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/02/20 02:37 AM
Yep drh, Sandi is spot on...... Because she's been there done that. Almost all WWs follow this script and description.

My W is a Sunday school teacher. She never stopped going to church. When I discovered her EA she immediately said she wanted a D. I think part of that was to scare me into backing off and letting her cake eat. Within 2 weeks of BD, where I had discovered messages stating her and OM had discussed things and exchanged pictures, things and pictures his GF wouldn't aligned approve of, and after denying anything but innocent exchanges, she was in the guest bathroom taking nude pictures for OM. And even after he ended it because he chose his GF over my W, she was on the prowl for OM#2 after a few days of mourning loss of OM#1.

All the time playing house with me and my daughter. Wanting her cake and eat it too. OM#1 was an ex con, unemployed living with his elderly father. Potential OM#2 was a security guard making a little over minimum wage. So she needed me to maintain her lifestyle, but as Sandi says, she needed the OM for emotional and ego boosting.

The way I turned things around was by not trying to turn things around. By focusing on me. And by doing things that started to burst her bubble. I see you've had a lot of "talks" with her. Talk does nothing. You have to show action. I started to support her "plan". I supported her finding a job. I spoke to a D attorney and began to plan to file for D myself. I started looking at putting the house on the market (her plan was for me to keep the house so our daughter's home would not change). That also let her know that playing house would be impossible post D. She asked me at one point where I planned to live and I told her with a friend of mine. This burst her bubble about our daughter living with me full-time, and spending the night at her new place occasionally. I insisted that we'd do 50/50 custody.

Bursting the bubble, taking her cake, shattering her vision of how things would work slowly shook her from her wayward fog. I remember when she questioned me selling the house, I told her "it isn't fair that you get to move on to a new life, but expect me not to". This made her realize that I was going to move on too. And she could see the actions I was taking were going to allow me to do that.

I guess what I'm saying is that the key was that I was doing things to show her I was not going to cater to her wants and wishes, that I was ok with moving on without her, and that I was going to do what I thought was best and wanted. Regardless of how she felt about it!! And with the prospects of the other men she was choosing, her life was not going to be what she dreamed it would be.

When the LBH starts to stand up for himself, starts to show that he is willing to move on, and his actions show all of that, the WW's respect for him starts to return. This is why that get mad and sad when the cake starts to go away. Because they may not like you or what you are doing, but by golly they will have to respect you for it. And when respect returns....eventually so to will the attraction. Even if they don't want it to.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/02/20 02:47 AM
Thanks Steve85 for your reply. Sounds like your situation was as bad as mine.

Yes, I did a lot of talking - for all the good it did.

I don't know how else to burst her bubble. I'm buying her out shortly and she will move into an apt and then in with him next spring. Initially she was going to move right into his house but she said with renting an apartment it will be easier for the girls to transition.

And get this - OM has three kids two of which are twins about the age of my kids.

My kids will end up sharing a room with each other and they don't exactly get along. WW attention will be split five ways for all the children.

I don't want to sell the house - I just finished decorating the kid's bedrooms and their friends like to hang out here.

Can you think of any other bubble bursting ways?

Also, OM doesn't live in the school district so WW will have to do a lot of driving. I told her she can't pull them out the schools they go to.

WW wants mediation and an uncontested divorce.


Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/02/20 02:53 AM
I quote: "the key was that I was doing things to show her I was not going to cater to her wants and wishes" - I told her I did not want to be friends but that we could coparent.

I suggested that when the exchange happens with our kids every other week that I would send her forms and stuff from the school in an envelope that she could send back when it's my turn to have the kids.

She told me she would never do this because it's too business like and I'm thinking what exactly do you want? I don't want a friendship with you.

She basically doesn't want anything to change and I just have to accept her new lifestyle and not make a fuss and act like her moving on is no big deal.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/02/20 03:10 AM
Drh, the problem is not that you should try to burst her bubble. Notice what I said:
"the key was that I was doing things to show her I was not going to cater to her wants and wishes, that I was ok with moving on without her, and that I was going to do what I thought was best and wanted. Regardless of how she felt about it!! "

I didn't do things to burst her bubble, but my actions to move on myself had that effect.

For instance, you say she wants mediation and an uncontested divorce. But what do you want? Maybe you feel that participating in mediation is being a conspirator in the dissolution of the marriage, and you can't abide that. Then refuse to participate in mediation. Make her hire a lawyer, file for D, and go to court to settle things. Or maybe you go hire a lawyer and file yourself.

My wife was convinced that we could do an online cheap quickie D. My talking to a lawyer shattered that delusion. Lying cheaters shouldn't get to dictate the terms of things. So decide how YOU want to proceed and then do so, regardless of how she feels about it.
Posted By: job Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/02/20 12:55 PM
I have merged your two threads together. Please stick to one thread until you have reached 100 postings/replies. You can change your subject line at any time within a thread.
Posted By: mtb1981 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/13/20 07:27 PM
The first thing you need to do is not give a $hit about what she does or says. You seem overly concerned about "bursting her bubble", That shouldn't be your goal. Your goal is to focus on you and your kids. Live the best life possible for you and your kids. She shouldn't even be a thought. That's how you burst the bubble. It won't happen until you're completely detached and don't care whether her bubble bursts or not. Seeing you being happy and successful without her is going to drive her nuts...
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/14/20 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by mtb1981
The first thing you need to do is not give a $hit about what she does or says. You seem overly concerned about "bursting her bubble", That shouldn't be your goal. Your goal is to focus on you and your kids. Live the best life possible for you and your kids. She shouldn't even be a thought. That's how you burst the bubble. It won't happen until you're completely detached and don't care whether her bubble bursts or not. Seeing you being happy and successful without her is going to drive her nuts...


Mtb!!! Please stick around, so many of the new guys could use your guidance.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/25/20 11:57 AM
So here's an update and I need advice on what to do...

Two weeks ago WW lost her job due to Corona virus. She was unemployed for a week and then got her old job back but at a lower salary than what she had with her previous job.

She can't afford to move into an apartment so told me she is gradually going to transition to OM's house. I told her I don't want my kids moving in with OM straight away (they haven't even met him yet).

She has completely stopped cooking and leaves me to do it. When I asked her why she no longer cooks for her kids she said she's checked out mentally and if she starts cooking again it will feel like she's not moving on. What sort of reasoning is this?

So I have stopped arguing with her and trying to persuade her to think about her course of action. I did tell her she is a terrible role model for my kids who both know she is seeing OM and staying at his place twice a week. She is trying to normalize her behavior with them and justify her actions.

It has been quiet the last two weeks and we co-parent well. I think losing her good paying job knocked her confidence a bit and took some of the arrogance and cockiness out of her attitude

I will be buying her out of the house shortly.


Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/25/20 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by mtb1981
The first thing you need to do is not give a $hit about what she does or says. You seem overly concerned about "bursting her bubble", That shouldn't be your goal. Your goal is to focus on you and your kids. Live the best life possible for you and your kids. She shouldn't even be a thought. That's how you burst the bubble. It won't happen until you're completely detached and don't care whether her bubble bursts or not. Seeing you being happy and successful without her is going to drive her nuts...


mtb1981,

I have been trying to do this. It's very difficult dealing with a full blown wayward. I was trying to burst the bubble to "wake her up" but it seems she has a heart of stone. She told me she doesn't care what people think of her and she surrounds herself with friends and family who agree with and support her choices.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/25/20 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Drh2001
So here's an update and I need advice on what to do...

Two weeks ago WW lost her job due to Corona virus. She was unemployed for a week and then got her old job back but at a lower salary than what she had with her previous job.

She can't afford to move into an apartment so told me she is gradually going to transition to OM's house. I told her I don't want my kids moving in with OM straight away (they haven't even met him yet).

She has completely stopped cooking and leaves me to do it. When I asked her why she no longer cooks for her kids she said she's checked out mentally and if she starts cooking again it will feel like she's not moving on. What sort of reasoning is this?

So I have stopped arguing with her and trying to persuade her to think about her course of action. I did tell her she is a terrible role model for my kids who both know she is seeing OM and staying at his place twice a week. She is trying to normalize her behavior with them and justify her actions.

It has been quiet the last two weeks and we co-parent well. I think losing her good paying job knocked her confidence a bit and took some of the arrogance and cockiness out of her attitude

I will be buying her out of the house shortly.




Not sure what you need advice on? I am not seeing that you can do anything about her, and that you should continue to focus on yourself and your kids.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/25/20 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Originally Posted by mtb1981
The first thing you need to do is not give a $hit about what she does or says. You seem overly concerned about "bursting her bubble", That shouldn't be your goal. Your goal is to focus on you and your kids. Live the best life possible for you and your kids. She shouldn't even be a thought. That's how you burst the bubble. It won't happen until you're completely detached and don't care whether her bubble bursts or not. Seeing you being happy and successful without her is going to drive her nuts...


mtb1981,

I have been trying to do this. It's very difficult dealing with a full blown wayward. I was trying to burst the bubble to "wake her up" but it seems she has a heart of stone. She told me she doesn't care what people think of her and she surrounds herself with friends and family who agree with and support her choices.


You are talking to someone (mtb) that did exactly what he is telling you to do. And he did with one of the worst WWs this forum has ever seen. You'd do yourself well to go find his threads and read them.
Posted By: mtb1981 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/25/20 02:00 PM
I'd gather ALL her stuff (notice ALL in caps) from the MB and box it up and put it by the front door. Tell her that you agree with her and she should move in with OM, but not gradually. Immediately. What's the point of keeping her around and you both being miserable. Your kids already know. Why not just rip the band aid off instead of prolonging a $hitty situation? She can't even find the time to feed her own children. She's banging another dude. She doesn't care about you or your feelings. Tell her to beat it, and the kids will live with you. Talk to a lawyer. See what the laws are in your state about moving kids out of the marital home and in with an adulterous stranger. Now is the time to be a strong for you and your kids. All I see is your WW acting like an a$$hole and calling all the shots and you bending over backwards to meet her demands. Drop the rope with this one. Get rid of her and get on with your life. Everything you do from now on should concern only your well being and the well being of your kids. You deserve better. Let her do her thing. You've got a life to live and kids to take care of. You can do it. It gets better....
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 08/25/20 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by mtb1981
I'd gather ALL her stuff (notice ALL in caps) from the MB and box it up and put it by the front door. Tell her that you agree with her and she should move in with OM, but not gradually. Immediately. What's the point of keeping her around and you both being miserable. Your kids already know. Why not just rip the band aid off instead of prolonging a $hitty situation? She can't even find the time to feed her own children. She's banging another dude. She doesn't care about you or your feelings. Tell her to beat it, and the kids will live with you. Talk to a lawyer. See what the laws are in your state about moving kids out of the marital home and in with an adulterous stranger. Now is the time to be a strong for you and your kids. All I see is your WW acting like an a$$hole and calling all the shots and you bending over backwards to meet her demands. Drop the rope with this one. Get rid of her and get on with your life. Everything you do from now on should concern only your well being and the well being of your kids. You deserve better. Let her do her thing. You've got a life to live and kids to take care of. You can do it. It gets better....


Words of absolute wisdom!!
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 09/27/20 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by mtb1981
The first thing you need to do is not give a $hit about what she does or says. You seem overly concerned about "bursting her bubble", That shouldn't be your goal. Your goal is to focus on you and your kids. Live the best life possible for you and your kids. She shouldn't even be a thought. That's how you burst the bubble. It won't happen until you're completely detached and don't care whether her bubble bursts or not. Seeing you being happy and successful without her is going to drive her nuts...


Hi mtb1981,

Thank you. I do give a [censored] that's the problem and although I've accepted her moving on without my it's easier said than done to ignore it and ignore the damage done to my children.

Steve85, Thank you for your words of advice.

Sorry if I don't always reply immediately, I have so much going on.


Update...

We decided to do mediation. It's confidential but what I will say is that the attorney asked us when our date of separation was. WW said Sep 30, 2019. The other attorney said, "but you're still living together and for the purposes of the court, you are not separated."

Let me emphasis that again: "for the purposes of the court, you are not separated."

WW insisted that she never cheated on me, because in her mind she separated before she had an extra marital affair. Then when I busted that up she found someone else in Jan this year and decided to move in with him and take my kids too though she hasn't left yet.

She's a grown ass woman and I can't stop her. Fortunately, it looks like I will be getting the kids 4 days out of every 7 as she won't be living in the school district.

We did the mediation over zoom, you should have seen the look on her face when the mediator said "you're not separated."

It means exactly what I've been telling her, that she's a married woman who lives with her husband and children, who had a one night stand and is brazenly having an affair in front of my kids.

Vindicated.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 09/27/20 05:17 PM
The state I live in is not dad friendly so I have to do the best with what I have. We agree on most things. I just want it over and done with. She is slowly packing her stuff. I also have to take into account the children and their feelings. If I force their mother to leave it will go badly for me. And the youngest is attached to her mother.
Posted By: BL42 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 09/27/20 07:13 PM
Drh2001,

Originally Posted by Drh2001
It means exactly what I've been telling her, that she's a married woman who lives with her husband and children, who had a one night stand and is brazenly having an affair in front of my kids.

Vindicated.

Doesn't change anything about your situation, but that must have felt good. Enjoy it.

Originally Posted by Drh2001
Fortunately, it looks like I will be getting the kids 4 days out of every 7 as she won't be living in the school district.

Originally Posted by Drh2001
The state I live in is not dad friendly so I have to do the best with what I have.

If you finalize an agreement which allows you to have the kids 4 of 7 nights, that sounds like a big win to me.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/01/20 05:14 AM
OM is moving to my state end of this month and WW is pressuring me to buy her out quicker so she can use the family silver to finish his basement so my kids have a bedroom. It's disgusting but it's her money.

The sooner this toxic poisonous influence is out of my house the better.

I have a question.

My soon to be 16 yr old daughter has a busy social life and sometimes works on the weekends. If WW has her during weekends when she is with OM 10 miles away this will cause problems between my daughter and her mother.

also it seems WW doesn't want the hassle of picking up and dropping off my kids in the school district we live in as she will be moving in with OM ten miles away. So I will have them Mon to Fri evening and she will have them Fri eve to Mon morning.

She is trying to make it seem as tho she is getting 50/50 but really it's more like 57/43 for me as she'll only have them 3 nights a week.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/01/20 05:42 PM
Why can't you get 50/50 custody?

And 10 miles is nothing - you'll be fine, unless you're walking it.

Don't expect reality of y'all not being separated to make a difference in your WW's eyes. She is committed to her "point of view".
Posted By: BL42 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/02/20 01:04 AM
More than 50/50 sounds like a good deal for you - I'd jump at more than 50/50, and in practice I do have that in my sitch right now - except if your WW always has them on the weekends and you never do you may miss out on fun days and trips you can't do while they're in school during the week. You may want to think about that.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/03/20 10:47 AM
I wish I could post this question on a separate thread.

Short story - wife cheated on me a year ago and is having an affair in front of my two kids. She will be moving in with OM by year end or soon after.


WW said to me many times that "most men would leave the house and let their wife have everything and raise the kids."


Is this true? Would most LBS let their WW or WH have everything, keep paying the mortgage and live in a room or studio apt whilst paying all the bills?
Posted By: BL42 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/03/20 11:27 AM
NO! NO! NO! Do not give up your share of the house, finances, and especially rights to the kids. No way would I settle for less than 50/50 with the kids, or what I'm entitled to financially.
Posted By: Gigi123 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/03/20 12:13 PM
Being a woman whose H cheated and left, i dont expect that i Will get 100% of everything. I think it all comes down to financial position if we are talking assets, if we/he could afford to just walk away from the house i see no reason why not.
I think the children conversation is a totally separate one And will very much depend on two adults and how much involvement they both want to have.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/03/20 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by BL42
NO! NO! NO! Do not give up your share of the house, finances, and especially rights to the kids. No way would I settle for less than 50/50 with the kids, or what I'm entitled to financially.


BL42,

i have no intention of losing kids or finances. Last year we signed a separation agreement and I agreed to be bought out but she had to get a better job so she could refinance the house. Before the ink was even dry she wanted to break the agreement because she had secretly met someone. So now I will be buying her out and she will move in with OM. She'll have 50/50 custody though I'll have slightly more than 50% because they'll be with me Mon to Fri evening and then we'll split the holidays.

Her opinion was that I should be the one to move out (with nothing!) and she should keep the house, raise the kids and keep pretty much everything. I told her I would never move out so another man could move in and take my place. She even told me I could have the kids every other weekend! How generous of her!

Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 10/03/20 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Gigi123
Being a woman whose H cheated and left, i dont expect that i Will get 100% of everything. I think it all comes down to financial position if we are talking assets, if we/he could afford to just walk away from the house i see no reason why not.
I think the children conversation is a totally separate one And will very much depend on two adults and how much involvement they both want to have.



I'm sorry you went through that ordeal. You should get half. It depends on the property division of your state.

I think the cheating spouse should be the one to leave.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 11/03/20 07:33 PM
An update....I've applied to refinance the house and buy WW out. She told me she wouldn't leave the house till she got her money. Now she's saying she wants to leave the house next month even before the buyout,

We are currently going through mediation. She is a full blown WW. She charged almost $1,000 to her credit card to get a pull out sofa for OM living room so my girls have somewhere to sleep. She bought a complete living room SET not just a pull out sofa. She wanted her buyout money to fix up OM basement so my girls could have a bedroom since a refinance takes time so she went ahead and did this.

She tells me things and forgets them and then changes the story over and over again. She is losing her mind and it's terrible, to see someone self destruct and at the expense of our kids.

It feels like something else is at the steering wheel because she is going against all her norms.

I am in shock and disbelief at the things that come out her mouth.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 11/03/20 07:47 PM
Added that even tho we are sure to D I still think about reconciling in the far distant future.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 11/04/20 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Added that even tho we are sure to D I still think about reconciling in the far distant future.


Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

My only caution is not le the "I still think about reconciling in the far distant future" inform your DBing decisions. Lots of debate on here about hope, should I have any, do I need to lose all hope. I think LBSs put way too much emphasis on it. Especially since even if there is hope it could be months and years (to quote LH) before it ever becomes a possibility. And lots of WASs like to keep their LBSs hanging on so eventually it a lot sitches it is the LBS that gives up and pulls the plug on future reconciliation.

I've told the story about my ex-GF, that deep down could never really see me as more than a friend (with benefits). She tried to keep me hanging on even into our marriages. But I decided after an EA her and I had with her 10 years ago (that I've admitted to on this forum) that I was pulling the plug. I am now to the point with her that even if her husband and my wife were out of the picture, I would not be open to a love relationship with her ever again!. I believe that LBSs eventually get to that place with their WAS. AS, LH and others have pointed this out to many LBSs.

So have your hope, but DB as if there is none.
Posted By: Steve_ Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 11/04/20 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Added that even tho we are sure to D I still think about reconciling in the far distant future.
So have your hope, but DB as if there is none.


This is exactly what I need to do as well. I reached the point last night where I don't think there is hope anymore. Its kind of good in some ways to have it gone.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 11/04/20 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by Drh2001
Added that even tho we are sure to D I still think about reconciling in the far distant future.


Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

My only caution is not le the "I still think about reconciling in the far distant future" inform your DBing decisions. Lots of debate on here about hope, should I have any, do I need to lose all hope. I think LBSs put way too much emphasis on it. Especially since even if there is hope it could be months and years (to quote LH) before it ever becomes a possibility. And lots of WASs like to keep their LBSs hanging on so eventually it a lot sitches it is the LBS that gives up and pulls the plug on future reconciliation.

I've told the story about my ex-GF, that deep down could never really see me as more than a friend (with benefits). She tried to keep me hanging on even into our marriages. But I decided after an EA her and I had with her 10 years ago (that I've admitted to on this forum) that I was pulling the plug. I am now to the point with her that even if her husband and my wife were out of the picture, I would not be open to a love relationship with her ever again!. I believe that LBSs eventually get to that place with their WAS. AS, LH and others have pointed this out to many LBSs.

So have your hope, but DB as if there is none.



Thank you Steve for your reply. Another issue which I am finally getting help with is I was born with ADHD. It's not just about lack of focus and attention. It affects all areas of life. My parents tried to control it with diet when I was younger but something more is needed. I started taking medication for this recently. I was not attentive to WW needs and I got distracted easily. She took that to mean lack of interest, and out relationship deteriorated. ADHD does affect marriages, I found a website out there on it.

I absolutely intend to DB and even though she is with OM, because her relationship was built on lies it may end on lies. It's impossible to say what the future will bring.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 11/04/20 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Steve_
Originally Posted by Steve85
Added that even tho we are sure to D I still think about reconciling in the far distant future.
So have your hope, but DB as if there is none.


This is exactly what I need to do as well. I reached the point last night where I don't think there is hope anymore. Its kind of good in some ways to have it gone.



Steve,

I go back and forth, like a pendulum. One day I'm certain it's over, the other I'm hoping for future reconciliation.

One thing I do know is my WW was (past tense) a good person with good morals. She is now a selfish monster and a full blown WW.

She has made terrible choices, said outrageous things, tells me I'm only right from a "legal perspective" when I tell her she has committed adultery. I have all the evidence and she is conducting an adulterous affair from our home in front of my kids.

Because this behavior would have been so completely alien to her just two years ago I have to assume that at some point in the future, she will "come to her senses." She may never come back to me, but the horrors of what she has done will come back to her and she will have to learn to live with her guilt.

She insists she has to do this and is on a new path and she cries over our children.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 12/05/20 11:17 PM
Well my WW finally moved out and in with OM. She lives in a town 10 miles away outside the school district. We have 50/50 custody though in reality I have them the school week and she has the Fri evening till she drops them off Monday morning. My two girls are sharing a bedroom and sleeping in twin beds over there. With me they have their own room and full size beds. They're teenagers too, so no privacy there, and they have to share the house with OM's 3 kids.

Although many have told me I can move on and heal and be happy the truth is while I'm glad the toxic atmosphere has gone, I'm not celebrating or having a party. I've lost my wife, though as many say here, she is not the girl I married. My WW brazenly conducted an affair in front of my two daughters. I told her this is a family home with family values and that she should be ashamed of herself.

Her reply? "Alright drh"

I said it's not alright, it's all wrong. And at this time of year too.

She is getting some pushback from family who don't agree with her choices.

I have been keeping a journal of everything that happened since last September when she dropped the bomb. It's incredible how accurate sandi is when she describes in detail a wayward wife.
Posted By: neffer Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 12/27/20 11:37 PM
Hey Drh, you are the role model your children will follow.

Stand proud there man! Keep shining your light!

Respect!
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 12/28/20 01:13 AM
Originally Posted by neffer
Hey Drh, you are the role model your children will follow.

Stand proud there man! Keep shining your light!

Respect!



Hey neffer,

I appreciate your comment! It is very hard. Yes, I wasn't the perfect husband and unfortunately an environment was created where WW was unhappy and wanted out but she chose to hold on to resentment, anger and bitterness for a long time.

Later she got involved in bad company with a friend of the family who also cheated on her husband. Well when you get two unhappy wives together the outcome is certain. So-called friend of family provided a cover story in case I ever asked where WW was that day.

There are things I could have done and wish I'd done, believe me. I've been doing a lot of self reflecting since she moved out three weeks ago.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Waywardness and its manifestations - 01/02/21 07:49 PM
Hey DRH! Just wanted you to know that I responded to your post on my thread. Sorry you are experiencing this mess. You mentioned on my thread that you accepted your part of the breakdown in the MR. I just wanted to add that a wayward W usually blames her H for her unhappiness, and even blames him for her getting into an affair. However, the truth is that she chooses to cross that line, and nobody made her.

I don't think anyone is a perfect H or W. Learn from your mistakes (don't repeat them), and move forward. Don't take responsibility for the complete failure of the M, or for her wayward actions, b/c she has free will and is showing it before the world. It does no good to try and shame her. At the moment nothing else is more important to her than getting her emotional fix from OM. It's very difficult to understand her thinking, b/c it's so insane.

One day, her eyes will probably open as the result to a painful loss. Although you can already see several things she has lost.......those particular things were not the big eye opening loss. You may never know what the loss is, b/c she may never admit it to you. It may be several years away, but I believe it will come. Now please understand that just if her senses return, it doesn't mean the two of you will get back together. She may be in another marriage, or she may move on to OM#3 or 4, who knows! The important message I want you to take to heart is that you are able to close the book on this M if the D goes forward. Yes, you'll have the kids between you, but that type of relationship is completely different. You can be happy again, and even fall in love again (not rushing). I know you are suffering now, but please believe that your life is not over, even if your emotions feel it is. These days, a guy in his early 40's is just getting ripe. wink So, mourn the loss of this M, and just remember that better days are in your future.

Don't stand in her way. Protect yourself, and take very good care of DRH.

Keep posting.


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