Hi all, my marriage is in a complete mess and I don’t know if we have reached the point of no return, or what to do next. 10 months ago we reached rock bottom after a few years of bad marriage (1 yr without sex). We went out to dinner to discuss breaking up and ended up in bed for 2 days, like old time lovers. However since then he has maintained that he doesn’t have romantic feelings for me and finds sex awkward. I have tried to fix the marriage in that time, signing up for marriage fitness, reading hundreds of articles etc, being a better wife, GAL, whilst he has been non-commital because he doesn’t know if he wants to stay married. We have the most amazing friendship, share hobbies, holidays, date nights, etc but I am stuck in the friend zone. We hug, kiss, cuddle in bed, he holds my hand during the night, and he tells me he loves me deeply (but only as a friend) and that is it. I have stopped initiating sex due to wanting to take pressure off and also the pain of rejection. He did initiate it last week (because he knew I wanted to, but it was awkward and he said afterwards he feels no desire or passion). In the last 10 months I have told him that it was over and he pleaded not to end it; he’s told me numerous times he doesn’t see his feelings ever coming back and that it’s over, only to then call me an hour later to tell me he loves me but struggles with intimacy. 4 weeks ago I asked what he wanted to do and he said he’d decided he wanted to leave as he wanted to find romantic love and intense passion. But 6 hrs later asked for more time. Just before Xmas he booked himself in to see a therapist in the new year as he wants to understand why he feels the need to break up his marriage and family, plus he feels incredibly guilty about the devastation he will cause and there is also fear about what he stands to lose. In spite of his impending therapist appointment he still says he does not see a future for us, so last Monday I asked him to leave. He then said he wants to wait until he’s had therapy. I said perhaps he needs to do both. Since then he has taken no steps to leave. Yesterday he said we’ve always had a poor sexual connection ever since kids were born (15 years ago) and doesn’t see that will ever come back). Today he said he would consider marriage counselling. I know these are positive signs but we had counselling 2 years ago and it was disastrous and we stopped going as it was such a negative experience and I am fearful of it being more harmful as we are on the brink. I just can’t work out what the heck he wants - he won’t let me in but he won’t let me go. What do I do now? I am struggling to hold myself together with the constant uncertainty .
Welcome to the Newcomers' Forum. I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-65, D33,S32
Thank you, I have read a lot of those links and will continue. I
Is it possible for love/sexual attraction to return after being missing? He says he stopped loving me/stopped trying in Nov 2018
In the last 10 months I have told him that it was over and he pleaded not to end it; he’s told me numerous times he doesn’t see his feelings ever coming back and that it’s over, only to then call me an hour later to tell me he loves me but struggles with intimacy. 4 weeks ago I asked what he wanted to do and he said he’d decided he wanted to leave as he wanted to find romantic love and intense passion. But 6 hrs later asked for more time. Just before Xmas he booked himself in to see a therapist in the new year as he wants to understand why he feels the need to break up his marriage and family, plus he feels incredibly guilty about the devastation he will cause and there is also fear about what he stands to lose. In spite of his impending therapist appointment he still says he does not see a future for us, so last Monday I asked him to leave. He then said he wants to wait until he’s had therapy. I said perhaps he needs to do both. Since then he has taken no steps to leave. Yesterday he said we’ve always had a poor sexual connection ever since kids were born (15 years ago) and doesn’t see that will ever come back). Today he said he would consider marriage counselling. I know these are positive signs but we had counselling 2 years ago and it was disastrous and we stopped going as it was such a negative experience and I am fearful of it being more harmful as we are on the brink. I just can’t work out what the heck he wants - he won’t let me in but he won’t let me go. What do I do now? I am struggling to hold myself together with the constant uncertainty .
I'm sorry you're here Pommy. The limbo, with its uncertainty and feelings of frustration and sadness are an immense challenge to face. My take from what I see here, is that he may have felt for some time that he was bottom of your priority list. Not saying thats true. It may be how he feels.
I see you pushing him when he's hurting, and when he's hurting you (ex. Telling him to leave). That'll only push him further, as he is punished for his feelings. If he was feeling undesired already, pushing him away for feeling unloved will reinforce his current mindstate.
There are a lot of positives signs in your sitch and I have hope for you. Ready2change has a good post in here with books to reference which will help you one way or another.
Limbo is hard, I struggle daily myself. The vets on here remind us to stay patient.
Is it possible for love/sexual attraction to return after being missing? He says he stopped loving me/stopped trying in Nov 2018
Yes, from what I've seen on here and elsewhere as I searched for answers. Love fluctuates during marriages, at times you may not feel it for months or years. As far as sexual attraction, I'm sure many here would agree to GAL, and hit the gym, benefits are great physically and mentally.
Limbo is the gift of time. Most LBSs that take action to end limbo eventually come to regret it. The "if I only gave it more time" syndrome. So you need to be really sure you are ready to be D'd if you decide to make a move to end limbo. You will know when you are ready.
In the meantime, use limbo as a chance to GAL. To work on yourself (180s). And to work on detachment. I like the way that a certain bald Texan TV counselor says: earn your way out of your marriage. Most couples do not deal with the emotional baggage left from their marriage, and then are emotionally stuck even after the D is final.
#1 rule of DBing Pommy: Stop initiating R talks. If he does, listen and validate.
These are marathons, not sprints. The best way to fail at a marathon is to run it with a sprinter's mentality.
Is it possible for love/sexual attraction to return after being missing? He says he stopped loving me/stopped trying in Nov 2018
It can return, but often it doesn't until a long period of time apart. There's no "quick fix" unfortunately. I have 3 friends that reconciled with their spouses after long periods apart- 6 months, 2 years, and 10 years. All are exceedingly happy back together, in fact they all are happier than ever before. So yes, it happens.
Thank you, I have read a lot of those links and will continue. I
Is it possible for love/sexual attraction to return after being missing? He says he stopped loving me/stopped trying in Nov 2018
Pommy
My experience. My W said she wanted a D about 10 years ago and while she never gave me the ILYBNILWY speech, she made it clear that she didn't have the same feelings any more. After a time, it went from that to only "loving" me as a friend. But she was uncomfortable with any kinds of physical expressions from me. Luckily, it grew from that.
Last night me W and I were talking and she was saying how in love with me she still was. So yes. (Note: It didn't actually take 10 years, but it wasn't an overnight thing)
Thank you all for your replies.
@Core I told him it was over last March because he was having an EA whilst working away from home every week and I overheard the most hurtful things said about me when he accidentally butt-dialled me whilst out with Her.. Bit of a knee-jerk reaction but I’d already uncovered so many lies about the EA that I couldn’t take any more of the weekly anxiety of not knowing what was going on with city life. He told me he’d end the EA to work on his marriage but fast-forward to Dec 2019 and I discovered that the EA had been reignited, At the same time he was saying he was leaving...then needed more time..then leaving again...then needed more time. More secrecy and lies have been uncovered over Xmas re the EA and that’s why I suggested he should leave. I can’t face 2020 being like 2019, him working away during the week and then enjoying home comforts every weekend with no emotional or physical attachment to worry about.
OMG. Pommy! We are sisters!! I am in almost the EXACT SAME SITUATION and my H has said the EXACT same things to me. (But I found out a week ago that it wasn't just an EA, it was a PA and has been going on for two years!!)
Do you want to read through my thread(s) (sorry, mine are kinda long... you can probably just read the recap on the first page of each to get a sense of where we are) and we can chat? Mine also won't leave and wants therapy, but also doesn't want to give AP up.
Keep your chin up! You got this. There is a wonderful community here.
Hi May I would love to read your threads. I’m sorry you are going through this too. My H is adamant there has been no PA but I’m now doubting everything he says. His therapist told him he can’t be emotionally available to two people and if he wants to fix things she has to go but the T warned him it might feel like a bereavement. He said on Monday he will break all contact but I don’t know whether to wait for him to tell me that he’s done it, or to ask him if/ when he’s done it or going to do it. He told me she no longer works in the city and they haven’t seen each other for several months but I don’t know what to believe. As he is away right now I am in turmoil! Do I need to know full details of the past or should I just focus on going forward?
May I’ve read your threads
gosh we are in the same boat. Our Hs might be twins also!
Same deluded vision of divorce, same indecision, emotional detachment but get along great, same work situations (me stable income, him self employed - and I’m SO aggrieved that’s the expensive dinners in swanky restaurants in high-class suburbs although ultimately were a business expense, were paid on a credit card that came out of OUR joint account. And like you say more expenses = less family income ). He was completely deluded with there being no impact on the kids and had no idea of the financial implications. In the last 10 days I’ve asked him to leave, presented the reality of divorce and sent him some stuff to read on managing the impact of D&S on kids. He’s checked out the cost and quality of house rentals, and is thoroughly unimpressed, ...and now he is doing a u-turn, saying he wants to work things out. I feel that this is more to do with his quality of life, as well as guilt re the children, and nothing to do with feelings for me, because let’s face it, he doesn’t love me romantically and doesn’t want sex with me. But he wants to go to MC?
What is my next move? The dynamics are shifting , from him being totally in control to me challenging him. I’ve gone from being totally fixated on wanting him back to feeling like I don’t even know what I want any more. Xmas was a disaster. He was home for 3 weeks with no working away and it was supposed to be a time for spending quality time together. I discovered he’d called her in December and he said it was one call about a job, then I uncovered more - at the moment he’s admitted more phone calls in Nov and Dec, emails, LinkedIn messages, deleted WhatsApp conversations but maintains he hasn’t actually seen her since August as she no longer works in the city. It came to a head while we were in a taxi on the way to the airport for a weekend away after Xmas and a message came in from her which he frantically tried to delete before I could see it. I yelled at the taxi to turn round and H reluctantly agreed to show me the message - but only after he’d read it first. The message was complaining that he hadn’t been in touch and it had hurt her ‘just like last time’, and especially after he had ‘begged’ her to come back. I asked him what she meant and he says he has no idea!!!! We went away for the weekend, we had sex in the hotel, then virtually blanked me the next day. When we got home I asked him to leave. And now the u-turn after seeing the therapist.
I don’t know what to do next. I’ve lost all trust in him.
Hey Pommy,
This is so crazy. Wow.
My H swore upside down that there was no PA and that it had started in January 2019 (he told me about her in August). A number of posters told me that there was a strong likelihood that there was a PA and I should be prepared for it (as you probably saw in my threads). So I guess based on my experience I would say be prepared. I mean, he definitely had the means, motive, and opportunity (just like mine) and is saying all the same things about not wanting sex, blah blah blah. What would be different for you if they were physically intimate? On the forum folks are warning that you should not sleep with him if you have any concerns about a PA because of STDs and you might want to go get tested just in case.
For me, the BD that it was a PA (and had lasted twice as long as he had admitted) really changed a lot for me in how I understood it. Now I'm imagining them having these romantic little vacations (he's been to her city 12 times in 2 years), sleeping and waking up together (for whatever reason THAT is the most painful), plus the sex and it really f***ing killed me. Luckily I was somewhat prepared and so handled it better in the moment than I could have otherwise, but I'm still reeling and processing. I might recommend thinking through how you would respond if it is indeed a PA and if things would be different for you.
One thing I might note-- my H gave me the same speech about stopping being in love/stopping trying to initiate sex (and coming to this realization that I "broke him sexually"). Now I know that this "realization" came at the same time he met and started the affair with the AP. He pretends that they aren't connected but of course they are. So possible there is a similar connection to your H's speech in November 2018. Do you know when he met his EAP? (Also, if she's saying "begged her to come back" that sounds more like an R than just a friendship gone a bit too far. I would definitely be prepared. Don't want to be all doom and gloom but I was glad I wasn't blindsided more than I was on this one.)
Also, interesting to see the power dynamic shifting in both our sitches, though mine isn't saying he wants to work things out necessarily towards R, but that we work together on what we do no matter where it takes us and that he doesn't want to rush into anything. (I won't do that unless AP is 100% out of the picture and it can be proven to me, which is highly unlikely.) Also, WHY won't they f**ing leave when we ask???
I would say the following (none original, all things other posters have said to me that have helped):
-- the pursuer/distancer dynamic is real. You see it working. Keep it up.
-- think about what your boundaries are-- you can share them here and folks will help you. Read the boundary thread, a lot. I have had a really hard time separating what is a boundary for me vs. trying to control him.
-- focus on YOU. Try to stop worrying about him. He's f*ed in the head. What do YOU want? How can you spend your time doing things that will help you?
--working out has had a huge positive impact for me. I would strongly recommend it. (Also the "H being in love with someone else" diet is a miracle worker. I now weigh less than I did when we got married. My H's mom was like you have lost so much weight! How did you do that? I said I wasn't all that hungry, and my H standing behind his mom started giving me major dirty looks and shaking his head at me. hahaha.)
-- is there other info on your sitch you want to share? How old are your kids?
i don’t know how I’d feel if I found out there was a PA. at the moment I don’t know how I feel about anything.
We had a fight on the phone last night. He Is away and told me he’d gone for dinner with a male colleague in a certain restaurant, it was a restaurant he’d been to twice in Jan/Feb last year, where I had found receipts for dinners for two. So of course I dragged that up last night. I know I shouldn’t have said anything.
I saw my IC yesterday and she said it’s all about him, and it’s now time to think about me, what do I want my life and marriage to look like, what are my boundaries and deal breakers. I think him working away every week is a deal breaker. I simply cannot cope with this weekly anxiety. I did it all of last year and I was a mess inside, even though I tried to present myself as cheery and positive when we talked. Perhaps when he breaks contact with the EAP I might start to handle it, but at the same time, do I want this life where I only see him 4 days out of 7, and we then have to cram in family time as well as time for us in those 4 days. He gets the best of both worlds every week - he has a gym membership down there, always someone to go to dinner/drinks with, no kids to look after, no cooking, cleaning, chores, homework, etc.
I was already very active when this all kicked off but I am struggling to motivate myself. I used to train maybe 8-10 hrs a week, now I’m lucky if I do 3. I’ve taken up 2 new hobbies, plus I go out most weeks when he is away. However I find it hard to not constantly think about what might be going on in the city and struggle to relax. Yes I’ve also done the “my husband is having an A diet”. I dropped from 62kg to 56kg in about a month in March/April. I went back up to 59 but hit 56.0 in December again.
I feel so trapped inside a life I don’t enjoy and can’t seem to change.
Please can someone give me some advice. I feel like I need to rename this thread as it’s not anything to do with being stuck in the friend zone. It’s full on H hasn’t got a clue what he wants and I don’t know if I am DBing, or Piecing, or something else.
Summary
11 months trying to fix things, with H not sure if he wanted to try (ILYB)
Numerous announcements from H Oct 2019 -Jan 2020 that he wants to leave
Jan 6th H went to first IC and came home announcing he wants to try and fix things. IC said he needed to break contact with EAP. He talks about MC
Jan 7th H travels away for 3 days, contacts EAP and tells her no more friendship as he wants to try and fix his M
Jan 9th H arrives home, says he’s confused, doesn’t know what he wants, but wants to try because 1. Doesn’t want to break up his fsmily. 2. Doesn’t want lose the home he’s worked so hard for to go and live alone in a tiny rental. 3. Doesn’t want to break the commitment he made 18 years ago to the woman he married. But says he’s unhappy and depressed. He’s sceptical that ending the EA will help him discover feelings for me. Since announcing he wants to try, he’s actually been more distant -less contact while he is away and no longer holding hands/arm over me in bed.
I don’t know what strategy I need to follow? Do I talk about the R and what we need to do to reconcile, or do I follow DBing and not talk about the R? Do I try and discuss deal breakers (him working away every week ) or will that push him away? I feel that reconciliation needs to consider both our needs but at the moment we’re not in the same headspace or on the same page.
He wants to try and fix things but doesn’t know what he wants - isn’t that a complete contradiction?
The anxiety every time he goes away is crippling me, and in turn this affects the children. I think I have done a pretty good job of GAL. also he says the last year or marriage has been brilliant in that we get on so well. But there is no romance and passion, and that is what was driving him to leave.
I just don’t know what to do. As normal I have him home until 6am Tuesday then he will go again.
I would really appreciate some tips!!
Pommy, very sorry you're going through this. Unfortunately you are nowhere close to piecing. It sounds like your H is in MLC, and if he is then things are going to get worse before they might get better. The best thing you can do right now is embrace DB'ing. Give him time and space. Do not try to work on the M right now, just let it be. He's on a journey that only he can make. You can't make it better or faster for him, but you can slow it down. So get out of his way. Focus on you and the kids. Get out and GAL. Stop the MC. Become independent of him. He's got to learn to miss you and think he may lose you before he decides for sure that he wants to reconcile. That is probably way down the road so you've got to be patient.
What you don't want to do right now is welcome him back with open arms every time he claims he's made a decision to save the M. That is just a reflection of how he feels at that moment in time and that will change quickly. The next thing you know he'll be back in contact with OW, and probably chasing OW 2 and 3 while he's at it. He has a lot of work to do on himself and he hasn't even started it. If you sweep it all under the rug and "resume" the M then you'll get hit with another BD in the near future.
AnotherStander, thank you so much for the advice. I can tell his head is not fully into reconciliation but i didn’t know if that was normal. I did ask him to leave last week as I feel that he needs to understand the reality of what he wants to create. I suspect his announcement to fix things post-IC session is just to buy him more time. What is killing me is that he gets to walk away every week and enjoy his exciting city life, the freedoms that brings, and then come home to his nice house, car, kids every week without the emotional attachment. He really is having his cake, and this has been going on for a year.
I am really at breaking point but I want to save my marriage. My emotional health is taking a battering and i don’t know how long I can continue in this state.
Pommy, we have a saying around here: When he wants to come back you will know. We he doesn't, you will be confused.
So continue to treat your sitch for what it is: dealing with a WAH.
Pommy, we have a saying around here: When he wants to come back you will know. We he doesn't, you will be confused.
So continue to treat your sitch for what it is: dealing with a WAH.
thankyou Steve, it breaks my heart to read that.
Should I ask him to leave? He has no incentive to change his way of life as he has everything the way he wants it. And by not leaving he doesn’t have to deal with the guilt that has been troubling him about the kids. It’s also financially convenient - he knows he will probably have to sell his beloved car (MLC purchase) in order to for us to afford to run 2 households plus his weekly business expenses. He also knows that because he works away in the week, he would have to have the kids every weekend. He already said this wasn’t fair! I said his priority is his kids not his social life, what other solution does he see if he can’t have them during the week? So all in all, leaving is pretty unappealing right now, which is why I think he says he wants to fix things.
Last night he said I need to do what’s best for me. I feel like he is pushing the decision on me and this might be to ease his guilt about the 3 lives he’s going to devastate.
I will be happy to change your thread title if you will tell me what you want it to say.
Pommy, we have a saying around here: When he wants to come back you will know. We he doesn't, you will be confused.
So continue to treat your sitch for what it is: dealing with a WAH.
thankyou Steve, it breaks my heart to read that.
Should I ask him to leave? He has no incentive to change his way of life as he has everything the way he wants it. And by not leaving he doesn’t have to deal with the guilt that has been troubling him about the kids. It’s also financially convenient - he knows he will probably have to sell his beloved car (MLC purchase) in order to for us to afford to run 2 households plus his weekly business expenses. He also knows that because he works away in the week, he would have to have the kids every weekend. He already said this wasn’t fair! I said his priority is his kids not his social life, what other solution does he see if he can’t have them during the week? So all in all, leaving is pretty unappealing right now, which is why I think he says he wants to fix things.
Last night he said I need to do what’s best for me. I feel like he is pushing the decision on me and this might be to ease his guilt about the 3 lives he’s going to devastate.
Pommy do you want him to leave? Or do you just want to use asking him to leave to shake him up? If the former, then yes ask him to leave. (Understand he legally doesn't have to.) If it is the latter, then do not. Manipulation attempts like that are pressure and pursuit. And they almost always backfire.
Pommy do you want him to leave? Or do you just want to use asking him to leave to shake him up? If the former, then yes ask him to leave. (Understand he legally doesn't have to.) If it is the latter, then do not. Manipulation attempts like that are pressure and pursuit. And they almost always backfire.
No I guess I don’t want him to leave, i want to fix things, but I feel that a year is a long time for this indecision and cake eating. My life is on hold while he gets everything he wants. I feel like I have MUG stamped across my forehead. He is very good at keeping me close but not letting me in. Tells me we’ve never had a deeply intimate connection anyway (M 18 yrs), and so I don’t understand why he is hesitant about leaving - other than guilt, fear and convenience. He keeps telling me his gut instinct is telling him to leave, his instinct is telling him he doesn’t love/desire me. He admits it’s fear of unknown and guilt that keeps him here.
I will be happy to change your thread title if you will tell me what you want it to say.
Thank you, how about ‘dealing with WAH who wants his cake and eat it?’. What do U think? everything is such a mess I don’t know how to summarise it in one line!!
Pommy, keep DBing. Trust the process. Do so with consistency and patience. It is the best way forward.
No I guess I don’t want him to leave, i want to fix things,
Fixing things is not an option right now. You've got to quit trying to do that, it's just putting a ton of R pressure on him.
My life is on hold while he gets everything he wants.
So quit waiting. Get out there and live your life. There's a reason we call it "standing" and not "waiting". You can live your life and get out there and have fun and do things while still standing for your M.
Tells me we’ve never had a deeply intimate connection anyway (M 18 yrs)
That's "rewriting of history", a favorite past-time of WAS's. He probably believes it for now. Eventually he'll remember differently.
and so I don’t understand why he is hesitant about leaving - other than guilt, fear and convenience. He keeps telling me his gut instinct is telling him to leave, his instinct is telling him he doesn’t love/desire me. He admits it’s fear of unknown and guilt that keeps him here.
You say you don't understand, yet he already told you! Fear of the unknown, and guilt. I hope that you look at those and say to yourself "no, that's not good enough." Because you are worth far more than that. He has no respect for you right now. You need to get it back.
Fixing things is not an option right now. You've got to quit trying to do that, it's just putting a ton of R pressure on him.
.ok, that does make sense. in October we went a whole month without talking about the R (after he said he wanted to leave). We got closer, we got intimate weekly, I took up a new hobby (rock climbing) that he said he wanted to try with me. But then it went down hill again in early Nov and has been in free fall since.
So quit waiting. Get out there and live your life. There's a reason we call it "standing" and not "waiting". You can live your life and get out there and have fun and do things while still standing for your M.
I guess because I only see him 4/7 days I’ve been keeping my weekends free to spend with him. I used to spend at least 4 hrs every Sat or Sun cycling with friends but I’ve stopped those long rides in preference for spending time with him. I’m planning on a long ride tomorrow with friends
That's "rewriting of history", a favorite past-time of WAS's. He probably believes it for now. Eventually he'll remember differently.
. yes , I’ve had all of that talk of our entire marriage being a farce, and I’ve never been this or that (like I’ve never been girly enough, e.g getting my nails done (Me: “I had my nails done permanently for about 3 years until last Xmas! I guess you never noticed” (or should I have validated at that point
)
You say you don't understand, yet he already told you! Fear of the unknown, and guilt. I hope that you look at those and say to yourself "no, that's not good enough." Because you are worth far more than that. He has no respect for you right now. You need to get it back.
. Thank you, I only want him back if his goal is to let me be his wife, because he wants me, not because he is scared of leaving. I already told him that guilt and fear are not valid reasons to stay.
Pommy, keep DBing. Trust the process. Do so with consistency and patience. It is the best way forward.
Re detaching and DBing, how do,I deal,with affection? what do I do at bedtime, he always kisses and cuddles me? Do I steer clear? When I keep my distance, like I did over Xmas after i uncovered all the lies about the OW, He pursues. And I usually let him in. What if he tries to initiate sex? (Unlikely but he did when I went distant over Xmas - do I knock him back? ).
Pommy, keep DBing. Trust the process. Do so with consistency and patience. It is the best way forward.
Re detaching and DBing, how do,I deal,with affection? what do I do at bedtime, he always kisses and cuddles me? Do I steer clear? When I keep my distance, like I did over Xmas after i uncovered all the lies about the OW, He pursues. And I usually let him in. What if he tries to initiate sex? (Unlikely but he did when I went distant over Xmas - do I knock him back? ).
The rule on affection is easy:
Never initiate it. If he does, you can reciprocate but only do so IF you can so without attaching any meaning or expectations to it. Lots of WASs/WSs use affection to reel their Plan B back in.
One other rule on sex: only give in if he initiates IF you are 100% certain there is no PA. And if there was a PA in the past that he has been tested for STDs SINCE it has ended. You have to protect your health.
in October we went a whole month without talking about the R (after he said he wanted to leave).
I know it seems like a long time but a month is a blip on the radar. When we talk about these things we're talking about performing them for a year or more before it might have an impact on him.
I guess because I only see him 4/7 days I’ve been keeping my weekends free to spend with him. I used to spend at least 4 hrs every Sat or Sun cycling with friends but I’ve stopped those long rides in preference for spending time with him. I’m planning on a long ride tomorrow with friends
Perfect! That's what you should do. Plan activities without him. He fired you as wife, you're no longer responsible for keeping him entertained. We use the boss analogy sometimes, if your boss fired you and then a week later called and wanted you to do something for them, and/or set aside your personal time in case they wanted to do something with you, what would your response be? Probably the middle finger, LOL!
yes , I’ve had all of that talk of our entire marriage being a farce, and I’ve never been this or that (like I’ve never been girly enough, e.g getting my nails done (Me: “I had my nails done permanently for about 3 years until last Xmas! I guess you never noticed” (or should I have validated at that point
Some things you don't validate. When people ask about situations like this (blatant rewriting of history and how to respond) I usually reply that the best response is no response. Simply look at him like a weird eyeball or small hand or something just sprouted in the middle of his forehead. Like you're completely mystified at what just came out of his mouth. Then maybe shake your head slowly and leave the room.
Thank you, I only want him back if his goal is to let me be his wife, because he wants me, not because he is scared of leaving. I already told him that guilt and fear are not valid reasons to stay.
Great! He may very well get there some day, if he does then he will approach you with real regret and remorse, and it will look a lot different than how he's been approaching you.
Re detaching and DBing, how do,I deal,with affection? what do I do at bedtime, he always kisses and cuddles me? Do I steer clear? When I keep my distance, like I did over Xmas after i uncovered all the lies about the OW, He pursues. And I usually let him in. What if he tries to initiate sex? (Unlikely but he did when I went distant over Xmas - do I knock him back? ).
What Steve said mirrors what Michele says in DR. Personally I would recommend cutting him off though. No kissing, no cuddling, no sex. If he pushes for it then just say "given our current situation I really don't feel comfortable with that." Right now he's engaging in heaping helpings of cake-eating. He won't ever learn to miss you as long as it continues. He sees himself as high value and you as extremely low value, like you are blessed just to be in his vicinity. His perception needs adjustment. So you put him on notice that the cake-eating is going to stop. He'll probably pout like a little kid. But this is to protect you, and to communicate to him through actions that this isn't going to play out like he has planned. Then you GAL like crazy. This raises your value in his eyes. You are not the loser pathetically waiting at home for him that he expects. You're leaving the house looking hot, and doing who knows what. You're happy! How can this be? It'll make him question his perception.
AnotherStander.... so much made me smile in your post
. Especially the bit about pouting! (Yes I have seen that one!) . I’ve also had several episodes where he has feared I will walk away but has charmed me back in with proclamations of love/desire. I always fall for it. I feel like a puppet that gets picked up and played with, then dropped back in the toy box when it suits.
I feel a lot more in control this last few weeks in some respects, after the lies, and being bold enough to calmly ask him to leave (even if I’m not sure I meant it, it was a considered response to the situation and not an angry reaction). But my god the emotional pain and anxiety is intense. GAL can feel draining when you’re already drained but I’m working on it. (I’ve got a whole weekend planned without him, but I’ve let him know he’s welcome to join me for certain things if he wants. I know I’ll hit the floor again on Tuesday when he goes away but will just have to deal with that next week)
H went out for ‘quick drink’ at 7pm last night (after working away most of week) , came home smashed 6 hrs later. Dont have an issue with him going out but a courtesy txt would’ve been nice, esp since the pub is 5 mins walk and closes at 11.30. I vented to my friend on WhatsApp for an hour as I was quite angry as usually he would always txt if he was going to be late. He was affectionate when he got home but I didn’t reciprocate, just calmly asked if he’d had a nice evening . More affection this morning but again I held back, Then he pursued me around the bedroom and we ended up.... ugh I’m a bit mad at myself as I feel weak that I couldn’t say no, as I still have in the back of my mind what he said on Monday that he wants to fix things and sex has been an issue for him, and I’m still trying to work out how to detach but not push him away .
OMFG and in his drunken state last night he texted the EAP that he broke contact with on Tuesday and told her how he’d spent all evening telling his mate how much he loved her. He deleted the txt from his phone but it synced with his MacBook and when he showed me something on his Mac earlier his messages window was open and I saw it. Not clever. He’s maintaining he regretted it as soon as he sent it and it’s not the kind of love I’m imagining, but more a friendship love. Still says no PA and hasnt seen her since November - up until today he told me he hadn’t seen her since Aug. So many lies.
What next? So angry right now.
Breathe! Step back and observe. He knows you are angry w/him.
I wonder if he initiated the contact or if she did. Sounds like he might having an emotional affair w/her. I Do you think that is what is going on? I don't buy the old saying "just friends" if he brings that saying to the table. Give them enough rope and they hang themselves. It happens all of the time and they do slip up. Time is on your side.
Pommy, while upsetting it isn't the end of the world. Your situation is really no different than it was before. Also, detachment would be this running off your back like water off a duck.
Also, how you handled it can help or hurt your sitch. For instance, if you were looked "whatever", and moved on he's feel uncontrolled. Believe it or not, sometimes not caring about what they are doing takes the excitement away. It's a weird thing but lots of WASs are attracted to the taboo nature of As, EA or PA. When the LBS says, do whatever you want Sometimes that will shake the WAS out because the "permission" suddenly takes the flair away from the A. It also makes the LBS wonder why you don't care anymore. It makes them curious and start reengaging because they expect you to be angry and upset.
The lack of trying to control him, even in matters looked this, is huge. Not only for the effect it can have on him, but because trying to control someone else, because it is impossible, is very confining for you.
So I would just moved on from this, don't let him see you are upset about. You are on a journey to self improvement that will make EAP pale in comparison to you! Become the spouse only a total fool would leave!!
Pommy, I'm just joining this thread and want to tell you how sorry I am you are dealing with this. My husband had an EA and PA with a good friend of mine. Reading what you have posted, your husband seems to have definitely had at least an EA with her. And if they have broken contact, it can take at least six months for the withdrawal stage to end. Have you read the book "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass? She explains so well the affects of an A on the brain and dopamine levels. These relationships never get out of the just dating phase since they never experience real life, and so they become addictions that require another hit to get those feelings again.
Anyway, I am also working on detachment and finally getting a life of my own. You're not the only one for sure! We are in this together.
Breathe! Step back and observe. He knows you are angry w/him.
I wonder if he initiated the contact or if she did. Sounds like he might having an emotional affair w/her. I Do you think that is what is going on? I don't buy the old saying "just friends" if he brings that saying to the table. Give them enough rope and they hang themselves. It happens all of the time and they do slip up. Time is on your side.
Definitely an EA. Every day brings a new revelation, and I now know that they have been back in regular contact sine at least October -phone calls, WhatsApp etc and he just scrubs the evidence off his phone before he gets home every week. Even when I asked him about any contact back in November he lied and said he hadn’t spoken in months and months, and he’s kept that story going since then. When he slipped up and I saw on his iPad in mid December that he had called her, he said it was only one call and it was about a job opportunity and they didn’t talk on a personal level. So many lies!
Also, how you handled it can help or hurt your sitch. For instance, if you were looked "whatever", and moved on he's feel uncontrolled. Believe it or not, sometimes not caring about what they are doing takes the excitement away. It's a weird thing but lots of WASs are attracted to the taboo nature of As, EA or PA. When the LBS says, do whatever you want Sometimes that will shake the WAS out because the "permission" suddenly takes the flair away from the A. .
We were due to go to a party together 2 hrs after I saw the “I love you text”. He asked if he should still come and I said no actually I’d rather go on my own. I came home at 2am and slept in the spare room. He came to me the next morning, I refrained from bringing anything up and let him do the talking. Says he’s confused, but again said he would tell me where he is any time of day or night when he is away. I just shrugged and said I don’t really want a relationship based on surveillance and mistrust. I’ve backed off but he has also. We spent the afternoon out with kids but we were not close or affectionate in any way. Now I feel crappy as he goes away tomorrow and we are so distant already. Just need to focus on detachment I guess?
Pommy, I'm just joining this thread and want to tell you how sorry I am you are dealing with this. My husband had an EA and PA with a good friend of mine. Reading what you have posted, your husband seems to have definitely had at least an EA with her. And if they have broken contact, it can take at least six months for the withdrawal stage to end. Have you read the book "Not Just Friends" by Dr. Shirley Glass? She explains so well the affects of an A on the brain and dopamine levels. These relationships never get out of the just dating phase since they never experience real life, and so they become addictions that require another hit to get those feelings again.
Anyway, I am also working on detachment and finally getting a life of my own. You're not the only one for sure! We are in this together.
Thanks OG, it’s comforting knowing that what me and H are both experiencing is normal, and I appreciate your support also. His IC did explain to him about the dopamine and addiction side of this. I hope he goes back to see her as he has only had one appt. I’m trying to detach and not show him any upset but the message I saw feels like another twist of the knife.
How do I deal with the anger and resentment I feel? I’ve just re-read a load of txt messages from H in Dec that are lies, lies and more lies to cover up his EA, where he made me feel broken and paranoid because I found evidence he’d been in contact. He made me feel bad for not trusting him. I strongly feel like I want him to leave but I don’t know if that is just a further reaction to what I saw at the weekend. (ILY txt to the EAP)
I’m sure I’m not the only one who hates their WAS right now and is wondering why they want to keep them.
How do I deal with the anger and resentment I feel? I’ve just re-read a load of txt messages from H in Dec that are lies, lies and more lies to cover up his EA, where he made me feel broken and paranoid because I found evidence he’d been in contact. He made me feel bad for not trusting him. I strongly feel like I want him to leave but I don’t know if that is just a further reaction to what I saw at the weekend. (ILY txt to the EAP)
I’m sure I’m not the only one who hates their WAS right now and is wondering why they want to keep them.
Pommy the problem is that you are on a roller-coaster of emotions. Right now you hate him. Tomorrow you will be in a panic that you are losing him and can't live without him. And then there are infinite states in-between those two extremes. We tell LBSs around her to never act out of emotion, as little good usually comes out of that. Not sure if it was you or another poster, but someone was struggling with the idea of asking their WAS to leave. My question is always the same: do you really want them to leave?
In your case, my guess is deep down that you do not. You are hurt and angry. Once the hurt and anger naturally begin to recede, then you he will still be gone. And there will be nothing less attractive and damaging to your sitch like begging him to come back.
Breathe. Take some time. Always try to respond, not react.
How do I deal with the anger and resentment I feel? I’ve just re-read a load of txt messages from H in Dec that are lies, lies and more lies to cover up his EA, where he made me feel broken and paranoid because I found evidence he’d been in contact. He made me feel bad for not trusting him. I strongly feel like I want him to leave but I don’t know if that is just a further reaction to what I saw at the weekend. (ILY txt to the EAP)
I’m sure I’m not the only one who hates their WAS right now and is wondering why they want to keep them.
Pommy the problem is that you are on a roller-coaster of emotions. Right now you hate him. Tomorrow you will be in a panic that you are losing him and can't live without him. And then there are infinite states in-between those two extremes. We tell LBSs around her to never act out of emotion, as little good usually comes out of that. Not sure if it was you or another poster, but someone was struggling with the idea of asking their WAS to leave. My question is always the same: do you really want them to leave?
In your case, my guess is deep down that you do not. You are hurt and angry. Once the hurt and anger naturally begin to recede, then you he will still be gone. And there will be nothing less attractive and damaging to your sitch like begging him to come back.
Breathe. Take some time. Always try to respond, not react.
I think Pommy I have the same thoughts, and this is the advice I come back too, above. No, our spouse are not very attractive and lovable right now. There's not much that's desirable in their behavior. BUT once I divorce, it's done. So I am trying to really work on myself, my healthy positive mental attitude, and keep steering the focus back to what I want for my life. I have got to get off the roller coaster before I make such a huge decision.
If I divorced him today, no one would blame me. It would be totally understandable. But would I have regrets because I didn't get to that healthy place first? That I didn't try everything first? I can leave at anytime (or kick him out). i just have to be really clear on what I want first. And being the best me I can be. And I haven't been that for so long, I cant remember exactly what that is. I am a little farther down the road from BD than you are, so I still get frustrated, but my vision is a little more clear.
I’ve also had several episodes where he has feared I will walk away but has charmed me back in with proclamations of love/desire. I always fall for it. I feel like a puppet that gets picked up and played with, then dropped back in the toy box when it suits.
That is an excellent analogy! That's what you are to him right now. Like I said before- low value. He has no respect for you. So you need to work on getting the respect back. You are worth far more than the kind of treatment you are getting from him. DEMAND respect! Demand it through your actions, not words.
GAL can feel draining when you’re already drained but I’m working on it.
It is very difficult to do at first. I had to pretty much drag myself out of the house kicking and screaming. I just wanted to roll up in a corner somewhere. But it is your quickest path to recovering and re-building your self-esteem.
H went out for ‘quick drink’ at 7pm last night (after working away most of week) , came home smashed 6 hrs later. Dont have an issue with him going out but a courtesy txt would’ve been nice, esp since the pub is 5 mins walk and closes at 11.30.
Well you are right that a courtesy text would have been appropriate. But guess what, you're not going to get it. Why? Because like I keep saying, he's lost all respect for you. He doesn't care about your feelings and will trample on them at will. How you deal with it is by assuming he will behave like an errant teen and to leave him to it. You want to start getting some respect back? Then work a deal with him where YOU get to go out on certain nights and do what YOU want too. Maybe he gets Monday and Wednesday, and you get Tuesday and Thursday. Or maybe you each get one day, whatever works. On your days he watches the kids and you go do whatever you want and you don't tell him what you're doing. Maybe it's just going to a Starbucks and reading, but the point is he will wonder. You will become mysterious, and your value goes up in his eyes.
He was affectionate when he got home but I didn’t reciprocate
Good.
More affection this morning but again I held back, Then he pursued me around the bedroom and we ended up.... ugh I’m a bit mad at myself as I feel weak that I couldn’t say no, as I still have in the back of my mind what he said on Monday that he wants to fix things and sex has been an issue for him
Except now sex is just cake-eating for him. It's not about saving the M for him, it's about sexual gratification, period. He's using you.
and I’m still trying to work out how to detach but not push him away .
Sandi's rules cover that.
How do I deal with the anger and resentment I feel?
Find other outlets. Come here and vent, vent to friends (not mutual friends, it needs to be friends that have no contact with H), join a gym, take a boxing class or jiu jitsu or something very physical.
I’ve just re-read a load of txt messages from H in Dec that are lies, lies and more lies to cover up his EA, where he made me feel broken and paranoid because I found evidence he’d been in contact. He made me feel bad for not trusting him.
This is what lying cheaters do. Are you familiar with the term "gaslighting"? If not, Google it and read up on it.
Breathe. Take some time. Always try to respond, not react.
Didn’t do very well on that tonight. I asked if OW had responded to his drunken ILY text - he said no, but then I followed up with more questions about when they’d seen each other etc. It got a bit hostile and he got defensive and faltered on his story, I know there are still lies in there.
He says he doesn’t want any further contact with her and that he wants a clear head with no distractions and to talk to his IC about why he feels like this. He doesn’t know if he is in love with her or not. The cynical side of me says he thinks he’ll have a clear conscience -esp for the sake of the children and his family - if he can walk away from the M and say there was no one else involved
I think Pommy I have the same thoughts, and this is the advice I come back too, above. No, our spouse are not very attractive and lovable right now. There's not much that's desirable in their behavior. BUT once I divorce, it's done. So I am trying to really work on myself, my healthy positive mental attitude, and keep steering the focus back to what I want for my life. I have got to get off the roller coaster before I make such a huge decision.
If I divorced him today, no one would blame me. It would be totally understandable. But would I have regrets because I didn't get to that healthy place first? That I didn't try everything first? I can leave at anytime (or kick him out). i just have to be really clear on what I want first. And being the best me I can be. And I haven't been that for so long, I cant remember exactly what that is. I am a little farther down the road from BD than you are, so I still get frustrated, but my vision is a little more clear.
That makes sense. I feel in a very reactive place right now. The EA started 12 months ago but had supposedly ended in March - he put an end to it to work on his marriage. But at some point it gained momentum again and he’s kept it covered up.
I feel like we are back where we were 12 months ago - not communicating, not in any way close or affectionate, it was the rock bottom point of our marriage. I was trapped in an identity called “mum”, I got my love from the kids, H never made me feel like a W and equally I wasn’t treating him like a H. We let our relationship die. He then got a job in the city and life became exciting again. Meanwhile I was trapped at home still with the kids while he went away every week. I’ve tried to carve out a life and I’ve taken up new hobbies and am socialising more, but I guess I’ve still acted as the clingy wife as I’ve pandered to him all year in my quest to try and be his W again.
Anyway, I went to the gym last night. I have heaps of gym equipment here so usually work out at home, alone. But last night decided to go to the gym, told him I was going as it was more sociable!
Except now sex is just cake-eating for him. It's not about saving the M for him, it's about sexual gratification, period. He's using you .
Yes he is, and I feel like that afterwards. There’s no emotion in it for him, it’s purely transactional. I want to feel connection and I don’t feel that.
This is what lying cheaters do. Are you familiar with the term "gaslighting"? If not, Google it and read up on it.
Gosh I am being gaslighted. My IC said the same last week as I was leaving my session, and I didn’t know what it meant or how significant it was. When I discovered he had been calling her (I went through his iPad and found multiple channels of communication with her) I actually said to him “for months you’ve made me feel like I’m losing my mind as you continually denied there had been any contact”. He went ballistic that I’d logged into his accounts, told me “once again you’ve made 2+2=5” . And even then, because I’d only found evidence of one phone call, he maintained it had been only one call. Fast forward 3 weeks and I now know that it’s been regular calls for months. “I’m not hiding anything from you “ he had said...
Ugh, I really don’t like my H any more. He’s away now for 3 days. Usually at this stage I feel incredibly anxious, but at the moment I feel eerily calm, and I don’t know why!
H has travelled away for work today for 3 days and messaged me “Hi babe, hope you have a lovely day xx”. I just don’t know how to respond, but have ignored it for 3 hrs. It’s not in my nature to ignore him but I’m so hurt right now because of the ILY txt he sent to OW, but more so the lies. Why is he doing this?
H has travelled away for work today for 3 days and messaged me “Hi babe, hope you have a lovely day xx”. I just don’t know how to respond, but have ignored it for 3 hrs. It’s not in my nature to ignore him but I’m so hurt right now because of the ILY txt he sent to OW, but more so the lies. Why is he doing this?
Why does his text demand a response. I see no question in it. Ignoring it would be deleting it without reading it. You didn't ignore it. You read it. It doesn't require a response. Use this as an opportunity to work on detachment. A detached person would read it and move on.
ok point taken! Not replying makes me uncomfortable. But also I don’t feel I have anything to say. Just want to make sure I’m not being reactive , I.e deliberately not replying because I’m hurt/angry. Keep telling myself he fired me as his W so why would I put effort into correspondence, but then again blanking him completely doesn’t feel right. That said, I can think of times when he was out with OW and refused to answer his phone all evening.
DBing feels completely uncomfortable at first. But you know what makes it more comfortable? When you start seeing results.
Don't focus on the results with HIM, focus on the results with YOU. Once you don't feel on the hook for every one of his words, actions, feelings, tick, etc you will start feeling free. DBing is freeing to the LBS. And sometimes, sometimes the side-effect is that it the WAS will wake-up, realize what they are losing, and come back to the marriage.
Pommy, your goal through DBing should be to save yourself, first and foremost. The saving of the MR should be a distance second.
DBing feels completely uncomfortable at first. But you know what makes it more comfortable? When you start seeing results.
Don't focus on the results with HIM, focus on the results with YOU. Once you don't feel on the hook for every one of his words, actions, feelings, tick, etc you will start feeling free. DBing is freeing to the LBS. And sometimes, sometimes the side-effect is that it the WAS will wake-up, realize what they are losing, and come back to the marriage.
Pommy, your goal through DBing should be to save yourself, first and foremost. The saving of the MR should be a distance second.
Didn’t reply to txt, received an email at 3pm and didn’t reply to that either. He called me at 6pm, I deliberated whether to answer but I did answer and felt quite pleased when he asked if I’d received his txt and email and I could say yes . The fact that this played on my mind all day obviously tells me I have a lot of work to do with detachment, but I do feel better that I didn’t react and send back a message telling him I don’t want to talk to him because of how much he’s hurt me.
I saw my therapist last night and she tells me everything is about him, his double life of city excitement (and EAP) and comfy home life. I have endured this for 12 months, and I am ready to stand up and state my boundaries. This is where I’m struggling. I would like a boundary in relation to the EAP but in my head it sounds like an ultimatum - if you choose to continue in any form of relationship with the EAP then I will take steps to end the marriage. And right now I strongly feel that is my only option. Why else would I stay in a M where he continues to live this double life. That’s not asking him to make a commitment to me as I can’t control that, but I am no longer prepared to continue with her in the frame. Is this a wise move? I know there would be no going back if he chooses not to end the EA. What would be a better boundary that doesn’t threaten divorce? I genuinely don’t know right now whether I love him or not .
If you set a boundary, then you need to follow through and not do it just to get a reaction out of him. If you don't follow through on your boundaries, he will know that you are just bluffing and trying to control/manipulate him.
When you discuss boundaries w/him (if you opt to do so), you must do it from a place of calm. You have to remain calm and think of the discussions as a business matter, i.e., which means...keep the emotions in check.
Give yourself a couple of days before you do anything and if you still feel strongly about setting a particular boundary, then do it...but remain as calm as you can.
I’ve been thinking about it since last week, and I keep asking myself am I prepared to stay in this toxic R whilst there is an OW/EA that has been going on for a year, while he works away every week. And I tell myself that no I am not prepared to do this any more. And then I know that the only outcome might be that we S/D and that makes me sad but at the same time I seriously do question why I want to stay as I don’t like him any more
I’ve been thinking about it since last week, and I keep asking myself am I prepared to stay in this toxic R whilst there is an OW/EA that has been going on for a year, while he works away every week. And I tell myself that no I am not prepared to do this any more. And then I know that the only outcome might be that we S/D and that makes me sad but at the same time I seriously do question why I want to stay as I don’t like him any more
He will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away.
He will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away.
I’m just apprehensive now, he’s home in an hour. Perhaps I should focus on me and detachment rather than making a bold statement about leaving, or asking him why he has re-added EAP to his phone contacts while away (synced with iPad left at home)
Pommy, my STRONG recommendation is to focus on you and detach. Do not say anything about the EAP in the phone contacts. Walk away in your head. There is no need to make any bold proclamations at this point. Give yourself some time, focus on you, be done with his $hit and show him with your actions and attitude. Give it a little time to be 100% sure you can stick with the boundary you're considering. If nothing else, how could you possibly believe him at this point if he says OK, it is over with her? Or if he says sorry, I can't break it off with her-- what exactly will you do?
I am in somewhat the same position (as you know!!) and when I told him I thought he should leave he said no, which then put me in a quandary. I think you want to have the time and emotional space to really think through any path you want to take and be sure you have a plan to enact, regardless of what he says.
Hang in there.
Pommy, my STRONG recommendation is to focus on you and detach. Do not say anything about the EAP in the phone contacts. Walk away in your head. There is no need to make any bold proclamations at this point. Give yourself some time, focus on you, be done with his $hit and show him with your actions and attitude. Give it a little time to be 100% sure you can stick with the boundary you're considering. If nothing else, how could you possibly believe him at this point if he says OK, it is over with her? Or if he says sorry, I can't break it off with her-- what exactly will you do?
I am in somewhat the same position (as you know!!) and when I told him I thought he should leave he said no, which then put me in a quandary. I think you want to have the time and emotional space to really think through any path you want to take and be sure you have a plan to enact, regardless of what he says.
Hang in there.
Yes, I am thinking Pommy if you (and I) decide in our heads we cannot accept it. Prepare for a new life and be able to be on our own, supporting ourselves and children, emotionally, mentally, financially. I have realized I don't need to make some big bold announcement. It's for me. I am working on detaching and focusing on myself. Otherwise too much of my focus and power is going to him, and then that is what my happiness is dependent on.
Of course, it would be great if this results in his choosing to change his behavior and desires toward me. But, I realize I don't want to be anyone's Plan B. I don't want to be what he settles for because he is too afraid to go out on his own. Nothing stinks more than that. Not even the affair.
Pommy,
I have caught bits and pieces of your sitch but took the time to read through it today. I'm so sorry you're here and going through this. You are absolutely right in that H is in a crazy head space right now. I can see you doing some of the things that I have been guilty of doing in the heat of emotion. Please, please, please stop checking the ipad, phone, computer and others. You have asked posters for advice on how to detach and how to "fix" it. The BEST way you can begin the process of healing and detaching (for your own mental health) is to stop looking. I'm not going to lie, it will be excruciatingly hard at first. Especially when you see a glimpse of something that might be related. DON'T DO IT! If you can stop gaining knowledge about what he's doing and where, it becomes much easier to find your own balance and peace. I think this is the core of detachment. You'll read a lot of "he could tell you he just had a massive orgy and you just shrug your shoulders and walk away". Maybe that is the ideal detachment, but I know that no matter how detached I would be from the situation that would still sting like h*ll. For me, detachment is more about finding your inner peace and balance without H. You can do this - one step at a time friend. I will try and keep up with you and good luck!
KG
Pommy, my STRONG recommendation is to focus on you and detach. Do not say anything about the EAP in the phone contacts. Walk away in your head. There is no need to make any bold proclamations at this point. Give yourself some time, focus on you, be done with his $hit and show him with your actions and attitude. Give it a little time to be 100% sure you can stick with the boundary you're considering. If nothing else, how could you possibly believe him at this point if he says OK, it is over with her? Or if he says sorry, I can't break it off with her-- what exactly will you do?
I am in somewhat the same position (as you know!!) and when I told him I thought he should leave he said no, which then put me in a quandary. I think you want to have the time and emotional space to really think through any path you want to take and be sure you have a plan to enact, regardless of what he says.
Hang in there.
May I screwed up big time as I challenged him on it when he got home. He denied contacting her but I just don’t know what is truth and what is a lie any more. We then got into a discussion about the lies and I know that will just push him further away. He then said he knows he wants to leave as although we have a fantastic relationship the main ingredient is missing (attraction/romantic love). I tried to validate like mad and not inflict my opinion or tell how we could work in it. This did change the emotion of the conversation from something hostile and he softened up a lot. We went to bed, had a hug. This morning he got up to take the kids to school then came back and we had along talk about what he feels/doesn’t feel. I tried to validate as much as poss. When he asked how I felt about something I was open and he actually validated back!! That doesn’t usually happen! However, when I told him I felt that him working away had prevented us from giving us a chance last year he disagreed and said that was nothing to do with it. Then I mentioned the kids missing him (they genuinely do -D13 was upset last night as she missed him and said she prefers it when we’re all together as a family. I think she is definitely picking up on things and worrying about what’s going on). So he said I was just making him feel guilty by telling him that, and I said I’m making you aware of how they feel. I praised him for working in the city to earn good money and give us a good lifestyle but added that we’d all rather be was here, even if the income was less. And I asked him if he would consider getting a job locally and he said it won’t make a difference to him leaving. I got a bit upset at one point and he got angry that I kept going on about the same thing about trying to make it work and how he makes a decision to leave and then I guilt him into staying. So it didn’t end well. I apologised and said I wouldn’t talk about the R any more and that i was just finding it hard to accept it was over.
He goes to his IC on Monday but said he wished it was today, as he wants to understand why he feels the need to leave. We both joked about how exhausted we are with the whole situation and how it would be great to have a simple life, we acknowledged we have it all, the perfect home and family but the glue that holds us together is missing.
Yes, I am thinking Pommy if you (and I) decide in our heads we cannot accept it. Prepare for a new life and be able to be on our own, supporting ourselves and children, emotionally, mentally, financially. I have realized I don't need to make some big bold announcement. It's for me. I am working on detaching and focusing on myself. Otherwise too much of my focus and power is going to him, and then that is what my happiness is dependent on.
Of course, it would be great if this results in his choosing to change his behavior and desires toward me. But, I realize I don't want to be anyone's Plan B. I don't want to be what he settles for because he is too afraid to go out on his own. Nothing stinks more than that. Not even the affair.
i agree, I only want him to stay because he loves me, not because of guilt or fear, not even just for the kids. But I do feel that with working away and this OW we never have ourselves a chance to rebuild and that’s what I find hard to accept. But I guess the tactic was wrong all along. It wasn’t about ‘us’ rebuilding a marriage we should be getting to a healthy stage of self-acceptance, independence and confidence to be individuals. And then see if we can still work together.
My issue is ALWAYS the 3 days he is away. I can make all the plans in the world but I still feel anxiety inside and this manifests itself in the way I project to him. He said today when we speak on the phone it sounds as though my questions about what he has been doing aren’t to do with interest but more interrogation. I agree, but he did acknowledge he hasn’t made things easy for me because of the EA.
It’s weird because 12 months ago I was pretty much emotionally checked out and I couldn’t care less what he was up to. We could go 2-3 days without speaking. I need to let go emotionally like I did back then , but I’m finding it so hard.
Pommy,
I have caught bits and pieces of your sitch but took the time to read through it today. I'm so sorry you're here and going through this. You are absolutely right in that H is in a crazy head space right now. I can see you doing some of the things that I have been guilty of doing in the heat of emotion. Please, please, please stop checking the ipad, phone, computer and others. You have asked posters for advice on how to detach and how to "fix" it. The BEST way you can begin the process of healing and detaching (for your own mental health) is to stop looking. I'm not going to lie, it will be excruciatingly hard at first. Especially when you see a glimpse of something that might be related. DON'T DO IT! If you can stop gaining knowledge about what he's doing and where, it becomes much easier to find your own balance and peace. I think this is the core of detachment. You'll read a lot of "he could tell you he just had a massive orgy and you just shrug your shoulders and walk away". Maybe that is the ideal detachment, but I know that no matter how detached I would be from the situation that would still sting like h*ll. For me, detachment is more about finding your inner peace and balance without H. You can do this - one step at a time friend. I will try and keep up with you and good luck!
KG
Hi KG thanks for your words of support. I went through a long period of not checking his phone, business receipts, iPad etc as all it did was fuel my anxiety. I’ve never asked to have him on Find My Friends as I felt it never proved anything. I stopped asking who he was out with/what time he got in etc when he was working away. I’d let him tell me but never probed. Unfortunately there have been two occasions recently where I have looked at his iPad in desperation for knowing what is going on, and I’ve started to ask again if he’s been in contact with OW. He gives me so many mixed messages - he’s leaving but never does, he is leaving but changes his mind hours later; he says he can’t see a future for us then next day says he wants to fix things. I am all over the place. I thought seeing the evidence that counters his lies would help. But it hasn’t. I know he’s lied but it hasn’t changed anything, other than make me feel like he’s a real sh1t! It’s difficult to shrug and say whatever when you know you are being wronged. I’m still struggling to accept that I have to accept his behaviour and disrespect, when if it was my own daughter I’d advise her the complete opposite.
True detachment is the hardest thing ever. I can fake the hell out of it. There are days, and more in a row every week, where I really am detached. But really getting my head and heart out of his wake has been a struggle. KristinG pretty much told me the same thing because I've been struggling with it. I deactivated my facebook since I couldn't even stop myself when I took him out of my feed. I've talked to him about paying for his own phone since I'm not really feeling like bank rolling his way of communicating to his OW. I know logically and in my gut where he's going and what he's doing when he does it. But it's so much easier to say eff it. You do you I'm going to do me when I don't have to look the evidence in the eye so to speak. And my worst days are the day after I see the old H peeking out. Because I know it's just a fallacy right now.
But to your point of why should you put up with this and accept it; is what my H (and your H) doing abso-effing-lutely pathetic and soooo disrespectful? Hell yes. Before DBing I told him exactly how I felt about that. He got the tears, and begging at first and then a WHOLE lot of anger. He knows he's being a terrible person. He just doesn't care. So there's no point in arguing. There's no point at all in drawing a line in the sand. I've tried and I learned. He'll run right through it while making eye contact with me and then lie about it. But I've only been at this a couple of months. I found out about the affair in November. He BD'd in December. You've been at this a long time. You have every right to throw in the towel, but I agree with the lot of the other posters. You have to do that from a place of peace. You need to be in the head space of ambivalence first, then you know your choice is a choice from a place of logic not emotion. When you're really done, you know. I know this from my daughter's father not my current H. It was like "oh, ok. well we're done then." No anger. No sadness. Just ok, we're done. I'm done. This is done. You having your heart and emotions so rocked by him means you're not there. You're not done. So you gotta keep DBing and working on really detaching. We got this.
Hi Pommy,
Wow, I just still see soooooo many similarities between our two sitches. I have so much empathy for you!
A couple of months ago (when I still thought it was just an EA, not a PA) I did the exact same thing you just did-- entered into an R talk out of anger, brought up the kids and how much this will hurt them, etc. My H probably responded exactly the same as yours. A vet here told me don't worry about it, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and carry on with doing what you need to do. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see... there just is no point in asking about what he's doing with OW because, as you said, there is no way to know what is a lie and what is the truth. So why bother getting yourself into the discussion?
Another thing a vet told me is that everything my H is saying is following the exact same WS script. ILYB, the romantic feelings just aren't there, they can never come back, I deserve to be happy, the kids will be fine, we can stay friends after we D... blah blah blah. That helped me to realize this is a thing HE is going through and really has very little to do with me. Maybe that helps you too? You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. Feelings can change-- you know this and obviously they can because he was madly in love with you once-- but right now he doesn't feel those feelings towards you, and can't as long as he has his thoughts occupied by OW.
Hang in there. Just like the wise vet (sorry I can't remember who it was!) told me-- don't waste time worrying about it. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and carry on with doing what you need to do-- detaching, 180s, GAL, validating, and avoiding R talks.
Hi Pommy,
Wow, I just still see soooooo many similarities between our two sitches. I have so much empathy for you!
A couple of months ago (when I still thought it was just an EA, not a PA) I did the exact same thing you just did-- entered into an R talk out of anger, brought up the kids and how much this will hurt them, etc. My H probably responded exactly the same as yours. A vet here told me don't worry about it, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and carry on with doing what you need to do. Don't believe anything you hear and only half of what you see... there just is no point in asking about what he's doing with OW because, as you said, there is no way to know what is a lie and what is the truth. So why bother getting yourself into the discussion?
Another thing a vet told me is that everything my H is saying is following the exact same WS script. ILYB, the romantic feelings just aren't there, they can never come back, I deserve to be happy, the kids will be fine, we can stay friends after we D... blah blah blah. That helped me to realize this is a thing HE is going through and really has very little to do with me. Maybe that helps you too? You didn't break him, therefore you can't fix him. Feelings can change-- you know this and obviously they can because he was madly in love with you once-- but right now he doesn't feel those feelings towards you, and can't as long as he has his thoughts occupied by OW.
Hang in there. Just like the wise vet (sorry I can't remember who it was!) told me-- don't waste time worrying about it. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and carry on with doing what you need to do-- detaching, 180s, GAL, validating, and avoiding R talks.
Hi May, I’m getting increasingly p1$$ed off with his behaviour. I know I can’t fix him and just need to fix myself. But after Thursday night’s decision to leave, yesterday he was back with the full-on biggest, longest hugs, stroking my hair, kissing my head etc. I need that so much but I have learnt that it doesn’t mean he suddenly wants me. Last night I was getting ready to go out and he said “that’s nice underwear, have I seen that before?” .Wtf, he’s not interested in me in my underwear so why comment?
As for the OW, he’s in a group chat with her and she’s arranged a night out next week while he’s in the city which he’s accepted. (Yes I checked his phone after he handed it to me to look at something so I had a sneaky look at his msg.) I’ll just be right home looking after his children while he’s out with her!
I feel it would be easier if he moved out because I am struggling with paranoia about her and I’m struggling to not get into arguments about her, which I know isn’t helping me. I know I need to rein in my reactions and just keep my mouth shut!
May, remind me again why your H doesn’t want to leave? Is he like mine - doesn’t know what he wants, even though he talks about leaving all the time? X
So H has come back from his 2nd IC appt and announced he wants to separate (he came back from the first one and announced he wanted to fix his marriage. I knew that wasn’t sitting comfortably with him and in the 2 weeks since the last appt nothing has changed, in fact he’s been more distant and erratic with his emotions).
I listened to him talk about what he felt, what was discussed in the session, validated when I could but otherwise kept very quiet. I then had a little cry then composed myself and said it wasn’t what I wanted but wouldn’t stand in his way. So then he said when I talk like that it makes him feel guilty and doubt everything again. However , it is still very much the case that he sees no future for us as he is looking for romantic love, etc. From what he described about his IC appt, the therapist suggests that when he married me he was looking for a companion, a ‘safe’ bet, someone who would be a good mother, and now his needs have changed. So this ties in with his belief that we’ve never had a good sexual connection. So I feel pretty low that all I have been for the last 15 yrs is a mother to his kids and nothing more, and now he wants to find a woman with whom he can have passion as he no longer needs to factor in the child/mother part.
I’m 50/50 on whether to let this go or whether to fight. I don’t see how we can reignite a passion that he doesn’t think was ever there. He again has said he’s worried that he will never find that level of friendship that he has with me, that the grass isn’t greener etc. I just had to ponder and say well the grass might be a different shade of green...or it might be brown. I said whatever happens we will both be ok, everyone comes out the other side.
I just don’t know whether to try and accept this or to keep battling on...11 months we’ve been in this limbo
Assuming I do want to continue in a marriage, do I change what I have been doing ? Or is if business as usual? (Detach, validate etc)?
He says he will look for somewhere to live? Do I help him with that and be supportive, or do I refuse to support on the basis I don’t believe it is right?
Hi Pommy,
Here's a big HUG. I am so sorry you are going through this. It is awful and unfair and BS. Here are a few thoughts for you:
-- His IC sounds like an idiot. Just saying.
-- Your H is very, very confused. He's grabbing onto straws. Last week he wants to work on the M, this week he wants to S. Don't let yourself get drawn into the maelstrom in his head.
-- What do you mean by "supporting" your H in looking for somewhere to live? I think I've read here over and over that vets recommend saying something along the lines of "this isn't what I want, but I'm not going to stop you" etc. (Sounds like that is exactly what you did. Kudos!!) You can simply validate what he thinks at this exact moment he wants (moving out) and then move on with whatever you were going to be doing anyway. You don't need to lift a finger to actually help him find a place, unless you decide that is what YOU want.
-- You are so much more than just a mother to his kids... write all those things down. What makes Pommy the amazing, special person you are? Do NOT get sucked into his redefinition of your lives together. it is total BS and from reading on these boards something every WS does. It helps them to justify their own behaviors-- the M was always doomed, we never really connected, I can never feel like this again with my spouse, my situation is unique and different because this is true love, blah blah blah. For me, it really helped to understand that all this is a basic script all these WSs follow.
-- I recommend not talking about her at all. BluWave said to me and I repeat it in my head like a mantra-- she is NOTHING to me. I am the wife, I am the mother of these amazing children, and this is MY family. I am the queen of my castle. Always. (If you want I will find in my thread and repost. I have it saved on my phone to walk through when I need it.)
I feel it would be easier if he moved out because I am struggling with paranoia about her and I’m struggling to not get into arguments about her, which I know isn’t helping me. I know I need to rein in my reactions and just keep my mouth shut!
May, remind me again why your H doesn’t want to leave? Is he like mine - doesn’t know what he wants, even though he talks about leaving all the time? X
He is scared of all that a S/D would entail-- hurting the kids as his primary fear. His recent convo with my MIL has I think also made real a lot more potential fears he was dismissing-- financial, shame and disappointment among friends and family, a lot more around hurting me and the kids, etc. He has been saying since he gave me the final BD a couple of weeks ago (confessing to the 2 year PA instead of a much shorter EA) us to come to a decision "together" and I think in his mind all along once we got to this position I would be the one to tell him to go (but also somehow in the end would be happy for him and we'd still be best friends? Just another example of the fantastical storm of what is happening inside his head). Last night he said his two biggest fears are that I won't really be able to forgive him and that he won't ever really get over AP.
My DB coach said the grass is greener where you water it.
I 100% understand that it would be so, so much easier if he was gone to stop struggling with the paranoia and deal with this whiplash of a H. (Yours totally sounds like that-- one day checking out your underwear and the next day he married a mother figure? Give me a break.) I have been spending this time trying to get more and more OK with the idea that it is really over, he will move out, how can I protect myself and my children through that process? I do feel like I'm starting to detach more and more. Can you work on that? The good thing about being detached is that then it doesn't matter if he is in your house or not-- his behavior, mood swings, new announcements, text threads, etc don't affect YOU. You do you and let his craziness stay outside of your bubble.
Hang in there. I know exactly how awful this all is. I'm there too if it helps. Hugs.
Most IC's are just there to listen and validate. Your H came out of the first session wanting to work on the M, and the 2nd wanting a divorce. That's not a reflection on the IC, it's his scrambled mind. He's confused and in turmoil. The IC probably just validates whether crazy stuff is coming out of his mouth. LBS's often think that if the WAS gets in IC then they will "talk some sense" into them and save the M. It never, ever happens. They listen. They validate. They tell the client/ patient what they want to hear. They collect their money. That's it.
.
-- Your H is very, very confused. He's grabbing onto straws. Last week he wants to work on the M, this week he wants to S. Don't let yourself get drawn into the maelstrom in his head.
I’m learning that he’s all over the place. I’ve had everything in the last two weeks from fixing marriage to divorce, to loving EAP to not loving EAP; offering transparency to concealing correspondence. Within an hour of him being home today, he was already expressing his uncertainty about separation.
-- You are so much more than just a mother to his kids... write all those things down. What makes Pommy the amazing, special person you are? Do NOT get sucked into his redefinition of your lives together. it is total BS and from reading on these boards something every WS does. It helps them to justify their own behaviors-- the M was always doomed, we never really connected, I can never feel like this again with my spouse, my situation is unique and different because this is true love, blah blah blah. For me, it really helped to understand that all this is a basic script all these WSs follow.
I feel like - and have for many years- that I was never enough for him, like he always wanted more. Well fact is, he chose me, he pursued me for a year, he told his mum he’d met the girl he was going to marry, but it took him a year to get me on a date after he’d told his mum about me. He says life with me was exciting - adventurous - I opened his eyes to travel, we lived overseas for a couple of years, and lived the dream. Then we had kids...you probably know the rest. So I don’t completely buy into this theory that we never connected...but we did neglect our marriage, putting kids and work first, that’s for sure. Today he’s told me he’s always felt like he was my protector, he never felt like that with other GFs. I asked if that was a good thing and he said yes, of course, a man always wants to protect his partner, and that what is making it so hard for him to walk away.
-- I recommend not talking about her at all. BluWave said to me and I repeat it in my head like a mantra-- she is NOTHING to me. I am the wife, I am the mother of these amazing children, and this is MY family. I am the queen of my castle. Always. (If you want I will find in my thread and repost. I have it saved on my phone to walk through when I need it.)
Yes please repost as she is taking up far too much of my time!
Today, before he went to therapy, I discovered that in Dec he took an entire day off work to spend with her while he was working away in the city. He sacrificed a whole day’s pay to be with her - i’m SO angry (not just this but he swore he hadn’t seen her since August...no wait, it was November...nope, it was December) . I confronted him and told him to FO out of my life. I know it was non-DB behaviour but I am absolutely sick of being drip-fed lies. Of course he’s played down the extent of their meet and I’ll probably never know the truth. As for us, I’d asked him if he would come home a day early that week as it was the week before Christmas and there were things on with the kids. But he said he couldn’t come home early because of a team meeting. What a load of BS. It was that night that I woke up at 3 am and trawled through his iPad....talk about female intuition.
He is scared of all that a S/D would entail-- hurting the kids as his primary fear. His recent convo with my MIL has I think also made real a lot more potential fears he was dismissing-- financial, shame and disappointment among friends and family, a lot more around hurting me and the kids, etc. He has been saying since he gave me the final BD a couple of weeks ago (confessing to the 2 year PA instead of a much shorter EA) us to come to a decision "together" and I think in his mind all along once we got to this position I would be the one to tell him to go (but also somehow in the end would be happy for him and we'd still be best friends? Just another example of the fantastical storm of what is happening inside his head). Last night he said his two biggest fears are that I won't really be able to forgive him and that he won't ever really get over AP.
Sounds identical to my H a couple of weeks ago. Hadn’t considered financial impact or impact on kids until I presented the research and sums.Assumed they’d be ok as kids are resilient and adapt well!
His therapist told him today that he hadn’t been very good at covering up his lies, and that he had probably subconsciously intended for me to find out and kick him out- so that he wouldn’t be the one forced to make a decision to go. I read this a lot, that men want someone to make the decision for them. After I found out about the day off, he asked me what now, I said what do you mean, and he responded “well you can kick me out now”. So yes, looking for me to make the call.
I 100% understand that it would be so, so much easier if he was gone to stop struggling with the paranoia and deal with this whiplash of a H. (Yours totally sounds like that-- one day checking out your underwear and the next day he married a mother figure? Give me a break.) I have been spending this time trying to get more and more OK with the idea that it is really over, he will move out, how can I protect myself and my children through that process? I do feel like I'm starting to detach more and more. Can you work on that? The good thing about being detached is that then it doesn't matter if he is in your house or not-- his behavior, mood swings, new announcements, text threads, etc don't affect YOU. You do you and let his craziness stay outside of your bubble.
Hang in there. I know exactly how awful this all is. I'm there too if it helps. Hugs.
We had a long talk this evening, he is still confused, but he said when he’s not with me, it becomes clear he needs to leave, then when he sees me, he gets confused again. This is what tends to happen when he goes away - he’ll leave me saying he’s not sure what he wants, then when he gets back he wants to leave. repeat every week. So tomorrow he’ll go away and I don’t know whether he’s staying or leaving, but by Thursday I’m sure he’ll be planning his exit again. I wish something would break the cycle, but that’s out of my control. I just need to focus on me and kids.
This is something BluWave posted on my thread and I refer to it often. It has been incredibly helpful for me.
You are the queen of your castle. Always.
You are the wife, you are the mother of these children, and this is YOUR family.
This is your home and you have a right to feel comfortable and safe there.
These M problems are not your fault alone.
The SSM was not your fault alone.
His A is not your fault and will never be your fault. This is HIS doing and his problem alone.
Right now, he is in the wrong and there is no justifying this selfish behavior. No more taking the blame.
OW is nothing and means nothing to you.
It is okay to feel angry, jealous, hurt, furious and anything you need to feel! Feel it and own those feelings -- they are your feelings!
There are safe people you can share your feelings with that won't judge you. Find them and cherish them.
You never have to compete with OW
There is no competition.
She is nothing to you.
It is not your job to convince him to stay.
You do not have to compromise your own needs or wants for him or any man.
You can take all the time and space you need.
You don't have to make any decisions or changes today.
There is always more time.
You do not have to share a bed with a liar and a cheater.
If he wants to leave for her, that is his choice and you can let him go.
He can own that decision and he can own the consequences of it.
He can break up his family if he chooses and you can still protect your castle and children. They will be okay.
You can still hold your head up high and you are still the queen.
I promise you will be okay with or without him there.
In time, this will work out for the best, eventually.
If over time you allow him back, or don't want him back, that is your own choice and no one elses opinion matters that much.
Life is long and complicated. Things will change for the bad, but also for the good.
In time, you can learn to love again and you will come out of this stronger.
You deserve love and respect.
Start by being the one to give that to yourself.
You can do this.
Thank you May for sharing. I will read and re-read that every time I feel a wobble. (Probably several times over next fe days.)The SSM resonates with me, and I do agree that there is no one person to blame.
H has departed for the city. We hugged and held each other close a lot yesterday, all initiated by him, including at bed time. I think this was largely down to guilt in relation to his decision to leave. He also initiated R talks earlier, as always being tormented over the contented life and friendship he has with me versus that desire for a deeper connection. He is struggling to understand -and asked me - why I don’t feel the need to go and find it, knowing that he can’t give me what I need. I didn’t have time to respond before he had to leave. But it is something for me to think about, because I am starting to question what I want, and whether my vision of us being happily married is as much of a fantasy as his idealised view of divorce.
Most IC's are just there to listen and validate. Your H came out of the first session wanting to work on the M, and the 2nd wanting a divorce. That's not a reflection on the IC, it's his scrambled mind. He's confused and in turmoil. The IC probably just validates whether crazy stuff is coming out of his mouth. LBS's often think that if the WAS gets in IC then they will "talk some sense" into them and save the M. It never, ever happens. They listen. They validate. They tell the client/ patient what they want to hear. They collect their money. That's it.
After the first session H concluded that the IC had misunderstood what he had told her, as he didn’t now believe that the EAP was an influencing factor in his feelings (or lack of) for me. The NC with the EAP was broken in a matter of days. He was hesitant about going back to the IC and I realised that he felt she had pushed an agenda that he didn’t want. At the second session, based on the new information that she was armed with, she suggested S. So yes, to your point, perhaps he is driving the agenda and solution, not the IC. Although to be fair, I am glad that they are exploring all possibilities and he is starting to open up to someone who may help him unravel his mind.
H has departed for the city. We hugged and held each other close a lot yesterday, all initiated by him, including at bed time. I think this was largely down to guilt in relation to his decision to leave. He also initiated R talks earlier, as always being tormented over the contented life and friendship he has with me versus that desire for a deeper connection. He is struggling to understand -and asked me - why I don’t feel the need to go and find it, knowing that he can’t give me what I need. I didn’t have time to respond before he had to leave.
Hi Pommy,
I feel like our sitches are a little different from some of the others out here, because our Hs haven't completely been taken over by aliens and remain in many ways the H we knew before-- the "best friend," funny, kind, affectionate-- yet are still totally living a lie. (Kristin is in a sort of similar situation, though her W says she wants to get back together but her actions don't follow. Our Hs say they want out but can't pull the trigger.)
Someone on here said to me that friends don't lie and break significant promises to their friends. I keep thinking H is my best friend, but if a friend did to me what H did-- lying about something significant for two years, breaking a promise at the heart of our friendship? We'd be done for sure. Our Hs aren't acting like friends. (Of course, you don't have kids with friends, which is the big complicating factor for me.)
The other thing that I think might be a little different for you and me (KG probably is in this boat too) is that we have a *lot* of information on the confusion going on inside their heads, simply because they are telling us and talking to us. Many of these WSs are just acting like a**holes and aren't engaging in R talks, aren't expressing all this confusion, etc.-- you can just see it in their behavior.
But here is what I'm starting to think... so what? It doesn't matter that we have a backstage pass instead of a front row seat to the sadness, confusion, guilt, fear, etc. going on in our H's heads. It just doesn't matter. It might help us with being more empathetic to what is going on, but it doesn't change their behavior or mean squat about where they might end up. I also wonder if having that information, along with the friendship/niceness part of our Hs still being present, is making it more difficult to step back and see what is going on with clear eyes.
What triggered me to write and think this was you saying he was initiating hugs due to guilt in/re his decision to leave... maybe one step to take (this is for me too) is to stop trying to label his behavior and stop caring about what might be driving it. Like as soon as you feel yourself thinking about it and doing it-- just stop and think about something else. I can't get drawn into the craziness inside his head. I can only control ME.
And also... I'm torn on how important it is for us to share where we are with our Hs. On the one hand, he's told me (sometimes significantly after the fact) that the things I've said to him have had a lot of impact. On the other hand, any things I say probably just add to the confusion and make him feel controlled by me, unless all I do is repeat over and over-- GO and it will all be OK. (I won't say the all OK part. But I am saying the GO, if that is what you want part.)
But it is something for me to think about, because I am starting to question what I want, and whether my vision of us being happily married is as much of a fantasy as his idealised view of divorce.
My H definitely thinks my vision of a happy M2.0 is an equivalent fantasy to him living next door with AP but coming over every night for dinner and still traveling together as a family (without AP). Bahahahaha.
Probably we all have some element of fantasy in our idealized scenarios, and being happily married takes work-- work we (including our Hs) all didn't do well enough the first time around or we wouldn't be where we are today. I'm working on letting go of that fantasy and sticking with today. Maybe we get there, or not. It is so frustrating and sad and lonely, I know.
The other thing that I think might be a little different for you and me (KG probably is in this boat too) is that we have a *lot* of information on the confusion going on inside their heads, simply because they are telling us and talking to us. Many of these WSs are just acting like a**holes and aren't engaging in R talks, aren't expressing all this confusion, etc.-- you can just see it in their behavior.
But here is what I'm starting to think... so what? It doesn't matter that we have a backstage pass instead of a front row seat to the sadness, confusion, guilt, fear, etc. going on in our H's heads. It just doesn't matter. It might help us with being more empathetic to what is going on, but it doesn't change their behavior or mean squat about where they might end up. I also wonder if having that information, along with the friendship/niceness part of our Hs still being present, is making it more difficult to step back and see what is going on with clear eyes.
I have found myself making excuses for his behaviour...he's confused...he doesn't know what he wants...and I have been brushing aside the lies and deceit. I feel like I have been TOO forgiving, because I apply some rationale to his behaviour. When I take a step back, I see there is no excuse for the behaviour. I know that I have not deserved the lies, the cover ups, the pretences, the gaslighting. I go back to the analogy of what if this were our daughter? What would H and I both say if we saw someone treating our daughter in the way he has treated me? We would tell her that it's not acceptable, that there is no excuse, and that she deserves better. H would be infuriated to think that someone had the audacity to treat his daughter with such disrespect
What triggered me to write and think this was you saying he was initiating hugs due to guilt in/re his decision to leave... maybe one step to take (this is for me too) is to stop trying to label his behavior and stop caring about what might be driving it. Like as soon as you feel yourself thinking about it and doing it-- just stop and think about something else. I can't get drawn into the craziness inside his head. I can only control ME.
Yes, I now realise more than ever that hugs and kisses are meaningless (or at least, there's no point trying to second guess their significance). I've had a year of hugs and kisses and look where we are!
And also... I'm torn on how important it is for us to share where we are with our Hs. On the one hand, he's told me (sometimes significantly after the fact) that the things I've said to him have had a lot of impact. On the other hand, any things I say probably just add to the confusion and make him feel controlled by me, unless all I do is repeat over and over-- GO and it will all be OK. (I won't say the all OK part. But I am saying the GO, if that is what you want part.)
I feel that what I say, and how he interprets it, completely depends on where his head is at, at any given time. E.g I have told him that our daughter says she misses him while he is in the city. This could be interpreted by him as emotional blackmail, or it could trigger some deeper thoughts that have him really consider the impact of his leaving. I've been very mindful of what I share with him and when - timing, etc.
My H definitely thinks my vision of a happy M2.0 is an equivalent fantasy to him living next door with AP but coming over every night for dinner and still traveling together as a family (without AP). Bahahahaha.
oh I'm sure in time you'll be besties with AP and you can ALL holiday together
H came back from the city last night and initiated a conversation, saying he’s had complete clarity and knows he wants to leave, and that the only reason he is still here, or keeps changing his mind, is guilt. He has been looking for somewhere to rent.
In spite of how I’ve been feeling towards him, and that maybe I had had enough, this wasn’t the outcome I wanted. He maintains that this is nothing to do with anyone else. Of course I cant be sure of that, but on some levels I believe him.
He says he has tried to get feelings back but they aren’t there, so he buries his head and tells himself that he loves me and everything will be ok and fall into place. But then the feelings of what is lacking in the relationship keep coming, back and that’s when he feels he has to leave. He still maintains I’m his best friend and he loves me deeply so I am finding it hard to let go.
I feel like I have run out of options. We have been in this sitch fo nearly a year, ironically had an incredibly happy year together after a few years of bad marriage, but it’s a friendship not a romantic relationship.
It feels so awful,right now, I feel hopeless and helpless.
Ugh. A lot of us can relate. I have endured 2 years of separation. Here's what I can tell you. The only cure, only hope for this situation is to really let them go, go experience the breakup and see how they like it when it becomes real. That means, limited to no contact (kid and business only) initiated by you. Zero pursuit or pressure. You do the best you can to put your life back together so you're operating from strength. I doubt your story is over yet, even if he gets into a rebound with someone. But you can't put your life on hold for that. I'm not saying it's easy, it is not. But it is the only way short of hurling yourself off a building.
Ugh. A lot of us can relate. I have endured 2 years of separation. Here's what I can tell you. The only cure, only hope for this situation is to really let them go, go experience the breakup and see how they like it when it becomes real. That means, limited to no contact (kid and business only) initiated by you. Zero pursuit or pressure. You do the best you can to put your life back together so you're operating from strength. I doubt your story is over yet, even if he gets into a rebound with someone. But you can't put your life on hold for that. I'm not saying it's easy, it is not. But it is the only way short of hurling yourself off a building.
Wow, 2 years of separation, that’s a long time. Are you still hoping to reconcile? I haven’t read your story.
I know I need to let him go, as the sitch will never change otherwise. I know today will hurt, tomorrow will hurt, next week will hurt, but in 12months, I will be in a better place. If things stay the same, then every day will be like yesterday, or last week.
Mine has been in contact with me the entire time, has had no OW, and supposedly the reason for the separation was from him to have space from my controlling behavior which has since been eradicated. He has offered reconciliation twice during this period but didn't follow through. Then he filed for D which is not final yet. He still isn't completely gone IMO but I'm stuck in limbo land until he either does it or I give up in m own mind.
hi Pommy,
I'm so sorry. I know that s*cks.
I don't know if this helps or hurts, but my H maintained through all of this-- until he finally revealed the true extent and depth of his A three weeks ago-- that the AP had nothing to do with any of this, that our troubles were between the two of us and totally separate from her. (Just like yours! So funny/sad we have WH twins.) I might just discount him saying that. He might even believe it himself right now because he HAS to in order to do what he's doing, but it is BS and you shouldn't buy it.
Also, just like my sorry H, claiming to be "trying" to get the feelings back whilst still in an EA/PA/infatuation/whatever with an OW-- is simply not trying! It is impossible. Imagine if you had some hot fun side guy in the city who was stroking your ego, telling you how beautiful you are, your husband doesn't understand or appreciate you, even if you aren't in a PA you are sharing romantic dinners and long talks and whatever... he listens to you, he wants your advice, he is always happy to see you. And then you go home to your H. Your "friend" is texting you, calling you, making you feel beautiful and wanted and special. Your H is someone you know backwards and forwards and no matter what, there just isn't going to be that level of excitement and energy and what-ifs with him. Your H has all the baggage of real life, kids, mortgage, housework, bills.
Think about that. How could you POSSIBLY imagine that the excitement and fun you see with your "friend" can come back into your R with your H? It is like a drug. I mean... I get it! It probably *does* feel like a missing puzzle piece. It just isn't real.
The good side of him walking (if he actually does... saying he wants to and actually doing it are two different things) is now you're out of limbo. Now you can DB like a champ. It is HARD to do it when he's in your house. Now he gets to realize that his fantasy of still being best friends with you is not going to happen, and losing you as his best friend is going to hurt.
Hang in there.
I don't know if this helps or hurts, but my H maintained through all of this-- until he finally revealed the true extent and depth of his A three weeks ago-- that the AP had nothing to do with any of this, that our troubles were between the two of us and totally separate from her. (Just like yours! So funny/sad we have WH twins.) I might just discount him saying that. He might even believe it himself right now because he HAS to in order to do what he's doing, but it is BS and you shouldn't buy it.
Honestly, what is with this idea that the A or AP has nothing to do with any marriage problems? I was floored when I heard this same thing. I felt like I lived on planet crazy and he was the mayor. Of course it would be very convenient for this to be true. Then it can be more our fault and they have to feel "less bad" about it all. Or end things. It sounds like your husband is still in the fantasy nuts stage, and until the A is over and withdrawals are done, that won't change.
Hi, Pommy. I'm so sorry you're dealing with this now. Feeling hopeless and helpless is really hard. may's words helped me put things in perspective again, and I hope they help you too. Let me quote this part again real quick:
Imagine if you had some hot fun side guy in the city who was stroking your ego, telling you how beautiful you are, your husband doesn't understand or appreciate you, even if you aren't in a PA you are sharing romantic dinners and long talks and whatever... he listens to you, he wants your advice, he is always happy to see you. And then you go home to your H. Your "friend" is texting you, calling you, making you feel beautiful and wanted and special. Your H is someone you know backwards and forwards and no matter what, there just isn't going to be that level of excitement and energy and what-ifs with him. Your H has all the baggage of real life, kids, mortgage, housework, bills.
Think about that. How could you POSSIBLY imagine that the excitement and fun you see with your "friend" can come back into your R with your H? It is like a drug. I mean... I get it! It probably *does* feel like a missing puzzle piece. It just isn't real.
Even if no AP, it seems there's always a friend fulfilling this role. And if not, there's still some elusive thing/person/feeling that the spouse thinking is that missing puzzle piece. In any case, it's fantasy, not real life. I like what Newbie says too—this doesn't necessarily mean your story with H is over. Sending hugs!
Mine has been in contact with me the entire time, has had no OW, and supposedly the reason for the separation was from him to have space from my controlling behavior which has since been eradicated. He has offered reconciliation twice during this period but didn't follow through. Then he filed for D which is not final yet. He still isn't completely gone IMO but I'm stuck in limbo land until he either does it or I give up in m own mind.
I feel for you, limbo is such a hard place to be, for so long. I’m still faltering over whether I want him or don’t want him. It’s so hard knowing when to give up. I don’t think I’m there yet, but I also think I’m not that far off.
hi Pommy,
I'm so sorry. I know that s*cks.
I don't know if this helps or hurts, but my H maintained through all of this-- until he finally revealed the true extent and depth of his A three weeks ago-- that the AP had nothing to do with any of this, that our troubles were between the two of us and totally separate from her. (Just like yours! So funny/sad we have WH twins.) I might just discount him saying that. He might even believe it himself right now because he HAS to in order to do what he's doing, but it is BS and you shouldn't buy it.
Also, just like my sorry H, claiming to be "trying" to get the feelings back whilst still in an EA/PA/infatuation/whatever with an OW-- is simply not trying! It is impossible. Imagine if you had some hot fun side guy in the city who was stroking your ego, telling you how beautiful you are, your husband doesn't understand or appreciate you, even if you aren't in a PA you are sharing romantic dinners and long talks and whatever... he listens to you, he wants your advice, he is always happy to see you. And then you go home to your H. Your "friend" is texting you, calling you, making you feel beautiful and wanted and special. Your H is someone you know backwards and forwards and no matter what, there just isn't going to be that level of excitement and energy and what-ifs with him. Your H has all the baggage of real life, kids, mortgage, housework, bills.
Think about that. How could you POSSIBLY imagine that the excitement and fun you see with your "friend" can come back into your R with your H? It is like a drug. I mean... I get it! It probably *does* feel like a missing puzzle piece. It just isn't real.
I totally agree with what you have written above and in your own thread - it’s about how she makes him feel, and it is like an addiction. Both my and his IC have said the same. His IC said that he might not actually want a proper R with her, and that it’s more to do with the addiction of feeling wanted. My IC has talked to me about secondary gains...why does he keep the status quo? He has TWO women desiring him, wanting his attention, his time. Why would he change that?. He has these two lives, and a woman in each. If he makes a decision to end one of these Rs then he has to go cold turkey, and no addict wants to be in that place. As mentioned before, H managed 4 days of cold turkey from EAP following declaration of NC.
The good side of him walking (if he actually does... saying he wants to and actually doing it are two different things) is now you're out of limbo. Now you can DB like a champ. It is HARD to do it when he's in your house. Now he gets to realize that his fantasy of still being best friends with you is not going to happen, and losing you as his best friend is going to hurt.
Hang in there.
he phoned up about a rental yesterday. I cried. Ugly cry. I tried to do it out of earshot, in my bathroom, but he heard me. Maybe I wanted him to hear me, IDK.But after I realised I do want him to go, I don’t want to be in a R like this. He comes home every week, under the excitement of the city, he concludes he wants to leave. After a few hours at home, he remembers he has children who want and need him in their lives, he realises that he stands to lose a lot financially, his lifestyle will change dramatically, and he starts to waiver on his decision to leave, and he tries to reel me in again. It’s the same cycle every week. And I do not want that any more. Because his decision to stay is not about me.
I have had 4 sessions with an IC and she now firmly has him as narcissistic personality disorder. This is something that my family has picked up on over a number of years, but the term ‘narcissist ‘ is bandied about a lot in the media, and I’ve taken it all with a pinch of salt. However, she recommended a book to me, which arrived yesterday: Should I Stay or Should I Go - surviving a relationship with a narcissist . Everything I’ve read so far rings so true about how he has treated me throughout our marriage. It’s jaw-droppingly accurate. And it makes me realise that this isn’t all my fault, and that he will take all these traits into his next relationship. I can fix me, but I can’t fix him. And whilst he’s the way he is, I don’t know if I want to be in a relationship with him. This isn’t about the way he’s treated me in the last year, it’s all the years prior to that. I feel that this separation might be as much my way of escaping as it is his.
It’s just scary that I might have to admit all that to myself.
So u-turn of sorts from both of us in last 24 hrs. I’d like some advice please!
1. I’m not ready for this marriage to end
2. H suggested that moving out is a bad idea right now as D15 has final year exams in May, and separation could impact her studies.
He suggested separating but co-habiting. We would both live as single people. I should instinctively want to put my daughter first. But I am struggling to see how I will cope. I feel,our relationship would deteriorate even further, as would my mental state, under the stress of him working away 3 days in the week, and then coming home - close but unavailable; knowing he has freedom to see/do what he wants, stay out all night etc and I’d suck it up. I’d rathe he see/do what he wants and I’d remain oblivious. I feel deterioration of our relationship in front of the children could be as damaging as him leaving.
I am completely at a loss here.
As an addendum to the above, I guess I’m trying to understand, is this really about D15 and exams? Her having exams is not new information!
For someone who seems adamant there is no future in the M, why would they not want to leave?
He has told me on so many occasions that he wants to leave, but each time stalls on actually taking real action.
I’d like opinions on whether, in terms of hoping to save the marriage, S is better than him staying and not having the space to figure out what he wants.
No it is not about D15. He wants more time to see how green the grass is without having to give up his “family” life . If you agree to this he just got another 6 months of doing exactly what he’s been doing with you saying ok to it . I like how they throw in we both will be living single - trying to get you to participate.
I don't know, Pommy... I agree with CG. Sounds like you'd be signing up for six more months of the same with your OK. *Are* you OK with this? Because if you are, and can truly detach and not GAF then I think what MWD would say is that in-house separation gives you more chances to interact and show your 180s, GAL, etc. My DB coach told me that she always prefers IHS to moving out, if you can handle it.
But if you aren't OK with it, then don't do it. You need to decide what you want and what you are OK with and not OK with and then work from there. You already have decided you aren't ready for this M to end.... now you need to decide what else are your pillars that reflect your values and supports your own mental and physical health.
Have you read MWD's Healing From Infidelity? There is a chapter on when your spouse won't end the affair and I'm going to quote a little from it (hope that is OK):
"I know it is a lot to ask of you to avoid putting pressure on your spouse to end the affair if your spouse has chosen unfaithfulness. You may feel like you're a doormat or that your spouse is "having his cake and eating it too." After all, your spouse has all the comforts of home -- you, the kids, (if you have them), your home and a secure lifestyle-- and an affair. How unfair this feels, and is. I get it.
"But you are not a doormat. You are not a pushover. You are simply fighting for your marriage and you're trying to do it in the smartest way possible. You are giving your spouse the time and space they need to sort their emotions out and do the right thing. You are very courageous. You're a warrior. Don't let anyone tell you differently."
She then goes on to talk about boundary drawing and when you're ready to do it, to do it... but you have to be prepared to follow through. So if you do decide to go with an IHS, maybe the above will help. If you decide to say no and he decides to move out, there are plenty of stories on here (CG is one) where letting them go and DBing like a champ seems like the best and fastest road to R, or to a better life anyway without your WS.
And: do NOT let him guilt you into letting him stay but date other people because it would be best for D15. That is BS. Does he think him dating other people while living at home is going to be peachy for D15? If he really prioritized the kids above his own selfishness, this wouldn't be happening. (this is me talking to myself too lol.)
Also, if he's in the same place as my H, he hasn't taken actual steps to leave because he's scared. He may be just as scared as you are of ending the M and actually separating-- he also just has this other big driver that is pushing him to leave that you don't have (the OW), whether she's actually encouraging him to do so or he just wants the freedom to pursue the highs of the A.
Finally... do you think he really does have NPD? Because if that is the case, I just want to gently push you on why you want to stay married to him... I have known a couple of people with NPD, one married to my very good friend (now Ded) and I worked for one... I'm wondering if in the long term it makes sense to stay married to someone who has such difficulties with empathy. I just want you to re-read this post of yours from a couple of days ago:
[Everything I’ve read so far rings so true about how he has treated me throughout our marriage. It’s jaw-droppingly accurate. And it makes me realise that this isn’t all my fault, and that he will take all these traits into his next relationship. I can fix me, but I can’t fix him. And whilst he’s the way he is, I don’t know if I want to be in a relationship with him. This isn’t about the way he’s treated me in the last year, it’s all the years prior to that. I feel that this separation might be as much my way of escaping as it is his.
I would spend some time on this.
I know this is awful. I will probably be in a very similar situation myself shortly as H is most likely to want to move to the basement rather than get his own place and I'm trying to think through how to keep that separate enough so that we can actually be separated, not just him sleeping in the basement but still spending time up here.
Hang in there.
No it is not about D15. He wants more time to see how green the grass is without having to give up his “family” life . If you agree to this he just got another 6 months of doing exactly what he’s been doing with you saying ok to it . I like how they throw in we both will be living single - trying to get you to participate.
Thanks for your thoughts Caligirl. This is really hard. I feel I know what his game is. However, I also feel that 5 months of my life at 49 is pretty insignificant - 5 months of h3ll wont really impact my future, my educational or career opportunities. I can keep the status quo at work, I can tick over and do my job. But for her, these 5 months are critical and could have so much impact on her future.
I am recognising that part of the reason I want him to leave now is so that he can experience what will initially be an ugly reality of what he is creating, that he won’t have the luxury of waiting patiently for a better rental property to come up; that when he says he wants to leave us, he doesn’t then get to choose if that’s in 6 days or 6 months. I know all of this is an emotional reaction, and it’s a bitter one. I probably need to step back.
Some days I feel more detached and numb than others. Some days I think I could handle this for a few more months and some days I can’t. It’s really hard.
Also, if he's in the same place as my H, he hasn't taken actual steps to leave because he's scared. He may be just as scared as you are of ending the M and actually separating-- he also just has this other big driver that is pushing him to leave that you don't have (the OW), whether she's actually encouraging him to do so or he just wants the freedom to pursue the highs of the A.
May I’m so sorry once again you are in this. Yes, I think there is fear, I am all he’s known for 19years. And there is guilt about the devastation he will cause. I’m not even sure if the EAP is an issue any more. I don’t ask and it’s really because I feel we are way beyond her being an influence. He’s leaving, and that’s that.
Finally... do you think he really does have NPD? Because if that is the case, I just want to gently push you on why you want to stay married to him... I have known a couple of people with NPD, one married to my very good friend (now Ded) and I worked for one... I'm wondering if in the long term it makes sense to stay married to someone who has such difficulties with empathy
I’m struggling with this. He ticks so many boxes of NPD. However, there can be a fine line between some of what is considered narcissistic and what is self-confidence. I also wonder if some of the traits are simply as a result of the dynamics in our marriage... it’s difficult to differentiate between cause and effect: does he act in such a way because of how I have treated him, or vice-versa. Empathy is one thing he lacks....but is it because our emotional connection has been eroded so badly that we sought to,protect ourselves from each other and blocked each other out? Whatever it is/ was, historically we have been in a bad place. His current behaviours are toxic ....but really no different to many other WAS on here.
He is away now, but I have had affectionate texts today expressing his sadness, fear, pain. I try not to read anything into them...has he changed his mind etc. I know that after a year, that is not going to happen. But again, he is talking about needing time to think, and worrying about the children. For once I feel quite detached and have not let the emotional pull from him bring me down. I have validated like mad. He’s asking me over and over if I’m ok! I’m not sure if he wants me to admit I feel terrible or if he’s worried that I might actually be ok and ready to move on. (He did catch me on my laptop yesterday on a divorce calculator website, and I think he overheard me on the phone arranging a house valuation. I also saw a solicitor yesterday, which I haven’t told him about, but he may have guessed)
Think about that. How could you POSSIBLY imagine that the excitement and fun you see with your "friend" can come back into your R with your H? It is like a drug. I mean... I get it! It probably *does* feel like a missing puzzle piece. It just isn't real.
Very well said on all of that post, and this part in particular is spot-on. He's in a fog. He will hopefully emerge from it some day, but it could be a year, or even several years before it happens. Google "limerence", he is heavily in it right now and it will take quite some time for that to wear off and reality to set in. When it does he will still have a ways to go before hitting bottom, and THEN he may start to do the hard work on himself. Only after that will genuine recon possibly be an option.
Quick question please if someone can advise. I have not been initiating R talks. I’m finding now that H is approaching me far more, wanting to talk about it. I am trying to listen and validate like mad. He tells me he is feeling low, mixed up, full of doubt [about leaving], or alternatively that he knows leaving is the right thing to do, and why. He is being more open and honest with me than he has been for years. But when he asks me “how are you feeling”, what approach should I take? Do i be honest and tell him I feel like sh1t most of the time, or do I say I’m ok and feeling good? I just don’t know what the best response is. When he is working away he always txts me and asks how I am, and it’s easy to be upbeat and pretend I’m doing good . But when we have the “proper” talks, should I be honest and share my true feelings?
I think the DB approach would be to deflect, deflect, deflect... so he says how are you feeling and you say that's a good question, I need to think about it or whatever, oh is that the timer going off?
Me? I am TERRIBLE at that and honestly haven't been doing it. I've been honest with my H all along when he asks. I do try to focus more on where *I* am than how his behavior is affecting me, but when he asks I do tell him. Maybe saying things like I feel confused, this is all really difficult for me, I'm just trying to focus on myself and what I need is both honest and OK from a DB perspective? I would be really careful to be sure you aren't saying anything that sounds pursuit-like, like you're acting from a place of fear, that you're blaming him or overly focusing on his actions rather than what is best for Pommy.
Giant grain of salt and all that. Probably better to let the vets weigh in. But that is where I am (and I know we have a lot of similarities in our sitches). Hugs.
I think the DB approach would be to deflect, deflect, deflect... so he says how are you feeling and you say that's a good question, I need to think about it or whatever, oh is that the timer going off?
Me? I am TERRIBLE at that and honestly haven't been doing it. I've been honest with my H all along when he asks. I do try to focus more on where *I* am than how his behavior is affecting me, but when he asks I do tell him. Maybe saying things like I feel confused, this is all really difficult for me, I'm just trying to focus on myself and what I need is both honest and OK from a DB perspective? I would be really careful to be sure you aren't saying anything that sounds pursuit-like, like you're acting from a place of fear, that you're blaming him or overly focusing on his actions rather than what is best for Pommy.
Giant grain of salt and all that. Probably better to let the vets weigh in. But that is where I am (and I know we have a lot of similarities in our sitches). Hugs.
Thank you May! He initiated further talks last night when he got back, same old.....confused, doesn’t know if the upheaval and upset is worth it, fear about leaving me and going into the unknown. Nothing in there about me or the M.
As expected, he asked how I’m feeling....I was frantically trying to recall your post (which I had read twice)...my mind was blank...what do I say....what do I say !! I think it managed to get out that the uncertainty is difficult, but that I’m trying to focus on me, and look after myself -get proper sleep, exercise, channel my energies into positive actions, spend a lot of time with the kids, focus on being more productive and organised at work, etc. (I didn’t once mention that I’d actually spent a lot of time staring at the ceiling, drunk wine rather than go to the gym, and eaten crisps for dinner as the thought of cooking was too exhausting, all whilst feeling like I wanted to crawl into a rabbit hole and never come out!! )
hahaha, I have totally been there, wine over gym, crackers for dinner. (I ate popcorn for dinner last night.) Honestly I like being a little bit irresponsible like that.
Great job hanging in there. He is so confused. Sounds exactly where my H is. I will also say that any time H has caught me with my divorce book or looking at financial docs or whatever he freaks out too, so I would not be surprised if that is what is motivating this particular burst of ambivalence and pull back into the MR. I don't know what that means (except the classic pursuer/distancer dynamic, or he's scared you'll pull the plug and since he doesn't know he DOESN'T want that, he is trying to reconnect to slow you down) but I have definitely experienced the same thing.
A couple of thoughts-- one, I just posted this on someone else's thread, but I thought more about why I have been open about where I am with H in terms of my feelings and it is because I want to be true to myself. I'm kind of tired of editing everything I say because it may or may not push him in one or the other direction, or pretending to be happy when I'm not, or distant when I don't feel distant. Probably terrible advice but that is how I'm feeling right now and don't much care how H takes it.
Also, are there other things you could talk or connect about that don't involve your R? It might be helpful for both of you to connect and talk (practicing your validation) about things that aren't quite so painful and existential. Your kids? Work? Brexit?
(or not) ... but that way you could still fulfill his obvious need to connect with you without heaping on the pain of what is going on right now.
May, I don’t know whether he is confused or whether it is fear of the unknown, which he does talk about. I think he knows what he wants but is fearful of acting it out. He says it would be easier if I felt the same way as him, then he wouldn’t have any pull back towards me. I asked if it would be easier if I walked away and he doesn’t believe that it is fair on me to have to make that call when he knows it’s not what I want. He talks about how he loves my company, the places we go, but then always brings it back round to that missing piece ( and I’m thinking jeez, do I need to be told every flipping day that you don’t find me sexually attractive and want to get that with someone else!). I know he is frustrated and emotionally exhausted at going round in circles with the same feelings and not being able to make a decision. My take is that he hasn’t wanted me for the last year, so why is there still doubt in his mind?
But we did discuss Where I’m at, and I mentioned that the IC has been challenging me to think long and hard about how he makes me feel. Does he make me feel good about myself; does he make me feel loved, desired, does he meet my needs emotionally, physically? The answer is ‘no’ every time, and I told him this. (But nothing he didn’t know already.) I guess I am in love with the man that was and not the man that is.
Like you, I tend to be genuine with my feelings. That doesn’t mean that I don’t pretend to be great when in fact I’m not, but I do tell him that I don’t want to break up, that I don’t feel ready to let the sun set on our marriage, because I feel there is a lot going for us. I just try not to plead/convince although I have been guilty of that many times but have completely stopped that recently and just tried to validate.
This week we had very little contact while he was in the city. Usually we text at least every couple of hours but it was different this week. And it hurt, but I stood my ground and never sent the first text. (By day 3 we got to 5pm with no contact - he sent the txt) . The nice thing was, by Weds evening, when he called we had a really good, fun talk, just about anything (not logistics, kids, R). I told him today that I had missed him this week and he said pensively ‘yeah, I missed you too’. For the last year he has never sent me a message or told me he has missed me - and he is away every single week for 3 days. But, as soon as he said he had missed me he put it down to familiarity. I’m not even thinking about what it may or may not signify, but it has felt different somehow this week.
He’s now gone to view a rental. He wasn’t sure about going as his head is all over the place, but he decided to go to see what emotions it invoked in him. I will let him tell me when he’s ready.
Hello
I too have struggled with the sense that if I am not being open about my thoughts and feelings with my H, I am being dishonest. For a while, I was in such distress that I didn't really have a clear picture on what I wanted, why, what I was willing to change and what I was no longer willing to tolerate. That is all much clearer to me now, but I don't communicate it to H on a daily basis for a few reasons.
1. actions speak louder than words. In my experience living your boundaries - acting them out - is more effective than describing them, which can sound weak, whiny and irritating. I know when I hear myself doing it it is irritating so god knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a boundaries speech.
2. the gift of knowing my inner world - my thoughts and feelings, my hopes, my hurts and desires, my uncertainties and my goals - is something I bestow very carefully on a few close friends, to varying degrees. My H has not earned access to all parts of my inner world. I don't believe this is dishonest - I do not lie to him - but it is self protection and self respect.
3. one of my boundaries is that my relationships be reciprocal. I don't share my thoughts and feelings etc with someone who is closed or private with me (as is their right). At the moment what feels safe and healthy is to match my H's level of sharing. He will talk about his feelings now and again, but as it's generally whining and blame and I don't believe he is honest with himself or me about his vulnerabilities, I tend just to validate if I can, and make myself scarce when I can't.
Fear of the unknown/ fear of D... yes, that is a huge thing with my H too. I might guess the biggest part of not being able to pull the trigger of actually leaving. Fear it won't work out with AP, fear of all the negatives of S/D, fear of hurting the children, me, etc. For me at least, I know that the romantic part of the love for me is zero percent of the equation. Me as friend is a factor, but not me as wife/lover. The missing piece that will never, ever come back.
I mean, I guess at least they're telling us what they think instead of just clamming up and walking. Seems easier if they would just do that, though. Right??
I also got a bit sick and tired of being told H could *never* imagine being sexually attracted to me, that he knew I was attractive rationally but just didn't feel like that for me. That he would see me sometimes out in a different context and think "oooh she's attractive" and then realize it was me and be like meh. That situations in which he used to find me sexy (like at work) now he's proud of me but not attracted to me. Not good on the old ego, though to be honest it doesn't bother me all that much because I know what I look like and I know I'm fortunate to look like I do. Anyway, he doesn't say that anymore since the last BD and we did have sex several times. (Now the complaint is that it isn't romantic and eye-lock ML. Nope, it isn't. And I wouldn't expect it to be, since he is in love with someone else.)
Anyway... the one thing I'm trying not to do (except for in MC/DC when asked specifically by the counselor) is say anything that sounds like I'm trying to convince him to make a certain choice. He needs to do what he needs to do on his own and anything that comes across as me trying to control him or convince him just isn't helpful. If he asks and is genuine (and like you, that usually comes after a good deal of outpouring from him, so it does feel reciprocal) I try my best to focus on how I'm feeling and what I'm thinking/scared of-- trying to stay in the moment too per the counselor, and not talk about my anxieties about the future-- and to be honest that seems to have really helped in our convos.
For my H, these R talks seem to be really important, to him talking about this stuff equals intimacy and closeness and so avoiding it like I did all fall felt to him like I was trying to suppress/ignore that this was happening and stick my head in the sand like an ostrich, hoping it would all go away. And again, whether it is helpful in the long run towards R or not, I feel like I'm being more honest and authentic to MYSELF, which I think is the most important part of all of this-- I just want to be able to look back and feel like I did all I could for my kids and was authentic and honest through all of it. Even if he's a big fat liar.
Not sure if this was helpful, but thinking of you.
Hello
I too have struggled with the sense that if I am not being open about my thoughts and feelings with my H, I am being dishonest. For a while, I was in such distress that I didn't really have a clear picture on what I wanted, why, what I was willing to change and what I was no longer willing to tolerate. That is all much clearer to me now, but I don't communicate it to H on a daily basis for a few reasons.
1. actions speak louder than words. In my experience living your boundaries - acting them out - is more effective than describing them, which can sound weak, whiny and irritating. I know when I hear myself doing it it is irritating so god knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of a boundaries speech. .
Hi Alison, I am struggling a little with boundaries, in that I seem to be stuck in a thought pattern of wanting to change what I can’t control, and since I can’t do that, I then accept everything as it is. I really need to get to grips with this, and I know my IC will help me with this.
Boundaries are super hard. I get them wrong a lot. I guess the trick is to realise they are about you, and not about other people. My H can do or feel or think exactly as he pleases. I can respond to that exactly how I please. If he speaks to me inappropriately, I tell him it's unacceptable then remove myself from the room without further comment. That's a boundary. What I used to do is cry and try to convince him he was being unreasonable, hurting me, damaging our relationship, wah wah wah - and that was control as it was aimed at changing his behaviour. He does speak to me a little better than he used to a lot more of the time, so in that sense perhaps it did change his behaviour - but my behaviour changed more, and changed first. My IC helped me a LOT with this.
I also got a bit sick and tired of being told H could *never* imagine being sexually attracted to me, that he knew I was attractive rationally but just didn't feel like that for me. That he would see me sometimes out in a different context and think "oooh she's attractive" and then realize it was me and be like meh. That situations in which he used to find me sexy (like at work) now he's proud of me but not attracted to me. Not good on the old ego, though to be honest it doesn't bother me all that much because I know what I look like and I know I'm fortunate to look like I do. Anyway, he doesn't say that anymore since the last BD and we did have sex several times. (Now the complaint is that it isn't romantic and eye-lock ML. Nope, it isn't. And I wouldn't expect it to be, since he is in love with someone else
H says that we have never ever had that eye-lock connection. It really makes me doubt whether there is anything worth saving, or if he is just rewriting history, and has a romanticised view of what passion in a long-term marriage with 2 children should have looked like. It does take two to tango and we both accept responsibility for our failings in meeting each other’s needs in that capacity.
The rental he saw yesterday was unsuitable, and on his return said that he wasn’t in a hurry to leave so didn’t need to take the first thing that came up....oh and also, not being sure what he even wanted to do. I must’ve just stared at him with a jaw-dropping look of exasperation as he replied “oh, you just want me to make a decision don’t you”. Of course I’m screaming inside my head for him to make a decision. It has been a year now that we have been in this limbo state, and he has not chosen me thus far. I have no idea what is going on with the EAP or if there has been any contact as I haven’t asked. I am inclined to think this may have cooled as from next month he will only be in the city once every two weeks - his choice, and also my IC suggested that the pull to her isn’t that great else he would’ve left by now. I know he’s not actively looking at rentals so he really is just wanting to live the status quo for the time being.
So limbo continues, but perhaps the new working pattern will help - 10 days at home and 4 away, rather than 4 home and 3 away. I do feel that our inability to reconnect has in part been caused by the pattern. Last summer we were having some good times together, and things seemed to be looking up....but as soon as we started to reconnect over the 4 days he was home, he’d be off again, hanging out with the OW, living the city life, and the disconnect would happen all over again, and we’d be back to square one.
This week has been another rollercoaster and today is the one year anniversary of our dinner date where we went out and discussed what to do about the state of our marriage. I had been thinking about moving out. Back then we loathed each other. That night we went out and had fun, we laughed (I cried), it was like one of our early dates, I saw the man I had married for the first time in years, I realised how much I loved him and didn’t want to break up. We went home and ended our 12 month spell with no intimacy, it carried on for 36 hrs. I naively thought we would be ok.
But not a lot changed, and 4 weeks later I discovered a very intense but short-lived EA. I was devastated, he pulled me back in, another 2 days of passion ensued. But the EA continued amidst a pack of lies. We spent the next few months trying to get back on track, trying to build connection and intimacy, but his feelings for me had gone. The EA went away but then came back again. In Dec, he decided he was leaving, the EA was in full swing as I since found out. And then he said he wasn’t sure. And then he said he was leaving again. And here we are in Feb and the leaving/not leaving is ongoing.
Last weekend he went to view a rental; 4 days later he sent me a message to say that he thought we should consider buying a second home as an investment for our future. The man that wants to leave me now wants to make a big financial commitment with me. The red flags were waving, it was surely a ploy to buy a home for him to move into? I suggested this, but no, he assured me that since viewing the rental, and being with me at the weekend, he was having nice feelings about us and got carried away with thinking about how we could,secure our future financially. He said he wasn’t ready to separate. That he has everything he wants with me but the passion is missing, but that in itself was not a valid reason to leave the marriage. He hadn’t realised the suggestion would upset me so much. I felt so broken, every time I seem to grab some control of my own, and think that I need to plan life without him, he throws in a curve ball. The rest of the week has been tense. He arrived home Thurs night, my barriers were up. I’d spent the 2 days since the suggestion of a 2nd property in a heap on the floor.
He wasn’t expecting me to be so tense and distant when he arrived home. I explained that his constant indecision was hard for me to deal with. He reacts to my tension by leaving me alone; I react to his being distant as uncaring and conclude that there is no way he thinks he has a future with me. We talked about this and he says we need to be authentic with each other, and not react to each other’s behaviours and moods. For me, being authentic is showing him affection, touching, kissing. All the anti-DB stuff. But at the same time, I am busy GAL, which I will continue to do.
Today we talked briefly about him wanting to leave. He said he doesn’t want to leave , that he’s trying to fix things, to do the right thing, and he thought I knew that. I feel pretty certain that the EA is now over, although I haven’t asked. I don’t know if this was on his terms, or if it was because he knew continued contact with the EA was a deal-breaker for me, or if he realised she wasn’t what he was looking for, or if he was worried about losing Plan B. Perhaps it’s all of those things.
I don’t know what “fixing things” means to him, I don’t know what “do the right thing” means. I don’t know why he thinks I know all this. Because DB says I should believe nothing he says.
I feel despondent because of the anniversary date. Tonight we are going out for dinner.
Your h truly does not know what he wants. He sounds depressed and is looking for something to fix that "spark" that he had w/you a while ago. I would listen and validate whenever I could.
As for purchasing an additional house at this time, I wouldn't do it. If he does eventually opt to leave, he can rent a place. You do not want to tie up your money right now because he is still sitting on the fence. Until he has become truly transparent in everything and has earned your trust again, I would sit back, listen and observe.
Try to remember...you can't fix him because you didn't break him. He has to do that and from where I'm sitting, he is still a very confused man who doesn't have a clue how to fix himself at the moment.
Try to keep the focus on you and watch your accounts!
New Thread:
1st Anniversary of Limbo, Indecisive WAH (part 2)