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Posted By: Core Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 06:39 PM
Link to previous thread:
Is there hope?

Recap: BD 9/19, learned of EA with OM 10/19. Confronted, one counseling session failed. EA rediscovered, discussed 12/19. Currently living together, no known attorneys or mediation at this time. Recently discussed how long we will be in limbo with nothing solid determined. W was told I wont push my boundaries and start mediation however I would go if she sets it up. D4, S1. Daily life has minimal communication, no physical interaction.

Thank you all for the advice and pointing out when I'm off base. I believe in wearing my ring so I will do just that. In my most recent chat with W where I broke half the rules, my W has to know I'm still in pursuit and pretty much have been. If I change my method suddenly, it may seem like a game. W knows I care about her, wont file and that I'm ok living together currently while I work on myself. Do I stop pursuit from here, or give a sign I moved on other than GAL, 180s?

Was forced to talk finances yesterday, kept it brief. From here on out I stick to my plan in the other thread that I broke already. I read that limerence in EAs can last 3m to 3y. Yikes. With W already potentially being convinced to D before EA occurred, I don't have much hope for the relationship but I am battling on for myself and my kids.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 06:48 PM
Core, your actions moving forward is what matters. Don't worry about how she interprets you dropping the pursuit.

Your question of giving her a sign that you are moving on doesn't even need to be asked. Just move on and GAL - actions speak louder than words (on your side, as well as hers).

Steve talks often about the importance of GAL. Work on yourself and let her figure out her mess. You guys need space if you're going to have a chance.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 06:49 PM
Prior to getting ILYBINILWY and BD, did you know she was ready to leave?
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 07:00 PM
Thank you Jac, thats the thinking that got me here in the first place.

Steve85, we had troubling signs before BD, I just didnt know it was so serious. In 8/19 and part of 9/19 we were looking to buy a new house together. We pulled an offer and thats when this all got really serious. She looked up her ex in 9/19 the day after we pulled our offer.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 07:28 PM
Core,

I am longtime DBer (from more than 10 years ago - I can't remember my old password and changed my email) However, I must offer you a few thoughts. I was in a very similar situation to you.

1. I was once like you, I was told I wasn't good at following DB. I often broke the "rules" I didn't fully commit to the program. Why? Because I knew my wife, marriage and family better than anyone here. Guess what though I'm still married. My marriage is probably as good as ever. You asked a while back of stories of people not exactly following the rules and still being successful. That's me. It can be done.

2. You need to be careful with the advice here. I'm not saying that anyone here is malicious or wrong or doesn't have the best intentions. But I need you to understand that most of the people offering advice here are not trained professionals - either a combination of education/experience nor are they coaches trained by MWD. They just have anecdotal evidence.


3. I know for a fact at least a couple of the people posting here were the OM. That's why the seem to know a lot about the OMs

4.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Thank you Jac, thats the thinking that got me here in the first place.

Steve85, we had troubling signs before BD, I just didnt know it was so serious. In 8/19 and part of 9/19 we were looking to buy a new house together. We pulled an offer and thats when this all got really serious. She looked up her ex in 9/19 the day after we pulled our offer.


My point is that she wasn't acting unusual, then you got ILYB and BD. So don't look at "If I change my method suddenly, it may seem like a game." Just like you don't do things to manipulate her, you don't NOT do things out of fear of how she will take it. DBing isn't a game. It is getting right yourself. A healthy spouse in a healthy marriage will have a life of their own (GAL), will be self-improving (180s), and will be self-differentiated (detachment). If not.....then they are headed for a BD.
Posted By: job Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 08:18 PM
Core,

Actions speak louder than words. There is no need to tell her that you are moving on...just do it, drop the rope and live your life to the fullest.

About the advice given on the forums, we having saying around here, listen and apply what may work for you and your situation. No one has the key to the golden trinket box that says everything we advise will work in your situation. Try different things, when you find something that works, they continue doing it. If something isn't working, drop. No one knows your situation better than yourself.

No one is going to be a perfect DBer. DBing is not just about trying to save your marriage, but it is a technique that is used every day IRL. It is to help you navigate your own journey as well and learn how to react/not react to what others say or do. You can DB people that you work with, family, friends, etc. We are human and we make mistakes all of the time. The beauty of the mistakes is learning from them so that you aren't beating your head up against the brick wall all of the time. The definition of crazymaking/insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and the results are the same.

This is your time to grow and learn about yourself. It is a time to try new GAL activities and to get that old list out of things that you wanted to do and never had the time to do them. Try to remember, you can't fix her, she has to do that herself. The only person you can fix is yourself (if there are changes to be made).

Keep the focus on you as a watched pot never boils. Hang in there!

Posted By: BenB Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 08:38 PM
When it comes to advice here it seems for me that a majority of the time at least the forum is right. The first few months of me posting here, I was nowhere near convinced the recommendations here were the right things to do. I had many reasons but the one that made me post skeptic was that there must be cultural differences. I live in Sweden, surely the mentality and behavior can´t be the same here as in USA.

But every time I went with my intuition it drew her farther away. And every time I listened to the advice here, my W would react almost exactly as predicted. How I wish now that I had listened to the vets. If I knew then what I know now, my situation could perhaps have been different. But I don´t care if it´s too late now, the advice I´ve been given while here has changed me completely as a person. I´m so enjoying being Ben 2.0 in all my relationships now.

I also lied to myself. I remember posting a few months ago that I couldn´t find ways to GAL because I have the dog to take care of. Now that W moved out, I have tons of things planned all the time. Friends coming over, going to get massages, going on trips etc etc. The truth, I see now, was that I didn´t really want to GAL, I wanted to be near my W when she was home.

Just an example of how we think we ware detaching but the reality is that we tend to hold on to that rope for a long time.
Posted By: Gekko Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 10:02 PM
Core,

Sorry you're going through a rough time. Addressing your underlying anxiety issues will probably have a very positive and widespread effect on you and your sitch. Get great help with this and really work at it. Really dig in on this man.

You are struggling with the counter-intuitive nature of the advice you are getting here. I get it. But the reason the vets' advice carries so much weight is that they have seen so many sitches over the years and the same scenarios play out in similar fashion over and over and over. There are exceptions to every rule but the odds are stacked heavily against you that you have an exceptional sitch. You have been referred to Sandi's Rules. You can follow them, or you can do the opposite if you like. Here are the Anti-Sandi's Rules:

1. Pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead and implore! This turns the spouse completely off, but do it anyway!

2. Make frequent phone calls to spouse.......never let him/her be the one to call you. Try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....never say good-bye first.

3. Point out good points in marriage and try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you alone but share it anyway!

4. Follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.

5. Encourage talk about the future. Even though they don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, and they want to stay clear of that subject.

6. Ask for help from family members or friends. Discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.

7. Ask for reassurances (Show neediness and be clingy.) Don't show self-respect or self confidence.

8. Buy gifts to make "brownie points". (You can't buy his/her love and affection but try to anyway.)

9. Schedule dates together. (Pursuing.) Don't wait for later when the R is much better.

10. Spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse but do it anyway.)

11. Say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it, but say it anyway.)

12. Don't act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a
bad attitude.

13. Don't be cheerful, strong, outgoing or attractive at any time! In other words, be the worst you can be and look the worst you can look at all times.

14. Sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say – don't get busy or think of things to do. Don't go to church, or go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself.

15. When at home with your spouse, don't be scarce with your words. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "everything" and have a unpleasant expression on your face. Make it long and complicated. Get into an argument! Don't stay polite. Act like you are pouting. Don't use poise and class. Be overly talkative.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM EVERYTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are NOT giving them space and asking no questions! You don't enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are not getting a life also.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have not had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are not going to move on with your life without your spouse.

18. Be nasty, angry and cold. Don't pull back and wait to see if spouse notices - ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!! This is important! If you don't, then you have blown it.

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse unhappiness and discontentment. This will not confuse them b/c it is what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would not want to be around all the time, somebody that cannot be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see that.

20. All questions about marriage should not be put on hold, even though your spouse doesn't want to talk about it, so don't be patient.

21. Always lose your cool! Let your spouse trap you into a fight. Take her/his bait.....don't leave the room or the house for a while in order to avoid a fight.

22. Be overly enthusiastic, always over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake, and you want to look fake.

23. Argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel but argue anyway!

24. Don't be patient......be very, very impatient. Don't give your spouse space and time. If you pull back, it will draw them towards you, but don't pull back - be impatient anyway.

25. Don't listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Don't look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Interrupt them when they are speaking and don't stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really don't care about what they are saying.

26. Learn to never back off, never shut up and never walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).

27. Don't take care of yourself (don't exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).

28. Don't be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Don't read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes.

29. Know that if do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be not be noticed more than any words you can say or write, so say and write lots of words instead.

30. Openly show that you are "desperate" and "needy" when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse, but do it anyway.

31. Focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, do not focus on them.

32. Believe everything they say and 100% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared, and believe it all.

33. Give up no matter how dark or light it is or how good or bad you feel. Give up.

34. Ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse, but ask them anyway. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return, but so what.

35. Send several TM's or emails throughout the day. This is absolutely necessary.

36. It is best to get involved in the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

37. Backslide from your hard earned changes.

We are all rooting for you Core. This is tough stuff buddy. You can and will weather the storm and come out of this better than before, it will take some time for you to believe that and then feel that but it's true. Hang in there man!
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by BenB
When it comes to advice here it seems for me that a majority of the time at least the forum is right. The first few months of me posting here, I was nowhere near convinced the recommendations here were the right things to do. I had many reasons but the one that made me post skeptic was that there must be cultural differences. I live in Sweden, surely the mentality and behavior can´t be the same here as in USA.

But every time I went with my intuition it drew her farther away. And every time I listened to the advice here, my W would react almost exactly as predicted. How I wish now that I had listened to the vets. If I knew then what I know now, my situation could perhaps have been different. But I don´t care if it´s too late now, the advice I´ve been given while here has changed me completely as a person. I´m so enjoying being Ben 2.0 in all my relationships now.

I also lied to myself. I remember posting a few months ago that I couldn´t find ways to GAL because I have the dog to take care of. Now that W moved out, I have tons of things planned all the time. Friends coming over, going to get massages, going on trips etc etc. The truth, I see now, was that I didn´t really want to GAL, I wanted to be near my W when she was home.

Just an example of how we think we ware detaching but the reality is that we tend to hold on to that rope for a long time.



I was watching a Roseanne rerun and she said - we can be miserable and nothing will change or we can be happy and nothing will change. I think DB is about trying to be happy while nothing will change.

My point about the advice was that there are number of external factors that the advice never takes into account. I know some may jump on me for saying that you don't have to following the "rules." But that is not what I am saying. Core asked a question and I answered.
Posted By: BenB Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/11/19 11:30 PM
My post wasn´t to point fingers at you. I was mentioning my situation and that I regret not following the advice, ALL the advice from vets here. And from the many pages I have read that seems to be the case a majority of the times. So I´m certainly not jumping at you and claiming you´re saying don´t follow the rules. I would agree Core and anyone else here should be careful following any advice.

Perhaps I´m misunderstanding you but for me, DB has changed everything. I wouldn´t trade who I am today because of it for anything. And I´m still only 10 months in to my sitch.
Posted By: Hallzy9 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/12/19 12:23 AM
Hey Mario, wanted to touch on what you said.

A lot of our situations have similar patterns and can be considered similar, but no situation is exactly the same. What works tremendously well for one LBS may have the opposite negative effect for someone else’s sitch.

It all returns to doing what works. Implementing a change in behavior and then observing the outcome of these changes. If something is not working and is having negative repercussions stop doing it.

There are lots of people with years of experience giving great advice. But you are the one dealing with your sitch and you are the one seeing the changes and interactions, so a lot of the time it is up to you to gauge how your behavior is working. If met with positive response, keep it up. If met with a negative response. Stop.

DR should be your foundation and I have found that the phone consultations with a coach have been extremely helpful for me to figure out my own thoughts and actions, while at the same time, seeing things from a different light from the help of my coach.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/12/19 01:15 AM
GAL, 180ing on bad behavior, and being healthy and lovingly detached ALWAYS works. It may not save your marriage, but you will be better after DBing. And setup for success in your next R.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/12/19 02:04 PM
This got popular fast, thank you all for the input and support. Mario, I appreciate you signing back up and giving feedback on doing things differently. Gekko, your post is very helpful, reading many rules backwards, I can see the desperation in many. Though some seem like they could work. Job, Steve, Ben, others and lurkers out there, thank you for rooting for us.

My sitch, I KNOW we would achieve happiness together if we made it. Not think, not hope, but I know. Similar to Mario's, we would get stronger through a dark time. She dealt with my sickness, I need to deal with hers. In my anxiety, she took in anger, words that weren't true and subsequent suffering. With her current WW/WAS ways, the same is happening to me now. She dealt with my anxiety for about 3 years!

Detaching is tough but I'm nearly there. D4 has been giving hints that something is going on ("we weren't home all day, im not sure where we went", her dolls yesterday told each other "I just dont love you anymore").

Sad. Whats killing me today is the double standard. With D4, S1, if I were to tell my W to leave and stay somewhere else all while I had an EA with another woman, society, her family and mine would destroy me. Here we are, her mother, sister proven to support her and I suspect others as well, besides OM of course. As a dude with NGS of course I'll say I'm a good dude but I'm really not bad. Hard to believe over the internet but I didnt do much. My close confidant explains it as getting the death sentence for jaywalking.

Vent over, I know where I am to blame, I know I'm not responsible for her actions. Im sad at societies morals and for all you in similar sitchs.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/12/19 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Core
My sitch, I KNOW we would achieve happiness together if we made it. Not think, not hope, but I know. Similar to Mario's, we would get stronger through a dark time. She dealt with my sickness, I need to deal with hers. In my anxiety, she took in anger, words that weren't true and subsequent suffering. With her current WW/WAS ways, the same is happening to me now. She dealt with my anxiety for about 3 years!.


The problem here is you NEVER know. Many of us have been through this multiple times. The issue is not a matter of you KNOWING you would be happy staying with her, it is that you can't KNOW that she would and will be staying with you. This is where not having control over another person's happiness comes into play. Individuals have to find happiness internally. So you two could R, you could be the perfect H, and she could still be unhappy and want out again at some point down the road.

I see you trying to control things you cannot. Society. Her family. Her. Even though you say you know you can't control her, by saying you KNOW she would be happy if you stay together IS about you thinking you can control her happiness. You cannot. You get control over one person.......that is you.

Not sure if anyone has told you to buckle in for a long ride. You aren't even 3 months in yet, most sitches take many times more your current time-frame to resolve. This is a marathon, not a sprint.

And one last thing: You cannot nice her back to the MR.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/12/19 05:24 PM
Core,

Mine journey took a long time. I was a year in and I thought we were moving along and I found out that my wife was still working through things. People think that if your wife takes divorce off the table that means that she's committed to the marriage. Nope, it doesn't work like that.
The process for me was first she had an awakening or what ever and decided that she didn't want to divorce. But then she was in a holding pattern. It did take the pressure off, but it also made me more anxious and wanted to move things along. But we had to move a her speed. I had to be okay with that.

Now many spouses in our situations aren't okay with that and they become the WAS. Only you know the answer to this

I'm glad that you "know" it, but she doesn't not right now.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/12/19 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Gekko
You are struggling with the counter-intuitive nature of the advice you are getting here. I get it. But the reason the vets' advice carries so much weight is that they have seen so many sitches over the years and the same scenarios play out in similar fashion over and over and over. There are exceptions to every rule but the odds are stacked heavily against you that you have an exceptional sitch. You have been referred to Sandi's Rules. You can follow them, or you can do the opposite if you like. Here are the Anti-Sandi's Rules:


laugh That was an awesome read Gekko, I laughed my tail off at the Anti-Sandi's Rules grin It was funny because so many LBS's (me too) engaged in exactly that early on!
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/13/19 01:20 AM
Mario, if you see this, I'd love to hear more about your sitch, what it was, how you got through it.

Steve, I dont think I wanted to face it but you're right, my sitch is not looking like one of the short term ones. I held out hope, the one in my extended families past was quick and there were no threats of divorce, just the EA. Please keep calling me out on my control when you see it. I'm recognizing it more often the more I hear it.

Tonight for the first time since having kids, W has taken them out at night without letting me know they are going out, where and when they'll be back. My pursuit days ago does seem to have pushed further. Not sure if I'll see them tonight. Guess its time to get used to this. I went to counseling and took the rest of the night to relax and watch a movie. Didnt help as it was full of plenty of loss, plenty of W's caring for and loving their H's. Mine wants me out of the tribe and all wants all my resources or so I was told. She's doing little things around the house for me but I think now its out of guilt. Whatever it is, I cant control it, dont need to over think it and its definitely not a sign of reconciling. I hope not but it seems I'm on course for the big D, nothing slowing it down except the panther waiting to pounce at the perfect time to get its kill. I dont know why she hasn't scheduled mediation. I miss my kids. All this GALing is taking away so much bonding time. I'm likely to lose 50 percent of their time as it is, hard to sacrifice the little left now as a complete family.
Posted By: may22 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/13/19 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Core
Tonight for the first time since having kids, W has taken them out at night without letting me know they are going out, where and when they'll be back. My pursuit days ago does seem to have pushed further. Not sure if I'll see them tonight. Guess its time to get used to this. I went to counseling and took the rest of the night to relax and watch a movie. Didnt help as it was full of plenty of loss, plenty of W's caring for and loving their H's. Mine wants me out of the tribe and all wants all my resources or so I was told. She's doing little things around the house for me but I think now its out of guilt. Whatever it is, I cant control it, dont need to over think it and its definitely not a sign of reconciling. I hope not but it seems I'm on course for the big D, nothing slowing it down except the panther waiting to pounce at the perfect time to get its kill. I dont know why she hasn't scheduled mediation. I miss my kids. All this GALing is taking away so much bonding time. I'm likely to lose 50 percent of their time as it is, hard to sacrifice the little left now as a complete family.

Hi Core,
I know 100% where you are coming from about the little time left as a complete family. I'm having the hardest time with the holidays.

Can you GAL with the kids? I started making more plans just me and the kids (H is welcome to join and he does quite a bit) but I am trying to be more intentional about planning fun things rather than just coming home at the end of the day and going through the homework/dinner/sleep routine, or waking up on the weekend and playing it by ear. I also have developed some new rituals with both my girls and been reading together, doing crafts, etc more-- not just sitting around but having fun and trying to be present 100%. Keep your focus on them without worrying about their mom.
Posted By: job Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/13/19 10:15 AM
Mario,

I have located a Mario23 in our User List dating back to around 2011. If this is you, I will be happy to bump up your last thread so that others can read your thread.


Core, sorry for the hijack.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/13/19 01:39 PM
May, that's a good idea. I can take the kids Xmas shopping or to the library some of these nights. Might be good for all of us. Before BD, I often tried to get W out of the house to give her time and space from full time mom duties but she'd rarely take it and I'd get little 1-1 time with the kids. She still has a push present (trip away from home) from after having our first child she has yet to use! This'll get me some much desired 1-2 time with the kids.

We barely talk whatsoever and distance ourselves most nights at home. I'm not sure how we are supposed to even be "friends" or coparents if she will talk about almost nothing, hide her plans with the kids and talk solely about the kids if we do talk. Almost like she is reading all the DB rules. Anyone else deal with this? My D4 talks to me more in a night than my W has in a month. She's GALing and picking up old hobbies. Starting to seem more and more like an early MLC. If this is a WW/WAS/MLC, the actions for the LBS are still the same, correct? Follow the rules, 180, GAL, read about attraction etc.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/13/19 01:41 PM
Correct. MLC. WAW. WW. The prescription is the same, with maybe a little more tough love for a WW.
Posted By: job Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/13/19 02:01 PM
Steve is correct. You would do the exact same things that you would for someone in MLC, i.e., give them space and time and keep the focus on you and your children. Be sure to watch your finances, i.e., bank accounts and credit cards.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/14/19 12:59 PM
I've been reading more about attraction, how it all connects in some of our situations. As I redevelop these qualities, I'm not sure how to use them.

Confidence - my W will only talk to me about the kids. She doesn't see me out and about being confident. Per DB rules, I'm supposed to not initiate chats. That leaves me with what ways to show confidence other than posture and body language around the kids?

Assertiveness - same as above.

Integrity - she knows I have this in spades

Flirting - if she hates me and I'm not supposed to pursue, how am I supposed to flirt or compliment?

Sense of humour - My heart is broken, my soul and lifeforce sucked up in one of those things ghost busters capture spirits in. I'm mostly a shell filled with a deep sadness. Not sure how to be funny and think quick.

Witty, intelligence - if we don't talk, she won't know.

Strength - I've my new strength gains and am cut again but its not like I can walk around without a shirt on, or pick her up without her feeling uncomfortable. If she's not my wife in spirit technically her and and I may perceive any kind of touch as harassment.

Leadership - I left my work role in which I was a leader and had power. Family leadership is talked about but I dont understand without examples. What are examples of leading a family?

At this point, all I feel I can do and I've done is have an open posture, kill off my anxiety vibes, exercise in our main room and use kids as weights. She watched me one time. Talk to the kids with humour, assertiveness and confidence. Help D4 with her confiedence. This woman has always been hard to talk to even when we were friends. Do I break the DB rule and take the lead on talking?
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/14/19 01:29 PM
Have the confidence that you'll get through this and come out stronger on the other side...whatever side that is. If you have confidence in yourself and your ability to handle life's curveballs you will react differently to certain things and people will notice. If your posture, body language, tone of voice, language are improving around the kids she will notice.

Flirting - you don't have to flirt with your wife just yet. Flirt a little with strangers - over time it will help build confidence too.

Sense of humour - even in the worst times people have the ability to laugh. Again, just be yourself you don't have to reinvent yourself into Dave Chapelle. Just try and find the humour in the little things each day.

Strength - this isn't just physical strength. Show that you are emotionally strong...learn how to deal with stress, become more resilient.

Leadership - taking care of things that need to be taken care of. It's not about having power necessarily, Just take the lead in things you may not have done before.

NO NO NO - you don't take the lead on talking. Let the cat come to you.

Lastly - I'm past the year mark in my situation and things only got better within the last month. I'm patient my nature but never experienced anything like this before. And you know what, better just means I see changes in her coming back to herself and our interactions are way more pleasant. It doesn't mean we are going to get back together...I don't know what will happen but either way I'll be ok.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/14/19 01:34 PM
C,

First I want to say I am really sorry you're going through this right now.

I know it's early on for you but you have to start to understand that these changes are for you for future relationships. Now a future relationship could be with your ex just likely not now.

You could turn into James Dean or James Bond overnight and it likely wouldn't matter.

Also, just so you are aware that is not the strength you are reading about. The strength you are reading about is the important strength. It is the ability to let go of someone you love. It is the ability to walk away from someone who is unfaithful to you. It is the ability to be a rock for your children in these tough times. It is the ability to say I love and value myself enough to let someone treat me this way.

Chin up my man I know this is really hard. I remember I couldn't handle watching Christmas commercials because they were all ridiculously family oriented.

You will lead a normal life again no matter what happens.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/14/19 10:22 PM
Jac and LH, thanks for the input! I've read up a bit on both your sitchs, just amazing how much can be similar in all of these WW WAS occurrences.

My W like many others here is facing demons of her past and I seem to take the blame or brunt of it. Demons never faced through counseling. As is stands for now, she actually seems happy. She's been upbeat, playing with the kids more, getting more done around the house and getting out more. Happy cause our M is over, happy cause she faced her past or happy cause of OM, who knows. Just repeating to myself here that, that doesnt matter at this point but its better than the cold tension of the first 1.5 months.

What does bother me and where I'm still struggling is cake eating. Today we talked about S1s, 1st bday. I didnt want to invite some of her friends H's over whom are siding with the D. She thought it was weird I didnt want them over. These same people have stopped inviting me out...why would I want them around.... I Didn't say that though. I felt we'd get in to an R talk. So were going to have a normal bday, for S1. Also, she twice brought up things to do after xmas in our house for the kids. We both seem stubborn as F. Neither one of us wants to be the one to leave the house. Still no new talks on mediation. I think I said it before and similar to Chaz's sitch, I dont want to end up as friends or roommates. After several days thinking of my sitch, I'm no closer on how to proceed with limbo. Live in the same house for how long here? If she really did stop talking to OM then is it really cake eating or is it in my favor? It's in my kids favor for the time being but I wonder in the long run if one of us were removed from the house, if it would be a wake up call. Either way financially and logistically, neither of us can really be removed from the house.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/14/19 11:29 PM
Also to add, I don't want to boot either of us out of the house, nor do I want to send any kind of message, I just want a healthy marriage with TWO parties.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/16/19 01:51 PM
I did a thorough financial forecast including alimony, child support and CHEAP daycare which likely isn't possible here. Looking at $-19k per year for me if we D. Not sure how one is supposed to live.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/16/19 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I've been reading more about attraction, how it all connects in some of our situations. As I redevelop these qualities, I'm not sure how to use them.

Confidence - my W will only talk to me about the kids. She doesn't see me out and about being confident. Per DB rules, I'm supposed to not initiate chats. That leaves me with what ways to show confidence other than posture and body language around the kids?

Assertiveness - same as above.

Integrity - she knows I have this in spades

Flirting - if she hates me and I'm not supposed to pursue, how am I supposed to flirt or compliment?

Sense of humour - My heart is broken, my soul and lifeforce sucked up in one of those things ghost busters capture spirits in. I'm mostly a shell filled with a deep sadness. Not sure how to be funny and think quick.

Witty, intelligence - if we don't talk, she won't know.

Strength - I've my new strength gains and am cut again but its not like I can walk around without a shirt on, or pick her up without her feeling uncomfortable. If she's not my wife in spirit technically her and and I may perceive any kind of touch as harassment.

Leadership - I left my work role in which I was a leader and had power. Family leadership is talked about but I dont understand without examples. What are examples of leading a family?

At this point, all I feel I can do and I've done is have an open posture, kill off my anxiety vibes, exercise in our main room and use kids as weights. She watched me one time. Talk to the kids with humour, assertiveness and confidence. Help D4 with her confiedence. This woman has always been hard to talk to even when we were friends. Do I break the DB rule and take the lead on talking?


Another anti-D expert I studied during my sitch put it like this:

Become the best you that you can be for you! And then when you get opportunities, you show it to her. NOTICE: When you get opportunities. IE don't go looking to create opportunities! All of us that have been through it can tell you for a fact that if you try to create opportunities then you will get your grapes squashed. Almost every single time.

Quote
Sense of humour - My heart is broken, my soul and lifeforce sucked up in one of those things ghost busters capture spirits in. I'm mostly a shell filled with a deep sadness. Not sure how to be funny and think quick.


The answer to this one is going to sound counter-intuitive, and it is....just like most of the advice in DBing. But the answer to this one is DO NOT LOSE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. Back in the 80s a group of psychologist did and experiment. They took people that were sad and depressed, and had them force themselves to smile. Guess what, what they found is that when you do that you move muscles in your face that you only use when you are happy, and it triggered endorphins to be released in the brain and people felt happier. You see Sense of humor, and you think "I am too said to be humorous". In reality it is exactly because you are sad that you should be humorous!!!

Quote
At this point, all I feel I can do and I've done is have an open posture, kill off my anxiety vibes, exercise in our main room and use kids as weights. She watched me one time. Talk to the kids with humour, assertiveness and confidence. Help D4 with her confiedence. This woman has always been hard to talk to even when we were friends. Do I break the DB rule and take the lead on talking?


DId you see what I said above? About getting your grapes crushed? Trust me, the reason we say not to initiate conversation especially R talks is because it almost always goes poorly. It almost always does more harm than good. Again, this is the illusion of action. However, doing nothing is the right thing to do!!
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/16/19 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85


The answer to this one is going to sound counter-intuitive, and it is....just like most of the advice in DBing. But the answer to this one is DO NOT LOSE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. Back in the 80s a group of psychologist did and experiment. They took people that were sad and depressed, and had them force themselves to smile. Guess what, what they found is that when you do that you move muscles in your face that you only use when you are happy, and it triggered endorphins to be released in the brain and people felt happier. You see Sense of humor, and you think "I am too said to be humorous". In reality it is exactly because you are sad that you should be humorous!!!


I'd love to see the cite for this.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/16/19 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Steve85


The answer to this one is going to sound counter-intuitive, and it is....just like most of the advice in DBing. But the answer to this one is DO NOT LOSE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. Back in the 80s a group of psychologist did and experiment. They took people that were sad and depressed, and had them force themselves to smile. Guess what, what they found is that when you do that you move muscles in your face that you only use when you are happy, and it triggered endorphins to be released in the brain and people felt happier. You see Sense of humor, and you think "I am too said to be humorous". In reality it is exactly because you are sad that you should be humorous!!!


I'd love to see the cite for this.


I realize this came of snarky. I didn't mean it as such. I was just curious if you had more information.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/16/19 04:33 PM
Google: forcing yourself to smile
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/16/19 04:35 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Steve85


The answer to this one is going to sound counter-intuitive, and it is....just like most of the advice in DBing. But the answer to this one is DO NOT LOSE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. Back in the 80s a group of psychologist did and experiment. They took people that were sad and depressed, and had them force themselves to smile. Guess what, what they found is that when you do that you move muscles in your face that you only use when you are happy, and it triggered endorphins to be released in the brain and people felt happier. You see Sense of humor, and you think "I am too said to be humorous". In reality it is exactly because you are sad that you should be humorous!!!


I'd love to see the cite for this.


I realize this came of snarky. I didn't mean it as such. I was just curious if you had more information.

I've read this from several sources. I used to throw my arms up in the air and yell "YES" for like 2 or 3 min before I walked in the house if I knew my W would be there. It worked for me.

It gets your mind in a good spot and your attitude shows.
Posted By: IronWill Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/17/19 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Steve85


The answer to this one is going to sound counter-intuitive, and it is....just like most of the advice in DBing. But the answer to this one is DO NOT LOSE YOUR SENSE OF HUMOR. Back in the 80s a group of psychologist did and experiment. They took people that were sad and depressed, and had them force themselves to smile. Guess what, what they found is that when you do that you move muscles in your face that you only use when you are happy, and it triggered endorphins to be released in the brain and people felt happier. You see Sense of humor, and you think "I am too said to be humorous". In reality it is exactly because you are sad that you should be humorous!!!


I'd love to see the cite for this.


I realize this came of snarky. I didn't mean it as such. I was just curious if you had more information.

I've read this from several sources. I used to throw my arms up in the air and yell "YES" for like 2 or 3 min before I walked in the house if I knew my W would be there. It worked for me.

It gets your mind in a good spot and your attitude shows.


This also works with calming yourself before going home if you are anxious.

Stop. Take 4 slow deep breaths. Re-center yourself. It has something to do with the increased oxygen to your brain. Same idea with the endorphins from laughing.

One other thing that's helped me - Vitamin supplement 5HTP. Some people don't think supplements do anything. I find it does for me. Even if it's just psychological, I really don't care - I feel better when I'm taking it.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/17/19 01:38 PM
I heard of both the smiling and saying yes technics. Both appear proven to work from articles I read. Neither work here but maybe because I don't think they will work? CBD oil however has been huge for me. Expensive though, that and therapy.

Journaling here:
Continuing to stay in limbo. W has started no relationship chats nor shown a sign of starting mediation or divorce papers. W has been acting pleasant toward me. Initiating chats, and asked how my day was for the first time since BD. She is acting happy, which is easier on me. Not sure if I haven't fully detached or its just nicer having someone not be miserable in the house. I am starting to feel like contact may have been cut with OM or maybe they went deeper underground. I came across some cryptic old notes from her college days and if I'm understanding correctly, OM left her for another woman. If thats true, I cant fathom why thats the guy she breaks apart her family to go back to.

I'm feeling good overall. Looking back in shape like my 20s, the physical strength no where near but thats not what I'm going for. While kick boxing, I kicked higher than my head for the first time in my adult life. Happy with myself doing that! Anxiety and anger mostly going away. Its like a forward spiral, some days I go backwards but not as far as in the past. Yesterday the anger hit after cleaning up things and just realizing how much I did for the house, family and relationship. I realize financially that I have to stay in purgatory for potentially 1-2 years here, and will need to get a 2nd job if D happens.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/17/19 01:53 PM
Rejection breeds obsession. That’s the dynamic going on right now with both of you. Google it.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/17/19 09:42 PM
I'm dense here LH, I read up on it and don't get it. Maybe half get it. I see how I'm kind of obsessed with her but its more like I'm obsessed with my kids having at least some years of a stable childhood. As painful as every ones sitchs are, I'm almost jealous of the MLCers who had many years of quality family life. No offense to you all out there, I know its hard for us all.

I just cant fathom why the process hasn't started yet. If it can take months to years for a D to be finalized. We could still live together to survive if need be even if we divorced or separated...so why won't she start the process? Not saying I like that option but it would not be much different (in living arrangements) compared to where we are now except that I could pursue other relationships when/if I'm ready and she could pursue OM without the guilt, lies and secrets.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/17/19 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I'm dense here LH, I read up on it and don't get it. Maybe half get it. I see how I'm kind of obsessed with her but its more like I'm obsessed with my kids having at least some years of a stable childhood. As painful as every ones sitchs are, I'm almost jealous of the MLCers who had many years of quality family life. No offense to you all out there, I know its hard for us all.

I just cant fathom why the process hasn't started yet. If it can take months to years for a D to be finalized. We could still live together to survive if need be even if we divorced or separated...so why won't she start the process? Not saying I like that option but it would not be much different (in living arrangements) compared to where we are now except that I could pursue other relationships when/if I'm ready and she could pursue OM without the guilt, lies and secrets.


This post screams needing IC.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/17/19 11:26 PM
Thanks Steve...how so? I'm not saying that I want to live with us divorced or separated under the same roof, only that living arrangement wise, its almost no different than things are now. In her mind we seem divorced and in mine I'm detaching. Already separated emotionally, just not legally and financially. The more I self improve, the more ugly this limbo feels.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 08:15 AM
I did a backslide tonight and feel terrible. W and I were previously on the same page on what toys can come to our dinner table. D4 told me W allowed a toy today that wasnt allowed in the past. Being so little and things said often misconstrued, I asked D4 if the toy was on the table or just close by. She said it was on the table and went to find W and thinking she was in trouble for having the toy at the table, she started crying.

Feeling disrespected that W changed the toys at table rule and to see D4 crying over her parents telling her different things, I told W "this seems like good coparenting right now". No yelling or raised voice but there was some frustration and sarcasm in my tone which I regret. I stated that we need to stay on the same page with these things to avoid a situation like this for D4. She apologized and asked me to change my stance. I offered an alternative option which she didnt like so I stood my ground, maintaining our previously held rule.

Over something so minor, either way this panned out, it seemed lose, lose for D4 and I. I want to apologize for my tone, but I'm not sure if thats NGS or fear of a repercussion coming out. Thoughts?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 10:15 AM
Core,

If you truly feel you were wrong then apologize (that's alpha). If you are apologizing to placate her( that's NGS).
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Thanks Steve...how so? I'm not saying that I want to live with us divorced or separated under the same roof, only that living arrangement wise, its almost no different than things are now. In her mind we seem divorced and in mine I'm detaching. Already separated emotionally, just not legally and financially. The more I self improve, the more ugly this limbo feels.


I am reading obsessed. I am seeing a lot of indecision. I am detecting a lot of inner conflict. I also so you floundering (IE your latest post) in being strong, sure, confident, and not impulsive related to your DBing.

I think you would really benefit from a good IC.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 02:50 PM
LH and Steve, thanks for the responses.

I texted a note of apology. Felt like the right thing, especially as I think the type of action I showed is one I need to maintain my 180 on.

To Steve's point, my actions were impulsive, which I know means were not well thought out. Seeing D4 crying always breaks the heart, but I see its something I need to let her experience as well. Not something for me to fix, same as my W's or anyone else's feeling for that matter. Thankfully I'm in IC, we just have been derailed as the BD was a shock to us both when IC started. Tells you how disconnected I was from W's feelings. The inner conflict does remain strong especially holiday time, the want for a our first happily family xmas pic is real.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Core

I just cant fathom why the process hasn't started yet. If it can take months to years for a D to be finalized. We could still live together to survive if need be even if we divorced or separated...so why won't she start the process? Not saying I like that option but it would not be much different (in living arrangements) compared to where we are now except that I could pursue other relationships when/if I'm ready and she could pursue OM without the guilt, lies and secrets.


Just read this sentence again. I don't think she really wants it Do you want it? Do you want to pursue other women?

I've said this before and it's hard for people to understand If an spouse decides they don't want a D or doesn't do anything to start the D, that doesn't automatically mean they want to work on the M. It's not binary. There will be a long period of just doing not much. Now many LBS cant' handle this and despite claims they are standing for their marriage initiate the D. Patience is something that is absolute required.

I know a lot of vets will require their spouse to say they are working on the M. But that comes in many forms. the spouse has to work on the M in their own way and work on themselves.

I don't know where your W is in this process but it's never as fast and as clear as we would like.
Posted By: job Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 03:07 PM
Core,

I'm sure I'll get bashed for my comment...but I think I would have apologized in person. You could have then looked her in the eye and apologized and followed up with: "let's work together on any changes to the rules for out little girl so that we don't confuse or upset her again".

Texting, to me, in a case like this is very impersonal....but that's my opinion.

Please note, there is no right or wrong way to do things, but sometimes, we have to try different things. Hopefully, your text will smooth the waters at home.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Core
The inner conflict does remain strong especially holiday time, the want for a our first happily family xmas pic is real.



In the middle of the worst of my situation, we went to a holiday party for my kids daycare. We took probably one of the best Christmas photos we have ever taken. The W looked beautiful, kids are smiling, I look happy. In the end it was all just a show.

I still have the photo.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by job
Core,

I'm sure I'll get bashed for my comment...but I think I would have apologized in person. You could have then looked her in the eye and apologized and followed up with: "let's work together on any changes to the rules for out little girl so that we don't confuse or upset her again".

Texting, to me, in a case like this is very impersonal....but that's my opinion.


I was about to post the exact same thing until I saw this. Completely agree.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I did a backslide tonight and feel terrible. W and I were previously on the same page on what toys can come to our dinner table. D4 told me W allowed a toy today that wasnt allowed in the past. Being so little and things said often misconstrued, I asked D4 if the toy was on the table or just close by. She said it was on the table and went to find W and thinking she was in trouble for having the toy at the table, she started crying.

Feeling disrespected that W changed the toys at table rule and to see D4 crying over her parents telling her different things, I told W "this seems like good coparenting right now". No yelling or raised voice but there was some frustration and sarcasm in my tone which I regret. I stated that we need to stay on the same page with these things to avoid a situation like this for D4. She apologized and asked me to change my stance. I offered an alternative option which she didnt like so I stood my ground, maintaining our previously held rule.

Over something so minor, either way this panned out, it seemed lose, lose for D4 and I. I want to apologize for my tone, but I'm not sure if thats NGS or fear of a repercussion coming out. Thoughts?


Pick your battles. In the big scheme of things is the toy at the table really worth going to battle over? This is going to be one of many many changes that you encounter in her parenting style. Remember, this is not the girl you married!

My other advice is to not react. Take some time, calm down so you aren't emotional when you confront her. Jumping up and confronting her right then was not the right move because you hadn't even had time to process it.

I am with LH, apologize only if you were wrong. Do not apologize just because you feel bad for her.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85


Pick your battles. In the big scheme of things is the toy at the table really worth going to battle over? This is going to be one of many many changes that you encounter in her parenting style. Remember, this is not the girl you married!

My other advice is to not react. Take some time, calm down so you aren't emotional when you confront her. Jumping up and confronting her right then was not the right move because you hadn't even had time to process it.

I am with LH, apologize only if you were wrong. Do not apologize just because you feel bad for her.



Agree, I feel like sometimes the LBS and the WAS use other things as proxy battles for their ongoing conflicts. Just be mindful if that's the case.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Core

I just cant fathom why the process hasn't started yet. If it can take months to years for a D to be finalized. We could still live together to survive if need be even if we divorced or separated...so why won't she start the process? Not saying I like that option but it would not be much different (in living arrangements) compared to where we are now except that I could pursue other relationships when/if I'm ready and she could pursue OM without the guilt, lies and secrets.


Just read this sentence again. I don't think she really wants it Do you want it? Do you want to pursue other women?

I've said this before and it's hard for people to understand If an spouse decides they don't want a D or doesn't do anything to start the D, that doesn't automatically mean they want to work on the M. It's not binary. There will be a long period of just doing not much. Now many LBS cant' handle this and despite claims they are standing for their marriage initiate the D. Patience is something that is absolute required.

I know a lot of vets will require their spouse to say they are working on the M. But that comes in many forms. the spouse has to work on the M in their own way and work on themselves.

I don't know where your W is in this process but it's never as fast and as clear as we would like.





THIS^^^^^^^^^
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 05:46 PM
I pray ^^^^ is the case. I have some hope and many doubts. Even if she doesnt want the D, it doesn't mean she wont file. I have no interest in pursuing other women (never have during a relationship) and do not want the D.

If I could go back, I would've apologized for the latest issue right as it happened in person with D4 present to see a man confess to his errors.

Based on many of your constructive responses, I really see a new level of how I had my hand in this relationship issue. These setbacks seem to bring back all the feelings I thought I already processed and dealt with.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/18/19 05:52 PM
Core, to me the biggest issue you need to tackle is how to find inner happiness. I've lately in a lot of threads been hammering on the idea of finding happiness first with yourself before you can be one half of a happy MR. What does this mean? It means that the LAST thing that should be on your mind is dating other women.....even if your wife files for D! Why? Because the one thing you should be learning from all of this is that you haven't been happy with yourself........maybe ever. Therefore you cannot possible have a happy MR since that requires to happy, healthy individuals coming together as a couple.

Again, a lot of this should be explore in IC, but this is why we say focus on you. Become the best you that you can be! If you don't, then you are setting yourself up for BD#2, whether that is with someone new, or in MR 2.0 with your W.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/20/19 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Mario

In the middle of the worst of my situation, we went to a holiday party for my kids daycare. We took probably one of the best Christmas photos we have ever taken. The W looked beautiful, kids are smiling, I look happy. In the end it was all just a show.

I still have the photo.


Can we PM on here? Mario, I'd like to hear your sitch.

Steve, thank you. I spent some time with my IC getting through some things. Changing my game plan a bit, she's going to try EMDR in addition to the CBT which sounds like it'll be affective.

I still think she may be planning her exit. I'd love to agree with the statement that she may not want the D but I'm not seeing many positive signs. I'm not to the point where I want to file myself.

Recent positive signs: Hasn't filed that I know of, acknowledged some of my change

Recent neutral signs: Stopped gaslighting me, gives more than one word answers now, buys my family xmas gifts, makes and serves dinner for all of us.

Recent negative signs: in separate rooms, doors closed, initiates few chats, may still be talking to OM, when talking to kids - calls me "your dad" and not "dad", 0 physical touch, no conversations asking about just me or my day, advised she doesnt trust my changes.
Posted By: job Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/20/19 08:15 PM
Core,

No, you cannot PM on here. The PM is not turned and we cannot provide our personal info on here either.

I did ask Mario if by change his previous name was Mario23 and he did not respond back to me. If he says that he is Mario 23, I will bump his threads up for him.

Core, focus on the positives. Keep the focus on you and your family. She's still got a ways to go and there is nothing you can do to rush the process. Continue making your changes and do not stop the changes. They have to become permanent and she will test you to see if you revert back to the old Core. Don't do it!

Dig deeper for patience and focus on you and how you respond to her behaviors. You can't control her...you can only control yourself. Keep in mind, you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her....she has to do that.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/28/19 04:20 PM
Hi All,
Nothing new or big here. Continuing to work on patience. Xmas was almost normal, we worked through family issues together and seemingly all had a good time. We're keeping it mostly "business" however she brought up other topics which I validated as I could. Still no action towards R or new action towards D.

I got one of the recommended books on validation and its good so far. I never realized how much I invalidated feelings (not on purpose). More so, I didn't realize how much W invalidated me and for how long. After processing alot of this in IC, its no wonder the M fell apart. Whats scary here is I think I'm not just detaching, I think I may be starting to feel like a WAS does. I see and remember how critical W was of me, my passions, my parenting style. I see the contempt she held. All her passive aggressive explosions, comments and reactions. Her physical neglect, moving away from my signs of affection. Talking ill of my friends and family. Siding with others against me when I brought up issues to talk through. The invalidating, her messy nature. House always being a disaster and me to blame even when all my areas are clean. Me trying to talk and getting one word responses. I don't know all....I am unsure I want R if the opportunity does arise. I want it for the kids but now I'm seeing that being in this M is probably not in my best interest. I know its all feelings and they can change but just wow...shes treated me poorly for awhile. Consciously or not.

Here I am GALing, getting fit, eating well, drink less than once per month, reading, going to IC all while W is drinking, eating worse, stopped exercising, etc. I'm moving up while she seems to go down and as she goes down, I get more concerned for the kids. Especially if she is drinking at a friends and driving with them in the car.

End rant.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/28/19 04:33 PM
C,

That’s a really great update! Just be careful because feelings ebb and flow hence the roller coaster reference. Probably too early for you to become the WS but it certainly does happen sometimes.

Keep doing what you’re doing.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/29/19 03:47 AM
Thank you LH! I don't think I'd let myself get to the WS point on principle alone but I do wonder how I'll come out of this limbo. 3 months in, no end in sight.

All, something I saw either online or in the validation book I'm reading...its been huge for me the last two days.

Make sure you are validating your own feelings, not just others'. I had to talk to myself out loud to really feel it but it worked. Found myself ruminating over something passive aggressive W did and I knew I'd have it in my mind till I talked to someone about it. Then I asked myself what was wrong and told myself it was normal to feel the frustration and anger. There are many reasons why its ok, especially given the circumstances. Then I asked how I can continue forward.

I always heard to accept and not fight your feelings, I just didn't understand what it meant. I literally used to tell myself "I accept that I'm anxious". That did nothing to help!

Probably stuff I should've learned years ago but it worked several times already and I think its good practice for me to better learn to validate others. Hope this helps someone else as well.
Posted By: unchien Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/29/19 06:45 PM
Core, there are good resources out there on validating your own feelings... check out self-compassion. It has helped me deal with my anxiety in particular.

I've felt the same way as you... fighting off anger and frustration because they are "bad" emotions. They are part of the full range of human emotions. It's okay to feel that way. They become problematic when we act out because of those emotions.

Along the way, on your journey of emotional growth, you will probably start to see your MR from new angles -- sometimes we talk about the rose-colored glasses and the gray-colored glasses. It's part of correcting course to the point where we can start to see things clearly, without a new set of clear lenses.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/30/19 11:35 PM
Steve and Mario, I think you were right. I think she was 2nd guessing the D or truly didnt want it. Didnt key word as I strayed from your advice again. My patience ran out today and I started an R talk. I status checked and got my grapes squashed. I asked what her plan was and she stated that we were taking time but are roomates. Shouldve left it at that but I asked what that meant. I validated for awhile, then I interjected my own issues with her affair and how she never truly apologized or showed remorse. After I had her on the defensive, she immediately brought up mediation and wants to start it in the new year.

She stepped away from the argument, mentioned she could never love me and wants to continue talking tomorrow. Heed the advice of the vets everyone.

Quick urgent advice, what do I do during our talk, just validate?
Posted By: unchien Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/30/19 11:56 PM
Core ~ Does she actually want to talk tomorrow, or is she saying that to appease you?

Re-read your post above and understand where you applied pressure. Remove all pressure.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/31/19 12:58 AM
Good call U, I applied pressure and blame. I even told myself not to go home right away today. I had a bunch of anger and resentment built up. It took so little to kick me in to the relationship chat. One more regret for the books. When I think rationally, I think she was truly asking for more time.

She did comment on going dark like DB techniques and how I haven't talked much with her unless it was about the kids. Had I know I was being tested and she wanted conversations, I of course wouldve partaken. That was one DB rule I felt like I shouldn't have followed. Seems I may have been accurate on that one.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/31/19 01:33 AM
What makes you think she’s not Bsing you?

Why would you be interested in talking to someone who is cheating on you and wanting to D you?
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/31/19 12:52 PM
Believe me, I'm thinking and feeling both those things. Her mind can't or refuses to grasp the same logic.

She got in to things I've said in the past that hurt her, probably trying to justify her lying and having an EA. Still no answers on her end, avoiding the issue and its looking like she wants to go back to limbo. OM is still friends/following her on social media yet I'm the bad guy for not trusting her. I cant tell if her reactions were that of someone getting caught in an EA or were truthful. Her ability to lie and manipulate is very finely tuned. I do actually get the vibe that she was telling the truth though and is or was somehow holding out to see what happens in our relationship. Yet verbally none of that is communicated. I have to be a mind reader which is normal for us and part of what got us here.

Thing is, how am I supposed to make 100% perfect improvements with no slip ups while it seems OM is in the picture, while divorce is held over my head and while she remains critical, judgmental, invalidates and remains cold?
Posted By: job Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 12/31/19 01:59 PM
Psst….she doesn't control you and whatever improvements you need to make for yourself. Only you control yourself. If you have improvements that you know you need to make...then make them for YOU! Do not make the improvements with the mindset that you are doing it to win her back and/or get her approval. Changes/improvements are for you and you alone.

As for her bring up things from the past....yes, they do that all of the time. It's there way of justifying why they are doing what they are doing. Things that happened in the past, if you have apologized already, then that's it. No more listening to that tape. All we can do is learn from our mistakes and move on. The past is the past and we are all living in the present.

You know what she's doing with regards to the lying and manipulating of information, the best way to handle this is to ignore the BS and hold your head up high and do the best you can in showing her and the world that what she's saying isn't bothering you. Now, if someone comes up to you and asks about it, then you can state the truth of the matter...but she's doing all of this BS to beat you down to where she is right now...in the rabbit hole.

She never left the limbo land. She's been in it for some time and if it's not the OM that you know is in the picture, it could very well be another one....but it takes a lot of time for affairs to burn out and you want the affair to burn out on its own, i.e., it has to run it's course. If she decides to come back to you, make her work for it, i.e., she needs to earn your trust again and needs to be transparent in all things to do w/her life.

BTW, they do scream the word "divorce" all of the time...it is a way of controlling you and keeping you in line so that you are scared and will not say or do something that will make her look at herself in the mirror. Trust me, if a divorce is going to happen, it won't matter whether she's threatening you or not...but if I were in your shoes, I would make darn sure that I had my ducks in a row as to what to expect legally.

Detach, detach and detach! Ignore her behavior and live your life to the fullest. When she realizes that you don't give a fig about what she's doing, she just might change her tune a bit. Right now, she wants control and doesn't care how she gets it.

Dig deeper for patience, focus on you and your family and above all else live your life for you, i.e., make those changes that you think you need to make for you!
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/01/20 07:40 PM
Job, thank you for the response. I've read it a few times now and find it to be highly insightful. I dont know how you and some of the others can pull so much detail out of a situation which I cant see myself and I'm living in it. Quite a skill!

As I suspected, W basically seems to be ignoring our latest chat or pretending it didnt happen. We never continued the chat which was going to happen yesterday which is probably a good thing per DB rules. Back to limbo we go. It wouldnt be as bad if she had an ounce of respect or if I knew if OM was out of the picture.

As an example, she mentioned how we dont talk anymore, so I tested to see what would happen if I started conversations about thing she likes and something else I'm passionate about. During one chat, she grabbed her phone and started texting. In the other she had nothing to say when I finished my story and walked away to watch tv without a word. This type of thing has happened a lot the last 1-2 years. Is this a normal WAS symptom? Wonder if I've a covert narc on my hands or if shes just lazy, rude or being passive aggressive. Thing is, other than me, she only treats two others like this, her brother and sister who are mostly out of the picture and whom she holds resentment for (for things that are minor to most people).

I see my questions here show Im still not detached and still searching for answers. Part of it is me wondering if I need to file first and get this over with for me and the kids. What if D4 learns and picks up on this behavior and thinks its ok to act this way toward me. I'd be crushed if my kids emulate W.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/01/20 08:23 PM
C,

A couple things:

1. Can you add a signature like mine so it will be easier to help you?

2. Have you read up on boundaries? Now is the time to start commanding respect from your W. Do not allow her to talk down to you in front of your kids.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 02:39 PM
LH,

1- I have a sig but not sure why it doesn't show. I don't see any. Changed some settings to see if that worked.

2- I've read up a bit on boundaries. Besides walking away from a conversation, I see no where else I hold power to enforce a boundary. I think she pushes talking in front of the kids as a passive aggressive way to end the marriage. I told her before we did counseling years back that if she argued with me in front of the kids, it would drive me away to protect myself and the kids.

Contempt and hate towards W slowly continue to build in me while W continues her emotional reactions and as I see no end to limbo. How did you others find the patience and how did you not fill with hate when being treated so poorly? A small sliver of me now thinks W may come out of her ways eventually but at what cost.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 02:46 PM
Contempt and hate have no place in a relationship. Are you sure it isn't anger and resentment?

Patience is the key to DBing. Your BD isn't even 4 months ago. Remember, MARATHON not a SPRINT!
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 02:53 PM
Patience Core...try empathy - she's going through something that she needs to figure out on her own. Quite likely, this isn't about you at all. Detach, give space, and don't give her reasons to vilify you.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by TKO
and don't give her reasons to vilify you.


Bingo. Look at my response to Space. They WILL vilify you if you give them the ammunition.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
What makes you think she’s not Bsing you?

Why would you be interested in talking to someone who is cheating on you and wanting to D you?


Core, you need to decide what is best.

If I had followed this advice, I'd be divorced today.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by Core
LH,

How did you others find the patience and how did you not fill with hate when being treated so poorly? A small sliver of me now thinks W may come out of her ways eventually but at what cost.



Anyone here who says they weren't mad or upset at their spouses is a GD liar. I'm sure in your mind, you've turned what she's done into the worst things ever. A small reading on this site shows you that people have been treated 100X worse than you have. So some perspective is in order. That is not to minimize how she's treating you. Everyone deserves some respect.

But you have to remember that maybe your W felt this way about you for years. Many LBS seem to forget and want to focus on the hurt they are experiences.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 03:39 PM
So just to clarify Mario or Mario23???

Maybe her accusing him of not talking to her is more likely Gaslighting. Why should he strike up conversations with someone who is cheating and wanting to D him?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by LH19
What makes you think she’s not Bsing you?

Why would you be interested in talking to someone who is cheating on you and wanting to D you?


Core, you need to decide what is best.

If I had followed this advice, I'd be divorced today.



No way you could possibly know this.

Core, be wary of anyone that talks in absolutes or gives guarantees.
Posted By: unchien Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Core
LH,

How did you others find the patience and how did you not fill with hate when being treated so poorly? A small sliver of me now thinks W may come out of her ways eventually but at what cost.


Anyone here who says they weren't mad or upset at their spouses is a GD liar. I'm sure in your mind, you've turned what she's done into the worst things ever. A small reading on this site shows you that people have been treated 100X worse than you have. So some perspective is in order. That is not to minimize how she's treating you. Everyone deserves some respect.

But you have to remember that maybe your W felt this way about you for years. Many LBS seem to forget and want to focus on the hurt they are experiences.

Core ~ I've commented a few times on your thread about NGS and anxiety. I see a lot of myself in your posts.

These situations are emotional gauntlets. One of the best things you can do (in my humble opinion) ESPECIALLY if you have NG tendencies and issues with anxiety... work on your emotional awareness.

OF COURSE we feel hurt and mad and angry at times. Hate is a strong word, but I also would bet most if not all of us LBS's have felt that too at some point.

As Mario pointed out, your W also probably feels some strong emotions about you. Maybe she's been frustrated for years. Everyone has a different level of tolerance and patience in their sitch. How do we deal with poor treatment? Well... if it's bad enough, we set boundaries. Otherwise, we learn to deal with it by handling our own emotions and giving our WAS the time and space they need while we work on ourselves as well. I'm not being flippant -- this is really really hard to do, but the more you can deal with your own emotions in a healthy way, you will be better off in so many ways.

Look again at the sentence I quoted above. You are already talking about how hard it might be to get over your resentment if you end up piecing things together down the road. You are spending your precious mental energy worrying about one possible future which may not happen. Is this useful?
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by LH19
What makes you think she’s not Bsing you?

Why would you be interested in talking to someone who is cheating on you and wanting to D you?


Core, you need to decide what is best.

If I had followed this advice, I'd be divorced today.



No way you could possibly know this.

Core, be wary of anyone that talks in absolutes or gives guarantees.


I don't want to hijack the thread, but I DO KNOW this. My W told me.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
So just to clarify Mario or Mario23???

Maybe her accusing him of not talking to her is more likely Gaslighting. Why should he strike up conversations with someone who is cheating and wanting to D him?



Because she's the mother of his kids? Because maybe she's going through her own crisis? Because maybe she's had moment of sincerity? I was simply suggesting that Core needs to make up his own mind. The reason I respond is that his situation is very close to mine. There were times when I didn't just shut down my wife when she wanted to talk.


I'm not sure if his W has explicitly said she wants a D after the first time.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 08:02 PM
I don’t think anyone here is advocating for him to shoot her down when she wants to talk. We advocate listen and validate.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 08:03 PM
BTW on first post she ask for a D.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/02/20 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by Core
How did you others find the patience and how did you not fill with hate when being treated so poorly?.



Because Love isn't about what you "get"...

Love comes from what you give.



Being treated "poorly" is subjective. And it allows one to become a 'victim' ...






What exactly are you afraid of Core ?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by Steve85
Originally Posted by Mario
Originally Posted by LH19
What makes you think she’s not Bsing you?

Why would you be interested in talking to someone who is cheating on you and wanting to D you?


Core, you need to decide what is best.

If I had followed this advice, I'd be divorced today.



No way you could possibly know this.

Core, be wary of anyone that talks in absolutes or gives guarantees.


I don't want to hijack the thread, but I DO KNOW this. My W told me.



Yeah. My WAW told me a lot of things. She doesn't even know. Again, there are no guarantees or absolutes in these stitches.

Also your confrontational posting style is very reminiscent of another recent poster. Interesting you joined about the same time that poster was shamed into disappearing by being caught using multiple screen names.....
Posted By: greenman Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 02:48 AM
Core,

I'm 5m since BD and 3m DB from my WAW. I'm going through almost the exact same feelings as yourself. I am still providing for her/us and she hates me. Crazy tough. I want to be with this woman ? I still react to her and battle these questions daily. Watching her going out and having fun without me...I question why fight ? Well I still believe there is a chance for us and the kids. In the process and the hardest part is GAL myself. She is out for herself right now and I need to get out for myself. Everything is so against my nature, but I am looking at this as the biggest challenge of my life. However, also realizing much is out of my control.

Like you, I question how we got here and if I want this long term. I really don't know right now, but want to keep the door open.

Detach from the rejection and not so much her per say.

I do see changes though. Have faith, my friend, but like you this is no short road. And to where I don't know.

I am getting better at myself and DB. I make far less conversation mistakes now and have started to become better naturally. I never show anger around her anymore. I naturally suppress it now and listen better. Have better prepared responses. No matter how shitty and angry I am coming over, I act happy, confident and fun around her and the kids. I try to give her space and do the opposite of some bad behaviors i used to have around her.

She has a HUGE guard up and flat told me she was done back at BD, but I will be stronger in the end if I fight for this. She feels things will go back once I am content. I just keep making lasting changes (not 100% sure what she wants anyways) and she will have to decide at some point.


Good luck friend I will keep following and maybe help each other.
Posted By: BenB Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 01:13 PM
Been thinking the exact same thing Steve
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 03:44 PM
Steve,

My W and I have had many conversations about what happened. Many. She told me numerous times that she appreciated that I was available to talk and that it showed a willingness to change. I'm about 8 years ahead of you.


As for your other comment, I didn't realize you thought that and I see this is important to you. I am gonna have to think about that a little more. I appreciate you being so open and honest with me.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Mario
Steve,

My W and I have had many conversations about what happened. Many. She told me numerous times that she appreciated that I was available to talk and that it showed a willingness to change. I'm about 8 years ahead of you.


As for your other comment, I didn't realize you thought that and I see this is important to you. I am gonna have to think about that a little more. I appreciate you being so open and honest with me.





Mario, my point is that you can't look back and say "if I did that this would happen". Even if that is what she says. How she would have reacted to tough love may mean you'd be even further ahead than the 8 years you claim now. WHO KNOW??

As far as my feedback, as my favorite Texan TV counselor says: you can't fix what you don't acknowledge.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 05:01 PM
Core,

Hope you are doing well. It sounds like you've had a roller coaster the last couple of days. to me it's a natural cycle. You hate being in limbo, want to do something, the only thing that can really do is file for the D yourself, but you don't want it. Then you start to get angry with your W because of what they did and how they justified it, then feel sad.

it can be exhausting. Take care of yourself man.
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Mach1


Because Love isn't about what you "get"...

Love comes from what you give.

Being treated "poorly" is subjective. And it allows one to become a 'victim' ...

What exactly are you afraid of Core ?


Good points. What I'm afraid of is S1 learning that this is ok for a woman to do. For D4 to learn to treat others this way. For the marriage to end and the kids to go through turmoil. I'm afraid my plans to retire will be greatly delayed due to the financial impact. Im afraid to move to an unsafe neighborhood with poor schools as I can't afford any better while paying daycare, child support and alimony. I'm afraid of missing half their childhoods and of studies that show single parents have much less quality time with their kids. Thats all the tip of the iceberg.

Originally Posted by Mario

Anyone here who says they weren't mad or upset at their spouses is a GD liar. I'm sure in your mind, you've turned what she's done into the worst things ever. A small reading on this site shows you that people have been treated 100X worse than you have. So some perspective is in order. That is not to minimize how she's treating you. Everyone deserves some respect.

But you have to remember that maybe your W felt this way about you for years. Many LBS seem to forget and want to focus on the hurt they are experiences.


True Mario, she did indeed feel hurt for some time. Not to mitigate her feelings but that words that caused the feelings she told me are plain wrong. As an example, she said I told her I wished she was dead. In reality, I told her I wished she stayed away longer as she came home one day and immediately nagged me over something out of my control. Her feelings and perceptions are far from the true facts. She says I've a bad memory and I'm misremembering but its not true.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Contempt and hate have no place in a relationship. Are you sure it isn't anger and resentment?

Patience is the key to DBing. Your BD isn't even 4 months ago. Remember, MARATHON not a SPRINT!


Steve, thank you for continuing to support! Honestly I can't identify the feelings. Feels like hate. I dont like seeing her, listening to her, being in her presence. Maybe its resentment, frustration. Hard to let it go as I'm near positive the EA continues. I read your thread you made for newbies. Its beautiful. I wish I read if day one. I probably would've still broke rules but maybe less.

Originally Posted by Jac12
Patience Core...try empathy - she's going through something that she needs to figure out on her own. Quite likely, this isn't about you at all. Detach, give space, and don't give her reasons to vilify you.


The thing is, what she's going through is ending up with her doing the worst thing you can do in a marriage both to me and our god which she supposedly follows. She even said god told her to do what shes doing. I cant empathize with something so wrong. On the vilify comment, thats a good point. Everything you say and do with a WAS will be used against you.

Originally Posted by unchien
[quote=Mario]
Core ~ I've commented a few times on your thread about NGS and anxiety. I see a lot of myself in your posts.

These situations are emotional gauntlets. One of the best things you can do (in my humble opinion) ESPECIALLY if you have NG tendencies and issues with anxiety... work on your emotional awareness.

Everyone has a different level of tolerance and patience in their sitch. How do we deal with poor treatment? Well... if it's bad enough, we set boundaries. Otherwise, we learn to deal with it by handling our own emotions and giving our WAS the time and space they need while we work on ourselves as well. I'm not being flippant -- this is really really hard to do, but the more you can deal with your own emotions in a healthy way, you will be better off in so many ways.

You are spending your precious mental energy worrying about one possible future which may not happen. Is this useful?


U, you read me like a book. I follow your thread as I often see you post the same things I'm feeling or thinking. I like to think I'm a smart dude but when its comes to emotional awareness, I swear D4 is already smarter than me. I am workingon it though. My IC told me she's noticed immense growth. I do continue to waste mental energy in hypothicals. Glad you pointed that out. Something to continue to work on.

Originally Posted by Steve85


Yeah. My WAW told me a lot of things. She doesn't even know.


This scares me. WAS don't even remember what they did or said?? So if they are overly emotional or stuck in feelings l, they forget. My W has always been feeling and emotional driven. This could be her entire life living that way.

So I noticed W got an email to text again at 11:52 on New Years Eve. No doubt it had to be OM. Being early in this sitch, I'm to expect this to happen possibly a year or more? W and I barely talk as it is. Less that roomates, friends, coparents do. Its like living with a void, thats trying to constantly suck me in. I think the only way to drop the rope for me is to D, yet I cannot per vows to my friends, family and god. To Mario's point, she hasn't asked for D since the initial BD. In our recent chat, she did say "ok, if you want, Ill start mediation in the new year". More of a threat/control than a want.

OM if he's still in the picture...he is a WEIRD person. His posts are non sensible tripe. He looks feminine, seems to have not yet broken free of his party phase, in way worse shape than I and is constantly posting things that look like him seeking validation. My confidence took a huge hit seeing that this is what W if willing to destroy me and the family over.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Core

OM if he's still in the picture...he is a WEIRD person. His posts are non sensible tripe. He looks feminine, seems to have not yet broken free of his party phase, in way worse shape than I and is constantly posting things that look like him seeking validation. My confidence took a huge hit seeing that this is what W if willing to destroy me and the family over.



My advice don't focus on the OM. I wouldn't even look at him on social media or wherever. Nothing good can come of it.

Are you still checking your W's texts? Do you think that helps or hurts with your anxiety/anger/etc?


What does your IC say about this?
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by greenman


I'm 5m since BD and 3m DB from my WAW. I'm going through almost the exact same feelings as yourself. I am still providing for her/us and she hates me. Crazy tough. I want to be with this woman ? I still react to her and battle these questions daily. Watching her going out and having fun without me...I question why fight ? Well I still believe there is a chance for us and the kids. In the process and the hardest part is GAL myself. She is out for herself right now and I need to get out for myself. Everything is so against my nature, but I am looking at this as the biggest challenge of my life. However, also realizing much is out of my control.

She has a HUGE guard up and flat told me she was done back at BD, but I will be stronger in the end if I fight for this. She feels things will go back once I am content. I just keep making lasting changes (not 100% sure what she wants anyways) and she will have to decide at some point.


Good luck friend I will keep following and maybe help each other.


Greenman, I'm following your sitch as well and am hoping for the best for you and the family. GAL can mean many things which don't always mean going out if your more introverted. I got the same exact thing..."I think you'll just change back"...I see this now as gaslighting and maybe projection.
Originally Posted by Mario
Core,

Hope you are doing well. It sounds like you've had a roller coaster the last couple of days. to me it's a natural cycle. You hate being in limbo, want to do something, the only thing that can really do is file for the D yourself, but you don't want it. Then you start to get angry with your W because of what they did and how they justified it, then feel sad.

it can be exhausting. Take care of yourself man.


Mario you nailed it. I'm going through that rollercoaster about once per month at this point. In regards to the exhaustion tou mentioned, its quite true and kills some GAL activities I try. I've taken quite a few naps when I could've GAL and stayed in with S1 for NYE instead of going out. How long did the rollercoaster last for you? Did you have young kids in your sitch forcing you and W to stay together during the whole sitch?
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Mario

My advice don't focus on the OM. I wouldn't even look at him on social media or wherever. Nothing good can come of it.

Are you still checking your W's texts? Do you think that helps or hurts with your anxiety/anger/etc?


What does your IC say about this?


IC suggests to not snoop for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I had to though...if OM and W contacted during NYE, I'd know they are close and not in occasional contact. Sure enough, they look to be in contact. I can't see texts so I dont truly know who send the message, just that it came from a messenger she never used before OM.

ICs take is to have relationship chats with W and IC has good logic behind it. She's a professional and quite good so I do feel apt to take her advice and have the chats with W. This however goes against DB rules. IC has helped couples in the middle of mediation turn things around.
Posted By: Mario Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Originally Posted by Mario

My advice don't focus on the OM. I wouldn't even look at him on social media or wherever. Nothing good can come of it.

Are you still checking your W's texts? Do you think that helps or hurts with your anxiety/anger/etc?


What does your IC say about this?


IC suggests to not snoop for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I had to though...if OM and W contacted during NYE, I'd know they are close and not in occasional contact. Sure enough, they look to be in contact. I can't see texts so I dont truly know who send the message, just that it came from a messenger she never used before OM.

ICs take is to have relationship chats with W and IC has good logic behind it. She's a professional and quite good so I do feel apt to take her advice and have the chats with W. This however goes against DB rules. IC has helped couples in the middle of mediation turn things around.



A couple points, you say you "had to look" I don't understand that. You don't have to look. the only thing it does it hurts you and potential progress. I think you should be honest...you wanted to look. If you want to keep touching the hot stove, you know the consequences. But snooping can be an addiction in itself. You have to guard for that.

I kinda agree/don't agree with your IC. In my situation I probably had too many relationship chats with the wife. Sometimes they sucked, other times they brought clarity. But have to remember that anything your W tells sincerely in a R chat is how they are feeling at that moment. It's not how they feel for the end or time.

I don't agree having an R chat constantly or to rehash over old things. I would be more strategic. There were times in my situation where and R chat was absolutely necessary. Other times where I probably could have let it go. Believe me, I got hammered for it on here.

It does go against DB but this is where I think you have to balance information you get here and information you get IRL.

Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 06:41 PM
Core, I was like you in the beginning, always claiming "I just had to look". My troubles with not snooping are documented in my threads. Truth is, we don't have to. And as others have said, it rarely improves things and almost always makes them worse. Just like R talks. That is why we advocate not starting them. And if you get dragged into one to listen, and validate.

Read the validation thread. Validating is a money technique! Why? Because your W will feel heard and will feel that her feelings are understood without you agreeing to anything she says. It is powerful in any relationship, not just in your marriage. Shoot, I've even used it on other posters!

Study validation and master it, it will work wonders in your sitch.
Posted By: Mach1 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Originally Posted by Mach1


Because Love isn't about what you "get"...

Love comes from what you give.

Being treated "poorly" is subjective. And it allows one to become a 'victim' ...

What exactly are you afraid of Core ?


Good points. What I'm afraid of is S1 learning that this is ok for a woman to do. For D4 to learn to treat others this way. For the marriage to end and the kids to go through turmoil. I'm afraid my plans to retire will be greatly delayed due to the financial impact. Im afraid to move to an unsafe neighborhood with poor schools as I can't afford any better while paying daycare, child support and alimony. I'm afraid of missing half their childhoods and of studies that show single parents have much less quality time with their kids. Thats all the tip of the iceberg.




And all fair points...

How much of that can YOU control ??

How much of that can you change ??

What if you can't change any of it ??

What happens if you can't control the outcome of this ??

Who are you left with, if things don't turn out the way you want them to ??

How does he navigate through all of that ???
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 09:24 PM
Core...just because someone texted your W on NYE doesn’t mean they are close. I had about six texts on NYE. Regardless...you are making this about him and it is not about him. The issues you and your W had were present long before he showed up on the scene. He is a symptom of and her current “solution” to her unhappiness. The more you focus on him, the more likely it is you will push the two of them together. Stop trying to figure that part of your sitch out. You have no control over it anyway and it only feeds the anger and resentment that you feel. Let it go. Let her go.

Focus on you and your kids. Be the best dad you can be to them with or without her. Quality time is more important than quantity. Continue to set a good example for them when they are with you. They won’t remember the details...just how they felt. Make sure they feel loved, supported, respected and safe. My kids did 100% better when they saw that I was okay...regardless of what their dad was doing. My biggest regret is that they saw me sad and weepy in the beginning because it scared them. Now they see nothing but a confident and happy mom and this has had a great effect. It is not what I wanted. It kills me they don’t get the intact family that I had growing up. But it is what it is and I have no choice but to accept it and make the best of the situation.

I hope your sitch turns out better than mine did but please don’t count on it. Accept that the MR you had is over and move forward. If your W ends up wanting to join you in your “new” life, great. If not, you will still be further ahead. It’s a win-win situation when you think of it from that perspective. Also...regarding R talks...it’s not that you can’t have them...if you do, it should be her initiating and you should focus on listening and validating and not on trying to control the outcome. If you try to push someone, or pull them, before they are ready, the natural inclination is for them to push back or pull away. Don’t force this unless you are prepared to deal with an unwanted outcome.

I know how hard this is. Just stay the course and focus on you. It gets better with time. I promise. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: unchien Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/03/20 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Core
U, you read me like a book. I follow your thread as I often see you post the same things I'm feeling or thinking. I like to think I'm a smart dude but when its comes to emotional awareness, I swear D4 is already smarter than me. I am workingon it though. My IC told me she's noticed immense growth. I do continue to waste mental energy in hypothicals. Glad you pointed that out. Something to continue to work on.

Core ~ I react strongly to your thread because I see a lot of myself in you.

I should be clear what I mean by emotional awareness - I mean understanding not just my emotions, but also how they are entangled with thoughts. One feeds the other. Anxiety is a beast... even thinking about your anxiety makes you anxious, right? That impulse to resolve anxiety has driven me to make some really lousy and unhealthy choices.

As far as concerns about your kids, I moved out 6 months ago, and the QUALITY of my time with my kids has grown exponentially. I'm not saying that happens for everyone. But it seems the study was wrong in my case. Studies are conglomerations of statistics. Studies are often designed to give the desired answer for whomever designed it. Studies probably show your MR probably has <50% chance of R. Does that mean you are going to give up? Of course not. You are 1 of 1, screw the statistics.

Sorry if the above comes across strongly. It's taken some 2x4s from the vets to help me snap out of some deeply entrenched patterns.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/04/20 03:20 AM
Core, you are extremely fortunate to have Mach weighing in on your sitch. He is a master at DBing. His style is different than the rest of us but his probing questions helped me immensely in my sitch!
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/04/20 06:08 PM
DV bragging about all her texts lol! We aren't all pros ya know?

I love what Mach posted on love being giving. It really is, and it reminds of spiritual teachings, not that he intended that. I am an inherently selfish person so those words resonated with me. Mach's questions take me back to me football playing/coaching days and my time in boot camp. You must have a PMA. Always! If you focus on things out of your control, you are not gaining ground towards the things you can control. My attitude change away from this mindset is why I got BD'd. Point blank, that is it. Never again....

I love that we have some of the old brass gathering round in your thread too. Thanks to Mario and Mach for dropping in.

My first IC/MC was giving me advice that was contrary to DB, as was my second IC. I found one I really like now. She doesn't know DB by trade, few do. I've been with this one over a year now and she can relate to DB.

I do think that MWD has the right approach with her 8 & 16 hour intensives. How much of your story can you convey in 1 hour per week? Your IC may have some great advice too though. What is he or she saying that is anti DB? DB means doing what works you know...

Core, I see you stressing over time and how you lament having no control other than filing for D. This is how your W felt for a long time I imagine: torn between her vows and her current desire to want to leave and live a "better" life. You need no imagination to see that she was and your are in this position where the promise to your spouse and your desire to be happy are at odds.

MWD advocates a bit of snooping to see what needs he/she is meeting for your spouse. I think you know now, so consider no more snooping.

Good luck...
Posted By: IronWill Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/04/20 08:36 PM
Hey Core -

You are getting a lot of great advice here from some very experienced people, so I won't be overly wordy. The one thing i would highly recommend is stopping the snooping.

Ask yourself - has it ever made you feel any better afterwards? Or has it made you feel worse?

Does snooping allow you to change what your W is doing?

What are you planning to do with this information that you gather from snooping?


Point is - and I'm just guessing here - it probably makes you feel like [censored] afterwards, then you get angry, then bitter, then resentment builds. And I'm gonna go out on a ledge here and suggest that those feelings are projected in an outward manner, which makes you look and feel even worse, etc etc. IMO that is not a good position to be in, especially if you would like a possible chance at Recon way way way far down the road.

Something to consider, anyway.

Stay strong! smile
Posted By: Core Re: Battling Forward Part2 - 01/05/20 04:42 AM
Wow, thank you all, vets and newerbies for the feedback! 2x4s are always appreciated and are wanted. Direct speak is very helpful!
Originally Posted by Mario

A couple points, you say you "had to look" I don't understand that. You don't have to look. the only thing it does it hurts you and potential progress. I think you should be honest...you wanted to look. If you want to keep touching the hot stove, you know the consequences. But snooping can be an addiction in itself. You have to guard for that.

I kinda agree/don't agree with your IC. In my situation I probably had too many relationship chats with the wife. Sometimes they sucked, other times they brought clarity. But have to remember that anything your W tells sincerely in a R chat is how they are feeling at that moment. It's not how they feel for the end or time.

I don't agree having an R chat constantly or to rehash over old things. I would be more strategic. There were times in my situation where and R chat was absolutely necessary. Other times where I probably could have let it go. Believe me, I got hammered for it on here.

That touching the hot stove analogy was funny. You're right in that I wanted to look. Why...maybe for closure? I guess if I ever have to make the call to file it helps me feel less guilty than if it stopped after I caught it initally.

Regarding R chats, I agree that some may be necessary, at least in situations like our where we are looking at long term coexisting in one house, and to relieve some tension. Early on, they seemed successful. W tried to make it work short term, wrote to OM to tell him goodbye, actually started R chats, agreed to counseling and even emailed me a letter of apology. When I stopped the chats, I think OM snuck back in and we ended up in silent angry limbo. This is not to say I think R chats are great either, I agree on strategic.

Originally Posted by Steve85
Core, I was like you in the beginning, always claiming "I just had to look". My troubles with not snooping are documented in my threads. Truth is, we don't have to. And as others have said, it rarely improves things and almost always makes them worse. Just like R talks. That is why we advocate not starting them. And if you get dragged into one to listen, and validate.

Read the validation thread. Validating is a money technique! Why? Because your W will feel heard and will feel that her feelings are understood without you agreeing to anything she says. It is powerful in any relationship, not just in your marriage. Shoot, I've even used it on other posters!

Study validation and master it, it will work wonders in your sitch.


I swear validation is like learning another language. A very useful one, to carry throughout life. Hard to learn at first, how long did it take you? In regards to snooping, you're right, all I get from it is anger and sadness.

Originally Posted by Mach1


How much of that can YOU control ??

How much of that can you change ??

What if you can't change any of it ??

What happens if you can't control the outcome of this ??

Who are you left with, if things don't turn out the way you want them to ??

How does he navigate through all of that ???

I'm still thinking about your "love is what you give" comment and now you blow my mind with this. My mind is fighting answering them as it knows the answer is to let go of control. I read this hours ago and still keep coming back to think deeper.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
Core...just because someone texted your W on NYE doesn’t mean they are close. I had about six texts on NYE. Regardless...you are making this about him and it is not about him. The issues you and your W had were present long before he showed up on the scene. He is a symptom of and her current “solution” to her unhappiness. The more you focus on him, the more likely it is you will push the two of them together. Stop trying to figure that part of your sitch out. You have no control over it anyway and it only feeds the anger and resentment that you feel. Let it go. Let her go.

Focus on you and your kids. Be the best dad you can be to them with or without her. Quality time is more important than quantity. Continue to set a good example for them when they are with you. They won’t remember the details...just how they felt. Make sure they feel loved, supported, respected and safe. My kids did 100% better when they saw that I was okay...regardless of what their dad was doing. My biggest regret is that they saw me sad and weepy in the beginning because it scared them. Now they see nothing but a confident and happy mom and this has had a great effect. It is not what I wanted. It kills me they don’t get the intact family that I had growing up. But it is what it is and I have no choice but to accept it and make the best of the situation.

Also...regarding R talks...it’s not that you can’t have them...if you do, it should be her initiating and you should focus on listening and validating and not on trying to control the outcome. If you try to push someone, or pull them, before they are ready, the natural inclination is for them to push back or pull away. Don’t force this unless you are prepared to deal with an unwanted outcome.

I know how hard this is. Just stay the course and focus on you. It gets better with time. I promise. (((HUGS)))


DV, thank you. Your comment on the kids remembering how they feel struck a cord. Thought about my on childhood and a lot was about how I felt, not exact words. The text came from a scrambled number generated for secrecy, one which started when OM appeared. Still not hard evidence but close and...I do need to stop thinking about it. I see now I attached to W again over the holidays.

Im glad you gathered the strength and were the pillar for your kids. At least one parent needs to be a solid foundation for them and you found a way.

Originally Posted by unchien

Core ~ I react strongly to your thread because I see a lot of myself in you.

I should be clear what I mean by emotional awareness - I mean understanding not just my emotions, but also how they are entangled with thoughts. One feeds the other. Anxiety is a beast... even thinking about your anxiety makes you anxious, right? That impulse to resolve anxiety has driven me to make some really lousy and unhealthy choices.

As far as concerns about your kids, I moved out 6 months ago, and the QUALITY of my time with my kids has grown exponentially. I'm not saying that happens for everyone. But it seems the study was wrong in my case. Studies are conglomerations of statistics. Studies are often designed to give the desired answer for whomever designed it. Studies probably show your MR probably has <50% chance of R. Does that mean you are going to give up? Of course not. You are 1 of 1, screw the statistics.

Sorry if the above comes across strongly. It's taken some 2x4s from the vets to help me snap out of some deeply entrenched patterns.


U, keep the 2x4s coming! I work in statistics, its hard ro disregard them yet you are dead on with your comment on studies being designed to answer for whomever designed it. Its also very easy to sway stats to prove a point with little or no correlation.

The quality time with the kids, I'm glad you mentioned that as well. Reminds me of how much fun I had when it was just me and the kids for several days. It was incredible. We ate what I wanted, slept great and did a number of fun things without someone else trying to control, judge or be critical of me and what we were doing.

Keep on that fight against anxiety, its like were side by side in the battle.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

I love what Mach posted on love being giving. It really is, and it reminds of spiritual teachings, not that he intended that. I am an inherently selfish person so those words resonated with me. Mach's questions take me back to me football playing/coaching days and my time in boot camp. You must have a PMA. Always! If you focus on things out of your control, you are not gaining ground towards the things you can control. My attitude change away from this mindset is why I got BD'd. Point blank, that is it. Never again....

I love that we have some of the old brass gathering round in your thread too. Thanks to Mario and Mach for dropping in.

My first IC/MC was giving me advice that was contrary to DB, as was my second IC. I found one I really like now. She doesn't know DB by trade, few do. I've been with this one over a year now and she can relate to DB.

I do think that MWD has the right approach with her 8 & 16 hour intensives. How much of your story can you convey in 1 hour per week? Your IC may have some great advice too though. What is he or she saying that is anti DB? DB means doing what works you know...

Core, I see you stressing over time and how you lament having no control other than filing for D. This is how your W felt for a long time I imagine: torn between her vows and her current desire to want to leave and live a "better" life. You need no imagination to see that she was and your are in this position where the promise to your spouse and your desire to be happy are at odds.

MWD advocates a bit of snooping to see what needs he/she is meeting for your spouse. I think you know now, so consider no more snooping.


Validation, attention, confidence and composure is what she's getting from OM. You're right in that there's no more need to snoop. Half of what he's is giving or maybe gave her, I simply can't give if we talk only business. Partially why I lean towards occasional R chats.

Interesting to hear the perspective of your IC relating to DB. Mine is anti DB in their opinion and experience, I should have R chats to clear up W's festering resentments and to set the record straight on things that didnt happen (rewriting of the past stuff, or miscommunications).

How long did it take to rebuild your PMA? I'm there with you, I had that and confidence in spades before I shifted focus and lost the alpha.

Originally Posted by IronWill
Hey Core -

The one thing i would highly recommend is stopping the snooping.

Ask yourself - has it ever made you feel any better afterwards? Or has it made you feel worse?

Does snooping allow you to change what your W is doing?

What are you planning to do with this information that you gather from snooping?

Point is - and I'm just guessing here - it probably makes you feel like [censored] afterwards, then you get angry, then bitter, then resentment builds. And I'm gonna go out on a ledge here and suggest that those feelings are projected in an outward manner, which makes you look and feel even worse, etc etc. IMO that is not a good position to be in, especially if you would like a possible chance at Recon way way way far down the road.

Wow, THIS ^^. All of it. What I wanted to gather from snooping is nothing, so as to get some self respect back and lower my hostility however I found what I found and the result was exactly what you wrote.

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