Link to previous thread:
Core Thread 3Recap: 5 months post BD. W asked to reconcile after 4 months, after I set boundaries. Probably let her back too easy. We are back in limbo however her walls are down, she acts pleasant most of the time. Some disrespect still that I address. Dont think we are really reconciling, rather we live is moderate peace coexisting.
If I believe what W says, she needs space yet wants to stay in our home together for 5 plus more years for the kids. Kids are amazing, Im in IC, and I've completed 3 of my fitness goals. Keeping up with my other goals. Still having trouble focusing at work. Anxiety flares- I know triggers and quit caffeine, alcohol. Recently read attachment theory stuff and think I'm preoccupied/anxious and W is disorganized. A toxic combo. We worked great before kids, so I know we can find a baseline but I believe she needs to take action on her end to get us there if we reconcile.
Good points LH, Green and Cwarrior. CW I hadnt heard that before so it seems attachment styles change and can be changed. Trying to keep the head up and focusing on the kids.
I checked phone records today to see if anything suspicious is going on. One of the weird numbers going to Ws phone stopped. She vehemently denied that this was OM when I brought it up im the past. Weird it stops after our reconcile chat when I mentioned where the number was being masked from. There's another odd number showing up which I didnt let her know I knew about. The problem is I don't know if its for an app or what and cell history wont let me go back far enough to see if it happened before OM.
I ask and checked phone records as Im still confused as to whether we are on a slow reconcile or if shes cake eating. If I take any action to protect myself from her, I risk her going back behind her walls killing the reconcile. If I dont take any action, I may be played for a fool again and at this point would not be willing to work on the M anymore. As we are right now, the kids have two loving cooperative parents at home.
How do I take action? She is so easily hurt and takes everything the wrong way. I'm thinking back to setting a schedule and splitting time with the kids as some have previously suggested yet if I do that after she let down her walls and is open to trusting, wouldnt this just hurt her all over again? Do I sacrifice my romantic life for the kids? I miss touch and intimacy but cherish the kids more than that.
C,
You do nothing.
You can’t control her.
You are not reconciling.
Her walls aren’t down and most likely won’t for a really long time.
Yes you sacrifice for your kids.
Snooping is tricky. Once you know she's cheating, not much point and it can be hurtful (and become compulsive) for you. Sometimes, however, particularly if you think you might be heading in the right direction, "collecting some Intel", as both my DB coach and my MC called it, can be helpful IF you know you can handle it and if you are mindful about how you do it. If that's the case with this phone number, there are cheap online services, "WhoEasy" is one, that will reverse lookup the owners of phone numbers. Note that it will NOT tell you the owner of burner phones.
Please note that I offer the above as a tool, a small tool, that may help provide you some info if you absolutely need it. The gathering of Intel on your wife and checking up on her should not be considered to be a core DB principle (I certainly probably did more than most, but my situation was unique in many ways, and I did not become derailed by it or obsessive of it... It was merely an informational tool.) That said, you have far far far more important things to worry about, all of which have been detailed in your threads here. THOSE are your priority.
C,
You do nothing.
You can’t control her.
You are not reconciling.
Her walls aren’t down and most likely won’t for a really long time.
Yes you sacrifice for your kids.
^^^^ this. Why are you at the mercy of your cheating wife??
HJ-interesting. I tried site and got no results, maybe that proves its a spoofed number. I completely agree theres a number of other things I should focus on, nice 2x4 right there.
LH and Ginger, the thing is, Ive no proof she's cheating now, just a suspicion. The number could be anything, such as a bank texting you to authenticate or a random spam. She's not super careful with her personal info so it could be benign. I dont want to take any drastic action if nothing is actually happening.
She is a way different person now than when I know she was talking to OM and got caught. So either they went underground or she did stop. No clue, I cant trust her and shes rarely been one to open up. Thinking back on our entire relationship, I can think of maybe 3 times she started a relationship chat. Even if I do things right and she wants to come back, I have a feeling she would sit there and watch versus initiate. We could be at that point with her waiting for me to make a move.
If I assume all is on the rebound, keep gal and 180s, the kids can remain raised by their mom and live with both parents. If I stir the pot unnecessarily and we D now, the kids go to daycare, kids get chaos during their critical years and we all live in poverty.
I'd like solid evidence before that kind of risk but dont know how to get it other than asking W to log in to our cell provider site so I can see online texts which I know is a huge DB no, no, as its very controlling, untrusting and shows pursuit.
She makes me dinners, leaves food out for me, helps my friends with issues, asks my opinion on kid stuff, says good night etc...are these crumbs to feed me or signs that shes coming around? I cant have a chat per DB rules so how am I supposed to know as this person is a massive introvert with no initiative. Her childhood was horrible so I get why shes protected. Why risk damaging this person more by me separating time while we could be on the mend?
The last thing, when she had what I'd call a nervous breakdown shortly after she asked to reconcile, as she cried and panicked saying the cause was her fear of us ending up in this place again, I think she was 100% truthful. She seems scared to reconcile and is protecting herself right now. I was no monster and I know that from IC but in her mind and from her damaged childhood, I seem that way to her at this moment. I pictures her almost as if she was our D4 huddling in a closet crying. Are other WASs like this? My focus did shift back to her, after her life challenges, I would feel like a monster implementing tough love. I'd be likened in her mind to her negligent mother or controlling grandfather.
I am so lost with how to DB without damaging my kids mom.
I get so sad thinking about what she went through growing up, and that she found me to protect and cherish her. I thought myself secure at the time but slipped in to anxiety as intimacy diminished. She is a good person at heart, despite her hard life. I made some mistakes which are forgivable for most people but apparently not for her. I don't think she has much control over what she's doing, how she feels and is insecure and in constant fear.
I can't save this person but I want to. She's my W and mother of my two beautiful kids. I cry occasionally just thinking about her sitch from her POV and jaded thinking.
Snooping is tricky. Once you know she's cheating, not much point and it can be hurtful (and become compulsive) for you. Sometimes, however, particularly if you think you might be heading in the right direction, "collecting some Intel", as both my DB coach and my MC called it, can be helpful IF you know you can handle it and if you are mindful about how you do it. If that's the case with this phone number, there are cheap online services, "WhoEasy" is one, that will reverse lookup the owners of phone numbers. Note that it will NOT tell you the owner of burner phones.
Please note that I offer the above as a tool, a small tool, that may help provide you some info if you absolutely need it. The gathering of Intel on your wife and checking up on her should not be considered to be a core DB principle (I certainly probably did more than most, but my situation was unique in many ways, and I did not become derailed by it or obsessive of it... It was merely an informational tool.) That said, you have far far far more important things to worry about, all of which have been detailed in your threads here. THOSE are your priority.
Hoos is dead on here. I was a chronic snooper. Never got me anywhere. It is lose lose proposition. You go into it hoping to find nothing (so that is the best outcome that you can have) and are devastated at the smallest finding. And then it does nothing to change anything.
I get so sad thinking about what she went through growing up, and that she found me to protect and cherish her. I thought myself secure at the time but slipped in to anxiety as intimacy diminished. She is a good person at heart, despite her hard life. I made some mistakes which are forgivable for most people but apparently not for her. I don't think she has much control over what she's doing, how she feels and is insecure and in constant fear.
I can't save this person but I want to. She's my W and mother of my two beautiful kids. I cry occasionally just thinking about her sitch from her POV and jaded thinking.
Remember: When she wants to recommit to the marriage, you will now. When she doesn't you will be confused.
If I assume all is on the rebound
You know what they say about assumptions, right?
That doesn't mean that you stop this:
keep gal and 180s, the kids can remain raised by their mom and live with both parents.
You seem really worked up. Time for some Stop Sign Technique, PMA, and taking control of your mindset.
C,
There is a line that job or cadet post that says “you didn’t break her and you can’t fix her”.
That line couldn’t be more true. I lived your life for a year and a half where we were “reconciling” and everything seemed normal until I would ask where we were at and she would say nothing has changed. She would buy books on divorce and DVR shows about divorce while still making my dinner, cleaning the house and even having sex with me.
What’s going on in their mind is like a perfect storm. Childhood hurts, past hurts from us, midlife transition and it’s a recipe for disaster.
Throw in that you are a control freak and you can’t control this it tears you up inside. Your mind is looking for an answer but there isn’t one. It’s emotionally exhausting everyday.
The only thing I can tell you is that you will survive either way.
Dude... you both need to be in counseling. Seriously. And I mean IC, not MC... at least not yet.
At least a couple of things need to happen before you two could be a happy, intimate, married couple again:
1) You each need to be healthy and "relationship ready".. that means dealing with any individual issues, hang-ups, etc. that you have... and it sounds like she definitely has some. My own wife suffered from self-esteem and body-image issues, as well as some other things (not to mention the affair addiction)...and she was working on those in IC for a while before we started reconciling/piecing in earnest. For my part, I had become, for lack of a better term, a slug. This didn't necessarily require IC, but it did require a significant amount of GAL-ing and 180-ing
2) Attraction/intimacy has to be restored between the two of you. This is a long journey, if it is to ever happen at all. She has to be attracted to you. You can shut down all the affairs in the world and it wont make a bit of difference if she is not attracted to YOU. A certain amount of that you have to leave to fate (or faith, if you are so inclined as I am)-- you can't control her. All you control is you and what you do to make yourself into AMOAFWL-- a process which will serve you well in whatever relationship you eventually end up in. If you do that, you will naturally become more attractive to members of the opposite sex... and hopefully to her. For that to happen, you not only need to BE attractive, but you have to have her respect... women simply cannot feel romantic attachment to a man they do not respect-- and this dynamic has already been discussed repeatedly in your thread (and in mine, and by Sandi2 all over the place). Finally, assuming those pieces start falling into place, you will need the help of a good, pro-marriage, goal-oriented MC. They are not always easy to find, and it is not always easy to know "when" is a good time to start going. A general guideline is when all EMAs have been ended COMPLETELY and both parties are committed to trying to save the MR. There are all sorts of nuances to this last part (counselling) and it is hard to know exactly when to go. In my case, we started going to IC first, and then MC, although my W was still in contact with OM at the time. In my case, my MC convinced me that she could get through to my W and help her recognize and recover from the affair addictiveness.. and I believed her. My MC was also a registered christian sex therapist (yes there is such a thing) and a specialist in intimacy, and was of great help to us in restoring intimacy between us... which is a very, very delicate and uncertain process... and can't come without trust being restored. My MC also had us doing things that were somewhat contrary to sandi2's rules-- going out on dates and such to try to restore our comfort/fun level... and I trusted her on this as well (and my DB coach agreed), and in the long run it was very, very useful.... but still, there was no big breakthrough with us until I discovered her continued contact with Om (he was calling her regularly at work and she went to see him at a gym as a "test" for herself), and walked out on her, telling her we were done and she was to be out of the house by week's end... and then she finally cut all contact for good and forever... And that likely would not have happened but for my extensive GAL-ing and 180-ing which, with the grace of God, made me attractive to her again. It's all connected.
Sorry if this is rambling... I think your situation has similarities to mine, and i think there is hope for your MR... but there is a lot of work for both of you to do, IMO.
Hope this all helps.
Core,
Right now, you seem really confused as to what YOU want. Gentle 2*4, focus on taking this time for yourself and really thinking about what you want in a long term relationship. It seems to me that your WW is at the very least friendly with you. Stop stressing over what she may or may not be doing, and work on your inner focus and strength.
I see a lot of "what is she thinking/feeling" in what you are going through. Believe me, I have been there (and still am a lot of the time). The trick is to stop yourself when you feel those spirals. You can't know how she is feeling, and those feelings probably change from day to day. You DB without damaging your WW by taking all of the thought away from her and putting it on your own self care. She is an adult, with more than enough strength to take care of her own side of the fence. Let her. In the end, you both might be a better (stronger) fit for your kids whether or not you decide to remain in a relationship. ((Core)). I can feel your pain and I know that it will get easier with time and patience.
KG
Kristin is right. You are making it all about her. Poor little broken childhood wanting to save her.... where has this dynamic gotten you?
What does piecing and reconciliation look like to YOU.
She may have stopped the affair. But why? Why do you think she stopped it? Because she was afraid of losing her plan B? Is that why you want to fix this marriage? Even if she stopped it, she’s still mourning it. It’s very hard to go from being infatuated in this guy and totally into you.
She came back for the wrong reasons, quite honestly. She didn’t come back because she truly wants to work on this marriage. She came back because she was going to lose her safety net.
Which is why you gotta keep being the best you, holding your boundaries and stop babying her and working on her emotions. She’s got to be back because you are plan A. Not because she was afraid of losing plan B
I read through all the feedback, thank so many of you for responding. I do think Ginger is right, W came back for the wrong reasons.
Its true I cant fix her but I did want to be together as we grew over the years. Im planning on talking to the wife or emailing a note so its in writing stating I want to separate our time and that Im taking over the room in the house I want. Too late to do this now that we are actually kind to each other or does this seem ok to do? Even after all this, I feel like its mean to have W get less time with the kids and to move to another room. Beta I know but it doesnt feel right. She's an equally hurt, damaged person.
What is your current sleeping arrangement?
Actions not words BTW.
We split time in the MBR and S1s room now 50/50. Since we have a peace, I hate to break it but earning respect seems it may be more important and I see what HJ had to go through to earn it. I actually like the arrangement but Im looking to get respect back of that'll do it.
No advance notice. Just get into bed. If she asks what you are doing just tell her you are sleeping here from now on.
I'd just do it. If she asks what's up, tell her. Not angrily or vindictively. That's the master/ marital bedroom, that's where you want to sleep. (Since she has shown baby-step signs, arguably... Maybe instead of asking her to leave, at this point just leave it open, as if you don't much care-- She's welcome to sleep where she wants. ) That's a bit nuanced but sort of what I did when we were having our first fits and starts.
Note that if there's any sign she's seeing or contacting an OM, then out she goes
Good points.One more thought, she's going to probably ask to split time im the MBR and one of her issues with me is my lack of collaboration/compromise. If she asks to split the room and I dont, I show a bad pattern returning. Unless the compromise is that she can stay in the bed as you mentioned HJ.
If I assume all is on the rebound, keep gal and 180s, the kids can remain raised by their mom and live with both parents. If I stir the pot unnecessarily and we D now, the kids go to daycare, kids get chaos during their critical years and we all live in poverty.
This is my fear. So far my kids have had a good life. I don't want that to change but am prepared for all circumstances.
Yes. As long as far as you know there is no affair then she can stay in the MB too.
Yes. As long as far as you know there is no affair then she can stay in the MB too.
Yes, that is the "compromise". The MBR is the marital bedroom and that is where you are going to sleep. As long as she is "in the marriage" (and that means no affairs and NO contact with OM), she is free to sleep there, too. Or not. Up to her.
Sitch reminds me a little of my own at points... W making noises/indications that she wants to work on MR, has cut (or at least as far as you know) cut contact with OM... but she's still trying to find her way... intimacy still not even close to restored. There's work to do in other areas, obviously, but I think you can take this course of action for now.
And Im going to tell you something, and this is very important... You don't do this (move back into the MBR) by sitting her down and having a "relationship talk" or, really, any kind of talk.. You just do it. Actions speak louder than words and women respect men of action... not one who wants to talk them to death... KWIM?'
If she asks, you, only then do you tell her the situation... and not as a negotiation or as a start to a MR talk but just a statement of how things are going to be:
"This is the master bedroom (or "marital bedroom" if you prefer), this is where i want to sleep"
W: "Well where will I sleep?"
You: "You can sleep wherever you wish." (And I will leave it to you, with the input of others here, if you bring up OM and set a boundary at this point that you will not sleep in the same be with someone who is cheating on you so she is welcome to seep there with you as long as she is remaining faithful to the MR and to you.) In fact, I was always kind of bad at that part and with not saying too much, so others definitely feel free to chime in regarding that aspect of it.
Bottom line though: you just do it without discussing it first with her.
Makes sense HJ. I'm going for it next time it would be her day to take the room.
Dont know where I'd be without this board. I'm feeling confident I'll be ok no matter what, largely in thanks to many of you here. I also wonder if I'm prolonging our misery. We could potentially be D'd by now if we started the process.
Even when I get my mind straight during the day, it comes out in my sleep causing health issues.
Me and her must be complete opposite sides of the anxiety and avoidant dance. Is this any way to live? Sure the kids are comfortable but what about W and I? If I cannot start an R chat, I may never know what she is thinking. With her wanting to live together for a few more years, is she making a slow exit the whole time or working on things? Do avoidants ever even introspect? Will she actually take time to think about this sitch? She made breakfast for just me and her 2 days ago, crumbs maybe or does she really want to reconcile? As Ginger mentioned, if she did want to, it was probably for the wrong reasons.
Focusing back on me, I hate this, my love for her is on its last leg. My love is more than a feeling its a committment and that love is turning black. Thank god I've got the kids.
No advice needed here, I found venting here grounds me.
I think I'm going to ask for the D. I'm sick of limbo, I'm sick of avoiding each other and avoiding the subject, sick of the mixed signals, sick of pretending nothing is wrong for the kids. She has effectively killed just about all the love I had remaining for her, purposely and hurtfully. Maybe thats what she wanted, to wait and ask for space to get me to buy in to her decision.
I woke up today after my S1 stayed in bed with me after a rough night and remembered how nice it is to wake up next to someone whom loves you. Why wait in this h*** and give wife space just for the slight chance that she faces the issue dead on versus her avoidant pattern. Someone said the LBS often can turn in to the WAS. I think that happened, friends. Tell me if I'm wrong here. What's the point of DBing if this woman may never change. The close family she kicked out of her life, she has no remorse for. Doesnt miss them. She's kept the toxic family members and removed those closest to her. Why would she be different with me? I'm tired of being the target for all her problems. I fear I will be no matter if we D or not. Moreso I hope the kids aren't targeted and rather I am the target.
I'm on my last string of hope. My IC says the best thing to do is break DB rules and have an R chat. I know the consensus here is that we disagree but isnt that worth a shot over me agreeing to the D and filing?
I don't know what to do, I am starting to think I want the D more than the M at this point. This is going on 6 months of limbo, the main change being that we are friendly. We're like friendly roommates, not even friendly friends. I'm filling with hate, losing trust of a new R in general. How do I know another woman wont put up a facade for years or change completely after taking or going off a medicine?
C,
For starters you don’t ask for a D you just file.
You can certainly have a relationship chat if that is what you desire. We frown upon it because 99/100 times it doesn’t end the way the LBS hoping for. What are your goals for this talk?
Just so you know a D isn’t going to make all your problems go away. Being divorced with two young kids is going to be difficult.
Why not take this time of limbo and work on yourself and determine what kind of life you want moving forward? If not for you then do it for your children so that someday when you’re older you are able to tell them that yes dad made some mistakes but he tried everything he could to save his and your moms marriage.
I filed after 7 months but I'm not filled with hate. Oh and I didn't ask either I just did it. I have complete peace about my decision, calm, I'm ready. Don't file until you feel good about your decision because filing solves absolutely nothing.
Kas, excellent to hear you have peace with the decision and thats an excellent point, I'm not 100 percent sure yet so I should hold off.
LH, I hear you there. A whole new set of problems will appear. Thing is, Im probably going to face the problems either way, why not face then when I and the kids are younger is my thought. If we stay in this limbo for much longer, what if the kids think this is a normal marriage. There is more things I haven't tried like breaking some DB rules. I guess there's time for it all. I just don't know how long I can be the lovingly detached lighthouse before the light goes out.
C,
You look most newcomers think there that if they keep trying different things that something will snap her out of it. This is what we call the "illusion of action". Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. There is no magic bullet. Time and space are the only thing that works long term.
Your children are too young to notice that anything is going on between you and your W. As long as your not hostile to one another then they will be fine for the time being.
Remember that do nothing is doing something in your situation.
Core I’m of the opinion if you’re going to D it’s better to do it when the kids are young. They could care less about a normal marriage as long as there isn’t screaming fights. I think kids adjust better the younger they are. My kids had the rug pulled out from them right in the middle of high school. Instead of thinking about prom, graduation, and choosing where to go to college they are full of anxiety and sadness. Their grades dropped and their future doesn’t look so bright. Sad because S19 is brilliant (32 on the ACT) and now barely puts in an effort in college.
Core -
With regards to the "illusion of action" analogy and your thoughts on pulling the D trigger-
I have been in limbo for 17 months. I spent the first 5-6 months (before I found this site) flailing and not understanding what was going on, nearly leaving home twice, that's how bad it was. I was an emotional and mental wreck, close to the edge of not wanting to continue on.
The people here speak from experience. They see these situations unfold countless times. Please listen to them. They know what they are talking about.
If you want to have a shot at saving your marriage, if you want to stand, and I think you do - slow down. Please. Realize that your emotions are all over the place, and that making a decision when you are in a highly emotional state might be something you regret later when you have calmed down and the emotion has passed.
Some of the decisions you may have to make will have significant consequences. I highly advise taking time to stop and assess before doing so.
Why not take the time you've been given and work on yourself? D or not, your situation is going to take a long time to resolve.
The pain won't go away overnight. It really is a marathon.
Stay strong
Very true LH and Ironwill, and the illusion of action thing is one of the biggest struggles.
As an example, wife wants space now, after asking to reconcile and is no longer talking of D. So I feel like I should be the H that I want to be or a least act friendly. Is complimenting looks, doing small things like helping with groceries, asking about her day a bad thing at this point or the right thing? If no one is telling her she's pretty, she'll find someone to tell her. Maybe she needs a man of action to take charge and fix our sitch. I gotta do something, the time and space took my love mostly away. If both of us are out of love, there is 0 chance.
Sitting at home at times in the same room not talking would only prove to her that she's making the right choice. If I'm the man I want to be, I'd be happier and maybe more attractive. I'm not saying pursue and get flowers and such but i can't see us going from not chatting and avoiding each other to her suddenly saying "I want to make this work".
Core, you are in a tricky situation, as was I. My W had "Stepped out" but was not completely gone. I, too, had been in a SSM where there was a lot of neglect and where there was not even really friendship anymore. Forget about intimacy, we didn't even really like each other. Talk about a challenge!
The problem is, is that she probably, like most WAWs/WWs, not only has no positive feelings for you, but her feelings/reactions towards you are likely actually negative. As such, it may not be helpful to "pursue" her or do things like initiate touch/intimacy at this point as it may actually tend to drive her away. My own W used to talk about wanting to recoil when I made my first attempts to start touching her. It is a delicate situation. This is why DB-ing teaches detachment and improvement of ones' self until the WAS is ready to come back and attempt reconciliation. You also need to be aware of the "pursuit and distance" dichotomy. We want what we cannot have. Be a little mysterious and dont always be so available. Worried about "sitting around in the same room not saying anything"?... Then get out of the house and go do something fun, for you! You don't even necessarily have to tell her where you are going... I understand you have small children so there are some parental overlays and responsibilities, here, but you can just say "I'm going out"... If she asks where, be elusive. You can tell her when you are coming back (and be punctual), but let her wonder a little... and let her see you cheerful and smiling! don't be somber and sulky. When your W is ready... and at the point she truly wants to commit to saving the MR, you can stop being so mysterious, and start inviting her to come along when you go places... "W, I am going out to grab a bit to eat and have a drink at _____________, would you like to come along?" But you have to be careful... a recovering WAW/WW can be easily spooked. They will show signs of warming up to you but if you come on too strong they will got spooked and shut you out again. Go slowly! Pursuit, Distance! Do what works!
If she IS truly interested in R-ing, and has shown such signs, and you know she is no longer contacting any OM, you have to read the tea leaves a little bit to see where you are. DB-ing is great at coaching you to journal and use trial and error to see what works. Pay attention to what actions/behaviors get a positive response and what ones dont (and, again, the metric here is different if she is wayward-- sometimes doing the RIGHT thing will make a WW angrier and more contrary.) At any rate, confidence is key, as is being gradual and only moving forward when you get a positive response. DB coaching (If it is still available) and IC/MC-ing can be invaluable guides in this regard. Additionally, and it seems kind of cheesy/silly, but the "pick up" community actually has a lot of good insight into attracting women if you cut through the BS and focus on the basics of establishing intimacy. Google "art of touch with women" or "kino" for insight on the progression of touch-- it is ingrained in us and there is a pattern that is natural and applies with most folks. In my own case, it took all of these resources, and the grace of God, for my W and i to re-establish intimacy and attraction. I was first, as the BD really shook me out of my fog and made me realize i still had deep feelings for my W, but my W eventually came around as well... but it was slow. We had to start liking each other first... which meant doing some fun things together, had to re-establish trust (which is crucial for true intimacy) and, of course, had to get comfortable touching each other and being intimate physically (not just sex) again.
Hope this is helpful to you... I would advise you to get some outside support... either DB coaching if it is still available and/or some IC (and MC, when the time comes and your W is willing) with a good, pro-marriage MC (preferably one who is also a sex therapist or specialist in intimacy issues). And don't be afraid to seek out resources on the internet as well, as i have indicated.
My own threads might be useful to you as well, as i do see some similarities with your sitch... but I would note that i myself relied heavily on my outside support/counselors/coaches.
Lol. We just explained to you the illusion of action and right in your next post you say “I gotta do something”.
I wouldn’t strictly compliment her looks but you can certainly compliment her. Her parenting, how clean the house looks etc. Nobody said to sit in the same room and not talk. If you’re giving her space you shouldn’t be in the same room very often.
When she said she wanted to make it work. That is how she felt AT THAT MOMENT. If you are not seeing it in her actions then most likely she doesn’t feel that way anymore.
Uchen early on hung on dearly to his wife’s words only to realize later they didn’t mean anything. How did he realize? When they weren’t congruent with her actions.
You’re new and your learning and will be an expert years down the road.
So glad for you both HJ and LH. Really got me thinking and yes, I've fairly quiet around her, I thought that was DBing. She rarely initiates a chat so I don't either.
We seem to talk more and more each day, not too much about ourselves and a lot about the kids. So I'm glad to see its ok to chat in general if its kept light here. Going to Google the "Art of Touch" you mentioned HJ and read more on your sitch. Besides her touching me once and accidental contact when passing a baby, its been non existant.
I'm still all over the map on what to do and other sites and people have so much different advice.
I am going to IC which is helping a bit personally. She's all for me having R chats with W based on Ws history so it is tough to ignore that advice from him.
You've both rekindled some hope for me here. Physical ailments are setting in from my stress here which is making me want to rush this in either direction.
Core I’m of the opinion if you’re going to D it’s better to do it when the kids are young. They could care less about a normal marriage as long as there isn’t screaming fights. I think kids adjust better the younger they are. My kids had the rug pulled out from them right in the middle of high school. Instead of thinking about prom, graduation, and choosing where to go to college they are full of anxiety and sadness. Their grades dropped and their future doesn’t look so bright. Sad because S19 is brilliant (32 on the ACT) and now barely puts in an effort in college.
This is why I am trying to keep the peace during our in-house separation, I have a teenage daughter and the other one turns 13 soon. They're at an age where a lot can go wrong and they need stability.
C,
Right now with your anxiety you are in flight or fight mode with flight being your dominant emotion. When that happens try to take a walk.
Stay off the other websites and commit and stick with DB. Print of Sandis 37 rules and use them as a guide. There is no quick and easy way out of your situation.
Before you have a relationship talk let’s play it out here on the board. I’m your W, what would you say to me?
When I hit my breaking point, I'm thinking along the lines of:
W,
I no longer wish to continue pretending to be a family for the kids. Living behind closed doors, sleeping in separate rooms. I don't think its healthy for any of us. I believe it is best for us to split up time at home with the kids and start discussing our go forward plan. I think reconciling through counseling and creating a new and better marriage is the best option but its up to both parties to agree and succeed. You asked for D and I want you to be happy. If thats what you want then please let me know and I'll arrange mediation so we can move forward with our lives.
So you’re saying you want a divorce.
When I hit my breaking point, I'm thinking along the lines of:
W,
I no longer wish to continue pretending to be a family for the kids. Living behind closed doors, sleeping in separate rooms. I don't think its healthy for any of us. I believe it is best for us to split up time at home with the kids and start discussing our go forward plan. I think reconciling through counseling and creating a new and better marriage is the best option but its up to both parties to agree and succeed. You asked for D and I want you to be happy. If thats what you want then please let me know and I'll arrange mediation so we can move forward with our lives.
I think that is a great way of letting go. Just make sure you are ready for it. Your thoughts and feelings can and will change. You can go months saying to yourself "Im done... Im not living like this anymore... Im moving on." Then months later, when you are alone, you might still feel the same way, then another month later for a few days, it could change again. Give it time and space. Give yourself and W lots and lots of space. Even if nothing improves, even if you don't talk. YTwo years could go by, you could become a totally different person, and so could W. You just don't know. Either way which way you go, make your peace with it. You deserve an awesome life with or without them.
But if you are at all thinking that reconciliation might be what to ultimately happen, here... YOU NEED TO MOVE BACK INTO THE MBR!!! (And, yes, I am yelling!)
You don't need to be talking her to death with MR talks. If she wants to have one, fine... listen, then validate. If she wants to go to counseling together and seems sincere, then, fine... have MR talks there, as well. If you ABSOLUTELY CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE AND SEE NO HOPE FOR THE MR, then maybe you also have a BRIEF relationship talk, there "I'm done", before bailing (but, honestly, unless you are at the end of your rope and can't stand another day and need to escape I'd leave the filing and hassle and heavy lifting of the D up to her). Any other scenario besides those three and there really is no point to having continued "relationship" talks. If they are not part of a mutually-agreed to and counselor-guided counseling initiative, they are not going to be productive and are even likely to be counter-productive if they advance any further than you listening and validating. It was true for me, it's been true for virtually everyone on here, and it will be true for you as well.
ACTIONS... not words. At least not until you are in MC and she is IN counseling with you and committed to it.
LH - I'm saying I want out of limbo. We've had space since September. Not sure why so little has changed.
IH - Man I teared up like a baby reading that, guess I'm far from ready.
HJ - I'm almost convinced on the bed thing. When I moved out W the first time, she said it was proof Im unpredictable, irrational, dont have control over my emotions and she says I did it to intentionally bother her. Not thinking about her and what affect my actions have on her are one of her reasons she's a WAW, according to her. Wouldnt taking the MBR after we agreed on a 3-4 day transition plan back and forth be disrespectful to her and show I dont care what happens to her?
On one end, I feel like a respectful H would make sure his wife is comfortable. I can see how in some women this could build respect but it also seems like its disregarding the other spouses needs. My W is massively insecure. Strong women may react well to the show of grabbing the MBR back but what about passive women?
C,
Lol. We were supposed to be role playing. That was your Ws response to your relationship talk.
Mine lasted 3.5 years so sorry if I laugh at your 4 months. You need to dig down deep my friend.
Lol LH. Shows how good my memory is right now.
I wouldnt respond, Id make eye contact, raise an eyebrow to see what she says next.
HJ - I'm almost convinced on the bed thing. When I moved out W the first time, she said it was proof Im unpredictable, irrational, dont have control over my emotions and she says I did it to intentionally bother her. Not thinking about her and what affect my actions have on her are one of her reasons she's a WAW, according to her. Wouldnt taking the MBR after we agreed on a 3-4 day transition plan back and forth be disrespectful to her and show I dont care what happens to her?
On one end, I feel like a respectful H would make sure his wife is comfortable. I can see how in some women this could build respect but it also seems like its disregarding the other spouses needs. My W is massively insecure. Strong women may react well to the show of grabbing the MBR back but what about passive women?
Let me ask you a question-- What are you afraid is going to happen, here? She has already stepped away from the marriage. You yourself have said that moving out did not work for you and she herself has told you it did not impress her. I just don't see the downside here of doing what you, as a man and as the one who is interested in saving the marriage, should be doing. And, 2x4 coming: FWIW (though I am not sure how many times you need to hear it from all of us over and over and over) I have not seen, heard, or experienced where it makes a difference whether or not the W is "strong" or "passive". Either way, a strong, decisive, man is attractive and is more likely to get respect from his woman... than ONE WHO RUNS AWAY AND HIDES. Seriously, man, I sense an "avoidance" of your own going on here because you are afraid to do something hard and (potentially) short term unpleasant. I promise you, if handled as we have all suggested here, that is not the case. There is absolutely, positively, 100% no reason on the Good Lord's green earth that you should not be sleeping in that MBR. GET OFF THE POT AND DO IT!!! If you want to have any chance of saving this MR... seriously...
Core,
Jim, just provided you with a great post and some great advice, please heed.
Joejoe
I don't want to hurt her further. That's my hesitation. To clarify, I moved her out previously and thats when she claimed it was disrespectful to her. She's felt disrespected the last few years or our M apparently. I should've never shared the mbr in the first place but I later agreed to splitting it. So if I take it now, I'll go back on my word of agreeing to split time in the room, I'll leave wife to sleep elsewhere after she's communicated that she dislikes it as she feels unimportant. Disregarding her feelings got me in this mess. When we agreed to reconcile, she asked a condition of me that I treat her with respect and as an equal. She's talked of being in the home for 4 more years so there is some committment.
I get the agrument to take the mbr back and I appreciate the patience with talking this through. I dont get how I'd earn more respect than earning disrespect and distrust. I've often done what I think a man should do and W has brought up many of my hard stances as reasons for D or they are resentments she's had. I think her reactions to my hard stances are a reason why I went from confident to insecure over the years. What I'm afraid of is ruining the peace we have, the trust thats come back and putting her back behind her wall by feeling attacked.
Honestly Core taking the MB back or not isn't going to change anything in your relationship with your W. I would say table it for now until you figure out if she's still in an an affair. If she is you absolutely take it back.
So in your last post I noticed again you mentioned your reconciling. What does reconciliation look like to you?
Core,
I'd suggest reading other people's situations too. Get an idea of who did what and how it all unfolded.
I was hesitant to take back my bed too.
My W came back and has been OM free for almost a year now.
Even is she never came back to our marriage it was the right thing to do. She wants out? She can get out and deal with all the sucky consequences from her choice. And the same goes for all our DB ladies whose husbands are being royal pricks. Having a good mindset and PMA will radically change your life.
Ovr-how far in did you take the bed back and what was the reaction? If this was the first few months again, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
LH-reconciling to me means counseling, dates, family time. We are doing family time only. It seems like a false start yet I know with almost certainty that she was serious at one time to reconcile. She can act but not as well as the panic attack days after asking to reconcile.
I've no way of knowing if I'm in a slow reconcile or just being strung along. I see Sandi, HJ, Steves and many more posts in other threads about when the WW truly being ready to reconcile. I don't think I'm there yet not miles away either. Have amy others asked for time after agreeing to recon? Either we are slow or Im a chump. If I'm a chump, I want the mbr. If I'm not, then I want to slowly start flirting to temp check. Problem is avoidant wife means I have to mind read.
Is telling W my boundaries a method to build respect or does that count as an R chat? Next time wife tells me to do something (unless its politely of course) in front of the kids, I plan on telling her that if that happens in the future, I will lose respect for her, I will take me and the kids to another room and I will let the kids know that isn't how a spouse should talk to the other. Is that too much? Is that a boundary or control?
I also dont get how Im supposed to get kids in to school/daycare and signed up if W isnt committed. If we register them, we lose plenty of money and cannot sustain if we D. We mentioned SAHW until both kids are in school...could a WAW/WW need space and stay in their ways that long?
C,
Definitely set boundaries. If she disrespects you in any way politely ask her not to do that anymore. Ex. Core you’re in idiot. Please don’t talk to me that way. But you’re an idiot. This conversation is over and you walk away. Stay consistent with it.
I’ll give you my opinion on what’s going on. Your W probably wants to reconcile because your kids are so young. The problem is she doesn’t have the same feelings with you as she did with the om. She’s not emotionally mature enough to understand why that is the case. So she will play family with you until she gets her next fix or file for divorce. This could go on for years. Again, your best bet is to work on yourself and become AMOAFWL and then at some point you may decide your done.
So as a newbie LBW I tend to stay away from WW/WAW wife posts. LBW and LBH have to behavior similarly but differently due to societal norms as well as gender dynamics me as a LBW would come off as shrill, a controlling b**th, crazy (my favorite of them all) if I assert myself too much or overtly command respect. But you have like 10 guys telling you exactly what you need to do and you just aren't listening and it's honestly painful to read. None of us newbies are good at this 100% of the time. IMHO probably not even 60% of the time. But your exceptions on all of this are insane if you plan to stand.The absolute shortest time period on a turn around on this is 6 months. On average affairs peter out between 6-12 months. But depending on your circumstance a single affair could last years. Also depending on your circumstances she could split from OM and find a new OM immediately after or during who knows. Or have them both. She is not rational and I don't know why you keep behaving as if she is. What you think is disrespect is her laying her sh** bare for you. Doesn't matter if it's true. Doesn't mean it makes sense. Doesn't matter if it's cruel. That's what she's feeling in that exact moment. You don't like it shut it down. But your wasting oportunities to validate her and maybe get to why she thinks that is her truth right now. But most of all you have to stop taking it personally, none of this is about you. It was never about you. No matter what she says it's not about you. For the love of all that is holy say that to yourself like a million times. You don't deserve this. But it hasn't been nor will it ever be about you, stop thinking, acting, proceeding as if it is.
I've no way of knowing if I'm in a slow reconcile or just being strung along. I see Sandi, HJ, Steves and many more posts in other threads about when the WW truly being ready to reconcile. I don't think I'm there yet not miles away either. Have amy others asked for time after agreeing to recon? Either we are slow or Im a chump. If I'm a chump, I want the mbr. If I'm not, then I want to slowly start flirting to temp check. Problem is avoidant wife means I have to mind read.
Umm neither. Just because she said the word reconcile doesn't mean she meant it. All of the vets say reconciling isn't a continuation of the confusion. It's clear in actions and words. Not lip service. Not half hearted attempts to check off the I-did-everything-I-could check boxes. She is neither stringing you a long nor is she reconciling. You guys are firmly in limbo like the lot of us newbies. Limbo isn't stringing along. Stringing along is an intentional act to keep you firmly as an option while pursuing other options. Limbo is them really not knowing what they want and vacillating between hourly, daily, weekly, what ever that particular WS MO is. If she was stringing you along she's being living her other life but making sure she's a huge presence in yours.Making her self known and available but only just enough to keep you chasing. She is in your home. She is fighting with you. She is there with the kids. You aren't being strung along. But she's not reconciling. Stop rushing. I've been dealing with this only a month less than you. I know I don't have a chance of my husband truly making up his mind any time soon. He says he's leaving in April. My H is sleeping with someone else. He's with her 3 days a week. But he's with our family 4. He sleeps under my roof almost every night. There's only ever been 3 nights he hasn't come home. He makes family time. He buys small gifts for me still but won't touch me. In a lot of aspects he's being the husband I wish he had been all along. Absolutely nothing he says or does makes any sense any day ever. Even if he does actually go he's still not going to know what he wants. Because he's not rational. He's a broken toy and has no idea how to fix himself so he's running as fast as he can to a new life. But like your W he's not ready to let go of the old one just yet, because we're in limbo. Just like you. But you have to realize even if she's only half in the marriage means she still in. So you need to either accept where you're at and roll with limbo or make a move that you are willing to see through fruition. You're situation is just as murky as mine. Maybe a bit less touch and go. She might be leaning in more than my H. But she isn't all in. No where near it. And no where in your threads does she give that impression.
Is telling W my boundaries a method to build respect or does that count as an R chat? Next time wife tells me to do something (unless its politely of course) in front of the kids, I plan on telling her that if that happens in the future, I will lose respect for her, I will take me and the kids to another room and I will let the kids know that isn't how a spouse should talk to the other. Is that too much? Is that a boundary or control?
You need to be way more clear about what exactly it is that she's saying to you that you think is so disrespectful because I'm really struggling to understand what's your line for disrespect. How would any of us know what is happening is true disrespect or you blowing the situation out of proportion? Next she's your wife, and a co-parent with you, at the very least your roommate. She is well within her rights to ask or frankly tell you to do things. Trying to dictate how she approaches you seems incredibly controlling. Should she ask you nicely? Yup. But saying "Core do the dishes" isn't out of line. Calling you a punk ** b**ch who can't ever lift a finger around there is disrespect. You guys aren't communicating on the same wave length right now. You two aren't even living in the same reality right now.Your expectations for the kind of communication a loving husband and wife have are really inappropriate for this situation, and are only going to lead to disappointment for you and failure on her part. I also really can't figure out why you think she gives a d*mn that you'd lose respect for her over pretty much anything much less feeling she's being disrespectful to you. If that really mattered do you think she'd be disrespectful in the first place? If she is incredibly unnecessarily rude all you need to say is "Yeah I'm not ok with you talking to me like that. I'll be happy to take out the garbage and pick up the dog crap but I'm not going to be treated like that. You have no reason to speak to me like that. I don't speak to you like that." End of conversation. That's not an R talk. Why would that be an R talk? Next and most importantly your kids are really really little sitting them down and basically saying "mommy's being a big b**ch, that isn't how we talk to each other" is insane. Like completely inappropriate. That is some super passive aggressive using your kids as a pawn messed up stuff. You need to check yourself. Do you have an IC? If you don't you need to get one. You need professional and completely unbiased help here. You need to learn what is age appropriate and what isn't parenting skills. And you need to learn to stop reacting to literally everything. Your kids need one rational, grounded parent. An IC is the best method to address these things to make sure you're there and stay there through this.
I also dont get how Im supposed to get kids in to school/daycare and signed up if W isnt committed. If we register them, we lose plenty of money and cannot sustain if we D. We mentioned SAHW until both kids are in school...could a WAW/WW need space and stay in their ways that long?
Lastly, I don't know what this even means. Your kids lives don't stop because you don't know what the future holds. Get them registered for what they need to be registered for. The courts will figure out the division of cost later if need be. Why are you slowing down or stopping entirely a needed process right now based on a possibility in the future that you have no control over? And yes she could need space and stay in her ways that long. She could be this way the rest of her life. You need to accept that as a possibility sooner than later.
LH- I think you may be right there and I'm sure definitely on point where she may be looking to get the same feelings OM gave her. I'm going to keep nipping disrespect in the bud and keep ok being AMOAFWL. Thanks for keeping up on my sitch.
Wayfarer, On a cell, not sure how to make this look good so adding my stuff in italics below. Thanks for reading on my sitch and sharing your thoughts.
But you have like 10 guys telling you exactly what you need to do and you just aren't listening and it's honestly painful to read. None of us newbies are good at this 100% of the time. IMHO probably not even 60% of the time. But your exceptions on all of this are insane if you plan to stand.
Just this AM W said "can I ask that I sleep in the MBR tonight, its been uncomfortable in the other room and I havent been in the mbr in days." She asked in a polite and a little anxious tone. As an avoidant, she's finally letting me know what she wants and disrupting that openness I don't want to hurt her, despite all shes done. I am going to take the mbr however for the kids sakes, so hopefully neither parent are in their rooms. What you think is disrespect is her laying her sh** bare for you. Doesn't matter if it's true. Doesn't mean it makes sense. Doesn't matter if it's cruel. That's what she's feeling in that exact moment. You don't like it shut it down. But your wasting oportunities to validate her and maybe get to why she thinks that is her truth right now. But most of all you have to stop taking it personally, none of this is about you. It was never about you. No matter what she says it's not about you. For the love of all that is holy say that to yourself like a million times. You don't deserve this. But it hasn't been nor will it ever be about you, stop thinking, acting, proceeding as if it is.
Im avoiding word for word things as this is an open forum. Its not bare open stuff....thats only when I started an R chat in the past. Its business mostly. Am example, in front of the kids she said "Thats stupid" in a dismissive tone when I told her something I wanted to do for the family. D4 told her that it wasnt nice. If a 4 year old sees it as wrong, its messed up. Another example is I told our S1 he couldnt have a toy he saw which was for a friend. I told him I didnt mean for you to see it and I have to take it away. W says, "dont talk to him like that, that is putting blame on him". She does that in front of both kids. My IC agreed on that one that a comment like that needs to occur away from kids. I do like your point. I keep making it about me and the overall issue is her stuff. After reading this boundaries books, I see why she didnt learn them as a kid and has them backwards now. Just because she said the word reconcile doesn't mean she meant it. All of the vets say reconciling isn't a continuation of the confusion. It's clear in actions and words. Not lip service. Not half hearted attempts to check off the I-did-everything-I-could check boxes. She is neither stringing you a long nor is she reconciling. You guys are firmly in limbo like the lot of us newbies. Limbo isn't stringing along. Stringing along is an intentional act to keep you firmly as an option while pursuing other options. Limbo is them really not knowing what they want and vacillating between hourly, daily, weekly, what ever that particular WS MO is. If she was stringing you along she's being living her other life but making sure she's a huge presence in yours.Making her self known and available but only just enough to keep you chasing. She is in your home. She is fighting with you. She is there with the kids. You aren't being strung along. But she's not reconciling. Stop rushing. I've been dealing with this only a month less than you. I know I don't have a chance of my husband truly making up his mind any time soon. He says he's leaving in April. My H is sleeping with someone else. He's with her 3 days a week. But he's with our family 4. He sleeps under my roof almost every night. There's only ever been 3 nights he hasn't come home. He makes family time. He buys small gifts for me still but won't touch me. In a lot of aspects he's being the husband I wish he had been all along. Absolutely nothing he says or does makes any sense any day ever. Even if he does actually go he's still not going to know what he wants. Because he's not rational. He's a broken toy and has no idea how to fix himself so he's running as fast as he can to a new life. But like your W he's not ready to let go of the old one just yet, because we're in limbo. Just like you. But you have to realize even if she's only half in the marriage means she still in. So you need to either accept where you're at and roll with limbo or make a move that you are willing to see through fruition.
I've been reading your sitch since you came here as well and am just appalled at has this happens. I'm sorry you're going through all this as well. The "reconcile" on my end does seem like what you mentioned yet with a slow thaw. OM was removed from all media, I have access to her phone, she asked me to keep up on IC, said she loves me, likes my validating communication etc. Could definitely all be lip service. Actions wise, she followed through on her piece, now texts me seldomly, gets treats for me while grocery shopping.You need to be way more clear about what exactly it is that she's saying to you that you think is so disrespectful because I'm really struggling to understand what's your line for disrespect. How would any of us know what is happening is true disrespect or you blowing the situation out of proportion? Next she's your wife, and a co-parent with you, at the very least your roommate. She is well within her rights to ask or frankly tell you to do things. Trying to dictate how she approaches you seems incredibly controlling. Should she ask you nicely? Yup. But saying "Core do the dishes" isn't out of line. Calling you a punk ** b**ch who can't ever lift a finger around there is disrespect. You guys aren't communicating on the same wave length right now. You two aren't even living in the same reality right now.Your expectations for the kind of communication a loving husband and wife have are really inappropriate for this situation, and are only going to lead to disappointment for you and failure on her part.
Nice 2x4. I am wrapped in an expectation. Honestly I'm looking for respect of at least what you'd give a roommate or friend or even coworker. She is the only one in my live who commands in the way she does. Not even my boss or VP tell to do things without a decent tone, please, thank you or inflection. I also really can't figure out why you think she gives a d*mn that you'd lose respect for her over pretty much anything much less feeling she's being disrespectful to you. If that really mattered do you think she'd be disrespectful in the first place? If she is incredibly unnecessarily rude all you need to say is "Yeah I'm not ok with you talking to me like that. I'll be happy to take out the garbage and pick up the dog crap but I'm not going to be treated like that. You have no reason to speak to me like that. I don't speak to you like that." End of conversation. That's not an R talk. Why would that be an R talk?
I really don't know if she cares about losing respect however she could be so fogged she doesnt know how shes acting. Next and most importantly your kids are really really little sitting them down and basically saying "mommy's being a big b**ch, that isn't how we talk to each other" is insane. Like completely inappropriate. That is some super passive aggressive using your kids as a pawn messed up stuff. You need to check yourself. Do you have an IC? If you don't you need to get one. You need professional and completely unbiased help here. You need to learn what is age appropriate and what isn't parenting skills. And you need to learn to stop reacting to literally everything. Your kids need one rational, grounded parent. An IC is the best method to address these things to make sure you're there and stay there through this.
Exactly the feedback Im looking for. I do not in anyway want to use the kids nor want to be passive aggressive. What I also dont want, is D4 to learn to talk disrespectfully. She watches and copies W. Guess who gets pleases and thank yous and guess who's had to start correcting daughter on how to talk to her father? D4 has started being bossy with me, not with W. Those kids are my pride and joy and I want their heads on right. Thankfully Ive been in IC since about 2 months before BD. Unfortunately bad timing as IC had me getting in to deep stuff and I was more vulnerable but what can you do. W had to BD eventually. Im sure it ate her up daily.I also dont get how Im supposed to get kids in to school/daycare and signed up if W isnt committed. If we register them, we lose plenty of money and cannot sustain if we D. We mentioned SAHW until both kids are in school...could a WAW/WW need space and stay in their ways that long?
Lastly, I don't know what this even means. Your kids lives don't stop because you don't know what the future holds. Get them registered for what they need to be registered for. The courts will figure out the division of cost later if need be. Why are you slowing down or stopping entirely a needed process right now based on a possibility in the future that you have no control over? And yes she could need space and stay in her ways that long. She could be this way the rest of her life. You need to accept that as a possibility sooner than later.
First born girls get bossy. And bossy is what we now call leadership skills. Do not metaphorical beat that out of your daughter because your W has an attitude problem. All behavior isn’t modeling after their parents. If that were true not one well adjusted person would’ve come from a home of abusers or addicts and I know many. You and W need to get into a co parenting class like tomorrow. If you D and how you two behave comes up you’re going to be court ordered one. It’s not healthy for her to constantly undermine you. And it’s not healthy for you to be constantly assume every word, every action, every breath your W takes us some how effecting your children to the point where it will mold their behavior and world view permanently. You make huge assumptions and like you’re unrealistic expectations you have to stop. Everything doesn’t mean something deeper. Sometimes things are exactly as they appear to be.
As far as schooling please re-read what I wrote above. Your kids lives don’t stop because your future is open ended. How do you think homeschooling is going to go when you 2 can barely parent together? Your marriage is dangling by a thread so you think because there’s a possibility of D in the future you should definitely add the extra stressor of homeschooling a 4 yo with a 1 year old running around? Also eliminating the socialization she needs to develop good social and interpersonal skills. And giving her the opportunity to not be in the middle of the hot mess that is your household right now for a few hours 5 days a week. My daughter has gone to a private school her whole life. When I was with her dad. When I wasn’t. When we joined households with my H. And if he goes she will still be in her private high school. You make it work or you figure it out an alternative solution when it’s time. You are making decisions based on an outcome that hasn’t even happened. You cross bridges when you get to them not 5 miles down the road.
I’m sorry I’m being aggressive with you but you talk the way my thoughts are when I have zero control over my anxiety and it’s frustrating to me. I think you are still very much in crisis mode with your sitch. You gotta start dealing with your anxiety. You have to start detaching. And you have to slow down. Stop getting 5 miles ahead. If you have to hyper focus on something focus on you in the place you’re in right now. Not the infinite amount of possible future scenarios you could find yourself in.
The other thing about the kids, and it may be one of the reasons you are "here"in the first place: You don't always need to put the kids first. In fact, in most cases, at least when the MR is healthy, you are going to want to put the MR first. My pastor has put it best on more than one occasion: "When the plane is going down and the oxygen masks drop, they don't tell you to put the mask on your kids first... they tell you to put the mask on yourself, because you can't help anyone else if you're dead. It's similar with marriage... If you don't have a healthy marriage, your children are missing out on the most important model for behavior and relationships that they will have during their formative years... The best gift you can give your kids is a hot marriage."
Now, how does that translate when the MR is on the rocks? Obviously the calculus changes a bit... but not completely. Obviously, you need to do your best to maintain a sense of normalcy for the kids, and not "drag them into it".... but if your ultimate goal is reconciliation, if the MR is salvageable (and i think yours just may be... I see similarities to my own) in that case you need to give some priority to 1) yourself and 2) your MR. You can't sacrifice everything and drop everything and heroically give up everything "for the kids." That lie has taken hold in so so many households, that it is a major contributor to the death of marriages.Yes, they are your kids and yes you need to take care of them, but wayfarer is right: You are thinking five steps ahead about things that might not even happen... when you have immediate issues with you and with your MR that need to be addressed and which are much more fundamental. My W and I fell into the "rescue the children at all costs" trap, and it was a significant contributor to the downfall of our marriage and the loss of intimacy... we didn't take the time to nurture each other and the relationship, to make time for dates and fun even when the kids were on the needy side. It is an easy trap to fall into it, particularly when you have special needs children, as we did. But you have to find a way. In the long run, you will do your children more good by being a healthy, strong, complete parent, (and, if possible, have a healthy, strong, complete, marrriage) than you will by constantly giving up everything you have and that you are to meet every need real and imagined. What you need, is balance.
It sounds selfish but you need to take care of you and, if it is to continue, your MR
Ovr-how far in did you take the bed back and what was the reaction? If this was the first few months again, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
Month 3. Sleep in your bed. I got tired of the guest bedroom.
Have amy others asked for time after agreeing to recon?
If she knew, you'd know. Just do your thing.
Is telling W my boundaries a method to build respect or does that count as an R chat?
"Boundaries"...I'm starting to hate that word. I like to get out of my head and not talk like a counselor, so let me put it this way: if someone is mistreating you, you choose to engage or not engage. Don't engage. Walk away, however that looks.
a controlling b**th, crazy (my favorite of them all) if I assert myself too much or overtly command respect.
Hahaha so true...Men, we are so sensitive...
DB Basics:
Drop Expectations
No Mind Reading
GAL
180s
Don't believe anything you hear
Detach (zen master)
Read these every day.
The other thing about the kids, and it may be one of the reasons you are "here"in the first place: You don't always need to put the kids first. In fact, in most cases, at least when the MR is healthy, you are going to want to put the MR first.
Preach on.
First born girls get bossy. And bossy is what we now call leadership skills. Do not metaphorical beat that out of your daughter because your W has an attitude problem. All behavior isn’t modeling after their parents. If that were true not one well adjusted person would’ve come from a home of abusers or addicts and I know many. You and W need to get into a co parenting class like tomorrow. If you D and how you two behave comes up you’re going to be court ordered one. It’s not healthy for her to constantly undermine you. And it’s not healthy for you to be constantly assume every word, every action, every breath your W takes us some how effecting your children to the point where it will mold their behavior and world view permanently. You make huge assumptions and like you’re unrealistic expectations you have to stop. Everything doesn’t mean something deeper. Sometimes things are exactly as they appear to be.
The bossiness isn't bothersome at all, she's great with her brother and other kids. What I'm getting at is that she talks to my W respectfully yet less so with me. As far as a class or counseling, I tried. Early on after BD, I asked her to go to counseling to work on the M or to guide us through the D and help us get the kids through it. I've read three parenting books myself. W said she never needed to read up or go to counseling as she knew more than the books from experience when she babysat kids occassionally.
Trust me, I dont think everything W does is going to shape the kids one way or another. The line crossing is how she treats me in front of them. I think she is an excellent mother and the kids are incredible largely due to efforts from us both. As far as things she says not meaning something deeper...they do unfortunately and thats had my head messed up. She has openly admitted to saying things with another meaning. I rarely know what she wants, even after probing. Then my probing inquiries are labeled as anxiety. Sometimes a week later or months later...or years later she'll say what she really meant. It's been confusing.
I'm sorry I’m being aggressive with you but you talk the way my thoughts are when I have zero control over my anxiety and it’s frustrating to me. I think you are still very much in crisis mode with your sitch. You gotta start dealing with your anxiety. You have to start detaching. And you have to slow down. Stop getting 5 miles ahead. If you have to hyper focus on something focus on you in the place you’re in right now. Not the infinite amount of possible future scenarios you could find yourself in.
Easier for us with anxiety to recognize it in each other. I usually post here during anxious episodes so it definitely comes out here. I'm just tired Wayfarer. Not crisis mode but tired of it. Even before BD, I was getting to my limit of Ws criticism, judgements, not just ignoring my love languages and telling me I'm wrong for having my styles, tired of her bossiness, lack of trying, etc. Its hard to fight for the M when Im already wounded.
The other thing about the kids, and it may be one of the reasons you are "here"in the first place: You don't always need to put the kids first.
100% this. W and I were both guilty of this. I've seen how we both tried to get time with each other but in the wrong ways. Typical, "I need physical intimacy to be emotional", "I need emotional to be physical". At the end of the day with both kids being poor sleepers, we broke and turned on each other. Took D4 2.5 years before sleeping through a nighr and shortly after, new baby sleep loss amplified. Not blaming them, W and I could've asked for help.
Now, how does that translate when the MR is on the rocks? Obviously the calculus changes a bit... but not completely. Obviously, you need to do your best to obttain a sense of normalcy for the kids, and not "drag them into it".... but if your ultimate goal is reconciliation, if the MR is salvageable (and i think yours just may be... I see similarities to my own) in that case you need to give some priority to 1) yourself and 2) your MR. You can't sacrifice everything and drop everything and heroically give up everything "for the kids." That lie has taken hold in so so many households, that it is a major contributor to the death of marriages.Yes, they are your kids and yes you need to take care of them, but wayfarer is right: You are thinking five steps ahead about things that might not even happen... when you have immediate issues with you and with your MR that need to be addressed and which are much more fundamental.
I like how you said this and I agree. Focus 1 is me, focus 2 would be the MR if W comes around and if I dont turn WAS.
My W and I fell into the "rescue the children at all costs" trap, and it was a significant contributor to the downfall of our marriage and the loss of intimacy... we didn't take the time to nurture each other and the relationship, to make time for dates and fun even when the kids were on the needy side. It is an easy trap to fall into it, particularly when you have special needs children, as we did. But you have to find a way. In the long run, you will do your children more good by being a healthy, strong, complete parent, (and, if possible, have a healthy, strong, complete, marrriage) than you will by constantly giving up everything you have and that you are to meet every need real and imagined. What you need, is balance.
It sounds selfish but you need to take care of you and, if it is to continue, your MR
Easy to get lost in the shuffle with kids, isnt it? You give me hope as you and W got through it. I told myself "this is all temporary. Once kids are a little older, we'll date, take a vacation. Bring back intimacy". We waited too long, forgot our ways. Most other sitches happen when kids are older, I never even fathomed a D with kids so young.
Ovr-how far in did you take the bed back and what was the reaction? If this was the first few months again, I'd take it in a heartbeat.
Month 3. Sleep in your bed. I got tired of the guest bedroom.
Have amy others asked for time after agreeing to recon?
If she knew, you'd know. Just do your thing.
"Boundaries"...I'm starting to hate that word. I like to get out of my head and not talk like a counselor, so let me put it this way: if someone is mistreating you, you choose to engage or not engage. Don't engage. Walk away, however that looks.
DB Basics:
Drop Expectations
No Mind Reading
GAL
180s
Don't believe anything you hear
Detach (zen master)
Read these every day.
Good feedback, as many things, it looks like I'm over thinking boundaries and also continue mind reading.
So a couple nights ago I took mbr back. It pushed W to tears as it came off as me being dismissive of her feelings and more of the same from me, from her perspective. I knew this was a bad move for my sitch, I should've held off. I think mine is similar but was different than others here. I have a feeling this set back or reset any progress made. W feels horrible, and I feel horrible for making her feel that way.
In the middle of trying to save my M, I make W cry thinking I haven't changed, all over a bed. She feels like it was disrespectful which I did think would happen if I just took the bed. Wish I didnt make the move. W and I can't gain respect for each other if she feels disrespected. Now she'll likely be more disrespectful on top of hurting.
I see this sitch taking a long time if it ever comes around and now I dont know what to do with the bed situation. What matters is I already hurt her feelings so if we make new arrangements, the damage is done.
How is this a good thing? Did this happen to others? I feel really bad for W. All she wanted was a discussion over the sleeping arrangements, not a take over.
C,
There is not one thing that you are going to do or not do that is going to change your situation around. Did you let her know that you weren’t telling her she couldn’t sleep there also? If where she is sleeping is so bad and she’s not willing to share a bed with you then that means she’s very checked out or she’s messaging om at night.
This isn’t going to change the outcome of your sitch. You are taking the stance that you are working on yourself and you are not putting your life on hold or inconveniencing yourself while she figures her [censored] out.
Yes it’s going take a really long time. Most likely years and it will start when she’s OM free, goes through withdrawals and decides she wants to commit to the marriage.
Core,
No matter what you do or don't do, she's going to feel disrespected. Here's the thing, she's living a very comfortable life right now and is still in contact w/the OM. Until you rock the boat a bit, she's not going to come to realize that what she's doing is very wrong and there are consequences to her actions. Taking back the master bedroom bed is not a bad thing. She is the one that is dissatisfied w/the marriage, therefore, she should be the one to find accommodations elsewhere in the home. Listen, you can't "nice" her back into the relationship.
Bottom line, in order to get respect from others, you need to respect yourself and what you stand for. Continue working on yourself and if she's not happy about what you are doing, then she will need to reassess what she wants to do. My advice, get some boxes of tissues and leave them around the house. Your wife will either get it together or she won't...but that is not your problem...it is her problem. Your problem is that you are attempting to nice her back into the marriage and are not happy w/the outcome of what you did. Trust me, when she sees that you are taking back the control over your life and focusing on you, she will begin to get curious.
Until the OM is out of the picture, she's going to be bouncing all over the place. Remember...she fired you as a husband. You are now a roommate under the same roof w/her. You didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. You can't control her actions and/or her feelings, but you can control how you react to her behavior. When she's boo hooing about something, just say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and walk away
Yes, it could very well take years for this issue to resolve itself. Dig deeper for patience and know that we are here for you. If and when the time comes, you will know whether to continue standing or not.
^^^^^* I couldn’t have said it better myself ^^^^^^
Excellent points. Glad to have the responses as the event started some R chats, not initiated by me. I don't know what to make of it. Overall, W feels Ive emotionally abused her and feels like coming back to me could be a mistake and be no different than others shes known who return to abusers only to repeat issues. I know Im not one but the problem is how she feels. She admitted that what she did was wrong and correctly admitted it was an affair. She says the OM has been out of the picture and Im starting to believe.
She stated, how can she have any respect for herself if she came back to an abuser and after what she did. I validated and let her know others work through issues that are similar. She is sleeping on a pull out futon for now, and is uncomfortable sharing our mbr. She asked why I took the mbr several times in several ways, I told her its for S1, and my own self respect along with being what I think is best for the family.
Our R chat provided some clarity yet we both left it with the root unanswered obviously. The blame is mostly on me, a horrendous abuser/monster who has made mistakes but nothing serious. I ran examples of what W said is abuse by my IC today who confirms its not abuse. W internalizes it as such but no abuse.
For the first time since BD, W asked for a family outing. I agreed and we got some burgers and took the kids to a carousel. W asked to be the chauffeur and take her car which has only happened once or twice. Not sure what to make of that or any of this. I think she feels powerless yet doesnt realize by holding D over the families head that she has most of the power. I still dont understand how she doesnt see her ownership in this. Some people never do I suppose.
Thanks for listening and any input is appreciated.
I have a question and I do hope you or the readers will not take it the wrong way...but...was your wife abused or someone in her family abused and she stood by and watched and couldn't do anything about it?
Her perception of abuse puzzles me because if the IC says it isn't abuse and yet she keeps saying it is, then there has to be an underlying problem from her childhood that is creating the "abuse" perception.
Without putting too much of her history out here in case it ties to either of us, I will say she had a less than ideal upbringing. Way, way, worse than my own which was pretty normal (I think) and I seem to be in shambles. I dont know how she had the strength to become the W I knew before BD.
For job and Core, both-- I think it is a standard WW thing to accuse their husbands of mistreatment and abuse to justify their own behavior and affairs. I know my W, in the throes of her own waywardness and affairs, did just that.
My WW was not abused in any way as a child, nor even as a young adult or collegian and nor did she change her tune when the "MeToo" movement came along. In fact, she's made it a point to tell me on a couple of occasions that she had sexual encounters on two occasions that involved excess drinking and which, these days, would probably have supported a claim of abuse/rape/etc... but she said although in both cases she had "regrets" or "some guilt", in neither case did she feel "victimized"... She's said she was a big girl and made her own decisions and, drunk or not, she was open to a sexual encounter and had one. Strong woman. And I say all that not to say that other women similarly situated are "wrong", but to emphasize that my W has a pretty high bar for "abuse" and, yet, she termed my role in the downfall of our MR as "abuse" on more than one occasion while she was still wayward, even once in front of our MC... who quickly corrected her.
I think it's just a WW thing.
And I would qualify what I just posted above by adding that whatever difficult issues from her past that she is dealing with, whether it is abuse, or self-esteem issues, or whatever, that she should work through them with an individual counselor. Every significant thing that has happened to us in our past, including both traumatic episodes as well as happily memorable ones, shape Who We are, and can impact how we relate to other people, including and even especially in our marriages. I remember my own very excellent IC/MC putting both my wife and I through an exercise to identify these issues and how they impacted our marriage. It was extremely thought-provoking and helpful both for her in terms of counseling and guiding us, and for my wife and I in terms of better understanding each other.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, if there is actually abuse in her past, or even a particularly unhappy childhood, she's going to have to address that and work through it, in all likelihood, for you guys to have the best chance of reconciling your marriage, if that is to happen
I agree HJ. I think we both need IC and MC for any long term chance of this working. Much to my demise I'm sure, I did ask her to consider IC a few times during our M. She blamed me for her issues at the time, defensively. I should've seen this all coming. She has some experiences I don't think she will face and I won't be the first person cut from her life for crossing an invisible line.
Something you said here or I read elsewhere clicked with me today, or maybe I'm having a good day....I finally feel free from her control and finally feel like Im focusing on me. I thought I was before but it feels different now. I seem to not care about the outcome, I know I'll be ok either way. If we work it out and she comes back to the M on my conditions then it may be a better M than it was before. If we D, I'll do my best to find someone secure, who treats me well from the heart and not because they expect a certain outcome. Im excited for my future yet I know there is much more pain to come.
So a couple nights ago I took mbr back. It pushed W to tears as it came off as me being dismissive of her feelings and more of the same from me, from her perspective. I knew this was a bad move for my sitch, I should've held off. I think mine is similar but was different than others here. I have a feeling this set back or reset any progress made. W feels horrible, and I feel horrible for making her feel that way.
In the middle of trying to save my M, I make W cry thinking I haven't changed, all over a bed. She feels like it was disrespectful which I did think would happen if I just took the bed. Wish I didnt make the move. W and I can't gain respect for each other if she feels disrespected. Now she'll likely be more disrespectful on top of hurting.
I see this sitch taking a long time if it ever comes around and now I dont know what to do with the bed situation. What matters is I already hurt her feelings so if we make new arrangements, the damage is done.
How is this a good thing? Did this happen to others? I feel really bad for W. All she wanted was a discussion over the sleeping arrangements, not a take over.
Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. I firmly believe taking the MBR was the right thing to do in your situation. All the crying and what not is to make you feel bad so she can get what she wants. It always blows my mind when I read about a WW accusing the LBS of being disrespectful for taking the MBR when they're out there screwing other people. Like that's totally acceptable behavior...
It always blows my mind when I read about a WW accusing the LBS of being disrespectful for taking the MBR when they're out there screwing other people. Like that's totally acceptable behavior...
^^^Perspective.
Seriously.
And I hope you didn't let it turn into a R conversation. No reason it should have. Straight, simple, to the point.
^^what HJ said.
It eventually turned in to one when she initiated. WW initiated R chats are ok per DB history, correct? Its not one I initiated, and it was a long one. A little bit more detail in it, 3-4 of my posts back. I think it gave me the clarity to move on, wondering the same for her as she's more normal after. A bad thing as I still choose the M and Im nearly checked out myself.
What are thoughts on Valentines day? Im going to be home with the kids and W. Thinking of nothing personal, maybe something small like candy for all three of them. I agree with others in the past, W and I are definitely not reconciling. I'm sure V day will have her thinking about how great it would be with OM. Maybe one of them will pine enough to contact the other. So definitely nothing romantic.
Sadly, I'm starting to be ok if they get in contact. I'm leaning more towards D than M at this stage. My W has treated me like sh** before and during all this. I'm not sure what I'm fighting for. I'd have no regrets filing. This feeling will change I'm sure but Im sick of her having no accountability for her actions. Little remorse, just guilt.
Definitely give nothing!!! If she is cheating she is not yours and, more importantly, you aren't hers. And that is all you have to say if she is whining about you not getting her something.
You need to detach, that second paragraph is showing me how much you are letting someone else's actions affect your mood. DB basics....
Put your heart into work, GAL, personal growth, your kids. You'll be amazed how you feel better when you take an active role in making your life great again.
You got this Core.
Do you have to be home with the W and kids on VD? I think VD would be a great day to be out GAL instead of hanging around my WW. It keeps you from being around her and letting the holiday or lack thereof bring you down. At the same time, it gives your WW a chance to wonder what you're up to...
And definitely do not get her anything for VD. Something for your kids before you go out to GAL for the evening is nice though...
Do you have to be home with the W and kids on VD? I think VD would be a great day to be out GAL instead of hanging around my WW. It keeps you from being around her and letting the holiday or lack thereof bring you down. At the same time, it gives your WW a chance to wonder what you're up to...
And definitely do not get her anything for VD. Something for your kids before you go out to GAL for the evening is nice though...
Seriously, go out and interact with women somewhere. Not saying to get numbers and start hanging out just go have a good time.
Thanks for the feedback on V day stuff.
Something thats been getting me since she initiated our last R chat. She wants me to communicate anything that will affect her or the kids, such as me changing something in the house, going out without saying where Im going etc. This seems controlling to me. Says she finds it hurtful when I do things without communicating. Also, anything I do has an affect if you think about it.
During our chat, she asked me several times in several ways why I was doing certain things. I answered and explained some. When a WW asks this stuff, am I supposed to just ignore, or what? She inquired in to a bunch of my GAL activities. Not in a loving or curious way though, more hostile, like I am purposely hurting her. Dont know the right word. She still says she doesnt know how she can love me romantically or get her self respect back. She doesnt see thats she's destroying any chance or romance or mystery with her questions and she won't build any controlling me. Do I avoid R chats even if W initiates. If she does, how could we ever possibly R if I avoid them? How can I validate, etc. Also I stopped taking all the blame and pushed back. Maybe invalidating but Im not taking the heat for all this anymore. It's half or more her issue too. I'm wondering if shes a covert narcissist.
Be brief when she asks. Read R2C's responses in other threads.
You're out with friends. She doesn't know who they are. Your GAL activities are hurting her?? I'd ask her why she keeps asking and if she is wanting to go. It will be funny and true.
I'm gonna quote this again for perspective:
It always blows my mind when I read about a WW accusing the LBS of being disrespectful for taking the MBR when they're out there screwing other people. Like that's totally acceptable behavior...
If your W keeps acting "hurt" by your GAL I'd hit her with the truth. She can't be open, honest, or respectful of you but she expects it from you and then some?
Validate and listen to her during the R talks. Keep your emotions and check and your thoughts to yourself for the most part. If you don't know how to validate go read the validation links. Go read the Quotes Threads. Lots of great tips. I like to keep it simple:
"I get that"
"I can see that"
"That would piss me off too!"
"How frustrating"
Don't play the game and try to diagnose her, this world has too many amateur psychiatrists as it is.
Good point Ovr. And yes, she acts hurt that Im doing these things or if I dont communicate it all to her. IC thinks its her trying to control me.
On this V day, I just want to say that this is beyond frustrating. We were decently happy in August. This all seems like absolute overkill and I know Im not perfect but I didnt deserve to be emotionally cheated on. Not playing the victim here, just stating the reality. Now instead of going through the kids wonder years as a family, we get to experience it as a broken unit. This was entirely fixable with counseling yet here we sit with her playing the victim and absorbing no responsibility. We could be going out tonight as a loving couple but instead we're both voided from that due to something fixable. Yet in her attempt to regain her life, she does something that may not be fixable. I'll probably ne permanently damaged knowing my W who had a 1 year old could cheat on me. How can I trust her or a future W again after this? Especially after being on the boards here and reading up elsewhere. What's the point of sharing your heart with someone just to have them leave when the going gets tough? When theres a miscommunication.
Rant over, I cant wait to get out with my kids tonight.
C,
Sorry you are struggling on V-Day.
Yes 95% of problems are fixable when you have both parties on board. Similar to if my Aunt had gonads she would be my Uncle.
There are plenty of available woman who have been through what you have and have the exact same concerns.
This takes a really long time to play out so you have to learn patience.
Hey All,
V day was great with my kids. One for the memory books! W didnt acknowledge V day whatsoever which was expected.
Question, this Friday W had plans to go out and I had plans separately to go swimming. W's friend cancelled due to work and W advised me she'll have someone else go with her unless I want to go.
Passive way of asking....
Anyway, where I was going wasnt important. Should I go or am I in the DB realm where I act busy? We both know what the other was doing as we live together and had to get sitter coverage so saying I have plans already may come as a brush off.
Make me look like a chump to go out with her or do I take the opportunity to go have fun?
Lol if someone told me that, and I quote, " she'll have someone else go with her unless I want to go" I would just laugh and not respond. Or maybe say "You know some people actually want to hang out with me so I think I'll do that as opposed to being your last resort".
If she wants you to go she could ask like a normal adult. This seems like breadcrumbs.
Don't bring up V-day to her either.
Hey All,
V day was great with my kids. One for the memory books! W didnt acknowledge V day whatsoever which was expected.
Question, this Friday W had plans to go out and I had plans separately to go swimming. W's friend cancelled due to work and W advised me she'll have someone else go with her unless I want to go.
Passive way of asking....
Anyway, where I was going wasnt important. Should I go or am I in the DB realm where I act busy? We both know what the other was doing as we live together and had to get sitter coverage so saying I have plans already may come as a brush off.
Make me look like a chump to go out with her or do I take the opportunity to go have fun?
So don't act......be busy! "Sorry I have plans." And then actually go through with the plans you already have (to go swimming).
Remember, when she is interested in coming back, you will know. You won't have to question things. If you have to question things, then you should be DBing!
Also, more than likely, if you do go, Saturday morning you'll feel like crap. A) You will have been her backup plan. B) She will see it as two friends hanging out. Is friends your goal? Or is it being lovers, H and W again?
Good points, thank you both. I see the perspective of me being 2nd or last resort since someone else bailed on her. Going to take my hand at swimming.
Feels like I'm blowing her off. If we are to fix things, can you remind me how is missing a date opportunity good for the goal of saving the M? What if this is her trying? This is the 3rd invite to do something together in the past few weeks and the first that would just be her and I.
She has another friend going so I cant go back on the decision yet I feel like this is a rare chance to get a spark back. Wouldve been the first time alone together in about 2 years.
Do dbers usually avoid completely until they know for sure the spouse is back.
So you wanted to accept being the back up plan? That’s going to bring you closer?
Feels like I'm blowing her off. If we are to fix things, can you remind me how is missing a date opportunity good for the goal of saving the M? What if this is her trying?
As Steve often so aptly says, when she tries you'll know it. It won't be some wimpy half-hearted attempt to get your attention, it'll be a shotgun blast with both barrels.
"W's friend cancelled due to work and W advised me she'll have someone else go with her unless I want to go."
I totally agree with Ovr, that just smacks of sprinkling a few breadcrumbs. Go do your thing. Heck you might even flat tell her "I'm not interested in being your backup plan when your friends can't make your dates. I've got plans. If you want to go out with me then say so, but don't come at me with these half-hearted attempts." Then leave and go do something.
This whole thing is interesting to me. I can't quite suss out if she was passively inviting you to save face or if she was making you her tertiary plan. I say that because that is probably how I'd ask WH to do something. Letting him know I have other options but if he wants to come he can. But you're the LBS here so I don't know if she really gets the option of passively asking and it not being anything but insulting. In either case a "No I already have plans, sorry" isn't blowing her off. You had plans you're keeping them. If she was truly inviting you she gets hurt feelings for a minute and she can invite you to something else in the future. When you pursued her you didn't just try once or twice, right?
I also keep thinking about this in terms of how this would've went down with me and my WH. If he approached me like that I probably would've said "Ok I have no idea what that means. Are you inviting me to go with you or are you letting me know that you'll gladly trade your other plan B for me? Or my favorite of all of the options that if your plan B falls through as well you'll make me plan C?" But I'm an abrupt forward kinda gal. I wouldn't have waited around and pondered what something like that meant. Not every single interaction needs a waiting period of response. Sometimes as the LBS letting things sit so we can stew and overthink is far worse than making them wait with bated breath for a response.
Or my favorite of all of the options that if your plan B falls through as well you'll make me plan C?"
Haha! I had the same thought! "Plan A didn't work out, so I'm going with Plan B, unless you, Mister Plan C, would like to go in place of Plan B. Then I might reconsider." It all just comes off as a bit disrespectful.
Agree with all the responses. Core the fact you've even entertained this clear "thrown a bone" opportunity, tells me that you need to keep working on yourself. You aren't ready for a new R, either with her or someone new.
Sounds like I made the right choice then. Some doubts remain...if she does come back to the M, I dont see it being guns blazing. W is very passive and passive aggressive. An example, I didnt know we were dating in her eyes early on, I thought we were just going out as casual friends. She had just broken up with exbf. Im pretty sure I was her EA and didnt realize it. If I pulled her from that relationship, karma is getting me now though I didnt know I was doing it, if I was.
Wayfarer, I dont know either, besides BD, much of my relationship with W has me guessing at intentions and meaning. When I ask for clarification, I still dont get clarity or am told Im a bad listener. Some assertiveness would go a long way in my book. When I'm assertive with her however Im told i dont take her consideration or Im domineering. I tried switching to passive speech to talk in her language after that and here I am!
Steve, you're right there. Im not ready, and I know Im not. Honestly dont know if I can if this betrayal is never addressed. If we D, im debating short term stuff but Im currently turned off to long term after the horror stories here, my story and the current dating land scape.
What if all WWs dont come back guns blazing. Maybe this one is a dart gun. Shoot either way, I almost have both feet out the door. Im running low on patience. My bday is in March, I bet that gets ignored.
Sounds like I made the right choice then. Some doubts remain...if she does come back to the M, I dont see it being guns blazing. W is very passive and passive aggressive. An example, I didnt know we were dating in her eyes early on, I thought we were just going out as casual friends. She had just broken up with exbf. Im pretty sure I was her EA and didnt realize it. If I pulled her from that relationship, karma is getting me now though I didnt know I was doing it, if I was.
Wayfarer, I dont know either, besides BD, much of my relationship with W has me guessing at intentions and meaning. When I ask for clarification, I still dont get clarity or am told Im a bad listener. Some assertiveness would go a long way in my book. When I'm assertive with her however Im told i dont take her consideration or Im domineering. I tried switching to passive speech to talk in her language after that and here I am!
Steve, you're right there. Im not ready, and I know Im not. Honestly dont know if I can if this betrayal is never addressed. If we D, im debating short term stuff but Im currently turned off to long term after the horror stories here, my story and the current dating land scape.
What if all WWs dont come back guns blazing. Maybe this one is a dart gun. Shoot either way, I almost have both feet out the door. Im running low on patience. My bday is in March, I bet that gets ignored.
Rest assured, when she wants to come back you will know. When she doesn't, you will be confused.
But the start of your R doesn't sound really that healthy. Had communication always been an issue in your MR?
Sounds like I made the right choice then. Some doubts remain...if she does come back to the M, I dont see it being guns blazing. W is very passive and passive aggressive. An example, I didnt know we were dating in her eyes early on, I thought we were just going out as casual friends. She had just broken up with exbf. Im pretty sure I was her EA and didnt realize it. If I pulled her from that relationship, karma is getting me now though I didnt know I was doing it, if I was.
I'm going to address how god awful your communication is in the next answer and just talk about karma for a second here. I was a WW in my first MR. Granted I was super super super young. And my ex is/was an alcoholic and pill popper. Mental health issues. Narcissist. The whole shebang. He was a great time. Because of that I have for a long time thought what I'm dealing with now is karmic retribution. It's not. This is not that. It's not for me and it isn't for you. Let it go.
Wayfarer, I dont know either, besides BD, much of my relationship with W has me guessing at intentions and meaning. When I ask for clarification, I still dont get clarity or am told Im a bad listener. Some assertiveness would go a long way in my book. When I'm assertive with her however Im told i dont take her consideration or Im domineering. I tried switching to passive speech to talk in her language after that and here I am!
Ok there's a huge difference between being aggressive and assertive so let's start with that. "I don't understand what you mean when you say xyz. It sounded like you meant blah, blah, blah, is that right?" is not aggressive. It is assertive. "What is that supposed to mean?" aggressive NOT assertive. She also doesn't get to call you domineering or a bad listener for asking what something means or for clarification if you are asking in the moment. Unless you are actually asking it that way with intonation. OR if you are sitting on things and then going back and asking what something means after the fact that has a whole other connotation to it. And you switching to her language isn't helping anything at all. In the situations we're in most WS are lying the second their mouths open so this isn't a time or place to not only encourage passive language but participate in entire conversations where neither of you are getting to the point. If either of you have any desire to communicate effectively ever you both need to just get to the point.
.
My bday is in March, I bet that gets ignored.
This. My god this. I keep seeing things like this with lots of other newbies. The expectation that your WW is going to act like a loving wife is insane. This kind of expectation sets your W up for failure, and you up for disappointment and subsequently probably anger since you're a dude. Gifts and happy surprises are for loving happily married couples. Are you currently a loving happily married couple? As an LBS your tipping point is your tipping point so if it's your bday by all means you're welcome to that time line. But if the line in the sand your drawing here is her making a huge deal about your birthday, I can tell you right now she's gonna walk right through that line and you've given yourself a self fulfilling prophecy.
What worries me
About you core, is that you want her to back and it is fine that it will be all on her conditions, you will go according to her plan, her moves, her wants and spend a lifetime of eggshell walking . You are so scared to have a voice and wants and needs and have no problem gobbling up breadcrumbs.
Have you even stopped to think about what you want in the M?
But the start of your R doesn't sound really that healthy. Had communication always been an issue in your MR?
The start does seem unhealthy. I'm not helping myself by questioning the beginning of our R. If seeds were planted in bad soil, then that explains some of our problems.
Communication has often been a challenge throughout the M. Clear to see the gaps now in hindsight.
I'm going to address how god awful your communication is in the next answer and just talk about karma for a second here. I was a WW in my first MR. Granted I was super super super young. And my ex is/was an alcoholic and pill popper. Mental health issues. Narcissist. The whole shebang. He was a great time. Because of that I have for a long time thought what I'm dealing with now is karmic retribution. It's not. This is not that. It's not for me and it isn't for you. Let it go.
It does sound like I'm connecting a few dots with the past which don't need to be. As with your first M, what we're dealing with now, likely isnt karma. Its a whole lot of other things but not karma. Knowing what it feels like to have someone have an EA behind my back, I just got to thinking how messed up it was if I was an EA myself. Not fair to me or the past boyfriend. Life isnt fair though and if that was the case, I didnt know or intend to pull her away, if I did at all.
Ok there's a huge difference between being aggressive and assertive so let's start with that. "I don't understand what you mean when you say xyz. It sounded like you meant blah, blah, blah, is that right?" is not aggressive. It is assertive. "What is that supposed to mean?" aggressive NOT assertive. She also doesn't get to call you domineering or a bad listener for asking what something means or for clarification if you are asking in the moment. Unless you are actually asking it that way with intonation. OR if you are sitting on things and then going back and asking what something means after the fact that has a whole other connotation to it. And you switching to her language isn't helping anything at all. In the situations we're in most WS are lying the second their mouths open so this isn't a time or place to not only encourage passive language but participate in entire conversations where neither of you are getting to the point. If either of you have any desire to communicate effectively ever you both need to just get to the point.
Thank you for this. Its been a mind F being told I'm aggressive, etc. My communication as you wrote is more along the line of "When you said ... what did you mean by that?". I wonder if any of my anxiety showing its head during important communications maybe gave off nonverbal or negative tone. Either way, I completely get how passive communication didnt help. I switched that off quickly, it did no one any favors. Heres the other challenge and why counseling would help us...often when I'm assertive and tell her something, she adds a hidden meaning to what I said then believes the supposed hidden meaning. I'd then have to explain and reason sometimes days later that i had no hidden meaning and that what I said was totally misinterpreted.
This. My god this. I keep seeing things like this with lots of other newbies. The expectation that your WW is going to act like a loving wife is insane. This kind of expectation sets your W up for failure, and you up for disappointment and subsequently probably anger since you're a dude. Gifts and happy surprises are for loving happily married couples. Are you currently a loving happily married couple? As an LBS your tipping point is your tipping point so if it's your bday by all means you're welcome to that time line. But if the line in the sand your drawing here is her making a huge deal about your birthday, I can tell you right now she's gonna walk right through that line and you've given yourself a self fulfilling prophecy.
Believe me, I've no big expectations. I dont think its unreasonable to not want a bday ignored. What I expect is her to say Happy Birthday. I know its not healthy to have expectations. Im saying I doubt she'll even say Happy Birthday to me.
What worries me
About you core, is that you want her to back and it is fine that it will be all on her conditions, you will go according to her plan, her moves, her wants and spend a lifetime of eggshell walking . You are so scared to have a voice and wants and needs and have no problem gobbling up breadcrumbs.
Have you even stopped to think about what you want in the M?
Ginger, thank you. I have spent a large amount of time thinking about what I want in the M. Maybe too much. I'll put it out here that I will not go back to the current her or the previous version of her. Things are broken with both and I dont want a BD2. Im not going back if she continues to do no introspection of her own contributions to the end of our M. If she doesnt then I dont see anything changing and our issues from year 3 and on likely to sadly repeat as I was only half of the issue.
It does sound like I'm connecting a few dots with the past which don't need to be. As with your first M, what we're dealing with now, likely isnt karma. Its a whole lot of other things but not karma. Knowing what it feels like to have someone have an EA behind my back, I just got to thinking how messed up it was if I was an EA myself. Not fair to me or the past boyfriend. Life isnt fair though and if that was the case, I didnt know or intend to pull her away, if I did at all.
Even that train of thought is a waste of your time and energy. I've been WW, h3ll I was an AP when I was a WW. I've been all the players in this game at some point in my life. 1) hindsight is 20/20 2) you have no idea whether you would've continued in the EA or not and people who stand on imaginary moral high grounds in hypotheticals usually have it bite them in the rear in the end so I'd avoid saying how you'd have handled things that didn't actually happen. And maybe not waste your time thinking about things that you have literally no idea if they actually happened or not 3) dating and married are not the same thing, maybe dating in excess of 5 or 6 years but dating is not the same as married at all so an EA one is not the same as an EA in the other 4) Life isn't fair and while some AP's are insanely manipulative and can contribute heavily to waywardness, most are just wanting to be loved and following their hearts no matter how misguided. AP's are the least of any one's concern as they should be, including you if you even were.
Thank you for this. Its been a mind F being told I'm aggressive, etc. My communication as you wrote is more along the line of "When you said ... what did you mean by that?". I wonder if any of my anxiety showing its head during important communications maybe gave off nonverbal or negative tone. Either way, I completely get how passive communication didnt help. I switched that off quickly, it did no one any favors. Heres the other challenge and why counseling would help us...often when I'm assertive and tell her something, she adds a hidden meaning to what I said then believes the supposed hidden meaning. I'd then have to explain and reason sometimes days later that i had no hidden meaning and that what I said was totally misinterpreted.
Clearly I don't know your W and I know all of our WS are like on a different planet where their reality doesn't come near actual reality. But if this "misinterpretation" as you're calling it isn't a product of her villianizing you to give herself a justification for what she's doing something is very, very wrong and I don't think MC would be able to help you with this at all. Now there's a huge chance this is just vilification. And to me that's what this feels like. It may just be a nonsensical reason to keep pushing you away. Early on in this my WH went through the litany of reasons why I made him miserable. A few were true. Most weren't. Most weren't even logical and contradictory to something else on the list. Most he couldn't give me concrete examples of, just things he felt. Keep doing your best to not be the person she's trying to believe you are but don't think all her issues are real issues in your MR.
Believe me, I've no big expectations. I dont think its unreasonable to not want a bday ignored. What I expect is her to say Happy Birthday. I know its not healthy to have expectations. Im saying I doubt she'll even say Happy Birthday to me.
She'll say happy birthday. My exH still sends me a happy birthday text and we go months with out speaking. I just don't want you to expect balloons and a card or anything loving.
I got to thinking after your helpful post Wayfarer and did some internet searching and soul searching. I know I cant properly diagnose and none of you can from here however I am 99 percent sure my W is a covert narcissist. Not just based on whats happening since D day but from before. During times of stress and happier times. I am deeply frightened. The dots seem to connect now. Her past, her present, the family she cut out, all her negs, nags, criticism, judging, pointing the finger at me, not apologizing, taking critism as a personal unforgivable attack.
I have many physical and mental symptoms of someone who is a victim of CN. I didnt have this anxiety before M. I had more friends. I was confident, fun and had self love. Before D day I was in pieces, thinking I'm a broken man. I have flaws that Im working on and will continue to. For now though, I feel my W is a step away from getting worse. If I try to D I think she'll scorch earth me or maybe lead me to a false reconciliation. Maybe I'm not thinking clear now but I can't think of many examples to convince myself she isnt a CN. Do all WWs seem like CNs? And I mean like spot on match all criteria? I cant remember many happy moments with her now. I think it was just the love bomb phase. I'm scared friends, now I want the D and I'm afraid to file. What if she files a false charge with the police? What if she turns on the kids after Im gone and she needs a new victim? What will happen to my reputation and respect with friends and family if she starts feeding them lies.
I think to do this, I would need to move out, and lose time with the kids. Miss this golden age just to survive. Moving out in most cases is a bad idea but its better than false accusations. I don't know all, if this is all real, the chances of her getting help are slim. This hurts, this su**s and I feel there is no safe escape.
C,
What you are doing now is called catastrophic thinking (Google it). To answer your question, yes WWs have narsassitic personality traits focused mainly on being selfish. You can't blame your W for losing yourself in the marriage. Time to find that guy again.
LH summed it up succinctly. But just to be clear I wasn’t trying to get you to armchair diagnose your wife. I was trying to get you to understand bending to her every whim about what you’re doing wrong is pointless. You can’t trust that her complaints about you are actually valid. You can validate that she feels that way but if you can look at what she’s saying like this communication issue, or like my house me apparently belittling my WH everyday our entire relationship, and objectively see what they are saying makes no sense you validate and walk away. 1) we can’t fix our MR right now we have to fix ourselves and the WSs need to fix themselves. Eventually if we get in a space to R then we can fix the MR. Why tread water needlessly waiting for the relay, when you could be perfecting your own 500 M. 2) listen to LH. Is LBSs swing just like our lovely WSs. We tend to find center more easily but when looking back at the relationship we tend to first see it with rose colored then a post apocalyptic sh*t storm of Mad Max proportions. As we move through our statges of grief this happens. As WSs throw us a curve ball or a blow up version of a crappy behavior they had prior to BD this happens. Every body here is in crisis. We don’t always behave rationally. The goal though especially if their are kids is to try to find center. Try to be rational. Try to remain the anchor for the family. The kids need one stable adult right now.
Just focus on being the best you and best dad you can be.
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