"Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/27/19 07:23 PM
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/27/19 09:11 PM
I like the advice "hoosjim" gives about going dark. I need to go dark all the way around. Part of my problem is calling my mom and her parents calling me to discuss the situation. I've probably told all of them way to much information. This has only made my situation worse.
I understand that I am falling in line with what Curtis7 has done in his situation. Being manipulative or passive-aggressive and making her isolated to my family and her family. Also the boys know way to much and they are beginning to resent her as well. She has mentioned that in the past. I know this isn't all on me however, as she is in another town 2 hours away for the weekend and our youngest son is sick. I carried him to the Dr. this morning so he is living through this as well.
He doesn't like the fact that she is out partying and obviously she will blame me for him feeling this way. I say that is BS and just a way of justifying her actions. Anytime these things happen it becomes a mess all the way around. I'm just blessed my sons are older.
I understand that I am falling in line with what Curtis7 has done in his situation. Being manipulative or passive-aggressive and making her isolated to my family and her family. Also the boys know way to much and they are beginning to resent her as well. She has mentioned that in the past. I know this isn't all on me however, as she is in another town 2 hours away for the weekend and our youngest son is sick. I carried him to the Dr. this morning so he is living through this as well.
He doesn't like the fact that she is out partying and obviously she will blame me for him feeling this way. I say that is BS and just a way of justifying her actions. Anytime these things happen it becomes a mess all the way around. I'm just blessed my sons are older.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/27/19 09:18 PM
Yeah avoid her at all costs and protect your kids. Get your ducks in a row and get ready for a battle. I suspect she will file after the New Year.
Stay strong B!
Stay strong B!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/27/19 10:44 PM
Lots and lots of similarities I see between your sitch and mine and between our WWs. Unfortunately, by my understanding, your W's affair accelerated to become more involved than did mine... and I am a firm believer, based on personal experience and observation and from following situations on these boards, that the more involved/intimate an affair becomes, the harder and more time consuming it becomes for a WAS to "recover" (assuming she does ever recover). Right now your WW thinks she has found her "soulmate" and she is DEEP in Fantasyland. She gets her OM for the fantasy and the mystery and adventure without any of the "drag" and routine that is real life-- that part of her life is with you. You basically have no chance of R-ing under those circumstances. My MR survived and emerged in the timeframe it did only because my W never threw herself fully into the A... close but not quite... and because she remained tethered, at times only by a thread, to her faith and to the family ideals in which she was raised-- she really feared losing her boys, aged 17 and 18 at the time. Even then, two things had to happen without which she would never have come back:
1) She had to start seeing me as a man only a fool would leave (required major GALing and 180-ing...and i mean MAJOR...our MR was characterized by severe neglect and me having become a complete slug, with the additional challenge of my W being an extremely attractive/desirable woman-- she is 50 and still looks a hot 30-- with alot of options besides me), and
2) She had to fear losing me and our family.
Your W is not close to experiencing either of those things, imho. And she won't, until you do the requisite work on yourself.
When you say she is "staying with a friend out of town", I'm assuming you mean that she is or likely is seeing OM?
1) She had to start seeing me as a man only a fool would leave (required major GALing and 180-ing...and i mean MAJOR...our MR was characterized by severe neglect and me having become a complete slug, with the additional challenge of my W being an extremely attractive/desirable woman-- she is 50 and still looks a hot 30-- with alot of options besides me), and
2) She had to fear losing me and our family.
Your W is not close to experiencing either of those things, imho. And she won't, until you do the requisite work on yourself.
When you say she is "staying with a friend out of town", I'm assuming you mean that she is or likely is seeing OM?
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/27/19 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
When you say she is "staying with a friend out of town", I'm assuming you mean that she is or likely is seeing OM?
No she is with her best friend who has been through a similar situation. The OM I am assuming has his kids this weekend and that is why she wants to go out of town IMO. I appreciate your thoughts and I have a lot of respect for your advice. It doesn't give me a lot of hope other than I know I have to "let her go". I know she has become very involved as they spent everyday for nearly 10 hours out of the day together at her job during the summer. There were no kids at schools so they had free range. He was buying her lunch, decorating her classroom, and heck he even gave her the promotion she had been dreaming of for years
I can be happy on my own. I just really hate it for my son but she will have to see the demage eventually when he is having to be shared or custody issues. Our son can be difficult so in a way she may be fine with him living with me. Next year the plan was for him to be in high school where I am coaching. That would put him with me everyday for the next 4 years. She has mentioned in the past she gets lonely and she wouldn't have anyone once he come to school with me. Thanks again "hoojim" for your advice and stating it plainly for me to see that this process will take a long time. I do believe that separation will be the key.
If I had it to do over with again I probably would have kicked her out upon first discovery. That is putting her things in the garage and telling her to leave.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Yeah avoid her at all costs and protect your kids. Get your ducks in a row and get ready for a battle. I suspect she will file after the New Year.
Stay strong B!
Stay strong B!
She will file online if she does. Everything 50/50. My lawyer said that was best and he is a bulldog. If he thought I could get anything else then he would have told me when we met. I really wouldn't mind having full custody of my son. I believe he will choose to live with me once she moves in with the OM.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 04:34 AM
One more thing I feel it is important for me to emphasize, which is the importance of GAL and 180s.
Initially, I should point out that I am a person of strong Christian faith and i remain convinced to this day, due particularly to the way things developed in my sitch-- the manner and timing with which certain people came into or BACK into my life and the manner and timing in which certain revelations came to me--that there was divine providence and grace at work in my situation... It's really the only explanation for how some of these things went down. Not to mention how both my heart and my W's hearts seem to have been "turned" at points when we had to all appearances committed to leaving the MR. Speaking just for myself I was disgusted with her... Was finally completely comfortable (and even a bit excited) with the idea of being on my own... Had some other clear "prospects"... Young and attractive ones at that... Had reconnected with friends and made new ones, etc. One kid out of the house and the other on the verge so "collateral damage" somewhat minimized. In other words no real reason for me to turn back. And yet, when my MC/IC brokered a meetup between us a couple of weeks later in a "neutral" location (small town about 45 mins south of here), ostensibly just to try to make the breakup more amicable, and I first saw her walk around the corner... My heart just changed and I knew she was sorry for what she'd done and i knew I wanted to take her back. And she did all the right things from there... And here we are.
So, when I talk about how I did this or that or my W acted such and so way or that it is important to do ________, just know that this is where I am coming from. At the end of the day, I just think that this is where we were meant to be, and that everything we went through, all the steps and missteps, was necessary, and in fact the only path we could have taken to get where we got, so ALL GLORY TO HIM, and not tooting my own horn on any of this...
ALL THAT BEING SAID... this divine providence, or whatever, definitely manifested itself in certain ways, and there were certain "truths" or paths that I was blessed to discover that contributed to the final outcome. And one aspect of my sitch that I think does NOT come across very well in my threads is the importance and value of a dynamic and strong GAL/180 program. I tended not to talk very much about my GAL and 180s all that much in my threads (and as a result I even got, mistakenly, called out more than once for neglecting my GAL) for the simple reason that, from a very early point in time, I felt that I was doing an outstanding job in those areas and didn't need any help/advice concerning them. Even though I did struggle with true and consistent detachment, did often find myself spinning as a result of my WWs behavior, and, like most LBSs on here, made plenty of mistakes in my interactions, my GAL/180 game was consistently strong. At age 50, I got into the best physical shape of my life, upgraded my style/wardrobe and started dressing and grooming like a man trying to attract a woman instead of like a "dad". Never left the house even to go to the gym that I didn't look my best (and boy did she notice... "Why do you always get dressed so nice and put on body spray before you go to the gym, now?" Me: no answer, smiling). I rediscovered my faith, started attending a new, vibrant church with a younger, very active congregation. Went out of my way to contact old but dear friends that I had mostly lost touch with. Spent some weekends away from home, visiting them, and being vague about my whereabouts when talking to her. When I did talk to her, spoke in a confident, and sometimes even flirtatous manner, but never expected anything and never over pursued. Re-committed to some of my passions, particularly the outdoors, and took up new activities like kayaking. Stepped a bit outside of my comfort zone, establishing an outgoing social media presence (which, by the way, also helped her to see the new me) and venturing out to local bars and such to see live music, sometimes even on my own, becoming a regular at one neighborhood spot. I got a tattoo-- because I'd wanted one for a while and now didn't really care "what she thought" (she professes not to like them). As a result of all this, I started getting attention, some from strangers of the opposite sex, but some from common friends and neighbors... Which, trust me, can making an impression: hearing things like "Wow, I saw Hoosjim at ________ the other day and he looked GREAT" or walking into your favorite pub and seeing a gorgeous 20-something hanging on your every word makes a BIG difference in how a WW ultimately views you. It's all about being the absolute best you can be... And my relationship does not emerge from the darkness without that happening.
Other GAL tips-- I've always been mechanically inclined, and "handy", but had become slack and lazy in this regard. I re-committed to "doing for myself" in terms of home and car repairs. And I'm not talking about the "gay butler" routine that s lot of LBHs do when they are trying to "nice her back" and they start doing all the housework... I'm talking about tinkering and repairing and using tools to fix broken things that you might otherwise have to call a contractor for. It's called "being capable", and if you think it doesn't make an impression on a woman I've got news for you...it does... She basically raped me a few weeks back when I was in the kitchen repairing the dishwasher.
Here's a tip: You'll know you're GALing and 180-ing WELL when you're W or XW (If it gets to that point) asks you " Who ARE you?"
GAL, GAL, GAL. And if it doesn't help you reclaim your W, it will certainly help you find someone better (and, most importantly, find a better YOU).
Hang in there man! Have a happy, and successful, New Year!
Initially, I should point out that I am a person of strong Christian faith and i remain convinced to this day, due particularly to the way things developed in my sitch-- the manner and timing with which certain people came into or BACK into my life and the manner and timing in which certain revelations came to me--that there was divine providence and grace at work in my situation... It's really the only explanation for how some of these things went down. Not to mention how both my heart and my W's hearts seem to have been "turned" at points when we had to all appearances committed to leaving the MR. Speaking just for myself I was disgusted with her... Was finally completely comfortable (and even a bit excited) with the idea of being on my own... Had some other clear "prospects"... Young and attractive ones at that... Had reconnected with friends and made new ones, etc. One kid out of the house and the other on the verge so "collateral damage" somewhat minimized. In other words no real reason for me to turn back. And yet, when my MC/IC brokered a meetup between us a couple of weeks later in a "neutral" location (small town about 45 mins south of here), ostensibly just to try to make the breakup more amicable, and I first saw her walk around the corner... My heart just changed and I knew she was sorry for what she'd done and i knew I wanted to take her back. And she did all the right things from there... And here we are.
So, when I talk about how I did this or that or my W acted such and so way or that it is important to do ________, just know that this is where I am coming from. At the end of the day, I just think that this is where we were meant to be, and that everything we went through, all the steps and missteps, was necessary, and in fact the only path we could have taken to get where we got, so ALL GLORY TO HIM, and not tooting my own horn on any of this...
ALL THAT BEING SAID... this divine providence, or whatever, definitely manifested itself in certain ways, and there were certain "truths" or paths that I was blessed to discover that contributed to the final outcome. And one aspect of my sitch that I think does NOT come across very well in my threads is the importance and value of a dynamic and strong GAL/180 program. I tended not to talk very much about my GAL and 180s all that much in my threads (and as a result I even got, mistakenly, called out more than once for neglecting my GAL) for the simple reason that, from a very early point in time, I felt that I was doing an outstanding job in those areas and didn't need any help/advice concerning them. Even though I did struggle with true and consistent detachment, did often find myself spinning as a result of my WWs behavior, and, like most LBSs on here, made plenty of mistakes in my interactions, my GAL/180 game was consistently strong. At age 50, I got into the best physical shape of my life, upgraded my style/wardrobe and started dressing and grooming like a man trying to attract a woman instead of like a "dad". Never left the house even to go to the gym that I didn't look my best (and boy did she notice... "Why do you always get dressed so nice and put on body spray before you go to the gym, now?" Me: no answer, smiling). I rediscovered my faith, started attending a new, vibrant church with a younger, very active congregation. Went out of my way to contact old but dear friends that I had mostly lost touch with. Spent some weekends away from home, visiting them, and being vague about my whereabouts when talking to her. When I did talk to her, spoke in a confident, and sometimes even flirtatous manner, but never expected anything and never over pursued. Re-committed to some of my passions, particularly the outdoors, and took up new activities like kayaking. Stepped a bit outside of my comfort zone, establishing an outgoing social media presence (which, by the way, also helped her to see the new me) and venturing out to local bars and such to see live music, sometimes even on my own, becoming a regular at one neighborhood spot. I got a tattoo-- because I'd wanted one for a while and now didn't really care "what she thought" (she professes not to like them). As a result of all this, I started getting attention, some from strangers of the opposite sex, but some from common friends and neighbors... Which, trust me, can making an impression: hearing things like "Wow, I saw Hoosjim at ________ the other day and he looked GREAT" or walking into your favorite pub and seeing a gorgeous 20-something hanging on your every word makes a BIG difference in how a WW ultimately views you. It's all about being the absolute best you can be... And my relationship does not emerge from the darkness without that happening.
Other GAL tips-- I've always been mechanically inclined, and "handy", but had become slack and lazy in this regard. I re-committed to "doing for myself" in terms of home and car repairs. And I'm not talking about the "gay butler" routine that s lot of LBHs do when they are trying to "nice her back" and they start doing all the housework... I'm talking about tinkering and repairing and using tools to fix broken things that you might otherwise have to call a contractor for. It's called "being capable", and if you think it doesn't make an impression on a woman I've got news for you...it does... She basically raped me a few weeks back when I was in the kitchen repairing the dishwasher.
Here's a tip: You'll know you're GALing and 180-ing WELL when you're W or XW (If it gets to that point) asks you " Who ARE you?"
GAL, GAL, GAL. And if it doesn't help you reclaim your W, it will certainly help you find someone better (and, most importantly, find a better YOU).
Hang in there man! Have a happy, and successful, New Year!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 04:59 AM
Also, wrt your sons... Do NOT feel guilty. Your son's are old enough to understand what is going on, and You do not owe her any protective lies or cover stories. While you obviously shouldn't be actively trashing her or trying to poison her relationship with them, you also shouldn't be going out of your way to hide the truth from them or cover for her... If they ask you something the truth is never the wrong answer. At the end of the day she is a big girl and chose this course of action... And actions have consequences. One of the natural consequences of this sort of behavior is the damaging ofone's relationships with one's children, and you certainly do not owe her any protection in that regard.
And should she ever object to the kids knowing the truth, your response should simply be "What, you want me to lie to our children?"
To which her response might be "why wouldn't you just want everyone to be happy"
To which, in turn, your response would be "so you expect them to be happy that their family is being broken up?"
And should she ever object to the kids knowing the truth, your response should simply be "What, you want me to lie to our children?"
To which her response might be "why wouldn't you just want everyone to be happy"
To which, in turn, your response would be "so you expect them to be happy that their family is being broken up?"
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 05:52 AM
“Hoosjim”
Should I GAL and do 180’s even as I go dark. For example, she has texted me tonight but I have not replied. I just need to really get involved with my job. I’ve been doing that and I work long hours. She doesn’t mind this as it will give her an opportunity to have her rendezvous with him at his new home in town.
I’m having a hard time GAL and doing 180’s when I know she is up to no good. Eventually I will need to file for divorce to keep my sanity. You see as long as I’m staying gone with work, her living in the home, using the same checking account etc... I believe she will just continue to become more and more secretive and deceptive with the OM.
If I file and begin to move on she will have to decide whether or not she will sign the papers. I’m still hoping she will move out. She wants to but her parents will not have her because she is involved with the OM. Heck she got pissed about the real estate agent coming over. She then claimed we can sell it for what the tax accessor’s office has it appraised for. Another reason she didn’t want her coming over is because we know her personally. She would see all my wife’s stuff crammed into the office bedroom that has no closet. Lol.
She went to Walmart to get a hanging rack for her clothes. “Hoosjim”, do you think I should sit tight and just ignore her and cut off all communication with her except in regards to the children?
Should I GAL and do 180’s even as I go dark. For example, she has texted me tonight but I have not replied. I just need to really get involved with my job. I’ve been doing that and I work long hours. She doesn’t mind this as it will give her an opportunity to have her rendezvous with him at his new home in town.
I’m having a hard time GAL and doing 180’s when I know she is up to no good. Eventually I will need to file for divorce to keep my sanity. You see as long as I’m staying gone with work, her living in the home, using the same checking account etc... I believe she will just continue to become more and more secretive and deceptive with the OM.
If I file and begin to move on she will have to decide whether or not she will sign the papers. I’m still hoping she will move out. She wants to but her parents will not have her because she is involved with the OM. Heck she got pissed about the real estate agent coming over. She then claimed we can sell it for what the tax accessor’s office has it appraised for. Another reason she didn’t want her coming over is because we know her personally. She would see all my wife’s stuff crammed into the office bedroom that has no closet. Lol.
She went to Walmart to get a hanging rack for her clothes. “Hoosjim”, do you think I should sit tight and just ignore her and cut off all communication with her except in regards to the children?
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 05:56 AM
Or am I thinking of this in the wrong way. Knowing all the physical contact they are having and her telling me the details as she did the other night just doesn’t sit well with me. I’m really struggling with whether or not I could ever truly forgive her. The information I know is just probably way to much. I mean they were having sex nearly 4 days a week the whole month of August. The 1st month school started back. They even joked about how they had more sex now that school started back than they did during the summer.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 06:55 AM
GAL and 180s are your constant and your reality. They are for YOU regardless of your marital status and you should be doing them AT ALL TIMES.
Because they are for YOU, you need to be doing them EVEN IF you "go dark" with your WW. If you are doing them right, and continuously and sincerely (I.e. for YOU and NOT just to make an impression on your WW), they WILL come to your W's attention... As will the fact you are ignoring her. You are both parents of your children, so she WILL still be exposed to you and what you're doing even if you are "dark". Plus, You live in a small community, so others will notice the changes in you and relay them to her even if she doesn't see first hand. Finally, it can be good for her NOT to know what you are up to-- WW: "hey phnix, I came by the house last night, where were you?" You (smiling): "out". Be mysterious and evasive. And confident.
If she refuses to leave you need to be ready to put the house on the market. Don't know that I would be the one filing for divorce, leave that up to her. But she is not respecting your boundary so she needs to be out of your house. If she won't leave the one you have, that means you sell it and buy a smaller one for you and the kids.
Absolutely separate your finances, immediately. Cancel all joint cards, or at least have her taken off the ones on which you are the primary. Same with checking accounts. You will not allow your money to be used in supporting her affair or her ability to carry on that affair (boundary).
Reread the DB book sections on Beyond the Last Resort because that's where you are. Also Sandi's Rules.
And yes, you do need to ask yourself if you could ever take her back Knowing what you know.
Because they are for YOU, you need to be doing them EVEN IF you "go dark" with your WW. If you are doing them right, and continuously and sincerely (I.e. for YOU and NOT just to make an impression on your WW), they WILL come to your W's attention... As will the fact you are ignoring her. You are both parents of your children, so she WILL still be exposed to you and what you're doing even if you are "dark". Plus, You live in a small community, so others will notice the changes in you and relay them to her even if she doesn't see first hand. Finally, it can be good for her NOT to know what you are up to-- WW: "hey phnix, I came by the house last night, where were you?" You (smiling): "out". Be mysterious and evasive. And confident.
If she refuses to leave you need to be ready to put the house on the market. Don't know that I would be the one filing for divorce, leave that up to her. But she is not respecting your boundary so she needs to be out of your house. If she won't leave the one you have, that means you sell it and buy a smaller one for you and the kids.
Absolutely separate your finances, immediately. Cancel all joint cards, or at least have her taken off the ones on which you are the primary. Same with checking accounts. You will not allow your money to be used in supporting her affair or her ability to carry on that affair (boundary).
Reread the DB book sections on Beyond the Last Resort because that's where you are. Also Sandi's Rules.
And yes, you do need to ask yourself if you could ever take her back Knowing what you know.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 04:09 PM
“Hoosjim”
Thanks for the advice. I will move forward in that direction. I need to be more involved in church and maybe hanging out with friends. I would love to go to a concert, skydiving, and possibly some other things. I’m probably going to try and play less golf due to that being a major reason of neglect to her and my boys. I haven’t really enjoyed playing much lately anyways.
Thanks for the advice. I will move forward in that direction. I need to be more involved in church and maybe hanging out with friends. I would love to go to a concert, skydiving, and possibly some other things. I’m probably going to try and play less golf due to that being a major reason of neglect to her and my boys. I haven’t really enjoyed playing much lately anyways.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 08:35 PM
"hoosjim"
Did you read any books? LH said 3% man by Corey Wayne and I just started reading it. I need some other books to read. I have become a reader in all of this chaos going on in my life.
I am going to start back working out on Monday. Buying some casual clothes to wear. Everything I have is athletic wear. Going to get out and stay away as much as possible. Probably carry my son to some college basketball games and do other things with him. He doesn't like to get out and I believe this is partly because of some of the problems we are having at home.
Did you read any books? LH said 3% man by Corey Wayne and I just started reading it. I need some other books to read. I have become a reader in all of this chaos going on in my life.
I am going to start back working out on Monday. Buying some casual clothes to wear. Everything I have is athletic wear. Going to get out and stay away as much as possible. Probably carry my son to some college basketball games and do other things with him. He doesn't like to get out and I believe this is partly because of some of the problems we are having at home.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 11:11 PM
First and foremost, keep referring back to the DBing books until you know them by heart. Also Sandi2's rules for interactions with WWs.
Second, and you may shake your head, here, but learn/read as much as you can about "male dominance" (no, not the BDSM stuff, but rather the stuff about being a dominant, alpha male. This is NOT a suggestion to be an arrogant jerk or an abuser of women, but, rather, a cool, confident, assertive (but not obnoxious) LEADER. You'll probably run across some dreck when you are googling this, so you'll have to use some judgment. Also, alot of the basic stuff from the "pick up " community incorporates similar thinking and can be adapted. And this is not about being phony or putting on a personal... Even the most shy introverted guy out there can benefit from conversational tools (eye contact, etc) and learn to enjoy the manly and subtle art of banter/flirting. It makes social engagements and even just being out WAY more fun... And I am not talking about womanizing or sleeping around alot, but rather the ability to enjoy fun, light conversation that will be enjoyable for you and for others and will result in people liking and remembering you. Also, if you come from a relationship or marriage that is challenged or has been challenged in terms of intimacy or a SSM, learning or relearning, "the art of touch with a woman" (and Google just that) can be very worthwhile. There is a natural, social progression to touch, the knowledge of which can be very helpful in re-establishing intimacy with a woman with whom you have lost it, or, alternately, establishing a new relationship with someone new, if your life heads in that direction. In the pickup community it is known as "kino" touch. studying this was invaluable to me as I was trying to re-establish intimacy with my wife.I had already looked it up and then reading on it some on my own, when I was surprised to find that my MC/IC (who is also a registered sex therapist... Did I mention that she may be the best MC/C ever? Lol) preached a similar progression. All these things like this will make you more attractive as a man, and will, in turn make you more confident, self-assured, and, at the end of the day, happy.
"The Married Man Sex Life Primer" is also a good resource that incorporate some of the stuff, and which I have seen others recommend on other threads here.the content is actually useful whether or not you were talking about your wife, or other women, or even just the way you comport yourself in general.
Generally speaking:. Confident, assertive, but without being a jerk, fun, mysterious, etc
One of the best tips from all of this stuff you will find is very similar 2 one of the underlying tenets of the DB method-- Pursuit and Distance. P&D works on many levels and across many different time frames. It can be useful in establishing and maintaining re-establishing a long-term relationship, we can also be useful in establishing initial interest over the course of just one evening with someone you have just met. Might sound crazy, but it definitely works.
At the end of the day, though, the best thing that you can do, are durable self improvement initiatives. fitness and Faith were my to bedrocks and probably did more for me than anything else.
Hope this is all helpful
Second, and you may shake your head, here, but learn/read as much as you can about "male dominance" (no, not the BDSM stuff, but rather the stuff about being a dominant, alpha male. This is NOT a suggestion to be an arrogant jerk or an abuser of women, but, rather, a cool, confident, assertive (but not obnoxious) LEADER. You'll probably run across some dreck when you are googling this, so you'll have to use some judgment. Also, alot of the basic stuff from the "pick up " community incorporates similar thinking and can be adapted. And this is not about being phony or putting on a personal... Even the most shy introverted guy out there can benefit from conversational tools (eye contact, etc) and learn to enjoy the manly and subtle art of banter/flirting. It makes social engagements and even just being out WAY more fun... And I am not talking about womanizing or sleeping around alot, but rather the ability to enjoy fun, light conversation that will be enjoyable for you and for others and will result in people liking and remembering you. Also, if you come from a relationship or marriage that is challenged or has been challenged in terms of intimacy or a SSM, learning or relearning, "the art of touch with a woman" (and Google just that) can be very worthwhile. There is a natural, social progression to touch, the knowledge of which can be very helpful in re-establishing intimacy with a woman with whom you have lost it, or, alternately, establishing a new relationship with someone new, if your life heads in that direction. In the pickup community it is known as "kino" touch. studying this was invaluable to me as I was trying to re-establish intimacy with my wife.I had already looked it up and then reading on it some on my own, when I was surprised to find that my MC/IC (who is also a registered sex therapist... Did I mention that she may be the best MC/C ever? Lol) preached a similar progression. All these things like this will make you more attractive as a man, and will, in turn make you more confident, self-assured, and, at the end of the day, happy.
"The Married Man Sex Life Primer" is also a good resource that incorporate some of the stuff, and which I have seen others recommend on other threads here.the content is actually useful whether or not you were talking about your wife, or other women, or even just the way you comport yourself in general.
Generally speaking:. Confident, assertive, but without being a jerk, fun, mysterious, etc
One of the best tips from all of this stuff you will find is very similar 2 one of the underlying tenets of the DB method-- Pursuit and Distance. P&D works on many levels and across many different time frames. It can be useful in establishing and maintaining re-establishing a long-term relationship, we can also be useful in establishing initial interest over the course of just one evening with someone you have just met. Might sound crazy, but it definitely works.
At the end of the day, though, the best thing that you can do, are durable self improvement initiatives. fitness and Faith were my to bedrocks and probably did more for me than anything else.
Hope this is all helpful
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/28/19 11:43 PM
"hoosjim"
This is some awesome stuff. I will print it out and read it over and over again, along with the DB book. I really need to pursue readings of being an Alpha male. I feel like coming from a broken home at age 6 and age 13 has done severe damage on my psyche and self-esteem.
When I was going through all of this as a teenager I had basketball to fall back on. It was my saving grace and allowed me to be validated. Even up until the point I quit playing in college to get engaged to my current wife. I guess I will truly have to find myself in all of this chaos. After basketball my validation became my wife and then my family, although I neglected them and chose to play a lot of golf etc... The coaching I will not take back as that was my job and has been my passion.
This is some awesome stuff. I will print it out and read it over and over again, along with the DB book. I really need to pursue readings of being an Alpha male. I feel like coming from a broken home at age 6 and age 13 has done severe damage on my psyche and self-esteem.
When I was going through all of this as a teenager I had basketball to fall back on. It was my saving grace and allowed me to be validated. Even up until the point I quit playing in college to get engaged to my current wife. I guess I will truly have to find myself in all of this chaos. After basketball my validation became my wife and then my family, although I neglected them and chose to play a lot of golf etc... The coaching I will not take back as that was my job and has been my passion.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 04:20 AM
Had games all weekend and avoided her text messages. She got home and then she avoided me. She said she would be out the house soon. She also said she would file for divorce before Jan 1st. I think “LH” called it.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 10:43 AM
Look P I’m not Nostradamus. That’s how 95% of these situations end up. More divorces our filed in January then any other month. In the long run it doesn’t matter who files. I suggest that you go completely dark, get all your ducks in a row and get ready for a nasty divorce because your W is going to try to take you for everything she can.
I’m a really sorry but years down the road you will see this was for the best.
I’m a really sorry but years down the road you will see this was for the best.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Look P I’m not Nostradamus. That’s how 95% of these situations end up. More divorces our filed in January then any other month. In the long run it doesn’t matter who files. I suggest that you go completely dark, get all your ducks in a row and get ready for a nasty divorce because your W is going to try to take you for everything she can.
I’m a really sorry but years down the road you will see this was for the best.
I’m a really sorry but years down the road you will see this was for the best.
I agree this is best. I've some what pushed her into a corner and I understand that I have made my situation a lot worse. Her actions ultimately put us in this mess. I made a ton of mistakes. Telling the OM's wife which got him removed and exposed it to the community, telling my family, and worse of all telling her parents which are totally against infidelity. I just hope I don't end up dead broke from all of this mess.
The worse part of all is the credit card debt which we will have to split. I have enough equity in the house that once i sell it I can be out of debt.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by phnix
Originally Posted by LH19
Look P I’m not Nostradamus. That’s how 95% of these situations end up. More divorces our filed in January then any other month. In the long run it doesn’t matter who files. I suggest that you go completely dark, get all your ducks in a row and get ready for a nasty divorce because your W is going to try to take you for everything she can.
I’m a really sorry but years down the road you will see this was for the best.
I’m a really sorry but years down the road you will see this was for the best.
I agree this is best. I've some what pushed her into a corner and I understand that I have made my situation a lot worse. Her actions ultimately put us in this mess. I made a ton of mistakes. Telling the OM's wife which got him removed and exposed it to the community, telling my family, and worse of all telling her parents which are totally against infidelity. I just hope I don't end up dead broke from all of this mess.
The worse part of all is the credit card debt which we will have to split. I have enough equity in the house that once i sell it I can be out of debt.
Yeah, but you will also be out of a house...
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 03:19 PM
P,
Don’t be to hard on yourself. I like to use the Mike Tyson quote “ everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”. You will learn and grow from this and be happy again. Be patient and kind to yourself.
Don’t be to hard on yourself. I like to use the Mike Tyson quote “ everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”. You will learn and grow from this and be happy again. Be patient and kind to yourself.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 04:40 PM
P,
Every LBS, including me thinks their situation is in the ending stage. But it's only the beginning. Everytime you take a step forward you get stronger. It's the ones that keep doing the same things over and over and stay in the corner, wondering and asking why their situations are the why they way that stay weak.
You have made a big step and have shown how much you cared about your marriage just by searching for the site and posting as much as you can. A person that didn't care wouldn't do those things.
Keep moving forward and you will eventually see the strength you are gaining and how your WW is not moving forward but moving in the path of more destruction.
We beat ourselves trying to be perfect and make all the right choices, but here's the thing, this process is about learning how to manage imperfection.
You are managing how to be great, while being human. Learning to process mistakes and make corrections on the fly.
You got this buddy.
What position did you play in HS? I played Basketball in HS and for all the base teams. I played small forward.
Onward and Forward.
Every LBS, including me thinks their situation is in the ending stage. But it's only the beginning. Everytime you take a step forward you get stronger. It's the ones that keep doing the same things over and over and stay in the corner, wondering and asking why their situations are the why they way that stay weak.
You have made a big step and have shown how much you cared about your marriage just by searching for the site and posting as much as you can. A person that didn't care wouldn't do those things.
Keep moving forward and you will eventually see the strength you are gaining and how your WW is not moving forward but moving in the path of more destruction.
We beat ourselves trying to be perfect and make all the right choices, but here's the thing, this process is about learning how to manage imperfection.
You are managing how to be great, while being human. Learning to process mistakes and make corrections on the fly.
You got this buddy.
What position did you play in HS? I played Basketball in HS and for all the base teams. I played small forward.
Onward and Forward.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
P,
Don’t be to hard on yourself. I like to use the Mike Tyson quote “ everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”. You will learn and grow from this and be happy again. Be patient and kind to yourself.
Don’t be to hard on yourself. I like to use the Mike Tyson quote “ everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”. You will learn and grow from this and be happy again. Be patient and kind to yourself.
Thanks LH19, I know I will be happy again. I will definitely be much happier than I have been for the past year. She has paid all the bills, most of the credit cards in her name, and the house is in both of our names. I've got to begin doing the little things.
Canceling joint cars, moving cash into the other bank account I created, and tell her what bills she needs to pay etc... We have tried to discuss this in the past but she gets ugly about it. She tries to tell me what I will pay and what she will pay. Sad thing is I probably would fair better off financially if I would go ahead and file myself. She doesn't want to use a lawyer. She said last night that she can file online for $135. LOL I told her that is fine but I would have my lawyer look it over and make changes. I guess she will end up being ugly through this due to the credit cards etc... I'm not sure I shouldn't let her live in the house and try to make the mortgage payment herself. I will struggle to make the payment by myself and pay other bills that I have.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/30/19 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by joejoe1
P,
What position did you play in HS? I played Basketball in HS and for all the base teams. I played small forward.
Onward and Forward.
What position did you play in HS? I played Basketball in HS and for all the base teams. I played small forward.
Onward and Forward.
LOL, I played the 1 and 2. I'm not very tall and that was my weakness. Had to be very skilled in order to survive playing at the next level. Being 5'9" isn't great for being a basketball player. My youngest son is already 6'0" in the 8th grade. Hopefully he will be able to help me in the coming years. We will certainly have a good time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/31/19 02:01 PM
W took my youngest son to go bowling yesterday and invited me to go. I declined and decided to go home and do some reading. My sister is coming up from Florida this weekend and I am going to hang out with them in a nearby city.
any suggestions for going out by yourself? Where do I go? I know the bar scenes are not good. I was thinking about an upscale party in a nearby city just to get to know people and communicate with other people. I have some contacts and friends that I could hang out with at some point. Most all of my friends are married and I do not want to intrude in their lives. Any suggestions? I wouldn't mind learning how to communicate better with females. I think this will help build my self-confidence.
any suggestions for going out by yourself? Where do I go? I know the bar scenes are not good. I was thinking about an upscale party in a nearby city just to get to know people and communicate with other people. I have some contacts and friends that I could hang out with at some point. Most all of my friends are married and I do not want to intrude in their lives. Any suggestions? I wouldn't mind learning how to communicate better with females. I think this will help build my self-confidence.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/31/19 08:24 PM
Quote
any suggestions for going out by yourself? Where do I go? I know the bar scenes are not good. I was thinking about an upscale party in a nearby city just to get to know people and communicate with other people. I have some contacts and friends that I could hang out with at some point. Most all of my friends are married and I do not want to intrude in their lives. Any suggestions? I wouldn't mind learning how to communicate better with females. I think this will help build my self-confidence.
honestly, I don't see anything intrinsically bad, wrong, or dangerous about frequenting bars. It really comes down to who you are, what frame of mind you are in, and what you are looking for. Now,obviously, if you are an alcoholic or otherwise have some problem with alcohol... In that case it's probably not the best place for you to hang out. Otherwise, if that sort of thing appeals to you, then I say go for it. In my own sitch, it was a key component of my get out and GAL strategy. I happen to like live music, and there was a fairly recently opened establishment near me that had an open-air patio, and live acoustic acts every day during happy hour from 5 till 8. I work out of my house on Thursdays, so I started going there at the tail end of my work day and finishing up my admin tasks on my laptop while having a beer or cocktail and listening to the music. I love to be outdoors, and I love music, and I enjoy a good pub, so going there was very therapeutic for me especially during the more difficult stretches of my ordeal. I befriended several members of the staff, including the owner, made the acquaintance of several regulars, and even made a couple of solid friends. I even lured out one of my older, college friends oneself had just gone through a divorce and I've become a bit of a recluse. Ended up renewing our friendship and I now play basketball with him and a bunch of other guys once a week as well. Like I said, it really depends on what you're looking for and what you're willing to put into it. For me, it was a little bit of a stretch outside of my comfort zone... I am a borderline introvert (I actually test about 50/50 between introvert/ extrovert whenever I take one of those personality type test) and going out to a bar by myself is not something that the pre- BD hoosjim whatever have done. That said, I am not so introverted that I am unable to talk to people who sit down next to me at a strange bar. My introversion tends to manifest itself more in also enjoying and valuing my alone time such as driving in the car, or reading a book or the like. So, going out like that was not something that was so antithetical to who I was as to be uncomfortable or detrimental. It was a step outside of my normal comfort zone, but, at the end of the day, one that proved to be an important growth opportunity, as well as something I ultimately enjoyed very much. So you're really kind of need to do an examination of self, and figure out if it is something you might want to try, but I wouldn't discard it just because some of the folks on here seem to think that bars are a bad idea. Even though I WOULD agree that you'd want to avoid them if you have a drinking problem, and I would also caution that you should be careful in your current state about hooking up with anyone right now-- not fair to either you or the other person, at this point. (Which is not to say that I think there's anything wrong with a little light flirting or bantering with members of the opposite sex... But start slow. More on that later.)
If you do decide to try bar going, I would suggest finding a place that is relatively busy, that is close enough for you might run into one or two people that you might know already, but has a big enough clientele that you are likely to meet new people as well. also, try to find a place that is at least partly populated by people in your own age group, and when you go, make it a point to sit at the bar, or the "common tables" or high tops, if they have them. Don't be afraid to strike up conversations with either the bar or wait staff, or with other patrons who sit down near you. It's my opinion that you can always find something in common with just about anybody. The rules for talking to women, are, in my opinion, pretty much the same is the rules for talking to anybody you just met. Be observant. Notice things about people. Ask them about those things. People love to talk about themselves. Sometimes you end up talking to people tell him you want to talk more, and sometimes you won't. It's a process, an adventure. There are obviously additional nuances to talking to females, some of which can be gleaned from some of the sources I mentioned before. A lot of it boils down to confidence, eye contact, etc. Noticing things about them is always good. As are compliments, but compliments should be specific (and, if possible, genuine, LOL). "I really like those earrings" or, "that's a cool tattoo, tell me about it", goes alot further and is more likely to lead to further conversation than just "You're very pretty/hot/etc". At the end of the day, it's mostly about confidence, showing interest in the other person (similar to validating), and also the ability to be a bit playful in conversational terms. Being able to make people genuinely laugh, especially women, pays big social dividends. There's also the whole pursuit and distance angle which works just as well on a micro basis, IE minute-to-minute, as it does on a macro basis oh, that is day to day. Get a girl laughing or some other positive reaction during conversation, and then find a reason to excuse yourself for a bit. We were wanting more. Be a bit mysterious. There's a certain amount of art to it, but a lot of the stuff (they're certainly by no means all, LOL) that you'll read in the pickup community is very valid, whether or not you're looking to pick someone up or just looking to be a more interesting conversationalist. I should note that I am by no means a pro at this, but I have found that there is a lot of validity to a lot of the principles, and that the more you engage in conversation with new people, and push your comfort zone a little, the better since you get for it and the better you get at conversation in general. With women or men.
I'm dictating this instead of typing it, and I'm also probably rambling a lot, so hopefully there's something of value to you in here.the main thing I would say is, no matter what then you you venture into, find a way to get out and meet new people. nothing wrong with reconnecting with old friends, as well, as I think that also has a lot of value. But I think it's also important to stretch and grow yourself a bit. Even the most introverted of people can learn to be more sociable and better conversationalist. Practice makes perfect.
Best of luck, and I hope you have a Happy New Year!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 12/31/19 11:04 PM
“Hoosjim”, You explained it perfectly. My weakness is communication and being an introvert. I enjoy live music etc.. and have never had a problem with alcohol. As a matter of fact I never did drink until this past year which was a huge red flag that subconsciously I knew something wasn’t right.
Nearest town with a bar and live music is 40miles away and it is a college town. Another city with more people is an hour away and I could meet tourists as well. I was thinking it would give me some confidence to meet new people and learn how to communicate. I wouldn’t be out looking for another woman. I would be observing and learning how to interact with others. Remember I have been married and with this woman since I was 17. I have no clue how to meet or talk to women. After my affair 18 years ago when I was 25 I have avoided communication with most women and especially those women that may have tried to flirt with me. I’m thinking it would be a good idea to go out and meet people.
Nearest town with a bar and live music is 40miles away and it is a college town. Another city with more people is an hour away and I could meet tourists as well. I was thinking it would give me some confidence to meet new people and learn how to communicate. I wouldn’t be out looking for another woman. I would be observing and learning how to interact with others. Remember I have been married and with this woman since I was 17. I have no clue how to meet or talk to women. After my affair 18 years ago when I was 25 I have avoided communication with most women and especially those women that may have tried to flirt with me. I’m thinking it would be a good idea to go out and meet people.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/02/20 03:35 PM
Happy New Year! Getting off to a good start and beginning to work on myself. My main goals are to work on my physical, emotional, and spiritual self. I have done a lot of reading and will continue to read more books. I hope to discover myself and find my purpose through my passions. I would like to continue to get stronger and "let her go" emotionally. I've realized that I need to be strong for my 2 S's. They did not ask to be put in this situation and I am beginning to see them struggle and become somewhat withdrawn.
I want to thank all those on the board that have offered advice and tried to get me to see the light of day. I am going to try and read other threads and offer advice to others. I have made many mistakes in this process so I have a lot of experience at what not to do!!
I want to thank all those on the board that have offered advice and tried to get me to see the light of day. I am going to try and read other threads and offer advice to others. I have made many mistakes in this process so I have a lot of experience at what not to do!!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/02/20 04:24 PM
Happy New Year P! Be the lighthouse for your Ss. Shine bright there for your family. Keep walking that road.
Respect!
Respect!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/02/20 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
Happy New Year P! Be the lighthouse for your Ss. Shine bright there for your family. Keep walking that road.
Respect!
Respect!
Thanks Neffer!!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/02/20 05:20 PM
Hey phnx, Happy New Year to you, too.
Well, I explained it the best I could considering my speech to text app $uck$, lol
A final note on "confidence", in general, and let me preface this by saying that I am not generally one to proselytize, but I do think this is important to offer up given how helpful it has been to me:
My recollection is that you and your W were people of faith. If not, feel free to ignore (but hopefully at least thoughtfully consider) the following: I have personally found, and from talking to other people of faith and being around them, that there are very few things... and for me, personally, nothing... that gives you confidence in every aspect of your life like a personal relationship with God and a solid grounding in the understanding of scripture. (Finding the right church/congregation helps too-- We are all imperfect/broken creatures down here, and some entities/groups/etc are less positive/uplifting than others... and some are just bad fits for any given individual. Different people come to God in different ways). The fundamental message of Christianity (and I apologize to those of other faiths on here-- not trying to marginalize, i just don't have any more than a rudimentary understanding of any other faith) is one of hope... of being forgiven for all of your screw ups no matter how bad, and of living not just for eternity but living right now while you are here on earth a life "fully alive". If you need not fear death, than what is there to fear? Lots of really great, confidence-inspiring passages in scripture. Two of my faves:
""For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
--Jeremiah 29:11
"If God is for us, who can be against us?"
--Romans 8:31
There are countless others, but I will stop, now, because discovering and reading and reflecting on these things yourself is, imo, an important part of the journey... and also because this is not a "religious" site and I know not everyone is a person of faith and some people are even put off or offended when people post about it online. However, I wanted to share this because rediscovering and growing in my faith was the one single thing... my bedrock foundation... that kept me from fully despairing in my darkest moments (and there were many) when it looked like my MR had no shot at surviving and/or I started to think my life was a disaster. Attending a new churfch and meeting the congregants and hearing fresh insights on scripture and the personal revelations that went along with that... I just cant put into words almost how important that was to my GAL and to my personal outlook on everything. Because of that work and the growth/development of my faith , at the end of the day, i was always able to came back to: "No matter what happens, i know, in the end, everything will be alright. I know where I am going and i know God has a plan for me and it is a good one... even if my marriage fails, I lose my job, and Icontract some dreadful disease. It;s okay. At the end of it all I know where I am going." I cannot overemphasize how important that faith was to me, and how it was the foundation for everything else I did-- my CONFIDENCE in everything I did and in all my interactions with other people... including the strength to walk away from my wife when doing so looked like the definitive end of a 25 year relationship"
Peace to you in the New Year!
Quote
“Hoosjim”, You explained it perfectly.
Well, I explained it the best I could considering my speech to text app $uck$, lol
A final note on "confidence", in general, and let me preface this by saying that I am not generally one to proselytize, but I do think this is important to offer up given how helpful it has been to me:
My recollection is that you and your W were people of faith. If not, feel free to ignore (but hopefully at least thoughtfully consider) the following: I have personally found, and from talking to other people of faith and being around them, that there are very few things... and for me, personally, nothing... that gives you confidence in every aspect of your life like a personal relationship with God and a solid grounding in the understanding of scripture. (Finding the right church/congregation helps too-- We are all imperfect/broken creatures down here, and some entities/groups/etc are less positive/uplifting than others... and some are just bad fits for any given individual. Different people come to God in different ways). The fundamental message of Christianity (and I apologize to those of other faiths on here-- not trying to marginalize, i just don't have any more than a rudimentary understanding of any other faith) is one of hope... of being forgiven for all of your screw ups no matter how bad, and of living not just for eternity but living right now while you are here on earth a life "fully alive". If you need not fear death, than what is there to fear? Lots of really great, confidence-inspiring passages in scripture. Two of my faves:
""For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
--Jeremiah 29:11
"If God is for us, who can be against us?"
--Romans 8:31
There are countless others, but I will stop, now, because discovering and reading and reflecting on these things yourself is, imo, an important part of the journey... and also because this is not a "religious" site and I know not everyone is a person of faith and some people are even put off or offended when people post about it online. However, I wanted to share this because rediscovering and growing in my faith was the one single thing... my bedrock foundation... that kept me from fully despairing in my darkest moments (and there were many) when it looked like my MR had no shot at surviving and/or I started to think my life was a disaster. Attending a new churfch and meeting the congregants and hearing fresh insights on scripture and the personal revelations that went along with that... I just cant put into words almost how important that was to my GAL and to my personal outlook on everything. Because of that work and the growth/development of my faith , at the end of the day, i was always able to came back to: "No matter what happens, i know, in the end, everything will be alright. I know where I am going and i know God has a plan for me and it is a good one... even if my marriage fails, I lose my job, and Icontract some dreadful disease. It;s okay. At the end of it all I know where I am going." I cannot overemphasize how important that faith was to me, and how it was the foundation for everything else I did-- my CONFIDENCE in everything I did and in all my interactions with other people... including the strength to walk away from my wife when doing so looked like the definitive end of a 25 year relationship"
Peace to you in the New Year!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/03/20 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Hey phnx, Happy New Year to you, too.
Well, I explained it the best I could considering my speech to text app $uck$, lol
A final note on "confidence", in general, and let me preface this by saying that I am not generally one to proselytize, but I do think this is important to offer up given how helpful it has been to me:
My recollection is that you and your W were people of faith. If not, feel free to ignore (but hopefully at least thoughtfully consider) the following:
Quote
“Hoosjim”, You explained it perfectly.
Well, I explained it the best I could considering my speech to text app $uck$, lol
A final note on "confidence", in general, and let me preface this by saying that I am not generally one to proselytize, but I do think this is important to offer up given how helpful it has been to me:
My recollection is that you and your W were people of faith. If not, feel free to ignore (but hopefully at least thoughtfully consider) the following:
We are to some degree people of faith. I feel like that is where we failed and for our son's sake. The first 10 years of our marriage we attended church but not regularly. She grew up in a very spiritual household and she never missed a day of church while she was living at home. She has recently been involved more with exploring other viewpoints such as meditation, tao, yoga, and holistic beliefs to some degree in the past 8 years. I do believe going forward I must commit to a more Christian spiritual leadership and finding wisdom and healing in that avenue. This is what I feel drawn too, however she has been somewhat turned away from the Christian faith. She believes most southern baptist are spiritual due to fear and scare tactics preached from the alter. This is why we attended a non-denominational church for most of our marriage.
Her mother mentioned they dedicated her and their family to Jesus and that she will eventually have to return to the way she was raised. I do want to thank you for the encouragement and the scripture you have provided.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/03/20 07:56 PM
Your description of your wife reminds me of my wife. She was raised in a very devout Catholic family (I was raised Presbyterian, although in the south, so the Southern Baptist influence was everywhere...Liberty University was right down the road). Anyway, my wife... The oldest child, devout Catholic upbringing, always expected to be the "good girl", and the good example to other siblings... Always, as she put it, alot of expectations on her. So, while her faith was always important to her, at the point she became wayward, she rebelled against that, as she did against me and the marriage and even, to a certain extent, her family. She stopped going to mass, except occasionally, stopped taking communion, was DEFINITELY resistant and resentful of religious or faith-based reasons that what she was doing was wrong. That was actually one of the big clues that I knew she had "turned" back... When she resumed going to mass, and to confession, and taking communion. so, even though she rebelled, and turrned away from it for a while, I firmly believe that it was her previous firm grounding in her faith that was one of the big reasons that she came around eventually, and as quickly as she did, if you can call 16+ months "quickly", lol.
Maybe yours will eventually come around in similar fashion. If you still want it,bi pray that it is so. Until such time, however, even if it does happen, you have little to no control over it. Need to focus on yourself, and working on you.
Hang in there, man, and keep up the good work in your GALs, etc
Maybe yours will eventually come around in similar fashion. If you still want it,bi pray that it is so. Until such time, however, even if it does happen, you have little to no control over it. Need to focus on yourself, and working on you.
Hang in there, man, and keep up the good work in your GALs, etc
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/03/20 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Your description of your wife reminds me of my wife. She was raised in a very devout Catholic family (I was raised Presbyterian, although in the south, so the Southern Baptist influence was everywhere...Liberty University was right down the road). Anyway, my wife... The oldest child, devout Catholic upbringing, always expected to be the "good girl", and the good example to other siblings... Always, as she put it, alot of expectations on her. So, while her faith was always important to her, at the point she became wayward, she rebelled against that, as she did against me and the marriage and even, to a certain extent, her family. She stopped going to mass, except occasionally, stopped taking communion, was DEFINITELY resistant and resentful of religious or faith-based reasons that what she was doing was wrong. That was actually one of the big clues that I knew she had "turned" back... When she resumed going to mass, and to confession, and taking communion. so, even though she rebelled, and turrned away from it for a while, I firmly believe that it was her previous firm grounding in her faith that was one of the big reasons that she came around eventually, and as quickly as she did, if you can call 16+ months "quickly", lol.
Maybe yours will eventually come around in similar fashion. If you still want it,bi pray that it is so. Until such time, however, even if it does happen, you have little to no control over it. Need to focus on yourself, and working on you.
Hang in there, man, and keep up the good work in your GALs, etc
Maybe yours will eventually come around in similar fashion. If you still want it,bi pray that it is so. Until such time, however, even if it does happen, you have little to no control over it. Need to focus on yourself, and working on you.
Hang in there, man, and keep up the good work in your GALs, etc
Sounds exactly like my situation. I just suspect and know my wife that it will be difficult for her to let go but at the same time as time goes by I think she realizes the other side is not who she is at the end of the day. That’s why she all of a sudden gets back to reading self-help books and focusing on personal growth. Problem is last time it lasted for about 4 days. She gets constant scripture from her mom and she doesn’t like that.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/04/20 05:46 PM
I actually went to bars a bit when I was in limbo. Going out and having fun like that was something I had done fairly often. Now, I am a bit younger.
One caveat, I knew not to get drunk because that would make me very emotional and I didn't want to contact or beg my then WW.
I found interaction with women when I was out, and noticed my thoughts became more positive, my attitude turned into one where I knew I could get through my sitch, and that other women would still desire me. How foolish was I to think otherwise....
One caveat, I knew not to get drunk because that would make me very emotional and I didn't want to contact or beg my then WW.
I found interaction with women when I was out, and noticed my thoughts became more positive, my attitude turned into one where I knew I could get through my sitch, and that other women would still desire me. How foolish was I to think otherwise....
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 05:53 PM
I continue to take steps backwards. Most of it is emotional anger etc...... I have tried to walk away when feeling this way. This crap is so tough to deal with and handle. I feel like I continue to fail and fall backwards. Discovering her meeting up at his house on 12/21 has made me bitter and resentful. I know many say that you have to move forward and forget about the incidents where you step backwards.
Going to try and move forward. I am disappointed in how I responded this weekend. I learned she was trying to record me having an outburst or being upset. I feel like she was trying to push me to that point. She claimed the only reason she did it was so she could show her mother how unstable I am. This life has become a circus and I am convinced she truly sees me as the enemy. I just hate this for our 13yr old S.
Going to try and move forward. I am disappointed in how I responded this weekend. I learned she was trying to record me having an outburst or being upset. I feel like she was trying to push me to that point. She claimed the only reason she did it was so she could show her mother how unstable I am. This life has become a circus and I am convinced she truly sees me as the enemy. I just hate this for our 13yr old S.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 06:30 PM
P,
I’m sorry you had a rough weekend.
One of the best things I learned along my journey is to learn how to control my emotions. You can’t blame her for you losing your cool. Something to work on.
I’m sorry you had a rough weekend.
One of the best things I learned along my journey is to learn how to control my emotions. You can’t blame her for you losing your cool. Something to work on.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
P,
I’m sorry you had a rough weekend.
One of the best things I learned along my journey is to learn how to control my emotions. You can’t blame her for you losing your cool. Something to work on.
I’m sorry you had a rough weekend.
One of the best things I learned along my journey is to learn how to control my emotions. You can’t blame her for you losing your cool. Something to work on.
I’m all for being in control of your emotions. Especially around a cheater. He shouldn't show the vulnerable little underbelly. But let’s face it — we all lose our cool when we’ve been cheated on. If he didn’t lose his cool, I’d wonder if he didn’t care. Best way to not lose his cool is to not be around them. Period. Try no contact. It really minimizes the psychodrama.
What gets their attention is no contact. What gets their attention is you getting your stuff together to protect yourself from their entitlement. Lawyers, separate finances, the cessation of kibbles. THAT gets their attention — your NON attention.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 07:00 PM
One of my favorite shows is Californiacation. It’s about an alpha male who is going through a midlife crisis trying to win back the love of his life.
There’s a scene where he goes into the bathroom to take a leak and he closes the door and there’s a dead man who hung himself on the door. He makes a joke and calmly calls his beta friend in the bathroom. His beta friend comes in and starts screaming and crying like a girl because he can’t control his emotions. Then his other beta friend comes in and does the same thing.
Who do you think is the most attractive of the three?
Something to think about.
There’s a scene where he goes into the bathroom to take a leak and he closes the door and there’s a dead man who hung himself on the door. He makes a joke and calmly calls his beta friend in the bathroom. His beta friend comes in and starts screaming and crying like a girl because he can’t control his emotions. Then his other beta friend comes in and does the same thing.
Who do you think is the most attractive of the three?
Something to think about.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 07:30 PM
Quote
Going to try and move forward. I am disappointed in how I responded this weekend. I learned she was trying to record me having an outburst or being upset. I feel like she was trying to push me to that point. She claimed the only reason she did it was so she could show her mother how unstable I am. This life has become a circus and I am convinced she truly sees me as the enemy. I just hate this for our 13yr old S.
What did she do and how did you respond this weekend? I didn't see any posts from you from those days. Just from the hints you give above, she seems VERY wayward, still. Trying to justify her actions to go along with her selective memory of your MR (only remembering the bad and none of the good) so that (as she hopes) she can ride off into the sunset with OM and live happily ever after and get a favorable divorce settlement and every one will love her and there will be unicorns and puppy dogs for everyone etc etc etc.
At any rate, i'd be curious to hear about it. From your perspective, just need to try to stay lovingly detached. Be as cool and indifferent as you can (indifference, btw, and not "hate", is the opposite of "love")Quote
I feel like I continue to fail and fall backwards. Discovering her meeting up at his house on 12/21 has made me bitter and resentful. I know many say that you have to move forward and forget about the incidents where you step backwards.
Yes, this is obviously a problem (and one of the most profound hurdles erected by snooping, or "intelligence gathering"... or otherwise finding out details about the affair): Once you find out about something, or see something, you cant "un-discover" it or "un-see" it. And in the realm of MRs and affairs, some of those things you discover or see can be extremely traumatic and damaging to the psyche. It (fully realizing or being confronted with, no filter, the degree or details of your spouse's infidelity/cheating) is one of the primary hurdles to reconciling a MR that has been subject to infidelity. It is one reason (along with eventually realizing how good your life can be even without your spouse) that LBSs often, by the end of the process, have no interest in "taking back" their spouse and eventually themselves become, in effect, the WAS. Sometimes you just can't overcome the damage and betrayal. I myself have struggled with this, even after my W and I reconciled, and even now almost two years afterwards. I had an IC session only a month ago... and I am not even certain my W actually slept with OM. It's just hard to get the images you conjure up about the possibilities out of your head... I can only imagine how hard it is to get them out of your head when, as in your case, your W describes it to you in rather graphic detail. So don't feel like there is something wrong with you for being bitter and resentful... it is quite normal. You can't control how you feel... BUT... you CAN control how you react to those feelings and how you respond and behave (partcularly around her and your kids). Be cool, calm, confident, and in control at all times... YOU have done NOTHING wrong.
overnbw:
Quote
I found interaction with women when I was out, and noticed my thoughts became more positive, my attitude turned into one where I knew I could get through my sitch, and that other women would still desire me. How foolish was I to think otherwise....
Yeah, this is a really huge confidence booster, and i think it can really be helpful when you are going through this kind of sitch.... however... it can also be an important cautionary tale: I recall when my W was still in the "affair" stage, and I was finally revving up my GAL-ing and coming to grips with the fact that I might very well be moving forward as a single man... I came to a point when i was visiting my fellow LBH buddy out of town one weekend that i thought to myself: "Self, you know what? You just need to go with the flow tonight, have fun, enjoy yourself, live in the moment, etc etc." So I did just that. Didn't mope, got back into the mindset of being the man I once was demeanor-wise, confident, carefree. Talked to anyone in the bar who seemed willing. Talked and bantered, flirted a little (lightly, as I thought) Met alot of folks, including a few ladies, a couple of which, both quite attractive and younger, were definitely available and, at least in one case, very interested. It was... intoxicating. My buddy even at one point during a private sidebar when we went up to order drinks, had to talk me down a bit: "Hey, man, where do you think this is going?" ...and "Do you know what you are doing, here and what you want, both for you and your MR and then with this girl... and what do you think this girl is thinking"... and it made me stop and think, hard. Because I wasn't really looking to hook up or anything like that... I had just been letting myself go, having some fun, playfully conversing, etc. But I realized that I was getting very close to crossing a line, and I realized that this girl very well likely was becoming interested and the situation very easily could have ended up becoming something that wouldn't have been fair to me, or to her, or to my MR, and definitely wouldn't have been consistent with my own goals for my MR (I was still actively hoping for reconcilliation at that point, and still considered myself "married.") So I pumped the brakes just a bit. Still let myself have fun and be sociable, but dialed back the flirtatiousness a bit and made it a point to try to avoid leading anybody on or do or say anything inappropriate.
The whole episode really made me... idunno, "sympathize" is probably the wrong word, but at least, maybe... made me understand how my W could, after years of a SSM, be tempted and have her head turned by someone showering her with attention and exhibiting a "desire" for her and making her feel "wanted" romantically/sexually. NOT that i think that that excuses what she did... not even for a second. But I DID see (because I also was subjected to the distance and neglect and denial of intimacy in my MR) how, after being so denied, all of a sudden being exposed to it, by an attractive member of the opposite sex, could be difficult (though not impossible) to resist... "Well, maybe I'll just go flirt/talk with this person a bit more in a more quiet corner of the bar.." and then "Well maybe I'll just walk them out to there car or go for a walk with them or go to get a cup of coffee" and then "Wow, felt so good to talk to them, maybe we can get together again... just to talke" etc etc etc. The emotions and the draw of that attention is powerful. If you put yourself in that situation (talking/flirting) with single members of the opposite sex in a bar or other establishment where you will be drinking alcohol, you do have to be careful and you do have to know yourself, where you are emotionally, what you want and what you can handle both in terms of alcohol and in terms of interacting with members of the opposite sex. As i said above, I think that that dynamic can actually be good, and healthy, and confidence-building, and therapeutic... but it can also be powerfully seductive and enticing depending on your own particular disposition and situation. Don't cross any lines that might derail your own personal progress, permanently torpedo your MR (assuming you are still working/hoping for reconcilliation) or hurt an innocent person.
Mario:
Quote
I’m all for being in control of your emotions. Especially around a cheater. He shouldn't show the vulnerable little underbelly. But let’s face it — we all lose our cool when we’ve been cheated on. If he didn’t lose his cool, I’d wonder if he didn’t care. Best way to not lose his cool is to not be around them. Period. Try no contact. It really minimizes the psychodrama.
Going dark, either completely or selectively (not always possible with kids involved to be completely dark) is usually a good idea/strategy, both in terms of your own emotional well-being as well as in terms of earning some respect back. OTOH, I do believe that it is okay to show/exhibit anger... as long as it is done in a calm, controlled fashion. In fact, it can be even more powerful this way. Not always easy to do, but a very powerful statement. Should be reserved for direct expressions of disrespect (say, where W decides to graphically describe to you her sexual liaison with OM from only a day or two prior). It's an art. One of the most effective, but tricky, manifestations of which is being able to drop a curse word or two in there, almost matter-of factly, without raising your voice or exhibiting any other signs of "rage". The key is that you are ALWAYS cool, and ALWAYS in control of yourself and your emotions and, in general, when around your W, always exhibiting kind of quiet confidence and mild cheerfullness/upbeat attitude (because YOUR life is going AMAZINGLY).
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 07:45 PM
Hi,
This comment may get me a bit of backlash, but can I suggest you consider recording yourself..
When I lived with my WW I started to doubt myself from all the lies and gaslighting. I really did start to think I was going crazy at first. I started to go everywhere with an old iPhone in my pocket recording everything. My initial reason for this was to check when needed that I wasn’t going nuts.. After a while it served its purpose, I found this site and became familiar with the whole WW mentality..
But in the early days it really helped me... but I’ll never forget how WW would lose it and go into a rage... what added to her rage was the fact I always remained calm and composed... it drive her insane and she would scream at me “ why aren’t you shouting back” etc...
Why was I always so calm... I knew I was recording myself and no matter how much she lost it ( got physical on one occassion) I was Mr Chilled... so in its own way it’s like having that person looking over your shoulder saying “don’t lose it”.... I was also concerned she was consider lying ( she lied about everything else) to get custody of the children etc.. I knew I always had to remain calm in case I needed these as evidence..
My Ww can never justifiably say I raised a voice to her... she has told people but I know it’s lies and can prove if I need to..Because that phone meant I was always calm...
Worth considering..
This comment may get me a bit of backlash, but can I suggest you consider recording yourself..
When I lived with my WW I started to doubt myself from all the lies and gaslighting. I really did start to think I was going crazy at first. I started to go everywhere with an old iPhone in my pocket recording everything. My initial reason for this was to check when needed that I wasn’t going nuts.. After a while it served its purpose, I found this site and became familiar with the whole WW mentality..
But in the early days it really helped me... but I’ll never forget how WW would lose it and go into a rage... what added to her rage was the fact I always remained calm and composed... it drive her insane and she would scream at me “ why aren’t you shouting back” etc...
Why was I always so calm... I knew I was recording myself and no matter how much she lost it ( got physical on one occassion) I was Mr Chilled... so in its own way it’s like having that person looking over your shoulder saying “don’t lose it”.... I was also concerned she was consider lying ( she lied about everything else) to get custody of the children etc.. I knew I always had to remain calm in case I needed these as evidence..
My Ww can never justifiably say I raised a voice to her... she has told people but I know it’s lies and can prove if I need to..Because that phone meant I was always calm...
Worth considering..
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by MrBrside
Hi,
This comment may get me a bit of backlash, but can I suggest you consider recording yourself..
When I lived with my WW I started to doubt myself from all the lies and gaslighting. I really did start to think I was going crazy at first. I started to go everywhere with an old iPhone in my pocket recording everything. My initial reason for this was to check when needed that I wasn’t going nuts.. After a while it served its purpose, I found this site and became familiar with the whole WW mentality..
But in the early days it really helped me... but I’ll never forget how WW would lose it and go into a rage... what added to her rage was the fact I always remained calm and composed... it drive her insane and she would scream at me “ why aren’t you shouting back” etc...
Why was I always so calm... I knew I was recording myself and no matter how much she lost it ( got physical on one occassion) I was Mr Chilled... so in its own way it’s like having that person looking over your shoulder saying “don’t lose it”.... I was also concerned she was consider lying ( she lied about everything else) to get custody of the children etc.. I knew I always had to remain calm in case I needed these as evidence..
My Ww can never justifiably say I raised a voice to her... she has told people but I know it’s lies and can prove if I need to..Because that phone meant I was always calm...
Worth considering..
This comment may get me a bit of backlash, but can I suggest you consider recording yourself..
When I lived with my WW I started to doubt myself from all the lies and gaslighting. I really did start to think I was going crazy at first. I started to go everywhere with an old iPhone in my pocket recording everything. My initial reason for this was to check when needed that I wasn’t going nuts.. After a while it served its purpose, I found this site and became familiar with the whole WW mentality..
But in the early days it really helped me... but I’ll never forget how WW would lose it and go into a rage... what added to her rage was the fact I always remained calm and composed... it drive her insane and she would scream at me “ why aren’t you shouting back” etc...
Why was I always so calm... I knew I was recording myself and no matter how much she lost it ( got physical on one occassion) I was Mr Chilled... so in its own way it’s like having that person looking over your shoulder saying “don’t lose it”.... I was also concerned she was consider lying ( she lied about everything else) to get custody of the children etc.. I knew I always had to remain calm in case I needed these as evidence..
My Ww can never justifiably say I raised a voice to her... she has told people but I know it’s lies and can prove if I need to..Because that phone meant I was always calm...
Worth considering..
My question. Why record yourself? is it only for yourself and to make sure you are calm?
Because it seems like you have this idea that you can pull it out to prove to your W or other people that you were calm during interactions you recorded. Now let me ask you? imagine that scenario playing out. Your W says you blew your top, you pull out your phone and replay the interaction. How is your W going to react? Is she going to say, "Gee, you are right. I lied to my friends. Thanks for pointing this out."
Also, all this really proves to the WW is that you recorded the calm interactions.
Not to mention you should check the local laws because it may be illegal to record other people depending on the state.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Not to mention you should check the local laws because it may be illegal to record other people depending on the state.
It's not illegal as long as you are a party to the conversation. I just learned this while watching "Bombshell" over the weekend. Here's a blurb from a law office's web site:
Quote
Federal law permits recording telephone calls and in-person conversations with the consent of at least one of the parties. ... Under a one-party consent law, you can record a phone call or conversation so long as you are a party to the conversation.
Now whether the recording is admissible in court is another matter entirely, and does vary from state-to-state. But if you are just recording for your own personal use later as a "sanity check" as it sounds like MrBrside was, that's perfectly legal.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Quote
Going to try and move forward. I am disappointed in how I responded this weekend. I learned she was trying to record me having an outburst or being upset. I feel like she was trying to push me to that point. She claimed the only reason she did it was so she could show her mother how unstable I am. This life has become a circus and I am convinced she truly sees me as the enemy. I just hate this for our 13yr old S.
What did she do and how did you respond this weekend? I didn't see any posts from you from those days. Just from the hints you give above, she seems VERY wayward, still. Trying to justify her actions to go along with her selective memory of your MR (only remembering the bad and none of the good) so that (as she hopes) she can ride off into the sunset with OM and live happily ever after and get a favorable divorce settlement and every one will love her and there will be unicorns and puppy dogs for everyone etc etc etc.
At any rate, i'd be curious to hear about it. From your perspective, just need to try to stay lovingly detached. Be as cool and indifferent as you can (indifference, btw, and not "hate", is the opposite of "love")I was frustrated because I had a ballgame Friday night. Our son stayed at her mothers house and it was kind of a trigger due to the last time I had a game she met up with him. I mentioned something to her about it. She was upset and played it off ignoring me.
On Sunday she mentioned moving out and leaving me with the mortgage and other bills and I got heated. She began talking about OM and how it wasn't fair to him or me for her to be living like this which I took it as she was moving out so she can be exclusively with him. Needless to say I got angry and even more angry when she began making demands about me paying the mortgage and other bills as well. I felt like she is wanting to move out and possibly sticking me with most of the bills.
I am just disappointed I didn't validate and play it off like I needed too. Shouldn't have got angry and raised my voice. Need to respond better and validate when she mentions these things. I think she mentions them to get a rise out of me. I know that it is best if she moves out. She has always threatened divorce and moving out so that it will get me heated, but mentioning the OM and his plans etc.. is what really gets me pissed. It just verifies that she is in constant and detailed communication with him. How she can sit there and discuss details. She claims they have agreed to end it and that he is using tinder to start going out on dates. I know....., I told her I didn't care and I didn't care to hear about the OM.
I am going to IC starting next week. The trauma of the details and what I have continuously been through will require me to get help. I can't do it alone.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/06/20 11:42 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Federal law permits recording telephone calls and in-person conversations with the consent of at least one of the parties
This is NOT TRUE in all states. NOT TRUE. If you live in one of the one party consent states you are correct and this statement is accurate. However if you live in one of the 11 two party consent states BOTH parties must be aware and consent. This also goes to recording in person although those laws have been “evolving” over the years to only include places where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy - generally meaning public places. A home would not qualify. Need to be careful when giving advice like this - especially if it is wrong advice.
The 11 two party consent states are: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/07/20 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by DonH
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Federal law permits recording telephone calls and in-person conversations with the consent of at least one of the parties
This is NOT TRUE in all states. NOT TRUE. If you live in one of the one party consent states you are correct and this statement is accurate. However if you live in one of the 11 two party consent states BOTH parties must be aware and consent. This also goes to recording in person although those laws have been “evolving” over the years to only include places where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy - generally meaning public places. A home would not qualify. Need to be careful when giving advice like this - especially if it is wrong advice.
The 11 two party consent states are: California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania and Washington.
This is correct. AS is referring to Federal Law. However, most laws are prosecuted at the state or local level. So while a person can't be arrested and prosecuted under federal law they may have criminal liability under state law.
However, even if legal, it still will probably backfire against the spouse who was recorded without her knowledge. They won't be thanking you for showing the error of their ways.
Lastly, don't get legal advice from a forum or a movie. Check with an attorney when in doubt.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/07/20 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Lastly, don't get legal advice from a forum or a movie. Check with an attorney when in doubt.
Sadly, we have grown to so many laws that if we were to do this we’d be on the phone with an attorney every day of our lives. We’ve all probably broken 6 laws by noon and don’t know it. Thankfully many are never prosecuted or applied.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/07/20 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by DonH
Originally Posted by Mario
Lastly, don't get legal advice from a forum or a movie. Check with an attorney when in doubt.
Sadly, we have grown to so many laws that if we were to do this we’d be on the phone with an attorney every day of our lives. We’ve all probably broken 6 laws by noon and don’t know it. Thankfully many are never prosecuted or applied.
What do expect from an L? LOL. Actually, I don't advocate checking with an attorney for everything, but I think when it comes to a D or doing things for a D having sound legal advice is important. (Or at minimum check with the Law firm of Google, Google and Google.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/07/20 06:32 PM
Reading, "Love must be tough" and it is a very good read. Maybe the best book I've read yet that offers scripture to go along with his explanations. Only just started it but it doesn't recommend filing for divorce. I can see how Respect is at the foundation of Loving someone.
He discusses the idea of someone and the loss of respect is what causes spouses to become WW. Makes perfect since as to why tough love and standing up for what is right in a calm and confident manner gains more respect for yourself and from others.
He discusses the idea of someone and the loss of respect is what causes spouses to become WW. Makes perfect since as to why tough love and standing up for what is right in a calm and confident manner gains more respect for yourself and from others.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/07/20 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
I don't advocate checking with an attorney for everything, but I think when it comes to a D or doing things for a D having sound legal advice is important.
Oh for sure! Totally agree with that.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/07/20 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by phnix
Reading, "Love must be tough" and it is a very good read. Maybe the best book I've read yet that offers scripture to go along with his explanations. Only just started it but it doesn't recommend filing for divorce. I can see how Respect is at the foundation of Loving someone.
He discusses the idea of someone and the loss of respect is what causes spouses to become WW. Makes perfect since as to why tough love and standing up for what is right in a calm and confident manner gains more respect for yourself and from others.
He discusses the idea of someone and the loss of respect is what causes spouses to become WW. Makes perfect since as to why tough love and standing up for what is right in a calm and confident manner gains more respect for yourself and from others.
Ummmmmm We've been telling you that for months. So because you read it in a book now it sinks in? LH face palms.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by phnix
Reading, "Love must be tough" and it is a very good read. Maybe the best book I've read yet that offers scripture to go along with his explanations. Only just started it but it doesn't recommend filing for divorce. I can see how Respect is at the foundation of Loving someone.
He discusses the idea of someone and the loss of respect is what causes spouses to become WW. Makes perfect since as to why tough love and standing up for what is right in a calm and confident manner gains more respect for yourself and from others.
He discusses the idea of someone and the loss of respect is what causes spouses to become WW. Makes perfect since as to why tough love and standing up for what is right in a calm and confident manner gains more respect for yourself and from others.
Ummmmmm We've been telling you that for months. So because you read it in a book now it sinks in? LH face palms.
I know right!!! I am slowly waking up to reality. She doesn't love me and wants someone else but scared to make the move or the decision. Eventually I'll make the decision for her.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 11:17 AM
P,
I am willing to bet my last dollar that the OM decision is what is holding this up. If he was committed she would have filed already. I bet he's keeping her at arms length.
I am willing to bet my last dollar that the OM decision is what is holding this up. If he was committed she would have filed already. I bet he's keeping her at arms length.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
P,
I am willing to bet my last dollar that the OM decision is what is holding this up. If he was committed she would have filed already. I bet he's keeping her at arms length.
I am willing to bet my last dollar that the OM decision is what is holding this up. If he was committed she would have filed already. I bet he's keeping her at arms length.
Being on the outside looking in you are probably right. This may be why she mentioned they have decided to stop talking and she said he is going to date other people. She also mentioned he is on Tinder. Of course I told her I didn't care to hear about him and that she is just admitting that they have still been talking.
Even repeating that phrase upsets me. Dating other people as if they have been dating all along.
Speaking on a positive note, I have been able to move forward and not focus on her.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 04:31 PM
Yep just as I suspected. Most guys coming out of a long term marriage are not gonna want to be tied down right out of the gate.
Boy your W is sure a piece of work.
Boy your W is sure a piece of work.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 04:38 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Yep just as I suspected. Most guys coming out of a long term marriage are not gonna want to be tied down right out of the gate.
Boy your W is sure a piece of work.
Boy your W is sure a piece of work.
She is back on this kick about going to counseling. I have received several text this morning already about it. I can't understand why she wants to go so bad. If she wants out of the marriage then why not just leave or file. Why is she so concerned about seeking counseling? Is it because I have been so manipulative in trying to keep her with me? Is she afraid I will try to turn our boys against her like my father did with me. She has mentioned this before to me.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 04:47 PM
P,
Listen to me. It’s because she’s afraid of the unknown and every time she feels OM slipping away she runs to you. This statement is anti DB but I’m here to help you. Divorce this woman ASAP. Many many years down the road if she gets her $hit together you can revisit it. You are not to blame here. Were you the perfect husband? No but you don’t deserve this kind of treatment. No human being does.
Sorry man but I want what’s best for you and kids.
Listen to me. It’s because she’s afraid of the unknown and every time she feels OM slipping away she runs to you. This statement is anti DB but I’m here to help you. Divorce this woman ASAP. Many many years down the road if she gets her $hit together you can revisit it. You are not to blame here. Were you the perfect husband? No but you don’t deserve this kind of treatment. No human being does.
Sorry man but I want what’s best for you and kids.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 05:11 PM
You signed up for the bad times. These are the bad times. Buckle up, do the work on you, see where it goes.
Phoenix needs to be working on himself more importantly than a divorce.
That also means quit sticking his nose in for another punch.
Phoenix needs to be working on himself more importantly than a divorce.
That also means quit sticking his nose in for another punch.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 05:26 PM
P,
Listen, your WW reality is different from yours. In her reality she was dating this man and in a relationship. You might not like it or want to hear it, but it's her truth.
Why do she want to go to counseling? Why did she tell she wanted to go? If she hasn't told you ask! Most likely it's for her own justification. It's a selfish move on her part, to lessen the burden of guilt. She has a lot of shame to deal with and anything that can help minimize her guilt she will try.
Lastly, you don't have to Divorce to get to where you need to be. But you do need to work on your healing. It's your choice to allow her to bring you into fights and arguments. It's your choice to listen to her vent to your about her relationship with the OM. Instead of telling her you don't want to hear about him. What actions can you take when she brings him up? One thing you can do is say, "I'm done with this conversation and walk away, every single time she mention his name or reference their relationship", and I mean every single time. She will get the message.
Stop putting all the burden on her to help you heal and respect your boundaries. Come up with tangible actions/consequences to her disrespect and hold her to them. Stop being afraid of her reactions, and learn to respect yourself more than her reactions.
Joejoe
Listen, your WW reality is different from yours. In her reality she was dating this man and in a relationship. You might not like it or want to hear it, but it's her truth.
Why do she want to go to counseling? Why did she tell she wanted to go? If she hasn't told you ask! Most likely it's for her own justification. It's a selfish move on her part, to lessen the burden of guilt. She has a lot of shame to deal with and anything that can help minimize her guilt she will try.
Lastly, you don't have to Divorce to get to where you need to be. But you do need to work on your healing. It's your choice to allow her to bring you into fights and arguments. It's your choice to listen to her vent to your about her relationship with the OM. Instead of telling her you don't want to hear about him. What actions can you take when she brings him up? One thing you can do is say, "I'm done with this conversation and walk away, every single time she mention his name or reference their relationship", and I mean every single time. She will get the message.
Stop putting all the burden on her to help you heal and respect your boundaries. Come up with tangible actions/consequences to her disrespect and hold her to them. Stop being afraid of her reactions, and learn to respect yourself more than her reactions.
Joejoe
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by joejoe1
P,
Listen, your WW reality is different from yours. In her reality she was dating this man and in a relationship. You might not like it or want to hear it, but it's her truth.
Why do she want to go to counseling? Why did she tell she wanted to go? If she hasn't told you ask! Most likely it's for her own justification. It's a selfish move on her part, to lessen the burden of guilt. She has a lot of shame to deal with and anything that can help minimize her guilt she will try.
Lastly, you don't have to Divorce to get to where you need to be. But you do need to work on your healing. It's your choice to allow her to bring you into fights and arguments. It's your choice to listen to her vent to your about her relationship with the OM. Instead of telling her you don't want to hear about him. What actions can you take when she brings him up? One thing you can do is say, "I'm done with this conversation and walk away, every single time she mention his name or reference their relationship", and I mean every single time. She will get the message.
Stop putting all the burden on her to help you heal and respect your boundaries. Come up with tangible actions/consequences to her disrespect and hold her to them. Stop being afraid of her reactions, and learn to respect yourself more than her reactions.
Joejoe
Listen, your WW reality is different from yours. In her reality she was dating this man and in a relationship. You might not like it or want to hear it, but it's her truth.
Why do she want to go to counseling? Why did she tell she wanted to go? If she hasn't told you ask! Most likely it's for her own justification. It's a selfish move on her part, to lessen the burden of guilt. She has a lot of shame to deal with and anything that can help minimize her guilt she will try.
Lastly, you don't have to Divorce to get to where you need to be. But you do need to work on your healing. It's your choice to allow her to bring you into fights and arguments. It's your choice to listen to her vent to your about her relationship with the OM. Instead of telling her you don't want to hear about him. What actions can you take when she brings him up? One thing you can do is say, "I'm done with this conversation and walk away, every single time she mention his name or reference their relationship", and I mean every single time. She will get the message.
Stop putting all the burden on her to help you heal and respect your boundaries. Come up with tangible actions/consequences to her disrespect and hold her to them. Stop being afraid of her reactions, and learn to respect yourself more than her reactions.
Joejoe
I have asked why she wants to go to counseling. Her response is to work on having a better relationship. Not necessarily to save the marriage. I know that counseling will be only for her to justify why she was having an affair and to justify that she believes I never truly loved her. Maybe to convince me I would be better off without her. These are things she has told me in the recent past. So counseling would be more for her justifications than it would be for me.
I do believe that her respect and idea of me is so low that she feels like counseling will also help me not be angry about the split.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 06:23 PM
They also want to go to counseling to "check the box" and to show to other people that "they did everytihing they could to save the marriage". It is a VERY selfish desire and has nothing to do with you or with benefitiing the family or the MR. It's all part of her exit strategy because she wants people to like her and not see her as the low-down cheater that she is once this is all said and done. My wife was in a very similar place right after she hit me with the initial BD (in the space before i became a regular poster here). Very much wanted to find a counselor, any counselor, to "help us find a way forward" and "see if we should even be together" is, I think, the way she put it. Nothing about working on our MR or being dedicated to saving it. If she ever does "turn", one of the signs will be the way she talks about MC-ing and her willingness to undertake it explcitly and unreservedly as a means to save the MR. Right now, yours is obviously nowhere near that. She's still scheming to be with OM.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 06:32 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
They also want to go to counseling to "check the box" and to show to other people that "they did everytihing they could to save the marriage". It is a VERY selfish desire and has nothing to do with you or with benefitiing the family or the MR. It's all part of her exit strategy because she wants people to like her and not see her as the low-down cheater that she is once this is all said and done. My wife was in a very similar place right after she hit me with the initial BD (in the space before i became a regular poster here). Very much wanted to find a counselor, any counselor, to "help us find a way forward" and "see if we should even be together" is, I think, the way she put it. Nothing about working on our MR or being dedicated to saving it. If she ever does "turn", one of the signs will be the way she talks about MC-ing and her willingness to undertake it explcitly and unreservedly as a means to save the MR. Right now, yours is obviously nowhere near that. She's still scheming to be with OM.
Very true and sounds just like my WW. I think she is trying to speed up the process so she can get out and move forward with OM. The way she speaks makes it sound like she is hoping he doesn't find someone else in the mean time. She even mentioned that we would only need to go twice. How convenient is that. Only go twice? Laughable
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by phnix
I have asked why she wants to go to counseling. Her response is to work on having a better relationship. Not necessarily to save the marriage. I know that counseling will be only for her to justify why she was having an affair and to justify that she believes I never truly loved her. Maybe to convince me I would be better off without her. These are things she has told me in the recent past. So counseling would be more for her justifications than it would be for me.
I do believe that her respect and idea of me is so low that she feels like counseling will also help me not be angry about the split.
I do believe that her respect and idea of me is so low that she feels like counseling will also help me not be angry about the split.
Work on having a better relationship is a good thing IMO. The way things have been the last couple months I'd be surprised if she 180'd and was all in to save the MR. If she brings it up again, maybe ask for clarification. Going to MC to have a better relationship could mean trying to salvage the marriage in my opinion. Make sure you are communicating clearly to her and that you understand what she is saying. Obviously you aren't going to attend MC to check a box for her, but if she says to have a better relationship with you and she means it romantically then you should go.
Have you read my thread? I was in a similar position a year ago.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Originally Posted by phnix
I have asked why she wants to go to counseling. Her response is to work on having a better relationship. Not necessarily to save the marriage. I know that counseling will be only for her to justify why she was having an affair and to justify that she believes I never truly loved her. Maybe to convince me I would be better off without her. These are things she has told me in the recent past. So counseling would be more for her justifications than it would be for me.
I do believe that her respect and idea of me is so low that she feels like counseling will also help me not be angry about the split.
I do believe that her respect and idea of me is so low that she feels like counseling will also help me not be angry about the split.
Work on having a better relationship is a good thing IMO. The way things have been the last couple months I'd be surprised if she 180'd and was all in to save the MR. If she brings it up again, maybe ask for clarification. Going to MC to have a better relationship could mean trying to salvage the marriage in my opinion. Make sure you are communicating clearly to her and that you understand what she is saying. Obviously you aren't going to attend MC to check a box for her, but if she says to have a better relationship with you and she means it romantically then you should go.
Have you read my thread? I was in a similar position a year ago.
I have not read your thread but I will do it.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 08:20 PM
They also want to go to counseling to "check the box" and to show to other people that "they did everytihing they could to save the marriage". It is a VERY selfish desire and has nothing to do with you or with benefitiing the family or the MR. It's all part of her exit strategy because she wants people to like her and not see her as the low-down cheater that she is once this is all said and done. My wife was in a very similar place right after she hit me with the initial BD (in the space before i became a regular poster here). Very much wanted to find a counselor, any counselor, to "help us find a way forward" and "see if we should even be together" is, I think, the way she put it. Nothing about working on our MR or being dedicated to saving it. If she ever does "turn", one of the signs will be the way she talks about MC-ing and her willingness to undertake it explcitly and unreservedly as a means to save the MR. Right now, yours is obviously nowhere near that. She's still scheming to be with OM.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 09:36 PM
P,
1. Counseling usually only works if there's a commitment to have no contact with the OM.
2. If she keeps asking about counseling, that means you haven't clearly stated your requirements for going. Next time she ask, you say, "I'm going to.counseling if there's a commitment to our M, if you aren't willing to do that, stop asking me about going to counseling". That clearly define your terms. If she doesn't respect that kill the conversation, and make it a boundary. Here's a place to gain respect and hold her too a boundary, this counseling situation and her talking about the OM to you are both good places to hold her to a boundary.
If one of these conversations happen again, I'm hoping to see a comment from you stating that you got up and walked away. With a statement like. "I told you my terms dealing with those situations and you seem incapable of respecting that so I'm leaving this conversation. Get up and leave.
Joejoe
1. Counseling usually only works if there's a commitment to have no contact with the OM.
2. If she keeps asking about counseling, that means you haven't clearly stated your requirements for going. Next time she ask, you say, "I'm going to.counseling if there's a commitment to our M, if you aren't willing to do that, stop asking me about going to counseling". That clearly define your terms. If she doesn't respect that kill the conversation, and make it a boundary. Here's a place to gain respect and hold her too a boundary, this counseling situation and her talking about the OM to you are both good places to hold her to a boundary.
If one of these conversations happen again, I'm hoping to see a comment from you stating that you got up and walked away. With a statement like. "I told you my terms dealing with those situations and you seem incapable of respecting that so I'm leaving this conversation. Get up and leave.
Joejoe
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/08/20 10:50 PM
Now, "JJ", you know my W may say she is committed just to get me to go but I do believe she is pushing harder for us to go since the new year. I'll be quiet honest, I do so much better when I am not with or around her.
She likes to also say that she is moving out because I have asked her too. Well, you darn right I did, you admitted to having sex in his new home 3 days before Christmas, while I was coaching a game. She has tried her best to manipulate me, stonewall, and gaslight me this entire time.
I think in time I will be better off no matter what happens. The wisdom from reading and working on myself and things that have held me back will be worth it in the end.
She likes to also say that she is moving out because I have asked her too. Well, you darn right I did, you admitted to having sex in his new home 3 days before Christmas, while I was coaching a game. She has tried her best to manipulate me, stonewall, and gaslight me this entire time.
I think in time I will be better off no matter what happens. The wisdom from reading and working on myself and things that have held me back will be worth it in the end.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 01:58 PM
Well yesterday she decided to start taking a yoga class at the gym where the OM works out. Seems like another way of showing disrespect toward me. Don't know. My really close friend and mentor has advised me that I need to file for D. He thinks it is the only way I will heel and gain respect back for myself.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 02:00 PM
You know where I stand P.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
You know where I stand P.
Well, I sent her a text this morning saying she needed to move out ASAP. She has got to go. She sent me back some really ugly text, She is being investigated with her job and guess what she is blaming it all on me and says she hates me for ruining her life. Said she is filing for divorce as soon as she is done dealing with her union lawyer. She said she wouldn't move out until she contacted a personal lawyer.
I just validated everything she said and it pissed her off even more. I thought validation was supposed to ease the tension. lol
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by phnix
Well yesterday she decided to start taking a yoga class at the gym where the OM works out. Seems like another way of showing disrespect toward me. Don't know. My really close friend and mentor has advised me that I need to file for D. He thinks it is the only way I will heel and gain respect back for myself.
I will say something that used to be said a lot here. How do you feel about open marriages? Guess what, you are in an open marriage - not by choice.
I know this is probably against DB, but what she is doing is akin to emotional abuse. If she was being physical abusive would you let it continue? Would just act as if you are getting on with your life while this happens?
You are going through f the trauma of infidelity. Unfortunately, it will take a long time to get over this. You CAN DO it. You need to be prepared for the fact that the D isn't a quick fix to instantly get your respect back. It will be a step along the way. An important step.
As far your W suggesting counseling. I don't even know where to begin. I can't tell if she's legitimately messing or legitimately confused? I think you have a long way before thinking about counseling. It seems that she doesn't want to do the work prior to going to counseling.
joejoe1 has it right.
I can't remember - do you have a lawyer yet? Because if she's ranting about getting a lawyer, it's great to say have your lawyer contact my lawyer.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 02:45 PM
Yes, I have a lawyer. I saw him 4 months ago and retained him. I haven't been back to him since but he is willing to do the divorce for $2800 which is awesome. My wife saw a lawyer in anther county and he wanted $8000 to do the divorce.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 03:43 PM
I think things will be so much better once she moves out. The level of disrespect along the way has been well documented and she has lived it and put me through all of it. She will have to some day feel the pain, regret, and guilt from what she has done.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 03:57 PM
P,
Didn’t we discuss dozens of times to stop asking her to move out?
Didn’t we discuss dozens of times to stop asking her to move out?
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 03:57 PM
Don’t validate $hitty behavior from her.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 04:38 PM
I can tell you want to save this. My advice is to quit telling her to move out. You've told her so many times that it is just showing her that she hurts you still and you are prodding her to file. She doesn't have to move out.
Her going to the same gym as OM? Well don't y'all live in a small town? I wouldn't give it a second thought.
That's right. You won't know for sure for a long time. I think your pain comes out towards her in negative ways most of the time and she fires back every time. If you want to save it I think you need to 180 here.
I know many will think I'm being too soft, I'm not advocating for you enabling her.
Is your W walking away from you and couldn't take the fights anymore and found an affair? What started the affair?
Her going to the same gym as OM? Well don't y'all live in a small town? I wouldn't give it a second thought.
Quote
Now, "JJ", you know my W may say she is committed just to get me to go but I do believe she is pushing harder for us to go since the new year.
That's right. You won't know for sure for a long time. I think your pain comes out towards her in negative ways most of the time and she fires back every time. If you want to save it I think you need to 180 here.
I know many will think I'm being too soft, I'm not advocating for you enabling her.
Is your W walking away from you and couldn't take the fights anymore and found an affair? What started the affair?
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 04:53 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
I can tell you want to save this. My advice is to quit telling her to move out. You've told her so many times that it is just showing her that she hurts you still and you are prodding her to file. She doesn't have to move out.
Her going to the same gym as OM? Well don't y'all live in a small town? I wouldn't give it a second thought.
That's right. You won't know for sure for a long time. I think your pain comes out towards her in negative ways most of the time and she fires back every time. If you want to save it I think you need to 180 here.
I know many will think I'm being too soft, I'm not advocating for you enabling her.
Is your W walking away from you and couldn't take the fights anymore and found an affair? What started the affair?
Her going to the same gym as OM? Well don't y'all live in a small town? I wouldn't give it a second thought.
Quote
Now, "JJ", you know my W may say she is committed just to get me to go but I do believe she is pushing harder for us to go since the new year.
That's right. You won't know for sure for a long time. I think your pain comes out towards her in negative ways most of the time and she fires back every time. If you want to save it I think you need to 180 here.
I know many will think I'm being too soft, I'm not advocating for you enabling her.
Is your W walking away from you and couldn't take the fights anymore and found an affair? What started the affair?
The affair was started because her emotional needs were not being met. I was never around. I coach so I am gone most of the time. Days off or on the weekends I would play a lot of golf. We never ever had fights or arguments. Intimacy had gone down as well and as you can tell from my story this is a big one for my wife. If she could have it her way she would be intimate everyday. She even suggested us doing an everyday challenge a few years back.
It is hard to see this thing being saved without me losing my sanity because she has not and will not end her affair. If it were to be saved it is going to take us splitting up and eventually getting back together once we work on ourselves. I have begun fantasizing somewhat about the idea of being single. She is going to have to experience real life being single and with this guy for her to ever wake up and see reality and what this has done to our family.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 05:32 PM
Quote
The affair was started because her emotional needs were not being met. I was never around. I coach so I am gone most of the time. Days off or on the weekends I would play a lot of golf. We never ever had fights or arguments. Intimacy had gone down as well and as you can tell from my story this is a big one for my wife. If she could have it her way she would be intimate everyday. She even suggested us doing an everyday challenge a few years back.
It is hard to see this thing being saved without me losing my sanity because she has not and will not end her affair. If it were to be saved it is going to take us splitting up and eventually getting back together
It is hard to see this thing being saved without me losing my sanity because she has not and will not end her affair. If it were to be saved it is going to take us splitting up and eventually getting back together
P, other than the part about being a coach, you could have cut and pasted your description of your MR and your W into my own early threads and no one would know the difference. My MR was very much an intimacy-starved and SSM, and my W was very much a "physical touch" LL and high sex-drive... It is great that you realize that and even better that you are starting to realize there is no path back for the two of you that does not involve some level of separation. I offer the following, however:
Do NOT blame yourself or put 100% of the burden of the failed MR on you because "I neglected her." I made the same mistake early on and, despite being unhelpful and in fact even counterproductive in the context of reconciliation, it is just flat out not true! When I was shaken out of my lethargic fog by DB, and subsequently came to the realization that things i had done may have so badly hurt someone that i cared so much about, and in the process destroyed the most important relationship in my life, I was devastated... it was literally the worst psychic pain i had ever felt...it was actually physical, like knife in the chest (As I believe i wrote about at the time.) But... the thing is, it was NOT all my fault, even as your situation is NOT all yoir fault. Marriage is a partnership... a two-way relationship... for better or worse, and both I and my W and you and your W walked the path that got you to this horrible place... TOGETHER. Except in outlying cases of severe physical abuse and the like, It takes neglect and lack of communication and isolation and selfishness by BOTH spouses for a MR to become so damaged. There were undoubtedly numerous exit ramps on the highway to hell you two travelled... that BOTH of you neglected to take. So, yeah, own your side of the street, apoligize and take responsibility (once, and in a manly fashion, at least until such time as you make it to MC) if you must (and it seems like you already have) and then MOVE ON... but don't beat yourself up continually and feel/act like this whole thing is exclusively your fault because that is JUST. NOT. ACCURATE, Your W made the decision to step outside of the MR... and THAT is on her... NOT on you. Maybe you need to meditate daily and have a mantra: "I did not force my W to commit adultery... I did not force my W to commit adultery... etc etc"...
Also, you need to just be done with her... right now... and go completely dark. As others have noted, you have repeatedly asked her to leave and she has repeatedly flipped you the bird... at least figuratively. The simple fact of the matter is that you cannot physically force her to leave. You can, however, go dark, even while she is in the house, and only communicate with her (in a calm, confident, upbeat fashion) when absolutely necessary (kids, finances), and, at all other times, let her seeing you livie your awesome new life without her... because you ARE having an awesome new life...Which means you can't fake it... well, maybe fake it till you make it a little in terms of your cheerful demeanor... but in terms of self improvement ABSOLUTELY getting out of the house as much as possible while she is there and doing FUN, awesome things that help you grow as a person. Involve your kids as well-- they need some happy moments in this difficult time. But just ignore the HELL out of her for the time being. I have repeatedly written on here that, in WW terms, "She will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away". In my own sitch, my journey to that "Walking away" point was far from conventional, and I in no way engineered it or forced it... it was simply an act of divine providence and a product of the path I walked to that point... a path which included massive 180s and significant GALs and a whole whole whole lot of living that did NOT include her. Your own path is very cloudy to me... I am not sure how, if ever, your R with your W will get to that point, and if she does it is almost certainly months if not years away... but I DO know damned well that it will certainly never get there unless you LET HER GO, go DARK to her, and start living your own life for YOU and improving yourself in the most awesome ways possible to turn yourself into AMOAFWL... if you do that, it is pretty much gauranteed that, relationship wise, whoever you eventually end up with, it wont be any ol' damned fool... it will prolly be somebody pretty awesome... and your W will never get to that point (even if she is still capable of it) until you drop the rope and cut the cord!
You can have an awesome and amazing life... with or without her! But the only part of that equation you control is YOU! BE THE BEST YOU YOU CAN BE AND FORGET ABOUT THIS CHEATING WW OF YOURS... she is not the girl you fell in love with and married.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 05:40 PM
Thanks hoosjim!!!!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 07:06 PM
Alright, so you texted (really?) telling her to leave. She said no. Now what are you doing to do P? This is why we are constantly saying DO NOT MAKE THREATS UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO BACK THEM UP. Because otherwise you look weak and powerless, and even cowardly if you back down. You need to come up with a plan of action that doesn't involve asking her to do anything, and you need to follow through on it. Actions, not words.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
Alright, so you texted (really?) telling her to leave. She said no. Now what are you doing to do P? This is why we are constantly saying DO NOT MAKE THREATS UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO BACK THEM UP. Because otherwise you look weak and powerless, and even cowardly if you back down. You need to come up with a plan of action that doesn't involve asking her to do anything, and you need to follow through on it. Actions, not words.
My plan at this point:
1. Today my check at the end of the month will be going into another account I set up direct deposit.
2. Go Dark only answer text about kids
3. Take my phone off of her phone account and get my individual account.
4. 180’s and GAL - I spent the night with oldest son in Statesboro Tuesday. She did not like it.
5. She is living in another room and lock has been changed on MBR door.
6. House will be for Sell starting next week and Realtor will be looking at the house to give me advice on selling it myself.
7. File for D when I’m ready and very close to being ready. Spoke with lawyer today about situation concerning her employment and if she was to lose her job.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 07:41 PM
P,
You live in GA? I will be in GA/Augusta next week for work.
You are getting a lot of advice ranging in different directions. I was getting the same thing when I got here. What I had to do was try each and see which person information worked the best for me and my sitch.
I think you need to do the same. I really like the list you have above. Its a great starting point.
Stop responding and reacting to all her antics. Even when she's right in front of you, learn how to not react. That tore my W up. When her actions were no longer affecting me, her first reactions were anger towards me and antagonist things. And when I didn't react to those actions, she started to distance herself and when I kept moving forward, I think she started to see, I was just putting on a show. But I took for me to walk thru all those test (I will call them test) before I start to see any credible changes. That took about a month an half of consistency. I didn't argue or react to her for over a month and that caused her to rethink her actions. That timeframe won't be the same for all sitch's, but no matter what I had to start and so do you.
Joejoe
You live in GA? I will be in GA/Augusta next week for work.
You are getting a lot of advice ranging in different directions. I was getting the same thing when I got here. What I had to do was try each and see which person information worked the best for me and my sitch.
I think you need to do the same. I really like the list you have above. Its a great starting point.
Stop responding and reacting to all her antics. Even when she's right in front of you, learn how to not react. That tore my W up. When her actions were no longer affecting me, her first reactions were anger towards me and antagonist things. And when I didn't react to those actions, she started to distance herself and when I kept moving forward, I think she started to see, I was just putting on a show. But I took for me to walk thru all those test (I will call them test) before I start to see any credible changes. That took about a month an half of consistency. I didn't argue or react to her for over a month and that caused her to rethink her actions. That timeframe won't be the same for all sitch's, but no matter what I had to start and so do you.
Joejoe
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by joejoe1
P,
You live in GA? I will be in GA/Augusta next week for work.
You are getting a lot of advice ranging in different directions. I was getting the same thing when I got here. What I had to do was try each and see which person information worked the best for me and my sitch.
I think you need to do the same. I really like the list you have above. Its a great starting point.
Stop responding and reacting to all her antics. Even when she's right in front of you, learn how to not react. That tore my W up. When her actions were no longer affecting me, her first reactions were anger towards me and antagonist things. And when I didn't react to those actions, she started to distance herself and when I kept moving forward, I think she started to see, I was just putting on a show. But I took for me to walk thru all those test (I will call them test) before I start to see any credible changes. That took about a month an half of consistency. I didn't argue or react to her for over a month and that caused her to rethink her actions. That timeframe won't be the same for all sitch's, but no matter what I had to start and so do you.
Joejoe
You live in GA? I will be in GA/Augusta next week for work.
You are getting a lot of advice ranging in different directions. I was getting the same thing when I got here. What I had to do was try each and see which person information worked the best for me and my sitch.
I think you need to do the same. I really like the list you have above. Its a great starting point.
Stop responding and reacting to all her antics. Even when she's right in front of you, learn how to not react. That tore my W up. When her actions were no longer affecting me, her first reactions were anger towards me and antagonist things. And when I didn't react to those actions, she started to distance herself and when I kept moving forward, I think she started to see, I was just putting on a show. But I took for me to walk thru all those test (I will call them test) before I start to see any credible changes. That took about a month an half of consistency. I didn't argue or react to her for over a month and that caused her to rethink her actions. That timeframe won't be the same for all sitch's, but no matter what I had to start and so do you.
Joejoe
Yes I live in Ga!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/09/20 09:46 PM
JJ, how long will you be in Augusta? I have games next Tuesday, Friday, and Saturday.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 12:53 AM
Do you guys think it’s ok for her to go out to dinner with me and my son? Hard to tell her no especially after my son’s basketball game. At least her entire family and my family are at his games. He is getting a lot of support. They all know what may be coming down the road.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 01:31 AM
So P I just went and looked at your list of goals from today. Interesting how number 2 is going dark. Wondering how going dark and having dinner coincide with one another?
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 02:29 AM
D@mn this is tough. I didn’t make an objection because our son wanted her to go. I guess I could tell her that we need to take turns taking him out to eat. I told her earlier that I wanted to take him out and she invites herself after the game.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 03:07 AM
I’ve got a very close friend that lives in another state. I respect him very much and he is a devoted Christian family man. His advice for me is to get a divorce ASAP. One point he makes that really scares me is about my son. He thinks that my 13yr old son has already told me things like, “You only care about mom and that I let her tell me what to do etc..”. He thinks my son will eventually lose respect for me and in turn will choose to live with my W because he thinks she is the stronger person.
This really scares me as I plan on having him with me the next 4 years and being able to coach him and spend a lot of time with him. In reading, “Love must be tough”, Dobson cites several situations where the kids end up resenting and not respecting the spouse that put up with the affair. In some instances they blamed the betrayed spouse due to not taking action.
What are your thoughts on this? Anyone experience this and I guess there is no real way of knowing what may happen down the road? I have been truthful with both sons and have excluded details. Unfortunately he has heard our conversations so he knows some details in regards to them talking and meeting up but no specific details. I’ve tried my best to keep that from him and to never mention it while in the home.
This really scares me as I plan on having him with me the next 4 years and being able to coach him and spend a lot of time with him. In reading, “Love must be tough”, Dobson cites several situations where the kids end up resenting and not respecting the spouse that put up with the affair. In some instances they blamed the betrayed spouse due to not taking action.
What are your thoughts on this? Anyone experience this and I guess there is no real way of knowing what may happen down the road? I have been truthful with both sons and have excluded details. Unfortunately he has heard our conversations so he knows some details in regards to them talking and meeting up but no specific details. I’ve tried my best to keep that from him and to never mention it while in the home.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 03:59 AM
Quote
This really scares me as I plan on having him with me the next 4 years and being able to coach him and spend a lot of time with him. In reading, “Love must be tough”, Dobson cites several situations where the kids end up resenting and not respecting the spouse that put up with the affair. In some instances they blamed the betrayed spouse due to not taking action.
Sandi2 has not chimed in here in a while, but i do remember posting something on just this point on my own thread. She noted that she had seen a couple of instances just like Dotson cited... where the H had either not stood up to the WW or where the H had covered for the W and hid the truth during the divorce... leading to the children, when grown, resenting the father and having a strained, damaged relationship with him.
I wish I or someone had seen this before you agreed to let her come with you.. because she shouldn't have come. It really $uck$, but you need to be strong here... take some pain and discomfort now for the good of the kids down the road. Your W is the adulteress here... no matter how culpable you both were in getting the MR to this point, SHE is the one who actually stepped out, committed that very serious betrayal against both you AND your sons and effectively ended the MR. To show the strength you need to show your boys, and to show your W she cant guilt you or pressure you and to hopefully get back some respect, you DO NOT "play family" with her. She wants to sleep with other men? She wants a divorce? Then fine... splitting the kids and missing out on fun/warm/cozy family events and dinners, and possibly having them think less of her are part and parcel of that-- those are the natural consequence of her actions. She or her family wants to know why? You tell them just that! The boys want to know why? You tell them Mom has met someone else and has decided she would rather be with him than stay with the family... Even though you don't go out of the way to trash your W to your sons, or to provide all the gory details, you also don't go out of the way to hide the truth from them either-- they will resent you for it later.
I remember very well my WW and I having a discussion related to those very points, when she was in the throws of the affair and still plotting and anticipating her escape with OM. The subject turned to our children and what we would tell them. I indicated that I was not going to lie to our boys (then 16 and almost 18). She said "Well, why wouldn't you just want everyone to be happy?!" To which i replied "So you expect them to be happy that their family is being broken up?" She also said, somewhat smugly; "Well, if that's the case, then we'll just have to tell them the whole truth, about both sides." (Meaning including about my "neglect" of her-- to which i had of course somewhat tearfully "owned" and apologized for just a few weeks prior). Thankfully, by then i had "gotten my sea-legs" and was standing on firmer, DB-based ground and was regularly on these boards getting reams of good advice from Sandi2 and artista and others. I looked her dead in the eye and said, completely calmly and flatly: "I have absolutely no problem with that. Lets bring them in and tell them everything!" And that's the last we ever heard of THAT nonsense! To think that I would have any problem owning up to my side of the road, or that i would be afraid of revealing that information, compared to the infidelity that she had committed. Simply no comparison! But that is the fantasy world in which WWs live! My boys, as yours are, are old enough to know the truth, and old enough to know right from wrong. If you buckle in the face of your wife's wrongdoing, they WILL remember it.
In sum: Dont let her or her family "guilt" you into playing family! And don't hide the truth from your boys or cover for your WW!
Infidelity/adultery is deception and betrayal and pain and broken homes/families... THAT is the reality. And she needs a great big dose of it. Your kids will pull through it just fine... as long as you are the strong, decisive, calm, confident man, father and role model you need to be for them.
Best of luck, as always, P. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 04:33 AM
P,
I will be in Augusta for two weeks.
Yes, your son is looking for you too be strong. He's looking for you to have respect for yourself.
I disagree with a D helping you gain respect. You can get a D and still be disrespected by her. Only your actions will help you heal. If you file for a D without changing your habits and the way you interact with her than you will be in the exact same place as before D.
I have a friend, I have been giving him advice. He filed for D in Nov 18, it was finalized before that year was over. Until this eay she still comes around when she wants and has a hold on his emotions. He still have R talks with her and ask her what she's doing and who she's talking too. She's on her I can't count the number BF and might be pregnant and he's upset. I told him, why are you bothered, you are D. He's slowly coming around, but he's been D over a year now and still is hooked. He's had GFs and even dropped one because she came back, with no remorse, but just by her coming around again he dropped his GF. They barely even touched and he was ready to change his whole life. Then she just stop coming around, he found she had a new BF. He's now looking crazy asking his GF too come back. So now he's looking weak too two different women.
Respect is demanded!!!
It's going to be your frame of mind and not a piece of paper that help you gain respect.
Joejoe
I will be in Augusta for two weeks.
Yes, your son is looking for you too be strong. He's looking for you to have respect for yourself.
I disagree with a D helping you gain respect. You can get a D and still be disrespected by her. Only your actions will help you heal. If you file for a D without changing your habits and the way you interact with her than you will be in the exact same place as before D.
I have a friend, I have been giving him advice. He filed for D in Nov 18, it was finalized before that year was over. Until this eay she still comes around when she wants and has a hold on his emotions. He still have R talks with her and ask her what she's doing and who she's talking too. She's on her I can't count the number BF and might be pregnant and he's upset. I told him, why are you bothered, you are D. He's slowly coming around, but he's been D over a year now and still is hooked. He's had GFs and even dropped one because she came back, with no remorse, but just by her coming around again he dropped his GF. They barely even touched and he was ready to change his whole life. Then she just stop coming around, he found she had a new BF. He's now looking crazy asking his GF too come back. So now he's looking weak too two different women.
Respect is demanded!!!
It's going to be your frame of mind and not a piece of paper that help you gain respect.
Joejoe
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 04:34 AM
And, to be clear, you can couch the positions and actions i discuss above in terms of boundaries. Example: "I won't lie to my children and I won't pretend that everything is okay when it is not" Consequence: "If you persist in your affair I will not cover for you with the boys and if they ask i will tell them the truth, and if you persist in your affair and/or we divorce, I will not 'play family' with you or have joint family events or holidays-- we will have to work out a custody/visitation/holiday schedule."
Also: "I will not raise my boys to unknowingly have a relationship with a predator/adulterer who had an affair with their mother and broke up their family." Consequece: "If you continue having a relationship with OM, I will not hide the truth of the genesis of that relationship from my sons."
There are other possibilities, as well, but make it about YOU (and, as well, your boys) and your boundaries that you will protect.
Also, I agree with JoeJoe, above, that you don't need to get a D to command respect. Live your life independently of her, go dark... even sell the house... She will leave of her own volition, there is no reason to force the D or to do the heavy lifting for her. All filing for D will do is create work for you and give her an out to say "See, He's the one who divorced ME!!!" As long as you are good at detaching and setting boundaries, you will not need to force the divorce the issue. That's not to say you should dodge it if she initiates, and you should very certainly consult and regularly talk to your lawyer to know your rights, but you really don't need to force the issue and take the initiative on the divorce in order to be strong, and command respect. And you can make that clear to your boys if they ask.
Also: "I will not raise my boys to unknowingly have a relationship with a predator/adulterer who had an affair with their mother and broke up their family." Consequece: "If you continue having a relationship with OM, I will not hide the truth of the genesis of that relationship from my sons."
There are other possibilities, as well, but make it about YOU (and, as well, your boys) and your boundaries that you will protect.
Also, I agree with JoeJoe, above, that you don't need to get a D to command respect. Live your life independently of her, go dark... even sell the house... She will leave of her own volition, there is no reason to force the D or to do the heavy lifting for her. All filing for D will do is create work for you and give her an out to say "See, He's the one who divorced ME!!!" As long as you are good at detaching and setting boundaries, you will not need to force the divorce the issue. That's not to say you should dodge it if she initiates, and you should very certainly consult and regularly talk to your lawyer to know your rights, but you really don't need to force the issue and take the initiative on the divorce in order to be strong, and command respect. And you can make that clear to your boys if they ask.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 11:32 AM
Well P in your defense it's very confusing because there is so many different pieces of advice you are getting on the board.
I can't give you anymore advice but I want to say that I hope you the best and I really hope your boys understand some day that you did the best you could with the hand you were dealt.
I can't remember your age but I think you are fairly young. Take a year or two and just focus on you and the boys. You have to get stronger. With your parents divorce and yiur Ws choices it has understandably had an effect on you. You have to get to a place where you will not tolerate people in your life that don't respect you.
I can't give you anymore advice but I want to say that I hope you the best and I really hope your boys understand some day that you did the best you could with the hand you were dealt.
I can't remember your age but I think you are fairly young. Take a year or two and just focus on you and the boys. You have to get stronger. With your parents divorce and yiur Ws choices it has understandably had an effect on you. You have to get to a place where you will not tolerate people in your life that don't respect you.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by phnix
Do you guys think it’s ok for her to go out to dinner with me and my son? Hard to tell her no especially after my son’s basketball game.
It's fine, but the key is you have to do it with zero expectations. It doesn't change anything. Personally I feel strongly that it's important for both parents to support their kids together. XW and I continued to have joint bday parties for the kids, and we both went to school functions, football games, meet-the-teacher events, etc. After S we didn't drive together, and sometimes we didn't sit together. But we were both there for them. And yes, we sometimes went and had dinner together afterwards. When you do these things just be mindful that it is for the kids.
Now that said, sometimes an LBS just falls apart every time they are around the WAS and they need to go dark to save themselves. If that is you then I would recommend that you do not have dinner with your W even for the kids, at least for a while. Tell her that you need some time and space from her and that you think it would be best not to have meals together for a while until you've done some healing.
Originally Posted by phnix
I’ve got a very close friend that lives in another state. I respect him very much and he is a devoted Christian family man. His advice for me is to get a divorce ASAP.
The purpose being what? Most LBS's that pursue D in less than a year post-BD are doing so out of a desperate attempt to either "regain control" or "wake up their spouse" or both. It accomplishes neither of those things. You've got to work on yourself and process your grief first, THEN decide if you want to pursue D.
Quote
He thinks that my 13yr old son has already told me things like, “You only care about mom and that I let her tell me what to do etc..”. He thinks my son will eventually lose respect for me and in turn will choose to live with my W because he thinks she is the stronger person. This really scares me as I plan on having him with me the next 4 years and being able to coach him and spend a lot of time with him. In reading, “Love must be tough”, Dobson cites several situations where the kids end up resenting and not respecting the spouse that put up with the affair. In some instances they blamed the betrayed spouse due to not taking action.
BD is arguably the biggest kick to the balls you can possibly receive in your life. It makes you question yourself as a person, a man, a husband, a father, a worker, a friend. You fall completely apart to begin with. At this stage your kids will see someone who is broken, without confidence, and utterly lost. That will scare and confuse them. But then you begin the slow process of rebuilding yourself. You gain back your self-respect, your sense of value and worth, your independence, and your sense of what it is to be a man. You rise above. You become the rock and the lighthouse. Your kids see someone stronger and more confident than they've ever seen before, and they will admire and respect that. So keep rebuilding yourself.
There's no magic trick here (especially not divorce), you've got to do the work. Get out and GAL. Leave your W alone. Don't talk about her to or around the kids. Be super-dad. Focus on activities that make you feel better and more confident. Don't talk about your M to friends and family, talk about your GAL activities instead. Make this all about you and the kids.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
There's no magic trick here (especially not divorce), you've got to do the work. Get out and GAL. Leave your W alone. Don't talk about her to or around the kids. Be super-dad. Focus on activities that make you feel better and more confident. Don't talk about your M to friends and family, talk about your GAL activities instead. Make this all about you and the kids.
Why do guys always start with the superdad stuff once the bomb as been dropped? Men here always talk about being attractive to women. You know what's attractive? A man who doesn't neglect his kids and is engaged with his kids. It's sad that it takes a divorce to show many men that they need to be involved in their kids lives.
I understand that for the boomers and older an engaged dad was a rarity, but times have changed.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 01:55 PM
Quote
Well P in your defense it's very confusing because there is so many different pieces of advice you are getting on the board.
When one does encounter apparently conflicting or disparate views on these boards, I always found that it was helpful to 1) Look more closely for common threads/aspects or underlying themes 2) Where possible, compare a posters sitch with your own to see how similar or different they are and 3) Test the advice against the DB-ing principles.
As to actual differing advice on P's thread-- other than you posting that you think he ought to file for D right now, and me and joejoe saying that an actual D is not necessary, I am seeing a whole lot of commonality of advice here. And even your advice that he should D right now is not really out of line with the general sentiment on here, which is that he definitely needs to separate himself from her, detach, drop the rope, go dark, etc. The only difference is in how precisely we think that should be done, and i would posit there is not even that much difference. I haven't seen anyone on here who has said "fight against a D for all your worth"... in fact, I myself have said he should consult a lawyer to protect himself, and that he should not necessarily fight a D... just that I don't think that a D is necessary for him to set good boundaries and detach and gain his respect back... let her do the heavy work on that. And that goes doubly if he is at all thinking they might get back together at some point-- make her have to do the work and be the "bad guy" by filing and recognize some of the consequences of her actions. I think MWD and the DB books, as well as Sandi2 are consistent with that course of action. We all believe the same thing: He needs some kind of separation from her-- to drop the rope, detach, go dark, stop playing family with her, regain some respect and move on with his life. The D itself wont necessarily accomplish that in a vacuum--although it certainly could-- it is just a tool, a piece of paper, a possible means to an end we all advocate.
I think for those coming here for help, nearly every poster has something to offer on here if you look closely enough. The differing perspectives are one of the things that actually makes it interesting and valuable-- but, at the end of the day, I think most of the folks on here have pretty much the same views on the fundamentals: Detach, drop the rope, don't take any disrespect, 180, GAL, work on yourself, be strong, be the "lighthouse" (for your kids, and, if you entertain the goal of reconciliation somewhere down the road, for your spouse).
We're all pulling for you, P
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by spoused2
Originally Posted by AnotherStander
There's no magic trick here (especially not divorce), you've got to do the work. Get out and GAL. Leave your W alone. Don't talk about her to or around the kids. Be super-dad. Focus on activities that make you feel better and more confident. Don't talk about your M to friends and family, talk about your GAL activities instead. Make this all about you and the kids.
Why do guys always start with the superdad stuff once the bomb as been dropped? Men here always talk about being attractive to women. You know what's attractive? A man who doesn't neglect his kids and is engaged with his kids. It's sad that it takes a divorce to show many men that they need to be involved in their kids lives.
I understand that for the boomers and older an engaged dad was a rarity, but times have changed.
Spoused2 it seems you asked and answered your own question.
The fact that men need to be reminded of this is sad but dont think for one minute that women also dont need to be reminded of it too.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 02:47 PM
Cadet,
Very well said.
Very well said.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 02:52 PM
Originally Posted by Cadet
The fact that men need to be reminded of this is sad but dont think for one minute that women also dont need to be reminded of it too.
Women need to be reminded of what exactly? I wish I knew what you were trying to say.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by spoused2
Originally Posted by Cadet
The fact that men need to be reminded of this is sad but dont think for one minute that women also dont need to be reminded of it too.
Women need to be reminded of what exactly? I wish I knew what you were trying to say.
Exactly what you said- it applies to women too.
Quote
Why do guys always start with the superdad stuff once the bomb as been dropped? Men here always talk about being attractive to women. You know what's attractive? A man who doesn't neglect his kids and is engaged with his kids. It's sad that it takes a divorce to show many men that they need to be involved in their kids lives.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
Quote
Well P in your defense it's very confusing because there is so many different pieces of advice you are getting on the board.
When one does encounter apparently conflicting or disparate views on these boards, I always found that it was helpful to 1) Look more closely for common threads/aspects or underlying themes 2) Where possible, compare a posters sitch with your own to see how similar or different they are and 3) Test the advice against the DB-ing principles.
As to actual differing advice on P's thread-- other than you posting that you think he ought to file for D right now, and me and joejoe saying that an actual D is not necessary, I am seeing a whole lot of commonality of advice here. And even your advice that he should D right now is not really out of line with the general sentiment on here, which is that he definitely needs to separate himself from her, detach, drop the rope, go dark, etc. The only difference is in how precisely we think that should be done, and i would posit there is not even that much difference. I haven't seen anyone on here who has said "fight against a D for all your worth"... in fact, I myself have said he should consult a lawyer to protect himself, and that he should not necessarily fight a D... just that I don't think that a D is necessary for him to set good boundaries and detach and gain his respect back... let her do the heavy work on that. And that goes doubly if he is at all thinking they might get back together at some point-- make her have to do the work and be the "bad guy" by filing and recognize some of the consequences of her actions. I think MWD and the DB books, as well as Sandi2 are consistent with that course of action. We all believe the same thing: He needs some kind of separation from her-- to drop the rope, detach, go dark, stop playing family with her, regain some respect and move on with his life. The D itself wont necessarily accomplish that in a vacuum--although it certainly could-- it is just a tool, a piece of paper, a possible means to an end we all advocate.
I think for those coming here for help, nearly every poster has something to offer on here if you look closely enough. The differing perspectives are one of the things that actually makes it interesting and valuable-- but, at the end of the day, I think most of the folks on here have pretty much the same views on the fundamentals: Detach, drop the rope, don't take any disrespect, 180, GAL, work on yourself, be strong, be the "lighthouse" (for your kids, and, if you entertain the goal of reconciliation somewhere down the road, for your spouse).
We're all pulling for you, P
I understand what everyone is saying. I am working on going in that direction. I constantly slip up but I also have stood up for myself. I have walked away from conversations. Last night at dinner I politely told her that I didn't care of her opinion of one of my friends and to please not interrupt me while I am telling my son a story when I was trying to make a point to him. (She interrupted and was rude in talking about him) It just takes time but I am slowly getting there. Heck my best friend has been frustrated and disappointed with me also because I have given her all the power. Its going to take time. I think I need to write down every action that I will not tolerate and read them every morning.
For Ex:
I will not text back.
I will not allow her in the MBR
I will not allow her to talk about her day. etc............
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 04:18 PM
P,
[/quote] I will not allow her to talk about her day. etc............ [/quote]
ALLOW HER!!!! Listening to her talk about her day isn't a bad thing, it's a great moment to validate her feelings. But what you don't tolerate is her telling you about OM and their R. Her placing blame on you.
If you and her are in the kitchen together and she says, "Guess what happen today, I slipped and fell and hurt my butt" you can listen to that. You can validate that. "Oh, I sorry to hear you fell down, are you ok?". If she says, "Sandra said Mary was talking about Betsy, and she said Betsy eat paint". You can listen to that. But, if she says, " My day has been horrible, people are talking about me, and the OM". Cut bait and walk away. If she says, "I was having a hard day, the OM hasn't called me all day". Cut bait and walk away.
If she says, "I wish things were better in our M, if you would of did". In this scenario you can do one of two things IMO. You can validate, by saying, "I can see how you feel that way, but it takes two for the downfall of a M". If she gets defensive, you can say, "I respect the way you feel, and you need to respect the way I feel". If she continues with the blame. Cut bait and walk away. OR, you can just walk away when the blaming start.
I like the first option, because, It places a small nugget in her head, and shows her you are willing to stand up for yourself and not accept all the fault.
Joejoe
[/quote] I will not allow her to talk about her day. etc............ [/quote]
ALLOW HER!!!! Listening to her talk about her day isn't a bad thing, it's a great moment to validate her feelings. But what you don't tolerate is her telling you about OM and their R. Her placing blame on you.
If you and her are in the kitchen together and she says, "Guess what happen today, I slipped and fell and hurt my butt" you can listen to that. You can validate that. "Oh, I sorry to hear you fell down, are you ok?". If she says, "Sandra said Mary was talking about Betsy, and she said Betsy eat paint". You can listen to that. But, if she says, " My day has been horrible, people are talking about me, and the OM". Cut bait and walk away. If she says, "I was having a hard day, the OM hasn't called me all day". Cut bait and walk away.
If she says, "I wish things were better in our M, if you would of did". In this scenario you can do one of two things IMO. You can validate, by saying, "I can see how you feel that way, but it takes two for the downfall of a M". If she gets defensive, you can say, "I respect the way you feel, and you need to respect the way I feel". If she continues with the blame. Cut bait and walk away. OR, you can just walk away when the blaming start.
I like the first option, because, It places a small nugget in her head, and shows her you are willing to stand up for yourself and not accept all the fault.
Joejoe
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by joejoe1
Quote
I will not allow her to talk about her day. etc............
ALLOW HER!!!! Listening to her talk about her day isn't a bad thing, it's a great moment to validate her feelings. But what you don't tolerate is her telling you about OM and their R. Her placing blame on you.
If you and her are in the kitchen together and she says, "Guess what happen today, I slipped and fell and hurt my butt" you can listen to that. You can validate that. "Oh, I sorry to hear you fell down, are you ok?". If she says, "Sandra said Mary was talking about Betsy, and she said Betsy eat paint". You can listen to that. But, if she says, " My day has been horrible, people are talking about me, and the OM". Cut bait and walk away. If she says, "I was having a hard day, the OM hasn't called me all day". Cut bait and walk away.
If she says, "I wish things were better in our M, if you would of did". In this scenario you can do one of two things IMO. You can validate, by saying, "I can see how you feel that way, but it takes two for the downfall of a M". If she gets defensive, you can say, "I respect the way you feel, and you need to respect the way I feel". If she continues with the blame. Cut bait and walk away. OR, you can just walk away when the blaming start.
I like the first option, because, It places a small nugget in her head, and shows her you are willing to stand up for yourself and not accept all the fault.
Joejoe
Going dark would mean no communication other than children. At this point I do not want to talk with her. She entered the room to talk about the investigation on her in her job. I told her initially that I didn't care to hear about it. Obviously the report she is talking about means she would be mentioning him. She continued to tell me. She was excited that there will be no repercussions on her. She then blamed my family for sending his wife a letter, (which she has no proof), and she went on to say no one at her job had any idea about what was going on and sort of rubbing it into my face that it was my fault and my families fault that the information got out. I simply said that I am glad your job will be fine but you are still guilty of committing adultery. She stormed out of the room using a few choice words after that.
So I really believe I do not need to talk to her. We need to be separated. She adamantly blames me for her affair being exposed and she holds a lot of resentment and anger toward me about it. This is all BS, maybe true about the way she feels about me, but I don't need to talk to her at all until she realizes she is to blame for her actions and what she has done to our family.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 05:17 PM
Quote
ALLOW HER!!!! Listening to her talk about her day isn't a bad thing, it's a great moment to validate her feelings. But what you don't tolerate is her telling you about OM and their R. Her placing blame on you.
If you and her are in the kitchen together and she says, "Guess what happen today, I slipped and fell and hurt my butt" you can listen to that. You can validate that. "Oh, I sorry to hear you fell down, are you ok?". If she says, "Sandra said Mary was talking about Betsy, and she said Betsy eat paint". You can listen to that. But, if she says, " My day has been horrible, people are talking about me, and the OM". Cut bait and walk away. If she says, "I was having a hard day, the OM hasn't called me all day". Cut bait and walk away.
If she says, "I wish things were better in our M, if you would of did". In this scenario you can do one of two things IMO. You can validate, by saying, "I can see how you feel that way, but it takes two for the downfall of a M". If she gets defensive, you can say, "I respect the way you feel, and you need to respect the way I feel". If she continues with the blame. Cut bait and walk away. OR, you can just walk away when the blaming start.
I like the first option, because, It places a small nugget in her head, and shows her you are willing to stand up for yourself and not accept all the fault.
Joejoe
If you and her are in the kitchen together and she says, "Guess what happen today, I slipped and fell and hurt my butt" you can listen to that. You can validate that. "Oh, I sorry to hear you fell down, are you ok?". If she says, "Sandra said Mary was talking about Betsy, and she said Betsy eat paint". You can listen to that. But, if she says, " My day has been horrible, people are talking about me, and the OM". Cut bait and walk away. If she says, "I was having a hard day, the OM hasn't called me all day". Cut bait and walk away.
If she says, "I wish things were better in our M, if you would of did". In this scenario you can do one of two things IMO. You can validate, by saying, "I can see how you feel that way, but it takes two for the downfall of a M". If she gets defensive, you can say, "I respect the way you feel, and you need to respect the way I feel". If she continues with the blame. Cut bait and walk away. OR, you can just walk away when the blaming start.
I like the first option, because, It places a small nugget in her head, and shows her you are willing to stand up for yourself and not accept all the fault.
Joejoe
P, joejoe's take, above, is a pretty good one and aptly describes how the dynamic should look... you would generally only cut off or refuse to talk about disrespectful or affair-related topics...unless you are at a place where you are going completely dark. Only you can decide if you are in that latter place or not, though it seems to me you are at least close and i tend to think you are probably in that place (going dark) where you need to be "done" with her unless she ends the A and shows some legitimate sincere remorse. Review Sandi2's threads and the DB-ing books on Last Resort, etc. Even if you ARE in that latter place, however, it does not mean you need to be a jerk or, in fact, even confrontational. For instance, she knows she is an adulteress... why throw that dart out there? All you need to do is to cut off the conversation as suggested in several of the posts above by me and others. Calling her adulteress is engaging with her, letting her bait you (and disrespect you). Next time, just calmly but firmly excuse yourself from the convo. Stay above the fray.
Let me ask you a question-- do you journal at all? I found journalling to be extremely helpful in my own sitch. It allows you to reflect on your progress, as well as on interactions with your W when they happen, and also to gauge what is and is not "working" both in terms of your own confidence and feeling good about yourself and, if it gets to that point, in terms of your W's positive and negative responses to you. Give it a try-- I did it daily. It helps you to get to the point where you, as Sandi2 says, are "doing what works." You want to do more of what "works" and less of what does not, and one of the best ways to figure that out is by trying different approaches, keeping track and reflecting.
Hope this helps... I think you are getting on the right track!
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by hoosjim
,
Let me ask you a question-- do you journal at all? I found journalling to be extremely helpful in my own sitch. It allows you to reflect on your progress, as well as on interactions with your W when they happen, and also to gauge what is and is not "working" both in terms of your own confidence and feeling good about yourself and, if it gets to that point, in terms of your W's positive and negative responses to you. Give it a try-- I did it daily. It helps you to get to the point where you, as Sandi2 says, are "doing what works." You want to do more of what "works" and less of what does not, and one of the best ways to figure that out is by trying different approaches, keeping track and reflecting.
Hope this helps... I think you are getting on the right track!
Let me ask you a question-- do you journal at all? I found journalling to be extremely helpful in my own sitch. It allows you to reflect on your progress, as well as on interactions with your W when they happen, and also to gauge what is and is not "working" both in terms of your own confidence and feeling good about yourself and, if it gets to that point, in terms of your W's positive and negative responses to you. Give it a try-- I did it daily. It helps you to get to the point where you, as Sandi2 says, are "doing what works." You want to do more of what "works" and less of what does not, and one of the best ways to figure that out is by trying different approaches, keeping track and reflecting.
Hope this helps... I think you are getting on the right track!
I do not journal but that makes perfect sense. I will start doing this to reflect however, I am going to "go dark". I don't think talking to her helps, I have been there and tried that for many months. Then I would discover her messaging him while in our room. For months I assumed it was just emotional and could tell in a way that she was talking to him because of information that she knew. Then I find out she went back to his home and they had sex 3 days before Christmas. This last discovery has really began to make me see her in a different way. As I looked at her last night at the game I began to feel disgusted. I have not yet had this feeling up until now. I am beginning to see that beauty means absolutely nothing and that i deserve better. I think the most important concept here is to get stronger and be more confident for myself so that I don't allow anyone to disrespect me. Self-respect brings confidence and attraction back to an individual.
Re: "Walking out of the Valley" 2.0 - 01/10/20 05:33 PM