Link to first thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2878654&page=1H 37; Me 36
His D 15
My D 17
T 7; M almost 3
Figured he was having an EA in early Nov 2019. ILYB Dec 2019. EA became PA at some point in here. Early Jan 2020 says he’s moving out in April. Haven’t really seen any movement in either direction. In fact he’s been walking the line between the two lives as of late instead of hostile, silent, avoidant or just plain missing.
I feel like there should be a way for her to transition to, okay, you've stated your decision for now, so how can we focus on your happiness and wellbeing in the now? My IC sometimes says, How can I support you right now? Or, What kind of support do you need right now? I don't always know how to answer her. I don't see why you couldn't be honest with her and say, you know, "I am confident in my decision for now, though I give myself the freedom to change my mind. This is the kind of support I feel I need this week: xyz." Or just, as you say, "I need support on the path I've chosen." You can let her know it might not be a good fit for you otherwise, but maybe you wouldn't even have to say that. You could just know it. If she doesn't start to meet you where you are, you could reach out to some other ICs.
I’ve already reached out to the counselor who did our one whole discernment session. She said as long as H is fine with it she can take me on as an individual. Since he said “I hope you know I’m never seeing that b**ch again.” I think we’re safe. She’s the one who told me to pick up DR and to come here. She upfront said she can definitely help me on my path. And that she’s not perfect and to be sure to communicate with her if we ever aren’t seeing eye to eye or she’s not meeting my needs supporting me. I think it’s just better that I cut ties and move on.
I feel you. I got in bed last night and I could smell H (He probably was sleeping here when we were out of town). It made me really miss him. I actually texted him and said I miss him. Of course, no text back. My first late-night-couldn’t-stop-myself text and probably my last. When I look at him, I miss his old aura. Now there’s this empty shell around him. Even when he’s being friendly, loving....it’s just not the same anymore.
But sweet memories aside, I’m glad that he’s removed himself from this family for now and has taken that darkness with him. The anger, the frustration, the irritability, the yelling, just whole bunch of negativity in general....I would not want to take those back for brief moments of love.
Wooba that aura thing got me. I felt that. My H isn’t a shell. He’s just off. Even when he’s away from me the one or two of his friends who will actually engage with me tell me it’s like he’s pretending to be who he was. Not a shell but like photocopy of a photocopy. Not quite right. That’s another thing that helps me stay detached. Even when he starts being like his old self it’s like a person pretending to be him. That alien feeling I guess. Just not full fledged. Like one that’s learned how to assimilate.
Just an update. And for even newer newbies this is why detachment is key. Things that happened in the last 2 hours. My step daughter informed me her dad picked her up from school for the first time in weeks. That he told her about OW and told her he would like her to meet OW. An hour after she told me that he came home from the gym. He had a 25 min convo with me. Was excited about the dinner I made. It’s one of his favorites. Ate dinner with us as a family and asked what movie I want to watch. He’s texting her. I can see it. But looks over at me at the funny parts. This roller coaster is every day. If I couldn’t detach and let him drag me along for this ride I’d be a bigger mess than him. A guy friend said as he dives deeper into his R with OW the more attractive I’ll look if I can keep this up. I become the unattainable one. I become the one that isn’t needy. I’m the one who demands nothing from him. Zero expectations. He may leave. He may fully pursue the OW, but he’ll do so looking over his shoulder. On the days it’s really, really hard I think about that. Whether I decide to stand in the long haul or not me firmly planted in his review mirror keeps me going. I’m more than happy to be the one that got away.
Wayfarer, wooba... this is weird. I saw that off-ness in my H (in retrospect now it started in the beginning months of his A
a couple of years ago). I so clearly remember starting MC with him the first time and he was so cold and remote and weird about so many things and I wondered who this person was who looked like my H but inside was someone else?
That off-ness is gone. It went away sloooowly, probably starting six months ago, then faster as things started to come to light. I would say in the last few weeks, since (a) he told me the full scope of their A and (b) we slept together-- not sure if the latter has anything to do with it but since it started again the same night as the last BD it is hard to separate-- he feels back. We connect again as friends and it doesn't feel forced. That being said, he's sad, confused, so so torn, not in love with me, very well may leave me etc... but that weirdness is gone (at least for now). Not sure what that means. Probably nothing. I do know that the lying was really, really weighing on him and maybe getting that off his chest has made a big difference for him.
Wayfarer, seeing the discernment counselor sounds like a great plan-- let us know how it goes. I have my first IC appointment next week.
So I as usual jinxed myself. Kids left the room and H asks be how I’m doing. Then asks “how are you really doing?” I say to him a “Huh?” Then he asked again. Told him I’m doing as well as can be expected. I ask how he is and he says same. Then he goes into asking if things are still in motion for him to move out in April. I said things are exactly the same. I’m solvent in June with out your income but I need help in April and May exactly as we talked about before. He just lost it. He basically called me a welfare queen because I won’t get a second job to make it work. I can say with absolute certainty that I did not detach nor did I DB in anyway until the end of that mess. I did calmly inform him that if he won’t voluntarily help me the court will make him. Which then he started screaming at me that I’m threatening him and that he knew I’d do that and that I always do that. He tried to leave in a huff. I managed to talk him out of it and asked for a few minutes where he really listens. I asked why it was my responsibility to bank roll his life choices that destroyed our MR. He went back to the welfare queen thing for a second. Then shifted gears into I said I’ll try to get you that money I don’t know why that isn’t good enough. I said I don’t have a lot of faith in you saying you’ll try right now. I’m sorry. He went on about how long am I going go make him suffer. He’s miserable on the couch. He’s miserable working 7 days a week. He’s miserable being stuck here. I said I’m sorry that you’re so miserable. I don’t want you to suffer or be miserable. I’m not sure why you think that. I’m not that person. And I really do understand how miserable you are better than most. I don’t know why you keep trying to make me the villain in your story. And rewriting who we were and who I am. And then I went full anti-DB I said I think the real issue here is you have no idea how hard it is for me to constantly be trying to keep things going smoothly and just let go of you giving you all the space you want so you can be happy. You’re the one that doesn’t love me anymore. I still love you and I’d never want you to suffer or be miserable. I genuinely want you to be happy but I can’t put your happiness above my survival or my sanity. I offered you the bed on weekends you won’t take it because you’re out all night. That offer still stands. I’ll say you trying to get me the money I’m asking for is enough for me if that’s what it takes. I do still want to do the legal separation and do it jointly and split the household as amicable as possible like we discussed a long time ago. I’m sorry if you thought I was threatening you. That was never my intention. And I’m sorry that I yelled back at you. I really didn’t want to be like that. But you have to understand you spent the better part of 2 months acting like I was the worst thing that ever happened to you when you come at me my anxiety rises and I get defensive because I’m terrified of what awful thing you’ll say to me. He looked at me and his eyes were welling up and said when did I ever say awful things to you and immediately turned away. I told him some of the things he’s said. He then said I’m rewriting what happened he never said any of those things. Especially not I never really loved you. I said I didn’t say I believed it but it was said. I really am sorry the way this conversation went. Still won’t look at me. Eyes still welling up. He says it’s fine I’ll get over it. I got up and went to shower. He left while I was in there.
I cried in the shower. I called my bff and cried some more. She asked that maybe I be vulnerable around him the way I am with her. Especially the way I told her I do really just want him to be a happy, healthy, whole person with or with out me regardless of any other thoughts I have on that. I said that while crying a lot. I’m not a big crier but this has got me some place else. The thing is how I am with her is the truth. My truth. At the core of this whole mess I love him and while I logically know his misery has little to do with him being “stuck” here I do feel that I’d just like to see him actually happy again. I told her though that I couldn’t do that. I can’t let him see me cry ever again. That he’ll have to take the version of thatt that he got with my walls up because he’s not in a place to give a damn about my vulnerability. He doesn’t even have enough empathy to think “man I do owe her at least a little financial help for a little while.” How could he possibly see me fall apart telling him I love him and I only want him to be happy? More than anything I want him to find real joy again while I sob? How would that possibly go any other way than him looking at me and thinking I’m pathetic? She agreed. But said I worry you need that moment where you get to say how you really feel about all this and you won’t do it because you want to win, or refuse to let him see you weak, or you’ve decided he doesn’t deserve to be let in ever again. I worry your pride and plan here is going to stop you from putting everything out there that you’d really deep down like to.
Honestly she’s right. I want to say so much. But I also don’t want to say a word DB or no DB. I have no idea if putting these walls up constantly are proper DB or stopping me from a 180. I was a pursuer but not the crying begging kind. I’d constantly block his path running and logic him back. And as much as I complain he may have never really known me I guess I never did take all the walls down for him. I was rarely completely vulnerable. I was a softer version of my normal grade A b**ch self but never fully went open with him. I guess if we ever got to MC we’d have to talk about that. But I should probably write that down fir my next IC. Ugh this is a hot mess. I guess I’ll jump back in the DB wagon in the morning. And start all over.
(((((wayfarer)))))
I had somehow missed your earlier post last night.... It is the absolute worst when it *seems * like things are all going great and yet they're not.
Whenever I had R talks in the same place you are now, I always wished I hadn't... but then also was glad I had a better sense of what was really going on. Don't worry about not DB-ing. You were authentic and you didn't play into what maybe he was (subconsciously) fishing for, either a "yay yes, so looking forward to April 1, you're totally off the hook" or turning into a raging b**ch so he can justify why he wants to leave. (And welfare queen? Really? I hope you can just laugh at that.) It very well could be that the nice daily interactions fed an impression that you were fine with just being friends. I know that has been the case with my H during spots of all of this. Not to say you shouldn't do it, but they're so desperately wanting to be given permission to do whatever it is they want/need to do without hurting you that I'm sure they will glom onto any bit of "evidence" that feeds that fantasy.
Things to keep in mind:
-- no matter what he is saying, he IS torn and confused and sad. You saw that in his responses and his tears.
-- if it was so hellish at home, he'd be gone. Don't feel guilty about him sleeping on the couch or whatever. It is his choice.
-- his head is so far up his own backside right now that he probably simply *can't* see you where you are and really understand what you need or what you're saying or showing him. Maybe it helps to think of him like a brain-damaged person. He just doesn't have the tools right now to deal with you or his feelings about you/OW/life generally.
-- you need to do what you are comfortable with in terms of showing him your vulnerability or not. I think the DB stance would be DO NOT and since that seems to align with your own comfort space I would go with it.
Sometimes a good cry is what you need. Maybe write everything you want to say down in a letter and put it away. Maybe sometime you can give it to him, or not.
You got this, wayfarer. Re-read your own thread. (*I* read your old posts for strength all the time!!)
((HUGS))
I think vulnerability is a tricky thing. DB says no, show him the upbeat & carefree side always, but I don’t agree with is completely. The rare occasions when I couldn’t help myself and showed my vulnerability to my H, he sometimes would reciprocate and lower his guard, and tell me that he’s hurting too. These windows to his inner self are extremely small and they’d only last a few seconds. It’s as if he felt the hurt and the wave that’s coming and he decided to shut the window again.
If we didn’t have those brief moments of honesty, we would be these two strange people pretending to be happy and upbeat all the time in front of each other. Making small talk. Smiling. Making jokes. Touching each other even.
I’ve thought about it too - does showing vulnerability and that I still care make me a plan B (I hate that expression btw)? He still has me under his spell? I don’t think so. I’ve told him I’m standing for the M. So obviously I care about us and I still love him. But I’m moving forward with my life regardless. I’m not moping around waiting for him to come back. I’m GALing and he can see that. Showing vulnerability does not make you weak. It keeps you honest with yourself. You can be strong and embrace your vulnerabilities.
Things to keep in mind:
-- no matter what he is saying, he IS torn and confused and sad. You saw that in his responses and his tears.
-- if it was so hellish at home, he'd be gone. Don't feel guilty about him sleeping on the couch or whatever. It is his choice.
-- his head is so far up his own backside right now that he probably simply *can't* see you where you are and really understand what you need or what you're saying or showing him. Maybe it helps to think of him like a brain-damaged person. He just doesn't have the tools right now to deal with you or his feelings about you/OW/life generally.
-- you need to do what you are comfortable with in terms of showing him your vulnerability or not. I think the DB stance would be DO NOT and since that seems to align with your own comfort space I would go with it.
Sometimes a good cry is what you need. Maybe write everything you want to say down in a letter and put it away. Maybe sometime you can give it to him, or not.
You got this, wayfarer. Re-read your own thread. (*I* read your old posts for strength all the time!!)
((HUGS))
I did not find the welfare queen comment funny. I’m the one who threw the term at him. I do now a bit but at the time not at all. He compared me to his D’s mother and said “Your plan is just kicking it expecting me to pay for two household.” He and I grew up on government cheese and peanut butter. (Any one from the UK reading this I’ll be happy to explain) we’ve both worked since we were in our early teens for survival not just nice things. The fact that he was acting like I just wanted his money for poops and giggles or so I could get a handbag I don’t know was super infuriating at the time.
I really needed the “things to keep in mind.” Today was a rough day. Not a hopeless day. Not a challenging day. I just couldn’t shake how he made me feel flipping out and yelling the way he did. The old H wouldn’t have been like that. And it’s hard to adjust when the alien come flying back after weeks of being gone. And that kind of accusatory yelling triggers me. Back to childhood and my junkie ex. CPTSD is no joke. So shaking that crappy flashback feeling today was super hard. I couldn’t concentrate. But this helped me with some relief.
I did write him that letter. I think I need to revise it when my head is in a better space. And maybe I’ll read it someday. Who knows.
I think vulnerability is a tricky thing. DB says no, show him the upbeat & carefree side always, but I don’t agree with is completely. The rare occasions when I couldn’t help myself and showed my vulnerability to my H, he sometimes would reciprocate and lower his guard, and tell me that he’s hurting too. These windows to his inner self are extremely small and they’d only last a few seconds. It’s as if he felt the hurt and the wave that’s coming and he decided to shut the window again.
If we didn’t have those brief moments of honesty, we would be these two strange people pretending to be happy and upbeat all the time in front of each other. Making small talk. Smiling. Making jokes. Touching each other even.
I’ve thought about it too - does showing vulnerability and that I still care make me a plan B (I hate that expression btw)? He still has me under his spell? I don’t think so. I’ve told him I’m standing for the M. So obviously I care about us and I still love him. But I’m moving forward with my life regardless. I’m not moping around waiting for him to come back. I’m GALing and he can see that. Showing vulnerability does not make you weak. It keeps you honest with yourself. You can be strong and embrace your vulnerabilities.
I was trying to get to this last night, but it was a long day with very little sleep the night before and I honestly fell asleep trying to respond last night. The little windows of vulnerability from him that I can recognize. I've seen it. But it's only when I'm stoically calm saying incredibly emotional things. In the beginning my tears made him.....volatile, I guess would be a good word. I can't really say explosive. It wasn't exactly rage. But it was cruel. He said the most awful stuff to me when I was a tearful mess. How he'd behave now, who he is now I have no idea. But I can't shake the fear of opening up and being actually vulnerable instead of saying my piece in a completely controlled manner DB or anti-DB aside and I worry if my fear is founded was looking for that window of humanity and vulnerability worth it.
With the exception of the fights and the handful of calm talks in Nov and Dec we are "two strange people pretending to be happy and upbeat all the time in front of each other. Making small talk. Smiling. Making jokes." Basically Jan 9 to Feb 4 that's exactly who we were. And as messed up as it is I took comfort in that. It's calm.
So the Plan B thing is a thing I struggle with too, because being here with so many in the same boat what I can see is LBS aren't exactly a Plan B. It seems more like Plan A1 running Plan A2 staying. It feels like most of these WS are constantly unconsciously weighing them against each other and a lot of the time they stay on equal footing.
But to continue with the vulnerability talk. H has asked me repeatedly to watch Marriage Story. I know the premise. I know about Charlie reading the letter at the end and other important points. But I can't bring myself to do it yet. My other fear here is that my bff is right. That I have to let him in. That this push to watch that damn movie means something. That he wants to know what I'm thinking and feeling but won't outright ask. And even though he's completely tunneled in his own mess most of the time he still knows me well enough to know that I won't let him in on my own, because I don't want him to let him have that kind of power over me. I know none of this is coming from a place of control. I know he isn't trying to win by what is happening here but because of my past that's just how I operate. My factory preset is if I show weakness, hurt, fear, any of it that I'm giving in, that I'm giving the person hurting me exactly what they want. I think what my friend wants for me is to just tell him what I think and feel about all of this, because I haven't. Other than the night I raged, and when we've fought since he's never really gotten any of the things I think or feel. Because I am so A type all of our calm conversations even before DB were action oriented. What are we going to do? How are we going forward? How do we handle this with the kids? I haven't talked about the pain. I haven't talked about my love for him. I haven't talked about how I'm handling this. I haven't talked about my fears for our future apart. I was the first to take my ring off. I was the one who told him to go to couch. I went radio silent first. I go radio silent the longest. Which some of is DBing and some is me just being me. As far as standing, I wouldn't ever tell him I'm standing for this M. Or that I think he'll be back some day. I'd never let him have any indicator that I'm not moving on. DB or no DB. There's no way in hell I'd let him have my hope for the future. He honestly thinks I already am moving on he's said as much. And I'd like to keep it that way. I'm struggling to find a way to bridge the gap between protecting myself from him and giving myself the closure I'll need. I know won't ever truly be able to move on if I don't say at least some of what I want to say. But I also don't want to sacrifice a part of the inner me to a person who doesn't give a d@mn and on any given day I don't know what or who he cares about besides himself.
Watching Marriage Story was hard for me, and it has been 10 years. It does a good job of showing the typical process. There were many places where either one of them could have made DBing choices.
It has been awhile since I watch this one:
Fireproof Movie....Basically, if you want to see a really good love story, with lots of values and morals in it, and you don't necessarily care how bad the acting is, this is the movie for you!
If you do decide to watch MS, watch fireproof as well. I believe they save the marriage, but it has been a long time.
He asked you to watch it. Then you do it, not because you want to, but because he asked. You can pull the same on him. Watch Fireproof and see if you think he should watch it.
W:"I watched MS because you asked me to. Here is FP, please watch it for me."
As far as BDing, I believe many here are being too passive and ignoring too many things that should be addressed. You did fine. DB says do not initiate the talks. He initiated. He probed.
When this happens, you speak your truth. You listen to understand. You show your hurt. You say what you want from them. You also have guage how receptive the other person is. Are they listening? Can they handle this? Can I handle this? Is this working to help with my goal to save this? Can you listen to how the other persn is feeling? Can you not argue?
It is hard. extremely hard.
HUGS
Hi Wayfarer,
sending hugs... you already sound better today and I'm really glad.
On the vulnerability piece... I do think you need to be comfortable with the level of vulnerability you choose (or do not choose) to share with him. If you simply aren't comfortable and force yourself to do it and he does or says something that hurts you, you need to be OK with the fact you shared in the first place because you felt it was the right path for you to take. I have had moments where my H has thrown back in my face things I've shared with him, especially around the SSM, and I've called him out on it and he's apologized. But I think if I'd had a harder time sharing those things with him in the first place I would/could have felt really badly.
For me-- I have been vulnerable, quite a bit, especially in the DC's office. I don't regret it but by nature I am crap at keeping these kinds of things to myself and not sharing them with H. I can be private with acquaintances but have a really hard time not being open with close friends and especially with H. It is part of the reason I've had a hard time when with good friends over these past months because I feel like I'm lying to them every time they ask how I'm doing and I say fine and smile. Because that is my default position, I am OK with being vulnerable and knowing it could bite me later on. I think you just need to be OK with what you share before you make that choice. A lot of times I try to put myself in my future shoes and ask myself what is the worst that would happen if I did this, and how would future me feel about it? Would I regret it or not?
Maybe keep working on your letter so at least you have your thoughts down on paper whether you give it to him or not, or say it to him or not at some point in the future. I packed up his Christmas ornaments in a separate box after Christmas this year and put a note in there for him. It was a weird kind of closure/freeing moment because he's not going to see it for at least a year but I can't take it back either.
When this happens, you speak your truth. You listen to understand. You show your hurt. You say what you want from them. You also have gauge how receptive the other person is. Are they listening? Can they handle this? Can I handle this? Is this working to help with my goal to save this? Can you listen to how the other person is feeling? Can you not argue?
I really like what R2C says here-- all the ways to gauge how far to go in any particular situation.
Hang in there.
So the R talks that I thought I wanted I don't know that I want them any more. I want to go back to avoiding each other. How do I do that? Lol. My daughter was giving me trouble this morning. She's been very moody lately. She insists its not what's going on in our house, and she's being a snot with her boyfriend and her bff too, so I think she's just kinda being a not super fun person right now. Every one should have teenage girls they're amazing. I texted H that he may not care but I wanted him to know that my insistence to take the girls to school instead of him today and me being crabby this morning had nothing to do with him. That I wanted to discuss my daughter's issue further. And she was frustrating me. We talked about her for a while. And I told him I appreciate him letting me vent and listening. His response was I'm not the sh**ty person you think I am. I know my wrongs here. And I've apologized and will keep apologizing. No matter what, I'm always going to be here to listen to you and to support you with D17. I just bawled at my desk. It's so much harder when he's human. I sent him a long message. Maybe too long. Basically saying, I never thought you were a terrible person. You're a good person who made terrible choices. I've told you that. And nothing about that has changed.I just don't know how we fit into each other's lives right now, and this is complicated messy territory, that I don't know how to navigate. So I kept you out because that was easier to deal with the hurt. Now us being strangers hurts more. So I don't know. He sent back I'm not sure how to respond to that, but just know I'm always here to listen to you if you need me, especially when it comes to D17.
I don't know why this convo has me so broken up. It wasn't about any new information or particularly devastating info. Maybe because of my fear about him and my D losing their relationship. H is her dad for all intents and purposes. Her bio dad's parents and the money the state sends me from his paychecks are really her only connection to that other guy. Maybe because it makes me miss him or my old life more. Maybe because I feel like all these R talks are because we both know he's going in April for sure and because we're functioning on his accelerated I got run from my misery time line it's all getting piled on, quickly after a month of silence. I have no idea really, but I can't get myself together like at all. Why does him being nice and supportive affect me so much??
I think you just need to be OK with what you share before you make that choice. A lot of times I try to put myself in my future shoes and ask myself what is the worst that would happen if I did this, and how would future me feel about it? Would I regret it or not?
Maybe keep working on your letter so at least you have your thoughts down on paper whether you give it to him or not, or say it to him or not at some point in the future. I packed up his Christmas ornaments in a separate box after Christmas this year and put a note in there for him. It was a weird kind of closure/freeing moment because he's not going to see it for at least a year but I can't take it back either.
I think all of this is something in need to keep in my pocket as far as letting my walls down. I've been editing the letter a little every day. I'd like to get to where I'm not flat out saying you're depressed and in a crisis, get help, because moving out and OW will never fill all the holes the misery you're in has created. I won't wait forever for you to figure this out, and you're going to end up dying alone if you don't. I'm gonna hazard a guess he wouldn't be that receptive to that. I need to make it more about me and how I feel and what I think, without anger and saying things I know he has to figure out on his own.
Reading the Christmas thing broke my heart. It's so beautiful, and so sad at the same time. I could see how that would give you some closure.
When this happens, you speak your truth. You listen to understand. You show your hurt. You say what you want from them. You also have gauge how receptive the other person is. Are they listening? Can they handle this? Can I handle this? Is this working to help with my goal to save this? Can you listen to how the other person is feeling? Can you not argue?
I can only answer one question with certainty about that last mini R convo. And I'm pretty sure the answer is no I can't handle it. Lol. But these are things I'm going to have to keep in mind. I really appreciate the advice. And I'm gonna by a huge box of kleenex and suck it up and watch Marriage Story.
I don't know why this convo has me so broken up. It wasn't about any new information or particularly devastating info. Maybe because of my fear about him and my D losing their relationship. H is her dad for all intents and purposes. Her bio dad's parents and the money the state sends me from his paychecks are really her only connection to that other guy. Maybe because it makes me miss him or my old life more. Maybe because I feel like all these R talks are because we both know he's going in April for sure and because we're functioning on his accelerated I got run from my misery time line it's all getting piled on, quickly after a month of silence. I have no idea really, but I can't get myself together like at all. Why does him being nice and supportive affect me so much??
I'm not feeling wise at all lately, wayfarer, not like I have any insight to offer, but I empathize. These reasons you offer all make sense to me. I think it's even harder to process when we are surprised by our feelings surfacing. Not new info, not devastating info, but it seems like you did open yourself up here a little bit, in honestly saying you don't know how to navigate this situation. You were vulnerable, and he responded with, "I don't know how to respond to that." That's probably honest too, but not satisfying. It feels like another instance of being not quite strangers to me. A nice, supportive way of saying I'm here for you but not in the way I was before. Also "I don't know how to respond to that" = I don't have those kind of complicated feelings, but...
Not to say that is all what he's thinking or what he means, not trying to mindread, just reflecting on my own now, I guess, why some conversations affect me when I feel like they shouldn't. Crying-at-work days are the worst. (((wayfarer)))
Also, all of you who can watch Marriage Story, I salute you! I sobbed while watching the finale of The Good Place this week. Thought I'd be able to get through it.
I think all of this is something in need to keep in my pocket as far as letting my walls down. I've been editing the letter a little every day. I'd like to get to where I'm not flat out saying you're depressed and in a crisis, get help, because moving out and OW will never fill all the holes the misery you're in has created. I won't wait forever for you to figure this out, and you're going to end up dying alone if you don't. I'm gonna hazard a guess he wouldn't be that receptive to that. I need to make it more about me and how I feel and what I think, without anger and saying things I know he has to figure out on his own.
Here's a suggestion. Put the letter aside and start a new one-- this one focused 100% on YOU. Where you are, how you feel, your fears for yourself and your girls, your wishes and dreams for yourself and your girls (that might include him, or might not). I wouldn't censor yourself from a DB perspective on this (because you aren't going to give it to him), so just say what you feel. Not what you think about what he's doing and your fears for him. Sit with yourself.
My guess? That might be both helpful for you-- to get it down on paper-- and a better to start with what you might say to him, because I agree with your guess that the dying alone part won't really fly so well
And yes, given your reaction to the conversation today, you probably aren't ready to have that conversation with him yet. But the more comfortable you are with understanding where YOU are right now and what your own fears are, the more comfortable you will be in expressing them, or not, to him eventually.
My only other concrete piece of advice... which you can absolutely take or leave... I stopped texting anything meaningful. We used to fight on text which was really stupid. Now I leave texts to business or fun with H and if I have anything important to say I call him or wait to talk in person. I just don't want the evidence of me having said it there on his text thread, plus who knows how he interprets it. Just a thought. And, you can't really interpret his responses either without the context of his voice/presence/whatever. He could have meant it along the lines of what cardinal suggests, or he could have meant holy crap I'm just so overwhelmed with feelings myself I just don't know how to respond. The only thing I know to be true right now is that I want you to know I will always, always be there for you and for D17. You know his head is a mess and he knows that at some level too. I just feel like communication is hard enough without adding in the built-in potential misunderstandings of texting.
You're so strong. You got this. Deep breath, wash your face, give yourself some slack and do something special for yourself, and get back in there.
I’m getting more and more lost in H’s half in half out behavior and feeling just genuinely terrible at this. He waited up for me again Friday night. Long convos about kids, my night out, his night in and mutual friends Saturday. He spent the night away Saturday. I’m guessing with OW. But came home and had candy for all of us(?) by like noon. Was stoked about the dinner I was planning and dessert I had already made. Then tells me oh you’ll have to teach me that when I leave. I really am going to miss your cooking. To which I said well my food stays with me but we’ll see about me teaching you a few things, in a flirty way. Then he said made some flirty comment about how he knows how he knows how to get what he wants from me and really wants the recipe. Dinner and family time. More joking. Then winding down for the night we’re in separate “beds.” I’m here feeling confused. I’m sure he’s texting OW. The closer he gets to who he used to be. The more he leans back into the family even if it isn’t necessarily leaning back into me the harder it is to shrug him off. I know I’m my gut he’s going to move out. He’s convinced he’s going to go. Honestly it’s probably best for both of us if he does. I could really use a little break from the push pull. I don’t know if both of us accepting him going is relieving some of the pressure and we’re just finally relaxing around each other. I don’t know if he feels because I’m so zen about whatever that he thinks we’re bffs or friends who used to have benefits. I’m trying not to overthink and try to figure this out but this is getting harder and harder the more things are like they used to be. As heartbroken and lost as I felt when he was cruel and standoffish this is a totally different lost feeling. I don’t feel like I’m drowning any more. I feel relieved at he idea of him going but I still feel the pull so strongly when he smiles and looks at me the way he used to. Even if it’s just for a minute. I wish I knew how to just stop loving him. I feel like if I would’ve just let my anger have me it would be so much easier getting through this. If I didn’t want to hold on to him or the marriage all of this would be so much more simple. Sigh.
(((wayfarer)))
what's your line? When will you stop being friends with him-- when he moves out? That's been my line too, and I know my H doesn't believe me that I'll really stop being his friend if he leaves. (Maybe he does a little, but that is what he is saying to me.)
Do you still feel like he's a little off-- a photocopy of a photocopy?
I feel that the nice H is harder than the d*ck H was, for sure, for all the reasons you say above. I've been doing it for awhile now. It s*cks. It is easier to have the anger to hold onto and the a**hole behaviors to remind yourself that you are better off without him anyway.
All I can say is... stay strong. As you've said to me, you'll know when enough is enough and you're ready to take that next (maybe necessary) step of him walking. And remember he is likely really confused too, his leaning into the family could be relief that you seem cool with the current situation *or* could be because he is truly missing the family and wants to spend time together. All a big mind f**k and not really worth going down the rabbit hole.
What can you do for YOU during this time?
Funny my H would say similar things about him not being here in the future. He would be cooking and telling the boys that they need to learn xyz so they know how to do it when he’s not around. He’s said stuff like that several times, as if he is either 1. going to be dead or 2. be outta our lives for good.
You might be confused about his behavior, but it sounds like he is even more confused about it himself. That’s what I think about my H too. I keep wanting to help him wipe his fogged up lenses for him, so that maybe he has chance of coming out of this....but I think I can’t, I think we LBS can’t, because only they can get out of the quicksand themselves.
I’ve written a few letters in the beginning thinking that I’d want to show H. Some were about me, some were about him. I’m glad I never did. Because with time my mentality has changed and I’m still seeing things differently or more clearly. And with time I also feel more strongly that he would not be receptive to anything from me. Not that he would be offended or anything, I think things would just get lost somewhere and my good intentions would not make it to his brain.
I know I’m my gut he’s going to move out. He’s convinced he’s going to go. Honestly it’s probably best for both of us if he does. I could really use a little break from the push pull. I don’t know if both of us accepting him going is relieving some of the pressure and we’re just finally relaxing around each other. I don’t know if he feels because I’m so zen about whatever that he thinks we’re bffs or friends who used to have benefits. I’m trying not to overthink and try to figure this out but this is getting harder and harder the more things are like they used to be. As heartbroken and lost as I felt when he was cruel and standoffish this is a totally different lost feeling. I don’t feel like I’m drowning any more. I feel relieved at he idea of him going but I still feel the pull so strongly when he smiles and looks at me the way he used to. Even if it’s just for a minute. I wish I knew how to just stop loving him.
i feel exactly this. I feel like H needs to leave in order to break the limbo cycle that we have been entrenched in for so long . I have envisioned myself in a little house, without him, and it feels calm. However, like you , I am so drawn in by him and feel like I am under a spell. I want so much not to love him. And sometimes I don’t know if I do, or whether it’s habit, or fear.
Your H sounds confused, as Wooba says. I’m not a believer in always listening to your gut. The cycle of thoughts driving feelings, feelings driving behviours, behaviours driving thoughts - you can change the cycle. Why do you think he will definitely leave? Is he making plans, is he looking for somewhere? And if he does, it might give you room to breathe clean air. I’m telling myself that if it happens to me, it is not a bad thing for me or H. Keep strong as you are doing great !
I'm just gonna start this with I see the newish IC tomorrow. The old IC has been officially dumped. I thin because I went longer than I usually do between sessions I'm spinning more than usual.
(((wayfarer))) what's your line? When will you stop being friends with him-- when he moves out? That's been my line too, and I know my H doesn't believe me that I'll really stop being his friend if he leaves. (Maybe he does a little, but that is what he is saying to me.)
Do you still feel like he's a little off-- a photocopy of a photocopy?
What can you do for YOU during this time?
If I'm honest with myself I have no idea what my line is here. The line early on for me was if he went and file for a D or we got to the point where he forced me to file a D it wasn't just friendship over. It was scorched earth. You're dead to me kind of over. I think we're still kind of there. However, if/when he goes soon I know that I won't be readily available to him pretty much ever. But I have no idea how to navigate that line especially with him seriously reengaging with the girls and really working to actually co-parent not just tag team parent. He insisted on joining me for parent teacher conferences for D17 even though I said "You don't have to. Did this years before you alone. I can do this." He said "I'm coming, it's fine." And that was the end of it. My daughter needs him in her life. She had a bit of a, we'll go with, break through with me this weekend about it. And a lot of her anger and resentment toward him is that he's kind of been for the lack of a better term neglecting both girls until very recently. Navigating co-parenting with her bio dad is easy. The state gives me his money. He interrupts our lives occasionally, but for the most part I've been mom and dad until H came into the picture. With D15's mother starting to get her life together we/he may not have her full time any more and I don't know how I fit in there. I don't know where the line between cordial and friendship is going to begin and end given our unique circumstances. I don't even know how to begin navigating that.
He still feels off. But more and more like himself. He started as a person who just looked like my H. Then he became a person who is pretending to be my H. I still feel like that, but since the fight he's become so much more like himself. Less pretending. Less like a photocopy of a photocopy. More like the photocopy but no where near as crisp as the original.
I have a lot of plans this week. Partially on purpose due to the holiday, partially because it's just how my calendar worked out. I'm trying to stay busy, and to stay away from him a bit right now, because it seems like he seizes every opportunity that we're home together to be in my space.
I’ve written a few letters in the beginning thinking that I’d want to show H. Some were about me, some were about him. I’m glad I never did. Because with time my mentality has changed and I’m still seeing things differently or more clearly. And with time I also feel more strongly that he would not be receptive to anything from me. Not that he would be offended or anything, I think things would just get lost somewhere and my good intentions would not make it to his brain.
I've written and re-written a letter to him several times. I've written letters to her too. I journal a lot. Not just here. The writing soothes me. There is a version of a letter to him in my head that I would like to give him. I'm hoping at some point I can string the words together in the way I want them to. Where I open my head and my heart, where I don't excuse his behavior but understand. Where I let him know the door is open but I don't know for how long. I don't think he'll be receptive today. But I do think he will be. I think we're getting closer to the point where he wants to know even if he isn't going to do a thing about it. Just to know. Because the fact is my heart doesn't want to let him go, but I have no problem cutting people out of my life and never looking back, and if that's what I need to do I will. He knows that. Hes the kind that always looks back and wonders what if. It's who he is.
I feel exactly this. I feel like H needs to leave in order to break the limbo cycle that we have been entrenched in for so long . I have envisioned myself in a little house, without him, and it feels calm. However, like you, I am so drawn in by him and feel like I am under a spell. I want so much not to love him. And sometimes I don’t know if I do, or whether it’s habit, or fear.
Your H sounds confused, as Wooba says. I’m not a believer in always listening to your gut. The cycle of thoughts driving feelings, feelings driving behviours, behaviours driving thoughts - you can change the cycle. Why do you think he will definitely leave? Is he making plans, is he looking for somewhere? And if he does, it might give you room to breathe clean air. I’m telling myself that if it happens to me, it is not a bad thing for me or H. Keep strong as you are doing great !
I can tell you with certainty in my case my love for this man isn't fear or habit. His love isn't comfort. Frankly loving him hurts like h3ll. He might have been lying when he said I was the love of his life but I wasn't. Someday maybe I'll get over him. But I don't know that I'll ever get over us, because what we had wasn't perfect, but it was pretty great.
I see that life without him too. It is calmer. It's quieter. But it's emptier too. Not so much like crater but more like an odd middle piece in a 500 piece puzzle. Like you know exactly what should be there, but it's just not and there isn't much you can do to fix it.
I know he's confused. I also know OW doesn't know he's sitting and watching movies with me that he asks me to pick. Or that he is coming to parent teacher conferences. Or that he still walks around me in his underwear. Or that he likes to chat before we go our separate ways at night, and likes to make sure we say goodnight.
As far as moving out goes. I'm a person who even though I'm highly logical tends to run on intuition. I feel my way through people and relationships. Mostly because my intuition has taught me to believe what I feel before I believe what's being presented to me. That hasn't failed me yet. He hasn't said he's looking at places yet, but he's started to bring things home to pack. No packing though. I don't know if his April 1 date is going to be the actual day but he'll go. I don't know how to explain how I know. I just know him. He's made his mind up about it. Even if he lies awake the night before he moves thinking it's all a huge mistake he'll still go. And I do stand by him leaving is probably best for both of us. I need some time on my own to decompress. I don't know how he could possibly miss me when under my roof he's trying to keep me as much in his life as I'll allow. He and I don't have a chance of coming out the other side of this unless he goes. He needs to chase this happiness he thinks is out there. He needs to fall on his butt doing so or there will never be any kind of reconciling. As the fog is lifting a tad it hasn't lifted far enough to pull him out of limerence only far enough to let him see I'm not the villain he was trying to make me. He won't see the extent of it's me(him) not you(me) until he's alone on a Sunday night.
Hi Wayfarer,
I don't know where the line between cordial and friendship is going to begin and end given our unique circumstances. I don't even know how to begin navigating that.
This is hard. I don't have any answer. i have thought about this a lot too, though. It seems like in reading through other threads where people are in this stage, a lot of times they're either super cordial, maybe too friendly and the WS (seems like usually WHs) at least externally seems fine with that level of interaction, or text-only and the WS is annoyed and picking fights.
I have a lot of plans this week. Partially on purpose due to the holiday, partially because it's just how my calendar worked out. I'm trying to stay busy, and to stay away from him a bit right now, because it seems like he seizes every opportunity that we're home together to be in my space.
This is terrific-- I'm really glad to hear it. My guess is by the end of the week you'll be feeling a bit better with this new normal, more settled and focused on you, less on how he is knocking you off balance. I have no doubt you will reach your new plane of detachment soon-- it just isn't a straight line, especially when your H's behavior keeps changing. Also, maybe doubling down where you can on being there for the girls, since they need it too, maybe especially your biological daughter since she must be feeling really scared and awful right now about what the future might hold since he's become such an important piece of her life too. (That makes me mad on her behalf, honestly.)
I don't know how to explain how I know. I just know him. He's made his mind up about it. Even if he lies awake the night before he moves thinking it's all a huge mistake he'll still go. And I do stand by him leaving is probably best for both of us. I need some time on my own to decompress. I don't know how he could possibly miss me when under my roof he's trying to keep me as much in his life as I'll allow. He and I don't have a chance of coming out the other side of this unless he goes. He needs to chase this happiness he thinks is out there. He needs to fall on his butt doing so or there will never be any kind of reconciling. As the fog is lifting a tad it hasn't lifted far enough to pull him out of limerence only far enough to let him see I'm not the villain he was trying to make me. He won't see the extent of it's me(him) not you(me) until he's alone on a Sunday night.
As a fellow recovering control freak
my default would be to spend some time thinking about what that situation might look like, to prepare myself for it coming and not be caught off guard. I don't know if that is the right move, for you or for me. But to the extent you feel it is inevitable, maybe being secure with your own responses when the time comes will be helpful. I know there are financial considerations too that make both that timing less than ideal but also sooner even less so, so it isn't like you could accelerate anything. Can you take the girls away for a girls weekend or something, just the three of you having fun for some breathing room? It might also help his D to reaffirm you and your D will always be family for her no matter what.
This is hard. I don't have any answer. i have thought about this a lot too, though. It seems like in reading through other threads where people are in this stage, a lot of times they're either super cordial, maybe too friendly and the WS (seems like usually WHs) at least externally seems fine with that level of interaction, or text-only and the WS is annoyed and picking fights.
I don't know even know what stage we're in at this point. We're already past text only and picking fights. He literally will follow me around the house to talk to me like when one of the girls desperately wants to tell me something about school. He's been getting really liberal with showing me his phone. Honestly his behavior prior to "I'm moving out" and the I'm moving out fight was very standoffish or completely absent. He before wouldn't even be in the same room as me unless he was forced to. He was gone more before than he is now. Same thing about the way he talks to me. He jokes. He flirts. He's kind. Before is was vitriol or silence. That's its. He's changed the narrative too. In a month's time we went from I never really loved you to of course I loved you. I still care about you, that's why I worry about you. And gets teary eyed when I tell him him looking me in the eye and saying he never loved me was by far worse than the affair. I don't think we were really in limbo before. I think he was sure he was leaving because I was the devil and our marriage was a sham. I think we finally entered actually limbo now. And it's awful.
This is terrific-- I'm really glad to hear it. My guess is by the end of the week you'll be feeling a bit better with this new normal, more settled and focused on you, less on how he is knocking you off balance. I have no doubt you will reach your new plane of detachment soon-- it just isn't a straight line, especially when your H's behavior keeps changing. Also, maybe doubling down where you can on being there for the girls, since they need it too, maybe especially your biological daughter since she must be feeling really scared and awful right now about what the future might hold since he's become such an important piece of her life too. (That makes me mad on her behalf, honestly.)
Its one of the things that brings me to tears in front of him. Not much else does. But her and how heart broken she is that gets me no matter how much I don't want him to see me cry. I do usually get a hold of this with in a week or so but he keeps changing the game on me so fast I'm struggling to cope. But I'll get there eventually.
As a fellow recovering control freak
my default would be to spend some time thinking about what that situation might look like, to prepare myself for it coming and not be caught off guard. I don't know if that is the right move, for you or for me. But to the extent you feel it is inevitable, maybe being secure with your own responses when the time comes will be helpful. I know there are financial considerations too that make both that timing less than ideal but also sooner even less so, so it isn't like you could accelerate anything. Can you take the girls away for a girls weekend or something, just the three of you having fun for some breathing room? It might also help his D to reaffirm you and your D will always be family for her no matter what.
I am prepared. I should say we D17 and me are prepared. D15 is too. She's been reconnecting with her mom a lot. I think her plan is to err more to placement with her mom until things settle down with her dad. I've sat down and worked out my budget at least within a range because I have no idea what auto insurance and a few other things are going to look like when we separate. D17 and I made plans about redecorating our rooms, and maybe a few other home projects, that I've told her her BF will need to help with because she's just not strong enough to lift some things. I've continued cleaning and organizing and I have basic idea of what I'm willing to part with for him to set up his new household in just about every room of the house. I repacked all of the the things in the basement so that his and D15's things are in separate totes. I'm not hoping for a self fulfilling prophecy here, I'm just unwilling to be "caught off guard" like you said. As far as the trip it's something I considered, but I think I'd rather do it this summer when we are actually in separate households.
I'm just getting to the point where this is all so exhausting. I just want a stiff drink and a nap. And to look at him and say, I'm not going anywhere so if you change your mind you know where to find me.
Hi, wayfarer. It really sounds like you are doing all you can do to take care of yourself now, and to prepare for one possible future. I hear you on the need for a stiff drink and a nap! I feel like I need several straight days of napping, staring at TV, napping, staring at TV. Just no brain work or life work or interaction with anyone, no expectations at all.
I hope the IC you're seeing today is much more helpful for you than the first one.
So my IC appointment is actually tomorrow morning. I have so much booked this week that I mixed my days up. But I have the rage room booked for me and my girls tomorrow. I'll have lunch with them since they are off school, then rage room. Then later mani/pedis with my best friend. And dinner and drinks at her house since I can walk home, lol. Think I'm saving that bath and bottle of wine for Saturday night when I know he'll be with OW.
It was Tuesday so he obviously was with OW last night, but woke me up this morning before he left to talk about D15s doc appointment on Friday. And just messaged me about dinner tonight. People who stand for years, and watch their spouses spin like this for years my hat's off to you. I still love him against my better judgement, but god I wish he'd get out of my space. I'm starting to seriously miss not speaking at all. I had breathing room. His nights out with OW are so calm and quiet. I'm getting to the point where this April move out date feels more and more relieving. I just need a break. He needs to work out his confusion and crisis in his own space instead of like on top of me. The more he pulls towards his old life, the more annoyed I'm getting with him. I thought I would be elated, and rush to lap up any and all attention he's throwing our way. I mean I'm happy for our girls that he's swinging back around to them. But this jokey, buddy buddy stuff with me I'm not exactly elated about. I would really like to be in a place to have more control over my interactions with him. Our house is so small it's hard to escape him. And now that he's decided I'm not some evil vindictive wife I'm being barraged with small talk.
Like waking me up before he went to work. Or Monday night after my dance class he stood out side the main bath while I did a face mask and dealt with my crazy hair, making jokes. I was standing there bra less, green faced, and pinappling my hair in a scrunchie and thinking, Why? Why are we doing this? Acting like things are the way they were? When you're going to go lay on the couch and talk to her, and I'm going to fall asleep to ocean sounds alone? And why can you stand there and make jokes while I look like Shrek but when I go out looking good as h3ll you won't even lift your eyes? And conversely make sure I acknowledge you before you leave so I know that you'll come home that night or on the rare occasion not? I realize how one sided standing is. I know that waiting on them to come back to reality is an arduous journey and there's very little reassurance in it until you find the end. And through it all I've made huge strides finding myself again, but my old self wants to tell him to stfu and go talk to his gf if he wants to chat. It's getting harder and harder to get her to quiet down and acquiesce the much more zen grown up version of myself.I don't know. I think I'm just hitting another grief phase, maybe revisiting anger. Or maybe it was because I was woken up at 5:30am for absolutely no reason. Who knows?
Hi Wayfarer,
First of all... Ugh. the 5:30 unnecessary wake up. That would infuriate me. My H used to kiss me goodbye if he had to leave really early when I was still sleeping, which would inevitably wake me up and then I couldn't go back to sleep and would be so, so pissed at him. Ha. Now I feel kind of guilty about that.
So a few thoughts-- first, your week plans sound awesome. yay! second, I totally hear you on the annoyance that he's leaning back in in so many ways except that giant most important one. I think it is OK to be annoyed and to let your old self shine through here. How can you not let yourself be in those situations where he's being buddy-buddy and all up in your space? Some ideas I had when reading through your last post include:
- close the door to the bathroom. Don't give him that access-- you deserve to face mask in peace. (This is something I've done too for the same reason. And I know he's like WHAT is she doing in there??)
- get out of the house on the nights you know he'll be there. He can make dinner for the girls or his bacon sandwiches or whatever. If you haven't read through Caligirl's thread you might... she was the MASTER at wafting out the door all dolled up as soon as her H walked in. I know you've done that too and it might be a good time to amp that back up, both for DBing purposes (you know you got pretty strong reactions to that in the past) and so you don't need to put yourself in a position where you feel annoyed and resentful that he's cake-eating. Also, he sees you. He's just pretending not to look.
- are there other ways you can retreat when he's in the house so it is harder for him to engage? Listening to a podcast with your headphones in is always a good one.
I guess generally-- if you don't feel like engaging with him in the buddy-buddy stuff, then don't. Then when you do, like having a family dinner with all four of you-- relax and have fun. Same if he calls you to vent. If you're up for it and want to listen, do it. If you don't, let it go to VM and he can be in a bad mood when he gets to OW's house. You get to decide exactly how much of the friend Wayfarer he gets right now, and you are under no obligation to be his friend if you don't feel good about it. (I know this sounds weird coming from me but for the most part I *can* relax and have fun with H and not feel annoyed about it. When I do feel angry or resentful, I simply don't engage.)
Same if he calls you to vent. If you're up for it and want to listen, do it. If you don't, let it go to VM and he can be in a bad mood when he gets to OW's house. You get to decide exactly how much of the friend Wayfarer he gets right now, and you are under no obligation to be his friend if you don't feel good about it.
may's advice here immediately made me think of your comment on wooba's thread, wayfarer. If you're not always available to vent to, maybe he won't be able to walk into OW's house in complete fantasy mode, having left all his "real-world" worries with you. Too bad! But, yes, I agree that you should decide based on what you're up for. You can control how you respond when he's hoping to vent or come at you with more small talk.
Rage room
and mani/pedis! I love it! It's like you're hitting the full spectrum of self-care/GAL there.
How'd your IC appointment go, wayfarer? And the rage room and mani-pedis and dinner and drinks? Hope it was all amazing and you were able to get some stuff off your chest in the morning and then just relax and enjoy your girls and your time with your friend. Hugs.
I legit had soo much on my calendar this week between work and life that I realized I misspoke. Actual valentines is rage room and mani pedi day.
It’s been weird couple of days so I haven’t been keeping up with my mess. H followed me around again last night wanted to talk about a friend making passive aggressive posts on social media. We had a long discussion about how I agree it’s inappropriate but we had a small tiff as to why. He was of the belief that our problems are our problems. I kindly informed him he put OUR friends in a position to pick sides. He wants to be out in public with OW most of his friends have removed me from social media so as not to out him like I don’t know or maybe it’s a protecting me thing whatever it maybe. But my friends can see everything he’s doing. I asked What did you think would happen? You put our “problems” on display, people make decisions. I said I asked you to be discreet for this exact reason. I said I’d talk to her because you are right it’s inappropriate but you need to get your head out of the sand and just because in this house we’ve come to find a peace recently literally no one else has and this effects more than us in these 4 walls. And you need to realize actions have a ripple effect. He said he hadn’t thought about things like that. He would appreciate if it would stop though. He shifted gears quickly and wanted to know what my plans with the girls were for valentines because he wanted to take them to dinner. Small talk the rest of the night.
IC went great. She’s so fantastic. And deals in the realm of reality. Old IC kept making boundary suggestions where the end point was me kicking him out and even though she knew my history with law and that I knew everyone’s rights including I don’t have the power to remove a person on the lease she wouldn’t back pedal. I brought that up when new IC asked why I left and she assured me that she’s not a lawyer but she specializes in couples so she know the legalities broadly and would never suggest things that are actually hollow threats. We talked about goals. Caught her up to speed. Everything about this just feels better.
Tonight H and I went to parent teacher conferences for D17. A few awkward silences in the car but other than that was super normal. He picked up desserts for all of us at the bake sale while I talked with another mom. Jokes, people watching, talking to D17 together when we got home. H was little cold and crabby compared to yesterday strangely. But since he’s been asleep in the recliner since 7:30pm I’m guessing it wasn’t me. His phone is buzzing away and he’s sleeping right through it. Makes me smile because let’s be real as above it all as I want to be I’m never going to fully shake that little bit of petty.
I’m super ready for this weekend and just a whole crap ton of me time.
I was standing there bra less, green faced, and pinappling my hair in a scrunchie and thinking, Why? Why are we doing this? Acting like things are the way they were? When you're going to go lay on the couch and talk to her, and I'm going to fall asleep to ocean sounds alone? And why can you stand there and make jokes while I look like Shrek but when I go out looking good as h3ll you won't even lift your eyes?
LOL. You crack me up. I’m telling you.....I’m way past the “show him you best and leave him wondering what you’re up to” kind of DBing. I don’t give two sh1ts about what he thinks of me now. Some days I like to be pretty, some days I just don’t care. But once in awhile I will be petty and wear something I know is irresistible to him but he can’t do anything. Like our last episode. He was talking D but I knew he was checking me out. In the end he couldn’t help it but to hug me by my waist from behind. In return, I handed him a bag of trash to take out on his way out.
The small talk- I still enjoy somewhat of our small talk when it doesn’t loop back to craziness. I feel a sight inauthenticity, but I choose to receive it as a positive interaction. Not towards recon or anything, just sort of having a nice chat with a neighbor kind of thing. I welcome the few mins of pleasantry. But just like talking to a neighbor, sometimes I rather be left alone. And you can find ways to politely exit the conversation just as you’d with your neighbor.
Yay! That is so fantastic.
His phone is buzzing away and he’s sleeping right through it. Makes me smile because let’s be real as above it all as I want to be I’m never going to fully shake that little bit of petty./quote]
Bahahahaha. I got a huge kick out of this.
[quote=wayfarer]I’m super ready for this weekend and just a whole crap ton of me time.
So glad to hear it and happy friday! Have an an amazing time with the girls. I wanna hear all about the rage room... I don't think we have any in my city. it is basically like the scene in Office Space with the copy machine, right?
Sending love and good vibes all weekend!!
Great news about the new IC. Think of that extra energy you won't have to spend feeling like you're pushing back against her. And enjoy the rage room and mani/pedi, Wayfarer! Even better that they're happening today.
WF,
Happy Vday! OMG I'm so jelly about the rage room. I am such a pacifist in my everyday life and the idea of having a great time just smashing things to bits sounds so appealing. I've heard going on a hike and screaming into a canyon or off a mountaintop can also be pretty cathartic. Have a great time with your weekend and I'm happy to read about the new IC.
KG
Rage room was amazing. But I had been there before when my mom passed and couldn’t go to the funeral due to her “amazing”H. D15 recently broke up with her BF so she loooovvved it. D17 my angry child. Protestor, feminist just generally all around antiestablishment person was so dainty in there I almost died of laughter. She didn’t want to break anything. She also couldn’t lift the sledgehammer. I probably scared the girls a bit. I don’t think I realized how much anger I had pent up. I think I need to hit the batting cages again. We had a lovely lunch. And there was a chocolatier 2 doors from the rage room. Spent way too much on fancy chocolate for the girls and me. But all around lovely.
H bought the girls V-day presents and got them cards. Took them out to dinner while I was out for the mani pedi. We are all watching a Disney movie as a family right now. I’m about a half a bottle of rosè deep. Oh H got food poisoning. But the girls are fine so all in all other than I’m likely sleeping on the couch because it’s no where near a bathroom it’s been a great night. This right here is how I know there’s a higher power watching over us. There is no better karma than this guy feeling like he’s dying today while I feel like Wonder Woman
Bahhahahaha. Oh that's good wayfarer. I like it.
Ever try axe throwing? It's the new rage. I want to go soooo badly.
Also, I am so totally your D17. I was that protester, angsty feminist teen (still am - just older!!! Proudly!) but also couldn't do anything in the physical realm.
I'm not super strong, but I can own my body a bit better now that I'm older. But much respect to D17 because she's my people.
Much respect to you too for all you do for your OWN life.
I have also done axe throwing, in heels at that. While I loved it it’s a much less controlled environment than a rage room. The axes have a good chance of bouncing back at you. That is honestly terrifying. Add drinking and dear lord I’m not sure how more people haven’t died or ended up in the ER. You do sound a lot like a grown up version of my kiddo. Minus the cooking. She’s very artsy but her attention span isn’t long enough for cooking. She’ll make a box brownie mix to just lick the spatula though..lol
It sounds like you had an amazing day! I get nervous just watching the axe throwing thing on video. What if someone accidentally drops the axe before throwing it out?? I can’t imagine how much liability insurance those kinds of places have.
And yup, I do not feel bad one bit for your H’s food poisoning. He’ll live!!
Well tonight is definitely going to be wine and bath night. My god. We were in the house alone with no kids for hours. I guess technically we still are. First time since the EA started. I was trying to get some things done around the house and he called me back into the living room to ask me a question. We ended up talking for a long time. He initiated an R talk after a conversation we had about the girls. We talked about a lot of things. We first talked about what the future in two households is going to look like. He brought up that OW may move in in June as her lease is up then. Was weirdly encouraging about me online dating. And then things kinda shifted into what happened with us and how did we get here. By the end of the conversation he pulled my legs on to his and started rubbing them and my feet. We were still talking and I haven’t been touched in months. As much as my brain was screaming it was so nice to be touched again I just let it happen. It stopped at that. But I can see how easily LBS slip back in to bed with the WS now.
Don’t worry. I don’t think he’s going to leave OW anytime soon. Nor am I reading into this as some kind of covert message that he wants me. The reality is and I know this now he does want me. And he wants her. Just as much as he wants his old life and this new one. I know he’s just as confused as ever. All this really does is confirm for me that he is confused. And that he seems to sense detachment like a blood hound and tries one more behavior that’ll make me question my sanity and force me into a place where I have to remind myself that there’s no use analyzing any of it. We are truly in limbo now and I have a feeling we probably will be in June in two separate households. Sigh....
Wayfarer,
Holy smokes. What a crazy couple of days! He totally deserved the food poisoning.
he seems to sense detachment like a blood hound and tries one more behavior that’ll make me question my sanity and force me into a place where I have to remind myself that there’s no use analyzing any of it. We are truly in limbo now and I have a feeling we probably will be in June in two separate households. Sigh....
First off, HOW do they do that? I love how you put that, sensing detachment like a bloodhound and then doing something different to knock you off your game. I don't believe it is deliberate but is still crazy-making for you.
It does seem like he's really, really confused. I also think there is something to the WH feeling like he's started down a path and it is really difficult to stray from it, because (among other things) he's probably terrified that the damage he's done to your R is irreparable. Did you share any of your thoughts in the R talk or was it mostly validating? He still thinks you're over him?
Well tonight is definitely going to be wine and bath night.
Good... really glad you already had this planned out for tonight.
Hey May,
First off, HOW do they do that? I love how you put that, sensing detachment like a bloodhound and then doing something different to knock you off your game. I don't believe it is deliberate but is still crazy-making for you.
I think for some WS it is deliberate but with my H I don’t know that it is. I don’t know that his EQ is high enough to be emotionally manipulative. I think it’s more like testing how much I’ll let him in. But yes definitely crazy making.
It does seem like he's really, really confused. I also think there is something to the WH feeling like he's started down a path and it is really difficult to stray from it, because (among other things) he's probably terrified that the damage he's done to your R is irreparable. Did you share any of your thoughts in the R talk or was it mostly validating? He still thinks you're over him?
I think the path thing definitely has some merit to it. But it got a little contentious when I said he picked the path with her because it’s just easier. He said that he didn’t feel that way. That picking me would’ve been easier because of the comfort factor and less people hurt. And then I explained why I felt the way I did. That everything with her is new and shiny and it’s all possibilities. It also has no depth or breadth so it’s just figure it out and hope for the best. Staying with me means work. Digging deep and therapy. And probably a marriage retreat. And apologies to a number of people. Starting from scratch with this baggage like an albatross until we start making some serious progress. All things he hates. Emotional work, open communication and complicated situations to navigate.
I shared a lot. He shared a lot. But I have no idea what he thinks as far as a chance at saving this or if I’m over him. Every time we have these talks I go a little anti DB. I tell him I’m still in love with him. But not like a sobbing “I love you.” He usually says something accusatory and I put it in there as push back. Like the big fight he said I liked to see him suffer and said “No you don’t love me. I still love you. I’d never want to see you suffer.” This time when talking about things in our relationship in the past that lead up to this he accused me of a few things. I’m not perfect he was right about a couple I validated and apologized but he also accused me of belittling him based on my education and him not having the same level. When I asked for concrete examples he had none. So I asked if maybe his feelings on that weren’t 100% my behavior and maybe some of his own insecurities. And maybe some hang over from me being the devil in his head for almost 3 months. And I said “I loved and love you exactly as you are. I’d never intentionally belittled you or try to make you feel beneath me.” I won’t ever tell him I plan to stand until I can’t. I don’t know how to say I still want to make this work if you want to with out coming off needy. But I think I’m being pretty clear I’m not over him.
Hey Wooba,
I saw this and smiled so wide.
LOL. You crack me up. I’m telling you.....I’m way past the “show him you best and leave him wondering what you’re up to” kind of DBing. I don’t give two sh1ts about what he thinks of me now. Some days I like to be pretty, some days I just don’t care. But once in awhile I will be petty and wear something I know is irresistible to him but he can’t do anything. Like our last episode. He was talking D but I knew he was checking me out. In the end he couldn’t help it but to hug me by my waist from behind. In return, I handed him a bag of trash to take out on his way out.
I'm a snarky word I can say on here with out getting censored so when that comes across on here, I really do feel like I'm close to you guys. And I refuse to do the best version of me with every interaction thing. Absolutely refuse. It's been decided that our home is going to MY home. And I will not be a display item in my home 24/7. I've been sick twice through this. I've been hung over a lot more than that. And I'm sorry but he's seen me after surgery and before, during and after physical intimacy. Screw that. I'm not pretending all of that didn't happen. I'm going to wear sweat pants and no make up and my hair is going to be it's crazy self. 80% of me looking good around him is being petty. And that you feel the same way, that's how I know you're my people
It sounds like you had an amazing day! I get nervous just watching the ax throwing thing on video. What if someone accidentally drops the ax before throwing it out?? I can’t imagine how much liability insurance those kinds of places have.
And yup, I do not feel bad one bit for your H’s food poisoning. He’ll live!!
He did live and and wondering if it's fortunate or unfortunate considering I'm still the beneficiary on his policy...lol.
As far as the ax throwing, part of the reason the axes tend to bounce back is because they aren't any where near as sharp as you would think. They aren't like about to split a 1/2 cord of wood sharp. Or like camping hatchet sharp. They are more like a pioneer who just split a cord of wood and can't find his whetstone sharp. Also because of the shape they tend to fall heavy side of the head first so more likely broken toe than missing toe. The liability thing. No clue what those ax places are paying and like I said where I live it also comes in a drinking environment so I'm guessing pretty high. But the rage room guy and I had a nice chat while the girls were going. He has $2 million in liability with 2 rage rooms running. And lot of rules. 1 person per room at a time. You have to go in in full gear. He uses painters jumpsuits, like a breathable and disposable head sock situation for your exposed head and neck, a full face clear protective visor, and work gloves, and you have to go in in closed toed shoes. That one is an ax throwing rule too. But in comparison bouncy houses have to have $1 million in liability so I have no idea what an appropriate range actually is.
I really hope you had an all over decent weekend wooba
So after the ridiculously long R talk on Saturday things have only gotten more strange. H started texting me like a lot. Even for him. A lot. He was out with OW that night and was texting me. Granted it was about the kids, and making sure I got home safe. But still that's new.
Part of our R convo I brought up something Kristin G and I had talked about where I've been withholding things. like memes, shows, movies, songs,etc. that I thought he'd like because I didn't feel like he was my friend any more and frankly that he didn't deserve them. He was actually kinda hurt by that so I offered to let him have one thing every other day, if he deserves it, wink, wink. Seriously this seduction game crap is really awful and I didn't know that we'd ever be at a point where I thought I'd need to play it. Nor did I think this flirty BS would have any effect on him whatsoever. I also really just didn't want to do it. Keeping him on the line is way more work than a nearly 37 year old married person should have to do...lol.
Saturday was just a lot for me so yesterday I basically ignored him. I sent him nothing, I didn't say much in person. I laid in my bed without saying good night. So what does he do, he sent me a funny meme, and we texted each other funny flirty BS while he was laying on the couch and I was laying in our (my) bed for over an hour. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing here. Frankly I don't know wth I'm doing. I don't know if I'm supposed to lean into this. Or pull away. If this is going to blow up in my face or if this is what he's looking for. Lord knows this is what I'm looking for, I missed this. And I'm sorry, and I know it's childish, but if he's laying there texting me he isn't laying there rapid fire texting her. And I know I shouldn't be competing with her. But that type A is hard to break even in this situation. Muffin shop is still closed until further notice this isn't enough to pry that door open again. But I do like feeling like I have at least a little pull in the relationship again vs him doing the pulling or us existing in our separate corners at all times. I just don't want to make things worse and I have no idea how to gauge that.
Lol Wayfarer your posts crack me up! I’m sure if I was a guy I would adore you for your sense of humour!! That’s what I love about my R with H, in the face of all this adversity, we can still crack jokes through the tears, and laugh about the mess we are in.
I have no words of wisdom how you handle the current sitch. I feel like I am a complete failure at the DBing, however, while you have a little control , to keep hold of it, I would say back off a little now, if he texts, don’t reply straight away, act flirty but without coming on to him. And yes totally agree about keeping the shop closed!
Hey May,
I think the path thing definitely has some merit to it. But it got a little contentious when I said he picked the path with her because it’s just easier. He said that he didn’t feel that way. That picking me would’ve been easier because of the comfort factor and less people hurt. And then I explained why I felt the way I did. That everything with her is new and shiny and it’s all possibilities. It also has no depth or breadth so it’s just figure it out and hope for the best. Staying with me means work. Digging deep and therapy. And probably a marriage retreat. And apologies to a number of people. Starting from scratch with this baggage like an albatross until we start making some serious progress. All things he hates. Emotional work, open communication and complicated situations to navigate.
You never know what the AP and H are talking about either. I have had this convo what feels like 100 times with WW. Her AP felt that staying with me would be the easiest choice because we have a comfortable life together and I'm more financially stable. At one point, it almost felt like WW was choosing the more difficult journey just to prove she could do it (ego?). She has never needed me or the financial stability but for whatever reason the "path" controversy in her head made her feel as though she needed to prove it. H may have seemed contentious because of the same reasons (or variations of the same). All you can do while he's going back and forth thinking all of it through is work on your own sanity and peace of mind. Listen, don't grasp onto anything he says, and work on becoming the best WF for WF.
You're in for a long ride with H figuring out what he wants out of life, but either outcome, you've got this!
KG
You never know what the AP and H are talking about either. I have had this convo what feels like 100 times with WW. Her AP felt that staying with me would be the easiest choice because we have a comfortable life together and I'm more financially stable. At one point, it almost felt like WW was choosing the more difficult journey just to prove she could do it (ego?). She has never needed me or the financial stability but for whatever reason the "path" controversy in her head made her feel as though she needed to prove it. H may have seemed contentious because of the same reasons (or variations of the same). All you can do while he's going back and forth thinking all of it through is work on your own sanity and peace of mind. Listen, don't grasp onto anything he says, and work on becoming the best WF for WF.
You're in for a long ride with H figuring out what he wants out of life, but either outcome, you've got this!
KG
You're right, I have no idea what they are talking about unless he let's me in. Or he does some stupid stuff around the girls and they immediately spill the beans. But he said OW was the more difficult route because they were both with other people. Totally not DBing and not validating at all I just laughed and said are you serious right now? You picked her BECAUSE she was with someone else. It gave both of you geniuses an easy out at any time. Then when you two decided to just keep going down the rabbit hole together you decided to wholly reject me and our marriage only after she dumped her BF. She made the decision for you.Please tell me how that was the harder route? He stared at me for a bit and pushed me on why I thought him being with me was the harder route for him to move on. The worst part of all these R talks on top of each other is it makes it so painfully obvious to me how well I know him and how I don't know if he ever really knew me at all.
He is on this I have to move out and she's probably moving in in June thing not because of pride or ego necessarily. It's out of stubbornness or maybe even ignorance. I don't know. He's the type that when he makes a decision he's there. That's it. If it fails it fails. He'll deal with the fall out later. Doesn't matter if he has a bad feeling. Doesn't matter if people tell him it's a horrible idea. Even though he is nearing 40 will not learn from thinking things through or people having lived through what ever it is and giving him advice. He has to make the mistake and learn it himself. It's why giving him the time and space for this mess has been easy. It's why I keep saying he'll go, and I'm ok with it. He will go. And I don't know if he'll learn in a month or 2 or 2 years.It's just who he is. And given where he's at 6 weeks from move out he will walk the line between me and her for the next 6 weeks and who knows how long after until reality slaps him directly in the face.
Lol Wayfarer your posts crack me up! I’m sure if I was a guy I would adore you for your sense of humour!! That’s what I love about my R with H, in the face of all this adversity, we can still crack jokes through the tears, and laugh about the mess we are in.
I have no words of wisdom how you handle the current sitch. I feel like I am a complete failure at the DBing, however, while you have a little control , to keep hold of it, I would say back off a little now, if he texts, don’t reply straight away, act flirty but without coming on to him. And yes totally agree about keeping the shop closed!
Pommy my dear, you've had a rough couple of days. And you aren't a total puddle of emotional goo on the floor (even if you did fall apart for a little bit). I'd say that's pretty successful DBing.
We have both made a lot of jokes but only recently since he started acting more like himself again and gave me room to let my guard down a bit. Humor has been the center of our relationship even when we were just friends. We have a very similar sense of humor. It makes this mess all the easier when I feel like I'm losing my whole life, or my mind.
I'm thinking about you Pommy. I hope you know that.
I'm going to wear sweat pants and no make up and my hair is going to be it's crazy self. 80% of me looking good around him is being petty. And that you feel the same way, that's how I know you're my people
How else are we gonna have some fun with our dear Hs? I will be mature and not be vengeful, but I WILL be petty. Lol!!
Part of our R convo I brought up something Kristin G and I had talked about where I've been withholding things. like memes, shows, movies, songs,etc. that I thought he'd like because I didn't feel like he was my friend any more and frankly that he didn't deserve them. He was actually kinda hurt by that so I offered to let him have one thing every other day, if he deserves it, wink, wink.
He was hurt by THAT?? Wth. This is just weird. Of course he doesn’t deserve your friendliness. But you do what you do because you’re in control of it. Don’t give in to his pity party though. Your H sounds like he still has a lot of growing up to do.
Wayfarer, one thing I absolutely love about you is your humor. Your H probably misses that too. And that’s nothing a meme/video could replace. And I agree with you that I hate playing the game too. But one thing I also realized through all this is that it’s all part of human nature. You don’t want get too comfortable and you don’t want H to get too comfortable. Not that you have to go all in and do the whole seduction crap, but sometimes just little things to keep the prize far away enough might be the key (not talking about just sex here). And sometimes you gotta dangle the prize right in front of them as a reminder. In this case, is the kind of enjoyment he gets only when he’s with you.
He was hurt by THAT?? Wth. This is just weird. Of course he doesn’t deserve your friendliness. But you do what you do because you’re in control of it. Don’t give in to his pity party though. Your H sounds like he still has a lot of growing up to do.
He is an enormous people pleaser. When I say he wants everyone to like him and find him entertaining and engaging I'm not kidding. A huge part of the reason he picked me years ago and was able to be with me as long as he had vs. what he normal went for is while I didn't mind stroking his ego I absolutely refused to gas him up when he didn't deserve it. When he wasn't funny I'd say it. When he was rude I'd say it. When he was thoughtless or unkind I'd say it. Even in the early days. He is a funny, intelligent, kind guy, most of the time. But he has the capability (clearly given our circumstances) to be hopelessly self involved and self indulgent. He can make jokes at other peoples expense and because 10 other people are laughing that 1 person, the butt of the joke, their feelings aren't considered. He lives his life on social media because he lives for those likes. He will sometimes do kind things so he can post about it. He likes getting claps for being a good dad and will fake the good dad thing on social media so he can feel like he is being an amazing dad when's he's being a sh1t one. A lot of the conversations we've had since all of this started has circled around how he is never good enough for me and he doesn't think he ever will be. I'm not a nagger by nature. The nature of our relationship has always been if that's what you want to do, do it. You're an adult. But my disappointment in him is/was felt by him like a child when a parent is disappointed. He is one of the most insecure people I've ever met in my life. The idea that I was so hurt by what he's done that not only did I go entire weeks here or there without even speaking to him, that I was willing to sacrifice our friendship and kept things away from him I know he'd like just because I felt he didn't deserve it was an enormous blow not only to his ego but a slap in the face of how badly he really had hurt me. He didn't want to hear that. He didn't want to know that. And yeah, he does, he has a lot of growing up to do. It's why so many people thought I was good for him. He had no choice but to be a grown up around me. I wouldn't tolerate any less. Until I had no choice in the matter any more.
Wayfarer, one thing I absolutely love about you is your humor. Your H probably misses that too. And that’s nothing a meme/video could replace. And I agree with you that I hate playing the game too. But one thing I also realized through all this is that it’s all part of human nature. You don’t want get too comfortable and you don’t want H to get too comfortable. Not that you have to go all in and do the whole seduction crap, but sometimes just little things to keep the prize far away enough might be the key (not talking about just sex here). And sometimes you gotta dangle the prize right in front of them as a reminder. In this case, is the kind of enjoyment he gets only when he’s with you.
That's where I'm at at this point. R2C got my wheels turning about the seduction things when H made a comment about my body for the first time. That was the first time I realized H's fog was lifting just enough that he could see me as attractive. Up until that point he made it pretty clear I was either a cloven foot animal or basically his sister or some kind of minotaur with boobs.So I started reading up on seduction. Like you said, wooba, I plan to dangle that carrot. He wants to flirt. I'm going to flirt. He wants to ignore me that's fine too. I got other things to do. As long as this is filling a need for me I'll lean in a little. But only enough to keep me off tinder for the time being
R2C got my wheels turning about the seduction things when H made a comment about my body for the first time. That was the first time I realized H's fog was lifting just enough that he could see me as attractive. Up until that point he made it pretty clear I was either a cloven foot animal or basically his sister or some kind of minotaur with boobs.So I started reading up on seduction. Like you said, wooba, I plan to dangle that carrot. He wants to flirt. I'm going to flirt. He wants to ignore me that's fine too. I got other things to do. As long as this is filling a need for me I'll lean in a little. But only enough to keep me off tinder for the time being
Another key is to have fun with it. There are so many levels to being seductive. I need to re-read the book. It has been a long time. So many counter-intuitive skills one can learn and apply to their sitch.
Up until that point he made it pretty clear I was either a cloven foot animal or basically his sister or some kind of minotaur with boobs
Omg this is just quote of the day!
I’m killing myself laughing (into a G&T I stopped by to have in a bar on my own on the way home from IC , so that I don’t get home until 7pm and H might wonder where I’ve been
. )
Omg this is just quote of the day!
I’m killing myself laughing (into a G&T I stopped by to have in a bar on my own on the way home from IC , so that I don’t get home until 7pm and H might wonder where I’ve been
. )
Unfortunately because of the Midwest US and UK time difference I'm not having that G&T with you. But trust me if I could pull the old it's 5 o'clock somewhere I would. The newest chapter in my saga of the wayward husband is he hasn't said a word to me in since his completely random Sunday night text fest.
I know the vets say LBSs don't ever want to be in the heads of the WS. But I really would like to see it, but less in the sense of a "what women/men want" movie where I'm hearing it in real time and more in like a dramady/sitcom form where it's narrated to me in a light hearted comedic way to offset the intensity and seriousness of it. I'm just saying, I think hearing Nick Offerman say "And when he awoke the next day he realized that he literally has no idea what he wants." H jumps off of couch. "And because he has no idea how to deal with that he's decided the best course of action is to pretend literally everything that happened the last 2 days never happened. Yes, that will fix how he's feeling. Denial" H puts pants(trousers) on. "He will contact OW that will further erase all that doubt. Because nothing says I'm not confused like texting your mistress while packing yourself a lunch of the dinner your wife made." H types furiously on smart phone. Sets phone down on counter and pack himself a lunch excited about the left overs of his favorite pasta dish his wife made. H smiles at the tupperware. H's phone buzzes and he smiles at phone. Nick Offerman says, "And once again he thinks all is right with the world and he has everything figured out. But little does he know he has absolutely nothing figured out...."
I swear to god I'm going to write a memoir or start doing stand up after this disaster.
OMG ladies, a lot to catch up on!! I missed you!
Up until that point he made it pretty clear I was either a cloven foot animal or basically his sister or some kind of minotaur with boobs.
I agree with Wooba, this is the best. Ever. I snort laughed when I read that.
I feel totally behind so will just comment on a few things... first, you guys both sound GREAT. Happy and laughing and I wish we could all meet up for a drink and could trash our sorry Hs together. WF, Nick Offerman is the perfect choice and I can hear him reading those lines. Get oceangirl to use her Hollywood connections and you have a winner on your hands!!
Second, I also have done the flirty texts back and forth from one bedroom to another. Ridiculous but kind of fun. And you guys know my theory on this-- if it serves you and you're doing it for you, have at it. I also think keeping him slightly off base is helpful. I don't think you want to be consistently available/flirty whenever he gets it in his head he wants that... OK to flash that side when you feel it but don't let him get comfortable there.
Finally, WF, you sound strong and balanced. I love that you're so OK with whatever happens-- he moves out, he moves out. Part of the process that needs to happen with your sitch and you're so cool about it. I totally envy that!
xx May
No not a memoir - a screenplay. Clearly you've chosen the right narrator! I think you've got the beginnings of some solid and important stage directions written in there, so that's my vote on medium.
I considered doing some (local) improv recently now that I'm largely post-sitch. It's amazing the fear we lose as we meander forward! If I had to have a favorite part - that's it. The immense shedding of fear.
Maybe even a musical?? The husband breaks into song about all his justifications of x behavior. With elements of an alternative reality like “Isn’t It Romantic” with Rebel Wilson.
Or screw the Hs we can have our own Wine Country movie.
OMG I love that movie!!! I wish it was easier to connect IRL I feel so close to you ladies I think a long weekend together would be amazing
Oh, you guys are the best! Thanks for adding some laughs to my night. I’ve been stuck in a funk (wonder why!), and now I’m feeling lighter. I plugged in a lamp to an outlet a few minutes ago, and it sparked and smoked for a second (!), but no lights went out. I thought I should mention it to H next time I see him in case he plugs in something and is similarly surprised, but, nah, let him discover that on his own, if it happens again. I’ll imagine Nick Offerman narrating that scene...
I feel totally behind so will just comment on a few things... first, you guys both sound GREAT. Happy and laughing and I wish we could all meet up for a drink and could trash our sorry Hs together. WF, Nick Offerman is the perfect choice and I can hear him reading those lines. Get oceangirl to use her Hollywood connections and you have a winner on your hands!!
Seriously, why aren't we writing some sort of first wives club type movie?! I can get on that train!!!!
And what is this seduction book people are talking about? How did I miss this?
Wayfarer you are a reminder to me to not forget my sense of humor. We definitely can't lose that in the middle of all of this
So a bit of journaling update. H neither spoke or texted me a single word Monday and almost all day Tuesday after the aforementioned groping & texting incidents over the weekend. Which a part of me knew that would happen. Whenever he allows himself to get just a little too close to me he has a guilt spiral over OW which the irony, my god, but I do understand it. I've been there.
It's a crappy feeling to have literally no idea where your loyalty lies. You want to lean into the AP because obviously your spouse is a problem and AP is not a problem, ever, they are magic and rainbows and unicorns. But when spouse acts like they used to, and treats you like they used to, and makes you laugh like they used to, and looks at you like they used to it gets hard to think about AP and all the glitter they offer in those moments, so you lean in to the warmth of the familiar. From there it becomes a genuine struggle to try to suss out if leaning in to the MR is really a violation to the relationship with the AP since it's the "right" R, and it's the older R of the two, and technically AP has known all along what the deal is and was.
But anyway, I digress into my past life and far more empathy than H probably deserves, it being a Tuesday yesterday, I had assumed he wouldn't be home when I got home. That he'd roll in from date night with OW some time after 11pm as usual. He was very much home when I got home from my work out class. He came to talk to me immediately when I walked in the door. And for the first time in 8 weeks he was home all night on a Tuesday night. He folded laundry with me since I had to put it off this week. We watched a movie as a family. He cleaned up the kitchen after dinner. Packed both of us a lunch. Took out the garbage and recycling. He didn't even have his phone out that much. He fell asleep on the couch before 9:30pm. Lovely for our girls to see him home. I had thought it would be lovely for me too. Nope. I ended up taking a triple dose of my anxiety medication throughout the night last night because of this. I took one when I came home and he was still there. I took one when he showered thinking he's going to make me watch him leave in front of these kids. And then the last one at 8:30 when he was still sitting on the couch watching the movie and not making any moves to leave for a quicky with OW like I've seen him do mid week before. I had a really hard time falling asleep. I'm going to bring this up with my IC obviously. But I for life of me can't figure out why it put me into that level of a panic last night. I don't know if it's because I've grown accustomed to our completely insane schedule and he crapped all over my expectations. Or if I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and I have no idea what that shoe is. I hate how on edge his good behavior makes me. But I'm starting to realize that most of it is because I constantly think that any good behavior is transactional behavior. That he's only doing something remotely human to either pay for something I didn't know happened or something he's about to do.
Finally, WF, you sound strong and balanced. I love that you're so OK with whatever happens-- he moves out, he moves out. Part of the process that needs to happen with your sitch and you're so cool about it. I totally envy that!
xx May
As you can see May, I'm no where near balanced. Strong, yes. But balanced not even close. But when it comes to the moving out thing, I am very at peace with it.
I know I'll be a disaster the day H actually leaves. Well probably the night when I'm alone in bed and crying. But I can't help but think about the power dynamics of our relationship right now. We are working with barely 1200 sq ft. so even in an IHS separation which we are half-a$$ing at best we are on top of each other constantly. And as much as he's engaging with me now he holds nearly all the power. Not because I'm lying in wait for his crumbs, it's because I can't effectively put boundaries in place because he walks through them. The only ones I've actually been able to enforce have been the closure of the muffin shop and kicking him to the couch. (which in his WS addled brain in the recent fight tried to tell me he chose to sleep there**hard eyeroll**) I can't limit my contact the way I'd like to because if I ignore his texts he'll follow me around the house when I get home. I can't make him wonder what I'm doing out because he's not only stalking my insta and snap stories if he's not out with OW (and sometimes even when he is) he's sitting up waiting for me to get home. I have so little power in our dynamic any more. The second he walks out that door, all that changes.
Not only does the power dynamic change, but it also ends my cooking, my cleaning, my 1/2 of the parenting for his daughter on the day to day stuff (i.e. buying her feminine products, making sure she's taking a coat with her, making sure she's not wearing a crop top to grandma's house, etc), my buying necessities for the household, me reminding him about things, me fixing his messes, me helping him talk through work issues, financial issues, family issues. All of that becomes the burden of him and OW. The fact is it's impossible for him to see our relationship for what it really was if we stay like this. It's impossible for him to see who I really was/am if we stay like this. Their sad little love bubble will never burst if he can't pursue his relationship with her fully. If he stays it will just end up as another nonsensical reason for resenting me. That some how our marriage and me specifically got in the way of his chance at real happiness or true love or his soul mate or whatever it is this week. If we ever reconcile that's not a hurdle I want to add to the dozens of hurdles we'd have to navigate already.
And the princess who has no kids and has never been married will not understand the weight and reality of navigating this until it's put in practice. She has no idea how hard her road is. She has no idea how people are going to look at her, or treat her. Or how terrible she'll feel when I'm not sad, or cruel, or cold to her. That despite all of his flaws and misgivings if she pits herself against either kid he will pick the kids over her. Not me. But the kids for sure. He's done it relationships before and I have no doubt, fog or not, that he'll do it again. She doesn't understand that neither of the kids will ever look at her as a person they can like or trust. They are far too old for this to be the kind of thing that'll just smooth out with time. D15 is about to be D16. And D 17 will be my D18 in fall. They aren't cute and little, they aren't babies, or easily adaptable any more. She doesn't know how attached he is to me.That he only has a handful of friends, and I'm one of them, and he's in no way ready to let that go. That not only is the bio mother of his child going to always be looming in their R but so will I.This is heavy situation she's walking into and has no idea how heavy. And if ran books, I'd say the odds are pretty good that once this little life of theirs is a reality and no longer a fantasy the weight of it is going to be the demise of their R.
I don't see any way out of the limbo we're finally truly in unless he leaves and chases this fantasy of his. He has to leave to miss me, value me, to miss our MR and to see the value of our MR. Or at the very least he has to go for me to continue on my journey of remembering who I was and finding her without his influence. I can neither win him back or move on with my life with him looming ever present in my house. He needs to go so we can heal individually, and maybe someday together.
I had posed a scenario where even if he lies awake the night before the move thinking it's a mistake he still would go. And I maintain that that's what would happen. But if in some strange twist of fate he changed his mind and didn't want to leave some time between today and move out day, I don't know that I would let him stay. He forced me into preparing for his departure in April, and if he wanted to try and we had to start M 2.0 I have a hard time seeing a path for us where we start from scratch in the same house.
Well last night was fun for me. Just as a reminder before I rant. I had no intention on bringing in the entire Midwest on this situation but due to my WH's lack of propriety and weird need to date his OW openly and be super obvious about it on social media here we are. He some where along the way here went very Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy with declaring our marriage over. He seems to think because he feels it and said it to me, that it some how makes it true. I don't know.
Yesterday I was kindly informed by a friend that I am not angry enough at my H's out right disrespect therefore I mustn't respect myself (sigh). That I need to learn when a person is toxic and to let go (ok that had a little merit to it). Holding on because I'm scared of being alone isn't a good enough reason to hold on to a cheating husband. (that's never been a reason this entire time, but ok) That I deserve better than him and this and someone needs to tell me (because you know no one, not one person has said that at all this entire time, eye roll, my WH has even said this btw). That it's really sad that I'm accepting of the fact that the whole 2 friends of his that will still speak to me and "my" friends are taking a very Switzerland stance to the whole ordeal. (umm ok) That she is a better person and friend than they are. And that she's really sorry that H doesn't have any friends with as strong of a moral back bone as her to tell him what he is doing wrong (she at this point essentially alluded to an intervention of sorts). Mind you we were out for an early dinner. Like the whole place could hear this because she was so upset. I wanted to crawl in a hole.
The whole interaction was very strange. It went from how I was doing. And how concerned her H is about me. To her H running into one of two above said friends and how they wouldn't talk about my sitch with him. And when I kinda shrugged that off I was berated with the above. She was one of the 3 people I've been confiding in purposely since the very early days of this, and had been nothing but supportive of me up until last night.
I tried to let her know that the Switzerland stance is just not that big a deal. I don't want people picking sides. No one knows what's going to happen here in 3, 6, 9, 12 months down the road. Our metro area is mid-sized but most people end up bumping into each other at some point. That we all have to live with H and OW living their lives at some point here. Or in the off chance H sees the light in the next year or so what happens if H and I, R? Do we really need the hurdles of people playing team wf vs team wf's wayward husband? I then explained detachment. And how I can't just be mad or weeping 24/7. That H isn't getting a free pass. I'm just not invested in making his life a living h3ll. Nor am I interested in fighting constantly about the ways in which I'm being mistreated. I talked about the things that I am actually afraid of and that none of which are being alone. I'm actually kinda looking forward to that. And that fear isn't keeping me here. Love is. Unfortunately that's what has me tethered. I got a rather large actual real life eye roll and sigh. And then was told she'll 'stay in her lane' from now on but that I really need to know that I can do better than my H and frankly all the crappy people I apparently have in my life.
I knew I'd eventually have to defend my standing. I know how terrible this situation looks to outsiders. I understand I look like doormat or an idiot to people just trying to be zen about my dumpster fire of a life right now. I even knew that my sanity would be questioned when I'd tell people I'm ok with him going, but I do still love him very much. What I didn't anticipate was the fact that I'd have to defend my non-stance on whole other adults having a non-stance on MY mess. I didn't think I have to explain to another adult that what they think I'm thinking and feeling isn't what I'm thinking and feeling. I didn't anticipate people making my tragedy about them I guess.
On a positive note I did do my best run to date late last night, although I am a little curious as to why she had me more fired up than when WH leaves to go see OW....
Hey WF,
(((HUGS)))
I'm really sorry to hear about your friend. That $ucks and I completely empathize with you. I guess the only thing I can say is that (hopefully) she is saying this out of genuine love and caring for you, just unable to disconnect her own biases from how she can support you right now. I loved how you earlier compared people saying they would do XYZ if their H had a PA to people saying "when I'm a parent I'll never let my kid do XYZ" and then there they are years later with their monsters glued to iPads or whatever. And I was judgy before I had kids and now I just have so much empathy for those parents doing the best they can. So I'm hoping you can not worry too much about what she's saying.
And as much as he's engaging with me now he holds nearly all the power. Not because I'm lying in wait for his crumbs, it's because I can't effectively put boundaries in place because he walks through them. The only ones I've actually been able to enforce have been the closure of the muffin shop and kicking him to the couch. (which in his WS addled brain in the recent fight tried to tell me he chose to sleep there**hard eyeroll**) I can't limit my contact the way I'd like to because if I ignore his texts he'll follow me around the house when I get home. I can't make him wonder what I'm doing out because he's not only stalking my insta and snap stories if he's not out with OW (and sometimes even when he is) he's sitting up waiting for me to get home. I have so little power in our dynamic any more. The second he walks out that door, all that changes.
I just want to challenge this a bit. I *do* think you have clearly defined boundaries and are enforcing them. No, it isn't traditional like you outlined later on... all the things he loses when he MO... but clearly you have set some emotional boundaries and it honestly seems like they're effective. I think you hold a lot more power in the R than you think you do. The fact that he's stalking you on Insta even when he's with OW? i think you are incredibly strong, sister, and even if he gets to see you every day and eat your delicious meals and fold laundry with you-- there is that essential piece that he isn't getting of you that he'll never get until he recommits to the MR.
Patience? Continued DB? I'm sorry that it is all so anxiety-inducing for you. It definitely seems like the closer he draws the harder it is getting. I don't know what to think about that except for you've outlined a really clear way that works as a path for healing for you and the potential for R in the future, and it involves him leaving and you going NC. So as he draws closer it actually makes you feel like your solution is getting further away and what then???? Is that maybe a bit how you're feeling?
Just like I'm trying to focus on dismantling my fantasy R scenario and focusing it on what I need for me and how I want/need to feel, I wonder if you can similarly look at your scenario where he moves out and pull out of that not the transformation that he* needs or the disaster *he* needs to encounter before he's ready to return to the MR, but what it all means for YOU. And are there ways you can continue to move in your journey towards healing, whether he is in your house or out of it?
And if you truly don't see a way forward with him in your house? You either gotta buckle down and $uck it up till April, or advance the deadline... but I know that is difficult for a lot of good reasons. Hugs, WF. You're super strong and a truly amazing woman. You got this, whatever happens. I know you do.
I hate how on edge his good behavior makes me. But I'm starting to realize that most of it is because I constantly think that any good behavior is transactional behavior. That he's only doing something remotely human to either pay for something I didn't know happened or something he's about to do.
Argh, totally realizing I'm with you on this. And of course now that my H's good behavior has ended, I'm wondering about the "something he's about to do part" even more. So one thing that might help both of us is to stop thinking anything of the good behavior, right? Isn't that one of those things that sounds deceivingly simple? It's not transactional, it just is. Or isn't. All I know is that the good behavior in my sitch (which is not even the same kind of "good") threw me for a loop, and I've been trying to get my balance back ever since. Maybe it's a more gradual process, this balance-seeking. Something someone once told me just popped into my head: "The practice isn't to remain centered. The practice is to return to center."
I also appreciate all of your clear thinking re: your H's plans to move out. It helps me think about the possibility more clearly, too, why it's needed and not something to fear, though I'm currently feeling a bit frustrated that my H has never even brought it up.
He some where along the way here went very Michael Scott declaring bankruptcy with declaring our marriage over. He seems to think because he feels it and said it to me, that it some how makes it true. I don't know.
He feels it and says it so it's true. That seems about right. He's got to justify what he's doing, right?
The whole interaction was very strange. It went from how I was doing. And how concerned her H is about me. To her H running into one of two above said friends and how they wouldn't talk about my sitch with him. And when I kinda shrugged that off I was berated with the above. She was one of the 3 people I've been confiding in purposely since the very early days of this, and had been nothing but supportive of me up until last night.
Oof. I'm sorry you were subjected to her rant, probably over what you imagined would be a pleasant dinner. It sounds like it was more about her than it was about you, or even what she thinks of your decisions or attitude. I think it's hard for anyone to understand how they would react in these kinds of situations, and they project a lot onto us. You, again, are so clear-headed here and eloquent—you know exactly what you're choosing and why.
What I didn't anticipate was the fact that I'd have to defend my non-stance on whole other adults having a non-stance on MY mess. I didn't think I have to explain to another adult that what they think I'm thinking and feeling isn't what I'm thinking and feeling.
What exactly are you supposed to do about the way his friends and your friends are interacting with each other? Why should that be your problem? Your focus is on you, which is where it should be, imo. Maybe your friend's disappointment with how other people are reacting or not reacting to all of this is something she feels like she needs to take care of, or something she needs you to get riled up about too, but... it's not. I hope this friend will give you more of the kind of support you need.
And congrats on the run!
I’m sorry you had to sit through that conversation with your friend. I’m sure she meant well. She has genuine concerns for you and probably was just angry for you. It is difficult for our friends to support us in this situation, esp when from their perspective the easiest and the most reasonable thing may be to just leave the M. Don’t let this strain your friendship though. Maybe next time you can just politely suggest not talking about this at all.
I have a friend who is a L so I had to let her in on my sitch when I consulted her. And after that she would keep sending me these links on articles on marriage/children/relationship building .....it is actually kind of funny and sweet (I do not read any of it ever). It is hard for some people to not offer help when they think they can help you. Lol.
But I for life of me can't figure out why it put me into that level of a panic last night. I don't know if it's because I've grown accustomed to our completely insane schedule and he crapped all over my expectations. Or if I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop and I have no idea what that shoe is. I hate how on edge his good behavior makes me. But I'm starting to realize that most of it is because I constantly think that any good behavior is transactional behavior. That he's only doing something remotely human to either pay for something I didn't know happened or something he's about to do.
Expectations. You are ready for him when he’s being his usual self because that’s what you expect. When he shows good behavior it throws you off not only because 1) you weren’t expecting it, but also 2) the good behavior makes you expect that bad thing will follow.
You don’t need to know where that good behavior comes from, and you don’t need to know where it will lead you. Take it at face value. Keep moving forward.
Weekend update:
The friend thing is what it is. I've decided to just kind back off from her for a while. She was the same mutual friend posting passive aggressive memes pointed at H. So having time to sit and think after reeling in my own personal hurt over the behavior, and talking to H about both of our recent interactions with her I realized I may have confided in someone who just isn't emotionally able to handle something this heavy without projecting her own relationship issues and making things about her. She's a good person and her heart I'm sure is in the right place, but I need support and love. Not shame and questioning. I question myself and my motivations 24/7.
As far as stuff with my WH this weekend. Dear lord it's a new thing every single week with this man. So we had that big heart to heart a week ago and he was telling me there's likelihood OW is moving in June since he's absolutely without a doubt moving out in April. I've been operating on that assumption prior, frankly, and since. But since I'm just tumbling down the rabbit hole of terrible DBing recently and even more recently terrible muffin shop owning I have found out that that is/was not the entire story.
Friday night both WH and I got home late-ish I was home and in bed watching TV but H had been texting me so I figured he'd just end up waking me up when he got home, I'd stay up. He came and sat and then laid on the bed and we chit chatted about our night and the friend that I'm having issues with since she has started posting passive aggressive memes about me being a door mat. We discussed for a while the people we've let all the way in on this and our positive and negative feelings about that. Then we talked about a bunch of other stuff some mundane some less so. He fell asleep in the bed, and I just let him.
Saturday he left to put a couple hours in at work, and a practice run for his upcoming marathon. I left shortly after for a much shorter run and errands. We were only home together a short time Saturday afternoon as I had a kid's bday party to attend. There was construction outside our house, I think maybe a water main down the block but the trucks were all parked by us. He asked if he could have the MBR for the night as he had to go in to work at 3am. I agreed. He mentioned what seemed like off handedly that he doesn't care if I wanted to be in the bed too. He'd be fine and just slip out at 2:15. Then he wouldn't need to wake me and move me from the couch. I kinda shrugged it off. And said maybe, we'll see how loud it is. When we were forced to share a bed Christmas night due to house guests, it was a sh*tshow. Like body pillow between us. He slept on top of the covers fully clothed. I cried myself to sleep once he started snoring. The idea of being back in the bed made me a little worried I was going to have like LBS PTSD but he was right laying on the couch the work in the street was super loud and vibrating from the machinery. So I went and laid in the bed with him. I went in the bed with every intention of the fighters saying in their own corner. I was in a big t-shirt and leggings. Apparently best of intentions and being covered from collar bone to ankle wasn't enough. He initiated and I didn't stop him, nor did I have any intention of stopping him pretty much the second he reached over to me.
Sunday night against my better judgement and my flitting around the house doing nonsensical "cleaning" to avoid it WH decided he wanted to talk about what had happened and we were going to talk about it. He apologized. And I did get a little snotty and asked what he was apologizing for. The physical intimacy or the emotional intimacy of holding me all night and kissing my forehead when he slipped out of bed in the morning? He said all of it. He didn't want to confuse me any more than he already had. And he didn't want me to be as confused as he is. Apparently what he had told me the week prior when about his big plans moving forward in his relationship with OW was only half the story. He left out a big IF in that. Apparently that's what is going to happen IF he stays on the path to his future with OW. Apparently he had been questioning things for a few weeks at that time. And he's been actively pulling away from her, but didn't want to tell me so I didn't get my hopes up. He, as I had suspected, but apparently he didn't, doesn't really know what he wants. Apparently this is why he's home so much lately. And just like on me. He says hasn't gone full NC with OW because he's still unsure. HE's unsure because up until recently he didn't see a future with me as an option at all. He now sees that. He missed me. He missed us. And he's feeling conflicted. I validated. "I understand. It's a tough place. I've been there. I'm doing my best to give you time and space." All that stuff.
He pushed about how I felt about it because I seemed mad. And since I was already crapping all over my own boundaries and DBing I just went for it. I said I wasn't mad. I just didn't want to have the conversation. I was actively avoiding it and he couldn't take the hint. That I just wanted to leave what had happened alone for like a day or two. That I'm getting frustrated with the idea that me bringing up R stuff is pushing too hard, but if he wants to talk about it I need to drop everything and talk about it or I won't get any thing at all about what's going through his head. That I'm frustrated that he thinks I'm so stupid that I didn't know he was conflicted and somehow he was going to hide that from me. That it's way too late to protect me from pretty much anything, much less from getting my hopes up. I hadn't assigned any meaning to the night before. As with everything he says and does in the last 4ish months, I just let it ride and see where the chips fall. That I'm living my life as if he's running out the door ASAP, but I appreciate him finally saying he's actually conflicted instead of forcing me to Nancy Drew my way through his actions to guess. He asked if I regretted it. And I said no. I haven't been touched in 3 months. And I don't know how I'd regret sleeping with my own husband.He then asked how I felt about him being in the MBR more, and being intimate more. A part of me wanted to tell him yeah never going to happen one time thing. Last hurrah, enjoy bucko. But alas the boards have been ripped off the muffin shop doors and I don't think there's any going back now. I said that OW isn't welcome anywhere in my bedroom. If he wants in and all the privileges in there she doesn't cross the threshold. No communicating with her at all in this room, and that I had a pristine STI panel Christmas Eve because of this nonsense and that it better stay that way. I've sacrificed sanity, pride, and apparently friends now over this mess, I'm not going to sacrifice my health for his indecision.
He had intended on sleeping in the MBR last night but got spooked realizing he had been in the bedroom when the kids started settling in for the night and "didn't want to give them the wrong idea." I may have not so politely said that normal families on the verge of a split usually tell the kids they are splitting after they've exhausted all avenues, and you making an effort in this relationship isn't "the wrong idea." He brought up the hopes thing about them. I wanted to say, those girls think you're a hopeless mess, I don't know who's feelings you're trying to spare at this point. But I did not. I just said I get it. He gave me a hug, and went and slept on the couch. He came into the MBR to say good bye this morning before work.
I see my IC tomorrow. I think I'm going to have to talk to her about seeing her once a week instead of every other. His behavior is changing so rapidly I just can't process this stuff fast enough to stay detached. Or apparently even make good decisions. I can see how antsy and stressed out him leaning in more and more is is making me. If this is the road we're going down I really need to talk through a new game plan of how to move forward if he doesn't move out as planned. And in the cases of both scenarios of either a longer state of limbo or if he wants to really try.
I just want to end this with if you see my very first post on my very first thread I asked him at Christmas time to just leave this alone and we live our lives separately and not have a single R talk until March 1. Why couldn't he just listen to me?? Lol
Wow WF, what a rollercoaster of a weekend. He definitely spooked himself by getting close and has now pulled away to try and counteract his actions. Keep up the DBing as it’s clearly working in many regards. I’m glad you got some action after 3 months (I’m sooo jealous!!), I feel concerned that he is actively pulling away from OW but hasn’t ended it, whilst simultaneously is sniffing around you. Forgive me if I am wrong but he seems to be testing out the solidity off plan B before ditching Plan A. I think you have recognised this anyhow. Be careful and be strong x
OMG Wayfarer. HUGS HUGS HUGS. You are on a wild ride, sister.
First off, I think moving to the weekly IC appointments is a good idea. And continuing to double down on whatever GALing you can do. Working out might be good to burn off the emotional energy?
Some thoughts:
On the muffin shop... you go, girl. Don't feel bad or guilty or shamed for making this choice. I think as long as you feel it is beneficial for YOU and you aren't attaching too much other emotional stuff to it-- which I don't think you will-- it is fine. (Also whatever you need to do to know you're protecting yourself health-wise.) You know I've done it and I'm not sorry. In fact in my situation I think it really pulled my H out of how he was viewing me and made him realize I'm not the frigid controlling W he was trying to pretend I was in order to go. I know your sitch is different because you didn't have a SSM, but maybe some things are still parallel. My only advice in this space is to stay on top of reevaluating how you feel about this and to not be afraid to close the muffin shop back up if your feelings change. And not to make it too easy for him.
Apparently what he had told me the week prior when about his big plans moving forward in his relationship with OW was only half the story. He left out a big IF in that. Apparently that's what is going to happen IF he stays on the path to his future with OW. Apparently he had been questioning things for a few weeks at that time. And he's been actively pulling away from her, but didn't want to tell me so I didn't get my hopes up. He, as I had suspected, but apparently he didn't, doesn't really know what he wants. Apparently this is why he's home so much lately. And just like on me. He says hasn't gone full NC with OW because he's still unsure. HE's unsure because up until recently he didn't see a future with me as an option at all. He now sees that. He missed me. He missed us. And he's feeling conflicted.
I think you saw this from his behavior and knew it was coming, didn't you? I know it feels destabilizing because you've laid out in your mind (yes, fellow control freak, I saw that) the path back for him that will work, the things he *needs* to do before coming back, and this isn't it... so it has got to feel alarming and difficult and totally throws you off your game.
I might say, though, that much of what he needed to experience he has been experiencing, just not 100%. He has been able to pursue his R with the AP and sounds like the bloom is wearing off the rose. He sees that you're OK with him MO and will be OK without him and he's now wondering if he's OK without you. The million dollar question, of course, debated on my thread (and KG's) to no end, is if he needs to actually lose you to truly come back or if there is another path that may be different from the standard but still ends up in R. I've been re-reading Healing from Infidelity and she definitely advocates for staying in the R as long as you can handle it. (When you can't, then you walk.) What you're doing is poster child from her book. Have you read it? There is a chapter on what to do when your spouse won't end the affair and it might be really helpful for you. Though it feels like you're already doing everything it says.
Here's another thing that I think is important right now... he may very well pull back again, get freaked out that he slept with you, shared these things with you, whatever. I think it is a good thing that you were honest and open with him in the R talk. But be prepared this week for maybe how you might feel Tuesday night if he goes out with OW, or if you see him texting or whatever. Maybe this is a good time to plan to be out of the house as much as you can to keep your own sanity (and also for him to wonder where you are)?
hang in there. Do you have one new thing you can focus on this week, just for you?
Wow WF, what a rollercoaster of a weekend. He definitely spooked himself by getting close and has now pulled away to try and counteract his actions. Keep up the DBing as it’s clearly working in many regards. I’m glad you got some action after 3 months (I’m sooo jealous!!), I feel concerned that he is actively pulling away from OW but hasn’t ended it, whilst simultaneously is sniffing around you. Forgive me if I am wrong but he seems to be testing out the solidity off plan B before ditching Plan A. I think you have recognised this anyhow. Be careful and be strong x
I think he might have. I'm not surprised really. He did that last weekend just touching my legs and opening up to me. I got 2 days of silence because of that. But today I've already been messaged. So I don't know how much is really about the girls, how much is about him wanting to talk to OW before he fell asleep, and how much is his own conscious fighting itself should he be in the bed with me another night.
The plan a vs plan b thing I'm sure is part of it, but not all. I really don't think he saw me as an actual option at all until recently. I think the fog/alien what ever was too strong before. The comment I made about the minotaur with boobs was/is a real thing. About 6 or 7 weeks ago now he walked in the bedroom after I had gotten out of the shower. I was in a full on bath sheet. Like one of those giant sized towels. I was covered from cleavage to calf and when he walked in he behaved as if he has walked in on a stark naked stranger in a changing room and was horrified. Not only did that make me feel like absolute garbage, but it was one of the weird moments when I realized how deep into the limerence he was. That right there is the only thing I'm reading into this. Feelings for him are all over the board. I know that we aren't exactly full steam ahead to R because of this. I think were just rounding one more terrifying bend on a windy, long, arduous journey. But something clearly has changed. Because less than 2 months ago the idea of touching me disgusted him.
OMG Wayfarer. HUGS HUGS HUGS. You are on a wild ride, sister.
First off, I think moving to the weekly IC appointments is a good idea. And continuing to double down on whatever GALing you can do. Working out might be good to burn off the emotional energy?
Ok so I'm just going to say it. My dance class is a pole dancing class. I have that 1 day a week. Plus 1 more day I do something called pole fit there which is a strength and flexibility course specifically geared toward the muscle groups and flexibility you need for the pole. I do yoga once a week at the Y with my bff. And then I run 3 days a week. If I work out more with as much as I struggle to eat these days I might die...lol. Granted I was a big girl before this, but I'm getting ever closer to an average sized girl now and I'm running out of wiggle room with the dramatic weight loss. But maybe I need to take up knitting or something. While I am reading more than I used to it has to be light material because I can't focus long enough for the deeper more detailed stuff right now. Something difficult and new but relatively mindless is what I think I need.
Some thoughts:
On the muffin shop... you go, girl. Don't feel bad or guilty or shamed for making this choice. I think as long as you feel it is beneficial for YOU and you aren't attaching too much other emotional stuff to it-- which I don't think you will-- it is fine. (Also whatever you need to do to know you're protecting yourself health-wise.) You know I've done it and I'm not sorry. In fact in my situation I think it really pulled my H out of how he was viewing me and made him realize I'm not the frigid controlling W he was trying to pretend I was in order to go. I know your sitch is different because you didn't have a SSM, but maybe some things are still parallel. My only advice in this space is to stay on top of reevaluating how you feel about this and to not be afraid to close the muffin shop back up if your feelings change. And not to make it too easy for him.
My drive is super high. I know I joked, but I was very seriously toying with the idea of making a tinder profile. This is most definitely filling a need I'd rather let my H fill than a stranger for a multitude of reasons. I think this is also pulling him out of the way he viewed me too, but different way. He really was so far gone he couldn't see me as a sexual being. I was furniture that cooked before. I think him remembering what that part of our life was like is piece that's been missing in all this new found interest in the life we were living. I'm not exactly expecting roses or for him to be asking for a date night any time soon. But romance starts with attraction. Him willingly admitting attraction is one thing here that I'm willing to let myself read into. And the reassessing is definitely a conversation that I had with myself and I'm sure I'll have with my bff soon. You think a lot like her, May
I think you saw this from his behavior and knew it was coming, didn't you? I know it feels destabilizing because you've laid out in your mind (yes, fellow control freak, I saw that) the path back for him that will work, the things he *needs* to do before coming back, and this isn't it... so it has got to feel alarming and difficult and totally throws you off your game.
I did. But he kept saying he was so sure of his trajectory I chose to believe it. Granted I know believe none of what they say and 1/2 of what they do. So it should've been a good indicator. This is throwing me off a lot. I didn't think he'd try what he did on Saturday until the 11th hour, but I guess maybe this feels like the 11th hour to him.
I might say, though, that much of what he needed to experience he has been experiencing, just not 100%. He has been able to pursue his R with the AP and sounds like the bloom is wearing off the rose. He sees that you're OK with him MO and will be OK without him and he's now wondering if he's OK without you. The million dollar question, of course, debated on my thread (and KG's) to no end, is if he needs to actually lose you to truly come back or if there is another path that may be different from the standard but still ends up in R. I've been re-reading Healing from Infidelity and she definitely advocates for staying in the R as long as you can handle it. (When you can't, then you walk.) What you're doing is poster child from her book. Have you read it? There is a chapter on what to do when your spouse won't end the affair and it might be really helpful for you. Though it feels like you're already doing everything it says.
I need to get the book, but we share the amazon account. I was able to get DR through my target app on my phone. I'm trying to not be super obvious about the books I'm reading about this. Not just because of the Sandi recommendation but one of the sticks in his craw over our MR or just a personality quirk I guess is that I find a subject and consume everything available to me about the subject. Then apparently not only do I think I know everything but a consuming interest in any subject is also very annoying. I was unaware of this until recently...lol.
Here's another thing that I think is important right now... he may very well pull back again, get freaked out that he slept with you, shared these things with you, whatever. I think it is a good thing that you were honest and open with him in the R talk. But be prepared this week for maybe how you might feel Tuesday night if he goes out with OW, or if you see him texting or whatever. Maybe this is a good time to plan to be out of the house as much as you can to keep your own sanity (and also for him to wonder where you are)?
I had very little on my calendar this week as we were due for another snow storm but it moved south, so I made dinner plans for Wednesday, and trying make more plans currently, because that's exactly what I'm concerned about. He went silent for 2 days after just touching my legs and sharing. This could send him reeling, or ping ponging harder between OW and me.
hang in there. Do you have one new thing you can focus on this week, just for you?
I don't know If I have anything new, but I think this weekend is candle lit bath weekend. Maybe I'll try a new wine
Ok so I'm just going to say it. My dance class is a pole dancing class. I have that 1 day a week. Plus 1 more day I do something called pole fit there which is a strength and flexibility course specifically geared toward the muscle groups and flexibility you need for the pole. I do yoga once a week at the Y with my bff. And then I run 3 days a week. If I work out more with as much as I struggle to eat these days I might die...lol. Granted I was a big girl before this, but I'm getting ever closer to an average sized girl now and I'm running out of wiggle room with the dramatic weight loss.
ooohh.... that sounds amazing. I want to do that! I decided I want to do some ab work now that I (also) don't really want to lose any more weight but want to work on my abs. Maybe pilates if I can't find a pole class
I think this is also pulling him out of the way he viewed me too, but different way. He really was so far gone he couldn't see me as a sexual being. I was furniture that cooked before. I think him remembering what that part of our life was like is piece that's been missing in all this new found interest in the life we were living. I'm not exactly expecting roses or for him to be asking for a date night any time soon.
But romance starts with attraction. Him willingly admitting attraction is one thing here that I'm willing to let myself read into. And the reassessing is definitely a conversation that I had with myself and I'm sure I'll have with my bff soon. You think a lot like her, May
This exactly mirrors what has happened with H and me also, though over a longer time frame. Six-nine months ago he was totally grossed out by the idea of having sex with me and he did this visible yech shake thing when we talked about it. So I stayed way, way back. We are in a totally different place now in/re sex and I know he is attracted to me. (TBH we have been sleeping together a tiny bit more than I've let on in my thread-- not all the time but there have been a few times I haven't shared about. But for me it is a really good thing for myself as I learn more about my own sexuality and recalibrating now that I no longer need to see my self as a low-sex-drive person.) That part you just said about romance starting with attraction is interesting too-- I hadn't really thought about it that way but you're right, it is certainly a step in the right direction.
I need to get the book, but we share the amazon account. I was able to get DR through my target app on my phone. I'm trying to not be super obvious about the books I'm reading about this. Not just because of the Sandi recommendation but one of the sticks in his craw over our MR or just a personality quirk I guess is that I find a subject and consume everything available to me about the subject. Then apparently not only do I think I know everything but a consuming interest in any subject is also very annoying. I was unaware of this until recently...lol.
OMG Wayfarer, THIS IS ME!! This is me exactly!!! And it is annoying my H no end right now. (Although he likes it when we do big projects together because I read everything that was ever written on the topic and he gets to get the cliff notes version.) Also if you order a book on Amazon you can archive the order right away so he doesn't see it in your list of things you bought. Or maybe get your friend to buy for you. I think it might be helpful as long as you can resist not giving your H recommendations on what needs to happen in order for him to let go mentally of AP or whatever... speaking from experience.
I don't know If I have anything new, but I think this weekend is candle lit bath weekend. Maybe I'll try a new wine
Good idea! You sound great. Have fun with your BFF--- wish we could all hang out!!
So mid week update:
Monday was a weird day. I was anticipating silence. And I didn't get it. There was a lot of chatter. Text and in person. He caught me alone in the kitchen and sincerely asked me how my day was, so sincerely that I thought he was messing with me, and me being me and terrible at this flat out asked him if he was. Messing might not have been the exact word I used. He was a little offended and told me he really wanted to know. So I told him. Asked him about his day. He thanked me for making dinner and went in for a kiss like a normal married couple "thanks babe" kiss not a I'm trying to get in your pants right now kiss, and I reacted quickly for some reason and gave him my cheek. I felt a little bad about that but the more he leans in and wants to play house the more stressed out I get. As I left for my dance class he grabbed me and pulled me in and asked if he could you know have another go at that the whole marital relations situation later. I said I'd think about it. I did give in but mostly because we're now working with this super fun teenagers trying not to get caught by their parents dynamic and the parents in this situation are D17 and D15. I did get a little sick pleasure of kicking him out of the bed after like he was a booty call. That was fun.
IC went really well yesterday. She's just so wonderful, and it's so helpful that she had met him just the once so she has a bit of knowledge of what I'm working with here. She's very encouraged by the direction things are going, but wants me to keep DBing and not only DBing but she told me to think about the beginning of our relationship and specifically try to emulate the things I did that seemed to attract him and pull him in then. So I'm going to guess adding back in intimacy isn't really hurting my cause here...lol. She did say let's keep it every other for now, just because things are moving so quickly in the other direction it might be best to just kind sit tight and wait him out, if my anxiety or his behavior is really going off the rails she'll squeeze me in. We did touch on next time discussing a path if he doesn't go, and how if that's the direction we end up in we'll need to talk about boundaries I'd like to put in place if he'd like more time at home while he decides but is also leaning in since it makes me so uncomfortable. And thoughts about what I'd like the R to look like and what I'm willing to live with when it inevitably doesn't go my way.
I felt really good after leaving there, but it being a Tuesday by midday I was just completely on edge. I don't know if I'm going to be traumatized by Tuesdays forever now, or what. I added an extra class on Tuesdays just so I wouldn't have to be home. I did my class. Stopped off at my bff's house and just wasted time because I wasn't sure if I was ready to deal with him being with OW or my other dread him being there all night. He was there. He was showered and snuggled up on the couch with blankets watching a romantic comedy alone. And there he stayed for the rest of the night. I ended up spending the rest of my night in the MBR. I think I said like 2 sentences to him yesterday. He clearly was picking up what I was putting down. He just left me alone. Tuesdays just suck. And we had had 4 straight days of being on top of each other emotionally and physically (not just figuratively this time) and I'm really not used to that any more. I needed my space and took it. I slept 8 hours straight for the first time in years. Literally years.
I have dinner with a friend tonight, and I'm so grateful it fell on the calendar when it did. I don't want to avoid him. I don't want to seem too eager either. But honestly me checking out yesterday and today are just because this is all so much so fast. He went from a complete stranger living in my house to what ever the hell this version of him is. I don't want him to feel rejected but I can't keep going at the pace he's trying to go. I need breathing room. I was kind of hoping he was going to ask why I was being weird last night, but then I remembered even in a good head space he would just let me be if I seemed off unless he thought it was aimed at him. So even if it's him being a selfish jerk he's still giving me the space I need. That's a positive I guess. I'm feeling super emotionally drained right now and I'm wondering if this is a touch of emotional hang over.
H just asked if I’m ok with him pushing the move out date to May or June....
Ugh what does that mean? Like he's still wanting to MO but needs more time to decide? What did you say?
H just asked if I’m ok with him pushing the move out date to May or June....
Not following your sitch closely, but if he is actively involved with OW, then:
"I believe it is best if you move out sooner"
May,
He says he can’t find a place. I legit found 2 places in his price range in the neighborhoods he’s looking in available April 1 in the time between him telling me and me posting on here. It’s a stalling tactic. I’m not dumb. He doesn’t know what he wants so he’s trying to buy 30-60 more days to see if he can figure it out. Let us not forgot the entire world knows WH is confused and has been but the love if my life just figured that out like a week ago. Me lamenting a few weeks ago that we had actually finally entered limbo. That was it. My limbo has existed since I found out about the EA and he refused to stop. His is brand new.
I told him he’s welcome to stay as long as he likes. He wants to go. I already told him what I want so I don’t know why he’d think I’d care if he wants to stay longer. He asked if I could say that with less crazy eyes and while wielding a knife, then laughed. I might have mentioned my family likes to ambush me while I cook.
He climbed in bed at 2am last and spooned me and slept there until the alarm went off. I still feel like he’s communicating with OW. So I don’t have my hopes on starting an R any time soon. But It’s literally like he woke up a week ago a saw me for the first time. Like me and our life was invisible. And now he sees it in full view for the first time in months and he’s panicking. It’s an interesting twist. I spent November and December and a good chunk of January in a full on panic. I’m just honestly grateful he’s moved from thinking this whole life was sh*t to acknowledged indecision. Even if it’s not that. Even if it’s just him slowing down the running I’m grateful. The running full force blindly into this new fantasy life really worried me for D15. Her mom still doesn’t have her life together. She’s still couch surfing even though she promised D15 there’d be an apartment by March 1. There isn’t.
I don’t know what’s coming next. And I’m going to do my best to not worry and just accept the gift of time he gave us. And our girls.
Not following your sitch closely, but if he is actively involved with OW, then:
"I believe it is best if you move out sooner"
I appreciate the advice, I really do R2C, but I won’t be doing that any time soon. This hard lined stuff over an AP isn’t appropriate for me and my sitch. I have a15 yo D in my house that isn’t biologically mine that I refuse to treat like she’s a duffle bag he can tote with. Her stability, safety and well being are of my utmost concern. I will not push him out and risk what wayward spouse addled brain choice he may make dragging her along for the ride.
Ah the indecisions.....yeah let him deal with his ambivalence on his own timeline. Continuing moving forward with your life as you have. Hang in there!
H just asked if I’m ok with him pushing the move out date to May or June....
I am the queen of over-analysing but if I was going to over-analyse I would say any of these:
-he’s having doubts about leaving but equally doubts about staying - just buying time until he understands himself a bit better
-he’s giving you a message that he wants to stay but perhaps pride/ego is stopping him from admitting he’s been a jerk
-he’s trying to find out where your head is at because he’s worried about you pulling the plug on him
-he’s comfortable with the status quo, MO is a PITA and expensive, and why leave if he is getting some of his needs met at home
For sure he isn’t ready to go anywhere right now. And he definitely isn’t seeing you as his sister any more (which is great and I’m still sooo envious about that but very pleased for you!)
That's the plan! Thanks wooba. Living my life 'as if' isn't changing any time soon. Thank you
I am the queen of over-analysing but if I was going to over-analyse I would say any of these:
-he’s having doubts about leaving but equally doubts about staying - just buying time until he understands himself a bit better
-he’s giving you a message that he wants to stay but perhaps pride/ego is stopping him from admitting he’s been a jerk
-he’s trying to find out where your head is at because he’s worried about you pulling the plug on him
-he’s comfortable with the status quo, MO is a PITA and expensive, and why leave if he is getting some of his needs met at home
For sure he isn’t ready to go anywhere right now. And he definitely isn’t seeing you as his sister any more (which is great and I’m still sooo envious about that but very pleased for you!)
I'm also constantly over analyzing and over thinking. So trust me I've gone through like 40 different scenarios, but I've decided to quit giving his ever changing process here that much emotional energy. I'm just accepting the gift of time because it's keeping our girls' lives status quo for a little longer, and I'm not worrying about what it all means. We are in limbo. We aren't moving in either direction any time soon. We've just slowed the time line here, and at this point that's all I really want, the least amount of disruption to my girls' lives as possible.
I'm just accepting the gift of time because it's keeping our girls' lives status quo for a little longer, and I'm not worrying about what it all means.
Good attitude, WF, as usual.
I know there is great power in choosing what you will and will not spend your energy on. I'm getting there. Someone on my Instagram feed posted clips of their visit to a rage room, and I thought of you.
I've decided to quit giving his ever changing process here that much emotional energy. I'm just accepting the gift of time because it's keeping our girls' lives status quo for a little longer, and I'm not worrying about what it all means. We are in limbo. We aren't moving in either direction any time soon. We've just slowed the time line here, and at this point that's all I really want, the least amount of disruption to my girls' lives as possible.
Hey WF, I think you have this right on. Take it for what it is worth-- the gift of time-- try to keep your same detached mindset you are so amazing at.
FWIW, I do think with my H restarting physical intimacy was a game changer for him, together with me dropping the rope and him seeing me actively starting to work on the D scenario. I do think the shift in seeing you as a sexual being again makes a difference and is part of him questioning his choices. That being said, you also don't want to make it TOO easy on him-- you desire what you don't have and all that. All seems complicated but my recommendation would be continuing to give him space and GALing and focusing on you. Not saying to turn him down but maybe not being too available.
Also, so funny... my H also got the Chernow book for Christmas.
I appreciate the advice, I really do R2C, but I won’t be doing that any time soon. This hard lined stuff over an AP isn’t appropriate for me and my sitch. I have a15 yo D in my house that isn’t biologically mine that I refuse to treat like she’s a duffle bag he can tote with. Her stability, safety and well being are of my utmost concern. I will not push him out and risk what wayward spouse addled brain choice he may make dragging her along for the ride.
I completely understand. I have SD16 that I have raised for about 10 years. These sitch are complicated enough when we are dealing with bio children.
My problem is I can't keep everyone's details straight in my head, So I fall back on my core understanding of things that typically have worked better for others. I just see so many posters here letting the cheating spouse make all the decision. They "ignore" the bad behavior and there is no real natural consequences to the cheater.
Anyways, What is good for D15 is good for you. You do right for her. That is what I would do for SD16.
OW went back to her boyfriend. WH says he still wants to move out though. He still wants out of the marriage. I asked why he can’t even try for us. Why he can’t give it like 3 months. What does he lose? He said 3 months. I said I already lost 4. I told him I won’t beg him to stay. Or beg him to love me but it’s pretty effed up that he’s completely unwilling to put in any effort into repairing this. That he thinks so little of me and marriage that he can’t give trying 90 days. We left the convo very open ended D17 came home early.
I want to scream at him. This is ridiculous. I’ve been fighting one demon this whole time to find out I’m digging to bf against so much more. I feel like I’m in panic mode all over again. It’s like another bomb drop. I’m still secure in him leaving. But I feel like complete garbage that he’s leaving me just to leave me. There was some level of security when there was OW. He was running towards something. Now what? He’s just running from me? This is exhausting. I just want to say screw it. There no point of having hope. There’s no point in DBing. Might as well just lay it all on the table.
Ugh. I know I’m just panicking. I need to just keep trucking here but it’s getting harder and harder to see why. He’s convinced there’s nothing here for him but climbs into bed and spoons me sex or no sex. I’m so over the mind eff.
Fighting against so much more... doing this on a phone isn’t ideal
Hi wayfarer, an unsettling revelation. Not uncommon, unfortunately, for AP to be a symptom rather than a root cause of them leaving. Deep breaths! It’s amazing you’re fighting in part for a good life for his D. Sending prayers your way.
(((Wayfarer))) I’m so sorry you’re now dealing with this. I so get the frustration. It makes sense that you feel like you’re in panic mode again, but like you say, this feeling of panic will subside, and you’ll be able to check in with yourself again. But I don’t think he’s leaving you just to leave you, even though it may feel that way right now. He’s trying to make it about you, but it’s not. He’s confused and searching for some external thing that will make him happy. The way I see it, he’s not running from you, he’s just running and always has been; the AP was just something concrete he could latch onto. He’s still running toward a fantasy something/someone that will “fix” him.
No matter what he does or says, you are not the root of his problems. OW didn’t work out, so maybe he has to keep running to find out there’s no magical thing/person out there that will make him happy. This doesn’t mean he can run forever.
Vent here—feel the anger, frustration, hurt, all of that, but try not to act out of that place yet. Hope gets drowned out by these emotions, in my experience, but that doesn’t mean it’s gone! Ride this wave. You can do it.
Hey WF,
Thinking of you. Know also that he may feel that he has done so much damage to your R that it is not fixable in his mind right now. I know my H has said this before too-- he can't imagine me ever forgiving him or him ever forgiving himself. There may be that element to it also.
And, your H has bought so deeply into the idea that your M was over that it might not be that easy for him to let go of it... in fact his ego may not let him. Think of it this way-- if his story is that your M wasn't working and wasn't fixable and he turned to the OW, it makes him less of a bad guy for cheating because well your M was doomed anyway. If he admits to himself that the M is fixable, then it makes everything he's done so, so much worse. So by maintaining he's going to leave is also kind of preserving his own sense of self and his vision of why he did what he did. I'm also going to guess there are some control issues going on there-- he wants to make a decision for himself, not bounce back to his W because OW opted out of the A. (And honestly that is still probably for the best, right??? You have said that over and over. He needs to see what he's losing before he'll come around.)
Stick with it, WF. You can totally do this. You're the very best at it. And all the same things still apply that applied before-- you still have the gift of time; marathon not a sprint; actions over words. He hasn't left yet. He's been going through a lot of mental hurricanes in the last couple of weeks. Give him some space and let the storm die down a bit and then see where you are in a week or so.
xx M (((wayfarer)))
Let him run away. You wouldn’t want him the way he is right now anyway. Of course the OW didn’t work out, as expected. One less reason for him to be away, but actually probably pushes him to find other reasons to leave you.
I would advice no sex if he’s telling you he’s going to leave though. So far my method is like Pavlov. If my H brings up D and wants to be physically intimate on the same day? Hell no. If H is acting sane and more his old self, then possibly. Just my 2 cents.
Hugs.
I'm feeling better after I slept on it. To be honest the hit to my ego was pretty hard. And that was the bulk of it. I know logically the break up with OW was recent he's still not himself. There's still detox or withdrawal or whatever. I know logically A or no A he's going through something and I'm still, in his mind, the problem. But being shown not just told "I want us to bang and be best friends but I don't see any merit in this marriage" is just flabbergasting, and was a huge blow to all the self confidence I've been rebuilding. It really, really [censored] being nearly 37 and loving the hell out of someone who will go to extreme measures to not love you back. It has all that horrible desperation of having an unrequited love at 15 but the consequences here are so much bigger than a broken teenage heart. And it never ceases to amaze me that no matter how much you own yourself and let things roll off your back the person you love can say just a few words to you and make you feel so small.
We had no kids home Saturday and Sunday. Saturday we cuddled and had crazy no kids home sex. I'm sure that's what brought on his whole bringing up the apartment thing again just 4 days after asking to push it out. It's like he gets mad at himself if he lets himself get a little too close to me. I'm still very willing to let him go. The push pull is exhausting. Hiding the way I feel and being careful about what I say 24/7 is exhausting. I can't keep feeling exhausted forever. I guess I just let my hopes get up a little too high that maybe I'd get lucky and he'd keep pushing the move out date until he made up his mind and that would get us to June. And in either case, put the girls in a better position for the transition. It was just a reminder I guess that I can't control anything here.
He is running. And he's going to keep running. I just need to accept that he may never stop and turn around and look back, and there's not a single thing I can do if that's the path he's going to take. I need to accept that my fantasy of us coming out on the other side of this together is far narrower possibility than I let myself believe before. And I really need to accept that no matter how much I love him, some day, I'll get over him even it it wasn't as easily as he got over me.
He is running. And he's going to keep running. I just need to accept that he may never stop and turn around and look back, and there's not a single thing I can do if that's the path he's going to take. I need to accept that my fantasy of us coming out on the other side of this together is far narrower possibility than I let myself believe before. And I really need to accept that no matter how much I love him, some day, I'll get over him even it it wasn't as easily as he got over me.
Yes he is running, he got spooked again, he’s gone back to his safe place because right now he is frightened of his feelings. He is confused and doesn’t understand what he is feeling. Ground yourself and don’t think the worst. I know this isn’t easy, to retain an optimistic perspective when you’ve just been crushed to pieces. He needs time, you need time, and you have that. Don’t make any rash decisions or rash interactions. Just keep yourself calm and in a safe place because that is what he needs to see. He is like a kite in a hurricane at the moment. Hugs x
I just re-read the lighthouse story. I find it always helps ground me when I feel helpless or over-emotional .
One day at a time. Keep up the positive changes. Focus on you and your personal growth. Focus on what you have control over. Double down on your DBing. Embrace the push/pull. Be seductive.
HUGS
I know how it kills the ego. But you just have to remember this isn't about you, not at all. it is all about him. He is confused and scared and ping-ponging all over the place. Honestly it makes absolute sense that after a day of being super close he backs away. You can't let it get to you.
You've come a long way. Go back and look at your first posts, or your early journals, or whatever... there are so many improvements. Maybe the biggest next thing H needs to understand is that his fantasy of unmarried best friends with benefits is just that, a fantasy. You might consider closing up the muffin shop again, double down on GALing, being flirty and positive when you're together but mysterious. (I am quite bad at being mysterious. But I know I read some stories on your thread where you came back late and he was clearly wondering where you'd been. so I think you can pull the mysterious vibe off. Also, I like the idea of a confident, sexy, mysterious wayfinder strolling out the door looking hot and H thinking F**K.)
So I never stopped not being the one to start a convo. It's something I've stuck with throughout this. And I mean any convo. Not just R talks. I will not speak until spoken to first, with the exception of kids and bills. Last night when I went to lay down and after talking to my bff who I swear says everything May says just in her way, lol, I was still feeling a little raw, but just kinda of different. Like I had a better handle on my pain and realizing this man I love is in his own pain. He made this huge mistake, and risked everything, and it fell flat. And worst of all not only did it fall flat it fell flat exactly the way I said it would when screaming at him when all this started. AND it happened just a couple weeks short of the day I asked to not speak about our relationship until. He broke his own heart, he had his heart broken, and worst of all, and he said this yesterday, not the worst of all part, but I was right, because I'm always right. Laying there I felt like I had to let him know that I was empathetic. I just sent a simple text that said "FWIW I'm not sorry she went back to him, but I am really sorry that you were hurt like that. I hope you know that. Goodnight."
I had a lot of off campus meetings this morning. I was gone all day. I didn't even check my phone. I got a text at lunch time that said, 'FYI Not sure if your care or not but the OW situation emotionally messed me up pretty good." I responded with that it's hard sometimes, but I care a lot that he's hurting. I'm always here to listen, and that I've been all of us in this mess at one time or another. I understand what he's going through better than most. He asked if we could talk about it tonight...funnily enough no we can't. I have GAL stuff and work stuff tonight. So I told him I'd set some time aside for him if he'd like me to later in the week and he said that would be nice. I'm a little worried about what I'm going to be subjecting myself to offering to be there for him. I'm just hoping I can keep enough space between me wayfarer the betrayed wife and me wayfarer WH's friend and reformed cheater for my sanity and emotional well being. I know it's counter intuitive to be his soft place to fall after what he's done but I feel like this is how I'm going to get the answers I want about the A with out being a cop about it, and this is a way to show him that I'm not the person he's made up in his head justifying what he's done.
You’re a lot nice than I am in that regard. I can’t imagine showing compassion to my H if he’s heartbroken over OW not working out.
Well the OW and A convo didn't go exactly the way I anticipated. He back pedaled again on the 'I'm moving out ASAP' thing. This 'there's nothing in this marriage for me' shtick is some kind of reactionary statement but I have no clue what the reaction is to yet. But that's neither here nor there I guess. He at first said he didn't feel like talking about it. Then out of no where asked if it would be ok if he took a trip by himself in early April. He'd like to clear his head. I told him I think that's a great idea, but there won't be any of this radio silence stuff. He'll have to check in with me and the girls so I know he's not dead. And then he wanted to talk about things.
So OW did go on a trip the week of Valentines. I had joked with my bff that she must be on vacation since he was home so much, so nice and engaged. I was right unfortunately. But things were changing before that. He hadn't thought about it really, until I said are you totally sure that her ending this was really that out of the blue. I didn't mention that I'm basing this entirely on how he was behaving around the house and with the kids. He sat and thought about it, and some things came to mind that she had said or done or didn't do or didn't say and he started to piece together that maybe she wasn't all in until the 11th hour as anticipated. She came back from this trip on the 15th and told him she'd be busy the next week with midterm projects and papers. (Just to be clear this is a soon to be 35 year old. With no kids, and was not supporting her parents and siblings financially, not in a majorly lucrative career where education wasn't need. She just apparently never got around to school until now.....) I did mention to him that that isn't when mid terms are. So then he really started putting things together. The night before H and slept together, the night he fell asleep in the bed with me when we were talking was the beginning of the end I guess. It's why he was home so early. And still very much put together. And he was texting me. He had brought up apartment hunting the next day as they had planned and she told him that she's not where he's at with this and that she wouldn't be going with him to do that. That she was still very much in love with her bf and she was seriously wondering if the whole thing was a huge mistake. He dropped her off started texting me and came home. The next morning he woke up to a super long text basically saying she loves her bf, she wants to be with him, this whole thing was a huge mistake, her being with him wasn't fair, because she never stopped loving her bf. She's sorry it went this far. But she's got to follow her heart, which was in no way with H. That was the night he decided to sleep with me. H was/is absolutely devastated. He said he had rested all his hopes on this future and I wanted to cry. Not because of what this did to me, but because I knew exactly how he felt. My AP didn't even choose his live in gf over me. He chose his ex over both me and his gf. It was so humiliating. I was also so angry with OW for the first time. So, so mad. My H is at fault here, I know this. But she blew up a family and a marriage to fill some needs and to make her bf jealous enough to come back. Who does that?? There are teenage girls watching this whole sh*tshow, and all of this was for her to get her bf to act right for a few months? My god.
We had a lengthy talk about how if it wasn't OW none of this would've ever happened. H and I were friends for a long time before we were together. Full disclosure, we started as FWB I had finally started dating again after leaving my D's father, and while the dates were nice, I wasn't really finding that physicaly chemistry with many if any of them at all. H and I kept running into each other out at night and one night I just went home with him and it was down hill from there. We were both dating around. Caught feelings and moved forward. I knew about 2 of the girls he was seeing. I didn't know the 3rd. He knew none of the guys I was seeing but knew they existed. Lovely lady number 3 who wasn't me was OW. I didn't know that until last night. He felt like all of this was fate. That this all happened because he had made the wrong choice 7 years ago picking me over her and this was the universe's way of making it all right. They planned a whole future together in a few short months, and at no point did he question the sanity or the fantasy factor of this plan. He is and was a hopeless romantic and affair fog or not he truly saw this star crossed lovers mess as the way his life was supposed to unfold. And in one fell swoop she pulled the rug out from him, he landed flat on his a** and there I was. Again, and as always.
He won't commit to the marriage yet. He wants to make sure he's making the right choice. Not just for him, or so he says, but because he doesn't want to put me through this all over again. He wants to make a clear headed decision. And I fully support that. I did let him know that I need a similar trip since I've been holding our lives down while he went chasing his soulmate and future. Yesterday was the first time I felt he was actually remorseful and gave a damn about what he's put me through. And our girls. He said I should plan my trip. He would hold it down and give me the time and space that I want and need the way I'm giving him his. I told him I am truly sorry he's hurting. That regardless of how I'm feeling about him and her, being ready to risk everything for someone to have them look back at you, wave good bye and act as if you can just back pedal the way they can is truly messed up. We then slept together again.I asked him to go sleep on the couch because I need some time to decompress after all of that. He complied with out question. I don't know what the hell I'm doing any more at this point. It's certainly not DBing. It's not really pursuing either. I don't understand how the acute pain you feel in crisis is so different and almost seems more manageable than this constant dull ache of WTF is my life right now feeling of being in limbo.
Dang, girl! Drama!
He back pedaled again on the 'I'm moving out ASAP' thing. This 'there's nothing in this marriage for me' shtick is some kind of reactionary statement but I have no clue what the reaction is to yet.
This is interesting. It is like his safe place he retreats to. Good reminder to believe nothing of what they say.
He won't commit to the marriage yet. He wants to make sure he's making the right choice. Not just for him, or so he says, but because he doesn't want to put me through this all over again. He wants to make a clear headed decision. And I fully support that. I did let him know that I need a similar trip since I've been holding our lives down while he went chasing his soulmate and future. Yesterday was the first time I felt he was actually remorseful and gave a damn about what he's put me through. And our girls. He said I should plan my trip. He would hold it down and give me the time and space that I want and need the way I'm giving him his. I told him I am truly sorry he's hurting. That regardless of how I'm feeling about him and her, being ready to risk everything for someone to have them look back at you, wave good bye and act as if you can just back pedal the way they can is truly messed up. We then slept together again.I asked him to go sleep on the couch because I need some time to decompress after all of that. He complied with out question. I don't know what the hell I'm doing any more at this point. It's certainly not DBing. It's not really pursuing either. I don't understand how the acute pain you feel in crisis is so different and almost seems more manageable than this constant dull ache of WTF is my life right now feeling of being in limbo.
Honestly... I think this is all seems like a step in the right direction. I wouldn't think you would want him to commit to the M right away after the breakup with OW anyway-- he does need time and space and a clear head. Looking back at my own sitch (so so weird we're all in such similar spaces right now) it took my H five weeks to decide to commit to the M (in his mind at least, I know it may not be permanent) from when the $hit totally hit the fan and he confessed the full extent of the A to when he left on his trip saying he was ending it. My H wanted something different-- asked for the DC/MC rather than a trip during that flavor of limbo-- but I think the space part is really important and just like Pommy's H and mine they need to be able to make that choice themselves in their own time and with a clear head. Otherwise you can't really trust it.
How do you give him space then between now and early April when he takes his trip? Both for him and for YOU? I think that one of the reasons limbo feels so awful is that you're not DOING anything (Ms. Type A) and in the crisis you can just buckle down and mentally prepare yourself to move on, as hard as that is. Now you don't know what to prepare yourself for and both paths are going to be f-ing difficult. But, the one thing that both paths need is a healthy wayfinder who knows she'll be OK no matter what happens. Can you continue to cultivate your zen/patient/detached attitude and GAL yourself into exhaustion? A month feels like a long time but really isn't all that long in the grand scheme of things. (I've been thinking about this too, maybe just not pushing on wanting to know more about the A until the beginning of April, give my H some time to detach mentally from the AP before we go there. I am imagining everything she touched as being contaminated and dirty and I want those things out of our lives or to Lysol the heck out of them before we move past the A... but my H just isn't ready for that yet.)
It’s been a weird night. We had parent teacher conferences for D15. And then grabbing things for a small dinner tomorrow. We’re Mexican American so we do quince big. But 16 needs to be acknowledged. Things felt very normal except the random back and forth comments. One minute being very about moving out. Next speaking like we’re going on infinitely. I was on the verge of tears multiple times because he doesn’t even realize how quickly he’s ping ponging. But still so normal. Even when he started to tell me more things he thought about today about OW not being as in as he thought. I appreciate that he wants to share the inner him again and that he heard me yesterday. But it worries me that he may have built this relationship up far more than it was.
May, no I wouldn’t want him to. It would feel forced or very like heavily plan b. Even if I don’t 100% buy into the plan b thing. We are still living our lives separately but I’m encouraging him to reconnect with a friend or two that walked away during this affair situation. He rarely leaves the house now. So it makes my at home GAL difficult but I’m trying to stay busy. I take up my space if I need it. He walks away when he needs it. I just need to work on finding my zen again. It just falls bank into this he’s tumbling through these phases so quickly I struggle to adjust in time. I think I need to work in more mindful practices. And I think I’m going to have to insist on weekly IC. And as always work on patience.
(((Wayfarer))) You’ve had a rough few days and need a bit of time to re-center yourself—you will. I worry that it’s not cool for you to continuously listen to him dissect the dissolution of the OW R, like you’re his buddy there to help him figure out what went wrong. Is this starting to contribute to the sense of imbalance? You’re a bada** woman, so set that boundary if you need to!
(((Wayfarer))) You’ve had a rough few days and need a bit of time to re-center yourself—you will. I worry that it’s not cool for you to continuously listen to him dissect the dissolution of the OW R, like you’re his buddy there to help him figure out what went wrong. Is this starting to contribute to the sense of imbalance? You’re a bada** woman, so set that boundary if you need to!
Honestly letting him talk about OW and A doesn't bother me in the least. If he goes too far I say so and he backs off. Letting him purge about her gives me all the things I want to know without ever having to ask. All this is on his terms so he doesn't feel like I'm being intrusive. I get to have the closure on that dumpster fire chapter of my life with out putting any pressure on him. Which is not something I ever thought would happen. The only pressure may come if he decides he wants back in on the MR fully, he's gotta get rid of every option to contact her, and all the trinkets from their relationship.
The part that I'm struggling to detach through is this new fun ping ponging where it isn't really day by day. It's legit hour by hour. And I know that's coming from the messed up head space he's in right now. I'm trying to keep cool about it. Be empathetic. And just let it ride because I know I still can't trust what he says. I can only trust what he does. And if I look at Pommy's sitch I don't even know if I can fully trust what he does. Signing a lease seems all well and good until it's not. So who knows. It was much easier with him checked out most of the time. Even angry checked out, as bad as that messed me and the energy in our house up it's nothing like this. His chaotic a** energy throws me off in large doses. There isn't enough prayer, crystals, sage, holy water, saint medallions, candles, or physical distance in the world to neutralize what he's putting off right now. Honestly I think that's what going to be the hardest part to deal with between here and May. Finding an adequate amount of time and space away, as well as a way to recenter when I can't get all the time and space I need like this week because we have family musts with school stuff and a birthday.
The part that I'm struggling to detach through is this new fun ping ponging where it isn't really day by day. It's legit hour by hour. And I know that's coming from the messed up head space he's in right now. I'm trying to keep cool about it. Be empathetic. And just let it ride because I know I still can't trust what he says. I can only trust what he does. And if I look at Pommy's sitch I don't even know if I can fully trust what he does. Signing a lease seems all well and good until it's not. So who knows. It was much easier with him checked out most of the time. Even angry checked out, as bad as that messed me and the energy in our house up it's nothing like this. His chaotic a** energy throws me off in large doses.
Ugh WF, I feel like we’re on the same merry go-round. Actually maybe not a merry go round but more like the waltzers (do you have those - spin one way, then spin the next...over and over ...till you can’t see straight, think straight , with a churning stomach to boot) . I am trying to let EVERYTHING slide over my head. The positive comments, the negative ones, the actions. I remember May telling me “walk away in your head”. It has been working I think. I now have a photograph of a lighthouse on the lock screen of my phone, on which I’ve written ‘Stop the Hurting. Every time I feel like picking up my phone to see if he’s texted, or thinking about texting him, I see this and move on as best I can.
Re the hurtful things you are hearing, yes this is hard, but like you I feel like I need to hear this. (I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had to hear my husband tell me he’s not attracted to me sexually, but he still has desires, just not for me). But I do believe whatever the outcome there will come a time when he will remember the awful things you had to hear and how you calmly sat back and listened and didn’t judge. And for that you can hold your head high and know that you acted with class and dignity. That’s a hard act for any OW to follow. As the vets say, you are acting as a woman any man would be a fool to leave. {{hugs}}
Ugh WF, I feel like we’re on the same merry go-round. Actually maybe not a merry go round but more like the waltzers (do you have those - spin one way, then spin the next...over and over ...till you can’t see straight, think straight , with a churning stomach to boot) . I am trying to let EVERYTHING slide over my head. The positive comments, the negative ones, the actions. I remember May telling me “walk away in your head”. It has been working I think. I now have a photograph of a lighthouse on the lock screen of my phone, on which I’ve written ‘Stop the Hurting. Every time I feel like picking up my phone to see if he’s texted, or thinking about texting him, I see this and move on as best I can.
Re the hurtful things you are hearing, yes this is hard, but like you I feel like I need to hear this. (I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve had to hear my husband tell me he’s not attracted to me sexually, but he still has desires, just not for me). But I do believe whatever the outcome there will come a time when he will remember the awful things you had to hear and how you calmly sat back and listened and didn’t judge. And for that you can hold your head high and know that you acted with class and dignity. That’s a hard act for any OW to follow. As the vets say, you are acting as a woman any man would be a fool to leave. {{hugs}}
I love it when you're super British. It's the cutest thing ever. We do have waltzers we call them tilt-a-whirls here. I don't feel like I'm on a merry go round or a tilt a whirl. It's so much more like the roller coaster analogy. We have flown through all the steps of this mess so quickly we haven't really been circling round and round in place for very long any where. We just keep chugging along and I keep holding on tight for the big drops and the loops, and he's sure to throw me a new one every week. Or multiple a week. I just would very much like to be on the log flume ride or like a lazy river type deal at this point.
I think I do very much need the walk away in my head advice right now. I can go days with speaking to H. But I've come to realize something my friend said. I'm H's person. And at some point he'll figure it out. He just hasn't yet. That's why even though he had OW to talk to he still wanted to talk to me and followed me around to do so. Even though he had OW to watch shows and movies with he still wanted to watch certain shows and movies with me. It's why he'd try to mask the places he'd gone and the things he had done with OW that he really enjoyed so he could tell me about this awesome thing he did or saw or ate. Because he can't not talk to me. Have me as his sounding board. Have me as his friend. His mouth keeps saying I'm more than happy to live with out you. But his actions say I don't know how. And I need to learn how to just mentally check out when he's giving me these diametrically opposing signals.
My new therapist said I'm going through this with a lot of grace. I had a friend say the same thing to me. That I'm walking though this with grace. I don't feel like I am. I don't feel classy. Most of the time I don't feel particularly dignified being in this position. I feel like I'm just trying to survive another really trying time in my life with out breaking under the weight of it. And this time I'm carrying two nearly women, instead of a little girl, or just me. I so often feel like I'm just not enough for him and that's why he wants to walk away so badly. I feel like the fool more often than not. But I do hope that my girls, or H at some point here can see that optimistic view of me in the middle of this mess. As that woman any man would be a fool to leave. Thank you Pommy. I need that boost.
But I've come to realize something my friend said. I'm H's person. And at some point he'll figure it out. He just hasn't yet. That's why even though he had OW to talk to he still wanted to talk to me and followed me around to do so. Even though he had OW to watch shows and movies with he still wanted to watch certain shows and movies with me. It's why he'd try to mask the places he'd gone and the things he had done with OW that he really enjoyed so he could tell me about this awesome thing he did or saw or ate. Because he can't not talk to me. Have me as his sounding board. Have me as his friend. His mouth keeps saying I'm more than happy to live with out you. But his actions say I don't know how. And I need to learn how to just mentally check out when he's giving me these diametrically opposing signals.
Hey WF, this is so my H too. I'm coming to learn that a number of things he introduced to me-- bands, an NPR show, apps-- are things he got from AP. It all feels dirty to me right now but also I really enjoy some of these things. (I just want to mentally Lysol it all.) I would take it for what it is and yes, mentally check out. I know this is NOT validating but I kind of perfected (during the worst of him telling me how much in love they were) eye contact, nodding, looking like I'm listening, and actually just repeating WTF inside my head, or focusing on telling myself to check out, calm down, reacting right now won't help anything, trying to slow down my breath consciously until I was calm again.
My new therapist said I'm going through this with a lot of grace. I had a friend say the same thing to me. That I'm walking though this with grace.
I think you are handling all of this with an enormous amount of grace and class. You should hold your head up high. You're amazing.