Help with WW #2

[OS2]

Old thread: here

OK, I *think* we've reached a new stage. W promises she has removed OM from her life and hasn’t talked to him for a few weeks now. She says she separated from me for a different reason though - unhappiness. And she maintains the A was a mistake that was over before I found out and was going to stay swept under the rug when she was ready to try again. She says she is trying to feel happy and ‘get the spark back’. She’s still quite defensive and feels bad about being monitored/checked up on and we haven’t got to the stage of formal R requirements yet. She turned on a phone tracker after the A came out but I’ve removed that as it wasn’t helpful and I think she saw it as me being needy and obsessed with tracking her (wasn’t the case). After turning it off she said I instantly became more desirable. It was perhaps too soon for sharing to that level without any/enough healing. She said she would look at MC but hasn't materialised yet.

We’ve been having more communication and she’s been checking in with me with what she’s doing/where she is etc, I think in an attempt to build trust but also get our communication back. She would be messaging OM all the time so I feel like she could be plugging that hole with me to some extent (as well as other friends). She’s stayed over a few nights but says she is finding all the emotion overwhelming and she’s wondering whether we can ‘get the spark back’. I think she will want to stay over every couple of nights for a while, like when we were dating. I’ve detached and am giving her space to sort her feelings out. I also feel I’m being too available and being unavailable breeds desire right? She says she wants us to feel ‘together’ more than anything. I think I need to detach more.

I know that I know nothing, and she could have taken OM underground which is keeping her stressed, highly strung and emotional; which would explain everything. On the other hand she could be just going through guilt, withdrawal, coming to terms with everything from the last month and putting pressure on herself to make our M work which would also explain everything. I think right now I need to continue GAL, being attractive and apply no pressure. Right now she can come and go as she pleases, which I have let happen because I think it’s better for her to be at home. Part of me thinks it’s a waiting game, I think I need to exercise the idea someone said on the prev thread - keep the driveway clear but don’t go down to the bottom of the drive and pick her up.

[IHCLACS]

Check out the term. Dual mating strategy.

[OS2]

Interesting, thanks IHCLACS.

Asked W to see her messages and prove she isn’t still in contact with OM. She said she didn’t like the precedent it set and said she could just delete messages so wouldn’t prove anything anyway. Also said I’d probably figure it out anyway if something was still going on. W said I would keep asking too and she doesn’t want to share her private messages to/from her friends with me. W maintains she isn’t talking to OM. W says she is trying to get things back on track but that I should trust her. Had a long conv about it where she broke down in tears and repeatedly said how sorry she was for what she did and wished she hadn’t. Said she continues to feel so bad and has suffered with her decisions and she doesn’t want to make life anymore miserable for herself.

Don’t know what the next steps are because she seems quite firm about it. I could blindly trust or stick to my guns and make it a condition of any further R. Can’t help but feel if I did that (and she was still in contact) she could just clean up her IM for a bit and there’d be no evidence anyway. Want to trust but haven’t got much to go on.

Keep reminding myself that I know nothing for sure. My hunch is that the PA is over but EA maybe not, although she says otherwise.

[LH19]

O,

This is all textbook walkway BS we tried to tell you about that is very predictable. Next step is going to be her telling you she tried and can't get the spark back. Truly remorseful WWs will offer up all passwords and do whatever it takes to make the relationship work.

Whatever you do make sure she doesn't move home until she meets your conditions.

[IHCLACS]

I'm a big fan of actions over words. I've had a year to think about this. Nobody wants a slave, and wish people would stay on their own volition and be willing to work torwards earn your trust back rather then rebel against it. I have yet to be put in a situation like that.

If I was put in a reconciliation scenario here is my list of requirements, and here is the behaviors torwards R I would look for.

Requirements: Joint counciling weekly to work torwards healing from infidelity. W would have to initiate such voluntarily at H request. Complete and total access to all computers, phones, passwords, messages, emails, to all accounts on demand. (Do your diligence to make sure none are hidden.) Whereabouts at all times. Total control and access over all financial situations, spending, and statements. Access to all journaling and privacy related things. Access to all medical records and all Dr related appointments. (Think birth control on the sneak.) Definately want a panel of STD tests done on her too. Aware of all gym memberships, rec activities, work collegues, hobbies, errands, appointments, shopping, group meetings, friends, etc.

Behaviors to watch for. Is she getting closer and more affectionate, or pulling away and distant. Does she open herself and communicate and make herself more vulnerable? Or does she harbor resentment? Is quiet, removed, distracted or preoccupied? Does she willingly go out of her way to please you, volunteer her time, her effort, and her sincerity with resolve and commitment? Or does she look for more avenues of escape away from M and a different life? Here is an important one. Agency, culpability, and accountability. Does she admit her wrong doings with sincerity, or does she blame shift them onto you about why she feels a certain way? People do change, but watch for changes in dress, music tastes, hobbies, makeup, intimate apparel, shopping habits, and who it is for.

Sounds very controlling abusive and demanding doesn't it? Let me ask you this question? Who cheated? Who betrayed your trust and the trust of the M? How hard are they willing to work, how many hoops are they willing to jump through to earn back your trust? How much effort and work are they willing to provide? How much action are they willing to take to earn back your love trust and respect when they were the ones that stepped out? Here is the best part. How much are you willing to respect yourself to enforce these boundaries, and compliance of conditions. Add or modify them as you like to suit your needs. There is no one size fits all. But bottom line. You are the prize, and trust is earned not given and actions speak louder than words.

[Jac12]

OS2-

I agree with LH19...it appears as though she's hiding things from you and is trying to make you feel bad for wanting to see her text messages. IF she was truly remorseful and wanted to R, she'd be doing what it takes to EARN your trust back.

You need to detach and focus on yourself. Remember the pursuit/distance relationship...it's your time to distance yourself and let her pursue you. She needs to show you with her ACTIONS and be CONSISTENT over TIME.

[hoosjim]

If she's not agreeable to transparency then she is not ready to reconcile... at least not all the way. My own WW made baby steps towards reconciling and we had a couple of false starts but things didn't really get rolling in earnest until she completely broke down, begged for forgiveness, and offered up all of her passwords, phone, etc.

Why would a spouse in a committed M have any reason to keep passwords and social media website access and the like from their spouse... or hide their phone?! No one should want or expect that kind of "privacy"... from their SPOUSE! Anyway, when a WW says this, she's not talking about privacy, she's talking about secrecy... which are two completely different things. She doesn't want privacy... what is she afraid of or what does she need protecting from that would require "privacy"?... What she wants is secrecy so she can carry on carrying on with OM behind her spouse's back without him knowing.

You'll know when she's ready... sounds like she's not.

[OS2]

Just wanted to check in although not a lot has changed really. W has stayed over a few times and communication still good (and relationship getting better) but physical side hasn't really improved very far. Still suspect there is ongoing contact with OM that hasn't properly broken off yet although she says it has. W maintains it was all over a long time ago now but if I found out the PA is still active I think I'd have to call it a day as hard as that would be. W still has him on some social media although says communication has stopped. It's just not good enough. Feel a bit in stalemate really but so worn out from everything. I think I need to be stronger and reset some boundaries. W says she is scared of coming home and going back to our previous M incase it doesn't work out.

I think she's scared of getting back and truly getting rid of OM though I don't want to admit that. I worry she's taken OM underground now. Considering all the conversation etc we've had I don't know what I'd do if I found out she's still in contact. Feel I need closure either way. Lots of positive progress regarding our general relationship, but the important part to me is still a big fat no change. W has put up a barrier and said that she doesn't feel right about sharing messages etc as she thinks that's not a healthy restart to the relationship. I think I'm going to have to set it out as an expectation. A small part of me wants to snoop and find out for myself so she isn't in a position to hide or clean it but I know that's probably not healthy. Should I just turn round and give her an ultimatum/set of expectations before she can come home? Should I just demand full access?

[OS2]

Should also add that W says she is so broken about what has happened and is struggling to get by day to day. She’s turned herself into a victim and says while she’s to blame (and has broken down crying a few times now saying how awful she's been, saying she couldn't possibly do this again, saying how much she regrets everything) she is considering antidepressants and says she just feels awful every day. To me I fear that it is because the OM is still on the scene and she’s playing both now. My honest guess is she still has EA but not PA. The optimist in me would like to believe that she just wants to refind the relationship and needs me to be a better partner but if that’s all true it wouldn’t explain why she won’t be entirely transparent.

[SteveLW]

OS2, my guess? OM is moving on from her. I've seen this twice with both of my W's EAs. They are addicts. They go through withdrawals. While it hurts to see your W broken up over another man, it is an important step in the process.

This would also explain why she isn't ready to give full transparency. She is hoping he'll come back.

[OS2]

Steve85. Thanks for that, outside perspective is so important I didn’t think of that. If that’s the case what should I do?

[hoosjim]

Just wanted to check in although not a lot has changed really. W has stayed over a few times and communication still good (and relationship getting better) but physical side hasn't really improved very far. Still suspect there is ongoing contact with OM that hasn't properly broken off yet although she says it has. W maintains it was all over a long time ago now but if I found out the PA is still active I think I'd have to call it a day as hard as that would be. W still has him on some social media although says communication has stopped. It's just not good enough. Feel a bit in stalemate really but so worn out from everything. I think I need to be stronger and reset some boundaries. W says she is scared of coming home and going back to our previous M incase it doesn't work out.

I think she's scared of getting back and truly getting rid of OM though I don't want to admit that. I worry she's taken OM underground now. Considering all the conversation etc we've had I don't know what I'd do if I found out she's still in contact. Feel I need closure either way. Lots of positive progress regarding our general relationship, but the important part to me is still a big fat no change. W has put up a barrier and said that she doesn't feel right about sharing messages etc as she thinks that's not a healthy restart to the relationship. I think I'm going to have to set it out as an expectation. A small part of me wants to snoop and find out for myself so she isn't in a position to hide or clean it but I know that's probably not healthy. Should I just turn round and give her an ultimatum/set of expectations before she can come home? Should I just demand full access?

OS2, this sounds so much like my own sitch that I can't even tell you. WW who was in an EA and possibly a PA (I may never know) but still had reservations about ending our MR... felt some tugs of guilt and hesitation. Would make baby steps back towards me and then pull back. (Some of this is certainly temp-checking to see if we are still on the hook). We were living in the same house but she was going out and staying out late with GFs from time to time, and we were not always sleeping together. Sometimes she would come in and sleep in MBR with me, and other times she'd sleep in guest room. Sometimes she'd even touch me or come over close to me at night, but nothing more. It is a very difficult/delicate situation to be in... Just from the way you describe it I feel like your W is a bit like my W... heart not hardened all the way through, some of her steps back towards you are perhaps hopeful and not strictly motivated by cake eating or temp-checking. I don't want to get your hopes up here, because one thing you definitely do NOT want to do is turn on the pressure by trying to force things with her (Saying "ILY", actively pursuing her for dates, etc) but, rather, watch, wait, and continue to GAL, 180, and validate towards her where appropriate.

If she shows enough interest and seems genuine (look over Sandi2's threads and posts for the signs to look for that a WW is truly ready to "turn"-- typically when she shows true remorse, complete surrender to transparency measures, willing to do "whatever it takes" to save MR), the next step for y'all, and particularly for her, is likely individual counselling to work through some of her own issues and help her get over the affair. This can sometimes be handled, in appropriate cases, by having IC be a precondition to working on the MR when she voices a willingness. Again, you will know when she is ready for this kind of step but right now i don't think she is... i think she is just mourning the OM and the affair.. my W went through this stage. It can take a while. She needs to miss the MR and to miss you before she is truly remorseful and ready... and the best way you can contribute to that happening is by GAL-ing like a madman, detach, and stop obsessing so much about her.

[SteveLW]

Steve85. Thanks for that, outside perspective is so important I didn’t think of that. If that’s the case what should I do?

Hoos nailed it. Just keep DBing.

[OS2]

Thanks both, really appreciated. I think W is in quite a bad place now. She's struggling to be motivated in her life and I think it could be grieving the A mixed with the guilt/shame or possibly one more than the other. It's a waiting game.

[OS2]

If the EA is still continuing she is cake eating currently coming over for security/friendship and similar to dual mating as referenced above. She is contemplating moving back in. I told her tonight that a condition of that is total openness of phone and messages. Should I tell her she shouldn't come round for the odd night until she agrees to the terms too? The stalemate is difficult currently and I have no idea whether I'm enabling her playing both sides for the time being. I do feel I've been too nice at times.

[hoosjim]

The marital home and particularly the marital bed is for the married couple. If she is in an affair or even in contact with someone with whom she had been having an affair, then she is not interested in being in the marriage. You cannot have a "marriage" of three people.

How do you approach that issue when she "wants to come back?" Well, you can't control her, you can only control YOU. So, you set boundaries to protect YOU (and your children if they are minors). Have you set a boundary with her that you won't share your W or live in an "open marriage"? If not, why not? If so, what would the consequences be if she violated that boundary? Other boundaries can be "I will not accept verbal abuse" (If that has been an issue) or "I will not lie to my children to protect your affair" or the like. Boundaries really need to be tailored to protect your own particular/personal value system. I was not awesome at defining and enforcing boundaries, though i think I ended up doing an adequate job in the end. There are alot of threads on these boards about boundaries, some stickied, i think, and you can google the concept as well. It is not unique to DB-ing.

[OS2]

Bit of an update. W says she loves me, is attracted to me and wants to be with me but is struggling with emotional attachment/intimacy. I said I thought that would come back in time but she has to comply with my requests before she comes back. (Far better at boundaries thank you). I said I don’t think she has to be totally healed/fixed emotionally but she does need to show total commitment of what she wants long term and that the M will take work but can’t really start until she commits. I think EA is slightly less likely now but still don’t know. W said she’d be devastated without me in her life which makes me think it’ll work out. W said she wants time and will be totally committed if she comes back. Part of me wonders whether she’s running the clock on the EA, although I think some of this was an issue before the A as the M deteriorated from her perspective last year.

More detachment etc. I couldn’t find sandi2’s signs of turn but that would be useful. Will look again.

[LH19]

O,

So to simplify things for you take out her words because they mean absolutely nothing. In her actions is she showing you anything to make you believe she wants to reconcile with you?

[IHCLACS]

24/7 access to her phone, computers, passwords, journals on demand. No GGW or girls night out. Counciling that she initiates. Total financial control. STD panel test. Did I forget anything? People will move heaven and earth to want to be with someone who is a catch and is morally backbones and financially sound. Yes action speaks louder than words. She monkey branched, and lost the branch in the fantasy.

[AnotherStander]

So to simplify things for you take out her words because they mean absolutely nothing. In her actions is she showing you anything to make you believe she wants to reconcile with you?

^^^THIS^^^ It is not at all unusual for a WAS to suddenly express interest in recon and even cry/ beg/ plead only to revert right back to being a full-blown WAS shortly after. Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does. That still applies.

24/7 access to her phone, computers, passwords, journals on demand. No GGW or girls night out. Counciling that she initiates. Total financial control. STD panel test. Did I forget anything? People will move heaven and earth to want to be with someone who is a catch and is morally backbones and financially sound. Yes action speaks louder than words. She monkey branched, and lost the branch in the fantasy.

^^^This too^^^

[SteveLW]

O,

So to simplify things for you take out her words because they mean absolutely nothing. In her actions is she showing you anything to make you believe she wants to reconcile with you?

I was formulating a similar response in my mind as I was reading OS's latest update.

OS, "she said"......you typed those words about a dozen times in that last post. Every time you type those words it should trigger in your own head: "Oh, believe NOTHING she says."

My W would say similar things. Why? Because she wasn't ready to see her Plan B go away. Especially when Plan A was so flimsy. Likely she is buying more time. The reason may be the EA. It may be because she isn't ready to do what it takes to take the next step in S and D. Or it could be because, likely, she doesn't even know what she wants herself.

When you hang on your WAS's every word, you will get burned.

[OS2]

You're all right. As we've begun to talk more and more I've got dragged in. I'm still suspicious of OM actually. I'm thinking of telling W I want to end all conversation/meetings with W until she wants to reconcile. Is that a good idea? She's continually asking for meetings now, dinners etc wanting to spend time with me. I do think she is trying to work things out in her head but she can't possibly do that if OM is still involved at all, and I feel I'm being too available. Or should I just detach and GAL like a mad man and remove any attention I'm paying her? I'm worried she is cake eating, I think she is. If it's become PA again I'm not sure I'll be able to take that, I might have to look at D.

[LovingIt]

Just coming back to the message board, and catching up on your thread...

You need to figure out OM:

- If OM is still involved, then absolutely no contact - no cake eating allowed.

- If OM is not involved, then be available sometimes but not all the time... when you do hang out, listen and validate. Keep GAL, use the time to learn and gain yourself confidence back.

[IHCLACS]

I'm thinking of telling W I want to end all conversation/meetings with W until she wants to reconcile. Is that a good idea? She's continually asking for meetings now, dinners etc wanting to spend time with me. I do think she is trying to work things out in her head but she can't possibly do that if OM is still involved at all, and I feel I'm being too available. Or should I just detach and GAL like a mad man and remove any attention I'm paying her?

Why tell her you want to end all conversation? Show her! Go Ghost mode. Don't even leave her the option of reconciliation. The only thing to do when the person across from you is holding all the aces at the table is KICK THE TABLE OVER. It sounds like you answered your own question. Again Im no expert here, and would allow the vets their opinions and wisdom as well, but I've personally just hit the "f$ck it" button several times over in my life, and have developed a few different mindsets around these situations, push pull interdynamics and power, dating, marriage, and relationships. Attention is currency to them. Its what drives them and their emotions. If they weren't getting attention from you, they are getting it from somewhere else. Could be friends, family, OM, whatever....

When Plan A fails. You can obviously see what happens. All of a siddem they want to weasel their way back in. Asking for dates, meetings, dinners, wanting to spend time with you JUST ALL OF A SUDDEN OUT OF THE BLUE WHEN THEY ARE THE ONES THAT BROKE THE COMMITMENT IN THE FIRST PLACE! This part should be underlined....BROKE THE COMMITMENT IN THE MOMENT... Due to a series of events that lead up to the fallout. You see? Again this is my opinion of how the sexes differ in their thinking. (Ok yes I am generalizing again.) But its worth noting from my own personal observation. We look back and see the good times. The memories. The building of the relationship. The equity. The moments. The investment. In a very idealisticly sense. But for some of us, our blind spots are what we contributed to the downfall of it. Yes I know we beat ourselves and each other over the head, and try to 180 these bad behaviors. Sometimes it has an effect on the other person, and sometimes it doesn't be cause the other person is so far done and gone that in their mind and story, we will never change, and the fact that it took them to leave us to change, could lead their narrative to make them think how little we valued them in the first place. Its cognitive dissonance.

Now... On the other side of things. They are in the right now...They are operating in real time with their emotions and story. If they want it to change, they will change it. Opportunisticly. Want to change either their circumstances, their life or lifestyle, their lover, or their spouse. Its almost a "What have you done for me lately." mindset due to relationship apathy, complacency, etc. They live in the now, and reflect on the future a lot, and because they are "just not feeling it anymore." For right now. That future looks bleak to them, so it's better for them to start over, try again, see what's out there, get attracted, be guided by their feelings, etc....Anything new experience or otherwise feels better than the pain, resentment, disappointment, etc. This is where accountability and agency go completely out the window with regard to past history, sentimentality, and reverence to it and for it. So they go looking for the BBD (Bigger Better Deal.) Then when it doesn't work out? Plan A fails. Suddenly they want to try again? But they still haven't taken accountability for their own actions, their own behavior, etc. But want to work on things.

Do you really think if you made yourself available that you will be respected? I don't think so. It just sends signals that you can be wrapped around someone's finger. Nevermind love. Put that aside for now. You need to be respected first and foremost. The best revenge is living your best life with or without them. Growing. GALing. Etc. Coming back around to what I said earlier about commitment. Is breaking a commitment respectful? Of your time. Your feelings. Your family. Your life. Your boundaries and your consideration? IMO. Dates, meetings, dinners, etc are all good starting points for open communication and dialog. But it just doesn't sound as if she's at rock bottom. I've been thinking a lot about all my past relationships from start to finish as of lately... I've realized people will make themselves available on somewhat of a whim when they are into you, and will move heaven and earth when they are. Feelings.... Ahhh.. :-) When they are not. They will ghost you, flake on you, give you half hearted commitments of ambiguity. Love bomb you, then go quiet and disappear. Push/pull etc... Play manipulation games. Play the field on both sides of the fence. You know? Cake eating....If someone has 5 or 6 suitors chasing them? What do you think that does to their ego? It inflates it... No? So what happens when they lose all 6 interests? OPTION F....lol..and guess who that is to them right now? YOU ARE ALWAYS OPTION A.
If you are not. You will know it by their actions and not their words which is just lip service and mistrust at this point. Let me ask you this question? Do you want someone chasing you that is like..."Ahhh you re kind of nice for right now... But I don't know what I want...There's so many options... So lets go on a few dinners and see if there is still a connection." See the potential of losing respect again here? You re a backup plan. Don't be a backup plan please. I know some people still need to "feel the waters" to see if there is still connections, and that takes time, re building of trust, and demonstration taking things slow... But at the very least. This is your life partner, (Or former life partner we are taking about here.) At the very least, you want a solid commitment by actions, not half hearted gestures to actually put in the work on the M and take complete and total accountability for all past behaviors, trust breaches, etc...ON YOUR TERMS! You are reluctant to even give them another shot unless they went above and beyond and begged their way back into your life. Otherwise. Move on with yours.

[OS2]

Thank you IHCLACS. She made plans for us today, I've told her I won't be seeing her as she still has methods of contact with OM and I v strongly suspect she is even still seeing him and I said she can't be working on our R while contact is still there. Up to to her now to sort out her mess. The way I feel now I'm not even sure if we can come back from this as further contact with OM is so hurtful and would mean she's been lying to me during our 'honest' conversations. I suspect from her replies there is still contact. I'm NC/detached. Can anyone advise on next steps? When will I know if she is ready? I think it's going to have to be good to get me back on board now.

[AnotherStander]

Thank you IHCLACS. She made plans for us today, I've told her I won't be seeing her as she still has methods of contact with OM and I v strongly suspect she is even still seeing him and I said she can't be working on our R while contact is still there.

Good! Now expect some lies and gaslighting. She'll deny she's talking to anyone, whether she is or not. She still needs to think she can lose you, and she needs to hit bottom before she'll truly be committed to recon.

Up to to her now to sort out her mess.

It really is. She's going to look for the path of least resistance through this mess she's created. She's got to learn there isn't one, she's got some work ahead of her.

The way I feel now I'm not even sure if we can come back from this as further contact with OM is so hurtful and would mean she's been lying to me during our 'honest' conversations. I suspect from her replies there is still contact. I'm NC/detached. Can anyone advise on next steps? When will I know if she is ready?

If you suspect it's going on then it probably is. Your next step is what everyone said above. Pull back. Don't pursue. Leave her be. Don't be so available to her. If she asks why you suddenly don't want to go out anymore then tell her what you said above- you're not interested until she's ready to make a 100% commitment, and you're not even sure if you'll be interested then.

[OS2]

Update. One thing I asked W to do is remove OM from social media. Rather than do that she’s deleted her profiles and said she’s removed them for good. W has mentioned before she would rather do that too than remove friends. Find this odd - if OM is still on the scene I would have thought she could tell him about it? Opting to delete social media accounts instead looks like saving face to me. Or maybe formally removing friends is less easy than turning it all off? W is going away tonight to see “old friends”. Says she feels pressured and wants space for a few days. Also says she wants to come back home at the weekend and make a new start, total commitment, will do whatever is needed. W said last night she’s been hoping to come back and start afresh. She thinks I’m a different person to the one she left and is sceptical whether I’m different for her. I told her it’s not for her it’s for me. Which is true. I’m giving her space.

[SteveLW]

Update. One thing I asked W to do is remove OM from social media.

Be careful with these requests. They come across as controlling.

[OS2]

Be careful with these requests. They come across as controlling.

Absolutely agree. I've been really careful with this. Asking her to end comm with OM is the only thing I've maintained which I feel is just respectful and an absolute requirement before R can begin. W has complained about controlling/punishing behaviour which I'm careful to avoid. That's not the type of relationship I want.

[LH19]

O,

I agree with you that she needs to delete him from all social media I just don’t think you should have told her that yet.

I want to brace your for the fact that you are still being played and this is all WW BS. She’s feeling pressured and needs space but a couple days away with “friends” is going to change that.

My bet is she is going to come home and half a$$ it while still seeing om or until she finds another om. I hope I wrong but the proof will be in her actions.

[OS2]

LH19, she seems quite frustrated to be honest so I'm staying very sceptical. The removal of contact was one of the first things we discussed and she suggested after BD so has been talked about a while. I'm well braced for problems, indeed it all depends on how she acts. I know she still cares about me, but I don't know much (if anything) apart from that.

[LH19]

Does frustrated seem like a good mindset for someone who is willing to do anything to make it work?

[LH19]

Frustrated sounds more like someone who probably doesn’t know where OM stands right now or that she has to give in to your demands to come home.

[mtb1981]

My WW told me similar things one time. That she was done running around and was going to move back home, but she needed one more weekend out to "get it out of her system". This was after I told her I knew about OM and didn't want her hanging around him anymore. At the time, my mind thought this was acceptable. I believed all the BS and thought when Sunday night came, she would be back home and willing to work on the R. She did stay at home Sunday night, but ended up having to "work late" every night after that. It's not that she wanted to come home (she sounded VERY sincere), but it's that she wanted me to shut the f up and stay out of her fantasy. The only way to sell it was to be sincere. So off she went shopping for plan A, while I was sitting at home being plan B worrying about what to do next so I didn't screw anything up when I was already screwed from the get go...

Believe nothing she says and half of what she does. Any WW that truly wants to save the M would be there in a heartbeat and bend over backwards to make things right. Not going out with her friends for the weekend. Have no expectations and be prepared...

[IHCLACS]

Update. Says she feels pressured and wants space for a few days. Also says she wants to come back home at the weekend and make a new start, total commitment, will do whatever is needed. W said last night she’s been hoping to come back and start afresh. She thinks I’m a different person to the one she left and is sceptical whether I’m different for her. I told her it’s not for her it’s for me.

She needs space but wants to come home and start fresh? Sounds like a walking contradiction of incongruency to me.

[OS2]

Appreciate the comments above. What she basically said is she's fed up of not making a decision in or out, ie not being able to make the jump and try and get the M back. She was intending to move back at start of the year until I found out about the A which changed everything but she’s been talking about moving back ever since although timelines have been pushed back several times. She’s said repeatedly she doesn’t want to move back in and then move out again, if she is coming back she’s coming back for good and she wants to make it work.

I’m being very careful and sceptical of everything. I don’t want to get carried away only for it to not work out or be taken for a ride. Separate living is a bridge I only want to cross once. I’ve told her already that unless she is ready to commit totally which includes full transparency of everything, no contact with OM she won’t be ready so I expect her to be transparent with everything where required if she moves back at the weekend. I’ll also tell her there will be no second chances once she’s moved back in. She is away with 'old friends' just tonight. I did wonder why and who - farewell to OM? Or getaway to gather thoughts before restarting? W is emotional a lot of the time and I wonder whether there is a depression/mental health issue at times as she doesn't appear very motivated to do things she used to which also makes me wonder whether she can be cake eating or not. She appears anxious and quite broken up too at times. There was a period of time when she seemed emotionally void not too long ago so I do wonder if she's been grieving OM and perhaps thinking that it was a mistake because it's left her nowhere. (or any number of reasons)

W is off work this week, but goes back to work next week. I know I'll have to be very careful there isn't a second life going on (and won't stand for late nights etc not knowing where she is) but I don't/won't stand for a M where I'm checking up on her all the time. We're transparent and I can be sceptical and not naive but I'm not playing detective all the time. I'll know by her actions.

No expectations.

[Jac12]

OS2 - I have been and am still am in a similar situation where my W is still at her own place. We still aren't back together although it FEELS like we are working towards it and I'm confident that there is no current OM (and I've never had proof of an OM in the past).

I urge you to stop telling her what you'll need as you guys aren't at that point yet. It's heavy. It may feel too much for her at the moment.

Do your own thing and give her all the space she wants right now. If she brings up R just listen and validate. If she asks specific questions you can be open and honest but keep things short. You dont' have to lay your cards on the table until she comes begging you to take her back.

She has ZERO worries about losing you at this moment - all she knows is that you don't want to live in an open marriage. So she is free to do what she wants now and when she decides/if she decides she wants you she knows you'll be there.

Put all your efforts into GAL and looking after yourself. You can respond to her in time, not right away as you're busy.

[OS2]

One last thing - there's nothing worse than a LHS who asks his WW where she is right? In this circumstance should I not ask where she is tonight with 'old friends'?

[Jac12]

Also...SHES FED UP WITH NOT MAKING A DECISION???

What about you? You have options in this too.

She won't know what she's got, 'til it's gone.

[OS2]

I urge you to stop telling her what you'll need as you guys aren't at that point yet. It's heavy. It may feel too much for her at the moment.

Thanks Jac12, I think you're definitely right on that and I don't think me doing that has helped. I think that's happened because I didn't want her to say she'll be moving back in and then hit with a load of requirements but I think it has weighed her down and has put her off coming back. I would have done that differently (along with a million other things). She knows all that now and I can't revisit it so I'm trying not to focus on that until she is ready.

[OS2]

What about you? You have options in this too. She won't know what she's got, 'til it's gone.

That's right! I think part of the reason she wants to move back now is she thinks she's going to lose me. I am getting worn out with it all and can't stand for it much longer.

[LH19]

I don’t believe that for a second that she thinks she’s going to lose you.

[hoosjim]

Update. Says she feels pressured and wants space for a few days. Also says she wants to come back home at the weekend and make a new start, total commitment, will do whatever is needed. W said last night she’s been hoping to come back and start afresh. She thinks I’m a different person to the one she left and is sceptical whether I’m different for her. I told her it’s not for her it’s for me.

If she's saying things like this, she's still not ready to commit. I remember in my sitch, the first "false start" with my WW involved her "committing" to "no contact" with OM... this is after i had just found her burner phone. She broke/threw away the phone, and then moped around the house for days saying snarky/resentful things like "No, I'm just going to sit her around the house like the 'good little wife' "

You'll know when she's ready to commit. She'll be desperate for it. Won't mind any transparency measures you suggest. May even suggest her own. And there will be no recalcitrance on her part... she'll be completely remorseful and contrite.

[OS2]

I don’t believe that for a second that she thinks she’s going to lose you.

She will even if she doesn't know it. I've only got so much patience and understanding. I take my part in the marriage and to her seriously and want to make it work out but if she couldn't commit for much longer I'm honestly not that far from the edge. I know there is a mountain to climb next too and can only do that if she's willing to put in her fair share.

[OS2]

You'll know when she's ready to commit. She'll be desperate for it. Won't mind any transparency measures you suggest. May even suggest her own. And there will be no recalcitrance on her part... she'll be completely remorseful and contrite.

This is what I'm looking for.

[AnotherStander]

Update. Says she feels pressured and wants space for a few days. Also says she wants to come back home at the weekend and make a new start, total commitment, will do whatever is needed. W said last night she’s been hoping to come back and start afresh. She thinks I’m a different person to the one she left and is sceptical whether I’m different for her. I told her it’s not for her it’s for me.

She needs space but wants to come home and start fresh? Sounds like a walking contradiction of incongruency to me.

Glad I'm not the only one reading it that way!

OS, I would give her WAY more space than a few days. Tell her you don't want to see her/ talk to her for a month. Tell her you need to think about things. Because you do. You're not thinking clearly right now, you're lost in a fog of false hope.

[SteveLW]

Update. Says she feels pressured and wants space for a few days. Also says she wants to come back home at the weekend and make a new start, total commitment, will do whatever is needed. W said last night she’s been hoping to come back and start afresh. She thinks I’m a different person to the one she left and is sceptical whether I’m different for her. I told her it’s not for her it’s for me.

She needs space but wants to come home and start fresh? Sounds like a walking contradiction of incongruency to me.

Glad I'm not the only one reading it that way!

OS, I would give her WAY more space than a few days. Tell her you don't want to see her/ talk to her for a month. Tell her you need to think about things. Because you do. You're not thinking clearly right now, you're lost in a fog of false hope.

THIS

[OS2]

OS, I would give her WAY more space than a few days. Tell her you don't want to see her/ talk to her for a month. Tell her you need to think about things. Because you do. You're not thinking clearly right now, you're lost in a fog of false hope.

That's an interesting idea. I want her to come back when she wants to come back because she really wants me/us and is willing to work not because she's run out of options. As has been said above I'll know it when that's the case.
We tend to have conversation daily over message and see each other a few times a week. She was staying over for a few nights at a time but that didn't really work and felt disjointed. We also spent a lot of time talking because we haven't got to MC stage and so weren't spending enough time having fun.
If I opted for your suggestion would I say something like "I've been thinking, I'm not sure either of us are ready to give the M what it needs, and think we should have a month apart to think things over"?

What do I really know for sure? I know there was an A with PA and EA. I know she was planning on covering it up and returning in January after giving me the 'wakeup call' of her walking out 1.5 months earlier. She was planning on continuing the EA "as friends". Everything else is guesswork. It could be that ever since I found out she's thought the whole situation is messed up, has been feeling awful about it and that I'll forever hold it against her, particularly as I wasn't particularly happy last year and she rebelled. It could be that there is lasting EA/PA or even someone new.

[AnotherStander]

If I opted for your suggestion would I say something like "I've been thinking, I'm not sure either of us are ready to give the M what it needs, and think we should have a month apart to think things over"?

I wouldn't put it that way, because she will argue that you don't know what she wants (which it true, you don't, and she probably doesn't either). Use "I" not "we". "I'm not sure I am ready to give the M what it needs, and think I need a month apart to think things over." Honestly you could even abbreviate it more and just say "I need a month apart to think things over." You don't have to explain yourself.

What do I really know for sure? I know there was an A with PA and EA. I know she was planning on covering it up and returning in January after giving me the 'wakeup call' of her walking out 1.5 months earlier. She was planning on continuing the EA "as friends".

I mean if you know that much then you know she's not willing to give up OM for you, and that's really all you need to know to continue DB'ing and give her more time and space until she's ready to do the right thing.

[OS2]

"I'm not sure I am ready to give the M what it needs, and think I need a month apart to think things over."

Think this is what I should have done, but I carried on blindly/hopefully and W has been back home a week now. She said she was fully committed before moving in but that hasn’t materialised - she still isn't being transparent sharing anything like phone etc which of course makes me feel there’s something still going on and wasn’t part of the deal of her moving back in. Our communication and friendship actually feels far better and she says she wants to be with me so badly but can't find the energy/spark etc. and feels inferior/shameful etc. due to what's happened. She keeps telling me how wonderful I am. I can't tolerate not having her full commitment though and feel she's still up to something whether that's EA or something more, I don't believe it's about privacy although she says it is. She said the other night she moved back in because she’s desperate to feel different about things and admitted she isn’t keeping up her end of things with the transparency.

I don't want to play detective or snoop and MWD says don't call W out on things with OM which I feel is right (even though difficult to bite my tongue, but I’m not stupid and am questioning everything because W is giving me 0 to build trust (apart from telling me where she is periodically) and there is plenty to question like thin excuses etc). W told me the couple of days away was at a friend's house for quiet reflection but I don't 100% believe that, she opted not to tell me where she was while she was there. I feel like a broken record now about NC with OM and I don’t want to bring that up anymore. She knows my position already. Situation is a little bit more complicated too because some relatives are ill which we are both close to.

What do you suggest I do now? I either say I need time and space and ask her to move back to her mum’s and initiate NC for her to sort herself out (does feel like a step back now) or get on with my life while she’s still living with me. I’m tired of asking for things from her (like NC with OM, transparency etc that she’s avoided/put off/usually says “I could do that” and doesn’t commit) and it makes me look weak when she’s not going through with them. Of course I can’t prove anything either way and don’t really want to either so it looks like I’m trying to control her if I go on about it. I should also keep in mind that OM contact could be overblown in my head because I’ve not got enough commitment/trust building from her. She completely plays down OM although half admitted that she could have messaged him while saying it's not about him, the problem is us.

She said that she feels stuck and that nothing she’s doing seems to be working and she’s miserable wherever she is. She’s not buying things for herself, not keeping up her appearance and wearing old/messy clothes as if punishing herself. She looks worn out. To me that doesn’t look like someone keeping up her appearance for an OM in a PA. (Thoughts?) She said she’s looking to me to tell her what she should do because she feels lost and says she needs a kick in the right direction. I think she’s being honest when she says she wants to be back together properly but she can’t emotionally grasp it. She says the dynamic between us has changed since we met and that we’re different people but still loves me, finds me attractive, likes my companionship, feels at home around me etc. She’s so close to me/relies on me for support/companionship and says she can’t imagine me not being in her life and she seems so vulnerable right now, crying every day etc that my instinct is to support her and help her through it but I feel like the best thing is to ask her to move out and initiate NC because nothing much is changing. I think that would be really tough for her, and I think that would be make or break for us. I think commitment on the transparency has to be a red line though - either there’s something going on or she doesn’t feel ready to commit yet?

Would really value some advice.

[LH19]

OS,

Unfortunately this is a typical behavior by WW and LBS. you were given great advice and you ignored it it. She gave her word and went back on it. I would frame it as you have thought about it and you need time and space to think about what you want and ask her to to move back to her mothers. I doubt she will but it’s worth a shot. My guess is that she’s still in contact with om and she’s going along with this facade that she gave it one more try and there’s no spark. Let me ask you a question. Take out her words. Is she doing anything to make you feel like she’s trying to recon with you?

[OS2]

I’ve said as above and W says she understands and will move out today but is there for me if I need her.

[LH19]

Well that's great of her to be so supportive (insert eyeroll). You got to hold strong and no more talking. She has to believe she may lose you for you to have any chance. Go completely NC. You don't have kids right?

Again if she wanted to work on it she would not leave so easily. IMO she never comes home again until she is seriously interesting in reconcile. You should probably start to prepare and see a lawyer.

[OS2]

I really don’t believe she wants to lose me deep down, but she will now without some major changes. No kids no. I’m preparing to move on. Very sad.

[Jac12]

I agree with LH - see a lawyer to understand what may happen if you D.

Do not contact her and IF you reply to her texts make sure you wait a bit - but I wound't respond to anything that isn't important. You're busy.

Focus on yourself.

[OS2]

W has been messaging tonight asking to see me tomorrow. I've told her I'll most likely be out but she can come and grab her things. Says she really misses me but is confused when we're together. Told her I need space to figure things out.

[OS2]

Out of curiosity, (purely hypothetically) if she *was* telling the truth would anything about my DB'ing be different? She says EA/PA before Christmas. Decided it was a bad idea and called it off, remained friends. Felt pretty pleased with herself that she ended it herself. Probably IMs OM a few times a week, doesn't see any harm in that and thinks he is unimportant and main problem is feels confused/can't get the spark back with H and M.

[SteveLW]

W has been messaging tonight asking to see me tomorrow. I've told her I'll most likely be out but she can come and grab her things. Says she really misses me but is confused when we're together. Told her I need space to figure things out.

Perfect!!! Well done.

Out of curiosity, (purely hypothetically) if she *was* telling the truth would anything about my DB'ing be different? She says EA/PA before Christmas. Decided it was a bad idea and called it off, remained friends. Felt pretty pleased with herself that she ended it herself. Probably IMs OM a few times a week, doesn't see any harm in that and thinks he is unimportant and main problem is feels confused/can't get the spark back with H and M.

No DBing is never different. GAL. 180s. Detachment. Even after starting to R, those things should continue.

Remember, when she wants to reconcile, you will know. When she doesn't, you'll be confused.

Her desire to R will be impossible to miss. In the meantime, always be DBing.

[OS2]

Perfect!!! Well done.

Thank you Steve85.

W just called me and said she thought she needed space but misses me and is worried that I’ve said I need space. She said she felt pressured when she came back. Probably something I messed up. She said she might look at buying a house/renting as she can’t continue living at her mum’s. Obv isn’t ready to work on M but said doesn’t want to be left out in the cold.

[LH19]

OS,

She’s manipulating you with threatening about getting another house. You’re suppose to be NC and you guys speak more then most married couples. Here is one hundred percent fact. She will not get her feelings back for you while she is still messaging other male. If you can hold your ground here you may have a very slight chance.

[OS2]

W came over tonight to collect her things. She said she was complacent when she moved back in and felt pressured but is willing to do everything required - phone etc, marriage counselling. She said spark will come back and that she’s 90% certain it’ll all work out. I told her I need space and time.

[LH19]

Good job! Now the challenge is coming to be for you to hold your word!

[SteveLW]

W came over tonight to collect her things. She said she was complacent when she moved back in and felt pressured but is willing to do everything required - phone etc, marriage counselling. She said spark will come back and that she’s 90% certain it’ll all work out. I told her I need space and time.

Did she start the R talk or did you?

[AnotherStander]

W has been messaging tonight asking to see me tomorrow. I've told her I'll most likely be out but she can come and grab her things. Says she really misses me but is confused when we're together. Told her I need space to figure things out.

GOOD! That's a perfect response.

W just called me and said she thought she needed space but misses me and is worried that I’ve said I need space. She said she felt pressured when she came back. Probably something I messed up. She said she might look at buying a house/renting as she can’t continue living at her mum’s. Obv isn’t ready to work on M but said doesn’t want to be left out in the cold.

This is how the distancer/ pursuer dynamic usually plays out. You pursue, she distances. But when you pull back and create some distance, then she starts pursuing. It's important to understand that she's still not ready to recon. She's getting there but you need to make it clear you are not just throwing the door open for her. I think you are doing a good job of that so far, so keep it up.

As far as being left out in the cold, she's trying to manipulate you into allowing her back on HER terms. Don't fall for it. Just listen and validate when she says these things. "That sounds difficult for you, I understand you're having a tough time and I hope it all works out." "So I can move back in?" "No, a lot would have to happen before I would ever consider that." "Like what?" "I don't want to discuss that until we are both ready to consider reconciling, and right now I am not and I don't think you are either."

[sandi2]

Out of curiosity, (purely hypothetically) if she *was* telling the truth would anything about my DB'ing be different? She says EA/PA before Christmas. Decided it was a bad idea and called it off, remained friends. Felt pretty pleased with herself that she ended it herself. Probably IMs OM a few times a week, doesn't see any harm in that and thinks he is unimportant and main problem is feels confused/can't get the spark back with H and M.

There are so many things I wanted to respond to while reading your threads, I don't know where to start. As the LBH, you have been very focused on her connection to OM. What I've seen happen in so many other cases, is the H is completely focused on just getting his W to end her A and move back home. Then after she moves back, he realizes he did not take time to heal. He begins to feel a lot of resentment for the things his W did, which makes it difficult when they are "piecing". For example, if you thought you had forgiven her for getting pregnant by another man, having an abortion and continuing on with OM..........it just might come back to fester in your heart. IDK........it's just an example.

Throughout both threads, I've seen your WW lie, betray, deceive, temp check, etc. There is no "formal" way to end an affair. It has to be killed in it's tracks. Every time she gives life to it, then it's not dead. It works just like a drug user. She has to go cold turkey b/c there is no tapering off, no last meeting, no going to OM's house, etc. The WW does not go from an affair with OM to just being "friends"........as if to suggest her H would be okay with them being friends. Her H should be insulted that she thinks he is that stupid.

As a former WW, I see no signs that your W isn't serious about reconciliation, which means, she certainly is not serious about doing the necessary work ahead. Don't let her come back, until that wayward spirit is broken. She is playing games, and she's playing you. She has made the usual WW statements. This entire situation has nothing to do with her trusting you. Don't ever forget it. She is the one who betrayed, lied, committed adultery, ect. I don't know what may have happened in past times, but if you didn't cheat on her.........then you can't compare apples with oranges. Make sense? She is the one who has to humbly apologize. Not this business of, "I just don't know if I can trust you or if you would ever forgive me". No.....that doesn't cut it. She should be so torn up that she can't look at you, and she certainly shouldn't feel she deserves forgiveness. She should show deep remorse for her unfaithfulness and the personal pain she caused you. There should be no hint of justification or pride. She doesn't get to dangle you at the end of the rope, while she makes up her mind if she wants to give you another chance to make her happy. You see, in her viewpoint, it's all about her happiness. That is her top priority, and she thinks making her happy should be your number one priority, too. Nothing can compare with the selfishness and sense of entitlement, quite like the WW.

So, here are my suggestions. Stop having talks with her. Stop agreeing to have meet ups and luncheons/dinners. Stop repeating your stipulations for reconciliation. At this point, she knows what you want, and there is nothing else to discuss. She wants your availability, and that's why she makes these excuses to talk. Stop giving her your time & attention. Don't explain anything, just stop. She'll know why, but she'll play stupid, b/c she wants to get you into another long drawn out conversation. Remember, don't explain what you are doing, or why you are doing it. If she invites you to meet with her, just tell her you have nothing more to discuss. I mean, you don't have to see how ugly or rude you can tell her, but you might have to be firm, if she's not use to being told "no".

Here's the thing, you are going to have to dump her. It's the last thing the WW expects! The WW wants to keep her LBH's availability. She wants his friendship........but she doesn't want to be lovers with him. She keeps playing you, to keep you as her backup plan. You are so emotionally attached to her, it's hard for you to see clearly. You need to intentionally pull back and give both of you space, while you focus on the things that you enjoy. You have self respect, moral integrity, standards, dignity, etc., and you live your life based on the values that been instilled in you. When you feel yourself consumed by emotions, you need something bigger/stronger to guide you through. So, if you must, you can tell her that you need some space and time, but don't share with her everything you are learning from us.

This will throw her into more pursuit, and she'll probably temp check to gauge your emotional attachment to her. When you don't fall for it, then she'll get mad. So what! Let her get mad. Now, your first thought may be, "But won't this push her further away?" Don't you want her back, only if she cuts all contact (direct and indirectly) with OM, and is seriously remorseful and ready to commit to doing whatever it takes to save the M? Things usually get worse before they get better, and frankly, I don't think they've reached that point yet, b/c she's still playing footsie with OM. Detaching will help you see things with a clearer head.

Stop sharing a calendar with her! She fired you as her H, so she doesn't get to see your activity plans. You don't discuss your plans or anything else with her. Okay?

You are worried since there are no children that it will be a disadvantage, however, the WW doesn't let children stand in her way.......so don't fret over no kids.

I think the toughest part for you will be no conversations with her. Like many, you see the importance of healthy communication. However, you cannot talk a WW back into the M. You can't nice her back, either. Just to clarify, you don't need to tell her you are dumping her. Simply start conducting yourself as if you are. Break yourself from old habits, like responding to her text messages. You have nothing else to say. Trust me when I say that when she believes you are done, and she believes she's lost you, the more likely she'll get serious about saving her MR.........she will have a completely different attitude, and she will agree to your terms of reconciliation. It's not about her terms, b/c she was unfaithful, and there should be no leeway for her stubbornness or pride. If you see it, then she's not a point of humility.

Oh, BTW, before I forget to tell you........the transparency is not just so that you can keep track of her activity. If she is honestly working through her withdrawal stage of ending her affair, being transparent will work to support her. Knowing that you can see, can help her stay honest. I know, if she wants to cheat, she'll find a way. If she wants to work on her MR, and if she has nothing to hide......she'll be glad for you to see her clean record. The WW whines about not having privacy. Why does she need privacy from her H? That's the problem. When she has secret or exclusive relationships.....friendships.....communications........it invites trouble into the MR. So many people today are addicted to several means of private communications, so naturally, they don't want to give it up. Since when was it alright to have private/secret relationships with the opposite sex? I think it's safe to say, if this situation was reversed, she'd have a fit if she caught you in an inappropriate relationship. That's another one of those things about the WW that makes you go........"hum".

[SteveLW]

Well said, as always sandi! (BTW, Hoyt could use your assistance as well.)

[AnotherStander]

Yes great stuff from Sandi! She really helps to explain the reasoning why the rest of us are offering certain advice.

[OS2]

Wow, thank you so much Sandi2 (and Steve85/AnotherStander/LH19), you've really hit several nails on the head. I think you're absolutely right about time to heal. I've been thinking ever since I found out about it all that it was moving quickly but I was so urged to try and fix everything and overrun with emotion I didn't want to slow things down. Now I do and I think I'm working through feelings for the long term. I figured we could work through all of that together but I don't want to store up any long term problems, it's a lot to deal with. For the last 3 months I've been reading relationship advice books and focusing on how to be a better husband (which is good self development, but quite ridiculous given the circumstances when the other partner isn't ready for commitment). I think my emotions took over and I was indirectly (and probably directly) pressuring her to come back which didn't help. W also thinks I like having control in the M so having me uninterested is a bit of a 360.

I've thought from the very beginning that some of the advice on here is very good and some of it is over the top and thought "well our M is a bit different, because my W is trying and some of these rules could be for stronger cases" but I've had to learn the hard way that I should have been stronger, more objective and not so empathetic from the start. When she came back but didn't hold up transparency I've developed that strength now. She's sending me messages saying she wants to come home, missed calls etc. but the space is actually doing me good now, and if she reaches a stage when she is properly engaged I'll be better for it. I actually don't want the WW back, I want the W I married back and feel I've got to wait for that to appear again before I'll be interested in working on it together.

Given the situation, W's said before she'd 'like to go back to the dating stage'. I don't know whether she is trying to say less commitment than a M? Or less pressure? If she was as interested as she was when we were dating I'd be willing to give that a go. As you say I'll know when I see it. She's trying to get reactions from me and volunteering to do things for me.

Did she start the R talk or did you?

She did. I'm not talking any R now or conditions or R. At all. I've said all I need to say anyway. We've spent weeks talking about those things too on and off (initiated on both sides).

it's all about her happiness. That is her top priority, and she thinks making her happy should be your number one priority, too. Nothing can compare with the selfishness and sense of entitlement, quite like the WW.

This is exactly it. So many times she's said "I just want to be happy".

I think the toughest part for you will be no conversations with her.

This is difficult, because she rings or messages and I feel rude if I see it and don't respond but I genuinely am quite busy.

the transparency is not just so that you can keep track of her activity. If she is honestly working through her withdrawal stage of ending her affair, being transparent will work to support her. Knowing that you can see, can help her stay honest.

I didn't think of it from that angle but it's an important point. I actually don't really want to pry into her conversations with friends. She thinks I want to be checking up on her all the time but as I've told her when we were discussing R early on, it's more a display that she's got nothing to hide. Being accountable keeping her on the straight and narrow is important though too.

The weakness in all my DB'ing is that I want to believe her that the A is history/didn't mean anything, and she wants to get the M back on track but is struggling emotionally, but I have to keep reminding myself she is a WW and if her actions are confusing it's because she is a WW. When she came to collect her stuff (day after moving out and 24hr NC) she said she was willing for total transparency etc and to make it work. But she said in return she'd want to not talk about the past at all (apart from in MC) and move on, and a few other things she wanted. I think we both need more time, but I'm conscious I don't want to miss the right time to R.

[OS2]

Sandi2 - previously on this thread it was mentioned that you had some advice on what a returning W should look like. I've looked through the forums on here but haven't found anything concrete. Have you got any pearls of wisdom on what to look for, and when a WW is "on the turn" to return to the M and give her all to make it work?

[sandi2]

Sandi2 - previously on this thread it was mentioned that you had some advice on what a returning W should look like. I've looked through the forums on here but haven't found anything concrete. Have you got any pearls of wisdom on what to look for, and when a WW is "on the turn" to return to the M and give her all to make it work?

Here's a short list, and these come in no particular order. The WW may not express all of these at once. My caution to the LBH is to take it slow and don't delete any of these things to make it easy for her to come back to you. Letting her come back too quickly and/or too easily is a big mistake. I promise, you will regret it.

*Remorse and expression of repentance
*Humbleness (it will show mostly in her attitude)
*Gives a sincere apology (with no excuses) for the pain she has caused you.
*Takes full responsibility for her actions, without excuses or blame......(especially an affair, and without trying to put some responsibility on your back).
*Willingness to do whatever you say is necessary to reconcile. She doesn't get to call the shots.
*Agreeing to your terms (end the affair cold turkey, no contact with OM, transparency, STD tests, share MBR with you, marriage counseling, etc.)
*Cooperation

Don't tell her the emotions you need to see in her. WW's are great actresses, b/c they are deceivers. To tell her what emotions to show, is giving away your ability to determine if she's being genuine or playing you for a fool.

If she should ask what it will take or what she has to do, then you can tell her everything except the first two. That doesn't mean you have to take her back right then....b/c you are the offended partner here. If she agrees to those terms, then you can take time to decide if you think she's serious or not. Here's the thing, most LBH's are way to eager to take back a wayward wife, and they are afraid to make it difficult for her return. If he only understood how important it is to not let her come back too quickly or too easily. What I mean by coming back too easily, is that she has not processed and/or made changes, so she basically has the same mindset.

My second link on Help for the LBH with a WW talks about this subject.

I may copy and past one of the posts from that thread.

[sandi2]

OS2, if you have not read my previous post from few minutes ago, please read it first.

I don't know if you have read the links about WW's, listed at the bottom of page 1 on Sandi's Rules. It took several threads, trying to cover some things I wanted to share with newcomer LBH's, plus trying to answer those who were posting to me on the thread. The first thread is about the mindset of the WW, plus more things, too.

I wrote pretty extensively in my second thread of "Help for the Newcomer LBH who has a WW#2" on the subject of what a returning WW looks like, and caution to not take her back too quickly. There is also some great help from a couple of retired members, Wonka and Starsky, you might want to read.

Below is a quote from an anxious LBH. It may not reflect your exact sitch, but my response is close enough to answer your question. If not, then I'll try again.

It's been one month since I've seen her. Still no contact about her coming to get some stuff. What I've been wondering is how do I handle it if she says she misses me, I know the general idea is we have to wait until they are 100% committed to working on the R or M but how do I best transition that? Or do I just test to see if she's even interested in working on stuff?

Response from Sandi:

Let's break this down a bit, b/c none of this is going to happen all at the same time.

If she should make contact with you, she will probably use some excuse as being the basis of her contact. In the conversation, she may just say something about missing you. You want to know how you should respond, right? My suggestion is that you don't make an instant reply, b/c this is no big "sign" that she's having second thought or anything. It is more like her temp checking you to see that you are still attached. So what do you normally say when someone makes a statement you find very hard to believe. That is kind of the attitude you need at this particular time, that you know she is full of BS. You don't say it, but you know that's what she is doing.

I doubt you will follow my advice, but you should say, "Really!" (as if you know she's lying) "Surprisingly, I have made it much better than I would have thought".

Do you know why you tell a WW this? So she will think you are moving on........and she was the one to set you free! Even though she may respond in such a way that sounds differently, that will be what she is thinking. She has made you a free agent. This train of thought will get her focus on you a lot more than you could imagine! Do not sound like some pitiful victim that has been booted out of his M. Sound like a guy who is single and is discovering it's not too bad!

I am not sure if I understand the second part of that first question. The waiting till they are ready to commit to the M is referring to reconciliation. It is unlikely she will call out of the blue, saying she wants to save the M. However, if that should happen, do not jump at the chance to tell her, "Yes, of course!". You stall, and say something like, "I would like to believe you, however, things aren't that simple now". Then if she asks what you mean, you say, "I would have to feel I would not be hurt again, and considering everything, I don't know that I can take that risk yet". (Side note: You can even practice saying these things to yourself, if it will give you more confidence.)

By this point in the contact, you may be able to decide if she's temp checking or if she's genuine. I can assure you that if you seem excited about the possibilities of getting back together, it will turn her away. If there was ever a time to act hard to get, it would be at this time. She has to really want you back.......and not b/c she saw how tough life can be, or b/c OM rejected her, or b/c having you as plan B is safe. You want her back b/c she desires no man but you! If you agree to take her back under any other conditions, it will not be the M you want.

You are waiting to hear her ask what would it take. That is the time to tell her the conditions, and don't tell her before she asks. The conditions should be that she writes a letter to OM, stating that she made a terrible mistake by ending her R with you, and that she does not love OM and never wants to have contact with him again. She tells him she loves you and wants to work on her M. She writes this in her handwriting, no email or text, not even typed out. She gives it to you to read before mailing it. YOU mail the letter, not her.

She agrees to your transparency plan, not hers. She agrees to get tested for any STD, with you going with her to the doctor. She agrees to attend MC sessions with the therapist you choose.

I am probably leaving something out, but you get the general idea. There is a lot to consider when reconciling, or you will have a repeat experience in all probability.

A few things to look for, which are essential. One, is she remorseful? If not, don't waste your time. Does she get an attitude about any of the above? Has she apologized? How willing is she to do the necessary work? If she balks, accuses you of controlling, starts giving you her conditions of coming back, tells you that you'll just have to trust her, or any excuse for not fully cooperating with everything you want........then she was not really ready.

See what I mean? There is more involved than her simply missing you. And btw, it may take a long time for her to really miss you. Know the difference here, missing you is one thing........willing to do what is necessary to save the M is quite another!

OS2, I want you to understand that most WW's think that they can simply waltz back into the home on their own terms. They think the LBH wants her back too much to ask questions, much less throw out any terms. Never allow her to come back calling the shots. I promise you it will be disastrous. She has to agree to your terms, okay. She's the cheater, not you, and if she has the chance.....she'll try to twist things around and pull you into her terms. Humility is key, and if it's not genuine, it will quickly show in her attitude. That's why you need to give it some time, before agreeing to take her back.

Don't say anything to her about what I'm sharing with you, okay? WW's are great actresses b/c they are deceivers. It's no problem for her to turn on the tears........but if you can't tell the difference in true remorse and in her putting on an act, then it's best to stall and tell her you would like to believe her, but you aren't sure. She cannot put the spotlight on herself.....like a pity party, or start naming your faults. Nope, none of that stuff. If she is genuinely ready to be a good wife to you, then she will show signs of repenting.

If you are still not convinced, then taking time to date her would probably help (if she's ended her affair and is willing to follow your terms of reconciliation). Never date a WW who has not ended contact with OM. Dating would only be in order when you are working toward reconciliation and she's on the same page.

[OS2]

Thank you Sandi, it's difficult to know what stage we're both at but that's very helpful. I would say she's been very remorseful and offered several sincere apologies. Oddly enough the bit that hasn't been forthcoming (willingness to do what is necessary, agreeing to terms) is the bit I've probably pushed most on, although she's said she would now do that (without me asking). I suppose that's either because she wasn't ready to let go of EA with OM or was seeing what she could get away with. It's difficult to know exactly what's going on behind the scenes and I've made peace now to not ask or investigate but that makes everything a bit more tricky. Would you ask for transparency for a period before she comes home? Would you want commitment for a period of time from all those points BEFORE having W home?

There was a lot of emotion and apology early on and she wasn't looking after herself very well for a while but it seems she is trying to move on from the A and not dwell on it (it has been discussed a lot) which is difficult for me as I feel we both have healing left to do and I feel I need to still see her remorse, even though she still apologises for it and says how bad she's been. She also said if we can R that we not talk about it apart from during MC. I think it's wise to not apply any pressure and let her come to her own conclusions though.

I'm still detaching and GAL, she's now messaging me a lot, calling me etc. that I'm answering only when I have to. Yesterday she came to find me at work which has never happened before and said she wanted to see me as I wasn't responsive to messages. She said she is looking for a house because she can't stay at her mums anymore. I think there's some truth to that but mainly an excuse to see me and temp check I think. She's looking at me differently though which is the biggest sign so far. I feel she's nearly ready in her mind but I won't apply any pressure and will try and wait longer than I feel I should. And all those points need satisfying before anything.

[sandi2]

it's difficult to know what stage we're both at but that's very helpful. I would say she's been very remorseful and offered several sincere apologies. Oddly enough the bit that hasn't been forthcoming (willingness to do what is necessary, agreeing to terms) is the bit I've probably pushed most on, although she's said she would now do that (without me asking).

You cannot pressure her to reconcile. That doesn't mean that you have to back down from your terms to her coming back. Know the difference? It's very important that you understand you can't apply emotional pressure and drag her back into the MR. When talk of reconciliation comes up, you tell her the terms, then she is free to accept them or move on. The fear a lot of H's hold, is that she won't agree to the terms. Think about it, do you really want a wayward W back, if she refuses to the terms I suggested?

She has to be free to make the choice to come back. With that said, let me clarify that you are allowed to have stipulations about reconciling. She probably won't love the idea that she can't throw in her own terms for you, but it's her choice to agree, or move on without you. If she really wants to reconcile, then she has to agree to your terms. That's it. Don't wait until she's back home until you tell her. If the WW is remorseful, humble, etc., and truly wants to save her M, then she shouldn't have that big of a problem with the terms I've suggested. If she does have a huge problem and balks, let that be your warning bell.

It's difficult to know exactly what's going on behind the scenes and I've made peace now to not ask or investigate but that makes everything a bit more tricky. Would you ask for transparency for a period before she comes home? Would you want commitment for a period of time from all those points BEFORE having W home?

Why would you consider taking her back, without checking to see if she's still in contact with OM? There is a difference in gathering enough Intell to determine if she is still seeing OM, from snooping to read her email every day. Maybe that sounds as if I'm trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth, but LBH's get addicted to snooping, and then they have a big problem. All you need to know is if she & OM are still in contact. Once you know that she's still in contact with OM, there's no reason to continue gathering Intell. Beyond that.......it's just plain old spying, IMHO. Listen carefully, do NOT take her back, until you know she has ended the affair. At this point, you still can't afford to believe anything she says.

I've read about one other couple who divorced and then the WW wanted them to see if they could "work things out" or start over......whatever. He insisted on a transparency plan, which I didn't see how it could be effective with them living apart.........but she agreed, and eventually, she slipped up and he was savvy enough to catch it while digging through buried emails. So, he said good riddance and dropped her.

It's not enough for the WW to show you her phone, b/c that's just way too easy for her to manipulate the messages she doesn't want you to see. IMHO, all she needs to is "agree" to being transparent, and to giving you her passwords to her phone, email, etc. She may ask when you will look, or even "offer" her phone, but you never tell her anything. You don't tell her when you are going to look at her phone, and you don't tell her to go get it, or to show it to you. Why? B/c she has the opportunity to delete anything she doesn't want you to see. You don't look at her phone every day, nor at the same time of day. At some point, she'll lay her phone aside, and you will have a chance to look, without her knowledge. Why do I suggest without her knowledge, and why isn't that snooping? First, it isn't snooping if she agreed to it. And the reason you don't give her notice, or "warning", that you are about to look at her phone is b/c if she's being dishonest, you won't likely catch her on her phone. You have to be smarter than she is.

In 2020, there are many apps that provide services for cheaters, and you may have the opinion, "If she wants to cheat, she'll find a way". That's true, but the point of a transparency plan (from the viewpoint of a former WW) is to help her get through the horrible withdrawal stages after contact with OM has stopped. I went through withdrawals for months! However, I finally beat it, with the help of my board friends and knowing my H was searching my comp history. Sure, I there were other ways I could have contacted OM, but I didn't. And here's the thing, I wanted my H to see that I had really ended it. I had nothing to hide, so why should I mind?

Transparency doesn't have to last forever, but it's up to you to decide how often and for how long. Some H's go for a couple of yrs without looking, then decide to check.........and there it is. She has deceived him again. She gets use to him not looking and not saying anything about it, and she thinks it's clear to pick up old behaviors.....like cheating. It's very important that she has no idea when, or if, you'll check her phone. And the beauty of it, is that every WW will eventually get careless. She may be smart, but she will get careless.

I think you ask some valid questions about transparency and commitment before she moves back home. If I was the LBS, I would need verbal commitment before I agreed she could come back, plus her agreement to the other terms. I think having time to date each other, is okay, as long as it is exclusive and she's not trying to date others. You could ask if she would agree to transparency before she moves back, and if she'll give you her passwords. This is key, b/c she'll claim you are wanting to control her (which is the mantra of most WW's, and it's mostly hogwash). She'll complain that it is intrusion of privacy, etc. (which is true), but that's why it is a noteworthy sign that she really wants to prove herself. It may, or may not, take. If she doesn't want to do it, that's her choice, but you won't reconcile without it.

Is all of this as clear as mud?

[OS2]

I've had a bereavement in the family this week and it’s changed my DB game a bit because W came over after hearing about it and I’ve seen her the last few days.

When W left after BD I wanted to get her back and the M back on track. And when I found out about the A I thought initially it was all over and I was going to be moving on. Even though before I felt like I had partially come to terms with the possibility of an A before BD (but had dismissed it as unlikely). After finding out, the emotions for W (that I think were partially residual from her leaving too) pushed me into thinking I could fix it (typical man) and get the M back, and perhaps we’d be happier overall. In the process of doing that I applied pressure (often unknowingly).

When W moved back in she said she felt that she had to do that otherwise she was going to lose me as I’d told her I would probably move on if she didn’t want to try. Since finding out and trying to fix all this I haven’t been sleeping properly at all. I asked W to move out as above for a second time because she didn’t hold up her end of the R and honestly I didn't get all the right signs either (thanks for confirming those Sandi). I detached, and am still not replying much. She has complained at the lack of contact.

Since she left for the second time I’m sleeping fine again, and I think that’s because I was pushing for something that wasn’t being returned and she felt pressured to try. I also wasn’t taking any time for myself to come to terms with everything - even though I had time I wasn’t using it. W seems happier and healthier now than she has looked in weeks. I don’t ask where she is/where she’s been and avoid R talk. I think she is either feeling the benefit of less pressure and R talk or more space with OM? I would like to think the former but I don’t know.

W is enjoying less stress from talking about the A and feeling pressure from me although says she misses me a lot and thinks about coming back all the time. She talks about the future what she’d like to do with children, and planning on where we might live etc. What’s weird is a big gap in the middle because I feel the present is currently missing and we’re not talking R any more. It’s starting to make me complacent and uninterested. Almost like she's picking the desirable bits of her future (stability, kids, etc) without having to put the effort in now. When W was over this week after the bereavement we kissed a bit and she has started kissing me when we've parted of her own accord. I don’t know whether I should let that continue because I don’t know status of OM but I think it’s a good sign (and I think the first physical thing she’s done without me suggesting/initiating). Should I be putting a stop to that and stating I need R first?

I think she’d like to move to us ‘dating’ but I don’t think I can honestly do that without R. Otherwise I’d worry I might be settling for scraps and crumbs if I’m not careful. With ‘dating’ she gets my involvement and attention which I don’t want to give without commitment. On the other hand I don’t want to apply any pressure. OM works away usually but has been in between jobs and has been living close by for the last 6 months. I will be suspicious if him leaving coincides with her wanting to come back. She told me the day after I asked her to leave she would do all the transparency etc but I don’t want to rush anything and get it wrong. She also says she’s confident we’ll get back together but her slow pace is turning me off. Should I detach/NC again or stay semi-available to see what happens? I suppose if it progresses I'll just have to state that I'm not ready for that yet until she is ready to commit?

[OS2]

W has asked if I’m busy tonight after little contact (from my side) for a few days. My instinct is to be busy tonight? She tries to get close and cuddly when she comes over but I think I need to think about some new boundaries because I’m not getting any commitment.

[SteveLW]

W has asked if I’m busy tonight after little contact (from my side) for a few days. My instinct is to be busy tonight? She tries to get close and cuddly when she comes over but I think I need to think about some new boundaries because I’m not getting any commitment.

You are ALWAYS busy. So yes, your instinct is correct.

Head says you are busy. Heart says you want to see her and accommodate her. Always go with your head.

[sandi2]

I've had a bereavement in the family this week and it’s changed my DB game a bit because W came over after hearing about it and I’ve seen her the last few days.

Sorry for your loss, but how does seeing your W the last few days change your DB game? It seems when she showed interest, you want to pull back, and maybe vise versa.

What’s weird is a big gap in the middle because I feel the present is currently missing and we’re not talking R any more. It’s starting to make me complacent and uninterested.

When you use the R abbreviation, do you mean relationship or reconciliation?

She told me the day after I asked her to leave she would do all the transparency etc but I don’t want to rush anything and get it wrong.

So, has she agreed to everything except actually committing?

She also says she’s confident we’ll get back together but her slow pace is turning me off.

What are you calling slow pace? You just said you didn't want to rush anything and get it wrong.

Should I detach/NC again or stay semi-available to see what happens? I suppose if it progresses I'll just have to state that I'm not ready for that yet until she is ready to commit?

No, at this point, I would be upfront and tell her what you need from her, if she's seriously talking about coming back. If you want commitment, then tell her you won't reconcile unless she commits to doing the necessary work to save the M. If you need more time, then tell her.

And what if she tells you she is ready to commit? Will you be turned off? Will you feel you must take her back?

IDK, but you sound a bit confused to me. If you aren't certain where things stand with OM, or you aren't sure about your feelings.......then I'd suggest you tell her you need more time to think. Nothing says you have to agree to reconcile right now. I don't think I could, if I wasn't sure the affair was over. And, if OM has just recently left, she will have "withdrawals" coming her way. There's nothing wrong with her pursuing you for a while.

When I see a woman wanting to date her H before they reconcile, I suspect she wants the romance, but maybe it's her way of testing the waters. I wouldn't date her while she dates other men.

Don't do anything until you feel you are ready.

[OS2]

When you use the R abbreviation, do you mean relationship or reconciliation?

I mean reconciliation, but could have been both. I asked her to move out because she wasn't willing to do what she'd said and it felt like she was uncomfortable. I stopped talking about both but because of that it has felt a little like we've been drifting and almost like she's off the hook.

So, has she agreed to everything except actually committing?

Yes, the following day after I asked her to move out she came round and said she was willing to do what I asked. I felt that I had only just asked her to leave though and despite what she was telling me she had moved back in for the wrong reasons anyway/prematurely so I didn't want to jump at that, but rather thought more time was a better idea. Asking for space when I had been the one applying pressure was quite a shock for her I think and she's been showing more interest in me since. In the longer term that has proved to be the right thing to have done I think as I feel I've had more time to stop and properly deal with things. Space has also made me contemplate life without her and convince myself that while hard I could do it and be successful in whatever happens. Out of your R list, she has showed remorse and sincere apology (on a number of occasions), and taken responsibility for her actions. She's explained how it led to that point but has said it didn't excuse at all what she did, and she repeats how badly she has acted. She has stated a few things she wants going forward if we were to R. She has said she would agree to my terms. I was hoping she would try and actively win me over, although my detachment has brought her closer and she feels I'm closing her off. I'm getting caring/loving daily messages from her trying to get my attention.

Should I detach/NC again or stay semi-available to see what happens?

No, at this point, I would be upfront and tell her what you need from her, if she's seriously talking about coming back.

I feel now might be the right time to talk about R if she is willing. She's wanted to see me a few days and I've said I'll see her tonight. She phoned me last night (which I answered to her surprise) and says that she feels like I'm trying to block her out of my life and that she misses me. She said she feels things are different now.

And what if she tells you she is ready to commit? Will you be turned off? Will you feel you must take her back?

I don't feel like I must, no. But I won't be turned off either. I've been preparing for the worst actually since she moved out which has helped me be more relaxed about it. There's still a lot of hurt and pain and although in some respects she appears to have been moving on from the A I need her to keep appreciating what it's done to our M (I know in the books it says don't worry, she won't forget it in a hurry!) and all her effort to make it work again and make a success of it. I still love her though and want to make it work, but I won't take anything other than total commitment because I know it won't work otherwise and I won't put up with any half measures.

[OS2]

W came over, discussed R. She said she's confident we can make it work, she's going to think about moving back in 'soon'. I gave no pressure. Makes me wonder why she's putting it off now, feels like she's running down the clock on OM being in town. Feel I need to work out whether OM is still on the scene in order to decide what to do next.

[LH19]

OS,

I’m afraid you don’t understand the dynamics here. You go from asking for space so you can think about what you want moving forward. Supposed no contact to which you lasted maybe a day? A now she’s back to calling the shots and will think about moving back soon wtf???? Plus you think OM is in the picture still?

Again you hang on her words and yet ignore her actions. I’m not gonna lie. In my opinion you are moving backwards.

[OS2]

I feel it too. I had half a week of far less contact etc, I felt her chasing and saying she wants to come back. I set out the R demands, feel back to square one now with her giving this same old timeline. I’ve no idea if OM is on the scene and that’s making me doubt everything. And I can’t/won’t trust her that OM isn’t - either it’s a hunch that’s right or she’s broken my trust so much that I just don’t trust at all.

You’re right - actions. She’s not moving back in. So I’ve got nothing from her right?

What next? I’m too impetuous because I’ve been at this crap for too long now and I want closure and results. Patience, I know but it’s all wearing way too thin now.

[LH19]

O,

You have a lot of things working against you right now. She knows your still very attached and easily manipulated. Your impatience is definitely working against you. Until she gets a sense that she may lose you it looks like you will remain in limbo.

[sandi2]

WW's can be like a cat toying with a mouse.

[OS2]

Update:

We had a long conversation and WW said she would do anything to come home. She gave me all the signs and she has been back a week now. I have been learning to trust. A lot of the problems with her conduct have gone or are significantly reduced. Transparent, sharing location and trying. She is different, treats me different and it's going ok. Through talking and R I feel we've finally got to the bottom of what the real problem has been all along now though: sex and physical intimacy.

Many years ago (before we were engaged) I had doubts about the relationship. I overcame those doubts and proposed and we subsequently got married. What the vocalising of those doubts did to W though was apparently to turn her off sexually and she has been struggling ever since. When the M went through a rough patch last year it tipped her over the edge which led to the A. I believe this to be the case from what else I know and it also explains a lot and reduces my fears substantially of OM which is really helpful to our R. It finally fits.

There could be a lot of psychological reasons for this (eg fear of abandonment because I was seemingly happy but contemplating the future at the time) but it seems we didn't properly deal with that back then and it has caused a rift in our relationship and M. W has mentioned this before but was never talked about properly. W is therefore not wanting to be physical (being true to how she feels), but says she wants to want it more than anything because everything else is perfect. I really believe her and think we've made some honest progress in the last few weeks. Any suggestions as to what to do now? She says she's still attracted, etc but just not interested in P. I've suggested a MC, and ordered MWD's sex starved book for some inspiration.

[LH19]

O,

Sounds like you have been ignoring some of the great advice you have been given here. You say you have been learning to trust but are you verifying. Do you have her passwords and are you verifying? You said you suggested MC when that should have been a mandatory agreement to come back home. IC should have been mandatory too.

Again she seems to be great with the words but actions tell me that right now you are in the friend zone. Now it may take some time to progress in a physical relationship but you will need to see effort on her part.

[sandi2]

I have been learning to trust.

Have you listen to anything I say about WW's? Just b/c she repeated the things you pounded into her head, does not mean squat, if she hasn't ended all contact with her affair partner. The WW will try to make her H believe he has to trust her. No, he doesn't. She has to prove herself through a long period of transparency, and consistently doing the necessary work to save the M. IMHO, I doubt she has broken contact with OM, and she's gaslighting you. You need to go fishing for evidence. Asking her if she's being deceitful, is not evidence. You can let it ride for a while, then check her phone without her knowledge (since she agreed to transparency). If she has a burner, she'll eventually get careless.

Transparent, sharing location and trying.

Really? Does she volunteer to show or tell you where she is........or have you looked at her phone activity when she wasn't watching you? Of course, she can find many ways around it, if she isn't seriously trying to make the MR work. volunteering what information she decides to share, isn't worth much.

Through talking and R I feel we've finally got to the bottom of what the real problem has been all along now though: sex and physical intimacy.

Of course it is! A married woman can't love two men at the same time. She can't even love one, if she doesn't respect him as a man. She lost attraction for you b/c she stopped respecting you. So, is she trying to sleep in separate beds, or is she just rejecting your advances?

Many years ago (before we were engaged) I had doubts about the relationship. I overcame those doubts and proposed and we subsequently got married. What the vocalising of those doubts did to W though was apparently to turn her off sexually and she has been struggling ever since.

WW's b.s.

When the M went through a rough patch last year it tipped her over the edge which led to the A. I believe this to be the case from what else I know and it also explains a lot and reduces my fears substantially of OM which is really helpful to our R. It finally fits.

You are listening to her lies, and she wants you to believe her waywardness has nothing to do with the problems in the MR. She wants you to buy this false excuse, so that she doesn't have to engage in sex.

It finally fits.

No, it doesn't fit. Expressing your doubts about your relationship back in the dating years would not turn her off sexually. Maybe she was never attracted to you, but why did she go through the engagement and the wedding? Why stay M to you? It doesn't fit.

W is therefore not wanting to be physical (being true to how she feels), but says she wants to want it more than anything because everything else is perfect.

Being true to how she feels is classic WW talk. The fact she is saying everything else is perfect, tells me she is lying to you. Listen, if she had really ended all forms of contact with the OM, she'd be suffering from withdrawals. It usually takes several months just to get through the withdrawals. She can't fall out of love with you, into love with OM, then out of love with him and bounce back into love with you again. I mean, she "can", but it takes sufficient time. If you've been pressing her for sex, like I suspect you have..........you know, to seal the deal? That's what most LBH's want, to assure themselves she's for real. Well, she's not being real with you. I agree that it takes time for a recovering WW to start feeling sexual desire for the H she disrespected, but your WW is feeding you a bucket of b.s. She wanted to come back home, but she doesn't want to cut OM out of her life. If you are wise, you won't share with her what I'm saying here. There are a few things the LBH needs to keep to himself, as a measuring tool to know if his WW is anywhere close to authenticity.

I think you probably over-shared too much DB information with her during all those R talks. Some pushy LBH's tell the WW exactly what emotion and/or response he needs to see from her, in order to reconcile. I'm not talking about his requirements to reconcile (like attending family therapist sessions, who deals with couples healing from an affair). You were checking everything off the list, and that usually means the LBH has described in length what he needs to see in her before taking her back.......like remorse, taking responsibility, apologize, etc. Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am.........but I don't think I am.

It's not the end of the road for the M, but you need to hang very close to the board so that you have better balance in what you are really seeing & hearing. Will you keep posting? This can turn around, but it won't happen quickly, and not until she starts being honest.

[OS2]

Thanks LH19 and sandi2. She has offered transparency but I haven't checked yet (I know, stupid I should have but just figured if she was hiding something she'd be clean when she just moved back in anyway). Because I found out by snooping I've tried to not do that. She hasn't moved everything back in yet and went to talk to her mum last night who knows about OM. She came back in floods of tears which made me think she'd chatted with OM over messages and her mum and decided to end it. She mentioned her mum had said "she was doing the right thing". Only thing I can think of that would get her that upset - she couldn't hide how upset she was. I remember Steve85 above saying how much it hurts when your W is mourning the loss of OM. I thought she was doing that last night, yep, hurts. This morning she went out and then said she isn't sure about the M anymore and whether it would be "kinder to let me go". I now think she wants me but doesn't want to lose him rather than the other way round.

She's played it all down so much (and continues to play it all down) but I can't see why she isn't wanting to make the M work unless there is something stopping her. This wasn't obvious at first when she moved back - she seemed different. She's been different again last night/today though, like she's opened up to the idea of leaving OM. I find the whole thing so awful though but don't know if I'm reading everything correctly though, so can't call her out on anything. I go from thinking it's all over with OM and rationalising any fears due to classic betrayed spouse being sensitive to thinking it's still going on and reading the signs differently.

Listen, if she had really ended all forms of contact with the OM, she'd be suffering from withdrawals. It usually takes several months just to get through the withdrawals. She can't fall out of love with you, into love with OM, then out of love with him and bounce back into love with you again.

This. Thank you.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am.........but I don't think I am.

I know I've been a bad DB'er but not divulged R details other than transparency, no. The problem is her story is unchanging and a big part of me wants to believe her and help her. The other part is angry/hurt and very sceptical and it changes my approach all the time.

Can I ask for your advice?
- If she is having doubts should I ask her to move out again until she wants to work at M? She says she is struggling to be completely committed. I don't know whether OM is the cause of this or not conclusively, but if she is having doubts should I tell her to go?
- As of last night she has started to show physical interest (despite what she's said!) Either to see what it feels like or because she is trying to figure out what she wants. Should I respond?
- She has suggested moving out for a while to "sort her head out". Should I allow this? I've wondered what this would achieve. I've said it's up to her what she does.
- She's said she wants me to tell her what to do and she'll do it - time away, a week together with 0 contact with anyone. She said she'll try anything, she just wants to get back on track. I thought this might be a good idea, but I don't want to force distance between her and OM. I need to find out more of what's going on I think.
- I believe she is on the turn at giving the M another chance and finding the spark again, but if OM is still in contact that won't happen. Do I just hang tight in the current situation? Do I act affectionate as if I don't suspect what is going on or do I call her out on all this that I think. She will say I'm dreaming it though because I have no proof currently.
- How should I act now?

[LH19]

OS,

Oh boy. You’re going to ask her to move out for like the 5th time? Your statement about allowing her to move out is concerning. At this point I don’t think you should do anything until her actions indicate she’s invested in the marriage. GAL, detach and work on yourself.

[Mumin]

OS, PERSISTENCE. THINK before you act (sometimes for days).

How is she distancing herself from OM? This needs to be very clear and proven through actions.

[OS2]

Unfortunately this has ended in the worst possible way I think. W put her location on FindMyFriends but has been suspiciously going over to her mum's for extended periods of time. I drove past today and found her outside the house with OM dropping her off. She said she will send her parents round to pick up her stuff. I'm quite sure it's over. It's NC for now I think and go and see a L to arrange D.

[LH19]

O,

I’m really sorry. You’re doing the right thing by seeing a lawyer. I’m not sure but I don’t think you have children correct? If not, consider filing. You deserve better.

[OS2]

No children. Thanks, I think you're right.

[sandi2]

She has offered transparency but I haven't checked yet (I know, stupid I should have but just figured if she was hiding something she'd be clean when she just moved back in anyway).

She is deceitful. IDK if she has always been deceitful & manipulative, but she is now. Being back in the house did not flip any switches for her. Apparently, you thought it would. I'm trying hard to tell you not to believe everything she says, and not to trust her. She is not trustworthy, and she has to do the work to get there. It's HER work to do! She can't demand that you just start trusting her again. One of our former champions use to say, "Trust, but verify", which means never take just what she says as the truth. She hasn't made a transformation from waywardness yet. She might......but not as long as you keeping believing her b.s.

Because I found out by snooping I've tried to not do that.

I don't think you should check every day, especially if you can't handle what you might discover. Snooping becomes habit forming, and it's very unhealthy. If she agreed to transparency, then you need to see something that verifies she's being honest. Since you can't trust her word right now, the best bet is to check out the phone......preferably without her watching. Has she given all her passwords? Have you checked bills, in case there is a secret phone she's using? Has she written in her own hand, a letter to OM, stating their affair was the worst mistake she ever made, and for him to never contact her again, b/c she loves her H and wants to save her M? Of course, you would need to have the final read, and make sure you mailed it, not her. This is as "formal" of a breakup with OM as is allowed. There are no last meetings with OM, on the pretense of ending their A. She has to go cold turkey with NC.

There is more that will need to happen, but these are the first basic things. She's going to experience withdrawals, once she finally goes NC, and that will be the true test for her, and she may backslide on the contact, before she makes it. It depends on what you do. You couldn't continue giving her chances, if you know what I mean. One slip up, maybe. Two slip ups? You're done.

She hasn't moved everything back in yet and went to talk to her mum last night who knows about OM. She came back in floods of tears which made me think she'd chatted with OM over messages and her mum and decided to end it.

I bawled like a baby when I ended things, (I didn't send a letter, just went NC cold turkey). I had seen him as my last chance at happiness, so in my mind, my life was over. It was tough, I won't lie. But I did get through the withdrawals, finally, and my H and I are still together. So, she can do it, too. I am here offering help while both of you go through the process. I can't write everything in one post, although Lord knows, I try. That's why you have to continue posting and reading, b/c the hard work hasn't even made a dent yet. It doesn't come overnight, but you can make it!

I remember Steve85 above saying how much it hurts when your W is mourning the loss of OM. I thought she was doing that last night, yep, hurts.

She's been home how many days? Yes, she'll drag around, feeling sorry for herself, and then watch out, b/c the withdrawals hit and she'll want contact with him worse than just about anything in life. That's why it's important for her to work on transparency. Transparency and support from my mentors got me through those times I was so weak. Once you know she's really trying, then you can offer support (and I'll share more about that later), but for now.....you need to wait and verify her activity. Stop swallowing what she says as the truth. Seeing her sad, depressed, etc., is actually a good sign, b/c that's what happens when she's not in contact with OM. As long as she's pretending everything is perfect, (except for sex, of course), she's lying.

This morning she went out and then said she isn't sure about the M anymore and whether it would be "kinder to let me go". I now think she wants me but doesn't want to lose him rather than the other way round.

It's b.s. I said stuff like that, but it wasn't b/c I wanted my H. She's can't desire her H and OM at the same time. Men are wired to have sex with multiple partners. Women are physically capable of multiple partners, but her soul will only desire one man. In other words, she can't be in love with two men at the same time. That's how she is wired. She may be carrying a torch for this other guy, but if you love her and want to save your M, then hang on and give it more time.

She's played it all down so much (and continues to play it all down) but I can't see why she isn't wanting to make the M work unless there is something stopping her. This wasn't obvious at first when she moved back - she seemed different. She's been different again last night/today though, like she's opened up to the idea of leaving OM. I find the whole thing so awful though but don't know if I'm reading everything correctly though, so can't call her out on anything. I go from thinking it's all over with OM and rationalising any fears due to classic betrayed spouse being sensitive to thinking it's still going on and reading the signs differently.

You are listening to her words, instead of hearing what we tell you. Your emotions are all over the place, b/c you are allowing them to make decisions, instead of your brain. (No offense)

The problem is her story is unchanging and a big part of me wants to believe her and help her. The other part is angry/hurt and very sceptical and it changes my approach all the time.

But it's her "story", not necessarily the truth. Are you hearing me when I tell you why there has to be a transparency plan in place?

- If she is having doubts should I ask her to move out again until she wants to work at M? She says she is struggling to be completely committed. I don't know whether OM is the cause of this or not conclusively, but if she is having doubts should I tell her to go?

Of course she has doubts, b/c she is still operating out of her emotions. Commitment is the important thing. That's much more than some guys get when they their WW goes back home. Transparency will eventually tell the story there. Why let her go just b/c she's feeling her first little pane of withdrawals? She's having a rough time, so bear with it a while.

As of last night she has started to show physical interest (despite what she's said!) Either to see what it feels like or because she is trying to figure out what she wants. Should I respond?

She's testing to see if she feels any desire for you, and push feelings for OM aside. It's a cheap shot, IMHO, but it b/c she is so afraid she won't ever feel happy and in-love again. My advice is to tell her you think it would be better to wait a while. I mean, don't be rude or make her feel bad, but she's testing her feelings, and they aren't there yet. Doesn't mean it won't come, so don't get too down and out about what I've shared. I'm telling you the things your W will not tell you, okay? I've been where she is now. It's hard for both spouses.

- She has suggested moving out for a while to "sort her head out". Should I allow this? I've wondered what this would achieve. I've said it's up to her what she does.

My H told me if I moved out, there would be no coming back home again. I think your W may have to be told the same thing. But only if you can hold your word. I KNEW my H wasn't throwing idle words around. Guess what? I didn't leave. She can sort her head just as good at home as anywhere else. This is WW code, meaning she wants to see OM again. Don't agree to it, and if she leaves, then move on with your life. Stop with the back & forth moves.

- She's said she wants me to tell her what to do and she'll do it - time away, a week together with 0 contact with anyone. She said she'll try anything, she just wants to get back on track. I thought this might be a good idea, but I don't want to force distance between her and OM. I need to find out more of what's going on I think.

She is willing, or says she's willing, so that is your clue to step up. I don't suggest you start going to a romantic get away, or anything like that, b/c she doesn't have those romantic feeling right now. Your job is to distract her from OM. Distant them all you can! Plan the evenings to be spent with friends of the marriage (not her leaving with other women for the evening). Just keeping it the two of you every moment may cause her to feel as if she's smothering. Plan on having others over for cookouts, playing board games, or whatever you do when friends are over. Keep the atmosphere light, causal, and incorporate as much fun as possible. Watch funny movies together. Don't watch serious romance stuff, or sad movies. Same thing about the music playing. Of course, you have to kind of judge her mood, and I don't know your personality, but keep things light-hearted as possible. There will be down times, of course, and don't get on her nerves clowning too much.

I don't know if she'd listen to you (it's a thin line right now), or read it for herself if you found the information, but it helped me to learn how being in an affair chemically affects your brain. There are hormones released that has the same initial feelings of falling in love. I can't explain it like the scientific facts, but it has been proven how affairs are addictive. That's why she feels so desperate to see OM......and why she will experience withdrawals. Although I still went had to go through the process, I just kept reminding myself (as well as my mentors reminded me) what was happening and that things would get better. If you google PEAs, I think you can read more about it. I didn't get too bogged down, b/c of all the science terms. Don't know how I would have responded if the it had been my H providing the information. Probably not near as well as coming from my board mentors.

I think it may be best to wait until she's much further along with withdrawals, but sometime in the very near future, you both need to attend MC. I'm talking about with the focus being on healing from an affair, not some everyday counselor that is basically pro-divorce and tells you to go find happiness out there. Both of you need to heal, and have solutions for old and future problems.

- I believe she is on the turn at giving the M another chance and finding the spark again, but if OM is still in contact that won't happen. Do I just hang tight in the current situation? Do I act affectionate as if I don't suspect what is going on or do I call her out on all this that I think. She will say I'm dreaming it though because I have no proof currently.

Well, I think I've already answered this, so I won't repeat it. Don't get too affectionate after going to bed. During the day/evening, you can give her nonsexual touches. Let her get used to the nonsexual, and don't go for more intimate touches right now. Don't act as if you suspect anything, or that you believe every word that comes out of her mouth. Put on your best poker face.

This period is where a couple needs to work on their friendship, for lack of a better word. Don't jump off into deep water, trying to rekindle hot, passionate sex right off the bat. She's not ready, and may not be ready for some time. I hope not too long, for your sake, and for the sake of the MR.

[OS2]

Thank you Sandi2. That's all very good advice, and I would probably be continuing following that if I hadn't found out that W is still seeing OM ^^^. I did need to know though that she's been seeing him in person. She was quite matter of fact about it but of course that was in front of him too so she chose not to spin it for my benefit in front of him. I told her a few days ago that if she was still seeing him etc it would be over, I said I just wouldn't be able to take the idea of her lying so blatantly while we were trying to work things out.

I'm sure I'm right that she tried to leave him a few nights ago and that's why she was in floods of tears. She couldn't sleep so stayed up apparently, presumably messaging him and then most of the next morning. And she didn't seem upset anymore so I figured she had tried but decided it was too difficult. Sandi2 - all of those things you've written above, I can see her trying in all off them but couldn't bring herself to cut him out. It feels too late now to see this as yet another bump in the road back and maybe she'd be able to cut him out a second time.

She's wasted no time sending messages round to a few friends telling them it's over between us. After finding out I've cleared the house of her things and they are waiting to be collected. I'm seeing a L tomorrow. Wonder what the odds are of D papers saving marriages. Or divorced partners getting back together. Slim to none I would have thought. I've thought about it carefully because I appreciate D papers are a final step. I think W may expect me to give her more time to sort her head out and may be shocked when I file.

Sandi2 - do you think I'm handling this in the right way? She's seemed close this last few weeks to finally trying to save the M. She sent me several messages telling me how wonderful she thinks I am, and saying how she doesn't feel good enough to be with me. I feel sorry for W because I think she'll live to regret all this when the mind-altering drug of the A wears off and she realises what she's given up for so little.

[sandi2]

Sandi2 - do you think I'm handling this in the right way? She's seemed close this last few weeks to finally trying to save the M. She sent me several messages telling me how wonderful she thinks I am, and saying how she doesn't feel good enough to be with me. I feel sorry for W because I think she'll live to regret all this when the mind-altering drug of the A wears off and she realises what she's given up for so little.

Frankly, yes I do agree. She's playing games. I'm not going to tell you to divorce her, hoping it will shock senses back into her head. If you file, do it b/c you are done with her messing around. Is there hope of getting back together after a divorce? I honestly have not heard (or remember) of a case involving a wayward W. There was one case that might have made it, but he stopped posting, so not for sure they ever remarried. There have been some cases on the board where the WW would tempt her divorced H, and continue playing games with him. Then he would discover she hadn't changed from her waywardness at all.

For the WW to change, she must suffer some type of personal loss that comes as a result of her waywardness. For me, it was my D discovering my online activity with OM. It destroyed years & years of trying to instill the core values in them....not to mention the religious values my family holds dear. I had always taught my children these standards, and had for the most part, I had lived it. However, I lost that incredible respect from my adult daughter.

I had actually planned to prep my kids by talking to them about having marital problems with their dad, and slowly introduce OM into the picture (classic WW move). That plan was shot down when the day my D told me she knew about OM. Plus, I was actually shocked to realize my family would continue to go forward without me. Let me move off with OM, they would still be together........and, supporting their dad. I'll also add that little things had been working together to cause me to see a few cracks in the fantasy I had built about my future life with OM. So, call it perfect time. My eyes were opened and I could see what I was losing. Now, for some other WW, it might be a different kind of loss......but that was mine. I knew my kids loved me, but their respect was the most important thing in my life, and I lost it b/c of my own actions. Did I immediately change overnight? No,.......I just started seeing reality better, and realizing the damage I was causing myself. You'd think I would have realized the damage I would cause my family, but that's the insane selfishness of a wayward mindset, the WW is so lost in her own fantasy that she can excuse everything away.

Anyway, I had a long, hard process ahead. I struggled with my feelings; was terribly depressed; didn't think I'd ever be happy in my M; went through about six months of affair withdrawals (four months hard withdrawals, two more months that were not quite as bad); and was so full of pride that I actually prayed that God would help me feel remorse for what I had done to my H. The problem was..... I continued to keep the affair alive in my head. I would think about how things may have gone, the should of--could of stuff. Finally, one night I was so terribly depressed and was genuinely praying to have peace. I had to do some deep soul digging. I knew I had not let go of the fantasy and it was keeping the affair alive in my head.........which was preventing me from making progress. (It's the same when a woman has an imaginary affair.) I started thinking that if my H could forgive me, then why couldn't I forgive him for past issues I was so bitter about. The remorse came. The humility came. I was broken by what I had done to the trust we once cherished. It took me nearly two years before I felt any emotional energy to put into my MR. Shocking, isn't it? I tell you this, b/c very few H's can imagine the WW's recovering process. To his logical brain, it seems it should be fairly simple to fix. But he is thinking from the viewpoint of "love". He loves her and he has the desire to work hard on their MR. But, she doesn't have those feelings. Not until she does the work to get herself straightened out and her mindset is healthy again. Not every WW is the same, and the length of time isn't the same. However, I have reason to believe the process is much the same.

[OS2]

Thanks Sandi. When she messaged after I found out W said she feels she "needs to be single for a bit" and "sort her head out". Of course telling her it's over makes me think she's jumped straight into bed with OM if that wasn't already the case. It seems like she was just waiting for me to give up so she could justify it to herself and tell everyone we've broken up. Maybe she wants to date him for a bit and see how she feels? Or maybe she's confused and upset just like I am and just wants to give everything time without each other. I've no idea. My gut says the OM means a lot more to her than she lets on and she's infatuated with him.

She's not picked her stuff up yet, she said it was too emotional. I wonder whether that will drag on now. Should I take it round for her or be prepared to wait a while? In terms of personal loss, the only thing to lose is me and the life we were heading for. She's talked about the future a lot recently - where we might live, children, pets. I think that was her trying to fixate on her rational side, not the confused A emotions. No children to disappoint, her mum knows most of her sitch but not the Ab. I think she will be giving up far more than OM who is single. I've told her we can meet in a few days to talk about what happens next but haven't mentioned D yet. Given what's happened I think it will be inevitable now from my side though, she would just have too much work and sacrifice to make and I don't think she's strong enough. I've not got time to wait around for her to decide what she wants. I sort of wish I'd had this mentality from the beginning. Guess a lot of people say that.

[LH19]

O,

Sorry man but it’s all WW bs she is feeding you. She’s not confused she’s 100 percent sure right now she wants OM. About picking up stuff being too emotional. You tell her it’s in the front yard and she’ll be there to pick it up. Did you talk to your lawyer? I wouldn’t meet with her I would either sit tight or have her served.

[Traveler]

I wouldn’t meet with her I would either sit tight or have her served.

+1. No need to "mention" D in an R talk, hoping for a reaction. If you're not ready for D, sit tight. If you are ready--and that's a consistent feeling everyday for at least a week or two--go ahead and serve her. There's often the urge to "do something", even when the only identified actions are harmful.

Sorry this is happening to you. Sounds like a hard week.

[sandi2]

When she messaged after I found out W said she feels she "needs to be single for a bit" and "sort her head out".

That's what I mean. She's not ready.

Of course telling her it's over makes me think she's jumped straight into bed with OM if that wasn't already the case. It seems like she was just waiting for me to give up so she could justify it to herself and tell everyone we've broken up.

No, you are thinking like a logical LBH. She didn't have to wait for you to tell her it's over. She didn't need to feel released or given permission to be with another man. She didn't need anything to justify breaking up, b/c she's going to give a false version anyway. People who know you and love you will know the truth. You can't help what she says and thinks, or tells others. She'd do it, regardless.

Maybe she wants to date him for a bit and see how she feels?

Then she needs to divorce. Since when it is right for a spouse to date someone, just to see how it makes her feel? Wrong is wrong, and it would have been the more decent thing for her to give you a divorce, if she wanted to date. See what I mean? If what you say above is true, where does that put you? Any self respecting man is not going to wait on the shelf while his WW is with another man, until she decides which man she wants. B/c the minute her H goes on the shelf, she has no respect for him as a man.

Or maybe she's confused and upset just like I am and just wants to give everything time without each other.

If what you say were true, she wouldn't need to engage in an affair with OM. That's one of the differences between a WAW and the WW. A walk-away W doesn't have another guy in the picture. She doesn't leave b/c she wants more time to see how the affair with OM goes. The WAW might actually take space & time to sort problems out or even her feelings.......but it would not include sorting feelings for another man.

My gut says the OM means a lot more to her than she lets on and she's infatuated with him.

Well, there you go. Yes, she is infatuated, and it gives her those same feelings of freshly falling in love. It's addictive. It's also wrong to pursue it when she's married to you.

She's not picked her stuff up yet, she said it was too emotional. I wonder whether that will drag on now. Should I take it round for her or be prepared to wait a while?

Whatever is less emotional for you. Frankly, I lean toward you getting her stuff out of there. She would drag it on, I think, and yes, she would cry etc, b/c she's a woman. She's closing a chapter in her life, so she gets emotional. Everything the WW does is based on emotions, so the fact she might shed a few tears doesn't mean a lot. I think it might put more strain on you, standing around watching her getting her things, and she'll probably want a good-bye hug. That often confuses the H, but it's all b.s. emotions. She's going to be with her lover, so her tears will be dried as soon as she gets out of the driveway. Sorry, if this is too harsh to hear. I don't want you having any illusions about how she responds.

I've not got time to wait around for her to decide what she wants. I sort of wish I'd had this mentality from the beginning. Guess a lot of people say that.

Yeah, well you know what they say about hindsight.

I realize the majority of my posts are a lot for the LBH newcomer to undertake. I am guilty of trying to feed as much information about WW's as I can, hoping he can avoid some pitfalls. It's all just so bizarre for him, and he struggles to make sense of it.

I'm really sorry she didn't get her eyes opened. I'm more sorry for the pain you've experienced. You know, I may not be the cheerleader type, but my goal & desire is to help by getting the information out there. ((hugs))

[OS2]

Thanks everyone, agree with the comments - you're all right I guess. W wanted this and although at different points along the journey she's thought of coming back she never got over OM and that's why she is where she is. I've found it very useful even though I haven't always followed the advice here very well. Might it have been different if I took a harder line earlier? I don't know but the way she's acted recently has been pretty terrible really. She may come to reason eventually and I feel sorry for her if that's the case because she's lost a good H in me who was willing to look past all her mistakes, cherish her and build the M from scratch. I don't think she'll be able to find anybody quite like what I've been for her.

I realize the majority of my posts are a lot for the LBH newcomer to undertake. I am guilty of trying to feed as much information about WW's as I can, hoping he can avoid some pitfalls. It's all just so bizarre for him, and he struggles to make sense of it.

I'm really sorry she didn't get her eyes opened. I'm more sorry for the pain you've experienced. You know, I may not be the cheerleader type, but my goal & desire is to help by getting the information out there. ((hugs))

Thank you Sandi, your legendary status on this board is well deserved. Thanks for all your advice.

I've told W she needs to pick up her stuff or I'll drop it round which I will do tomorrow. I'll just be pleased it's not in the house anymore to be honest because it makes me sad reminding me of everything that's been thrown away. I expect I'll be posting before too long updating on the D. I'm aiming to be firm, fair and friendly throughout proceedings. We still care about each other on some level so hopefully it will end pleasantly.

[OS2]

So, I moved out all of W's stuff last night and took it round to her parents. W messaged me a few hours before to tell me she would intentionally be out as she would be too emotional. Her parents seemed sad, I tried to hold back the emotion. Once I got back W messaged and said she wanted to see me to talk. I said I didn't think there was anything to talk about but said she could come over if she wanted.

W came over, and started by telling me all the ways I have disappointed her and what she's found difficult over the last few weeks. A lot of distorted logic and over-actions to things I've recently said which I think may have just been excuses in her head for how she's acted. But then she broke down and said she doesn't want a D and doesn't think she can live without me. It all came out that she has strong feelings for OM, feels like she is infatuated and has seen him a few times over the last few months, including being intimate and is in contact a lot (which I presumed to be the case). Said she has broken it off with OM 3 times already including Sunday when she came home upset. We talked about all the usual A characteristics - "he understands me", "I'm different around him", "spark was gone" etc. I said that was all pretty usual. She said she thinks about me all the time when she's with OM. Essentially she said she is trapped and needs help and support and that she isn't strong enough. I validated. She said a few times she was shocked at how much I understood her, the situation and how understanding I was. Turns out I was right about nearly all of it, even at a deeper level as to precisely what the A gave her. She said she didn't want to tell me the extent of her feelings in an attempt to minimise the damage. OM wants a relationship with her I think but has apparently let her go without chasing previously.

She said after I found out she thought she might be best letting me go and trying to be single for a while. I said it was inevitable a relationship with OM would start in that case. She said she doesn't see a future with OM.

I told her since finding out she's been seeing him behind my back I've emotionally checked out of the relationship and have been seeking legal advice. Pictures taken down, her stuff out of the house, taken off my W ring. I told her I would think about what she had said.

She also said she would end it permanently with OM. I said if she did that she would need to do it with me involved. She said she would want to do it in person, I said that wouldn't be an option, she agreed. I told her she would have a long road ahead of work to do if she wanted me back and I wasn't sure. She said she thought she wouldn't find it that difficult because she would set her mind to it. She also said she would need to cut large groups of friends out of her life to honestly R which she has never said before and I know are really important to her. That also includes changing gyms and making some major lifestyle changes. She said she can't believe how badly she's treated me and feels she's been very cruel and cold which she didn't think she was capable of. I agreed.

I know it's all "she said" above ^ . I know I'm guilty of this. Believe nothing she says and half of what she does. So I'm sceptical of everything she has said and I know she could just be bouncing off the idea of losing me. I'm not rushing into anything now. She is so changeable day to day (just like I've been) she needs to prove herself over a sustained period before I will consider next steps. In just 1 week she has told me she wants to make it work, then broken it off with OM, then changed her mind, gone out with him, been caught, decided her M was probably over, wondered about dating again and then come crying back.

Sandi - could really do with your help here! Living separately, changeable from day to day. It feels like she is on the brink of properly wanting to come back but she still isn't ready yet and has a lot of work to do. I wouldn't be sure how to handle a R. I'm in 2 minds anyway now.

[LH19]

OS,

Looks like you’re a glutton for punishment. I’ll say one word to you. ACTIONS. She needs to contact MC. She needs to get herself into IC. She needs to give you all her passwords for her devices. She needs to draw up the “no contact letter to send to OM.

Only time will tell.

[kto626]

OS2, I feel for you man. I've been reading over your sitch as mine is similar to yours but I'm a few months behind you. I'm also like yup listening to the smart members in the board but it can be hard to implement sometimes.

I will continue to follow you and your sitch. Be strong man. I'm following your lead...

[job]

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Help with WW #3