Almost at 100 posts. On my old thread, so I’m starting a new one. I’m reposting my last post on the old thread so it doesn’t get lost in the shuffle.
Link to old thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2862763&page=1Hi cardinal. Thanks for checking in, I was just coming here to post my update.
Since I last posted, my H has been spending more time here with us, and seeming closer and closer. The today, he texted me the following:
Hi. As you know I want to proceed with the divorce. I am going to drop the financial disclosure off to you tomorrow, and as hard as it is to talk about I am hoping we can discuss things around that. Our progress appointment is next week Tuesday. I want you to know I would never try to take her away from you and I’m not going to leave you hanging financially speaking. I just want to know what I’ll be able to accomplish with regard to affording a place where she can have a space of her own. I’m sorry if this bums you out. It brings up a lot of emotions for me too.
Though I shouldn’t be, I’m completely shocked. I let myself get caught up and got my expectations and hopes up, even as I told myself I wasn’t doing just that. And even though I’m stronger than I was, I’m devastated right now. I really thought there was no way he’d turn away again, it would just be too strange after the way things have been. But here I am. No mention of any of this over the past 2 months, and he hits me with it a week before our court date. As usual, I don’t totally believe him, but I have no choice but to take it at face value and go along with the next steps. I allowed my heart to be broken all over again. I’m so confused and so disappointed in him and in myself.
I don’t know what to do next, except that I need to go along with what comes next, and I need to completely stop the family time and whittle it down to as little contact as possible...? I don’t even know anymore.
I’ve been crying and thinking for hours. I reread the last few pages of my old thread. I think that while I succeeded in bringing H closer and rekindling a bit of what was lost, as Bluwave pointed out, people need to feel the loss to miss something. I think that a few months ago my H couldn’t see any positives and didn’t feel much warmth between us or toward me. That has changed to some degree. I felt, and still feel, that was a very important piece. I measure the success of it by the way our interactions have changed, that he has wanted to be around a lot more, and that he did express wavering about the D.
I think my only option at this point is to do what’s required of me legally, and to now 180 on the family time and friendly stuff. I’ve shown him what we have that’s worth missing, and now it’s time to buckle down and let him (hopefully) miss what we’ve had lately.
Blu- What does that look like? How do I do that without coming across as cold or angry?
I'm so sorry you are hurting. It's natural to have experienced hope again after the changes and conversations with your H over the past few months. Give yourself space to feel your feelings and don't beat yourself up.
I do agree that accepting the D and going forward with it is your best/only option. Working towards completely separating your life with D4 from his life with D4 is probably a good thing to focus on now. You and she are a family, he and she are a family, but you all three are not a family anymore.
With regards to cutting out family time... You could approach it by wanting set some co-parenting boundaries and ask for his input? "This how I'm picturing things being once we are divorced. XYZ. What do you think? I'd love to implement these changes straight away to prepare D4 for the divorce." You could frame it as being for D4's benefit to avoid causing confusion about her family structure and to explain things to her going forward.
The idea being that demonstrating calm, logical cooperation will prevent you coming across cold and angry. What do you reckon?
Hugs.
Hope, I’m so sorry to read this update. I’m sending hugs. I agree with scout—don’t feel bad for feeling hopeful. I read over and over that a D is just a piece of paper, but I know it feels like so much more than that. But I guess it doesn’t change what’s possible in the future, does it?
Thank you both. I’m thinking about your suggestion scout, it’s not a bad one. I’m weighing it against just putting it into action without running it by him.
I’m overwhelmed with sadness, trying to get through work. I’m trying so hard to figure out how I could have been so wrong. It just doesn’t make any sense. His words say no but his actions (until this text) say yes. It feels like H is teetering at a tipping point and defaulting to the onward momentum of the divorce.
I would like to present a strong front when we talk tonight, but I can’t imagine getting through it without crying.
It’s not over til it’s over.
Hi Hope,
Hang in there. This is awful but it is true that at this point the D is just a piece of paper. It doesn't change anything. I agree that distancing yourself and unwinding a lot of the family interactions is important, mostly for your own sake-- so you can heal-- but also to give him the opportunity to feel the loss.
Sandi had a really interesting bit of advice on someone's thread-- maybe Phoenix?-- about how to act with loving detachment. I'll try to round it back up and link in for you-- thought it was really helpful.
Have you responded to him yet? Seems like a good opportunity to be calm and say OK. He's probably expecting you to be sad and disappointed.
HUGS.
Thank you May. I’d love to read sandis advice re: loving detachment, if you have the time to find and post it here
I didn’t respond to H’s text. Later I’m the day D4 wanted to text him (she often uses voice dictation to text whichever of us she isn’t with) so I let her and he responded to her. I reminded him to drop off something he had of D4s that she needed for preschool. Later in the evening he texted me to say he’d dropped it off and where it was and that he hadn’t come in because it was so close to bedtime and didn’t want to disrupt. He added “we’ll talk about things tomorrow ok?”
This was strange because over this entire time, whenever he drops something off for D4 he never comes in if it’s not his day with her. He went out of his way to text this. I think he was fishing for me to respond kindly and be “normal” to assuage his anxiety and guilt. I didn’t respond to that either.
I’m working on gathering my strength and poise for tonight. I’m still not sure what my best approach is, but I’m working on being calm and trying not to cry a lot. Ugh
Hi Hope,
I can't find it-- I think it was on Phoenix's original thread which she deleted (too many identifying details). IIRC, it was about being kind, warm, etc but not letting yourself give a $hit about anything he does-- and meaning it. It was a bit more in depth than the "friendly neighbor" analogy but along those same lines. I might have copied it to my journal-- I'll look.
I'm sure he was fishing. Let him sit with his anxiety.
Try to be calm. Let him go. if you have to, run around the house and scream your head off and let it all out before he gets there so you can be ZEN on him. Things to remember:
You can't control him, you can only control your own reaction; you didn't break him therefore you can't fix him; he needs to get out of his own confusion all by himself. He's a grownup. These are his decisions he's making and there is nothing you can do about it but focus on YOU and your daughter and how you can make the best of what is happening that is within your control.
You can do this. Let us know how it goes.
Thinking of you, Hope! You can do this.
Hang in there. When we had our recent D talk I tried so hard to not cry but I still did anyway. You might too and that’s okay. Sometimes the best thing and the only thing you can do is to let it go. Do not blame yourself for having hope. Hope is what keeps us going.
This is from DnJ and I find his words very wise, maybe it will help you as well-
Hope lives in the realm between fantasy and reality, between expected impossibility and expected certainty. Some look upon hope as weak and remaining stuck. I assure you it is quite the opposite. Seeing the hope within a situation, sees the better possible futures and outcomes. One just needs to place their focus where it should be. I’m pretty sure you know where that is.
This uncoupling is similar to letting go of fear. Fear is easier to see; the links between a potential outcome and the feelings associated with it. Not caused by it - associated with it. You see the potential outcome hasn’t happened, and may never happen. But we are afraid of it, paralyzed by it. Fear is a tangled web of irrational and rational thoughts and feelings. Being accurate when untangling helps immensely.
If that event were to happen - what’s left to fear? It happened. Now it is just a concern and a problem (or not) which one can solve or resolve.
The idea of the possible future event triggers an emotional response. Much like how our spouse’s behaviour and actions do while we struggle to find detachment. That trigger from spouse to uncontrolled emotional response is what one is working on disrupting and basically re-wiring.
Forcing yourself to look at this at a time when your irrational response is not active allows for a different point of view. Much like hope, you can see other possible outcomes. One slowly gains control over their emotional reactions, breaking or uncoupling the event, the trigger, and the response.
Mental assertiveness - sword and shield.
You will find H and your marriage are not even in the equation. And yet the very letting go and growth may well be the very thing that allows a future reconciliation to happen. Counterintuitive.
The unwanted path that all LBS’s were force upon is an incredible opportunity, one that most people will never experience. Walk your journey and find all the blessings that await you.
Thank you both. May, those words helped me a lot. I tried to keep them in my mind.
That was awful. H was very business like, and wanted to discuss finances and custody. We talked about it some, he put out some proposals and I responded. He is now taking the stance that he just wants to get this wrapped up, it’s been dragging on and he just wants to move forward because he feels stuck, and that the only reason this divorce hasn’t progressed at all is because he was procrastinating. He’s pretending the last big talk in November in which he wavered, and the 2 months since just didn’t happen. It’s infuriating and gut wrenching and just so confusing.
I resisted the urge to push to him on it, and didn’t bring up the last big R talk. That was difficult. I mostly just listened and responded, I got a little frustrated a few times but kept it calm. I cried several times, but I kept my composure.
It feels like he’s compartmentalized everything, and seemed cold and business like. At the end he apologized for hurting me and gave me an awkward hug and thanked me for talking.
Right now I’m really struggling with just not addressing the confusion he expressed. It feels so unfair and a bit insane. It’s so painful and incomprehensible. I’m so confused right now. It’s a total mind f***k.
I’m fighting the urge to try to reason with him and convince him and get emotional with him. I won’t do it, of course.
I also remembered that right before (literally hours before) our court date in November, he was being extremely cold and business like, almost angry and aggressive. Afterwards is when he expressed wavering. If nothing else, it’s a reminder to me that he hides all other emotions behind that front.
This allows me to realize that no, I am not crazy and I have not been imagining the way things have been, nor have I imagined the things he said in November. He needs to believe that his feelings about this have always been that he is sure he wants a divorce and that he has not doubted that. He needs to convince himself of that, and that I am delusional for thinking anything else could have been happening.
But that doesn’t mean I need to buy into that false narrative.
hi Hope,
Thinking of you. Hugs. You are NOT crazy. (he might be.) My H has been the same-- all over the map, from "I want a D" to "slow down, there's a world in which the girls never know this happened." I just can't put any belief into what he says, because I don't think HE knows what he wants and the words are just a reflection of the crazy crap that is bouncing around inside his head. I think our Hs sound very similar with the compartmentalizing and justifying of behaviors.
Like Scout said-- don't beat yourself up over how you're feeling. *OF COURSE* you feel that way! Let yourself be in the sadness for awhile-- maybe set a time limit-- and then see if you can put it away for awhile and move on. Maybe just go snuggle your sleeping D. (I do that a lot!! It helps.)
Are you OK with the custody arrangement and finances that he proposed? I might try to focus more there and less on him, if you can.
HopeCA ~
Anger and resentment provide the fuel the WAS needs to exit the MR. Who knows why? Maybe it helps deal with the guilt if you think the other person is delusional. I don't know, and it doesn't matter. It hurts like h3ll to go through it.
"Believe none of what they say and half of what they do." His feelings are alien to you. If his behavior/words/actions ever became consistent, you would then have a window into his feelings. Until then, you don't.
I know it's hard to fight those urges to reason. So sorry you are going through this.
HopeCA - big hugs to you and wanted to let you know that you are not alone. I find myself tearing up as I read your posts especially these last few. I am in a very very similar situation (almost in the identical spot/timeline as Cardinal) I have read your thread. I was just forwarded financial discovery papers a couple days ago and imagine that D will be in my near future. My heart hurts for you because like many on here it is the hope that we hold onto that keeps us strong but it can also be so crippling when our H intentionally or unintentionally (‘cause who knows where their minds are at) can dangle hope with loving behaviour and then yank it just as quickly with heartbreaking words. The signs are very difficult to read because they are so inconsistent...I’m learning that this is why I have to get off of his rollercoaster. My H too is very easy going and will always take the path of least resistance so reading your posts I completely understand how you are feeling. I feel like if I ignore him he will continue to run without looking back, but when I give him attention he doesn’t seem any different. I too am learning how to detach even more. Please take care of yourself and D...Hugs.
Thank you to everyone who posts here and replies to my posts. It does help to feel connected to others who empathize with us. I’ve never been much of a joiner in terms of groups, teams or boards like these, but I get it now. It helps to feel less alone.
Update— I did something that is frowned upon here, not at all DB approved. But, I followed my heart. I sent my H a text that told him how I felt about us and what’s happening and what’s possible, and I asked him on a date. I know, I know. It sounds completely insane and foolish and pathetic etc. But I followed my gut. I got the following response, which is way, way more positive than what I was bracing myself for, and is also vague and confusing:
H: I really appreciate what you’re saying and I think about it a lot. It does feel like things could be good and it has felt nice lately even though I can’t 100% relax, old scars.
I have been struggling really hard with myself and all of my emotions and thoughts about everything. I have been making very conscious efforts not to make any big decisions in this time. I think that having a “date” with you would be dangerous(emotionally) for me. I am in a time of real growth, not drinking, exercising, doing yoga, going to bed early, trying to nurture myself. I feel a bit lost, frail. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
If nothing else, this tells me what I suspected, which is that he is not sure what he wants. That is different than being positive he wants a divorce, so I’ll take it. I am going to use this as a true learning moment for myself. Last time I allowed my hopes and expectations to go way up, and I’ve been suffering a lot these last couple of days. I need to put concerted effort into allowing the positives to exist in a way that I can observe, of course I will hope, but I must MUST temper my expectations of what it means or doesn’t mean, because I have no idea. He is sharing that he is feeling lost and having a hard time. I’m taking that at face value.
And it’s impossible not to be confused by his statement that he’s consciously not making any big decisions right now...I’d call a divorce a pretty big decision. Not sure what to make of that part.
Hi Hope,
Yes, ridiculous to not be making any big decisions right now... you know, except getting divorced. Ha. Ha. Ha.
My guess is he feels it is already in motion so the "decision" would be to actively work to stop it rather than to keep going with the motions.
I think it is good that he is focusing on himself, being healthy, etc. He can't be a good partner to you (either as a H or co-parent) if he is so f***ed up, and so the fact that he is able to recognize this AND open enough to share it back with you seems positive.
Last time I allowed my hopes and expectations to go way up, and I’ve been suffering a lot these last couple of days. I need to put concerted effort into allowing the positives to exist in a way that I can observe, of course I will hope, but I must MUST temper my expectations of what it means or doesn’t mean, because I have no idea.
I also have the hardest time with separating my hopes from expectations. I like how you put that-- allow positives to exist in a way that you can observe, but don't put any expectations into it one way or the other. Maybe try to observe it like a biologist observing an animal in the wild... oooh, H did this behavior or said these words, interesting... but stop yourself from trying to analyze the why.
I know it is hard. So hard. I ugly cried tonight for the first time in a pretty long while. I ordered a book on divorce and it came, H saw it. Suddenly all starting to feel more real.
I have much the same situation. Mine filed in mid November and for a few weeks, came back hard toward me but since then has backed off. We talked Monday and he said he hasn't changed his mind. He can finalize it next week but said he is in no hurry to do so and implied ever so slightly that "trust" was his issue and could change his mind. Those crumbs aren't good enough for me anymore. It's all BS. I twisted myself into a pretzel trying to make changes and alleviate complaints. We have no kids so that isn't an issue. I made a conscious decision yesterday to let it go and have gone dark. Mine has not yet experienced the consequences of what he has done but he is about to, and I am ready to go. I'm not saying it doesn't hurt - it hurts a lot. But I am too old to be wasting time like this anymore. If it is my destiny to go on alone and ultimately with someone else, it's time to move toward that. I still don't think mine can pull the trigger in the courtroom but I am not hanging around waiting to find out.
(((HopeCa))). So sorry you are going through this. I know how hard this is. I also know that there is life after divorce...and it is as good as you make it. I don’t say that to discourage you from the hope that you have that you and your H will R at some point. Anything is possible. However, I do want to caution you.
The thing is...after BD, it feel like the situation is so very new and it is, to the LBS. However, it is not new for the WS/WAS. They have been feeling this way and thinking about D for a LONG time... in some cases it has been for years. With my XH it had been about five years. That’s a lot of thinking and feeling and justifying and feeding of resentments that has to happen for them to get to the point of BD. This is not a decision they are going to step back from easily. It took too much for them to build up the courage to do it. They fear the D but they fear going backwards and having to go through it all again EVEN MORE. Of course they will have doubts and you will see them waiver from time to time. And when they do, most won’t slow down to think and reevaluate their decision making. Most will double down and push forward which is why we often see them become hard and steely-eyed so quickly after we saw them waiver and show some softness towards us.
The other thing to keep in mind is that they don’t want to hurt us. They don’t. Ironic given that they probably hurts us more than anyone ever has but it’s the truth. So when they start to see how much we are hurting, they throw us a bone and do what your H did. I had similar communications from my H...that he was hurting, trying to figure things out, working on himself, etc... What he should have said to me is that he was figuring out how to D with as little pain and upset as possible but that was the extent of it. For the vast majority of us on here, D is inevitable but it doesn’t mean there isn’t a possibility of R in the future. ANYTHING can happen. So you can hope for that but you shouldn’t count on it or make your decisions based on it. Your marriage, as you knew it, is OVER and you need to accept this and take the focus off of him and put it back on you. For real. 100%. Anything less than that cements you as Plan B and Plan B is only attractive to a WS if they firmly believe Plan A isn’t going to work. Even then, they still may skip over Plan B and try to come up with a Plan C. Remember what they say on here... If he wants to come back, you will know it. If he doesn’t, you will be confused. Truer words were never spoken.
I am so sorry Hope. I would love nothing more than to say that I think the confusion he has shown is a good sign. But I can’t because I don’t believe it is. I just think it is par for the course and what I read in his response is him trying to soften the blow...trying not to hurt you. I think May is right too. When he talks about not making big decisions...he is referring to changing his mind on the D. Trust me...what he is doing in his reflection time is building his resolve and courage to keep the train moving down the track. Remember...he has been working towards this in his mind for a long time. To him, the worst is over. He’s told you. He’s moved out. It would take a major shift for him to turn back now. (((HUGS)))
Which is all the more reason to throw the Hail Mary pass at this point. Make him experience the divorce before it happens. NO CONTACT except in your case simple logistics of picking up and dropping up the kid. No talking about cute anecdotes, no letting him in to play daddy with you there, none of that. I do agree that most of them are not sure, mine included, and they'll throw you a little here and there to make sure you're locked in as plan B. Mine signed me up for his company's health insurance for 2020 a week after filing the D in November. WTF. I can't be on there if we are divorced. There is tremendous personal power and relief in letting go. Go on Youtube and look up Jill Scherer's video about the Unstoppable Power of Letting Go.
BTW: DejaV66: In your situation, there was an OW involved. That is a different animal. The generalizations you made in that post are in large part your projecting your situation onto others which are quite different. No shade intended here, just that pronouncements such as the ones you made are not helpful. Every one is different.
@Newbie - I just watched that video. It was great! Thanks for sharing it.
You're welcome. I think all LBS should watch it.
Newbie.. I’m confused because when I read your response, it appears that we are recommending the same thing. I think you misread my post.
Btw... I’m not projecting anything. 95% of the time there is an OP involved. I’ve read hundreds of sitchs and threads and watched it play out time and time again. So many people come on here certain there is no OP involved and then three to six months later they find out different. I was one of those people. Everyone on here told me to prepare myself for that discovery and I am glad I took their advice even though I still didn’t believe it. They also told me, regardless of an OP or not, I needed to move forward, drop expectations, GAL like crazy, detach and get out of his way because nothing I did to try to change his mind would bring him back if he had truly decided he was done. I needed to let him go to get me back. If I hadn’t done that, and instead I had hung my hopes on everything he said and did that looked like he might possibly change his mind, I am confident I would still be a mess today... and also still divorced.
Not trying to be a downer. I would love nothing more than for the new people on here to have a different ending than I did. I really would. I just know it is unlikely...especially if the things they do are done to try to get their S back. Letting go...really letting go...is the only way to truly get through this.
(((Hope)))
I am sorry to read your recent posts ... first I would like to address Newbie and DV6 and I am sorry to hijack. I hope we can put it to rest. I agree that in most of these sitches there is an OP involved. If I recall in HopeCA sitch there was an A and it fizzled out at some point. Perhaps she or another A is still in the picture? We cannot know for sure. Either way, the general DB principles are the same. When I read Dv6s reply, I thought it was awesome. Did she project? Maybe, or maybe not. I actually think that we all slightly project and it is impossible to avoid! I am so guilty of this! We come here only having our own experiences to draw from. Newbie, perhaps something she posted triggered you and was off putting to you? Or perhaps you just have a different style of posting? I think either way, we all have to be mindful in the way we disagree with one another and it is only worth doing if someone says something harmful. I also saw you both sending the same message of love and concern for her. If we publicly disagree with one another, I fear it can take away from the posters original need for support. It can also prevent other readers from posting for fear of being called out.
Hope,
My heart ached for you when I read your last couple posts! I think you have maintained hope all along with him, as he has mostly been kind to you and recently enjoyed family time as well. I also have read that he is ambivalent and perhaps confused, but he is still pressing forward with the D. I am not sure what that means, but I think you might need to simply take it at face value. It is very, very hard to spend time with them and not have expectations. Those expectations are what makes acceptance and detachment so much more difficult. You speak about that family time reminding him of what he is missing and that is one way to look at it. The other way to look at it is that he sees more of your vulnerability and that you are plan B. I am not saying either perspective is better, but I think you know I lean towards the latter of the two.
So where do you go from here? .... Girl, I know you know what to do! (((Hope))) You are just scared to let go! I wholeheartedly believe in you! .... Have you ever had a broken heart before? Didn't it feel like it would never heal? But it did. And it will. .... In fact, I would venture to say that once you make this leap, and let go of him and all expectations, that you will find so much relief. You so, so deserve some relief. It's like your soul has been held captive and you can finally set it free. And it might happen quickly and faster than you even imagine. ... Perhaps you are the cause of your own pain? Have you ever thought about that? By holding on to hope so tight, perhaps you have created your own disappointments and that is actually what is holding you back?
The beautiful thing is that you, and only you, has the power to let go. I believe that once you do, you might be flooded with relief, and then your healing will begin. I have so much faith in you. All of the other day to day interactions, and paperwork, don't really make a difference once you set your heart free.
Blu
Thank you so much for your replies everyone.
In this situation, there have been many moments where I’ve wanted to let go, but I was afraid to because I was scared I might miss my chance to keep my family intact if I let go and gave up too soon. At this point, I finally, truly do feel that I have done all I could.
You are all correct: my H has me locked in his mind as a solid plan B. He had asked me to call him last night to talk (once again, roping me in). I knew better this time and did not have expectations, though my hope rose slightly, and my curiosity was piqued. We talked for a while, and it was more of the same confusing, waffling, vague stuff from him. It became very clear that I’m Plan B. He talked about how this is “just a piece of paper” (??) and “nothing is going to change much” (???????) and he’s conflicted, etc etc etc. I honestly have no idea what the point of that talk was or why he wanted to have it.
Blu, I think you are right, about it all. I do not want to be plan b for anyone. And I do not want to hang on so tightly anymore. I have been terrified to let go. Terrified. For so many reasons. I’ve been afraid that it meant letting go of hope. I think I needed to feel like I had tried until the end. And I do feel that way. It is absolutely time to let go; I can say that with absolute certainty for the first time at this point. If my hope for R disappears as a result, then so be it. If hope can exist somewhere parallel to full acceptance and release of this situation, so be it. But it’s time.
I think my past attempts at letting go have been thwarted by my fear that I would somehow give H the wrong idea or give him fuel for his fire. Im ready to accept it if those are the results. When I think of him saying last night that nothing ls going to change with this divorce, I’m frustrated at myself that I didn’t correct him. He is wrong. I was honestly stunned to hear him saying that, and I regret not setting him straight. I’m contemplating whether I should, for my own piece of mind, find a time to communicate that directly.
For now though, I’m spending time confronting my fears and anxieties and sadness head on. I’m not done crying, I won’t pretend to be done being sad or sacred or anxious about this. But I’m focused on gentle acceptance. This is happening. This. Is. Happening. It is not in my hands and I can finally, actually accept that truth. It may not sound like much, but it’s a big step for me.
I am in the same place as you. In my case, the waiting period has passed and he can go down anytime now and finish this marriage off. I had some last business I had to do with him yesterday and I held it together and did it. Still has the frigging wedding ring on. That I will never get. I bit the bullet and sent him a list of accounts he will have to switch to his name whenever he does that. And now I am done. It was so painful talking to him and seeing him that I don't want to do it anymore. I'm on my island of going dark and I'm staying there until he either does it or wants to talk about R. I'n not done crying either. It's 31 years in my case. Luckily, there aren't any kids to deal with.
I've found that going to a divorce group is somewhat helpful. It took awhile to do it because that required admitting it was going to happen. I have found a good podcast that helps. Google is your friend in that regard.
I wish we knew each other. It would be nice to talk to someone in the same situation. I have to believe we will both get through it and find some peace.
Hope ~ I think you are approaching your emotions in a healthy way... let the fear and anxiety and sadness be. Don't push them away, but don't wallow in them either. The only way to deal with them is to be with them.
Your H's confusing statements sound familiar to other sitches here. Maybe it's part of a common dynamic for the WAS to both want the D, but want to keep some part of the MR there too. It's incredibly confusing.
In my younger days, I had awful NG tendencies. I recall breaking up with a long-term GF, feeling really bad about it, and suggesting we could be close friends still. What she deserved was to hear the honest truth: I didn't see a future in us, even though I thought she was a great person. Instead, I doled out little pieces of hope that just confused her and made the ending drag out longer. I wanted to let her down, but softly, because it made ME feel less guilty about it. It was not respectful to her.
I'm not suggesting this is what is happening in your situation, because I don't know.
No matter what they say, the WAS will always miss part of the MR. They may cling to those parts they like. Unfortunately this isn't a la carte dining.
Hang in there.
Sending hugs, Hope. You are brave and strong.
Thanks. I don’t feel strong or brave or healthy or anything of the sort right now. I feel overwhelmed with sadness. I’m trying to pull myself together before H drops off D4. I don’t want him to see my pain and vulnerability anymore.
I’m sorry that you are feeling down right now. My H has said the same thing when he mentioned D - it’s just a piece of paper! It’s just a form to fill out! I actually agree with the former, yes at this point our M is indeed only binded by contract, a piece of paper, an intangible computer file even. When you start looking at it that way, maybe it could be less scary for you to accept D. The M is already over. But the relationship will never end because you are forever bonded by your daughter.
It is not wrong to have hope, but you need to be brutally honest with yourself about the reality too - that M might not be what your one version of your hope is. With that said, you can have many kinds of hope- hope of R, hope of becoming a stronger HopeCA in the end even H might not be in the picture anymore, hope that you will be the best mom you can be to your daughter, hope that life will work out somehow. Hope is not the enemy, delusion is.
Hi, HopeCA. I just wanted to drop in here and saying I'm thinking about you and I hope you're taking good care of yourself.
I have t posted in a while. Since our last court date I have crossed a threshold into the beginning stages of letting go and true detachment. I’m by no means there or over it, but I’ve entered a phase of it I have not entered in this sitch thus far. It’s a relief.
This has had a marked effect on H. He has been texting me regularly with pointless things that are obvious tests/temp checks, bringing my daughter to visit me at work during his time with her for no reason and generally trying to engage me in chat and jokes. I’m not allowing myself to be engaged, and I’m no longer overly concerned with how that may or may not be perceived. I’ve exhausted that route. This reaction in his part does not give me hope. It’s just something I notice and I assume it’s a natural shift in the pursuer-distanced dynamic. I hold a tiny amount of hope that the feeling of loss of our family may cause H to turn back. But I do not in any way EXPECT that to happen. Intellectually I understood the difference between the two before this point, but I didn’t really believe it was possible to have joe without expectation. I feel the difference now. It’s a really strange feeling for me, but I’m grateful to have finally experienced it.
Last week H texted me to ask if he can take D4 on a short trip soon. He has asked before during this situation and I’ve always said no for various reasons. This time I accepted that it’s a matter of time before this happens, put my anxieties and concerns aside and said yes for the first time ever. He didn’t respond (or even mention it when we saw each other) for 4 days until last night when he texted me to say that he had forgotten to respond and to thank me. I think this is BS, but it doesn’t matter.
On Thursday when he dropped of D4 he brought up a stack of art she made at school and mixed in I saw an envelope with his return address, addressed to the court. I don’t think he knows I saw it before he took it and put it aside. This is curious and somewhat alarming to me, as it’s my understanding that for where we are in our divorce process there is nothing he needs to submit to the court. We have always agreed to do things amicably and transparently, and I would be blindsided and really upset if he is doing something without at least letting me know first.
Then yesterday was just plain weird. When he came to get D4 he was going around cleaning things, tinkering with things around my house, talking to me about his ideas for the garden (whaaaaaa????) After they left he calledabput something he and D4 wanted to come back to grab, and he was overly familiar, calling me a nickname. It was seriously weird. Later he texted to say that D4 wanted to come to my house to eat dinner (???) and was that ok with me. In those moments I have to take a fake it til I make it approach to detachment, so I decided to say it’s fine and then leave my house. When they got there he was just being way to comfortable and familiar. I was annoyed bordering on pi**ed off about this. I attempted to keep my distance and detached air without coming off angry.
With all of this, the text about the trip, the envelope and his weirder behavior I’m feeling really anxious and uneasy. I’m contemplating asking him if somethings up, but debating if it’s a good idea. I’d love some advice or input. Here are my thoughts so far:
1) I recognize I’d be asking purely to soothe my anxiety. I’ve done things before for that reason that I’ve regretted afterward. The alternative is to wait and see.
2) on the other hand it could be empowering for me to ask about it rather than waiting and seeing.
3) there is a chance that nothing is up/the envelope has nothing to do with me or isn’t important/that he was considering doing something that he is now reconsidering. In any of those cases I would not want to draw attention back to it or force his hand on anything.
4) bringing it up does not contribute to my air of detachment. Much of my detachment is real, and much is still in fake it til I make it mode. But I’m actually succeeding at it somewhat for the first time and I don’t want to burst that bubble unnecessarily.
Thoughts?
Turning around. Say nothing. Act as if you don't even notice.
Mine did that too. I don't want to put too much detail here because you never know who is reading but he did a 180 in his behavior and I thought for awhile he'd lost his mind.
Mine came back. And we were in the same place as you. All he had to do was go to the court and finalize it. He didn't.
Hope ~
I vote for #4.
You’ve pointed out how it’s impossible to tell what he’s thinking or why he’s acting that way. I’ve noticed from time to time my WAW will become nicer for awhile and I’ve never figured out why. Sometimes I think she is alleviating her own guilt. Sometimes I think it is genuine. Sometimes I think she forgets what we are going through. But one thing for sure... as long as I am confused, I keep trying to stay detached and not get sucked into wondering what she is thinking.
That being said I’m sure seeing the envelope was tough and has you wondering what is going on? Do you have any reason to think you would need to protect yourself legally?
Thanks you guys.
To clarify though, I did NOT mean at all that I was considering asking him about his strange behavior or his mindset. The only thing I was considering asking him about was the envelope, which is the true cause of my anxiety. The rest just provided a weird context for the whole thing
Hi, Hope! I’ve been thinking about you and wondering how you are. I have a similar experience from time to time with wanting to ask questions to calm my anxiety, when that is really something I can do on my own, by accepting that I don’t know but I really want to, and that’s okay. Many times my anxiety ends up being over nothing. I would lean toward number 4 too, while considering unchien’s question about whether you really think you might need to protect yourself legally for some reason. Maybe this is something you could run by a lawyer if you’re worried, and that will calm you? I.e. What are all the
possible scenarios; of those, which seem likely or most unlikely, and would any of them end up affecting you negatively in the end anyway? Maybe you have done all you need to to prepare for them, and you can let it go.
Intellectually I understood the difference between the two before this point, but I didn’t really believe it was possible to have joe without expectation. I feel the difference now. It’s a really strange feeling for me, but I’m grateful to have finally experienced it.
Bravo, Hope! I have hope I will get to this point too.
Hope ~ for anything that may have legal consequences, I wonder if you can take detachment out of your thinking process? It is really hard to weigh these decisions. Do you need to know what the letter was about? I don’t know the answer.
I do not recall the details of where you are in the process. I’m at a stage of extreme distrust while on the surface trying to mediate through things, so my advice is grey tinged for sure. I lean towards advising you have L advice just in case - a decent L would give you advice without pushing you to do anything. Perhaps you have no reason to be concerned and then could let it go
I’m feeling so frustrated and annoyed.
I decided to let the anxiety about the envelope go—-I’m not worried that there’s anything he could be up to that would affect me in an immediate sense, and I decided that I should wait and see, rather than ask questions just to soothe my anxiety. Nothing has come of it so far.
H’s behavior continued to be weird, seeking my attention and trying to be around. I have made myself scarce for the most part. Last night I gave in a bit; H came to pick up D4 at my house because she didn’t have school yesterday, and when he came in he was being that weird way again, trying to catch eye contact with me, commenting how cute D4 and I are together. He asked if I had dinner plans (I’ve gone made sure to be out the past few evenings) and I didn’t have time to think and said no, and he offered to go get take out. I knew right then I should say no thank you, but I said ok.
We had a nice evening, after we ate I tried to keep my distance and let him be with D4, and he kept chatting me up.
After he put D4 to bed, he brought up wanting to figure out a custody arrangement for the D. I kept composed and we started a long conversation about custody stuff. We had some sticking points and he was frustrated and wanted to see a mediator. That frustration (re me not giving in to what he wants) quickly devolved into him expressing his anger at me for OLD things from our past (the same things he has brought up over and over again since BD, which we have discussed at length, I’ve apologized profusely for, etc) He expressed feeling that I was steam rolling him in the conversation, that I let my emotions control all me decisions, I’m inflexible and I always get my way.He brought up wanting to have taken D4 on trips in the last year and I’ve always said no. I told him I realize that and wanted to do the right thing despite my feelings and anxieties, and that’s why I’d said yes this time. It almost feels like my giving him what he wanted triggered his anger about all the times I didn’t.
I was genuinely shocked, I hadn’t heard that kind of anger and animosity and resentment from him in a while, and I validated and let him know I was surprised as I didn’t realize he still felt those ways. He said of course he does, it’s old scars and ptsd from what I put him through and he doesn’t know if it will ever heal. I tried to validate as much as I could. He also said that “the only thing he ever did wrong in our M was to kiss your a$$ and bend over backward to make you happy”.ummm ok. I breathed and said I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t see it that way. I told him that I know it’s possible to forgive and get past that level of pain and anger, because I’ve largely done it with therapy during all of this. He got quiet and said he was tired and left.
WTF. I don’t know where all of that came from. I guess I was naive in thinking he had been working through all of that (he had told me he was in IC a while back, from what he said last night it sounds like that was short lived). It’s just so frustrating. It feels like he just does not WANT to forgive me. It feels like he sets himself/us up ass a test and when he enjoys his time with me it makes him angry and think about past resentments, or something like that. I don’t know. It’s just so frustrating that he is seemingly choosing to remain resentful and resist healing/forgiveness at all. I just don’t get it.
Sure am wishing I had followed my gut and said no to that &@!$! dinner.
I’m feeling so frustrated and annoyed.
I decided to let the anxiety about the envelope go—-I’m not worried that there’s anything he could be up to that would affect me in an immediate sense, and I decided that I should wait and see, rather than ask questions just to soothe my anxiety. Nothing has come of it so far.
Question after reading the conversation you had with your H - is there any chance he is considering filing for a change in temporary custody arrangements?
After he put D4 to bed, he brought up wanting to figure out a custody arrangement for the D. I kept composed and we started a long conversation about custody stuff. We had some sticking points and he was frustrated and wanted to see a mediator. That frustration (re me not giving in to what he wants) quickly devolved into him expressing his anger at me for OLD things from our past (the same things he has brought up over and over again since BD, which we have discussed at length, I’ve apologized profusely for, etc) He expressed feeling that I was steam rolling him in the conversation, that I let my emotions control all me decisions, I’m inflexible and I always get my way.He brought up wanting to have taken D4 on trips in the last year and I’ve always said no. I told him I realize that and wanted to do the right thing despite my feelings and anxieties, and that’s why I’d said yes this time. It almost feels like my giving him what he wanted triggered his anger about all the times I didn’t.
I was genuinely shocked, I hadn’t heard that kind of anger and animosity and resentment from him in a while, and I validated and let him know I was surprised as I didn’t realize he still felt those ways. He said of course he does, it’s old scars and ptsd from what I put him through and he doesn’t know if it will ever heal. I tried to validate as much as I could. He also said that “the only thing he ever did wrong in our M was to kiss your a$$ and bend over backward to make you happy”.ummm ok. I breathed and said I hear what you’re saying, but I don’t see it that way. I told him that I know it’s possible to forgive and get past that level of pain and anger, because I’ve largely done it with therapy during all of this. He got quiet and said he was tired and left.
I am frustrated and annoyed on your behalf!
Keep standing up for yourself and what you believe in. Now you've seen a glimpse of how he feels, so you are better prepared even when he is "playing nice" for awhile.
It sounds like you have a clear head about what you think is fair and reasonable, and aren't going to be swayed easily by his emotional pleas.
It feels like he just does not WANT to forgive me. It feels like he sets himself/us up ass a test and when he enjoys his time with me it makes him angry and think about past resentments, or something like that. I don’t know. It’s just so frustrating that he is seemingly choosing to remain resentful and resist healing/forgiveness at all. I just don’t get it.
It's a lot easier to justify one's life decisions when they can be blamed on somebody else. It's really that simple. That mindset also blocks personal growth... his loss.
Thanks unchien, I appreciate your thoughts. To answer your question, a temporary custody change is one of the options I thought of for what might be in the envelope. I *think* that he was assuming I’d say no to the trip and maybe would have filed it if I had, but I don’t know.
I agree with you about blaming me for his life choices and about his limiting his own personal growth. The latter has always been in an issue in our R, and with all the talk of him taking care of himself and getting therapy, not drinking, exercising etc, I guess I assumed he’d taken a step forward in that regard. It doesn’t seem that is true and it’s disappointing.
This morning he came to pick up D4, and brought me coffee and came in all cheerful, called me by a nickname. When D4 was out of ear shot he apologized for our last conversation, said he doesn’t hate me and that he does still have some anger but he wants us to have a good relationship. I thanked him for that. I was feeling prickly and sensitive and not at my best, so I didn’t say much. When they left he went in for a big hug from me. He is the most confusing and frustrating person. I’m continuing my efforts toward detachment for my own sanity because this is just too hard.
Geez, Hope, that was a tough conversation, and you handled it really well on your end. It's a good reminder to me that just because it seems like H's anger and resentment have faded a bit, that might not be the case. No expectations, indeed. You should be proud that you have worked so hard to get to where you are, and that you are not weighed down with those feelings. He's struggling with those feelings, but at least seems somewhat aware of the struggle. I hope for his and your sake he continues to work through them. It might take longer than you'd hope, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
I guess I assumed he’d taken a step forward in that regard. It doesn’t seem that is true and it’s disappointing.
I think change is always possible but it doesn’t come easy. I didn’t change until I hit my own emotional rock bottom. It helps me to think this way - I have empathy for my W because she has not really had to deal with her resentment yet. I was forced to deal with my issues, being in the LBS position.
This is another reason to detach and stop reading into things. We are so often wrong, or projecting what we hope to be true.
He is the most confusing and frustrating person. I’m continuing my efforts toward detachment for my own sanity because this is just too hard.
This is exactly what detachment is all about.
I get it. Before Xmas my W was calling me delusional and out of control and unsafe with the kids, the next minute she was hugging me and crying about the holidays. I can’t deal with whatever is going on in her brain. I am 100% focused on my future. The constant mixed messages will drive you crazy until you stop tuning into that frequency. Or think, “hmmm curious I wonder why he’s doing that? Meh I think I’ll just go about enjoying my day.”
Hope, I know it’s hard but choosing not to participate in his blame n’ shame sessions will help prevent these emotional hangovers. Eg. “I’ve apologised for my mistakes and flaws In the past. I’m not interested in discussing our marriage since it is now over. My only concern is for D4’s safety and happiness moving forward.”
He may have gotten angry with you because your acceptance and accomodation of his request disrupts his narrative of you being the bad guy. He needs to continue justifying his decision to cheat and leave by vilifying you. So your niceness makes him feel uncomfortable because it reminds him that he did very wrong by you. The guilt and shame he feels gets projected onto you because he lacks the coping skills to deal with these emotions.
/armchair psychologist
Thanks guys. I agree with much of what’s being said here. I do think that when I’m able to be rational and reasonably accommodating to him it does disrupt his driving narrative and justifications and that angers him. It’s all so backwards, really. I’m focusing on my detachment momentum, and I’m struggling today. It feels like when H picks up on my semi detached nature it freaks him out a bit. It feels like the ups and downs and twists and turns of the rollercoaster that is Hs mixed messages are getting closer together. Things seems to flip from one extreme to another so quickly, it is making me somewhat crazy.
I am further along on my detachment path than ever, but I still have a long way to go. All of this doesn’t affect me as intensely as it once did, but it still effects me.
This week has been ALL over the place. On Tuesday we got into a minor parenting disagreement. I stayed extremely calm and spoke my piece, He got defensive as usual. When he tried to shut down the conversation, I just said ok and didn’t push it (huge 180 for me) and he then inevitably picked the topic back up. When he accused me of being patronizing I calmly validated and apologized that he felt that way and assured him that was not my intention. I handled it really well. After he left he was texting me about small nothings and then this:
I hate leaving your place feeling like this. I really appreciate your want to be successfully communicative. I want that too. Admittedly I was unnecessarily defensive. If course you want her safe I know and appreciate that. Thanks for being patient with me
UNPRECEDENTED. I was amazed. I let him know I appreciated it. The next morning he texted me:
Good morning girls! [completely unnecessary stuff about D4 from the previous day] Have a great day!
I mean...what??
He was texting me random unnecessary stuff unrelated to D4 or anything really while I was work yesterday.i stayed last night up until D4s bedtime and when I got home he pinched my waist and commented on my appearance (???????) and leaned in to me so I could smell him.
Then after bedtime he got all serious and asked me about the financial disclosure papers I still need to serve. AM I INSANE? This is so so so confusing. Right?? Am I nuts?
Insanity. You are getting a little window into the chaos in his brain! Scary, isn't it???? As hard as it is to be the recipient of all that confusion, sometimes I imagine how hard it must be to have the one with all of that happening inside. It has got to be awful.
I feel like when you get these mixed messages it makes DBing and detaching so, so hard... but probably more important than ever. Do your best to just let it flow over you.
But, you are NOT nuts.You are doing a great job... keep it up. you got this!!
He really is confused isn't he? I'm imagining how this would play out if acted out physically like in a dance or something. He would be creeping towards you on tiptoes, then when you turn round, shoving you away and running. It's kind of how toddlers behave isn't it? They ask you for hugs and reassurance and kindness and then when you've given it to them they push you away because they strive for independence. Toddlers are a WHOLE lot easier to understand than spouses though
Stepping back and observing kindly from a distance seems like the best approach for you though, I really liked the post on another thread about seeing the other person's actions as if they were in a novel. Personally I sometimes find myself thinking about the whole dramatic mess as being like a TV soap opera. So many cliches said, so many cliched scenarios enacted. But you know there'll be another episode coming and that the story line will be resolved one way or another. I have a gut feeling you will end up reconciling for some reason, but you have to detach before that happens...
Thanks for reading and responding may and dilly. I’ve been feeling sad and exhausted and lonely and kind of spinning the last couple of days. It’s nice just to feel heard by some people who know how I’m feeling. Thank you.
I really really am focusing my conscious energy toward detaching, and trying to shake off the mind reading urges, etc. It almost feels like this kind of meta dilemma—like detaching isn’t something you can TRY to do, you almost have to detach from wanting detachment to achieve it. It’s a mind bender. Like how trying to remember a dream just pushes it further away. Or something like that. I don’t know, I’m tired, haha.
I really really am focusing my conscious energy toward detaching, and trying to shake off the mind reading urges, etc. It almost feels like this kind of meta dilemma—like detaching isn’t something you can TRY to do, you almost have to detach from wanting detachment to achieve it.
I was
just thinking about this, Hope! Like I can really, really want to feel a higher level of detachment, but I think I have to allow my subconscious mind to do some of the work. I can't just want it a lot and force it to happen quickly, or at least it doesn't seem to work that way for me. Some of it is within my conscious control and some resists my control. And another level of detachment might just be on its own timeline, happening so slowly I can't notice the progress. Or maybe I'm just still not good enough at it. Ha.
I’m continuing down the path toward detachment. It is a slow journey with a lot of hurdles and back slipping, but it continues. I remember reading on another thread one poster commenting that he feels a lot of LBWs wear their lack of detachment like a badge of honor. I wanted to clarify that, at least for me personally, that could not be further from the truth. For me, announcing that I am not fully detached is being honest and admitting to my failures and struggles. It’s very important to me to share honestly and transparently here, otherwise what’s the point. In no way am I proud of the fact that I’m still emotionally attached to a man who has dragged me and our child through he11. Haha.
There have continued to be ups and downs and all kinds of...who even knows. The roller coaster continues. I have gotten SO much better at not letting his roller coaster drag me along. I have finally found a certain degree of equilibrium in terms of my manner towards him when we are together. I found that once I reached the point where I truly no longer want him to know my feelings or where I am emotionally, it became much easier. My feelings feel private now and I keep them close when it comes to H. That took time. And now that I’ve been in this place for an extended amount of time, now of course he’s trying to find out more.
This is where I’m looking for some advice. The last few times he’s been here to pick up/drop off D4, I’ve steered clear of him, been out as much as I can, and I’ve been pretty reserved. Not down or sad, just neutral and less talkative than I typically tend to be. He has been asking me if I’m ok a lot, and I always just smile and say “yup!” I do this whether I’m “ok” or not, and unfortunately I have no poker face. My whole life, no matter how hard I try to hide it, my feelings seem to be etched on my face. It’s inconvenient at best.
Anyway, I have been under extreme levels of stress lately for a variety of reasons, and I was already fragile yesterday. H texted to ask if D4 could spend the night at his place (yes this was the first time. Aside from the weekend he took her out of time she has always come home to sleep) I didn’t WANT to say yes, but I knew in my gut it was the right thing to do, so I said yes. I have a lot of emotions around this, so when he came to get her I was just barely holding it together. He asked me if I was ok repeatedly, and I just kept saying yes. And he just kept asking, until finally I had to say “I’m fine, please just let it be”. Then he was all apologetic. Unfortunately by the time they went to leave I could no longer hold it in and I broke down crying. He came over and gave me a hug which was strange feeling.
Later in the evening he texted me a bit about D4 and then asked AGAIN if I was alright. Honestly at that point it just felt annoying and invasive. If you ask someone repeatedly if they are ok and they say yes, EVEN IF they clearly aren’t, that means they don’t want to talk to you about it. Duh. So I decided to be a bit more authentic while still sticking to my guns, and replied that I was having a hard time but that I’m dealing with it myself. He pressed for more, trying to guess the things that might be bothering me, but I wasn’t biting. D4 called to say goodnight, and he later texted to make some MORE GUESSES about what might be bothering me (seriously...) to which I didn’t respond. Then he texted that D4 had been “wanting to come home but now she’s asleep” and asking if he could bring her home earlier than planned in the morning if she was still feeling that way.
He brought her home this morning, and they brought me flowers they had picked from his yard. Before he left H said “I’m sorry you’re having a hard time. If you want to talk to me about it you can. I mean I know it’s...” and kind of trailed off. I just said thanks and he said he’d call later.
So. I do not feel that opening up to him is the right thing to do. Not for me and not for my situation. When he inevitably asks me again if I want to talk, I want to have my response planned. I feel like this may be an important moment for him to know that because of his choice to pursue divorce, he can’t be that person for me, and I can’t share with him in that way. I don’t think that saying that outright is the thing to do, though I could be wrong?
I’m just not sure what the best way to express that is. Any suggestions or advice??
Hope ~
First, I think it's great you are authentic and admit to not being fully detached. I think that's true of most of us here, we just don't admit to it always.
He feels guilty, and wants to assuage his own guilt by "making sure you are okay." Of course he can read you well and can tell things are not okay. It probably felt great to him to give you that hug.
But more importantly back to you... you don't need to provide any reasons to him. This is a boundary you are setting. "Please stop asking me if I'm okay" or "I do not want to talk with you, please stop asking." Short and sweet. The more you give reasons, the softer the boundary.
Hi HopeCA,
I remember reading on another thread one poster commenting that he feels a lot of LBWs wear their lack of detachment like a badge of honor.
You made solid decisions even under emotional duress.
I feel more LBWs find a place where, even feeling hope and not being completely detached, they're able to give their partner breathing room, while take productive steps forward with their lives.
you don't need to provide any reasons to him. This is a boundary you are setting. "Please stop asking me if I'm okay" or "I do not want to talk with you, please stop asking." Short and sweet. The more you give reasons, the softer the boundary.
Thanks unchien. It doesn’t really feel like I need to set a boundary here—-if he wants to, he can ask til the cows come home. I still won’t open up to him, and it’s no skin off my back. It’s more that I feel like I want him to know the reason that I’m not talking to him about my feelings. I don’t expect to get any kind of reaction from it. It just seems like he doesn’t get it. And seeing as its inevitable he will try again to see if I’ll talk to him about the way I’m feeling, I’d like to use the opportunity to let him know why I won’t. In part, it feels like a temp check. And I don’t want to give him anything.
I’m thinking something like:
“I appreciate that you’re concerned, but you can’t be the person I open up to at this point.”
Thoughts???
It doesn’t really feel like I need to set a boundary here—-if he wants to, he can ask til the cows come home. I still won’t open up to him, and it’s no skin off my back.
I was reacting to your self-description of not having a poker face. It seemed like you did open up to him a bit, saying you are having a hard time, crying, etc. If you feel strong enough to not react, then I think it's fine to say "Yup, doing okay" as long as you can stick to it. I may be misreading your sitch but it seems like your H is perfectly fine in his own cognitively dissonant reality where he put you through h3ll while he also sees himself as a shoulder to cry on.
It’s more that I feel like I want him to know the reason that I’m not talking to him about my feelings. I don’t expect to get any kind of reaction from it. It just seems like he doesn’t get it. And seeing as its inevitable he will try again to see if I’ll talk to him about the way I’m feeling, I’d like to use the opportunity to let him know why I won’t. In part, it feels like a temp check. And I don’t want to give him anything.
I hear that you want him to stop temp checking, and you think by explaining your reasons to him, he will stop. I doubt that explaining your reasons is going to have the intended effect. If anything, he may sense your vulnerability and continue with the temp checking.
How about: "I appreciate your concern, thanks."
That pull to have the WAS just *understand* our feelings is so strong, I know. I still have it too sometimes. The times where I let go of that wish, I feel free.
I am so upset and in need of advice. I found out that H has violated a coparenting agreement that we have had in place since the very beginning of all of this. It came out from something D4 said in passing when he was dropping her off on Saturday evening. After he put her to bed I brought it up. He played dumb and stalled the conversation, then proceeded to acknowledge it was true and gaslight the f out of me in every way possible. He
Was saying “see this is how you get” as if I was wrong for being upset. Trying to give me time limits on how long I had to speak before he’d walk out, and coming up with every excuse he could think of to try to make me feel I was wrong and to try to walk out, before he did just that and left.
After he left I calmed myself and texted him:
“For the record, you’re wrong. This isn’t “how I get” when I’m upset. This is how I get when I’m justified in being upset because you’ve hurt me, and you treat me badly because of it.
This is how you get when you know you’re in the wrong.
This is the absolute ultimate form of disrespect at this point. And given the fact that we both agreed not to allow exactly this scenario to happen with our child, it’s that much more hurtful.
I am completely justified in crying and being upset. I did nothing wrong to you. I didn’t do any of the “old things” that you’d like to think I did. I expressed fully justified emotions and expected decency in return.
The only person who is displaying old bad behaviors here is you.
I started that conversation out apologizing to you and owning my actions. And you weren’t able to do the same “
He texted back “you are totally right and I am totally wrong”. I assume this was H knowing he was totally wrong but being incapable of admitting that in an authentic way.
I asked “is that serious or is that facetious”. I didn’t hear back until this afternoon, when he gave a half assed acknowledgement that he breached our agreement and my trust, but that he has no intention of stopping and adhering back to the agreement.
I can honestly say that this a new low that I didn’t see coming from him. I truly believed that no matter what, if I did very best, that at the VERY least I would be able to trust him as a coparent in the most basic sense. That is shattered now. I’m triggered beyond belief.
It genuinely feels like the more I try to be cordial and generous (as opposed to cold and controlling) the more he does things to screw me over.
He intends to discuss this coparenting issue with me this evening. I feel so triggered that I’m totally spinning.
I also feel like I want to lower the boom on this whole thing, give him the rest of his belongings that are still here and let him know I’ve tried but I deserve much much better than this. I know that doesn’t even make sense given the situation. I’d love some advice here
Hope ~
Are you willing to share any details about the coparenting agreement issue?
I am going through a lot of similar issues right now. It feels like peeling a whole new layer of the onion away -- first it was trust in my life partner as a spouse, now it is trust in her as parent. And in the same way I held out hope she would want to work on the MR for the sake of our kids, I held onto that same hope about our ability to co-parent. It is almost as hard to go through this process of realizing that we can't have the happy amicable D where we support our kids in the most healthy way possible (at least for now).
It sounds like you are right to feel angry, but be cautious about that anger feeding into an escalating cycle. I'm not sure you need to hand him the rest of his belongings ASAP, but you can address the issue at hand and make it clear how it has affected your trust in him as a parent.
Thanks unchien, I always appreciate your thoughtful responses.
It is hard isn’t it, this next layer of things with separate parenting. It’s a whole new layer of struggle, pain, shock and disappointment. I agree; the last thing I want to do is escalate this. I relayed the whole thing to a good friend, and she commented that she thinks what he did was a thoughtless, impulsive thing he didn’t think much of, and since he got caught he’s kind of doubled down on “standing up” to me about it. I think the best thing I can do for myself (and a major 180 on my usual responses to things like this) is to state my feelings plainly and let him know I don’t want to have a big talk about it.
As far as wanting to hand him his things, you’re right and I’m going to hold off. I don’t have the energy or desire for any drama. I guess the driving feeling behind wanting to do that is that I’m wanting to take noticeable action to let him know that this is the line for me. I won’t take disrespect as a parent laying down. And furthermore, I feel so sure that I deserve more than to be gaslighted any time I’m upset about something shi**y HE has done, and that has ALWAYS been the case in our relationship. I’d almost forgotten about that immature, selfish trait of his. The more he feels he’s wrong, the worse he treats ME and acts like I’m doing something wrong. It’s intolerable. And it appears he hasn’t grown past it a bit. I guess I’m feeling fed up and wanting to take action. But I should probably just sit with that feeling for awhile...
Hope, do you feel comfortable and confident discussing the issue in person? One of the wonderful benefits of no longer being in a relationship is that you aren’t required to work things out, or communicate, or even ask the other person to do anything. You aren’t required to sit there and hear his excuses or justifications if you don’t want to. This doesn’t make you a bad coparent.
As long as your daughter is safe and content, does this issue need to be raked over the coals? If what he did sets a precedent you aren’t okay with, you can calmly and rationally state your case in writing so you aren’t exposed to his emotional reaction. I fear that you will end up hurt and disappointed again by continuing to engage with a man who cannot or will not meet your expectations for successful coparenting.
Just as an aside - a person who is capable of deceiving and betraying their primary relationship in life can’t be expected to act with honour or integrity in other areas of their life. Not to say they can’t do it, because I’m sure some do, just that it should surprise you if they don’t. It’s like being surprised that a murderer is okay with shoplifting.
I know that I stopped feeling upset when I stopped caring what XH does with S2 on his time. I can’t control it, I can’t dictate it, I can’t even have expectations for it. I haven’t asked about it in many months. As long as S2 is returned to me in good condition, I consider the visit a success. I know (guess?) you are still aiming for reconciliation though, while I am running eagerly towards divorce, and my XH is one of the worst on here by the sounds of it.
Parallel parenting is working well for me. His and hers parenting time. It doesn’t seem like something you’d want right now, but it’s an option if you are struggling with detachment. Are you coparenting under the guise of perpetuating and reviving the marital relationship? Maybe ask yourself why it’s so important to you to have a successful coparenting relationship. Is it for your daughter’s sake or yours? Is it a fear of failure or fear of letting go?
Hope ~
I can tell from your post you are very upset.
My MR involved quite a bit of gaslighting, or if that is too strong a word, a controlling person whose opinions became our shared "truth" - how to parent, what's best for us, etc. It's not all her fault, I allowed it to happen too. I'm determined to change my half even though it tends to create more friction.
Your friend had great advice -- stand up for yourself, calmly and assertively. Sometimes I think to myself -- the calmer I am, the stronger the message.
Hopefully at some point your H will see you have changed how you handle these situations and modify his behavior accordingly. This may happen, it may not. Doesn't matter.
The last couple months I took a co-parenting class which was fantastic. I highly recommend seeking out some resources (books, podcasts, videos, classes). Why was it fantastic? Because it was honest -- there is nothing you can do to force your co-parenting arrangement to be smooth or amicable. But there are many things you can do to support your daughter as best as you can.
Scout and unchien, Thank you both for your thoughtful responses! I will try to respond more in depth later today.
Right now I’m just venting about last night.
After D4 went to bed, H asked if I was ready to talk (which was super weird, because he is the ultimate avoider and has very rarely initiated talks about things he knows I’m upset about). I told him that I really didn’t want to have a big talk about it or escalate the topic. I said that I feel strongly that good coparents should have sets of agreements about the big, important topics, and that I was very surprised to hear him sounding like he doesn’t agree with that, but that I don’t have a lot more to say at the moment. He was visibly annoyed. He threw hands up as if to ask “what??” I said if you have anything you want to say I’m happy to listen? He said he didn’t. So I said great, and went back to my cooking.
Then H asked “what if I gave you more money every week?” (I’ve lost my income due to Covid-19 lockdown, and he pried that information out of me a few weeks ago). I said I’m not sure I know what you’re asking me? He said in a very resigned, annoyed sounding voice “I’m going to start giving you X amount more money every week”. I told him that while that would be very helpful, I don’t feel very good about that idea. I told him he is clearly already resentful of it and he hasn’t even done it yet. I said that since it doesn’t sound like there is any good will attached to it, I’m guessing you want to do that to assuage your own guilt, and that doesn’t feel very kind. I feel like you bringing up this “offer” of much needed help while simultaneously making clear how much you resent it puts me in a tough position. If I accept, I feel you will simply add it to your list of resentments to hold over me, and that’s the last thing I want for myself.
He was annoyed by this. He went into a whole thing about how he’s so frustrated with the financial situation. He said that once the divorce goes through and the dollar amount he owes me is “on the books” that he won’t feel so guilty and responsible for making sure I’m ok. I told him that I doubt that’s true. He could calculate the amount of money he’ll be required to pay me at any time and adjust the voluntary support accordingly. I said I think that it’s a fantasy that the paperwork of the divorce will wipe those feelings away for him. I said I feel that he is combining the on paper logistics with the complex emotional aspects. He strongly disagreed with all of it.
At this point he is seeming super eager to get the final pieces of the divorce done, because he believes he won’t feel any more “pressure responsibility or guilt”. That is really upsetting to hear. But that’s where he is. It’s a sudden flip, which he’s done several times after periods of him being warm and pursuant. I think I’ve been picking up on this and it’s what made me want to make a statement and give him all his stuff. Like saying “ you’re free already. I’m not holding you back.”
I want to say up front that I prefer hard feedback on my own situation, so I hope I don't offend you with what follows. It is just one internet stranger's reaction after following your sitch for some time.
After D4 went to bed, H asked if I was ready to talk (which was super weird, because he is the ultimate avoider and has very rarely initiated talks about things he knows I’m upset about). I told him that I really didn’t want to have a big talk about it or escalate the topic. I said that I feel strongly that good coparents should have sets of agreements about the big, important topics, and that I was very surprised to hear him sounding like he doesn’t agree with that, but that I don’t have a lot more to say at the moment. He was visibly annoyed. He threw hands up as if to ask “what??” I said if you have anything you want to say I’m happy to listen? He said he didn’t. So I said great, and went back to my cooking.
He doesn't agree with your idea that you should agree on big topics, or he doesn't agree on a specific point?
Then H asked “what if I gave you more money every week?” (I’ve lost my income due to Covid-19 lockdown, and he pried that information out of me a few weeks ago). I said I’m not sure I know what you’re asking me? He said in a very resigned, annoyed sounding voice “I’m going to start giving you X amount more money every week”. I told him that while that would be very helpful, I don’t feel very good about that idea.
I sense from your posts that you feel stronger than ever before, and you want to stand up for yourself and let your H know how you feel as part of being more assertive.
I wonder if leaving out your feelings in these communications would help make them a bit more businesslike and less likely to frustrate you (or him).
For instance: "I appreciate your offer for money. Although that would be helpful, I politely decline."
No need to share your feelings. He doesn't care right now.... unless you start talking about how things are hard and then he likes being a shoulder to cry on.
I told him he is clearly already resentful of it and he hasn’t even done it yet. I said that since it doesn’t sound like there is any good will attached to it, I’m guessing you want to do that to assuage your own guilt, and that doesn’t feel very kind. I feel like you bringing up this “offer” of much needed help while simultaneously making clear how much you resent it puts me in a tough position. If I accept, I feel you will simply add it to your list of resentments to hold over me, and that’s the last thing I want for myself.
I have a soft 2x4 here -- I would consider saying none of this in the future. Keep these thoughts and feelings to yourself. You are mind-reading him (possibly correctly, but still...). It's fuel for escalating things. I completely understand your desire to stand up for yourself and poor treatment, and to express yourself to your H finally, but he's just not going to hear any of it the way you want him to anyways.
He was annoyed by this. He went into a whole thing about how he’s so frustrated with the financial situation. He said that once the divorce goes through and the dollar amount he owes me is “on the books” that he won’t feel so guilty and responsible for making sure I’m ok. I told him that I doubt that’s true. He could calculate the amount of money he’ll be required to pay me at any time and adjust the voluntary support accordingly.
Good statement... you offered him a solution.
I said I think that it’s a fantasy that the paperwork of the divorce will wipe those feelings away for him. I said I feel that he is combining the on paper logistics with the complex emotional aspects. He strongly disagreed with all of it.
Same soft 2x4 applies here.
At this point he is seeming super eager to get the final pieces of the divorce done, because he believes he won’t feel any more “pressure responsibility or guilt”. That is really upsetting to hear. But that’s where he is. It’s a sudden flip, which he’s done several times after periods of him being warm and pursuant. I think I’ve been picking up on this and it’s what made me want to make a statement and give him all his stuff. Like saying “ you’re free already. I’m not holding you back.”
Sounds like he has a tangled mess of emotions to sort through on his own.
You don’t offend me at all! I, too come here for honest feedback of any and all kinds. And I think you are probably right about it all.
To answer your question, I’m not sure which it is he doesn’t agree with. It’s possible that he only disagrees about the point at hand, but he kind of doubled down and made it sound like he disagreed about what it looks like to coparent. I said this to him because he had texted me that the way he parents our daughter is going to be “his business”, in response to me saying I was that it was my understanding that he didn’t plan to return to adhering to the agreement we’d made. He had also said “we had an agreement, but things change”.
Those (infuriating) statements sound to me like someone who is saying “I’m going to do my own thing and don’t want to cooperate or have to adhere to any agreements with you”. So I was simply letting him know that was my understanding of his statements.
If it is simply that he doesn’t agree on that one point, then I figure there will be a time to sort that out, when things are less tense.
I think you’re right about your 2X4s. Im annoyed at myself about it, because I had a plan to avoid getting into a talk with him and I executed it. And instead of taking the out, avoiding talking and leaving as I expected him to, he pulled me into a different talk, and I allowed him to.
I’m having a new combination of emotions and it’s throwing me. I’m feeling simultaneously strong/wanting to stand up for myself and say “enough”, combined with feeling sadder, and more heartbroken than I have in awhile. It’s not just that I wanted reconciliation, it’s that I really believed we had a chance, and I don’t feel that way anymore. That leads to feelings of desperation for me, and it’s a lot of work for me to sort out which impulses stem from my desperation so that I can stop myself from taking those actions.
Those (infuriating) statements sound to me like someone who is saying “I’m going to do my own thing and don’t want to cooperate or have to adhere to any agreements with you”. So I was simply letting him know that was my understanding of his statements.
Possibly. My read is that you had an escalating conversation, he was clearly using emotional reasoning, and probably does not feel as strongly as you are thinking he does. Either way, leave him to sort it out.
None of that is meant to defend him. I don't know the details of the agreement or how it was violated. I've had my own conflict over agreements a lot lately. It is aggravating, I know.
This may or may not resonate with you, but lately I have been thinking my goal of co-parenting amicably is just as much of a fantasy as R was 6 months ago. Co-parenting uses all the same DB techniques. Let go of the rope (in this case, the hope of two parents providing a perfect parenting arrangement). Control what YOU can control, let the rest flow by. Of course I will be amicable, but I can't FORCE it... I can only handle things respectfully and in a business-like fashion on my side.
I’m having a new combination of emotions and it’s throwing me. I’m feeling simultaneously strong/wanting to stand up for myself and say “enough”, combined with feeling sadder, and more heartbroken than I have in awhile. It’s not just that I wanted reconciliation, it’s that I really believed we had a chance, and I don’t feel that way anymore. That leads to feelings of desperation for me, and it’s a lot of work for me to sort out which impulses stem from my desperation so that I can stop myself from taking those actions.
You have made a ton of progress. Celebrate the small victories.
Are you feeling desperate, or are you going through a natural grieving process?
Both. I am grieving, again. And I feel desperate. I can hear my brain thinking of what I can do, feeling the urge to pursue, etc.
I also feel a strong urge, as I’ve mentioned, to kind of do a closing action. I think it feels important to me that he realizes that it isn’t me that’s holding him back, or keeping this divorce from progressing/making him feel pressure or guilt.
Both. I am grieving, again. And I feel desperate. I can hear my brain thinking of what I can do, feeling the urge to pursue, etc.
I also feel a strong urge, as I’ve mentioned, to kind of do a closing action. I think it feels important to me that he realizes that it isn’t me that’s holding him back, or keeping this divorce from progressing/making him feel pressure or guilt.
Leave him to his feelings. Nothing you do or say right now is likely to change his feelings. His guilt is his alone.
Check that you are not falling for the "illusion of action". This is another of those self-protecting DB principles. That doesn't mean all action is a bad idea. But I think it is wise to think about what is spurring you to action, and whether that action is likely to yield the results you are looking for.
Yes, I definitely hear what you’re saying, and that’s why I decided to sit with my feelings for a bit. I think the action is considering taking is kind of like what is recommenced at the very beginning, directly after BD, basically saying “oh you’re in a rush to be done with this? Ok let me help you”.
I say this because after so much confusing behavior/mixed messages/admitted confusion and conflict from H, at this time he is expressing that he feels pressure and guilt related to me (although even he admits it’s by zero fault or action of mine). Directly post BD it’s advised to demonstrate that response, to remove pressure or the illusion of it, and to let the leaving spouse know you don’t intend to try to stop them. The way he’s talking, I get the sense that he feels that I’m somehow standing in his way, so I’m feeling like that’s what’s needed here, both for my own sake and for the sake of this situation or what’s left of it.
H will be here tomorrow evening to drop off D4. I’m thinking of giving him the last of his belongings (it’s only a few smallish things), and any remaining financial disclosure paper work. Part of me wants to include a note, but I know that isn’t advised.
Does this seem like a bad idea at this point?
Hope ~
I think giving him his belongings and financial disclosure paper work is fine. Business-like and proper. You can even give him a smile and be nice and relaxed about it. Look at Hope, just going about her day.
But...
No notes!!! Please!
I say this because after so much confusing behavior/mixed messages/admitted confusion and conflict from H, at this time he is expressing that he feels pressure and guilt related to me (although even he admits it’s by zero fault or action of mine). Directly post BD it’s advised to demonstrate that response, to remove pressure or the illusion of it, and to let the leaving spouse know you don’t intend to try to stop them. The way he’s talking, I get the sense that he feels that I’m somehow standing in his way, so I’m feeling like that’s what’s needed here, both for my own sake and for the sake of this situation or what’s left of it.
Well it sounds like he has a lot of his own feelings to sort through.
Focus on you.
By giving him his belongings and the paper work, you are demonstrating that you are not standing in his way.
If he expresses his feelings you can validate (or even just practice reflective listening). Leave your feelings out of it. Your feelings are an inconvenience to him, they are pressure, they will be misinterpreted and misconstrued and added to the mountain of evidence supporting whatever his latest narrative is.
Thank you, you’re probably right. Again
I was notified today that our April progress court date was continued until June for b/c of quarantine lock down. Usually I would be happy about this as it would just buy more time. Right now it almost feels like that bad thing that will work against me by making H feel more trapped or held back somehow. Of course, regardless of how he feels about that, there’s nothing I can do about that aspect of things or his feelings about it.
Thank you, you’re probably right. Again
I was notified today that our April progress court date was continued until June for b/c of quarantine lock down. Usually I would be happy about this as it would just buy more time. Right now it almost feels like that bad thing that will work against me by making H feel more trapped or held back somehow.
Of course, regardless of how he feels about that, there’s nothing I can do about that aspect of things or his feelings about it. This - this is good. I need to get there too. Accepting that his feelings are out of your control.
AND, frankly this out of your control too. Let him be mad at COVID 19.
And, you are also right... more time... take the gift and keep working on yourself.
BLLLLAAAAAHHHHH
I am going to need some exercise tomorrow because I can feel adrenaline just coursing through me.
I had the papers and Hs stuff all ready for him. When I gave him his belongings ready for him to take he said “I don’t really need to take them today”. These were literally the one thing he wrote on his assets form for the divorce that he wants to take from what was our home. WTF. I said “oh that’s fine I got them out for you take and I know you want them”.
He responded that he can’t really use them at his place and asked if I ever use them. I said “yes sometimes”. He said “well I don’t have anywhere to store them”. I replied “I don’t really want to store them for you”. He said “ok, fine” and took them. I handed him the packet of papers as well. He seemed pi**ed off.
W T F
I feel good that I got that over with. And thrown by the way it went over. Trying to focus on the first part.
I feel good that I got that over with. And thrown by the way it went over. Trying to focus on the first part.
He felt trapped, you set him a bit more free, and he didn't like it. Typical walkaway spouse, no? You just gave him the last things of his in your home and his biggest concern was *storage*. How frustrating.
I feel good that I got that over with. And thrown by the way it went over. Trying to focus on the first part.
He felt trapped, you set him a bit more free, and he didn't like it. Typical walkaway spouse, no? You just gave him the last things of his in your home and his biggest concern was *storage*. How frustrating.
It’s amazing how WAS follow the same playbook. Mine also asked me to renew our lease so he could continue “storing” his things here. Not only do they have a timeline as slow as a snail but their indecisiveness also is totally puzzling to me.
Hope, your response to him was perfect! When that day comes for me I hope I can say those words “I don’t want to store them for you” as easy as you did it.
Hope ~
I agree with CW and wooba, you handled that really well.
The super slow time line must be a common theme. It's happening in my sitch too.
I think of it this way... he wants you to be the villain. He wants to feel justified so he can minimize his guilt. He wants to be free of you (wants his stuff back), but doesn't actually, really, need his stuff back right now. To you, it makes no sense. To him, it makes all the sense in the world.
Or put another way... he has a certain image of who you are, his own version of the truth. And then you have your own self-image and your version of the truth. There is a verrrrrry small overlap area where those circles line up. Otherwise, they don't. And there is nothing you can do about it other then let him live in his own bubble-world where he imagines you are some different person. At times you will feel like he is trying to gaslight you. You will be aggravated by the cognitive dissonance required for him to believe you are this completely different person.
I think you will need to get used to managing the adrenaline rush you feel in these interactions, because you will probably have more of them.
I say all this because I am going through many of the same things. I don't post much about my situation anymore, but I feel like I am in bizarro land. My words are constantly twisted. I will ask for something, and it will be denied. I will not ask for something else, but my STBXW will get stirred up assuming I did ask for it.
I am not suggesting you need to take drastic action. But I think you need to drastically rethink your relationship with your H right now. You may see glimmers of the old H when your worlds overlap, but for the most part, he is off in his own reality and it does not align with yours. I think you need to focus on you 100%, accept that he's going to push your buttons, and continue to handle your interactions in a pleasant, business-like fashion (exactly how you did). When he's gone, you can vent, meditate, scream into a pillow, do yoga, go outside and run, whatever you need to do.
Yeah, honestly my adrenaline was really from the build up leading up to it. I was really nervous about giving him the stuff and the papers and wondering how it might go.
The exchange itself wasn’t stressful for me. It was just very odd and, as you said, made no sense. And then the fact that he was annoyed after I gave him the things he’s been asking me for..it’s jus t baffling.
But afterward I felt relieved and stronger than before.
I feel good that I got that over with. And thrown by the way it went over. Trying to focus on the first part.
He felt trapped, you set him a bit more free, and he didn't like it. Typical walkaway spouse, no? You just gave him the last things of his in your home and his biggest concern was *storage*. How frustrating.
It’s amazing how WAS follow the same playbook. Mine also asked me to renew our lease so he could continue “storing” his things here. Not only do they have a timeline as slow as a snail but their indecisiveness also is totally puzzling to me.
Hope, your response to him was perfect! When that day comes for me I hope I can say those words “I don’t want to store them for you” as easy as you did it.
Ditto for my H....he thought I was providing a storage solution , all because he didn’t need all his stuff right now. I told him to look online if he needed storage facilities.
You did the right thing and I hope you feel good for it!
I’m sorry you’re in this sitch however, I just read most of this thread to try and catch up.
. Sending hugs
I really don’t know, but I didn’t get the sense that the storage was his focus. That seemed like an after thought. If I were to venture a guess aka mind read, I’d say it was more to do with him trying to assuage his guilt in a very misguided way by leaving them here, letting me continue to use them, etc. Obviously I could be wrong. I think he was taken by surprise and just reacted oddly.
He also commented AGAIN on how thin I am which continues to be super weird.
H just continues increasingly to swing back and forth between being super friendly/chatty/warm and bending angry/mean. It feels like we are back to the time right after BD. The difference being that I am in such a different place in terms of my ability to manager emotions and handle triggers. Last night was just really rough. I did ok, but it wasn’t my best DBing.
It is so hard to stomach H continuing to throw the same old stuff in my face and blame me for everything, and reach for reasons to say that nothing has changed and it’s still the same old stuff between us. I know I should be be in a space by now where that doesn’t affect me. But I’m not, and it does. Everyone here is right that it doesn’t matter what you do or say. They feel how they feel. He can see all the fort I’ve put in to change things, he’s heard my apologies and validations. And he chooses to hang on to his anger at me and his belief that our relationship is unsalvageable because of me.
I believe whole heartedly that the only reason we can’t salvage it is because he refuses to try to forgive the past. And it hurts so so so much.
Last night H reverted to all his old behaviors, stonewalling etc and making it impossible for us to have the conversation he tried to start with me. At the end I wasn’t at my best. He said “all I want to do is walk out of here right now” and I said “you already did that 2 years ago”. And he said “yeah and it was a dream come true”. I left the room and he left.
He texted me immediately afterward that it was horribly mean and he was sorry and that he didn’t mean it.
I waited a few hours and responded that “I wish I’d had the opportunity to heal the pain inside him that makes him want to hurt me badly enough to say that”.
It may not have been good DB, but it felt real and it felt strong.
I haven’t hurt like this in months.
Hope ~
Maybe this goes against DB advice: I don't think sharing your feelings at the end was particularly wrong in any way. DB isn't always about clamming up and hiding your feelings.
He may never forgive the past. I don't know how to help, I'm struggling with the same feelings. It hurts and it's painful.
Thanks unchien. Lately I’m starting to feel like everyone else on this board sees my situation as such as lost cause that nobody even knows what to say on my thread. I can understand why.
I’m still coming here though, because I’m drowning I’m sorrow and pain right now, grieving I guess. As many have said, the isolation of quarantine doesn’t help. I take my daughter out for walks every day, and that helps a little.
There’s something lately about seeing the pain in H’s eyes while he says terrible things to me, it’s pushing me over the edge a bit. It would be easier if he were just mean or just cold and apathetic. It’s all the other stuff mixed it in that makes it so hard I think.
Hope ~ Not a lost cause.
You're here because this community helps you get through a brutal process. My situation has been a lost cause probably since the day I came here. I'm still here, posting, working through it, learning from the experiences of others who have been through it. You're a lost cause when you give up working on yourself.
Be compassionate for yourself. It's normal. All of it. You can't snap your fingers and become invulnerable to the words of someone you used to care about more than anybody else. It's a process.
I also wish I could find that center and ground myself, to somehow be open to healthy dialogue while also being impervious to the slings and arrows. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish the two. Nobody is perfect, everybody struggles with this (I don't care what any vet says), and we are all human.
Hi Hope -- I just spent some time reading your thread, and I feel so much for you. A lot of the back and forth that you are going through with your H is very similar to mine. Mine dropped a mini bomb in January, and then decided to physically separate 3 weeks ago. What he said during that physical separation was very definite, and very cold. Since then, there have been I love you's, I miss you's, and I don't want a divorce, but he also recently said that he was very sad and that even though he didn't want a divorce, he was not still to the point where he wasn't "100% sure" that's where it might end up. He often conveys an attitude that no matter what he feels that divorce/no reconciliation is inevitable, and it's extremely frustrating when the other things come with it. I started getting the I love you's/miss you's when I pulled away and started to detach, but the mixed messages tend to well all of those feelings right back up, and make me want to (or sometimes do) break DBing. It's so hard.
I don't think your situation is a lost cause. I've read a lot of situations out there on this board, and I do think some spouses are more prone to swings back and forth on whether they really want a divorce more than others. Coming from someone who's in the middle of mixed messages and occasionally on the receiving end of hurtful statements, I have so much sympathy for you, and I share how you feel about the difficulty of detaching in the face of it.
Unchien is right...we all struggle with this. I'm thinking of you.
Hi Beth,
Thank you for reading and for your thoughts. I really appreciate it! I’ve been keeping up with your thread, and I think you’re doing great, and I feel for you too.
Hope, I’m not super active on the boards here, but I always read your updates because our situations were quite similar at the start. I wish I could give you a hug. Two years is a long time to be stuck in the same place with the same feelings.
Do you think there would be merit in trying a different approach? Not to win your H back, but to rescue yourself. I think DB calls it the last resort technique. From what I understand, it’s essentially going NC with the exception of childcare arrangements. No more spending time at your house, no more random conversations, no more access to your thoughts and feelings.
What I’m wondering is if he has experienced any consequences for his behaviour during the past two years. What would he do if he realised he had genuinely lost you? If he realised that divorce really did mean the end of family time? What incentive does he have to value you and your shared life if he knows he can behave however he wants and be welcomed home with open arms? I think he knows that door is not closed.
Regardless of what happened during your marriage, your H betrayed and disrespected the vows he made when he walked out. That trumps anything you did or have done since. He should be begging YOU to allow HIM to be part of your life. He should be grateful that YOU aren’t pushing for divorce. Right now, he’s still calling the shots and he knows it.
Try making him believe the door is closed. You don’t have to be mean or cold, just firm with your boundaries, eg. I’ve already apologised for my part in our marriage breakdown and won’t discuss it further while the divorce is pending. I respect you as D4’s father, but I want to keep our relationship to parenting matters only, so please don’t comment on my appearance. You’re welcome to drop D4 off at the front door and I’ll put her to bed, and I will do the same at your house. Or whatever suits you.
Don’t lose sight of what you want and deserve. If H was out of the picture, what would your life with D4 look like? What’s stopping you cutting the cords tying you to your old life and designing a new, happier life? Your H may or may not follow and you can’t control that. If he doesn’t, you WILL be okay. If the alternative is still being stuck in this emotional turmoil in another year or two, doesn’t moving on alone sound more appealing? Your situation may or may not be a lost cause. Just don’t let YOURSELF become a lost cause.
You’ve got this, Hope!
Hi Scout,
I always kept up with your thread as well, thanks for coming back to write to me!
I completely agree with what you are suggesting. I WANT to go this route for my own sake, and I know it’s what my situation needs. I think I must truly be experiencing a level of cognitive dissonance I didn’t know my brain was capable of, because otherwise I don’t know why I’m apparently doing so poorly at it!!! I am so ready for a new approach!!! I am so ready to make him believe the door is closed, and to hopefully do such a good job of faking it that I start to feel it too.
I really, truly want to do that. I keep doing things that feel like I’m doing that, but I think maybe I’m not consistent enough with myself, and therefore in my actions? I think I’ve been sloooowwwwwwly closing that door, but I need to firmly shut it and let the latch click. I’m just not sure what I’m doing wrong?
I’m frustrated because I swear on everything I am on board with what you are saying, and yet somehow I’m not succeeding at it. I’m gonna spend some time thinking about the choices I’m making that are not setting me up for success with the LRT approach I KNOW I need to employ, for my situation and for my own well being.
I REALLY appreciate this Scout, and I welcome any and all advice/thoughts/etc. I want to make this switch, I guess I just need extra help
My advice?
If I were you at this point, I would completely stop validating, and the easiest way to do that is to simply stop talking to him. Go dark. Keep your responses short and limited to a few key phrases. Yes, no, okay, I need to think about it, I’d like to talk about that in person, I don’t think that is in D4’s best interest, I’m not going to discuss that with you anymore. That sort of thing. Physically, emotionally, mentally distance yourself as much as possible. Don’t worry about losing him. He is already gone. The goal now is to nurture and protect yourself. It’s all about you now. You could try setting a personal boundary that anything that happened in the past has no bearing on your coparenting relationship going forward. Don’t use coparenting as an entree into a relationship. Don’t acknowledge comments from him like “you always” or “you never” or “this is why I left”. Just decline to engage. Literally put the phone down or walk away if he goes there.
I can only speak to my situation, but there was a point that I realised XH’s view of me and our situation was totally skewed and objectively incorrect, and it would remain that way as long as he was actively in an affair. There is his truth and her truth, definitely, but there are also facts. He is welcome to his truth, and I was happy to acknowledge that his feelings about his truth were valid, but I would not validate anything that was not fact. That included any accusations about my character or my motivations. Ignoring these things is the most effective and protective response. Validating might have made him feel better, but it made me feel like dogsh1t. It became a vicious cycle of accusation and validation, and the only way to get off the awful merry-go-round was for one of us to stop participating. I realised XH was never going to stop blaming me and I no longer wanted to absorb those negative feelings. It was wrenching, but I had to cut contact.
I know the advice here is to always validate, but in my case, validating XH’s feelings actually fed into his victimhood narrative and fuelled his justification for leaving me. It made him more convinced that he was doing the right thing because I was admitting to all his accusations. He didn’t form his ‘controlling, manipulative, under the thumb’ narrative until AFTER I wrote him a heartfelt letter owning my part. Before that, it was all about how weak, boring and not-good-enough I was. Validating his ‘truth’ made ME believe that I was the horrible person he told me I was which I knew wasn’t objectively true. There is a lot of emphasis from pro-recon people on owning your part, but that doesn’t mean you have to believe everything he tells you about yourself. None of us are perfect, but you HAVE to back yourself. Trust yourself and your innate goodness. Know yourself and your motivations. You made mistakes, but you were committed, always. You gave your all to your marriage and your family. He didn’t because he left. That is a FACT.
It’s okay to put yourself first. It’s okay to admit you are a victim. You were abandoned and deceived and betrayed! You signed a contract in good faith and he broke it. You were emotionally mugged. If you were physically mugged, people wouldn’t tell you to own your part, would they? Anger and grief and disgust is a healthy and normal response to being victimised. Sit with those feelings as long as you need, but act on your principles rather than emotions. It’s okay to acknowledge that the person you loved more than anything didn’t love you the same way. It hurts. It really hurts. It’s okay to be angry with your H, while still loving him, and at the same time admit that you deserve to be treated better. My XH was my first love, and I doubt I’ll ever be able to rid myself completely of my feelings, but he did me very wrong and I won’t ever take him back. Use your strong emotions as fuel to close the door. Remind yourself you deserve better than table scraps of consideration. What you’re holding onto isn’t love, it isn’t reciprocated, it isn’t healthy. It’s hurting you.
Think about what you would tell your daughter if she was in your position and treat yourself with the same respect and care.
This is all just my opinion and I hope I haven’t overstepped with anything I’ve said. I’m really rooting for you!
Scout, I agree, this is so powerful. You didn’t over step at all.
I’m gonna come back and read it every day so I can hold on to the strength your words made me feel. I wish I could hug you.
Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, in light of my new approach, I need advice for how to handle what’s come up.
The short background is that I’m the recent weeks H breached my trust in regard to a verbal co parenting agreement we had. He handled it very poorly when it first came to light. A few days later I got a half a$$ed apology via text and that was it.
Shortly after that, he told me he’d seen a counselor for help with coparenting stuff and had a Coparenting book he wanted me to read with him, and wanted me to talk about his stuff around it. I didn’t handle it well; I got upset and told him I’d be willing to discuss whatever he wanted re: coparenting, but that I wasn’t willing to brush his breaching of our agreement under the rug, and that I wanted to settle that first. He became defensive and stonewalled again, and that was the night he told me that walking out on me was a “dream come true”. He then immediately texted me that it was “horribly mean, Im sorry, I didn’t mean that, I just can’t be a good listener right now”. I didn’t respond and we haven’t spoken much since.
So, now I’m really focused on going as LRT with him as possible. And he’s proposing a talk. It is in regards to coparenting, which unfortunately I do have to discuss. He just sent this text and I’d like advice on how to respond and how to handle what he’s proposing:
“Hello can you tell [D4] hello for me?
I have been feeling like [censored] since we fought and I really want to get past it. I feel guilty and frustrated, and I’m sure you have some negative feelings as well. If that means having another discussion then, ok.
I really feel strongly about reading this book together and figuring out a plan for us and [D4]. I want to be on the same page with co-parenting, etc.
If that means having a hard talk to make you feel better then that’s what I’d like to do. Would you be willing to read the book if I have the discussion you and get somewhere with it?”
I’d love advice and guidance as I’m really trying to close the door with him, and this is a tough one. I don’t trust myself to handle this well!
Hope, I've only briefly followed your situation but it seems like you have one that has a hard time letting go and you harbor a hope for reconciliation.
This guy is offering to co-parent and wanting to review resources on doing so? I think that's huge. In many of the cases I've seen, and my own, they are unable to do any co-parenting and don't follow through on the lame efforts they do make. Given your child's young age, you are going to be at this for a long time. I would want that to be as civil and cooperative as possible.
I don't think you've identified the breach, and I'm guessing that maybe it involves an introduction to an OW, which I get would feel like an awful violation and even though my kids are much older, they've never met an OW. Whatever the infraction, find out from your attorney whether the law would even support you in enforcing it, because in most places I don't think it would if it is an OW, and you don't want to tilt about windmills over something you won't even end up with anyway, because you risk the loss of other things you might be able to bargain for.
In any event, why not use the branch he is offering as a means to frame the discussion you want to have. I think when you make demands and expect compliance in these types of situations, you stand to risk what you have: namely one of these guys trying to have a co-parenting discussion.
If you feel strongly that the breach would continue absent the discussion (and it did anyway with the agreement in place), how about suggesting that you are OK with not having the discussion of the past infraction (that these guys hate and will probably only result in monster and resentment), as long as he agrees that pending the co-parenting book/discussion plan that he agree to honor the agreement that you guys made before the breach, and that through that book/discussion/series of discussions, you guys can decide whether any modifications to it are warranted. This makes him a team member in the decision, rather than a sanctioned party
Going about it that way sets you up as mutually looking for agreement rather than being a finger-waving mommy type that nobody takes well.
This is a great opportunity to practice putting yourself first!
Think about what YOU want and what YOU are comfortable with. I'm going to take a stab at guessing that your emotions are still very close to the surface and you might struggle to keep them under wraps during any conversations. Therefore, I'd advise against a chat in person right now. Don't worry about appeasing him OR upsetting him. His emotions and reactions are his own problem to handle.
It's okay to respond "I'm not ready to discuss it with you at this point in time. If you would like to share your thoughts on co-parenting, you're welcome to send me an email. It would be a step towards having an agreement in writing which I'd like to implement following the divorce." Don't validate him saying he feels sh1tty - that's a guilt trip so you'll do some emotional labour for him. Don't agree that you have negative feelings - that's giving him access to your inner sanctum and he doesn't deserve it. Don't explain why you're changing your approach - show him with actions.
Be prepared for an unpleasant response. He may try and guilt you into it. He may question your dedication to parenting. He may throw a pity party about how hard he's trying. IT'S OKAY! Let us help you handle it. It feels wrong at first. It takes practice to draw and enforce boundaries. IT'S OKAY! You aren't being mean or cold. You are allowed to make decisions for yourself that do not serve him. He still expects your consideration and you are NOT obligated to give it.
You will feel powerful when you stand up for yourself. Try it and let us know how it goes.
Thanks OwnIt, I appreciate all input!
Thank you, Scout, I was hoping I’d get your advice on this.
I’m having a strong emotional reaction to your advice and I’m feeling terrified to follow it, which I take to mean it’s the right thing to do. I’m thinking of saying
“I want us to be on the same page regarding coparenting as well, but I’m not ready to have that discussion with you at this point in time.”
Is that wimping out? I don’t want to wimp out.
I’m also concerned about the open ended nature of it. I guess later when I’m feeling stronger emotionally then I can arrange to have the discussion??
You’re right, my emotions are right at the surface. And you’re right that this feels wrong. Which probably means it’s right
Hope ~ I have a ton of thoughts but I am watching my kids this evening =)
Regarding co-parenting, I've been in the same place as you... wanting to co-parent amicably, etc. I realized recently that, although my goal is admirable, it is probably a year or two down the road once we get through this D before my STBXW and I can really co-parent that way, if ever.
I took a co-parenting class offered through my county and it was fantastic. The whole point was how to handle things on your end... keep the kids out of it, stay cool and business-like, you can only control you. I think trying to connect emotionally with your H right now on co-parenting is probably not going to help you work through your own feelings, and you may want to adopt the "friendly business" relationship approach.
scout's advice is incredible. I know it's hard, two months ago I would have thought "that sounds so harsh and extreme." It's not. It's you asserting yourself as someone of extremely high value and self-worth.
Thanks for chiming in unchien. I’d love to hear all your thoughts whenever you have the time to share.
I think I just put together that perhaps I’m being a bit dense—scouts advice is so as to avoid having that conversation in person all together, not just to put it off until later. Is that right?
Regarding leaving things open-ended - yes! YOU can choose when to have that conversation, if at all. Reading between the lines, it seems that he wants to have this discussion to rearrange some of the existing verbal boundaries to suit his current situation. That's probably why he's pushing it so hard and fast. Are you happy with the way things are right now? If yes, then you have the upper hand in any negotiations. You don't have to be forced into anything. There's no hurry. Take 24 hours at minimum before responding to non-urgent communication. Write a draft and sit on it. Post it here and delete about 1/2 of it because I guarantee you don't need it all. "Reply in haste, repent at leisure."
One thing that really helped me distance myself was to stop referring to 'us' in any way, shape or form. There is no 'us.' There's you and D4, and him and D4. There's no team, you aren't working together in D4's best interest. He demonstrated that when he flouted your verbal agreement. In my case, I went out of my way to reword anything in writing that phrased it that way. eg. "We have shared parental responsibility" became "I have shared parental responsibility with you". It seems like such a silly, small thing, but it took practice and commitment to make it work, and eventually it made a big difference to my mindset.
In your case, you could write "I want to be on the page with you..." By saying "I want us to be on the same page..." you are still communicating how you want HIM to think, act or feel. Makes sense?
I added the bit about him being welcome to share his thoughts via email because it makes it clear you aren't controlling his actions in any way or denying him the opportunity to talk about co-parenting. Your response might come off a little dismissive. Remember, he can do whatever he likes. I agree with Own - it's a good thing he is putting in effort with regards to parenting. You are simply declining to participate on his timeline. It's not never having the conversation, it's on your terms. He sends an email, you read and review at your leisure. It removes the emotions and the urge to engage. It also sets up a precedent for communicating about D4 in writing to avoid confusion over verbal agreements in future.
Just my thoughts
Ok that all makes sense and is very helpful.
It’s funny you mention the part about my use of “us” because I noticed it too, after I wrote it down. I’m going to try to stop saying that.
And you’re observation that we aren’t working together in D4’s best interest is spot on and is a huge part of what I’m so angry and (ultimately sad) about. He’s pushing to present like he’s so eager to coparent and be on the same page. Well, until he broke my trust and dismissed it casually, I thought we were already doing that. HE ruined that. I’ve been doing my best to work with him in D4s interest all along. And how he’s trying to act like I’m the one who isn’t cooperating. Infuriating.
I’d already decided not to respond until tomorrow, so I’m going with that so I can draft and settle into it. And I see how my version does sound dismissive and like I’m hanging on to control; I don’t want to do that or sound that way.
Thank you SO much.
Hi Hope,
I love Scout's suggestion. Sorry these are hard times, but glad you're getting good advice.
Hope ~
Look at the recent breach as an opportunity to re-center your truth of what is happening in your situation.
I got fed up with my situation finally. It took my STBXW continually repeating some awful things to me over a period of several months, controlling our situation, distancing me from our children, until I finally gathered the strength to stand up for myself as a person of high value. Had she not overstepped so far, repeatedly, I might have allowed her to perpetuate a really terrible situation. As it was, I sought legal advice, I gathered strength from friends, family, my IC, and here, and I consciously made a shift in how I perceived my situation. It seems like scout went through a similar change of mindset. When it happens, it feels truly liberating and incredible. I still feel twinges of pain and guilt, but this is not 100% my fault and I did my best to own my part. That doesn't mean I don't still struggle with my emotions, in particular anxiety, but I am no longer prisoner to my hopes.
DB can be dangerous if you are not honest with yourself about your hopes for R. In my case, once we agreed to D and I dropped the R hope rope, I shifted my attention over to the hope of co-parenting amicably. Again, I was hoping SHE would want something that I wanted. This is just holding onto the rope in a new way. Now I stopped, and I stand up for myself more frequently.
Scout's advice is fantastic. Especially putting agreements in writing. This is a business relationship.
Thanks for your thoughts as always unchien.
I sent the text a couple of hours ago and I feel good about it.
DB can be dangerous if you are not honest with yourself about your hopes for R.
Will you clarify what you meant by this part? I just want to make sure I’m getting your point accurately. Do you mean it’s dangerous if you aren’t honest with yourself about the fact that you have hope for R?
Or did you mean it’s dangerous if you aren’t honest with yourself about what your actual chances of R seem to be?
Or something else entirely?
I meant the first interpretation (and didn't mean for things to sound so ominous!).
In my case, once I accepted that trying to have a nice, amicable split was leading me to make poor decisions, I was able to see things more clearly, start being more assertive, and start taking control of my own life. (It's a process, I'm not there yet!) I was trying to continue being a "We" instead of "her" and "me".
Once your mindset starts to change this all becomes easier. You are just handling your business in a pleasant, non-confrontational way.