I've been lurking for a while. Picked up DR at the suggestion of a couples counselor we saw for discernment counseling. I've been working my way through. But a little history. H 37, I'm 36. We've been together almost 7 years, married almost 3. We each have one D from previous relationships my D 17 his D 15. Both are with us full time. All of this happened so fast and so furious I've been in a whirlwind of crisis and grief. On Oct 5 of this year we were in the Caribbean for a wedding and our lives, our sex life, and our marriage seemed great. By Nov 5th I already knew we were in trouble. He had changed his hair. Decided to run a marathon. Started hitting the gym hard. We stopped being intimate physically and emotionally. He kept meeting w/ a friend I had never met before for lunch. Stopped contacting me during the work day. And then the phone bill came. Confronted him twice about his EA with proof. After weeks of trying to make me think I was crazy, insecure, if there was anything going on it would be my fault, blah, blah, blah, the usual cheaters check list. He finally admitted it after Thanksgiving, but flat out told me he wasn't going to stop. Things had been tense, but I had been able to keep home life fairly normal. We had a calm talk about our options after this. He was leaning toward divorce. I was leaning toward trying to save our marriage and keeping our family in tact. He was vehemently opposed to the suggestion of a structured open marriage (apparently he's allowed to do things I am not). But in the end he said he wanted to at least try and would agree to IC and MC. Then I caught him trying to meet OW in a very public place during Xmas shopping time. I definitely raged a bit. Not my finest hour, I'll admit that, but screaming at him how the bleep he thinks they're going to skip off into the sunset hand in hand when she's got someone at home waiting for her too was cathartic none the less. Things got much worse after that. I completely went dark and he just mirrored the behavior. I changed our counseling appointment to a discernment appointment. We didn't speak a work to each other until that day. Then fought over the session and everything else ever for 2 1/2 hours after. Tension was definitely increasing day by day. Dec 23rd, I broke down and gave in. After a lot of thinking told him I'll give him the space and time he needs, but he's on the couch until the OW stuff is over. And I won't be waiting him out forever. That I want my marriage and my family, but I'm done talking to a brick wall, he wants me he can let me know. That I didn't want to do another discernment appointment as we were both rushing to two different finish lines and neither one of us had really sat in our grief, anger, or this mess for very long for either of us to know what we really wanted. He would have to tell me where he was even if he was with her because him disappearing for hours when our kids aren't babies is difficult to explain away, and we could at least agree on a lie for the girls for now. He agreed with all of it. And we set a date to revisit our mess on Mar 1 if he doesn't engage a R talk before then.
Through some individual counseling and a really strong support system and, soooo much reading and research have been able to work on GAL like crazy, which was super hard as I've been dealing with clinical depression and grief for about a year. But it's helped so much with the anxiety this was causing. Through trial and error I've learned 'lovingly detaching' vs full on shut down has better results. As a pursuer I thought that kind of 180 is what needed to be done but I was so wrong. Being a cordial roommate thus far has been what's been working best. He was wonderful during Christmas week. Home. Kind. Engaged. Called me pet names. But Dec 30th he went completely silent again. Was unaccounted for 5ish hours. No clue where he was or who he was with on NYE but he came home. He always comes home. NYD he wanted to go to brunch as a family. Wanted to watch a movie and have a nice dinner at home as a family. They are talking less from what I can see. He switched from text to FB messaging at some point, because he thought that meant I won't know. But he doesn't realize I can see data usage in real time. If you use 68,000kb at work you're not streaming, it's pretty obvious what you're doing. Since the day after Christmas his data usage dropped dramatically. I've been able to be more clear headed and better at being receptive vs reactive when he does want to chat like we're pals. But honestly riding this roller coaster with him is exhausting. I don't know if this is like an early MLC, or a mental break, him just being selfish, or his immature way of acting out because of needs that weren't being met that I didn't know about. He over the course of this has said, he loves me but isn't in love with me, loves both me and the OW, has no romantic feelings for either of us, and will always love me but doesn't deserve me right now. I struggle daily with convincing myself that none of this is my fault, when I know my mother's passing and depression prior and post that death was hard for him. I know we didn't have a perfect marriage prior, but I thought it was good. Right now he's with my D shopping at the outlets, and they had lunch. He stopped by my mother's grave to see if they finally put in the head stone. I didn't ask him to do that. Yesterday he took the kids for dinner while I was at IC and was incredibly concerned if I had eaten or not. Every single day he's a different person and it's exhausting to know how high I need to make my walls that day. How long I need to keep the kids out of the house because I don't know where he is. If attempting to wait him out makes me seem like a doormat. GAL and a crap ton of self care keeps me out of my head most of the time. But man, lying in bed at night after a good day I start panicking about the next bad one. After a bad one I panicking that we'll never have another good one. I've told my best friend that this is like when I'm having a bad time with one of the girls. You know the hormonally charged teenagers. I don't know what will set him off that makes him check out, much less what makes him check back in. I don't know what kind of energy I'm going to get back no matter how measured I am. I feel like I'm white knuckling every day. And it's all so new I don't know what the new normal for us is, or if any of the decisions, actions and reactions I'm making are the right ones.
Welcome to Newcomers! I am pasting in Cadet's Welcome posting for you.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Me-65, D33,S32
Every single day he's a different person and it's exhausting to know how high I need to make my walls that day. How long I need to keep the kids out of the house because I don't know where he is. If attempting to wait him out makes me seem like a doormat.
First off, I'm sorry that you are here. But you do have a great support system here so yes, do come here to vent!
I don't even know how you're doing it, because my sons are much younger and I already feel like it's sooo hard sometimes to keep up the front... yet your daughters are much older and I'm sure much more perceptive to the new dynamic in your M.
Keep your walls the same height. That's what detaching is all about, doesn't matter what kind of person he is today, you behave the same way. If he's being a good H and father today, be lovingly detached. If he's being an a**hole the next day, be lovingly detached. Aim at keeping your PMA everyday. Stay strong.
I don't even know how you're doing it, because my sons are much younger and I already feel like it's sooo hard sometimes to keep up the front... yet your daughters are much older and I'm sure much more perceptive to the new dynamic in your M.
Keep your walls the same height. That's what detaching is all about, doesn't matter what kind of person he is today, you behave the same way. If he's being a good H and father today, be lovingly detached. If he's being an a**hole the next day, be lovingly detached. Aim at keeping your PMA everyday. Stay strong.
The 17yo knows some. She has a super high EQ and was asking what was up before I was ready. She knows we are struggling and he’s more to blame which is why he’s on the couch. She’s confident we’re having a rough patch and we’ll get through it. The 15yo is, bless her heart, in her own little world most of the time (think Luna Lovegood) and hasn’t even noticed him sleeping on the couch. Explaining where he is when he’s gone for hours upon hours or rolls in at 4 am more than once a week is a little harder.
As far as the walls go. Logically I know. Protect my head and my heart first. But I struggle when I see the person he was just a few short months ago.
And thank you Woosa. I appreciate the encouragement
He disappeared for roughly 12 hours yesterday. His D was with her mom for the weekend. Mine was with me part of the day, but then off with her best friend. He was completely dark on social media which is not like him at all. I went from distraught, to livid, to calm but never contacted him. I could see him popping on and off FB so I knew he wasn’t dead or injured. My friend came to get me. Forced me out if the house so I wouldn’t sit in this. Or wait for him. I got home after bar close and he was home. Car hood was cool. He didn’t hear me come in and was in the bathroom. He had to work at 4am today. He came out and nearly had a heart attack. With a couple drinks in me I just laughed, said good night and went to bed. The genuine shock in his face after that was priceless. I’m stuck with wondering if I should pick the boundary fight since he agreed specifically to not disappearing for hours, with the consideration that the last time I brought it up the conversation immediately became a conversation about how controlling and nit picky I am, or do I let it be and refuse to acknowledge his ridiculous adolescent boundary pushing? I don’t know that I want him to have the satisfaction of knowing it got under my skin or give him another opportunity to use how controlling I am. But then am I a doormat?
I would sleep on it Wayfarer and think about what your goals are. What do you hope to achieve by “picking the boundary fight”? Personally, if I were you, I wouldn’t even let on that I had noticed he was gone. And I would double down on my GAL activities and stop checking to see what he is doing or not doing on SM. Honestly...why drive yourself crazy like that? And why should you have to explain where he is? I think he can explain that himself if your Ds want to know. If they ask you, you can be honest and just say he went out and didn’t tell you where he was going.
That look of shock on his face when he saw you and you just laughed and went to bed? THAT’s what you want. You want to challenge his ideas about you. Remember...he’s not doing this to get under your skin or expose you as a controlling person. He’s just doing what he feels like doing.
You set a March 1st date to revisit things. What can you do between now and then to GAL and do the 180s you need to do for you so that if he decides to ask you for a D, you will be in a better place to deal with it. That’s what you should be focusing on right now.
Sorry. I know this is hard. The more you can keep the focus on you and your Ds, the better off you will be. (((HUGS)))
I would sleep on it Wayfarer and think about what your goals are. What do you hope to achieve by “picking the boundary fight”? Personally, if I were you, I wouldn’t even let on that I had noticed he was gone. And I would double down on my GAL activities and stop checking to see what he is doing or not doing on SM. Honestly...why drive yourself crazy like that? And why should you have to explain where he is? I think he can explain that himself if your Ds want to know. If they ask you, you can be honest and just say he went out and didn’t tell you where he was going.
I did sleep on it, twice, I left it alone yesterday, and I'm not bringing up his crappy behavior, because that's exactly what he wants me to do. I'd rather him wonder why I didn't set his crap on fire on the front lawn and am acting like nothing happened. The only thing I hoped to achieve is not coming off like he can do anything he wants and I'm ok with it. Because I'm not. His MLC is BS, and his behavior is deplorable.The other point is he made an agreement to tell me where he's going even if he's not coming home, even if he's with the OW, or at the very least lie, so I'm not the one explaining his crappy behavior. So letting him explain himself to the girls is probably the best compromise to creating a boundary here, "If you can't abide by our agreement and try to keep things calm and predictable for the girls then you will have to explain where you are. I'm not lying or making excuses for you," kind of thing.
I stayed away from social media and phone records for about 8 hours of no contact. After that point it was more if seeing if he was alive. He is a social media wh**e. Always has been. The fact that he posted absolutely nothing in the last 48-72 hours is completely and totally out of character for him even in this fun new phase of life. He's the type to post like 4 or 5 times a day on multiple platforms. He loves the attention.
That look of shock on his face when he saw you and you just laughed and went to bed? THAT’s what you want. You want to challenge his ideas about you. Remember...he’s not doing this to get under your skin or expose you as a controlling person. He’s just doing what he feels like doing.
He is doing what he feels like doing, but a lot of his behavior is to goad me into being the person he's presented me as to OW. There have been a lot of "you always" " you never" accusations pointed at me. If I question literally anything it's me being controlling. I'd love to say this is solely him just doing whatever he wants to do, but it's not. He's been trying to bait me in fights, bait me into kicking him out, and the behavior he thinks he has me pegged for, so he can prove I'm the bad guy here. As unkind as this is he's a coward by nature, even before all this, he never wanted to deal with looking like the problem. At this point anything I do that will make him look justified and not like the bad guy here is exactly what he wants.
I am working hard on GAL and 180 but as I've said coming out of depression none of this is easy or quick. I do have plenty to do. I have 2 teenagers that don't drive. I'm working on getting into a master's program, started a dance class, started running again. But I'm a homebody by nature. I would love to just be home and read my book and that really may be part of why I'm struggling. Keeping the girls out, and going, going, going, drains me and makes it difficult for me to detach appropriately. Honestly I'd be fine with either the D or R. I know that sounds unreasonable, because I see lot of people are super resistant to moving on. Don't get me wrong, I love him and want to save my marriage, but I know I can't, and won't live like this forever. I deserve more than this. At the very least D or R is definitive. It's living in limbo like this and wondering if he'll snap out of this or if this time period and that last 7 years of my life have been a complete waste is what's awful.
He is doing what he feels like doing, but a lot of his behavior is to goad me into being the person he's presented me as to OW. There have been a lot of "you always" " you never" accusations pointed at me. If I question literally anything it's me being controlling. I'd love to say this is solely him just doing whatever he wants to do, but it's not. He's been trying to bait me in fights, bait me into kicking him out, and the behavior he thinks he has me pegged for, so he can prove I'm the bad guy here. As unkind as this is he's a coward by nature, even before all this, he never wanted to deal with looking like the problem. At this point anything I do that will make him look justified and not like the bad guy here is exactly what he wants.
This paragraph is troubling because none of it matters. He is going to tell OW awful stuff about you, whether or not you give into his goading! You could be Mother Teresa.....but to her he will present you as Jezebel. You can't worry about that, or what he tells OW.
However, you are right in that any bad behavior on your part is going to justify, in his mind, that he is right in wanting to leave. That is why DBing is about NOT doing that. You mention GAL and 180s. Those are great. But the real money is in detachment. Because then you will not react emotionally to what he says or does.
I've put it this way to other posters: The goal with detachment is that he could come to you and tell you "Please stop what you are doing, I need to tell you something. Last night I had an orgy with 10 women." and your reaction would be "Oh...ok." And then to go back to what you are doing. As Deja said, NOT reacting the way you normally do is what will really get him to wonder what is going on. That is why detachment is brilliant. You don't react. He starts to question things. And you get peace of mind no matter what he says or does!
Now GAL and 180ing can help with that. Be busy! Be improving! Be working on yourself! Think about it this way. #1 rule in DBing: do not start R talks....if he does, listen and validate and end it as soon as you can.
He comes to you and says: "We need to discuss what to do with the dogs. I feel I should get them after the D."
You: "So you feel the dogs should go with you?"
Him: "Correct."
You: "Ok, I need some time to consider that. In the meantime, I have some where to be, I'll have to get back to you on this later." Then go be busy!!
See? You listened. You validated. You didn't give him a definite answer, then you went and GAL.DBING!
Steve I appreciate the feedback. You hit the nail on the head when you said the real money is in detachment. I know I'm really, really struggling there. He's in the home. He in fact, always comes home. He's on the couch. Not allowed any where near the MBR. But home. And I think the physical proximity makes it difficult. We're not exactly working with 3000 sq ft. On top of that he seems to have no intention of moving out any time soon, and a, frankly, vague interest in actually pursuing and filing a damn thing.
I just need to just buckle down and work at it everyday.
As far as relationship talks, made an agreement to not say a word about about the relationship until March 1st. Even if he can't be held accountable, I can. So mum's the word. I don't anticipate having any kind of conversation with him about that stuff any time soon. It's always business with the kids and the household when we do actually talk. And I've had a lot of chances to exercise validation and restraint because on his good days he likes to pretend we're friends and that I care about what ever work/friend/kid story he wants to tell me that day.
Lastly, the worrying about what he's saying. I'm trying very hard. And I'm failing. While I know I shouldn't care, my depression being ramped up starts to ramp up my anxiety and I worry what the ENTIRE world is thinking of me. When I'm balanced I'm the kind of girl who could give a flying flip about anyone else's opinion. Which brings us back to the detachment I guess. I've had my meds up, but it takes time. All of it takes time I guess.
Question, is it normal for the the GALing to piss the wayward spouse off? I've noticed he's been making some really snotty/passive aggressive comments about my running, my diet changes, and social media posts where I'm tagged out with friends (I am not like hanging on randos at the bar, I've mostly been 3rd wheeling with married friends, being in larger groups of married people, or with just my girl friends). I've been ignoring it. But yesterday he walked into the MBR and said "you bought a new scale?" (this thing was like $15 so it clearly wasn't about the money) I said "yup," and just kept eye contact. As much as I wanted to ask why I knew I shouldn't. After an uncomfortable amount of eye contact he finally broke gaze and said "oh" and turned around and walked out. It was a super weird interaction. I didn't think GAL would irritate him.
Question, is it normal for the the GALing to piss the wayward spouse off? I've noticed he's been making some really snotty/passive aggressive comments about my running, my diet changes, and social media posts where I'm tagged out with friends (I am not like hanging on randos at the bar, I've mostly been 3rd wheeling with married friends, being in larger groups of married people, or with just my girl friends). I've been ignoring it. But yesterday he walked into the MBR and said "you bought a new scale?" (this thing was like $15 so it clearly wasn't about the money) I said "yup," and just kept eye contact. As much as I wanted to ask why I knew I shouldn't. After an uncomfortable amount of eye contact he finally broke gaze and said "oh" and turned around and walked out. It was a super weird interaction. I didn't think GAL would irritate him.
Yes. Very common. Believe it or not the WAS still likes to have control over the LBS. Even though they are leaving them. He is used to certain dynamics in your relationship with him. When that changes, they start feeling that loss of control. You are Plan B, and he wants his Plan B firmly in place in case Plan A fizzles or never materializes. When you GAL he feels like Plan B is going away. This scares him and he will start acting out towards you. I wrote a few days ago to another poster about this very dynamic.
So the short answer is yes. Keep GAL. Like a mad woman.
Question, is it normal for the the GALing to piss the wayward spouse off?
Yes as Steve said it's normal. He wants you sitting at home crying and pining away for him. He wants you secure as Plan B in case his grandiose plans of finding the perfect replacement don't pan out. When you instead go out and GAL and (GASP!) even enjoy yourself, well then he realizes he's losing his Plan B and doesn't have the control he thought he had. And that at first will make him angry, then later make him sad, then yet later possibly make him question what he's done and start the process of sorting his life out.
I've noticed he's been making some really snotty/passive aggressive comments about my running, my diet changes, and social media posts where I'm tagged out with friends (I am not like hanging on randos at the bar, I've mostly been 3rd wheeling with married friends, being in larger groups of married people, or with just my girl friends). I've been ignoring it.
Good, ignoring it is exactly what you should do.
But yesterday he walked into the MBR and said "you bought a new scale?" (this thing was like $15 so it clearly wasn't about the money) I said "yup," and just kept eye contact. As much as I wanted to ask why I knew I shouldn't. After an uncomfortable amount of eye contact he finally broke gaze and said "oh" and turned around and walked out. It was a super weird interaction.
Perfect!
I didn't think GAL would irritate him.
It's not the GAL that's doing it, it's his realization that he can't control you and keep you where he wants you. He's got to learn to miss you.
WF,
I'm sorry you're here - this really s*cks. Your H doesn't know his head from his butt right now. It will likely be a long time until he gains some clarity. Like a few of the others have mentioned, keep the focus on you.
This is going to sound harsh, but you have to learn to stop checking in on him. I see you making the same mistakes I have made, and honestly, it will drive you far more crazy trying to know everything he is up to. Checking the phone bill, monitoring social media, and feeling his car to see if it's warm? These activities will only further perpetuate your suffering.
It sounds like you are getting out and GALing, making positive changes for WAY, and enjoying time with Ds. Focus on these things instead. H is going to have great days and bad days and, if you let them, his ups and downs will affect you. Instead, focus on your own growth and becoming the wayfarer that you've always wanted to be. Vent here, and know that you have so much support and people rooting for you!
((hugs))
KG
Just kind of journaling: Read the Infidelity and MLC chapters in DR last night. Then got on here and gorged on the MLC board. So I think I can say with certainty this 37 year old man is deep in a MLC. The same person who was completely MIA for 12+ hours 3 days ago, made dinner last night so I could go on a run with a friend, and must have used 'babe' at least 5 times. I seriously don't know how people ride this insanity out for years. I desperately want to be that light house. I equally want to throat punch him. ( I have not nor ever will hit him) Truly, if I didn't have an amazing support system who won't tell me they think I'm crazy for sticking this out to my face, and a C I have no idea how I or any one would survive this ridiculousness for more than a few weeks.
Ok I'm sorry for rapid fire posting but this man just IM'd me at work asking when we're going to tell the girls about him and his daughter moving out and our divorce. When I said I'd rather not talk about this at work he kept pushing. What i got was he heard the March 1st date as the day I wanted him out of the house. When I said that wasn't the plan the plan was to reassess on March 1, he responded with "I don't really see me changing between now and March 1"
What the hell does that even mean?
I got him to agree to talk about this tonight away from the girls. And not while I'm at work. But I could kill him. This is insane. I want my husband. I want my marriage. But I don't want this version of my husband and I sure as hell don't want this marriage.
Just kind of journaling: Read the Infidelity and MLC chapters in DR last night. Then got on here and gorged on the MLC board. So I think I can say with certainty this 37 year old man is deep in a MLC. The same person who was completely MIA for 12+ hours 3 days ago, made dinner last night so I could go on a run with a friend, and must have used 'babe' at least 5 times. I seriously don't know how people ride this insanity out for years. I desperately want to be that light house. I equally want to throat punch him. ( I have not nor ever will hit him) Truly, if I didn't have an amazing support system who won't tell me they think I'm crazy for sticking this out to my face, and a C I have no idea how I or any one would survive this ridiculousness for more than a few weeks.
Remember, the WAS is on their own emotional roller-coaster. MLC. WS. Whatever they are they cycle just like you do. Further, they like to give you some breadcrumbs to keep you squarely in place as their Plan B. That is likely the making dinner and calling you babe.
Ok I'm sorry for rapid fire posting but this man just IM'd me at work asking when we're going to tell the girls about him and his daughter moving out and our divorce. When I said I'd rather not talk about this at work he kept pushing. What i got was he heard the March 1st date as the day I wanted him out of the house. When I said that wasn't the plan the plan was to reassess on March 1, he responded with "I don't really see me changing between now and March 1"
What the hell does that even mean?
I got him to agree to talk about this tonight away from the girls. And not while I'm at work. But I could kill him. This is insane. I want my husband. I want my marriage. But I don't want this version of my husband and I sure as hell don't want this marriage.
I would have continued to avoid the messages.
"Sorry, very busy, can't discuss now." Then ignore him.
Tonight, when he talks, listen and validate. Study the validation thread. Remember, you can deflect too when he tries to pin you down.
"So when are we telling the girls I am moving out?"
"I really need some time to consider everything, this is a lot to think about."
Listen. Validate. Deflect. Do not get into back and forths. Do not get into specifics.
I don't remember, have you read DB/DR?
And my W was the same way. "We can do MC but I don't think it will help." "We can go to this marriage retreat but it probably won't change anything."
BELIEVE NOTHING HE SAYS. AND ONLY HALF OF WHAT HE DOES!
I just finished DR. But this is all moving so damn quickly. I just got the book right before Christmas. I've only gotten half way decent at detachment. We went from fine to this in 90 days.
I will definitely review the validation post. But I don't know how to get through this conversation with out him pinning me to something. How to do I get him to agree to like a Retrouvaille before he runs out the door like he's on fire? We have one near by in March, April and June. I don't know why everything has to be a decision right now.
I'm sprialing on this because he hasn't even made a half hearted fake effort to try to save this. I have no idea what on a Wednesday afternoon would make him think, well I think we should have the D talk via IM. This is such chaos.
PS I'm taking a run in the gym at work before I go home or I won't survive this. I know that.
ANy way to make plans? Get a sitter for the kids, make plans. Then inform him something came up and you can't talk tonight.
That will buy you time to study validation. To mentally and emotionally prepare. And I really think you are strong enough not to agree to anything.
Even statements like: "I do not think you should move out. Ever. But I can't stop you from doing so." Are better than saying "Yes I agree" to something that you do not agree to.
Stay strong wayfarer. Learn. Grow. Don't try to fix him, just focus on you.
How well did you know him before you married him seven yrs ago? Anything in his past that could be triggered by some recent event and throw him into a crisis?
Has there been any issues with inappropriate behavior since you'be been together? How does he act around women? Does he get flirty? Does he make sexual comments to you about other women? Does he have private friendships with females that just happen to exclude spouses? If you answer yes to any of these questions, you will need to seriously search your heart and know if you really want to continue with this man. If there has been a pattern of pushing the marital boundaries, then I doubt the problem is MLC, but rather, waywardness.
Sometimes MLC continues for a looooong time. Are you prepared, emotionally---financially---spiritually---(well, let's just say in
every way) to take on the challenge? This is not going to be resolved overnight, if he is having a MLC. IMHO, if a man is ready to sexually share his W with another man, in order to experience his own sexual needs from other women, instead of being faithful.........the fat lady is warming her vocal cords on this MR. KWIM?
If you decide you want to fight for your M, then the first thing you need to know is that fighting for your M means you don't fight with him. Seriously, you have got to throw out the old score board. Don't misunderstand, I'm not telling you to become a doormat. I'm saying that you will need to change your mental attitude and learn a new method that does not include screaming, shouting, cussing, slamming, throwing, cold shoulders, icy tones, one-ups, getting even, and........the rest of a long list you may be guilty of using, IDK.
He is not going to change any time soon, if ever. So, how do you respond and/or react to this guy he has become? We can't tell you everything in one post, but we can help you get started. The post that was sent your way by Cadet or Job, has a ton of valuable information, so please don't ignore it. If you need a guide as to how to behave on a daily basis, look to Sandi's Rules. The next thing I suggest you study is the subject of personal boundaries. The purpose of boundaries is all about protecting your feelings, dignity, and respect. It's not about controlling the other person. The only one you have power to control is yourself. Boundaries are necessary, but they are not effective if there are no consequences for the person who ignores your boundaries. Make sense? We can discuss this subject more, if you want. Just a suggestion, you may want to research boundaries in a relationship.
If you have a set of moral standards, spiritual beliefs, etc., that guides your daily life and how you interact with strangers, co-workers, friends, and loved ones........then you use those guides to form emotional, protective, boundaries. Remember, it is not about punishment, control, getting even, or paying back. Study the link on boundaries.
The next important, and I think the most misunderstood technique, is DB detaching. The link in the homework is pretty wordy, and if I can remember, I'll send a copy of DB detaching that is a shorter form, to get you started. I think it is hard for the newcomer b/c they are usually the ones who want to save the MR, and their emotions have been traumatized. IMHO, it seems most LBS's have difficulty maintaining even keel. Most LBS's will dramatically shift too far up or down, east or west, left or right. It's like driving a vehicle on the street. You have to stay between the lines, or take a big chance of making things much, much worse.
Your H has made it pretty clear that he is not interested in you or the MR. The more you try to persuade him to see things differently, or the more you try to vocally convince him the M can change for the better..........the more he is going to resist, He is in an emotional battle with life. He will drag down and/or fight anyone who tries to tell him what he doesn't want to hear. He cannot learn through hearing words. He has to learn visually and experiential. Anything else is useless. This is one reason facing the consequences from dishonoring boundaries works well. Boundaries are not an opportunity to lecture. He is tone deaf. He can't read anything you might suggest, nor watch a video or listen to a tape about marriage. Those features have died.
Therefore, you have to discipline yourself when you have the desire to explode on him, or try once more to just have a relationship discussion. It only sets you back to square one.
I said all that ^^^^^ to introduce the action I believe works best. Based on the mindset he has, he sees you as another source of emotional pressure. Maybe he sees it as the main source of unhappiness, or whatever. He sees himself happier if only he were free. His life is passing by too quickly and he will resist anything that gets in his way of grabbing for the gusto that awaits him. Ugh! Unfortunately, that includes having other women. If he had high morals, they seem to be gone, and currently, he is suggesting an open M. That tells me he is willing to put not only his M, but his W at risk......by inviting others to be intimate.
He is so wrapped up in himself that he doesn't see anything else. He may have an unmet emotional need, but he is currently unwilling to "do the right thing" like a logical, sane adult. To cut to the chase, I am suggesting you become the dump-
er, instead of the dump
-ee. Let your attitude, GAL, personal attention, one-on-one time, home environment, family activity, etc., paint a picture for him. He sees he is losing his W of seven yrs. He no longer gets text messages from her throughout the day/night, checking in with him. If he wants to spend the night out, he has to get a babysitter, b/c his W is out getting her own life. He doesn't know what she's doing, b/c she doesn't care to share anything. In fact, there are several things about his W that tells him she is moving on. She doesn't ask him anything about his life, their MR, his future plans........nothing. She doesn't complain, preach, get revenge, nor act like a victim. He doesn't know what is going on in her head, but she looks and acts differently. He wonders if she wants a divorce. He wonders if he has lost her.
I can almost read your mind. "Isn't this exactly what he wants?" I can explain more, later. Just let me assure you that I am not telling you to do any action that goes against your personal belief system. I'm not telling you to do anything with revenge or hatred. You need to let him go. I mean, you behave as if you have emotionally let go of him. That's what he needs to feel. No pressure from you. Another thing you have to do is let go of the anger. Okay, so that will be tough, but don't show anger to him. You can be spunky, but not angry.
Got to close this long post. Hope I have not thrown too much into one post. If you have questions, please ask.
Here's a shorter version explaining detachment.
**************************************************************************************
Definition of Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love (known as to lovingly detach*), we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flip-side, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my duty/job to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she really is rather than who I want him/her to be.
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
Even statements like: "I do not think you should move out. Ever. But I can't stop you from doing so." Are better than saying "Yes I agree" to something that you do not agree to.
Stay strong wayfarer. Learn. Grow. Don't try to fix him, just focus on you.
Steve that is exactly what I needed in my pocket and I needed the encouragement too.
I'm a quick study I've already been working on validating. Just read a whole bunch on the board about it. It's deflecting that I need more practice with. Trial by fire I suppose.
Our kids are teens. I could come up with something if I really wanted to, but a part of me just wants to get this over with. This is the first time he's flat out said he wants the divorce. So I think he needs me to hear him, even though I really don't want to.
Hey Sandy I think you may have missed some information. We have been married short of 3 years and together for 7. I did know him before actually for a while we were friends for a few years before we ever started dating. 2 single parents who never were single single at the same time. And then it happened and we clicked. however if there was a specific trigger, I couldn't tell you. My mother died at the age of 54 in 2018. He'd never been that close to death before. He had his 15th anniversary at his job this fall. He can't keep weight off like he used to. Our kids are very close to leaving the nest. We each had our kids super young so even though we're in our mid to late 30s we're behind on life and I've been pushing to be less behind. More saving. Looking for homes. Retirement financial planning. That kind of stuff.
He is an attention seeker, period. Women, men, every one. He wants everyone to like him and find him entertaining and good company.
He did not ask for an open marriage. I did. And I did so because it truly is an option.Even if I wasn't 100% serious about it when I suggested it. I mostly suggested it to see where he was at. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with that. He was very clear that me being touched by any one else while we were married was unacceptable. Granted he's allowed to come and go as he pleases....
I've been through DR and all of the newbie links. I read fervently because it's the only real control I have over any of this. I've been struggling with detachment but I've been doing relatively well with it with a few hurdles. And doubling down on my 180 and GALing.
Honestly I'm wondering if this "talk" has come out of the wood work because I have been living my life. I have been giving him the space he wants, not asking questions about where he is or what he's doing. I don't reach out unless a kid needs a ride or household business. I don't complain preach or ask for much of anything unless it's something I absolutely can't accomplish on my own.
Our kids are teens. I could come up with something if I really wanted to, but a part of me just wants to get this over with. This is the first time he's flat out said he wants the divorce. So I think he needs me to hear him, even though I really don't want to.
We refer to this as the illusion of needing to do something. Often times the best thing to do is nothing.
Be advised, these R talks rarely, if ever, go well for the LBS. This is why we say to avoid them, and to certainly not start them. Just keep that in mind.
Hang in there wayfarer. Remember, marathon, not a sprint.
It went about as poorly and well as I anticipated. He wants to move out in April. There’s nothing left in the marriage to save. He’s not in love with me any more. And he can’t invest himself in this relationship. I said I understand he feels that way and I’m sorry that he feels so desperately that he needs out. And that, that isn’t under pretty much any circumstances what I would want, but I can’t make him love me or stay. When I further inquired about his plan to set up a second household for him and his daughter I got a very deer in the headlights look. Followed by well I’ll put a deposit down on an apartment. When I asked where he’d sleep and where they’d sit, blank stare. “I’ll figure it out.” Ok. So I follow up with ok so if you leave in April what’s the time line you were thinking about filing? And are you thinking divorce or legal separation? Deer in the head lights. “Can we maybe think about that after I move out?” I tell him sure absolutely. I informed him that I will do my best to keep this amicable and assist in dividing things in the household but I’m not planning his leaving me and he needs to figure this out in detail if this is what he wants. I’m not A typing myself all over him walking away from the marriage. He said he understood. He also said he doesn’t want to set a date just yet to talk to the girls about moving out. Maybe when he’s ready to start dividing things up. I also told him that I’ve been putting things in motion in my life to be able to live with out him but I won’t be solvent in maintaining where we live until June of this year (a raise and some other things line up at that time) so if he’s leaving in April I’d need some, not a ton of assistance in April and May. He was not happy. I said you are choosing to leave me. I’m not trying to blackmail you but I’m not putting myself out because of the arbitrary timeline you’ve created. I’m not asking you stay until June. I’m asking that if you want to go before I can afford it that you do the right thing.
I know not every thing I said was above board DB wise but I kept my emotions in check and my wits about me so fit me that was a win.
I want to be mad and cry. But I can’t. I just feel annoyed and inconvenienced. I don’t know if I’m telling myself it won’t happen because it’s so far out. Or if I really am just not emotionally invested in him staying here infinitely doing whatever he wants when he wants.
Remember, these are all words. My wife had big plans like this too. She never picked a time but she was very clear: she was getting a job, an apartment and a divorce.
No follow through. Based on his lack of answers I'm guessing he'll still be there come June. But that's a guess.
Do you have an inkling at all of there being someone else? The fantasy is really strong with him. Does he really think he'll not have to pay support?
If he does start to follow through I highly suggest a getting a lawyer to draw up a separation agreement for the support.
Overall, it sounds like you handled it well.
There is an OW. With a live in boyfriend. When he suggested money will be tight so he’ll see what he could do I asked if he’s sure it’ll be that bad because I assumed he’d have a “roommate.” He continues to insist that I’ve blown his EA out of proportion. It’s not like that. He’s just not happy in our marriage. And while their friendship is inappropriate he’s not asking he to leave her bf, because they are just friends.
The fantasy is insanely strong. He thinks we can be friends if this all ends the way he wants it to.
There is an OW. With a live in boyfriend. When he suggested money will be tight so he’ll see what he could do I asked if he’s sure it’ll be that bad because I assumed he’d have a “roommate.” He continues to insist that I’ve blown his EA out of proportion. It’s not like that. He’s just not happy in our marriage. And while their friendship is inappropriate he’s not asking he to leave her bf, because they are just friends.
The fantasy is insanely strong. He thinks we can be friends if this all ends the way he wants it to.
Yes, so much like my W. She had this all worked out. I'd keep the house, her apartment would be nearby. She'd still have a key so she could help with the dogs. She'd come over and play house occasionally by making us dinner. Or she would have me over there to have dinner with D14 (at the time).
When I told her I'd be selling the house and potentially moving in with a buddy, she was incredulous. Until I pointed out that it wasn't fair to think she could move on with her life but expected me to remain stuck, that I would be moving on with my life too.
This was all because she had decided she wanted to sleep with other people. She never followed through with it but that was her underlying motivation.
Steve, I keep thinking about the thing you said about keeping his plan B firmly in place. It feels like he wants out a) because he's avoidant as it is but b) because he can pursue the OW the way he wants to with a place of his own, but if we don't file anything then his plan B is still secure enough.
He knows if he chooses divorce the second the papers are signed I will cut him and any one in his periphery out of my life. Minus his daughter. She will always be welcome in my home and with me. So I'm not sure why he keeps pushing the friends thing.
Early in this mess, weeks ago, is when he brought up the friends thing the first time, and I said on what planet am I going to be friends with my ex H that I have no children with? I'm only cordial enough with the father of my child out of obligation. I don't go backwards with exes. (He has a history of dating a girl multiple times, and it failing multiple times; OW is someone he dated 10 years ago for a few months) I am the type to keep trying until there's no more try left in me, so when I'm done I'm done. He brought the friends thing up again last night with a qualifier of "I know not right away. I know it'll take some time. I know how you are." There's like this weird anticipation that he can keep this door open no matter how much I say if this ends in divorce there is no friends option.
I'm trying to stay optimistic that none of this will come to fruition. That maybe I'll get lucky and he'll start coming to by April or just not be committed enough to stick to his plan. But if I'm really honest with myself I don't know that I'll be entirely devastated to see him move out. The constant push and pull he's putting me through day to day is mentally and emotionally exhausting the physical distance might be nice.
wayfarer.......just an observation. A guy that likes to "keep the door open" with exes? That is a HUGE red-flag. If you were someone I knew and you told me the guy you were planning on marrying was still friends with his exes I would have warned you that there is a highly likelihood that he will cheat on you one day.
"He brought the friends thing up again last night with a qualifier of "I know not right away. I know it'll take some time. I know how you are." There's like this weird anticipation that he can keep this door open no matter how much I say if this ends in divorce there is no friends option."
This will be important: stop saying it and when the time comes just do it. He sounds like the type that will occasionally ping you after D "just to see how you are doing". Your actions in that will be extremely important. Personally, I would not even respond to those kinds of things. And would block his email address, phone #, social media or whatever communication mode he is using at the point.
wayfarer, can I ask a question? Why does this guy still deserve you?
Steve, you clearly would've been right. But he was a different man with me than the 20 something version of himself. I know it sounds absolutely ridiculous and so child like. However, his family and his friends said and say so. He was an adult responsible version of himself they hadn't really seen before. So I naively accepted that I was special or different. And the fact that I was the longest relationship he had ever been in made me think that was true until it wasn't
As far as deserves. Prior to all this, he was my best friend. He was the yang to my yin. He felt like home immediately. We have similar up bringing. Similar interests but not to similar so that we could enjoy things together and apart and open each others mind. Similar work ethic. What I thought were similar goals and values. It all fell into place like it was always supposed to be this way. I honestly kept pulling away in the beginning because it made me nervous how easy everything was when I knew how problematic he could be. He pursued me in a way no other man had. When we got serious he was my partner and was my equal in our home. We carried everything together. Honestly at home he still carries his weight. 50/50 with out me asking. I mean I guess those are reasons why I still love him and why I think he deserves me to wait him out a bit. But why he still deserves me. I don't know. The person who left work, picked up my daughter and drove 4 hours to be by my side while my mother took her last breath deserves me. This person that I'm living with right now, the person that lies, and runs, and imploded our lives because he felt unfulfilled and won't even make a half hearted attempt at saving our marriage, I don't know that that guy deserves me at all.
Today was rough. Like I struggled at work rough. I just can’t shake the sadness from the feeling that my marriage is over. That he didn’t even try. And that all of this is against my will. Thankfully he’s out tonight.
We carried everything together. Honestly at home he still carries his weight. 50/50 with out me asking. I mean I guess those are reasons why I still love him and why I think he deserves me to wait him out a bit. But why he still deserves me. I don't know. The person who left work, picked up my daughter and drove 4 hours to be by my side while my mother took her last breath deserves me. This person that I'm living with right now, the person that lies, and runs, and imploded our lives because he felt unfulfilled and won't even make a half hearted attempt at saving our marriage, I don't know that that guy deserves me at all.
My heart aches with you. I have similar feelings with my H also. I don’t believe my H is no longer that person he was in the past, but it is really like what others have said- it’s like the old H was abducted by aliens. Whether old H will return or not, I am prepared to know that he will probably different. I am different. Meanwhile it’s up to us whether we want to wait for the aliens to return our Hs back to earth.
I’m just nodding along with both of you, wayfarer and Woosa. Wayfarer, I’m sorry you had an especially rough day. I know these feelings too. I hope tomorrow is better. The sadness comes and goes for me.
Honestly one of the best things about this dumpster fire of a situation is knowing I'm not alone. I'm not crazy. That I'm not the only one who feels/felt like their spouse was body snatched. Cardinal and Woosa you don't know how much it means to know I'm not the only one aching, angry, and anxious in turn.
And thank you Cardinal. Today is already better day. Today I'm GALing my ever shrinking butt off. My friend scored some VIP tickets to a fun female focused event and the cocktail hour before hand. I'm so ready to be in a room full of rowdy empowered women, lol. That's who I was pre-depression, pre-grief, and pre-BD. I miss her, that person I used to be, sometimes a lot more than I miss him.
This weekend has been a bit of an eye opener. I saw a psychic and it’s so silly but it made such a difference in my attitude. She was basically quoting DR to me while laying cards and it was one of the most validating things I’ve ever had happen to me. Detaching is getting easier and easier. I haven’t checked up on his social media or the phone bill in days and I don’t care to. He was gone for hours I didn’t panic. I miss him desperately in this bed at night but damn near every other time of the day, him and his whirlwind of crazy rarely take the forefront of my mind. I just feel more at ease. Less intense. It’s a good feeling.
As awful as this whole thing has been, and even though I still don’t know what the out come will be, this disaster is starting to feel like a blessing in growth for me. I’ve been waiting around for him for so long I forgot about me. I’ve been living in depression for so long I forgot about me. This has given me an opportunity to fast forward my recovery from depression. Jump starting my life has been huge in staying mentally healthy. But bigger still are the lessons I’m being forced into here. I’m A type. Painfully A type. And this have been one of the hardest exercises in patience and letting go that I’ve ever experienced. But approaching the challenge everyday has been one of the major things carrying me through this hit mess. I know with or without him I’m getting to the other side of this a better person.
wayfarer, as LBSs we all romanticize how great our relationship was before BD. In truth, often times we were just as unhappy, maybe even more so, than the WAS was. This is why it is important to have the attitude that the old MR is DEAD. And that if you do R with your spouse that it will be MR 2.0. That you refuse to settle for the dynamic in the original MR because that will be short-lived and you will be headed for BD #2.
In fact, I lived that. My W had her first EA in 2005. I made changes, required nothing of her (other than end the EA). We shortly thereafter settled into our old normal. After about 2 years, things deteriorated even further until BD#2 just 2 years ago. While it took 12 years, eventually enough factors (less than ideal MR, same ol' problems before, W hitting a milestone age, etc) converged to trigger BD#2, in the midst of another EA on her part.
So you are on the right path. You need to become a better wayfarer....and then require changes of him before you'd agree to MR 2.0. And while that scares many LBSs, there is so much power in this. As other posters like to say, you will never be more attractive than when you are walking away! So tell him what it will take for you accept him back, when and if the time comes (I am not suggesting you start a R talk, but be ready if and he he does).
I don't understand what's happening.I don't know if this guy is bread crumbing me or what? And I'm trying to just let it ride but his behavior is odd, even for the alien. We spoke maybe 3 sentences to each other from Friday-Yesterday if it wasn't about the kids or the house. One of which was him asking when I got in Friday night after going out. But left it after I said "I don't know like 3." Yesterday he engaged me in a convo about my step-D, which all I said was "oh good, thank you for telling her to take the bus i'm heading to the gym after work" which he then turned into an entire conversation about the gym, and the luck he's had with certain locations being more empty than others and what times are best. Told him I was going to try a new location near my job that neither of us have ever been to. But would try his suggested location last night and new location later this week. End of convo. Ran into an old friend at the gym got home like 45 min later than I had said I would be. He was already "out to dinner." Was gone until I'm not totally sure. After I went to bed. 8:45 this morning texts me about the gym location I wanted to try. Said he went there this morning. Gave me all the details about the space and about parking. Like these are conversations we have? We didn't even talk about this kinda of nuanced crap when we were fine. He sure as hell wasn't reconning gym locations for me. I swear to god, if I wasn't a responsible adult, I'd be day drinking right now.
Way,
It seems like he is trying to make sure you are still there. Making up convos about non threatening, light hearted things to see if you will still respond. I'm guilty of doing this too. When you're in a crisis situation with someone you've spent a good amount of your life with, you have this inner need to stay in contact. I would almost guarantee you that his messages are driven by anxiety from not speaking with you. Stay light, friendly, detached - if you respond at all. I would try to ignore responding for a time as well. Don't jump at the bait the second he reaches out. Good luck! I know it can be infuriating and confusing all at the same time.
KG
I'm desperately trying to detach and not over analyze but we're on to day 2 of him doing this, whatever this is. I went out last night. I was very clear I was going to dinner with our neighbor. But I let her come home with out me. We live in a large duplex. So when she came home he'd know. She's the upstairs neighbor. After she went back home. I went to meet a different friend at the bar she works at. It was dead so I had some coffee and just chit chatted. But I wanted to make sure I was out just as late as he was Tuesday. I get home around midnight he's not there. But the TV was still on in the living room/his current bedroom. My D 17 was confused when I asked when he left thinking the promise of feeding the kids and spending time with them was all abandoned to go "out." He was dozing watching TV after 11 according to her. He did take them out for dinner. Had an extra kid with them, one of the girl's friends. Picked the friend up and dropped her off. Apparently had an amazing night with the kids. But wasn't there when I got home. This is the real kicker. Other than the 8:45am very short text exchange he and I had yesterday we didn't speak once. 9:45am today I get a text about how he got 15lbs of bacon and he'll be dividing and freezing it, oh and he'll make BLT's for dinner. I've let it sit so far. I'll respond eventually. But what is going on!? Seriously. If he were a jerk all the time this would all be so much easier.
Ever hear the the Supremes' song "Keep Me Hangin' On"? THAT is what he is doing. He wants to make sure Plan B is still solidly in place.
Why are you going to respond to his informational text? That shows him you are still hangin' on.
Text rule:
If the text is informational, do not respond. If the text is a direct question, respond in your own time (not alway right away), but in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions get yes or no answers.
He felt your starting to detach and is breadcrumbing you back.............
Steve, I know how wise you are. And I'm gonna trust you on this. He's trying to Hansel and Gretel me all the way to the oven. I'll leave the text all together as directed. Question though, this response, this means I'm doing something right here, correct?
Steve, I know how wise you are. And I'm gonna trust you on this. He's trying to Hansel and Gretel me all the way to the oven. I'll leave the text all together as directed. Question though, this response, this means I'm doing something right here, correct?
I believe it is always good to see the WAS start to come sniffing back around. Even if at first it is just to try to keep you attached, it is still a sign that there is interest. The problem is that the LBS sometimes starts accepting the WAS back too quickly, and stop doing the things that got them to that point to begin with. So don't make that mistake. It is like fishing, if you start to reel in the fish before the hook is set, you will lose the fish.
How will you know when the hook is set? You WILL know. It will not be ambiguous like it is now.
Believe nothing he says and 1/2 of what he does! I think I got this. Keep doing what I'm doing. Keep working on GAL, my 180s, and detaching. I'll know when I know.
Hey Wayfarer,
I'm so sorry this is all happening and I have so much empathy for you. I'm going to put something out there that might feel harsh and I don't mean it that way, but it is something I'm struggling with myself and the detachment is getting easier when I thought about it this way.
Maybe, his friendliness towards your withdrawing behaviors is not a renewed interest and trying to keep you locked in as Plan B. What if he is really, honestly over you? What if he is relieved and happy that you seem to be moving on, which alleviates his guilt and he can start to relax and be kind again and make BLTs for dinner?
I know that isn't what you want to hear. And it may not be true-- probably isn't true, for all I know. But I know for myself when I first started to step away and saw the distancer-pursuer dynamic in action I thought yes! This is working! And maybe, in the long run, it will, but I'm not counting on it. I'm trying to accept the likelihood that in fact, my H is telling me the truth-- he's done. And though that is/was a gutwrenchingly awful thing to actually consider and begin to accept, I think it was the switch inside me that is allowing me to really start to detach and focus on myself and what I need, not acting in certain ways in order to get a certain reaction from him.
My H is/was also my best friend AND thinks we are going to stay friends through all of this. I don't know where they get this fantasy. If he could show me one couple who has the kind of D'd R he has in mind I might believe it was possible...but he is in total la-la land.
You are strong and can make it through this. Focus on you.
May It’s entirely possible and I’ve thought about it but he tends to have good days with me and the family out of guilt.. Honestly his behavior confirms when he’s seen her. He gets very helpful and offers to do things he didn’t even do when we were good. He shows love with acts of service. Always has. Now it’s showing guilt. But even by that standard the morning texts from no where about nothing are entirely out of character for the alien. Also the old husband. Old husband morning texts were sweet and doting. Alien and I have gone I think up to 8 days with out saying a word to each other. Not stone walling. Just two ships passing in the night avoiding the hell out of any conversation that could possibly veer into dreaded R talks. I was faking it until I made it with detaching even before I finished reading DR. I’m still clearly faking it until I make it. I struggle on the calm days most. Ive gotten very good at acting as if I’m detaching. I’m working on internally staying out of the fray entirely, not just emoting detachment. Tonight he wanted my help with that damn bacon dividing the poundage, how to transport it best. asked the best way to cook it for dinner, wanting my reassurance while he prepped everything. I USED to make every meal in the house. Not so much since BD. He Wanted to watch a movie with the kids all of us together. And helped me fold laundry during. Kept trying to engage me in surface conversation. He sent snaps (picture message via snap chat) of him prepping dinner directly to 2 of my friends that I know he knows they know damn near everything. If he isn’t breadcrumbing I’d say it more likely he’s cake eating before he runs his own arbitrary timeline out.
Please trust that I’m focused on getting my life and budget right for his magic April date. But you’re right I could definitely be more focused.
Hi Wayfarer,
That part about the bacon is cracking me up. My H-- same thing. Now does most of the grocery shopping, cooking, volunteers to help when I'm cooking. Snuggles up on the couch with all four of us for a movie (kids in the middle, though, god forbid we actually touch). And this guy has never ONCE volunteered to fold kid laundry-- it is his most dreaded chore because the clothes so GD small and he doesn't know whose is whose or where things go and gets super frustrated. (Also, if you can't tell, my least favorite chore.) He folded a whole basketful the other day. Sends funny/nice texts to my mom. My H also totally stepped up his acts of service in the middle of all this once he learned it was my primary LL and that has continued throughout.
But who knows. Breadcrumbing, cake eating, guilt, "trying"... I feel like it doesn't do any good to try to understand why he is or isn't acting in a certain way. And I totally trust you-- you are smart and strong and thoughtful. You'll be fine no matter what... but the less you can worry about him and what is going on in his confused head vs. focusing on yourself, the better off you'll be. (Partially this is me talking to myself, so take it all with a giant grain of salt!!)
May, trust me I feel that when I comment on other newbies posts too!!!! It's a lot of me talking myself into DBing through the discomfort. I do know I need to stop trying to figure him out. Not helping with detaching and lord knows he doesn't know his head from a hole in the wall so there really isn't anything to figure out. He's more confused than I am, and I need to remind myself that. I really appreciate the baby 2x4 and the encouragement.
It’s been a rough weekend already and it’s only Saturday. Both girls his and mine let me know that they know about his affair and her name. He’s been very not careful around them. There’s a lot of hurt, anger and disappointment. I did my best to validate their feelings and talk them through the enjoying the good days like earlier in the week and trying not to focus on the bad days. There was an incident well two involving him disappearing instead of what he says he do for/with them that set all this in motion. I did not bring it up. Part of this conversation was one daughter saw/heard a text read on his phone sync in his car that indicated OW has booted the boyfriend for my H. H left this afternoon and told me he won’t be coming home tonight. This will be the first time for that. I had feelings that the EA became a PA.
Honestly I’m ok. I didn’t think I would be. I thought I’d feel like crap all over again. But It was just confirmed from what I pretty much already knew. And I didn’t die. I really didn’t. I’m most struggling with the girls. I think maybe family therapy but I didn’t know if I want H there. I fear he’s going to turn it into me turning the girls against him especially his daughter. Or IC for both girls maybe. I don’t know. I’m just worried. They aren’t exactly little. This has to be affecting them even more than they are letting me see. I’m angry at how much they are hurting over this. I’m pissed I have to smooth this over and try to keep them from jumping immediately to “I hate him.” And honestly constantly taking the high road is really exhausting. I just keep telling myself I chose to be the lighthouse. I chose to anchor this family. I’m doing it because I have to. Because I still love that man as much as I hate to admit it. Because I want this family intact. But more than intact. We can’t have a house of 4 teenagers. Somebody needs to be the grown up. But it would be nice if it didn’t have to be me 24/7.
Had IC today and I think I might need to find a new one. She offers a lot with helping me with detachment techniques. She offers a lot when it comes to beating myself up over this when I slip. Or get into the whole I deserve this because of who I was in past relationships, or because I didn’t catch this soon enough, or ignored red flags or should’ve walked away 7 years ago and we wouldn’t be here. But she keeps insisting on boundaries that don’t feel like boundaries. They feel like ultimatums or giving up on this marriage not standing. Like: how long can you live like this? How long can you live like this with him in your house? Isn’t staying in limbo putting you’re whole life in hold?
On top of that I come to these boards to get support and vent because I know the day to day mess is too much for the couple of friends I let in. And I can’t reach out to my IC 24/7. I’m not in crisis. My husband is, and every day with him ranges from agonizing to annoying as hell. But sometimes I feel like what’s the point of standing at all. So few people reconcile. And from what I can see anecdotally it looks like WW seem to come back far more often than a WH. Trust me I’m not doing all this for him to come back into this marriage. I genuinely lost myself in my depression and this relationship. All the DBing is for me to keep going forward in my life. To keep my mind off his mess. To truly detach. But I keep the hope that maybe something is working on drawing him back in. And that’s really what I’m wondering if there’s any point to. Should I really just stand here and wait? Does he deserve me constantly holding it together? Does he deserve my loyalty at all? Is him reengaging and all the work that we’d need to do to piece this back together worth it?
I know those are both contradictory paragraphs. But today I feel all over the place. Honestly confused about what I really want. And what I’m trying to accomplish here. I don’t want to give up on him or our marriage. But I don’t want to waste time not moving on either since he’s running as quickly as he can to start over.
Last night was the first time I dreamt since all this started, and every single dream had H in it. I kept waking myself up because even there I didn't want to be trapped in the same room as him for an extended period of time. I'm guessing because of the IC session. She had my head in a twist over all of this.
This morning was Day 4 of H telling me exactly where he's going, who with, and if he's coming home whether he's with OW or not completely with out prompting. I don't ask. I don't want to engage in that. And I don't really care because the answer is 85% of the time with OW. So there's no need. I don't know if I should be mad at the disrespect of him openly saying "hey catching a movie with OW" as if there's no shame in it, or if I should be happy that he's finally doing what I asked of him like 5 weeks ago and not lying about it or just throwing "I'm GOING OUT" at me like I'm his mother and he's an extra angsty teen in my house. I told him 5 weeks ago (I just need to repeat that) even if I don't like it I can take it and then I don't have to lie to our kids and I don't have to wonder if he's dead. His response 5 weeks ago was "Well there's a slim chance I'm dead so I don't know why you're worried and if they ask say I'm out." They are practically grown. How long was "out" supposed to work for? I eventually just started saying IDK, and leave it. But 5 weeks ago I also said don't embarrass me in public and since he's heading to a movie tonight I'm sure that request H hasn't really thought about yet.
This is also been the 7th day in a row of him texting me out of no where. And Day 5 of me no longer responding to informational texts
I feel like every damn day it's something new with him. And once I've learned how to ignore one behavior he starts a new weird one that makes me feel like a detachment failure. Like can't I just have a week of our own version of the status quo? Just a little time where I know he's leaving the house to be with her Tuesday, Friday and Saturday nights. And Wednesday and Thursday he's home pretending things are semi-normal. And Sunday/Monday I'll take the grabbag. Can't we just stay in that pattern with out him needing to throw in weird stuff for a couple of weeks so I can maintain my bearings?
I feel like every damn day it's something new with him. And once I've learned how to ignore one behavior he starts a new weird one that makes me feel like a detachment failure.
It's like they know when you've mastered some small aspect of internal calm and have to mix it up right away—can't have that!
But sometimes I feel like what’s the point of standing at all. So few people reconcile. And from what I can see anecdotally it looks like WW seem to come back far more often than a WH.
Seems like one day I read about more WH's returning than WW, then the opposite. And I cycle through these thoughts too. I think I would be questioning my decision a LOT more if I knew there was an OW in my sitch. I imagine I would be detaching big time because I would be so angry. It's hard to know, of course, what I would do. As you say, some days your feelings are all over the place. That seems completely normal, though not pleasant. I can imagine a vet stepping in and saying time will reveal your own answers to these questions you're asking. Not sure if I have that right, though!
Sending hugs, wayfarer.
Seems like one day I read about more WH's returning than WW, then the opposite. And I cycle through these thoughts too. I think I would be questioning my decision a LOT more if I knew there was an OW in my sitch. I imagine I would be detaching big time because I would be so angry.
OW or not, you should be detaching big time! I love what Steve85 once said, you want to reach that place where you wouldn’t even be shocked if your H comes home and tells you that they’ve had an orgy with 10 women. For some reason that line stuck with me. Lol!!!!
I think I would be questioning my decision a LOT more if I knew there was an OW in my sitch. I imagine I would be detaching big time because I would be so angry. It's hard to know, of course, what I would do. As you say, some days your feelings are all over the place. That seems completely normal, though not pleasant. I can imagine a vet stepping in and saying time will reveal your own answers to these questions you're asking. Not sure if I have that right, though!
Sending hugs, wayfarer.
As this isn't my first rodeo with a less than stellar partner, I can tell you from experience detachment can't come from a place of anger. If there's anger there, you aren't detached. The last one's mistress was booze and pills. But he was a walking giant red flag, from day one, that in my teen hormone addled, not fully formed frontal lobe brain thought I could save and he could save me. And that was a vastly different story than the one I'm in now.
The truth is OW doesn't bother me. The affair really truly doesn't bother me. Infidelity was never a deal breaker for me. H wasn't privy to that info but that's the truth of the matter. Infidelity happens all the time. People get past it all the time. With and without DBing or other methods. I was a cheater. Granted my ex was a pretty awful person. But the LBS is hardly ever the real reason behind the cheating. It's always trying to fill holes with another person. It's resting hope in a physical form, while in the back of your mind knowing damn well you don't have a chance in hell of this ending with hope.
I've been my H. Hell I've been OW. Not in this marriage. But I've been them. And all I have for them both is empathy. And to continue with my frankness I told both of them that at one point or another. For better or worse. These things die. And they don't die quietly. And they don't die easily. And it's awful to have to mourn something you thought was the world, the light at the end of your tunnel only to realize that light was you setting you're whole world on fire and your tunnel vision let you ignore that you burnt it all to the ground. It's awful to mourn what you thought was your life raft and watching the dinghy and the ship going down in front of you knowing it was you that sunk both. My H is lost. He's been lost. He will continue to be lost. He has so much he's shoved down being the "good vibes only" guy. The holes he's filling are chasms. OW is a sad girl, who is my age, no kids, never married, no degree, and so insecure that she has to chase after a married man. I have nothing but empathy and maybe condescendingly a little pity for them both.
What drives my anger, my sadness, my hurt, my swings, my inability to detach, is the stranger that I'm living with. He engages my fear, my insecurities, my childhood and past relationship issues. He took the one thing in my life I thought was safe. The first home in my whole life I've felt completely secure in and burnt it to ashes, and has the audacity to look me in the face and say "I just don't think we can make each other happy. I just want us both to be happy." When only a few months ago we were half naked on a beach drunk and couldn't get enough of each other. What's killing me is him making me feel like the last 7 years of my life were a complete lie. Like our entire relationship up to BD was all in my head, like a silly little school girl.With that his vilification of me, his rewriting of history, his constant pendulous swing from her to us, living his life as if he isn't married but when I say "hey just let me know if you're coming back tonight don't want to not set the alarm and leave the lights on if you're not" and his response is "I'll be home." Home. HOME. He'll be home. How are you out there living like I don't exist? Like I'm not home with a child that I didn't birth while you do as you please, but still call the place we sleep your home? That right there is why I struggle to detach.
That being said, I've had a few good days. His date night Tuesday. Great night with the kids, and I fell sound asleep before he came home. Yesterday enjoyed his company while he gave it to me. I have plans all weekend. My old goals when I first read DR were to communicate better, to be open and honest with each other, to keep my emotions in check with him. At this point we are so far beyond any of that being a long sustaining option, my little goals are now not analyzing every "good" thing he's doing, keeping him guessing, and letting him be open and honest about where he's going and what he's doing with out reacting. With a bigger goal of going a whole week with out him throwing me into turmoil. I've been struggling with trying to be perfectly detached and an amazing DBer. I realized after reading Stages for the LBS it's a process, and in reality this is all very very new. Only like 2 months. It's a marathon not a sprint. I gotta feel those feelings and move through them not around them. I need to work through my grief over this MR, and who H used to be. I need to accept that's gotta happen before perfection at detachment and none of this comes overnight. But I'm still in this. And messy emotions and confusion are ok. I love him, even this broken selfish version of himself. I still want to fight for my family and my marriage. And battered and broken as I feel some days I'm still standing, perfectly imperfect.
That post was profound, Wayfarer.
Let me echo sandi, wayfarer—I found this post so insightful. (And thought—if only our H's could reach this kind of insight!
)
What's killing me is him making me feel like the last 7 years of my life were a complete lie. Like our entire relationship up to BD was all in my head, like a silly little school girl.
This is what I come back to as well. The questioning and doubting of what I thought I knew.
I need to work through my grief over this MR, and who H used to be. I need to accept that's gotta happen before perfection at detachment and none of this comes overnight. But I'm still in this. And messy emotions and confusion are ok. I love him, even this broken selfish version of himself. I still want to fight for my family and my marriage. And battered and broken as I feel some days I'm still standing, perfectly imperfect.
Yes, yes, you are. Thank you for sharing these words, wayfarer.
Just journaling: I don’t miss him when he’s not here. I don’t panic when he’s gone any more. It’s like snow in January. It just is. What’s rough now is missing him when he’s here. I hate seeing him within an arms length of me and knowing he won’t reach out to touch me, and I couldn’t possibly reach out to him. Not when he makes us dinner. Not when he helps around the house, because I know it’s just part of the at home show. I do wonder how long I’ll be able to not be bothered by the comings and goings. I’ll find out I guess. If nothing else all of this is going to drill patience into me.
Oh I feel you. I miss my H when he’s here. Even though I know it’s the shell of him. The inside is different somehow. I refrain myself from touching him, holding him, giving him lovey googly eyes.
It’s like looking at my children’s baby pictures. I wish I could go back there but I can’t.
I have said this before, but I think it bears repeating. I am astounded at what some of the LBWs in this forum are willing to put up with and still hold on to dear life to their WAHs! If I pulled some of the things these WAHs have I would be out of my butt so fast it would make my head spin.
Which is probably a big reason I don't. Something to think about.
I have said this before, but I think it bears repeating. I am astounded at what some of the LBWs in this forum are willing to put up with and still hold on to dear life to their WAHs! If I pulled some of the things these WAHs have I would be out of my butt so fast it would make my head spin.
Which is probably a big reason I don't. Something to think about.
The fact is I had a traumatic childhood, so my threshold for crappy behavior is incredibly high. Then you know I had an addict in my life for years and years, so my ability to forgive those who don't deserve it or haven't asked for it tends to also be a higher threshold than most.
If his daughter didn't live with us full time he would be out. Either by my choice or his. But he can't afford to set up a 2nd household yet, and I won't make her couch surf. He's using that to his advantage. He knows no matter what happens I'll put the kids first. Even if it means him coming and going as he pleases. I can't legally remove him. I won't help him with moving costs. And his so deep in his own $hit that any boundaries I set he'll walk right through.
I'm not chasing after his crumbs any more and while everyday I'm just about ready to give up on him, I'm not ready to give up on this marriage. We've only been in this place a few months. And that in the grand scheme of a lifetime is a blip. If this is just a blip or who he is now only time will tell. So I have to be patient, and put up with more than most people probably would so I can figure it out.
wayfarer, saw this quote recently. Think it might be appropriate here. Don't know who to attribute it to:
"The road to failure is paved with excuses."
Warfarer, just wanted to agree that you have an incredible level of self awareness.
Sending you good thoughts.
wayfarer, saw this quote recently. Think it might be appropriate here. Don't know who to attribute it to:
"The road to failure is paved with excuses."
That may be true. But one person's excuse is another's reason. I know I look like a doormat to some. And a failure to others. But I am not some 1950s house wife ignoring my H's affair so I can stay comfortable, and because that's how "men behave." I am angry. I am devastated. I hate everything he's done and is doing. And if tonight he cried and said it's all a mistake I wouldn't sob and welcome him back open arms. But I also can't live like every single thing he does is the end of the world and a slap in the face to me. He sure as hell isn't thinking about me when he's making those choices, I'm not entirely sure why I should think about him not thinking about me when he does them. I can't live in a place where his behavior controls me, my emotions and my actions. And I can't detach if I dwell on the details of all his misgivings. They are all one ugly mess that I have to choose to walk though or step over.
Also I'm not a quitter. And just because his vows didn't mean a damn thing doesn't mean mine didn't. This part. This is the worse part. There are no qualifiers on that. There is no "if you're the worse part of our marriage I get to give up no questions asked."Trust me, I will never look at him the same again. And our lives will never go back to the way it was but bad behavior or not, I made a commitment. He's still coming home. He's still calling it home. He's still has me as his wife on all his social media. He still has a wedding picture of us on his Instagram as his profile. He still worries if I've eaten. He worries if I've gotten to where I need to go when the snow is bad. Regardless of all the words coming out of his mouth and the ridiculous life he's trying to live right now, he still has 1 foot in this marriage. And while we're miles from any movement one way or the other, I'll wait here in limbo, and deal with my $hit, finding me, working on me, GALing, keeping our girls feeling secure as long as I'm able while he does what ever it is this week that he thinks he needs to do to live his life. No I can't stay here forever. And he doesn't get an endless hall pass. But this is our lives right now. And while some people aren't built for misery, I am. And because I've been there too many times before I know on the other side of this is a better stronger me, with or without him. I'm just still hoping that the other side of this is a better both of us, and a better marriage. And if that makes me a failure, so be it.
I am not telling you to give up. But I am telling you to COMMAND respect. Notice, that doesn't meant to demand respect. It means to act in ways that people will have to respect you. It like the LBH that gives up the MBR. COMMANDING respect is to take back the MBR.
In your sitch your COMMANDING respect might be to file for D, have him served, and then let him see what it is going to cost him, both in life and in dollars, to lose you.
I find most LBWs are terrified of D. I don't get that. You will never look better than when you are walking away from him.
Wayfarer, I don’t want to hijack your thread! But I find Steve’s advice interesting. In my case it won’t cost my H financially that much to D—he’ll be mostly fine, while I’ll be worrying about bills and rent. I do think it might be helpful for him to face the reality of what it would mean to live apart with me out of his life, to see that maybe D won’t automatically make him happier, isn’t the single answer to his problems. But I also don’t think it’s the answer for me, and I want him to own that decision if he makes it, I want him to do the work. I don’t want to hand it to him. I wonder how you’re thinking about this, wayfarer. I want to command respect, Steve. I hope I’m on the right path with my casual, detached attitude toward H, in not interacting unless he initiates conversation first, in the way I carry myself, do things for myself. But I do wonder if I could be doing more. I would take back the mbr, if that was an issue in my case!
Wayfarer, I don’t want to hijack your thread! But I find Steve’s advice interesting. In my case it won’t cost my H financially that much to D—he’ll be mostly fine, while I’ll be worrying about bills and rent. I do think it might be helpful for him to face the reality of what it would mean to live apart with me out of his life, to see that maybe D won’t automatically make him happier, isn’t the single answer to his problems. But I also don’t think it’s the answer for me, and I want him to own that decision if he makes it, I want him to do the work. I don’t want to hand it to him. I wonder how you’re thinking about this, wayfarer. I want to command respect, Steve. I hope I’m on the right path with my casual, detached attitude toward H, in not interacting unless he initiates conversation first, in the way I carry myself, do things for myself. But I do wonder if I could be doing more. I would take back the mbr, if that was an issue in my case!
I need make sure people understand that I am morally opposed to D. The only way I would suggest what I did to wayfarer was in the case where the WAS has cheated physically. If my W had physically cheated, I would have filed. Short of that my morals wouldn't let me.
I need make sure people understand that I am morally opposed to D. The only way I would suggest what I did to wayfarer was in the case where the WAS has cheated physically. If my W had physically cheated, I would have filed. Short of that my morals wouldn't let me.
The thing is I'm neither morally opposed to divorce or find a PA so morally repugnant that it's my line in the sand. If every single woman on here had that same standard of PA=D there would be almost no WH reconciliations on this site. I'm not hanging on because I have low self esteem or I'm so desperate that he can just walk all over me. In my mind, PA=D is in the same vein of a knee jerk reaction of begging or crying when WAS says they never loved you.
The question here for me is, ok let's say I play it your way. I make the power move. I file while he's still living in the house. Then what? Then we have to have a temp order put in place over the dwelling so that means a temp order hearing, which would likely be a contested hearing. So if I'm doing this pro se to save money, I'm losing PTO at work. If I hire a lawyer to fight this out for me I go thousands in debt to make sure he knows he should respect me? And if he gets booted out of the house then where will my step-daughter go if he doesn't secure a place? I'd gladly keep her with me, but he won't have that. So OW's house? Is that where they should go? If his daughter wasn't with us full time, this entire situation wouldn't be playing out the way it is. But as it stands right here in the moment I'm the only stable adult in her life. So where does that put me? I go your route and hope he all of a sudden gets smacked with reality and changes course? Or he kicks this moving out plan into high gear and leaves me high and dry scraping by before I'm financially ready and possibly paying legal fees at the same time. Or do I divulge what's going on to his family in detail so they can make sure his daughter has a bed to sleep in and adults with their head on straight to care for her?
Perhaps my blinders are on. Maybe you're right. Maybe the only way to command some respect is to make the first move here. But I genuinely don't see how that power move plays out in my favor in the long run with or without him.
Hi Wayfarer,
I posted this on Pommy's thread and maybe it will help you too:
Have you read MWD's Healing From Infidelity? There is a chapter on when your spouse won't end the affair and I'm going to quote a little from it (hope that is OK):
"I know it is a lot to ask of you to avoid putting pressure on your spouse to end the affair if your spouse has chosen unfaithfulness. You may feel like you're a doormat or that your spouse is "having his cake and eating it too." After all, your spouse has all the comforts of home -- you, the kids, (if you have them), your home and a secure lifestyle-- and an affair. How unfair this feels, and is. I get it.
"But you are not a doormat. You are not a pushover. You are simply fighting for your marriage and you're trying to do it in the smartest way possible. You are giving your spouse the time and space they need to sort their emotions out and do the right thing. You are very courageous. You're a warrior. Don't let anyone tell you differently."
So. You are NOT a doormat. You are NOT a pushover. You are a warrior. In MWD's own words, no less!
I think you are amazing and strong. You need to match up what *you* want to do with *your* values and what *you* can and can't accept in your H, both now and in the future. What *you* are willing to do for your kids. That is different for all of us and I think all posters need to remember that we are different people, with different life histories, different value systems, and different breaking points. For Steve it is physical infidelity. It doesn't sound like it is for you, and you don't need to be ashamed of that or feel like you're a failure. It seems like you've been really thoughtful about all of this and clear on what is going on.
I do think it is important for us to challenge ourselves and each other- I get a lot of value from that and all the posters are helping me to better think of my situation from multiple perspectives, and I'm sure that is the same for you. Steve's been really helpful to me in thinking this through early on and I respect him a lot. And there are things I continue to noodle on and am thinking about a lot, especially about respect and what you're teaching your spouse is and isn't OK. I always thought through my entire sitch that physical infidelity would be a dealbreaker and I'd walk. When I actually got there, it wasn't so simple.
I'm just glad I'm still learning and growing, and I know my perspective may change as I move forward, make some choices one way or the other, learn new things, and continue to build my own life outside of H. I feel like it is the same for you.
Finally, from what I understand, this:
But I also can't live like every single thing he does is the end of the world and a slap in the face to me. He sure as hell isn't thinking about me when he's making those choices, I'm not entirely sure why I should think about him not thinking about me when he does them. I can't live in a place where his behavior controls me, my emotions and my actions. And I can't detach if I dwell on the details of all his misgivings. They are all one ugly mess that I have to choose to walk though or step over...
And while we're miles from any movement one way or the other, I'll wait here in limbo, and deal with my $hit, finding me, working on me, GALing, keeping our girls feeling secure as long as I'm able while he does what ever it is this week that he thinks he needs to do to live his life. No I can't stay here forever. And he doesn't get an endless hall pass. But this is our lives right now. And while some people aren't built for misery, I am. And because I've been there too many times before I know on the other side of this is a better stronger me, with or without him. I'm just still hoping that the other side of this is a better both of us, and a better marriage.
This? Is DBing. Detaching. Focusing on you. Giving him the time and space he needs without pressure. I love what you said about not being sure why you need to think about him not thinking about you... his behaviors don't control you, your emotions, or your actions. You make your own decisions. And the decision to D is a big one that deserves time and good consideration before going down that path. You need to be ready and know it is the right thing in your heart. It isn't a feint to get him to miss you or your life together or whatever. It is a big deal and if you're not ready to do it with your full heart, you shouldn't.
Would this all be easier/faster/whatever if you kicked him to the curb? Maybe. From reading the other stories on this board? Probably, either to R or to faster healing for you, with or without him. But... if that isn't in line with your own values, then you shouldn't do it.
As you probably know I'm much in the same boat as you. The kids are paramount and if it weren't for them I'd be long gone. Where I am right now is that I don't want to be the one to take the step to end it (yet)-- I know that I will regret that down the line and it simply isn't who I want to be.
I'm here for you, wayfarer, if you need it.
Wayfarer, I don’t want to hijack your thread! But I find Steve’s advice interesting. In my case it won’t cost my H financially that much to D—he’ll be mostly fine, while I’ll be worrying about bills and rent. I do think it might be helpful for him to face the reality of what it would mean to live apart with me out of his life, to see that maybe D won’t automatically make him happier, isn’t the single answer to his problems. But I also don’t think it’s the answer for me, and I want him to own that decision if he makes it, I want him to do the work. I don’t want to hand it to him. I wonder how you’re thinking about this, wayfarer. I want to command respect, Steve. I hope I’m on the right path with my casual, detached attitude toward H, in not interacting unless he initiates conversation first, in the way I carry myself, do things for myself. But I do wonder if I could be doing more. I would take back the mbr, if that was an issue in my case!
That's the other part of this. He thinks all of his issues will be resolved by washing his hands of me and this marriage and I will not hand that to him. I just won't. I plan to file for legal separation as soon as he signs a lease so my step-daughter can stay on my insurance, but also then its in his hands if he wants a divorce. He has to wait 12 months from the finalization and then if he wants a divorce he can get it unilaterally but he has to do all the leg work.
Sorry, just read your last post... I also think there are more important things than whether your WS respects you or not-- like do you respect yourself, and are you doing the right thing by the kids.
You have his D's interests first and foremost. I think that can never be the wrong path.
Hi Wayfarer,
I posted this on Pommy's thread and maybe it will help you too:
Have you read MWD's Healing From Infidelity? There is a chapter on when your spouse won't end the affair and I'm going to quote a little from it (hope that is OK):
"I know it is a lot to ask of you to avoid putting pressure on your spouse to end the affair if your spouse has chosen unfaithfulness. You may feel like you're a doormat or that your spouse is "having his cake and eating it too." After all, your spouse has all the comforts of home -- you, the kids, (if you have them), your home and a secure lifestyle-- and an affair. How unfair this feels, and is. I get it.
"But you are not a doormat. You are not a pushover. You are simply fighting for your marriage and you're trying to do it in the smartest way possible. You are giving your spouse the time and space they need to sort their emotions out and do the right thing. You are very courageous. You're a warrior. Don't let anyone tell you differently."
So. You are NOT a doormat. You are NOT a pushover. You are a warrior. In MWD's own words, no less!
I'm here for you, wayfarer, if you need it.
Thank you may. I really did need to hear this.
may and wayfarer, what you both have posted has been really helpful to me, so thank you. wayfarer, you sound like you totally know your values and yourself and are acting accordingly, and that is inspiring! It's easy for me sometimes to get caught up in different approaches and questioning what I'm doing, but this conversation clarified for me again that if I am true to myself, I can be proud of whatever it is I decide to do or not do on many levels. You both put into words what I've been struggling to put into words for myself:
But I also can't live like every single thing he does is the end of the world and a slap in the face to me. He sure as hell isn't thinking about me when he's making those choices, I'm not entirely sure why I should think about him not thinking about me when he does them. I can't live in a place where his behavior controls me, my emotions and my actions.
Yes, and there is
strength in these words. As may said, not pushover, not doormat!
I also think there are more important things than whether your WS respects you or not-- like do you respect yourself [...]
This is what I really needed to hear, too. A simple way to keep the focus on me—why waste time wondering what the WS thinks? Do I respect myself? Am I living according to my values and beliefs? That's all I need to know, right?
You both strike me as such strong, smart, compassionate women. Hugs, may and wayfarer!
Hi Wayfarer,
I just read your thread. I believe your head is in the right place. You are wise and I hope you keep posting to the newbies. I fix me my helping others.
HUGS
So here's what is happening in my life. As I asked the universe/god/gaia/whatever, for a least a little bit of a new normal, I got it. Much like me asking for him to stop lying about where he's going and what's he's doing. Is it what I want for me, for us, for the girls? NOPE. But at least it's a consistency that helps me keep on course. And it's a predictability for the girls to be able to roll with. 3 weeks now Tuesday, Friday, Saturday are his OW days. Granted he was home a lot last weekend, but I'll count that as a fluke. Monday, Wednesday, Thursday are at home days. Sunday is a grab bag. Monday he messaged me asking about what nights he should take over dinner. And let me in on his week day schedule. An issue with our auto insurance came up yesterday. My daughter text messaged me that he was yelling at customer service at home. I said I'm sure I'll hear about it eventually, assuming it's Tuesday I figured he'd he'd go to the sophomore into junior year prep event at his daughter's school and see OW and talk to me later. He called me immediately after that text exchange to vent and share what was going on, and asked my help with resolving the situation. He went to parent thing at his daughter's school, she is missing a ton of work in one class for no reason. (this is not situation related, this has been her MO since we started dating, solid B kid but just picks a class she feels like failing until the 11th hour almost every year) He called her to yell/discuss/parent. Immediately after hanging up with her he texted me telling me he'll fill me in tomorrow. Then presumable went out with OW. Came home some time after I went to bed. Woke me up at 5:30am to ask if he could take some left overs for lunch.
He contacts me via text or in person every single day for something mundane. He's also figured out if he doesn't ask a question I won't talk so now most texts end in a question. I keep things short and pithy. He sticks to mundane surface things to draw me into conversation. I stick to business if I start the conversation. I end the conversation first as much as possible. KristinG might be right. He might just not be comfortable not talking to me. Which I'm fine with. I've gotten very comfortable not talking to him. It's not always easy I see things: memes, shows, or hear a song I know he'd like but I just put it in my pocket. If there's a later I'll share then. If there's not, oh well.
I know it probably seems super odd for some to see how quickly I've gone from desperate to, crumb catching, to detached. But as I've said this isn't my first rodeo with a less than stellar partner. And honestly it wasn't just that. I had one friend, my therapist, and Steve85 question my sanity and intelligence of standing in this all within a week. But that's exactly what I needed to get where I am. I needed the push back. I needed the "why are you doing this?" I needed the "but how can you possibly?" I needed the "well you are far stronger/more of a push over than I'd ever be." Thrown in my face repeatedly. That psychic I saw said within 2 weeks my truth in this situation would be revealed to me. I would find my direction. She was right. I know my path. And it's holding out hope for this marriage in the end. He clearly still has no idea what he wants or needs. And he may very well move out in April and I'm ready for that. I'm ready to file for legal separation if he does. I've already worked on a list of things I'll be doing around the house and trips if he goes. I'm still checking off boxes on my GAL list. I'm also working on a list of things I'll need from him if we R.
My life isn't ideal. Our marriage as it was is dead. And I'm at a place where I'm ok with that. And I'm ok with status quo for a while. He's still 1 foot in, and that's enough for me to allow him time and space, and to remind myself to protect my heart and my head. It's enough for me to take my own time and space, and find me.
WF,
You seem at peace with yourself. Good job! I agree that sometimes it's just hard not to have that strong pull and desire to talk. We've spent so many years dreaming and living a life with someone and it's hard to let go. I'm proud of the fact that you are "putting it in your pocket". Sometimes I am still weak and respond too quickly or reach out because of that inner need. It gets easier with time, and viewing that time as a gift for you to find your inner self is helpful.
KG
Just journaling again I suppose. His behavior is getting more odd. To the point I'm almost missing the sullen, angry, withdrawn teenager I had been dealing with.
He made a big social media post about spending time with the girls on Wednesday when I was at an event. And yesterday about how it was his turn to make dinner. I know this because a friend texted me with the screen shots asking if he's going for an academy award.
He waited up for me Wednesday, I was at a professional event, and then out for late dinner with some alum from the women's college I went to as a big group were at the event. He was folding laundry when I came home and told me I looked nice for the first time in months. He made some comments about my weight loss (still on the fence on how I feel about that. I can't really gauge if that was him telling me I was too fat for him or if it's interest in my new body. FYI I gained a lot during my depression, but our sex life didn't change so I didn't think my weight was that offensive to him. The body change in the other direction started when I lost a lot from stress in the beginning of all this because I couldn't eat and when I did it wouldn't stay in, but have been consistently losing since due to the working out and diet changes because well revenge body) I tried to walk away from the conversation he started about my night when he yelled out "hey" to get me to turn around and made the comments he did. He later came into the main bathroom while I was getting ready for bed to "put some things away." Things that had been sitting on his dresser for 2 months. And then in the MBR to get clothes for the gym as I was climbing in bed. He has gym clothes in the living room. He also had the whole night to get those clothes. I didn't get home until almost 11pm.
I came home yesterday, I had things to do and got home well after dinner was made. He had gotten a hard to get ethnic (our ethnicity) drink for me, just for me, not the girls. Granted I'm the only one who likes it but you have to go out of your way to get it. Its not at the local neighborhood supermarket. He did leave to go see OW last night. At least I think he did. He didn't say who he was going out to see last night. I just assume. I just want to preface this with that, but he was all conversation from the time I walked in the door. To the point where he was following me around the house before he left to keeping talking to me. I legit started cleaning the kitchen at 8:30 last night so he'd take the hint. He did not. He also felt it was super important to let me know he'd be "home" and wouldn't be that late and he would be for sure going to work to put in over time today. I'm not sure why I'd care about the OT. I didn't really before BD. I don't really now. We only have a shared savings and I cleared out my 1/2 back in December, everything else has always been separate.
I'm not trying figure out what it all means. I know it all means nothing as long as OW is in the picture. He's just as much of mess as he was when he was the sullen teenager he's just in a new skin. I'm trying to ride the newest wave out as he continues to change the game. It's like playing Shoots and Ladders with a 3 year old.
What I do need here is some advice or clarity on the comments on my body and how I look. I do want him to notice my changing body, BUT I don't know how comfortable I am with him making comments about it. He's repeatedly told me how he has no interest in me and never will. I don't know that he should be taking the space to comment about a body he has no interest in. And like I said I don't know if this is coming from a place of "god you were fat" or "oh I forgot she looks like that." Either way he's the one who set the precedence in the relationship of a big distance. Treating us as if we're basically roommates. So him talking to me like that is akin to commenting about a stranger or a co-worker's weight loss. Telling a stranger how well a dress hangs on them is harassment. I feel like I need to set a boundary here. If old H wanted to say things about my body by all means. That's a part of M. What's mine is yours. But the alien saying things like that, while it did give me a bit of a smirk knowing he noticed, it still made me feel a little uncomfortable. Discussions about my body and compliments about how a form fitting dress, albeit a conservative one, looks on me feel like they should be for my H to make. And engaged, loving one. One that participates in my journey, and has some claim to my body. NOT someone who has the title but hasn't touched me in months. Hasn't complimented me in months. Is dating someone while still under the same roof as me. I feel like I really should've shut that guy down a little more forcefully instead of saying thanks and walking away. But I wouldn't have even know what to say.
What I do need here is some advice or clarity on the comments on my body and how I look. I do want him to notice my changing body, BUT I don't know how comfortable I am with him making comments about it.
My gut response from a seductive perspective is to look him in the eye, say "your not the only one to notice" smile and turn away and keep working.
Another option, from a self esteem issues, just quietly accept it. Do not assign meaning to it.
My lady has fluctuated her weight from underweight to over weight. I have enjoyed her through all the different sizes.
I think the key is your attitude. Projecting confidence. I am a firm believer in being seductive. Have fun with it.
See counter intuitive ways to attract:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094
My gut response from a seductive perspective is to look him in the eye, say "your not the only one to notice" smile and turn away and keep working.
Another option, from a self esteem issues, just quietly accept it. Do not assign meaning to it.
My lady has fluctuated her weight from underweight to over weight. I have enjoyed her through all the different sizes.
I think the key is your attitude. Projecting confidence. I am a firm believer in being seductive. Have fun with it.
See counter intuitive ways to attract:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094The person I normally am would've throw the "you're not the only one" kind of line out there. He just caught me so off guard I couldn't be my normal quick witted self. He hasn't complimented me in nearly 4 months. To be honest I was a little confused and thought I heard him wrong.
Which probably goes to your #2 point. I am currently faking it until I make it with self esteem right now. In my R with my D's father he spent a ton of time being very cruel about the body I had and the weight struggles I had after I had our daughter. He was privy to my amazing 18 year old body, and refused to accept the new motherly one. Even in that glorious 18 year old body he'd say things like "if you'd just lose a little weight." Spending nearly 10 years like that will wreck a lot of people's self worth. So when my current H and I started dating and he treated me like a golden goddess, 30 something mom body and all, I felt like a totally different woman. Since he took that attention and affection away it's been super hard for me to see my self like that golden godess without being able to see myself through his eyes. <- That has forced me into a 180 loving myself and not gaining my self worth from any one else. But that one is a big one that's taking me some time to be truly successful at. However, you're right R2C. Assigning a meaning to it is more about what's in my head then his.
I'll check that link out, thank you.
I think any calculated response to his comments about your weight will show attachment.
That’s probably why he said it. He knows it’s a powerful bread crumb.
Personally, I think you should just turn around and walk straight out the room when he says it.
Give zero indications that you’ll accept any hooks, no matter how powerful. A spiteful comment that others have noticed - you might think this is a good idea, but it’s still taking his bait.
I think any calculated response to his comments about your weight will show attachment.
That’s probably why he said it. He knows it’s a powerful bread crumb.
That makes a ton of sense. It's bait. He knows know how insecure I am about my body. He would've known it took a lot for me to get in that dress and own it. And he knows damn well how much of my body positivity used to rest on his opinion.
In fact he brought it up yesterday also. His SIL was at the event too. He felt like he had to share with me that she had contacted him and mentioned to him how good I look.
Hey Wayfarer. You're a golden goddess. Own it.
Also, your body f***ing MADE A HUMAN BEING. Those changes are reminders that your body is a miracle machine. You should love it and he should worship it.
Honestly? I feel like it doesn't matter if you say thanks, you don't, you shut him down, you smile and accept the compliment. You aren't doing this for him. You're a golden goddess for you. And as long as that attitude is shining through (which I think it is, with you) then I wouldn't worry about how to respond. Whatever feels right in the moment.
Maybe I'm a crap DB-er... Well, I mean I *know* I'm a crap DB-er
but I have kind of stopped doing or saying anything with an eye towards his response. Early on, I did a lot of the DR recommended setting goals, monitoring response, carefully making sure I wasn't going down cheeseless tunnels, etc... and I think that while there was a lot of benefit to that in terms of our interactions with each other, it still put all the emphasis on him. Now that we're in this weird limbo place where I know about his A and he just needs to gather up his courage to walk (or not), I feel so much freer to just say what I'm thinking, be honest and open, be OK with letting myself be vulnerable in R talks. Because, what is the worst that can happen? It already basically has. If it drives him away more quickly, yay! Then I get to start the work of moving on.
I also just don't think that these WSs are so calculated in their every move. Some probably are narcissistic sociopaths and are carefully parsing out breadcrumbs calculated to keep you in the perfect spot. Others? Are confused messes right now and honestly don't know what they want. He could be breadcrumbing you to keep you as a firm plan B and make sure you're still in the game since he's sensing your distance. Or, he could be feeling a little pull and freak of yikes! I'm not ready for this and dang she is looking pretty hot these days, and that is why he said it. Or he genuinely knows what a difficult subject it is for you, and the compliment was intended to make you feel good. But all of that means you're parsing out WHAT he means and WHY he said it and HOW your response will or will not affect him. You are the best ever at not really caring about his BS... don't let this one area where you have some hang-ups get you down.
And work it, girl. For real.
First of all, if anyone compliments on your good looks, good for you!!! That means you are taking care of yourself and it shows!
I agree with may- I don’t think WASs are always calculating like that. Personally. I think phrases like “leaving breadcrumbs” and “cake eating” give too much emphasis on what you presume the WAS is thinking.
As women, we all have different attitudes on how to respond to a man’s comment on our looks. It could be taken as harassment or a compliment. The response might also change depending on whether it’s from a friend, family member, coworker, or a stranger.
Granted, WAH/WH is a special label that might be confusing to you as to how to respond, but maybe try to think about what else do you see him as? A friend? Family? Stranger? Alien?
My H has commented on my looks positively after BD also. I said “thanks!” and that was the end of that conversation.
Hey Wayfarer. You're a golden goddess. Own it.
Honestly? I feel like it doesn't matter if you say thanks, you don't, you shut him down, you smile and accept the compliment. You aren't doing this for him. You're a golden goddess for you. And as long as that attitude is shining through (which I think it is, with you) then I wouldn't worry about how to respond.
Whatever feels right in the moment.I also just don't think that these WSs are so calculated in their every move. Some probably are narcissistic sociopaths and are carefully parsing out breadcrumbs calculated to keep you in the perfect spot. Others? Are confused messes right now and honestly don't know what they want. He could be breadcrumbing you to keep you as a firm plan B and make sure you're still in the game since he's sensing your distance. Or, he could be feeling a little pull and freak of yikes! I'm not ready for this and dang she is looking pretty hot these days, and that is why he said it. Or he genuinely knows what a difficult subject it is for you, and the compliment was intended to make you feel good. But all of that means you're parsing out WHAT he means and WHY he said it and HOW your response will or will not affect him. You are the best ever at not really caring about his BS... don't let this one area where you have some hang-ups get you down.
And work it, girl. For real.
May, you have no idea how much I needed to hear that it probably didn't matter a bit what I said in that one moment. My IRL friends got me with the confidence boosts about this new body, but a couple of them, well, they see everything he says or does as some kind of power move. And when I don't try to snatch that power back with my words or actions in the immediate they can make comments to the effect that he's like a border line sociopath and I'm a doormat. Even if I had wanted to in that very second take any little bit of power he had over me back and throw it at him, I was so caught off guard I had no chance of being that measured in my response. I've said it before. I can emote detachment like none other, hence a quiet thanks, shrug, and I walked away. But when he throws new leaning in behavior at me I get knocked off kilter.
As to not all WS's being calculating, or so calculating that every single thing out of their mouths, every action is planned is one of the most true things I've ever heard. My H isn't an idiot but we're in this mess because he has ZERO idea how to handle complex emotions, particularly difficult, layered, negative and/or confusing ones. There is no way in hell every thing he's saying or doing is thought out that far. But I know he does and says some things to to illicit a response so I try to be vigilant in how I respond.
First of all, if anyone compliments on your good looks, good for you!!! That means you are taking care of yourself and it shows!
I agree with may- I don’t think WASs are always calculating like that. Personally. I think phrases like “leaving breadcrumbs” and “cake eating” give too much emphasis on what you presume the WAS is thinking.
Granted, WAH/WH is a special label that might be confusing to you as to how to respond, but maybe try to think about what else do you see him as? A friend? Family? Stranger? Alien?
I'd have to agree breadcrumbing is one that I struggle with believing that WS are all taking the time to lay that out all the time. Especially when most of them are working with the assumption that we're going to be BFFs if they leave us, why would they need to string us a long when in the fantasy the door is always open, because, you know, we're best friends who hang out and talk all the time. *sigh*
As far as what do I see my H as right now. My immediate reaction when posed that question is probably a$$hat. But that's not super productive. Well not friend. I might be in his head. But he's not mine. So that's out. He's increasingly less and less alien every week, and I can't say stranger really either. Even in full swing alien mode he voluntarily went to see if my mother's headstone was finally put in. I'd say I still see him as family. Family you love without necessarily liking all the time. Family you let into your inner-self with varying degrees based on the climate of your relationship at that time. Family because we are still running a household together. Outside of family I couldn't possibly name what else I see him as. We have zero emotional or physical intimacy and he's dating some one who isn't his wife, but save for that, everything else about our lives under one roof together is almost better than it has ever been. We talk more openly about finances than ever. Our workload balance at home is more balanced than ever. He does things the second I ask him to instead of ignoring me or doing it on his own schedule like he's one of the kids. In the last couple of weeks he started to spend time with the girls like he was before this mess. He took care of dinner 4 times last week. He hasn't done that since I was away taking care of my mom. He's being incredibly supportive of me running again, neutral topic for both of us I guess, but normally he behaves as if I quit everything I start, (which isn't my actual MO). I have no idea how to label that. What title fits the person who used to be my best friend and lover, who is now my good looking roommate who bangs some chick I don't know, but is becoming a better husband in all the other aspects of our relationship that I wish he had done prior?
I think being unable to find an appropriate column to put him in is what made me a little uncomfortable with his comments.
What title fits the person who used to be my best friend and lover, who is now my good looking roommate who bangs some chick I don't know, but is becoming a better husband in all the other aspects of our relationship that I wish he had done prior?
I think being unable to find an appropriate column to put him in is what made me a little uncomfortable with his comments.
Ugh, Wayfarer, this is my sitch too. H and I have the perfect roommate relationship, better than it’s been for years...and complete with compliments about my underwear, etc. This sitch is so frustrating to deal with. sometimes I can’t work out why this is sooo hard.
I'd say I still see him as family. Family you love without necessarily liking all the time. Family you let into your inner-self with varying degrees based on the climate of your relationship at that time. Family because we are still running a household together. Outside of family I couldn't possibly name what else I see him as. We have zero emotional or physical intimacy and he's dating some one who isn't his wife, but save for that, everything else about our lives under one roof together is almost better than it has ever been. We talk more openly about finances than ever. Our workload balance at home is more balanced than ever. He does things the second I ask him to instead of ignoring me or doing it on his own schedule like he's one of the kids. In the last couple of weeks he started to spend time with the girls like he was before this mess. He took care of dinner 4 times last week. He hasn't done that since I was away taking care of my mom. He's being incredibly supportive of me running again, neutral topic for both of us I guess, but normally he behaves as if I quit everything I start, (which isn't my actual MO). I have no idea how to label that. What title fits the person who used to be my best friend and lover, who is now my good looking roommate who bangs some chick I don't know, but is becoming a better husband in all the other aspects of our relationship that I wish he had done prior?
Wayfarer, this totally resonated with me... I feel like I'm in the exact same boat. Pretty frustrating in a lot of ways to see your H becoming a better H in all these ways yet being the very opposite in the most central and crucial of ways.
And because I can't do boundaries with him at the moment, we are actually also closer and more intimate both emotionally and physically than we have been in years. Cake-eating, breadcrumbing, whatever... but I'm not doing it for him or for the possibility he'll come back, but for me. I am going to miss the friendship a lot too when this period of limbo is over.
I'm thinking I would be better at boundaries if I couldn't put my H's relationship with AP in a box because she lives so far away. I want to be more like you and Caligirl (who is also the queen of detachment) and figure out how to do this now, because his head is still in the same place (with OW) even if isn't physically with her right now. Are you finding it harder to be detached (besides for specific comments like about your body/looks) when his behavior is so positive in these other ways?
w. Are you finding it harder to be detached (besides for specific comments like about your body/looks) when his behavior is so positive in these other ways?
Good behavior is what I struggle to detach from. End stop. I was with a pill popping, metally ill, alcoholic for years, and had a step father with the dark triad. Bad behavior. A$$holes. Garbage humans. Pure evil. I can look that in the face and smile. What is happening in my life right now as long has he's consistent I can ride the wave. But burst of new behavior or things that were deeply who he used to be then my walls come tumbling down. I won't let him see that. I'd rather vomit or die then let him see me vulnerable or affected in any way. But inside I'm in turmoil.
The girls brought up to me this weekend how different he's been behaving lately. Nov-Jan he spent almost no time with either girl especially not 1 on 1 except when he BD'd them with my permission. Last night all 4 of us had nachos and watched the game. He laid on my step daughter. Was on his phone working on his running play lists as the marathon is only 2 months out so his runs are getting longer and longer. Humming to himself as he finds or remembers songs he likes. The phone was in full view of us all of us because of how he was laying. Not one text exchange between him and OW. Now I'm sure after we all wandered off to the other side of the house for bed they were talking, but 2 months ago he would've been in the MBR avoiding all 3 of us talking to her non-stop. Wouldn't have eaten with us or maybe at all. Watching him be in our lives exactly the way he used to be, puts me in a place where I just want to beg him to quit his sh1t already and let's start moving on. But I sit quietly in his chair in the corner and smile at my phone texting my bff. But trust I'm climbing out of my skin.
OK, so I feel a little less bad about having such a hard time detaching when my H is (and has been for some time) where yours is.
I guess I would just caution you that mine has been basically in that same space-- kind, thoughtful, ultra supportive, spending time with the fam all together, cooking and cleaning and shopping and handing me his phone to do the crossword puzzle together etc... for MONTHS now, and getting better and better every week. It hasn't meant his A is over or he's ready to work on the MR yet, or if he'll ever be there. They say a marathon not a sprint and I would venture to guess that this is the hill, when it is the hardest not to beg him to knock this all off. You know you're amazing at this though so keep it up.
I have infinite patience. What I am running low on is enough physical activity to counteract the complete lack of touch. My friends and I joke a lot but I’m starting to wonder if revenge affairs are less revenge and more desperation. But that could just be my desperation talking lol
I found a decent and inexpensive massage place on Groupon, and they'll honor the Groupon price if you pay cash... been going pretty regularly and it is definitely worthwhile to get that touch.
And yes I believe it about the revenge affairs!
I have infinite patience. What I am running low on is enough physical activity to counteract the complete lack of touch. My friends and I joke a lot but I’m starting to wonder if revenge affairs are less revenge and more desperation. But that could just be my desperation talking lol
Get a hot personal trainer? Would an eye candy be sufficient?? Lol. In my gym I think the majority of female customers pay for a trainer to have someone cute to talk to. It’s like 90% talking and 10% working out. It always makes me giggle when I see them. Where I live the dating pool looks pretty hopeless. Not that I’m open to dating now but I wouldn’t even be able to fantasize about such a thing given the reality...
Maybe get one of those rabbit vibrators if you don’t have one already for self-help.
We gotta be creative these days!!!!
Get a hot personal trainer? Would an eye candy be sufficient?? Lol. In my gym I think the majority of female customers pay for a trainer to have someone cute to talk to. It’s like 90% talking and 10% working out. It always makes me giggle when I see them. Where I live the dating pool looks pretty hopeless. Not that I’m open to dating now but I wouldn’t even be able to fantasize about such a thing given the reality...
Maybe get one of those rabbit vibrators if you don’t have one already for self-help.
We gotta be creative these days!!!!
Well due to where I live most of the being out involves being in bar-ish or bar adjacent places. I've gotten my flirt on. I'm capable. Which feels good, because I wasn't sure I still had it in me. But no plans on acting on it further than that, which makes me feel superior to my H, I know petty, but whatever. Attention isn't really what I'm lacking.
I'm already very covered in the self help area...lol. I have a super high drive. Like one depression and/or anti-depressants couldn't kill. Never met a man yet who could keep up. H was the closest and he still couldn't. It was a source of contention in our MR occasionally. So I'm guessing you can tell my #1 love language is physical touch. So as much self help as I can give myself, I miss so much more than that. I miss hugging him. I miss holding his hand in the car. I miss holding him because he liked to be the little spoon like a weirdo. I miss him rubbing my butt at night before I'd fall asleep. I miss him propositioning me in weird places just to see my reaction. I miss his smell. I miss him running up on me when I'm not paying attention and smacking my butt. I miss our Saturday mornings in bed. I miss falling asleep on his chest when my insomnia won't let me fall back asleep. I miss the way he used to look at me. The one compliment the one time is the only nice thing he's said to me about me in months. All of this is why I'm starting to feel a little desperate. And having an IC who is still continuing to question me standing just over 12 weeks into this isn't exactly helping me find ways to deal with missing him other than telling myself that he isn't that person any more, and she's got nothing other than what a 1970s Cosmo suggests for the lack of being touched like a woman parts.
Remember, ICs work for you. And if they aren't working for you (see what I did there) do not settle. Get a new IC. People shop around for houses, cars, vacuum cleaners, TVs, etc....but settle for the first IC they land on.
Remember, ICs work for you. And if they aren't working for you (see what I did there) do not settle. Get a new IC. People shop around for houses, cars, vacuum cleaners, TVs, etc....but settle for the first IC they land on.
I know you're right. I've been toying with the idea of moving on. I hate the idea of starting from scratch and building a rapport all over again. However, while she was super helpful when I was a blubbering scattered emotional mess as weeks progress and I move through the stages of grief and become further detached but not willing to kick him out she's becoming less and less of what I need right now.
Yep-- just because someone is great at supporting blubbering messes doesn't mean she has what you need today.
I think it is OK, healthy and natural to miss these things. I do too. (Though for me it is weird, because physical touch isn't one of my primary LLs (it is his by far) and I was the one flinching away from his touch and cuddles on the couch and in bed for several years because ... oh a lot of reasons, not the least of which I didn't want it to lead to sex.) So for me to miss them now and want them feels weird... do I want it because I don't have it anymore and I want my toy back? (This is what my H thinks) Or, do I want it now because I've truly dug deep through all of this $hit and uncovered some of my insecurities and repressions around sex and physical touch, and I just don't want to be that person anymore-- I want to be physical and romantic and gooey, ideally with H but if not with the next person in my life? (I believe the latter, but I get why my H doesn't trust it.)
Anyway. We actually do touch each other now sometimes, the occasional hug or cuddle on the couch or in bed and it is like every brain receptor is firing this mix of utter relief and happiness and comfort and HOME. I know, know, know I shouldn't be doing this because of the way it makes me feel. It is not conducive to me detaching (plus, yes, the cake). But at the same time, the idea of getting over the missing of him feels sort of wrong.
Sorry, no advice, just understanding and confusion over here.
Hi, wayfarer. Gosh, that list of what you miss is the headspace I've been stuck in this past week—that and struggling to detach from good behavior, which for me is mostly just H's kindness and an interest in actually talking to me, which has allowed us to connect over some topics like we used to. I can only imagine how much harder it is in your case, when it's family time and your daughters notice too. Still, you are the queen of detachment and I know you will get there!
Also, may, what you said about *now* being the one craving/missing touch, I see myself in that whole paragraph too. As you probably can guess from my thread, I am now like, arghhhhh we are in the same house and I would do anything to be able to touch him!
Oh, and I also wanted to encourage you to look into some consultations with other ICs. I think it's important you get what you need! I've also found some seem to be more open to feedback than others.
Sorry, one quick tiny thought to follow on this:
Oh, and I also wanted to encourage you to look into some consultations with other ICs. I think it's important you get what you need! I've also found some seem to be more open to feedback than others.
Have you tried telling your IC that she isn't really helping you right now? That what you need from her at this moment is a bit more understanding of where you are and helping you there rather than pushing you in a direction you aren't ready for? Maybe that will help.
Sorry, one quick tiny thought to follow on this:
Have you tried telling your IC that she isn't really helping you right now? That what you need from her at this moment is a bit more understanding of where you are and helping you there rather than pushing you in a direction you aren't ready for? Maybe that will help.
The last session she pushed me to tell her what my bottom line is and when I'd like to see him leave. I said "Well I don't want to see him leave ever, but if he has to go I'd prefer he wait until June. The transition will be easier for the kids. As far as what my bottom line for boundaries is here. I have no idea what to tell you. I can say something here and that might not be true if it were to actually happen. Maybe if he gets her pregnant, I guess."
She looked at me in the face and said "Making it to April, his date, or June, your date, is a really long time to be miserable. Do you really think being miserable that long is a good idea? "
I said "April isn't that far. And June is what's best for the kids and my pocketbook. As far as being miserable, I've been far more miserable for far longer. I'm built for misery. This is a blip in time. Besides that I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't be miserable with him gone. It's been like 3 months. I'm not ready to give up on this marriage, and I can't legally make him leave."
"I really think you should give some serious consideration to your happiness and well being here."
And that was basically the end of the session.
Two sessions prior to that she was pushing the boundaries and end date. But left that open ended. Saying it's something I need to consider. Session before last was really pushing on my lack of boundaries, when I explained we have physical boundaries because that's really the only control I have. And he's not allowed in to my inner life if I'm not allowed into his. But it's practically impossible to impose boundaries on a person who is in full on I-do-what-I-want mode.You can say what ever you want but they don't have to respect it. And if I'm not ready to back anything up with legal repercussion there isn't much I can do. I got a reminder that boundaries are to protect ourselves. I felt like lady I know what a boundary is.
Out side of bluntly saying "I need support on the path I've chosen or we can't continue" I'm not sure there is much else I could say.
I feel like there should be a way for her to transition to, okay, you've stated your decision for now, so how can we focus on your happiness and wellbeing in the now? My IC sometimes says, How can I support you right now? Or, What kind of support do you need right now? I don't always know how to answer her. I don't see why you couldn't be honest with her and say, you know, "I am confident in my decision for now, though I give myself the freedom to change my mind. This is the kind of support I feel I need this week: xyz." Or just, as you say, "I need support on the path I've chosen." You can let her know it might not be a good fit for you otherwise, but maybe you wouldn't even have to say that. You could just know it. If she doesn't start to meet you where you are, you could reach out to some other ICs.
I miss his smell. I miss him running up on me when I'm not paying attention and smacking my butt. I miss our Saturday mornings in bed. I miss falling asleep on his chest when my insomnia won't let me fall back asleep. I miss the way he used to look at me. The one compliment the one time is the only nice thing he's said to me about me in months. All of this is why I'm starting to feel a little desperate.
I feel you. I got in bed last night and I could smell H (He probably was sleeping here when we were out of town). It made me really miss him. I actually texted him and said I miss him. Of course, no text back. My first late-night-couldn’t-stop-myself text and probably my last. When I look at him, I miss his old aura. Now there’s this empty shell around him. Even when he’s being friendly, loving....it’s just not the same anymore.
But sweet memories aside, I’m glad that he’s removed himself from this family for now and has taken that darkness with him. The anger, the frustration, the irritability, the yelling, just whole bunch of negativity in general....I would not want to take those back for brief moments of love.