Perils of piecing - thread 8 - DivorceBusting.com

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This is my old thread:

https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...ain=62352&Number=2883601#Post2883601

And here is a summary of my situation. In Spring 18 I discovered H in a short lived but very intense EA. We spent the summer in MC - I forced him into it - and he continued to have contact with EA woman, lie about it, and refused to talk about his responsibilities or what we wanted for his / our future. He was going through significant work stress at the time, behaving like a nasty bully and it felt like someone had kidnapped him and replaced him with a monster. Things got worse and worse, his behaviour more and more emotionally and verbally abusive, until he moved out at my instigation in Jan 19. We spent a couple of months trying to 'connect' and do family time but he was still being fairly consistently verbally abusive so I went dark (we have two kids so I couldn't really do NC) in the late spring. A couple of months later, he had a minor turnaround and recommitted to the relationship, got into IC and a couple of months after that, he came home. He says he has been completely transparent about the EA and has no contact with her now. He had made some apologies but still gets angry if I am upset about the past or the way he has treated me.

Things have improved in several key areas: his verbal and emotional abuse of me has decreased to almost nothing, and when he does start on me I stick up for myself swiftly and strongly and he usually responds to that by stopping. I have lots more GAL and support than I ever did. He's more generous and connected with our Eldest (they don't get on and difficulties in parenting styles was a massive part of our breakdown) though that's still in progress. He's transparent about his comings and goings and is generally where he says he's going to be, though I don't keep tabs on him. He has no friends, social life or hobbies and probably drinks too much. Things are cool between us - he complains and whines a lot, I struggle to validate his two-year long pity party. He's given up IC and hasn't really sought meaningful help about his depression / stress / anxiety. I'm in IC and have been for nearly three years.

Where am I today? Well - my head is a bit crazy if I am honest.

I feel on edge and on guard the whole time. Waiting for H to be mean or cold or distant or rude or disappointing in some way. Afraid this is my life from now on. I can leave him and hurt the kids, or stay here and slowly suffocate due to lack of love and affection. I feel extremely angry at him. Hurt. Abandoned. It feels cruel for him to say he wants to come home and be a family again then basically act like we're cordial roommates. I've had some very good work news and I can't really take pleasure in it. I told H and he didn't respond except to say he had no idea whether I wanted him to be pleased for me or not and no idea how he should be reacting. He's the same if I come to him with negative feelings or events that I'd like help and support with. He says very clearly he wants our marriage to be close and supportive. He doesn't seem to know how I should or can support him (he prefers time alone) and clearly has no idea how to connect with me. I have communicated clearly. 'I am feeling a little blue today and what would help is if you could hold me and tell me you love me,' - his response is to either change the subject, say he won't be controlled, or say he can't do it now I've told him to do it because it's just playing a part. I leave him alone most of the time. I have good friends who care for me instead. I am so frustrated. There's no natural human response there - he's just trying to work out whatever it is he needs to say (to what? make me happy? he knows I am not happy and I've been clear about what I need) and provide that. I feel like I am a task or a duty. I don't feel loved or wanted. Today I am very sad and panicky feeling. My marriage has been so difficult for so long and I am not sure that throwing in the towel is going to make me substantially happier: if I want closeness and connection then opting to live alone and go NC isn't the route towards that.

I am tired. I am going to bury myself in work today.

Hi Alison,

I have not been following your sitch, just read you last post.

Definitely frustrating when two people speak different love languages and your partner does not know how to meet your needs. As a man, I can relate to your husband. As a long time DBer, I can relate you you. I know my lady wants what you are asking from your husband. It is not natural for me, but I do it because I know it is what she needs. How do you get your H to understand this? I believe it goes back to doing things that are counter-intuitive. You point blank told him what you needed. Is this working?

Doesn't sound like it. So what other options do you have? Maybe an example from my life can help you think of new ways.

Lately, my lady is frustrated with my lack of "helping with the dishes". In the morning, I brush off all the snow on her car, start it so it is warm for her. When she has been saying thank you, I say "My pleasure, thank you for taking care of the dishes". I can tell with this new way of responding to her, that she is less frustrated about the dishes thing.

What are the two of you doing for fun together? I have a standing "Date night" (or two) every week. No R talk. We go out and see live music or she sings karaoke.

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I feel extremely angry at him. Hurt. Abandoned.

Totally understandable. How do you let this go? Are these feelings helping you get closer? I have to work hard at forgiveness all the time. I tell myself, fix me. Change the way I am interacting. goggle radical forgiveness. Very good thought process.

I memorized this quote a while back: "Change the way you interact, forces a change in the relationship." Helps me make things better.

What needs of his are you meeting? What needs of his are you not meeting? I am still not a big fan of words, but if needed ,can you reflect his words back to him. " I did this, not because I wanted to, but because I understand your needs ...."

I fall back on "the art of seduction" and do things that are not natural for me, but they work, so I do them. More natural for me now.

I wish you well.

HUGS

Thank you for that generous and kind reply, ReadytoChange.

Do you mind if I ask you a few questions? My aim here is not to criticise you at all, but just get a better understanding. I wonder if there's a different way of understanding my H's behaviour that I am missing and you - if you were willing - might help me to find it. I will answer your questions and perhaps ask a couple of my own?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

How do you get your H to understand this? I believe it goes back to doing things that are counter-intuitive. You point blank told him what you needed.

I did. So I don't think this is not that my H does not understand. He's not a stupid man and we have had frank conversations where I feel that he has computed the meaning of what I am saying.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Lately, my lady is frustrated with my lack of "helping with the dishes". In the morning, I brush off all the snow on her car, start it so it is warm for her. When she has been saying thank you, I say "My pleasure, thank you for taking care of the dishes". I can tell with this new way of responding to her, that she is less frustrated about the dishes thing.

This sounds like a familiar dynamic. If I might ask a question? If what would matter to her is having help with the dishes, why not do that? They're your dishes too, right? Why insist on Not Doing Them and turn a thank you into a passive aggressive reminder that you're also doing your share in other ways? Why not leave her to do the car herself, as she might care about that less, and speak to her in her language rather than insist she learn to receive love in the way you feel like giving it?

I am a physical touch and words of affirmation woman. We have done the 5LL quiz together. My H is acts of service. I make him packed lunches, make him coffees, make sure he always has ironed shirts in his wardrobes and I do his laundry and put it away without him ever having to wonder where it is or how it got back into his drawers. He knows my love languages. I'd rather he looked me in the eyes, touched my hair and said something sweet to me than he scrape the windscreen on my car. But he insists on scraping the windscreen (then complains about doing it - possibly because he doesn't find me grateful enough) because that's what makes sense to him.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

What are the two of you doing for fun together? I have a standing "Date night" (or two) every week. No R talk. We go out and see live music or she sings karaoke.

This is really an area we could improve on. We're going out together this Friday night - first time in several weeks - since before Christmas, anyway. I hope if we leave R talk and parenting talk to one side we still have something left to talk about.

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I feel extremely angry at him. Hurt. Abandoned.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

What needs of his are you meeting? What needs of his are you not meeting?

He tells me very often he needs more time than he gets alone. We both tend to work during the day, though he has some evening and weekend work and I don't. In the morning we rise together, breakfast, take care of the kids. I take Youngest kid to school and go to work. We both arrive home roughly at the same time (I collect Youngest from after school care). We take turns in cooking. Both kids clean up after dinner - that's their chore and they're good about doing it. H will put Youngest to bed while I supervise Eldest in homework or spend some time with him. That takes us to about 8-9pm. H prefers to spend the next few hours wearing headphones, watching television and eating. I go and have GAL or read or craft in another room. He gets ratty if I disturb him. His only request is for quiet and time alone and time to pursue his interests. I am clearly not meeting that need, but short of throwing him back out to his flat I am not sure how I could do more.

He's also expressed a wish for mornings and evenings (when the kids are around) to be quieter and more organised. I generally do most of the household administrative type work and school pick ups and drop offs. He makes breakfast. There's very little shouting or arguing - sometimes Youngest has to be told a time or two to get her stuff together. I have asked specifically about what he wants from me in this area and he hasn't been able to clarify. I think he finds being around his family stressful and he'd like me to fix that for him in some way.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

I am still not a big fan of words, but if needed ,can you reflect his words back to him. " I did this, not because I wanted to, but because I understand your needs ...."

Yes - that's a good idea and in the past I have tried to to exactly that. It angers him: he says it is a manipulative technique that proves I only do nice things for him because I am trying to 'extract' (his words) some form of love and affection from him. He said this in front of our MC a long time ago and she didn't seem to take him up on it so I am presuming his attitude here is reasonable, though it didn't feel like it to me at the time.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I wonder if there's a different way of understanding my H's behaviour that I am missing and you - if you were willing - might help me to find it.

I believe that is the reason I posted.

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As far as the car, she actually wakes me up, asks me to help her. She is small and always cold. I am larger and hardly ever cold. I said thanks in a flirty way. I am a rinse the dishes off and load the dishwasher immediately type guy. When I am cooking, my dishes are always done before I eat. As long as there are no other dishes in the sink or on the counter, I will rinse and put them in the dishwasher. Of course I have put the dirty dishes in with the clean ones in the past because I thought we were loading vs someone didn't unload. Oops. I was told I was looking extremely sexy this weekend when I was vacuuming the house. I don't do it very often, but did it on my own because I had the time and I wanted to get it done my way. I like doing the baseboards and they get skipped a lot with teens.

I believe it comes down to efficiencies and agreements. My buddy never cooks, but always does the dishes. Works for them. ....maybe

Ultimately it comes down to the one with the strongest need to get something done. I think big issues happen when one person is focused on taking care of things and the other is focused on relaxing.

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I am a physical touch and words of affirmation woman. We have done the 5LL quiz together. My H is acts of service. I make him packed lunches, make him coffees, make sure he always has ironed shirts in his wardrobes and I do his laundry and put it away without him ever having to wonder where it is or how it got back into his drawers. He knows my love languages. I'd rather he looked me in the eyes, touched my hair and said something sweet to me than he scrape the windscreen on my car. But he insists on scraping the windscreen (then complains about doing it - possibly because he doesn't find me grateful enough) because that's what makes sense to him.

He definitely needs more training.

W:"How would you feel if I stopped making you lunches and taking care of your laundry?"
H:"Bla bla bla"
W:"Well that is exactly how I feel when you do not hold me"

another option is boundaries.

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He tells me very often he needs more time than he gets alone.....H prefers to spend the next few hours wearing headphones, watching television and eating.......His only request is for quiet and time alone and time to pursue his interests.

There is a balance. I need my time alone and my lady needs our time together. She wants to share her day with me and I want to get 15 things done and relax. I am sure she wants me to share my day (talk about). The last thing I want to is relive it. I would rather talk about the future and plans.

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It angers him: he says it is a manipulative technique that proves I only do nice things for him because I am trying to 'extract' (his words) some form of love and affection from him

Sounds like you have your hands full.

W"Nope. Just the opposite"

Relationships are hard work. Trying to fill the others love bucket and communicating how we need ours filled. I consumed 2-3 books a week for several years. I had to fight my natural instincts and act outside my comfort zone a lot. I did not make it to piecing with my X. I can't imagine how hard that part of the process is.

R2C has lots of great advice there. I think too that doing some fun new things together would do your R a power of good. And a lot more frequently! I recently took up playing pool, I am terrible but really enjoy doing it and the kids like beating me. I laugh a lot when we play pool. Even H laughs if we play pool together with the kids, and he has barely laughed since BD. Try something new and something which you can do together, even better if you have to do it as a team (like an escape room or something). You guys desperately need to warm things up and inject some playfulness into your M, otherwise it's just everyday drudgery and chores and childcare and you both feel critical and like your needs aren't being met. Focus on the positives

When we were headed on vacation, I made a point to ask each person what was important to them. I would express what was important to me. We all then had to be accommodating.

I think it is the same in a relationship. Ask a few simple questions. Listen to understand the other person. Express your needs. Listen to see if they understand.

W:"Would you like to spend time with me this weekend?"
H:"bla bla bla"

Translate his answer to Yes or no. Respond accordingly:
Yes(Keep probing): " What sounds fun to you?"
No(have an idea what you want) " " I think I will go to the beach. You are welcome to join me if you change your mind"

Thanks for these suggestions, friends. I think they have a lot of truth. When I try to look at our situation with the eyes of a calmer outsider, I see two scared and hurt people who lack skills to speak the other's love language, and are generally resentful about that fact. My H has the emotional maturity of a teenager sometimes (but then again so do I) but I do see him trying in his Acts of Service way and feeling resentful and hurt when it doesn't have the response he imagines it should do. As do I. He's actually emailed me the details of several MCs this week - in about three different emails - and I've not responded. That's immature of me.

We did go out last night - just for a meal somewhere local. Eldest at home with friends and Youngest having a sleepover elsewhere. We were both tired and had to make a conscious effort not to only talk about work / the kids / weekly practical planning / money. I guess I've been so used to being DARK for so long that it's actually really counter intuitive for me to engage with him in a more real an intimate way - as I do with my friends.

I think what would help is trying to count the positives, and show gratitude for his Acts of Service. Today I went out with some girlfriends for coffee and while I was out H did some housework and also went out for a walk one on one with Eldest. That's pretty much unheard of but they were both in good spirits when I came back and I think some healing is happening there that I need to leave space for and trust them to deal with it themselves.

A couple of days ago we also had a very positive conversation around some parenting conflict. H was asking Eldest about something, Eldest was being evasive, H was being insistent and I leapt in and tried to shut it down. H wasn't doing anything unreasonable or behaving as he has in the past - with the mean attitude - but I was afraid that was going to happen, felt anxious, and tried to head it off at the pass. A couple of hours later H came to me and asked if we could talk, he outlined how he felt in a respectful way, and asked me not to do it again. He said he needed to find his own feet as a parent and I could really see his point. He was right, so I apologised to him and made sure that Eldest heard me do it. When I think how things were at the start of last year, this is astonishing progress.

I seem to have booked myself in for some GAL pretty much every night this coming week. I need it: I work hard and I am involved closely with my kids and I think I have a touch of seasonal blues: really really tired of it being dark in the mornings and evenings. Have also booked some GAL with H. He will have plenty of evenings on his own this week and I hope we will have one together.

Why haven't you responded about the MC? The rest of it sounds positive, particularly the bit about your H articulating what he needed from you with Eldest. Maybe there's hope for him yet

I empathise with the being sick of winter, but spring is inching closer, I found daffodills in my garden today

Originally Posted by dillydaf

Why haven't you responded about the MC? The rest of it sounds positive, particularly the bit about your H articulating what he needed from you with Eldest. Maybe there's hope for him yet

I empathise with the being sick of winter, but spring is inching closer, I found daffodills in my garden today

I need to think about this, so thank you for asking.

I guess our last experience of it was awful. Two years ago now, and in the immediate aftermath of me discovering his EA. I sat there either silent, or crying, or raging. H generally wanted to outline to me how his infidelity and abusive behaviour was my fault. The MC advised I should leave him alone and see my friends more because he was clearly too angry to engage with me. She never once challenged him on his blame or abusive behaviours (he was verbally abusive to me in front of her) and this seemed to give him the green light - we only went eight times over two / three months - and I did force him to go under the threat of divorce so what did I expect - but many many many times since then he's said that if his behaviours were abusive, the therapist would have called him out on it. He doesn't do that any more, but all in all it wasn't a helpful experience and probably hindered things. Looking back, it was wrong of me to force him into therapy. I should have thrown him out and gone totally dark on him until the EA was over, he'd worked on his anger and come back ready to work on things.

But here we are. I do believe he wants to work on things and doesn't want to behave as he has. He is trying, and he slips back into old habits when tired or stressed or feeling threatened. As do I. I do want to work on things too. And I don't think either of us know how to. And there's so little trust between us - understandably enough. So we'd be prime candidates for MC. I am dragging my heels about it because I can't bear one more session of listen to him whine about how his hard feelings are my fault, or criticise me for approaching things differently to him, or minimise his abuse and emphasise my shortcomings. I just don't want to hear it. And I suspect if we are to get the most of out MC I will need to STFU and listen to more of that tripe before we get to the more constructive parts. And I just really really really don't want to. I've wasted enough of my prime listening to a grown man whining.

Alison ~

Having gone through 2 rounds of unsuccessful MC myself, I share your lack of trust in the process.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

if we are to get the most of out MC I will need to STFU and listen to more of that tripe before we get to the more constructive parts

I took this same approach in MC. What happened is that I felt like my concerns were minimized and my W's concerns took center stage.

Maybe if you do go to MC, you can share your concerns up front about how MC went before. I certainly don't think "STFU and listen" is a healthy approach for you to take. You will end up frustrated with the process.

Alison- about the doing the dishes part- reminds me of a great book called �Fair Play� by Eve Rodsky. Not sure if it will help you, the book basically shows how to divide up the everyday workload of a M from a project management standpoint. Ex. The spouse who has the �weekly dinner� card would be responsible for the whole thing: conception, planning, and execution.

Might be fun to play the �game� for you guys just to try it out.

I�m happy for you that you and your H are piecing. Although reading your thread I understand that it�s still hard work if not even harder than before. Good luck!!

Originally Posted by wooba

I�m happy for you that you and your H are piecing. Although reading your thread I understand that it�s still hard work if not even harder than before. Good luck!!

I will look into this book - thank you!

We don't - as a rule - have much conflict around housework. I'd say I have more of the 'mental load' in some aspects of our lives, and he in others. I think we both do about 50/50. There are some minor annoyances - he's never lifted an iron in his life (but then again, I don't have much to do with servicing the car) and I generally manage money though we both earn it and have our own accounts. I'd say in that aspect of our lives we are in pretty much harmonious relationship. And I think we'd both agree that when we start sniping at each other over housework it's a sign of something else going wrong. H was incredibly critical over the most minor domestic thing before he left - it was wearing and unnecessary and tipped over into bullying lots of the time. But he never does that any more and would get short shrift if he did.

Weekly update. I am so glad that Yail suggested this.

So - we have had a better week. I mentioned H has been suggesting marriage therapists to me - emailing me their contents - and I haven't responded. Got a gentle challenge about that from Dilly (thank you) so I let him know I had the emails, would look at the counsellors and have a think, and could we make a decision at the weekend. So that feels better. I do want to be clear with the counsellor - in front of H - what my reluctance is about. I think I will frame this in a more positive, less critical way.

I guess these are my thoughts: 'I don't want to pay for the pleasure of listening to you whine and blame everything that's wrong with you, your life and our marriage on me. I'm bored of that.'

And a more positive way would be, 'our situation has been going on a long time. I think I understand the aspects of our marriage and lives together that aren't satisfactory to you. I'm here because I'd like to hear what specifics you want to change, and to work together to make that happen.'

Does that sound okay?

Other than that, I don't have much to report. We've been passing each other like ships in the night due to my work and GAL and his schedule, but that seems fine. He's been a little more affectionate that usual and checks in with me via text during the day. I feel a bit drained and wrung-out, but that's nothing to do with my H, it is because I am having a heavy time at work and it has been winter for at least a thousand years.

hi Alison (hoping I am welcome

):

Just a thought about the MC.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

And a more positive way would be, 'our situation has been going on a long time. I think I understand the aspects of our marriage and lives together that aren't satisfactory to you. I'm here because I'd like to hear what specifics you want to change, and to work together to make that happen.'

Yes, I think so. I think it is 100% valid (and honestly should be standard) to start with each of your goals, and yours is action and solution oriented. Like you, we had a pretty terrible experience with our first MC. We basically just relitigated every fight in front of her for an hour and she would barely get a word in edgewise. I always left fuming, and then H thought she was on 'my side' (plus the whole secret A thing) so we stopped.

For me, I'm a pretty data-driven person and have been interested by the Gottmans' work, so I sought out an MC who was Gottman certified, plus happened to be the only person in town with formal discernment training which is our first (and perhaps only) order of business. I like that they have a process and so far at least this guy isn't just letting us complain at each other. Maybe that, or another specific training background could help you decide who you want? You could also be open about what didn't work for you last time, so that the MC knows to put a stop to the endless complaining if it happens.

I think you're right, May. The first time we went to MC was a total wash out - and that basically is on me, as I forced him to go so of course what did I expect? I was hoping that the MC would tell him his behaviour was unacceptable, and that he'd stop doing it. This is immature and not really how MC works. I think I needed to find the courage to say to him myself 'this behaviour is unacceptable' and to stop accepting it - and I am in that place now. He is also - not always, but more often - capable of some self-reflection though if I am honest I am still not confident he's capable of looking at his own motivations in a way that counselling would demand.

We had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about his EA: I think I posted about it on here. I told him what hurt me the most was how much he chased her when I felt so emotionally neglected during our marriage (and physically too, actually). I said I struggled not to take that personally and it still hurt. His response was to - in the name of full transparency - outline the various ways and means by which she chased him. There was a lot of detail that I did not know previously and to be honest, could have lived without knowing. It didn't feel that productive and it hurt to hear it and I didn't listen to all of it: I cut him off and asked him, 'why do you want to tell me this? why is me knowing this important to you?' - I suspect it was his ego talking, though he says he wanted to stop me feeling hurt that it was all one way. I suspect you understand where I'm coming from here, and he just really really really didn't. I don't know if that's a Mars or Venus thing or he's just spectacularly emotionally illiterate or what: but one of the reasons I dread MC is that while there has been some small signs of self-reflection, I don't think he has much of a capacity for it...

Of course you are welcome!

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

it has been winter for at least a thousand years.

You win best and truest line on the forum today.

I think I like your approach and thoughts on what to say for MC. Just making it clear you are there to identify solutions. That sounds good, and I don't think it invalidates your H's experience of wanting to go. That's all I would warn about - be careful you don't make him think you don't believe in it, or that you think it's dumb or a waste of time. That would be damaging, he needs to feel you hear him when he mentions this.

Last night I was talking with my BFF and she and her partner go to couples therapy somewhat regularly. They'll go every week a few times, then every other week, then maybe every third week. Then it tapers further for a while. Then there might be some maintenance sessions. Then maybe another time of needing to go back to full time.

For her it really helps in bringing them closer. But this is a long term priority for them. They're not reeling from an A. But I just wanted to say that for some with the right counselor MC really works. But both partners have to be invested.

I hear your hesitancy, and I think it's fine to start that way. But if this continues longer term you're going to have to also let your guard down and it won't be just talking about your H. I'm curious how this goes for you.

Hi Alison,

You shared something on my thread that I've been thinking about and I wanted to bring it up here, if that is ok.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

What I struggle with these days is in the way he acted towards me in the first few months after he moved out. He was messed up, irrational, abusive and just HORRIBLE. He seemed to seek me out solely to be mean to me. This is different from your story, I know. But what hurts today is the fact I know he's that type of man - that is a part of who he is - and that I'm the type of person who would tolerate it. I don't want to be that type of person and I don't want to be WITH that type of person. People are more complex than 'types' and I am working on letting go of resentments while having good boundaries and generally growing up a little and getting some kind of emotionally mature perspective on the situation. But I am hurt, and I am angry about it, and I am resentful, and I'm also humiliated that I took him back.

Here's my question for you, Alison. Put yourself back in your own shoes when he came back, and your decision process that brought you to him moving back in and you guys deciding to work on your R. IIRC, there wasn't a whole lot in your thread around that time and I'm curious about why you made that choice. I can imagine it was a whole plethora of things, from the kids to finances to still loving him or whatever... but what I want to say is... I bet your reasons were all valid. And nothing to be ashamed about.

I don't care so much what it might or might not take for you to forgive him for the way he treated you. What I want to know is: what would it take to forgive YOURSELF? Both for putting up with his behavior in the past, and for taking him back. The word you chose, "humiliated," has just really stuck with me. I know that feeling and the pit eating away in your stomach when you think about it. What would it take to let that feeling go? To say to past Alison-- you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. You were scared to lose your H, the father of your children, (whatever other reasons...) but you did what you thought was best and that is all you can ask for. And what a gift that you've come so far, you aren't that person any more, you won't accept that kind of behavior ever again in any R... and you may have never been able to step into that space if not for the hard lessons you learned and are still learning through this whole process.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I don't know if that's a Mars or Venus thing or he's just spectacularly emotionally illiterate or what: but one of the reasons I dread MC is that while there has been some small signs of self-reflection, I don't think he has much of a capacity for it...

That is absolutely one way to look at it... but if you are going to stay in an R with him, then it would be really helpful if he could exercise that little self-reflection muscle and start to understand how his words and actions have impacts on those around him who love him. And a good MC (and IC) is a solid way for this to happen. And... you'll never know if he *is* capable of self-reflection, or not being an a$$, or letting go of his own insecurities when parenting your eldest if you don't TRY. (See? Fence-testing cow.)

Originally Posted by Yail

I hear your hesitancy, and I think it's fine to start that way. But if this continues longer term you're going to have to also let your guard down and it won't be just talking about your H. I'm curious how this goes for you.

I am with Yail on this, though I also think there is no need to rush into anything if you simply aren't ready and you have concerns that the downside part (him whining) will make it too difficult for you to take anything good out of the sessions, yet. Maybe get him to keep going to his IC as much as possible to get all that out of the way.

Originally Posted by Yail

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. I am guarded: incredibly guarded. We're not in an IHS sort of situation: we're involved with each other, sleep in the same bed, there's some affection and some good harmonious teamwork in some practical aspects of our lives. But there's not much in the way of emotional connection. And I know that a good portion of that is because I won't let him anywhere near my heart. I have excellent reasons for that, but I guess I can either carry on as I am, and feel sad about being in a cold, pretty dead but practically functioning marriage, or I can make changes on my side of things. I don't really understand why my H wants to go to MC: I have asked him and he said 'to work on our problems' but other than a litany of complaint, which I can't really bear to listen to any more (I have a boundary around this for my own sanity) I don't have any idea about what positive changes he wants and what he wants our future marriage to look like.

Originally Posted by May22

Here's my question for you, Alison. Put yourself back in your own shoes when he came back, and your decision process that brought you to him moving back in and you guys deciding to work on your R.

I remember that time: we'd had some really good time together over the late summer. He'd started to open up, be more affectionate and respectful, and I saw leaps and bounds improvement in his relationship with Eldest. He was starting to take some responsibility, and while I didn't see much in the way of contrition or remorse, I did see a marked change in how he treated me day to day. I think I convinced myself - perhaps wrongly - that he was acting out his 180s rather than verbally telling me that he was sorry. We had one conversation where he said very clearly that he wanted to come back, and what he wanted things to be like - and that evening I said I liked what he said, and it gave me hope, but I didn't feel ready. And he was upset: pretty cold and withdrawn and sulky in the days afterwards (or perhaps he was just hurt) and that scared me - I thought laying out a boundary like that and telling him the truth had driven away, so I relented immediately and said he could come back - and he moved back out of his flat and into the house with all his stuff that week. We didn't even discuss it in any depth with the children. I think I knew better - even at the time I had a sense that I felt pressured and that there were things I wanted to address and hear from him before R that hadn't happened, but I was still so scared of his anger, and of losing him entirely, and that coloured my actions more than good sense and wisdom did.

Originally Posted by May22

What I want to know is: what would it take to forgive YOURSELF? Both for putting up with his behavior in the past, and for taking him back. The word you chose, "humiliated," has just really stuck with me. I know that feeling and the pit eating away in your stomach when you think about it. What would it take to let that feeling go? To say to past Alison-- you did the best you could with the tools you had at the time. You were scared to lose your H, the father of your children, (whatever other reasons...) but you did what you thought was best and that is all you can ask for. And what a gift that you've come so far, you aren't that person any more, you won't accept that kind of behavior ever again in any R... and you may have never been able to step into that space if not for the hard lessons you learned and are still learning through this whole process.

This is a really great question. It's made me cry a bit, reading it and thinking about it. But in a good way. You know, there are friends I have at work who knew that H moved out who don't know he has moved back yet - and he's been back nearly four months. I think I have a hard time forgiving myself both for what I tolerated and for letting him come back against my better judgement because I am so disappointed with our current marriage - it isn't what I expected or hoped for. I think I have changed a little, for the better, in some important ways - and there is and always will be more work to do. I can see the changes he's made - they are significant and it does mean our daily life is generally more peaceful. But there is a lot of distance between us because of my boundaries. I think they're healthy boundaries. I won't listen to him whine and blame and complain and whinge at me any more. I generally don't ask him for anything because - it's kind of weird it's so persistent - if I ask him for something, he seems to hear me criticising him and goes into full on defence mode. It's so boring and predictable and exhausting I just go my own way.

I'll give an example. Last night I asked if we could compare diaries to check some tricky logistical thing out with childcare that is cropping up this week. I literally just said, 'can we find five minutes to get our diaries out tonight so we can make sure someone is around for Youngest on Friday?' and he said 'it's not my fault - I haven't been the one stopping us talking about this,' in a really sulky teenage tone. I just left the room and went ahead and made my own arrangements, feeling pretty peeved and unsupported and a lot of contempt. It's like that almost constantly.

I guess if I could ask for something at MC I would say something like, 'I would like you to learn to ask me clearly for what you want, rather than just telling me all the time when something is not working for you. It would help me to understand what you need and what your ideal marriage would look like so we can work towards that. I would also like you to respond to any request from me with a clear yes or no - and no is fine - rather than the defensive responses that happen now. They're a barrier to communication and I would like to communicate better with you.'

What stops me is that I have said that, lots and lots of times, and because it is a request, it triggers defensiveness in him and I end up in some long discussion about his communication methods being my fault. And I have a boundary around listening to that.

Which I guess brings me back to self forgiveness. I do regret having him back in the house and moving to piecing before I was ready, and that's on me and not him. I do also need to forgive him - perhaps - for being truly incapable of giving me the type of marriage that I want. And I need to make decisions on that basis. Perhaps that's acceptance - I don't know.

There are some good things. I was out GAL last night. One of the things he's asked for is more evenings alone, so I've been out more or less every night this week (after I cook and do what's needed with the children, of course). I was imagining I'd be back around 10pm - it was just dinner with a friend - but I ended up not being back until 12.30 or so. No biggy. I don't drink, I was in my car and not wandering the streets at night, he knew where I was etc. He did call me at about 12 to ask if I was okay - he sounded genuinely worried - and that made me feel cared about as generally I feel pretty invisible to him and the thing he expresses he wants most is more time without me. That was very new and not something I have experienced from him in several years.

I am wondering how I could open up to him a bit more. And I am not sure anything I have to say to him about what is going on in my mind and heart would be positive for our relationship. If I was going to be really honest, I'd say, 'you totally broke my heart and I cried every day for months because you were so cruel. It felt like my life was disappearing and you'd been kidnapped by a stranger. I don't think I will ever every trust a person fully again - I don't know how I could ever feel truly safe with you again - after what has happened between us. I am so angry about how you project your own insecurities about being a low-achiever onto our children, in particular Eldest, and how your parenting is so harsh because you're acting out your issues rather than looking at yourself. I am weary and alone in our marriage because of your communication style, and I am so disappointed that what I hoped would happen when you came back has not happened. You hurt me more than I have ever been hurt in my life and I don't think you are ready to even contemplate that. The only way I can exist in the same house as you is to have emotional boundaries that mean you don't get anywhere near my heart, and the only thing I hear from you that is about what you want is more time alone, more separateness and more independence. That makes me wonder why you wanted to come back in the first place, and what is it about me that you desire. It is confusing.'

But if I spewed all that out at him, I can 100% guarantee it would have disastrous results. And I know my feelings, my hurt, my anger and resentment and my guardedness are my responsibility and my issue to deal with. It isn't fair to dump all that on his lap and expect him to repair it. It also isn't possible. So what I do to take care of myself is also incompatible with the marriage I'd like to have.

Oh, Alison. This all feels really hard, and I'm just reading about it, not living it. I don't know that I can say anything that will really help. But I'll offer a few things that you can take or leave:

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I'll give an example. Last night I asked if we could compare diaries to check some tricky logistical thing out with childcare that is cropping up this week. I literally just said, 'can we find five minutes to get our diaries out tonight so we can make sure someone is around for Youngest on Friday?' and he said 'it's not my fault - I haven't been the one stopping us talking about this,' in a really sulky teenage tone. I just left the room and went ahead and made my own arrangements, feeling pretty peeved and unsupported and a lot of contempt. It's like that almost constantly.

Oh god. I feel you on this. That must be so frustrating. No advice here, just wanted to say that.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Which I guess brings me back to self forgiveness. I do regret having him back in the house and moving to piecing before I was ready, and that's on me and not him.

Forgiving yourself for decisions you've made in the past is not going to happen overnight. But I do encourage you to give yourself a break on this. If you were your best friend, what would you say to yourself? I bet it wouldn't be "well, you made your own bed." I bet it would be more along the lines of "you made that choice of of hope and love and fear. None of those are bad things... I guess fear is not ideal but sometimes you just can't help that. It's OK. Let that feeling of regret go." Or whatever you might say to your friend-- say it to yourself, enough so that you will eventually believe it.

I also wonder as I read through this post if some of the feelings you are experiencing now aren't all that different from feelings that the WS experiences. It feels hopeless. He's incapable of giving you the M that you want. The only way you see forward is a cold, dead, but functioning M with him. [All things, incidentally, I know my H has felt in relation to our M.] And maybe you are seeing this all clearly and your choices are between figuring out how to stick it out and giving up the idea of what you had hoped your M could be, and leaving. Or. Maybe to consider... these feelings you have are totally natural, given everything that has happened, and you need to experience them. But. Maybe they'll pass too. Maybe one or two or three months from now, when spring starts in earnest, there will be a tiny tendril of hope that pokes up through the cold, hard ground. And then you might, just might, be ready to consider a different possible future with your H.

I will say this... maybe you aren't ready for MC right now. That is totally fair. If you aren't in a place where you can listen to your H complain without withdrawing further, then probably it isn't in the best interests of your R to put yourself in that situation. How do you explain that to H? Not sure... but I kind of feel like if you push yourself into that situation when you aren't ready, it might simply make things worse.

The other thing I think, though, is that the low-level resentment and anger from his dumb-a$$ comments like your example above, is also not a good thing. Figuring out a way to disconnect yourself from getting annoyed when he says garbage like that, or makes poor parenting choices, or whatever, is probably critical for you to heal. Do you have any thoughts on how you might pursue that as a goal?

And finally... you deserve and probably really, really need a break from him. Not just evenings out but like a week away. Can you do that? A yoga retreat, a solo trip to a new city, a hiking trip, or even just taking the kids to your parents' house and leaving him at home. I don't know. It feels to me like you just need a break, the feelings of wishing you had waited longer to let him move back in-- maybe space is what you're craving right now, and maybe there are other ways of getting that without him moving back out.

These are very good suggestions, May. I've just had a meal out with a gaggle of girl friends. Really enjoyed myself. These are women I've met and grown close to over the past four years (before the blow up in my marriage) and while not all of them know the ins and outs of the whole sorry story, they know me. And they want me to know them. We had a couple of hours in a pizza bar chatting and talking and laughing and commiserating: there was a little small talk, but mainly no superficial stuff, no judgement, no false-sympathy, a hard truth now and again and lots of realness. I don't think this is a women thing: I don't really socialise with men in the same way, but I do have some male friends who I have that type of honest real connection with. I take the best parts of myself into those relationships - though those friends are also aware of all my flaws too, and aren't engaged in a project of trying to fix them or improve me. I guess I am talking about feeling valued and accepted. I came home and H is happy enough and kids are happy and I will spend some special time with Eldest tonight as I've been out a lot recently and I miss my little chats with him about his school work and his friendship groups. I feel him getting a little more distant from me - as is appropriate for a boy his age - but I want to take advantage of the connection we have before he grows out of it entirely! It's all very good and I have a lot to be grateful for. And I'd like to know how to bring that better, happier, more honest and interesting and okay-with-being-real-and-vulnerable self to my marriage, but I don't know how. I suspect you are right when you say starting with space and self forgiveness is the key. Thank you!

Hi Alison,

Your post above really made me happy-- you deserve to have those feelings of being valued and accepted and loved among friends and family. I hope you and your eldest enjoyed some nice time together too.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

And I'd like to know how to bring that better, happier, more honest and interesting and okay-with-being-real-and-vulnerable self to my marriage, but I don't know how.

The only thing I would say to this is-- it is OK that you can't see the way on this right now. Who could??? You've gone through so much and are still going through and processing all of it. It's OK. Give yourself a break and time and be patient with yourself. You deserve that.

Thanks for the posts, everyone.

This is my Monday update.

A more or less peaceful week. We had a hard time at the weekend. Something and nothing. I over-reacted over a minor thing, he over-reacted to that, and we were caught up in an argument before either of us knew it. I think we both de-escalated pretty well and tried to make peace and be affectionate afterwards. I think it probably scares both of us senseless when there's conflict. We're so scared of it, and each other, and so untrusting.

I also think we're both exhausted with how difficult piecing can be.

H is trying - I can see that he is - and it must be frustrating for him to live with someone so cold and untrusting. I don't monitor his whereabouts or look at his phone - I don't want a marriage like that and he EA was a long time ago now - but if he's late back from work it is a sneaky thought I have, and I find that difficult to deal with, and he's wary of having to supply constant reassurance when today, and for a long time, he's been nothing but faithful to me. I don't think I am unreasonable to have trouble trusting, and I don't think he's unreasonable to be weary of not being trusted. It's just how it is right now.

I can see - and he's said as much - that all the feelings I have about getting back together not being quite as I imagined and not what I signed up for - he's having too. We talked a bit about MC. I asked him what he felt would be different this time, and he said he wasn't interested in trying to convince me to go against my own judgment - that I'd have to make my own decision. That's fair enough, I suppose. I think I was seeking reassurance but it isn't really in his power to give it.

I've dialled back on my plans for GAL this week. I think I was avoiding the house, and exhausting myself in the process. There needs to be a balance. I know I am prone to over-work as a way of avoiding painful things, and I don't want to replace GAL with work (working more moderately and healthily was one of my 180s). I also think that H and I need to have some fun together. We've been concentrating on the conflicts we have - around parenting - and that is difficult and necessary work. But we haven't been doing much to enjoy each other.

I have consciously made the effort to be a little more open with him this week. I am receiving some instruction and teaching in my spiritual practice and I have never, never spoken to him about it. We don't share a faith. That's totally fine with me - he gives me freedom in this and privacy too, and I have no wish to convert him to my way of thinking at all. But it is very important to me and I don't talk to him about it at all - not a bit - because I have such a fear of being judged. I told him a little bit about it this week and put some of my instruction dates on the family calendar. He noticed and asked me about them. it was tentative, but it was something.

Alison, what I really like about you sharing a bit about your spiritual practice is that it is somewhat neutral ground for the two of you.

What I mean by that is that it isn't marred by negative memories for the two of you. It isn't triggering. But at the same time it is something deeply personal and importantant to you, so it is a form of you opening up to him, and a form of him listening to you.

You aren't at the stage of sharing emotions, but you can share this right now and he can see you in a new light of who you are as a whole person. This seems very positive, and appropriately cautious.

Originally Posted by Yail

I didn't think of it that way Yail, but you're right. It is something that is mine and not ours and has no bad memories attached. A lot of our lives together, memories, parenting, work - they're all to do with feeling wounded in some ways. This is something quite separate. He's a very New Atheist type (which is fine) and is sometimes very scathing and critical about people with faith. That's a reason why I've never told him about my own practice. But I guess I did like his skeptical and critical spirit once and he must have once valued my more curious and imaginative one.

We did have a chat at the weekend and came to the conclusion that each was afraid of being judged by the other. I do feel - or fear - that all the things about me that make me different from him and uniquely myself (my interest in sex, my sensitive emotions, my sociability, my empathy, my willingness to try on crazy ideas now and again) aren't things he delights in, but things he's irritated and disapproving of. What I didn't know what that he felt the same way. I think it was a bit of a leap for him to even tell me that - to be able to put it into words in a way that I'd understand, and also to dare to tell me. We are extremely different but that isn't news, and the differences did work once - when we had respect for each other's unique ways of doing things. That lack of acceptance of difference has been playing our most markedly in our parenting (I'm more relationship focused, more nurturing - he's more about structure and routine and discipline - though we've both moved a little more to the middle over the last year) but runs through lots of aspects of our lives.

It's kind of sad really. Neither of us feeling delighted in or cherished or even just accepted for who we are.

Alison: I see plenty of hope for you, maybe stop seeing the negatives so often? I'm so proud of you for showing that vulnerability, you cannot piece without it. And each of you telling the other that you're afraid of judgement, that is also vulnerability from both of you, which is huge.

How about you focus on celebrating the differences? Tell him each day one thing you value him for, and ask him to do the same. You're so focused on protection, it makes it hard to build warmth. I know it takes two, but someone has to start and clearly you're the more emotionally intelligent one!

Any progress on MC? I think EFT would be a great approach for you both, it's evidence based and more about building attachment than raking over the past. I do think it would be easier to do all this with help instead of muddling on through alone.

Originally Posted by dillydaf

Dilly - you made me laugh. I know for sure I'm a pessimist - H has told me this, other people have told me this. It's a self protective mechanism that really really went up a gear after BD and it is hurting my marriage these days.

No progress on MC. I'm just not ready yet. I am still with my IC and I want to concentrate on that. But I have been clear with H about that without blaming him. I know it sounds like a bad idea - and it might be - but I think I have a right to go at my pace and protect myself and get my head in the right place before starting something like this. I think I need to be in the place where I can bring myself to believe my H and I am not there yet, though I am working on it.

This is my weekly update.

So - another good week - mainly quiet. I've been working at home a lot, which I enjoy, but have been out two nights for GAL which seems like a good enough balance for me right now. There's been real friendship there this week. I have been verbally expressing gratitude more, which I can see makes a difference to him. He seems to really really want to please me with acts of service (which aren't my love language) and when I act pleased or grateful (words of affirmation, I guess?), that encourages him to be affectionate (physical touch) and want to spend time with me (quality time). That's a good thing to know.

It's also been a good long time - several weeks - since he's done his weird angry sarcasm or impressions antics. He's STILL incredibly defensive and it's wearing - I asked him if he'd put fuel in the car a few days ago, and rather than answering yes or no (so I knew if I needed to go out and do it - it's easier in the evening than in rush hour traffic in the morning) he had a rant about how many times I'd brought the car back to the house needing fuel. I tried to hug him and said something like 'hey, I was just asking you,' and he (gently - this wasn't physical abuse) pushed me away and said 'you have a dig at me, and watch how hard I come back at you!' - in those moments he's like a different person. Completely possessed by this weird angry spirit that I am coming to understand really has nothing to do with me or what I've said. Clearly there's something in him that can't bear even the thought of criticism. While I still see that, and while he's unable to own it and work with it, I don't see the point of MC, where I probably would want to bring up aspects of his behaviour that aren't okay with me then pay for the privilege of sitting and listening to his incoherent ranting.

But this is one small thing and the good thing is that I don't feel I am walking on eggshells or avoiding saying what I want to say in order to contain that weird angry hostile alien that takes over his body sometimes. I don't feel afraid of that person any more. I just leave the room.

On the whole, things have been much better.

Alison: what a positive update

Maybe there's hope for you breaking your pessimistic habits after all! I found it interesting that you said pessimism is protective, hmmm maybe that helps me understand my H better as he's always been extraordinarily pessimistic about many things and got worse as he's got older. Being optimistic has its own downsides, but I'm not working to change that too much about myself any time soon, I like being optimistic!

I loved the way you took the effort to express gratitude for his acts of service and use words of affirmation, those are both things I have been working to find opportunities to express towards H as it seems to make a big difference to him. Difficult when you're busy being dark, but I've done it a few times lately. They do say you should be your spouse's biggest cheerleader! It doesn't come naturally to me, but I've practiced a lot on friends lately, and I can see H relaxes when I do it with him. And then your H reciprocates with your LLs, fantastic! Keep up that great work

The criticism thing: that sounds very much like my H too, even a hint of criticism (which ironically he's so good at dishing out) makes him super defensive. Maybe part of piecing is learning how to rephrase what you need in such a way that it couldn't possibly be interpreted as critical? I'm trying to work out how that would work out in the fuel situation, maybe over the top niceness?! 'I would be so very appreciative if you could spare 5 minutes to fill up the car for me, it would make such a big difference to my day tomorrow and while you're gone I can run a bath/make a cup of tea for you to say thank you' If he likes being appreciated for his acts of service, then rewarding small things like that might make him likely to do it automatically next time without being asked? Just a suggestion! My H used to fill up the car and I was NEVER appreciative, I do regret that nowadays and if he does something small like that for me now then I do make a big fuss of thanking him and it does make a difference!

Hello Dilly!

Yes - my pessimism really is self protective. If I expect the worse, then perhaps I will never feel the bottom-dropping-out-of-my-world utter shock, hurt and disbelief that I felt when I discovered H in an EA. I know I still am feeling the effects of that. I don't know how the LBS on here who are dealing with ongoing PA manage it. I generally assume the worst of him now until proved otherwise and it does cause damage. I think I still have hurt to process: not really about H - I understand why he did what he did and it's all very human and predictable. I guess I just have a hard time coming to terms with how vulnerable committing to someone makes you. That's still incredibly difficult for me to deal with.

And yes - it is always better to butter H up with lavish praise when asking him to do something. The thing is, I rarely ask him to do anything as he reacts horribly when I do. In this case, I was only asking him for information - if he hadn't have put fuel in the car I would have gone out and done it myself without complaint. I guess in this case I could just go out and check rather than speaking to him, which seems sad - but I do generally avoid asking him for anything if I can possibly help it and it is as a result of his unpleasant behaviour. He's very childish in lots of ways.

I have an easy week work wise this week so I have been getting out and about a lot. H and I have penciled in a day this week to spend together as we're both off work on the same day and the kids are at school (hardly ever happens). I am looking forward to it. Apart from the small things that I mention in the updates I give here now and again, things are so much better than they were a year ago. I keep bearing in mind May's words about being accepting of where I am and forgiving of my own inability to trust and let go just for the time being. I hope that changes as I think I will be happier in myself if it does, regardless of what H does or doesn't do.

hi Alison,

It does sound like a really good week. I'm so glad for you.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

No progress on MC. I'm just not ready yet. I am still with my IC and I want to concentrate on that. But I have been clear with H about that without blaming him. I know it sounds like a bad idea - and it might be - but I think I have a right to go at my pace and protect myself and get my head in the right place before starting something like this. I think I need to be in the place where I can bring myself to believe my H and I am not there yet, though I am working on it.

This is really fantastic, Alison. You know what you need and you aren't there yet and I completely agree that you shouldn't start till you are ready to start. The fact that you're working on it getting there and have been able to communicate that to your H is really great. To me, really knowing yourself and what you need in this (or any) situation is an enormous plus and truly isn't easy to do.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

But this is one small thing and the good thing is that I don't feel I am walking on eggshells or avoiding saying what I want to say in order to contain that weird angry hostile alien that takes over his body sometimes. I don't feel afraid of that person any more. I just leave the room.

I also think this is really wonderful. You've taken the power back from him to hurt or upset you (and, my guess is by doing this, are also helping to extinguish the behavior because he isn't getting a response from you anymore).

The story about the fuel and his over-the-top reaction makes me think he is really in such a difficult place. Can you imagine being so, so insecure and frightened of anything that would be construed as criticism that you can't even answer a simple question about whether or not you fueled up the car? Yikes. Honestly, I know that it is awful to be on the receiving end of that, but hopefully the time you're giving both of you to get in a better place for MC before you start will also help him to relax and let go and be able to hear what you're really saying, not with all the layers of insecurity and fear and reactionary aggression.

You are on your own path, at your own pace, and it sounds like able to see the progress. That is wonderful.

Gosh Alison, I misinterpreted the whole fuel thing, yes he is far too defensive isn't he? And that was not an appropriate response from him. I wonder when things like that happen how good you both are at repairing? I read somewhere that it's not that important what the conflict is or how it goes, it's how you both repair afterwards which is most important, signalling that yes, something awkward or painful occurred between you but that you are still there for the other person regardless.
You're doing fantastically, I agree with everything may said. Keep up the good work and you'll both be ready for MC before you know it

Hello everyone. A weekly update.

We had a very very bad day a few days ago. I don't know precisely what brought it on, but H and I have been using our diaries at the weekend to decide which nights we will have together and which he will have to himself (and I GAL). The aim here was to meet his needs for solitude in the home, mine for GAL, and ours for some time together. It seemed to be working okay. On one of the evenings that was 'ours' he said he wanted to get in bed with me and watch a film. I had some work to finish off so I went upstairs and got on with that and he said he'd be up at 9pm. At 9.50 I went downstairs and he was playing on his computer game, and as I thought he might have expected me to come and get him when I'd finished his work, I said, 'are you coming up?' and he turned off his computer and he did.

He got into bed and I could see from how he was moving that he was quite drunk. I asked him what film he had in mind and he ignored the question and started talking to me about feeling constrained, suffocated, unhappy in our house and our marriage. I validated and asked him if he just wanted to do his own thing instead. He ignored the question and basically spent an hour unloading on me. It reminded me so so so much of how it was early in our separation - when I did see him during that time he used it as an opportunity to just verbally savage me - he can be so mean and cruel - and it was like that again. It was hard to really make much sense out of what he was saying, but his general points seemed to be that he felt disrespected, unimportant, that he felt I didn't consider him when making decisions, that he felt his relationship with Eldest was irreparably damaged, that he felt all the decisions I made around the kids (he was giving examples of fairly basic day to day stuff, like their chores and their homework schedules and after school activities) weren't for their benefit, but to make sure my friends thought I was a good parent because all I cared about was what other people thought of me (?) and various spewing amongst those lines. I listened for about an hour, saying very little. He'd now and again ask a question of an argumentative and leading type, 'don't you think that...' but not stop to draw breath or let me answer, then carry on arguing on his own as if the answer he imagined I would give had displeased him. After about an hour of this I suggested that it was late, and perhaps it was better picked up some other time once we'd had some sleep. He then started doing nasty impressions of me crying and wailing and begging for him to stop being mean to me (I was doing none of those things - I was calm and quiet and saying very very little) and so I left the room.

I stayed downstairs crying for a long time. I was extremely upset and confused. He's been saying, more and more, how much better things feel, and how much more space and respect he feels he has in our relationship, and how the parenting and his relationships with the kids feels so much better than it ever has, and how he's looking forward to our future and enjoys our friendship. So I was totally confused by what he was saying. I also had no idea what had triggered it: when I got back from work earlier that evening I jumped in the shower and he came with me - which is something we used to do together a lot and hardly ever do now. It was nice. What happened between then and him coming upstairs to verbally abuse me I have no idea. I did ask him what had triggered these feelings, but he was just so angry and ranty there was no sense to be had out of what he was saying.

I had a very sleepless night. Things were calm enough in the morning and I went off for work. I know he felt sorry about his behaviour as he offered to drive and collect me from work (he's an acts of service man). I felt like I'd been emotionally beaten up and it took me right back to how it was around BD time and in our separation.

I gathered myself and the day after asked to speak to him. I don't know if this is good or bad DBing but I said

1 - I was happy to listen to his feelings, even if they weren't all hearts and flowers, and I acknowledge that our past had hurt him and the effect of that was not going to disappear overnight.
2 - there was a difference between expressing difficult feelings and verbal abuse, and he had crossed the line and it was entirely unacceptable - and whatever justification he felt he had for it was irrelevant to me - in my eyes there was no justification at all and I didn't want to hear his excuses
3 - if he ever was deliberately cruel and nasty to me like that again I was done. That I was never ever going to be subject to him not being able to control himself again - and that if he wasn't able to drink without getting nasty, then he had to decide what was more important to him, drinking or having a home and a place in the family
4 - if he had an issue with anything in our marriage - parenting, money, sex, free time - anything at all - then I wanted to hear about it, and I wanted to build a life that suited us both. But he was responsible for asking for what he wanted, and asking for it without abuse. And if he couldn't learn to do that he needed to re-enage with his therapist, or get out as for me, being safe from his verbal abuse was more important than anything else.

He did try to come back at me with some excuses for his behaviour - these were largely about bringing up times from our past (well over two years ago) when I'd been upset and unreasonable towards him. I cut him off and said I wasn't interested in that any more. That if he felt the past was good ammunition for justifying abuse in the present, I'd never have let him back in the house. I used the word 'abuse' which I know enrages him, but I was past caring and I wanted him to know I would call it what it was.

He did apologise, but I could tell he was angry and resentful about it.

I've been generally taking my space since then. I believe he was a) drunk and blue because he was drunk and b) he'd got drunk because he didn't want to hang out with me but didn't know how how to break our arrangement without risking me being disappointed and c) he was worried I would expect sex and because of the drinking he'd be unable and I'd be disappointed. This man is so sensitive to criticism that even if he imagines a mildly disappointed expression on my face, he comes out fighting, and I believe that was what was happening.

A lot of his discomfort is about him feeling like he has no control and not respected enough in the house and not given enough space (or that's what he used to say around DB time and that's what his drunken ranting the other night was about). I believe I have done 180s in a number of areas that address these things, but if there's something specific that isn't working for him, he needs to articulate it clearly and he knows that is my position and that I am willing to listen if he has specific requests. I believe he feels that because I refuse to listen to whining, blame and verbal abuse, I am cutting him off - when I tell him I will listen to him, he points out the times I leave the room when he speaks, and he doesn't seem to understand that when he's rude, blaming, sarcastic or mean I leave the room, but when he says, 'this isn't working for me. When you do X I feel Y and please instead can we have Z' that I am all ears and a co-operative and collaborative partner.

I am actually really furious with him and disappointed by him. His drunken teenage ranting and fight-picking is also really unattractive to me. But more than that, I am annoyed with myself for lying there and allowing it. I thought I was past that. I did have a boundary not to be around him when he drinks - he isn't a big drinker most of the time, but when he is stressed he drinks more, and drinking seems to make him more self-pitying and blaming then he already is, and I don't care to be about that. I wish I had made an excuse when I saw the state he was in and went off and read a book in the bath or something until he'd fallen asleep.

Oh - and just to add: one of the things he's really really upset about. He wants Youngest to go to a particular school. He's never actually visited or looked into this school, he's just going on its reputation. I have visited and spoken to the parents of children at that school and also talked to Youngest's teachers about suitability. I don't really have a strong opinion: I can see the good points and the bad points, we're not at a stage where a decision is needed, and am happy to keep an open mind. H knows this. H really really wants Youngest to go to this school, and believes we should hire a tutor to prepare her for the entrance exam and not give Youngest the choice. I said if he wanted to hire a tutor I would not stand in his way, would pay from it from family funds (so a joint expense - and I contribute double to our 'joint expenses' pot than he does because of the disparity in our incomes) and I'd certainly not discourage Youngest or undermine him, but as I was open minded about other possibilities I'd like us to keep those on the table. This all felt very reasonable to me. But apparently this is me throwing my weight about, over-ruling him in front of the kids (we've never had a discussion about this in front of the kids) controlling him, saying who he is allowed to be as a parent, and my motivation for this isn't what's in the best interests of Youngest, but all about making sure that Eldest comes first and that my friends approve of my behaviour. I genuinely have no idea what he is talking about, other than the fact that while I am willing to co-operate with him, I don't agree entirely with him and am not prepared to obey him mindlessly. I didn't say that at the time but I did tell him he was being absolutely ridiculous a couple of days after the night in question. I am not sure this is a man who can be happy with compromise: it seems there's obedience, or he feels controlled. He doesn't seem to be able to feel okay in himself if he knows I have a different view to him. This concerns me.

Allison, I am not caught up on your situation fully, but Just the brief glimpse I had of your weekly update, let me say this. The alcohol must not be a factor here. Meaning, you must draw a hard boundary here. You absolutely will not discuss the relationship when he's been drinking. You explain fully that you DO want to hear his thoughts and concerns but you want to hear from HIM and not the alcohol.

My opinion is that the entire conversation from the time that he came upstairs was absolutely pointless. I need to go back and read up, but this is a time to start new, healthy habits for communication, not fall back into the same dynamics.
Your focused on all of this banter back and forth about schools and chores, incomes and discipline yet the core of all of this discussion is *his* addictive behavior just from my quick glimpse.

Rest well tonight and don't worry about his self view, that isn't your job. You just focus on being the best YOU you can be. I'll read up on your story tonight.

Hi Alison,

This sounds awful. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. I think laying out your boundaries as clearly as you did was a good idea, and he simply cannot talk to you like that. I get especially upset with the impressions. I have a few thoughts to share if it is helpful at all:

-- recovery as we all know is not a straight line, and it isn't probably in the big picture surprising that he had this major lapse. The good thing is that you dealt with it well-- even though you are upset with yourself for listening to it, you remained calm and then finally left when he crossed that final line. I wonder if he was pushing and pushing to see where that line would be, even if subconsciously. And then you calmly approached him the next day, shared your thoughts, and he apologized (even if not with a full heart... I'm going to guess that it could have gone worse). So think of how far you've come in all of this.

-- I am thinking back to the "you didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him" mantra. He clearly has issues and is projecting them onto you. He has a lot to work on. I feel sad for him that he is trapped in this awful place inside. But still it is not acceptable for him to take it out on you. I guess the question is how can you give him the space he needs to work on this (assuming he is committed to changing) without it taking such a toll on you?

-- Maybe he is getting better and this was a setback but he'll continue to improve. I know you aren't ready for MC but I'm wondering if a visit to his IC (as I think had been planned but cancelled in the past?) could help, so that you can have a conversation facilitated by a professional where you lay some of this out? or an initial consult with an MC? I mean, he'll never be able to be in a true partnership with you or anyone else for that matter if he can't communicate what he wants in a respectful way, or doesn't really understand what it means to compromise (seems like he feels either he wins or you win, in something like the school choice), plus the issues with perceived criticism and the need for control/feeling disrespected. I just wonder a little if he can even hear you when you articulate some of this to him, or if he needs a professional third party to hear it and help him get there.

-- Your plan about your child's schooling sounds eminently reasonable, if it helps. He is being unreasonable.

As you know I have had issues with my H being disrepectful and mean also, and this is the one area where he's really improved, I think quite a bit from the help of his IC, as we had identified this as a major R issue (I think I was calling it anger management) during MC round #1 and was the primary reason for him starting to see the IC (although I think the A and his ambivalence around ending either it or our M was the bigger, unspoken factor). There are a couple of things I've done that are similar to you and just like anything else of course it all takes time. And if his behaviors are rooted in some deeper insecurities, then he has to deal with those along with the unacceptable behaviors. just a couple of ideas to take or leave:

-- I set hard boundaries around talking to me disrespectfully. I tell him to knock it off. I stopped letting it start a fight.
-- While ultimately I wanted him to not be a jerk to anyone, at first I decided to let the small stuff go, like yelling at another driver on the road. if it wasn't towards me or the kids, I ignored it. (And the funny thing here was that it actually really burnt itself out and he stopped this too... I wonder how much of it was really just to get a rise out of me.)
-- I really reinforced it when I saw him deal with something well-- not like fake over the top, but I would turn towards him and tell him how much I appreciated X.
(And of course as you know H is still disrespecting me in the biggest of ways, so all of this seems kind of mundane in comparison... but for whatever reason this issue, which had been my #1 biggest problem with him (that he acted like an a-hole, was disrespectful and mean) has for the most part gone.

I'm sorry, Alison... I hope this was just a setback and he can take from it that he really needs to work on these issues if he wants a real R with you. I'm sure it is all true that he has mostly been feeling better in the R as he's been expressing to you-- but he maybe just had a down day, like we all do, and drank and then expressed it all in a really dysfunctional way.

Thanks Jefe - and yes, you are absolutely right. He isn't an alcoholic, but when he does drink it seems to really amplify his negativity and nasty side. Most of the time when he drinks (which isn't every day) I am out GAL or in another room: I don't care to be around it. I should have made myself scarce as soon as I saw the state he was in. That's on me.

May - yes, I think this is a pretty severe setback and I am mainly okay with how I dealt with it. I didn't need to lie there and listen for an hour, and I won't do again - and I think the content of what he was saying was mainly self-pitying garbage and about his own insecurity rather than the facts of the situation. I asked him yesterday, very gently, if he'd been sitting downstairs worrying about the prospect of having to have sex with me (it isn't like we scheduled that, and I hadn't said anything that would have let him assume I expected it or would be angry if I didn't get it - this is all on him) and that's what had made him open the beer, and he said yes, he thought so. He didn't go into any more detail and I didn't push it. I don't like having to be his mind reader at the best of times. But with the history of our SSM and the ungracious ways I have dealt with rejection from him in the past, I can see why he's be anxious. I didn't validate him in that moment as I was still too furious but I wish I had now, as I do genuinely see why he'd be afraid.

I'm not sure I can do any of the things you suggest with his IC. He has stopped seeing her, but the rules of confidentiality and boundaries mean that she'd ever ever speak to me about him, or listen to me speak to her about him - it just wouldn't be appropriate. I think the ethics must work differently where you are as I've heard other US posters say similar things and been surprised by it. He sometimes blames me for him quitting therapy (apparently, months and months ago, I once mildly asked him to put his appointments on the family calendar so if he was expecting Eldest to look after Youngest while he was there, then we'd all know about that in advance rather than last minute chaos) and he uses that as a general excuse as to why I'm so unsupportive and he can't have his therapy. Or he said it is time for joint therapy (which he does want to go to and has been asking for for months) but we can't see his IC as he feels uncomfortable with me seeing her.

I am still taking my space. He's been working all weekend and I've been with the kids or GAL with friends. Things between us are fine - I hope he's mulling over the line I laid down in the sand.

Hi Alison,

Just a quick note in/re the SSM-- maybe your H should read the Emily Nagowski book-- or actually both of you. It doesn't sounds like the desire discrepancy between the two of you is the primary issue, but it is definitely one where there can be a lot of shame and fear and feeling that something is wrong with you, which is all so easy to leach into other feelings and then anger. I can imagine for your H being a male and the LD partner could be even more difficult. Anyway, perhaps that is one area where you both can learn about yourselves and each other. It lays out a really different framework for how desire/arousal works (not just for women, for everyone).

M

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

He got into bed and I could see from how he was moving that he was quite drunk. I asked him what film he had in mind and he ignored the question and started talking to me about feeling constrained, suffocated, unhappy in our house and our marriage. I validated and asked him if he just wanted to do his own thing instead. He ignored the question and basically spent an hour unloading on me. It reminded me so so so much of how it was early in our separation - when I did see him during that time he used it as an opportunity to just verbally savage me - he can be so mean and cruel - and it was like that again. It was hard to really make much sense out of what he was saying, but his general points seemed to be that he felt disrespected, unimportant, that he felt I didn't consider him when making decisions, that he felt his relationship with Eldest was irreparably damaged, that he felt all the decisions I made around the kids (he was giving examples of fairly basic day to day stuff, like their chores and their homework schedules and after school activities) weren't for their benefit, but to make sure my friends thought I was a good parent because all I cared about was what other people thought of me (?) and various spewing amongst those lines. I listened for about an hour, saying very little. He'd now and again ask a question of an argumentative and leading type, 'don't you think that...' but not stop to draw breath or let me answer, then carry on arguing on his own as if the answer he imagined I would give had displeased him. After about an hour of this I suggested that it was late, and perhaps it was better picked up some other time once we'd had some sleep. He then started doing nasty impressions of me crying and wailing and begging for him to stop being mean to me (I was doing none of those things - I was calm and quiet and saying very very little) and so I left the room.

Alison ~ My W used to do this, everything except the nasty impression part. I learned it always happened late at night, and typically if she had a drink or two. A casual conversation would morph into a tsunami of complaints. I would say I want to hear her feelings, whether or not they might be hard for me to hear. I validated. All of that, like you did. She would eventually say "I'm tired" and then storm off to bed, with no closure to the conversation.

I think there is a limit of "reasonableness" when it comes to validating. This is not how feelings are shared in healthy relationships. Perhaps your H needs to find a way to share difficult feelings. Maybe he bottles things up, assumes you can read his mind, assumes the worst in you, and then vents when he's had some alcohol to lower his filter. That's not secure or healthy. I think it's entirely fair for you to set boundaries about what you will and won't tolerate. You are also working hard to continue to show you are open to his feelings, within limits of respectful behavior.

Hi everyone

just my weekly update.

So - it's been a very good week. We've both been busy, I've had some GAL and my new instruction class for my faith. H has been asking some questions about this. I guess in the past he wouldn't have, or I'd have felt him being judgmental, but it hasn't been like that and we've had some good conversations.

Eldest has been a bit tricky: he's away this week for a school sports trip and he's always quite demanding in advance of things like this. It's clearly anxiety, and I tend to pick my battles and try to give some extra special bonding time. H is more likely to be zero tolerance. I think we have both really moved to the middle so although there were some difficult moments - as there always are with teenagers - it was okay. I'm a bit sad at the thought of Eldest going away. It won't be long before he leaves home - it's creeping up on me and I am so not ready for it - but I am also thinking that with Youngest in bed much earlier and the living room to ourselves in the evening it might be a good opportunity for H and I to spend a bit more time together.

I am feeling happier now the first signs of spring are finally here. We live in the very very north so there's still snow in th high places but I'm seeing daffodils on my walks now, and it is much lighter in the evenings and more of a pleasure to be outside. H works in medicine and with all this news about coronavirus at the moment he's been extra protective of me and the kids and I like that.

Unchien - I think you're totally right about a limit of 'reasonableness' when it comes to validating and with my H's struggle to express himself in respectful ways, have his needs and wants noted and made space for in the relationship, and to achieve that without the passive agression or verbal abuse. It's a steep learning curve for him. I can see - every day - the changes he is making and also how difficult he finds it. I am determined not to get involved in that process and to accept nothing less than adult conversations with him. If he can't manage that, well, that's his issue to address. I don't care to be around H when he's drunk and if I'd stuck to my own boundary and just went away and had a bath or something, the whole sorry mess would never have happened. Horrible though it was though, I don't think H has seen me that calm and assertive before and I hope he knew that I meant what I said. Anyone is allowed a bad day but he was so far over the line it wasn't funny.

That's a nice positive update Alison, and I'm glad you managed to move past that rocky time. Alcohol really doesn't bring out the best in some people does it? I hope eldest has a good week away, I think maybe you can empathise with his behaviour because you know what separation anxiety feels like. I never used to have it so found it hard to empathise with, I do now though.

Originally Posted by dillydaf

Yes, I see a lot of both H and myself in Eldest: he tends to lash our or get very emotional when he is feeling insecure, and he's at a stage in life where sometimes he wants to be cherished and treated like a baby, with no responsibility, and other times he's responsible and independent and lovely, and at other times he wants all the freedom of young adulthood with none of the responsibility. The poor thing has had a hard run this past year and I know has had the burden of worrying about me more than he should have, so I want this next stage of his life to be about him finding his feet and not worry too much about how his parents are doing. I am so not ready for him moving out, but I suppose all over-protective mothers say that and I do think we need to loosen our bonds a little bit for his benefit.

I am noticing that the more assertive I am with H - not aggressive or emotional but just clear and boundaried and consistent - the better things are. Perhaps that makes him feel safer too. I don't know. Drinking really really does not bring out the best in him and I think deep down he knows that too. He's been making noises about finding other things to do in the evenings to release his work stress - the dark and cold doesn't do him any good so I am hoping now spring is here he will be able to find some of his own GAL.

My eldest will be off to uni in October and I'm going to miss him but am also so excited for his next stage of life. Plus I'm looking forward to visiting him at uni if he lets me! He has really grown up since BD, I know it's been harder for him than for youngest, but I think this is a time of great change for them anyway as they approach the final years of school and get girlfriends and jobs and other responsibilities, and he has really stepped up to these responsibilities.

I hope your H does start to take better care of himself, for everyone's sake. As you know, this is my H's main downfall, maybe because he feels unworthy of anyone's care, including his own. Well done to you for being assertive. I don't see H enough to be consistently assertive, but it's something I work on with others all the time and I know how hard it is... I see a bright future for you Alison

An update.

Well - what a crazy time we are all living through right now.

I am working at home - my workplace is entirely closed down and I had one day's notice to clear what I needed from my office and move over to remote working. My employer has provided equipment and online training on new systems so it's better for me than a lot of people, but it's been stressful - especially as I now have two kids at home with me and am also trying to home ed them.

Eldest is very wobbly: missing his friends, worried about the disruption to his schooling, worried about sports trips planned that he will miss out on, annoyed that I can't be constantly available to him. I hope he will settle in a few days once he starts to make online contact with his peer group and get used to the online classroom stuff his school has set up.

Youngest I think is taking less of it in - we try not to have the news on too much when she's around - but is being more clingy and waking up early in the morning. I am trying to just keep her in a good routine and not over-react to the small stuff. With all of us in the house, it is going to be hard and we will have bad days and I may as well just accept this before we start.

H, as I think I said before, works in medicine. He's been called in for extra shifts and also put on call. He's already stressed and anxious and exhausted. But you know - he is doing well. I can see him trying to take care of me and the kids in his 'acts of service' way as well as trying to be more emotionally available. He's been more respectful of the fact that if it is down to me to work at home and home educate the kids, then he's going to have to let me devise a way to do that and sort out their routines etc, and he can't be critical of me all the time when he's hardly in the house. And I've been working to make sure he has the space he needs. Things are only going to get worse for him at work personally and the whole world, but so far, we are doing okay.

How is everyone else getting on?

Alison, in times of high stress I think those who choose "divide and conquer" often do well. I like that you and H have (perhaps non-verbally) taken on specific roles to handle and then are respecting one another to handle those roles. I can't imagine the stress your H is under, and I think it's great that he is for now trying to reign that energy in for good, and not lashing out.

You both have a lot on your plate, but perhaps that takes the microscope off of your sitch?

Stay well.

Hi Alison, it sounds like you're doing just fine. I am pretty relaxed about any 'education' my kids are getting. This is a time to survive, not to try to excel. My kids are old enough to not need nagging, and they are curious about the world and learn a lot independently outside any schoolwork, so I am trusting them to get on with things. Ds1 bought a keyboard and he and ds2 have been hanging out together playing it! Your H seems to be getting his priorities right even under a lot of pressure, I hope that continues. Good luck in establishing a decent routine, at least you have your dog to walk! I kind of wish I'd got one now, the main reason I didn't was because I was going to go travelling this year. Ha!

Well today was a hard day, and yesterday too. Or rather, most of it was fine but there were small parts that were very hard.

We're on lockdown now, which isn't too different for us given that with Eldest's health problems we've been seeing nobody and going out only for strict essentials for a little while now. The kids are unsettled - obviously - but it being fine weather has helped as they've been out in the garden a lot and applying themselves to their school work with more dilligence than I expected (early days, and the novelty of it all will wear off soon, I am sure).

Eldest and H have clashed a few times. I can see that Eldest badly badly needs less micro-management and in my view, H could pick his battles a bit more and back off from the conflict that Eldest sometimes angles for. He seems to treat them both the same in terms of routines and expectations, without realising there's a big age gap between them and Eldest appropriately needs less nagging and supervision. It's the same old thing - magnified, I guess, because so much else is stressful - H comes down on Eldest hard, unnecessarily so in my view, or will after a conflict like a dog with a bone (he isn't shouting - he's icy calm and persistent and dogged until he goads Eldest into a meltdown) and then when the meltdown happens, works at blaming me for it because if I was as hard as he is, Eldest wouldn't be disobedient.

I know part of this is the stress of the confinement. Part of it is growing pains: H doesn't like to be disrespected, and he sees Eldest's disagreement and independence and resistance at being treated like a child as disrespect. Most children and parents have to go through this.

I think my best plan is to leave them to it. H is not shouting or agressive: he's just know-it-all and unpleasant and I find him incredibly unattractive and unpleasant to be around when he's in this mood. H doesn't like me much when I don't back him up, and I am sure he feels that I don't respect his parenting choice in this area. Well, the fact is that I don't.

Eldest comes to me to complain about his father - says things like 'he just can't leave it,' and 'he just can't bear to be wrong' and his Father comes to me to complain about Eldest along the same lines. Eldest is capable of apologising when given time to calm down, and admitting fault, and attempting to do things differently. I see much less of that in H and so does Eldest, which feeds into the disrespect.

I wish he was a better parent. He is doing better than he was. I am sure he wishes I was a better parent too. I am trying to put a lot of slack into this, and give everyone a lot of grace and compassion as these are pretty crazy times and I am sure families up and down the country are having melt-downs and difficulties right now.

But I don't like feeling this way about my husband. He has been wanting to initiate sex with me and I have tried, but I just can't get into it. Part of it is that I am finding it hard to unwind and the general anxiety of the world's situation has put its affect on me. And part of it is that I find his know-it-all dominant behaviour, locking horns with a teenager and having to 'win' every interaction deeply, deeply unattractive. I'm afraid I've told him this. It probably wasn't the best idea, and I don't think I am being manipulative, only honest, but perhaps STFU would have been a better choice. I don't know.

Does anyone have any suggestions for me? I suspect H will be working a hell of a lot over the next few weeks, which should make things easier. I find Eldest and Youngest and household stuff much easier to manage when he isn't around, to be honest.

Originally Posted by Yail

I think this 'divide and conquer' approach works well for us, Yail. Or at least, it has been doing. We all need a lot more space and that's showing today. It also bothers me that our divide is so gendered - me being the woman at home in charge of house and hearth and kids, and him out in the world being heroic. But that's just my bad temper and I've kept it to myself. It does make me reflect, though, on how much of the deep-seated resentment in our relationship came from the fact that H felt powerless and like he didn't have a role in our marriage - I have always been the higher earner and up until recently the needs of my career came first. And generally I have had better relationships with the children too. He's probably felt pushed out and having a clear role (at the moment, that's working and going and getting supplies for us and doing all the 'outside' stuff - as the rest of us have to stay inside) seems to have made things easier. I feel a little sad that we're not able to co-operate as parents today - I can't get on board with his need to dominate and win every minor skirmish with Eldest and I believe that's more to do with his need for a show of respect / submission than I think it is to do with what is best for the kids - but we've had a bad day today and I will probably feel different tomorrow.

I hope things have improved! My H was pretty similar, he really struggled with the kids gaining independence and not being small children any more. Probably because he was home so little that he missed them growing up. Staying out of their clashes and not taking sides seems sensible. Re the sex, maybe telling him what you need to want to have sex might be more successful than telling him what you find unattractive? Does that make sense? It sounds like he will be too busy to bother with sex or with battling eldest anyway soon! Stay strong xx

It's a little more peaceful. They started up again a couple of days ago, and I (very bad DBing here) totally lost my temper, told them they were both as bad as each other and I wasn't going to be involved in their disputes anymore. I said the way Eldest spoke to H was unacceptable, and it was no wonder H wasn't particularly warm towards him or inclined to cut him much slack given how reactive and disrespectful he was. And I said H was goady and nit-picking and controlling and it was no wonder Eldest was reactive and surly with him. And as neither of them were interested in making any changes to how they acted towards each other, they could work it out between themselves but I was no longer willing to listen to either complain about the other, no matter what.

I think I have been trying, more or less, to do 'united front' parenting with H. And that works up to a point - but he is such a whining control freak when it comes to Eldest. And Eldest is a young man: the strategies that you might use with a younger child just don't apply to him. This is more of a relationship issue that a parenting issue. And both of them use me to triangulate: Eldest will complain about his father (and I validate) then H will be annoyed at me because I've been validating Eldest, or H will whine and moan about Eldest, and I validate, but if I do anything other than accept full blame and responsibility and vow to do better, he's displeased, and I am just so so so sick of it. A few days ago it got to the point where I'd left the room to do some work in my home office, and my phone was exploding with them both text messaging me complaining about the other. Lockdown has of course amplified this, but I am so done.

It was, as you can imagine, quite a lecture. Both of them were shocked. But I don't care and I mean to stick to it. Eldest isn't in any danger from H - H can be unpleasant and mean and quite cutting, but Eldest will have to learn that's the reaction he gets when he's so disrespectful and reactive. And H will have to learn that if he wants a better relationship with Eldest, he will have to look at his own approach. And until they learn to do that (both of them - and I hold out no particular hope) nothing will change. But I won't participate any more.

Both have tried testing these boundaries. Eldest tried, and I just gave him a warning and he left the room and was fine. H wanted to complain about how unfair it was that I said they were both as bad as each other. I said 'Yes. I appreciate you don't like my opinion. I don't plan on sharing it with you again but it is my opinion. And I don't plan having this conversation with you either now or in the future,' and I went back to my book. Unusually, he accepted that in fairly good humour.

So we will see how this new approach goes. I have noticed that the more assertive I am, the better for me things tend to be.

Sounds like you did a great job Alison and your message was received. Good for you. I completely agree with you. Parenting changes as kids age...it is supposed to. Your job when they are younger is to be the teacher and external control agent. And once they reach a certain age, your job is to be more of a guide and advisor and hopefully, if they have learned what you have taught them, the �control� comes from inside of them. This is a hard transition for some parents to make but it is a developmental necessity and the next step towards becoming a functional adult. I think you did exactly what you needed to do. Eldest and H will figure it out. (((HUGS)))

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I think we've both struggled with changing our parenting in different ways. I do think I have done too much for Eldest, been too protective of him - he does have health challenges but he could and should be more independent than he is - and have excused some poor attitude and choices that he really should have had consequences for. I haven't treated him as a young man in that respect and that has needed to change: my 180s on this are in progress, but not yet as consistent as I'd like them to be. H struggles with a similar challenge, but he tends to be very critical, micro-managing, not picking his battles, not allowing Eldest much autonomy and laying out punishments as if Eldest is a child - and that also needs to change.

I think my new 180 is to let Eldest and H work things out between themselves. They have a pretty terrible relationship at the moment and they both like to blame me for that. I guess the more I get in the way, the more they can take things out on me or expect me to improve things rather than looking at their own conduct. So I am stepping back entirely. It's also an act of self preservation: I am extremely stretched and stressed right now (as is everyone during this crisis) and I don't have any mental bandwidth for dealing with H's immaturity and Eldest's teenage tantrums.

How is everyone else doing?

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

[I think my new 180 is to let Eldest and H work things out between themselves. They have a pretty terrible relationship at the moment and they both like to blame me for that. I guess the more I get in the way, the more they can take things out on me or expect me to improve things rather than looking at their own conduct. So I am stepping back entirely. It's also an act of self preservation: I am extremely stretched and stressed right now (as is everyone during this crisis) and I don't have any mental bandwidth for dealing with H's immaturity and Eldest's teenage tantrums.

Hi Alison, I think this is a good call. In some sense, you stepping into their difficulties is enabling both of them to continue without acknowledging the other person or taking a look at their own behavior-- it all becomes a reflection of what Mom said or did or thinks. Not having teens I don't have any experience with that dynamic, but at least in general my only caution would be that it may get worse before it gets better between them, and it may be really difficult for you to continue to stay out of it. I think that you framing this for yourself as self-preservation to not get involved could really help you in this, but I do think you might need to steel yourself for some worse behavior from both of them before they can start to really listen to each other and work it out. (Also... do you think they have the tools to succeed at this? Not that that would change your approach, but just wondering how likely they are to be successful at working this out alone.)

Yes, I wondered that myself, May - if it would get worse. And if, given the other circumstances, I could actually cope with it getting worse right now. But as it happens, it's been very peaceful this past couple of days and they've actually spent some nice time together walking the dog - which hasn't happened in months. I wonder if their conflict was more to do with me or them wanting me to intervene than it was to do with each other. I don't know. It's early days yet. And I would have said, in answer to your second question - that no, I didn't think that either of them had the skills (or humility) to look at their own behaviour and make changes, rather than carry on pointing the finger at the other. That may be true - or I may be wrong - but either way, I can't really do anything about that right now. I guess doing nothing and taking a huge dose of the STFU soup is the best thing to do right now.

But when I zoom out from this one issue, actually, things in the house are going very well. H is working so hard, and is making such sacrifices and taking such risks to his health, and also going above and beyond domestically too - and I am seeing him take such care with Youngest's education, and being very attentive to what we all need. I guess I see, more than ever, and have learned to 'hear' that his love language is 'acts of service' and we are as a family badly in need of those.

I am having to learn - again - to let up on my controlling ways. I have such a lot of fear for the kids, and their education, and have been rushing them into home learning and online courses, etc. H seems a lot less fear-driven and more willing to just take each day as it comes. I'm learning to value that: he has a confidence in his parenting instincts (the bad side of that is a kind of inflexibility or unwillingness to review a decision and change course) that makes him a calmer pair of hands in a crisis, whereas I'm always second guessing myself (and the good side of that is flexibility, and a willingness to accept feedback and admit I am wrong) and chopping and changing and flapping about. I do think that on the whole we are balancing each other out much better, and part of that his him being gentler, and me being more assertive.

Wow, Alison. That reframing of the positive sides to his less flexible parenting style and the negative parts of your own flexibility... that feels very profound to me. And that you are balancing each other out and learning to take what serves you from the other's style... wow. I think that is amazing. And glad to hear that things are generally going so well both in the house across the board and between your H and eldest. It is really encouraging. Maybe the silver lining to the craziness going on in the world is that the crisis is pushing you all (eldest included!)-- whether because of the enforced togetherness or the sense of the weight and enormity of what is going on-- to get through some of the issues that had been there in the past.

Hi Alison, I hope things are still going ok with your H and between him and eldest! Now it's the school holidays maybe your anxiety will lessen. I've been surprised how well my kids have adapted to a very strange situation, but I have always trusted them to do their best at schoolwork and also that most of their learning takes place out of school (the stuff they know from the internet astonishes me daily!) It's good to see you valuing some of the differences between you and H, I think that is vital for any M. And also good to see you working on yourself, well done x

Hi Dilly

Eldest has been very difficult the past couple of days - Youngest too, actually. They are both finding this very hard, and I am finding it hard to get a balance between supporting their home learning and also getting my own work done. Youngest is not so young that she can't be left alone to entertain herself for a couple of hours, but seems to choose those times to deliberately get into trouble / make a mess / aggravate Eldest...

Eldest spent two days in the same nightwear, wouldn't wash, wouldn't do anything except stare at a screen or growl aggressively and belligerently at any interruption. Sometimes I find him very hard to like. I try to leave him alone, then really worry about his mental health (it can't be healthy to stay indoors in the dark with a screen for hours and hours on end) and his education. I know I will drive myself crazy if I don't find a way to let some of this go - you sound like you do a better job of that than I do, Dilly. I really lost my temper with Eldest this morning and said some unpleasant things (about him being lazy and in need of a shower...) so there needs to be some repairing done later but I can't bring myself right now.

H is okay - working hard, probably drinking a bit more than I'd like but he's either at work or dealing with a stressed wife or sleeping, so nobody is at their best right now. He's being very supportive of me and respectful of the pressures I am under, even though he's the frontline NHS person in the household. I do appreciate that and I feel closer to him this last week than I have done in some time, even though I'm seeing him much less than usual.

I miss things. Miss my hairdresser and coffeeshops and my friends. I came to rely on my friends a lot after BD and during separation - and that was new and so valuable to me that I didn't let it slide even when H came back. And now here we are in the house together and I can Skype and Zoom and I am doing, but I don't want more screen time after a day trying to keep up with my work via the screens - so he's pretty much my entire social life, which puts pressure on him that is unnecessary, and is no good for me as an individual or our marriage.

I think what I am asking for - in amongst the pity-party - is suggestions about how to GAL in lockdown...

I miss my GAL!

Hi Alison,

Just wanted to check in and see how you are doing. Have you been able to find ways to GAL and find your own space during this crazy COVID situation? How are the kids? Mine aren't teenagers yet but they also resist bathing sometimes like I am trying to boil them alive.

Anyway, hoping you and your family are doing OK. Thinking of you!!

hey Alison, how are you doing? Another whole month in lockdown since you posted, I hope you are ok. It is tough, no doubt about it. It feels endless even if you know it isn't. I was pretty upbeat the first month or so, but have found it tough the longer it's gone on. Thank goodness we're not like Spain not allowing outdoor exercise though, that would be crazy-making. I hope you're managing somehow xx

Hi everyone

I am okay. We are still in lockdown. The kids are getting more into a routine - out on a morning walk with me, some homeschool, some time alone doing reading / art / computer while I work, helping out with chores. I am expecting a lot more from them - both of them - when it comes to helping around the house, and I think it is doing them good. They are bored and resentful and sometimes bicker and sometimes it's just too much and we have very bad days, but most of the time it is okay.

H is at work more or less all the time. He is exhausted and is like an automaton most of the time ,but he has not emotionally withdrawn or detached and he is not taking his stress and exhaustion out on me or the kids. There are times when he is snappy and grumpy, and he will still lock horns with Eldest now and again, but the tension seems to be coming out of that relationship now both of them know I won't have anything to do with their drama. H is using what spare energy he has to help with the homeschooling and around the house - I don't think he's taking care of himself that well right now, but to be honest, with his work, and my work, and homeschool, and things being the way they are, we're just doing our best.

I feel very blue a lot of the time. I am in effect a SAHM which I never wanted to be and didn't sign up to be. I am still working at home, but not doing that well at it, to be honest. My boss is very understanding and the summer is a quieter time for us, but we're in the middle of crisis planning and so there are a lot of zoom meetings to attend which I find totally exhausting. I am attending my book group and seeing my friends and doing a few other things all electronically, which I appreciate and which does help, but like most other people, I am bored and lonely and stressed.

H will be okay in his job and is looking forward to a promotion this year. He's in medicine so there's no chance of him being made redundant. I am in a kind of related, adjacent sector but it is likely that there will be redundancies. We could live on either his salary or mine - we don't have an extravagant lifestyle and save a lot so we have a buffer - so I feel lucky and I am trying to concentrate on being grateful.

How is everyone else?

Well that all sounds pretty positive other than you feeling blue. I think everyone I know is struggling right now, there is only so much virtual interaction you can have without burning out, and it is just not so fulfilling socialising online compared with in person. I do yoga videos with a couple of friends once a week, that is quite a nice thing to do, just talk on the phone while you are doing an activity together. I also go for runs and walks and text photos to friends and they do the same. Still, it's not the same. I'm hopeful they will ease lockdown so we can at least go socially distanced running or walking with a friend or two before too long. I'm glad you are financially secure right now, that must be reassuring. Great job stepping out of the triangle between your H and eldest, that is quite something!

Thanks Dilly.

I think the blue I am feeling is ordinary, to be expected blue - for all the reasons that you outline. I am very very very lucky in that I can work from home, flexibly, the summer is generally my quieter time and my kids are healthy and we have enough money to eat well and pay a small mortgage. I'm grateful for savings, for better communication with my H, for the kids being mature and understanding (most of the time) and for the good weather we've been having which means we've been able to get outside in the garden a lot and for short walks with the dog every day.

I do feel quite lonely, and also in urgent need of solitude. I think I need some proper alone time with no demands made on me first - and I think H does, and we're both suffering from the lack of it. Date nights and time together has totally done out of the window, but I don't feel like he's not interested and it isn't that I'm not interested - we're both just running on empty right now.

When the schools go back I am going to spend an entire day lying in bed with the dog reading and eating cake.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

When the schools go back I am going to spend an entire day lying in bed with the dog reading and eating cake.

Alison, is there a way you can even get a sliver of that now? My H took the kids on a hike, I felt a teeny bit guilty for staying back but then I laid on the couch and ate chips and read a novel and even just that little two hour window was amazing. Can you lock yourself in your bedroom even for an hour (maybe during work hours while your kids are engaged in schoolwork) and read and eat that cake? I feel we all need to be compassionate for ourselves, and give ourselves a break when we need it.

That is so funny about lying in bed eating cake, I agree with may that you could do that now but maybe you need it to be a celebration of normality. This pandemic is brutal isn't it. It's a lot like a marriage crisis in that you struggle with the uncertainty, you don't know what the end is going to look like, you're bored and lonely and anxious and self care needs to be top of your list. Ah well, these marriage problems have taught us that we are not in control of anything except ourselves, and that patience and compassion are essential. Both those translate pretty well to global pandemics too! I have been thinking hard about how I want to come out of all this (pandemic and marriage) a better person. I read an interesting article the other day about Groundhog Day in the context of the pandemic and how we all think we will be ice-sculpting, French-poetry-speaking Phil and in reality we are alcohol-swilling, self-destructive, miserable Phil. But like Groundhog Day we get a fresh chance each day to choose the Phil we wish to be (or are capable of being, some days the ice-sculpting is too much). I love this analogy.

It really is brutal!

I think we're doing okay. I am trying to make some time in my life to actually enjoy the quietness, the lack of a commute, the empty streets when I walk the dog, the flexibility of choosing my own hours. A lot of this involve my letting go of anxiety and a wish to control - and that is very difficult for me. But a good life lesson.

I am getting a different perspective on things. Have spent hardly anything the last few weeks - and it makes me realising how much I have, and how little I need. Obviously the sunshine helps, and the kids being older, and I know how spectacularly lucky I am to be working from home, and paid as usual, and healthy. My job isn't 100% safe but we could survive fine on what H brings in, and his is.

So more and more I am feeling peace and happiness in the day to day. I don't often feel lack of trust or worry about H, even though I know he is probably working and seeing the OW now and again. I never think to ask - it doesn't really feel important. We still have full transparency but I guess I am just focused on myself and my own life and what I need, and I also think that if he was doing something that would hurt me, well, I would be okay.

We do still have our moments. Eldest remains difficult - at least every other day there's some skirmish or conflict about something. This is his temperament, his hormones, he's been a victim of two very different parenting styles that have only recently come into harmony - but he is also now a young man and I think perhaps it is appropriate I am holding him more responsible for his actions. I don't think he understands that unpleasant behaviour makes it hard for me to want to be around him, but obviously when he feels rejected, he's more likely to behave unpleasantly. I can tolerate that and love the heck out of a toddler in that dynamic, but perhaps a young man who is bigger than I am needs to feel more natural consequences. I don't know. But I am doing my best.

H and I are getting on well. There are moments there too - he is tired and sometimes grumpy and irritable. Nobody is getting the time alone that they need. His job is extremely stressful and sometimes traumatic at the moment. I do understand this, but sometimes I feel unappreciated anyway - and trapped too - I didn't sign up to be a SAHM and I don't want to be one! But most of the resentments and skirmishes between us are minor - it isn't like a forgotten tea-cup in the bedroom turns into a long list of all the terrible aspects of who I am as a person any more. I'd never stand for that again, but I just don't think he's in that place any more. I don't really know what changed for him, but I know what changed for me was boundaries and assertiveness.

It's strange, but I actually think H takes up less of my head and my heart than he used to. I don't mean that I am unforgiving (I think we're just about past that - or at least, today it feels like we are) or that I am withholding or cold. I just mean - I used to expect him to meet all my emotional needs. When he left, for months all I could think about was how sad I was about that, and what I should do or not do to get him back. When he came back, all I could think of was what I needed to do to get things to work, or whether it was the right thing or not, or worry that I'd thrown myself into a horrible situation and I was about to put myself and my kids through the worst of it all over again.

Now it isn't like that. I think we maintain things okay - there's not much in the way of 'date' type activities right now - we're like ships that pass in the night, but there is affection and compromise and negotiation over how we make the practicalities of everything work. I do know he's stressed and anxious because he's told me (which is a change) and he does know that I am frustrated and missing my friends (as I have told him) but we're not focusing too much on that - he can't carry me or my emotions right now, and I don't want him to. I'm not available to be his punch bag any more - and I don't think he wants that for me either. So it feels as if each of us taking care of our own emotional needs has put a bit more space between us, but it isn't a cold or lonely space. I am actually really valuing my time alone in a way that I didn't really know how to do before - and that is new.

I hope all this makes sense!

that makes a lot of sense, you are doing really well in every area of life, you've made so much progress. Be proud of your accomplishments

Thank you Dilly. It doesn't feel like an accomplishment, weirdly enough. It feels more like - I don't know - not something I have TRIED to do, but a peace that comes from the results of stopping trying. I wish I could apply this more to my kids - I've been riding all over them about their school work, and even as I was doing it I was remembering saying that you have always trusted your kids just to get on with it - and they have - and realising the only thing that stops me doing that is a lack of courage.

But I have also decided I'm not doing Eldest's laundry for him any more. His room is a disgrace and he throws the clean and folded laundry on his floor along with the dirty stuff. Rather than nag him, I am just going to close the door on it and let him deal with the consequences of his laziness himself. Wish me luck on this. I told H and he laughed and said 'you'll crack before he does...' so it's a point of honour now!

Update:

so, things have been hard the last week or so. I think perhaps everyone is finding lockdown difficult, and while here in the UK there have been some small adjustments to what we can and can't do - we can drive to places away from home to exercise and meet one person outside with social distancing - it hasn't made much of a material difference in the way we're living. H still working long hours and exhausted most of the time, Youngest still playing up as she's lonely and needing more social stimulation than I can provide, my place of work still closed and in financial freefall, and Eldest still not at school and increasingly sullen, withdrawn, terrible attitude when spoken to about anything. He's been making horrible snide comments towards me and H and his sister all day today - both H and I have snapped at various points, which seems to be what he wants. Other than take his tech away (which he needs to complete school work he's now refusing to do) we're both out of ideas in setting consequences for him. He's refusing to come out on walks - we took a drive out to the coast yesterday for some fresh air and a change of scene and mood and he refused to come, then whined about being left out - refusing to eat with us (takes his meals in his room - and if I don't allow it, he doesn't eat) and isn't, as far as I can tell, in contact with any friends or wider family.

This is very very difficult for him and he is worried about his exams, his future, college prospects, missing his friends - all of that. And I've done what I can to make sure he has what he needs, some extra allowance so he can do some internet shopping for treats and entertainment, cooking nice meals, trying to include him as much as possible - special film nights, one on one time etc. But his attitude is so appalling it's awful to be around him. It's a vicious circle of course - he's unpleasant to be around, so I avoid him, so he's lonely and isolated and angry, which makes him more unpleasant. I'm the parent so it is my job to make the first move, but any suggestion or effort I make seems to trigger more hostility from him. I've spoken to his House Head at the school, who was very sympathetic, but basically said all teenagers were like this and they were all struggling. Which is probably true, but makes it no easier to bear.

I miss him, really. Miss spending enjoyable time with him. And I hate how I am feeling at the moment: he has some amazing qualities and is a creative and sensitive and funny person, but all I'm seeing is his anger and self-pity and argumentative nature right now, and I have so little bandwidth to deal with it. H and I have argued over it a couple of times - which scares both of us, I think. H is now at the point that when he cooks he is refusing to serve or lay a place for Eldest as Eldest is so rude and hostile and unpleasant he doesn't want to do anything for him. We're not starving hi - there's always food there - and I can understand how exhausted and angry and exasperated H is - I feel that way too - but his approach seems to be driving more of a wedge between them than existed previously.

If anyone has any suggestions for me, I would appreciate that. I've thought of making a GP's appointment and asking about depression - but I'm pretty sure half the population would meet the diagnostic criteria for depression at the moment. I don't think there's drugs involved (he's always here in the house, hasn't been out on his own at all since lockdown) and there might be some girl/boyfriend trouble going on but if there is, I know nothing about it and he won't say a word to me.

Hi Allison,

I�m new here, but can totally relate to what you are going through with your son. I am going through similar stuff with my tween. It�s interesting, because as I was reading DR and all the stories on this site, it made me realize that the techniques we apply to our marriage really could be used with any relationship (with adjustments).

With my tween (who is also miserable being away from friends, hates homeschooling, pestering his siblings, angry outbursts at us adults etc), I have started to:

-Validate his emotions (with an emphasis on naming his feelings, helping him identify why he is feeling the way he does etc)
-Detach (lovingly, basically not taking his insults or actions personally and really trying to understand that his struggles are circumstantial due to his age and the current situation)
-Set boundaries (which it sounds like you are doing a good job of!)

Anyway, just my 2 cents!

Warmly,
Sage

Hi Alison,

That sounds so difficult. I don't have any good advice but like Sage's notes above... which are all things you are quite skilled at.

I don't think it is a bad idea to talk to the GP, and maybe get him a session or two with an IC if he'll do it. I remember reading a book when my children were toddlers about how to defuse tantrums, which basically was getting down on their level and matching their emotions/tone with a validating statement. (For instance, child is freaking out about not getting X, you say, you are SO MAD you don't have X! I understand! down on your knees looking them in the face.) I know it sounds silly and I never really followed the advice, but now that my oldest is in the tween years and having some difficulties regulating emotion I've been thinking about that book and trying it a little. Basically validation but using other cues to really show you get it and are on their side, and it has really seemed to defuse the situation.

I also recall reading in one of these R books (maybe MWD, can't remember) with a vignette where the H was always complaining about his boss, and the W was always trying to be logical and help the H see the boss's side. The H would get angry and they'd fight. The next time it happened the W 180ed but went all out-- said OMG, your boss is such a jerk, how could he even think or say that? raised her voice, became totally indignant on the H's behalf. It completely defused the situation and the H ended up saying on his own it wasn't that big of a deal with the boss. He just needed to know his W was on his side.

Anyway, again without having an experience with a teenager-- what would it look like to totally and completely validate him, be 110% on his side? When he complains about something legit, really side with him, I know that is SO TERRIBLE I feel like that too, let's just leave all our work right now and go get some ice cream. Or something along those lines. I'm sure, just like all of us, he acts like a jerk, then gets embarrassed he acted like a jerk, which then causes him to withdraw more and it is just a deadly circle. Anything you can do to help him break out of it even if it means dropping the ball on homework or whatever one night.

Finally... as they say, put the oxygen mask on yourself first... be sure to try (as much as you can) to carve out the time and space you need for your own peace and sanity. You won't have any to give to your kids if you don't have it for yourself.

Hang in there! I'm glad things are going well between you and your H. He has come a long way!

Originally Posted by Sage4

-Validate his emotions (with an emphasis on naming his feelings, helping him identify why he is feeling the way he does etc)
-Detach (lovingly, basically not taking his insults or actions personally and really trying to understand that his struggles are circumstantial due to his age and the current situation)
-Set boundaries (which it sounds like you are doing a good job of!)

Sage

Sage - this is such good advice. Really really good. It helps to be reminded about the basics of handling yourself in relationships, and that these basics apply to all relationships - not just my marital one. Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by May22

Anyway, again without having an experience with a teenager-- what would it look like to totally and completely validate him, be 110% on his side? When he complains about something legit, really side with him, I know that is SO TERRIBLE I feel like that too, let's just leave all our work right now and go get some ice cream. Or something along those lines. I'm sure, just like all of us, he acts like a jerk, then gets embarrassed he acted like a jerk, which then causes him to withdraw more and it is just a deadly circle. Anything you can do to help him break out of it even if it means dropping the ball on homework or whatever one night.

Thanks for this reminder May. I am going to try it. I don't think I've been very good at validating the emotion behind the hostile behaviour. I'm really really bad at dealing with other people's anger without getting upset or defensive, and Eldest does have plenty to be angry about right now. I see that when he does't feel validated he really really blows up (he feels like it is worse for him than anyone else, and when I've tried to point out that all the kids in his year are going through the same thing, he gets very angry with me - I guess as he is feeling corrected and invalidated).

It's very hard - almost impossible - to do this on any of his feelings towards his father. I privately feel that H is not very good at all at connecting with Eldest - he wants to teach or correct or improve him, but there is very little in the way of acceptance going on. H has expressed to me that he feels unappreciated and unloved by Eldest and I can validate that - Eldest is distant or sometimes hostile a lot of the time, and does rebuff many of H's attempts to spend time together. Though there have been improvements there - there really have - this is still a fragile relationship. And when Eldest is angry because he feels rejected by his father (who has a much warmer and easier relationship with Youngest) if I validate that and H catches me doing it, he gets very upset with me and angry himself. It has helped me taking myself out of the eye of the storm of their disputes - I won't be involved in peacemaking or repair work between them any more - but only a couple of days ago Eldest was talking to me about how his father didn't like being around him. I said some version of 'I can see you're really angry and hurt about that and it must be horrible,' and H overheard and was really annoyed at me about it. I can see both their points of view very well and it is a sad situation and they are both as bad (or unskilled) as each other, and I am concentrating on not making it worse, having accepted I can't repair it for them.

I have made a GP's appointment for Eldest and also spoken again to his House Head today - he's going to reach out to Eldest personally and see how he is doing this afternoon. Eldest did have some IC some time ago, but refused to go to the appointments and is refusing to see anyone else, though I will also offer that again if the time seems right.

Teens are tough to deal with. I think it's good that eldest is talking, even if it's expressing frustration and anger. Both my teens are pretty shut down right now, they chat to each other a lot and laugh together, but with me unless they are in the car (currently nowhere to go though...) they don't really talk at all. They both seem a bit depressed sometimes, which I think is kind of inevitable both when you are a teen and things are changing physically and emotionally, and when peer groups are very important but unavailable right now. It is going to be a long summer!! You seem like you're doing well staying out of the dynamic between H and eldest, keep reminding yourself that they need to work it out and that none of this (pandemic or adolescence) will last forever xx

Thanks everyone.

So, it's been a strange few days and I feel like I've either taken a big step back in my marriage or a big step forward in detachment. I genuinely don't know, and I'd appreciate a sanity check on this.

H had a work disappointment recently and he took is pretty hard. Generally the way he deals with stress and anxiety is to withdraw and (in my view) drink a bit too much. I could see this was happening, and it never works when I try to draw him out of his shell, and I also don't care to be around him when he's drinking, so I just gave him some space and left him to it.

On one of these nights, he came to bed while I was still awake. I put my arms around him and said 'is there anything I can do to help you or comfort you?' and he said 'no,' - pretty gruffly. I could feel he wasn't welcoming my touching him (it wasn't a sexual touch, just a hug) so I let go, said good night and turned over to go to sleep. A few minutes later he said 'you're not going to start crying and having a go at me now, are you?' - I had some headphones in so I took them out and turned around and asked him what the problem was, and he said the same thing again, but in a really beligerent manner. I said, 'I just want to go to sleep,' and he asked me again if I was sure I just wanted to go to sleep. I was baffled. By that point it was pretty clear he was slightly the worse for wear for drink and I remembered how it went the last time I gave him an inch of listening room while he was drinking - and I do have a boundary around that - so I just turned over and went to sleep.

In the morning he was quite sullen with me. I asked again if there was anything I could do to help him and he said no again, and I said, 'okay. And the way you spoke to me last night was not acceptable to me. I did nothing wrong, and it isn't okay for you to treat me that way no matter how you are feeling. You owe me an apology.' He rolled his eyes and sniggered (I haven't seen that petty and sarcastic side of him for a good while) so I left the room.

Since then - that was about three days ago - I have kept my distance. We've been perfectly cordial and communicating when necessary for the sake of practicalities and the children. We're like ships in the night anyway - working and homeschooling and relay parenting - so this wouldn't be unusual - except he won't make eye contact with me, there's no friendly or affectionate touches, he sits in a room on his own with his headphones on when he's not engaging with the children and after they've gone to bed, and that's it. It's basically like an in-house separation.

This was the kind of treatment that used to drive me to all kinds of crazy behaviour before BD. I think part of it is self preservation - I suspect he's exhausted, and he's taken his work disappointment to heart and is feeling some humiliation (he is MASSIVELY motivated by what he imagines other people think of him - he's a man that runs on shame) so much of this is nothing to do with me. I also think he's feeling controlled by my request that he apologise to me. I think I reacted in that moment as I was thinking about that night - a couple of months ago now - where he turned up to bed drunk and started tearing into me out of the blue, taking out all his self-inflicted resentments and complaints on me. It was hurtful and I was so clear it was never to happen again. I was scared it was about to happen which is why i cut off a frankly strange line of questioning from him and went to sleep, and why I was so trenchant with him the next morning - I really need him to know I will no longer take this &#*$ from him. But he probably feels told off, and he used to tell me quite often 'when you're not nice to be around, I won't be around you' and then give me days and days of stonewalling and silent treatment like this. I am struggling today to pick apart the two - how much of this is his self preservation in a time of stress - and how much of this is punishing behaviour.

What's different is that I am not being driven crazy. I am not distressed or hurt or desperately trying to placate him or cajole him into being nice to me again. I will never go back to that. I'm not doing any of the pursuer type behaviours I used to do. I also don't feel the stress or anxiety or sense of worthlessness that I used to feel. I feel a bit of pity for him, and, if I am honest, a fair bit of the old contempt - that he's still in the habit of treating his wife like this when there's something going on either in his life or in his marriage that isn't to his liking.

I am taking care of myself. The kids. Working and getting outside and doing my share in the house and seeing my friends. I am trying to take into account that he's working hard in a stressful role and has had little time to himself for weeks. I am also trying to take into account that we're different people, and while my way would be to talk things through, his way - to let things lie - isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think in the past if he'd have rejected my attempt to get close or comfort him I would have been upset or nagging or distressed and made it all about me and my feelings, and he was probably reacting to that old pattern, rather than what was actually happening. And that's on him and I won't take responsibility for it, though I can understand it.

Ideas of where to go now? I guess I've been doing DB to the letter the past few days and feeling fine, but at some point a repair or reconnection will have to happen and I have no idea how to go about it without resorting to pursuing, and I won't do that, as it feeds his distancing behaviours and rewards his punishing behaviours.

Edited to add: what would normally happen is that I'd get really upset and demand a conversation about this, where we'd talk for ages and ages, and eventually he'd give some form of apology and I'd eventually extract some empathy from him. I really don't want to go back there again: it was bad for me, bad for him and bad for our marriage. I'm also unwilling to take responsibility for the way he feels right now. Part of me just wants to leave him alone and see how long he feels like keeping this up, though that also feels immature and like a 'he started it' type of action. He did act badly, I can understand why, and I told him it wasn't acceptable. I don't think either of us know how to move on from there. There won't be an apology - he's too proud and fragile to even countenance that - and while he might want to make it my fault, I don't care to accept that and his opinions aren't of interest to me right now.

Hi Alison,

I don't know that I'd consider any of this a major setback in your R. These things will happen, there will be times of stress (and this is probably one of the most stressful times for every human being on the planet right now) where one or both of you will revert back to past behavioral patterns. It happens. I think the key is how you move forward once it does. I think you're doing a great job of not letting his behavior drive your emotions-- that is a healthy thing-- and examining the entire episode to look at how you may have contributed to the situation. All very positive things, in my view, around what you can control. I guess if I had any general suggestion it would be to do a little more sitting in your H's shoes, what he's dealing with, how he must be feeling generally, and while he isn't handling those emotions well, he is still in a difficult spot and maybe he does still need empathy from you even when he can't really do a very good job of accepting it.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I also think he's feeling controlled by my request that he apologise to me. I think I reacted in that moment as I was thinking about that night - a couple of months ago now - where he turned up to bed drunk and started tearing into me out of the blue, taking out all his self-inflicted resentments and complaints on me. It was hurtful and I was so clear it was never to happen again. I was scared it was about to happen which is why i cut off a frankly strange line of questioning from him and went to sleep, and why I was so trenchant with him the next morning - I really need him to know I will no longer take this &#*$ from him. But he probably feels told off, and he used to tell me quite often 'when you're not nice to be around, I won't be around you' and then give me days and days of stonewalling and silent treatment like this. I am struggling today to pick apart the two - how much of this is his self preservation in a time of stress - and how much of this is punishing behaviour.

I can totally relate here. My H has often felt controlled by my request for an apology. I think to him it feels like bowing to your authority made even more stinging because he knows you're probably right, you're the calm one, the mature one, etc. At least in my situation when a similar dynamic is present, I know (from conversations after the fact) that H feels trapped and angry and the one thing he can control is himself, so by NOT apologizing and NOT engaging he's demonstrating his own autonomy. It may be less about punishing you and more about feeling in control on his end.

I'm not sure that makes much of a difference, but just wanted to say that the request (usually interpreted as a demand) for an apology and my H feeling like being controlled dynamic has been present in my M too, for a long time, and something we are both working on. Me, by not asking for an apology any more, just stating how I feel and not asking/telling him to do anything about it, H by actually apologizing on his own within a relatively short window of time. He generally still needs a little time to cool off and I'll give it to him, say my piece, walk away, not sulk or be angry, just do something else-- and he'll come find me and apologize. The other thing I try to do now is actually accept the apology and not be a B about it and rub in why I deserve the apology etc. That was something I used to do that was not beneficial to either of us, and I do my best to avoid it now. I know it added to his unwillingness to apologize because he felt he'd get a further scolding, which contributed then to his feeling like I was controlling, I was infantilizing him, etc. Again, not sure this helps. Just thinking that you may need to cut him some slack on this. He's not perfect, but he's improved immeasurably. He will slip, especially in times of stress, and maybe it is OK to move forward without an apology this time.

(Now I'm seeing your edited to add portion at the bottom and see that the dynamic was pretty present in your R too... the way you describe demanding the conversation and extracting an apology is exactly where we were too. Ugh. Agreed it is a bad thing. Maybe just as you were triggered by his drinking and weird behavior, he was triggered by your turning away and then asking for an apology.)

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

What's different is that I am not being driven crazy. I am not distressed or hurt or desperately trying to placate him or cajole him into being nice to me again. I will never go back to that. I'm not doing any of the pursuer type behaviours I used to do. I also don't feel the stress or anxiety or sense of worthlessness that I used to feel. I feel a bit of pity for him, and, if I am honest, a fair bit of the old contempt - that he's still in the habit of treating his wife like this when there's something going on either in his life or in his marriage that isn't to his liking.

I think it is a good thing that you've pulled yourself out of your old habits, and you genuinely feel OK about it now. That is great.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

I am taking care of myself. The kids. Working and getting outside and doing my share in the house and seeing my friends. I am trying to take into account that he's working hard in a stressful role and has had little time to himself for weeks. I am also trying to take into account that we're different people, and while my way would be to talk things through, his way - to let things lie - isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think in the past if he'd have rejected my attempt to get close or comfort him I would have been upset or nagging or distressed and made it all about me and my feelings, and he was probably reacting to that old pattern, rather than what was actually happening. And that's on him and I won't take responsibility for it, though I can understand it.

Again, all positives on your end. I especially think it is good that you're open to seeing if his way can work too-- letting it lie. I see the parallels here in what I was talking about in my own thread too-- H seeing the old patterns, or even just being afraid that the old patterns might be there, and responding to that rather than opening his eyes to what is actually happening. I like what you said on my thread, that this is his journey to move through and there isn't much you can do other than keep being consistent on your side.

Originally Posted by AlisonUK

Ideas of where to go now? I guess I've been doing DB to the letter the past few days and feeling fine, but at some point a repair or reconnection will have to happen and I have no idea how to go about it without resorting to pursuing, and I won't do that, as it feeds his distancing behaviours and rewards his punishing behaviours.

Here's what I think, for you to take or leave. Can you try a sideways repair, like make a joke, do something silly or fun that you know he'll enjoy? Just do something nice for him and let him find it without needing him to say thank you or responding in some way? Also-- letting go of the need for him to apologize, for him to be the first one to repair, giving him a break this time with Covid and his work troubles and just doing something kind for him without any expectations of what he does in response. And maybe you have to do that more than once. But my guess is that he'd jump at the chance to repair without having to address the exact situation right now, apologize, whatever, and maybe down the line when you're both feeling more trust and willingness to engage, you can talk it through. I think maybe a sideways repair or humor could be a good way to put out feelers without pursuit/pressure.

The stonewalling and contempt, concerns with how to repair... wondering if you haven't read Gottman recently, it might be a good time just to give you some food for thought on how to deal with these feelings on your end and behaviors on his.

A, I am so sorry you are back in a momentary rut.

Trailing on what May suggested, my gestalt is that he needs saving from himself. I can see that it may feel like you are stepping back into territory you promised yourself you wouldn�t enter any more in your M (for your own self-preservation, rightly so). But sometimes we all need a get-out-of-jail-free pass. Your H�s work stresses led to him to self-medicating with alcohol, which led to him treating you in a disrespectful way, which undoubtedly he feels bad about, even if he can�t show it. You have mentioned that he doesn�t have many close friends or outlets, which we all really need right now, especially if we are at the forefront of the pandemic. You are bearing the brunt of all of his emotions, stresses and trauma right now, for better or for worse.

I might be out of line suggesting this, but what if you forgave him? Without conditions? Just a complete do-over? What if you gave him exactly what you would want in his situation? I am envisioning a big hug with a whispered �we will get through this, I am on your team� and leave it at that? That may be my own projection speaking here, so do what is authentic to you and your situation. But human nature craves acceptance and forgiveness. Especially damaged, pent-up, emotionally challenged human natures. They just don�t know how to ask for it.

Before our current situation, my H and I would intentionally acquiesce to the more �needy� or �damaged� of the two of us in whatever crisis we were going through. Whomever was stronger or more capable in the moment was expected to be the bigger person and reach out to the other with love and acceptance (didn�t always happen, but 95% of the time it did). Typically it included naming feelings with words like �come here, poppet, I can see that you are really tired and cranky right now and don�t really mean what you are saying. I love you, just come here..� Sometimes the aggrieved party would fight it (�I�m NOT tired, I am super angry that you did XYZ�). But with enough gentle persistence, the �stronger� of the two of us never failed to bring the �weaker� party to the loving bargaining table. It�s hard to bear a grudge against someone who sees and accepts you for who you are in that moment.

Keep what fits and throw away the rest of my advice!

Thanks both.

Well, last night he came to bed very late. I was still awake, and he said 'why are you being so horrible with me?' - but in a really confrontational, argumentative tone. I wasn't sure if he'd been drinking or not (I was GAL with some friends online in another room in the evening) so I just said I wanted to go to sleep. He dropped it. This morning he was cordial enough, though still carrying on with the lack of eye contact, speaking only when needed. Once Youngest was out of the way, he said 'so I want you to guarantee that you're not going to start shouting and screaming at me.' I've been perfectly calm throughout all of this - in fact, we haven't had an argument where I've raised my voice for weeks. So I took this as him picking a fight, and made an excuse and left the room. A few minutes later he came to find me and said, quite belligerently, 'I asked you a question, why are you ignoring me?' and I said, 'I'm not ignoring you, I just don't want to have a conversation like that.' He said, 'like what?' and I said 'where you make me explain or defend myself around something that just isn't happening. I don't want to, so I'm not going to.' I was very calm and quiet through all of this. He then went on a bit of a half hearted rant, mind-reading me: 'You expect me to apologise when I've done nothing wrong, etc etc,' and I said, 'I don't expect anything. I just want to get on with my work,' then came away from him again.

Quote

This all sounds very sensible and kind, May. I've got to be honest with you, I think that probably would work and he'd probably be relieved if I did this for him. But I don't want to. I need to examine that a bit - perhaps immaturity on my part - but this is all happening in the context that he's not only my husband, but for a long time he was my abuser. I put a lot of self development work through therapy and reading and talking to people and making changes into responding to his abuse differently. I'm nowhere near perfect in my 180s or in enacting my healthy boundaries. And I still have a ton of resentment about the way he treated me in the past. Not the EA - but the blame and the months and months of bullying and verbal abuse when it was discovered. It feels vital to me not to get into a dynamic where I am responding to his moods and sulks and fight-picking and punishing behaviours with anything like pacifying or placating. I don't know what that would look like other than just going dark and not getting into conversations where he isn't treating me with respect, and at the moment that means little to no talking. I will think about it though.

Originally Posted by Sage4

What if you gave him exactly what you would want in his situation? I am envisioning a big hug with a whispered �we will get through this, I am on your team� and leave it at that? That may be my own projection speaking here, so do what is authentic to you and your situation. But human nature craves acceptance and forgiveness. Especially damaged, pent-up, emotionally challenged human natures. They just don�t know how to ask for it.

Sage - thank you for this. I can see how it might work with a different person, in a different dynamic. A few months ago (on my last thread) he was in a similar state of stress and massively over-reacted to my asking if he had put any fuel in the car. There was no 'tone' on my part - I was asking because if he hadn't done it, I would go and do it. He took it as criticism and started ranting. I tried to hug him and say 'hey, it's fine, you've got the wrong end of the stick,' and he pushed me away and said 'you come at me and I'll come back at you twice as hard,' which at the time I took as some kind of threat - not necessarily of physical abuse, but of the verbal abuse he's resorted to very often in the past. I believe he experiences me trying to comfort him in those situations as invalidating, controlling and even smothering. I think the only thing that would make him happy if for me to be very abject and apologetic and sorrowful and accept a lot of the spew he wants to throw my way. That isn't on the menu. Now when he's argumentative or unpleasant or irrational, I leave him entirely alone - he's succeeded in driving me away and losing the opportunity for comfort from his wife. You'll also see this latest bout of nonsense started when I tried to hug him and ask him what I could do for him, and the next morning before I told him he was behaving unacceptably, I also asked him if there was anything I could do to help.

I know if it was someone else writing this I'd say that they weren't telling the full story - that they must have been contributing to that dynamic. And I know in the past that I did. I pursued my socks off in really dysfunctional ways that came across to him as extremely critical and aggressive. My emotions got the better of me and I'd get nearly hysterical trying to extract some empathy from him, explaining myself or the situation, pointing out that he had a part to play, trying to educate him about his own feelings and thoughts. I cringe when I think of how I used to behave. It was all very toxic and manipulative on my part - though I also have a lot of self-compassion - I knew no other way of responding to his abuse. I know better now and those kind of behaviours aren't happening anymore, but he sometimes acts as if it they are, and when he does act like that, I can't come anywhere near him without triggering his defence mechanisms, which are generally either stonewalling and withdrawal (if I am lucky) or sarcasm, name-calling, belittling and shaming language and verbal abuse. My boundary is rock-solid around all that nonsense. I can understand the place he is in, but I really don't think it is healthy for it to be my emotional labour that gets him out of it. I changed without help or support from him - for the benefit of myself, primarily, and all my relationships. He gets to decide if he does the same, or not.

I'm actually feeling very unsettled now. This morning he's approached me twice (I am working in the home office so not in his way or getting in his business - he has a day off shift today) and said he'd bought some presents for Youngest's birthday. He told me what he'd bought and I said, 'I think she'll like those things' then he rolled his eyes and said, 'only you know, I have to be very careful that you won't go mental if you don't approve,' - I made a listening noise and went back to my work. A bit later he asked me which friend I was seeing tonight. I'd told him this this morning - when we were planning the day and who would care for Youngest in the evening - and I said, 'oh, it's Avril' and he said, 'yes, you said that this morning but you had to think about it a long time so it sounds like you're making it up.' I think he's desperate for me to defend myself so he can have the argument he's looking for, so I just made another listening noise and turned back to my work. He's on his computer now very ostentatiously looking for two bedroomed flats to rent.

I literally have NO IDEA what is going on with him, but am determined to be calm and not engage and take care of myself. I do feel very anxious about what he's going to do to escalate now it's clear he's not getting the response he either dreads or expects or wants.

Hi Alison,

It sounds as though he's really spinning and in a bad spot.

I know it is especially difficult for you since there is the history of abuse, and the last thing you want to do is placate him or get yourself wrapped back into that dynamic.

However, it also sounds to me like he's really having an incredibly difficult time and has no idea how to handle it. Is there something at all you can do to help him, even while not engaging in his craziness? Something that you can be OK with, thinking about it less in terms of allowing him to treat you in a certain way or reinforcing his behaviors with your own seeming acceptance, and more about just reaching out a hand to help him when he's so clearly in crisis?

One thought I had-- what if you wrote him a note and slipped it to him? Said you know he's really upset and you'd like to talk with him about it but you're worried he'll get angry or yell and you simply can't do that with him any more. You might say you never meant to make him feel badly and are sorry that he's having such a rough time, and to please let you know if there is anything at all you can do to help him. Anything along those lines that is true from your standpoint but also lets him know you care about him and want to know how he's doing. Then you can walk away and let him read it without responding in the moment. Maybe that is a way to defuse the situation without giving him the opening to let out his frustrations on you?

Alison, thank you for the gentle response to my suggestions. I admire how strong, brave and beautiful you are in not accepting abuse any longer. I apologize if my post was inappropriately informed.

You are in such a challenging position. Is there any way that you might be able to approach this current situation together with a MC? Therapy is available via video or calls right now where we are at, and most have more availability than usual so you might be able to find someone quickly. I have found that mentioning that you and H are in a 'crisis' tends to get a quicker response from a therapist. Maybe having a third party 'mediate' the conversation would help your H get over his crisis without causing more harm? This is all predicated on H's willingness to join in a conversation with a MC, so it may not be an option for you right now.

I also like May's suggestion of a note. Or an email or text. If you feel you can do so without breaking your own boundaries surrounding the abusive behavior.

And for a 2x4: do you really want to be married to H? Is this really working for you? If so, where can you be flexible to accommodate his crisis? And if not, what is the next step for you?

((hugs))

Thanks, both. I really appreciate your advice.

I think I am too unsettled and anxious to do anything for or with H right now and I need to take care of myself first. I notice how resistant I am to reaching out to him in anyway after my first couple of attempts were rebuffed. And the suggestions I am getting for you both are really great - they are - and I don't mean to be a dingle about it. I guess I am afraid. And I want to notice that fear and sit with it a bit. There are parts of me that are still very afraid of my husband and that is as a direct consequence of his abusive behaviour towards me. The right thing to do here is to keep myself emotionally safe, make sure the kids see no arguments or unhealthy discussions between us and let him deal with his demons on his own for the time being. That might change sometime soon, but my priority today is me.

I had GAL last night - didn't talk about H, just a socially distanced walk with a friend who I haven't seen in three months because of the lockdown. I can't say I wasn't worried about what I'd come home to - given that he'd said he didn't believe me when I said who I would be with - but I didn't explain myself and just watched some TV on my own and went to bed after I got back. This morning I got up early to take the dog out. When I got back I went back to bed for a few minutes. He was awake and I guess I was hoping just lying near him would give us a chance to reconnect. He huffed and rolled his eyes and said 'what's wrong with you?' and I said 'what do you mean?' (this was a mistake and gave him a way in) and he said 'why aren't you getting up and getting Youngest's breakfast?' He's off shift today and I'm working and we didn't have any particular arrangement about who would do what - usually I do it if he's working and he does it if he's not. I just got up and left him to it. He tried another few times with some fight-picking statements but I ignored him and now I'm tucked away in the home office. He told me to clean it this morning (it's a stand-alone building he never goes in and it is untidy, but it has no impact on him or anyone else - it's my space) and I asked him why (another mistake) and he huffed and stropped away.

Sage - you ask a good question. I was so ambivalent about H coming back - I've never in my hear really 100% committed to this marriage, because of my fear - and one of my fears was that H would keep up his changes as long as things were easy for him, but at the first sign of stress he'd go back to old habits. He's in an extraordinary position of stress right now, and he's also had this job disappointment that he's found humiliating. My first response was to try to comfort and show him some compassion, and his first response was to start trying to bait me into the old dynamic. I can resist that, and I will - but I don't think he has any self awareness on this issue at all right now and has no idea the damage he is doing to our marriage - shaky as it was. So no, I don't know if I want to be married to him. If he can come to me and take some responsibility and tell me what is going on without attacking me then I'd have hope - people are allowed to be stressed and anxious and act like Dingles now and again. But this - this I cannot tolerate.

In terms of next steps? Putting as much distance between me and him as possible to keep myself safe. We're still in lockdown and if I asked him to leave it would inflame him and I am frightened of that.

Hi A, hope you are doing OK and that things have lightened in your situation, somehow. Thinking of you. Be safe.

Thank you Sage.

I am okay. Things continue to be quite difficult at home but I am taking my space and looking after myself. H seems in a slightly better temper after his time off shift, and perhaps a lot of time on his own was needed (I certainly wasn't seeking out his company). I know he isn't responsible for soothing my feelings of stress and anxiety and while he might have fears or opinions about what happens when I withdraw to do that for myself - just as I do when he does it - that's his problem.

I guess I have been trying to be curious about that fear of mine. H wasn't abusive towards me - he was grumpy and tried to pick some silly fights and he had clearly no self awareness about it and wasn't able to ask directly for what he needed. None of that is on a scale with the type of behaviour I've been subject to in the past. But my reaction - fear and near paralysis - followed by, I have to be honest, a fair bit of contempt, is what I want to look at now.

I think H has a 'truth' about how things are between us - that he'd solid, steady, long suffering, selfless and when things are difficult or stressful for him, he's sometimes not at his best. And that he's saddled with a hysterical, demanding wife who can't seem to cope with basic things, and now and again he gets totally understandably overwhelmed by her needs and lashes out in ways that should be understood and forgiven. He likes a bit of a banter and he gets annoyed by the fact that sometimes this sensitive wife of his cannot take a joke.

My truth is that I'm creative, passionate, interested and empathic and I do much of the emotional lifting in parenting and our relationships. I initiate the time we spend together, the sex we have and the conversations we have. And when I don't, these things don't happen. When I am stressed or upset, I generally receive criticism and blame and when he is stressed, he generally also blames me. Sometimes in his anger he can be extremely cruel in ways that have been in the past absolutely abusive and still sometimes border on it. When he loses control of himself, it is always my fault, or the kids' fault. He doesn't like to apologise as it makes him feel 'one down' when really his truth is that he's 'one up'. His sense of humour is usually on one theme - that I'm useless at something and he needs to be the one to sort it out. He will find that endearing until he finds it annoying. But it actually isn't true: I'm extremely competent at things he's less sure of and that probably intimidates him.

What I notice is that when we have any kind of conflict, however minor, I hear him out. I didn't used to. I get really upset and then it was all about soothing my emotions. But that doesn't happen now. What happens is I give him space and so long as he is being respectful, I validate how he feels and thinks about the world. Even if I don't agree. I also notice that it is rare I get any of that back. Generally when I try to say how things are for me, his response is to tell me what I am doing wrong, where I am falling short. I have explained that I don't need a solution, I need care and empathy, but he doesn't really have skills in that area. I see glimmers of it - more than I did in the past - but I looks like it costs him great effort and isn't something that comes from his heart. I suspect we're at the stage of piecing where I need to speak my own truth a bit more.

We had a bit of a show down this morning. Not shouting, not abusive, but it wasn't particularly pleasant either. He made another one of his little comments about my uselessness as a parent and I challenged him on it, which for the sake of peace I don't usually do.

I said I was really tired of the 'theme' of our relationship being him as the weary long suffering victim, and me as this hysterical liability. I said for me, the truth was something different, and I wanted him to hear it even if he didn't agree. He agreed to listen. I said that my truth was that for a long time, he'd acted in abusive and bullying ways towards me, had been dishonest and manipulative, had evaded many opportunities to get insight into that behaviour and instead preferred to blame others for it. I said the kids needed my talent at humour and empathy and connection, that was a hugely valuable part of the jigsaw of what we as their parents could offer them, and that his one-up-man-ship and point-scoring and examining of every relationship in terms of its transactional value had lost him the trust of his son and I wasn't going to take responsibility for that. I said that it was my belief he'd cancelled the session of therapy with his therapist I'd been invited to because he didn't want me to meet her, he didn't want there to be a chance for my truth to be present in that room. I said that quite a lot of the time I swallowed what I wanted to say as I was still afraid of being punished by withdrawal and silent treatment or verbal abuse and bullying and I didn't want to live in fear any more, so I would be saying what I wanted a lot more, and if he did punish me, I wouldn't be staying in the relationship.

At this point, he interrupted me and said he didn't want to hear it. I said no, I know you don't want to hear it. And you don't have to like it or agree with it, but I want to say it so I am going to say it, and you can either be there and respectfully listen, or you can leave. But I don't want to be in a relationship where my truth and my experiences aren't allowed to be expressed. And I don't want to be in a relationship where when I say something you don't like, the response is some kind of emotional punishment.

I left it there - came away to work. Now he's sitting, as usual, with his headphones on playing computer games which is exactly what I expected. It might be he is just processing and I will keep an open mind about that, but I suspect I'm in for another few days of sulking and fight-picking and my tolerance for it is just about gone.

Hi Alison,

It sounds like you're in such a rough place. I've been thinking a lot about you, especially because my H has some tendencies similar to yours, though not as extreme. Mine also has this automatic blame response where whenever anything goes wrong, blame goes to the nearest person-- usually me-- though I will say this has been much improved over the past year.

I have also noticed that your H has improved in some of these areas quite a bit, like that weird mocking behavior is pretty much gone now, right? Also, I think it is really wonderful that you've been able to adjust your own responses (it has been an inspiration for me), like hearing him out when he's upset rather than making it about you and your emotional response to his behaviors (a pattern I also fell into quite a bit).

However... eventually, and I suspect this is where you are, you can make all the changes you want, and he will either be able to respond in kind, or not-- and then you do have a decision to make. I guess I just wonder if MC is an option for you two. It doesn't seem like he will be able to move past where he is right now without some level of professional help. He also has to truly desire change, and it sounds to me like you aren't sure he's able to pull out of whatever space he is in right now to truly care about how his actions are affecting you (and also your eldest) and commit to doing his part to changing these dynamics.

I do agree it is time for you to speak your truth and I was actually cheering when I read what you told him, especially the part about knowing he didn't want to hear it but was going to have to anyway. I'm hoping you can continue to take care of yourself as your first priority.

Thinking of you.

I'm glad you're taking care of yourself Alison. Trying to work out how to be compassionate for your H and how much slack to cut him due to stressful job stuff is difficult when these impinge on you getting your needs met. It certainly was always an issue in my marriage, and I allowed far too much terrible behaviour by excusing my H all the time. He's tired, he's stressed about X or Y, he needs a holiday, etc. They might have been true but it was always something. As a good friend said 'it's always been all about him'. And my H is a terrible blamer too, which meant he was never asking for his needs to be met either, not a healthy place.

I agree that MC could be useful, there's only so much you can do by working on yourself and asking for your needs to be met. Things don't sound very positive right now

I agree MC would be a good idea. I don't think even in the best of times our communication is up to much. Last summer we went for one or two sessions together, and the MC said she didn't think H was ready, and saw him on his own for a few months. There was a bit of to-ing and fro-ing about when I'd come back in - he wanted me to, and I wanted to wait a while, and then when I finally agreed to it and scheduled a session, I was sick and couldn't make it, then a few days before the rescheduled session he abruptly cancelled it and told her he wouldn't be going back - by text. He told her it was because I wasn't comfortable. Which at the time I challenged him on as being a self-serving lie. It did take me a while to make up my mind to do it and be ready, but once I'd agreed to it, I never once said anything other than I was committed to going and hoped it would be good for us. I think he didn't want me in the same room as her - either he'd told her something he was worried about me knowing, or he was worried about me telling her something he didn't want her knowing. It could be something very significant, or something trivial. Years ago, when we first met, he actually told his mother I didn't like her and didn't want any contact with her (totally, totally untrue) because he was uncomfortable that she and I seemed to be getting on okay. I dealt with that really quickly at the time and telephoned her and said it was rubbish, and I'd no idea why he said that, and it was all brushed under the carpet (though I suspect during or at the end of our separation he's said something similar to his family as there's no contact at all from them towards me these days, and there used to me). I actually brought this - the nonsense he told the MC before ending therapy with her - up again when I gave him his Home Truths the other day, and said his failure to seek help or sabotage the help we did get wasn't anything to do with me feeling comfortable or not and he'd lied to his counsellor about that. I still see my IC - by electronic means these days.

I am weary, to be honest. He's been perfectly polite with me today - and some of this is lockdown blues, and our jobs being stressful, and these strange circumstances we're in. I can't fault the practical support he is giving me and I know that is his way of communicating love and commitment. But I certainly don't feel respect or any emotional intimacy from him. He has improved a lot on some things, yes, but his fundamental character is who he is and it isn't fair to want to change that. And it's very hard to want closeness with him. His life and interests seem quite narrow from my perspective and it is hard to find anything I want to do with him (he likes to spend his evenings playing computer games, doesn't have any friends and doesn't have any interest in getting to know my friends). My GAL sustains me a lot and that was a really good thing for me personally, and I means I both have more to bring to the marriage and general conversation, have a better perspective on what is okay by me or not and what kinds of things other than my marriage make me happy. But the marriage itself... well, it is disappointing and this is not where I hoped we'd be when I look back on where we were last year. I know these things take a lot of time and a lot of work, but I am tired of the work.

I can understand being tired, and also disappointed. Gosh relationships are hard work aren't they? Your H does not sound like a barrel of joy

I suppose it's a matter of working out whether what he does give you is enough, knowing that no marriage is perfect and compromises always need to be made. The lack of emotional intimacy is bad though, you can overlook all manner of other stuff if you can both be honest with each other and receive honesty back. He doesn't seem prepared to put in the effort for that though, would anything motivate him to do that do you think?

Yes, I think the lack of emotional intimacy is at the root of it - and some of that is on my shoulders as I have been hiding what I really think about him and us and our situation - partly because of my fear of his reaction. I can't blame him for that as if my telling the truth prompts punishment or abuse from him, I am much more capable than I was of putting a stop to it and I do know that for sure.

I don't know what would motivate him. He's a classic distancer and I suspect it would be years of no-contact and utter isolation that would get him wondering about what it was he was doing (rather than other people) to create those circumstances in his life. I'm not willing to do that as a manipulation tactic - I'd rather end the marriage and live alone than have to Go Dark in an In House Separation to get him to feel the loss of me. I'm so tired I'm just totally unwilling to do anything to extract any kind of affection or compliance or anything at all from him.

I think self-care has to be it right now.

He is being very warm and reasonable with me today, and I have to bear in mind how utterly awful his job is right now - and how tired and stressed he is. And he's an introvert - which isn't the same as being a distancer - and I know when he gets home from a 12 hour shift he's so depleted he just can't bear any emotional 'demand' at all. It's a shame his needs in a marriage run absolutely the opposite to my needs, and my way of getting my needs met involves GAL and not turning to my H. We may just, in the end, be incompatible, or it might be that in easier circumstances and my having more contact with people who actually like being around me, is enough to shore things up for a while.

Emotional intimacy is hard, even harder when you have been hurt. There's no hurry is there, you can wait until his job stuff is easier and see if things can improve. It does take 2 to work on a marriage after all. Keep up the GAL and the self care xx

So what kind of self-care things are you planning?

Yes! I echo May! Hijacking your thread to share what I am going to do over the next few weeks (going to hold you accountable, girlfriend, so chime in with yours):

*I want to know the history, story and every little detail of at least ONE historical painting. An art historian of one piece of art, if you will. I think I know the piece I want to study, but I might need more time.

*Create or find a new music playlist that moves me. Expand my current playlists.

*Meditate at least 3 times a week, if even for 5 minutes.

*Stay in my heart when my mind wants to revert to 'fight or flight' at least once a day (here's looking at you, unruly homeschool-hating children of mine)

*I want to take an online class with The School of Life (in London, check them out if you haven't already. Alain de Botton is my current philosophical crush)

*Spend less time on my phone and more time being present in the real world

*Go for a hike in the mountains twice a month

*Greet my children as if they are the most important thing in my world at that moment when they come inside with something to tell me (FFS, the damn dishes can wait)

*Read a book a week, nothing R related

*Watch a documentary a week, on some topic that I don't know anything about

*Finish putting art and family photos up on my walls (we did a reno and our M crisis started when we moved back in so I haven't had the energy to decorate)

Sage this is SUCH a good list. I love it.

My list:

By the end of the month I will:

Get out to the beach with the dog and my kids - rain or shine. Preferably more than once.

Get back to my meditation class, which is holding sessions on zoom and which I was going to three times a week before the last fortnight or so, when I dropped off with it.

Get that list on my phone of films I feel like watching and treat myself to a few of them to watch in the evenings.

Do some baking.

Some pampering time - long bath with a comforting book, hot tea, all the nice bath oils I have been saving for best.

Pretty intense conversation with IC today. I was talking around the fact that I feel like I can't say what I want to say in my marriage as the outcome is so negative - either silence or conflict - and she asked me to try it out on her - what I wanted to say, what it was I was holding back. It was useful, though I shed lots of tears, and basically amounted to 'this isn't enough for me.'

I'll pick it up next week with her - trying to figure out exactly what would be 'enough' and whether that is a reasonable thing to expect from a partner or something I should be providing to myself, but I know I've had this sort of conversation with her before, and shied away from it. I suspect that it feels easier for me to blame myself, and to think that if only I addressed my childhood issues with more vigour, or gave myself more love and attention through self-care, or reached out to my friends more, then a cold marriage based on practicalities would feel more satisfying, and this gnawing longing I feel for an actual intimate partner would be easier to live with.

I don't think I am going to be able to talk or heal or self care myself out of wanting something that my H is not able or willing to provide. And that's no fault in him - there's I lot I don't like about him, but fundamentally I think I could be happy with an ordinary flawed man who could be honest and open and who wanted my honesty and openness. Equally, I feel sure I could be happy on my own.

What I am struggling with is how much effort it takes to make sure that my longing doesn't show, my frustration about the situation doesn't spill into my speech, and that I go along with the story that H is spinning - that's he's fine, the marriage is fine, and I'm just too needy / damaged / emotional / reliant. I don't really believe that - and I equally don't believe he has any obligation to be or give anything that isn't okay for him.

I know when I go away and have conversations with my friends, do what-ever is passing for GAL in this lockdown, spend happy times with my kids, I just light up. I laugh easily and can give and receive affection and honesty from other people. And when I am in the house with my H, that light goes out. It's just stifling, and disappointing. I don't know how it is for him - I don't see his light anymore and I haven't done for a very long time - if it is in there somewhere, he doesn't show it to me.

Perhaps MC would help, but he's unwilling, and I am weary with dragging him to places he doesn't want to be to have conversations he doesn't want to have. I am starting to think about the world outside my marriage - after lockdown, but now too - where there will be people in my life who are curious about me, and want me to be curious about them. Where I can have that experience of being wanted, and wanting someone who feels my wanting as a compliment and not an irritating demand.

I didn't really expect to go there with the IC today - I feel pretty drained and sad but also that I have a lot of clarity. I am worried I won't have the guts to take action on this. Not that there's a massive amount I can do now though. I will go up to the bedroom and watch a film or read or talk to some friends online, and he will sit downstairs drinking and playing computer games with his headphones on, and he'll either come up after I've gone to sleep, or come up while I'm still awake and try to pick some kind of fight to protect himself against my wanting anything emotional or physical from him. It's like groundhog day - not my life in general - but certainly my marriage. And while a lot of the bad behaviour from him has gone, there's really not that much else left going on between us.

That's tough, Alison, really tough. I do identify with the feeling dragged down instead of lighting up with your H, my H is an emotional black hole when I'm with him, and I also have not seen his light in so long I've forgotten if it ever shone.
I have no advice, just offering some compassion to you. It's hard, trying to work out if all of this is worth it! I'm glad you're making progress with your IC though, that's positive xx

Hey Alison,

D@mn, that was hard reading.

I can't say I know what it feels like to go through piecing, but I know what it feels like when you're with in a room with someone and the air feels so thick its stifling. That is exactly what it feels like with my H. I go from chatty smiley FS to emotionless robot in a blink of an eye. I am sure he feels the same. There is simply no energy in the room.

That lack of energy is because your both holding so much in. Fear of rejection, fear of saying the wrong things, fear of accusations, fear of revealing too much. It is easy to talk to strangers - everything is new and interesting. But when you've known someone for a long time, and one or the other feels betrayal (and I would go so far as to say that, rightly or wrongly, you both feel betrayed by the other) then it gets tough. Even talking about the weather becomes nuanced.

I don't know what the answer is and like Dilly I can only offer compassion and virtual hugs.

Do you feel that his attempt at reconciliation is genuine, or is it driven by other reasons (fear of being alone, impact on the children, financial considerations)?

Do you feel your attempt at reconciliation is genuine, or is it driven by other reasons (fear of being alone, impact on the children, financial considerations)?

Listen to your inner voice (even if that voice needs some help being heard via your IC) - your inner voice knows much more than you think it knows.

Hugs

Oh, Alison. I am sorry you are in this holding pattern.

However, you are so brave to go where you did with the therapist. That's some tough work and it is to be expected that you feel drained and exhausted. As hard as it is to not focus on your M, the real work that is happening right now is on you. And that thread of clarity is a gift. A well-deserved one that has taken weeks/months/years to obtain. Now that you have that thread of clarity, it's OK to just sit with it. Examine it from different angles. Feel it when you are in different moods (tired, happy, sad, angry, right after meditation or exercise) and just really get to know it. You have all the time you need to act on it. Right now this clarity is only yours, private and safe. Keep it that way until you are ready to do something with it. Or until you gain back the strength you need to take action.

Regarding the negative energy in the house with your H, a dear friend of mine who is an extreme empath and very affected by other people's energy creates a mental bubble around her body (in her mind, it is clear-ish pink) and only love and kindness is allowed into that bubble. Everything else cannot penetrate. Meditation can create some of these shields too. Were you able to do a Zoom meditation class this week?

How has the past few days been for you?

(((Alison)))

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Piecing Myself and Not My Marriage