Old thread here:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2866304&page=allQuick recap of my sitch: I'm 44, H is 40. We've been together for 16 years, married 12, with a D7 and a D9. We had a sex-starved marriage due to my disinterest and about 18 months ago H decided I 'broke" him sexually by my constant rejection and has maintained since then he can't envision restarting a passionate/sexual R with me. We were arguing a lot too and started MC a little over a year ago, but he would never agree to a shared goal of a better R and we stopped MC after about 6 months because he felt the MC was on "my" side. He started IC and has continued since (fairly sure his IC is not exactly pro-marriage).
Last January, he entered into an EA with a 33 yo AP who lives on the other side of the country. He has been in her city a half-dozen times since then. In April he gave me the ILYB BD and started talking about the possibility of S/D and in August told me about the EA. At that time he said they were no longer in contact because she didn't want to be with someone who wasn't free to be in a real R. Since then, I'm pretty sure he's seen her at least once (which he lied about) maybe twice on business trips but I don't think they're in frequent contact. (My best guess is that she's cut it off, maybe gave him an ultimatum which he hasn't moved on. I'm 99.99% sure it didn't progress to a PA but I know they kissed a couple of times.
I read DB in April and started GAL-ing and 180s and our R is much improved since then-- hardly any fights, connecting much better on work/family/friendship issues, etc. However, in R talks he has maintained he doesn't see the possibility of a passionate R between us again and that his only options are D or a co-parenting/friendship marriage. He also has a fantasy of D where we would still vacation together, eat dinner together, etc. He is actively "in love" with AP, has told me he would have left long ago if it wasn't for the kids, and in many ways feels that our M ended when he came to the "realization" that I wasn't sexually attracted to him anymore. He still loves me but not in a husband-wife way. We haven't had an R talk for about a month, when he told me he "didn't know what he wanted" (which was somewhat of an improvement from the last time, when he said he was thinking of moving out).
He moved out of the MB after the BD and then quietly returned about two months ago. My most recent dilemma is around sex-- we've had a few middle-of-the-night encounters since he came back to the MB but he's clearly conflicted about it, and I haven't been sure whether to initiate since that would be a big 180 for me or if that would be too much pressure.
Also, my entire family has been in town for Thanksgiving and there has been a lot of static between my mom and H, where both of them have been acting pretty badly. Trying to navigate between both of them has been hard and H is clearly having a really difficult time and has regressed somewhat-- he's pulled back a lot emotionally and physically over the last week. He did kiss me in the middle of the night a couple of nights ago and I didn't move forward to initiate sex, though I think he was waiting for me to do so-- worrying that might have been the wrong move. (Unfortunately I didn't log back onto these forums in time to get Steve85 and others' advice!!) Trying to double down on GAL-ing, validation, and giving him space... except maybe initiating sex. My parents are still here for two more days but my siblings and nephews have left-- H and I might go out for beers tonight so we'll see how that goes.
Any and all thoughts and comments welcome and hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! I'm very grateful to all of you!
just want to drop in and tell you that I'm still following your story! the holidays is a tough time. hang in there!
Update:
Last night we went out for drinks after dinner, fun/friendly time. Came home and went to sleep and woke up an hour later and he was awake right in my face-- not exactly sure which one of us initiated but we ended up having sex (another quickie). He went to the bathroom for a long time afterwards and then when he came back to bed was visibly distressed. I asked him if he was OK, he said not really, I asked if he wanted to talk about it.
He said he felt like he should feel good, more than OK, but he didn't and that wasn't fair to me. I just listened and validated. He repeated many of the same things he said the last time-- he didn't think that sex would fix anything, he didn't know what he wanted, he felt like we were just pretending to be OK (especially with my family here all week) and that we weren't dealing with anything between us.
I agreed. He asked me how I was feeling and I deflected a couple of times but ended up responding. He thinks it is strange that I have been just going along with the flow and that I'm not really internalizing the fact that he is in love with someone else-- repeated that "if I could see into his head" I would leave him in a second. That he is a bad person, he's done enough damage to our R that he can't imagine me forgiving him or him forgiving himself.
Here is what I said (tell me if I went too far)-- I didn't think that sex would fix anything and that we would need to see an MC trained in infidelity to help us to get through this and help us both deal with forgiveness. That forgiveness is kind of like grace; it is a choice and there is no formula to say what could/couldn't be forgiven. That I haven't pushed him to work on our R because I don't think he's ready, that he hasn't chosen to focus on our R, and that needed to happen before we could take the next steps of actually working on our MR.
We talked a lot about Esther Perel. He likes the 'second marriage' idea, though vacillated between calling it a second "M" and a second "R". I had just finished reading her new book the State of Affairs and she talks about three kinds of couples that weather infidelity-- the sufferers, the builders, and the explorers. The builders are basically happy to get back to the status quo and value the stability of their lives together, but don't really grow beyond what they had before. The explorers take the opportunity to build a new, stronger, more intimate R that might incorporate some of the aspects of the A-- maybe less safe, but more passionate. We talked about both wanting the explorer route and for the first time he sounded like he thought it would be possible-- he said he thought I was motivated by the builder reasons but was smart enough to be an explorer. He said for him, the builder R was all he had seen and the only motivation for him to stay. I said I thought it was pretty common in all the things I'm reading/podcasts etc that people -- especially the betrayer-- often stays for the builder reasons-- family, commitment, etc-- and it wasn't until they moved into MC and really talking about their R and what they wanted for the future that they became explorers.
However, he also said that he didn't think the explorer route necessarily meant a new marriage, but a new R that didn't need to include M. (We're getting back into his fantasy D here, and I didn't ask him about it because it makes me crazy). I did say to him that I didn't see us being friends if we weren't together. He said (exasperated) that he simply didn't understand that. I'm proud of my reaction-- every time previously we've had this discussion I've kind of flipped out here and last night I simply said I didn't think I could be friends with him after he had hurt me so deeply, that I would need to lead my own life separate from him, but maybe one day far in the future we could be friends again. He doesn't get my position on this and said so, and I just said hey, we are different people, I don't understand some of the choices he's made, so he needs to believe that I might handle this very differently from him. He accepted this (for the first time).
I did ask him if he was still in contact with the AP and he said yes... occasionally. I asked if he's seen her and he said yes, not every trip (so I think I was 100% right that he saw her the first trip, though I didn't ask about that). He saw her this last trip the day I thought he had-- met her for lunch and then they met up with a third friend for drinks in the afternoon. He was super uncomfortable talking about it and sounded annoyed. I asked if he was mad at me, annoyed-- he said he wasn't annoyed or mad, he knew he sounded like that but was just feeling so guilty and badly that he didn't want to talk about it.
He said he hadn't ever really stopped being in contact with her and what they mostly talk about is that this can't work between them. I asked why he hadn't gone to NC and he said he can't. I asked why she hadn't moved on and he said because of this thing between the two of them. He talked a little about how he feels I've minimized his feelings towards her. I said (maybe shouldn't have) that he'll never be able to focus on working on our R as long as he's in contact with her and has her on his mind-- he isn't really able to focus on trying and building up our R until she's out of the picture. (I didn't say anything about making choices.) He said again that he IS trying with me, gesturing towards the bed. Also, that he wasn't doing her any favors by keeping this going with her-- he should let her go, let her meet someone her own age, get married and have kids. He got totally silent (I know he doesn't want any more children) and we just didn't talk for awhile.
In the end, we talked a bit more. He feels like we should be talking about our visions for the future. He knows mine is the "explorer" version of a new MR and said his is "different." I asked if in his we weren't married anymore and he said yes. I didn't ask more (didn't want to know). We talked about him talking to my coach for a session, which she'd suggested and I think we'll do. I said there were 2 Gottman-trained therapists in town and one also had discernment training, which might help him make a decision (not sure if I should press for that but mentioned it). He said he didn't think he wanted to talk to anyone about it.
I think he wants to leave but can't bring himself to do it, but he also can't bring himself to stop talking to AP and actually focusing on our R-- so not much of a change from where we were last. We ended up just going to sleep (I wondered if he would go sleep in the office but he didn't... in fact he went to the bathroom, came back and faced me to sleep (I was turned away)-- like we would have been spooning if we had been any closer to each other. He has been nice all morning.
Guess I just need to keep it up. Interesting that he made the opening for sex twice in a week-- that is a big change-- and I think overall I'm glad we did it even though we ended up in an R talk. I am not sure we can have sex without getting into an R talk afterwards unless I pretend to fall asleep because he is SO conflicted about having sex with me and having feelings for someone else. Thoughts?
just want to drop in and tell you that I'm still following your story! the holidays is a tough time. hang in there!
Thanks, Woosa! I'm following your story too-- keep posting!!
may, I would stop having sex with him. This feels to me like a man feeling guilty for sleeping with his wife when he is cheating on her. Sorry to be blunt, but this innocent meeting stuff is something I don't buy, and I think you need to brace yourself for the fact that your H is in a PA. You have to protect yourself. I would highly suggest a doctor visit to rule out STDs.
Hi May, I marvel at your inner strength trying to keep this marriage together despite his desire to quit. No advice to offer today--just wanted to let you know I'd read your update and am rooting for you.
may, I would stop having sex with him. This feels to me like a man feeling guilty for sleeping with his wife when he is cheating on her. Sorry to be blunt, but this innocent meeting stuff is something I don't buy, and I think you need to brace yourself for the fact that your H is in a PA. You have to protect yourself. I would highly suggest a doctor visit to rule out STDs.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for this. After our conversation last night, I think there is a chance that this progressed to a PA and he hasn't told me to avoid hurting me, but I don't think they're active now-- it just doesn't pass the smell test to me that they have 6 chances to be together in a year and don't actually spend the night together... and if they did, I also know there is no way he'd chat on the phone with me with her there. He'd just go silent (like he did during the times I know they were together). I also am weirded out that he wouldn't just tell me if he wants out of our M, because he knows that would push us majorly in that direction. I asked him point blank last night if they had slept together and he said no-- would have been the perfect opportunity.
Anyway. I know it is pointless to try to get in his head and think about what he may or may not be lying about. However, at this point he won't be in her city again until February or March. Part of me really wants to ask and know more, and be direct about him needing to go NC and stopping this thing if there is any chance of us even being friends at the end of this. The other part of me still feels like pushing him to make a decision is pressure and will make it more likely for him to leave, so if I can continue to focus on DBing and myself I can focus on any advice you gave me previously, thinking about this as the gift of time.
Given the sitch (even if he did sleep with her, they have no chances to be together in person until February or beyond), do you recommend pushing to find out if it is a PA and kicking him out of the MB, etc? Or just being safe myself in terms of sex and not responding if he initiates?
Hi May, I marvel at your inner strength trying to keep this marriage together despite his desire to quit. No advice to offer today--just wanted to let you know I'd read your update and am rooting for you.
Thanks CW... it is really nothing to do with me, 100% to do with my kids. I'd do anything for them and if that means swallowing my pride and doing everything I can to make this family work for them, I will.
I am having a hard time today, though. Knowing he's still in contact with her is somehow way worse than just knowing he still has feelings for her... and thinking about what might have happened in terms of a PA. I'm definitely not to the detachment phase yet.
May, what I am saying is to always error on the side of caution when it comes to sexual health. It isn't worth it to take a chance and end up with a disease. If this OW is willing to sleep with your H then likely she is willing to sleep with other people too. Protect yourself just in case. Plus he has now given you a built in excuse. "Last time we did you said it bothered you so assumed it was off the table."
As far as what you should do, no do not move on a PA until you are sure with evidence. Stay vigilant. Stay observant. And be ready if and when the truth of a PA comes forward. That will be the time to take decisive action. So many LBSs have had a second BD (the truth of a PA) come out and were not ready to handle it properly. Remember, if it happens you should treat it the same way you should treat BD #1, but that few LBSs do. Calmly. Resolutely. Decisively. Firmly.
Let's pretend he just comes out and admits it: "I have been in a PA with OW, and seeing her regularly on these trips." Your response: "I see. Well that certainly changes things quite a bit. You will be sleeping in the guest bedroom for the time-being. If and when you decide to end this PA and recommit to the MR we can discuss what will need to happen at that time."
may, you've got this. Keep learning. Keep reading. Keep posting.
Hi Steve,
May, what I am saying is to always error on the side of caution when it comes to sexual health. It isn't worth it to take a chance and end up with a disease. If this OW is willing to sleep with your H then likely she is willing to sleep with other people too. Protect yourself just in case. Plus he has now given you a built in excuse. "Last time we did you said it bothered you so assumed it was off the table."
Gotcha-- all makes sense. Plus, the last two times resulted in an R talk afterwards--never a good thing, especially in the middle of the night. And I end up not sleeping at all and having a terrible time the next day. Better to avoid.
As far as what you should do, no do not move on a PA until you are sure with evidence. Stay vigilant. Stay observant. And be ready if and when the truth of a PA comes forward.
Because she lives so far away (and because he must be deleting her call records and texts as soon as they come in when they talk-- I've had enough time with his phone to know there aren't any other apps or a mis-labeled contact) I think the only way I will ever find out is if he tells me.
It is so weird-- my H is someone who has prided himself his entire life on being 100% honest. He is/was very religious (is now questioning his faith in addition to everything else, and has stopped going to church) and he was very critical of people who lied, even small white lies. I could tell that he was lying about the two times he was with her on recent trips, and the way he responded to my question the other night about whether or not this had advanced into a PA did raise my red flags-- though more for in the past than currently.
So many LBSs have had a second BD (the truth of a PA) come out and were not ready to handle it properly. Remember, if it happens you should treat it the same way you should treat BD #1, but that few LBSs do. Calmly. Resolutely. Decisively. Firmly.
Let's pretend he just comes out and admits it: "I have been in a PA with OW, and seeing her regularly on these trips." Your response: "I see. Well that certainly changes things quite a bit. You will be sleeping in the guest bedroom for the time-being. If and when you decide to end this PA and recommit to the MR we can discuss what will need to happen at that time."
may, you've got this. Keep learning. Keep reading. Keep posting.
I will take this one to heart-- think I'll need to actually practice what I'll say in order to be able to do it.
Question-- earlier you said that EAs either burn out or turn into PAs. Do you think the physical portion is all that important in keeping the A going? I wonder because I think his emotional connection to the AP is quite strong-- he considers it a relationship, she feels the same way, etc.-- and they simply don't have very much opportunity to be physical with each other. I wonder if it makes his connection feel all the stronger being away from her. Yesterday I said something to him that I shouldn't have (was tired and sad) and he said "this isn't about her. this is about us." I said "if it was, you'd stop." and he said, "(pause) touche." I walked away and left it at that, but from our talk the other night, he feels he's tried to go NC and simply can't stick to it because of their connection. I just need to keep to the path, right, and either he'll start getting more interested in me and the MR or take a step in the other direction?
Ughhghh May! My heart hurts for you. Your H reminds me so much of my ww. The intense emotion behind their "feelings" and how they just can't end things. H is just addicted to being stuck. He can't bring himself to end things (selfish) with AP, yet doesn't have the strength to leave you. It must feel so frustrating for you.
One thing that has helped me stay grounded and not think about what I should or should not do is this:
Everyone deserves happiness. You wouldn't want him if choosing you didn't bring him joy. You deserve happiness. You deserve the world. Take some deep breaths and focus on each moment and what would bring you joy. Push him out of your mind and all of the "if" scenarios away. You can't control any of it.
Stay Strong!
And PS. I like your idea about practicing how to react to PA BD (fingers crossed it never happens..).
KG
Thanks, Kristin! I'm feeling back like I did right after previous BDs, and it was especially hard this time because my parents were here and I had to be "on" for them. They left today, and I'm hoping that the space that brings will be helpful for both of us.
I saw on your thread that meditation is helping and I think I should start that back up-- and focusing on what I CAN control, not what I can't. Also, in trying to parse through more logically why I feel the way I do, I think it is partially the pressure of the holidays/family and the not-knowing of what has been/is going on with the AP. As I back up a bit, even though he is still in contact and "in love" with AP, things are still better than they were before (baby steps):
Actions:
-- he moved back into the MB and went from saying he couldn't imagine ever being sexual with me again and that he wasn't attracted to me (and not initiating/having sex for months) to opening the door now four times in the past couple of months. (After BD1 in April, I said something to him about wanting to focus on my own sexuality for myself, and his reaction was one of disgust-- he made a face and said "ugh, you don't want to say that to me." So the fact that he's now initiating sex, even in the middle of the night and clearly very conflicted about it-- is definitely better than being grossed out.)
-- he went from flinching at my touch and always moving away-- if I touched my knee to his on the couch, for instance, he would move his away-- to initiating touch- putting his hand on my shoulder, touching my arm, cuddling up close next to me to do the crossword puzzle together. This is fairly regular and even though I sensed him drawing away somewhat this past week, there have still been opportunities for him to initiate touch that he's taken.
-- our R is much, much improved from the past. We went from lots of fighting and palpable anger and resentment steaming off of him every time we were together back to being very good friends. No matter what happens, I have learned a ton about relationships and communicating.
Words (knowing I am not putting a lot into them vs actions, but nonetheless):
-- even though he said out loud he wanted to move down to the basement, he hasn't... and in the two most recent R talks, he went from "thinking about moving out" to "I don't know what I want."
-- he has said in the last couple of R talks that he could see a new MR with me as a (remotely) possible option-- previously did not see it as a possibility at all and was very definitive about that.
-- he's really opened up about other issues unrelated to our R and shared emotionally vulnerable things with me, about friends (or lack thereof), his work, etc. I know these are things he hasn't shared with anyone else other than his IC. We talk way more now about important non-kid/family related things than we have in years, probably since before the kids were born.
One of the main issues I have will be making him understand that our R the way it is now will not continue if we S or D-- I won't be his best friend anymore. I think he is vastly underestimating the depth of what this means, and he imagines we would still be best friends and eat dinners and vacation together, just he'd go sleep at his own place.
I guess we'll cross that bridge of him needing to fully understand what losing me means if we have to but at this point I feel like he's deciding between pursuing a R with the AP together with the fantasy divorce idea with me vs. choosing a boring, passionless MR with me, plus losing out on the possibility of real romance/connection with someone else. I get that in that scenario, the MR with me does not look so great. However, I don't think there is anything I can do in terms of helping him to understand this (or helping him deal with the fallout/grief of NC with the AP to the extent he does actually try), right? It is something he will have to come to on his own?
It is so weird-- my H is someone who has prided himself his entire life on being 100% honest. He is/was very religious (is now questioning his faith in addition to everything else, and has stopped going to church) and he was very critical of people who lied, even small white lies.
my H is the same. I think 1. they are confused. 2. they are irrational. 3. they start with the little lies, and it just gets easier to easier to lie. 5. they are selfish.
Now when my H calls and tells me that he's not gonna be home after work, and asks me to let the kids know that he's still working, I just hand the phone over to S and have H tell it to them HIMSELF. I used to tell the kids that "daddy said he's working late again." and it made me very uncomfortable to lie to the kids, so I'm passing it to him. You are the one who walked away, come up with your own excuses to our children. That's a boundary for me. If the kids ask me where he is, I simply answer "I don't know" because I really don't. I guess the good thing is that they are still young enough where they don't think too much about it.
Sorry, I digressed. I needed to vent. lol!!
Question-- earlier you said that EAs either burn out or turn into PAs. Do you think the physical portion is all that important in keeping the A going? I wonder because I think his emotional connection to the AP is quite strong-- he considers it a relationship, she feels the same way, etc.-- and they simply don't have very much opportunity to be physical with each other. I wonder if it makes his connection feel all the stronger being away from her. Yesterday I said something to him that I shouldn't have (was tired and sad) and he said "this isn't about her. this is about us." I said "if it was, you'd stop." and he said, "(pause) touche." I walked away and left it at that, but from our talk the other night, he feels he's tried to go NC and simply can't stick to it because of their connection. I just need to keep to the path, right, and either he'll start getting more interested in me and the MR or take a step in the other direction?
I said that because clearly his EA hasn't burned out. When an EA burns out, usually one or both, but usually the OP, will move on to a new EA. I find that a large percentage of people that engage in EAs are addicted to them. And have to have one going at any given time. Sometimes they specifically target someone that has a spouse or significant other due to the challenge involved. So since it seems that his hasn't burned out, and the OW is still engaging, it makes me think it is either already a PA or is headed there. And while there isn't readily available physical access between the two of them, it sounds like they at least occasionally have access to each other. Also, there are more than one way to be "physical" with one another as well, though there is still distance involved. Also, with all of this talk about their "connection", go back and read what I wrote about Hs and sex earlier in your thread, and then frame it in regard to his feeling of connection to her.
So the too long didn't read version is: I said that to prepare you for the likelihood that this has or will go physical.
But the answer to your last question is yes. Just keep DBing. The better you DB the better the chance he will wake up. But it isn't full proof. However, the better you DB the better you will be prepared mentally and emotionally for the outcome no matter what it is.
The biggest red flag I see with you is that you are still a bit in denial about the state of things. Assume the worst. Hope for the best. This is why I typically, especially early on, try to keep LBSs from being too hopeful about positive signs. You have to prepare yourself for the worst because unfortunately, even with exceptional DBing, the odds are against you. As another marriage saving expert puts it: you can't fix in a few weeks or months what it took you years to get into. The simple truth is that if the WAS wants to leave, get a D, and move on...they will.
I said that because clearly his EA hasn't burned out. When an EA burns out, usually one or both, but usually the OP, will move on to a new EA. I find that a large percentage of people that engage in EAs are addicted to them. And have to have one going at any given time. Sometimes they specifically target someone that has a spouse or significant other due to the challenge involved. So since it seems that his hasn't burned out, and the OW is still engaging, it makes me think it is either already a PA or is headed there. And while there isn't readily available physical access between the two of them, it sounds like they at least occasionally have access to each other. Also, there are more than one way to be "physical" with one another as well, though there is still distance involved. Also, with all of this talk about their "connection", go back and read what I wrote about Hs and sex earlier in your thread, and then frame it in regard to his feeling of connection to her.
So the too long didn't read version is: I said that to prepare you for the likelihood that this has or will go physical.
This is helpful. I hadn't thought of the OW all that much and what her motivations are-- just kind of assumed if she was smart she'd move on as a married man with kids living 5000 miles away just isn't a great prospect. But from your posts (also Caligirl's) it is now hitting me that she may not be using the same ethical and decision-making framework as I would, thus the possibility of seeking out and sticking with a married man and/or sleeping around. Ugh. It makes me more annoyed/sad at H for being such an f--ing cliche, but also maybe more clear-eyed about her motivations and the likelihood that she'll back off. A couple of months ago he said she "wasn't happy" about all this-- I think before he moved back into the MB but can't remember exactly-- and it definitely seemed like she was pressuring him. I generally am trying not to talk about her at all.
The biggest red flag I see with you is that you are still a bit in denial about the state of things. Assume the worst. Hope for the best. This is why I typically, especially early on, try to keep LBSs from being too hopeful about positive signs. You have to prepare yourself for the worst because unfortunately, even with exceptional DBing, the odds are against you. As another marriage saving expert puts it: you can't fix in a few weeks or months what it took you years to get into. The simple truth is that if the WAS wants to leave, get a D, and move on...they will.
Yes, I see this. I guess I am needing to focus on the positive because the alternative is so painful. I haven't really accepted that there is a good likelihood this will all end in D-- I keep telling myself at the other end, this will have been a rocky part of our M and we'll both be so glad we stuck it out. This means I need to work more on detachment, right? When I allow myself to think about what D would mean, only having my kids with me half the time, the possibility of him actually dating or living with this person, my heart starts racing, my stomach drops out, and I am consumed with anxiety. I calm myself by taking deep breaths and telling myself we'll cross that bridge when and if we come to it. I am getting better at handling the idea of him cheating, mentally and physically... I think I could handle that BD if/when it comes. What I can't handle is the idea of him actually leaving and walking away from our family. That to me would be unforgivable-- the rest I can handle.
But the answer to your last question is yes. Just keep DBing. The better you DB the better the chance he will wake up. But it isn't full proof. However, the better you DB the better you will be prepared mentally and emotionally for the outcome no matter what it is.
So... GAL? Focus on me? Whatever I can do to work on detachment? I think I'm pretty good at the 180s and my interactions with him at this point. But I am really hanging onto hope. For me, I feel like the best route to detachment is to focus on all his terrible qualities and tell myself I'm better off without him... but then not sure that is the right path either if I do want to R. He does respond well to positive interactions and when I start to get annoyed and angry with him for doing this, he both catches on quickly to my mood and responds by backing off.
Not a ton to report. I've been feeling pretty anxious following the recent conversation and adjusting to the possibility that this might be more than an EA as well as him admitting they never really stopped being in contact. Went out with friends Monday and Tuesday night and tonight took kids to see a movie while H went for drinks with a friend.
I'd felt like he was withdrawing somewhat while my family was here and the day or so after the sex/talk, but yesterday and today he's been texting me a bunch during the day, joking around, kind of back to where we were except that I'm more guarded and (honestly) fearful again, having a hard time concentrating at work.
Going to try to channel my anxiety into more GAL-ing and being more deliberate in my interactions with him like I was earlier on in the DBing mode.
my H is the same. I think 1. they are confused. 2. they are irrational. 3. they start with the little lies, and it just gets easier to easier to lie. 5. they are selfish.
Now when my H calls and tells me that he's not gonna be home after work, and asks me to let the kids know that he's still working, I just hand the phone over to S and have H tell it to them HIMSELF. I used to tell the kids that "daddy said he's working late again." and it made me very uncomfortable to lie to the kids, so I'm passing it to him. You are the one who walked away, come up with your own excuses to our children. That's a boundary for me. If the kids ask me where he is, I simply answer "I don't know" because I really don't. I guess the good thing is that they are still young enough where they don't think too much about it.
HI Woosa,
I do think the lying is a total slippery slope. And then when they look back and see the all that they're doing, the lies, hurting you, hurting the family, it is like they HAVE to believe that it was all worthwhile and so focus even more on the OW or whatever... otherwise they are destroying their families for NOTHING. Seems like a vicious circle... and must be awful to be the one stuck in it, as awful as it is to be the ones they're doing this to.
That really s**cks that he's trying to make you lie to the kids. Good on you to make him tell them himself. My D7 asked me early on in all of this if we were ever going to get a divorce... something she'd asked in the past and I always said no, baby, never. This time I said baby, I would never want a divorce. She asked, what about daddy? I said she'd have to ask daddy that. I don't know if she actually did or not, but I wanted to vomit.
May, I read your whole thread to catch myself up on your story and I just want to say I admire your strength and the changes you’ve made! Like you mentioned in my thread, our H have some similarities regarding their behavior. My H also used to be 100% honest with me and I’m a person who prefers when people are transparent so it feels particularly hurtful to see him not being truthful. But it does seem like a slippery slope of one omission or white lie leading to more and more. If my H admits to an A, I hope I can be as strong as you are.
woosa, is 100% right on this. Lying usually starts small and snowballs. And this has been the case since the beginning of time. Cane and Abel. David and Bathsheeba. Even the story of Abraham lying to Pharoah about Sarah not being his wife, and Pharoah was almost killed for it. Smalls lies have a way of turning into big lies, and even into worse sins.
However, I will caution LBSs. Dwelling on the lies that WASs tell is a fool's game. After all, if they are willing to sleep with another person, lying about that awful act of adultery is really not that surprising. There is a reason we tell LBSs "Believe NOTHING they say. And only half of what they do." Someone that would cheat on their spouse really can't be trusted in any other way. (Which is what amazed me about Bill Clinton, when he finally admitted to his affair with Lewinsky, after lying about it, then turned all sanctimonious about how he never coerced anyone to lie about it. Initially, saying "yes I cheated on my W, lied about it, but believe me when I tell you I never tried to get others to help cover it up!" As if his word carried any meaning. This is NOT meant to be political, but to point out why a cheater and liar cannot be believed no matter how insistent they are that they are now telling the truth.)
woosa, is 100% right on this.
I feel like a student getting an A from their teacher!!! lol!!
However, I will caution LBSs. Dwelling on the lies that WASs tell is a fool's game.There is a reason we tell LBSs "Believe NOTHING they say. And only half of what they do."
Oh totally agree. I remember reading this quote for the first time. and then I kept seeing it to be true again and again...I've realized that all the words are seriously BS. plus the story always changes and when you lay everything out it's all so contradictory.
may22 - I'm right there with ya on working on detachment. If I were you I'd be less friendly knowing that he's still very likely in contact with OW. It sounds like you guys are interacting a lot.
also I wouldn't focus on his wrongs just because that would brew resentment. and it's just not healthy for you. and it means you're still very attached to him/his terrible qualities/what he did...etc. I mean, what could be a worse quality for a WAS other than the fact that they walked away? I feel like what helps me with detachment is constantly telling myself that I cannot fix him. accepting the fact that I don't have control over him. I don't know, I'm still working on this myself. don't know if that was any help to you...ha.
Rosy... thank you... though I don't feel strong at all. A big part of me feels like if I were strong I would have booted him out long ago. But I just can't do that to my kids.
Steve/Woosa, totally on board about the lying. It is just so difficult to reconcile the person I *know* he was with the things that he's doing, and the lies are just an example of that. It also makes me feel depressed about the future, no matter what happens. Like once a liar/cheater, always a liar/cheater... what am I doing? On the other hand, I know he's struggling, confused, scared, etc and I understand where the lies are coming from. In any case, removing myself from caring too much about what he says and not taking anything at face value does help towards detachment.
Woosa-- on the friendliness--I have been going back and forth on this a lot. For my H, friendliness on my part and responding to his bids have had a positive impact on his behavior, whereas if I get more standoffish he really withdraws. I feel like if he took that next step, like moving down to the basement or out of the house, I would be 100% ready to significantly decrease friendly contact-- but for now I'm still working on treating him like a "beloved houseguest" (my coach's recommendation).
What I've been trying to do is just get out of the house more to GAL so that I'm not around as much, to not suggest time together or push on anything, but to be friendly if he initiates interactions. Like for instance last night I took the kids to a movie, he went to drinks with a friend. The kids and I were sitting down to dinner at a restaurant when he texted me "dinner?" I said he was welcome to join us, we'd just sat down, he said no worries as he was thinking of a specific place he wanted to go and was just seeing if we wanted to join him. He went to his restaurant and we ate at ours, but he proceeded to text me throughout the dinner, sending pictures of his food, links to interesting news items, asking how the kids were doing, etc. I responded (to all but the news item).
At home, I almost always sit on a certain part of the couch with my laptop/phone/book after the kids go to bed-- sometimes we watch a show, sometimes we talk or have a beer, sometimes we both do work or read. Right around/after the first BD (the ILBY BD, before I knew about the EA) he would barely talk to me and would sit in his office to do work, or plop down on the couch and turn on the TV without saying a word to me. Now, he is just as likely to do work out on the couch next to me, ask me what I want to watch or if it is OK if he watches whatever. Last night he initiated a fairly deep conversation -- asked me how I was feeling about my mom since there were some major areas of tension during my parents' visit.
Focusing on his wrongs helps me to be angry which *feels* like a potential path to detachment? But maybe is not? I have tried to think back to breakups with serious BFs I had before H. One cheated on me with his ex and I kicked him to the curb immediately. I was devastated but focused on what an a-hole he was and that really helped me get over him. This is such a different situation especially with the children-- and the ex BF was a broken person with serious issues that caused him to act the way he did-- but H is the father of my kids and no matter what will always be in my life and someone important to me and my children. So finding that route of loving detachment is my goal. The mantra of I cannot fix him, I did not break him (haha even though he says I did b/c of the sex situation), and I cannot control him, only myself HAS been a really helpful one for me. It just isn't getting me quite there quite yet.
Being angry does not equate to detachment. Nor lead to detachment. Detachment is almost a LACK of emotion, therefore it cannot be gained through emotion. Does that make sense?
Being angry signifies being attached. Being sad. Being upset. Being happy.
I've often put it this way. You are at the stove, cooking dinner. He comes in and says "I have something to tell you." You turn and face him. He says; "Last week I met with 7 women, and had an orgy in a hotel room with them." You, non-chalantly say: "Oh. Okay." Then turn back to stirring your green beans.
You don't react. You don't cry. You don't yell. You don't scream. You don't tell him to leave. Etc. The ability to not react, not let it affect you, not make it make you stop what you are doing, etc....THAT is detachment.
It doesn't mean that there are not consequences for his actions. After dinner, and cleaning up afterward. You can tell him: "Based on what you told me early you will be sleeping somewhere other than the MB for the time-being." Then go on about your evening.
Please go back and read the detachment thread.
Being angry does not equate to detachment. Nor lead to detachment. Detachment is almost a LACK of emotion, therefore it cannot be gained through emotion. Does that make sense?
Being angry signifies being attached. Being sad. Being upset. Being happy.
I've often put it this way. You are at the stove, cooking dinner. He comes in and says "I have something to tell you." You turn and face him. He says; "Last week I met with 7 women, and had an orgy in a hotel room with them." You, non-chalantly say: "Oh. Okay." Then turn back to stirring your green beans.
You don't react. You don't cry. You don't yell. You don't scream. You don't tell him to leave. Etc. The ability to not react, not let it affect you, not make it make you stop what you are doing, etc....THAT is detachment.
It doesn't mean that there are not consequences for his actions. After dinner, and cleaning up afterward. You can tell him: "Based on what you told me early you will be sleeping somewhere other than the MB for the time-being." Then go on about your evening.
Please go back and read the detachment thread.
Hi Steve,
Thanks for continuing to help me on this. I think I get what the state of detachment looks like, but am struggling with how to get there. For me, in the past, I've reached that state in previous break-ups by focusing on the bad in the R and the person. Like:
(1) This guy is an a-hole and I'm really upset about it, to
(2) This guy is an a-hole, why am I bothering to spend my time and energy thinking about him? I'm better off without him
... and that state of mind, at least in the past, has helped me to get to really not caring. The ex BF I was referencing prior was someone I worked with, so I couldn't cut off contact, but I was able to detach to the point that I really didn't give a s**t that he was back with his ex even when I saw him every day and saw the two of them in action (she also worked at the same place, super healthy! We were all young.) I moved on, no big deal.
I know if I focused on all his bad qualities and actions, I could probably convince myself of #2-- he's a jerk and I'm better off without him-- and then go about the process that has worked for me in the past... though maybe it is impossible because being married as long as we have and with the two kids I will just never be able to fully feel I'm better off without him.
I look at that dang detachment thread every day. It isn't happening for me, at least not yet.
I've often put it this way. You are at the stove, cooking dinner. He comes in and says "I have something to tell you." You turn and face him. He says; "Last week I met with 7 women, and had an orgy in a hotel room with them." You, non-chalantly say: "Oh. Okay." Then turn back to stirring your green beans.
Steve-- so I had a dream last night that H told me he was on a date night with multiple women (weirdly he had borrowed my pants (??) and got a food stain on them, and I'd asked where the stain came from). He told me oh yeah, I was at date night, named random people he had been talking to and spilled something on my pants. I didn't care except about my pants, and then also felt like I *should* care that he was telling me that but didn't.
Does that count as a step in the right direction?
LOL I wish it did. But no, dreams don't really count. I had some doosies.
Wow may ! I tried to post other night and got error message . H walked in room so I had to put away phone so he doesn’t see DB site .
You are one tough cookie for somehow maintaining your composure with everything . Many hugs !!!!
Distance yourself . When he decided to go to another restaurant . You responded to most of his texts . Put some space in between or cut back . He’s confused . The longer he has you on the hook . The longer limbo is going to be .
H is still in contact with OP . He’s admitted this . You are not his friend when theres OP. You do not have to be angry . Detach and distance . More distance then you think you can do . You are the prize to be chased .He’s playing H most of the time . Sitting on couch with you . Asking about dinner . Messaging frequently. But still seeing and talking to OP.
Look at actions . This goes both ways . Good and bad . This was hard for me to realize . I had to look at bad actions as well .Yes he moved back in master bedroom . Yes he hasn’t moved out . Increased time together . But he also has continued to talk to OP . Meet with OP .
Hi everyone,
I need some help/tough love/advice.
Friday night, H initiated sex (again in the middle of the night, didn't last very long, seemed conflicted about it afterwards (I wasn't planning on reciprocating but got taken by surprise). Saturday night, we went to a party and came home late. He closed the bedroom door (sure sign from the past of wanting sex since we usually sleep with our bedroom door open), then suddenly left and went to sleep on the couch in the office. I said nothing. He left his pillow there in the morning.
Last night, after I went to bed, he came into the room and wanted an R talk. I tried to listen and validate but I did get sucked in somewhat. The gist is:
-- he's anxious and unhappy, this limbo is killing him, his IC says he needs to make a decision
-- he is still angry/sad about the past (cried when talking about me rejecting him sexually, angry that *now* I'm wanting to focus on our R after being consumed with the kids and ignoring our emotional/sexual bond for all these years)
-- he is in love with the AP and can't imagine having that kind of R with me again
-- he feels like if he tried to R with me, why would it be any different than it was before
-- he feels like he's been living the life I wanted, not his own life (for 16 years)
-- he has tried to cut off contact with the AP but they just can't because their emotional connection is so strong. They have tried several times since he told me about her in August but it doesn't last.
--She is really unhappy about what is going on and is basically waiting for him to "get his situation together." He repeated he is actively in love with her and if I could see in his head I would not want to be with him.
-- he doesn't understand why I would want to be with him anyway. He really leaned on this a lot.
-- he doesn't believe I could ever forgive him (said that a big part of him not wanting to try is because he worries I would hold this over his head for the rest of our R). He also doesn't believe he could forgive himself. He made this bed, our R is irrevocably broken, he doesn't want to miss the opportunity with AP.
-- but, he also says that this is not about her, it is about us.
-- he repeated his fantasy of him living next door or in a mother-in-law unit WITH AP and us all getting along. He thinks the kids are resilient and we can make this work. (I had a hard time validating this part-- definitely rolled my eyes and said I thought it was impossible and BS rather than saying I understood that is what he wanted. I tried to recover.)
-- his IC keeps telling him we get to "do whatever we want" in terms of developing what kind of co-parenting R we have in the future. He wants to go down this path but he isn't saying he is ready to pull the trigger quite yet to actual separation. He wants us to talk about what it might look like.
I listened and validated the best I could to the above. I said:
-- I asked him what kind of person did he want to be and what kind of story did he want to tell about his life
-- I told him I believed we could get through this and build a better marriage, not like the last one
-- For me, I felt I could forgive him with work for what he did to me in our marriage... but that I didn't think I could forgive him-- at least not where I am now-- if he broke up our family and did that to the kids. I could see myself able to be there *if* I felt like we had both truly tried to make the M work.
-- I know he feels like he has tried, tried years ago, is even trying now... but I don't think any of this is worthwhile or trying UNTIL the AP is out of the picture. I was very firm in stating my belief that we can't work on our relationship in a meaningful way-- whether towards a new MR or towards his vision of best friends/co-parents-- until his head was on our R and he went NC with AP.
-- I said I was not prepared to remain friends with him if he left, especially if I felt he left without actually trying to give our R 100%. I don't think he believes me on this.
--If he chose to go NC with AP, I would be willing to help him as I knew it would be very difficult. However, we would need to build in some transparency measures so that I could trust he actually was going NC.
--I asked him to think logically about what was going on and his choices, removing emotion from it. (I know I shouldn't have done this. I was definitely arguing for working on the MR, using his usual love of logical solutions as a means to get him to see my side.
Where we left it-- he slept in the office. We talked again this morning, more of the same. He got upset again about what I had done to him in the past (rejecting him sexually) and repeated why should he believe this time would be different, he finally is in a place where that doesn't hurt him and he feels he could move on and I'm opening the cage door to try to make him come back and promising it will be different this time. I said I understood why he felt like that and if he made the choice to R, it would have to be his decision and he would have to have faith that we could build a new MR. He again leaned on why would I want to be with him anyway.
I said (functioning on two nights of very, very little sleep, so forgive me) that he was underestimating the effect on the kids and did he want this to be the story of his life (and theirs if they ended up together)-- that he cheated on his wife with a 33 year old and broke up his marriage and family because of it. I repeated my belief that this wasn't trying until the affair was ended and they went NC, blocked phone numbers, etc., and that I didn't believe we could actually work on any sort of relationship together until he went NC with her and could focus on our R. I also said again that I did not imagine being friends with him after, especially if he was with AP, and that he was not thinking of the leverage he'd lose when he walked away-- things that I'm willing to do for him as my H but that I would have no reason to do once he is not. (This includes a major trip he wants to take with the girls, which I'm open to if we're together but if we are not I don't see a reason to let him take them for more than a week.)
We left it there. He agreed to talk to my coach-- i said it might be helpful for him to get the perspective of someone trained in affairs/infidelity rather than just his IC (he hasn't told anyone about all of this so no-one to talk to about it except for me and the AP, who he says he doesn't talk to about us because he doesn't want to.
HELP.
Wow, that's tough.
:He knows what he is doing is wrong and all that BS about what you did to him in the past is how he justifies it . The AP is a fantasy. This is something I know about as I once had a long distance EA like that. Once you get in to the reality and logistics of it, it all falls apart.
That said, he has to find this stuff out for himself. I can't even imagine dealing with all that but logically, I would say he needs to feel the consequences of actions, which means you are no longer his friend, and there will be a visitation schedule re the kids. He is going to have to lose a lot before he can let go of the fantasy, and it is a fantasy. It is going to suck hard, but IMO, it's time to call his bluff. You know from DB that debating and reasoning don't work. May, I am so sorry you're going through this. But I would read Bluwave's threads. She dealt with the same thing and it worked out for her. If you haven't read up on love vs. limerence, do so.
You don't deserve to have to put up with a H who lives in your house while claiming to love another woman.
One other thing, re that BS about if you saw what was in his head, you wouldn't want to be with him: he wants YOU to release him so he can walk away guilt free. Don't fall for that. Make HIM make the decision to walk away from his family.
So he said nothing new. And the cockamamie part about living with AP and everyone getting along shows me he is going to try to cake-eat. I am almost 100% certain this is about feeling stuck due to child-support (and possibly alimony), otherwise I think he'd probably already be gone.
Go back to the plan. GAL. 180s. Detach. And just give him time and space to figure his crap out.
Agree with Steve. I know you're too involved to see this but how ridiculous is that. Ask him if he'd be your friend and live next door as a parenting buddy if it were you involved with or living with some 33 year old stud out of state that you were in love with? Seriously, WTF are people thinking.
Hi May,
That must have been hard to hear. I am glad you brought up NC and not being friends. I am a firm believer in boundaries. They work.
Protect yourself. Set him free. Let him feel the lose. Most wait too long to do this.
When/If he comes back, you can work on MR2.0. Many have done this after the D paperwork finalized.
Use your time apart wisely and keep working on your personal growth.
May,
I am just now getting caught up after the weekend. Oh my goodness what a horrible couple of days you have had!
I feel like you handled all of those R talks with dignity and grace. You held your own and established so good boundaries. It s*cks so bad to hear those words "I'm in love with someone else and I want to be with him/her". I agree with the vets here as you should clearly let him make whatever decision he feels he needs to make - don't take the bait! You are so much stronger than when you started posting and I am rooting for you. Don't hesitate to reach out if you feel like you're spiraling in the coming days. It sounds like his head is a jumbled mess.
So many hugs and good vibes.
KG
Thanks so much you guys...
So he said nothing new. And the cockamamie part about living with AP and everyone getting along shows me he is going to try to cake-eat. I am almost 100% certain this is about feeling stuck due to child-support (and possibly alimony), otherwise I think he'd probably already be gone.
Go back to the plan. GAL. 180s. Detach. And just give him time and space to figure his crap out.
This is his D plan: I live in the house and the kids live with me. He pays half the mortgage, maybe we still are co-owners but he pays because the kids are living with me. Things "aren't all that different" -- I take care of the morning routines, he picks them up from school unless he's traveling and takes them to soccer/swimming or whatever. Brings them to the house. He would like us to eat dinner together but if that wasn't OK with me he would understand. He would then go to his own house. We would work out weekends/vacation time. I actually made more $$ than him this year so alimony isn't a thing and if we had 50/50 custody (I looked this up in my state-- I don't know that he knows this) whoever makes more $$ has to pay standard of living child support payments to the other, so I'd actually need to pay HIM. He says the kids are his #1 priority and he wants them to have a home, doesn't want them shuttling back and forth to a sad apartment so as long as we could agree to enough access for him and that he'd still have a house key etc he would be fine with them living with me in the house full time.
Agree with Steve. I know you're too involved to see this but how ridiculous is that. Ask him if he'd be your friend and live next door as a parenting buddy if it were you involved with or living with some 33 year old stud out of state that you were in love with? Seriously, WTF are people thinking.
Newbie, I actually did ask him how he would feel if the roles were reversed. He said he thought the biggest threat to his "vision" would be that I found someone new relatively quickly and the idea of someone else sleeping in his bed with me was very hard. But, that he would want me to be happy and as long as he still had enough access to the children he would be OK. He also did accept that his vision is very unlikely but felt since I have been able to share my vision (M2.0) he should be able to share his.
I don't know why, but I feel like this all would be so much easier to deal with if it were just the two of us dealing with our issues together-- maybe we can work it out, maybe we can't-- but having this AP involved is somehow so much more painful.
Hi May,
That must have been hard to hear. I am glad you brought up NC and not being friends. I am a firm believer in boundaries. They work.
Protect yourself. Set him free. Let him feel the lose. Most wait too long to do this.
When/If he comes back, you can work on MR2.0. Many have done this after the D paperwork finalized.
Use your time apart wisely and keep working on your personal growth.
R2C/Steve, I've been spending a lot of time last night and today thinking of what's next and what my next steps are.
My boundaries:
-- He must go NC with the AP in order for us to talk about and work on our relationship in a meaningful way, whether to try to R or to work through what his dream separation/co-parenting would look like. I am only willing to have the latter conversation if there isn't another party involved.
-- If we separate without the above, we will not be friends.
Now this isn't a boundary and is probably a mistake, but I have expressed to him that my strong preference is for us work on our R together seriously, with NC, for a period of time like six months. At the end of that if either of us really can't see M2.0, I believe I would feel like I gave our M the best shot possible, did everything I could, and would be open to other possibilities, like friendly D. (Even writing this out I see it is not DBing but it is what I did tell him.)
In thinking through what might happen next, I see three possibilities:
1. He says he's willing to try NC with AP, provides enough transparency that I believe him. Not actually sure where this takes us since I don't think he'd really be ready to R mentally unless he has some come-to-Jesus moment. I did agree to help him in this case as I know it would be difficult and he has only really tried in a pretty half-a**ed way so far IMO. (Though he would beg to differ.) In this case just keep focusing on DB-ing, GALing, detaching and being a WOAFWL?
2. He says he isn't willing to go NC with AP and says he wants to move out. I let him (OMG that was hard even to just type!!) and keep to my boundaries. Get a separation agreement, research/meet with a few D lawyers. Figure out what to say to friends and family (I'll want to throw him under the bus... figuring that isn't so good in the long term for DBing though, right?). Detach, focus on me and the kids, and maybe he comes back. Get a dog (the one bright light since H doesn't like dogs and my kids are dying for one).
3. He says he isn't willing to go NC with AP but doesn't say he wants to move out. In this case, I would stick to the focus on DB-ing, GAL, detaching? Do not be his friend even though we still live under the same roof? Trying to figure out my path here. I strongly believe he wants me to be the one to ask him to leave to alleviate his guilt and I refuse to do so.
4. Nothing happens-- neither of us initiates an R talk and this situation continues until he does. I do the same thing as #3 above.
My major worry is this-- I don't know that I'll want him back if he leaves-- if he makes that choice to walk out the door, for whatever reason that is crossing such a major boundary for me, way worse than carrying on an A. I think it is because it feels like something he is actively doing to our family and our kids vs to me alone. I *guess* I could imagine myself being willing to take him back for the kids if and when that ever happened, but I feel if he walks and I need to start telling people what is going on, I won't be strong enough to be honest about what is actually happening AND admit that I'd take him back. I either need to not really share (which would be probably impossible for me-- I've been having a difficult time enough keeping this from my close friends) or tell folks what is really happening in which case I feel that I will move towards believing I'm better off without him and screw him for doing this to me and the kids. It is part of the reason I'm so fearful of him moving this to a place where people will need to know what is going on-- that I will no longer be able to stand for the M once that happens and I am now the one failing my children. (That. Is. So. Hard.)
I'm really feeling awful. Hopefully I can get some sleep tonight. Any other thoughts or suggestions? What am I missing?
Caligirl, Kristin, I don't know what I'd do without you two. THANK YOU for being there.
This is his D plan: I live in the house and the kids live with me. He pays half the mortgage, maybe we still are co-owners but he pays because the kids are living with me. Things "aren't all that different" -- I take care of the morning routines, he picks them up from school unless he's traveling and takes them to soccer/swimming or whatever. Brings them to the house. He would like us to eat dinner together but if that wasn't OK with me he would understand. He would then go to his own house. We would work out weekends/vacation time. I actually made more $$ than him this year so alimony isn't a thing and if we had 50/50 custody (I looked this up in my state-- I don't know that he knows this) whoever makes more $$ has to pay standard of living child support payments to the other, so I'd actually need to pay HIM. He says the kids are his #1 priority and he wants them to have a home, doesn't want them shuttling back and forth to a sad apartment so as long as we could agree to enough access for him and that he'd still have a house key etc he would be fine with them living with me in the house full time.
may -
Sorry you are going through this. Your H sounds completely all over the place.
You want to work on the MR, and he wants a D where he can come and go as he pleases, eat dinner like a family regularly, and have a key to your house. You are not even on the same planet right now in terms of your wishes.
I have a 5th option for you to consider - you'll notice I cribbed a lot from your 2nd option:
5. You ask him to leave. If he says he is NC with AP, demand full transparency to prove it. Insist on MC as part of the plan. Keep to your boundaries. If he does not do NC and MC, get a separation agreement, research/meet with a few D lawyers. Figure out what to say to friends and family. You don't owe anybody a reason if you don't want to share it. Detach, focus on you and the kids, and maybe he comes back. Get a dog for your kids.
I know you don't want to alleviate his guilt by asking him to leave. ALL WAS's play this guilt-alleviation game. You can't control how he feels or responds. One way or another, WAS's tend to find a way to minimize their guilt... it is human nature.
I'm not suggesting you ask him to leave, just consider all the options on the table.
As far as worrying if you'd take him back if he leaves, again nobody deserves to hear your reasons (if you think that would prevent a future R). It is as personal a matter as you want it to be. Nobody knows how your sitch will play out. Maybe there is a scenario where you do take him back, maybe not. NOTHING is a "no turning back" moment in these sitches. It can feel that way, and leave you feeling powerless. People R all the time years down the road.
Hang in there, you will get through this.
I have a 5th option for you to consider - you'll notice I cribbed a lot from your 2nd option:
5. You ask him to leave. If he says he is NC with AP, demand full transparency to prove it. Insist on MC as part of the plan. Keep to your boundaries. If he does not do NC and MC, get a separation agreement, research/meet with a few D lawyers. Figure out what to say to friends and family. You don't owe anybody a reason if you don't want to share it. Detach, focus on you and the kids, and maybe he comes back. Get a dog for your kids.
I know you don't want to alleviate his guilt by asking him to leave. ALL WAS's play this guilt-alleviation game. You can't control how he feels or responds. One way or another, WAS's tend to find a way to minimize their guilt... it is human nature.
I'm not suggesting you ask him to leave, just consider all the options on the table.
Hi Unchien,
Thank you so much for commenting. I've been following your thread and also really appreciate your insights on people's threads. (And your last post today is golden. I am super impressed.) I think you're right, option 5 should be on the table. I am not sure I will/can do it... but I think I might get there if DBing in the house gets too difficult and he refuses to make any steps. However, for my own sake and how I see myself as a mom, I don't think I can be the one to have pushed the move-out. Not letting him alleviate any guilt is a side benefit
I started researching D and child support, which makes me feel a bit better just to have done something productive and protective for myself.
As far as worrying if you'd take him back if he leaves, again nobody deserves to hear your reasons (if you think that would prevent a future R). It is as personal a matter as you want it to be. Nobody knows how your sitch will play out. Maybe there is a scenario where you do take him back, maybe not. NOTHING is a "no turning back" moment in these sitches. It can feel that way, and leave you feeling powerless. People R all the time years down the road.
This is helpful. I think the feeling of powerlessness is a big issue for me. I also know that my first reaction will be to throw him under the bus to as many people as possible, but I'm trying to be thoughtful about what that might mean.
One question that has been on my mind-- he is offering at this point that I would have full physical custody of the children. This is my number one priority along with financial security, and when I just did the math I think child support payments would be enough to cover all or a significant part of my mortgage. He just got a raise which should bring his income more than mine next year-- last time I did these calculations, at 50/50 custody (assuming that was what he would have wanted), I would actually have had to pay HIM which was going to make my head completely explode.
If he is truly committed to having the kids have their home here with me and he would get visitation, I'm wondering if to play the long game I should be as nice as possible to secure that... or when we really get into the D situation he'll come to his senses and want 50/50 and we would probably have to sell the house to afford that?
I was afraid to actually think seriously about D, but now that I'm getting into it somewhat, I think it might help me with detachment.
Another question for you-- MC when the spouse isn't actually committed to R in their heart-- I've been thinking about this somewhat because I am asking for it knowing even if he said yes tomorrow, he wouldn't be fully into it. But if he were actually NC and willing to do it, is it necessarily a bad thing? I *would* like to talk to a professional about how to talk to the kids if we get to that place.
However, for my own sake and how I see myself as a mom, I don't think I can be the one to have pushed the move-out. Not letting him alleviate any guilt is a side benefit
Understood. Keep the focus on your needs.
I started researching D and child support, which makes me feel a bit better just to have done something productive and protective for myself.
Knowledge is power... great step. I also educated myself on the process and felt so much better.
If he is truly committed to having the kids have their home here with me and he would get visitation, I'm wondering if to play the long game I should be as nice as possible to secure that... or when we really get into the D situation he'll come to his senses and want 50/50 and we would probably have to sell the house to afford that?
I'm not a legal expert and I know this can vary by state. If he did offer you full physical custody for now, how would you secure that? In a legal document?
I suggest you assume there is a reasonable chance he will want 50/50 at some point, and make decisions accordingly. Even his current fantasy of giving you 100% but having dinners and free will to come and go as he pleases mean he is not really thinking of this as a normal 100% custody situation. He may not have researched the finances to the degree that you have yet. You'd be surprised how unknowledgeable some WAS'es are about the D process given they sometimes have several years head start on the process. You may know more than he does at this point about the law. Or... he could be playing games. Either way, you are doing the right thing by educating and protecting yourself.
I was afraid to actually think seriously about D, but now that I'm getting into it somewhat, I think it might help me with detachment.
Exactly. It also helped me to talk to D'd friends and realize their lives went on and they were not miserable. You start to realize you can handle whatever life throws at you, and your happiness is within your control whatever happens.
Another question for you-- MC when the spouse isn't actually committed to R in their heart-- I've been thinking about this somewhat because I am asking for it knowing even if he said yes tomorrow, he wouldn't be fully into it. But if he were actually NC and willing to do it, is it necessarily a bad thing? I *would* like to talk to a professional about how to talk to the kids if we get to that place.
MC will not be helpful unless he is committed to going. He may agree to go as a way to help bring closure. That happens often.
If he does go, I suggest you keep the focus in MC 100% on the MR. If you want help on how to talk with the kids, or work on co-parenting, find a separate counselor. Personally I think talking to the kids is straightforward - you can find information online, and all of it is common sense. Whether or not your H would actually follow the recommendations is another matter, and that is something you can't control.
What a piece of work this AP is. I remember when I was much younger I had the grand opportunity (ugh) to get involved with a married partner at my firm who had little kids. He was obviously in MLC (45 or so, I was about 27). He was smitten. I still have a tape he recorded and sent me. Willing to walk away from his family. A complete fantasy. I never responded to him. What kind of woman gets involved with a guy like that? I know it's hard to contemplate at this point but this thing your H has with the AP will flame out. The only issue is how you will feel when that happens.
may22, you shouldn't worry now about whether you will take him back if he leaves. tackle one thing at a time. And you are not powerless! No matter what happens, you don't owe anybody ANYTHING! once you are detached enough, you probably wouldn't care to throw him under the bus anyway. Also I know that you also want to put your children first, so that alone would be a big deterrence for you to do something like that. But again, in my opinion I feel like that's still a little far out for you to worry about.
Update...
-- yesterday I did not respond to any text messages that weren't necessary-- all exchanges business only. I ignored one reminder to get the girls and only responded to a second check that I had them.
-- he came home, sat down on the couch and chatted with me about his day, asked me about mine. I shared a little drama at work (maybe that was a DB fail) but I was actually feeling rather detached since I started researching D. It wasn't for his benefit (like an attempt to connect), it was for mine.
-- in the MB, he had made the bed really nicely during the day (and done laundry, amazing) and put his pillow back. (When he was in the office previously he always left his pillow there but put the futon back every morning, so the kids didn't know.) I went to bed a little on the early side, he sat on the couch and watched TV. He came in (I was half asleep but aware) got ready for bed, took the pillow and slept in the office. I can't lie, at this point there was a part of me hoping he would just get back into the bed even though I *know* that isn't a good idea. I think he does need space to figure all this sh*t out.
--I think I am FINALLY at a place where I'm starting to internalize the idea that I don't want him if he doesn't want me.
--I still am angry that he made these choices when we were in MC and technically trying to work on our M (one of the things he told me was he was kind of testing himself when he first met AP since he found her attractive-- I actually found all these flirty texts between them from right after they first met. That just feels so wrong and pathetic to me. I get he was hurting but still.)
--I also still feel like the biggest boundary for me will be actually leaving and hurting the children-- everything else is forgivable up till then-- but am also starting to see that we may never have the kind of R I want unless he has some sort of come to Jesus moment or hits rock bottom. Does he have to move out for that to happen? (I feel you guys are going to say yes, probably.)
--Again, I'm wrestling with how I approach a S in terms of what I tell people. I definitely think that if people know what he did, he's not going to want to R. But I also feel like I'll be able to handle this so much better if I share what is going on with people who matter to me. I wonder how much of this is also me wanting him to experience the depth of consequences what he has/is doing, and that isn't a good reason. This will take me some time to process and I would welcome any advice or thoughts.
--This morning, he came in before the girls woke up and said "good morning!" in a super bright voice. I said good morning (did not match his tone) and he was immediately-- what? are you OK? what is going on? I was like, nothing, I said good morning. He said he was cold and then got in bed next to me in his spot, watched a news video I was watching. He offered to take the kids into school and I accepted.
--He's texted me this morning already once, something that didn't require a response (just sending me an interesting photo of a friend) and I didn't respond.
Plan this week is to keep focusing on myself, my kids, GAL and detach. Will start working on meditation again.
Unchien, good point about the 50/50-- I am dreaming to imagine he'd actually be OK with that, I think. I need to keep researching and thinking about the best way to move forward.
Newbie-- I KNOW. We talked about her yesterday morning and I said I just don't understand what she is thinking. He said "she thinks I'm pretty great" and she doesn't understand why I would treat him the way I did and let the MR fail. I totally want to barf. One of the things he told me the other night is that he didn't want his life to be a cliche and he felt he was just living one out with me, all his HS friends are just doing the same thing, and I was like are you kidding me? Leaving your wife for a 33 year old when you just turned 40 is the biggest cliche of them all-- and that will be part of your life story forever. You falling in love with this young woman who thinks you're just so great is like the definition of sad MLC cliche. But he doesn't see that... he thinks this is like it isn't optimal the way they met but life isn't perfect and their connection is just so special. When I take myself and my pain out of this, it is just sad.
Woosa-- thanks, I think you're right-- need to tackle one thing at a time. I do think it would be helpful for me to choose someone I trust to talk about this with, and honestly he doesn't need to know that they know at this point either. That could both give me a release valve and support without undermining the possibility of R. Assuming I want it. (Who am I kidding... I still do.)
OMG. What a load of stinking horse manure. He'll learn.
Another question and advice needed.
One thing that has been really bothering me all this time is vacations. We all love to travel and I think he is incapable of planning a family vacation as it feels too much like pretending or whatever. We had a week in August with no coverage for the girls and I had been playing with all these ideas of places to go and he was being weird and not interested... he ended up booking a cabin not far from our house for a few nights (not a real trip I think in his mind) and it was the night we got home from that that he BD'd me about the affair.
Anyway, the girls have a two week break around Christmas and I really don't want to waste the opportunity to do something fun with them. I haven't brought it up (pressure) but if it has come up in conversation I've said I thought we should go somewhere fun. I had been forwarding him cheap ticket email alerts but he never responded so I stopped.
Then he decided to sign our D9's team up for a soccer tournament the weekend between Xmas and New Years-- he had mentioned it to me a couple of times, I said I had wanted to possibly go somewhere during that time frame and then didn't pursue the conversation. He then texted me last week that he was "really compelled to do the tournament and didn't want to let the team down".
I was totally triggered but waited to respond and then said "OK. Do you want to talk about it? Sounds like it is important to you and I'm sure D9 and the team will enjoy it. For me, I feel like I don't have a lot of opportunity to take fun time off with the kids, they are out of school and I have the vacation time, which I won't have if I leave this job (at least not immediately). That is where I'm coming from. But it would be possible to do both-- take the following week off. Maybe we can talk about it tonight." (Oh yeah, have I mentioned that my job is totally coming apart at the seams? When it rains it pours!!)
He responded with some nice texts saying we should prioritize fun for me and the girls and then later in person said he didn't necessarily even need to be at the tournament, the assistant coach could handle-- I was like whatever, or we have the whole next week. Felt like a nice compromise to me, but we hadn't really talked about it again and I've been kind of avoiding it because it does seem like pressure.
Finally over the weekend I started thinking maybe I would just plan a trip for me and the girls and he would be welcome to come, or not... but I want to live my life and feel like sitting around at home for a week because I'm scared about the effect it will have on him is stupid. We were at a party on Sunday with a bunch of other families and he says hey what do you think about (city) on December 28? Oh wait, that is the tournament day... I said well we could go afterwards (though that city wasn't exactly my first choice) and he was like no, I was thinking for me-- his football team has a bowl game. I rolled my eyes and said to the friends around me that OMG, this was so annoying, I've been trying to put together a trip for that week and he never wants to talk about it and now he just wants to go to an f-ing bowl game. Not me at my best (he was right there and everyone laughed at him) but I was super annoyed.
Then today he comes up and wants my advice— he needs to spend $200 in actual tickets to secure his airline status for next year or could pay $450. He was like, "I want to pay, I think it is totally worth it for me (I beg to differ but kept my mouth shut) OR, I was thinking I could just take a cheap flight somewhere between now and Dec 31 to get the miles." I said OK.
Then he goes “or, these two weeks coming up while I have the kids I could take them...” and I was immediately FURIOUS. (Also the first week is CHRISTMAS.) I cut him off and just said NO. He said in a really hostile voice whatever, forget it. He was super annoyed that I wouldn’t even talk about it, and this is something that has been a major issue for us (and was brought up extensively on Sunday— that I don’t let him talk, everything we do is my idea, our entire marriage has been lived by my rules, blah blah blah.)
He huffed off to his office, I took a few deep breaths and did a 180— went to him and apologized for not letting him finish. I guess in an ideal world I would have asked him what he was trying to say first but I told him that I was bothered because I had expressed to him that I was really hoping to do something fun with the kids that week and that I had in fact been thinking about just planning something for me and the girls since he didn’t seem interested.
He apologized and acknowledged the vacation time thing. He asked what I had been thinking, I told him a couple of ideas, he extrapolated on one of them (I could take D7 earlier and he could join with D9 after the tournament). I said sure, maybe. He said he had actually just been thinking he would fly with the girls for a day and then turn around and come back. I said that doesn’t make any sense, why would you pay for their tickets to do that (and have the kids on a plane for 10 hours in two days for no reason) and he said yes, of course, I don’t know what I was thinking. (Just another example of his insane thought processing right now.)
So. What to do next? I had kind of come to the place of either planning a short trip just for me and the girls and inviting him to come if he wanted. Or I’d also resigned myself to NOT going anywhere, that if the pressure of a vacation is too much, maybe it is worthwhile in the long haul to have not taken advantage of this possible vacation time in order to preserve the possibility of our R.
If I planned something just for me and the girls and invited him to come if he wanted, I’m pretty sure he would accept, but then the result is basically the same as pressuring him into a family trip. (And truthfully up until now, I have wanted a family trip more for what it represented— an illusion of commitment, one last fun family trip as a family of four, the fantasy that it would show him what he’d be missing if he left, and somehow to be completely honest I also feel like it sticks it to the AP a bit, showing her that we are still a family and he’s choosing to spend his time with us, and maybe that would cause her to back off.)
Now, I’m confused about what to do. If I only worry about myself and what would make me happy, I’d plan a trip. But it might not end up being the best DB-ing strategy. Any advice?
Plan that trip girl! H is welcome to come, but leave it at that and leave it to him to procure his own ticket/travel to join. You said 3 different times above that if you were worrying about yourself and what you want that you would go - so GO! Obviously, work with H to coordinate schedules with the girls and not infringe on his time with them during break, but start planning none the less. And don't beat yourself up too much for losing it emotionally at the party, we've all been there.
I second what KristinG said. I’m actually in the same boat as you. But my problem is that I’ve so been emotionally drained that I don’t know if I can actually plan a vacation..lol. If I do plan something, I also plan on leaving the invite open as a courtesy to him. Honestly I know I’d enjoy a vaca better without H around.
Believe nothing of what they say and only half of what they do
He’s in fantasy land . Saying you are going to live next door to each other - non sense . Keep it short and simple . We can be cordial when needed for the children . You are like me . A talker . Just zip it up a bit . So hard !!!
Has he yet to make any move on moving out ?
I find the pillow thing interesting. It’s like his tester . I’ll put in on the bed . Take it in my office to sleep . I’m cold so I’m coming in the bed . Seems more like he’s baiting you to see how you react . Waiting for a nasty response so he has his reason to leave . Funny he got in bed when he thought you were a bit short with your good morning .
If he brings up moving out say if that is what you feel will make you happy I will not stand in your way . Smile and walk away .
As far as separation . You will protect yourself and the children . I would not give him much more .
For now - pull way back . Get busy and get even happier . Smile a lot and pay little attention to his craziness.
I would book the trip without him . Let him know you booked it . If he wants to join he can join .
Nothing much to report. Doing *ok* at DBing but not perfect in my behaviors. Struggling on the detachment front again
Was *pretty* good on texts yesterday--did respond relatively quickly to a confirmation text that I was picking up the kids, and added that I was at home btw. He texted back why? and when I didn't respond for a few minutes called (internet wasn't working at work so I came to work from home). He said he just wanted to make sure there wasn't anything wrong (he ALWAYS has an excuse for why he calls me). I probably didn't need to add where I was-- definitely did that to get a reaction. Oh well.
I picked up the kids from school and took them to Christmas shopping and out to dinner. We had a blast, though I had this low-level anxiety in the back of my mind the whole time. I hate that I am unable to be 100% present for them right now-- this is something I really want to work on, getting the joy back of being 100% in the moment with them and letting the anxiety of what is happening to our family go since it is out of my control.
I did keep them out a bit later than necessary, thinking it would be good to bring them home after he was back from a meeting. He called me at 8:10 pm asking if we were on our way home, I said yes... he said OK, he waited until 8 to call but then decided to call to make sure everything was OK. (excuse again.) Turned out he had been home since 7:15, which he told me rather pointedly. He is rarely home by himself without the kids in the evenings, because we're either all together or he's the one with them at practice or whatever. I'm guessing it didn't feel great.
He watched TV and I did online Christmas shopping-- he came and sat close to me to review the purchases and stayed there for a bit. I went to bed early, he came in to get ready for bed, woke me up (and I laid there totally wondering if he was going to get in bed or not) then he went into the office. I tried to go back to sleep for awhile and couldn't. I did then go into his office and say if he's going to sleep there and go to bed after me, to please get his sh*t out of the bedroom and use the bathroom before I go to bed so he doesn't wake me up. he was like... that doesn't seem like a new problem (like why is that an issue all of a sudden)? I said because it wakes me up and I don't know where you are going to sleep, and then it is hard for me to get back to sleep. he said OK. I know I shouldn't have done this. Baby steps.
So now. I did start planning a vacation and looking at tickets, etc. The problem is the place that would make the most sense to go-- where I've been talking about with him on and off for the past few months-- would be weird to go without him for a number of reasons, and given his need to take a trip somewhere it feels a lot like I'm just doing this to secure a family vacation. I looked into alternate locations but nothing really makes sense from a $$ perspective, plus it would exclude him completely because he needs to fly on a particular airline to get his miles. UGH.
And for me and my detachment-- I feel one step forward, two steps back. Still desperately holding onto hope that he'll choose his family over the AP. It really isn't even about me... I just can't imagine how he could possibly choose to hurt the children like this if he decides to go. That feels unforgivable to me. Yet he feels like I only want to make it work for the children and only want to make it work with him because of them-- he just happens to be the man standing in front of me.
I just posted on U's thread about waiting until after Christmas to deal with this, and I'm going to try to do the same (excepting whatever the decisions might be about the potential vacation). I just want to be able to not have this on my mind all the time. How I get there is not totally clear to me right now. I ping pong between deep breathing and reminding myself I can't control him, I don't need him to be happy-- then a few minutes later panic and anger and praying that AP will find love with someone else and leave H alone or that H will somehow realize that he doesn't want to be this person. GALing is also hard right now because we have so many family commitments together.
Question-- I've been toying with the idea today of asking him to just put this all on hold until after the holidays-- can he commit to NC through the holidays and we just focus on giving our kids a great Christmas?
Or should I just s*ck it up and not say anything unless he starts an R talk? The main reason I want the above is to manage my own anxiety, but asking him for it just demonstrates my own anxiety to him... at the same time, taking the pressure off could help. The last time we did this (agreed to just concentrate on being friends) things got a lot better, but he was unable to stick to NC with AP (and didn't tell me since he wants to pretend she isn't really the issue).
Also, I think the week with my whole family was honestly really damaging and he withdrew a lot. He said one thing that week taught him is that he wouldn't be missed. I feel like the more distance we can get from that the better before digging back into all of this. I know his IC is pressuring him to make a decision and he feels like his mental health is suffering in this limbo.
Question-- I've been toying with the idea today of asking him to just put this all on hold until after the holidays-- can he commit to NC through the holidays and we just focus on giving our kids a great Christmas?
I would say no. What happens when he fails to meet the commitment? In asking you'd be relying on him to follow through with something that he already shows problems with. I wouldn't give him that power.
The main reason I want the above is to manage my own anxiety, but asking him for it just demonstrates my own anxiety to him... at the same time, taking the pressure off could help. The last time we did this (agreed to just concentrate on being friends) things got a lot better, but he was unable to stick to NC with AP (and didn't tell me since he wants to pretend she isn't really the issue).
You answered yourself. He was unable to stick to NC - what makes you think it'd be different this time? If he agrees it'd only make your feel better temporarily, relieving you of your anxiety temporarily - at the cost of giving him power to fail you again.
The holiday season is tough. Christmas is around the corner, but for me it feels like if I rely on what he's doing/feeling/planning then things are in flux EVERYDAY. I bought the children's presents & wrapped them myself. All without expecting him/waiting for him to be involved (we used to at least wrap the presents together). At this point I realized it's pointless to even think that "H will do what's best for the kids" - because his actions already proved that it's not true. I'm counting on what I have control over, and H is definitely not part of the equation.
The holiday season is tough. Christmas is around the corner, but for me it feels like if I rely on what he's doing/feeling/planning then things are in flux EVERYDAY. I bought the children's presents & wrapped them myself. All without expecting him/waiting for him to be involved (we used to at least wrap the presents together). At this point I realized it's pointless to even think that "H will do what's best for the kids" - because his actions already proved that it's not true. I'm counting on what I have control over, and H is definitely not part of the equation.
Woosa, you're good. I'm really impressed. It seems like you've really dropped all your expectations with your H. I am definitely doing better with that than I was, but I'm still not there.
I almost feel it would be easier if he just made up his mind and actually left-- then at least I could have clearer rules to follow. It was only recently when I began to actually believe he might really do it that I have started down the detachment path.
Also, I hate this this limbo stage where he hasn't decided to actually leave, even though it is clear that is the direction he wants to go, but he hasn't actually said or done it yet. He could also move down to the basement (we have a studio down there for guests) instead of just sleeping in the office which would be a pretty easy step for him to do at any given time, but he hasn't taken that yet either. It has definitely been mentioned over this whole time frame as something he's thinking about, but he can't seem to pull the trigger. Anyway. All that to say this is a sh**ty situation to be in. I guess in the long term it is better than him actually walking out and I should be grateful for the gift of time, but it is soooo hard to manage myself through it.
What if I dropped the NC request and just said can we put a hold on R talks or decisions until after the holidays? He can stay in the office, I won't wonder every night if this is the night he is going to come back-- but I also won't be worried every night we sit down on the couch after the kids are down that he's going to the next BD and can just focus on the kids. I so desperately want to be able to be present for them right now and my mind just keeps spinning.
I feel you. I want to kick my H out entirely everyday. But you’re in a tougher situation because your H actually still lives in the house. Mine is already out but without all his stuff. I also question why wouldn’t my H want to move out entirely? Get his own place where he has all his clothes, and make things more convenient for himself. I sometimes think maybe he’s taking advantage of me because I’m still doing his laundry. Lol! But I don’t mind, with these kids I have to do laundry almost everyday. It doesn’t bother me. Anyways, I know there is no logic in my H’s thinking. Maybe just like yours, he can’t pull the trigger or a whatever. I just try to take it day by day and see how things go.
No! Don’t even mention not doing R talk. That’s mentioning R talk.
Thanks, Woosa! Funny, it is all a matter of degrees. Although maybe you should stop doing his laundry.
UGH, I am so bad at DBing. Yesterday D9 broke her arm at school. Now will be in a cast for six weeks which takes one of my vacation options off the table-- the one that would definitely be just for us, and would not hook into H's desire to get some more miles before the end of the year.
D9 came into my bed very early in the morning to snuggle and talk. She'd clearly already spoken to H who was sleeping in the office because she didn't ask where he was and said "Daddy said" xyz about our elf on the shelf this morning (which neither of us had moved, parent fail). I said is Daddy working? She said no, Daddy is sleeping, he couldn't sleep so went to the office.
I was totally triggered and upset, thinking she is going to see right through this the next time she finds him sleeping in the office. So I did say something to him this morning-- asked him if he knew why our good friends always travel for Christmas and never celebrate at home. He said no, why? I said because the dad doesn't like Christmas because his own father walked out on his mother on Christmas (a story we both know-- I think H just didn't realize the connection to why they travel, or the only year they stayed they spent it with us rather than either of their own families).
H said I hear what you're saying. They are not us. But I hear what you're saying. We should talk about it. He then asked me to schedule the appt with my coach and said his IC wants to talk to me. Also, that he thought no matter what the two of us should get into a room with a counselor (which he'd previously told me he didn't want to do). I said you just said you didn't want that? He said no I didn't... I guess I must have misunderstood.
I repeated my boundary that I didn't think anything productive could happen until he went NC and he gave me this incredulous and pitying look. I think he thinks I'm trying to control him by setting that boundary. But I truly don't think that an H gets to have an affair with a significantly younger woman, leave the M for her, and then get his ex W as his good friend. It just doesn't work that way.
I feel like seeing his IC is just giving him the opportunity to BD me in front of her.
Sorry to hear that your daughter broke her arm! I'm surprised I haven't had to deal with any broken limbs with my kids yet ha!!
I agree with you on insisting your boundary. Maybe you could tell him that after thinking about his suggestion, you decided that you do not want to participate until he goes NC with OW. If it's anything about your children, you guys can do it separately with your coaches.
I will think about the laundry part. I feel petty for telling my H I won't do his laundry anymore though. Do you do your H's laundry? I can't believe we're talking about laundry. lol. anyways, that's about the only thing that I do for him nowadays, I'm really trying to stay away from the role of his "caretaker."
I will think about the laundry part. I feel petty for telling my H I won't do his laundry anymore though. Do you do your H's laundry? I can't believe we're talking about laundry. lol. anyways, that's about the only thing that I do for him nowadays, I'm really trying to stay away from the role of his "caretaker."
Ha! I stopped doing H's laundry several years ago. He got angry when I would accidentally dry shirts he wanted hung and threw big fits. I would get mad and defensive and then if he accidentally screwed up something of mine I'd get mad back at him. Finally I said fine, let's just do our own laundry going forward, which has actually worked out well. We sometimes do each other's now and this is an area where he has done a big 180-- much better at anger management if these kind of situations come up. And me too-- I no longer get defensive if I screw up, I can just apologize and mean it. This is part of the reason I'm having so much trouble detaching-- our R and communication about non-R related stuff is actually the best it has ever been, and these long-standing issues I had had with him about everything from anger management to helping out more around the house are significantly decreased, if not gone.
Do you need to tell him? Or can you just stop? When he asks about it say you've been busy.
Ugh. A week of hardly any sleep, totally anxiety driven with him back sleeping in the office. Lost all my composure last and entered into an R talk resulting in me arguing for trying to R, repeating over and over that we can't work on our R (in whatever direction it goes) in a meaningful way while he is still in contact with AP as my boundary, which pisses him off because he feels I'm just trying to control him again and get what I want. He wants so badly for me to say yes, I'll work on a friendly D regardless of whether or not she is in the picture, totally scared of the thought of losing this possibility with AP for true love.
Big fail. I feel I have zero self-control.
End result: he thinks he is in a no-win situation, same old stuff he's been saying about his choices being D and possible love with AP or passionless M with me. Differences from previous R talks-- he said he is scared to try with me again because he is afraid to open himself up to be hurt again; he got angry about the sexless M at me-- very angry (previously had been like "I've grieved it and it is over," I'm not mad anymore); said logically my arguments were very compelling but he just doesn't WANT to try and he will never want to have a sexual R with me again. (He doesn't know why he initiates sex in the middle of the night. I think this is the main reason he wanted to move back to the office.)
He said if I just drag this out long enough I'll get what I want as she's close to walking. (She wants to stop too but this thing is just "so strong"). That he is monogamous emotionally now with her and feels about her like he did about me in the beginning of our R. A lot of blame surfaced for me in sexually rejecting him, like I should have thought of this consequence when I didn't give him what he needed years ago-- it is my fault he was in a position to pursue someone else emotionally.
He wants to know how he is supposed to believe it would be different if we tried to R.
He agreed to come back to the bedroom and give this a rest till after the holidays. (Also he remembered his parents are coming in early January for two weeks, so he "can't move to the basement.") He is considering trying to go NC with AP but definitely not in a transparency mode (meaning no way it will succeed). He scheduled a session with my coach and wants to see a MC. I did agree to go see his IC together, if for no other reason than because I think it right now an echo chamber for him to get validation for his depiction of me and our R with his IC, and me meeting her breaks up that dynamic if only a tiny amount.
Back to square one. I deserve the 2x4s.
Hi May,
I’ve been following your thread, and I feel for you so much. I have lots of thoughts and opinions, and I’ll come back and share them when I can. But I’m going to comment on Bluewave’s thread and request that she respond here. Her sitch had some similarities to yours and to mine, and she has a lot of wisdom and really good advice to offer. I wish I’d taken more of her advice when she gave it to me
Don’t be too hard on yourself! You are putting up with a LOT of extraordinary hurtful stuff here. You’re doing amazingly well.
Hi Hope,
Thanks so much... I've been following your thread too. Would love your thoughts and advice as well as BluWave's-- have followed her as well and really appreciate her advice and thoughts. It is really helpful to hear from the LBWs-- seems like while the general situations are similar with WWs/WHs, there is a lot that seems fairly specific advice for LBHs.
I know intellectually that this is just a step, if he does move out, and I'll be fine... and I also know intellectually that making him feel forced into choosing the MR is not the path to actual R... but he is someone who always justifies every decision after the fact, and I'm 99% sure if he walks that is it... he'll never be able to admit it was the wrong choice and will build up a whole narrative about how this was the best thing that could have happened to him unless he hits absolute rock bottom. Or even if he does-- he's been close to that before and always walks out the other end feeling like it was an opportunity for post-traumatic growth. He even told me he told his IC that even though this decision making process is agonizing and he feels like he's in a no-win situation that he knows on the other side of the decision he'll be fine and will make it be the right choice. (So I'm like WTF then why don't you make the choice that includes living with your children? And he is like, I already subscribed to that magazine and don't want to read it again. He is really still so angry about the sex, and lack of physical/emotional connection. Says I can't just ignore his pain for years and then one day decide oh wait... I do still want that toy I left out on the driveway for recycling to pick up.)
I guess he could have just walked without telling me every f***ing thing going on in his head-- he didn't have to tell me about AP in the first place and I know a lot of LBSs find out after the fact-- but it is so painful to hear him talking like this. He told me last night that he used to find me sexy when he watched me at work, and he doesn't anymore-- sees me confident, doing my thing, feels proud of me but that part is dead for him.
He also told me he is talking to her almost every day. Which makes me crazy.
I am just disappointed in myself for giving into temptation to get into an R talk. I asked him if he really wanted to lose his best friend through all of this. He said I don't... I just don't want to f**k her anymore.
I'm trying to figure out how I will handle the next, probably inevitable step of him moving out. He's still saying he wants me to live here with the children and he'll help pay for it-- making sure I get to wake up every morning with the kids is his "gift to me" even though he would be so sad about it too. I also just don't see that lasting.
Anyway... any advice on how to act TODAY and for the next few weeks, plus how to prepare myself for the next big step. And his parents coming to stay here for two weeks in January.
Don't beat yourself up too much!
What your H said to you is almost the same thing as what my H had said to me : "I've been hurt enough and I don't want to put myself in that position again." or something like even we try to R, he's afraid that it's just gonna be the same again, we're gonna be okay for a few months then it will be back to the old days (where he's "sexually starved") after a little while.
Nothing you can say or do right now will convince him or change his mind. I would say all you can do is validate, and just keep DBing.
And for him to say that it is his "gift to you" to help pay for the house and for you to be with the kids is a bunch of crap. It sounds like he just feels guilty for what he's doing with OW and trying to lessen his own guilt by giving you a "gift."
Is there any way to avoid having his parents stay with you guys for two weeks? That sounds like a lot for you to take on. My limit right now with the in-laws is having a meal together. anything longer than that is a big fat no on my end.
What your H said to you is almost the same thing as what my H had said to me : "I've been hurt enough and I don't want to put myself in that position again." or something like even we try to R, he's afraid that it's just gonna be the same again, we're gonna be okay for a few months then it will be back to the old days (where he's "sexually starved") after a little while.
Yup. So strange that he has such a fixed mindset on this when he has a growth mindset in every other area of his life. I think it is because believing there is no hope for a sexually fulfilled M with me, ever, allows him to feel better about the choices he's making. If he accepted that things could change between us, that I could change, then it means his behavior is all the worse.
Nothing you can say or do right now will convince him or change his mind. I would say all you can do is validate, and just keep DBing.
You're right. I guess where I'm having trouble is that he just hasn't actually pulled the trigger and so there is this desperation in me to SOMEHOW turn this around before the kids get pulled into it. I know I can't control him-- that needs to be my mantra, especially because he feels I am controlling and if he decides to stay then I "win," but somehow I need to be able to just let it go.
And for him to say that it is his "gift to you" to help pay for the house and for you to be with the kids is a bunch of crap. It sounds like he just feels guilty for what he's doing with OW and trying to lessen his own guilt by giving you a "gift."
This addresses another series of fears of mine... that he'll agree to me getting 100% physical custody now to lessen his guilt, but as time goes on he'll come to see that he wants more of the children and will ask for it.
Is there any way to avoid having his parents stay with you guys for two weeks? That sounds like a lot for you to take on. My limit right now with the in-laws is having a meal together. anything longer than that is a big fat no on my end.
I wish, but not possible. I'm trying to figure out how to handle it. I felt like I handled my family situation the best I could, but it definitely drove him further away.
The fact that they have been on and off in contact since BD is interesting, though. I was re-reading my journal and he did really swing back and forth with weeks where he was closer, nicer, talking about purchasing investment properties together and vacations coming up, then swinging back to where he is right now, when he's clearly back in touch with her. I feel like he saw her on his last trip, came home to my parents being here, had a super stressful couple of weeks with my family and feeling like an outsider, and of course he pivots back away from me.
So, things have been kind of back to normal the last couple of days post R talk, with H being nice/funny/fun and us probably spending more time together being friendly than I should allow (wrapping presents together, cooking together, sharing a beer and gossiping about friends together). He took my car in to get a tire fixed without even offering or asking-- just took care of it (after BD1 he had had expressed frustration that I "expected" him to take care of all these kinds of things-- and so the last time my car needed maintenance I just took it in and handled it without talking to him about it, though I did check in with him before spending on a repair). I thanked him and put gas in his car when I had it.
Weird thing about the bed situation-- he's been back in the MB since Friday after our R talk, to prevent the kids from asking difficult questions during the holidays (I also told him if he tried anything in the middle of the night I wouldn't let it happen, so he didn't have to worry about that. He acted like that was stupid but I am pretty sure it is part of the reason he doesn't want to be there, since he doesn't understand why he wakes up and starts kissing me in the middle of the night). However, he left the futon open in the office. It is almost like he still needs that visual representation of the possibility available to him. Sunday night he ate a ton of ice cream right before bed (he's lactose intolerant) and came into the bedroom saying I wouldn't want him to sleep here (let's just say he can be very stinky). I was reading and didn't react at all, said fine and kept reading. He went to the office and then came back and said D9's stuff is all over the futon (there was literally one big thing and a couple smaller items-- would have taken 30 seconds to remove) and then got in bed.
I will note that I have been DYING to put the futon back together or ask him to do it but have not. Baby steps! He has also not worn his wedding ring now for several weeks, since his last trip (when he saw AP). He has always took it on and off for surfing/swimming/yoga etc. and then doesn't always put it back on for some period of time, but this is probably the longest length of time he hasn't worn it. I am finally becoming less triggered by this.
Yesterday, I was reading on Curtis's thread where Blu told him his W is done, and I started to think-- is this me? Is my H simply done and all I'm doing is dragging out the process? Or is he truly conflicted-- not about his feelings for me vs AP (that seems pretty clear) but in his desire to actually move forward with leaving and all that entails? I've been pinning all my hopes on the latter, that he'll decide it isn't worth giving this all up for a chance at a more fulfilled R with AP... but maybe I'm fooling myself. I spent a lot of time thinking about this yesterday and what that might mean. It was a sobering and sad realization. I spent the drive home repeating to myself I can't control him, I can't control what he thinks, or what he wants, or what he does. I can only control me. And if we do get D, he will be a great dad and a good co-parent partner, even if I'm too angry/devastated/hurt to be his friend back if AP is in the picture, and as much as I feel I couldn't forgive him for taking a 2-parent household away from our kids.
Then I got home, he was nice and funny. He got a last-minute text invite from some friends (male, but probably as good friends with me as they are with him) as we were unloading the dishwasher together, starting to cook dinner, and sharing a beer-- at first I was like I want to go! (180 for me, he thinks/thought I never want to do anything fun and am not spontaneous) and he said yes, let's go, we can bring the kids-- then I said no, that seems silly, you should go hang out with XYZ, it will be more fun. He said actually, it would be really fun for us all to go... but agreed that it didn't really make sense. He cooked dinner, we ate as a family and laughed a ton at our hilarious and wonderful children, and he took off.
The best part of that whole exchange... is that I meant it. I didn't say it to elicit any kind of response from him (in fact it probably would be construed as pressure and anti-DB had I thought more about it) but-- I really would have dropped everything, the dinner we were in the middle of cooking, to go have a fun night with the fam and good friends. A year ago I would have thought that was a crazy idea and why didn't we make a plan to do that next week? And whether he sees that or not, I feel freer and happier that I can say YES to things so much more often than I could before.
And then, even better-- for the first time in weeks, I was able to simply BE with my kids, in the moment, and enjoy them. We played silly games and laughed and I was so happy. There was no nagging at the back of my mind about what might happen with H. It still feels good just thinking about it, and even right now though of course this is on my mind, the level of anxiety has definitely diminished. Of course, I don't know if that is because I've made any interior progress or because he's back in the MB and acting nice (therefore I'm just fooling myself into feeling better), but right now I don't want to question it.
He came home on the early side, hung out and helped do some online Christmas shopping, told me funny stories from the friends he saw. This morning, he had an opportunity to get angry with me and he didn't AT ALL. Incredible, I'm not putting any meaning into it one way or the other, but it was a really sweet 180 from him that I appreciate.
Anyway, that is where I am. Input, 2x4s, etc all welcome.
May,
I'm glad that you have a PMA recently. I know (for many of us) it can be a lot of ups and downs emotionally. I understand not wanting to question it and dwell on whether you are fooling yourself into feeling better and just enjoy.
Soft 2X4 here: It's probably a mix of fooling yourself and the work you're doing on your mental preparations for the worst.
I feel like many of us live in limbo accepting whatever comes our way, trying to be as patient as possible. The truth of the matter is that we need to continue to prepare for the worst and work towards letting go of any outcome. You're 180 about the social hour is exactly this. It's your brain saying "Hey May! Make a decision just to make May happy!"
Hang in there May!
Dear May,
I have gone back and read all of your posts. I am wishing I had taken notes because so many things came to mind that I wanted to tell you, but I wanted to get through the entire thing first. I also want to say to anyone that is reading to please not think that your posts are any less valuable than some of the "vets" or posters you view as experts because they have thousands of posts under their belts. That is not true at all! We all have something important to contribute and we are all learning together. I also want to caution people from using statistics (ie I am 99% sure) because it's misleading -- we are talking about people, not data! Plus, some of us know more about some things due to our own experiences and others know more about something else, even if they are considered a newbie to this site. In fact, a poster literally named "newbie" said something about long distance EAs needing to burn out that I thought was some of the best advice on this thread!
May, I have so many things I want to tell you. Writing is not my strong suit, but I will try my best. I am going to break it up into paragraphs, as things come to mind again and it might take me more than one post. I apologize if it doesn't flow or read well. I have a lot of clarifying questions also, and if you don't want to answer them here, I hope you will at least think about them. I also have some advice that might feel contradictory to some of the DB principles. Of course you are free to ignore my advise. The reason I am telling you some of this, is because I can see in hindsight how I could have done things differently in my own sitch and your H sounds similar to mine in several ways. I will explain that when I get started. Lastly, I apologize if I seem harsh or my 2*4s are rough. Sometimes it is easier for me to communicate in a direct way that could be perceived as less than caring. I don't mean to hurt you, and I actually think I can help.
I cannot help but sense in your writing that you do not seem very angry or upset about your sitch. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't get that sense at all. You continue to minimize their R be calling it an EA. I didn't think that when I read your very first post. In fact you even say that you are not jealous of OW. So I am wondering if your lack of emotion is due to denial about the gravity of your sitch or that you are just not conveying that in your writing? Your H is basically telling you that he is in love with her, he wants to be with her, and it seems that he is only still in the home because it is "the right thing to do" to be a good family man. How do you feel about this? I know they say here that we should believe none of what they say and half of what they do. More cookie cutter advice that I think we should put aside for the moment (I have my reasons for saying this and I will get to that). .... May, your H is telling you he wants to leave you for an affair, live with HER next door, and pretend you are all friends. Let's say he is telling you the truth. How do you feel right now reading that?
Could it be that on some level, you and him both believe that you deserve this? Could that also be why you are not more upset? Sure, he is delusional, we all know that, but I am also suggesting here that some part of you is taking blame for this. He blames you and his narrative is strong -- "you neglected me sexually for years and broke our M, this is your fault, and so I am entitled to be happy and be with OW." He has said this in his own words 100 times. I could care less what he says -- he is so deep in this affair fog, he can't find his a-s from a hole in the ground. What I care about, May, is you. Do you believe that you are to blame for your M problems and that that is why he ultimately had an A?
Because I don't believe that for one minute. This is not your fault, May. Even if he tried to pursue you and initiate affection and sex every night for two years, and even if very night for 2 years you balked at him and told him to get your hands off of me, even then I would not believe that it was your fault. I don't think it is ever one person's fault. A M literally means a union between 2 people. It is up to both of those 2 people to nurture the R, but also to have healthy boundaries and good communication. He was responsible for talking with you and addressing the intimacy problems just as you were. And even if the problems were more stemming from you, it was still his choice to lie and commit adultery. That was and still IS his very big mistake! .... I am afraid he has convinced himself that he is entitled to this A because you "broke him sexually (which is complete horse sh-t)" and worse than that, I am afraid that you have accepted this blame and welcomed it.
I want to talk about boundaries because I have read you use the term incorrectly. You have stated that your boundary is that you will only work on the M or even discuss a separation with co-parenting if he goes NC with OW. That is not a boundary, that is control. A boundary can be thought of a circle you draw around yourself and then you can decide what and who you let in the circle. Control is when you draw the circle around someone else. You want to control him and his R with her and you just can't. Now, I do not judge you for that. I was the same and actually much worse! I tried anything and everything to control my H and OWs R. I even thought I was successful at times -- I got him to go NC with her for a month. During that month we had several R talks. He was a miserable mess. I think during that month he probably missed her and wanted her more .... It is human nature to want what we can't have ....
Here is the biggest issue as I see it. You are plan B. He knows it, you know it, and anyone reading here knows it. But no one want's plan B, May. No one. In fact, even if plan A falls through and he then turns to plan B (which is you) he still didn't want you. Is that how you want to start the difficult process of piecing? As plan B? .... I am going to guess no. You would rather be plan A. So what can you do now to turn this crap around and become plan A?
To Be continued. ...
I think removing yourself from plan B is going to be a challenge at this point for several reasons. That is not to say it isn't possible, but the longer you avail yourself as plan B, the harder it will be to change that. Here are some reasons you both agree that you are plan B, and as you read them, you can think about what you can modify (change) and what you have no control over.
1. You have had several R talks and he has stated out loud multiple times that he has already chosen her as plan A. He is naturally conflicted about his decision, however the more he says it, the more he may feel as if he needs to stick to his words. This could partly be a pride issue, and esp for men.
2. You both have attributed blame for the SSM issues and both agree that it is your fault. This conversation has happened several times and you have already accepted the blame. He has not had to work hard on rewriting history because this has become a shared belief.
3. You are okay with whatever he chooses to do. He can sleep in the bed or the office. He can share family time or have his own time with the kids. He is welcome to have family vacation or not. He can have dates, laughs, beers, midnight sex without meaning, friendship and pretty much whatever he wants with you right now. You are accommodating. This, given the fact that he has told you he is in love with another woman, in my opinion translates into a loss of respect for you. I am a believer that it is difficult to have attraction for a person that we do not respect. This is a huge part of his confusion.
4. You are expecting him to make a logical decision when he is in a completely irrational mindset. Have you read about limerance? Have you read about the addictive nature of As? It has been compared to a heroin addition and researchers have even done PET scans of people's brains that are "in love" (ie infatuated with someone) and it lights up in the same areas. So right now, your WH is completely obsessed with this OW and the idea of her. In his delusional mind he can have his cake and eat it too. He can have a perfect romance with her and be perfect co-parents with you. He literally said this to you. That is crazy talk. That is limerance at it's best. ... My H was the same way! He even said to me that we all need to sit down and talk (re him, OW, her H and me) and I think my jaw opened so wide it hit the pavement! ... so here is where you can't believe what they say. It's completely insane. But at the same time, you have to accept what he says because he thinks he means it .... he even said to you, you have no idea what goes on in his head.
So regarding the above 4 things, what can you improve upon and what can you not? You already know he is deeply involved with OW and obessessed with her. Chances are, they are in frequent contact, he professes his love to her and feels miserable he can't be with her, and he sees YOU as the main obstacle to his pathway to happiness and bliss. ... This is where I want to point out that your sitch is not like everyone elses. You are dealing with extreme waywardness. You continue to do the PICK ME DANCE, and I am telling you right now, you will never win. You cannot compete with her. She has already won in his mind. ... You need a new tactic ....
On another note, I wanted to add that your measurement of things going well is wrong. You have stated several times how much better things are -- he is doing more around the house, he is helping more, he is more pleasant, and you even enjoy one another's company, you have family time, you laugh and you share beers. It almost seems like things are normal and so you want to believe you are drawing him in ... I am going to go out on a limb and say the opposite is true. You are actually teaching him that you are perfectly happy to be his plan B and you will wait in the friendzone and continue to serve up cake. After all, you both agree that the M problems are your fault, right? And he also knows you will wait for him to change his mind, right? And he has been very clear that he is not with you and only wants her, right? In fact, I would also say that a large part of him trying to stay away from you sexually, is because he doesn't want to cheat on her ... ouch .... (are you mad yet, May? Because I am! I personally want to drop kick your H in the nutz!) ...
Some of the moments that H and I had the calmest and nicest interactions, were during the times he was most limeramt and attached to his OW. I think his kindness to me, and helping around the house and with kids -- and me accepting him and appreciating him -- actually absolved his guilt. It DID NOT LEAD TO HIM WANTING TO BE WITH ME. It was backwards and counter intuitive.
I am getting the sense that the DB coaches telling you to be the light house, remain warm and detached and to focus on the friendship. I don't know why and I just don't agree with it. That is why I said I cannot agree with all of the advice here. I think that actually weakens your position and keeps you either as plan B or in the Friendzone. I am not suggesting you do the opposite, like stonewall him, be aggressive or kick him to the curb. But I do not agree that being a shiney lighthouse is going to l lead the affair ship back to shore. That needs to die on it's own .... and I happen to think it will need to die it's own natural death without your interference ....
I have noticed you have strong ideas about your bottom line. I was like that too. And I can tell you, it changed all the time. I don't think I have any bottom lines anymore. People and Rs are messy and complicated, and esp Ms. I think your belief about him leaving the family home being the final straw, and point of no return, will mostly change in this. And you keeping him there, will unlikely lead to you two piecing and fixing this M. Plan A might get fed up and dump him if she has to wait too long, sure, but recall you are still plan B .... Our number one goal right now, is that May becomes plan A ....
To Be Continued .....
So if you agree with anything I am saying that we are both wondering how we can remove you from plan B and put you into the position of plan A. If I knew the exact formula, I would of course tell you! I am sorry I don't know, but I do have some ideas that I think will help. I also want to be honest and say that I cannot separate my bias of knowing what worked (and didn't work) in my own sitch. I do see some similarities between our Hs. My H was not a walkaway, and was deeply wayward -- he only left to pursue OW and didn't actually want to leave. My H was a big Mr Nice Guy and was very eager to please and protect his image of being a good H and dad. It killed him that people saw him differently, esp when he left the home. My H kicked into overdrive to make-up for his wayward guilt by being more helpful, present, and even kind. My H knew on some level that his A was wrong, that breaking up his family was wrong, and he even knew when he left that things would never work with OW. He could even articulate that to me. But the thing is, he was too deep in the A fog, and the limeramce (like heroin) was too strong. He had to go out into the world and it had to die it's own natural death.
So I think you can tell by now I am going in the direction that you don't want hear. At the same time, your point that this has to be his decision, and you will not be responsible for making this choice for him, is well taken. So I am not going to tell you that you should say to him to "go, get out, and go be with her." I can see that is not what you want to do and I am not even sure it is the best idea. But I do think something has got to change. I see many areas where you can do 180s. In fact, I think your position is quite strong. He does not really want to leave and wants a family with his kids. While he says he is not attracted to you, I don't think that is true (he comes on to you), and it is also something that can change again. On some level (just like with my H), he knows leaving his W for a 33 yo is just wrong and probably knows it will never actually work. He does not want to destroy his image of a good H, father and family man. He also does not want to lose his plan B, you. It is clear that he does enjoy your company and friendship and would miss that..
I am not sure if I mentioned this about my H, but I did make the decision for him by telling him "if you are not going to be 100% committed to me and this family, then get out! And then he left. It was so awful and painful. He was also gone for awhile. I regretted saying that and I only wanted him back. The thing is tho, May, I might have done the right thing in a way. Because I set him free. He went off and had a full on R with her and he learned that his "fantasy" was just that, it was a fantasy and he was trying to escape his own life. The reality of an R with her was disappointing, painful and not what he wanted at all. He also started to miss me, our family and the life we created. You see, I couldn't compete with her and I didn't want to. I let him go. And by letting him go, I in turn became the plan A. He had to fall on his own and hit his own rock bottom to realize what he was actually losing.
I don't get the sense you are there yet and that is okay. We are different people. But I do think there are many things that you can do to remove yourself from plan B. In my last post I numbered 1-4 things that I thought were the reasons you were plan B. I asked you to think about what things you could control and change. .... In my opinion, there are things you can do in all 4 of them! You see you are so much stronger and more in control than you realize right now! (I was back then too, but I didn't know it). May, you are the queen of your castle! You don't need to compete with that pitiful OW because there is no competition. He just cannot see it right now and neither can you ....
So here are the things I want you to know as you move forward so you can hold your head up high and start getting your groove back. We have got to find the PLAN A MAY! She exists under this pain and fear. Can we let that be our focus?
You are the queen of your castle. Always.
You are the wife, you are the mother of these children, and this is YOUR family.
This is your home and you have a right to feel comfortable and safe there.
These M problems are not your fault alone.
The SSM was not your fault alone.
His A is not your fault and will never be your fault. This is HIS doing and his problem alone.
Right now, he is in the wrong and there is no justifying this selfish behavior. No more taking the blame.
OW is nothing and means nothing to you.
It is okay to feel angry, jealous, hurt, furious and anything you need to feel! Feel it and own those feelings -- they are your feelings!
There are safe people you can share your feelings with that won't judge you. Find them and cherish them.
You never have to compete with OW
There is no competition.
She is nothing to you.
It is not your job to convince him to stay.
You do not have to compromise your own needs or wants for him or any man.
You can take all the time and space you need.
You don't have to make any decisions or changes today.
There is always more time.
You do not have to share a bed with a liar and a cheater.
If he wants to leave for her, that is his choice and you can let him go.
He can own that decision and he can own the consequences of it.
He can break up his family if he chooses and you can still protect your castle and children. They will be okay.
You can still hold your head up high and you are still the queen.
I promise you will be okay with or without him there.
In time, this will work out for the best, eventually.
If over time you allow him back, or don't want him back, that is your own choice and no one elses opinion matters that much.
Life is long and complicated. Things will change for the bad, but also for the good.
In time, you can learn to love again and you will come out of this stronger.
You deserve love and respect.
Start by being the one to give that to yourself.
You can do this.
Blu
Above post is what I said in a lot more words which were probably needed. This guy needs to be forced to make his decision to go to this AP and feel what he is losing. This is something I personally know. I was the WW in an affair over 20 years ago. Limerence to the absolute max. But when it came time to do what I had to do to leave my marriage if I wanted this AP, I just couldn't do it. And now, 20 years later, I laugh at how stupid I was back then. My AP was a single guy, willing to engage a married woman (what kind of character does that show) and he is still single. He would never have committed to me despite the BS I was told at the time. These people are single for a reason.
I didn't have the family commitments you do, May, and I still couldn't do it. Take Plan B away from him. He may go to this person but it won't last. I'm not saying it won't be painful but it will get resolved. Having him gone physically from your household will make you adapt to a new reality and when he does come back, you'll be in a stronger position to decide if you want him in your family's life at all.
I can't emphasize this enough. He is getting to have his family and also sneak around indulging this fantasy. I DID IT MYSELF. Mine was also long distance. It makes your life so exciting when it's going on. Tell him he can't live in your house while he is involved with this woman.
Wow, BluWave. Talk about a 2x4. That was more like a sledgehammer. Amazing, brilliant, very necessary post. Listen to her, May!
Sledgehammer with love ....
It is impossible for me (or anyone) to perfectly remove their own bias. The more the sitch is similar to our own, the more there is room for bias. So I know my posts can read a bit harsh (2by4 or worse, sledgehammer) but I do promise you all I think about it a lot. I am not here to post to every person and I am not a self-proclaimed expert! I have zero ego about how anyone might perceive me and I don't consider myself a vet (I don't consider most people here vets, even the daily posters and ones that speak as if they are).
What I do is I try and read from the beginning. I try and understand where that person might be getting stuck. I then think about if I were in their shoes, what would I need to hear? When I was in similar shoes what do I know now that I did need to hear then. It is almost as if I am talking to my old wounded self. .... I personally needed a lot of 2*4s. My friends and family were loving and supportive but perhaps could have been more direct with me.
I also want people here to know that it is okay to let go. We cling so hard out of fear, pain and anxiety, that really we push them away. When I finally let go of my H and took care of myself, he was free to discover what he wanted on his own
Blu
Blu,
This.
Thank you.
First off, I want to say how much I appreciate your time, your candor, your insight, and your kind clarity. I don't feel anything you said was harsh at all-- I definitely feel you are talking right to me and I've been really thinking a lot about setting myself up as Plan B and he has zero doubts that I won't go anywhere, because of the children if nothing else. If it is OK, I'm going to go through here and respond piece by piece.
I cannot help but sense in your writing that you do not seem very angry or upset about your sitch. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't get that sense at all. You continue to minimize their R be calling it an EA. I didn't think that when I read your very first post. In fact you even say that you are not jealous of OW. So I am wondering if your lack of emotion is due to denial about the gravity of your sitch or that you are just not conveying that in your writing? Your H is basically telling you that he is in love with her, he wants to be with her, and it seems that he is only still in the home because it is "the right thing to do" to be a good family man. How do you feel about this? I know they say here that we should believe none of what they say and half of what they do. More cookie cutter advice that I think we should put aside for the moment (I have my reasons for saying this and I will get to that). .... May, your H is telling you he wants to leave you for an affair, live with HER next door, and pretend you are all friends. Let's say he is telling you the truth. How do you feel right now reading that?
I know at first I didn't believe he really, truly could love someone else and not me. I also really went into the literature on limerence and have really relied on this whole "brain on drugs" idea, which has helped me to separate my feelings from what is happening and make it more like a scientific phenomenon I happen to be observing. Does that make sense? I also had an experience a couple of years ago at a college reunion where someone I'd always thought was cute really came onto me and while I didn't let it go anywhere, I did spend a few days daydreaming and it scared me... I feel I can understand how it happened and how he got himself into this situation. I AM angry. I AM probably also somewhat still in denial about the gravity of the situation. In the last week, I've been trying to tell myself over and over, maybe he is really just done, he is never coming back, he really is just in love with someone else and it is out of my control.
I do think that if she lived here and they saw each other in person, I would be a raving, jealous, crazy person. I think I might go insane. The fact that she lives so far away, they have barely even seen each other IRL and in that sense, she is a woman who has spent a year in a long-distance affair with a married older man who hasn't shown her with his actions that he is choosing her. So I don't really feel jealous of her, honestly. But I would if she moved in next door. Maybe I'm just telling myself "it could be worse if...' and using that as a mechanism to distance myself from being jealous, angry or sad.
When he first told me, I was a total mess. I still am not sleeping all that well. The thing that panics me beyond anything else is the idea of not being with my kids-- that is a bone-deep terror that overrides anything else and I honestly don't know how much I'm conflating my fear of losing him over my fear of breaking up my family, hurting my children, and not being able to tuck them in every night and snuggle with them every morning. I mean, he is being a huge a-hole and part of me is like do I really want this?
cCould it be that on some level, you and him both believe that you deserve this? Could that also be why you are not more upset? Sure, he is delusional, we all know that, but I am also suggesting here that some part of you is taking blame for this. He blames you and his narrative is strong -- "you neglected me sexually for years and broke our M, this is your fault, and so I am entitled to be happy and be with OW." He has said this in his own words 100 times. I could care less what he says -- he is so deep in this affair fog, he can't find his a-s from a hole in the ground. What I care about, May, is you. Do you believe that you are to blame for your M problems and that that is why he ultimately had an A?[/quote]
Well, this is a tough one. I don't *think* so. I held a huge amount of resentment towards him for things ranging from him not being around/not being helpful around the house, him being selfish and choosing to do things just for himself, him being an a-hole and then expecting to get some half an hour later. I also had a lot of self-image issues after kids really didn't feel like a sexual being any more, and I also felt like he just wanted sex for the physical release rather than actually wanting ME. I also started to feel like there was something wrong with me for having such low libido.
Now, I have spent a long time reading about this and thinking about it, and have actually really absolved myself of a good portion of the responsibility for the sexlessness. He also bears responsibility, and we have talked about that. I don't think he's fully absorbed his role, though. He is very smart and I think his IC is basically an echo chamber where he gets reinforcement for his own storyline that he wants to tell.
I also think that at the time, the one thing I had read about sexless Rs was that I should just fake it till I made it, and that is probably that max I would have done... which, while may have staved off this particular issue, probably would not have solved our R problems. So a part of me does feel like it had to come to this, where our R is totally on the rocks, for me to really take responsibility for my share of our issues. This whole situation has also caused me to see him as a real person, not just a foil inhabiting the role of my H, which allowed me to actually forgive him for a lot of the hurts I had been holding onto for years.
So... I don't *think* I am accepting the blame for this. I have not been arguing with him in R talks about the blame he deserves, and I think he thinks I am taking the blame... so it definitely does fit into his narrative. (And also probably contributes to his loss of respect for me as well.) I am also not someone to have a lot of regrets-- generally I feel I do the best I can in any given situation with the information I have at that point in time, and I can't change what is in the past. So I'm mostly just trying to figure out how to deal today and going forward.
Because I don't believe that for one minute. This is not your fault, May. Even if he tried to pursue you and initiate affection and sex every night for two years, and even if very night for 2 years you balked at him and told him to get your hands off of me, even then I would not believe that it was your fault. I don't think it is ever one person's fault. A M literally means a union between 2 people. It is up to both of those 2 people to nurture the R, but also to have healthy boundaries and good communication. He was responsible for talking with you and addressing the intimacy problems just as you were. And even if the problems were more stemming from you, it was still his choice to lie and commit adultery. That was and still IS his very big mistake! .... I am afraid he has convinced himself that he is entitled to this A because you "broke him sexually (which is complete horse sh-t)" and worse than that, I am afraid that you have accepted this blame and welcomed it.
Thank you. This helps.
I want to talk about boundaries because I have read you use the term incorrectly. You have stated that your boundary is that you will only work on the M or even discuss a separation with co-parenting if he goes NC with OW. That is not a boundary, that is control. A boundary can be thought of a circle you draw around yourself and then you can decide what and who you let in the circle. Control is when you draw the circle around someone else. You want to control him and his R with her and you just can't. Now, I do not judge you for that. I was the same and actually much worse! I tried anything and everything to control my H and OWs R. I even thought I was successful at times -- I got him to go NC with her for a month. During that month we had several R talks. He was a miserable mess. I think during that month he probably missed her and wanted her more .... It is human nature to want what we can't have ....
You're right. I DO want to control this. I know I can't... but I want to. Desperately. I am working on this, telling myself over and over what I can and can't control. I actually feel that over the past week or so I've been getting better at this, and better at understanding that if he leaves, it is his choice... he is the one doing this to the girls, not me... and I will be fine. And they will, too. I think the next big step for me if this happens is that if my children are really hurting, I might drop back into blame-myself-zone.
Here is the biggest issue as I see it. You are plan B. He knows it, you know it, and anyone reading here knows it. But no one want's plan B, May. No one. In fact, even if plan A falls through and he then turns to plan B (which is you) he still didn't want you. Is that how you want to start the difficult process of piecing? As plan B? .... I am going to guess no. You would rather be plan A. So what can you do now to turn this crap around and become plan A?
I know!! Ever since I started reading these boards this is what I have been thinking about. I have established myself as the most concrete plan B in the world. He KNOWS without a doubt that NOTHING would make me leave him because I don't want to hurt the children. He told me in our last R talk that if things were reversed he would have been long gone. I said does that make you not respect me? (Maybe I shouldn't have asked this but it was on my mind for this very reason and I was honestly curious.) He said no.... not that I think it was an honest answer... and I told him he wouldn't know what decision he would make until he was in the actual situation, and that I always would have thought I would have left as well.
I've been thinking that things aren't going to get better before they get worse, which means, I think, him leaving and actually understanding what losing me, my friendship, his great family life, his friends (our friends are mostly my friends, which has also been a part of his MLC-like questioning of everything... "I won't be losing that much because I don't really have that many friends anyway and they only like me because of you"), his reputation, etc-- for this OW will all really mean. I just wish so badly I could somehow avoid this step. Also because he is so, so stubborn and self-justifying that I worry he'll never change his mind even if he ends up being miserable the rest of his life. But I'm not sure I can. But, I would piece as Plan B even if it was harder and longer to save my kids from any sadness, and that is the honest, maybe sad, truth.
Will respond to your next posts later... H just got home. THANK YOU!!
I think removing yourself from plan B is going to be a challenge at this point for several reasons. That is not to say it isn't possible, but the longer you avail yourself as plan B, the harder it will be to change that. Here are some reasons you both agree that you are plan B, and as you read them, you can think about what you can modify (change) and what you have no control over.
1. You have had several R talks and he has stated out loud multiple times that he has already chosen her as plan A. He is naturally conflicted about his decision, however the more he says it, the more he may feel as if he needs to stick to his words. This could partly be a pride issue, and esp for men.
True. I think the pride issue is a part of this too, and saying it out loud to me gets easier for him every time. I also think it gives him something back to say to AP. Also, I have solidified myself as Plan B in these R talks because I am so set against breaking up for the kids and keep trying to convince him to imagine a fulfilling MR with me. I have generally tried to stay away from R talks-- my biggest takeaway here is to avoid at all costs? Listening and validating him saying this to me will just continue to move him in this direction even if I don't put on pressure by arguing with him.
2. You both have attributed blame for the SSM issues and both agree that it is your fault. This conversation has happened several times and you have already accepted the blame. He has not had to work hard on rewriting history because this has become a shared belief.
As I wrote in the earlier post, I definitely accept my part of the blame for this but also wholly believe he bears a decent 50% of it too. However, *he* doesn't really see this and I think the R talks where I focus on validating and listening probably reinforce his viewpoint that I was a frigid b***ch. He is very resentful that *now* I waltz in all ready to heat it up after all these years, and now that he no longer wants to. He has gotten angry and raised his voice the last couple of times we talked about it, and I haven't argued but I did say that I thought we both bore responsibility and he was like yes (but I think in a general sense, not in a deep, introspective he-knows-what-he-did sense). I did share a few things that I thought he could have done differently, like talking about it outside the bedroom (normally he would just get angry when I turned him down, yell at me, and I'd get angry back like why would I want to have sex with you when you're yelling at me?), trying to understand what was going on in my mind, not making me feel like all he wanted was sex for the sake of sex, etc. I don't know how useful it is to go over all of this with him at this point, especially on our own. If we did see an MC which we've talked about, or his IC together, maybe this is an area I can address. I do think that poking holes in his perfect narrative he's laid out with his IC could be beneficial for me/us. So, I don't really think #2 is true for ME, but I definitely think it is part of HIS truth at this point. How to address this in the current context especially if I'm trying to avoid R talks is maybe difficult.
3. You are okay with whatever he chooses to do. He can sleep in the bed or the office. He can share family time or have his own time with the kids. He is welcome to have family vacation or not. He can have dates, laughs, beers, midnight sex without meaning, friendship and pretty much whatever he wants with you right now. You are accommodating. This, given the fact that he has told you he is in love with another woman, in my opinion translates into a loss of respect for you. I am a believer that it is difficult to have attraction for a person that we do not respect. This is a huge part of his confusion.
This will be the hardest for me. I agree with you, but this is hard. Here are some random thoughts about the situation and I would welcome your thoughts on it:
- sex-- I told him I wouldn't have sex with him when he's sleeping in the bed with me (and I agree, I do think he feels guilty about HER when he does). He has come onto me the past two nights-- the first night he hugged me super tight and I just pretended to still be asleep, we sat like that (actually pretty uncomfortable for me) for a few minutes then he let me go and we both went back to sleep-- last night he put his hand on my stomach and then into my underwear, I pretended to be asleep, he left his hand there for a few minutes then went to sleep. This whole thing is just the weirdest. I do think that no sex is the right move right now, especially to avoid an R talk... and to be honest I think if I said more actively "I don't think this is a good idea" it could also lead into an R talk, hence the pretending to be asleep. But maybe more respect would be generated if I was firmer like untangled myself or removed his hand? Here's another weird thing about the sex... it tends to happen on evenings where we got into an argument or he got mad about something.
- he knows that I'm not OK with him sleeping in the office, but more for what it means for the kids than me caring too much where he actually sleeps. He finally put the futon back together so it isn't a bed anymore. I worry that this feels more like me trying to control him than being accommodating.
- one thing I've decided in the last week and put into action is that I won't take any more of his stupid sh*t if he's being a jerk for no reason, and also to go ahead and do the things I want to do without worrying about whether or not he'd like it. He did tell me in an R talk that he knew I was trying to be very accommodating and he saw me walking on thin ice and it made him feel guilty. So I am stopping. Not engaging in a fight, but just telling him he's being an ass and to cut it out. And last night we did something I wanted to, he really didn't, I told him he was welcome to skip it but the kids and I were doing it... and he came along, got super mad at the end of the night at me, and I just ignored him. I think I need to keep this up.
- finding more ways to GAL.
4. You are expecting him to make a logical decision when he is in a completely irrational mindset. Have you read about limerance? Have you read about the addictive nature of As? It has been compared to a heroin addition and researchers have even done PET scans of people's brains that are "in love" (ie infatuated with someone) and it lights up in the same areas. So right now, your WH is completely obsessed with this OW and the idea of her. In his delusional mind he can have his cake and eat it too. He can have a perfect romance with her and be perfect co-parents with you. He literally said this to you. That is crazy talk. That is limerance at it's best. ... My H was the same way! He even said to me that we all need to sit down and talk (re him, OW, her H and me) and I think my jaw opened so wide it hit the pavement! ... so here is where you can't believe what they say. It's completely insane. But at the same time, you have to accept what he says because he thinks he means it .... he even said to you, you have no idea what goes on in his head.
I know. I know I know. Not sure how I can improve on this... do I bust his fantasy bubble when he mentions it?
OK need to run again... will continue later. THANK YOU!
May,
Blu definitely gave it to you straight. Not in a mean, "beat you over the head" kind of way, but simply direct. I can relate so much to you in how you must feel so completely at a loss as to how to handle all of it. I don't have any answers for you as to how you let go while living under the same roof. It almost seems as if for any progress to be made, he needs to go. I completely agree with Blu as to how limerent he is really acting. His head is in all sorts of places. Reading this through, I realized that my own WW isn't affectionate with me most likely because she feels guilty cheating on OW. Harsh, but true. How does that change how you feel about him sleeping in YOUR bed? I know you want to be non-confrontational and believe me, I get it. BUT, and I'm going to challenge you here May, what if one thing you could do to take back some of your power is to take back your bed?
"H, I will not share my bed with someone actively involved in another relationship. Please respect my need for privacy and sleep elsewhere."
I know that's a scary statement to make. I'm sure others could chime in with other suggestions for wording, but think about whether that might be one small step towards claiming your own power and space. Side bonus, it eliminates any awkward advances from his late night "cravings".
I know you'll get through this! Just be there for your kiddos and know that this is NOT your fault. Find strength May!
KG
Hi Blu,
I'm back! Going to keep going through and responding... being methodical in reviewing each point is really helping me to process, so bear with me
On another note, I wanted to add that your measurement of things going well is wrong. You have stated several times how much better things are -- he is doing more around the house, he is helping more, he is more pleasant, and you even enjoy one another's company, you have family time, you laugh and you share beers. It almost seems like things are normal and so you want to believe you are drawing him in ... I am going to go out on a limb and say the opposite is true.
I think this is a hard one for me to get through my thick brain, but I think you're right. I have been looking for positive signs (partially because that is my nature, partially because my coach told me to keep a list of them) and this is something I need to think about seriously.
I do think, though, that there are two separate issues going on here-- one is whether or not any of this means he wants to be M to me (it doesn't) but the other is whether or not we are capable of a healthy partnership. A year or two ago, when we were constantly fighting and resentful of each other, I don't know that I would have said this would be possible. For me, aside from the "will we end up together" part of all of this, I do believe that implementing some of the DB principles around 180s and being more present for him has really helped our R, no matter where it ends up. I also feel less angry/vindictive than I think I would have if the BD had taken place when we were unable to connect as friends.
I've been reading AlisonUK's thread, and am just so taken aback by the weird, mean things her H is doing/has done. And then I try to take a step back and look dispassionately at my H, who has some of the same characteristics, like blaming everyone and everything around him when things don't go right. My H will also not verbalize what he wants, or go along with what I say, then blow up down the line because his needs never get taken into consideration. I've dealt with this by talking more-- OK, are you SURE you are OK with this? if you're not, say it now-- or, if it is something I really don't care about, giving the decision over to him 100% rather than just deciding which route sounds best to me at the moment. That has helped a lot... but putting myself in Alison's shoes, I wonder if the relationship issues that existed before all this happened are solvable. Is he just an a**hole? I guess the fact that we can deal with things like that much better now than we could before, and the fact that we are connecting on a friendship level far better than we had in a long time gives me hope that the R *would* be fixable if (the big if) he wants to work on it. In my mind, there are two parallel tracks going on-- does H want to be in the M with me (not under my control) and do we have the kind of R that is worth holding onto (partially under my control). So I've focused there, but perhaps to the detriment of the first track. Am I making sense?
You are actually teaching him that you are perfectly happy to be his plan B and you will wait in the friendzone and continue to serve up cake. After all, you both agree that the M problems are your fault, right?
I was reading Unchien's most recent post about his empathy and interior reflection when his W accused him of various things, that he really tried to understand it from her perspective and challenged himself to see what truth might be there. Maybe I fall into a similar boat here, although before BD1 (ILYB) I was full of all the reasons my H was at fault for any R problems. (One of the reasons H has given me for not wanting to work on the R is that he thinks I'm just holding in all this anger and recriminations and as soon as he lets go of AP and commits to the R, I'm going to hold this over his head for the rest of our lives.)
But I have now taken a really honest look at myself, my contributions to where we are today, and what kind of person do I want to be-- and I DO want to be someone who is passionate/sexual, someone who says YES to opportunities even if they don't fit into my pre-planned world. I used to think it was cheesy and kind of embarrassing to see married couples openly affectionate with each other, and I really discouraged my H from any of those behaviors. Physical touch is his #1 LL by far (which I know now but never would have understood back then) and I'm now seeing that I probably had/have an unhealthy repression about demonstrating affection in a romantic R.
Anyway. I think I'm rambling. All to say that some of the M problems were my fault and I own them. I don't think he truly owns his part-- he's constructed a pat story line to explain how he got into a place where he was open to falling for someone else. He has not been able to really even explain how/why he made the choices he did to progress from "that girl is attractive" to where he is now... but he doesn't regret it.
And he also knows you will wait for him to change his mind, right?
Yes. He knows this to his core. I don't know how to change this without something dramatic...
And he has been very clear that he is not with you and only wants her, right? In fact, I would also say that a large part of him trying to stay away from you sexually, is because he doesn't want to cheat on her ... ouch .... (are you mad yet, May? Because I am! I personally want to drop kick your H in the nutz!) ...
Yup. (Though I'm still weirdly not all that mad. I feel like I should be more angry. But I'm not.)
Some of the moments that H and I had the calmest and nicest interactions, were during the times he was most limeramt and attached to his OW. I think his kindness to me, and helping around the house and with kids -- and me accepting him and appreciating him -- actually absolved his guilt. It DID NOT LEAD TO HIM WANTING TO BE WITH ME. It was backwards and counter intuitive.
Yes, I see this-- and he has actually said to me that he thinks the reason we get along so well is because he's focused elsewhere. I have been thinking that was total BS but maybe not.
I am getting the sense that the DB coaches telling you to be the light house, remain warm and detached and to focus on the friendship. I don't know why and I just don't agree with it. That is why I said I cannot agree with all of the advice here.
Yes, this is exactly what my coach has said. H actually had a session with her last week and I'm wondering how it went.
I think that actually weakens your position and keeps you either as plan B or in the Friendzone. I am not suggesting you do the opposite, like stonewall him, be aggressive or kick him to the curb. But I do not agree that being a shiney lighthouse is going to l lead the affair ship back to shore. That needs to die on it's own .... and I happen to think it will need to die it's own natural death without your interference ....
So here is something I've been wrestling with. I have a lot of anger towards H for starting this whole thing with the AP WHILE WE WERE IN THE MIDDLE OF MC. I firmly believe that if he hadn't started down that path we would be in a really different place now. (She had a personal tragedy and "no one else to talk to" so started calling him a lot, then she needed his career advice, etc. It is like she was tailor-made to appeal to his giant ego.)
I keep thinking that if he can just make the decision to STOP this affair, go NC, and give it some time, he'll be in a place where he could focus on the M even if it is Plan B. That the reasons for wanting to stay don't need to be about wanting ME. But I hear you, that choosing Plan B will never be satisfactory for someone like him. Now he is a master at convincing himself of anything, so I have felt like if he chooses to stay and drop AP, he'll decide I was Plan A all along and thank god I stuck around. This is the same reason why I think if he chooses to go, that will be it-- he'll never allow himself to think he made a mistake, especially because it of the dire consequences of choosing to go-- the worse the consequences are, the more he needs to believe that he's doing the right thing for the right reasons, even if it was hard.
But... I know it is human nature to want what you don't have (I've been reading and listening to a lot of Esther Perel). He has me, he thinks I'm here for the long haul no matter what. How could he possibly WANT me? Is there any way to make this dynamic happen-- change these beliefs of his-- without something drastic?
I have noticed you have strong ideas about your bottom line. I was like that too. And I can tell you, it changed all the time. I don't think I have any bottom lines anymore. People and Rs are messy and complicated, and esp Ms. I think your belief about him leaving the family home being the final straw, and point of no return, will mostly change in this. And you keeping him there, will unlikely lead to you two piecing and fixing this M. Plan A might get fed up and dump him if she has to wait too long, sure, but recall you are still plan B .... Our number one goal right now, is that May becomes plan A ....
I'm sure you're right. I already have blown through multiple "I would dump him if..." scenarios that I had always held. I am just so terrified of doing anything that would affect the children negatively. I have been imagining my daughters' responses if we told them... and it is so heartbreaking I can't really even get through the scene in my head.
I was reading Unchien's most recent post about his empathy and interior reflection when his W accused him of various things, that he really tried to understand it from her perspective and challenged himself to see what truth might be there. Maybe I fall into a similar boat here, although before BD1 (ILYB) I was full of all the reasons my H was at fault for any R problems. (One of the reasons H has given me for not wanting to work on the R is that he thinks I'm just holding in all this anger and recriminations and as soon as he lets go of AP and commits to the R, I'm going to hold this over his head for the rest of our lives.)
But I have now taken a really honest look at myself, my contributions to where we are today, and what kind of person do I want to be-- and I DO want to be someone who is passionate/sexual, someone who says YES to opportunities even if they don't fit into my pre-planned world. I used to think it was cheesy and kind of embarrassing to see married couples openly affectionate with each other, and I really discouraged my H from any of those behaviors. Physical touch is his #1 LL by far (which I know now but never would have understood back then) and I'm now seeing that I probably had/have an unhealthy repression about demonstrating affection in a romantic R.
Anyway. I think I'm rambling. All to say that some of the M problems were my fault and I own them. I don't think he truly owns his part-- he's constructed a pat story line to explain how he got into a place where he was open to falling for someone else. He has not been able to really even explain how/why he made the choices he did to progress from "that girl is attractive" to where he is now... but he doesn't regret it.
may22 ~ First, apologies as I have not read up on all the latest posts on your sitch.
It is challenging to strike the perfect balance of recognizing what BOTH of you contributed to the MR problems. I think we all vacillate between self-blame and other-blame.
For instance, I don't necessarily blame my W, but I do recognize that she has issues that contributed to the breakdown of our MR (communication problems, mind-reading me rather than talking). I contributed my own baggage (lack of self-differentiation, anxiety, need for reassurance). I think most of these are fixable IF (big IF) both people want to.
What I don't blame my W for is: abuse allegations, venting 10 problems all at once, etc. Those are symptoms of the underlying issues. I think it's important to look past the symptoms towards the root of the problem. We all get really worked up about the symptoms. Symptoms are inflammatory and get us all twisted up in knots. Is the OW a symptom or a problem (or both)?
You are clearly going through the process of working out who you want to be, which is fantastic! (Regardless of your MR outcome). I also have realized I need to embrace life more and challenge my automatic patterns of thought. Make sure to celebrate these moments of personal growth.
Your H has a pat storyline. The OW helps him avoid confronting his part. He may never deal with it. He may continue to seek a lifestyle that allows him to avoid facing his issues... BUT... also keep in mind how hard it is for anyone to truly confront their own issues. True meaningful change is hard. Most of us LBS's are doing it because we have literally been forced to, for our own emotional survival.
Also, use caution when reading into the more positive interactions with your H. This falls into "Believe none of what they say, and half of what they do." You could be right that things are improving. Or he could be nicer because he has things just the way he wants. Or something else. MWD talks in DR about trying experiments and assessing the results, but our situations on the board are more dire and I think the "assessment of results" can lead us down false paths.
Hang in there, may, and Happy Holidays. Things will get better for you.
We watched Elf too! And Home Alone on a rainy, cosy Christmas Day I've been thinking the same thing about the silver lining-- so much to look forward to as we get through the difficult times now.
It's hard not to smile at lines like, "You missed!" Again, amazed at your strength and how you let your love for your daughter guide you. Sending heartfelt holiday and well wishes.
May,
Thank you for so much time and attention to my posts. I will need to reread them again. I must say, you seem to have a very level head about all of this. It's very impressive! I was such an emotional mess during that time!
For me, my 180 was to stop acting out on my emotions, without ignoring/stonewalling. I would bounce back and forth between being needy/pursuit with being cold/angry. So when I finally did my own 180 and stopped all that -- I matter of factly let him go and started to move on without him, that is when he realized I was removing myself from plan B. This happened while he was getting tired of OW and wanting out of that sitch. Then it was a snowball effect. ... I think your H will have to come to his own realizations somehow.
How was your Christmas?
Blu
Hi Blu,
I really want to thank you again... I have been reading and re-reading your posts to me, and my responses, and doing a lot of thinking. I have copied and pasted the "queen of the castle" etc. mantras to my cell phone to read whenever I need to. It is helping, a lot, as I'm processing and moving towards where I think I need to be on all of this with him.
I *am* a mess at times, especially late at night when I'm trying to sleep. Writing it all out is very helpful, whether journaling or here, and I think it is what is keeping me sane. I definitely have moments where I want to lash out. That balance of having a PMA without being too nice vs getting POed and lashing out is difficult. I read a lot on these boards about "dropping the rope" and that you can't fake it-- I'm guessing that it was when you did really start to move on and let him go was when he realized it. I'm not there yet, but I think I'm making movement in that direction.
After a lot of thinking on these posts, I am getting to the place where I'm finally OK with the idea of him taking some significant step out, and that it is something that needs to happen. Whether it is to sleep permanently or semi-permanently in the office, in the basement, or to his own place, but (thanks Blu, Kristin, and Newbie) I really am getting to the place where I don't need to sleep in the same bed as a cheater, just to keep my kids from finding out. It continues to be his choice to keep in contact with her, and I am really coming to the realization that it is just not OK with me to have him in contact with her while still living in the same house as me and pretending we're a happy family when we're not. I'm thinking through how I want to say it to him and may post some possibilities here as I think them through. I'm also trying not to rush into anything right at this exact moment, but I feel myself moving in that direction.
I've also been spending more time thinking about the good parts of being on my own and what I'll do that I can't do now with him as a husband-- and what I won't need to compromise on anymore. (I think that will be a big 2x4 for him, when he realizes how I factor in his happiness as my H to decisions I make or we make as a family, and what will happen when that is no longer a deciding factor for me.) I'm reading a book on meditation and am trying to put it into practice.
Christmas was overall good, under the circumstances. I had some difficulties in the beginning with decorations, etc. thinking about this probably being the last time we do this as a family, but that is bothering me less now-- I can still do the exact same thing with my kids next year and beyond. Christmas Eve he got tickets for us to a football game, which was fun at first-- tailgating with a few other families-- but then it turned out to be super long and I got annoyed, as being at a football game was not my first choice of what I wanted to do on Christmas Eve, he got the tickets and I had agreed to go to because I knew it was something he really wanted to do. We ended up getting home after 7 pm, rushing through dinner and the stuff with the kids (putting out cookies and carrots for Santa and the reindeer) while I had a low-level resentment burning in my heart, which I know he picked up on. I finally was able to let it go, but I know I've been much less friendly towards him the last couple of days (mostly because I'm thinking all the time about what I won't miss when he goes, and the logistics of how that may all play out). I've sat out in the living room after the kids go to bed rather than in the TV room the last few nights, and he first asked me why (I said to enjoy the tree) and then both last night and the night before he decided to come sit out with me and pour a couple of beers rather than watch TV. I am reading nothing into it and we didn't really talk much.
Christmas Day itself was magical for the children and I got all caught up in it. They both 100% believe in Santa and we had a blast opening presents, playing games, and watching Christmas movies on a really rainy day (so no guilt for not getting outside and doing anything). H got me a lot of presents, mostly kitchen stuff that I don't really need but I know he put a lot of thought and effort into it. I had only gotten him one big thing (the girls chose fairly small gifts for him)- something I know he would have bought for himself anyway if I didn't get it-- and then at the last minute I felt kind of guilty when I saw all the presents he had gotten me so added another gift into the mix. Maybe I shouldn't have done that?
I think he had a hard time yesterday, maybe missing AP, maybe realizing this is the last time we'll do this as a family. I lean towards AP, which annoys me to no end and helps me focus on the future without a H who is moping around because of another woman on Christmas. He kept talking about things he wants to do to the house (which I kept thinking won't matter much if he isn't living here). I do think he cycles between thinking about leaving and/or her and completely forgetting about it and acting like everything is normal, making plans for the future, etc. He's definitely far better at compartmentalization than I am.
There is one issue that is a big one for me and I'd appreciate some advice. Part of his MLC-like behavior was to plan three month-long summer trips over the next three summers, which would involve him and the girls for the full month and I am supposed to come for half (since two weeks is the max I could take off from work). He's totally into this and is actually working on getting sponsors for these trips. When he first told me about it, it was not intended to include the girls (or me) and was going to be one three-month long solo trip. This was when we were in the height of arguing, before he started with AP, and I was like NO-- are you joking? Who takes off three months from life and responsibilities, work, kids, etc to find themselves like this? And he was livid-- I never care about what he wants, we only do the vacations I choose (BS), he's going to live his whole life without doing the things he wants to experience in life, etc. etc. He ended up deciding to split it into three month-long trips to include the girls, and by the time it got there our R was so much on the rocks, plus I realized I did not take his ideas into consideration so much, life is short, and that I didn't have a good reason for not considering doing something like this-- so I have been OK with it, assuming that I am there for two of the weeks. Two weeks is the absolute max I would be OK with being away from the kids, also-- in the past I've said I didn't want that for longer than a week. He knows this, doesn't agree with it, but it has always been my stance.
Anyway. In recent R talks I have finally brought up the fact that if we separate, this trip isn't happening the way he thinks it is. He is like why not? You are still welcome to come... I said of course I wouldn't, and I also wouldn't be OK with being away from the girls for that long. You don't get to leave your wife for another woman and then get to be best friends with her and travel together. It just doesn't happen like that. He's like May, we can do whatever WE want to do... and when I get skeptical he drops into anger and resentment on this really quickly. It is magical thinking at it's finest. I think he thinks if he moves down the planning path on this far enough I won't have the heart to stop it. But he's very, very wrong and I know he'll be incredibly angry with me. At one point a month or two ago during an R talk he said "I don't want to stay married just to do this trip" so I know he knows on some level it isn't going to happen. (And to be honest a good reason why *I* want to work this out with him is so that we can do things like this.) But I know he thinks I'm going to hold this trip hostage to stay married-- and there probably is some level of truth there, that I want him to realize that we make sacrifices and compromises for each other because we're married, and we won't be taking each other's needs into consideration in the same way once we aren't. For me, decisions will be about what is best for me and the kids, and I really couldn't care less about what he would want (especially with him leaving me for another woman). And I know that this next summer especially, if we're in the middle of separating/divorcing-- there is no f***ing way I'll be OK with him having the kids on a month-long vacation without me. He can take them for a week and I'll meet him there and bring the kids to my parents, or something-- but it simply isn't going to happen and I'm starting to think the sooner he realizes that the better.
So my question on this is-- do I bring it up? Maybe something to discuss when we meet with his IC? I've been trying to act "as if" on it-- as if we are going to be together and working on our R so that this trip DOES happen-- but I am no longer thinking that is a strong possibility. However, I also don't want to come across like I'm holding this trip hostage, or being vindictive. It is simply not something I'm willing to do if we aren't together, and if he pulled his head out of his a** and put himself in my shoes he knows me well enough to know this is true. I've thought I'd wait for him to make his move to separate and then once that happened to make sure he knew what was and wasn't going to be OK while we were separated-- draw up a written agreement in/re financials, when each of us would have the kids, how long vacations could be, etc-- rather than have it come off like a threat before he decides to go. But I'm wavering now and thinking maybe he needs to know before he gets too deep into planning, as that isn't fair either. Thoughts?
And the other super fun situation coming up-- his parents get here for 2 weeks on the 7th. Will he want to be in the office permanently by then? Will he want to fake it till they go? Do I? His parents are deeply religious and are going to freak out on him. I've asked him what he thinks his mom will say when he tells her and he says she'll love him no matter what... which is true... but again, I think he's underestimating how strongly she'll disapprove. That is for him to deal with, not me, but part of me feels like it might be better to have it out in the open when they come, also because I'm not really feeling like faking it anymore.
Kristin, U, CG-- thanks you guys. I hope you all had a great Christmas under the circumstances and next year will be AWESOME. Right?
And one question for Newbie:
Above post is what I said in a lot more words which were probably needed. This guy needs to be forced to make his decision to go to this AP and feel what he is losing. This is something I personally know. I was the WW in an affair over 20 years ago. Limerence to the absolute max. But when it came time to do what I had to do to leave my marriage if I wanted this AP, I just couldn't do it. And now, 20 years later, I laugh at how stupid I was back then. My AP was a single guy, willing to engage a married woman (what kind of character does that show) and he is still single. He would never have committed to me despite the BS I was told at the time. These people are single for a reason.
I didn't have the family commitments you do, May, and I still couldn't do it. Take Plan B away from him. He may go to this person but it won't last. I'm not saying it won't be painful but it will get resolved. Having him gone physically from your household will make you adapt to a new reality and when he does come back, you'll be in a stronger position to decide if you want him in your family's life at all.
Newbie-- what made you decide to stay and how did you manage it? Did your H know about it?
Shoot, another super long post... sorry guys. Hang in there, everyone... eat some delicious leftovers and hug your friends and family extra hard this year!
may- I would suggest to stay firm to your boundary which should be something like this: "we cannot plan long family trips when our M is not working". I would not hesitate to bring it up first esp if you think he's already planning. Burst his bubble immediately.
Do not be afraid of what he thinks, whether he's thinking you're holding the trip hostage/being vindictive etc. Don't be afraid even if this issue blows up and leads to separation. It's about your children.
First of all, on the finances front - are you okay with him planning a three month long solo trip? If his traveling expenses are going to impact your finances significantly, you need to address that and set that boundary. Second, you have a say in how you want to plan your daughters' summers also. Don't let him push you into thinking otherwise.
plus I realized I did not take his ideas into consideration so much, life is short, and that I didn't have a good reason for not considering doing something like this
NO! It might be ok to think like this prior to BD & OW, but now it's a different story. You have every reason to NOT consider doing something like this. You are not comfortable with it period. You don't need to explain yourself to him.
may ~
Here's how it goes with dropping the rope:
You think you've dropped it. You reach a new level of detachment. You go a day, a week, a month, thinking the rope is dropped. Then something happens and you realize you haven't dropped that rope. Rinse, cycle, repeat. Over time you realize you are holding on less and less.
may ~
Here's how it goes with dropping the rope:
You think you've dropped it. You reach a new level of detachment. You go a day, a week, a month, thinking the rope is dropped. Then something happens and you realize you haven't dropped that rope. Rinse, cycle, repeat. Over time you realize you are holding on less and less.
Ain't that the truth how one week you are totally focused on your own life, and how another you can still be wrapped up in theirs. Its like almost being bi polar about the whole situation. Back and forth, pros and cons, need them, don't need them/want them. Things are great and new normal is great, then out of nowhere for no particular reason stuff crops up again, you have self realizations, move on, then dive back in. Like a lot of you guys here, it just lessons over time. Everyday I have to tell myself to let go completely. That this is what it is. Here and now.
I'd like to second Woosa on letting him know that you aren't comfortable planning any long trips at this moment.
Also, U, this is GOLD!
Here's how it goes with dropping the rope:
You think you've dropped it. You reach a new level of detachment. You go a day, a week, a month, thinking the rope is dropped. Then something happens and you realize you haven't dropped that rope. Rinse, cycle, repeat. Over time you realize you are holding on less and less.
I'm glad you had an enjoyable time with the kids and could see a future where you would be ok doing everything with just May + Kids. Happy Holidays!
Thanks guys...
I let myself get baited into a stupid argument this morning, and D9 got between us and begged us to stop. It was awful. And I can't help but think I just don't need this in my life. The kids don't need to see this. I can't shove down my resentment and let him say a**hole things to me anymore in the name of validation. But I also know this isn't anywhere near detachment. He still knows how to push my buttons, that is for sure, and it definitely brought me to a place where (out of anger) I was ready to say GTFO.
Then I (stupidly) called him on the way to work to talk through what had happened and explain how defensive I felt and why I responded the way I did. It did not go well (surprise!) and he ended up comparing the interaction to our whole M, where he isn't allowed to say anything (ha! ha! ha!) even when his way is the better and more logical way, so we end up doing everything in my less-optimal way.
I think I'm finally letting some of the anger and resentment about our sitch surface. The idea that this is actually probably going to happen--it isn't just a "rough patch" that can be smoothed over without the kids being affected-- is really hitting me hard and making me so angry with him. I've felt all along that once he hurts the kids with his selfishness that is what I can't forgive (and yes, Blu, those goalposts might very well move for me down the line) and now that it looks like it will really happen I am consumed and it is hard to not play right into his story line that our M is doomed anyway, we can never be happy together (why would I want to be with an a**hole), so why delay the inevitable.
U, thank you... I know it is a process, a very long process. I know anger isn't part of detachment. I feel like there are three paths in front of me for my own emotional state-- one is wishing so hard this wasn't happening and frantically doing what I can to keep our family intact (the path I've been on); one is letting anger and resentment for the choices he's making and how it will impact me and the kids get the best of me and letting that anger drive me forward (the path I feel myself inching towards); and then the middle path of loving detachment which feels like nirvana and just as impossible to reach. I think I need to just take myself and my emotions out of the situation and focus on the children and have empathy for what he is going through too, or I'll go down the anger path.
may- I would suggest to stay firm to your boundary which should be something like this: "we cannot plan long family trips when our M is not working". I would not hesitate to bring it up first esp if you think he's already planning. Burst his bubble immediately.
Do not be afraid of what he thinks, whether he's thinking you're holding the trip hostage/being vindictive etc. Don't be afraid even if this issue blows up and leads to separation. It's about your children.
First of all, on the finances front - are you okay with him planning a three month long solo trip? If his traveling expenses are going to impact your finances significantly, you need to address that and set that boundary. Second, you have a say in how you want to plan your daughters' summers also. Don't let him push you into thinking otherwise.
The finances, child care, actual real-life responsibilities-- this is why I pooh-poohed the idea in the first place. At this point, he's wanting three one-month trips for the next three summers. He has his own consulting practice and can probably keep up some level of work with a one-month hiatus, plus he is trying to get sponsors and thinks he can make $$ through blogging. (Mm-hmm.) If we are separated, I'm imagining if he wants to do this (which I don't care if he does, as long as he doesn't have the kids with him for more than a week) we'll have our finances separated as much as possible and he can spend his own $$ however he wants. I wouldn't be OK with him dipping into our savings, unless we separated that as well.
He thinks he's doing this for them, building an amazing lifetime experience that they'll always remember, but I think that is just masking the fact that he wishes he did something like this when he was their age, and he has missed out on all of this in his life, so is really doing it for himself. Of course they'd love a fun trip, but it isn't this hugely important thing that they'll never get to do otherwise if they don't do it exactly how he's planned. He brought it up the other night at dinner and for the first time the girls realized I wouldn't be there for the whole time (he said mom will be there for two weeks "no matter what" and looked me in the eye, I shook my head) and they were like no! Mom has to be there the whole time!
Maybe I am being selfish by saying no to this experience for them, but I honestly think a week-long experience with their dad is sufficient, and with all the trauma that we'll likely be going through this summer, I think being away from me for a full month is not going to be OK. (Let alone what it would be like for me.) It probably won't be good for them to have him be away for the other three weeks, but that is his call, not mine.
[quote=may22
I've felt all along that once he hurts the kids with his selfishness that is what I can't forgive (and yes, Blu, those goalposts might very well move for me down the line) and now that it looks like it will really happen I am consumed and it is hard to not play right into his story line that our M is doomed anyway, we can never be happy together (why would I want to be with an a**hole), so why delay the inevitable. [/quote]
May,
I’ve had the EXACT same thoughts about my W destroying my family and causing serious damage. After 7 months, I’ve decided to grant her wish of a D. She’s been sleeping elsewhere every night and has essentially abandoned us. I am pushing for custody and want to get a fresh start. W is deep in MLC/LIMERANCE and it’s not going to change any time soon. In the unlikely event she comes crawling back later, we will deal with that then.
It’s a tough decision, as I, like you, value a family unit. But she won’t know what she’s lost until it’s gone.
Hang in there and stay strong!
W
May, I just posted some similar feelings about anger on my thread. Hugs.
I don’t think you are being selfish regarding his proposed trip. You are being the sane parent. He will want to be friends and play nice in order to get what he wants, but you’ll see the mask slip off once you set boundaries and put your foot down. Use your anger to protect you and the kids. Get your ducks in a row regarding custody and finances and get it all formalised. You will be able to detach a lot more once you can avoid discussions about these things. No contact has been a sanity-saver for me. Nothing is irreversible as long as you continue to stand for your marriage, so try not to worry what his reactions or feelings will be, or what they mean. He will come back if he really wants to, and you and the kids will be safe and happy in the meantime.
You can do this!
May
Sorry I haven’t posted . Sometimes I worry he will figure out I’m on here and my name so I’ll leave details of why I haven’t been on out .
First hugs as always !!! You are one tough cookie .
Second . It’s ok to be angry . The part of detaching is not to let his emotions over run you . Your emotions are yours and you can feel them .
Taking a solid or stronger stance doesn’t have to be mean . Boundaries are for you . Example . I will not sleep next to someone who is actively involved with AP. The boundary is for your well being not so he stops sleeping with AP.
I agree with Blu on many points . When I tell you the number one reason he came home was he was not worried I was out looking for someone else but the real fear that someone would just sweep me off my feet . The more the weeks went by and he saw I didn’t stop my life the more he just kept coming over . We went out other night with his friends . They asked how I got his crazy $ss to come home ... what I did ?? I told them I did nothing. I let him go with a smile . I did tell them the only thing I made him do was ask to move home .
Don’t look at your fight yesterday as the end all be all . Look at it in 5 days and how you feel .
I can tell you showing strength will be good for you . Coming from the other side of this it grew me as a person. H called me the other day he did something that was just let’s say heartless . He’s waiting for me to blow up . It never came. Instead he calls me and says how scary it is that he’s waiting for a fight that just never comes . For me detaching is the realization he has to live with how he handles his life . If he chooses not to support his wife when she needed it that’s his weight to hold . I live with how I handle my emotions not his actions .
The hardest thing is the children . I get this . It was like someone ripping a newborn from their mother every time they left with H. It could go either way , if your H goes maybe he will realize the grass is not so green and you rebuild. Maybe you will find strength in being alone and won’t want him back . Either way MAY is going to be ok !
U, thank you... I know it is a process, a very long process. I know anger isn't part of detachment. I feel like there are three paths in front of me for my own emotional state-- one is wishing so hard this wasn't happening and frantically doing what I can to keep our family intact (the path I've been on); one is letting anger and resentment for the choices he's making and how it will impact me and the kids get the best of me and letting that anger drive me forward (the path I feel myself inching towards); and then the middle path of loving detachment which feels like nirvana and just as impossible to reach. I think I need to just take myself and my emotions out of the situation and focus on the children and have empathy for what he is going through too, or I'll go down the anger path.
may ~ Loving detachment does sound like an impossibility. And it is... I don't think anybody truly achieves 100% loving detachment (whatever that is). But for so many of us stuck in the middle of these emotionally perilous situations, AIMING for loving detachment is almost always the right choice. Even if we get partway there, it's better than being held hostage by our intense emotions.
I'm right there with you on anger about what this does to the kids. But you know what? I moved out 6 months ago, and my relationship with my kids, even on limited time, is the best it has ever been. My kids are doing well. What wasn't working for them? My W and I cohabitating in the same house with a palpable tension for months on end.
What's best for you kids is YOU being the best mom you can be for them. That's all you can do. Whether you are married or not.
"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die" - one of my favorite quotes ever. I think there is a place for some healthy anger and resentment, but when it is all-consuming I think that's a signal to work on detachment because all that energy is not going towards your own health and happiness which is what you need most.
You are incredibly strong and going through one of the crazier situations I have read about here. Hang in there, things do get better.
I went to yoga with a 10 minute meditation session at the end yesterday before heading home for dinner, and it really helped to calm down. I was fueled by residual anger and resentment from our argument in the morning (which basically just opened the hatch for the anger and resentment I feel for our whole sitch) and was considering opening up a conversation last night about him moving out and his trip plans, but after yoga decided no need to rush into anything, and capitalizing on the argument wasn't a good idea for either of us.
I'm still working through what I'll say to him and when about my boundaries. Tell me if I'm getting this right (I definitely am needing help still on boundaries for myself vs. controlling him):
-- I don't want to sleep in the same bed with (possibly, be in an MR with, live in the same house with...) someone who is actively pursuing an affair. I feel it is disrespectful, cruel, and just plain wrong. It is eating into my self-confidence and eroding any remaining trust I have for H. This is HIS CHOICE, but if he is unable to stop communicating with AP, he needs to go.
-- I will not be friends with, or play happy family with, a man who leaves me and breaks up a family for another woman. We will not vacation together. We will not eat meals together. I will hopefully have to see him and communicate with him as little as possible. This is for my own self-protection and healing.
-- I will not lie to the children (or anyone else) about this being my choice too.
-- I am not comfortable with my children being away from me for more than a week this summer, under the circumstances. Those are the ground rules and we can work from there in how he can continue to plan his trip.
And, even with all this on the brain, last night was a good family night. Ate leftovers, snuggled on the couch with the kids and watched the Mandalorian. Both girls tend to snuggle with me on "my" side of the couch, and if he can't get one to come snuggle him he scoots over to join in. I have been trying to not be overly friendly, but I have been responsive if he starts conversations.
I'm figuring the best move is to plan what I'll say and be ready the next time he opens up an R conversation or a conversation about his trip? Thoughts? I did say I'd go to see his IC with him with the express desire (from him though I 100% agree) for her to get a more rounded picture of what is going on, since all she knows of me is how he describes me and he's aware that is a very one-sided view. I know he's described me as "controlling" to her, and originally I was thinking it was a good opportunity to be calm, rational, validate, and state my desires in front of her. Now I'm wondering if I should go over my boundaries in that setting. He will perceive this all as threats-- if you leave me, I'll do XYZ-- and I'm wondering if it is better to discuss in front of a professional, or given the fact that she already has been hearing a litany of how I'm controlling and painting a threatening picture of S and D, I should stick with my original plan?
I’ve had the EXACT same thoughts about my W destroying my family and causing serious damage. After 7 months, I’ve decided to grant her wish of a D. She’s been sleeping elsewhere every night and has essentially abandoned us. I am pushing for custody and want to get a fresh start. W is deep in MLC/LIMERANCE and it’s not going to change any time soon. In the unlikely event she comes crawling back later, we will deal with that then.
W, I've been following your sitch too-- so difficult and I really feel for you. This thing about the kids is the hardest. I also have been thinking about the value of moving to D NOW to get the best deal I can with custody, etc. (he said I could live here with the kids 100% of the time and he'd still pay half the mortgage) but I just think that it isn't realistic that he'd stick to that once we got further down the line. I'm happy for you that you have some clarity in what is best for you and the kids and can move forward. Here's to a better 2020!!
May, I just posted some similar feelings about anger on my thread. Hugs.
I don’t think you are being selfish regarding his proposed trip. You are being the sane parent. He will want to be friends and play nice in order to get what he wants, but you’ll see the mask slip off once you set boundaries and put your foot down. Use your anger to protect you and the kids. Get your ducks in a row regarding custody and finances and get it all formalised. You will be able to detach a lot more once you can avoid discussions about these things. No contact has been a sanity-saver for me. Nothing is irreversible as long as you continue to stand for your marriage, so try not to worry what his reactions or feelings will be, or what they mean. He will come back if he really wants to, and you and the kids will be safe and happy in the meantime.
Hi Scout,
The mask slipping off... I know it will and I'm not looking forward to it. We both know how to hit the other where it really hurts, and I fear that is where we're going. I have been researching attorneys online and will try to set something up in the new year.
I've been following your journey and feel so deeply for you and am so impressed with how you have handled everything. One problem/difference in my sitch is that my kids are older and and my H is a really terrific father-- I can't imagine him skipping out on a visitation opportunity with them-- and while I would never take that away from them, I have moments where I selfishly imagine he is enough of an a-hole to drop out of all our lives and we could just move on without him. I envision my older daughter getting angry at me for "making daddy leave" or not being nice enough to daddy so he left. UGH.
Sending you hugs too, Scout-- you are so strong and I think your decision is the right one.
It’s ok to be angry . The part of detaching is not to let his emotions over run you . Your emotions are yours and you can feel them .
Taking a solid or stronger stance doesn’t have to be mean . Boundaries are for you . Example . I will not sleep next to someone who is actively involved with AP. The boundary is for your well being not so he stops sleeping with AP.
Hi CG!! It is so good to hear from you
and glad to hear things are going well. I took your advice to heart on my boundaries in the post above-- let me know what you think. I like the part about letting myself feel the emotions without acting on them. Easier said than done but the idea makes sense to me.
The hardest thing is the children . I get this . It was like someone ripping a newborn from their mother every time they left with H. It could go either way , if your H goes maybe he will realize the grass is not so green and you rebuild. Maybe you will find strength in being alone and won’t want him back . Either way MAY is going to be ok !
Yes, the kids... I still can't really fathom this part. But I am starting to feel my own strength and understanding that I WILL be OK, no matter what happens-- thanks in great part to you and others on this board who are helping me to truly get this.
may ~ Loving detachment does sound like an impossibility. And it is... I don't think anybody truly achieves 100% loving detachment (whatever that is). But for so many of us stuck in the middle of these emotionally perilous situations, AIMING for loving detachment is almost always the right choice. Even if we get partway there, it's better than being held hostage by our intense emotions.
I'm right there with you on anger about what this does to the kids. But you know what? I moved out 6 months ago, and my relationship with my kids, even on limited time, is the best it has ever been. My kids are doing well. What wasn't working for them? My W and I cohabitating in the same house with a palpable tension for months on end.
What's best for you kids is YOU being the best mom you can be for them. That's all you can do. Whether you are married or not.
"Resentment is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die" - one of my favorite quotes ever. I think there is a place for some healthy anger and resentment, but when it is all-consuming I think that's a signal to work on detachment because all that energy is not going towards your own health and happiness which is what you need most.
U, this post really resonated with me. Thank you. The idea of intentionality mattering, and aiming for something that I may not ever fully reach but is the right thing to do... that speaks to me powerfully. Also, really glad to hear about your R with your kids. I actually feel like both my R with the kids and H's R with the kids is now better than it ever has been also, because both of us have focused on being better parents and being more present. Being there for the kids is something I CAN do, and if this moves in the direction I think it will they'll need me to be.
may ~ In the line of "keep doing what works," hope you can find time to do yoga/meditation regularly if it works well for you. Meditation has helped me a ton with handling my emotions in a healthier way.
Regarding your boundaries:
-- I don't want to sleep in the same bed with (possibly, be in an MR with, live in the same house with...) someone who is actively pursuing an affair. I feel it is disrespectful, cruel, and just plain wrong. It is eating into my self-confidence and eroding any remaining trust I have for H. This is HIS CHOICE, but if he is unable to stop communicating with AP, he needs to go.
Good boundary. I don't think you need to explain your feelings to him. Just a simple "I won't share a bed with you while you are having an A."
-- I will not be friends with, or play happy family with, a man who leaves me and breaks up a family for another woman. We will not vacation together. We will not eat meals together. I will hopefully have to see him and communicate with him as little as possible. This is for my own self-protection and healing.
Good boundary. Again, "I won't vacation with you or eat meals with you while you continue the A."
-- I will not lie to the children (or anyone else) about this being my choice too.
I'm not sure you even need to state this one. Maybe the vets have more advice.
-- I am not comfortable with my children being away from me for more than a week this summer, under the circumstances. Those are the ground rules and we can work from there in how he can continue to plan his trip.
I think this is less a boundary and more a negotiating position. Just stick to it as your position.
As for the IC... what do you expect to get out of going?
Re: going for D sooner... I think most people here would say move forward when you are emotionally ready. Ignore the tactical advantages. Sure, he said you could have 100% custody in passing. As soon as the ball gets rolling, he may completely change his mind.
Re: kids... All you can do is be the best mom you can be for those kids in whatever circumstances. You don't know what life is going to throw at you. Just like we can't control the feelings of our WAS's, we can't control how our kids feel as they grow up. Maybe they will resent us for our parenting choices. Maybe they will want to move far away to have time and space. Maybe they will want to live next door and see us every day.
What we can control is how we parent them, and show them how we handle adversity. We can be role models for how to handle our emotions, how to be in the present, how to enjoy life regardless of the sh*tstorm tornado that may be swirling around us at any moment. We do our best.
I truly believe I am a better parent now. I'm not the parent I want to be, but I am better, and I draw a lot of strength from that. Focus on you and your kids, that's what they need. Kids are resilient. My oldest is almost 8, similar to the ages of yours, and I worry about his adjustment to this situation the most. He has friends whose parents are D'd. He understands it. I worry about him constantly and how this affects him. But it's outside my control.
So if anyone is around and has time to share any advice...
I am fairly confident there will be an R talk tonight. We'd agreed to wait until after Christmas to restart any discussions and here we are... plus, our kids are going to a sleepover so we'll have the whole night alone, and he brought up the trip again yesterday with the kids and made meaningful eye contact with me as he talked about it. I think he's going to start making significant, difficult-to-change plans once we hit the new year. I know he *knows* in his heart that this trip isn't happening like he thinks it will if we aren't together, but it is part of his post-S fantasy and even if he wants to keep living in the dream, I don't want to be a part of it and I think I need to say it clearly and out loud to him now.
So...
I think what I would like to say to him is that I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and I hadn't understood until fairly recently that he was still actively engaged in another R; I don't think that is right or fair; I don't want to pretend. If he chooses to continue, he can't live here like this any more. (I can't live with him here like this any more? How to I make it clear this is a boundary for me, not a mechanism for controlling him?)
Then I kind of want to leave it up to him to decide how he wants to respond to that. I don't want to tell him to go, but I also am not all that interested in him just moving to the office and continuing to pretend like everything else is fine. I think he needs to go. I feel though very strongly that it needs to be HIS decision, not mine, for him to leave, since I am not going to be the one who takes that step. I will not be the parent that forces that on our kids.
That being said, as many of you have pointed out, him getting to live here and have all the parts he wants of an M without being fully invested and having his AP on the side is not OK with me any more. It is messing with my confidence. I don't need a half-a$$ed H without some commitment to work on the MR. I have gotten to a place where I feel like this for ME, not to extract any kind of response from him, or feeling like he needs to feel the consequences of his actions. I simply don't want to be in the current situation any more. (Maybe I will backtrack on this but it is how I am feeling the last few days.)
Talking about the trip will absolutely infuriate him. I'm not sure how to address this except it might make him angry enough to walk... what I hope is that he can see it from my POV and that I'm not trying to be vindictive or take something away from him or from the kids. I'll try to stay calm and validate, but stick to my position-- under the circumstances, especially this summer if we are in the thick of S and/or D, and with him being involved with another woman, I am not OK with being away from my kids for more than a week, nor am I OK with vacationing together like everything is fine.
His parents come in a week and a half. I think I'll tell him they of course can stay here but ask him how he intends to handle where he stays, and reiterate that I'm not interested in being his friend or spending time together outside what is absolutely necessary, if he is going to leave our M.
My best guess is he'll say he'll move to the office, at least for the time his parents are here, and then probably will want to move to the basement. I'm not sure this is the best option for my well-being. I feel like that might be OK if he commits to NC while he's still in this house (and can prove it to me). Thoughts?
U-- thanks for the encouragement on focusing on parenting. That really helps. I'll keep thinking about the IC and what I intend to get out of it-- ideally an opportunity to break up the echo chamber of his IC and challenge some of the assumptions that are part of what is taking place there.
I am fairly confident there will be an R talk tonight.
Do you want to have the talk tonight? You can choose not to, if you want.
I think what I would like to say to him is that I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and I hadn't understood until fairly recently that he was still actively engaged in another R; I don't think that is right or fair; I don't want to pretend. If he chooses to continue, he can't live here like this any more. (I can't live with him here like this any more? How to I make it clear this is a boundary for me, not a mechanism for controlling him?)
Less is more with wording.
A good way to cut out words is to cut out any of your reasoning. You don't need to tell him you think it's not right or fair. You don't need to tell him why. Think of all these extra words as dilution of your message.
It doesn't matter if he thinks it is controlling - you set the boundary for YOUR health and well-being.
"If you continue to engage in this R, you cannot live here anymore."
Then I kind of want to leave it up to him to decide how he wants to respond to that. I don't want to tell him to go, but I also am not all that interested in him just moving to the office and continuing to pretend like everything else is fine. I think he needs to go. I feel though very strongly that it needs to be HIS decision, not mine, for him to leave, since I am not going to be the one who takes that step. I will not be the parent that forces that on our kids.
So what is your boundary if he continues in the relationship? I think you need to determine that boundary. It sounds like you'd like him to move out, but you don't want to tell him to move out, you want it to be his idea.
I completely understand not wanting to feel like the parent that is forcing D. WAS's are great at absolving themselves of that responsibility.
Or you could reframe this as... you want to protect your kids from an unhealthy situation.
Talking about the trip will absolutely infuriate him.
"H, I can tell this really upsets you."
I'm not sure how to address this except it might make him angry enough to walk... what I hope is that he can see it from my POV and that I'm not trying to be vindictive or take something away from him or from the kids.
He will not see it from your POV. He may well think it is vindictive. Too bad.
U-- thanks for the encouragement on focusing on parenting. That really helps. I'll keep thinking about the IC and what I intend to get out of it-- ideally an opportunity to break up the echo chamber of his IC and challenge some of the assumptions that are part of what is taking place there.
Just as you can't control what your H thinks, you can't control what his IC thinks.
I think it's okay to go to his IC under 2 conditions:
1) You feel mentally and emotionally strong enough to handle whatever comes your way.
2) You go in with no expectations.
If you are hoping to upend the narrative of his IC sessions, don't go. Just my two cents.
I think what I would like to say to him is that I've been thinking a lot about our situation, and I hadn't understood until fairly recently that he was still actively engaged in another R; I don't think that is right or fair; I don't want to pretend. If he chooses to continue, he can't live here like this any more. (I can't live with him here like this any more? How to I make it clear this is a boundary for me, not a mechanism for controlling him?)
1. Don’t say that you’ve been thinking about it a lot. 2. Just be short and clear and state your boundaries. Saying things like “if you choose to continue” sounds like exerting control to me. Maybe other vets have suggestion on wording.
I feel though very strongly that it needs to be HIS decision, not mine, for him to leave, since I am not going to be the one who takes that step. I will not be the parent that forces that on our kids.
You need to take the necessary steps to protect yourself. Maybe ultimately it will be D when you decide not to stand anymore. But either way I feel like you can’t keep this mentality of “I’m not going to be the parent who does this.” Sometimes you have to be the one to take action and it doesn’t make you a bad parent. Remember that the BD was from him. He is the one with the OW. The fear of doing something to contribute to the end of M might become your downfall.
Talking about the trip will absolutely infuriate him. I'm not sure how to address this except it might make him angry enough to walk... what I hope is that he can see it from my POV and that I'm not trying to be vindictive or take something away from him or from the kids. I'll try to stay calm and validate, but stick to my position-- under the circumstances, especially this summer if we are in the thick of S and/or D, and with him being involved with another woman, I am not OK with being away from my kids for more than a week, nor am I OK with vacationing together like everything is fine.
Stick to your guns. Don’t worry whether it will upset him, just make yourself clear about what you want and what you don’t want. If you don’t want him in the house, tell him that. You should already assume that he cannot go NC with OW at this point, again this statement below shows you are still hoping for change at the moment:
I feel like that might be OK if he commits to NC while he's still in this house (and can prove it to me). Thoughts?
Don’t wishfully think that he’s gonna go NC if he stays. If you allow him to stay, you need to be able to drop the expectation and be ok with that.
Just my 2 cents.
Stay strong!
U/W,
I definitely want moving out to be his idea. BUT, I also feel like it lets me take back a little of the power to be the one to say this isn't working and he needs to go, which is helpful for me personally to take back a little self-respect. While I've been focusing on the DB strategies and our R (how we get along etc.) much of that has been empowering for me because I have seen improvement in our interactions, plus the side benefits of GALing, getting in shape, etc. Now, though, that empowering feeling has started to fade, and I'm feeling like I don't want to be in an R with someone who is so disrespectful and weak that he's unable to stop communicating with AP.
I guess I need to do some more thinking about what I am and am not OK with. I basically am done with him living here and continuing the R with AP. I'm sure I'll backslide when he actually does go and the kids and all that... but I'm ready to say I'm not OK with things continuing as they are.
I hear the "less is more" in communicating but I just don't see that happening with us given our R and how we communicate... though maybe I can focus on validating and listening more rather than speaking. (180!!) I also don't want to hear about his feelings for AP. That is another boundary for me-- it just isn't necessary and is hurtful. I don't give a s**t about how he feels about her, honestly. I care more about his actions towards me and the kids and how his continued pursuit of another R is damaging our family.
W, on the NC wishful thinking-- you're right-- it is just that the timing of his parents' visit is super awkward and I'm not sure I can stick it out with them here and pretending everything is OK. (I'm feeling a bit more empathetic now for him totally withdrawing when my parents were here.) So I'm just thinking through what this all means, if we have this conversation now and they get here in a week-- the likelihood is he won't have another place to go, he won't want to blow anything up in a major way right before or while his parents are here, but at the same time *I* really don't want to keep stringing this whole thing out and keeping the status quo for another three weeks.
I guess I am thinking that I'm OK with him staying here and continuing some level of family-like behaviors while his parents are here, only if he can commit to and prove to me he isn't in touch with her. That doesn't mean that he's deciding today he wants to commit to the R, but it does mean that he can't live here and keep talking to her. Maybe that keeps limbo going a little longer. But I'm having a hard time figuring out how to stand up for my own health and well-being while his parents are here.
may ~ Gentle question: Why do you want it to be his decision to move out?
Also, it is entirely reasonable to set a boundary regarding him talking about his feelings about OW: "I will not entertain a discussion about your feelings for her." You can say this calmly and then walk away. You don't need to validate absolutely everything.
hi U,
The reason I want it to be his decision is that I know how much it is going to devastate the kids, and I don't want to be any sort of party to that. He needs to be the one to take responsibility for doing this to the family. He needs to be the one to tell them. I'm not going to sit down and be any sort of party to a "Mommy and Daddy decided this is best but we both love you very much.." kind of thing-- of course, the "we both love you very much" is true and I'll say that till I'm blue in the face, but all of what is happening now was his choice, not mine.
Yes, partially I don't want to give him the easy, guilt-reducing out of "my wife kicked me out" or whatever... but more so, at the end of all of this, more than anything I want to know deep in my own heart that I did absolutely everything I could to make this M and this family work for my kids. I want to be able to look them in the eyes and know this was not my doing.
Also, one of the biggest areas of anger for me on all of this is that I haven't felt he has really tried to make it work-- he got involved with this woman while we were in the middle of MC. Through all of this trauma we have both learned a lot about each other, improved our communication, and I've come to a very different place in terms of how I feel about physical affection and sex. He (whether he will admit it or not) has also vastly improved his communication, anger management, and tremendously stepped up his game in terms of being a more equitable partner in household tasks. We are very, very good friends-- he still says "best friends"-- and I'm angry that he isn't willing to actually try to see if we could make a go of it and fall back "in love" because he's so obsessed with this girl. I have felt like if I knew in my heart we had both given our MR our 100% attention and energy for a decent period of time-- together-- and it still didn't work, then I could see parting as friends. But I have a lot of anger about his half-a$$ed "trying" and his involvement with another person. So maybe it is me being a little vindictive to make him do all the heavy lifting on moving out and breaking up the family. But I don't want him to be able to say it was a joint decision.
If that ends up meaning I need to suffer through more of this limbo, I guess I will. For whatever reason, him moving out and the havoc that will wreak on our kids, not to mention friends, family, etc is a bright line for me. I have felt like I could forgive anything but that-- up till now he's only hurt me, but when the kids get involved it takes it to a whole new level of unforgiveability. And I know that may change in the future (thanks Blu for the gentle push on this) but for now, I feel like getting the children involved is a major step I'm not willing to take, and if he wants that, he has to do it.
(Clearly I'm not detached!!)
May,
I feel your pain. You summed up how I feel with my sitch almost exactly. My W is so deep in her EA she can’t see one foot in front of her. Uses all the MLC jargon about not being able to re-fall in love, blah blah blah. Then says things like “drive safely” to me as I leave for work in the morning. I recently told her I was letting her go. We are heading toward D mediation soon.
I guess my advice is to not try to figure H out at all. He is a mess right now and you can’t get inside his foggy head. Keep taking care of yourself and the kids and hang in there!
W
So. We had the R talk.
Interesting new tidbit of information-- they've been seeing each other since they first met, more than 2 years ago. And it has been a PA a long time-- sounds like at least a year, maybe more like a year and a half. Used condoms at first, they're both clean so not anymore. They had sex the last time he saw her (November). Thanks to Steve85 and others, I wasn't that surprised, though the length of time it has gone on was pretty f*ed up.
I told him to get out, I can't live like this. He said he owns half this house and if I want to go I should go. I said that was not going to happen. This is my house and my family. He is the one who has made these choices, not me.
He keeps harping on the SSM and that I caused this. He got angry multiple times. He repeated over and over that we would NEVER have a sexual relationship if we got back together. He is not attracted to me, he doesn't ever want to have sex with me, when we did he felt terrible afterwards. That I caused this.
[Then... I am sure I'll get 2x4s for this, but we got into a conversation with him being all PO-ed that I *now* am interested in becoming a sexual being-- something we had talked about since BD. We talked about the sex we did have recently and I told him he had said one night he felt bad because he wanted "animalistic" sex and that wasn't what he thought I wanted. I said to him i thought about it and I wasn't opposed to animalistic sex but it had to be good sex, not shi**y slam-bam-thank-you-maam like we've been having. He then said let's do it now, I'll make it good for you, etc. I was totally confused... called his bluff... he was INDEED very interested. So we did let off some steam, much better than recent history. I honestly feel 0% emotion related to it and we were able to talk without anger about a number of things afterwards. I have zero expectations and am surprised I was actually interested in doing it, probably as surprised as I was that he wanted to. After he was like "you are a different person" (I think he wants to keep me in this asexual box) and we talked for awhile about sex generally.] Anyway... I'm sorry if I disappointed anyone with this, but I was frankly curious to see if he'd take it that far after yelling at me multiple times we would NEVER have sex again blah blah blah.
We talked for a long time. No real resolution. He knows where I stand-- he needs to go, we won't be friends, etc. He thinks I'm "a better person" than this-- when push comes to shove, I'll be friends with him in a D because it is in the best interest of the girls. And if I am not OK with him owning half the house and having access to it, he'll push for 50/50 custody. I said fine. (I sincerely doubt that would ever have been a real option anyway). He backed down, complaining I'm not focused on the best for the girls.
We talked about the trip. He wasn't as angry as I thought he would be but is continuing to refuse to accept it won't happen. At one point he said he was looking forward to this trip second only to the births of our daughters. (I got a lot of "if you really loved me you would XYZ, set me free, etc. MLC, anyone?) I told him he had earlier told me he didn't want to stay married just for these trips and I wanted to tell him now before he had gotten too far down the planning path. he said he thought he maybe did want to stay married just to go on these. UGH... I think this is his "we are technically married but I still do whatever the F I want, we sleep in different bedrooms (this was a condition he told me if we stayed married) version of M.
We laid out a few different paths.
One, he goes, finds a place, we get a non-amicable divorce, he tries to make it work with AP. (She may move here.) We are not friends. (He doesn't believe I will follow through on this.)
Two, he moves to the basement for three months and we reevaluate after that. If he does this, he needs to commit to NC with AP. We talked about what that might look like and how I could trust he was really NC-- I gave him some pretty in-your-face examples, like he would call her with me on the line to tell her they were over, he shared with me the mechanics of how they contacted each other in the past and was transparent with me so I could know I could check if needed, etc. He said he is thinking about this (which was a huge surprise to me, to be honest-- I just wanted to have it as a possibility.) If he does this, my plan would be to be as dark as possible during the S as well.
Three... I don't really know. He stays? Knows he has to completely cut it off with AP? Which seems impossible? I tried to get him to tell me before he went to bed (in the office-- I told him he is no longer sleeping in my bed) what he thought his options were and he was like I don't know. I want you to tell me. I want us to decide together. I am trying, I have been trying for all these years because I am still here and didn't leave. We (AP and H) have tried so many times to cut things off and we couldn't. He spoke to her today (anniversary of her BIL's death, which he had told me sparked the EA but in fact they had already been in a PA for a year and had cut it off a month or so before, but she called him because she had "no one else to talk to" about her BIL's death). He told me he asked her today if she thought they would have cut things off completely if her BIL hadn't died and she said yes, she would have moved on. He said she is going to pieces about all of this and she's told him she's done. (He is all sorts of messed up about this, he is also worried that now he'll tell her he's told me everything and she'll be like why did you do that??? and dump him too, because she doesn't want to be that person.) He doesn't think he is limerent with her because they've gone through so much, been together on and off for two years-- he thinks this is the real thing. He recognized there was a stage of limerence but feels that is over. He does recognize they haven't spent all that much time together etc and so don't REALLY know if they could make it work in the long term but continued the deep emotional connection talk, she loves him, she makes him feel special, she wants him, she understands him, blah blah blah. (U, I did tell him I don't feel I need to hear about how he feels about her and he mostly respected it though it makes him angry because I "just don't understand and/or am not listening." But it was just too much to hear him go on and on about her. However, it was worse when he started talking about how madly he used to be in love with ME and now that was gone.)
So-- I'm ready for him to go but totally mind f**ked about all of this-- I can't believe this has been going on for TWO YEARS! So way, way before we started MC. And, he won't f-ing leave our house!! he's like, I want to move into the office. I said, not good enough. He said the basement? I said, not ideally. Then (all huffy) so I need to pay a lease on another place? YES.
I said a few things that made him ask if I've looked into the financial ramifications of D, I said yes I had, he hasn't... but he thinks we can co-own our house, girls live here with me and he pays half the mortgage and has full access to the house. I said I'd rather sell the house than do that and he threw it back at me that I didn't have the best interests of the girls at heart. or, i could sell it to him and maybe AP has the $ to buy me out and the girls could live here. I did not dignify that with an answer. (Though it makes me think maybe my parents could help me buy him out.)
He said he didn't want to make any decisions tonight. He was very emotional and said he was terrified of getting D, of hurting the kids, of hurting me. That he loves me and his ideal is to bring the R we have now and have had for some time "into the light"-- basically good friends but not lovers. He can't believe his life has turned out this way. Etc etc. At the same time, he did try to blame me every chance he got for the SSM and that I was at fault for all this happening. I pushed back (thanks Blu!!) but it is clear that is the narrative he has told himself for all these years. At one point he was like I should have been happy he was getting it elsewhere since I didn't want to give it to him.
Anyway. Hurtful, awful stuff. Overall I think I did OK (except the sex interlude, though it really meant nothing except interesting that he did it). I cried a couple of times as did he. I was very consistent with my message-- I will not be the one to break this M up. BUT I was not willing to live with him if he was in a continued affair. And, I was not willing to contemplate a fantasy friendly D with another woman in the picture, ever. Sorry.
It was pushing 1 am and he was really tired (I know I won't be able to sleep tonight so whatevs) and I said while he doesn't need to make the decision now, he does need to make it... when? He couldn't answer. He asked for some time to process. I said OK but I wasn't faking it when his parents are here (1.5 weeks) and he said OK. He was planning to tell them. He said his mom is "prepped" (apparently he told her a couple of years ago that we had some problems in the bedroom. Her answer was to fix it.) He also said his mom is very pro marriage (duh) and I'm exhausted already thinking of what it is going to be like when they get here, regardless of where he is sleeping.
Glad everything is finally out in the open, if nothing else. Thanks to all of you for your continued support and prepping. I am not hopeful that our M will last, at all, but am ready for what comes next. A big part of me doesn't really understand why he isn't just going on his own two feet... I have suspected the PA for some time, also that this was a longer R than he had admitted, but this is much worse than I had thought. I kind of wish he would just leave.
May ~ I don’t have much time to post but want to say you did a great job staying strong. That sounds like it was an incredibly tough conversation.
Also saying what’s “best for the kids” is common when it’s really what is best for the parent. My W does that too. So do I sometimes.
I am behind again on reading here -- too much craziness between family, work, holidays -- but I did just read your update. I am sort of in shock. Wow! ....
I have a couple questions. Why did you sleep with him and what did you gain from that? Also, again, why do you think that by allowing him to stay in the house you can decide that he will have to go NC with OW? (this is a form of control and you cannot control him) ... I am so confused as to what your goals right now? Maybe you need some time to think about that given the new (and very upsetting) info ...
May, you know you cannot make him decide to want to be with you? Even if he goes NC with her and stays in the home, you cannot make him desire to be with you. You know that, right? There is nothing you can do (or control) how he feels about you and wanting to be with you. Do you just want him there, or do you want an H that wants you and respects you? ... I know that is super hard, but I think you have to wrap your head around that first ....
... I am not sure how much advice you want right now, but I do have some for you if you want it ..........
Blu
Hi Blu,
I do want advice. I'm spinning.
I don't know why I decided to sleep with him. I felt like he was trying to bait me into saying no and demonstrating that I am not a sexual being. I really thought he was just trying to see what I would do and I wanted to call his bluff. I also felt this anger/jealousy/possessiveness, plus the fact that he had been saying over and over literally minutes before that he could never see himself in a sexual R with me, that when we did have sex he felt horrible about it afterwards, etc., that I kind of wanted to see it through after he was saying all that stuff. Not proud of it but there you go.
He doesn't want to leave the house. He says I can't make him leave, he is half owner, if I want to go I can go. Which I categorically refuse to do. I said I didn't think the office was good enough and the basement wasn't really either. I wanted something with a real separation. He suggested separating for some period of time, like three months, with him living in the basement. I said the only way I could see that working is if he was not in contact with her at all and could prove it to me. I threw that out there, not thinking it was a real option, and was pretty surprised when he told me that he is thinking about it.
He cried and said he is so deeply ambivalent about what to do. He's been working this through with his IC for a year and can't decide. He said he is incredibly fearful of D but he also doesn't want to give up a chance at happiness with AP and with her he realizes what a healthy sexual R is like, someone who really cares about HIM, etc. I guess yesterday she told him (yet again) she's done... I think a big part of him would welcome three months of NC with both of us so that he can have some mental rest. He feels like either he hurts her or he hurts me and the kids, and he'll be hurt no matter which choice he makes. He feels paralyzed and is mentally unwell. (join the club)
He also really wants to find some path of S/D where we continue to be best friends and travel partners, living ("ideally on the same property, but maybe next door") with AP. I just kept repeating that will never happen, that if he leaves me for this woman I simply cannot work through some fantasy best friend co-parenting R with him. I have said I could imagine getting to that point if, if if if, we both tried our best to work on our M and decided together that we were better apart. But in the current scenario I'm not willing to have those conversations or consider that kind of co-parenting R.
I do know he doesn't want to be with me right now, and that I can't make him want me. I do want an H that loves and respects me. I would far prefer that person be him, for the kids... but I also am so angry and disgusted that I now need to revisit the last two years of my life with this new lens of him scr**wing another woman and telling her he loves her, I am also fine with him going and never coming back. Unfortunately that isn't an option either.
Sorry, one more thought in response to Blu's question-- he wants more than anything for me to say yes, we're done, let's get a D (he actually doesn't want to get D, he thinks we should just S, he never intends to get married again so better for me to stay on his health insurance etc. than get D until I decide I want to remarry. D is just a piece of paper.). He wants this to be a joint decision. He said he could have walked two years ago, or a year ago, or any day if that is what he wanted to do, but he wants this to be something we decide to do together. And I'm simply not willing to give him that, at least right now. I have said to him over and over this is his decision, he can leave the M, I can't and won't stop him, but I'm not going to make that decision for him.
So without me saying yes, please, let's get divorced and be BFFs and without him being willing to actually leave, that is how we got to that 3 month basement/NC with AP compromise. I guess if we do go that route my goal would be to detach as much as possible, see him as little as possible during that time and make it a real separation. On the other end, my two best case scenarios would be (a) I realize I'm better off without him and don't want him back or (b) he gains some clarity and decides he wants back in, assuming I'm still wanting that as well. He thinks we should see an MC during this time.
If he doesn't choose the 3 month separation/NC with AP route, I would really like him to go elsewhere and not live in the basement for true separation. I just don't think I can handle his proximity while he carries on his R with another person.
May: He's wrong. You absolutely CAN make him go. Get a lawyer right now. You can file for divorce and get an order requiring him to leave. I don't know what state you are in but adultery is fault ground almost everywhere. This is one of the most unbelieveable situations I have seen in a long time. I am so sorry.
What a piece of work. If he's so terrified about divorce, maybe he'll rethink his actions that have put it into motion.
PS: I wonder what chickiebod would think if she knew he was still sleeping with you.
Hi Newbie,
I live in a no-fault state. I'm also not positive I want to definitely pursue the D route instead of S, since there are some pretty significant financial benefits to me of staying legally married (for now) and I don't think I could buy him out of the house. I need to get in touch with a lawyer and pull some financial documents later today to get a sense for what this all will look like.
He says she knows everything. And doesn't like it. Though I'm sure his version of what has been happening is different from mine.
And onto a new thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/foru...flat&Number=2878316&#Post2878316