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Posted By: Pack_19 Cross countries separation EU - 12/02/19 05:12 PM
Hi all,

My name is Paco, originally Spanish but I had been living in Germany for 2.5 years with my wife and two sons when she asked me for a D. I have been focused on my career and neglected my marriage but I have always been a great father in and out of the house and had no doubts my W was the woman I want for the rest of my life. At the beginning I was a mess, I could not concentrate at work, I got emotional and lost temper, there were fights at home where my W said horrible things to me and I told her she was a coward and giving up on our family, there was crying… I did many bad things that I guess reinforced her decision to leave. She speaks very little German and after a brief holiday separated in Spain she said she wanted to go back to Seville as in her eyes our relationship was dead and it would be easier for her to start over.

I did my best to keep calm and keep my family in Munich where I thought the future of my children was stronger but after fights and threatening and other terrible things I agreed to sign a separation agreement so that she could go to Spain and I would visit every 15 days, she also said that would be the single possibility to save our relationship although she believed that to be impossible. I work in the best company in the world (popular online American store famous for fast shipping) so I have managed to find the way to move back to Spain (Madrid or remotely from Seville) because as you can imagine I am 200% up for saving my marriage and family.

It’s been only a month after separation, I have read DB almost twice now, I started GAL about 2 weeks ago (opera, sports, lost weight, good eating, out with friends, museums, tones of books, good music and plans with my children when I am in Spain every two weeks) but my big question is how is my W ever going to notice change if we are in different countries and all she will speak to me about is expenses from our children and via email. As many of you might have experienced, I do not recognize my W, my friends and family are discouraging when it comes to my attitude as they see me hurt and being run over by my W and all I can do is work to be my best, get a happy life and hope she will decide to give us a chance at some point in the future.

After our separation, I know she still seeks divorce and the last time we spoke on the phone she told me I should be as far as possible from her, we could never be happy together, she blamed me for all that is happening and the effect it is having in our children and she shouted that she does not want to speak to me before hanging up. It is taking all my strength and faith to stay positive, visualize the man I want to be before every interaction with her, being that man and loving her despite all the blows (I believe I have made many selfish mistakes before and is time to look down and show true love).

I found this forum and thought as I loved DB maybe people here could help me with cross country separation and my approach to reaching to her, even if that means not reaching at all. As one of my try new things I was thinking about sending her the DB book as a Christmas gift saying something along the lines of only read it if you freely feel like it. I do not want to control her by doing this, I feel she needs to know the concepts in DB and she is only surrounding herself with people that support separation (oh! this person or that one got separated and took the kids to a psychologist, you will be fine or you deserve to be happy and you are so young) and I think this is really hurting our potential future, if there is any. She for example has created this support circle with her cousin who recently cancelled her wedding to a cheating boyfriend because she realized she was not truly in love and I cannot believe situations are comparable at any level. Anyway, my hymn now is optimism, happiness, consistency, change and unconditional love to her and my children.

Thanks to all and apologies for the long post.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Posted By: Cadet Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/02/19 05:17 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/02/19 05:20 PM
Paco, welcome and sorry you are here. Please read all of cadet's links. Also:

Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/02/19 05:21 PM
Quote
As one of my try new things I was thinking about sending her the DB book as a Christmas gift saying something along the lines of only read it if you freely feel like it.

NO NO NO NO NO

DONT DO THIS
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/03/19 08:45 AM
Hi all,

Thanks a lot for all the quick replies! I will be posting frequently and with shorter messages. I have now finished DR and I am waiting for DB while I read the 5 Love Languages. I also want to schedule telephone counseling here but with the holidays coming up and having to save to move back to Spain I was thinking about reading DB first and then asking for this.

I have a psychotherapist in Germany but he is basically only concerned about my wellbeing, which is good but not exactly what I need now.

No presents or pressure/ pursuing, understood! I need the support here because as an example last week our older S had birthday and I sent a message thanking her for arranging a birthday party and told her she is a great mom, which I genuinely think. Of course I got no answer so I have been thinking about how my 180 would look like:

- No comments or hints about OR
- Being happy and the first one to end communication but always remain loving and open to R
- Listening to her on every interaction like I have never done in my life
- Being happy without her

I am starting my 180 yesterday but I have a big question about going dark. My problem has been I immersed myself on career and providing for a better school and house and totally neglected my marriage, it almost feels like I need to change into loving, through actions, but my W is still on fire and would not even stand me over the phone. Do you have any recommendations on this? Thanks a lot, I will read through all material today! Cant wait!

Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Posted By: Cadet Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/03/19 01:40 PM
Speak with Actions not Talk.
Posted By: job Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/03/19 02:10 PM
Do not give her any books that you are reading and DO NOT SHARE this site w/her. The books on DB, DR and this site are for you and you alone. Knowledge is power and right now, you need to take care of you.

I wouldn't contact your wife unless you have an emergency. She needs time and space to figure herself out. Continue to work on you and if she does something nice or unexpected for you, thank her.

This is your time to work on yourself. Change the things that you think you need to change for the better for you. You do not make the changes to try to win her back....whatever changes you make, they must become a permanent change in your life. Always remember, actions speak louder than words.

Keep the focus on you for now.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/03/19 08:03 PM
Hi again!

Job, Cadet, Steve85 thank you all for the help!

I am making my changes for me and also for my children so they have a better role model on me but of course I do not expect anything on exchange. I am just concerned I am sending the message I do not care about OR but as you very well point out is actions that must make clear I care.

I had a bit of a revelation today, I picked a second copy of DR to take it to Spain and it is used. It has all this emotional notes from the previous owner (she even highlighted the suicide threat comment on the LRT section) and I told myself I am going to be happy and a new man, no matter what happens to my marriage, so I took a bath singing!

I have one last question before tomorrow, I fly on the 6th to Spain for a month and my W knows I will be there but last time I asked to see my children and it was not my turn she acted as if she was forgiving my life and I should be grateful above all. Any ideas how to attempt a family plan without being pursuing her? would that even be a good idea? I dont think so since I have to ask you guys and it is only been 5 weeks since we separated.

Thanks as always for all the great support, you guys are really the opposite to what one expects from an online forum (I mean in a great way!)


Me 29 W:29
M: 5yrs T:10yrs
S:6yrs S:1 yr
BD: "I want a D" 08/09/19
Sep: 10/27/19
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/04/19 01:32 PM
Hi all!

I have been reading today the story from Joe2017 and I have to say I am really impressed how it takes one to tango can work marvels.

Reading about WAW and WW has made me want to share more information and help from more experienced DBs.
As I said, I am aware I have neglected my M and my W has shared with me how it was hurting only then I closed myself and became defensive. This has gone on for long time but I believe I have done nothing to see her leave to a different country and be forced to be with my S6 and S1 every 15 days (no A, no abuse, no addictions beyond work excess).
We were buying a 3 bedroom amazing flat in Germany that now she claims I manipulated her into, I was so proud of our achievement and now it feels like the life I was offering is all worthless.

These are some things I heard from W when D bomb was dropped and along those 2 months I was feeling guilty and trying to spend lots of time talking to her about OR (I know, more mistakes on my side!):

"you ruined my life and family dream"
"this is all your fault, you wont touch me ever again"
"I am sick of fighting for something never existed"
"I want to get an agreement that makes filling for D quick and easy"

.... and worse, but also some things that gave me (maybe unfounded) hope

"don't talk about OM/OW, you are the issue and you need to change"
"I do not know how my future looks"
"I want to be alone, is all about my happiness"
"I moved to the UK and Germany because of you"
"I do not see R, you need to change, I need to like you and fall in love again, this is unlikely"
"Our M was so bad I could have had an A and it would have been justified, but I did not"

... and more evidence that my W is a WAW. She offered me shared custody in the south of Spain, where we are both originally from, but she knows I cannot work on the great company I do from there. She also used the fact that I travel at work to argue I could not support shared custody. When I was feeling like a rug, guilty and worthless as a man I thought let her go to the south of Spain and figure herself out, I will find a way to move to Madrid, work from there, GAL, be my best and maybe one day we can R there. Now I am a lake of doubts, I am not sure if I am ruining my life for a person that will never look back.

Maybe I can get some help from Sandi2 or similar to understand what she might be going through and why she still seems to be on fire and hate me deeply.

In my effort to GAL and detach, I am:

- go to opera, trips and museums on my own
- fresh work start in Madrid happening early 2020 hopefully
- weight lifting and running
- eating really healthy
- planning activities with my children
- learning to play piano
- go out with friends
- read DB/DR and other great books
- new cologne, taking care of clothes and beard

I will be my best for myself and my children. Some days I am a mess, cry at home, I talk to Alexa or kiss the pillow goodnight, but I have determined myself to lean on the great people in this forum! Thank you all for your help!
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/04/19 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19
Reading about WAW and WW has made me want to share more information and help from more experienced DBs.
As I said, I am aware I have neglected my M and my W has shared with me how it was hurting only then I closed myself and became defensive. This has gone on for long time but I believe I have done nothing to see her leave to a different country and be forced to be with my S6 and S1 every 15 days (no A, no abuse, no addictions beyond work excess).
We were buying a 3 bedroom amazing flat in Germany that now she claims I manipulated her into, I was so proud of our achievement and now it feels like the life I was offering is all worthless.


Men and women prioritize value and success differently. Men find worth and value in things such as a nice car, prestigious job, luxurious home, beautiful wife. Women find value in personal relationships. That's not to say women don't like nice cars and homes, but they prioritize relationships above that whereas men don't. We think that if we bring home a big paycheck, enable the family to live in a nice neighborhood and fancy home that it makes up for the fact that we're gone working a lot and neglect our relationships with our wives and children. Women will put up with this a long time, but at some point they reach the breaking point and plan their escape. If things continue to deteriorate then they eventually drop the bomb, and when they do they are DONE.

Quote
These are some things I heard from W when D bomb was dropped and along those 2 months I was feeling guilty and trying to spend lots of time talking to her about OR (I know, more mistakes on my side!):


This is what we refer to as "rewriting of history" and WAS's do it to justify breaking up the marriage. They are deflecting all of the blame to the LBS. Typically the LBS will become a groveling mess, admitting that yes, they did all that and more, and they are sooooo sorry, and won't you just forgive me and everything will be better I promise etc. etc. Don't do this because she doesn't believe you. This is why we say you have to show through ACTIONS, because she's heard the words so many times that she doesn't believe them anymore.

And at first she will resent your actions. She'll state it's "too little too late" and "why couldn't you change while there was still a chance?" So you change for you, and for your future R with her or someone else.

Quote
... and more evidence that my W is a WAW. She offered me shared custody in the south of Spain, where we are both originally from, but she knows I cannot work on the great company I do from there. She also used the fact that I travel at work to argue I could not support shared custody. When I was feeling like a rug, guilty and worthless as a man I thought let her go to the south of Spain and figure herself out, I will find a way to move to Madrid, work from there, GAL, be my best and maybe one day we can R there. Now I am a lake of doubts, I am not sure if I am ruining my life for a person that will never look back.


I would suggest that you not make any big life changes with the hopes of appeasing her, because it won't work. She has no respect for you right now and appeasing her will only make that worse.

Quote
In my effort to GAL and detach, I am:

- go to opera, trips and museums on my own
- fresh work start in Madrid happening early 2020 hopefully
- weight lifting and running
- eating really healthy
- planning activities with my children
- learning to play piano
- go out with friends
- read DB/DR and other great books
- new cologne, taking care of clothes and beard


Awesome, that's a great list! Try to find some GAL activities that involve interactions with other people as well. It helps to make some new friends.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/04/19 10:23 PM
Hi Paco

I am sorry you are here. I hope you are able to find comfort in the words of the many people here with you. You will find good, kind hearted people here who are rooting for you.

I am two years post breakdown and I can tell you it is a long and painful road. But it will get easier. Follow the lessons you learn here, GAL, 180 and most importantly stay strong.

Your list is good, but a couple of things that helped me:

1. Meditate - this helps with the sleepless nights, and also overtime, you'll learn how to be an observer of your feelings. Everything you're feeling is valid, but it is important not to let them take over. Learning to observe them helps put things in perspective.
2. Journal - offline or online, either will help. This will help structure the thoughts that go round and round in your head. Once you have it on paper (or on screen) read it as if it were someone else's story. The structure will help you to detach and look at things rationally.
3. Read other peoples thread. Respond. Even if it's just to say 'I'm here and I'm listening'. Knowing that there is someone else out there who gets you matters more than you know.
4. As AS said, find some GAL activities that involve other people. Join groups - climbing, running clubs. Get out of your comfort zone and when you're there force yourself to be present. Being present is one I still struggle with. Sometimes I can be out with people and still feel separate from them.

You asked a question about how to plan childcare without it seeming like pursuing. I find that (forcing) a kind of 'colleague' like friendliness worked best with my H. Try sending a message like "Hi - I am going to be in Madrid on xxx and would like to spend some time with S6 and S1. I would like to take them for one or two of the days. What days would work best for the children ". No pressure. Never any mention of also seeing her. Just a simple request to see the children. If she says no say, "Thank you. It would have been great to see them. Maybe next time". If she says "sure, then suggests some dates" respond with a simple "Perfect. Thanks. It will be great to see them".

Make your messages about your children. Not her. Never her. You (have to act like you) don't care if you see her or not. You can be friendly, maybe throw in a "hope you're well" or "have a great day" but nothing more personal than that. If there's something more regular, then send a "Hi W. I would like to sort out the childcare arrangements for the next few months. I can be in Madrid on the following days and would like to see the children. Do these days work?".

Your aim right now isn't to R. It is to become a better you and to build a co-operative co-parenting relationship. She needs to work through her own stuff. And she will do this according to her own timeline. Use the time wisely so that should she wish to come back, then you will be a better man then when she left. And if she doesn't come back, then you will still be a better man then when she left.

I hope that's helped.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/05/19 06:14 PM
Hi FlySolo, AS

Thanks a lot for the nice advice! Yes I am also working on doing GAL activities that involve more people!

I have learnt the hard way the priority system for her is very different to what I thought mattered but I am going to be a rock on this, make me a better man and a better human being in general. Keeping a journal is something I have seen many people recommend, it helps you cope with feelings and also makes you a better speaker of your mind. I will do so!

I had a bad day today, packing up for the trip to Spain I found the wedding ring and it was a tough moment, I ended up doing push-ups until my arms were hurting... what a disaster!

Great advice about the planning for the children FS, I want to see them more often but again I don't want to push her and she seems to be in the mindset of you get your time as per separation agreement. I have read threads in here that make it clear this is for the long run if you ever are to stand a chance and it takes all your effort and patience, but it also converts you into a man and leads you to new levels of maturity. I try to stay positive, act as if this was going to end well (hope for the best and prepare for the worst) and I recap everyday in bed if I took actions that bring me closer or further from the man I want to be.

Thinking about my 2 children gives me superpower and I am not joking. I have started to see I need to forget about W and R and focus on being the best role model for them and enjoy every second I spend together. I will read here today about detachment and as we know, 1 min at a time, 1 day at a time.

Thanks a lot you people are wonderful.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/05/19 07:38 PM
Paco

You're in a good place re the children. There are many on here who could tell you about monster partners who treat the children like pawns in a game to score points.

There is much talk here about 'detaching' and yes, in some cases, the hard line (minimal to no contact, yes and no responses, never initiating messages) is what is needed to allow the LBS mind and soul to heal. But that hard line option is not really available to us who have children. We have to maintain contact. Sometimes we have to initiate. And we definitely have to keep things on a friendly level. The trick is to think of her like your children's teacher. Be polite but suitably forceful. Show her that you are the man that the children deserve to have in their life.

I read above that you are thinking of orchestrating a career move so that you can live in Madrid. I am all for this as long as you are doing it so you get to spend more time with your children. If you're fearful that this might be taken as pursing, then frame the discussion in a way that it isn't about being closer to her (because it shouldn't be) but about being closer to your children. I'm sure that there are people here who can help you with putting together some words should that be something you want in the future.

My H and I successfully co-parent. He is a wonderful dad and he (mostly) respects me as a mum. He does not see anything I do or say as pursuit (because it isn't). There are pros and cons to this, but it is the path I chose. I am OK with it.

Good luck and keep posting.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/06/19 04:33 PM
Hi FS,

Thanks a lot for the advice! I must be very naive but I genuinely believe I can change and so our relationship so hopefully in the future we can have a chance. Even talking about the children is proving challenging. She keeps blaming me, she sounds angry all the time on the phone and keeps saying she has nothing to talk to me even when I call to schedule picking up the children

This DBing is the hardest thing ever, some days I feel she really wants to brake me and there is no chance for a R but other days I feel her anger can indicate there are feelings I can bring back.

The move to Madrid is of course for the children but right now she only wants my visits to stick to our agreement, again I do not recognize the woman I married. She knows I am in our hometown for a month now, maybe she has a revelation of some kind and lets me see her, the expectation is of course not.

I am reading now DB and wanted to ask, would you guys recommend telephone IC with DB? I was thinking about getting three sessions as a trial. Thanks a lot and lets stay as a lighthouse!
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/06/19 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19

I am reading now DB and wanted to ask, would you guys recommend telephone IC with DB?
I recommend it. Personally, I would quickly read the book before hand. Have some questions ready.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/06/19 08:20 PM
I would recommend it purely because unlike the advice you receive here, their advice will not be filtered through the lense of personal experience that we provide as well as where we are at in our own sitches. Plus, a phone conversation can be much more open and honest than typing on forum.

Originally Posted by Paco_19
She keeps blaming me, she sounds angry all the time on the phone and keeps saying she has nothing to talk to me even when I call to schedule picking up the children


Firstly, do not call. Email or message. Both your emotions are too high. It is easier to provide a structured argument and be detached using written communication.

Secondly, she will blame you for everything because right now she has to. Otherwise she has blown up your lives for nothing, or even worse, she has to look in the mirror and realise that at least half of this is her fault. Read the validation thread if you want some strategies on how to deal with this.

Originally Posted by Paco_19
I genuinely believe I can change and so our relationship so hopefully in the future we can have a chance.


You can change. That is within your control. Whether you have a future is outside your control. You say you are a workaholic (so am I by the way) and you feel that you neglected the marriage, then that is something that you can change. Do things that do not have to do with work. Find pleasure in it. Reawaken that part of you that gets excited about things. I have rediscovered a love of photography. A love of spirituality. This has nothing to do with my H. . If you do not R then you will have developed a passion for life that you did not have before. If you do R, then you can share this new found passion with her.

What is not in your control is whether you R or not. Work on the assumption that you will not - that doesn't mean jumping into another R. Like I said before I am two years down and I am no closer to R then when I started. But we are in a good place and I am content with my life. That has a lot more to do with the kind of man my H is than anything I have or haven't done. He will not admit he has made a mistake. He will not put our children through a potential reconciliation if there is any chance that he will have to put them through a breakup again. Live your life Paco. She will notice (even if she pretends not to) and she will either want you back or she won't.

Re the children and her 'sticking to the separation agreement'. I do not know the legalities around this in the EU. In the UK a separation agreement is always subject to change if there is a change in circumstances, for example, if your work situation changes and you are able to see the children more. Speak to a solicitor, see if there is any room to move. The other aspect you need to consider (and again not sure what the sitch is in the EU) is that in the UK the routine you establish during the separation is considered if/when you get divorced. It becomes the status quo, and the courts aim to maintain the status quo to minimise the impact on children once following a divorce. If there is anything you are uncomfortable with in terms of the separation agreement, speak to a solicitor now about getting it changed.

Some notes:

- keep all correspondence where you requested to see the children especially those where you weren't able to
- keep records of all the days you do see the children

in fact keep records of everything. As mercenary as it sounds, this is where the friendly 'colleague' thing is important. Never let your emotions get the better of you in writing. Keep your cool. Never swear, never accuse. Request politely. Say thank you whether she says yes you can see the children or no you can't see the children.

Yes - this is the hardest thing you will ever do. You have to keep your emotions in check (or at least cry in the privacy of your own bedroom) and maintain the higher ground at all times. This is why journalling is so important. You can rant to your hearts content, be as irrational as you like, and still those who read will not judge, because we have been where you are.

I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you be there as much as you can for the children. There are only so many years that a parent is the center of their childrens lives. Be a part of it. You are in Madrid . Msg her with days you want to see the children. Be reasonably forceful. "I understand it is not in our agreement, but I would like to see the children. I am around all month and can make myself available whenever it suits. Let me know what days it would be good for me to take them out ". Make it clear she does not need to be there, in fact make it clear you don't want her there.

Again, I am sorry you find yourself here.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/10/19 10:12 AM
Hi guys! FS you are becoming my best angel in here, thanks a lot! I did have a bit of a set back today, after 4 days with the children I had to leave them with her and I woke up today thinking how it is possible that I am not going to be there all days with my children and they are not going to get my support.

I am fighting to be the lighthouse, bring stability and peace to the lives of both S6 and S1 and at the same time control my emotions and move on. As I said my LRT +180 is to move on, to be a better listener and to never ever speak or bring up the topic of our R. I am enjoying things outside of work like preparing the house where I am going to be when I visit in Seville or every little moment I share with them but it just breaks my heart to be the missing piece of the family.

I am trying to experiment different 180s but even after weeks of no contact she keeps blaming me and being harsh. I know she needs to justify what has happened and I know she knows I am a good person and father and she has built up this wall against my changes. I know changes are for me and my own future but for example performance at work has decreased, I told my manager I need a long break to find myself again and overcome all the changes but I need to pay the rent in Germany and pension until I can definitely move to Madrid / Seville.

When I am with friends and family or with my children I am an ironman, I am not joking, is when left alone or attacked by her when I go back to the misery of the early separation days. A lot of people are telling me she does not deserve that I fight for her but I have learnt to ignore them. I look better, eat better and I have recovered my confidence but it is her ignorance and contempt that is killing me inside. I have all these thoughts about how far moved on she is, if she things about our good times, if she misses me at home with the children or if she will ever consider giving our R a chance in the mid term (is only been 1.5 months). Patience, exercising and all my books are helping me a lot but it feels like nothing I can change will be noticed by her simply because we have no contact at all.

Which actions from my side say "hi W, I am here being a lighthouse for our family, I will protect and serve our family above all in my life"? I am doing the following:

> I sit down with my S6 and speak to him about how he has experienced separation, I have apologised for all the mistakes I made at home when I lost temper, I have asked him about his day to day and reassured I will be here for him always.

> I am teaching my S6 new things to show him his relationship with dad will remain as it was before

> I holding and hugging them more than I ever had. I want my S1 to feel secure and happy as he develops.

> I look better, I am optimistic, I am acting as if we were going to R, I am cheerful and I tell my W when I make plans with my children to see if she would join.

What can I do reach her? how can I make her slow down the D and reconsider family and marriage?

On thursday she had this big party at work and she left our children sleeping in the in laws for the entire night, this is something we never did as a couple and it breaks my soul she goes and does it now because she needs to go out like crazy to feel young and free again. Then on friday she handed over the kids to my parents and told them I had all the fault and I had to calm down. This is the W I am dealing with. Then she writes to me without even saying hello, I take a deep breath and answer, "good morning W". I want to be the better person, I want to show her I have clarity of mind on how valuable our family is but she keeps kicking me out. Maybe she does need to see me move on, maybe she also needs to thing, heck I am losing him forever. I have a new 180 idea, I am going to take away her safety net, I am not second option to anyone and she also has a lot of introspection to do. There will be no R without that work from her side.

I am going to book 3 IC sessions to begin with, see how it goes. Lets keep DBing, being a better person is amazing! smile
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/11/19 10:01 AM
Hi all,

I wrote to my W yesterday the exact words that FS gave me and after no reply to my email I TM her to say I only needed an answer about the children. Her answer was she could not make it work this week. I asked if she was busy I could pick them up from school one day and she did not answer. When I insisted she told me to please stop writing to her and only talk about the children. I said it is about the children and she told me it wasn't the right time.

This morning she has called me crying saying I have no right to keep playing psychological games on her and that I destroyed our M for 5 years if now I am suffering I need to stand it and leave her alone. She said I am not thankful for the time when I have my children and I am not playing the role of a father.

I told her I want her to be happy and to be a full time father above everything and I only ask for 5 minutes in the park and again she threatened to have me blocked of her phone and only "communicate" via email. Honestly today is one of those days you feel like there is no point. I have read the lighthouse story 3 times already and I do not know what to think. Why would she cry? does she have feelings? am I suffocating her? I will leave her all the space there is but the price to pay will be to stick to the separation agreement when it comes to my children. I do not feel this is fair but now I have to walk this path.

I remain strong, LRT + GAL + act as if things were going to sort out. I really need those IC sessions now, I feel like nothing I do will soften her heart and all I get is blame and contempt.

Thanks a lot for all your support!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/12/19 11:38 AM
hi again,

I think I have had a big step backwards. As I said I am in Seville and I asked to pick up my children one day during the week and my W told me she could not make it work and I should not be unfair.

I insisted this Morning on picking them up today or tomorrow and she told me the following:

W: I cannot keep going like this. I will have to block you on Whatsapp. You are being unfair, when you have them every 2 weekends I do not bother you and you have 24hr, I only have 2 hr after work.

Me: I only want to see them 30 min in the park now that I am here in Seville. I do understand you must be very busy.

W: I do not want to speak to you. Talking to me you are not going to fix anything

Me: Regardless of what happens between us please do not get the children in between. Have a great day.

I am preparing a house here in Seville with my family, seeing friends and going out and I keep up with the sports routines but being so close to her and receiving such contempt and ignorance is bringing me down. I know we are here for the long run, we are here to be the rock of the family and the lighthouse in their lives but I feel a doormat she feels she has the right to ignore and push out of her life.

Could I get some help on how to stop the dynamics she is on, she clearly is pointing towards D...

Thanks a lot to all of you!
Posted By: BenB Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/12/19 02:24 PM
Hey Paco,

I´m sorry to hear you are going through this. Hopefully one of the vets will give you advice but just wanted to say this is to be expected. It often gets worse before it gets better. Remember to be cool, calm and confident no matter what she says. Everyone here has been through times where their spouse says crazy things. It won´t always be like this.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/12/19 04:14 PM
Paco, I don't think you're being unreasonable wanting to see the kids more often than every two weeks. However, when dealing with an uncooperative WAS you've got to get everything in writing and then stick to that written agreement. It sounds like you have some kind of agreement that you get them every other weekend? If you want to see them more often than that then it needs to be in the agreement. Is your agreement written or verbal? If verbal, then draw up a written agreement with the help of a lawyer. When it comes to kids, forget DB'ing and fight for as much visitation as possible, even if that means hiring a lawyer and playing hardball.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/16/19 10:44 AM
Hi all!

Thanks a lot for your comments! We do have a written agreement. When this all begun she threatened me in bad ways and even though I offered her to take some time in Spain she said this was no time but proper end of our M and I signed the agreement hoping it was the only path for R. At some point before leaving Germany she even took and hid the passports of our 2 children and that made me feel horrible (somehow I thought my W believes I am crazy to kidnap my own children, how is this possible?)

I am insisting on seeing them but all I get is replies like "I cannot make it work", "You are selfish and is my turn"...

I also have more doubts on my 180 and GAL. I was emotionally absent at home, I focused at work and missed my role as the lead of my M and family. She can see me upbeat and happy and being a good listener but if there is no communication how on earth is she supposed to see it. We talk strictly about the children and only in written form. When I have a breakdown and end up crying I think it is too soon (is only been 1.5 months since W left) and I remember the LRT, the lighthouse story and the support from all the people in this forum to get back on track.

I know the changes are for me, to be a better person. I was nervous and irritable at home, who wants to be around that? But I am spending a month closer to them and she keeps pushing me away. I have been focusing so much on creating a communication bridge that I am only getting frustration and pain. She has told me I am buying the love of S1 and S6 or that I am only the fun dad. My reply was "I want to be a full time father next to you but this is how our situation stands right now".

The worst feeling comes when I think about her dividing our assets and creating this new life without me. I know only attraction will get her back to consider R but how do you attract a person that is outside of your life?

I dont have many updates, GAL + 180 + being the best father I have ever been. This is the hardest trial I have ever endured and somehow I am confident and optimistic.

Thanks a lot for all the help!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 03:21 PM
hi all,

I was feeling so bad today I wrote to my W asking if we should get external objective help to piece. Maaaaaassive step back, what needs to be the mindset to let her go and truly stop pursuing?

LRT, LRT & LRT
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 03:25 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19
hi all,

I was feeling so bad today I wrote to my W asking if we should get external objective help to piece. Maaaaaassive step back, what needs to be the mindset to let her go and truly stop pursuing?

LRT, LRT & LRT


The mindset needs to be that pursuit and pressure have almost no chance of actually working. Ever. Until LBSs get that (and usually it is way too late), they can't seem to help themselves with this kind of action.

You know how you feel the moment after you sent the message? Try to remember that feeling BEFORE you send another message like that.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 03:44 PM
Hi Steve!

Thanks a lot for the quick reply. Its been only one month and a half since she left, hopefully not too late to start a proper LRT now. I do feel like an idiot following cheeseless tunnels, I will remember it next time!

Thanks a lot!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 04:37 PM
hi all,

I forgot to mention. I know with Christmas a very sentimental time of the year is coming up. I want to suggest we attend Retrouvaille before and big D comes along. As part of no pressure, I know I cannot bring this up but I want out of my heart to make her aware there is such a workshop available in our country, am I crazy for wanting that? Is there a way I could sincerely bring it up?

Thanks a lot guys, as I said W keeps ignoring me and has told me she wants to speak to me only about our children.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19
hi all,

I forgot to mention. I know with Christmas a very sentimental time of the year is coming up. I want to suggest we attend Retrouvaille before and big D comes along. As part of no pressure, I know I cannot bring this up but I want out of my heart to make her aware there is such a workshop available in our country, am I crazy for wanting that? Is there a way I could sincerely bring it up?

Thanks a lot guys, as I said W keeps ignoring me and has told me she wants to speak to me only about our children.



The only way I would advocate for you mentioning it is IF...IF she makes any move or statement suggesting she may be open to Ring. But for you just to bring it up out of the blue makes it have zero chance of actually happening.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 08:38 PM
How did your W feel about the move to Germany? Was she emotionally close to her family, and do they live in Spain?

Did your W stay home with your young children while in Germany, or was she employed? I am thinking of how I would have managed emotionally if I moved to a country where I did not know their language. Especially while taking care of two children, I would have felt vulnerable to the surroundings. Did she make friends in Germany? It's important that a young mother have emotional support from other married women/mothers. These questions are not placing blame at you. It's my way of getting a better view of the sitch, and maybe say something that is informative.

As a young husband and father, you did what most responsible men do. Being a great provider is one way men show their love for their family. The problem is when all his time/energy is spent working, and his W does not get one on one time with him. She needs their shared time with the children, but she is desperate to have private time where all of his attention is on her. Once your MR reconciles, you will be able to correct your mistake, and give her the intimate attention/time she needs. Unfortunately, she does not want it at this time.

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I have managed to find the way to move back to Spain (Madrid or remotely from Seville) because as you can imagine I am 200% up for saving my marriage and family.


That's great! Just remember, however, she does not feel the same. Men tend to think they can control how their W feels or thinks, and that's not the case. You may be able to influence her, indirectly, but while separated it's best that you don't put emotional pressure on her to change her mind. If I'm not making sense, please ask questions.

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It’s been only a month after separation, I have read DB almost twice now, I started GAL about 2 weeks ago (opera, sports, lost weight, good eating, out with friends, museums, tones of books, good music and plans with my children when I am in Spain every two weeks)


Great GAL activity!

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but my big question is how is my W ever going to notice change if we are in different countries and all she will speak to me about is expenses from our children and via email.


What does it have to do with your activity? Are you doing all these things to get her to notice you? If so, your motivation may lose steam. I encourage you to do these things b/c you want to be a more attractive and more interesting man. Do things b/c you enjoy it, not just to impress her. It's only been two weeks, but eventually, she'll probably take notice. That doesn't mean she will act on it in any particular way. Your job is not to point out your GAL to her. Men who point this out for his W to notice, are so obvious......and that is unattractive. So, be cool. cool

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After our separation, I know she still seeks divorce and the last time we spoke on the phone she told me I should be as far as possible from her, we could never be happy together, she blamed me for all that is happening and the effect it is having in our children and she shouted that she does not want to speak to me before hanging up. It is taking all my strength and faith to stay positive, visualize the man I want to be before every interaction with her, being that man and loving her despite all the blows (I believe I have made many selfish mistakes before and is time to look down and show true love).


Visualizing what kind of man you want to be, is great. Depending on her responses to validate that man, is not exactly healthy at this time.....b/c she is not in a positive place. Trying to get her to give you another chance to be the H she wanted, will not have positive results, at this time. I will say it harshly. She does not feel the love for you, like you feel for her. You cannot make her love you. You've got to give her time and space. In other words, you don't try to make your presence known through phone calls, texts, dropping by the house, etc. That is not giving her space from you.

Here's the problem about you showing your true love for your estranged W. She is not receptive to your love at this time. She is angry and wants nothing to do with you. Therefore, anything you do that even hints that you want to be with her........is going to cause a bad reaction from her. I understand that you want another chance to prove how much you love her, but at the moment, you have to resist the urge to "prove" it to her. You will have to quietly love her from a distance, instead of steamrolling her with "loving acts".

This is not the same girl you once dated, and married. You can't pursue her, b/c it only pushes her away. Perhaps it doesn't make sense, but that's b/c you still think of her as your loving wife, who you neglected. You see the mistakes you made and you are gungho to be the husband she wanted. But she is no longer interested in being your W. She feels the M died, and chasing after her is not going to change how she feels. Legally, she is still your W, but emotionally.......she has divorced herself from you. She has fired you as her H. Therefore, if you do any type of interaction that puts 1% emotional pressure on her........she is going to react very badly. She has made it clear that she does not want to see you or talk to you on the phone. If you try to go through the kids, or trick her, you are pressuring her. Do you see what I mean? She is not waiting around, hoping you will go sweep her off her feet. She feels quite the opposite. I am not saying this to hurt you or cause you to give up all hope of getting your family back. I am telling you to give up the pursuing methods, b/c they don't work on a W who feels done with you. Therefore, you need to leave her alone, and give her lots of space and time to get over her anger & pain.

I'm not suggesting that you leave the kids alone. You have as much right to the kids, as she does. Don't use the kids as your excuse when you are really wanting to interact with her. Know what I mean? We can advise you what to do, or not do, as we go along in the thread. So, I hope you will check with the board, before you decide to try something.

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As one of my try new things I was thinking about sending her the DB book as a Christmas gift saying something along the lines of only read it if you freely feel like it.


This is an example of putting emotional pressure on her. She has made it clear that the MR is over, for her. Right? Yet, here you are sending her a book about busing a divorce. That's not what she wants, Paco. And besides, that book is like your box of tools. They are for YOU, not her. She is not going to have the same feelings and mindset that you have.

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I do not want to control her by doing this,


But it is a controlling action. Just b/c you add a little note about only read if she wants, does not take away the control feature. You must learn to see this about yourself. Every time you use a control feature, you are digging the marital grave deeper. It is not your job or responsibility to fix your W. That concept is probably hard to digest, but please try.

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I feel she needs to know the concepts in DB


No, YOU need to learn the concepts of DB. It is not your job to decide what she should learn, think, feel, or do. She's fired you.

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she is only surrounding herself with people that support separation (oh! this person or that one got separated and took the kids to a psychologist, you will be fine or you deserve to be happy and you are so young) and I think this is really hurting our potential future, if there is any. She for example has created this support circle with her cousin who recently cancelled her wedding to a cheating boyfriend because she realized she was not truly in love and I cannot believe situations are comparable at any level.


I hate to hear that ^^^^^, and it's unfortunate. However, you can do nothing about it. She is free to choose who she wants to have as her support. If you try to convince her that the cousin is a negative influence, your W will push you further away. I'm not saying you have to condone what she does or who she spends time with, I'm just saying that you have to let go of controlling behavior. If you express your opinions about her friends, or anything else about her life.......she will buckle down and do more damage, out of spite toward you. So, you have to step back and stop advising her, or expressing your opinions.

Currently, your W wants one thing. It is freedom. She wants to experience life without you sticking your nose into her personal business. It makes it difficult for the LBH who wants to save his M. It's hard to watch someone you love make bad choices, and do things that could leave emotional scars on the children. I'm so sorry for your family. This journey is not fun, and things will likely get worse before you start to see a positive turn. She has to experience some things, before she'll be ready to reconcile. This situation is not all about you. Oh, she may blame you for everything, but I suspect you were not 100% responsible for the breakdown in the MR. I think she was very unhappy where she lived, and unhappy in her MR. I don't think she made the decision to separate in order to work on the MR. I think she did it, to escape. So, she has to figure out things for herself.

That brings me to the close of your first post. grin
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/17/19 10:05 PM
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I am starting my 180 yesterday but I have a big question about going dark. My problem has been I immersed myself on career and providing for a better school and house and totally neglected my marriage, it almost feels like I need to change into loving, through actions, but my W is still on fire and would not even stand me over the phone. Do you have any recommendations on this? Thanks a lot, I will read through all material today! Cant wait!


When a couple is separated, the H cannot do a lot of things he could do if they lived together. He can learn a lot about relationships/marriage, but he won't be able to act on some things, due to the separation. For example, the book on love languages is fantastic information. However, you have to use caution as to when you try to speak in your W's LL. Currently, she's not receptive to you, and just b/c you want to try this new thing out.........doesn't mean it will work like a charm to win her over. I think you should study the LL book a long time, before trying it on her. I can't warn you enough about jumping from one thing to another......in search of the magical formula that gets your W back. There are a lot of good books on the market that you could use this time alone to read. Then when you are together again, you will be a lot smarter. smile You need to focus on your own growth, goals, and changes. Take your main focus off your W, and the things you think she should know. Just work on Paco.

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We do have a written agreement. When this all begun she threatened me in bad ways and even though I offered her to take some time in Spain she said this was no time but proper end of our M and I signed the agreement hoping it was the only path for R. At some point before leaving Germany she even took and hid the passports of our 2 children and that made me feel horrible (somehow I thought my W believes I am crazy to kidnap my own children, how is this possible?)


I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that you thought she was going to just take a little time in Spain, and then come back? Did she trick you into a separation?

What kind of agreement did you sign?

What bad things did she threaten to do?

Estranged spouses "kidnap" their children and flee to other countries, to prevent the other spouse having them. Did you ever threaten to take the kids and go where she couldn't find them or get them back? Maybe she was paranoid? Is that why she gets so upset when you've had the kids a few days? I don't know, I'm just trying to understand what is really going on.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/18/19 06:18 PM
Hi Sandi,

Wow thanks a lot for spending so much time in my posts. I am not sure how to thank you! I guess ciberhugs! smile

I am really working on my changes for them to be permanent and make me a better man, I am also as you can imagine and read struggling with patience and no pursuing behavior. Exercising and eating well are really helping me on that sense.

So I suggested she moves to Spain and even with the children and then I come over, find a way to conciliate with work and discuss about her feelings. If on the same situation, we could then separate. She answered then it was not a couple's time, it was the end of our M and she had to do it properly and legally.

I signed an agreement where I visit every 15 days, I stay in Germany and then I provide a generous pension because she has taken school lunch of the standard and I contribute half the cost on top of the pension amount. As I said it is a bad agreement for me and the kids, now she does not want my parents to pick up the kids if I am not there and other ugly things. I have found a layer and with the reason of my job change I can push to change the agreement and not confirm it. I have told the lawyer I want to R and I only want a separation with better conditions for me and my family wrt the children. Just to give you another example, I have been in Seville for 2 weeks and she wouldnt let me see them for 30 mins when it is not my weekend. I want to change the agreement, we have to change it but I do not want to make it as if this is war.

I was proud of our life in Germany, after reading your first paragraph turns out I neglected a bunch of important things for her (we did have friends but all 10 to 15 years older than us as we were early parents and we shared children the same age with them and she suffered missing family and friends and not coping with the language quite well). I asked for the separation to happen there, being confident I could revert the situation. However, after coming to spain for summer she came back convinced she had to start over in Spain and if I argued against that she told me she would:

> Sleep with the first guy she came across just to hurt me
> Set up a mediator to pass on children so I never saw her again
> There would be 0 chances of R
> She would fight to take the children away from me because I travel at work

I never threatened to take the children away, I told her we could come back to Spain and change our life but her answer was the problem was me not the location and she was not in love. She said she did not mean to hurt me but she was following feelings and she could not stay unhappy next to me forever. I want to think she still can love me and is acting out of anger and frustration but the way she is pushing me away from the children is make me doubt if there is a chance I can save my M no matter how much work I put on myself.

I am also very intrigued on what you can tell me about the things I heard from her:

> It is all your fault, you need to change and then I need to get to know you, like you, trust you and love you again. This is very unlikely
> Our marriage was never meant to happen, you never loved me
> I am only listening to my feelings, there is nothing wrong with that
> I have been telling you all along, it is impossible to hurt someone unintentionally so long

Truth is when we fought I used to leave confrontation when I was feeling attacked by her. We have had tonnes of communication problems I see now after reading DB and DR. I wake up some days also visualizing the R I want us to have, but as you mentioned it is out of the table now.

I know I can make her happy, I know I cannot force her, I know our M lies on her hands right now and I know our children are top priority for both of us. I tell myself, is been too short, stay strong and make changes permanent for yourself, be the best father no one has ever been but there are still days I find myself crying out of pain. Like my aunt said, I cry at home and go out with no tears left!

Thanks a lot Sandi, cannot wait to hear from you again.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/19/19 11:24 AM
hi all!

I have an important question I want to ask. After being here 2 weeks close to my family I have not been able to see our S1 and S6 outside of my visiting schedule according to the agreement I signed when I was in Germany with my W.

To give some background, when I signed the agreement I was all low and feeling guilty for the M issues and we signed a very basic agreement where:
> W gets very generous pension with some additional items that should not be there
> I visit Thursday to Monday every 15 days
> W gets to choose school for S1 and S6
> I stay in Germany
> The pension was calculated only based on my salary, W has a new job now and I do not know her salary. She did not even tell me her new address, I had to get it via the moving labels (this is so sad sometimes I feel like asking for the D myself)

This does not cover my family picking up the children when I am not there, weekly visits when I am here working from home, a fair pension...

My life situation is due to change and I am moving back to Spain so I have a great opportunity to change everything as both my home address and salary will change. I have 2 options.

1 - I use the same attorney we did (who favors her) and cause no issue
2 - I use my new one, I spend $2000 and make a new agreement. I have asked for it to remain a separation to what the attorney has laughed because it costs the same and implies the same as a D but I told her my vision is to save my M and hopefully R.

I want to defend my position but at the same time remain respectful and cordial to W because of course I am not going to initiate D (in her mind our M is dead I know but I am going to fight for this). What should I do?
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/19/19 12:08 PM
Definitely option 2. I'm a big proponent of fighting for your parental rights and getting the most visitation you can. Regarding saving your M, that is way, way down the road. So don't back down from your parental rights in the hopes of appeasing her, because it won't. Nothing you can do will appease her for quite a while. In fact if you let her have her way, she will have even less respect for you.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/19/19 04:11 PM
1. Change in situation is grounds for a change to the separation agreement - but your attorney would have told you this.
2. In the UK (and in the EU I think) what is established during the separation becomes the status quo and in the event of a divorce, courts try and maintain the status quo because any further change is viewed as disruption to the children. What this means for you is if you only see the kids every 2nd weekend and this has been the norm throughout the separation, then the court views it as the status quo and it is harder to change. If you pay your W x amount each month, then the court views that as the norm and will try and maintain it.

If there is anything you want to change in respect of the separation then do it now because the longer it goes on then the longer the 'norm' is established and the more difficult it will be to change.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/20/19 10:33 AM
Hi FS, AS,

Thanks a lot for the reply, I definitely want to fight to change it and the lawyer has recommended it to me. I will change the agreement and keep it a plain separation.

I had a very good interaction with W yesterday, but my hopes are kept under control. I came to pick up the clothes of the children and it went something like this.

W: Hi, I know we need to talk about Christmas presents for S1 and S6 but I am very tired today and have tones of things to do, I'd rather call you at some other time, I hope you can respect it

Me: I understand. You must be very tired after the week with the children. I hope you get a good rest this weekend. I'll be there by 8 pm

(I arrive there and she comes out with suitcase, I pick it up and ask her a couple of school related questions)

Me: goodnight W (attempt to kiss her on the cheek)

W: I am not going to kiss you now

Me: Sure (walks away in cool fashion)

(10 mins later she calls me and we spend a great 20 min talking about her present ideas where I listen, ask questions and validate her feelings)

I dont know if she called me in regret after sending me away so fast or simply because it was a good time for her. I only know I want more of these interactions. I love all I am learning from you guys.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/20/19 01:34 PM
Paco, given the volatile relationship the two of you have right now definitely do not go in for a kiss or a hug or anything of the sort. Stick to BUSINESS ONLY.

Quote
Me: I understand. You must be very tired after the week with the children. I hope you get a good rest this weekend. I'll be there by 8 pm


This is a good, validating yet business-like response. Try and maintain this type of communication with her both by text/ email and in person.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/20/19 01:45 PM
Hi all,

I have been reading the posts that Sandi made here and I have a couple of questions.

If she was escaping unhappiness in MR and foreign country and now she keeps ignoring me like a piece of paper, what chances do I have? who wants to go back to a place where we have suffered? I guess I am having a bad day, I asked her to talk about the kids this weekend and of course it was a mistake, back to GAL and LRT.

I keep reading and trying to accept the idea that she must decide, she must want to come back to the marriage and all I can do is be the greener grass. It is so unfair she cannot observe her mistakes, I made an unfortunate comment on the phone yesterday and she quickly cut me saying, "just stop, dont say that, what you ought to say is ok and listen". I am banging my head against a wall and I cannot ignore her and do a proper 180 because I still have that feeling that my life has collapsed.

When I speak to my son he keeps telling me he wants to live with us together, he wants to go back home in Germany and play with me again. I might have been a bad husband or taken my wife for granted but who does not ache in front of those words? I know they need me strong and positive but I am finding myself praying to God now. I cannot talk to my W, friends and family mock me for my position and hope and my son is asking me to keep going and that is enough to make me shake earth and sky. Thanks a lot to all of you!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/20/19 01:54 PM
My W never liked the way my family cuddles our children and buy them gifts. I am not sure what it is but my W now says I am the fun dad and I only buy my children's love. I think she has some serious mental alienation because I never ever had to buy their love and she is making me feel even worst than during our domestic separation.
Posted By: ozman Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/20/19 03:46 PM
Hello paco. I’m sorry your here

I’m new to giving advice so take it for what you will.

Right now your W doesn’t know anything except how miserable she is. I think you are reading too much into each conversation you have with her. Remember Sandis rules? How often have you read them? Remember. Believe nothing of what she says and only half of what she does.

You said you feel like a doormat. DONT BE A DOORMAT!! When you tried to kiss her you applied a massive amount of pressure. Pressure is bad. Very bad. Trust me. I have been one of the most hard headed unteachable people of this forum.

When you go out. You need to do it with QUALITY men. Guys you can talk to. Guys who will listen to you and guys who will back up your decision to fight for your M. Just understand that fighting for your M doesn’t mean anything about W. It’s all about you!

That being said. I know it’s hard. And painful. I’m sorry your here.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/20/19 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19
I am not sure what it is but my W now says I am the fun dad and I only buy my children's love. I think she has some serious mental alienation because I never ever had to buy their love and she is making me feel even worst than during our domestic separation.


I remember how hard it was when my kids were little. It seemed that all I ever did was wash, cook, clean and then start again. All this whilst two children were constantly wanting my attention. I couldn't even go to the toilet on my own as they didn't like me being in a different room. I use to wait until they'd gone to bed, pour myself a glass of wine and not finish it because I was too tired and all I really wanted to do was sleep. I can only imagine how much worse that would have felt if I was on my own and my H came every two weeks, took them out for ice-cream and walks in the park or to the zoo or whatever. It would [censored].

So, understand your W does not have some serious 'mental alienation'. She is tired and frustrated and sees you and the children having a good time. But, having said that, her frustrations are her problem. Her tiredness are her problems. They have nothing to do with you and you have done nothing wrong.

Carry on as you have been. Giving your children love and affection is never wrong.

Maybe validate a little.

"W, I understand why you may think but I only see the children every two weeks and the time is precious to me. I want to make them count. I am not buying their love. I am showing them that they are loved."

Merry Christmas Paco

Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/22/19 11:56 AM
hi all!

Thanks a lot for your replies and Merry Christmas to all of you as well. I have been better with the children but my W is still ignoring me even if I try and tell her about the little one being sick.

I do not want to put any pressure on her but I still feel like my life cannot go on forever like this, I look at the little one smiling and I think "how can this not be a reason to fight? I will change all I have to and keep the confidence but I will reunite my family"

I talked to the lawyer about changing the separation agreement and I hope I can sit down with her before that all happens. It would feel cold but I already asked her to split children from our R/D.

With Christmas coming I wanted to send her a meaningful present, something as the first movie we saw at a theater but people warn me against this, what do you guys think?

The other day on the phone she was asking me not to mention anything about us and she shouted to me that it was incredible how I had destroyed our marriage during 5 years and that I have not changed a little bit. I am killing any temper bursts, being more positive and happy than ever with my children and around W and as I always say exercising and good food are helping me incredibly.

Every single day I think about asking her out, then I come here, read a bit and cry at home.

If I write to her something sincere and loving she will tell me that I am playing psychological games on her, what does she mean by that?

I have seen her 3 or 4 times in 2 months and always she remains cold and aggressive with me. Everybody around me tells me she is happy and going out and moving on. I cannot find anyone outside of here that supports my position to save my M so I end up going out to have fun and avoid the subject.

Is there a positive way to interact with her during the holidays?

Thanks a lot for all your help!
Posted By: BenB Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/22/19 12:45 PM
Paco, I know during weekends and probably now during holiday season you might not get as many replies as usual. And I´m no vet but I can tell you this -

Do NOT send her that present and do not try to remind her of your past together. That will not have any positive effect!

I had all the same thoughts as you many months ago. My W and I had been together for close to 9 years but only married for 7 months before she "changed". Our wedding day was August 4, 2018. I have never seen so many people cry and during our first dance, I had a very well known pianist play the Piano guys version of Ed Sheeran´s "Perfect". We spent 3 months practicing our dance and when we were finished, everyone erupted in applause and I saw so many crying. Including my W and I.

I could not believe she had forgotten about this magical moment and wanted to remind her. We still hadn´t seen any of the videos from the wedding as I had to download close to 300Gb and needed a new hard drive for that so one day I went and bought one, downloaded it and edited the video of our dance, crying my eyes out while watching it. But then I found this forum and started to get a better understanding of why she is doing what she is doing and decided not to give that to her. One day when I felt weak and badly missed her affection and love, I told her "hey so you know, I have all our videos now from the wedding now, edited and all". Her response was just "mhm". She didn´t care. I´m so glad that´s all I said. I would have regretted it so much if I had given it to her as a gift.

All it would have done is remind her how she no longer feels that way and on top of that she would have felt pressure which is the last thing you want her to feel now.

Regarding people around you saying she seems happy, that is completely normal at this point. Often prior to BD they feel something is wrong and that builds until they finally drop the bomb. It´s the same way many break ups work. They can fear having to do that, the confrontation of it but after it´s done, it´s this sense of freedom they feel. Like the hard part is over, now it´s good times ahead and smooth sailing from now on(they think).

What was most painful for me during this time was that I would wake up every morning thinking for a short moment that everything is normal and then I´m reminded that I´m living my worst nightmare, I´m losing the love of my life, my sweetheart. I would get up to get ready to work out since that was all that reduced my anxiety slightly and I felt like I was living in a horror movie. As I walked out of the bedroom, I would hear my W singing in the shower with songs playing from the portable speaker. Here I was living in this nightmare horror movie and my W was happier than ever.

Your family and friends say that because they are emotionally detached from the situation. They look at you and see a great guy who is making an effort and has love for his family and feel you deserve better. I tell my family very little about my situation with my STBXW but I can still tell they have completely changed their opinion on her. They know me and know all I have done for her and probably think "who does she think she is letting go of Ben who´s done everything for her". If only they knew all the things she´s actually done... If you had a friend who was going through the same as you and his W treated him the way your W treats you, what would you recommend him to do?

Paco, be the best man you can be and it sounds like you are on your way. Just like you I worked out and studied what to eat. When my nightmare began in February I weighed over 94kg(207lbs) and my body fat was 30.6%. Last month I was down to 67kg(147lbs) and 9.2% body fat. I have read so many books and pages on this forum, I have learned to calm my own anxiety, to quiet my mind, I have learned not to need anyone elses validation to feel better. It´s a journey but would I trade all this new knowledge and state of mind I´m in to have my wife back? Absolutely not! Maybe one day I´ll meet her again but my focus is now on me. She has her journey, I have mine. Paco, this, what is happening to you, it is a blessing in disguise if you learn to see it that way. You have been given the gift of time. Use it wisely.
Posted By: job Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/22/19 01:48 PM
Paco,

Do not attempt to remind her of what she had and has lost. Right now, she is living in her present and has blocked most of the good things from the past w/you and your family.

I wouldn't send her a meaningful gift. If you get anything, make it impersonal and from the children. Right now, she is in a dark place and nothing is bright and airy for her when it comes to you and the relationship.

Oh, those words about you haven't changed or nothing has changed...they are the words of someone who is looking for something to make them feel better. They don't have a clue as to why they feel the way they do, but they think that if everyone and everything would change, she would feel better. That is a bunch of BS. She is definitely looking for something to make her feel better about herself and her little world. Unfortunately, she doesn't realize that the only way to make herself happy is to look within. Exterior things will only bring you joy for a bit and then...poof! Then you look for something else.

Only communicate with her about the children and Christmas visitation. Leave the relationship talks alone. The more you attempt to show her what she had and what life can be at the moment, the more she's going to pull away. Keep the focus on you and your children. Leave her be. Always remember, actions speak louder than words. Show her that you can move forward and have a fulfilling life w/o her. Show her the man you were when you met.

Dig deeper for patience and just leave her be.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/22/19 05:12 PM
Don't send that present. If you don't understand why then you have a lot of reading and work to do. Go read R2Cs links on attraction and seduction. Read about PUAs and learn from them. Yes you'll have to google that.

The psychological games is that she is feeling hurt by you and all these things from over the years and now that she has decided to leave you you are finally giving her the full court press. It's too late. So it p!sses her the h3ll off. And so does the fact that she told you she doesn't want you and you can't hear her or take her seriously.

As for the positive way to interact with her there is tons of info on this site, you need to do the reading in the welcome post and read it often so that you can absorb it. You detach, act polite but not overly pleasant, stick to business, be brief and succinct, and be the one to end the conversation first.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/22/19 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19
I do not want to put any pressure on her but I still feel like my life cannot go on forever like this, I look at the little one smiling and I think "how can this not be a reason to fight? I will change all I have to and keep the confidence but I will reunite my family"


Let's start here. She did not leave your little ones. She left you. I know that's hard to take but it is her truth. In her head, she still has her family. It just does not include you. Understand she did not do this to hurt your children, or even to hurt you, she did it because she thought the family unit was better spit into two. Do not hate her for this. In her head she is doing what is right.

Originally Posted by Paco_19
... my W is still ignoring me even if I try and tell her about the little one being sick


She is not ignoring you. She is listening. I sometimes do this when my H speaks to me. I cannot look at him the emotions raging inside me are so overwhelming and I do not know what will come out of my mouth. Your W is listening. She just can't look at you and she cannot bring herself to engage because she is scared it will lead to an R talk and she does not want that. It is enough that you told her your little one is sick. Trust me, she heard you.

Originally Posted by Paco_19
I talked to the lawyer about changing the separation agreement and I hope I can sit down with her before that all happens. It would feel cold but I already asked her to split children from our R/D.


No - do not talk to her about it. My guess is you want to scare her into coming back. It won't work. It will weaken your resolve, play into your nice guy tendencies and ultimately put you back where you are now - with limited access to your children. Just send it. When it comes to access to children, particularly when the other party is hostile, business like and cordial is better.

Others have said it, but I will reiterate. Do not send the present. Give her a card but don't let it be sentimental. Make it a card you would send to a colleague. "W, hope you have a merry christmas and a happy new year. From Paco"

Originally Posted by Paco_19
The other day on the phone she was asking me not to mention anything about us and she shouted to me that it was incredible how I had destroyed our marriage during 5 years and that I have not changed a little bit ... if I write to her something sincere and loving she will tell me that I am playing psychological games on her, what does she mean by that


This is known as rewriting history. They all do this. When my H was leaving he cherry picked all the bad memories and when I tried to counter with good memories, be turned those into bad ones too. Our getting together in the first place, our engagement, our wedding day, even the births of our children. A few months after he moved out, I asked him (on one of the last R talks we had) how he could do that. How he could destroy our past. He said none of what he said was true, that he regretted nothing about our M. He said I was so demanding of a reason and he had none - so he looked for reasons. Your W is looking at the world from a negative place. She has to justify why she left. They have to be harsh because if they give in even an inch, then that whisper in their heads - 'you are doing the wrong thing' - might become a shout. I know this doesn't make you feel any better, it is soul destroying hearing someone tell you you are the cause of all their misery. But maybe if you understand why, it might make it a little easier.

Nothing u do right now will bring your W back. Focus on yourself and your children.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/22/19 11:38 PM
hi all,

wow thanks a lot! I have to say you guys always bring the nice reality slap, I do need it. One thinks he has understood the let her go mindset and what talking business means and yet I find myself thinking about her as of my W, the loving one I took for granted.

She has all reasons to be cold, she told me many times we were going down as a couple (on occasions too aggressively) but she did it, and I ignored her thinking how can she say that, we will get much better in the future. She must be feeling like I am the biggest jerk on earth, as in we separate and now you want to give me the full show. I know it is too late, but between fear and faith, I have chosen to believe.

I want to thank you all for your help and encouraging words. I will archive all photos, no matter how much it hurts, make a life for my children and me and come here anytime I want to ask her out or I feel like sending a loving message. I want to be that man again, how can I have gone from a confident, cheerful and fun person to a clinging sucker? I am sure I love her when even remembering the dreadful things she has said to me, I still think she is worth my marital purgatory this feels like, I want to grow old with her and I want to give her a whole different relationship.

When I talked about the little one I only meant I feel like he deserves to have mom and dad together and learn from them what it is to have a loving relationship. I am going to drop here the biggest question in my mind right now?

W is living in Seville now, where my family is also located. I have the option to be in Seville or Madrid for work due to frequent travel being the key. Without thinking about her now, in the future, say I managed to DB my situation, would it help to be in the same city? What is the experience with people who have successfully saved their M when relocation is in between?

I spend a lot of time on thinking about new 180s, how can I surprise her? my big one is NO MORE R TALKS. How on earth it is so hard? I am supposed to be a clever man and yet I feel like a child with an addiction. Other two big ones are VALIDATION and ACTIVE LISTENING. I am working on those along with myself. As I said, exercise, good food, piano, culture, my passion for cars and my children.

Thank you all, this forum is a peace island in the middle of the worst nightmare I have ever experienced!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/23/19 11:26 PM
Hi all,

I had a bad interaction today, let me explain.

3 out of 4 weekends I have had my children in Spain one of them or both this time are sick. I know my W spends a lot of time dinning and similar outside because you know life in the south of Spain. Anyway the other day I sent her a message telling her next time to let me know when they are sick specially if they throw up twice or more overnight. I told her that I would be caring not only for how I parent but also how she performs as mother. I also told her is the last time there is a party at school, I am in town, and she sends her parents and does not even let me know.

So today as I gave my W the kids back she told me to never email her anything like that, that she knows my family puts pressure on me by attacking her (this is true btw) and that if I am going to be consistent to be on either that or loving her and telling her I failed. I started validating her feelings calmly and her answer was I was agreeing with her as you would agree with a mentally ill person. In a matter of minutes she was again on anger, she told me I had broken this family, I was the only one to deserve dirt on top and she only had left behind a person she does not love anymore and that is nothing to be criticized. She went on to say we will never ever argue again like this in front of the children or her new neighbors so she asked me to only talk about the kids. Specifically she said, "in the days coming now I will have them do not TM me or call, I only want to speak about the kids, I am making an effort to see you because I cannot even stand seeing your face"

I stood calm, I told her "I know I have made many mistakes and I know I was not the man you deserve. I am firm in reconciliation and the pursue of a satisfactory family life with you, that is what you will see". Today she looked fantastic, so did I but she really got me there. As always, she euphorically salutes our children and wouldn't even look me at the face. After the conversation/argument she left in anger and I told her she looked beautiful and I loved her while looking at her in the eyes.

Tomorrow is Christmas eve, my life is a mix of an emotional turmoil and failure feeling. My wife literally hates me and keeps blaming me for breaking my family and our MR. The woman that once was my safety and happiness shelter now shoots at me the most hurting words I have ever heard. I know, do not believe anything they say, but after they say it 10 times it is hard to remain a rock.

My question today is brief and sad, should I call her tomorrow to wish her Merry Christmas?
Posted By: job Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/24/19 12:13 AM
If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't call her. I would step back, give her lots of time and space to mull things over. She can't miss you if you are calling her. Let her wonder what you are doing for the day. If she contacts you, then wait a while before responding. Don't be hasty in calling/texting her. Give her the space she craves. Until she comes to realize that you are not her whipping boy, she'll continue to spew at you.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/25/19 03:07 PM
Hi all,

I must be one of those stubborn DBers that takes long to learn. I keep getting great advice from all of you and making the same mistakes. Yesterday around 23:45 i sent W a message reading "Merry Christmas W, I hope you three are having a great time". I woke up today without a single reply.

I know its been only two months but clearly reminding her of how much I love her does not work. I need a new strategy. I will also take my MR as dead, act as if I am moving on, and be distantly loving with W (no PM or any communication).

I am leaving my R in the hands of god, your advice guys and the long run future. The GAL and LRT ideas are helping me a lot but I was confident I could offer her something different. This is not on my hands and the pressure to change so many things simultaneously is killing me. What happened yesterday was one of those handless slaps that get you to your heart. I will leave her alone, even if it is the last thing I do for her and I end up losing her.

Thanks a lot, you are my strongest support!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/27/19 06:53 PM
Quote
If I write to her something sincere and loving she will tell me that I am playing psychological games on her, what does she mean by that?


She knows you better than anyone else. When you try various methods to get a desired reaction from her, then she may feel you are manipulating her.

Quote
I told her that I would be caring not only for how I parent but also how she performs as mother.


She is already on guard against everything you say and do. She doesn't trust you. I suggest you not make reference about how she performs as a mother.

Quote
So today as I gave my W the kids back she told me to never email her anything like that, that she knows my family puts pressure on me by attacking her (this is true btw) and that if I am going to be consistent to be on either that or loving her and telling her I failed. I started validating her feelings calmly and her answer was I was agreeing with her as you would agree with a mentally ill person. In a matter of minutes she was again on anger, she told me I had broken this family, I was the only one to deserve dirt on top and she only had left behind a person she does not love anymore and that is nothing to be criticized. She went on to say we will never ever argue again like this in front of the children or her new neighbors so she asked me to only talk about the kids. Specifically she said, "in the days coming now I will have them do not TM me or call, I only want to speak about the kids, I am making an effort to see you because I cannot even stand seeing your face"

I stood calm, I told her "I know I have made many mistakes and I know I was not the man you deserve. I am firm in reconciliation and the pursue of a satisfactory family life with you, that is what you will see". Today she looked fantastic, so did I but she really got me there. As always, she euphorically salutes our children and wouldn't even look me at the face. After the conversation/argument she left in anger and I told her she looked beautiful and I loved her while looking at her in the eyes.


Do you understand why she was so angry? Stop telling her all that stuff about pursuing a life with her. Stop talking about your mistakes and that you weren't the man she deserved. Stop telling her how she parent the kids. Stop telling her she looks beautiful and that you love her (especially, when she is storming off after an argument). She does not want to hear it, and she gets angrier when you continue this line of conversation. It is pursuit. This doesn't work, so stop doing it.

Your job is to change yourself. It's not your job to change her. You have to stop pressing her. You have to stop talking to her as if she is still your loving W. In other words, don't talk to her about personal things, feelings, love, MR, etc. Communicate politely about the children. Respect her wishes and don't text message. Don't discuss matters in front of the kids.

She wants more space. Do you understand what that means? She doesn't want to hear from you, nor see your face. Maybe in time, she will stop being so angry.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 12/29/19 12:43 PM
hi Sandi,

Merry Christmas!

Thanks a lot for the reply. I cannot begin to thank you again for visiting my thread. I will follow your advice and report after some time has gone by.

I need to stop seeing her as my W and also cut my pursuing behavior. This is the hardest thing I have ever done, but I have nothing more important to do.

Thanks again Sandi
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/07/20 03:04 PM
hi all,

I have an important question I want to ask. After spending a month in Spain there have been some good and bad interactions but I did not get the chance to talk to her privately. When I talked to her calmly and asked about this she claimed it was my fault because of my attitude and that I am putting pressure on her.

I read everyday the 37 rules and try to interiorize them and I need to leave her space and time. Yesterday I saw her to give the children back before I came back to Germany. I noticed she has tattooed a little triangle on her arm and I asked her since we always said we liked it but we would not mark our bodies forever. her answer was I do not know her at all.

She has not filed for divorce but we have to confirm the separation agreement next 4th February. As we spoke before I have requested the service of a second lawyer to change the agreement but she threatened me that if I do not do so I will not see the children as often as I am doing it now. I have a terrible internal struggle, I want to save my marriage so I want to avoid conflict with her but at the same time I will not reaffirm a separation agreement where the pension is unfair and my family does not get time with my children if I am not there with them. How am I supposed to approach this situation when I know it will lead to conflict but I do not want to start divorce and I want to transmit to her that I love her and that I want to fight for our marriage but not at any cost?

Please help me, I am feeling terrible. She has threatened me again saying I am harassing her and she has told me she hates to have a broken family but she cannot be happy with me. Eventually I left and I flew to Germany with a very sad spirit.

If she wants a kind and distant father, she will get one, a loving one but I have made the strong commitment to turn the 37 rules into my bible. I do not want this to turn into a conflict but she is vindictive. Both on christmas eve and new year I got no message from her, I guess this is normal but it did hurt.

I know the tattoo thing is tiny and stupid but it really got me as one of those things she is doing to get a life away from me, something she would never consider when with me. We had our first son when we were both 22, maybe she feels as if she has not lived through the crazy years, I dont know but she still gets me. It [censored] she has the ability to hurt me so much.

Something I have noticed as well is the way she talks to me. She gives me orders as in tell me when you are giving me back the children or come now or tell me when your next flight is. I try to be respectful and give her space and time but it scares me to death that my marriage might be over. I know I must accept is a possibility but after only 5 years, without getting any external help or talking to the family, it really feels as if we do need a second chance. I dont know, maybe I see the good memories or see the way my children are being affected by this and I want to put an end to it too soon when my focus should be on permanent change and no MR / R talk ever. What a nice new year resolution, to implement LRT properly, because my marriage depends on it!

Hopefully, as Michele states it, she does not know that one day she will join forces in the fight for our marriage. All people keep telling me to give up and take my marriage as dead. It is hard not to agree with them after the way she is behaving but I am on my own path, GAL and no pursue at all.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/07/20 03:41 PM
Your MR is over. Sorry to be blunt Paco, but you seem to be in denial about that one, simple fact.

Even if you end up back together, it has to be in MR 2.0, with a new dynamic. So you need to start thinking about it in those terms. Your M is over.

Now, some good news. D doesn't mean no R (AS and I just had this conversation with another poster!) Sometimes D has to happen for R to occur later. Maybe R will never occur. All of that is OUT OF YOUR CONTROL. So stop trying to control that.

So let deal with this question:

"How am I supposed to approach this situation when I know it will lead to conflict but I do not want to start divorce and I want to transmit to her that I love her and that I want to fight for our marriage but not at any cost?"

First, why are you afraid of D? Fear is never going to help you move forward. And you speak about all of these things as if they are mutually-exclusive. They are not.

You can fight for a better separation agreement. First, hire a lawyer. These are legal proceedings and you need an expert to guide through it. Take the agreement to a good D attorney, and let them craft an agreement from it that you can live with. Then have your lawyer send it to her. With an official agreement from a law firm it will carry more weight.

Second, in any interaction involving the kids (drop off, pick up, communications about drop off and pick up) be upbeat. Kind. Pleased. Content. That is how you show her you are changing. That is how you "transmit love". You also transmit love by giving her the space she wants. At this point you should be No Contact. I know your next question is "what about the kids?" NC means no contact UNLESS it is about the kids.

Here is how it works:

All communication you initiate is about the kids...and the kids only.

If she initiates contact about the kids, engage. If she initiates contact not about the kids, you listen and validate (if verbal).

If she texts or uses written communication and it isn't about the kids, you do not respond unless it is a direct question. If it is a question you answer in your own time (not right away), and then in as few words as possible. Yes or no questions should get yes or no answers. If they are difficult questions like "Did you sign the separation agreement yet?" you redirect. "Sorry, been really busy. I will need some time to digest the agreement before I respond."

You have to drop your fear of D, start handling her in a business like manner, and only engage her when it is about the kids, and even then do so business like.

Paco, if you want to save your marriage you have to STOP trying to save your marriage. See this thread:

The secret to saving your marriage is in here
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/07/20 04:52 PM
hi Steve!

Thanks a lot for the reply! Yes, I am scared, I get all this social pressure from most of the people around me that when a woman has made this strong decision it is forever, I have had lawyers, therapists, family and common friends telling me to get over it and go on with my life as this is final.

Now I know I cannot be scared, between fear and hope I have chosen the second. But yes with all the pressure in my head I fear D, I have days when I feel like an idiot for fighting for my marriage. Everyone says, the longer you let her have a life without you, the more she will move on from you. I even have people telling me they have seen her with someone. She has been living there for 2 months and as we separated she told me I was the problem, I had to change and she wanted to be alone. My sick mind is playing tricks on me, but anytime these thoughts come I replace them with thoughts about me being a good man, my ability to change and my ability to have this 2.0 M that you speak about.

I started reading DR for the 3rd time yesterday and it amazes me how I continue to find new concepts there. The book is an oasis in the middle of this situation, to tell me what to control and what to change.

I have already hired a lawyer, my 180 is going to be to be happier, a better christian and a better man on every aspects of my life and also to stop any conversation outside the children. you are absolutely right Steve, my M where I neglected my W and I made her feel like she was not the number one priority in my life is dead and for the better. thanks a lot
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/09/20 01:09 AM
Quote
After spending a month in Spain there have been some good and bad interactions but I did not get the chance to talk to her privately. When I talked to her calmly and asked about this she claimed it was my fault because of my attitude and that I am putting pressure on her.


Paco, when a wife (and mother of his kids) leaves him, it is not b/c she wants him to pursue her. Ever since your W moved away from you, you have chased after her. Separation is not an opportunity to pursue. Can you understand that you must give her time away from you? You are not detaching yourself. You contact her all the time, and you use your children as an excuse to talk to her. You are hurting your chances to reconcile, b/c you refuse to leave her alone. Stop talking to her!

Quote
How am I supposed to approach this situation when I know it will lead to conflict but I do not want to start divorce and I want to transmit to her that I love her and that I want to fight for our marriage but not at any cost?


First, you do what is right. I don't know your laws, but I suggest you trust your lawyer to get as much time with your children as is "fair". Allow the lawyer to fight this battle, and stop putting pressure on your W. I cannot stress enough how unattractive it makes the H look. Take one task at a time. I don't think you can save your MR at the moment, while trying to fight to have the kids see your family as much as they see her family. Neither will it save your MR to let her have everything and you don't get to see your kids. So, listen to your lawyer, do the fair thing, and stop talking to her. If you must connect about children's visitation, only do so in an email. No texting, no calling. Stop trying to catch her to talk privately. Why do you think this is working? She doesn't want to be around you, Paco. You are making things worse, b/c you will not leave her alone. Please follow the advice in the book, and on the board.

I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I will say this......so maybe you will change, if it is true. I get the feeling that you don't listen very well to your W. Perhaps you have a dismissive attitude when she is trying to respond. Maybe you insert the things you want to say while she is speaking. Does your voice tend to get stronger as you speak to her? Frustration can cause our voices to sound angry. Some men have powerful voices. I'm not taking sides with either you or her. I'm simply trying to help. As a woman, I think the more you try to do what you consider "saving the marriage", the more damage you cause at this time. I understand that you don't want a divorce. You need to be respectful of her feelings. I wonder if she feels she's not being heard by you. You don't have to express your disagreement about her feelings. Sometimes, it could sound as if you invalidate her feelings, when you are trying to get her to see your way. I'm not saying you have to agree with her feelings, but they are her feelings. I doubt that she cares about your feelings, if you over-ride what she tries to express. Understand? I hope I am wrong, but sometimes I have a mental image of her being badgered into changing her decision. Even if she was pressured so strongly that she changed her decision.......it would not change her heart. Give her time apart from you talking to her. I don't mean days.......I mean weeks, even months. Yes, it hurts you, but your current and previous actions have only pushed her further away.

Don't put your kids in the middle, thinking their sadness and their desire to be with their dad will change her mind. I think you use them. Maybe not with bad intentions, but to make her feel guilty for tearing the family apart. It doesn't work, Paco. You can't make someone love you, especially this way. When we tell you that you need to change, that's exactly what we mean. It doesn't mean you are suppose to pressure her to change.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/09/20 07:25 PM
hi Sandi,

Thanks a lot for the long reply. You are absolutely right, you are the only people who truly understand my situation and I have not done a good job listening to you. At the beginning I was always thinking of my W as the loving W I neglected. I have this strong conviction that she still loves me and this is what has driven me in many occasions to ask for a walk, or a coffee. How stupid I have been.

When I talk to her I try to listen and validate her feelings. Sometimes my voice catches a sad tone and she is quick to remind me how unattractive that is to her so I force myself to be calm and speak with strength. I never shout or interrupt her but she still saying things that I try to filter as hard as I can but sometimes still get me. Just the other day she said I was to blame for all that has happened (again) and that our family was broken forever. When I am alone at home I think, talking to her, even for validation, is a torture, why dont I just avoid it and give her more time?

At some point in my life I was very attractive, I have always been very good at uni/work, I love sports, I am a chatbox and I love going out and dancing. I look at myself in the mirror and I think, how can I get clingy and begging when I am in front of her? why do I allow her to tell me that she is sad for me but sure she has no feelings?

I will say this with my hurt, I do not try to use my children I just thought if there is a path to R is going to be through family activities and because of that I have put pressure on her with such plans. Again, mistake after mistake.

Just yesterday to finish what I thought was a great conversation by email she reminded me how on the 4th of Feb we are supposed to confirm the separation agreement in front of the judge. I calmly answered, "thanks for reminding me W, I wish you a nice day". She always brings that statement or attitude that reads "our marriage is dead" in big capital letters.

I guess I owe you (specially Sandi, Steve and FS) a big apology. You are the biggest help I have on times when my environment only tells me to move on and acknowledge a woman who has made this decision will firmly stick to it, and I have not listened to you as I should have. As I said on my last post, I am reading DR for the 3rd time, but this time I am making the concepts mine, for the better.

I know my 180 is going to be showing a happy and polite person when I exchange the kids AND being the first one to say goodbye. I want to ask, since I read yesterday about being surprising. What else can I do to catch her by surprise? what does she not expect? Would it be fine to make an innocent joke about her?

I have not listened to her because I was scared, I was scared to lose her, to end up in D, to bear the pain of seeing her with someone else, to miss the childhood of our baby. I never stopped to say, hey, remember that charming man you have always been? bring him back and be the greener grass. When my W said, I do not want to talk to you, I heard our marriage is over and my instinct was to act as if replying "no, not until I decide it is". I can only give her the best incentive to come back and I know that is only going to happen if I truly listen to her and you all.

Since this nightmare began, it has been 3 entire days now that I do not write to her. I never spy on her newly created IG with a new username and I have made a strong decision to not suggest more family plans as in I will be in the park feel free to join. I was reading the chapter about cheese-less tunnels and thinking, my God, this is so me.

I wish my W knew I now have a lot of new tools I am learning from you, I wish she knew I know R is slow, hard and only towards MR 2.0 but it is not my job to tell her. Let's hope one day she will see it. Please keep posting here, you guys are my oxygen. I will do the same, I am taking stage now and I need to monitor if my 180 works. If it doesnt, I will need help with new ideas!

thanks a lot! Paco
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/12/20 01:26 PM
hi all!

I am having a rough day today and really needed to come back here. It has been 6 days that I have maintained radio silence with my W except to talk to our children and not much has changed. She is still cold and limits our interactions to our S6 picking up and hanging up the phone to me.

I know it is a very short time and I need to stay strong but sometimes I have this big urge to listen to her voice or try to ask her how her day is going. When this happens I either go out for a run, dinner or grab DR and re-read chapters 5 and 6. I am much better when out with people and I am making a great effort to push my social life again but I still struggle to sleep peacefully and still have those terrible low moments when you can only cry in the shower.

Next week I will be in Chicago for work and I guess it will really help me get some fresh air and be away from my thoughts. I think about our last interaction and I feel great shame. I ended up asking my W if she was seeing someone or there was a chance I could get us back on track, she must truly think I am a [censored]. I have promised myself there won't be more of those low moments in front of her.

It is incredible how eating better, giving up alcohol and exercising can change your mood and attitude. When I talk to people I also find myself thinking about giving them full attention, following up with their messages and understanding what I can say to show I am interested and keep the conversation going. This is new to me and feels great, only sometimes I still find myself thinking in the old ways (what is the next thing I am going to say) but even then I identify it and think ok I just made one of my typical mistakes.

I know I have asked you all this a million times, but my W being in the state that she is towards me and the whole fight for the separation agreement coming up has me extremely worried. Even I was to see signs of her softening after I stopped smothering her, the plan is to go on, let the lawyer fight this fight for me right?

Every time I read DR I feel like I get more superpowers to fight for our M. As days go by I think less about what might she be doing or thinking but at the same time I think more and more about the new relationship I would like to develop with her. I feel really alone, I have got into the habit of calling my dad almost daily and I am rediscovering my love for him.

If you successfully implement a 180 and it does lead to a baby step, how long does it usually take? Michele talks about 2 weeks but I am not even going to see my W in the next 2 weeks.

Thank you all!

Paco
Posted By: neffer Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/12/20 02:54 PM
Hey Paco, just forget about time. It´s not easy, I know, but it´s an exercise you need to daily improve. Keep your own inner work and keep DB rules at sight: detach some more.

Use adversity in your favour, keep dark except for the children.

You need patience, BE pacient. It takes time for you, it takes time for her. How much? Who knows. All you know is you can´t sit waiting for it.

Stand strong there Paco.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/15/20 04:43 PM
Hi all! I am having a great week at work but an awful week with my DB. As you can imagine my W keeps being as cold and distant as she has been since she dropped the D bomb. I guess you guys are the only ones who can imagine how discouraging this is. I have met all these people from the office in Madrid that are great and socially is like I feel alive again, maybe you also know what I mean. I talk to new people, went to a big fat party yesterday and have began to laugh again regularly (sometimes I think how long before I start crying again like a little boy on of my private breakdows).

When I video call my children she disappears, puts them in a room and she is gone. She wrote to me about talking to my S the other day and I tried to get a friendly conversation on how the week was going. No answer and back to no talking to her. I have had days this week when I am starting to think seriously my M might be over forever. I am full of hope and optimism but it is such a dark time when you let those thoughts get a grasp on you. I have been reading about building back trust and the 5 love languages but it feels if she wont even look at me in the eyes, if she truly cannot stand seeing me, it is not the time for this.

I thought by the time we will be 3 months into living apart she would start to warm up towards me, how idiot I was. I have also tried to offer her my help in any children related issue but she keeps rejecting any interaction with me. I have been selfish, focused on money making and I lacked a lot as a husband but I have this deep belief I can and will eventually make it up to her. How sad for us and our family if she decided to remain cold for long enough to convince herself there is solution to our problems.

I am much more positive, practicing active listening and being humble but I am still living hell. There is no rush, I know the waiting will be worth it and I know permanent change takes time and effort. It is just that I read DR and apply the techniques (it has been over a week with no contact and LRT) and I wish I had that small feedback sign that tells me she is starting to slow down or at least noticing. I care about us so much I would wait years if that is what it takes, I cant help thinking why I have to put all the effort when she has beheaded our R.

I miss talking to her, having her when I come back home, seeing her cook with the children and the way she knows me better than anyone. I needed to tell someone that and I am sure my friends dont want to hear it. Thanks a lot guys!
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/15/20 06:03 PM
Firstly, hugs. My heart goes out to you. Secondly, three months is nothing. Do not expect too much from her or you. This process is long and hard, and in the end there is no guarantee. AS wrote a really useful timeline a long time ago which might be useful for you. If anyone has the link, could the paste here please. The takeaways (from memory) is that our spouses do start coming around, but they might never admit it, and even then, most LBS have already rebuilt their lives and are quite fine without them, thank you very much.

I've followed you through your sitch and you are getting some really good advice which I'll repeat here:

1. Your marriage is over. You need to accept that. This doesn't mean go out and sc**w the first woman who shows interest in you, but it does mean you have to start building a life without her. Base your plans on you and your children. Her needs are no longer your needs. Your decisions shouldn't be about "will this make her want to come back" but be about "is this best for me and my children
2. Stop all expectations - if you offer to help and she declines the offer, then she declines the offer. End of.
3. Stop ruminating on what if's, why's and the things you've lost. It is not helpful to you at the moment.
4. You are trying to show her your 180's. Trust me, she notices, but right now, she thinks it is all a ruse which makes her more resentful. This doesn't mean stop doing them. 180's are for you, not her.

There is a phrase over here that kind of fits well with your sitch ... "can do no right". This means no matter what you do she is of the mind frame that turns your actions/words into a negative. Ask for more time with the kids, you're hassling her, don't ask for more time with the kids, you're a neglectful father. If everything you do is wrong in her eyes, then you do what is right for you and the children.

Things that I think will have a positive impact on you (and are within your control). Take or leave as you will:

1. Meditation (will help with anxiety and letting go)
2. Gratitude journal (or even just listing out each evening things that happened that day that you are grateful for)
3. Set your intention each day and start it anew. Today I will start a conversation with two strangers. Today I will go to the gym. Today I will try that new restaurant.

No contact means no contact. Childcare logistics and financials only. Factual, business like and abrupt. She does not want to hear about your day. So stop talking about it with her.

The other thing I would say is you put your wife and marriage on a pedestal. No-one is that perfect. Stop looking at her and you through rose tinted glasses.

I'm sorry if this is harsh. I don't mean it to be.
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/15/20 06:25 PM
Great advice from FS Paco. You need to get busy. Ruminating and feeling sorry for yourself is not going to get you anywhere. Trust me. I know what you are going through. We all do. We’ve all been there. And most of us put off taking the advice on here because it was too hard and counterintuitive and very, very scary. And doing that only prolonged the nightmare we were living in. There IS life after your W. There IS!!! You just have to have faith and put all of your energy into getting YOU back. Stop worrying about what she is doing or not doing because you can bet she isn’t worrying or wondering about you. She doesn’t have to. She knows EXACTLY what you are doing and knows that you are most definitely Plan B. That is the WORST thing she can think about you as it leaves you solidly in limbo and her in the driver’s seat. Get back behind the wheel Paco!! (((HUGS)))
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/16/20 06:45 PM
hi both!

Thanks a lot for the support! Believe me I am trying to detach but it feels as if I have to keep this part of my brain focused on changing permanently that dark side of my that showed more and more often at home. That selfish person focused on making money and with the outburst of bad mood. What I am trying to say is that it does not feel as if ok the door is open and I am going to move on with my life. Instead it goes more like, we both failed therefore there are things of me I have to change and this is not like that time I stopped eating processed food, these are deep changes that go all the way into my perceptions of happiness and my role in the world.

I have a really good friend I write to every time I feel like contacting her. He keeps cheering for me to get to that business alike tone and contact attitude. I am getting there.

I am not going to be plan B for anyone, the only way we can make this work is with her full commitment and acknowledgement of the consequences this situation is having for both us and our children. In the same way that I fear D I fear the fact that time and distance will confirm it so I am trying to be consistent with my 180 so that at least my W can see that I respect her wishes and can have the kind of relationship she is demanding now. Sometimes I put too much pressure on me because I think the more she builds a life without me the harder it will be to give R a go. I am guessing that mentality does not help.

As I said I am serious about changing my mistakes and getting back in touch with myself but at the same time this also makes me think is the only way I can have a chance at saving my M at some point. I guess I am holding on to those times when she told me I was the problem and I had to change to think we will have a second chance and as you say that is an expectation I need to let go of.

I would love to somehow break her expectations for me, do something she would never expect and stop the hatred dynamics we are into. I just dont know how to do it, as you say, if I contact her it is pressure, if I go dark I am neglecting my children and becoming the fun parent...

Definitely the hardest thing I have ever had to do and yet the most important!

thank you all!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/16/20 11:18 PM
hi all,

I just talked to my W on the phone about next weekend with the children. She has been talking again about how she is giving up too much and how even my parents ask for too much time with the children. I tried to validate and remain calm, I told her our time with them is all that matters and not to speak to me like with the contempt that she does. After this she replied that since we dont have a relationship anymore I have no right to talk about how she speaks to me and for some reason she ended up shouting that our relationship is dead and nothing is ever going to happen between us and that it was me who destroyed everything.

Now I should be detaching and this should not hurt me but you all know how it feels. The person you love the most is there shouting to you that your relationship is dead, that she has a life of her own now and she threatens to never ever call you again. What is the point of going throw this? Why am I trying to protect something no longer exists?

My W is dead set on the fact that we have no future. It has been a week and a half of no contact, I thought she would have calmed down a bit since then, it seems I was wrong.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/17/20 04:56 PM
I just re-read my comment. I know 3 months is nothing, week and a half is a ridiculous amount of time but I had to sit there on the phone yesterday listening to how I have destroyed our married, reacted to our domestic separation in a way that she should have called the police and now I am harassing her. I really cannot understand where all this anger is coming from but wow, WOW!

My W ended up yesterday saying we will only communicate over the email, all will remain a legal proof and that she has evidence that last 4 times I did not manage to fly on thursday for visitation (for those of you who know my sitch my W left to south spain and we were living in Germany and I have my job still here and could only find direct flights on Fridays) that would be valid for her to gain sole custody. Again, do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do but WOW. Obviously she totally brought me down yesterday, I was a wreck of nerves after this conversation and I ended up going to the hotel room for a bath and to sleep. She needs to cool down and I need to detach further, there is trust to regain, relationship to renew or topic to speak about that would bring us closer. How can I best recover after this big pushback?

thanks a lot guys! GAL and LRT are on again!
hugs! Paco
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/17/20 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Paco_19
but I had to sit there on the phone yesterday listening to how I have destroyed our married, reacted to our domestic separation in a way that she should have called the police and now I am harassing her. I really cannot understand where all this anger is coming from but wow, WOW!


No. You didn't have to sit there on the phone.

"Excuse me, I have to go." Then hang-up.

People treat you the way you train them to. What ever possessed you to think that you HAD to sit there and take that.

She will never find you more attractive than when you are walking away.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/19/20 11:27 PM
Hi Steve,

Thanks a lot for the reply. Yes I understand what you are saying. I guess I am not in a position to do that yet but better get there asap. She begun the conversation by shouting I have called to speak so you listen to me and keep quiet. Yes this is very unfair so I always think about validation at this point and my mindset is, I will listen to her.

On a different subject I just spent a great weekend with my children, we went to the aquarium and I had lunch outside with them. I can tell S6 notices how I am much better. He keeps telling me he wants to spend more time with me and asking about the new house. From time to time he will remind me of some bad memories he has from our domestic separation all the fighting and how nervous and impatient I was with him. You think being rejected by your W is hard until you hear that from your children and see how low you fell. I had become a shadow at home and even my son noticed. Trust me this is motivation to change many things but at the same time makes me wonder if I have some kind of sick side that will continue to try and show up when I lower my guard and times are bad.

All these thoughts have me hung up on self improvement books. I do not know how to give my W more space. The only thing I can think of is literally and I mean literally moving on myself. I know we have talked a lot about how my M is dead and I need to change myself but it is hope on a future with her that keeps me going. If I cannot think of a better 2.0 M with her or hope that she can love me again how can I survive all her attacks. some days I think she is really trying to hurt me, I dont say this in a victim way I really mean the things she says are intentional. But I know the man I want to be, the future I want to fight for and where to find support (here!).

Tomorrow I fly back to Germany and a new week will begin. The woman that married me thinks if I send her a TM I am harassing her, I have to laugh because it sounds like a joke.

I have a big question today, is it good or bad to try and have deep conversations with my S6 about how he is living this? I feel like doing it but he gets playful as if trying to avoid the topic. I want to be there for him, I am just not sure if he is too young to directly talk about his feelings.

Thanks a lot! GAL + LRT
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/20/20 10:18 PM
hi all,

I have just arrived in Germany and needed to post because I am feeling like "?@%! I have spent like I said a great weekend with my children but I cannot help having feelings that they do not deserve a broken family and that I really screwed up. This gives me two things, the first is strength to be there for them and ensuring they feel they are worth of great love and attention and the second is motivation to keep looking into me for permanent change.

Yesterday the saddest thing happened. I was arguing with my mom because she keeps insulting my W and I have tried to talk her into how that does not solve anything and how determined I am to fight for my M. Anyway we got into a fight and I told her I would not speak to her for some weeks so that she can think about how serious I am about not tolerating that and my M and she started following me around in a bad mood trying to make me talk to her about how blinded I am to an imminent divorce. I dont know if that makes sense but the thing is that I did not like at all her behavior but I found myself identified on it as when we were living our domestic separation and I kept pushing my W to talk about us. I cannot go back in time but I have really messed up during our domestic separation. I have made the determination to stop any of that behavior and think intentionally about it when I see it crawling up inside me.

I do not see my W even to exchange visitation. She drops them at school, I pick them up, I drop them, she picks them up. I do not know if this is good or bad but it really feels like I have few opportunities to interact with her and when I do you have seen how dead set she is to destroy my self esteem and hopes for R. It has been 5 months since our domestic separation begun, a switch flipped on her head and our lives were changed and I still struggle with thoughts about it.

My S6 keeps telling me that he misses me and wants to spend more time with me. Maybe I did not fight hard enough for my M when we still were at home and signed too quickly that dreadful agreement. I remember my W used to tell me the only chance we had of a future together was if we had a good separation. Now I feel like I need to listen to her and give her what she wants, a polite relationship for our children.

My M is dead, I am working on myself but my W hates me right now. I dont fear divorce, I dont fear living alone, I just feel like the problems we had are not enough to break us apart this way. At least now that I see much better what I was doing wrong. Sometimes I think that staying faithful to our marriage and family now is the greatest love sign I can send her.

Thanks a lot guys for your answers and help! goodnight!
Paco
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/21/20 06:07 PM
Quote
Just yesterday to finish what I thought was a great conversation by email she reminded me how on the 4th of Feb we are supposed to confirm the separation agreement in front of the judge. I calmly answered, "thanks for reminding me W, I wish you a nice day". She always brings that statement or attitude that reads "our marriage is dead" in big capital letters.


Until things are determined in the separation, visitation with kids, etc., your emails should only be about scheduling for the children. Having a great conversation through email, may need to be placed on hold until later. Your W is too angry. She wants to lash out, and every time you attempt to extend the email into further conversation......it is going to trigger a negative emotion in her. It's as if she is on high alert status.......so you need to keep the emails short and simple.

The relationship between your mother and your wife is not good. I suspect that's why your W doesn't want to give your parents visitation time. The way I see grandparents having visitation time with the children (when there is bitterness with the WAS) should be figured into the total days/time for the spouse. In other words, let's just say that your W gets 182 days a year with the children, and you get the same amount of days. Your in-laws ability to see their grandchildren should be left up to your W, b/c their time would come out her 182 days. The same would apply for your 182 days. It should not be left up to your W as to how often the kids see your parents. She should not feel that she has to sacrifice any of her child time, in order to give your parents visitation. When you bring grandparents visitation into the middle of a messy separation......it only muddies the waters. When you have the kids, then you decide who gets to see them, and when it's on her time, she has the same right to choose who sees them.

You said your mother insulted your W. Did your mother express the insult to your W, or was she expressing it in your presence? If you become upset at your mother b/c she made an insulting comment about your W to you, it's b/c you still love your W. But your mother is not in love with your W. She sees your W hurting you, her son. The best way to handle this type of thing is to ask your mother to withhold her words b/c it is too upsetting for you. BTW
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/21/20 08:00 PM
Sorry, I did not realize part of my post went through before I made final changes. I missed the time slot to edit, so I will copy & paste my "redo".

Quote
Just yesterday to finish what I thought was a great conversation by email she reminded me how on the 4th of Feb we are supposed to confirm the separation agreement in front of the judge. I calmly answered, "thanks for reminding me W, I wish you a nice day". She always brings that statement or attitude that reads "our marriage is dead" in big capital letters.


Until things are determined in the separation, visitation with kids, etc., your emails should only be about scheduling for the children. Having a "great conversation" through email, may need to be placed on hold until later. That's not to say you should not be polite. Your W is too angry. She wants to lash out, and every time you attempt to extend the email into further conversation......it is going to trigger a negative emotion in her. It's as if she is on high alert status.......so you need to keep the emails short and simple.

The relationship between your mother and your wife is not good. I suspect that's why your W doesn't want to give your parents visitation time. The way I see grandparents having visitation time with the children should be figured into the total days of each spouse. In other words, let's just say that your W gets 182 days a year with the children, and you get the same amount of days. Your in-laws ability to see their grandchildren should not come by taking away your allotted time and giving it to them. Their time would come out her 182 days. The same principle would apply for your parents time coming out of your 182 days. It should not be left up to your W as to how often the kids see your parents when it's on your 182 days. Neither spouse should feel that they are sacrificing any of their 182 days, so that the in-laws have visitation time. Next thing you know, everyone wants a piece of the action.....aunts & uncles, next door neighbors...... smirk (JK) When you try to bring the grandparents allotted visitation into the middle of a messy separation......it only muddies the waters. When you have the kids, then you decide who gets to see them, and when it's on her time, she has the same right to choose who sees them. That's the only way to keep things fair, IMHO. Both of you are fighting to have control over how much time everyone has with the kids. This isn't about getting equal time with all the grandparents! Keep it as simple as you can.

You said your mother insulted your W. Did your mother express the insult to your W, or was she expressing it in your presence? If you become upset at your mother b/c she made an insulting comment about your W to you, it's b/c you still love your W. But your mother is not in love with your W. She sees your W hurting her son. The best way to handle this type of thing is to ask your mother to withhold her words b/c it is too upsetting for you. Don't punish your mother for loving her son and experiencing her own type of pain as a bystander in this mess. I'm not suggesting that you sit there and say nothing while your mother rages insults. You can always remove yourself. Do you think your parents would say something bad against your W in front of the kids? If so, then that could be a concern, and you may need to discuss it with your parents.

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I will say this with my hurt, I do not try to use my children I just thought if there is a path to R is going to be through family activities and because of that I have put pressure on her with such plans. Again, mistake after mistake.


What I meant when I said I thought you use them.......is that you create an opportunity to talk to your W or spend family activity, b/c of the kids. You pressured her and tried to make her feel she had to do it for the kids. Personally, I see it so much in LBS's that I wonder if they are blind to it.

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I know my 180 is going to be showing a happy and polite person when I exchange the kids AND being the first one to say goodbye. I want to ask, since I read yesterday about being surprising. What else can I do to catch her by surprise? what does she not expect? Would it be fine to make an innocent joke about her?


No, I do not recommend that you joke about your W. Her emotions are not in good place, so you making jokes about her......is not a good idea. Give me an example of how you joke about her, maybe I am not getting a clear picture. In the meantime, I suggest that you don't try to get a particular reaction from her. I'm concerned this desire to get a particular response is unconsciously tied to your need to control.

When a couple is experiencing a physical separation and their emotions are all over the place, the best 180 the LBS can do is to let go of applying pressure to the WAS. You see, the WAS senses when the LBS lets go, and therefore, the tension begins to settle. As I said, she is on high alert, and she knows you are trying anything to keep her tied to you. She knows when you are trying to manipulate her feelings. I support you showing a polite person who is in charge of his own emotions, and being the first to say goodbye (as if you have something exciting planed). This brings me to the part of showing happiness. Don't misunderstand and think you are suppose to act like a comedian or clown. smile For now, just show a positive attitude and it will naturally imply that you contain an inner "happiness" that does not completely rely upon her. Make sense? She may be curious, or not, as to why you suddenly act this way. Again, have no expectations.

The more intense 180's will be the inner work on yourself, b/c you don't like to be unattractive and you want to reclaim the man you once were. 180's can be very private work, which has nothing to do with the MR......other than you now see why you need to change some of your ways......especially in your interrelationships. ((hugs)) At the moment, you want to do all these things with the hope of impressing her to come back to the MR. It takes the LBS a little time before they finally let go of getting some positive reaction from the WAS, and just do the 180 b/c it is great for themselves.

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I have not listened to her because I was scared, I was scared to lose her, to end up in D, to bear the pain of seeing her with someone else, to miss the childhood of our baby. I never stopped to say, hey, remember that charming man you have always been? bring him back and be the greener grass. When my W said, I do not want to talk to you, I heard our marriage is over and my instinct was to act as if replying "no, not until I decide it is". I can only give her the best incentive to come back and I know that is only going to happen if I truly listen to her and you all.


We know you are scared. It's only natural to feel all type of emotions when you are losing your family. Currently, you are being honest with yourself and are able to take a hard look at your mistakes.

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Since this nightmare began, it has been 3 entire days now that I do not write to her. I never spy on her newly created IG with a new username and I have made a strong decision to not suggest more family plans as in I will be in the park feel free to join. I was reading the chapter about cheese-less tunnels and thinking, my God, this is so me.


That's progress!

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I wish my W knew I now have a lot of new tools I am learning from you, I wish she knew I know R is slow, hard and only towards MR 2.0 but it is not my job to tell her. Let's hope one day she will see it. Please keep posting here, you guys are my oxygen. I will do the same, I am taking stage now and I need to monitor if my 180 works. If it doesnt, I will need help with new ideas!


Again, this is not uncommon to want the WAS to see your hard work. The purpose of this board is to support each other and try to pass along something we've learned.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/27/20 11:10 PM
Hi Sandi,

Thanks again for coming by to my thread, it is always fantastic to be able to speak to you (hugs)! I just read about your health, hope you the best recovery and that it is only minor!

I do not need to have control over her, I have accepted she is a strong independent woman and I cannot decide whether she chooses me or not, I feel like there is more I can do to slow down her dynamics. I mean it with respect to the distance that there is between us now. I am here in a different country, she is there and I only get time with my S6 over video call. I keep thinking that it is the perfect situation to dig things back and never look again (for my W I mean).

Yes my W and my mom never had the best relationship. My mom never really let loose of me and my W takes that as a lack of independence on my side and a wish for her to interfere in my life. I have told my mom time and time to respect her but sometimes I just have to leave the room. I know she is hurting because she loves me but she should be a stone for me, not someone who tells me I am never going to get my W back, that I am ridiculous with my M books and similar things.

I have developed a sense of inner happiness again and I know I am not supposed to be a clown around her is just about feeling proud of the man you see in the mirror. I only asked those silly questions about the jokes because I have always been funny to her (at least when our R was great) and I could tell she enjoyed laughing with me. I went yesterday to the Porsche museum, being surrounded by all those racing cars (my greatest passion) was like a breath of fresh air, I took tones of pictures, looked into every corner of all the cars, touched some of them (Germans no like that) and I bought 3 books at the museum store. It was a great day to find myself again, I had stopped pursuing my passion for racing and that is a big part of my happiness. It is actually part of what attracted my W to me, having such a strong passion and determination to live it in my life was attractive to her and she told me many times.

Today has been the X day. My lawyer wrote to me to confirm contacting the one we used for our separation agreement and I gave her the green light. I need to talk to her but while I was having dinner with a friend I got 2 missed calls from my W. Innocently I asked if that was my son, I said I was busy and promised to call tomorrow. But I know that was her, I know. If I did not have enough with fighting a battle for my M now she is going to say again that I am unfair and selfish and that I should not move to the same country because we have no future and can never be happy together. I fear talking to her, I was having a low moment so I had to come and tell you all. I have only my books and I need help. If she comes in fury to me about the 2 lawyers, how should I react? what if she brings D back up? I want to tell her look I love you and want to R, I am doing this for the children and because I am moving back so we need to change it, but my feelings about our M remain firm.

I am living huge internal conflict. I am 100% confident I can fix my issues and with some cooperation we could have our M back but at the same time I know all is on her hands and I do not deserve a second chance after having hurt her repeatedly with my selfishness. I want our original relationship back and I want my children to have that as an example of a healthy marriage, but I feel like she will never open to me. I am becoming the man I want to be, I am maturing and starting to value the things that really matter in life, I know because my attitude towards other people, money and life is changing. I love this, why on earth did I not listen to her and come here and bought all the books I have earlier?

On the other side I put the phone aside while having dinner with my friend because I wanted to disconnect and it made me unavailable and unreachable to her, good point for my GAL and LRT!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/28/20 04:39 PM
hi all,

I am having another terrible day. I will talk to my lawyer later this afternoon but the feeling just does not go away. If someone could read my post above and give me some advice it would mean the world to me.

Thanks a lot and sorry to feel so needy, I really could use some support right now.

all the best!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/28/20 05:48 PM
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If I did not have enough with fighting a battle for my M now she is going to say again that I am unfair and selfish and that I should not move to the same country because we have no future and can never be happy together.


You make decisions based on your moral/religious standards. You do what you believe is right/fair. She is going to continue saying that you are unfair and selfish, b/c that has become her go-to statement about you. Even if she secretly knows that you are being fair, she will not change her mantra. Therefore, don't try to make her see you differently, b/c you can't make her do anything. If she says you are selfish and unfair and will never change, you simply reply with, "I'm sorry you feel that way".......and you let go of trying to convince her that you've changed. Otherwise, your focus is going to remain on your W's thoughts, statements, feelings, reactions, etc.

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I am living huge internal conflict. I am 100% confident I can fix my issues and with some cooperation we could have our M back but at the same time I know all is on her hands and I do not deserve a second chance after having hurt her repeatedly with my selfishness.


You have no power to change the past. You do have power to forgive yourself and to transform yourself into the man you want to become. Your changes have to be done without her and the M. I feel you want her to know everything you are working on, or have changed, b/c you believe it will help her give you another chance. However, this type of thinking actually holds you back from the growth you could accomplish. It's going to take more time for your W to see your positive changes b/c she doesn't want to see them at the moment. She would have to change her mantra!

You are not moving to another country for your WAW. You are moving there to be closer to your children.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/29/20 04:37 PM
hi Sandi,

Thanks a lot for your message. I guess is still strikes me to my bones that this can be the end. I want my family and my M back and I know for that I need to change, I also know the only way to change and grow is to become at peace with your past, your mistakes, the areas where you can/must grow and the fact that your happiness lies within you.

I am 100% up for the move because of my children, even if all things come to a D I will be there for them, in their lives, in their routine, having fun with them and helping when they need me. These 4 past months focused on my W and the separation feels like I have let myself drift away from the lives of my children. That is not me, no matter what happens they will know they have a strong father who will be there for their happiness and growth.

Turns out when W called me the other day was to tell me both C have a fever and need to stay with her mom. She has been polite I would say the last 2 times we spoke over the phone. Who knows, maybe me sacrificing my career and salary to be back in Spain counts as an act she appreciates. I dont know, I have no expectations and I do not want to celebrate this as a victory but I can for sure celebrate there has been no fury call about my lawyer stopping the juridical process. We are officially on hold until I am in Spain and can see the dynamics of my new job. smile

Day after day as I socialize more and more it feels as if she is not there in my life. Of course she is not but you all know what I mean, I guess this is the kind of healthy space she needs from me. I am wearing the ring, I have not contacted her since we had that terrible argument when I was in Chicago, I feel healthier than ever and able to change. Next goal, keep spirits up in front of W, I have still failed there so far.

Thank you all for the help and again GAL like a madman smile
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/30/20 08:32 PM
hi all,

I had a small victory today but I dont want to get too high on expectations so I will write it here and continue as if nothing happened. My W called me today to tell me the medication our little one is taking. I listened to all and focused 200% on what she had to tell me. Once she was finished I told her I need to pick up the keys from our old house that she kept and asked to go for a walk this weekend. She replied that she will be out all weekend (better than the old I am not going to see you), I said I understood wished her a good day and hanged up.

Minutes later she wrote to me to tell me some details and I made the mistake of asking if she would be up for early dinner out today. She read it, ignored it as always, I was ready to distance myself again and continue my LRT when minutes later she replied "today I cant". I thanked her and wished her a good weekend and good rest.

Now I know she did not say yes, I should have not said a word about meeting and she might still be very angry with me. But the thing is that to me the fact that she answered is a baby step, how sad but true! It has been 12 weeks since she left home and I thought by now she would be much more calm. I am giving her space to the point that she is not in my life and I am not in hers and I guess that is "working".

Again, no expectations and getting ready for the worst I just felt like I needed to share it. Finally I am starting to listen to you guys, finally I am starting to see the man I want to be when I look into the mirror and my goal is to be the man any woman would be a fool to leave behind. I could not imagine I needed the space and time as much as she does to really make changes happen. Thank you all, I will keep posting and working on myself.
Posted By: BenB Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/31/20 11:12 AM
You really shouldn´t suggesting going for a walk or dinners. My W, even when things were at their worst agreed to all these dinners I suggested and I was too blind to see how that was considered pursuit. Sandi tried explaining this too me and I wish I would have stopped immediately then. Now is not the time for you to do any of that.

I too thought that by my W wanting to be near me, that was a positive sign but all it meant was my W was trying to keep me hooked as plan B. Plus she actually enjoyed eating good food and letting me pay for it. How do you think that made me look in her eyes? She is completely disrespecting me and I reward her by offering her fancy dinners and quality time with me?

The day I had enough, when I made it clear I am moving on with my life and I have no time for someone who doesn´t want to be with me, that is the day her behavior changed.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/31/20 01:21 PM
hi Ben,

Yes I always have this plan B thoughts when I see some light and they really hit my confidence and self esteem but in case we were to meet believe me is not going to be a fancy place. I am very sure her love language is quality time and despite it might not be the time I would want to make it all about that if the opportunity shows up.

I am on the same mindset. I have no time in my new life for a person that does not want me to be part of hers but I dont want us to be out of any R chance because of her decision to remain prideful or stubborn. I dont know, she would never be like that, maybe she is now, I dont know her anymore.
Posted By: BenB Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/31/20 04:34 PM
My W love language is/was physical touch. But that was when things were fine between us. After BD none of that matters. I´m not even saying that your W is trying to keep you as plan B by giving you the signs you consider perhaps to be baby steps but she most definitely doesn´t want the pressure of your pursuit.

Even if things get better between you and she starts reaching out again, you shouldn´t be suggesting dinners. Doesn´t matter if it´s a fancy dinner or not. It could be McDonalds, you are still showing her by your behavior that you will be there for her if she ever decides she wants you back. For me, the real test began when my W went from being this dark, unrecognizable monster to more of what she used to be. She enjoyed spending time with me again. And I thought things were going to work out. We event went to Paris for a weekend and had so much fun. It was when I came home that I realized she´s just trying to keep me on the hook. How do I know? Because despite months of us hanging out, going for walks, weekend trips and dinners, there still was no intimacy!

A few of the vets have posted this and it couldn´t be more true - You are never as attractive as when you walk away. She wants space? Give her space.

It seems by your previous post that you think you can somehow do something about her decision to remain prideful and stubborn. That if you don´t do something, it will hurt your chances of R. The best thing you can do for yourself is to detach and focus on yourself.
Posted By: FlySolo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 01/31/20 07:19 PM
Paco,

You have to stop asking her to do things with you, no matter how small or unromantic they seem to you. It just gets you into a tither (look at how excited you are just because she said "today I can't). You are reading into things that don't need to be read into. This is not a small victory. This is her being polite.

I look back on the last 18 months, and I know that when my H was nice to me it was either because he thought I was slipping away, or because things were going well in his life. He was dating and texting other women while he was doing me favours like tidying up the garden, giving me lifts, and generally being nice to me. And I would say to myself, see he, is being nice to me. Maybe he is thawing. But he wasn't. He was just scared of losing me or things were going well in his life and he thought he had the wool over my eyes.

I am not saying that is what your W is doing. I am just saying that not everything is always as they seem. Focus on you. Leave her to her. She will find her way, and if she wants to come back she will.

You may think you are listening to us, but you aren't. You are still allowing her actions and words to dictate your actions and words.

How are the kids? Are you any closer to moving closer to them?
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/01/20 12:26 PM
hi Ben, FS,

wow the saddest thing about reading your comments is that almost all the things written in this board are or come to be very true. Yes I looked back at myself and thought how sad it is I got excited about her replying to my message. I do not think about plan B and those things is just that always when she seems polite I remember all the advice on this board about not jumping back when she shows interest or becomes softer so I had to lift off the throttle and get back to LRT and working on me.

It is being a terrible weekend, as you say, look at me she just replies a TM to say I cant and I get all excited. how sad. In about 3 weeks I have the moving with my company, they will come pick everything up and then I have 5 extra holidays to set up myself here.

The children are both sick this weekend, again, hahaha I am like a nurse when I am here in Spain. But we are having fun. I can tell they miss me and love having time with me and that always recharges my batteries.

I have made a list of fears I have that are preventing me from fully moving on:

> I fear never having my family back
> I fear having someone else raising my children
> I fear that my W is never able to let go and forgive what happened these years
> I fear losing contact with the lives of my children
> I fear never being able to bring attraction and her feelings back

I know is good to be aware of these but also I need to figuratively take them on my hands and drop them on the floor to be able to fully move on with confidence. Am I supposed to behave as if I could not care less about her? Even when she told me I was the problem and I had to change? I appreciate all your help guys, I will take your words and try to keep them alive in my head. You have made 2 great points, our R is unique and we cannot compare and I am making a huge mistake by reading where there is nothing to be read. Thanks a lot to all of you. Please keep posting, as I always say, you are the only ones who can understand the marathon I am going through.

hugs,
Paco
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/05/20 09:42 PM
hi all,

had a bad day yesterday, one of my wisdom teeth is pushing out and I could not sleep all night. Worst thing is I spent hours thinking about all the things my W told me home during our domestic separation. The way she started hiding her life from me and telling me things as that I am not the one she wants to be hugged by. I know I cannot fall into these thoughts but it was just a rough night and I ended up feeling broken and discouraged. Then I remembered rule 33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

I spoke to my children again today, both are cured from the bad flu they had. This means I got sick but also managed to get them back on track and that makes me happy. I have almost everything set for the move to Spain and I keep going out to build that social life without her but oh boy this is hard. I have started wearing my ring again, my friends find it pathetic but I do not care and sad as it sounds I still havent fully accepted my marriage is over (I am working on that) but at least the space I am giving her is again as if there was an ocean between us.

When I get back to Spain I am going to take my children costume shopping and I plan to throw a party for the new house there just with the two of them. I see no progress in my W but I will keep doing my thing.

thank you all
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/06/20 05:59 PM
Glad you are feeling better, Pack. Old behavior patterns are hard to break, but you have to keep training yourself to a different behavior.

Every time you have the desire to ask your W to take a walk with you, or go out to dinner, or have a chat........you must remember this is pressure on her. Every time you ask her to give you a few moments with her, you might as well place yourself back to day one of the separation. Okay? Stop pursuing your W! Write it on the inside your eyelids. smile
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/07/20 03:31 PM
hi Sandi! thanks a lot for coming back, as always! smile I hope you are fully recovered now! I keep coming back and forth back and forth. This is a nightmare.

I have stopped biting my nails, I am in much better shape and I practice active listening with anyone I talk to but then these days come and I end up wanting to call her when I am back in Spain to see the children just to test the waters. I have never felt so alone in my entire life. I am in a country I came for work and with my family, in a city where every corner reminds me of them and I have no strong support here. I spent 2 hours yesterday at home watching old top gear episodes (my fav tv show) and that felt ok but I quickly trigger alarms in my head saying no escape mechanisms as TV Paco! Get out and get a life.

Being at home is the worst feeling of loneliness ever, I am there and my head is playing back the words she said during our domestic separation: "this is our home only because YOU wanted to"...

God knows I dont want to go back to our old R because it was rotting with time and lack of dedication but I never thought she would leave and take our children. When I think is been 3 months since she left I calm down but them I think it has been 6 since she told me it was over and then I think "how on earth is she not more calm down and talks to me about this hell we are living??"

I know I am here for the long run and it has been my decision to try and revert her decision the only way it is possible but I am starting to believe that for my W it will be very easy to be happy without me given the way she has kicked anything that reminds her of me out of her life while I am the stupid one that gets stuck behind. I am no victim, make no mistake there, I just value our family more than anything now and it shocks me she does not the same.

thanks a lot for all your help! hugs Sandi!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/10/20 03:51 PM
hi all!

things are back to space and time with W. I talked to her last Saturday because our S6 is still a bit sick with this super resilient flu that is taking over Spain and she told me she is not ignoring me but the thing is that I do not listen to her, I do not know what she means. I assured her I was making my best to listen to every word that comes from her given the very little contact we have and resumed to GAL and LRT thinking about my life without her.

The legal procedure is officially on hold but we have 60 days now to present an alternative to the separation agreement that has been officially rejected. I know this is only my selfish and unrealistic goal but I would like to, at some point and as one of those say it only once things, tell her my wish is for us to at some point work on the R and stop the legal procedure even if I have to provide her with the pension we agreed. Would that make me a doormat or a sincere husband who has not given up on this M? Is it something stupid to do? if not, how would you approach it?

Again, after the encouragement I got from this board I am not afraid of being divorced, heck I am not afraid of being alone either, I just want to be 100% involved in the lives of my children but I want to pass on that message to my W. I know, she already knows I am ready to work on our M. God this situation is so twisted, I want to be attractive again, I want to be happy on my own and heal emotionally but if by any miracle there is a chance for us to R in the future I also want it to be asap. No, I am not in a rush, I have nothing better to do now than to get rid of my flaws and being happy but I want to be with my children again. I guess if someone is going to understand the mess in my head now is you guys. I want to be attractive again, my very finest and best version, but I want my children to have me there and no is not entirely on my hands because I have a W in between who hates me now and seems to thing the children is something that she exclusively cares about.

thanks a lot for your help, when I finish reading Light her fire I am going to pick up DR again for a 4th time, I need more strength and support to keep going alone and accepting my M is over as I knew it (which is good believe me, M 2.0 is the goal now!)
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/11/20 09:02 PM
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I have stopped biting my nails, I am in much better shape and I practice active listening with anyone I talk to but then these days come and I end up wanting to call her when I am back in Spain to see the children just to test the waters.


Remember when I talked to you about using your children as an avenue to get closer to your W? This is an example of what I meant. As the LBH, you shouldn't test the waters, b/c it is a form of pursuit and your W feels the pressure.

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I think "how on earth is she not more calm down and talks to me about this hell we are living??"


Do you mean you want her to give you some type of explanation for why she left you? She may never speak in terms that you understand or accept. I get the sense that she feels she told you, but you did not listen. I've read stories from LBH's who needed an explanation, but never received it. If your W stops feeling pressure from you, maybe she will talk about why she left.

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things are back to space and time with W. I talked to her last Saturday because our S6 is still a bit sick with this super resilient flu that is taking over Spain and she told me she is not ignoring me but the thing is that I do not listen to her, I do not know what she means.


Perhaps you lead the conversation around to the relationship. Although you called about your sick child, maybe you directed the talk toward you & her. Only you know, but if this is happening whenever you contact her........you must stop asking questions or making remarks about it.

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The legal procedure is officially on hold but we have 60 days now to present an alternative to the separation agreement that has been officially rejected. I know this is only my selfish and unrealistic goal but I would like to, at some point and as one of those say it only once things, tell her my wish is for us to at some point work on the R and stop the legal procedure even if I have to provide her with the pension we agreed. Would that make me a doormat or a sincere husband who has not given up on this M? Is it something stupid to do? if not, how would you approach it?


No, please don't do that ^^^^^^^. Listen Pack, your W doesn't feel that she is being heard. So, she doesn't want to hear you proclaim your desire to work on the R. She doesn't want to hear any more about how you feel or what you want. Why? B/c she is very angry and she'll see this tactic as further emotional pressure. She might play you and accept the financial terms, but she will see you as a weak, desperate man.......and she will build higher walls between you. It's not the route to take. I've already shared my thoughts on how to approach this situation.

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Again, after the encouragement I got from this board I am not afraid of being divorced, heck I am not afraid of being alone either, I just want to be 100% involved in the lives of my children but I want to pass on that message to my W.


No, Pack. Your motivation is wrong. If it was all about you being involved with your children, then your love for them would be your motivation. You wouldn't have a need to pass that message to your W. It's the same about showing the spouse 180's. Some newcomers aren't too interested in making personal changes for their own good, b/c they simply want their spouse to see the change. I understand that viewpoint, but it doesn't last when the motivation is all about persuading the spouse back into the M.

Here's what I've gathered about your MR. You relied on your words to influence her into doing what you wanted her to do. In spite of the advice, you've continued to use your words to force her to go back into the M. Maybe you have not seen it as "force", but it is felt as if is force. Even saying something in a nice way can be received as pressure, if you continue saying it time after time. It's like a man asking a woman for a date, although she has continued to refuse him. After a while, she dreads hearing his voice. If the other person will not listen or receive your words, it can cause more problems than if you gave space and time. After an unsuccessful discussion, I think you tell yourself that it's back to space and time.....until you have another moment where you just have to contact her again.

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God this situation is so twisted, I want to be attractive again, I want to be happy on my own and heal emotionally but if by any miracle there is a chance for us to R in the future I also want it to be asap.


Everyone wants what they want ASAP. Life doesn't work that way. You don't have to live with your W and/or kids to become attractive again. Use this time to make changes in you (not the marriage).

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thanks a lot for your help, when I finish reading Light her fire I am going to pick up DR again for a 4th time, I need more strength and support to keep going alone and accepting my M is over as I knew it (which is good believe me, M 2.0 is the goal now!)


The 4th time? You should have it about memorized by now. smile Excluding DR, there are a lot of books written about how to spice up the MR. There are many great books that show us where we failed to apply certain things our spouse may have needed. These books can fire up our enthusiasm and we can't wait to try the things the book suggested. No matter how great the book, if the timing is wrong........the application is usually unsuccessful. Timing is everything. Your MR is in crisis, so some information will need to be stored in your brain until the time is right. Use this time to store up lots of information, just bear in mind how important right timing is to application.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/13/20 09:57 PM
Hi Sandi!
Thanks a lot for your reply again. I do not know what is wrong with me seriously. My W did mention in many occasions that we argued a lot and she was not happy and I retreated. I was an idiot but I also never heard hey thanks a lot for working hard for our family, we had our first son when we were 22 and I was the only working. I was talking to a good friend the other day and she said, I know you have made mistakes, but you have also done many good things, see the whole picture, go to Madrid and be happy there.

I dont know if I deserve what is happening but crying at home every other day is not the best place to be when you want to be attractive again. It's been 6 months, seriously, is it just better to move on and leave the door open? I am much better when I am far and I do not care about what she is doing, I come close try to see her and I get contempt and ignorance. Why would a woman marry you and give you 2 children to now behave like this?

I am having a bad day and I guess I need to vent out. Sandi, help me please. I now you have said it before and I have read my thread 3 times already now. how do I stop worrying about time? do I need to accept all is over and this is dead unless she might choose to save it? I am changing many things in me, for me and my future. As my friend said, Paco your marriage is in crisis, it is a very ugly one, but it is crisis, learn to think about other things.

What do I do about the separation? fight for a new agreement with lower pension or ask for shared custody, my God I have 1 month in the new job to test how often I can be here with them.

Sandi, I know you are harsh because you want me to succeed, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. I am not a bad man, I have no bad habits or dependencies and I just want my family back. Maybe I need a new 180, look ahead and say, there is no time in my life for those who dont want to be there.

why is this so incredibly hard and why does she put all that space between us, we dont even see each other to exchange the children, is all done via the school. It is just sad... Thank you all, I guess beyond my PIES, I need to change many things towards my W as well.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/14/20 08:49 PM
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My W did mention in many occasions that we argued a lot and she was not happy and I retreated. I was an idiot but I also never heard hey thanks a lot for working hard for our family, we had our first son when we were 22 and I was the only working.


I don't remember thanking my H for working hard (being the provider) for our family, b/c the way he and I were raised......it was expected that the man/husband/father makes income for his family. To be fair, the only time I was not in the workforce, was when I took time off to have babies. I never remember him thanking me for going back to work in order to have sufficient income for our family. Neither of us were looking for thanks, b/c we just had to do what we could to survive and raise our family. I've since learned that one of the top needs for a man is to be appreciated. He wants his W to express to him how much she appreciates him for all that he does for her and their family. Maybe your young W was somewhat like me in my early MR. Maybe she did not realize she should show you appreciation.....or perhaps, she was trying to show her appreciation in ways you did not recognize. Maybe she just thought you both were doing what was expected for your roles. I'm not saying it was right, b/c both men and women like to feel appreciated, whether they work long hours away from home, or take care of the children & home. Currently you are suffering and your thoughts reflect on the past. If only foresight was clear as hindsight, yes? Pack, learn from past mistakes, and don't repeat them. We can't change the past, only do better in the present.

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I dont know if I deserve what is happening but crying at home every other day is not the best place to be when you want to be attractive again.


I don't see divorce as something anyone "deserves". It is what it is! It doesn't mean everything is your fault, or that you deserve what is happening. Recognize your mistakes, and be smarter going forward.

You have been stuck in your style of thinking. You don't apply the advice, b/c you won't let go of your old style where you believe you can verbally persuade your W to reconcile. Be honest, Pack, you thought with enough pursuit, she would break under the emotional pressure and come back. You knew of no other way to get her back, and that's why you continued trying to talk to her about the relationship. As long as you hold to the belief that she can be talked back into the MR.......you will not digest these books you are reading. That's why you are reading DR four times, and it has not stuck. You won't let go of believing your way is the only way that works. Nobody can get through to you, and they can't help you, until you give up your familiar pattern. It is a big stumbling block for you. The entire you may be reading a different way to deal with the situation, you have that block that wants you to do what you've always done with a woman...........pursue, pressure, keep pursuing. Am I making sense? I can't help you if I am not speaking in a way that is understood.

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It's been 6 months, seriously, is it just better to move on and leave the door open?


Frankly, I think that's what you will have to do, in order to save your sanity and have hope that you can be happy again.

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I am much better when I am far and I do not care about what she is doing, I come close try to see her and I get contempt and ignorance.


Why do you think we tell you to detach? What have I told you over & over? Stop trying to talk to her! The relationship with her is over. Now, it is about your children. Get a visitation schedule and stop trying to get her to take walks with you, or having long conversations that eventually lead to R talk. There is no sense in all this contact with her. She is angry. You are angry! Stop getting close!

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Why would a woman marry you and give you 2 children to now behave like this?


She was a different woman back then. She changed. It is fact that you cannot control. She does not want your control anywhere in her life.

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I am having a bad day and I guess I need to vent out. Sandi, help me please. I now you have said it before and I have read my thread 3 times already now. how do I stop worrying about time? do I need to accept all is over and this is dead unless she might choose to save it?


The marriage relationship you had with her is over. (((hugs))) Who knows what the distant future holds? The message I have tried to give you is that you cannot control how she feels, and you haven't accepted that you can't persuade her. I believe she has to be completely free of you. Free of your presence, free of hearing your voice, free of seeing you, free of your overbearing pressure. There has to be freedom, space, and time......for her, and for you. Each of you need to heal separately. Let go of her. Mourn the loss of the M. It's been six months and you aren't better b/c you didn't let her go. I hope you will, now. It isn't what you wanted, and I understand. But you can't control it. Therefore, you have to get healthy again. You have to find you who you are as a man, and that means you do it on your own...........apart from her. I think it needs to be apart from a new woman, b/c you don't have to have a woman to define you. I see too many LBH's jump right into a rebound relationship with a new girlfriend, and he's not even over his W. Once you are single, I'm not suggesting you never go out and date again. I'm just saying you need to heal and find yourself before getting into another romantic relationship.

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I am changing many things in me, for me and my future. As my friend said, Paco your marriage is in crisis, it is a very ugly one, but it is crisis, learn to think about other things.


I agree. You may never have another time in your life where you are this free to enjoy the things you love to do, without having to answer to a wife. It's all in how you look at it. I've suffered crisis, and I've suffered loss. I've learned that we are seldom "delivered" from the fallout, emotional pain, etc. We have to feel the hurt, and work our way through it. We have to make the daily choice to do things we don't feel like doing, but know it will get us from the current hell we are experiencing, to a tolerable place........maybe even experience great happiness again. Will it ever be the same way as in the past? I don't think so, b/c life is ever changing, but that doesn't mean it can become wonderful again. The living have to keep on living, and you are still alive, Pack. Hurting, but still alive. You will come through the fire that's burning a hole in your heart.

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What do I do about the separation? fight for a new agreement with lower pension or ask for shared custody, my God I have 1 month in the new job to test how often I can be here with them.


I've already expressed what I thought you should do. Don't fight her from getting a separation or divorce, if that's what she wants. Fight for equal custody and equal visitation with the kids. I won't get into the subject of grandparents, b/c I've already talked about it. Their time comes out of the parent's time. Listen to the legal advice of your lawyer. You have fought this more like you were fighting the separation/divorce. Just do what is fair about the kids, and if she is too greedy, then let your lawyer fight your case in court.

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Sandi, I know you are harsh because you want me to succeed, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it. I am not a bad man, I have no bad habits or dependencies and I just want my family back. Maybe I need a new 180, look ahead and say, there is no time in my life for those who dont want to be there.


Like I previously said, before there can be a future MR with her.........you have to let go of her. The old MR is over. You and your kids are your family now. You have to stop mentally including her, when you consider "family". I know, I sound crazy, but I don't know how to put it into better terms. It's not what you wanted, and it's not the best........but it is all you can do at this time. You must adapt to her not being part of your life, so that you can heal. Even if she moved back with you today......do you think everything would be fine? Do you think you would instantly be healed? No! It just doesn't work that way. She must have a long time to find herself, and it needs to be without you. The more you try to be in her life at this time, the less likely she will ever get over her anger......and the less chance the two of you will even be on friendly terms in the distant future. Currently, don't even try to be friends. Okay? It won't work, and you need to cut all emotional ties with her. Just keep it civil, and business.

Well, I feel like I am going in circles repeating myself. Saying too much, isn't necessarily saying it clearly.

((hugs))
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/21/20 05:17 PM
hi Sandi!

I am back, well the reason why you feel like going in circles is because I am as stubborn as a brick with another brick stuck to it! I get your message, believe me I do, and you cannot imagine how much it means to me (((hugs))).

I dont think I will persuade her with words and pressure is more like I have behaved like a trader in the sense of hey, I am changing, why wont you give me an opportunity? I have read DR but my understanding was completely wrong. I told myself, if I can change, if I can get rid of the things she has complaint over and over and be the most loving, independent and strong man, I will have a chance with her. I was focusing my changes on getting her back, over and over again.

Last weekend I was in Spain, it was the 10 year anniversary from our first serious date, when I took her to some roman ruins close to our city and then out for lunch. I wanted to see her and tell her about marriage 2.0 on the ruins on the one I shattered. After my selfish me planned to see her, I tried to call her and guess what, yes I got more ignorance, contempt and fury. We spoke on the phone, again she told me to listen and not talk and she said she thought there was nothing to repair between us and that I was not giving her space. I went back to Germany broken because of some stupid expectations I built myself. I am constantly listening to the book Many separation survival on my phone and the first thing the author says is, have no expectations, a bad interaction is expected, a good one is a surprise not to get excited about.

On the good side I made her a valentine card from the kids where they wrote what a good mom she is, my S6 told me how much she liked it. I am glad I could give her something to make her happy, no ulterior motives. I bought animal costumes for both my S6 and S1 as well as myself and we plan to throw a party in the new house the day I move all the furniture. They are thrilled!

The fact that we are separated and she told me I was the problem and I had to change has made me hang up to our marriage for good. I keep making mistakes in my mindset and I keep trying to see her or meet her. I have made many mistakes, but I have also made changes in myself physically, emotionally and spiritually and I want to be happy with her if possible.

Starting today, there will be no more attempts to call her, meet her or talk to her, I will spend many days at home crying for the loss of my M but I deserve a woman who loves me for all I am and not a person who keeps telling me that I am harassing her. I will build a life for me and my children and I will exclude her from it, and I will be happy as a single man and I will become a man that I can look at the mirror to with pride. I will love my two sons above everything and more than anyone will ever do and I will be social, open and fun. My posts in this wall will go from being focused on her and her reaction to be focused on my healing and my changes.

I have started struggling to sleep 8 hours again, I think I put a lot of pressure on myself and getting a positive interaction with her, what an idiot I have become. I need to rewrite my DR goals, because many of them are focused on us going on a date or having a better relationship. I am happy in front of her and I try to avoid arguing but I dont need goals that help me detach.
Here is a first list:

> Learn to play piano
> Be more present with my children
> Promote at the new job
> Muscle up a little bit
> save up for the car I always wanted

Thanks a lot and as I always say please keep posting! your messages mean the world to me!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 02/28/20 10:42 PM
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I get your message, believe me I do, and you cannot imagine how much it means to me (((hugs))).


Thank you. I feel you either choose to do things your way, or you fail to trust the DB process.

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Last weekend I was in Spain, it was the 10 year anniversary from our first serious date, when I took her to some roman ruins close to our city and then out for lunch. I wanted to see her and tell her about marriage 2.0 on the ruins on the one I shattered.


Please explain what part of Rule #5 do you not understand? How many times have we told you to stop trying to get her alone with you, and to stop talking to her about the relationship? Talking about Marriage 2.0 is simply giving yourself an excuse to continue doing the same pursuing behavior. The actions above would be heavy pressure, and adding a digit at the end does not change anything. You are still talking about having a MR. It is all in vain, until she wants to have a R with you.

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After my selfish me planned to see her, I tried to call her and guess what, yes I got more ignorance, contempt and fury. We spoke on the phone, again she told me to listen and not talk and she said she thought there was nothing to repair between us and that I was not giving her space.


Exactly.

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Starting today, there will be no more attempts to call her, meet her or talk to her, I will spend many days at home crying for the loss of my M but I deserve a woman who loves me for all I am and not a person who keeps telling me that I am harassing her. I will build a life for me and my children and I will exclude her from it, and I will be happy as a single man and I will become a man that I can look at the mirror to with pride. I will love my two sons above everything and more than anyone will ever do and I will be social, open and fun. My posts in this wall will go from being focused on her and her reaction to be focused on my healing and my changes.



Great! Just let me clarify something. It's true we can tell when a LBS truly begins to detach and stops focusing so much on the WAS. However, if you still struggle with the sitch, it's perfectly okay to talk to us about it. That's why you are here, to talk about whatever bothers you.

I think whenever she dashes your plans, the pain carries you into proclaiming what you will and won't do anymore. It's like an emotional outlet. Eventually, the longing for your W outweighs the recent pain she caused, and so you go into another detailed plan of how to create an opportunity to approach her about giving you another chance. ((hugs))

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> Learn to play piano
> Be more present with my children
> Promote at the new job
> Muscle up a little bit
> save up for the car I always wanted


Okay, now decide the steps to take in order to achieve these goals. smile
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 03/05/20 08:45 PM
What's going on, Pack? Hope to hear from you soon.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 03/19/20 05:18 PM
hi Sandi, all!
Hope you are all safe with the covid situation. I have not written in a long time because of some big changes going on here. I finally moved back to Spain, I got a lot of paperwork closed in Germany, bills, banks, house and so on and on. I drove to Spain on what was a very fun road trip with a temporary reg plate that meant I got asked some questions when crossing borders!

Back in Spain I had to setup the new house, buy furniture for the kids bedroom and in parallel settle down in Madrid and the new office. I had only been there for a week when the covid took over Madrid and I was sent to work from home so I traveled to where my W and children live and I have been there since (at my secondary home, only getting out to go to the supermarket and taking the trash out!)

So since the covid situation started I have been busy trying to get some order at home, work and in my personal life. the closure of schools meant I got many days with my children at home and it has been crazy! They want out naturally but you cannot go out and there is a time when they need to burn down all that energy even if it is running inside the house. Great news is the little one (S1) started walking here with me and it was fantastic to be there now that I have all these doubts about my future and if I will ever manage to reconcile and get my family back. A part of me was broken thinking that my W was missing it but I cannot do more to show her the door is open.

I stopped talking about us, I am focusing on myself right now and getting better at exercising and reading some books now that we have all this free time in curfew. I did have a massive step back one day I wrote some accusative pm to my W and she used the next time we saw each other to tell me I was never going to fix this, she used sarcasm to express I had not been able to save the M in 10 years and she said I have been taught I can get anything I want and therefore my insistence in fixing our marriage. I apologized for the unfortunate messages and I realized how cold and distant she is from me. She denies it but I truly think she hates me, I feel it is sad she thinks my attitude is a mistake and she cannot see the effort I am putting to change my defects. There is nothing I can do there I guess.

No more progress with my lawyer, I need to see after the covid how I can schedule my life between Madrid and hometown and then ask for more custody according to that. I have sad days, I still cry in the shower and I re-read my thread here. As you can imagine all my friends and family are pushing me to move on, but I have a better plan. One that involves strength and suffering but one that will prepare me for the future, whatever that looks like for my family. I know she is not happy, one cannot be happy when you have so much hatred and blame against another person so I am giving her distance from me and I pray every night that she will see there is happiness and fulfillment in our family.

I am working now for a new certification I need at work to be able to promote and I am about to take back the piano course I purchased in Munich. I am also focused on saving money to pay back to my parents all the money they invested in refurbishing the house I have now here for me and the children. My goals have moved from how can I go back to our R when we started dating to how do I become the man I always wanted to be, a man that cannot be shaken by all the contempt and rejection from his W and at the same time the best father on earth. I am not even close to 50% emotionally healed, so I still need you guys. I never thought separation, divorce or whatever is it that I am living could take this long and be this hard. I hope you are all doing great, is fantastic to be back and with new goals.

hugs! ((()))
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 03/19/20 09:47 PM
It's really good to hear from you. I had a feeling you were very busy. You sound better.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 03/31/20 11:23 PM
hi Sandi! First of all, thanks for knocking at the door, you are my float these days as I am sure you know. Yes it has been all in one go! I have been busy with the house, I still have some problems to close in Germany and the covid has started in parallel with my first project in the new role (I can work remotely).

Now that I have more time I am back reading the board, to be honest I do not comment on other threads because I still see myself as a very poor DBer, probably one of the worst. As I said last time I got a chance to see my W things were horrible. She only talks to me about money, complains that our S6 is misbehaving and even if I seat to talk to her she still makes moves away from me as if I wanted to hug her or similar... this is destroying me inside. I cannot believe this transformation. The last pearl I had to hear was that because I am focused on something I can never fix I am also going to destroy the lives of my children. I dont know if I can add this one to the list of things I have to let go or take it seriously.

It has been 8 months and there has not been a single change in her cold and resentful position. I feel lonely, more than anyone can imagine. On the one hand you are holding on to a R with a person who seems to only want to hurt you and on the other hand you dont want to go out and just hang out with the first one that shows interest. I guess the only people who will understand that are here.

I need to go to bed now but I will come back, read other threads, be more active and post about my situation! Thank you all!
Posted By: BenB Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/02/20 09:12 AM
Paco, hang in there. 8 months is not a long time when it comes to this.

I rarely comment on other people´s threads as well. Sometimes only when I can offer words of encouragement or give advice for something that has worked for me.

The one thing I can say is that I have changed my perception when it comes to difficult things happening to me. For example, first time I saw my W on the street with another man. That had been my biggest fear and I was hoping I never got to see that. But I did, and you know what? I survived and as a result, it made me stronger mentally.

So anything bad that happens, I welcome it these days as I see them as opportunities to grow. But don´t get me wrong, I feel anxiety and pain when it happens. That can not be avoided. But when you manage to calm yourself, focus and be strong, push through it, it doesn´t just help you at that moment, you gain something that you will never lose.

And a bit of a cliche maybe but try to think of things you can be grateful for. You can work remotely for example. So many people right now have no idea how to pay their rent this month because of this virus.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/06/20 06:17 PM
Hi Ben!

Thanks a lot for the comment! I was sure to find people here who understand me and with that story you just left me breathless. I would probably hold composure but my chest would feel like a tornado of pain if that happened. Worst thing is that I know I have to be prepared for that if it is what it all comes to.

I wanted my post today to start with a touch of humor for those who are home because of the virus. Remember when I first came here? no? see my first post, I literally asked everyone if I should send the DR book to my W! Epic first move!

My biggest question today was going to be about time. Everyone who loves is like come on man! it has been 8 year! dont you see she had made a decision? The other day, I talked to my W and of course she was on fire and she mocked me saying "how long has it been? dont you get it?" I calmly answered "8 months", and changed the subject. It hurt double because dates that are recorded with ink in my head like the day she moved out she seems to have forgotten and she seems to be sending the same message as at the beginning, "oh you poor hurting thing, all you need is time."

This freaking virus, aside of how lucky I am to be able to continue working, is not good for DB. I keep my exercise routine, I started watching my fav tv show over again (in short sessions, not too much tv), I am studying for the certifications I need at work and I have taken down the keyboard to become a rookie musician. But when my children are not here I wake up crying, then I pull myself up from the pity party or I go to sleep crying, missing her and the possibility to hug her to sleep. People out there are dying without being able to say goodbye to the ones they love, is heartbreaking. If I did not have enough with my guilt and desire to undo all the pain I put her through, this virus is reminding us all of everything that really matters, and you guys know for me is my family and her. My W thinks differently apparently, she told me she does not even remember when our R was good. She is really trying to break me, or to make me lose it so that she proves herself right, but not today, today is a lesson on true love and humbleness.

I dont know if you remember at the beginning of this I said here my W built a kind of support circle with her cousin who stood up a cheating boyfriend weeks before their wedding was planned and probably talked long about the incomplete and unfulfilling relationships they both had. Well she has moved in with my W until this is over. The last time I offered my W dinner, and I swear this was 2 weeks ago, she replied no, also my cousin is here and she said she was never coming back although I could keep hope if I wanted (she said this in a mocking tone).

She also said something that destroyed me a bit more. She told me in my family I have been taught I can have all I want and now she is what I want and I cannot accept I cannot have her and control her life. I come from a humble family, I have been the best student since school, got grants, got prizes, promoted and changed jobs. I am everything but spoiled, I have worked for every good thing in my life and this is why I want to work through the DB process. I trust my personal strength and ability to learn, but for her... for my W I am just a child who wants something he has lost, and he does not even truly love. I got in my car, I cried, I got home and cried again. I dont know how much I have changed for her to think something like this. But I know something better, I love her above all and finally my tiny stubborn brain understands now that love means giving the other person what she/he asks for and she is asking me to NOT have a R with her.

The loving comes natural, for example she talked to me about how she wants our children to start eating healthier, so I got a book about that because I want to be able to talk to her about ideas. I want to take care of her, now when people are making jokes about how domestic fights are increasing all I want is a f@%$# night kissing her and in bed with her, but my best and only friends are books and the phone.

I trust with time and effort I will be the perfect husband for someone. I just hope that someone is her and my children can have the family they deserve. I am reading "Manly Separation Survival" and it is really helping me but I miss her. Some days I sink in thoughts about the things she told me at home, when she threatened to go with the first man she would find if I made her stay in Germany, when she said she was glad she only had to survive a few days before she would be away from me or told me I had never satisfied her in the bed...

My family adores me, my friends admire me and my children miss me every single day they are with her. But for my W, the most important person in my life, I am some kind of monster. I am sorry I bring all these sad reflections, I need to talk to someone about this. Please note I dont see myself as a victim, I messed it up and I have put my marriage at risk of death because I ignored her many warnings. I have a lot to change but I could really really really use a hand from her side. Thank you all, tomorrow is my sister's birthday so no crying in 48 hours!
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/06/20 06:18 PM
I want this in my thread, I need it more than ever:

"If your efforts to save your marriage haven't been paying off, it's logical that you eventually start to question your motives for wanting your marriage to survive. I might do the same thing if I were in your shoes. It helps you to feel some sense of control and makes the hurt lessen somewhat.

However, from my perspective, unless there is physical violence or chronic substance abuse which is intolerable, I would prefer you look at it differently. There are lots of great reasons to try to restore love in a relationship, especially when there are children involved. Even if your marriage was lacking before the threat of divorce, there are good reasons to try to bring love into the marriage. You have been doing the right and honorable thing. You husband hasn't. You have been wise, your husband hasn't been. Rather than give up your morals and values and question why a person would want to save a marriage, I suggest you tell yourself that you've been nobly fighting for something that is worth fighting for. However, for some people, when the fight is unbearable, they decide that it's time to quit. That is an individual decision. If you're at that place, you are entitled to feel that way. You need to follow your heart- not because working on your marriage isn't worth it, but because your husband is currently too self-centered to recognize the benefits of making marriage work. That happens. There wouldn't be a 50% divorce rate if it didn't happen.

So quit if you must, but know that you were doing the right thing. You just weren't married to someone who uderstood this. Keep us posted.

Best to you,
Michele "
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/10/20 04:37 PM
hi all,

I am having a couple of terrible days. I will explain. The situation being alone at home is not the best, I spend a lot of time thinking about our good memories and I end up feeling like I cannot go on one more single day. Is like you have all the tools and know what to do but then you start missing her as intensively as day 1 and you feel like you need to go and review all those tools, rules and tips you have.

I have been crying around for the last 2-3 days and the worse I feel the stronger I feel the need to read through the material I have on DR and your tips. I remember reading here somewhere leaving the M and help books behind was a potential 180. Well I am not ready for that 180 at all.

Today I was planning to spend some time but I just could get myself focused. I have all these strong vivid memories of the early stages of our R, before kids, bills, work and it feels me with both a deep feel of love for her and pain for the fear that it is gone forever. Yesterday I went to pick up the kids, I was cheerful, listening, I looked into her eyes and did not say a word. This IS a little victory, and for those here who have followed my thread they will understand.

As Sandi once told me, it is probable I have not fully let go of her. I do not know why it is so hard. I do not want to talk her into anything, when our M went down I was in a polluted cloud and I feel like we did not get a chance to talk past, present and future properly as a couple going through cr***y times. I guess that is not happening now and might not ever happen.

Exercise is starting to pay back, I feel and look better but I chose to shave my hair due to covid quarantine and I look like a young military recruit! smile Like I said on a previous post, you see people who are dying without the chance to say goodbye to their loved ones and it just lights up this impulse to reach out to my W. the feeling of loneliness is dreadful in the sense that alone you are miserable and your family only pushes you to move on because, you know, its been 8 months and what the heck are you doing with your life.

The other day I did some clean up in the house to keep my mind distracted but nights are terrible. Sometimes I feel pitty for myself in the sense that I have been single and happy, independent, attractive, a man focused on his clear goals, but under the pressure of a failed marriage and a broken family that seems a selfish and irresponsible place to be. Do you understand what I mean? Whats wring with me?

That you all! stay safe and healthy!
Packs
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/14/20 10:10 PM
hi all,

I have collected a number of golden quotes from my thread and when the desire to write to my W of think about our memories attacks me I go and read them. It gives me strength to know there are people behind those statements that understand the situation.

My two children have been with me for the last 6 days and today after my S6 video called my W and wanted to hang up early (something I always tell him off for because I am educating her in the love to both of us) I got a phone call from my W. Shouting, it went something like this:

W: " I dont know what you and your family tell your son because he has told me he only wants to be there with you, he has more toys and he does not want to be with me. You are hurting your son. And now go on and write to me one of your love paragraphs"

Then she hung up. I was calmed, left the phone aside. Fisnished dinner, read a story to both S1 and S6 and put them to sleep. When I got the phone I had 4 missed calls and a message reading "call me". I wrote to W:

My TM: "I am sorry I was putting the kids to sleep. I am going to bed now, tomorrow I work earlier. If you want tomorrow give me a call to speak about whatever happened with S6. There will be no more paragraphs. Good night"

I am trying to change every defect on me and being the man and the father I want to be. I am loving on my son more than ever, I read to him, I build legos, play football, practice reading with him and we just started playing Spyro on ps4. I have made mistakes but I am not a bad father and I try to show my son how my W is wonderful in mentioning her as much as I can for good references. I know I cannot control my W, I dont want to read between the lines, I dont want a freaking date with her, I dont want a R now, I just want her despise and hatred to go away. Nothing seems to work, I have been NC for 4 days now, and I plan to go on like this for months. My actions so far have only pushed her away and she mocks my attempts to express love and empathy. What can I do more or new? thanks!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/14/20 11:11 PM
It's great to hear from you, Pack! You continue to sound much better, so you are doing something right. smile

Quote
My two children have been with me for the last 6 days and today after my S6 video called my W and wanted to hang up early (something I always tell him off for because I am educating her in the love to both of us)


You've lost me. Could you clarify the words in parenthesis?

Quote
W: " I dont know what you and your family tell your son because he has told me he only wants to be there with you, he has more toys and he does not want to be with me.


I think it's fairly common for the kids to say something on this level, when they first experience a flood of new toys and a parent's undivided attention. He's missed his father, so he's talking like a six year old little boy.

Quote
And now go on and write to me one of your love paragraphs"


P...a...c...k, have you been sending her love paragraphs???

Quote
I am trying to change every defect on me and being the man and the father I want to be.


As long as you are making the changes for yourself and your children, then bravo. I think it's only human to want to make changes to draw back the WAW/WW, too. Just a word of caution so you won't get depressed.......should you not see her responding positively. She is so full of rage, that even if you were to become a perfected version of Pack, it's possible she still wouldn't want to reconcile. Know why? B/c the biggest problem currently abides within her own heart. In other words, she has to find her own path out of the anger she feels. Currently, she's still blaming you for her unhappiness and her anger. Eventually, she will have to find a way to heal, or she'll remain a bitter person.

The only other advice I have for now, is that you might need to cut back a little bit on talking about S6's mother. I respect and admire what I think you are trying to do. But you might be saying too much in his little ears, too soon. When he's talking to his mother, he might unintentionally convey the wrong message. Considering how touchy she is while he's there with you, she will likely find fault and her anger will blaze higher. frown I know you wouldn't try to influence her through something S6 says......would you? Like, try to impress something?

I'm very proud of you and how you were finally able to detach.......at least a little. You've gone four whole days of NC. Isn't that a record breaking number for you? grin Hey, it's a good beginning. We'll take it.

((hugs))
Posted By: Vergo Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/15/20 09:25 AM
Sorry to read your story. For sure it's not an easy situation to be in especially when you have kids who are effected with this situation. Well I am from Germany too but my soon to be ex wife lives here too. Luckily we don't have kids but after we filed for divorce I had to put property for sale in Germany as half of it belongs to her. This year is not a good one for me fore sure. So I can understand what you are going through and everything will be fine sooner or later, we just have to wait.
Posted By: job Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/15/20 02:57 PM
Vergo,

Please start a thread of your own so that we can proceed support to you. Also, by creating a thread of your own, you can refer back to your threads as you walk the path that you are on.
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Cross countries separation EU - 04/30/20 09:07 AM
hi all!

Sorry again I have been out for a few days! We have this project at work that has me fully immersed and when the kids are here I do not have a minute to stop.

So the first thing about my S6 hanging up is this bad habit he has developed to suddenly hang up when he is videocalling either me or her from the other's apartment. My W has accused me of not encouraging him to speak to her daily and calmly when he is with me but cannot understand that so I have started making an effort for him to spend at least 30 min when he is here talking to her.

So my S6 loves being around with me, I can set time aside to work with him through his homework, I have all these story and flaps books he loves, we play spyro on the ps4, we play football and I am giving myself to them. I feel so alone and miserable that they have become all the love I get. My W accuses me of trying to win them and I told her the other day the only way I think we four win is if ever we get to be a family again and I am only trying to be the best father I can.

I did send my W some paragraphs, I got pity and mocking comments when I saw her, I have not done it again. I can proudly say I am all NC now, I go to bed and have things to keep me busy or entertained, I wake up in the morning with new goals, plans and to-do lists and I will never ever beg her again for a simple coffee or dinner. The other day for example she told me in a mocking tone that I could keep trying to fix us like I had been doing for the last 10 years without success, these comments make me realize how cold and distant she is right now, better back off.

Yesterday I dropped the kids with her and it was the first time when after enjoying some time with them together I was the first one to want to go, I genuinely wanted to leave so I opened the door to her building and as I was saying goodbye she started crying and told me she could not bear anymore my accusations. She told me she was not happy either but she could not be with me, she had suffered for a long time and now she could not start clean.

I told her I knew she had been banging her head against a wall and that I was sorry and would give her all time and space she needs. To that her reply was that I am stubborn, that I must accept we are separated and it is probable we are never together again. I got strength from inside and told her I had accepted it and she told me she does not understand why we cannot speak like friends and that it feels like I am punishing her. I told her I could happily talk about our children and the only one to shift the blame 100% on the other here was her and walked away (I am sorry but I just felt like I also have to set boundaries for me and her tears did not seem genuine, you cannot just cry and then say do not dare coming close to me in an angry tone)

I have some questions maybe you all can help me with. I can perfectly separate our children from adult relationship, yet I cannot be her friend like all is roses and happiness and oh yes we share two children but do not love each other. I read all this DB stories were Hs say the first step is to be friends again, what on earth is wrong with me? why can't I ignore the fact that we have a broken marriage? it hurts so much to hear her talk about us as nice memories!

Also I dont know what to think about her tears, she has used them in the past to get her way and they come out of nowhere. A minute ago she is ignoring me and when I am going to leave she bursts into tears, what is she playing at? I did not want a separation, I asked for time to work on me and gave her options to build a new life in Spain but her answer is you know the only thing I could not see fitting in my life was you (wtf? could someone hurt you more with a sole sentence?). I feel like I carry 100% of the blame, I carry it all alone and she keeps talking about us never getting back as if I wanted to force her, I have had enough, I deserve someone who values me for the things I have and will achieve.

I read your golden tips almost daily and I specially keep an eye on that sentence, "give her time from talking to you, I mean months,... all of your actions so far have pushed her away". I have finally managed no contact, I no longer count the days, I dont have a deadline to save my M and all I have to do now is be the best me I can ever be. I hate fighting this war alone, I hate the uncertainty of knowing that regardless of your changes the output depends on her entirely and I hate myself for not being able to give my children a full and happy family.

I am better, it has taken me 6 months but I am, only I am still emotionally shattered inside and getting used to living day after day without big fancy future plans as I always had. Some days I feel apathy for this, but I pull myself back to mourn for the loss of my M and move on. The only good thing about all this guilt and pain is that it keeps me invested on being my best me every minute.

@Vergo, I am sorry you are here. Yes it seems I will also be selling a property in Germany by the end of this year. My W and I have not filed yet but as you can read here it seems we are sailing in that direction. I will go to your thread and try to help but see the positive of this, use the time wisely to be the best you for the new stage of your life.

Thank you all, ((hugs))
Pack

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