Another case of WW (Part 2) - DivorceBusting.com

Part 1 - https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2866912#Post2866912

Update...

Friendsgiving went well... went out of town to visit a friend, and slept on a couch for 4 days. Happy to be home, but going on a much longer trip again this weekend.

WW e-mailed yesterday saying she lost her cell phone while on her work trip, and needed some information from the joint plan to replace the phone. Thought about replying with the tough sh*t route, go figure it out yourself or get a plan with OM. But felt like that would have just escalated the situation / tension. I did end up helping her with the necessary information.

Some reflections / thoughts so far...

Been reading thru some of the older threads by other folks, I'm envious of people who busted the affair via exposure. I keep thinking I should have exposed to OMW, even though OM is now getting a D anyways. I'm envious couples with live-in situations where there are opportunities to DB on a daily basis. I feel like right now we have so limited interaction, seems like occasional text every 2-3 weeks now, it all seems like it's just slowly fading away.

Was wondering maybe I should have let WW move back in when she mentioned it 4 weeks after moving out (it's 10 weeks now), but I really needed to gain back some respect and provide my non-negotiable boundaries at the time, since I had been a doormat up until that point.

Maybe I'm bartering again, or forgetting how painful it was everyday listening to lies and her not coming home some nights. I wish I would have discovered DB and 180s earlier, rather than making the situation worse for 2 months after BD.

Question...

I believe WW is going on a trip with her family later in Dec. As I mentioned earlier, her parents are aware of the initial discovery of the affair and text. Her parents are pro-marriage and upon discovery were sympathetic as they would ask me if I was okay and hugged me.

However, I have not spoken with them in 10+ weeks, and I assume they are now aware of the situation escalating since I skipped family functions over the holidays. I was debating whether to meet up with them to update them on the situation, and let them know where I stand so they don't think I am abandoning the MR. My concern is that it will travel back to WW, and it comes off as pursuit.

Thoughts on whether I should talk to the parents?

Should I have said tough sh*t to the cell phone ordeal?

Originally Posted by LovingIt

Thoughts on whether I should talk to the parents?

No don't discuss it with them, they will absolutely side with her no matter how strong you think your relationship with them is. "Blood is thicker than water" absolutely applies. Many LBS's have thought they had helpful in-laws only to get blind-sided later. It's fine to remain friendly with them, but no R talk. If they bring it up then just say the two of you are taking some time to sort things out and leave it at that.

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Should I have said tough sh*t to the cell phone ordeal?

If you refused to help then she would probably see it as you being petty/ vindictive. Helping her doesn't really help your sitch, but not helping her may hurt your sitch. I see things like this as kind of neutral, just make sure that if/ when you help her you do it with no expectations.

L,

You�re operating under the �illusion of action� where you still think doing something or something different is going to change your situation around. It doesn�t work that way. Time and space.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Originally Posted by LovingIt

Thoughts on whether I should talk to the parents?

No don't discuss it with them, they will absolutely side with her no matter how strong you think your relationship with them is. "Blood is thicker than water" absolutely applies. Many LBS's have thought they had helpful in-laws only to get blind-sided later. It's fine to remain friendly with them, but no R talk. If they bring it up then just say the two of you are taking some time to sort things out and leave it at that.
...

I absolutely understand that they will side with her, and my relationship isn't that strong with in-laws. My thinking was to clarify our situation in that I did not choose for WW to move out, and that I'm standing for the MR and not abandoning it. I guess not filing for D would already indicate that from my end. I would have to intentionally reach out to talk to them, otherwise there's no chance of me interacting with them.

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I'm envious of people who busted the affair via exposure. I keep thinking I should have exposed to OMW, even though OM is now getting a D anyways. I'm envious couples with live-in situations where there are opportunities to DB on a daily basis. I feel like right now we have so limited interaction, seems like occasional text every 2-3 weeks now, it all seems like it's just slowly fading away.

Sandi2 is a big believer in busting affairs right out of the box, though not by "exposing" (which carries risks of being ineffective or looking "weak", especially if you create "boundaries" you cant enforce, of creating an "us against the world" mentality, and of "burning bridges" rather than "keeping the road home paved smooth.") I believe her take is that if most LBH's, when FIRST faced with BD, said "I am not going to share my W or live in an open marriage, get out now, you hussy" (in other words, effectively dropping a bomb of their own) the timeline for recovery of the WW would be somewhat to substantially shortened. At some point they need to feel the shock and sting of loss, sooner or later. For my own part, I am a believer in several things regarding affairs: 1) No work can be done on reconciling or repairing the MR as long as OM is anywhere in the picture. 2) While ending the affair is a condition precedent, it is not sufficient in and of itself to lead to reconciliation (you both will have work to do in that regard on the issues that led to marital damage prior to the affair) 3) Affairs are easier to end the less involved they are-- Inappropriate friendships are more easily broken off than emotional affairs, Emotional affairs are more easily broken off than physical affairs (some will challenge this, but it is based on science-- physical skin to skin contact releases oxytocin, also called the "bonding hormone"). As such, you should take whatever action you appropriately can, as soon as you can, to set and enforce your boundaries and, if you take the more aggressive route, of exposing or threatening to expose the adulterers. My own situation ended up in reconcilliation, but i did NOT get off to a great start-- didn't set boundaries, enabled her affair, etc-- and, as a result, what had started out as an inappropriate friendship with oversharing and only a borderline EA, became a full fledged "I want to jump on you and run away with you" limerance-ridden "Ive found my soulmate" EA and, possibly (though i never found out for sure) PA. I am convinced, and you will never change my mind, that if i had taken stronger action at BD, either in terms of my own boundaries or in terms of confronting/exposing OM (and i had several unique levers available to me had i chosen to use them), that at least THAT affair (and admittedly a WW can always find other APs) would have been headed off and, possibly the timeline for our own reconciliation advanced.

OTOH, since we werent' even friends at that point she may have just told me to "Eff off" and walked out straight into his arms. Impossible to say, really, though i got to watch her evolution, firsthand, and you could see the effect the progression of the affair had on her and, by extension, on our initial forays into reconciliation.

As to being in the same house and having the opportunity for interaction and witnessing of your DB-ing, it is really hard to say what is best. In my own sitch, it worked out very well-- mabye the only way it COULD have worked out well-- for us to be cohabitating for the bulk of that time. However, at the end of the day, some level of detachment and, yes, separation seems to always be required to get over the hump. In my case, I did a fair job of detachment later on in the process and, ultimately, our full separation lasted only two weeks... but, brief as it was, it was definitely a required step on our path to reuniting. There are a few situations like mine where some degree of cohabitation worked out or was even on some level beneficial, but you will not find a single situation on here (except maybe Sandi2s) that didn't involve some period of true separation, always at least emotional, and, in almost all cases, physical.

Originally Posted by LovingIt

I keep thinking I should have

Timing is critically important. Do things at the right time for the right reason.

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Thoughts on whether I should talk to the parents?

No.

What is your plan?

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

What is your plan?

My plan regarding the sitch overall? Speaking with parents? Helping with cell phone?

Overall - Nothing for now... keep DB-ing: GAL, 180, tough love, detach.

Parent - Leave it alone.

Cell phone - Helped and done.

Downloaded and read Love Must Be Tough yesterday, and finished reading most of it today, since I keep seeing it being referenced in threads here. Seems to reiterate all the same stuff here about tough love, which makes me feel better about not jumping on the opportunity to have her move back in when my non-negotiables boundaries were clearly not met. Also starting to get a better grasp of the balance of being cold vs tough love / detach.

About to get ready to go on a 3-week trip out of country starting this weekend, so nothing will happen between now and then.

I think what happened was that I read these old threads with a lot of daily interactions, and I get envious of the small positives they get from DB, but then when you get to the end of the threads, the final outcome is often no better :P

WOOOOOT! I made it into the quotes of fame. Shout out to myself. *raise the roof*

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2875050#Post2875050

Originally Posted by LovingIt

WOOOOOT! I made it into the quotes of fame. Shout out to myself. *raise the roof*

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2875050#Post2875050

You are doing the hard work. Keep it up.

Originally Posted by LovingIt

Overall - Nothing for now... keep DB-ing: GAL, 180, tough love, detach.
:P

Make your comments concrete. No more vague. own your destiny.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by LovingIt

Overall - Nothing for now... keep DB-ing: GAL, 180, tough love, detach.
:P

Make your comments concrete. No more vague. own your destiny.

What do you mean by concrete? Like specifics of what I will be doing for GAL, 180, tough love, detach?

Originally Posted by LovingIt

What do you mean by concrete? Like specifics of what I will be doing for GAL, 180, tough love, detach?

Yes. The details matter. So many people stay in the abstract concepts. Posters need to be in the details.

I know you are reading like crazy here. I check who is online and I see you reading good threads.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

Originally Posted by LovingIt

What do you mean by concrete? Like specifics of what I will be doing for GAL, 180, tough love, detach?

Yes. The details matter. So many people stay in the abstract concepts. Posters need to be in the details.

I know you are reading like crazy here. I check who is online and I see you reading good threads.

Yes, I do read like crazy... sometime I get caught up in a sitch from like 2008 - 2010 that spans like 5 threads, and I'm up till 5 am reading :P

Okay... let's give concrete a shot...

GAL
- Mondays - gym after work
- Tuesday / Thursday - basketball
- Wednesdays - still figuring it out - maybe indoor bike trainer or chores at home. also looking into some volunteer such as tutoring, local food bank, or find classes to learn how to cook
- Friday / Saturday - same as before, hangout with friends, go out dancing if there's a good show in town... until there's snow on the hills, then I'll be snowboarding

- Sunday - football / golf / biking / snowboard (depending on season), house chores

I found that partying with friends doesn't actually make me feel any better after though - it's a good distraction but I don't grow from it. Would like to meet some new friends, so hoping volunteering or cooking classes could help with that.

Reading and researching some the recommended books and learning actually makes me feel better. I'm a very logical person, so I find that the research helps me make sense of the sitch and why / how we are here, and the data and pattern makes it less personal, so I don't feel like WW is the single worst person in the world doing this to me specifically.

180
- No more angry outbursts
- No more childish possessive behavior
- Keep the home tidy
- Stop hoarding, donate unused stuff
- Put a little more effort into my appearance, I'm in good physical shape but I get away with dressing too casual working in tech
- Read more books - prior to this, I never really read that much
- Cut back on drinking and smoking (next year, after my trip)

Tough love
- No contacting WW
- Be neutral when interacting with WW (earlier, I mistakenly took "tough love" as being cold)
- Be independent and confident

Detach
- Be okay with any outcome
- Stop trying to "win"

Ugh... watching the new Netflix movie "Marriage Story"... hits a little close to home

Happy 2020 everyone! Here's to a new and better year to you all!

It's been awhile since I updated... I went on an 3 week trip out of country... 2 weeks with friends and 1 week with family.

The 2 week trip with friends was amazing, exactly what I needed to GAL... my friends and I spent sometime in Thailand/Bangkok, and that place can do wonders for lonely dudes... I'll leave the details out if you are not familiar with it ;P We also did a 6 day motorcycle touring trip in the northern mountain regions of Vietnam/Hanoi thru some local villages meeting/drinking with local folks.

I have to say, this is the first time in months that I have felt excitement and happiness just by thinking about the trip experience.

Most of my extended family know about the sitch now, and they are all surprised and supportive of me in either outcome.

I always knew that I was obsessing too much about the sitch day to day. But I'm finding myself wanting to do that less and less after this trip. My internal goal was always to be able to really move on, and be able to focused by new year 2020, and I think I'm on track to do that.

Mentally and emotionally, I feel like I'm much less motivated for this to work out.

That sounds like a fantastic trip, and sounds like it was really good for your PMA too! Awesome! Here's to new experiences in the new year

Update...

As mentioned in my earlier post that I genuinely felt happy for the first time in months after my trip. My co-workers even teased me that I finally looked happy again. I finally stopped obsessing about this all day, scouring the forum for answers.

Then guess what happened tonight... I get a stream of 50 angry texts from WW about me not responding. I assumed she was drunk. I call her back after 30 minutes of text me from her, and she says that she wants to get back together and she has been trying for months (while hanging out with OM still). She starts crying and saying she has had months to think and she wants to work on the relationship. She is willing to quit her job and stop talking to OM as they have not spoke in 2 weeks.

Anyways, I find it interesting that vets always said that when you truly move on and detach is when they come back. I don�t know how real her attempt is.

Undecided about what I want to do. Leaning towards no right now, but then I still have to deal with D.

You are very wise to be skeptic. Tread lightly my friend.

Hi LovingIt,

Just wanted to chime in and say hi. I'm a newcomer so not much advice. Just to say I feel I am in a similar situation to you, where wife is separated, no kids or anything to really tie us together, so communication is very limited. I understand when you say you are envious of the other threads where it seems like they have something going on each day.

I like how you sum it up though, when you get to the end it's the same situation we are in. So just need to move forward!

If you are still wanting to start to reconcile that move from your wife must feel somewhat good. I know it would for me! I agree with LH19, certainly need to take it slow and make sure you know what your boundaries are and stick to them. I've read through your last thread and it seems she has done this in the past only to leave again.

Update... met up with WW last night and spoke for 5+ hours.

I was pretty surgical, so not a lot of emotion from my end. She just said that she had a lot of time to think, and she recognizes the value I bring to the relationship more so than the affection that she was seeking, and expressed that she would like to either move back or work on the relationship. I pretty much confronted her on living with OM, and said that I don't see a path back at this point. Maybe years down the road after we both move on, clean break, and date other people. I think she was a bit shocked and holding back tears, and saying that this will be one of her biggest regret in life.

I ended up asking for the home keys back from her, so she can't just drop in and out. Discussed how/what assets will need to be split up, and she asked that I put together some numbers.

It's a bit of bitter sweet... because even yesterday, we can talk and laugh about so many things. But honestly, now that I am detached, I can't envision being intimate physically and emotionally with her again. Whenever I do envision reconciliation, I just see her struggling with a clean no contact with OM and more of the same lies again.

I did grab food and drinks with her after, and dropped her off at OM's place since it was like 1 am at that point. I know it's a chump move, but I'm done DB'ing, so she can think of me however she likes. She did drunk text me 2 am about still staying over?

In summary, DB'ing works at least up to this point. Unfortunately, I won't be able to provide any future insights into how real her turnaround is, or how reconciliation and piecing works.

Funny how often that happens. The by the time the WAW wants to come back to the marriage, the other spouse is just done, and wants nothing to do with them. Some actually do come full circle, as I did oh, so I would urge you to keep an open mind, and heart, in case she ever does turn back and goes back to resembling the girl you fell in love with. Either way, keep up with your self-improvement and GALs, I'm glad to hear that you are moving forward!

Not sure if I'm hung over, and/or dealing with the emotional repercussions of the conversation, but I do feel a little down today.

There's always a 1% left in my mind and heart, and I don't expect that to go away completely, or wait for absolute 0%. But I know I don't want to deal with someone jumping back and forth from one person to the next. After reading and learning about healthy relationships, I want to be with someone who's done the work to be independent and happy with themselves before engaging in relationship again.

I'll continue to read books to learn about myself and improve myself emotionally. I'm starting to realize that I have fear of intimacy / vulnerability issues, and that's something I need to figure out for future relationships.

Just checking in to see how you are doing. Hope to hear from you.

Ready to Change....................

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I know you are reading like crazy here. I check who is online and I see you reading good threads.

How can you tell who is online and see what they are reading?

Originally Posted by sandi2

How can you tell who is online and see what they are reading?

If you click your user name below michele's video, there is a "who is online"

https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=online

LovingIt, are you still around?

HI EVERYONE - Yes, I'm still alive! Hope everyone is well! I miss everyone here.

My goal coming into the new year 2020 was to move on and not dwell on my situation every day and be able to truly detach, so I have been focusing on work and real life rather than spending my time on the board.

Status update...

I'm currently moving forward with the refinance of the home to my name only, so I can buy out my WW (STBXW at this point).

We are still amicable. She claims that I gave up on the relationship. I just laugh and remind her that she's moved in and is still living with OM.

On a more interesting note...

I've been learning more deeply about Myers Briggs (MBTI) in hopes of understanding myself and other future potential partners better, and tested that I am an INTJ. It's surprising how accurate some of the descriptions are in how I am in relationships as well as my strengths and weaknesses.

I asked my WW about it, and she said that she tested ENTJ before. I think both of us were very similar - cold and logical (not emotional) in relationships, but we both had emotional needs that the others were not able to provide each other aside from the shared activities that we had.

I strongly suggest that every couple take the MBTI questionnaires to understand themselves and their partner better. It can help fill in some of the gaps, along with other relationship theories such as 5 Love Languages, etc.

I'm an ESTJ. Don't know how I always remember that. My wife was almost the opposite of that. But I forget her exact letters.

If be interested in hearing more of how you think it affects MRs.

Steve85 - MBTI is just another system to better understand yourself and each other. Complete opposite of ESTJ would be INFP.

There are some good resources on this... 16Personalities and PersonalityHacker. Read about yourself and see if you think it's accurate description of yourself in relationships and work place. It's good to understand your own strength / weakness, so that you can become more mature and improve in those areas.

For me being INTJ... I am a thinker, and not a feeler. Any emotions I feel, I tend to want to be able to logically explain it or dismiss it. In relationships, I'm not very warn and affectionate, but I will pay close attention and remember things that you may like or need, and demonstrate it thru acts of service or gifts. So I have to work on being in touch with my feeling more, and being more in the moment rather than in my head.

I recently spoke to someone who is an ENFP... she is a feeler. If you talk to her about dates she's been on, she just tells you that most of them had no feeling, but she can't tell you logically why it was the case. I wanted to tell her that feelings can often be wrong, and that she should be more logical. But once I learned more about ENFP, I came to the realization that people are just different, and I should just understand and appreciate her.

Part of my growth in life has been learning to be "the opposite". For example, I can float my behavior between the two extremes of being an introvert or extrovert. One side is just naturally easier.