Divorcebusting.com

Help with WW

Posted By: OS2

Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:23 PM

Really need some advice. Married 3.5yr, had a terrible 2019, me being super busy with work, close family illnesses both of which have disrupted the amount of time we've spent together. W also made a career move that didnít work out (and I didnít approve of and didnít really support). All the above have led to W spending a lot of time seeing friends and getting fulfilment outside the M. W said she wasnít happy twice during the year which we v briefly discussed and was put down to hormones and feeling worn out due to all the above.

BD was 1 month ago when I asked her whether she was happy because sheís spending a lot of time with friends and she was making plans before we could make plans together. W moved out to her mumís for some space (I think partially motivated by a friend whoís done similar). My reaction as a LBH was to analyse all the horrible and neglectful behaviour Iíve shown her this year (some of which Iím quite ashamed) and work on improving myself including being more loving, watching and reading marriage advice, gym, tidy house, better work/life balance, better lifestyle, DIY etc. 180 in many areas. W hasnít really changed at all - still busy all the time with friends although she is working on that. Thereís one particular male friend I donít trust sheís been getting close to that makes me jealous which I try not to admit. I donít think sheíd cheat though - no A but could argue friends are EA.

We chat daily over message and she comes over a few times a week (sometimes includes hugging, cuddling, napping together, playing with her hair (I know!)) but nothing more physical. I suggested she wasn't trying to R but W says she has been spending time with me and trying to R and get the spark back. She says she still loves me and attracted but thereís something missing. Weíve talked a lot and Iíve asked several times for her to move back to work on the M (I know). She says it doesnít feel right and she even said she has no logic right now, only emotions. Both love each other a lot. She says she doesnít want me to put my life on hold for her. Last conversation felt quite final where she told me what a great guy I am etc. almost as if she's letting me go.

Iíve read a lot of posts on here and think I understand most of the strategies. Is my W a WW? (I think she is and has enjoyed space and autonomy without pleasing people) Should I be detaching myself? Is there a risk she would move on if I detach? Should she move back in and under what circumstances? We txt daily - should I stall on that/reply with the minimum or be exciting and fun showing how Iím GAL? Should I be spending time with her when she asks? Should I be fun and interesting when in her company - like the 'dating me' was? Iím GAL and becoming a better person. I do feel leaning away will help.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

OS2
Posted By: job

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:25 PM

Welcome! I am posting in Cadet's Welcome post for you.

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon


Me-65, D33,S32
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:41 PM

O,

I think you most likely have a wayward on your hands as you most likely havenít been married long enough for a walk away. Your gut is right 90% of the time so my guess is sheís cheating with the gentleman you suspect.

Sheís getting her needs met with both of you. Connection and uncertainty with him and certainty with you. I would stop the cuddling and playing with her hair (seriously) and donít be available all the time. Donít be exciting and fun around her but be miserable and mopey as thatís more attractive (JK). How old are the two of you? Assuming no children?
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:48 PM

Thanks LH19. No children, both 30s. I was sceptical at first of her being a WW but she seems classic symptoms. Fallen into the classic traps I think but better understanding of what I'm doing now. She's very morally minded, supportive of me and has been very upset about the whole thing but as you say difficult to tell when the emotions take over.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:51 PM

Confused about judging 'tough love' replying to messages with simple answers and detaching vs being fun and exciting in my replies getting her attention and show how I'm desirable to be around.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:54 PM

Well O if I had a nickel for every moral minded person who cheated I would never work again

Yep. Logic and reason would say stay and work it out with hubby. Emotions say otherwise. When decisions are made based on emotions there are bound to be consequences.
Posted By: job

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 07:55 PM

You need to step back and allow her to come to you. Only text her in an emergency. If she texts you, wait an hour or so before you reply or even longer. She needs to realize that you are busy and not sitting on that phone waiting for her call/text.

The best way to get her attention is to live your life to the fullest. Get out there and GAL. Be the man were when she met you. If you think that there are things that you need to change about yourself, now is the time to do it and do it for YOU, not your wife.

She can't miss you if you are available and texting, etc....give her lots of space and time. Be mysterious. You do not need to tell her everything you are doing. For example, if she asks you to come over, tell her that you are busy, but you could make the trip another evening.

Read the links that I posted. They will help you.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 11:17 PM

Should I ask her about this potential OM? Or avoid the subject entirely?
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/30/19 11:58 PM

It makes me wonder whether the possibility of an OM is the reason why W doesnít want to come home. Donít think Iíd thought about it too seriously before LH19 put it like that. Iíd like to think itís nothing more than an EA
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 11:59 AM

Stepped back. W says she misses me and is confused. She said she's trying to get her head straight. Should I raise the topic of the OM at some point? I feel I want to play it cool and keep detaching letting her figure out things for herself.
Posted By: job

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 12:03 PM

I would stay silent for the moment about the OM. Step back, give her space and time to figure herself out. The OM is nothing more than a band aid to her issues and she's using him to make herself feel better.

No relationship talks unless she brings it up! Right now you need to LISTEN when she speaks. Do not offer up advice unless she asks for it. The words silent and listen use the same letters to spell out each word. Just a bit of trivia...food for thought.

Dig deeper for patience and keep the focus on you. One last thing...BREATHE!

Also, please read the links that I provided to you last evening. Here is one more valuable link that you need to read today and begin working on:

Sandi2's 37 Rules #2

Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 01:05 PM

Thank you @Job. Easy to get obsessive. W isn't sure whether to come over tonight to see me before new year, her head's a bit scrambled and she said she doesn't want to be upset or confuse me. Have said I understand and it's up to her if she wants to come round and don't need to talk about anything. If not I'll try and find a party to go to (GAL and all that). Tonight could be a real low point if I stay at home.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 01:37 PM

She's coming over. I think tonight will be quite critical as it'll be the first proper visit with detachment. If W advances to cuddle etc should I brush her off and tell her "I don't think I feel that's the right thing for us to be doing until we are in a better place" or go along with it but only follow her lead and not lean in? I sense she will want to feel better by being close. It would send a clear message back on boundaries but I'm not sure if that's right.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 01:43 PM

Ok OS2 I am going to tell you how to salvage your M because I think you have a chance.

Youíve only been married for 4 years so there isnít enough resentment built up or else you would be toast. Right now her emotions are telling her to be with OM while her logic and reason is telling her she is married to you. A woman makes her decisions on based on emotions and uses logic and reason to justify her decisions. The longer this goes on and she builds a connection with the OM the slimmer your chances get. She canít rebuild her relationship with you while she has feelings for him. You canít control her actions so what can you do? You get a life like a mad man and you donít sit around and wait for her to come by and give you scraps. For this to change she has to think that youíre not sitting around waiting for her to choose.
Posted By: job

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 01:47 PM

I would follow her lead. If you don't feel up to cuddling, just say "wife, I'm not up for that this evening" and leave it at that. You have to determine what you will or will not do in the boundary arena. Each situation is different and each poster needs to think long and hard as to what they will or will not accept. Because of what she's done to you and your family, I wouldn't make things easy for her. She would need to work on herself and, if she wants to return, she would need to regain your trust and right now, she's still a very confused woman who is keeping you right where she left you.

When speaking to her, remain calm and keep the tone of your voice level. Do not raise your voice and definitely look her in the eye.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 01:55 PM

Thanks both. I will make plans and go out later unless she stays (and it develops into anything worth staying for). I will lean away and play it by ear but won't be offering anything up and don't really want to be settling for just cuddles right now. Tomorrow I get a life like a madman. I've been starting that but I can really dig in. I've got resources and time.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 02:06 PM

Good! Youíre the prize.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Thank you @Job. Easy to get obsessive. W isn't sure whether to come over tonight to see me before new year, her head's a bit scrambled and she said she doesn't want to be upset or confuse me. Have said I understand and it's up to her if she wants to come round and don't need to talk about anything. If not I'll try and find a party to go to (GAL and all that). Tonight could be a real low point if I stay at home.


You need to flip the on its head. Make plans. Then when she wants to come over you say "sorry, I have plans".
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 12/31/19 06:53 PM

Really positive evening. Commented on several 180s, surprised at several GAL things Iíve got coming up. W said she wanted to see me because she thought Iíd be alone but was surprised (and pleased) Iíve got plans. Said sheís really started to miss me over the last few days and is seeing a bit more clearly. Didnít push anything, no physical either. Said she found me a bit hostile at first but said I settled down. Wanted to be busy and was getting ready so didnít show her a lot of attention when she arrived. She said her NY resolution is no more stupid mistakes. OM still a mystery but I feel more positive regardless - can tackle that in time. Will continue what Iím doing, getting on with my life. She even mentioned having children this time next year! She said she thought she should be thinking about children (and used to want them) but the last year has led to a lot of doubts but sheís feeling more positive about it. A big factor I think in the MLC sort of thing that I hadnít thought of.

Now off out with friends. HNY all.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 01:48 AM

Disaster.

GAL was going well, reconnecting with W and was seeming to make real progress. She said she wants to move in soon and get things back on track.

A few of Wís actions recently made me curious again of the OM and led me to look at her messages which confirmed my worst suspicions of OM and an A. W came over straight away and we talked through everything calmly and openly. W says mainly EA but also physical. W says physical finished over a month ago but is still friends with OM which I think I believe. Ive been processing the concept of that for over a month but seeing it in black and white is so awful.

Completely lost and empty. No idea what to do. Still love her and she wants to work through it all but I feel so broken right now. She said tonight she hasnt been able to reconnect due to the guilt from November and it just felt wrong to come back when she has betrayed me and our marriage.

What next?
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 01:54 AM

Keep up with GAL...take your time and do your best to listen more and speak less (not saying you aren't doing that now).

You need to know she's serious so give her time to prove that and expect there to be bumps. You don't have to decide this right away so don't rush it.

I woudn't believe her when she says the PA ended a month ago. She was caught and she's going to try and massage the truth as best as you'll let her. Let her talk and then take your time to process things.

Let her prove to you that she wants to work through this...the vets will provide more.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 02:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jac12


Let her prove to you that she wants to work through this...the vets will provide more.


Thanks Jac12. I feel like I want to limit any further damage and ask her to break off any relationship with the OM while I process. Is that a good idea?
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 03:05 AM

If she was serious she'd break off the relationship...I personally don't feel like she is there yet. Just my gut.

As for the damage - I just don't see that it works like that. Of course YOU'd like to limit further damage to YOUR ego but you can't control her actions. If she wanted to limit the damage she'd be acting accordingly.

Be patient, focus on yourself and GAL and let her sort out her mess. She has to realize that SHE is the one missing out on you.
Posted By: jstrembr

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 04:19 AM

Your situation sounds very similar to mine. I am older but my wife is your age.

I think trying to force anything with the OM just makes her reach out to him more. I am new here so take my advice with a grain of salt, but I can that happened with me. I pushed the our own relationship, etc, and it just pushed her farther away.

I agree with Jac12, she has to decide on her own that she misses you and you will know when she has made that decision because she wouldnít continue to be friends with him.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 08:10 AM

Thanks both. Jstrembr I read your thread, you sound so thoroughly decent Iím sorry youíre here. Sounds classic where your W is emotionally fulfilled somewhere else but still has love and respect for you and her head is confusing her. Hang in there.

For my situation, I donít want to take my W at her word right now and still feel extremely dubious but my W has been doing a lot of things in preparation for moving back in and I see that a lot of the things sheís done over the last 2 months since she left (outside the A) are on ďfixing thingsĒ so we can have another shot at marriage. I think her plan was delayed for moving back in due to guilt etc but she says she has been coping with that slightly better recently. She assured me last night that the A was 3 weeks in November and she stopped it and moved out to come to terms with it. Again Iím dubious but it matches the other things I know to some degree (with probable overlap). She said last night it was a mistake and that she was hoping Iíd never find out and we could move on but there were too many clues to ignore.

We need to talk more and I need to entirely detach for a bit but I was wondering if she wants to work on it should I give her an ultimatum or present her with what I would need from her (no contact, etc) or should I wait for her? Iíd really like to tell her I want her to have nothing to do with him but there is an EA there and I donít want to push her towards it. Sheís got to agree to it. I donít want to rush it though either. Feel Iíve got time to reflect and come to terms with it now. I might be in control of the timeframe finally.
Posted By: jstrembr

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 09:00 AM

Iíve personally never liked ultimatums. If you choose to give her one you have to be prepared to follow through with it or else she will know you never meant it and that will set you back.

I think if she genuinely wants to work on it, then just tell her what you need. If she doesnít like your requests, especially the no contact, then she may not actually be ready to work on this.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 12:37 PM

I second jstrembr above.

If you R there will be a time for you to tell what you need to be able to move forward and I would assume complete NC with OM will be one of those things.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 01:39 PM

I just went back and read your thread - is this the first confirmation you've had of an OM?

If so, don't be surprised if you aren't getting the full story. Prepare yourself for the worst as she'll likely only tell you enough to get what she wants right now, whatever that is.

Patience will be key as she needs to do the work to regain your trust. Just be cautious.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 01:46 PM

Thanks for the head up Jac12. Yes, Iíve suspected it for weeks but last night had confirmation. She only surrendered the info when it was absolutely obvious Iíd seen the whole chat history and knew. Last night we talked detail about the A but Iím nervous the EA is greater than the A and she wonít want to break it off (yet). She still thinks heís wonderful although of course I see an opportunistic little scumbag with no scruples. Iím going to ask her tonight about it and if she refuses Iím not ready to extend the olive branch. She will need to figure that out on her own and Iíll make it quite clear we canít heal or R unless that happens. She will need to rebuild my trust while I figure out if I can take her back.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 05:44 PM

W is round now. She says sheíll end things with OM and sheís bright and chirpy like everythingís fine now. Seems that she has been carrying that weight of the A. I, meanwhile are still hurt and angry. Iím being careful not to jump back into things.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 06:08 PM

Yes, it's a lot to process...maybe one of the vets will chime in but maybe next time she brings it up you can let her know what you need in order to move forward. Clear and concise. Until then I wouldn't bring things up...just keep GAL and detach for now.

Do you know what you would need in order to heal and move forward towards a stronger marriage?
Posted By: job

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 06:23 PM

Your w will need to end things completely w/the OM and I am not just talking about an affair, but the emotional one as well. That means no contact w/him and the saying "we are just friends"...don't buy into it. That statement is used quite often by the wayward spouses. She has a lot of work ahead of her to regain your trust. She will need to be transparent in all of her texting, emails, etc. If she can't agree to that at some point, then she's still got issues w/the OM.

It's going to take a while to get your relationship back on track and you cannot do it alone. She has to be willing to go to counseling and like I mentioned above, be transparent w/you as well. If you haven't done so, I would set up some IC for yourself and if, and when she's on board, she seek out IC and later move on to MC. However, as long as he is still in the picture...she won't be working on the relationship w/you.

I wouldn't attempt to have another relationship discussion. If you continue to bring up the OM, sure she may tell you she'll end it and then sneak around behind your back. It's a thrill and a challenge to keep secrets like this from the spouse. The less you say for now, the better. Step back, give her space and time and allow her to come to you. Try to keep the focus on you and your life.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 07:22 PM

Thanks job/Jac12

Been quite an eventful day and Iíve probably not handled everything that well. I got about 2 hours sleep max last night and went to the gym this morning as part of my GAL (on 0 food because I couldnít eat anything). We got everything out in the open last night but tonight she came round and I set out what would need to happen going forward. She talked about OM in much more depth this time including things he has done which she liked almost as if to transfer those approaches onto me it felt like. She said she has read up on advice online and agreed that she will cut off all communication full stop with him. She says they are just friends currently but will still cut him completely. W said OM is just another man but Iím special to her.

Jac - Iíve got a list of things I want for me, her and us both. We went through the list and they all were agreed upon. Lots to work on and I feel I need to remain detached until concrete progress is made re OM but heading in the right direction. I need closure with that now. I feel like I mentally processed some of the PA due to me suspecting it but it is still tough to get your head around. Big breach of trust and hurtful. Will take time to get over, and she has her work cut out.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/11/20 07:48 PM

Wishing you well OS2. I hope it all works out.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 07:26 AM

Thank you all. W went quiet on me yesterday while she was out. Turns out she was visiting a girl friend for coffee and just feels Iím checking up on her all the time but I talked to her about being open and she understands she has to be completely transparent. Sheís enabled FindMyFriends on her phone and she is cutting off the friendship with OM on Wed.

She stayed over last night for the first time in over a month. I was torn between standing my ground on my requests and the progress of having her back home. We kissed before she left for work this morning, I initiated and she responded.

I feel entirely trapped in the middle of my feelings for her, excitement at having the woman I love back in the house again and the betrayal and feelings of sadness that I keep reminding myself of. Still feel very bruised.

My question is - how should I be acting? Naturally I want to be honest and explain Iím hurt etc. but since the A happened a while ago now she has had all Christmas to come to terms with it while itís still fresh to me. I want to be attractive for her while she tries again though. Should I be trying to be GAL, attractive, fun etc even though Iím still hurting and she knows why? It will take me a while to fully forgive her.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 01:02 PM

Steve will talk about the importance of GAL even when you reconcile. And of course being attractive is something you should strive to maintain.

If she's not willing to hear your pain and understand what she's put you through then R may be a challenge.

I assume you'll go to MC? She can't hide from the hurt that she's caused but you guys CAN move forward into a stronger relationship in the future.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 02:57 PM

OS, which of these two guys is most attractive?

1) Wants to talk about his pain and hurt. Walks around mopey and sad. Gets passive-aggressive when he feels that he is not being respected properly, or that his W that strayed goes dark while out. Tries to control his W and know where she is and who she is with in order to feel confident himself. Sits home and monitors his W whenever she is home.

2) Is confident that he is a great catch and that his W is lucky to have him. Walks around pleased, fulfilled, and content. Doesn't waver in that walking around confident in his self-worth no matter what his W's actions are. Is not interested in a MR where he has to keep tabs and track his W. Is busy, and has a full life to the point where he doesn't just sit home mopey begging for crumbs from his W.

After you answer, then ask yourself which one you are acting more like.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 04:03 PM

Nail, head. Thank you Steve85.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 06:56 PM

OS2, whatever your was before, she is now a lying cheater. Maybe that will change in the future, but right now that's what she is. She LIES and she CHEATS. Guess what lying cheaters do when caught, they pile more lies on top of the lies. They gaslight. "He's just a friend." "You're paranoid." "There's nothing going on." "Well we were physical once, but it was a mistake and we didn't do it again." She is telling you what she thinks you want to hear, NOT THE TRUTH. She is minimizing her involvement with OM to keep you on as Plan B. Don't believe a word out of her mouth right now. Chances are very good she is in much deeper with OM. If she says they had sex a couple of times, multiply it by 10 or 20. Seriously, we've seen this here a lot and these are the games cheaters play.

So now she says she wants to move back in to get things back on track and work on the M. How should you respond? A big fat NO. You tell her that she has a lot of work to do on herself before you will consider that. SHE needs to earn YOUR trust and respect again, not the other way around. She needs to seek out personal counseling, and then later follow that up with marriage counseling so you can discuss terms of reconciliation. And SHE needs to set that up, not you. You need to make her do all the work.
Posted By: jstrembr

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 07:20 PM

I am not at the point where OS2 is, I hope I get the call someday that my wife wants to move back in and work on our marriage.

I feel like this advice is a bit conflicted. On the one hand you want to be confident and show you are so confident you don't need to check up, but the fact is she lied and cheated on you. So there has to be some transparency from your wife correct?

I always felt like if I were to get to this point one requirement I would have is my wife would need to share all her passwords with me. I wouldn't check up on her all the time, but the ability for me to do so should exist.

So is it just a balancing act of making sure she knows you have a need to regain trust, but also you are confident she has now chosen you and so you need to not be constantly worried about it?

I'm just asking as I sure hope to be where OS2 is at, and I want to be prepared if it ever happens.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by jstrembr
I am not at the point where OS2 is, I hope I get the call someday that my wife wants to move back in and work on our marriage.

I feel like this advice is a bit conflicted. On the one hand you want to be confident and show you are so confident you don't need to check up, but the fact is she lied and cheated on you. So there has to be some transparency from your wife correct?

I always felt like if I were to get to this point one requirement I would have is my wife would need to share all her passwords with me. I wouldn't check up on her all the time, but the ability for me to do so should exist.

So is it just a balancing act of making sure she knows you have a need to regain trust, but also you are confident she has now chosen you and so you need to not be constantly worried about it?

I'm just asking as I sure hope to be where OS2 is at, and I want to be prepared if it ever happens.


js, if you read my sitch you will see that in August my W had a slip up. I found emails that she had exchanged with a guy where they were then meeting up on an online game. She admitted that their conversations had deviated into the inappropriate territory at times.

js, this is where my DBing, right from the get-go this time, went into affect. My handling of this was completely different than it was the last time. I let her know it was unacceptable. That I wasn't willing to share her with other guys, even online. That if she wanted to continue doing that then I didn't want to remain married to her.

Her demeanor was completely different. She was repentant and apologetic (after initial defiance when first confronted). She took all pictures of herself off of the online games. She gave me all passwords to all accounts, left all of her devices unlocked, offered up complete transparency.

My attitude was that I didn't want a W I had to keep an eye on. I didn't want to track her, her devices etc. I was over that.

You see, here is the thing js, if your spouse cheats and lies, and then agrees to full monitoring, are they behaving themselves because they love and want to be with you? Or because the are being watched? We often say that you will know when they are back committed to the MR when their behavior is consistent over a long period of time. You don't have to be tracking them 24/7 to see it.

So if you want a defiant teenager for a W that you constantly have to monitor, then go for it. If you want a W that you can trust, then you will do what AS said and sit back and make them do all of the work.

You'll never be more attractive to your wayward spouse as you are as you are walking away.
Posted By: jstrembr

Re: Help with WW - 01/13/20 07:52 PM

That makes a lot of sense! Thank you Steve, I really see where you are coming from now.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/15/20 08:00 PM

Thanks for the comments. Had a long chat with W yesterday over message and she talked through a lot of marriage issues, and how terrible she feels about losing her way and how much she regrets the A. She said she hates herself for it and doesnít know why she went through with it. She went over to OMís tonight after the gym to formally break it off. I said I want her to have nothing further to do with him and never see him again. She has complied. Didnít like her going to his tonight one bit but didnít force the issue, sheís done that on her terms which I didnít object to so that she could end it formally (although I was obviously suspicious). She maintains she went back to friends a while ago although I have no idea whether I believe that.

What should I be doing now? She is allowing herself to be tracked location-wise, is very sad and angry about the A, has broken off with OM (hopefully). Iíve read before on here you will ďknow when itís time for her to come backĒ. What should I be looking for? Still cuts me up to think of the betrayal but really want to build a new foundation. It will still take me a while to forgive.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Help with WW - 01/15/20 09:10 PM

Be very wary. It is pretty soon for her to be hitting bottom, often when a cheater has an early epiphany like this it doesn't take hold. They'll break up with OP and then resume contact in a few days or weeks except go even deeper undercover. Are the two of you still living together? If you're separated then don't allow her back right away. She should be going to counseling to help her resolve her issues. IC at first, then MC for both of you. Don't stop DB'ing!
Posted By: mtb1981

Re: Help with WW - 01/15/20 09:15 PM

Right now, it is very important for you to remember one of the golden rules... Believe nothing she says and only half of what she does...

It's easy for the LBS to believe the things you mentioned in your last post, because that's what they want to believe more than anything. As was mentioned earlier, it is not uncommon for the WW to say they are cutting off contact with the OM and then just become more secretive about it...

Tread easy, take it slow, and keep DB'ing. You got this...
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 03:35 PM

Thanks both. Last night we had another long messaging session when she got back from OMís. She said the OM could have been anybody and taking him out of the picture was easy and she wasnít really bothered about it. W also said she could get round being tracked if she so wanted but it was over a while ago with OM anyway (which seemed to me she didnít value the idea of having a false location to hide behind). Sheís said before she wanted companionship, to be listened to and to feel attractive and she felt she had to get that elsewhere. She said the actual problem is us and how weíve treated each other over the last year - not giving each other what we need. She said she has wanted to come back so much but is scared in case weíre not good for one another and we repeat how we havenít been making each other happy this last 1-2 years. She said she feels sick to not be with her H. I wanted to see her after the chat so went over and stayed with her at her parents (who are out of town) but there is still a mental block on anything physical. I think she has to make the emotional decision first. She said sheís sad that she currently doesnít want to do anything physical and that itís not a linear process even though there are still deep feelings. I go away with work soon and there was talk of her making a decision whether to move back in while Iím away.

Iím of course still sceptical given the past 2 months but I do believe she is trying to work through it. Iím still confident we will resolve.

Presumably I should keep DBíing, and reading through the rules right? GAL etc. And love is a waiting game right? Would like to throw a little romance in here and there but think I need to keep a healthy distance while she figures all this out.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 03:47 PM

... there was also talk from her of what would have to change that I missed in the above. Having more of a voice, being more of an equal partner,being valued and listened to.

I want to show her I would make her happy and fulfil what she needs of me. Yet I have to continue GAL and let her decide for herself through my actions right? Thatís what I meant by throwing in some romance.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 03:51 PM

Sorry, but GOING to OM's to break it off? Really? That can be done over phone. Text. Email. USPS. Carrier pigeon. I personally feel this is all a ploy. Do you know how long she was there? You see, I think she knew you'd see where she was and made up the "I went over there to break it off". DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING SHE SAYS!!

Of course it is easy to get around being tracked. She can go to his place and leaver her phone home.

Originally Posted by OS2
She went over to OMís tonight after the gym to formally break it off. I said I want her to have nothing further to do with him and never see him again. She has complied.


She has? How has she complied, because she said she is complying? See my all caps comment above.

OS2 you are believing her.....because you WANT to. Here is the real question, what are you still providing to her that she is afraid to lose? Money? Are you paying for her phone? Car? Other things?

OS2, this gives me all a bad feeling, that you are being played. She says:

Originally Posted by OS2
Had a long chat with W yesterday over message and she talked through a lot of marriage issues, and how terrible she feels about losing her way and how much she regrets the A. She said she hates herself for it and doesnít know why she went through with it.


But then:


Originally Posted by OS2
TShe said she has wanted to come back so much but is scared in case weíre not good for one another and we repeat how we havenít been making each other happy this last 1-2 years. She said she feels sick to not be with her H. She said sheís sad that she currently doesnít want to do anything physical and that itís not a linear process even though there are still deep feelings. I go away with work soon and there was talk of her making a decision whether to move back in while Iím away.


OS2, if she really wanted what she says, she'd do it. None of this makes sense.

Remember, when she wants to come back...YOU WILL KNOW. When she doesn't, YOU WILL BE CONFUSED.

Do you know or are you confused?
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 03:53 PM

Also, how is engaging her in these long messages and going to her parents to stay, DBing exactly?
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 05:10 PM

I knew I'd get stick for the way I've handled it over the last couple of days. I just really believe her. She's not that good at lying. She told me about going to OM's to break it off and informed me before she went. When I asked her to never see him again she said she knew she needed to do that and didn't protest. I didn't insist on her doing it remotely because I wanted to allow her to formally end it on her terms so there could be no excuses. She was there about an hour. You're right Steve85 I don't know for certain whether she has complied. Should I be asking her for proof of no numbers or contact with him on her phone? Do you think she is directing attention away from him by concentrating conversation on our marriage and saying he's disposable? I'm sure she knows if I discover that there is likely no way back.

I'm not paying for anything, she is standing on her own.

I think I am a bit confused though yes. Either I am plan B (and she might even be still seeing OM) or at least in no rush to make any decisions or she is genuinely hurt and bruised by the last year where neither of us prioritised each other's happiness and she fears that coming back will revert to more of the same and be good for neither of us. She said last night she worries I will hold this over her, become controlling and boss her around. (I do realise this could be a good deflection technique to persuade me not to ask to see her phone etc because it would suggest I may do that in future)

Do I make demands on seeing her phone and proving there is no contact etc ongoing? Should I detach and then ask for that when she makes contact?
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Should I be asking her for proof of no numbers or contact with him on her phone? Do you think she is directing attention away from him by concentrating conversation on our marriage and saying he's disposable?

Do I make demands on seeing her phone and proving there is no contact etc ongoing? Should I detach and then ask for that when she makes contact?


IN the order you asked:

Absolutely NO!
I don't know.
Absolutely NO!
Yes you should detach, NO don't ask for that when she makes contact!

Where is your DBing? Where is your GAL? How are you 180ing and improving yourself? Where is your work on detaching? I none of that in anything you are doing. The woman left you. Went to stay somewhere else. Started an A, and as soon as she gives lip service to "I am sorry. I hate myself. I will go to his place and tell him it is over, for an hour, but then I agree to your demand to no contact with him!" you are running over there to stay with her. Sorry OS2, that is not DBing.

If you read the experts on the best way to attract her back, it is the EXACT opposite of what you are doing. MWD is one of many, and trust me I've read a ton of the experts' advice, that advocates the approach of backing off. Giving time and space.

The time for full transparency on her part will come when she has come back AND been consistent in her actions and behavior for a time. Before that you run the risk of her going wayward on you again. TRUST me on that count. I lived it.

GAL. Focus on yourself and your 180s. Work on detachment. Become the spouse only a fool would leave, but leave her alone to figure out her own stuff!!
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 06:48 PM

Thanks Steve85. Saw W tonight at the gym, did my own thing and she said she wants to meet for lunch or tomorrow night. Think Iím busy for both anyway but should I be meeting up with her for these? Some of the time and be busy the rest of the time? Or should I treat this as dating and have a busy life but schedule around my plans?

Curious about the proof concept with texting. W was always on her phone with friends and of course OM. Is there a point where itís right to ask for proof of no contact or should I rely on knowing she wants to be with me through her actions? It seems counter intuitive to not care but I absolutely understand the logic and display of confidence behind it.

I find detachment works so well in attracting attention like the dance thatís often described. I donít know whether I should be staying detached though or taking just some of the attention for meet-ups. I sometimes feel that our M (because weíre married just a short amount of time and in 30s) isnít appropriate for some of the severity of some of the DB rules which may include bad breakups, very wayward spouses, abusive, and repeat behaviour. I know that probably sounds naive because Iíve got a W who cheated but there is still a lot of love between us no matter whatís happened. And Iím confident in my ability to get her back. She was always the chaser and I got complacent (not justification for her actions but background).
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by OS2

Curious about the proof concept with texting. W was always on her phone with friends and of course OM. Is there a point where itís right to ask for proof of no contact or should I rely on knowing she wants to be with me through her actions? It seems counter intuitive to not care but I absolutely understand the logic and display of confidence behind it.

I will repeat my answer from above to this:

Originally Posted by Steve85

The time for full transparency on her part will come when she has come back AND been consistent in her actions and behavior for a time. Before that you run the risk of her going wayward on you again. TRUST me on that count. I lived it.


I will also add to that, if she is truly sorry for her actions than likely full transparency will be her idea! Because she will want to prove to you that she is no longer seeing OM. That she is committed to your marriage. That she is all in.

Originally Posted by OS2

I find detachment works so well in attracting attention like the dance thatís often described. I donít know whether I should be staying detached though or taking just some of the attention for meet-ups. I sometimes feel that our M (because weíre married just a short amount of time and in 30s) isnít appropriate for some of the severity of some of the DB rules which may include bad breakups, very wayward spouses, abusive, and repeat behaviour. I know that probably sounds naive because Iíve got a W who cheated but there is still a lot of love between us no matter whatís happened. And Iím confident in my ability to get her back. She was always the chaser and I got complacent (not justification for her actions but background).


All of us struggle with the idea that detachment can work. All of our instincts are that we should be pressuring. Pursuing. Going after our WAS like crazy. But that is what everyone does, and it results in a very low percentage of marriages saved.

Detachment is counter-intuitive....and that is why it works better. She expects you to jump at every breadcrumb she throws your direction. One of the biggest mistakes LBSs make is to get some breadcrumbs and to drop DBing, go back to pressuring and pursuing. That pushes the walkaway spouse right back to running away.

Like I said, when she is serious she is ready to come back, you will now. It will not be ambiguous. You won't have to guess. You will know with no doubt.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 08:42 PM

Thank you Steve85, thatís really invaluable advice for me at the moment. I instructed her to end it with OM and was tempted to ask for proof but it just seemed too controlling. I made some slip ups when I found out as was emotionally involved of course. W has said she worries I will continue to be controlling (as I tended to be when I found out, and in charge of the house when we were M) given the A so this would act as a 180 for me too probably. It makes a lot of sense taking your approach with that.

I find the detachment remarkable, it really does work. I was distant when I saw her tonight and Iím getting meet-up requests, she wants to buy me things and sending me things online tonight.

Thanks for the advice, I will stay detaching and wait for change. Iím going abroad next week so will make sure I have a blast and let my hair down.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 09:34 PM

You're right, telling her to stop contacting OM and then demanding evidence is controlling. If you have had issues with that then continuing to demonstrate controlling behavior can definitely confirm in her mind that he did the right thing. You have to go the exact opposite and just not give a crap. It is hard, but it is the only way you will show her you have changed.

In my first sitch in 2005, I had suspicions of my W's EA. I installed spy software on our PC and sure enough she was spending most of the day, and a lot of the nights when she was in our home office "working", IMing her EAP. He was on the hard press trying to get her to meet him. (Just thinking about it again boils my blood!) After I confronted her she immediately said she wanted to save the marriage, sent him a no contact email, life went on. She went through withdrawals really badly (this is a big sign you can look for, if your W really does end it with OM she will go through mourning withdrawals). About 6 weeks in the spy software caught an email to her girlfriends saying how much she missed him, and thought about him and was tempted to email him. That she felt like a caged animal. Then the next day it caught a very short email exchange between her and OM. And another email to her girlfriends saying she had contacted him and didn't care if I say it on the spyware.

That night I went home, uninstalled the spyware, told her she was free to do whatever she wanted and that I would do what I needed to do based on her decisions. The very next day I got home from work and she met me at the door and planted the most passionate kiss we had shared in years on me. The next morning she initiated sex. And from that moment on she was all in on the marriage again, her actions backed that up. Until our new sitch 2 years ago.

The point is that the old adage: "let them go and if it is meant to be they will come back". You are holding onto her so tight right now that she doesn't feel like she can comeback or the grip will tighten. Let her go. Start showing her that not only don't you care anymore, but that YOU are moving on without her, and you might just save your marriage. Holding on tight won't do it!
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/16/20 11:33 PM

Thanks for sharing Steve85, some similarities in the approach with tracking. As I said before she was the chaser from the start but I got complacent. She wanted to impress me and win me over so for the first couple of years of the relationship she moulded herself to what she thought I wanted. Over the last few years I drowned myself in work and she started going out having a good time because I was boring. She went out one night and in a moment of madness (and over something really ridiculous) I tried to access one of her accounts to check something. It was stupid and I owned up immediately and apologised but she remembers that as being a breach of trust when she had nothing to hide. Fast forward to more recently I suspected for a while about the A and asked her about it which she staunchly denied. There were just too many clues and I needed to know so I gained access to one of her accounts and found out about the A. And of course she knows about that too. What I did is nothing to what she has done but itís still there. She says she is worried I will turn resentful because of what she has done. Weíve spoken about what we would ever do if we found out about an affair with a spouse years ago just in conversation when discussing another couple or something on TV. She said she would forgive the first time, I said I would divorce and could never trust that person again.

She said she wanted to tell me about the A but she feared I would maintain my world view and end the M. She has been really surprised at me wanting to work on our M and try and forgive her. She said she didnít think Iíd ďfight for her like I haveĒ. She finds that suspicious like I will turn bossy/nasty/unpleasant later (but I know I wouldnít let myself do that). As part of our early conversations I obviously hated the idea of her still seeing OM and talking to him. And I said the first things to demonstrate her efforts to reconcile would have to be enabling location tracking (was actually turned off over something silly just prior to the A but timing is convenient - she hates the idea of being monitored) and ending it with the OM. I like the security of the tracker but maybe under your experience I should consider turning it off and telling her the outcome of our relationship is based on her actions? I donít want to be a H that has to keep an eye on this W, I hate it and really doesnít feel good. Iíve told her the tracker isnít about being monitored itís about demonstrating thereís nothing to hide.

The thing that is really bugging me is that she has a wall up against moving things to the next level - moving back in, getting physical. Adding to the complication is that she is now house sitting for her parents so canít really move back straight away. At first I thought it was her being unhappy, then I thought it was OM, then I thought it was guilt (she said she didnít feel like she be close being false knowing what sheíd done). When the PA was outed she said a weight had been lifted. But the wall is still there. Donít know whether itís fear of coming back and not being happy/not being certain about our future, OM (grieving or still having feelings or even still seeing - she says sheís not bothered) or just emotional fallout thatís scrambled her game. She said last night she could probably turn the physical back on but sheís not ready. If itís OM I canít control that. If itís anything else I guess I need to detach and let her work it out which is my gameplan. Thing thatís ruining my resolve to follow that game plan is that she is wanting to connect several times a day now - buying me things, messaging me, updating me about her day, sharing songs etc. which is great and I want that to continue and get back. I also wonder whether shes shifting the role of OM back over to me. Another thing Iíve found very curious is her detailing things she liked about OM almost as if to ask me to do/be the same things for her. So thatís messing my game because I feel I need to be there for her to build up the relationship again and if Iím unavailable I wonít be there to build it with her. But a DBíer might call those many breadcrumbs for the time being?

Sorry for the long post.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 12:30 AM

All I can tell you is that the best chance to get her back is to stop trying to get her back. Pressure and pursuit give you a 99% chance of ending up divorced. DBing really well gives you a way better chance. I suggest a 50/50 chance though some of the vets here claim that it is less than that. The point is it is still much higher odds than pressure and pursuit.

You're still putting too much stock in her words. Believe nothing she says. She's a liar and a cheater and must earn your trust back.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 06:05 PM

How is it best to handle accusations of being cold and punishing her when detaching?
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 06:07 PM

Validation
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
How is it best to handle accusations of being cold and punishing her when detaching?


I agree 100% with LH...but first: Do not believe anything she says (even accusations of being cold and punishing her when detaching). WSs/WASs will use any tool at their disposal to try to get the LBS to remain attached. Don't fall for it. Your distance is giving her what she asked for. No one moves out and lives with their parents and then expects their husband to remain completely plugged into everything they are doing. It doesn't make logical sense!
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 06:32 PM

Thanks both that makes sense. Said I can see why she might feel like that but Iím just busy.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 07:00 PM

W has booked in our shared calendar to see me tomorrow night (which weíve agreed but delayed from today) and to cook me a meal Sun.
Posted By: mtb1981

Re: Help with WW - 01/17/20 08:13 PM

So your WW makes plans for you in a shared calendar and you just jump up to meet her? That's not how DB'ing works. I would quit looking at that calendar at all, unless it has something pertaining to dealing with kids (which I don't think the 2 of you have if I remember correctly). I would also be busy Sunday night with some GAL activities...
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by mtb1981
So your WW makes plans for you in a shared calendar and you just jump up to meet her? That's not how DB'ing works. I would quit looking at that calendar at all, unless it has something pertaining to dealing with kids (which I don't think the 2 of you have if I remember correctly). I would also be busy Sunday night with some GAL activities...


OS2, you need to listen to my. Dude is a DBing ninja he had the most wayward if WWs, and DB'd his head off. She tried to keep him attached like crazy, but he wasn't having it.

His advice is money because humans want what they can't have. So make her want you by not letting her have you.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 10:34 AM

Thanks guys. Tonight was agreed to so Iíll honour that but I am detached. Tomorrow Iím busy and she is out of luck. I go away next week and I predict she might move back in while Iím away. Should I tell her thatís not a good idea until weíre in a better place? Or let her move back in and take it slow?
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by OS2
Thanks guys. Tonight was agreed to so Iíll honour that but I am detached. Tomorrow Iím busy and she is out of luck. I go away next week and I predict she might move back in while Iím away. Should I tell her thatís not a good idea until weíre in a better place? Or let her move back in and take it slow?


You'll get varying opinions on this. I'm off the opinion you let her move back in, but you don't attach any significance or expectations to it. And you still DB. Even more so than before.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 11:51 AM

W says she needs to talk to me tonight about something serious. She says Iím ignoring her and thatís frustrating her. She says I was asking to work at it but now am distant and not communicating well.

She phoned me presumably because she wasnít getting as much on message as usual.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 12:46 PM

OS, practice: "Been really busy, haven't been ignoring you." Then listen and validate.

I think I figured her out. She doesn't really like living at Mom and Dad's. She's afraid to lose you as plan B so she can move back.

Really study listening and validating.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 01:47 PM

She ain't back. Play it real cool. Stick to your plans for tonight
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
I think I figured her out. She doesn't really like living at Mom and Dad's. She's afraid to lose you as plan B so she can move back.


Well judged, that is definitely a factor. But sheís said several times when she comes back sheís all in (will believe that when I see it) and wouldnít leave again so would be a big move. I saw she went out last night (by location). I suspect it was with OM but no evidence either way. She is supposed to have ended all comm with him so I wonder if thatís what sheís going to tell me. Of course I wonít ask where she was/what she was doing but that would be a big issue if sheís going back on the little thing sheís done so far. Now Iím GAL etc I feel a bit more distant from the situation and I think itís starting to properly sink in how terrible and selfish her behaviour has been.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 03:19 PM

O,

I suggest you cancel the talk tonight because you have plans. No chance sheís having second thoughts, regrets or how selfish sheís being. This is going to take a really long time to play out.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 07:10 PM

I told her that I was available today so let her come over.

BD#2. W had an abortion early Jan which was from the A. Caught early so fortunately a minor procedure but still very difficult to go through which she did alone. She said she was reluctant to break off contact with OM because only the 2 of them knew and she wanted the option of that support. Said she wants me to know everything so she can come back and start again. She still has OM on messaging but said now I know she will finally end all contact. Calmly made it clear how unimpressed I was with that and told her there is no chance of a R without ending all contact. None of this situation feels real TBH. She would like to move back in when Iím away. Regardless of where we are I think itís better to have W home. She commented how she is back to being the chaser and Iím out with a social life while sheís moping at home.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 07:40 PM

I can't stress enough how she should not be coming home right now! She's manipulating you right now if you don't act with strength you will suffer immensely.

Trust your gut it is not real.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
I can't stress enough how she should not be coming home right now! She's manipulating you right now if you don't act with strength you will suffer immensely.

Trust your gut it is not real.

Why would she tell me about the ab or want to come home if she doesnít really want to try and reconcile?
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 09:07 PM

I agree with LH...You JUST found out she had an abortion with the OM and still has him on messaging.

You are going to have deal with the emotions that go along with knowing this and seeing her everyday while you process things is going to be difficult. As well, she still has to come a long way to really prove that she wants you in her life. I know she SAYS this but her ACTIONS aren't yet fully supportive of this...yet.

I highly recommend standing some ground and tell her that YOU need time to process everything and coming home right now isn't the best idea.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Originally Posted by LH19
I can't stress enough how she should not be coming home right now! She's manipulating you right now if you don't act with strength you will suffer immensely.

Trust your gut it is not real.

Why would she tell me about the ab or want to come home if she doesnít really want to try and reconcile?


Maybe she doesn't want to live with the guilt. Maybe she needs more financial support. Maybe she misses you. Maybe she wants a future with you.

It could be many things but again her ACTIONS need to line up fully and I think it's only fair that YOU need some time to process things because she has made some really bad decisions. If she can't give you some time then how serious is she? Sounds to me like maybe more selfish than understanding. You're going to know for the rest of your life that she had an abortion due to her relations with another man while you were still married. That won't be easy.

At the very least OS2 I would recommend telling her now just isn't the best time but you appreciate her sharing and you need to process everything.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 09:14 PM

Also - go back and read your entire thread. It will be easy because you only came here less than a month ago. With everything that's happened in this short time I think you'd be crazy to have her move back in. Way too easy.

You'll find lots of answers there from LH, job and others.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 09:17 PM

Remember in the movie Braveheart when the enemy was charging and he was yelling ďHOLDĒ. Thatís what you need to do.

She just told you she got impregnated by another dude and you want to fuching roll out the red carpet. Does that sound like a strong man or a weak man?

What is likely to happen is sheíll move back in keep seeing the other dude and next thing you know youíll be out of the house.

She HAS to EARN another chance with you!
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/18/20 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
She HAS to EARN another chance with you!


Honest question - what does she need to do to earn it? Obv 0 contact with OM. What else would you be looking for from her? It gets said often on here but if sheís really sorry, is showing affection and wants to communicate Iím not sure what more she could be doing. Iím not sure there are any quick fixes with trust.

Reading through this whole thread so many times Iíve not known the whole story and can piece everything together by reading back. W said tonight I now know everything. I hope thatís true.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/19/20 12:55 AM

Some time to show consistency on her part. Is she willing to put in the work to build the trust back that she destroyed...while living somewhere else.

If you live together it'll be too easy to let things slide back to how they were.

Plus...if she comes back too easily she'll be more likely to do this again in the future.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/19/20 12:56 AM

I get the sense that you're going to let her move back in anyhow...I hope things work our for you but I strongly encourage you to listen to the advice here as these vets have seen many situations play out.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 07:31 AM

Thanks Jac. Wís behaviour has changed - sheís chasing now, inviting me out/over and messaging a lot, says she misses me all the time and wants to come home. When Steve85 was saying youíll know when you know, I know now she wants me back. She hasnít yet formally ended the communication channel with OM though so Iíve said Iím not giving anything until that has been done. W says she struggles with formally ending the friendship with OM even though they ďhardly talkĒ. Iíd like to believe her intentions and I think she will remove OM but sheís putting it off. W said she left home because she wasnít happy, not because of OM (which she would have just kept quiet) and said they were ďjust friendsĒ by that point. I think she finally wants to R.

Iím holding. She still has a way to go but progress is promising. I donít want to rush anything.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 10:09 AM

O,

Look man you are new to this and right now you are very naive. To Steve's point he's means she'll do anything to save the marriage including no contact with OM. Inviting her back home would be like inviting a heroine addict into your house.

She said she left because she wasn't happy. What makes you think she'll be happy now?
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Jac12
Some time to show consistency on her part. Is she willing to put in the work to build the trust back that she destroyed...while living somewhere else.

If you live together it'll be too easy to let things slide back to how they were.

Plus...if she comes back too easily she'll be more likely to do this again in the future.


OS2. Respect is earned. Trust is earned. Self respect is your boundaries wants needs and desires. You are being manipulated. Since you insist on being a glutton for punishment so early in the game before real healing, real thought, real actions and real consideration is being given torwards R. If you are going to set the terms after W had an abortion from another guy. Listen. She's back because her backup plan failed. Not because she's remorseful. Might as well make them good. Test her. You want 24/7 access to her phone on demand, her computer, her phone records, no girls night out. Updates on her whereabouts. Dates once a week. Termination of contact with OM and you want to see it before its done, individual and joint therapy, financial monitoring. Access to phone records, records of all comms apps. Some healthy boundaries for you. You GAL You focus on you, changing and growing and healing. Make her prove just how much she wants to R for the right reasons. Im willing to bet if you make these demands so early on that's she's going to say you are being controlling. If she does? Then open the door and ask her to leave. If it were me personally I would make her work harder and ghost her. Nothing like time and space for people to grow and make them think hard how bad they f@$!ed up. The only way to do that is to allow them to experience that the grass isn't always greener and let their backup plans fail. For you its a win/win. You are always plan a in your actions, words and deeds for you. What do you think would be going on right now if she didn't get caught? People show remorse through their actions when They truly mean it. Not their words. Even then. They have to earn you back.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 12:05 PM

^^^^^^^
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
W had an abortion early Jan which was from the A.


How does she even know that? Were the two of you not having sex? Or did she just think -maybe- it might be his? I can't believe you would still be considering letting her back home after a revelation like this, I mean that is like standing at ground zero for an atomic bomb drop! Don't let her come back right now. Tell her you need time to consider this news and what it means, and tell her that SHE needs COUNSELING!!! Here are the steps you should be thinking about for recon:

1. W expresses interest in recon.
2. W agrees to break all contact with OM, does it in a way that you can see/ hear that she did in fact do it.
3. W gives you all her passwords for her phone, social media accounts and email so that you have full access to confirm she sticks to her promise.
4. W organizes IC for herself and religiously attends.
5. W organizes MC for both of you to help you sort out how to proceed from here.
6. The two of you work out terms for her moving back in.

So far you only have 1, and now you want to jump straight to 6! Please do not do this, it won't work. She will think you are a sucker for taking her back so easily and she will continue to disrespect you.

Quote
She still has OM on messaging but said now I know she will finally end all contact.


That is unacceptable. This conversation should not even be taking place until she has been out of contact with OM for months. Basically she's using OM for leverage to get what she wants from you. "Let me back and maybe I'll end contact with him."

Quote
Calmly made it clear how unimpressed I was with that and told her there is no chance of a R without ending all contact.


Well thank goodness for that!

Quote
She commented how she is back to being the chaser and Iím out with a social life while sheís moping at home.


She expects you to pursue her when she's a lying cheater who had an abortion that she thinks was OM's? Kudos to you for still wanting to save your M but please wake up to what you're dealing with here.


Quote
Wís behaviour has changed - sheís chasing now, inviting me out/over and messaging a lot, says she misses me all the time and wants to come home.


Let her come home and you lose all leverage to make her do all the hard work she needs to do (steps 2-5 above). So far she's done nothing, no work on herself at all.

Quote
I know now she wants me back. She hasnít yet formally ended the communication channel with OM


Then you don't know sh** my friend. Sorry to be blunt, but I think you need that right now. She is manipulating you to get what she wants (move home). She needs to change her ways before you should consider reconciling, and that will take a lot of hard work on herself.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 01:04 PM

OS2,

Agree with all these posters...she still hasn't ended communication with OM and you think she's ready to R?

THink about that.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 05:28 PM

Thank you all for the comments. I really appreciate extra perspectives.
Originally Posted by LH19
Inviting her back home would be like inviting a heroine addict into your house. She said she left because she wasn't happy. What makes you think she'll be happy now?


I agree, she can't come back until she proves she isn't in contact any longer with OM, end of. And AnotherStander - I know I don't know anything. There could be anything else going on for all I know. And she is still reluctant to end comm which is not a good sign but she knows what the score is regarding any R.

W's done a terrible thing and I'm not over it. And it'll take considerable time before we can get past it. And it's been a matter of weeks since I found out (and the extent of the details), I couldn't possibly be over it and ready to carry on as normal. I don't yet know if I will be able to entirely forgive her. It doesn't excuse her actions AT ALL, but I do know we both stopped trying at our M. If/when we get to a position where we can R I do think the M (in isolation of the A) could be better and stronger as a result of this wake up call for both.

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
You want 24/7 access to her phone on demand, her computer, her phone records, no girls night out. Updates on her whereabouts.... Access to phone records, records of all comms apps.


Wouldn't this be starting again with the wrong intentions? Treat her as a kid and ground her? She has destroyed my trust but I don't want a marriage where I have to do all that, and don't want a W who isn't going to cheat again *just* because she doesn't want to get caught. I want a W that isn't going to cheat again because she doesn't want to (and doesn't want to lose me which she would). Steve85 said it above ^^ and I think I agree with his approach. It doesn't show much confidence in yourself to be checking up like that. I'm a hell of a catch and if she did anything like this again I would not be trying to make it work again (particularly if we were in a better place).

Originally Posted by IHCLACS
People show remorse through their actions when They truly mean it. Not their words. Even then. They have to earn you back.


Thanks, agreed.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander
That is unacceptable. This conversation should not even be taking place until she has been out of contact with OM for months. Basically she's using OM for leverage to get what she wants from you. "Let me back and maybe I'll end contact with him."


Yes, I take this comment to heart. I won't be leveraged like that. Months seems a long time.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 05:35 PM

Here's the condensed version: you're desperate and women can smell that stink from a mile away.

Be strong, be smart, don't be so emotionally driven.
Posted By: Jac12

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 05:38 PM

OS2 - having access to her phone/passwords on social media doesn't mean that you have to check. It just means that she's willing to be transparent as she EARNS that trust back.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jac12
OS2 - having access to her phone/passwords on social media doesn't mean that you have to check. It just means that she's willing to be transparent as she EARNS that trust back.


Thanks Jac12 that's what I was trying to convey. Effort, initiative, willingness. The person who has blatantly and intentionally done something wrong should be the one to make the effort and willingness to comply. If it were me? I would just start over. It would take a lot of effort and hoops for them to jump through to earn my trust back. Don't care what reason, justification, of narrative they present for why they did what they did. But that's just me. Been there done that bought the t shirt too many times over.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Help with WW - 01/20/20 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by OS2

I agree, she can't come back until she proves she isn't in contact any longer with OM, end of. And AnotherStander - I know I don't know anything. There could be anything else going on for all I know. And she is still reluctant to end comm which is not a good sign but she knows what the score is regarding any R.


Good, I'm glad you're keeping things in perspective!

Quote
W's done a terrible thing and I'm not over it. And it'll take considerable time before we can get past it.


Very sorry you're going through this. What a gut punch that must have been! Was there any remorse from her over this, or was it more like "I just wanted to disclose all this so I can go ahead and move back in." It should be the former, but sounds like the latter.

Quote
Wouldn't this be starting again with the wrong intentions? Treat her as a kid and ground her? She has destroyed my trust but I don't want a marriage where I have to do all that, and don't want a W who isn't going to cheat again *just* because she doesn't want to get caught.


That is an understandable reaction, and one we've heard many times before. But here's the thing- she completely destroyed your trust and she has to be COMPLETELY transparent to earn it back. As Jac said this isn't about you checking all her accounts every hour, it's her making a good faith gesture that she will be open with you and allow you to check for your own peace of mind. It is the least she can do. Believe me, if a cheater is truly remorseful they will gladly allow the LBS access to everything to earn their trust back.

By the way, my XW came to me after we had been married about 5 years and disclosed she had racked up 2k in credit card debt. She knew how much I hated CC debt and avoided it like the plague, so she was really guilt-ridden about it. She offered to funnel all purchases through me and have me "police" her to show how remorseful she was. I told her that no, I didn't want to be her parent, and I trusted her to follow the right path. We worked together to pay the debt off and went on from there. Almost immediately she started accruing debt again and did not say one word about it. It went on another 8 or 9 years and was around 15k by the time I found out. Here's the moral to the story- you simply cannot just sweep it all under the rug and tell her you trust her to change, because she won't. There MUST be accountability from now on.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 01:00 PM

Quick update. W has deleted her social media and wants to come to see me and formally remove OM communication. She has suggested MC too. Iíve asked her to organise it. Says she is scared of coming back and me not being able to get past it or telling her to leave after trying to take her back. Iíve said I feel our R is moving too fast given how raw it all is sheís suggested I have some space and weíll work it out at a more relaxed pace. Positive steps. W says she misses me/us and thinks about me all the time.
Posted By: IHCLACS

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 01:10 PM

Sounds like you're handling it at the right way and at the right pace on your terms
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Quick update. W has deleted her social media and wants to come to see me and formally remove OM communication. She has suggested MC too. Iíve asked her to organise it. Says she is scared of coming back and me not being able to get past it or telling her to leave after trying to take her back. Iíve said I feel our R is moving too fast given how raw it all is sheís suggested I have some space and weíll work it out at a more relaxed pace. Positive steps. W says she misses me/us and thinks about me all the time.


Certainly those are positive steps. What makes me leery is that you haven't witnessed the withdrawal from OM. In both of my sitches that was there. If you haven't seen that then it means that likely she hasn't ended it.

WWs like to take things underground. I've mentioned, I thought, in your thread before that the secretive nature of hidden As are one of the romantic draws to them. "I have a secret" is something that a lot of people get off on. It is what makes an illicit addictive. Many As have been ruined by the LBS finding out, or it being made public. Sometimes, the WS will make it look like things are ending, when in reality they are just going deeper undercover. WWs are notorious for wanting their cake and eating it too.

So be vigilant. Trust but verify. Make her do all the work. But until you see her go through A withdrawals, as hard as it is to see your W hurting over another guy, be very wary.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Quick update. W has deleted her social media and wants to come to see me and formally remove OM communication. She has suggested MC too.


Great, I would suggest you allow it but make it clear to her that this is only one step in the process towards reconciliation, not the only step! As Steve said, she is going to grieve the loss of OM and be tempted to reach out to him again. So the biggest tests are yet to come. Heroin addicts will often say they are done and ready for rehab and they are ready to turn over a new leaf.... right after they've had a hit. But after a day without a hit? Oh then they just need one more hit and THEN they'll be ready for rehab. The longer they go without the worse things get and the more convinced they become that THEY MUST HAVE ONE MORE HIT until they hit bottom and start working on themselves for real. It is much the same recovering from an OP addiction. She needs to go through all that before the recon can really get off the ground.

Quote
Iíve asked her to organise it.


Perfect.

Quote
Says she is scared of coming back and me not being able to get past it or telling her to leave after trying to take her back.


Don't try to convince her otherwise, she SHOULD be scared! Just listen and validate. "That sounds frustrating, is that how you feel? I can understand why that would be difficult for you to go through."

Quote
Iíve said I feel our R is moving too fast given how raw it all is sheís suggested I have some space and weíll work it out at a more relaxed pace. Positive steps. W says she misses me/us and thinks about me all the time.


Great, all good signs and you are handling things really well. Nice job!
Posted By: jstrembr

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 02:29 PM

OS2, I don't have much advice, just wanted to comment that I am really following your thread. I'm hoping my thread goes in this direction at some point in the future. Thank you to all the veterans posting advice here!
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 03:55 PM

Thanks all. Still staying sceptical but feeling better about the direction of travel. Should I be approaching things any differently now things are beginning to turn or should I be sticking to my guns and continue DB'ing? I'm still fun, GAL etc but I'm engaging in more and more conversation because we're both finding that helpful but there is mainly a lot of validation and listening. I'm aware OM being cut off may leave an E hole where he has been - should I aim to fill it while she transitions or let her get over it herself? W maintains it is not a big deal, just that she is losing a friend and supportive person to talk to but I will never be sure of that. MC was her idea - never yet mentioned by me as I didn't think we were ready - which I was pleased about. W also said she is worried about what my terms might be (even though I have mentioned a few things since I found out), which suggests she thinks there is some way to go.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Thanks all. Still staying sceptical but feeling better about the direction of travel. Should I be approaching things any differently now things are beginning to turn or should I be sticking to my guns and continue DB'ing? I'm still fun, GAL etc but I'm engaging in more and more conversation because we're both finding that helpful but there is mainly a lot of validation and listening. I'm aware OM being cut off may leave an E hole where he has been - should I aim to fill it while she transitions or let her get over it herself? W maintains it is not a big deal, just that she is losing a friend and supportive person to talk to but I will never be sure of that. MC was her idea - never yet mentioned by me as I didn't think we were ready - which I was pleased about. W also said she is worried about what my terms might be (even though I have mentioned a few things since I found out), which suggests she thinks there is some way to go.


Let me reword your question and you can tell us if it makes logical sense:

"Hey guys, I've been doing X, Y, and Z and its been working. Should I stop doing X, Y, and Z?"

As far as the empty hole.......you cannot fill that. Sorry. She has to go through the loss.
Posted By: OS2

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by Steve85
"Hey guys, I've been doing X, Y, and Z and its been working. Should I stop doing X, Y, and Z?"

Thanks, well put.

Originally Posted by Steve85
As far as the empty hole.......you cannot fill that. Sorry. She has to go through the loss.

Thanks, should have been able to guess that but makes sense.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by OS2
Should I be approaching things any differently now things are beginning to turn or should I be sticking to my guns and continue DB'ing?


Steve kind of nailed it on his response grin Just keep Sandi's rules in mind. You don't want to be cold and indifferent, but you want to continue your "loving" detachment.

Quote
I'm still fun, GAL etc but I'm engaging in more and more conversation because we're both finding that helpful but there is mainly a lot of validation and listening.


I think that's fine. Think of moving towards reconciling as being like turning up a rheostat rather than flipping a switch from off to on. You slowly ramp it up.

Quote
I'm aware OM being cut off may leave an E hole where he has been - should I aim to fill it while she transitions or let her get over it herself?


No, you do not want to try to out-OM the OM. YOU are the better alternative. YOU are the prize. She needs to pursue you and do the work. We always talk about "keeping the way home paved and smooth." Note that we don't say "drive to the end of the road and pick her up and drive her back." She has to make the journey herself, you just make sure you don't leave any roadblocks in her way. Stay detached.

EDIT- this is page 11, time for a new thread! Make a link to this thread in the first post of your new one and post a link to your new thread in your last post in this one.

Posted By: job

Re: Help with WW - 01/21/20 08:36 PM

New Thread:

Help with WW #2
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