Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Core Is there hope? - 12/03/19 04:57 PM
Hi All,

I'm hoping for any and all advice. Where to start. I have D4, S1. Married 5 years, together 7. I suffer from anxiety and had my eyes opened recently, by learning my "Nice Guy syndrome" has returned for the past couple of years.

My anxiety seemed ok to me but flares over safety issues or during heated spousal arguments. Definitely something I needed to manage earlier in hindsight. The more I reflect, the more I see how bad I was. Up until September we seemed normal minus being a little more argumentative which I attributed to sleep loss and a number of unexpected house issues and family health concerns. In Sept, my W and I decided to put in an offered on a new house which was accepted. I ended up having a concern with mold on the property and pulled the offer. My wife said this would hurt her but I sadly did it anyway.  She said to "do what I want". I regret this day.

We had a number of serious fights after, including me saying I wont change, (in that I wont stop having health concerns for the kids but I would manage my anxiety). I got in to counseling, started meds and felt great. W noticed I was improving. We had normal texts expressing love toward each other. Well, by late Sept i got the ILYBINILWY and I love you like a brother. One week later the bomb was dropped. Two days later she got cold, mean and said she never loved me, were not right for each other, ill never change, were not fixable etc. I broke just about every DB rule the first few days, expressing my love, how I'll change, how others have survived and recovered. She took a preplanned business trip to europe. During her trip, she didnt contact me or the kids once. Upon return we started splitting who gets the bedroom every other day.

About 14 days in to this, I learned by looking at texts that she contacted an ex two states over the day before she asked for D. I learned that she looked him up the day after we pulled the offer on the house. Two days in to their text history, I saw her give the date they first chatted on the phone (D Day). Three days in to chatting it looks like he dropped an ILY on her and she felt the same. She mentioned moving and taking the kids about 4 hours away. For my dignity and sake of the kids, I immediately confronted and advised I will get a lawyer. Over the next day it seemed like we had really productive chats. She said she messaged the other guy and broke it off but wouldnt show me the message due to trust violations. We agreed to counseling. All was awkward but ok up to counseling. Counseling was not good however as she said she was not willing to work on us or continue on after that session. She agreed to a one on one therapy.

Within a week I was shown an edited version of what the OM was sent as a goodbye and I received an email stating that she is sorry and wants to work on herself. I was hopeful. She showed remorse, sorrow and a willingness to improve herself as I was already. I thought my 180s may have had an effect.

She later cancelled the 1-1 and I panicked, telling her something quite hurtful. I was advised it was the worst thing anyone has ever said to her. She advised she wants to continue on the path to divorce via mediation and she was giving me time which I requested early on.  I told her that her current mediation plan wont work as she knows the mediators (as suggested by my counselor). She asked me what I wanted to do as an alternative and I said IDK.

We've been in limbo since. We had a great Thanksgiving, are talking about xmas, she called me for the first time to talk about my opinion on gifts, has made some of my favorite dinners and we've smiled and laughed together.

I dont know if she is WAS or WW at this point. Do I get her xmas gifts? Should I be distancing or making her laugh and having her see my changes in person. She asks where I'm going when I leave, and tells me where she is going. As we've the two kids, I'm not sure if we are keeping the peace or on a slow recovery. What are your thoughts? I'm in so much pain over how I've made her feel, where I am now and for the kids.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 05:02 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: LostRose Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 05:28 PM
I'm sorry you're going through this. How old is your wife? I see your kids are pretty young. Does she usually contact them when away for business trips? I kind of feel like your wife might be about to have a midlife crisis, just because of her attitude towards the kids while away from home, but I don't have enough info about how she normally is.

I would really work hard on yourself. Get your anxiety under control, and validate your wife's feelings. That should help lots. Don't let your guard down just because she seems remorseful. She's likely still looking to make an exit.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 06:11 PM
Thank you LostRose.

We are 37W and 36H. I agree, after reading about MLC, this seems like I drove her to an early MLC.

On the other end, it seems like an EA still. She is up late with lights on, "sleeps in" late and restroom trips take awhile, which are attributed to "stomache issues". I've no evidence that is it continuing however and for all I know, she is staying up reading or working on herself. With technology these days, I feel like its near impossible to root out at this point. Also, her phone password has changed. I think I'm just avoiding the truth. Either way, I dont know if treating as a WAS or a WW is best as Ive no evidence.

Either way, she was WW before turning WAS quickly. If i treat as a WAS, am I missing the root WW needs?
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Core
What are your thoughts?
You are being too nice.You can't nice her back. You are in "Friend zone" and you do not want to be there.

I lump all the changes you need to make into "Alpha male" behavior. Rewiring your thought processes, behaviors and actions are critically important right now.

Read this post:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2846984


Research as much as you can about attraction and seduction and understand the difference.


Understand this: The rules have changed. Learn the new rules quickly and play by the new rules.


I wish you well.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 06:15 PM
Oh my, I meant to add that I changed minor details for confidentiality but I need to be clear and direct if I'm asking you all for help. She didn't take a business trip, but a preplanned vacation. She is a stay at home mom. She would normally contact us daily to talk to me and the kids while away.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 07:06 PM
@Ready2Change

I appreciate the feedback and info. Ready to do anything to restore the family. Going through the link now. I also downloaded and am mostly through No More Mr Nice Guy. I used to read The Game and the like. Man, did I ever get soft after being married and having a daughter.

Im several weeks in to this stitch so hopefully no too little too late, which she has actually stated.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Up until September we seemed normal minus being a little more argumentative which I attributed to sleep loss and a number of unexpected house issues and family health concerns. In Sept, my W and I decided to put in an offered on a new house which was accepted. I ended up having a concern with mold on the property and pulled the offer. My wife said this would hurt her but I sadly did it anyway.  She said to "do what I want". I regret this day.


This is not the problem. You said later that she contacted OM the day after you pulled the offer. That CLEARLY says that she was already thinking about an affair. The house thing was just "the final straw" for her to pull the trigger on making contact. Be glad that you didn't go through with the deal, because my brother did. Little did he know his W had been planning her escape for quite some time, but wanted to buy a bigger house because she thought "maybe it will change things", which of course it did not. So on top of an affair, separation and divorce, my brother found himself in desperate financial condition because of the new house, and he still hasn't recovered from it (it's been around 8 years).

Quote
She took a preplanned business trip to europe. During her trip, she didnt contact me or the kids once.


You can bet she was burning up OM's phone though.

Quote
She said she messaged the other guy and broke it off but wouldnt show me the message due to trust violations.


Classic gaslighting. Are you familiar with the term? Google it if not. Know what it means and understand it so you can recognize when she does it again (which she will). The affair more than likely continues. She's just gone deeper undercover after getting busted.

Quote
We've been in limbo since. We had a great Thanksgiving, are talking about xmas, she called me for the first time to talk about my opinion on gifts, has made some of my favorite dinners and we've smiled and laughed together.


Don't read anything into it, it's really just an indication that she's not feeling pressured. She's still quietly planning her escape though.

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I dont know if she is WAS or WW at this point.


Sounds like a WW.

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Do I get her xmas gifts?


If you do then put the kids' names on them. Don't get her anything personal like a sexy nightie or anything like that.

Quote
Should I be distancing or making her laugh and having her see my changes in person. She asks where I'm going when I leave, and tells me where she is going. As we've the two kids, I'm not sure if we are keeping the peace or on a slow recovery. What are your thoughts?


My thoughts are she's biding her time, this probably isn't a recovery. Recoveries while living under the same roof are very unusual. I'm not trying to kill your hopes, but rather give you some realistic expectations. These situations take a long time to resolve.

Regarding her long bathroom breaks and such, it is exactly what you think it is.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 08:40 PM
"Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does". Learn it and live it.

Have no expectations from her (like her being around for Xmas for example).

Detach from her. It means don't get angry with her. Don't let her have an effect on your mood.

Think and act, don't feel and react. The "Feel & React" approach is how most drive the nails into the coffin after BD in my opinion. Nothing requires an immediate response so remember that and learn how to validate and respond without injecting your views too much.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 08:47 PM
@AnotherStrander
That is horrible to hear what happened to your brother. I just cannot imagine doing to someone what happened to him, I and others on this board.

All,
I've browsed the forums for a few weeks and havent seen anything quite like my situation. What have others done in a similar scenario? On one end Im 99% sure I'm a sucker and am supporting W while she has an affair, on the other end, I have my house, home cooked food, saving financial hardship and the best possible baby sitter for my kids. My D resolves her playstyle and actions around family. Just about every game she plays involves there being a mom, dad and kids. Just heartbreaking. I went down the rabbit hole of effects of affairs and divorce on kids, wish i didn't do that.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I used to read The Game and the like.
Read it again. All the PUA stuff is invaluable during this process.

Read this post for more ideas:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061094#Post2061094
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
"Don't believe anything she says and only half of what she does". Learn it and live it.

Have no expectations from her (like her being around for Xmas for example).

Detach from her. It means don't get angry with her. Don't let her have an effect on your mood.

Think and act, don't feel and react. The "Feel & React" approach is how most drive the nails into the coffin after BD in my opinion. Nothing requires an immediate response so remember that and learn how to validate and respond without injecting your views too much.


^^^EXACTLY^^^

Originally Posted by Core
Ready to do anything to restore the family.


A lot of LBS's say that, but they're really not willing to do "anything". Because the one thing they really need to do is let go, detach and drop the rope. Almost none are willing to for months and months, so they keep pursuing and hanging on and calling it something else. In one breath it's "I've detached and it feels good!" and in the next "my W did XYZ and I'm so upset, what do I do?" and in the next "should I buy her presents and ask her out on dates?" Not detached.

She will not even think about coming back as long as she knows you are Plan B. It is a paradox. These lines from the movie Swingers help explain it:

MIKE
And what if I don't want to give up on her?

ROB
You don't call.

MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I wanted to give up on her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So I don't call either way.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So what's the difference?

ROB
The only difference between giving up and not giving up is if you take her back when she wants to come back. See, you can't do anything to make her want to come back. You can only do things to make her not want to come back.

MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget about her or pretend to forget about her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
Well that su***.

ROB
It su***.

MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision. So I could, like, let's say, forget about her and when she comes back make like I just pretended to forget about her.

ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.

MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?

ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care, not call - whatever, and then, eventually, you really won't care.

MIKE
Unless she comes back first.

ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they don't come back until you really don't care anymore.

MIKE
There's the rub.

ROB
There's the rub.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 09:45 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Upon return we started splitting who gets the bedroom every other day.


No more splitting the room. You sleep there every night.

Read ALL these threads for insight:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=41275


W:"What are you doing in here bla bla bla bla we had an agreement bla bla bla"
H:"I decided it is best if I sleep in MB from now on. You are free to sleep wherever you like"
W"Bla bla bla bla"
H:I am sorry you feel that way"
W"Bla bla bla bla"
H"you sound angry. Is that how you feel?"
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Core
@AnotherStrander
That is horrible to hear what happened to your brother. I just cannot imagine doing to someone what happened to him, I and others on this board.

All,
I've browsed the forums for a few weeks and havent seen anything quite like my situation. What have others done in a similar scenario? On one end Im 99% sure I'm a sucker and am supporting W while she has an affair, on the other end, I have my house, home cooked food, saving financial hardship and the best possible baby sitter for my kids. My D resolves her playstyle and actions around family. Just about every game she plays involves there being a mom, dad and kids. Just heartbreaking. I went down the rabbit hole of effects of affairs and divorce on kids, wish i didn't do that.

It takes a lot of time to read these sitches and see what really went down, but you're story is quite similar to the others.

For example: A depressed LBS, LBS gets meds/counseling, WW/WAS on the fence doesn't know what he/she wants, cake eating, affairs, you confront and she appeases and hides... sounds pretty similar.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Do I get her xmas gifts?
You help your kids give her gifts. You do this every year.

Since your kids are young, I would do something like a hand print gift. I had a DIY pottery place that I took my kids to. We made a serving platter with our hand prints. In your case, just have D4 hand prints and son1 foot print.

The point is have it personal from the kids, not you. Always be a great dad.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/03/19 11:35 PM
I'm loving all the advice. Here's where I'm stuck before I implement going dark. Literally ever person I've talked to in person says to kill her with kindness. Be the best husband and dad possible. Give gifts and repent. Compliment and build her confidence. I hear this from my counselor as well as someone who was on the brink of divorce themselves. That all seems to be from the heart and DB seems to be tactics. Do we have success stories around people whom did the opposite of some DB rules and pursued, etc?

One of the reasons I think she went wayward was the lack of attention, no spontaneity, kids came first. Shouldn't these be my 180s? If she is having an EA, I have the home court advantage. I see her in person daily, she can see I'm a great dad and I can beat the guy at his own game. He was sweet talking I'm sure and mailed her a gift. I know its all against the DB rules but how do we know which path is better?
Posted By: may22 Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 03:05 AM
Hey Core,

My sitch bears some similarities to yours. 2 kids, H still in the house/MB, confirmed EA, etc. Have you read the DR book? You might not be at the "going dark" or LRT phase-- you may still be in the 180s as long as you are avoiding all pursuing behaviors. My coach advised treating him like a beloved houseguest-- nice, friendly, fun, but nothing that could be perceived as pressure or pursuing. Marathon not a sprint. GAL.

It seems on these boards that there are more specific recommendations for LBHs around regaining respect from your W that I can't really help with, but there are plenty of threads with info and you have the vets above on your side! I'm just a newbie too but hang in there!
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 04:51 AM
Hey May22,

I'm so sorry you are going through something so similar. I like the advise, its neither manipulation nor pursuing, just being what you need to be, especially for the kids.

I definitely know where I lost respect....so many regrets! Earning it back through tough love is a priority.

Going to take a look at your sitch. Nice in a way to relate. I wish you and the family the best.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 03:48 PM
Bump
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 05:35 PM
I know you're bumping for more advice, anything in particular?

I would advise rereading everything posted so far. It takes several times to really absorb the info IMO.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 05:50 PM
Almost through all the material. Whats blocking me is everyone I've talked to in person says to kill her with kindness. Be the best husband and dad possible. Give gifts and repent. Compliment and build her confidence. I hear this from my counselor as well as someone who was on the brink of divorce themselves. That all seems to be from the heart and DB seems to be tactics. Do we have success stories around people whom did the opposite of some DB rules and pursued, etc? I know someone who met the OM in person and scared them away permanently.

One of the reasons I think W went wayward was the lack of attention, no spontaneity, kids came first. Shouldn't these be my 180s? I have the home court advantage. I see her in person daily, she can see I'm a great dad and I can beat the guy at his own game. I know its all against the DB rules but how do we know which path is better? A coworker I console in got a gift to give W. It feels like the right thing to do.

Lastly, should I confront OM? Anyone else survive this with kids as young as mine (D4, S1). I know being M and with known anxiety, I'll be lucky to get 50/50 custody.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 06:01 PM
So when you got married did your vows say “in good times and bad” or did it say “when things get $hitty then you need to compete with OM”?

You can do things like being a great father without pursuit. Pursuit never works and you should consider getting a new counselor.

Most courts will award 50/50 custody.

DB is away of life and no different tactics then pursuing on buying gifts.

Trust the process.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Core
Literally ever person I've talked to in person says to ... Be the best husband possible. Give gifts
I have never seen that work when there is OM involved. It will be seen as weak and decrease your attraction.

Like I said, the rules have changed.

You have to be a strong, independent man. Facing your fear head on.



Go back to the link I first supplied. There are around 1000 quotes. Read them all. As you do, Ask yourself, do I agree with this? If you say "No", then you really dig deep and question your belief system. I also strongly suggest that you start a personal digital notebook to collect info you want to reference again in the future. Keeping the original posters name with the quote is useful as well. Try to categorize them from the beginning. Big topics like parenting. subtopic like telling the children etc

Pay close attention to the posters names. LH19, AnotherStander, Steve85 are currently posting great advise. Sandi2 has been here forever and she passes out stellar advise. Coach and PuppyDogTails both got their marriages back on track and helped many others do the same. We all should aspire to behaves as these two did. AllenA and RobX saved their marriages. They both did it in completely different ways. Understand the difference in how these four did it. Curtis7 did an excellent job spelling out all his options. It is in quotes9.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I know being M and with known anxiety, I'll be lucky to get 50/50 custody.
What you believe will manifest itself. Challenge and change your limiting beliefs.

Right now, be 100%. Take every opportunity to be a great dad.


What state do you live in?
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 06:38 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Almost through all the material. Whats blocking me is everyone I've talked to in person says to kill her with kindness. Be the best husband and dad possible. Give gifts and repent. Compliment and build her confidence. I hear this from my counselor as well as someone who was on the brink of divorce themselves.


I hate to talk like the big tough guy but you need it right now. That is beta b!+ch behavior. She's cheating and rejecting you and you're thinking your repentance or gifts will change that? No. Your behavior got you here and it took a while. It is not going away overnight but you start making positive changes today.

If you have lost 7 pounds and you were light to begin with I'd advise setting up a health plan that involves sports, gym activity (weights), and eating lots of good foods.

DB should be from the head because of the heart. Is it tactics? Maybe. Obviously you had a relationship failure that brought you to this point so I think you, like all of us, are needing to learn new ways of having relationships. At some point in your life someone taught you how to have a relationship, can you tell me where you learned this?

Is buying a gift and killing her with kindness to make her come back to you tactics? Yes.

Do not confront OM. Even if you were 100 lbs heavier and pure muscle, is it worth going to jail over? Is it worth getting hurt over? Is it worth giving OM the satisfaction? No, no, no.

Be the man you want to be. Don't pursue someone who has betrayed you, who has no respect for you (at least at the moment). Be kind to her in a detached way, not in a pandering, pathetic, sucking up to her to win her back way that she will see right through.

Anxiety is nothing you can't control. I'm anxious about the AJ/Ruiz fight this weekend. So what. You're a good dude and everyone deals with some crap in their lives, it's how we deal with it that matters.

I hope R2C drops in and gives you some links to read on attraction, but it definitely doesn't work the way you think it does. You're going to need some growth there.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 06:45 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I'm loving all the advice. Here's where I'm stuck before I implement going dark. Literally ever person I've talked to in person says to kill her with kindness.


Believe me, EVERY LAST ONE OF US tried this initially! It doesn't work!

Quote
Be the best husband and dad possible.


You've been BD'd, she fired you as H. But yes, do be the best dad possible.

Quote
Give gifts and repent.


Do not give gifts. Do not apologize over and over again, it just looks weak and pathetic and resolves in her mind that you really are to blame for everything. If you've already apologized for your shortcomings, then let that be it. No need to keep repeating yourself.

Quote
I hear this from my counselor as well as someone who was on the brink of divorce themselves.


Your counselor and friends are probably knowledgeable on fixing problems in a struggling marriage, but they are not experts on a broken, post-BD marriage. We are. You've been BD'd, that puts you in a completely different category. Your W is DONE. She does not want you to "fix things", she wants out. All of the above behavior works in a relationship that is on the rocks but still salvageable, but it does not work when it's broken. Steve has a great analogy- if your car is running bad you can do maintenance on it to get it back in tip-top shape. But if you've blown the engine, then all the maintenance in the world isn't going to do squat. Your marriage has a blown engine.

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Do we have success stories around people whom did the opposite of some DB rules and pursued, etc?


Only if it happened before BD. I don't know of a case where pursuit brought a WAS back after BD.

Quote
One of the reasons I think she went wayward was the lack of attention, no spontaneity, kids came first. Shouldn't these be my 180s?


Again, is your car (marriage) in need of routine maintenance? Or is the motor already blown? 180's like those do not work on the latter. Do you read Sandi's posts much? One of the things she talks about a lot is the utter lack of respect a WW has for her H. Once BD happens, the WW hates her H, and may even find him repulsive. Like she can hardly stand to talk to him or even be in the same room. Every attempt at appeasing her actually disgusts her, she looks at him as weak and pathetic. Zero value, zero respect. How do you get respect back from a WW? You leave her alone, you stand up for yourself, you don't take her sh**. You get out and GAL and that shows her you have value to yourself and to others.

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If she is having an EA, I have the home court advantage. I see her in person daily, she can see I'm a great dad and I can beat the guy at his own game.


You can't compete with an EA. With you comes all of the daily problems and challenges of life. An EA can be whatever she imagines it to be- riding into the sunset on a white stallion with a bare-chested he-man. If you think showing her how awesome you are at cleaning house, taking out the trash, doing laundry and caring for the kids can compete with that, well you're wrong. It's a classic LBS mistake though, doubling down on beta behavior when you should be finding your alpha self.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander

You can't compete with an EA. With you comes all of the daily problems and challenges of life. An EA can be whatever she imagines it to be- riding into the sunset on a white stallion with a bare-chested he-man. If you think showing her how awesome you are at cleaning house, taking out the trash, doing laundry and caring for the kids can compete with that, well you're wrong. It's a classic LBS mistake though, doubling down on beta behavior when you should be finding your alpha self.


This is gold. Core, DBing is counter-intuitive....but it is the only thing that has a chance of working.
Posted By: job Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 07:27 PM
I would also like to add that you stop discussing your situation w/people. Choose one or two close friends to talk to and do not discuss the situation w/anyone else. The more you talk to people, the harder it will be for her to return to the marriage, if she so desires to do so later on.

Until these real life people walk a mile in your shoes and face what you are facing, then they need to step back. Trust me, right now gift giving from you is a no no. When a family is involved, we suggest purchasing something generic and have the children give it to the wayward spouse.

Until the affair is over and done with, you are on the back burner and you need to realize that you are number one. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off and start doings things for you and your children. Look at her as a roommate and nothing more and yes, only clean up messes that you or your children make. Don't clean up her messes...after all, she fired you as a husband.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: Is there hope? - 12/04/19 09:05 PM
Hey Core-- just want to say i feel what you're going through, and i know it [censored]. However, having been through it myself, i can also tell you that there is hope, and that there is light for you at the end of the tunnel regardless of how your MR turns out. You are being followed here by alot of the savvy veterans on this board, and you are getting some great advice, which i hope you give your fullest consideration. If you DB vigorously and properly, your worst case scenario is you emerge from this single, but, also, as a much stronger, confident, and, indeed, happier person overall. And maybe, just maybe, if your WW comes to see the new you as the real you (and no faking, here, you GAL and make the 180s/changes for you, for real, or else they do you no good AND she will see right through your subterfuge) AND if she also feels the sting of loss of you/family and ultimately comes around to feeling both a) respect for you and b) real remorse and contrition for what she has done... then maybe you will eventually be able to re-build your MR. But even if your MR is not salvageable, following the DB-ing rules and attending to your own self-improvement will yield huge dividends in whatever endeavors and relationships await you going forward.

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One of the reasons I think she went wayward was the lack of attention, no spontaneity, kids came first. Shouldn't these be my 180s? If she is having an EA, I have the home court advantage. I see her in person daily, she can see I'm a great dad and I can beat the guy at his own game. He was sweet talking I'm sure and mailed her a gift. I know its all against the DB rules but how do we know which path is better?


I was exactly where you are. My W and i were in a sex-starved marriage, and she had suffered through years of neglect from me (and no, i wasn't all to blame for our sitch... just owning my side of the street, here). No spontaneity, no flirting, no dating, we were ALL about the kids (even moreso than some other families because we had two with special needs), we weren't even kissing goodbye in the morning as we left for work, were often sleeping in separate beds, and, in fact, it was a stretch to say we were even friends. The marriage was about as dead as it could be. And then sweet-talking OM happens along, showering her with attention, presents, etc, and she EATS. IT. UP. When you are in that situation, when you hear your W say "I feel like i am dying inside", or "I just wanted some love and warmth and to feel cared for", and you realize the harm your neglect has done and see some other guy making time with your wife by providing the attention you had been denying her, it is almost impossible to stop yourself from jumping in and wanting to text, flirt, pursue, buy gifts, etc etc etc, and it seems logical to our male minds that that is the solution to our previous neglect... BUT IT IS NOT! By the time our wives have reached this point, they are done with us... as one poster said above, accurately so, it is likely even to the point that we disgust them, and any advances or pursuit we make disgust them even more (or at least anger them-- "Why did you never do this before?!?!) It is possible, at least for a while, that your 180's and GALs may even meet with this reaction from your WW-- "Why did you never do these things before? Why only now when we are apart?".. which is one of the reasons you need to make sure you are doing them FOR YOURSELF and that you stay committed to doing them FOR YOURSELF no matter what your W, in her waywardness, might say in response. To the extent she ever comes back, or starts to believe your changes are genuine, then her reaction MIGHT change... but you need to be doing them for YOU in order to have any hope that they eventually have some positive effect with her. But in the meantime-- NO PURSUING. My favorite quote from this site: "She will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away."

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Almost through all the material. Whats blocking me is everyone I've talked to in person says to kill her with kindness. Be the best husband and dad possible. Give gifts and repent. Compliment and build her confidence. I hear this from my counselor as well as someone who was on the brink of divorce themselves.


As others have posted, you are in a different situation. The car with the blown engine is a GREAT analogy. You will be hard-pressed to find counselors who are well-versed in this situation and who will counsel anything BUT pursuit. Even my own counselor, who had a VERY good grasp of affair addiction and selfishness and such WRT wayward wives, STILL counseled me to find opportunities to form some happy memories with my W... to go out socially and do fun things. It is tempting to try to compete with OM--- the thinking goes: "How can we ever get back together if we don't do some fun things together or have happy, flirty, moments... our life is all bills and responsibilities and kids, while OM is none of that... How can i compete with that?" To which the answer is: You CANT. You can never compete with the fantasy of life with OM because it IS a fantasy. She will always paint it in her mind to be superior to what she has or can have with you. Now, in my case (and my case was unique, for several reasons), the fits and starts we made into MC, and the socializing we did to try to reconnect was, on some level, beneficial. She did get to see, close-up, that i was a changed man and for the better, and we did have some fun times and she even started to "remember" some of the older fun times we'd had that she (as all WAW's and WWs do) had forgotten. And this did allow us to reconnect and did at least re-establish the "like" in our lives , although I think in this case that the particulars in my W's background and upbringing and faith and such played a role, because I've seen just as many cases where this sort of thing backfires. Either way, however, it was not until I had finally had enough, told her to get out by the end of the week and completely walked away that she finally and completely broke down, cut the cord with OM, and threw herself 100% into repairing our MR. And I am convinced that had I not done that, that we never would have reached the point where we could truly reconcile. And my MC, who is, i am convinced, the best MC on the planet, agreed. So, while, on some level, i think the socializing and cohabitation might have been helpful (and perhaps even necessary, in my case, for a resolution on the timeline that we saw-- about 16 months), the TRULY necessary elements to complete reconcilliation were 1) My own self-improvement and re-discovery of my alpha persona (both of which she eventually came around to understanding were genuine) and 2) My complete detachment and rope-dropping on my part and my walking away. We were blessed to be guided into just about the best timeline-- i still firmly believe by divine providence-- that we could have experienced, but the reconcilliation could still have happened without all of the dating/friendliness/etc, but absolutely could NOT have happened without the GAL, detaching, and rope-dropping on my part. It's even possible that had i dropped my own bomb right away on discovery of the EA, that that could have headed off the A becoming deeper and shortened the time-frame that way as well-- this is one thing Sandi2 believes and has stated multiple times. Unfortunately, we LBHs are almost never in the right frame of mind to respond effectively in that fashion. Which brings me to:

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Lastly, should I confront OM? Anyone else survive this with kids as young as mine (D4, S1). I know being M and with known anxiety, I'll be lucky to get 50/50 custody.


This is a very controversial issue, with widely varying opinions, and is also, obviously, somewhat fact-specific. In your case, with small children, you obviously don't want to do anything that might get you arrested. Only you know what you can handle, and under what situations you can maintain control-- both of which are your primary concerns here. Also of concern is whether or not you think it might "help" in any regard... either you or the situation. For you, what do you hope to achieve by confronting? A confidence boost? Feeling more alpha? For the situation-- is there a lever over the OM (as in, is he already married with a family of his own? Did he take advantage of your wife in a way that would be legally inappropriate/actionable) that might actually scare him off? In my own case, the situation was somewhat peculiar-- the OM had been a good friend of mine, was friends with my boys, and was, like me, a volunteer coach on the HS football team our boys played on. As such, i was determined to confront him, let him know i knew what was going on, what i thought of him, and, in fact, warn him to stay the hell away from my wife (I should add here that my own boys were 17 and 18 at the time, and custody, etc was not going to be a worry). I felt it was important for my growing self- confidence, and also to demonstrate to my W that i wasn't going to back down and, if it came down to it, for my boys to know i stood up for myself. I will tell you this, however-- at the end of the day it did not really help in any significant regard. It did make me feel "better" about myself, as if i was stronger, but, as it turned out, it did not result in OM leaving my W alone (he continued to contact her, and she continued to entertain contact, for months afterward, although unbeknownst to me), and in addition to the few "positive" feelings and emotions i got out of it, it also brought back a whole whole lot of hurtful and dark emotions and feelings that i had worked hard to, by that point, mostly get over. Finally, my W, rather than being impressed by my "stand" for her at that time, was upset that OM might have been "hurt" by the episode, and that i had confronted him in a somewhat public place and that his son (also age 17) had been nearby (she was mistakenly under the presumption that dirtbag's son was not aware of the affair-- which he was). Sandi2, I believe, would voice her belief that confrontation can create an "us against the world" mentality with WW and OM, but I am not sure how much more damaging that is than the existing dynamic, and, obviously, you look less like a wimp if you stand up to the dude. Idk... opinions vary and it is a tricky dynamic, at best. At any rate, in my sitch, not a very productive course of action, aside from the bit of ego boost i got from facing the guy and looking him in the eye, and making him believe that i was more than ready to fight him... and seeing him back down, at least then and there. So, yeah... it's a really tricky issue, not cut and dried on either side, IMO... largely depends on you and your particular sitch. And i know i rambled alot in posting that, but i thought since i had "been there done that" I'd walk you through my own thought process and experience.

Anyway, i tend to write novels for posts... just the way i typically write, puke everything out there and then go back and clean it up if i have time... but it's heartfelt. Hope my experience, and the experiences of the others here, can help you out.

Good luck! Hang in there! My thoughts and prayers go with you!
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:17 AM
Originally Posted by LH19
So when you got married did your vows say “in good times and bad” or did it say “when things get $hitty then you need to compete with OM”?


Good point!

Originally Posted by Ready2Change


Pay close attention to the posters names. LH19, AnotherStander, Steve85 are currently posting great advise. Sandi2 has been here forever and she passes out stellar advise. Coach and PuppyDogTails both got their marriages back on track and helped many others do the same. We all should aspire to behaves as these two did. AllenA and RobX saved their marriages. They both did it in completely different ways. Understand the difference in how these four did it. Curtis7 did an excellent job spelling out all his options.



Excellent, thank you R2C for continuing to provide support here. I've read about half so far and continuing on.



Originally Posted by ovrrnbw


I hate to talk like the big tough guy but you need it right now. That is beta b!+ch behavior. She's cheating and rejecting you and you're thinking your repentance or gifts will change that? No. Your behavior got you here and it took a while. It is not going away overnight but you start making positive changes today.


This whole post was great. You and the others really got me head to a good place today. Nothing wrong with the direct approach. Helped me get through my job in good shape.

@Anotherstander
I agree with Steve85, this was gold.

Originally Posted by job
I would also like to add that you stop discussing your situation w/people. Choose one or two close friends to talk to and do not discuss the situation w/anyone else. The more you talk to people, the harder it will be for her to return to the marriage, if she so desires to do so later on


That is a good point. Initially she had asked me not to tell anyone. Maybe she had this in her mind as well? Or perhaps she didn't want others to talk her away from her new fantasy.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:41 AM
@R2C

I'm in WV which I believe gives 50/50 but varies depending on childs best interests. To your point, I may not want to think that far and have it manifest.

@Hoosjim

It sounds like you had a really good counselor and you did many things right in your situation. I understand the take on confronting, it probably won't solve anything and may drive them closer together. He's in another state but I do have his phone number. I was planning on talking to him about honor and respect but I have a feeling the guy has none based on his actions. My thought is confronting would ultimately make me feel better. I can see myself being on the fence with this one for awhile. Yours is an engaging story and I'm glad you shared it and happy to see how you and the R improved.

All,
This has been some solid advice. I've saved memos, put in calendar updates/reminders and am dedicating as much time as I can to improving. In Hoosjim's sitchs and others, kicking the WW/WAS out of the house seems to do wonders. I'd like to try it myself but I feel my hands are tied. 1 - she wants a D. This will give her what she wants. 2 - and the more important factor. I'd be kicking D4 and S1's mom and full time stay at home mom/baby sitter out of the house. If I kick her out, I'd either be kicking the kids out as well, or I'd damage the kids and I'd quickly be in for hurt and hard pressed to find a baby sitter. In my part of town, the waiting listing for daycare's are 5 months or longer. 3- the last possible option is kicking myself out and losing all I cherish, and potentially showing abandonment in the court of law. Thoughts on this? Again I appreciate the help. As much as I thought I detached and as I believe R2C mentioned, I went right back to attached and ruminated about this all day at work until you all showed up with support. I had a gift already to give W which I'm flipping over to D4 instead. Alpha. Focus. Self Improve. Thing the best. Detach. Put the kids first. Hold off on gifts. Read the links. Exercise. Eat well.


Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:50 AM
You do not want to be controlling. Kicking her out is controlling. Telling her "You are free to leave" is not controlling.

Hold off on taking immediate action. Come up with a plan. Run it past us for input. Revise. Run it past us. Repeat until you have a great plan. Execute the plan.

Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Core
I took advise and moved W out of bedroom. She said nothing.
This is interesting. No reaction from her at all?
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
You do not want to be controlling. Kicking her out is controlling. Telling her "You are free to leave" is not controlling.

Hold off on taking immediate action. Come up with a plan. Run it past us for input. Revise. Run it past us. Repeat until you have a great plan. Execute the plan.



That's perfect! I said just that 1-2 days after BD and forgot all about it.

Can't believe I'm at this point here with two youngins. So many women tough it out even if they are unhappy when the kids are so young. She was also always so against her family member whom had an affair. Maybe projecting.

As far as a plan, man is it tough. On one end, I've no new solid evidence that the OM is back in the picture though the heart and soul say its still happening. On the other end, even if he is out of the picture, there has been no commitment or chat to work on R. I've been told a "we should do this with the kids stuff after Christmas" which means she plans us both to stay here past xmas? Dont trust anything they say comes to mind.

My semblance of a plan thus far is weak. I can kick her out yet would have to ask her to come over every morning at 6am to watch the kids. Then what do I do...pay her because if she gets a job, she can no longer watch the kids. Not doing that. Neither family will watch the kids part or full time. Back to the drawing board.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
This is interesting. No reaction from her at all?


None at all! Because our place is so small, we are shuffling D4 between rooms so the MBR has D4 and one spouse, and the other room has the other spouse. She was probably happy to be able to stay up and contact OM without keeping kids awake or feeling guilty.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 04:30 AM
Originally Posted by Core
None at all! Because our place is so small, we are shuffling D4 between rooms so the MBR has D4 and one spouse, and the other room has the other spouse. She was probably happy to be able to stay up and contact OM without keeping kids awake or feeling guilty.
Perfect. Start making it yours. Get a manly photo, like a motorcycle, hung up at the headboard. New manly comforter, and sheets. I like black and grey. Pick out something you like. Move the bed to a new location that you like. Vacuum and dust room. Make D4 area "girly".
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 10:47 AM
Just unbelievable...yesterday W asked me if she could take the kids to a friends house for dinner which is not odd in anyway. Well I found this morning a few things, OM definitely emailed her something over our phone plan which had actually ceased a few days back (which isnt to say they were out of contact somehow). The sketchy part, there is text history of W messaging the friend she went to eat dinner with several times during the time frame in which she was supposedly at her place. Either she didn't go there and met someone else or OM is spoofing a text number if thats possible. OM lives many states away and I would hope W would not be already introducing the kids to him if he was somehow here. D4 is so young, I'm not sure if she could tell me what actually happened and I dont want to pry my kid for info.

This dude ripping in to a marriage is just vile. If W somehow ends up with him, how could I ever feel safe for my kids being around someone with no moral compass?
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:12 PM
At this point, I've probably told 11 people part of whats going on. Didn't even realize how many I've supported on. That's not including whoever my W has told. I hope if there is any reconciliation, that doesn't kill the chance. As per the advice in one of the previous posts, I'm turning just to this forum and 1 or 2 close contacts going forward.

I still have no plan on how to confront the W and remind her she can leave. If the kids were older or she had a job it would be so much easier. I don't even know I truly want her to leave. She is still buying my family xmas gifts, cooking for me, doing laundry, etc. So confusing.

In my last post, I should correct that I don't know for sure OM contacted wife but she did receive am email to text very late at night.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:26 PM
Well Core, something is up. Not sure if she was with OM but it sounds pretty clear she was lying about where she was going. I think the bottom line here is that like many WAS's, she already considers you divorced except for some pesky legal document filed somewhere. So she's doing what she wants to do, and doesn't feel obliged to tell you what it is. This is very typical behavior with waywards. You don't really have enough evidence to confront her. If you do confront her she's going to gaslight you until you're questioning your own sanity. So I wouldn't confront. If you really need to know then hire a PI and get it over with. The "not knowing" was driving me crazy in my sitch until I finally said to myself that I would just assume the worst and proceed accordingly. So I just assumed she was having an A, and the interesting thing was that after that, I no longer cared about the texting in the bathroom and the falling asleep with her phone in her hand and the mysterious times she went missing with no explanation. That for me was the beginning of detachment.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 01:44 PM
Core, just catching up on your sitch. I tell the story of something in my sitch, and without getting too deep into it I will try to give cliff-notes.

I initiated BD on 12/23/17 by finding out (snooped on her computer) she was in an EA with a younger guy, 1200 miles away in another state. I confronted (this was her second EA, first one being in 2005). She immediately said she wanted to get a job, get an apartment and get a D. A couple days of moping and feeling sorry for myself (through Christmas) I finally remembered DBing and started DBing.

A couple of weeks later, we were watching TV on a Friday night. She went into the guest bathroom for 2 hours. My instinct was that she was texting with OM, and sending him nude photos. It took all of my willpower not sneak down the hall and look under the door (just typing that is humiliating).

A few weeks later, I found in the trash her online photo cloud, the pictures. Yep, nudes. Clearly taken for OM, sent and then deleted.

I tell that story to make two key points: 1) your instincts are usually right 2) the truth always seems to have a way of coming out. Confronting, not confronting, whatever, will not make this come about or prevent it from coming about. What I can warn you about is this: if you confront, she will do a lot more to cover her tracks. After I initiated BD, my W changed all of her passwords, PINs, and started signing out of apps (I found out the messages for her EA in Facebook messenger app on her PC, even though she was messaging with him on her phone.) Take AS's advice, do not confront until you have the evidence you need. Otherwise she will start jumping through hoops to hide things.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 04:22 PM
^^^What Steve said. And if and when you do confront her, there is no need for lengthy explanations. Short and simple. There is nothing that has more impact than a brief statement such as "I know what you are doing and it is unacceptable." Queue the gaslighting. "What? I'm not doing anything, you're paranoid. What is this "evidence" that you think you have? Maybe you're the one having an affair! I bet you're doing this to try and cover your own guilt!" Don't fall for it. "I don't need to explain, I know, and there's nothing more to say." Then walk out of the room.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/05/19 04:52 PM

Steve and AS are wise. I strongly suggest you weigh their advise heavily.

Read this post. Burn it into your head:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2870386

This part of the process is all about self control. What you feel like doing and what you should do are not in alignment right now. Do not do what you feel like doing. Be like Steve. Fight that urge.


Go read quotes3 and understand how PuppyDogTails would handle this.


There are good and bad ways to handle this. Each of us has different opinions. After reviewing them all, you have a choice to make. You make that choice based on logic. You take the action for that choice and live with the consequences of that choice, good or bad. Waiting is choice. Acting is a choice.

Blend all the behaviors of coach,puppydogtails,robx,allena,gucci,steve85.

Your job is to protect your family from predators. Your job as a man is to lead your W through this most difficult time.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 03:35 PM
My friends, yesterday was just gut wrenching.

I made a committment to myself that I need to be the best man I can be while also showing how good of a husband I can be, without making it appear as pursuing. I know its breaking many DB rules and its conflicting with so much of the advice you've given me in support. I have one shot and it has to be right. Without over sharing personal details, my wife had a hard life before me.
I didnt know everything but I learned way more in the past few months. She needed someone to lift her up and give her a great life. I tore her down with my anxiety, neglect, invalidating feelings and need to often be right. At this time I'm dying on the inside, hurting seeing her invalidate 11 years of history , 8-9 together and 5 in marriage but moreso seeing how much I've hurt her.
I broke another rule and asked her to talk.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 03:45 PM
Actually it’s Alpha as fuch to apologize, forgive and let her go.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 04:38 PM
Core, calm down and take a deep breath. It is rarely ever a good idea to make major decisions out of hurt or anger.

1) Nothing has changed. Your sitch is no different now than it was before you read the journal. So often LBSs spiral after reading something like this, or an R talk, or a counseling session. And they think it is the end of the world. It is not.

2) Lawyers are concerned about what his best for you legally. Counselors are concerned about what is best for you mentally and emotionally. However, you have to weigh that against other things. Here is your criteria: You should file for D once you have come to terms with and ready to be D'd. Not before. If you are not ready to be D'd then do not file for D. It will not be the end of the world if she were to file. I must warn you, WAS. and WSs in particular, are extremely lazy when it comes to filing for D, or doing the legwork necessary to move the D forward. Most of the time, after time when the LBS is ready to file be D'd, the LBS will have to file and/or do the legwork to move it forward. In other words, there again is no immediate need to run and file to be first.

3) Your W's complaints, what she wrote, the lack of emotion. Most of us LBSs have been there!! WASs are notorious for rewriting history. My W tried to say she was never happy in the entire 19 years we were married. That simply was not true! But it was how she felt at the time. They also will make you out to be the worst person ever. Look, no spouse is perfect. Some of us less perfect than others. But that doesn't mean that we are irredeemable monsters. This is affair fog talking! You were no worse of a husband BEFORE OM came along than you are now after. What has changed is her attitude toward you, because she has emotionally moved on to OM. Even her lack of emotion is because now she has OM and is trying to move on emotionally to him. What I mean by all this is that without an OM in the picture, while she may not have been happy, she was willing to put up and work on things. My W was the same way.

Core, one of the things that will always trip you up is not trusting the DB process. Buying flowers. Becoming super husband, starting R talks, snooping in her journal.....NONE of that will help you. GAL like a madman......continuing to be the best PERSON (not just husband) you can be (180s), and working to be detached are your best way forward. It may save your MR.....it may not. But it will set you up to be successful no matter what happens.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 05:31 PM
Core -

I wanted to comment on the NGS as I know well these feelings.

You got punched in the gut reading her journal. Your mind may be spinning. These situations can be incredibly confusing for anyone, let alone a NG.

Part of this process is sorting out your own feelings. The intensity of the situation can be very confusing and, especially if you are a NG, you can get lost in the fog of your W's feelings. You might not even understand your own feelings, because you are so stuck worrying about your W's feelings. Get back in touch with yourself.

It's not all your fault. It's not all her fault. It's going to take time and space to sort out your own feelings. I strongly encourage you to address the NGS. I would keep this process hidden from your W for now.

If you feel the urge to apologize and repent, please post here first for advice. Apologizing may be okay if done a certain way, but a NG tendency would be to apologize profusely, agree 100% with your W's story, and completely invalidate your own feelings and self-worth in the process. An apology is not going to fix your situation as it stands, I guarantee it.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Core
...she stole the MBR back with D4 while I was taking care of S1....
Then you sleep in the same bed as her.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 05:54 PM
@unchien its crazy not knowing whose feelings I've been experiencing the last few years, mine or hers. Have you gotten through NGS? If so, how long till you saw improvement?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change
Originally Posted by Core
...she stole the MBR back with D4 while I was taking care of S1....
Then you sleep in the same bed as her.


This. Get ready and get into the bed. When she blows up you simply say "Sorry, but I like sleeping in here." She'll either eventually stop complaining, or go sleep somewhere else. You don't care which.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 06:15 PM
Core,

1. No peacocking your newfound changes. Be natural.
2. Attorneys always want you to file. That's how they get paid, and hammers only see nails.
3. Don't worry about her journal. A lot of W's (mine included) write down these things, and when you're in this type of sitch they aren't going to write about the picnic in the park with flowers and wine.
4. You're not dying, you're just going through a hard time. It's all mental. It's within your means to change how you feel. Attitudes, thoughts, actions, then emotions. You control how you feel. Hard times make hard men, hard men makes good times.
5. Most people who are WAS's (walk away spouses) are not going to feel in love. Your brain knows this already but your heart hates it. Just breathe.
6. Counselor says you need to "protect yourself" with a divorce eh? Ha, take your time and decide what you want.
7. Look for trial memberships, groupons, etc for gym/GAL. It's out there. I assume you meant $14K over budget and not under.

You need to start resistance training, even if it's calisthenics at home. You need to be eating well. How is this coming along? Are you sleeping a whole night?
Posted By: hoosjim Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 06:21 PM
Core, I'ma chime in here, too. I have been exactly where you are at now and you have got to keep yourself from getting carried away by what you saw and what you are feeling and from the guilt you are experiencing for your wife's so-called agony. My wife was in the exact. Same. Place. "I'm dying inside", she said, "I feel so alone and abandoned", "every day I cry on my way in to work."I don't think we were ever happy together".

Now, were either of us, you or I, perfect husband's? Clearly not. But we were also not the completely monstrous and callous failures my wife made me out to be and your wife is currently making you out to be. The truth of the matter is that my and my wife in our situation, and you and your wife in your current situation, walked the path that got you to this point TOGETHER. Marriage is a partnership that requires teamwork and effort by both partiesand you don't reach this point in a relationship without failures and weaknesses on both sides.

Yes, you need to take care of your side of the street, change yourself as a man for the better, etc, and, yes, it is even acceptable to, in a calm, confident, manner, take responsibility and apologize for specific shortcomings and indicate that you know that you need to do better, but you absolutely cannot let your failures lead you to let your wife off the hook for hers. Let yourself go down that path all you're going to do is look beta, and weak, and drive her further and further away. You need to take care of your side of the street right now, and she needs to take care of hers. And given that she is currently in an affair, she has a lot of stuff to take care of. Don't let her off the hook because you feel like you were less than perfect husband. Fix yourself, improve yourself, and leave her to do the same for herself, if she so chooses. And maybe, someday, if you both address your own shortcomings, you will be blessed with the opportunity to reconcile. But rolling over and playing dead because you are taking on full load of guilt for both of you is not going to get you there.

Trust me, I know, I have been there and come out the other side.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
Get ready and get into the bed



Get a good book, make sure you are ready to go to bed BEFORE her. I strongly suggest that you do not sleep "on your side" Pick the middle. Claim you space. You are a CALM, confident alpha male that sleeps wherever he chooses. She can choose to sleep in bed with you.


Listen and validate. Listen like you have to memorize everything she says. Listen like there will be a test on it tomorrow.



Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Core
@unchien its crazy not knowing whose feelings I've been experiencing the last few years, mine or hers. Have you gotten through NGS? If so, how long till you saw improvement?

It is a continual process, but I feel I have steadily progressed over the last 8 months. Like most self-improvement, there's a lot of advice out there, and I can tell you what worked and didn't work for me, but ultimately you need to own it and figure out what works for you.

You are in an acute situation. Your fight or flight response is at high alert. But you are not going to die. Your fight/flight response is hindering you. The intensity of your W's emotions creates a giant fog that is hard for you to see through.

You may R, you may D. Accept that either reality may happen, and that it is up to you and you alone to make yourself happy in either scenario. And you CAN do it.

I heard a great quote on a podcast a few months ago: "The universe has a mysterious way of creating situations that force you to address the issues holding you back."
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 07:43 PM
Core, great advice above from LH, Steve, unchien, R2C, Jim and ovr. It's like the who's who of DB vets in here! Read, wait until you regain your composure, and then read it all again.

All the garbage in that "journal" was probably written recently, and falls under the category of "rewriting of history." Instead of turning into an apology machine you should have just listened and validated. "Reading your comments, it sounds like you felt isolated and alone, is that the way I made you feel?" "Yes, blah blah blah" "I am sorry you feel that way, it must be very frustrating." Notice you are not apologizing for anything YOU did, and you are not even agreeing with her. You are listening to her feelings, and validating them. Period. Then you go about your day like nothing happened. Why? BECAUSE NOTHING HAPPENED. All that spew, it is a reflection of how she feels at this moment in time. Her feelings will change in a year, or a month, or a week, or 5 minutes. She loved you, and she changed to not loving you. Guess what, she can change right back again and probably will. My XW and I did not reconcile, but her recent actions consistently express her love for me regardless. She does stuff she would not ever have considered in the months after BD (such as inviting me to her mom's for Thanksgiving for the 2nd year in a row).

You were together 9 years. If you were so horrible, then what kind of an idiot would marry you, much less stay by your side for 9 years. No one, that's who. You've got to understand this- this is all more about a journey that she is going on than it is about you. She doesn't know that yet, but she will learn it eventually. Until then she will blame you and throw shade on you. All you can do is get out of the way.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: Is there hope? - 12/06/19 08:01 PM
I would also add to my above comments that, if, somewhere out on the currently unforeseeable horizon, you think you might still want to be married to this woman, you need to find counselors who are "pro marriage", amongst other things. (Goal-oriented is another important attribute). Not all counselor's are. And "Pro marriage" doesn't mean a counselor that is "Everyone MUST stay married because _______________", but, rather, one that is oriented to try to save marriages rather than steer people towards divorce (while of course still recognizing that some marriages are not, in fact, saveable.) MWD devotes some text to this in the DB-ing literature, while also noting that marriage counseling before any and all affairs are ended and, indeed, before both parties (including the WAS) have committed to saving the MR, is premature. IC is of course appropriate at any time, but i would be suspicious of any counselor that, at this point, is pushing you towards divorce.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/07/19 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Core,

7. Look for trial memberships, groupons, etc for gym/GAL. It's out there. I assume you meant $14K over budget and not under.

You need to start resistance training, even if it's calisthenics at home. You need to be eating well. How is this coming along? Are you sleeping a whole night?


Great post, thank you. You're correct, we're 14k im the hole on budget this year. As far as sleeping, thats the killer. Even when stuff wasnt going on, W wouldnt get the kids to sleep early no matter how often I asked. Basically the kids go to bed between 10pm-11pm and Im up 530-6 on work days. Zero free time for me, while she sleeps in. Exercising is going well. Done alot of calisthenics to the point where I really do need more resistance. D4 will help me with added resistance. It's quite cute.

Originally Posted by hoosjim
My wife was in the exact. Same. Place. "I'm dying inside", she said, "I feel so alone and abandoned", "every day I cry on my way in to work."I don't think we were ever happy together".

But rolling over and playing dead because you are taking on full load of guilt for both of you is not going to get you there. Trust me, I know, I have been there and come out the other side.


Wow, I was told almost all those same exact things! So I am thinking those sayings, rewriting the past, it what they do to justify their actions, shift blame and alleviate their own guilt. Wise words in your post, nothing good comes from me takimg on all the guilt. I agree on the promarriage counselor comment. I have a good one picked out who has been referred by our church, should W ever go.


Originally Posted by AnotherStander

you should have just listened and validated. "Reading your comments, it sounds like you felt isolated and alone, is that the way I made you feel?" "Yes, blah blah blah" "I am sorry you feel that way, it must be very frustrating." Notice you are not apologizing for anything YOU did, and you are not even agreeing with her. You are listening to her feelings, and validating them. Period. Then you go about your day like nothing happened. Why? BECAUSE NOTHING HAPPENED. All that spew, it is a reflection of how she feels at this moment in time. Her feelings will change in a year, or a month, or a week, or 5 minutes. She loved you, and she changed to not loving you. Guess what, she can change right back again and probably will. My XW and I did not reconcile, but her recent actions consistently express her love for me regardless. She does stuff she would not ever have considered in the months after BD (such as inviting me to her mom's for Thanksgiving for the 2nd year in a row).


AS, You're right in that I should've done nothing but validate. I swear its like learning to speak a new language. What you said about feelings changing again struck home, it was killing me thinking she could just permanently erase or rewrite our times together and if she were to always blame me, I question what she would tell the kids when they are older.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/07/19 12:56 PM
Back to sleeping arrangements. I'd love to follow R2Cs advice and just hop in to bed before W. The roadblock is D4 and S1 whom need a full bedtime routine, soothing etc. I'd have to neglect them and leave all duties on W to get them to bed.
If I'm getting S1 to sleep, W is taking D4 in to the actual MBR bed. If I hop in and an argument occurs, D4 is right there.

Add to this, W called me extreme for having D4 sleep in D4s room with W instead of MBR. She says I know they'd be uncomfortable but I did it anyway. Then she said I was extreme for asking how they slept the next day. W advised this supposed extremeness is why she wants to D. I had some emotion to my voice as I was sad that D4 didnt want me to get her to sleep that night but thats about it.

I'm being watched and judged like a hawk. So this all being said, I still should take MBR back? Seem I would push us to D quicker as she's now mentioned its a hot point. What are some additional ways I can get respect back?

After thinking through what to do with the current situation of living with S while shes most likely talking to OM, I determined my hands are tied. I can't boot her out, nor can I boot myself out. Coexisting with this seems like the only option and each day of limbo feels shameful. The journal I came across is still in plain sight like it meant for me to read. I think one of the entries is her now questioning her R with OM though only one person knows what she means.

If we can't have R talks per DB rules, I just stay in limbo here?
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/07/19 02:19 PM
I also found a picture of W and OM mixed in our xmas decorations, hidden right under our wedding pictures. Feels so cold, hurtful and I may be overthinking it but it seems purposeful, like maybe she wants me to confront the issue again or see if I get jealous/stand up. As what helped get us to this point...I cant read her mind. Its weird as she hasn't initiated one R chat since BD.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/07/19 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Core
I also found a picture of W and OM mixed in our xmas decorations, hidden right under our wedding pictures. Feels so cold, hurtful and I may be overthinking it but it seems purposeful, like maybe she wants me to confront the issue again or see if I get jealous/stand up. As what helped get us to this point...I cant read her mind. Its weird as she hasn't initiated one R chat since BD.

Core ~

I will let the other vets comment on handling OM situations.

Two comments:

1. Your W is building a rocket ship to exit the Earth's atmosphere (i.e., your MR). She wants to absolutely guarantee she has enough fuel to make it. ANYTHING you say or do will be twisted, distorted, reframed, etc. to generate fuel. There's a lot of other planets and stars out there and all she knows is she wants off Earth. It's all noise. This is why you detach -- ignore her reactions, because almost anything you do or say that does not demonstrate detachment will be extra fuel.

You live together and have kids. There are constantly situations which she can use to create fuel. You can't control it. That is hard.

You can't control whether she launches the rocket.

There are things you can control: You.

- Don't make a decision based on how you think she will react.
- Don't make a decision because you are frustrated or angry or think she isn't being fair.
- DO make decisions that you feel confident about regardless of all the noise and fog surrounding you.

2. Think of all the "accidental" journal and picture findings and barbed comments as bait. Your W is baiting you. The more you react, the more you are taking the bait. You take the bait, you have a negative interaction... she just increased her fuel supply.

Of course there are situations that arise that you do need to address. I would bet more often than not the right approach is not to take the bait. The picture of W and OM is bait. Don't bite.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/07/19 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Back to sleeping arrangements. I'd love to follow R2Cs advice and just hop in to bed before W. The roadblock is D4 and S1 whom need a full bedtime routine, soothing etc. I'd have to neglect them and leave all duties on W to get them to bed.
If I'm getting S1 to sleep, W is taking D4 in to the actual MBR bed. If I hop in and an argument occurs, D4 is right there.

Add to this, W called me extreme for having D4 sleep in D4s room with W instead of MBR. She says I know they'd be uncomfortable but I did it anyway. Then she said I was extreme for asking how they slept the next day. W advised this supposed extremeness is why she wants to D. I had some emotion to my voice as I was sad that D4 didnt want me to get her to sleep that night but thats about it.

I'm being watched and judged like a hawk. So this all being said, I still should take MBR back? Seem I would push us to D quicker as she's now mentioned its a hot point. What are some additional ways I can get respect back?

After thinking through what to do with the current situation of living with S while shes most likely talking to OM, I determined my hands are tied. I can't boot her out, nor can I boot myself out. Coexisting with this seems like the only option and each day of limbo feels shameful. The journal I came across is still in plain sight like it meant for me to read. I think one of the entries is her now questioning her R with OM though only one person knows what she means.

If we can't have R talks per DB rules, I just stay in limbo here?


Dude and dudettes, I'm being killed here. Do you have any more advice on the above or the following? Here's whats murdering me today. My parents went through a similar situation albeit when I was older. I couldnt forgive my parent who strayed. My W knows about this and said she'd never do the same. I've suffered massive loss in my family, basically just had two close relative left by the age 23. My best friend died in our teens. I just started therapy for ptsd and anxiety for these issues when W dropped the bomb.

I am trapped! I cant kick out my kids mom and babysitter, yet I cannot abandon the kids either. All I wanted in life was this family. To feel some peace. So I cant kick her out and I have to stay. I dont believe she is filing yet for D nor is she looking for a job. We have only two family members total who live here. Neither will watch the kids more than a couple hours at a time. As she as stay at home now, I would need her to get a job before there is any chance at getting out of limbo and its one year waiting for daycare/preschool. I feel forced to sit here and become my Ws friend for the kids. All knowing she is going to abandon the marriage at anytime. Whenever her agenda is complete. I've got no power here and none I can take back at least I feel that way. Im struggling mentally knowing I lost my W, my dreams and most of what made me happy. What made me get up in the morning. My son walked for the first time and I was more sad than happy, knowing I'll miss many of these moments. W is acting like we are chums. I don't want to be friends in any outcome. What in the world can I do besides the DB rules, 180s? I cant get much of a life with such young kids D4, S1. I'm sure OM is still in the picture and here my W and I are, sitting over dinner every night only talking to the kids. Maybe saying good night. This is a living h3ll or at least purgatory.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/07/19 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Back to sleeping arrangements. I'd love to follow R2Cs advice and just hop in to bed before W. The roadblock is D4 and S1 whom need a full bedtime routine, soothing etc. I'd have to neglect them and leave all duties on W to get them to bed.
If I'm getting S1 to sleep, W is taking D4 in to the actual MBR bed. If I hop in and an argument occurs, D4 is right there.

Commit to not arguing. It takes two argue.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by Core
Dude and dudettes, I'm being killed here. Do you have any more advice on the above or the following? Here's whats murdering me today. My parents went through a similar situation albeit when I was older. I couldnt forgive my parent who strayed. My W knows about this and said she'd never do the same. I've suffered massive loss in my family, basically just had two close relative left by the age 23. My best friend died in our teens. I just started therapy for ptsd and anxiety for these issues when W dropped the bomb.

Core ~

I defer to vets like R2C on gaining back respect on how to handle the MBR situation.

I understand how hard this is. Many of us here have a history of family difficulties. I also have anxiety. I am estranged from my parents currently. I feel abandoned by some of the closest people in my life too. I lack trust. This stuff is brutally hard. Keep working at it and things will get better.

Originally Posted by Core
I am trapped! ... I feel forced to sit here and become my Ws friend for the kids. All knowing she is going to abandon the marriage at anytime. Whenever her agenda is complete. I've got no power here and none I can take back at least I feel that way. Im struggling mentally knowing I lost my W, my dreams and most of what made me happy. ...This is a living h3ll or at least purgatory.

What do you do after the kids go to sleep? GAL can be as simple as reading a book by yourself or exploring a new hobby at home.

You are in control of your own happiness. Nobody else.

Limbo is really hard. The anxiety kicks in and you just want to do something, anything to *resolve* the situation. It's easy to get stuck in logistical/rational thought and start spinning.

If you feel the anxiety spinning you up, keep posting here. The best thing I have found (for me at least) is to recognize my anxiety is high, and just tell myself to do NOTHING. Eventually the anxiety subsides a bit and I can think more clearly. I don't trust my brain in a heightened state.

I don't know what to tell you about the specifics of your kids and childcare, etc. One thing common to most limbo situations is that the problem will be here tomorrow also. And the next day. And the day after that. So you may as well work on yourself. It's hard to get started. You will get the hang of it. It might not be enjoyable all the time, but the work is worth it. I thought my life was over 6 months ago. I still wish my MR was recoverable. But dammit I am going to be happy no matter what happens.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 12:25 PM
Vets out there, do you have more guidance you can share for my situation in my last past? I read something in another thread from Starsky about fighting for the R for 3-4 months. I did for maybe 3 weeks before DBing. Maybe I should still be fighting, still having the R chats.

U, wow, we can relate is so many ways with this. Really sorry for all you've dealt with. If the S in all of our lives really knew how committed we are to fixing things, I wonder if they'd reconsider. The worst part of limbo here, is if W is talking to OM which seems likely, I'm completely enabling it and she has 0 negative impact for her actions less maybe guilt if she even has any, anymore.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 12:47 PM
C,

The first thing I want to say is I am so sorry you are going through this right now.

Right not you are operating under what is known as the "illusion of action". You think that if you preform the correct act, relationship talk, pursuing, gifts, letters that she is going to realize how much you love her and end her affair and come running back to you and beg for forgiveness. It doesn't work that way. It's also common for a new LBS to dig around in old threads and look for excuses to try other things when what they are doing isn't perceived to be working.

Just browsing through your posts I can see that you are a control freak and this feeling of helplessness is making you spin out of control. You need to try to keep your mind of your sitch as best as you can. Excercisie, visit friends and family. Unfortunately there is no quick way out. Stay strong!
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 07:01 PM
Thank you LH19 for the honesty. Glad to hear it for what it is.

All, I have solid evidence. EA is definitely continuing to happen and our joint account just took a huge hit. I think she bought EA a phone, or one for herself. I only have one option right? Divorce my W and mess up D4, S1s lives permanently? What are suggestions here?? Truly need some good advice. I'm about to confront.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 07:22 PM
So much shame. She's out buying my family xmas gifts as if she wasn't destroying us all emotionally and spiritually. My daughter is going to learn from this woman. I am beyond betrayed right now. I pretty much knew it was happening but held out hope. Now if finances are being hammered I have to betray my own morals to protect myself. How is this supposed to be amicable now?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 07:25 PM
Core,

Slow down buddy. Don’t confront until we talk this through. What are your plans after you confront?

Also, if you D your kids lives will not be necessarily ruined.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 07:51 PM
I didnt have an R talk but i asked why her CC bill was high as our account is low in funds and if she purchased a phone as she was hinting at buying one in the past. She got angry, disrespectful and defensive. I validated where I could. She told me shes no longer buying presents for my family so I can control the finances which I didnt ask for. She assured me that a "phone or anything else I'm suspecting" didnt get purchased. I asked her what she meant by that and she said it's to clarify anything I may be thinking.

Time to go dark in my own house? I have no plan, my hands are tied. I guess I schedule mediation and see if she goes? Or am i supposed to let this EA continue for weeks, months, years until she makes a move?
Posted By: LH19 Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 08:00 PM
What do mean your hands are tied?

No if your truth is to not live in an open marriage and you want to file and move on then no one can argue with that.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Starsky about fighting for the R for 3-4 months..... Maybe I should still be fighting, still having the R chats.
Starsky is a wise DBer. Heed his advise.

Please do not confuse fighting (or standing) for your marriage with engaging in (or more specifically initiating) R chats.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by Core
I have no plan, ...Or am i supposed to let this EA continue for weeks, months, years until she makes a move?
You need to come up with a plan. The plan should revolve around you. How you behave. How you interact with her. What you will and will not tolerate. Setting and enforcing boundaries.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 09:48 PM
Ok plan time...feedback is wanted and appreciated. I told W I questioned why she wanted a phone and advised where I saw her ask about phones so she may now know how I know shes still having and EA (multiple account on social media one following OM) so they may go deeper. With how defensive she was, she is definitely pursuing OM.

I continue to take MBR
Continue to 180
Continue to work out, read, talk to friends, go to church and meet family for coffee
Continue to focus on kids at home
Unknown...xmas is in the air, my family doesnt want her over
Continue counseling for anxiety, OCD
Reassess where i am in two months time after standing for marriage for 4 months
If there is no improvement or so long as there are no financial hits from W before then, I ask her to initiate mediation so I keep my moral boundaries intact
I stop selling personal belongings for family income
Cancel services I dont want to pay for anymore
Move direct deposit to my personal account
Stop initiating any chats with W
If she initiates, I act pleasant, confident but dont dig for detail
No snooping, I already know the answer and how I will feel when finding "answers"
Pray for myself and the kids to have a positive outcome
Work on not rushing to conclusions, W did not buy a phone and is now aware I am suspicious of her, though her reaction proved why I had suspicions
Understand I'm not the victim, nor fully to blame. She is responsible for being unfaithful to me and her god
Continue occasional family nights so the kids can have resemblance of security for as long as possible.
Do not let hate replace the former love in my heart
No more tears for this W, only for what was lost, for the kids, for my dreams
Read rest of DR. I've nowhere to hide it so stuck reading in libraries
Walk tall, exude confidence, validate, come here or to a friend when anxiety takes over

Sound good? What else? There is no kicking of either party out of the house. Just no way about it. I have to face the sin and facade daily. It'll just make me stronger and the kids will have stability, healthier food and a safe home.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Is there hope? - 12/08/19 10:20 PM


Originally Posted by Core
I ask her to initiate mediation so I keep my moral boundaries intact
Do not put any power into her hands. When YOU decided you want mediation, you initiate. Worry about this later.

Originally Posted by Core
I continue to take MBR
Personally, I believe you should sleep in the biggest room in the nicest bed EVERY NIGHT. D4 should be in the other room. S1 should be in your room until a certain age. Do some research into this. Lean on the experts.

Let W choose where she sleeps.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 03:02 AM
I got destroyed, manipulated, fooled. W started a relationship talk tonight asking if she needed to get an attorney due to our earlier chat about money. I got blamed for all the problems in our marriage, I validated many but some were just untrue, I defended those, and was told my memory is incorrect.

You'd think I spent no time on this site or listened to any of you as I broke some rules. She asked why I thought OM was still in the picture and completely convinced me he's out of the picture. I mentioned something I saw on social media and it was downplayed to just a liked picture and that should be ok. I didn't share everything I know but she knows that one source I had. In amidst me feeling like we had a chance to turn things back, and my anxiety, I told her I cared about her, to share with me what I need to change and that Im working on me for me. How many rules broke already? I was convinced I was a monster, shes an innocent flower and not with OM. She asked me how long I want to last in limbo and I said years as we are married and are fixable. In the end before seeing R2Cs feedback above, I told her when she's ready to initiate mediation, I'll go.

I almost no longer care at this point. Have you been here too? The lies, manipulation, being told I'm an abuser (while legit counselor says I'm not), I'm ready to split if I have to. I still want to fix things as I know we can and for the kids but wow, just shameful how I got lost in the moment and how she took in no blame other than "I should've stood up for myself and left you sooner". A relative reminded me I'm not all the things I was told which I needed to hear. So for now, I'm going with the plan and have little to no care for the outcome. Thanks for reading.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 03:23 AM
WASs will almost always gaslight you when confronted. That is why we say avoid R talks like the plague, and only listen and validate if you get caught in one. And make an escape as soon as you can.

Core, you seem impulsive. Impulsiveness will kill you. Likely you engaged with her in the R talk because you still feel you can say just the right thing to convince her. Or if you defend yourself she will see the light. You can't. She won't.

The bigger problem is why you are around her too much. I'll repeat: the LBSs that struggle the most do GAL the worst.

GAL like a madman. You'll look back later and realize that it was the best thing you can do.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by Core
I almost no longer care at this point. Have you been here too? The lies, manipulation, being told I'm an abuser (while legit counselor says I'm not), I'm ready to split if I have to. I still want to fix things as I know we can and for the kids but wow, just shameful how I got lost in the moment and how she took in no blame other than "I should've stood up for myself and left you sooner". A relative reminded me I'm not all the things I was told which I needed to hear. So for now, I'm going with the plan and have little to no care for the outcome. Thanks for reading.

Core ~

How high is your anxiety?

I have generalized anxiety. One thing I've learned is to recognize when my anxiety is high, and make no decisions about what I will say or do until that anxiety has reduced. I've avoided countless gut punch R talks in the process.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 01:06 PM
Core, you're trying to fool yourself suggesting you no longer care. Come on. Steve85 made a great point about your impulsiveness so please listen and try to learn not to react to your emotions. Let them sit.

You really do need to get out of the house when she's around.

Learn from these mistakes and move forward.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
WASs will almost always gaslight you when confronted. That is why we say avoid R talks like the plague, and only listen and validate if you get caught in one. And make an escape as soon as you can.

Core, you seem impulsive. Impulsiveness will kill you. Likely you engaged with her in the R talk because you still feel you can say just the right thing to convince her. Or if you defend yourself she will see the light. You can't. She won't.

The bigger problem is why you are around her too much. I'll repeat: the LBSs that struggle the most do GAL the worst.

GAL like a madman. You'll look back later and realize that it was the best thing you can do.


That was intense gaslighting last night. She told me I can send her some promarriage links though it won't change anything so I did. Haven't seen an outcome or reaction yet. I am definitely impulsive, I used to think women found it attractive and built on it. Now I know its mostly anxiety. U, to answer your question, my anxiety is through the roof.

I agree, I'm around her too much, that's where I'm stuck/trapped. She rarely goes out, so if I want daily time with the kids and dont want to leave all household burdens on her, I end up being around her. In her eyes though if I'm not around, there isn't much to miss anyway.

Anxiety already kicking in to see how she reacts to the sites I asked her to check out. Which hopefully is my last DB mistake.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 01:56 PM
Core, is sending her promarriage links removing all pressure and pursuit?
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 02:53 PM
Steve85, I hear you. The thing is nothing else is having any affect 2-3 months in. It did go as well as expected, making her mad. Which I get.

Still going down the path of letting her go, and thinking those links were my last resort. She is free to start mediation. I haven't news on that end. I helped our toddler, baby in their morning routine, watched W play with them, all having a good time. Hows a man supposed to let this all go without fighting to the bone to protect it.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 03:24 PM
Core, good list so far.

How's the gym and diet coming. I hope you are taking care of your body.

Sorry about the OM. I've been there done that. Don't reveal what you know, don't reveal how you know, just that you do know. That's the best way to handle a confrontation. And confrontations are not advised usually because they end up making the LBS look weak.

In one sentence you said you would stay in limbo for years, and in the two or three sentences later and you don't care anymore. It sounds like you're very confused and hurt. That is OK.

Learn how to resist your feelings, and let your brain direct you instead. If she R talks, you validate. Don't contribute. I bet she was trying to buy some time/more spending funds by initiating this R talk.

STOP PURSUING.

You need to get out a GAL. She wants a divorce, that means she'll have the kids half the time and you'll be free to do as you please while she watches them. Make the best of that time. Or take the kids along for some GAL.

Quote
Anxiety already kicking in to see how she reacts to the sites I asked her to check out.
I'm going to spare you the anxiety. She isn't going to do a thing about those.

If you want her to ask you about saving the marriage go to the gym 5 days a week, eat well, GAL, dress well and groom well, stop pursuing her, stop inputting your feelings into convos, learn how to listen and validate. Basically do everything that women are attracted to and do your best to heal from this and move on. Read R2C's links on attraction.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Steve85, I hear you. The thing is nothing else is having any affect 2-3 months in. It did go as well as expected, making her mad. Which I get.

Still going down the path of letting her go, and thinking those links were my last resort. She is free to start mediation. I haven't news on that end. I helped our toddler, baby in their morning routine, watched W play with them, all having a good time. Hows a man supposed to let this all go without fighting to the bone to protect it.


Your WAS is a cat. You cannot make a cat come to you. That is their nature. All you can do is pretend you don't care and eventually the cat will wonder why you aren't pursuing them and come to you. Give her time and space. Let her go to get her back. Sending her pro-marriage links is the opposite of that and has approaching a 0.00000000001% chance of having a positive effect.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 04:11 PM
C,

Incase you’re wondering why your feeling anxiety it is because it is hard wired in your body from thousands of years of evolution. Thousands of years ago when you were rejected from the tribe your life was in danger because you were almost sure to die if you were cast out on your own. Right now your brain doesn’t know the difference.

Trust me though you will not die from this not matter what happens.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 04:29 PM
Core, stop stop stop stop stop! You are breaking every DB rule there is and just absolutely destroying your chances of recon. You need to go completely dark on your W so you can reevaluate what you're doing. Go back to basics. Read the book. Read Sandi's rules EVERY SINGLE DAY and make those a template on how you behave. Go back to your first page and read ever single link Cadet posted. Go back and read every response you've received. Learn to SHUT UP and/ or walk away when you want to speak out. Read other threads on here, read the responses. Right now you need to focus on absorbing and learning.

You really need to understand something- at this moment in time there is NOTHING you can do to bring your W back. NOTHING. But there is PLENTY you can do to drive her farther away, including just about anything you do to try to bring her back. And that's what you've been doing. So stop!
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 04:35 PM
Core, what AS is describing to you is what we like to call "the illusion of action". We think in the heat of our sitches that doing something....anything, is better than nothing.

Cadet likes to remind LBSs that do nothing IS doing something. So don't fall for the illusion of action, and instead realize that consciously doing nothing is doing something.....the right something.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 04:46 PM
Core -

You are getting some incredible advice from the vets.

If your anxiety is through the roof, that is a signal to STOP and do nothing until your anxiety abates. Anxiety will make your monkey brain bounce around out of control.

As LH19 said, anxiety has never killed anyone.

These situations can feel like worst-case scenarios if you have anxiety issues. Anxiety can not only block you from a chance of fixing your MR, it can block you from enjoying a healthy happy life. Focus on the latter part. Does it feel good to be super anxious? I lost 20 pounds from my anxiety when things fell apart. It did not feel good.

What helped me most is understanding that my brain was telling me the only way to reduce my anxiety was to fix my MR. I felt powerless, my happiness completely dependent on another person. Don’t listen to your monkey brain. You are a worthwhile person and you deserve happiness.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 08:35 PM
Steve85, so you're saying theres a chance! J/K. I thought 2-3 months may be enough time but man, this is not looking in my favor at all. Granted I made mistakes to delay it. What gets me, Sandi2's H did none of the right DB actions from what I understand, she made it work. I'm done breaking these again for the 2nd or 3rd time. The illusion of action..that one stuck.

Ovrrbrnw, thanks for checking in. Exercise and diet are incredible, actually have visible abs for the first time in about 7 years. Keeping strong on that end. Thats so much easier than the mental part! You're right on being on the fence, I'm changing my mind almost daily here.

LH19, thats a great way of putting it. Already being high anxiety, I'm through the roof!

AS, U, I wonder if I'm subconsciously self sabotaging here and or I dont 100% trust the method. All I know is 2 weeks of breaking all thr rules and 4-6 weeks of following both neither have produced any result. Though I still don't know all the repercussions yet from yesterday chats or the links I shared.

I want happiness, I dont want to become a massively different person to win this woman back and have the pressure of maintaining that new self my whole life. This woman loved me for me, though she said I was all facades yesterdays. She's not 100 percent wrong as I did fall back in to nice guy so I can see how she feels she purchased a lemon. She just forgets repairs can be made or perhaps maintenance was lacking too long. My friends, if my chat yesterday didnt push her out of limbo towards either end, I'm not sure how long I'll stay in limbo. She asked me how long I'd stay and I poorly said many years. She told me it wont be years. I've no clue what her plan is but she is using me, disrespecting me and holding my life and heart in limbo. Per DB rules, I just let this keep going while working on myself?
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/09/19 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by Core

AS, U, I wonder if I'm subconsciously self sabotaging here and or I dont 100% trust the method. All I know is 2 weeks of breaking all thr rules and 4-6 weeks of following both neither have produced any result.

4-6 weeks is an eye blink.

MWD talks in DR about trying little experiments with your spouse and gauging the results, over a period of a few weeks. This is what you are doing. One big difference between her book and this board is most of us are in much more dire circumstances. So we tend to advise detaching, and not looking so much at our WAS for feedback, because the relationship is already broken in many ways.

Originally Posted by Core
I want happiness, I dont want to become a massively different person to win this woman back and have the pressure of maintaining that new self my whole life.

This is great insight into DB!

Now, how are you going to find happiness? It sounds like you recognize the perils of using your MR status or your W's approval as a measuring stick of your happiness. You don't want that.

DB is all about becoming happy and healthy and whole. Tangentially, it just may save your MR. Or not.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/10/19 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by unchien

Now, how are you going to find happiness? It sounds like you recognize the perils of using your MR status or your W's approval as a measuring stick of your happiness. You don't want that.

DB is all about becoming happy and healthy and whole. Tangentially, it just may save your MR. Or not.


Thank you U for the support! Didn't even realize it when I wrote it.

Venting session only here. This [bleep]. My parents almost went through the same thing when I was younger and they flipped it around so fast. One was told "the reason I married you was because I never thought you'd do this". The wandering one came back the next day and committed.

Here I am trying almost everything, though in short spurts. W reached out to me last night while sleeping. Maybe to help with our crying son or maybe to have the dreaded mediation chat. I think you're all right here with the action needed to recon. Stick to DB rules. My last chat with W probably just sped up the D, just solidified her opinion. On the plus side, I felt what I said was right in my heart, even if it pushes us to D. In her wayward and wandering state, there is no reasoning or logic. I accept that she is filled with negative feelings and while the wrong thing to do DB wise, I'm glad for the last time here that I told her I cared and that I'm promarriage despite the disgusting things she's said and done. Now with that out there, I harbor no more guilt. I listen to you all here, I live for me and my kids. I was no saint but I'm not what she says. She really only drew reasons for D from about 12-15 chats/issues/fights in the past. After 9 years being together thats no reason for D. They don't add up. Those things should've been forgiven versus turned in to resentment.

I'm telling myself I've got NGS pretty badly here. You know what though, I thought thats how a dad operates. Self sacrifice, putting his family first. Feeling his wifes feelings. Letting go of his edge and being a family man. I'm still going to tackle some sides of NGS but really they arent bad. I've had multiple women in the past few months tell me I seemed confident, and am attractive and thats not from me pulling compliments from them. Maybe I'm beating myself up too much and really my wife was too jaded, hurt, resentful to see what others see. Onward to my plan and continued self improvement.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/10/19 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Core


I'm telling myself I've got NGS pretty badly here. You know what though, I thought thats how a dad operates. Self sacrifice, putting his family first. Feeling his wifes feelings. Letting go of his edge and being a family man. I'm still going to tackle some sides of NGS but really they arent bad. I've had multiple women in the past few months tell me I seemed confident, and am attractive and thats not from me pulling compliments from them. Maybe I'm beating myself up too much and really my wife was too jaded, hurt, resentful to see what others see. Onward to my plan and continued self improvement.


Core, this tells me that you have no idea what NGS is.

And saying "people tell me all the time...." is a HUGE sign of NGS. NGS looks to be nice, and do the right thing, to get other people to like you. It is fake being nice. Read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. It does the best job of explaining what NGS, and how to stop it.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/10/19 05:49 PM
Mind blown Steve. I just finished that book and still didn't recognize that was NGS.

Venting session again - statistically I shouldn't be divorcing. Our ages, kids ages, religion, racial make up, years living together before marriage, years waiting to have kids. All these things combined give us a very low D rate but here we are. I know the stats mean nothing but I won the opposite of a lottery here.

Advice - What do I do with my wedding ring? If I take it off, others would notice and ask, yet if I were it, does it show pursuing? How long do most of you stay in limbo? I have a feeling we will agree on something such as waiting until D4 starts preschool or until W gets a job and kids are in daycare.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/10/19 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Core
Mind blown Steve. I just finished that book and still didn't recognize that was NGS.

Venting session again - statistically I shouldn't be divorcing. Our ages, kids ages, religion, racial make up, years living together before marriage, years waiting to have kids. All these things combined give us a very low D rate but here we are. I know the stats mean nothing but I won the opposite of a lottery here.

Advice - What do I do with my wedding ring? If I take it off, others would notice and ask, yet if I were it, does it show pursuing? How long do most of you stay in limbo? I have a feeling we will agree on something such as waiting until D4 starts preschool or until W gets a job and kids are in daycare.

Core ~

I get a vibe from your posts that your brain is ping-ponging around at warp speed. Maybe it's because I identify with the combo of anxiety and NGS. I tried really hard early in my sitch to find solutions, to solve all my problems all at once, etc. Try to slow things down. In these early stages when things can feel completely overwhelming, often the best thing is to DO NOTHING. I've heard of the technique of picturing a big red STOP sign in your head when you feel like doing something. It can be really hard to fight that tendency to act. The more you do it, the easier it gets.

Several folks have already pointed out to you the illusion of action. Slow it down.

Do you need to decide today what to do with the ring? Do you need to decide today how long to stay in limbo? Or should you instead focus on GAL, PMA, 180s, learning how to validate, detachment, and working on NGS. It's entirely up to you.
Posted By: kas99 Re: Is there hope? - 12/10/19 07:36 PM
I'm 8 months ahead of you with a cheating husband so here is my advice in no particular order. This isn't about DB'ing it's about protecting yourself. I'll leave DB'ing to the veterans.

1) The advantage to filing first is that it puts the other person on defense, you get to go first in court and you control the process. If you want to postpone you can. You have time to plan, to shop around for an attorney, to pay the retainer, and fill out the paperwork. Go to court if you can and watch litigators in action. Find an attorney you like and schedule a free consult. The attorney works for you so if they push you to file, settle for some every other weekend custody walk away. I did all of these things but file 3 weeks after WAH left. When I was ready to file all I had to do was text her. She emailed me the complaint the next day to sign/date and it was done.

2) That said you are not ready to do anything until you have a plan. You can count on that she is already planning and that she is 10 steps ahead of you. You need to catch up. Cut back all spending, cut, cut, cut take back control of the finances (if you can). Live as if you are divorced NOW. Hope for the best prepare for the worst.

3) Your number one goal is custody. Focus on that first. Keep a journal and document all the time you take care of the kids vs when she's gone. Be super dad and while you probably won't need this it is better to be safe than sorry. Do not let her see you doing this.

4) Your kids are little and while it will still be hard they will adjust quicker than older kids. I've got teenagers and I'm about to have to put my 17 year old on anti depressants. I know now that WAS's don't care about anyone but themselves. You can't nice them back, guilt them back and they don't really care who they hurt as long as THEY are happy. They will (sometimes) use the part where you want to "nice" them back to their advantage. Don't fall for this. No one ever came back because they got a great divorce settlement. They come back when they are broke and their new life stinks.

5) Do NOT move out of the house. Ever. If she wants out she can leave.

6) Gather all financial documents and put them in a safe place. Might be harder to get them later. I did this in week 2. He has yet to ask for them so I have successfully caught him by surprise. I have everything. Birth certificates, car titles, tax returns, credit card statements, everything. If there is anything you want out of the house take care of that now. My own ex best friend moved out while her husband was at work.

Look you sound like a great guy and I pray you won't need any of this advice but do it anyway. You'll regret doing too little but you won't regret doing too much. I stayed in limbo for 5 months because that was when the lease was up and he forced me to move. At that point I knew I'd probably have to file soon. I filed in month 7.

Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 01:12 AM
U, you're right. At first I used every minute I possibility could but now I see its unrealistic l, exhausting and took mental energy from the kids. One day at a time. S is teething so I suppose the best thing I can do is sleep!

Kas, this is really good information, thank you. I'm in charge of most finances which is helpful. I've got a budget for now, three years back and the future assuming I get the house. Alimony and child support calculated and factored in. Im so sorry to hear you've a teen going on anti depressants. All ages seem to get hit hard. Youre right in that my S1 will probably not be as affected. D4 I feel so badly for. Whenever we draw, she always wants a whole family. Love Finger Family and similar songs, always wants the whole family in a toy set. We raised her on family being first.

Limbo aka purgatory is something else. Especially knowing OM is still in contact. It would be a little more bearable for me to live in this limbo for the kids if there was no OM.
Posted By: Core Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 02:53 PM
D4 told me a family member stopped by to get a paper from W today. She's so sweet and innocent. I've no idea what the paper was but my gut tells me we are proceeding forward. Here's D4 excitedly telling me she saw family and held the paper, with no clue the family is on the path to dissolve. Last night we colored and she made sure to ask me to draw all the family members. The bulk of my sadness in this has moved to the kids. S1 didnt even get one xmas with his family unit intact. We will be in presence only. I feel like the family is getting the death sentence for jaywalking.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Core

Advice - What do I do with my wedding ring? If I take it off, others would notice and ask, yet if I were it, does it show pursuing? How long do most of you stay in limbo? I have a feeling we will agree on something such as waiting until D4 starts preschool or until W gets a job and kids are in daycare.


And you would remove your ring now why? I think you're reading what we're saying, you're acknowledging it, but you're not understanding it. Removing your ring to "wake her up" falls under that "illusion of action" that Steve mentioned. If you are completely honest with yourself the only reason you would remove it right now is you want to get some kind of reaction out of her, you're hoping it'll snap her out of it but it won't. You're also worried it will trigger a negative reaction from her which is why you came here to ask about it. Leave it on. You've got to focus your attention elsewhere, all this attention on W is just driving her farther away.
Posted By: Jac12 Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 03:49 PM
Core - FWIW, I agree with AS above.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 04:18 PM
In regards to the ring,

I decided to take mine off because it was a source of sadness, a reminder that it was over. I pursued a lot initially and I think wearing the ring was almost pursuit for me. I took mine off, put it away, and did my to forget about that aspect.

Did Mrs. Core take hers off?
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 04:43 PM
You are married. You should wear your ring until the time you are no longer married.

Most LBSs ask this hoping either removing it will get the notice of their WAS. Or to covertly start playing the field. Both are terrible reasons. Do not do anything to manipulate your WAS. And the last thing you need to do is complicate your sitch with another person.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 04:51 PM
By the way, having principles and adhering to them through this time in your life is of the utmost importance. Never give in on principles. No matter the reason. To make a statement. To get her attention. To make yourself "feel" better. Etc.

If your principle was to wear your wedding ring before BD, it should remain your principle after BD. Once you start giving up your principles based on another person's behavior, you begin to lose yourself. Be true to you.
Posted By: unchien Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 05:06 PM
Core ~

Time for a new thread... Take a look at the sticky links for how to do this.

Regarding the paper, recognize that you are mind-reading and perseverating (one of my favorite anxiety words) on it. Try to resist projecting what is written on it, what it means, etc. etc. Recognize you are feeding your brain's desire to keep that cyclone of thoughts spinning in your head. Let go.
Posted By: job Re: Is there hope? - 12/11/19 06:12 PM
New Thread:

Battling Forward Part2
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