New thread
Link to old thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2872082#Post2872082Saw my counsellor today, spoke about my fear of sending Xmas mail, and wifes anger in response and the cold shoulder,
Discussed that it was me setting a boundary and that if not used to it, it would be difficult.
She raised one interesting point when I mentioned I felt like I was hurting her by standing firm on Xmas,
She queried whether a part of me wanted to,
Honestly I think a part of me did. Although I was clear I also felt I had to stand up for myself and stop avoiding conflict and resulting resentment and eventual passive aggressive behaviour.
After the session, I have to admit I'm having a bit of a wobble today
I still care deeply for my wife, love her and don't want her in pain.
Had thoughts of me turning around before Christmas and offering her the time with kids Xmas eve and Xmas morning.
Know I will be thinking of her a lot at this time and just want things to be resolved.
At the same time I would be making myself a martyr to protect her from the pain.
Her anger remains palpable, huge change in that she only sent 1 message today
Her: reminder s12 has dental appointment at 5
I didn't respond, I had this diarised and covered.
Then s12 isn't were he was supposed to be when I picked him up from the bus stop, it's a new route for him staying at mine, and caused a lot of panic as his phone is in for repair.
Phoned my wife and we both searched the local area seperately and made all the calls.
Eventually he turned up at my flat , having got off a mile early and deciding to walk along the sea front.
After all of this she is still brewing with anger, I can see it, she is actively avoiding any eye contact with me, will not speak or engage with anything but the fewest words and is in an absolute rush to get away from me.
She's acting as if she both hates me and fears me as she doubles down on this narrative.
I feel very compelled to try and build some bridges, but feel it would change nothing when she's so consumed in this portrait of me.
Right now I feel my sitch is hopeless, do Waw's ever soften over time in these sitch's, it feels so final and the longer this has gone on, the more her hate and more solidified on her decision she seems to be.
She hasn't mentioned divorce yet, but this is because she sees seperation as the same thing, divorce just being the more legal and expensive option.
As far as she is concerned the marriage is dead.
I strongly suspect it's only a matter of time before she's with a grass is greener om
Funnily my counsellor suggested asking her to attend MC due to some of her obvious issues and dynamic of the relationship, made it clear that just asking would be a red rag to a bull.
Counsellor did have some interesting views on attachment types and likelihood both me and my wife were fluid between anxious and avoident styles.
More reading to do.
Just posting thoughts and updates
Let my d6 vidchat wife this morning before school. I overheard wife mention some money that d6 needed to take in.
I let my wife know I was there and asked to confirm what was needed.
Her: I'm talking to d6 not you!
Having to just ride the storm of her anger and hatred towards me, this makes it really hard to maintain any inner hope.
I continue to have conflicting thoughts about wanting to reach out and offer her an olive branch.
She perceives any attempt from me to be positive or friendly as manipulative.
And any assertiveness or saying no as confirmation I'm controlling and an A###hole.
I do wonder with her particular history and psychological make up make this harder.
She sees everything through a filter of abuse and has frequently cut people out of her life she perceives to be negative influences or wanting something from her,( this includes her mother and 2 of her 3 sisters) she often talks about people wanting her energy.
The only way back last time we split 4 years ago seemed to be me falling on my sword, agreeing with everything she said, it regained her trust but was doomed not to last.
I worry that she is inherently threatened and on her guard around assertive men, it's part of why she was attracted to me in the first place because I seemed so easy going.
Been reading lots more NMMNG, I've had the same patterns in all my relationships.
While committed to change long term, I am very much struggling with the immediate situation and fear I am losing her more everyday.
Let my d6 vidchat wife this morning before school.
If this wasn't a D6-initiated vidchat, I hope you are negotiating for yourself equal vidchat time.
I overheard wife mention some money that d6 needed to take in.
I let my wife know I was there and asked to confirm what was needed.
Her: I'm talking to d6 not you!
lol. Painful but good lesson to mind boundaries and butt out of her parenting.
I continue to have conflicting thoughts about wanting to reach out and offer her an olive branch.
If by olive branch, you mean respecting her right to parent during her time, being courteous and polite during interactions, and working out equal deals that's wonderful!
If you mean placating to avoid conflict, say no!
While committed to change long term, I am very much struggling with the immediate situation and fear I am losing her more everyday.
You do seem far apart, and not likely to magically resolve in 1-3 months. Any hope seems longer-term.
Thanks cw.
Yeah d6 asked to vid chat, I should leave the room in future, still very attached and want to be present even to just see a glimpse of her on the screen. These are weak moments.
You're right I have to respect her boundaries, maintain politeness and equality, while respecting my own boundaries.
We are miles apart, and on the face of it seems irreparably broken.
I fall into a lot of mind reading and I've said it before there's a deep impatience for the situation to turn around.
Her wishes are that we are apart, she gets to live her own life and has minimal contact with me.
I'm guilty of not accepting this reality and wanting to change her mind.
New thread
Link to old thread:
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2872082#Post2872082Saw my counsellor today, spoke about my fear of sending Xmas mail, and wifes anger in response and the cold shoulder,
Discussed that it was me setting a boundary and that if not used to it, it would be difficult.
She raised one interesting point when I mentioned I felt like I was hurting her by standing firm on Xmas,
She queried whether a part of me wanted to,
Honestly I think a part of me did. Although I was clear I also felt I had to stand up for myself and stop avoiding conflict and resulting resentment and eventual passive aggressive behaviour.
After the session, I have to admit I'm having a bit of a wobble today
I still care deeply for my wife, love her and don't want her in pain.
Had thoughts of me turning around before Christmas and offering her the time with kids Xmas eve and Xmas morning.
Know I will be thinking of her a lot at this time and just want things to be resolved.
At the same time I would be making myself a martyr to protect her from the pain.
Her anger remains palpable, huge change in that she only sent 1 message today
Her: reminder s12 has dental appointment at 5
I didn't respond, I had this diarised and covered.
Then s12 isn't were he was supposed to be when I picked him up from the bus stop, it's a new route for him staying at mine, and caused a lot of panic as his phone is in for repair.
Phoned my wife and we both searched the local area seperately and made all the calls.
Eventually he turned up at my flat , having got off a mile early and deciding to walk along the sea front.
After all of this she is still brewing with anger, I can see it, she is actively avoiding any eye contact with me, will not speak or engage with anything but the fewest words and is in an absolute rush to get away from me.
She's acting as if she both hates me and fears me as she doubles down on this narrative.
I feel very compelled to try and build some bridges, but feel it would change nothing when she's so consumed in this portrait of me.
Right now I feel my sitch is hopeless, do Waw's ever soften over time in these sitch's, it feels so final and the longer this has gone on, the more her hate and more solidified on her decision she seems to be.
She hasn't mentioned divorce yet, but this is because she sees seperation as the same thing, divorce just being the more legal and expensive option.
As far as she is concerned the marriage is dead.
I strongly suspect it's only a matter of time before she's with a grass is greener om
Funnily my counsellor suggested asking her to attend MC due to some of her obvious issues and dynamic of the relationship, made it clear that just asking would be a red rag to a bull.
Counsellor did have some interesting views on attachment types and likelihood both me and my wife were fluid between anxious and avoident styles.
More reading to do.
This smacks of NGS. "Oh she is angry with me, I have to be nice to win make her like me again!" Have you read NMMNG?
Thanks cw.
Yeah d6 asked to vid chat, I should leave the room in future, still very attached and want to be present even to just see a glimpse of her on the screen. These are weak moments.
You're right I have to respect her boundaries, maintain politeness and equality, while respecting my own boundaries.
We are miles apart, and on the face of it seems irreparably broken.
I fall into a lot of mind reading and I've said it before there's a deep impatience for the situation to turn around.
Her wishes are that we are apart, she gets to live her own life and has minimal contact with me.
I'm guilty of not accepting this reality and wanting to change her mind.
Glad to see you backed away from capitulation and trying to bridge-build. Seriously study NGS. It is a terrible way to live.
Thanks Steve,
I started it 2 days ago, working my way through it, it's hitting a lot of nerves and on some level I think in some cathartic way my mind is fighting it, saying no j, nice her back, making excuses for me and her.
I know the emotional abuse angle from her is confusing things, all advice online etc says the abuser can only change if he takes full responsibility for his actions and admits everything to his victim etc.
I want her to trust me again, and it feels like a trap if I own up to everything she is saying.
She's also making it clear she will never trust me until this happens.
Don't get me wrong I hold my hands up to failing her in so many ways, especially making her feel loved and respected, I took the relationship for granted.
Going to keep reading, just unsure at this stage how to balance this with the accusations, her experience and beliefs are her truths.
I would never cop to something I was not guilty of. Jdve, I feel compelled to reiterate a simple truth to you. These are words you should not only listen to and hear, but words you should heed and allow to inform your actions moving forward:
You cannot nice her back.
How is your personal growth going?
Steve, this is where I am struggling, on the one hand I feel the claims are exaggereated and on the other I accept that I have also caused harm through Ngs, avoident attachment , passive aggressive and controlling behaviours.
So I feel stuck between acceptance of my failings, being accountable ( which is a 180 for me) and the exaggeration of everything I did or didn't do as abuse.
R2C In terms of personal growth I'm meditating regularly, reading a ton of self help books, managing my mental health more effectively, making small inroads into regaining weight and eating regularly, bought a bike and getting more exercise than I had in years,also seeing an ic.
It's little things, including getting out and establishing new friendships, being less isolated and closed off and being more open with people and life.
Less afraid of life but still a lot of fear based thinking about the sitch and my w.
Jdve, the term abuse is over used to me when it comes to emotional and mental. There certainly is such a thing as emotional and mental abuse. But it gets applied in so many cases that the term has become watered down to mean any time you are mean to someone. In that case I am abusive to the person that cuts me off in traffic because I yell "MORON!" at them.
Accept 50% of the blame for the problems in your MR. That 50% is all on you. Guess who is responsible for the other 50%? So until she is ready to own up to her part in this then you owning up will just be seen as weak. Remember, attraction for women is about respect! Accepting more than you are responsible for will be seen as beta behavior and not worthy of respect.
This is why validation is so important. You can validate that she felt she was abused without agreeing with it. "So you felt that I was being abusive when I would be passive-aggressive and try to control you."
Validations is neither disagreeing or agreeing. It is just letting her see you understand how she felt. I love validation because it avoids point and counterpoint back and forths.
True
Right now as she's not speaking to me, I'd love the opportunity for her to express something I could validate
Updating
Here's the situation today,
Met my wife at school gate as d6 had left her school cardigan in wife's car.
Usual refusal to engage with me at all, again no eye contact.
Said bye and returned to studio
Few messages back and forth re work and orders etc.
Then I messaged
Me: when you pay salary and agreed Xmas bonus tmrw could you please minus £## from me for kids to have some spending money for trip to London Saturday?
(This is the trip she initially invited me on, and then rescinded invitation)
10 min wait then
Her: I would prefer we kept things seperate, so I will give them spending money
Sat on this for 30mins
Me: are you saying that if 1 parent takes the kids on a trip, activity or holiday you would feel uncomfortable with the other parent contributing money or giving spending money?
Is this correct?
No response still an hour later
I feel I need to back to her regarding getting a parenting plan in place
Was going to message the following:
I think we need to get a parenting plan in place asap,
I sent you my proposals on 12th November and you responded you would reply once you had obtained some advice.
I'm not worried about whatever format is used as long as we can agree the fundamentals of a parenting plan.
I do have concerns that currently the goal posts and agreements have changed several times reactively to how we are feeling and believe this has not been healthy or good for any of us.
If we can agree some basic structure I feel this would be better for everybody.
Any thoughts or advice welcome
She messaged back
Think we should have a family meeting with the kids on Monday, for whatever the kids want
40 min delay then
Me: yes I would be good with that if you can clarify what you would like to discuss with them.
I think it's important we balance their wishes with what we agree as adults.
And hopefully work towards some solutions and a structured parenting plan.
I do have some concerns regarding the goal posts moving based on how we feel day by day and feel it would be better for everybody if we can get some structure in place as soon as possible.
If you can touch base with me on what you want to discuss beforehand and let me know a time you want to meet.
This was 2 hours ago, still no response.
I feel very much that she is going by whatever the kids want as obviously they are more at home in the family home.
So it all gets worse
Receieved following message:
Her : if you want to speak to me about the kids please do so via parallel parenting app.
Me: (via requested app) that's fine using app, still concerned we don't have any parenting plan in place.
Do you have any thoughts on the questions I asked earlier prior to your proposal for a family meeting with the kids?
If we can not agree the fundamentals of a parenting agreement I am happy for us to do so with a mediator or third party?
Her: I did suggest the family meeting but I'm not happy to meet you on my own, I will have a think about everything over the weekend and get back to you Monday.
Me:yes thats fine, to be clear I wasn't suggesting us meeting alone beforehand only if you could message me your thoughts prior to meeting, or did you mean having a 3rd party present at the family meeting?
Her: I have contacted a mediator and they will contact you in due course.
Me: that's good, is your initial goal to agree a parenting plan and or a seperation agreement?
No response
Instead I get an expense request via same app for half the cost of s12's phone that he dropped this week.
Yesterday I offered to pay halves and she refused saying she would pay.
So I don't really know what's going on here, I believe the abuse angle is just being ramped up and ramped up, she will be getting advice about how to deal with abusers.
I think she will be pushing for zero contact with me as Demonization increases.
Don't really know what to do, obviously there will be no contact between us other than via app and messaging for work.
Not sure how this sitch affects DBing if there is no contact maybe forever.
Hi JDevast, I'd like to write more, but I need my energy to keep Turkey Day on track. I'd strongly suggest slowing down more and writing shorter, clearer messages. Even your ex didn't know what you were trying to say. I think agreeing to this family meeting is a mistake--what does it do for you? It's okay to say "No." You know nothing about the goals, topics, or attendance. I suspect you're going to be ambushed in a way that frames you as the bad guy to the kids or increases her control/custody.
Spiralling again.
Saw her briefly as she picked up d6 thus evening.
Jealousy rearing its head again, she's looking stunning again and care free.
Wishing I could turn back the clock and make some changes, show her how much she meant to me.
Be a real husband to her.
These moments of loss and regret come on in waves and really knock my self esteem
Aware the guy she was talking to on the nightclub video is a very close member of her new friendship group.
He's very together, up and coming big music star, trendy, cool, down to earth lovable confident guy.
Someone I can't possibly compete with.
Saw his IG had several comments on it from her, stuff like good to see you the other night at fireworks night babes.
And one of him performing and her comment " hot!"
It's all innocuous enough but makes my head wander in places that are unhealthy
Hanging on every minor interaction or text message.
Something as minor as a work related thumbs up emoji seems positive.
Ridiculous I know.
Venting on here to just get it out.
Back to the meeting with mediator for parenting, this could maybe be a good thing to eliminate some of the rubbish recently, although have to be on my guard that she won't start dictating and using it as a way to just have her way.
Any advice from anyone that's been through mediation?
Back to the meeting with mediator for parenting, this could maybe be a good thing to eliminate some of the rubbish recently, although have to be on my guard that she won't start dictating and using it as a way to just have her way.
A mediator, unlike hashing things out in front of your kids, could be a great thing. My ex-girlfriend used a mediator with her ex-husband and the process was very smooth all via e-mail except the final signing. Note, their mediator made sure both parties saw all communications and was acting on both their behalves, never someone one party approached who would contact the other "in good course." That sounds more like her attorney. My ex-girlfriend also had a lawyer to check over any proposal she sent to mediation.
What issue do YOU feel you need a mediator for? I thought your Christmas situation was clear--unless she accepted your proposal in the app, you were doing a week on then a week off. I don't know how long you're giving her to make a decision. I think you originally said two days but didn't hear anymore about it.
Personally I think a mediator may be required to assist in crafting an agreed parenting plan,
Schedule, access, costs, birthdays holidays etc.
I am cautious about who she spoke to so quickly.
Maybe I should message this evening as to which mediation service she is proposing?
Maybe I should message this evening as to which mediation service she is proposing?
Proposed? She didn't propose anything, she took action and then informed you: "I have contacted a mediator and they will contact you in due course." Actions > Words. I hope you have retained counsel to advise you. I don't want to see you accept a 'bottom' position in this divorce. You've got this!
I've contacted a local family law solicitors this evening for a free consultation.
Truth is I'm broke due to the entire situation so will have to navigate this carefully.
So she is actively refusing to notify me of whom said mediator is.
Getting pretty silly
Me: could you let me know which mediation service it is and how they will be contacting me.
No response
Whatsapp message 1 hour later.
Her : I'm having problems with these work orders can I drop cardstock over to studio tmrw?
Me: yes that's fine, did you see my message on parenting app?
30mins later
Her : yes I sent reply.
Check app
Her: once I send referral form in they will email you to send you all the information and ask if you want to proceed
Me: still no mention of who? Is this an issue for you to share this information?
Her: via whasapp: I'm working all this back and forth is distracting!
Have to laugh really.
Laugh then get ready for a battle I guess
The more you attempt to get the info out of her, the more determined she will be not to be cooperative and give it to you. Drop the questions about the mediator for now and wait. When she sees you aren't taking the bait for an argument or appearing to beg for info, she will then open up.
Just leave it alone for now...trust me....her tune will change when she sees that you aren't bothered about the info.
Good advice job.
I'm not replying any further to anything else except pertinent work info or important issues regarding the kids
Me: could you let me know which mediation service it is and how they will be contacting me.
No response
Whatsapp message 1 hour later.
..
Me: did you see my message on parenting app?
..
Her: via whasapp: I'm working all this back and forth is distracting!
You agreed to stick to the parenting app when talking about the kids and it's only been 1 hr.
still no mention of who? Is this an issue for you to share this information?
"Which mediation service is it?" - if being able to name them now is important.
Laugh then get ready for a battle I guess
A battle requires two people. My ex-girlfriend and her ex-husband disagreed on many points and successfully mediated. Ex-husband would send a proposal and CC the mediator. When she disagreed with a point, she'd ask her attorney if he'd be likely to win that point in court. If her attorney said no, she said no to her ex-husband. When they disagreed and asked for input, the mediator provided a second opinion. ("If you can't agree, you could go to court. She'd probably win this point.") If they agreed, the mediator documented it.
This is not a unilateral decision making process.
You need to put your balls back on.
This is a negotiation process. The lawyers do it well and take all your family money at the same time.
This is my template:
Here is what I propose: Mediator 1 Mediator 2 Mediator 3.
Pick one. If you don't like any of them, go find a couple you like and I will see if I like them. If I do them we use the one we both agree to use.
This is how you should respond:
W, Since you will not provide the name of the mediator you are recommending, bla bla bla
Ready2Change's suggestion is active and I recommend it with no reservations.
It gets you back in the driver's seat instead of letting your ex-wife control all. Speaking of which, did you finalize on Christmas after your initial strong statements with a 48-hour timeline for her to respond?
Sorry for late response, works crazy and been on the phone seeking advice.
Legal appointment next week
Will be forwarding choices of my preferred mediation services to w.
There has been no response regarding my message on Xmas arrangements
Even with mediation in place, I think it's unlikely appointment and resolution will occur before Xmas.
So not sure how to proceed.
Mediation in the UK is a voluntary process but is Start of legal agreement to seperate. An assessment takes place , whatever agreements are then sent to court.
One factor is that both parties must be certain that their marriage has broken down before they attend mediation
I need to get some clarity and advice on this, if one partner retains hope of reconciliation.
Perhaps I should move forward with suggestion of couples counselling 1st , welcome thoughts.
Even if it's to counsel through seperation.
Also wary that all the advice is not to participate in counselling if abuse is present?
Question
If I propose joint counselling prior to starting mediation process is this pursuing, obviously it's a relationship talk in some format.
There are pre divorce counselling service locally.
I would like the opportunity to talk things through before starting mediation/ legal process.
It's advised by mediation providers but not by abuse services?
Kinda stuck on this one.
Depends on your goal for it. If it’s to save marriage it’s a waste of time. If it’s to sort things out for the D then i wouldn’t worry about it being pursuit.
I guess my goal is to save the marriage, if only by being able to discuss my perspective of what was going on with me in terms of the lack of intimacy.
I want her to at least acknowledge or reflect on that it's not as black and white as she's making out.
That's not going to happen is it .lol
Deceiving myself there may be a chance of saving it if I could only talk to her.
Pure pursuit and initiating a relationship talk.
Pretty sure she would not agree to attend anyway.
But may help with seperation.
Don't know.
Emotional day.
Feeling pretty low today, spoke to several people last night and was unusually very open about my sitch.
Met a guy last night who was in a similar place.
Wife dropped the bomb, 2 kids, he moved out of family home, living in a small flat, wife is pregnant with om's child, and he's still madly in love with her.
We spoke for quite a while, he gave me a lot of advice about just waking up each day, living through this pain day by day,
Trying to focus on yourself. I was pretty fragile last night, few tears.
Shared numbers which was good.
Have to admit I feel stuck on her right now, regardless of trying to gal, reading and reading self help books on Ngs, emotional dependency, and everything I'm trying to force in on detachment and letting go the truth is I'm not there, everything is still very raw and every thought turns back to her.
Some level of acceptance that this is natural, this is where I am right now, things I hope will will get better in time.
But she will be in my life forever because of the kids.
I have quite a bit of fear that I won't move on, that I will always see her and want to reconcile
I'm always going to wonder what if.
I think I've been stuck in some level of denial, its only 3 months in, and pain is still very real and she appears to have just happily moved on.
Tbh I've been distracting myself with fighting my corner, the constant messages and changing situation and my emotional reactions.
Today I just have to feel my feelings.
J,
I’m sorry you are having a rough time but it’s to be expected 3 months in. Unfortunately I think you are going to have a real difficult time detaching with all the contact you have with your W. Have you considered selling the business or buying her out?
I wish I could give you a better answer but it really is a process taking it day by day.
I read a quote once that helped me “nobody ever died from divorce”.
Thanks L
Its appreciated, knowing I'm not alone in this is so important.
It's been discussed in the early days of sitch regarding what we do with the business.
Tbh I'm afraid of losing the last bit of contact I have with her.
I'm kinda holding on i know.
At the same time we worked so hard to build it together from nothing and it's only just starting to pay dividends.
I don't know.
So this is kinda tough.
Bumped into a mutual friend tonight, said hi, she just looked at me like a piece of dirt.
Boyfriend was friendly but clear the narrative of abuse is ramping up and doing the rounds.
No idea how to navigate it.
Can't challenge people on it, just keep living , hope she reflects and dials it down eventually, she's pretty stubborn not sure that will happen and feeling like this makes any future relationship impossible.
Bumped into a mutual friend tonight, said hi, she just looked at me like a piece of dirt.
No idea how to navigate it.
Mutual friends often pick sides after a break-up even without abuse narratives. If her allegiance were more equal, she'd probably ask for your side of the story? If she were a close friend you could ask, "Is something wrong?", but otherwise all you can do is keep focusing on the people who want to talk to you.
Message from W via parenting app.
"Both the kids have mentioned several times now that they would prefer to spend more time living at the house.
S12 has said he would prefer to live here for a week then 2 days with you, then a week with me.
D6 has said she would like the same.
I've read loads of advice saying that holidays can be more flexible as there's no school.
I'm happy to talk to you about Christmas so that they can have the benefit of equal time with both parents.
Im pretty angry.
Replied
"I don't agree to any change to the parenting schedule until I've spoken to my solicitor and we have begun mediation.
We had a 50/50 agreement in place and I expect that agreement to continue for the time being.
I'm aware that it is unlikely that mediation will begin before Christmas and I'm open and flexible to discussing an equal solution for Christmas.
I'd also like the opportunity to speak to kids asap.
I'm spiralling, why is she doing this, I've been spending the weekend thinking about how I could find a solution for Xmas that didn't hurt her.
I just don't know how to navigate this.
I think you are navigating things just fine, J.
You are sticking to your guns which is important. Especially when it comes to your children, do not placate your W hoping she will think of you in a different light. Your kids need you as much as they need your W.
Definitely speak to your attorney before agreeing to any change in parenting plan.
The adjustment to 2 houses is hard on kids.
My W also asked for a change in our parenting schedule because S7 mentioned being tired when he spent weeknights at my place. She wanted me to do weekends only (but more of them) and I said no. I wanted involvement in their weekdays, school, etc.
I think what you are facing is very common. Your W has anxiety about the separation with the kids, she *may* be subtly influencing them to say they want more time with her (or may not), and the kids are also confused. If you can respect your W’s feelings behind this, while also standing up for what you think is best (having equal or fair time with the kids), things may sort out over time.
Validate her feelings and stand up for what you want and think is best.
Hi JDevast, since your reply re-stated the existing 50/50 agreements and set the terms for any change as speaking to your attorney and beginning mediation, well done. Not perfect, but that was most important.
Hi, quite a lot of changes in the 4 days since last post.
Things remained really frosty between us over the weekend until I received a call from W in the evening.
Never heard her so distraught, Our d6 had mentioned some things that really triggered my W's childhood trauma from abuse.
She asked me to come over immediately which I did, comforted her, gave her a hug while she told me what had happened.wont give any details but it was really traumatic and she needed me to hear and believe her, which I did without question, trust in her as a mother is unshakeable.
I stayed the night and have continued to stay to provide support to her and the kids as we have worked through the issues.
We have decided to put family therapy in place, drop the hostility and focus on the kids,
Over the last 4 days my w has initiated several talks about our relationship, her experience and how unhappy she was, her distrust, the neglect ,lack of intimacy and emotional abuse.
I have never validated so much, hearing her and hearing her, her guard has understandably gone up and down through the conversations , ive made a few mistakes with my responses as its been really emotionally challenging hearing how she felt, she has remained very clear she is happier now and is very mindful of me working on her or manipulating her back into a relationship, she has admitted she must have loved me but remains staunch that we will never reconcile.
She said she wanted me to forgive myself and work on my own happiness.
I made a mistake by admitting I wasn't there yet with letting go. but most importantly there is a flicker of trust back.
She expects me to return to the flat tomorrow.
The two of us will attend family counselling just the 2 of us for 1st few sessions.
She has invited me to stay for Christmas and a walk this Sunday.
No expectations, she knows I love her but understandably doesn't trust I wouldn't lose the changes if back together.
She repeats " my love for myself is stronger than my love for anyone else and she won't compromise herself for anyone else anymore"
Obviously these statements all really hurt and we have all shown our vulnerability and fragility through this situation with d6.
I have shared details of my abuse change programme.
I fully expect her walls to go back up anytime but this has felt like a much healthier few days.
Really tough being back in the house around her, inside I'm really pineing for her.
But it's some movement, have to tread very carefully
JD,that's a good sign that she's starting to come out of the fog but she still has a long way to go. Good job with focusing on listening and validating, keep that up. And yes you are right she will retreat back into the castle when she thinks she's opened up to you too much. It's going to be a roller coaster, let her ride it while you remain to the side- the solid, dependable rock!
Sounds positive. Be careful for manipulation. Keep validating. Keep letting her come to you. Be strong.
Should really reiterate the only reason I'm at the house and things are less frosty is because of the kids,
She's really let me have it with every negative detail of the relationship and the pain and loneliness.
She's very vocal about how much happier she is with new friends etc who give her what I didn't in terms of feeling attractive and loved.
This is all painful stuff.
But we are able to talk, be in the same room, she really appreciates that I was there for her.
( she did pull out the "you acted like a friend" and the "Hope we can be friends in time" , so I really have to watch out for the friendzone)
Again the most important thing for me is that right now today, there is some trust and she doesn't feel threatened
This may all change once talking to her victim support workers , friends, ic etc
Looking for some advice
Been thinking back over some of my conversations with my wife this past 6 days.
She has mentioned several times that she will never reconcile, spoken about how she doesn't want to be with a man or anyone to touch her for a considerable time but has also said things like if I truly wanted her to be happy in the future that may involve her being with somebody else.
She also questioned me if I was holding on to hope and raised that any work i was doing on myself or changes should not be for her.
I just responded I'm aware of that.
She's not stupid, she knows I still love her,
How do you answer these types of direct questions?
Do you communicate that you're not giving up on the relationship or that you believe things can be worked through, or does this consolidate a perception of weakness or plan b status?
Looking for some advice
Been thinking back over some of my conversations with my wife this past 6 days.
She has mentioned several times that she will never reconcile, spoken about how she doesn't want to be with a man or anyone to touch her for a considerable time but has also said things like if I truly wanted her to be happy in the future that may involve her being with somebody else.
She also questioned me if I was holding on to hope and raised that any work i was doing on myself or changes should not be for her.
I just responded I'm aware of that.
She's not stupid, she knows I still love her,
How do you answer these types of direct questions?
Do you communicate that you're not giving up on the relationship or that you believe things can be worked through, or does this consolidate a perception of weakness or plan b status?
Looking for some advice
Been thinking back over some of my conversations with my wife this past 6 days.
She has mentioned several times that she will never reconcile, spoken about how she doesn't want to be with a man or anyone to touch her for a considerable time but has also said things like if I truly wanted her to be happy in the future that may involve her being with somebody else.
She also questioned me if I was holding on to hope and raised that any work i was doing on myself or changes should not be for her.
I just responded I'm aware of that.
She's not stupid, she knows I still love her,
How do you answer these types of direct questions?
Do you communicate that you're not giving up on the relationship or that you believe things can be worked through, or does this consolidate a perception of weakness or plan b status?
Looking for some advice
Been thinking back over some of my conversations with my wife this past 6 days.
She has mentioned several times that she will never reconcile, spoken about how she doesn't want to be with a man or anyone to touch her for a considerable time but has also said things like if I truly wanted her to be happy in the future that may involve her being with somebody else.
She also questioned me if I was holding on to hope and raised that any work i was doing on myself or changes should not be for her.
I just responded I'm aware of that.
She's not stupid, she knows I still love her,
How do you answer these types of direct questions?
Do you communicate that you're not giving up on the relationship or that you believe things can be worked through, or does this consolidate a perception of weakness or plan b status?
Looking for some advice
Been thinking back over some of my conversations with my wife this past 6 days.
She has mentioned several times that she will never reconcile, spoken about how she doesn't want to be with a man or anyone to touch her for a considerable time but has also said things like if I truly wanted her to be happy in the future that may involve her being with somebody else.
She also questioned me if I was holding on to hope and raised that any work i was doing on myself or changes should not be for her.
I just responded I'm aware of that.
She's not stupid, she knows I still love her,
How do you answer these types of direct questions?
Do you communicate that you're not giving up on the relationship or that you believe things can be worked through, or does this consolidate a perception of weakness or plan b status?
This is a tough one that I struggle with my own sitch too because as long as you are legally bound by marriage... how much "moving on" can you really do? So until one of you file, you can argue that both of you are still holding on to something or some hope?
You are not stupid either, do you think she still loves you in someway? I think they just want that romantic / attractive love feeling back.
I guess best answer is "I'm making improvements for myself so that I can be better in my next relationship, whoever it may be with" - maybe there's a more concise version of this.
J -
How are these conversations being started?
"Avoid R talk" includes avoiding R talks when the WAS initiates them (unless they are aimed towards reconciliation or working not the MR which is clearly not the case here).
You don't have to sit and get repeatedly gut-punched in the name of validation. I think a general strategy if she speaks in this way would be validate ("I understand that's how you feel") and then exit gracefully (harder than it sounds, I know).
I also wonder how best to validate when confronted with a direct question.
Are you still holding onto hope?
Do you still have feelings for me?
What do you want?
Maybe one of the vets can chime in.
W: are you still holding onto hope
H: are you still holding onto hope
W: no I’m done
H: I understand that you feel that way
Do you communicate that you're not giving up on the relationship or that you believe things can be worked through, or does this consolidate a perception of weakness or plan b status?
You communicate that you want to be with her, but do not need to be with her. Does that make senses?
Woman ask questions by making statements. They make statements by asking questions.
Always try to validate her feelings rather than answering the questions.
She sees your changes. She is going to test you. Pass the tests.
So I guess " curveball " is the Americanism
W came down to the kitchen this morning while I was making breakfast tea.
Stated she had been thinking again about a living option that she had suggested very early on after bd about buying a house together and seperating it into 2 living areas as we were seperated but to benefit the kids.
Said she knew of people who had done this,
I just listened
She then reiterated that she did not want me to think she was leading me on. That she knew I wasn't there yet but we would have to have private lives and that there would be the possibility of other partners.
I replied , I'm taking one day at a time, let's leave it on the table as an option and see how things go.
Let's concentrate on Christmas first.
She agreed , but was looking at properties on her phone,
10 mins later she raised it again, talking as she was thinking through things.
She raised again if we did it we would need to accept each other's privacy as adults.
That she didn't want to be celibate for the rest of her life.
I said "me neither, I have to put one foot in front of the other and focus on working on myself for whatever the future holds, that includes whether I'm in a new relationship or not.
That I didn't know what the future held.
Again I reiterated let's not make any decisions now, let's concentrate on Christmas first and maybe discuss this stuff in the new year.
Not sure how well I handled this, but I'm not going to leap and bite her hand off.
It seems like a massive softening on one hand, although I know she is primarily thinking of the kids
Have to be careful of her cake eating.
And at same time, last time she proposed this she backtracked very quickly the next day saying it was a crazy idea.
So fully expect walls to come straight back up soon
As the day has progressed , working alongside her, hearing her sing ,sharing a few jokes been really having to hold it all in, feel like I'm completely smitten with her again.
Very challenging not to pursue a relationship talk, express my love for her etc.
Sure she knows, sure it would be disastrous to do any of the above.
D6 had her phone on my lap to watch cartoons.
Oversaw a message to a friend saying that I was attending counselling, we were doing better, talking etc but that she would never get back together, ever!
Bit of a gut punch
I'm at the house still, she has gone out to her best friends birthday.
Looked amazing walking out the door.
This week has really turned me upside down from where I was last week.
She mentioned earlier how confusing this week had been for everybody and wants things to return to "normal" next week
"Normal" is living apart and being seperated to her.
Just getting this all out there.
As the day has progressed , working alongside her, hearing her sing ,sharing a few jokes been really having to hold it all in, feel like I'm completely smitten with her again.
Very challenging not to pursue a relationship talk, express my love for her etc.
Challenging, but the right thing to do. Restrain those urges.
Oversaw a message to a friend saying that I was attending counselling, we were doing better, talking etc but that she would never get back together, ever!
This is a huge positive! I hope you can see that.
Also, are you snooping on her phone or was this accidental? I think it's best if you can try to be completely disinterested. I am less concerned about the ethics of snooping than the fact it shows you are tethered emotionally. Work on that detachment. Let her be.
Bit of a gut punch
I'm at the house still, she has gone out to her best friends birthday.
Looked amazing walking out the door.
Sounds like a great opportunity for some GAL for you!
Thanks U.
Once I saw the message definitely felt compelled to read it.
That's the last time, its just not worth it.
Can you clarify how content of message is a positive? She has repeated this throughout the week
Oversaw a message to a friend saying that I was attending counselling, we were doing better, talking etc but that she would never get back together, ever!
She is happy you are attending counseling.
She is happy you guys are doing better.
Those are 2 positive things she said.
Don't over-focus on the last negative comment... That is how she feels today. Feelings change. Let her have her feelings.
Hi Jdevast,
My take - her text can mean any number of things and only one person truly knows what it meant. Is she letting others know that she is truly done or (don't want to give you false hope) is she reminding herself of such. What I think is good, is either her friends are asking about your R or she is talking about your R in at least a non hateful light. If she knew you might see the message it may be manipulation or control. With my sitch, my counselor told me to stop trying to read in to these things if it just causes pain. Same may work for you but easier said then done. Sorry you had to read and feel that text. Stay strong, sounds like you are a solid pillar for your D.
Core ~
Great points. A huge part of DB'ing is completely letting go of trying to mind-read our WAS. "Believe none of what they say and half of what they do."
Thanks guys.
This week, today's living suggestions etc have me spiralling in the other direction with rays of potentially false hope.
I need to listen to myself and focus on at least there is less hostility and some trust to build on.
So impatient, just want to scoop her up in my arms and make this all go away.
Have to accept this is my life right now, love her to bits but she wants no relationship with me.
Good work on picking out those positives U. Stretching a little lol.
Difficulty is more people she voices this to, the harder it is to turn around.
Not sure it's possible anyway but will stay the course, my belief doesn't change, but I feel pretty sappy and needy right now.
Good work on picking out those positives U. Stretching a little lol.
My interpretation is no more valid than yours. I was just demonstrating how easy it is to reframe things (if you want).
You can interpret whatever she says (or texts) an infinite number of ways. "Believe none of what they say..." Moreover, WAS's will change their feelings and minds all the time. Detach from the emotional roller-coaster.
Difficulty is more people she voices this to, the harder it is to turn around.
Maybe. Is this a useful thought?
J, I have been (and still am) in a needy place as well. The more you can recognize that feeling, the more you can get a handle on it and not be at the whim or her (or your) emotions. This stuff is hard, it takes time. The biggest mistakes I have made in DB are when I have let my emotions control my actions and thoughts.
I feel you brother. You're not alone in this and with those feelings! I'm in a small residence with my WW W for 10+ hours a day. Often when she walks by I think...what if I just picked her up, kissed her and told her I love her. We would be on our way back to a happy R. Then I am reminded that is Hollywood. My in laws brother was in a situation where his W wanted their house and full custody. One day he got close to his W trying to help her in their doorway as she had bags or boxes. She slipped, got a small cut on her leg and called the cops. With strict laws in his country, he lost any chance at custody and was close to suicide. Not sure why I'm telling you all that just be careful! One of the vets on a thread said that if W is ready to work on the R, she will tell you as such.
You sound like a good man. Remind yourself of that.
Thanks U & core.
What are peoples thoughts on earlier post regarding her living arrangements suggestion?
...
Stated she had been thinking again about a living option that she had suggested very early on after bd about buying a house together and seperating it into 2 living areas as we were seperated but to benefit the kids.
Said she knew of people who had done this,
I just listened
She then reiterated that she did not want me to think she was leading me on. That she knew I wasn't there yet but we would have to have private lives and that there would be the possibility of other partners.
I replied , I'm taking one day at a time, let's leave it on the table as an option and see how things go.
Let's concentrate on Christmas first.
She agreed , but was looking at properties on her phone,
10 mins later she raised it again, talking as she was thinking through things.
She raised again if we did it we would need to accept each other's privacy as adults.
That she didn't want to be celibate for the rest of her life.
I said "me neither, I have to put one foot in front of the other and focus on working on myself for whatever the future holds, that includes whether I'm in a new relationship or not.
That I didn't know what the future held.
Again I reiterated let's not make any decisions now, let's concentrate on Christmas first and maybe discuss this stuff in the new year.
...
...
What are peoples thoughts on earlier post regarding her living arrangements suggestion?
It's tough... she's fantasizing and there's nothing you can do. Anything you say will seem like you are controlling her. Let her look at properties online. You don't have to help her.
I also see it as a positive that she's very focused on the kids, which is better than most WAS here.
You have the benefit of time, so focus on improving yourself, be a good father, and maybe she will see and change her mind.
Thanks U & core.
What are peoples thoughts on earlier post regarding her living arrangements suggestion?
Honestly, they are awful. You will sitting there so full of hope all the time, smitten with her, looking at her leave the house all dressed up and it will drive you freakin crazy. Then she will start dating. Don’t buy the “I’m not ready to date” lines, because as soon as someone captures her attention, she will.
Then you give her the beat of both worlds. A great coparent living in the house and the freedom to see and do what she wants.
Does that sound like a good idea to you?
No, doesn't sound great when you put it like that, I guess I felt she had seen what it meant to the kids, and that maybe it was her softening towards me.
Kind of saw it as a re-establishment of trust.
She's looking fantastic at the moment and is extremely magnetic to people.
It won't be long before someone comes along.
I have no control over that, some days I just can't believe I was so blind to push her away, and now she's gone.
I can only build on the flicker of trust that is back.
Hi JDevast,
Sounds like a H3llish living arrangement, much like ‘nesting’, The one family I knew who chose nesting, it initially assuaged the ex-wife’s guilt that she was harming the kids, but it was horrible for the ex-husband, who kept finding used condoms in the trash. You, in contrast, may actually hear the noises from these other partners.
A clean no-contact break, imho, makes it much easier to move on. I wouldn’t humor her fantasy.
I couldn't cope if she was with someone new.
I'm having a hard enough time being at family house with kids this morning, she went out last night for friends birthday, know she went to a club, received message at 3.30am "I'm staying at ***'s ( new friend) please don't worry, hope the kids are fine"
So my imagination is doing loops.
Tough week interspersed with glimmers of increased trust, being at family home, family therapy etc and somehow being more exposed to her wishes to be seperated and never reconcile.
I don't really know how to handle all this, some big realizations around how she was trying to communicate for ages what she needed to feel loved, and my reacting as if she was criticising or attacking me.
She must have been so frustrated and lonely.
Heartbroken I can't turn the clock back and wake that guy up.
Torn between wanting to share this realization with her , maybe at family therapy while it's still just the 2 of us attending.
Part of my abuse change programme involves several letters to wife as well.
J,
No letters right now. If you want to know why read uchens thread. Years down the road you can revisit if that is what you want to do.
So w returned home in good spirits.
Relayed that she had had a good night, that some friends had said some good things about me.
Didn't pry further.
She then drifted into a relationship talk, that she hadn't felt scared coming home with me there, she expanded to say scared of getting in trouble if I was at home.
She went on to say how much better things were now that we were not together but friends,
I listened
She went on about how frustrating it was to try and talk to me during the r and how I responded.
I validated and made her aware that when she was trying to talk to me I reacted as if she was attacking or criticising me.that this must have been really frustrating for her.
She went on to talk about how we had not had a deep connection, that we hadn't trusted each other intimately.
I kinda froze here, I know a tear came to my eye.
She went on to say I needed to forgive myself, that she forgave me but couldn't go back.
I responded I didn't want to go back either, only forward
She went on about how she knew I was working through coming out of depression and needed to start loving myself.
She didn't want to have power over me she knew I regretted my mistakes and that I was human.
She knew that we had loved each other but that I had to let go to heal.
This all completely knocked the wind out of my sails, she knows me inside out.
Afterwards we took the kids for a walk in the woods, had a Sunday pub lunch and she states how this has been the best day she has had in ages.
She told the kids we would be spending Christmas all together,
Flummoxed and spiralling, had to bite my tongue hard many times today not to declare my love.
She knows and she could see I was subdued throughout the day.
Spending the night in family home again, she then wants to re-establish boundaries and return to "normal" tomorrow
What do i do with all of this?
Keep moving forward and living your life. If you recon it will likely be years down the road.
This is the truth isn't it.
We are done, no matter what I want, I have to start acceptance that she has left and is happier for leaving what was for her an unhappy marriage.
Devastated
Yes of course she’s happy now. That will most likely change down the road. It’s gonna take a really long time to play out.
Right now, she's living on the high of euphoria. They all do. They think that life is rosy and the sky is going to be sunny each and every day. Unfortunately after about 6 months, the real world will come knocking at her door and then she will begin to realize that even though she's left you, her problems will still exist. She still have to clean, cook wash, shop, work a job and pay her bills. Life isn't all about tip toeing through the tulips.
For now, you will need to find a way to accept that she's gone and out to lunch. Sure she's happy at the moment, but that can and most likely will change in time. You, on the other hand, will grow by leaps and bounds because you are facing your situation head on and not looking for other avenues to make you feel better.
Dig deeper for patience and keep the focus on you. Leave her to her own mess.
Thanks job.
I guess the stickler is that she does actually seem so much happier, she is a dressing her issues and childhood trauma, She's gotten fit, lost 3 stone, developed a really strong support network of friends, taking classes, got her finances in order etc etc.
I'm far behind her, been completely stuck on wanting to save the marriage.
Not sure she is out to lunch because she was unhappy and did something about it.
I don't agree it was the right thing but her support network all do.
I know the answer, I think
Detach
Grow
Learn
So do you ever tell them that you let them go?
Not kidding myself I know it's a process not a statement, I don't know if it allows the waw to know there is less pursuit.
I'm still pursuing even though its not said its there in my mannerisms and longing im sure , and it's hurting the bits of trust we have re-established.
J, I´m no expert here but all I can say is the best thing you can do is to get started right away! You need to become the best person you can ever be for yourself! Mentally and physically.
In the beginning of my sitch I immediately decided to work out smarter(not harder) than I ever had before, eating healthier than I ever had, I read all the books recommended here and then some, listened to podcasts on how to grow as a person and on building relationships, put together budgets on what I can spend and how I could save and hopefully earn more. I made clear goals on where I wanted to be in a year. I did all this while experiencing anxiety, anger, sadness and frustration but I couldn´t stop because the alternative frightened me.
I realized with the help of this forum that I can´t control the outcome here, I can only control myself. I felt like laying in bed crying and eating junk food all day. But I knew the sadness I felt would be nothing compared to how I´d feel if my W and I ended up divorcing and she sees me months or years later looking like a slob.
In the beginning that was what motivated me, that she sees me one day and thinks to herself "what was I thinking letting a man like that out of my life" but after a few months of seeing my transformation and realizing that I´m doing this for me now, no longer for her or anyone else, that feeling is what motivates me each day.
And no, don´t ever tell them you let them go. Actions, not words, always! Stop the pursuit, it took me too long to get that through my head.
More R talks this morning
She asked about the house idea again, said it may be best for the kids but we might find it difficult if we had new partners in the future.
I said I wasn't sure yet. While it may be great for the kids, I wasnt where she is in this process.
I asked her wouldn't you find it difficult if I was with someone new.
She said she would find it difficult but easier if it was a serious relationship and not a bunch of one night stands.
I just said I kinda understood that.
She said she didn't know what I wanted, that I hadn't lost anything, she would still be in my life.
That we were more intimate now being able to talk than we had in ages.
She then went on to say if it was just sex then I should have sex with somebody else.
She then said she occasionally has those thoughts about me but that it hadn't worked during the relationship.
I said I didn't want to go backwards.
She reiterated that she just needs to be alone.
I didn't respond to this, then " it's a process going through this, let's keep this for family therapy"
She went on to say it wasn't fair that I was holding on, that she felt like she had to keep breaking up with me and that she knew how I felt being dumped, and she knew it was a process.
We shelved it there and got on with work, things were a bit friendlier
When I left, she stopped came back to the door and said "j, thank you for this week, it means a lot"
Me " I never doubted you"
I left to see IC , and am now back at the flat.its actually a huge relief to be in my own space and my own headspace.
I kind of wished I'd said to her when she asked me what I wanted that I wanted to live, have adventures and fun and laughter and that I wanted to share that with her.
Hollywood thinking but better than her thinking I just want sex
More R talks this morning
She asked about the house idea again, said it may be best for the kids but we might find it difficult if we had new partners in the future.
You: "I can see how that may be difficult"
Just try to speak less and listen more. Nothing you say will turn this around she needs to figure out her own stuff. She feels guilty because she can tell you're holding on - so get out and do your own thing. You can tell her you have no plans on sharing a house with her if you aren't together and leave it at that...then go GAL.
Thanks people, I think being around her all week during a hard time/ crisis with the kids has been so challenging emotionally and left little breathing or headspace to fully consider my words and actions in our interactions.
Been pretty needy at times and at others been the rock the family needed in a time of crisis.
I'm hoping a few days without seeing her will allow me to centre myself a bit more again.
Thanks job.
I guess the stickler is that she does actually seem so much happier, she is a dressing her issues and childhood trauma, She's gotten fit, lost 3 stone, developed a really strong support network of friends, taking classes, got her finances in order etc etc.
I'm far behind her, been completely stuck on wanting to save the marriage.
Not sure she is out to lunch because she was unhappy and did something about it.
I don't agree it was the right thing but her support network all do.
I know the answer, I think
Detach
Grow
Learn
Jdevast Why do you think she has done all of these things? I would like to get everyone else's opinion you're on this as well the vets. I enjoy hearing different perspectives outside of the obvious that they weren't happy.
Thanks job.
I guess the stickler is that she does actually seem so much happier, she is a dressing her issues and childhood trauma, She's gotten fit, lost 3 stone, developed a really strong support network of friends, taking classes, got her finances in order etc etc.
I'm far behind her, been completely stuck on wanting to save the marriage.
Not sure she is out to lunch because she was unhappy and did something about it.
I don't agree it was the right thing but her support network all do.
I know the answer, I think
Detach
Grow
Learn
Jdevast Why do you think she has done all of these things? I would like to get everyone else's opinion you're on this as well the vets. I enjoy hearing different perspectives outside of the obvious that they weren't happy.
IMO... it's Jdevast's perception / mind reading. She is also GAL-ing, but you don't know how she's actually feeling internally.
I'm GAL-ing and whenever my WW sees me, she says I'm doing stuff and moving on, but she doesn't know that I'm still struggling and surviving inside. I've spent more time with old friends mainly for support that I need. I've lost more weight from stress than working out. So it's quite possibly the case for your wife too.
Jde, this stuff is difficult. Other than serious health issues, this will be the most difficult thing you will go through.
However, this is not a competition. So what if she appears happy. Do you really think she would let you see if she is unhappy with her choice? It will take a long time before she can admit to herself it was a mistake, let alone to you.
So yes, the answer is to DB. The answer is to put big-boy pants on and not sit and feel sorry for yourself. We had a poster here a few months ago. His W left him for another guy, then took out a TRO on him (by his own admission he punched her car as she drove away). Poor guy would sit and stew in his own juices every night. Then make tons of excuses as to why he couldn't go GAL. I say all the time, that the posters that struggle the worst are the ones that do GAL the worst. So go out and be busy!
Thanks people, its time to stop what I'm doing and focus on myself, I was at the house again today helping with work and kids, we were getting on really well, had some jokes.
Then early evening I heard her talking to her friends.
Friend: why don't you just #### with ( name of guy) and get it over with.
W: I'd love to, only then I'd be really hooked.
This is the same guy who was part of her friend group months before bd. Same guy she was dancing in club with.
I'm devastated.
Part of me wants to believe this is stupid girl talk
I dunno.
Hurts like h#ll tho.
She noticed I was in a pretty quiet mood later, questioned on what's wrong, I didn't tell her what I'd heard, she kept on.
Eventually I said I'm finding things pretty tough some days with everything that's happened to us.
She replies there is no us ,I don't know what you want from me.
Then the kids came in, went to s12 school concert.
She left and went and sat in the car half way through, She's come down with flu, I know she's really stressed with us, the kids and her childhood trauma resurfacing.
I know now she's not doing as well as she's been making out.
It's just this infuriating girl talk now the 3 of them are all single.
Now I also know she's really got the hots for this guy.
No saving this right now but
I don't know how to let go mentally. We have Friday planned shopping with kids, weekend is my d6 Xmas party then next week Xmas hols and spending Xmas with kids for 3 days at the house.
So you snooped . Where did that end up ? Then you tested the water with her for sympathy. How did that go ? Sandys rules are there for a reason . Any progress you have made has now been reset . You have to be resolute.
We've got family counselling in 2 days, all r talks have been agreed to be put off until then.
I don't know if this is the opportunity to make it clear I don't want a divorce, I'd prefer to work on things.
It gets emotional in the sessions, for me anyway.
Not going to bring up this guy she likes or anything.
I do want to raise that I would like to break the drama triangle we always fall into of rescuer, victim, persucutor.
Feel I have to say or communicate something about how I'm not giving up to make things easier for her so she can cake eat.
I don't know, so much I want to say, none of it feels particularly helpful to sitch other than coming across as needy.
Any advice welcome on how I can approach this counselling session.
I think it is too late for you to cancel . I’m no expert but I would listen and validate . It’s obvious she already knows how you feel . Get a notepad and take notes . You are going to get emotional curve balls thrown at you . No tears or neediness my friend . Hopefully someone can give you some advice that has the expertise
Thanks for the 2x4 Try hard,
Could kick myself for my response. And wish I'd never heard them.
Am I back at square one?
How do I go from here with all the family contact coming up.
I can fake Pma I guess and just stick like h#ll to the boundaries of no more r talks, regardless of whether she initiates.
Feel like she has been testing me to destruction this past week and I crumbled.
Hoping we can retain some of the trust around the kids etc.
Great news JD , glad to hear you are going to step up . Show her what a great father you are , take extra care of the kids . No letting them get lost
. Try not to convey your neediness and hopelessness to her . I think you are in need of detachment my friend . Get sandys rules buttoned down so it becomes second nature . If you find your mind overthinking about her and your situation, use the stop sign trick and have something else to occupy your mind
Yep going to re-read the detachment threads again now.
Read them many times and can't seem to make any progress, I guess hope still gets in the way.
So angry about statements this week about just wanting to be on her own, to heal and deal with the trauma, I really believed her.
Maybe her thoughts are all screwy but it's clear she has been "hooked" on the idea of this guy for some time.
Really need that stop sign to kick in.
Hi JDevast,
Detachment isn't the absence of hope. When you go into a boss' office for a review, meet with a customer for a sale, or buy a lottery ticket--can you HOPE for a big outcome without DEPENDING on one?
But you are letting her cake eat right now. Words don’t let her know. Actions do.
And this is going to be tough to hear, I’m sorry..... but she could very well be happy. Sounds like she did for herself what we do when we DB. She felt she needed to work on herself and be good with herself. And she seems to be doing that. And sometimes, just like when the LBS DB’s and does all their own internal work, they find the person they became doesn’t fit with the the WAS anymore.
And I don’t say this because I don’t think there is any hope. Actually, you are more hopeful than most. But I do believe she is happy right now with who she is. She’s not codependent anymore.
But you Know, when she sees your changes after after a long period of time . And I mean a very long period of time, you two might just fit back together in a very healthy relationship.
There is a poster named. crimson who posted some time ago. I think him and his wife divorced and then got back together. It was about 2 years and she was done done done, but he did the work and he proved the changes and he was steady and strong and he was kind but had boundaries and quit letting her cake eat.
There’s hope. Are you going to IC? You would probably benefit a lot more from that rather than MC
J ~
The script is simple:
Her: I want a D.
You: I understand you want a D. I want to work on the MR. But it takes two to stay married, and only one to D. I will not stand in your way.
Her: Blah blah blah.
If you have a boundary to assert, state it. Read up on boundaries if you intend to do this.
Otherwise you validate the h3ll out of her and clam up your feelings. If you can't handle things, you politely leave. I strongly advise you try to hang in there and stay as neutral as you can, within your limits.
She does not want to hear your feelings. She will recoil. Any feeling you share will be invalidated, unless it is a feeling that furthers her goal. (For instance, if you say, "I'm committed to being positive whatever happens" she will think "Great! Now I feel less guilty!") So you share nothing, until she commits to working on the MR. Leave her to deal with her own feelings.
If it helps, think of validation and active listening at this time like holding up a mirror to deflect all the cosmic death rays pointed at you.
Hey J - been reading your sit a little here and there. I'm sorry you're in such a [censored] up situation. If it helps, know that many of us are.
Boundaries are there for your protection. I stopped snooping at BD. It did me no good, just made me feel worse. (From reading your sit, I'm going to suggest that it made you feel much worse too.) Not snooping is also a concrete action that you can take. And you'll feel much better.
If she is viewing herself as single now, then you, for your own protection, need to put your walls up. I know it's not what you want, but I think it is necessary that you do that.
If R talks happen - and LBSes at your stage will inevitably do that (I did it too), find non-confrontational ways to state your boundaries if you are suddenly led there. These don't have to be monumental statements or events - just state them plainly and clearly.
For instance, when pressed, I told my W that I did not want to be with someone who did not want to be with me. It stunned her - I think she thought I would do absolutely anything to keep the MR. I also told her that she was free to leave, I was not going to beg her to stay if she wanted to leave.
The thing is, you actually have to feel that way. You can't fake statements like those. You have to mean it. And that takes time - to understand yourself and how you truly feel. That's also why vets recommend to avoid R talks as much as possible - to distance yourself, discover who you really are and how you really feel.
Only then can you speak clearly and from a place of truth and authenticity.
Stay strong and take care
Thanks everyone for all your input, it helps so much to recent myself even for short moments while I've been spiralling emotionally.
Brain was doing loops all night thinking of her with this guy and the limerance they would both be in.
The stop sign technique really helped and I was able to sleep for a few hours.
(Few waking night terrors about her and him but I know I can't control my dreams, and that they will lessen)
She came downstairs this morning, I'd got the kids sorted as she was really ill with flu.
I asked how she was feeling
She replied, really rotten, I'll be ok but let's not have talks today,
Me: I'm sorry you're feeling rotten, completely agree about no more r talks. Let's just get on with the day.
2 mins pass
Her: the talks are too much, its as if you think I'm just happy and not grieving as well. It's been really difficult for me to.
I feel you want me to say I love you or make things better.
Or that you want to see I'm hurting.
I'm really struggling too. It's not fair and feels selfish the same as you were during MR.
I validated each of her points then wound up the conversation to get the kids to school.
Just getting on with the day and work now together but no talks
Getting there man . Why did you ask how she was feeling? How did that work out ? You are going to have to fake it until you make it
Asked because she had flu. Not the right thing to do?
J,
Asking her how she’s feeling is the right thing to do. I’m more concerned about how much time you spend together. You’re never going to be able to detach and she’s never going to learn to miss you.
The contact is hard, the situation we just went through with kids was a nesscessity.
We stuck together on the important things, ie: kids wellbeing but being around each other pretty much 24/7 for a week was emotionally difficult for both of us, and made db'ing tough.
Too many opportunities to talk about the r, our childhood situations, our mental health.
All been too much and at the same time I love her being close in my life.
Now this week with work Christmas rush, kids Christmas commitments, injured pet etc we are in the same boat.
She started yet another talk about an hour ago, about finding happiness and self love within, that it took her years for it to be not just words, and finally connect with herself,
That we couldn't keep looking at our childhoods as excuses.
I validated but kept things very brief and said the solutions aren't in the past.
Or look for validation outside ourselves, she then said break ups are easier without kids involved, that usually somebody would just go and sleep with someone else, that's what you should do.
I kinda looked at her in her eyes
She then backchecked and said but that wouldn't be healing , it would just be a distraction.
Me: I agree
She went on to say she can't help me, that she only has enough for her and the kids.
I'm just listening at this point.
Then she raises that since the incident with d6 and the realization that she hasn't finished working on her childhood trauma she has changed track on where she was with everything compared to where she was while we were fighting about parenting plan etc Just over a week ago
I closed off the conversation pleasantly enough and we got back to work.
I'm taking her words as meaning she is hopefuly refocused on the kids and her healing compared to partying and finding someone else. But who knows what's going on in her head.
Will listen and validate when I have to,
Maintain as much of a Pma as possible until Christmas is over, then takes things day at a time with more focus on myself
Rest of the day went pretty smoothly,
Quieter than usual, less chat, focus on work and kids.
Came to the realization regarding my emotional immaturity through all of this and probably throughout MR.
Time to start considering every action and thought through the lens of what would an emotionally mature and intelligent man do.
May have to fake it to start with, but feel it would help regain elements of trust and respect.
Because to be honest while it's been a healthier situation for the kids I've been guilty of maybe a little too much kindness and emotional reactivity to her , whenever I'm around her. Classic NGS.
Family therapy tomorrow, not sure what it will bring up.
Pretty sure my role should be to just validate.
If she goes off about me not moving on or how I seem to not respect her wishes and just want her back
Not really sure how to respond.
One of those situations when the counsellor may push for how I feel rather than just validating.
Don't confuse feelings(Anger,frustration,sadness,happiness) for beliefs(I want to be married. I want to be divorced).
I always (try to) put listening to understand at the top of "My role". Validate the emotions. Listen and clarify.
It is OK. to stand firm on your core values, IF SOME ASKS for your thoughts. "I don't believe D is the solution to our problems". DO NOT BE WORDY.
I believe family therapy is different than MC. Focus on your children's needs.