Divorce/WAW due to my infidelity Part 4

Divorcebusting.com

Orig thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2853370&page=1
Second thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2856505&page=1
Third thread: https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2862693

Quick recap:

I cheated over a span of two years (though had never cheated before that), came clean in mid-2018, we agreed to work together, I took a local job (cheating was done when I was on the road) in April, she BD'd me in May, she moved out in Aug, final papers signed (post-mediation) in Nov.

From the previous thread:

Question: what does everyone do re: social media? Neither of us post much but there has been more of D4 lately. Candidly, part of it for me is to show others that I'm a great dad and her what she's missing out on. Not good reasons, I know, but I also know that it helps to memorialize her childhood so some posting is reasonable. But once D is finalized, do I unfriend W all over the place or still give her a view in?

Originally Posted by rooskers

I think this is a very individual decision and also depends on whether you are able to co-parent with her or have to end up parallel parenting.

I hadn't heard of "parallel parenting" until now, interesting. I'm not sure what the major differences are, though. We're divorcing so it's not like we are spending time discussing non-D4 items. From what I'm seeing it sounds like the major differences between the two are that parallel is more rigid, communications in parallel are done in writing, and that interactions are limited in parallel. Is there anything else? If that's the case then I think that parallel aligns best with DB.

Originally Posted by rooskers

I can only tell you that my XW blocked me from Facebook and I likewise blocked her. I made the decision not out of revenge but because it helped me to detach. The ultimate deciding factor was D13 said she did not want her mother to have access to what we were doing. So my Facebook page is about my adventures with D13 and I make sure to delete any comments or material that talk about divorce or my previous relationship. My Facebook page is a public journal for my family and friends only, my XW is not part of my family and definitely not a friend. Maybe things will change in the future.

Good points to consider. D4 thinks that our situation is normal so no opinion from her.

I would let her decide if she wants to view your page. I would advise you block seeing her posts.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

Question: what does everyone do re: social media? Neither of us post much but there has been more of D4 lately. Candidly, part of it for me is to show others that I'm a great dad and her what she's missing out on. Not good reasons, I know, but I also know that it helps to memorialize her childhood so some posting is reasonable. But once D is finalized, do I unfriend W all over the place or still give her a view in?

I'm still "friends" with my XW on FB. Neither of us post much there either, and neither of us post about our R's on there at all. So I never felt the need to block or "unfriend" her. Some WAS's just go nuts posting stuff that seems engineered to get under the LBS's skin, if that's the case I wouldn't hesitate to unfriend her if it bothers you. It's your call.

Like LH said there is a feature where you can hide someone's posts from your feed while remaining friends with them. They don't know you've changed the setting, all that happens is you just quit seeing stuff they post unless you bother to go to their profile and look. I've never used it on my XW but have before on my GF, LOL!

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Like LH said there is a feature where you can hide someone's posts from your feed while remaining friends with them. They don't know you've changed the setting, all that happens is you just quit seeing stuff they post unless you bother to go to their profile and look. I've never used it on my XW but have before on my GF, LOL!

Yeah, I've used that on my mom - too many cat and political posts.

I think that I can handle seeing whatever, my wonder was more around whether it's a form of continued engagement and I should give her space. I'm personally not bothered, though, so I suppose that I'll leave it be.

Better yet, get rid of all social media. I am SM free and I love my life!!

Quote

I hadn't heard of "parallel parenting" until now, interesting. I'm not sure what the major differences are, though.

Parallel parenting is an arrangement in which divorced parents are able to co-parent by means of disengaging from each other, and having limited direct contact, in situations where they have demonstrated that they are unable to communicate with each other in a respectful manner.

First I heard about it was here on the board, where the WW was so out of control and would not cooperate with the LBH. He even followed her and their five adopted children to Canada, in hopes of seeing his kids. She was unbelievable! Even after the Judge laid it out, she would not cooperate and was constantly being fined. Last I heard, he was being a super dad, and she was leaving the kids with her mother so she could run around with OM. The LBH and WW could only use email (I think, and give the court copies, if necessary) to correspond, b/c she was such a horse's behind over the phone, he could not have a civil conversation with her about the kids. And so it is with some WW's. They are so full of rage at the LBH, they won't relent......even for the sake of their children.

Hey, been a while since I've posted. Really hasn't been much to share which is almost worth sharing itself. We're in a decent routine now. Single parenting isn't easy but I'm learning from my mistakes (e.g. going to another room and taking deep breaths when D4 hits a nerve rather than continuing to engage and eventually being more direct than I want to be). I'm also making GREAT progress on cooking - have 5+ recipes under my belt (and the Instant Pot arrives next week, ha!). House is almost completely unpacked. Still need some more furniture and art but it's definitely home now.

Thanksgiving was solo this year. STBXW has D4 in her hometown. My parents are in my city but I'm not talking to them. They doubled down on the antagonism by posting pictures of them watching STBXW's dog on Facebook (they have done more for her than for me). So, decided to skip hanging out with them. Plus side is that it has given me more time to finish some books, work out, and finish unpacking. It's been good to relax. But, there's a challenge...

STBXW emailed me last week saying that "D4 has been saying for the past few weeks how she keeps telling [her] that she misses [her] when she's with [me]" and that I'm not letting D4 see her mom during my time with her. Our agreement is that, if D4 wants to see the other parent, we'll make that happen, whether a few hours on a weekend or via Facetime. However, D4 only asks if and when she's having a pre-bedtime meltdown. This was an area of disagreement when we were married - STBXW would extend bedtime routine by up to 45 minutes to placate D4, I was (am) more of a "what do you need? Nothing? Ok, love you, good night" parent. I let STBXW know that this was more of a delay tactic than anything, avoided saying anything incendiary (different parenting styles, D4 barely mentions you when you aren't around, when she does it's because she wants the three of us together), so some kudos to myself. But then today STBXW responds with screenshots from the divorce agreement that "prove" that D4 has the "right" to talk to STBXW any time she asks (it doesn't say that) and then goes on to list signs of separation anxiety that she believes D4 is exhibiting. I don't see them myself and the school isn't reporting issues. So, trying to figure out how to respond. Few options I'm thinking about:

1) Ignore it altogether (bad idea - she'll come back to me)
2) Email her back to say that I am willing to talk in person or over the phone. I like this because I find her email to be accusatory (basically saying that I'm not doing what is in Lila's best interests) and this gets us out of misinterpreting tone
3) Respond via email thanking her for her input, validating that she has concerns and that we have Lila's best interests at heart, and essentially ignore the asks with which I disagree (as I write this I hear the conflict-avoider in me)
4) Respond via email and address each and every item in depth, including saying that we have different parenting styles, that she doesn't have D4 reach out to me, and so on (as I write this it seems ripe for escalation)

Ok, now that I've written these down it seems like 2 is the only decent approach. Any other suggestions?

And, regardless of the approach, do I mention that I feel like she's accusing me of not putting D4's needs first (among other things) or just suck it up?

Mix of 3 and 4. Validate what needs to be validated. Address what needs to be addressed. Thank her for the information and end coversation/email.

No accusations, nothing.

Keep detached, all business chat.

Keep DB CC!

I suggest responding over phone call or in person. E-mails (or texts) will be torn apart and parsed and misinterpreted. Any whiff of defensiveness will be counter-attacked.

Or start with #3 (the short e-mail) and suggest discussing more over the phone/in-person.

What is your parenting schedule BTW?

I've been through a lot of accusations like this during my separation. Neffer had perfect advice. Address what needs to be addressed, otherwise, validate. The distinction can be hard to see in the moment. It will be really easy for her to put you on the defensive... be on guard so that you don't become defensive automatically, it doesn't work.

From the above I gathered you may have a convo like this:

Her: "You don't let me talk to D4 when you have her and she says she misses me!"

You: "This is a delay tactic at bedtime. D4 doesn't talk about missing you otherwise."

Notice there is no validation there and your STBXW would be further inflamed.

The separation anxiety here is your W's separation anxiety, not D4's. It may take awhile to settle down. It may never settle down. If you can empathize with your W's anxiety, that this must be a difficult process for her, while also standing up for yourself, you have struck the right balance.

Originally Posted by unchien

I suggest responding over phone call or in person. E-mails (or texts) will be torn apart and parsed and misinterpreted. Any whiff of defensiveness will be counter-attacked.

Glad I'm not the only one with this fear. Her email is a [short] list of complaints - I'm struggling to see how to address them without coming across as defensive.

Originally Posted by unchien

Or start with #3 (the short e-mail) and suggest discussing more over the phone/in-person.

I will probably do this. I'm thinking of starting out by saying what I think she is saying ("...it sounds like you are concerned that I am not respecting D4's choices...") and then not addressing the specific accusations - that way I can confirm her issues (rather than address incorrect ones, perhaps inflaming matters). Thoughts?

Originally Posted by unchien

What is your parenting schedule BTW?

50/50, D4 is with me Tues, Thurs, every other weekend. Holidays alternate by year. If one of us is out (e.g. for vacation) for 48 or more hours the other gets first right of refusal.

Originally Posted by unchien

I've been through a lot of accusations like this during my separation. Neffer had perfect advice. Address what needs to be addressed, otherwise, validate. The distinction can be hard to see in the moment. It will be really easy for her to put you on the defensive... be on guard so that you don't become defensive automatically, it doesn't work.

I hear you but easier said than done, at least for me. STBXW is stating that I'm not following the parenting agreement and that I'm not giving D4 agency - I disagree with her but feel that any defense will be, well, defensive.

Originally Posted by unchien

From the above I gathered you may have a convo like this:

Her: "You don't let me talk to D4 when you have her and she says she misses me!"

You: "This is a delay tactic at bedtime. D4 doesn't talk about missing you otherwise."

Notice there is no validation there and your STBXW would be further inflamed.

Yep, and I'll be honest - a mean part of me wants her to be inflamed, to shout at her that D4 DOES miss her, but she doesn't want facetime, she wants a hug, she wants you here, she wants her family, and stop putting the fallout from your bad choices on me. But I save these mini-rants for IC and you lucky folks. I will not bring up anything that's not in her email (e.g. that I have concerns about some things that D4 has told me but I haven't brought up because I attribute it to different parenting styles, would appreciate the same respect).

Originally Posted by unchien

The separation anxiety here is your W's separation anxiety, not D4's. It may take awhile to settle down. It may never settle down. If you can empathize with your W's anxiety, that this must be a difficult process for her, while also standing up for yourself, you have struck the right balance.

I'm glad you said that because that has been my suspicion. Thing is that I don't know what is going on in her head and for me to empathize with something I'm uncertain of may come across as condescending. Also, in the past she's accused me of "gaslighting" her so if I'm wrong about the anxiety (or right but it hits a nerve with her) it could inflame the situation.

I'm going to run some errands and then come back to the email. Right now I'm leaning toward a short email that confirms her concerns (validates), say that I'm mindful of these (without going into details or a list of examples), say that I can empathize with the concerns about what goes on when I'm not around, and offer to meet to discuss further.

I'll put money that her response will be via email and to demand that I address each of her accusations, no need to discuss what is black and white in the parenting plan, blah blah blah (but hopefully I'm wrong!).

I think you have the right idea.

Also my speculation on your W having separation anxiety is just speculation and mind reading. I agree if you validate that without her directly expressing it, it will backfire. But it may help you understand her mindset and thus avoid stepping on an emotional landline during these tricky interactions. She�s not trying to destroy you. It ticks me off what S and D are doing to my kids too, and I think it�s good to acknowledge your anger and resentment and frustration, just keep that stuff out of your interactions with your W. It�s all business.

Ok, I ended up going really short with the email, sent this:

"Hey, sounds like you are concerned that I'm not allowing D4 to make choices and that I'm choosing to keep her from you (both physically and virtually), is that correct? Just want to make sure that I understand where you are coming from."

As I re-read her email for the 5th time (or more) I realized that there is no way for me to even acknowledge without appearing to agree or disagree with her so decided to go the trying to understand route.

Quick recap - STBXW responded by saying that she is concerned for D4 and that I'm not following the divorce agreement (accusatory). I sent a note back saying that D4 is my top priority, that I appreciate her sharing her views with me, but that I'm not seeing the symptoms and I'm in alignment with the agreement. If she wants to talk more I offered to meet in person today (Friday). So...

STBXW and I met this afternoon to talk about the emails, etc. Good conversation overall. We started by talking about some scheduling items. I'm going on vacation in January and, with holidays, it would result in me barely seeing D4 at all during the month. Our custody arrangement allows that and it's my choice to go on vacation so I told her that I respect her decision either way, no hard feelings. She traded a weekend, definitely something "for" me and I really appreciate it.

Regarding the separation anxiety issues, she is saying that the issue exists and that it only manifests itself when D4 is with her. Single dads, what's your experience? D4 is happy when she's with me like 95% of the time. STBXW says that she is having headaches, issues sleeping, and so on, with her, because she's scared of STBXW not being around. I'm open to making changes that help D4 but it really feels like an issue between STBXW and D4 rather than me. STBXW wants to take D4 to counseling, perhaps have the two of us go, too. Seems like a waste to me - I am reading books, making sure that my time w/ D4 is quality time (no screens, etc.), and so on... not sure what I could possibly improve. I don't really want to spend my time and money on what seems like her issue.

She offered some bait by saying that she was giving me "grace" for some things I am doing as a dad that she doesn't agree with. I didn't ask what they were (had to bite my tongue, ha). I probably could have done more validation overall but overall it was a pleasant conversation. Went 45 minutes without me noticing. All business. She asked me about my work but I couldn't tell her anything even if I wanted to (my work is privileged - as a couple I could share more than I should but now? No way.). Didn't pry about hers, ask about anything personal, etc.

At this point it feels like a business relationship, nothing more. I don't know how I feel about that. Certainly not good but also not really bad. I don't feel like I have to resist the urge to talk about reconciliation in any form. I'm just being a dad. Well, if I'm honest, I'm also still a bit angry that I am put in the position where I have to justify my actions as D4's parent while STBXW walks out the door and can pretend she has her best interests at heart. I did have to resist defensiveness/justifications.

Hey crd ~

My W recently raised concerns about S7 and wanting him to see somebody. Well actually... I initially raised the concern, and she seemed to latch on because she thinks his issues are my fault (she stated this clearly in our last MC). Which has me worried...

I would hope that child counselors are really good at figuring out when parents are having the problems and not the kids. My guess is some are, and some are not. I would guess your STBXW is not trying to sabotage things... she is emotional and worried and has her anxieties. I would worry more about the subtle messaging. For instance, my S7 has a GPS-tracker phone watch that my W wants him to wear when he is with me. I ask that he also wears it with her -- not because I really want him to (I would throw the watch in the garbage if I could), but because I don't want him receiving the subtle message that I am unsafe. In similar fashion, my W regularly wants me to update her what I am doing with the kids. I find this intrusive, and also another subtle message to the kids.

In short, I worry about the subtle messages my STBXW is communicating. The problem is... I don't think you can really control this. Maybe D4 goes to see somebody, and that person talks to both you and STBXW, and that person decides the separation anxiety issue is STBXW's. Do you think STBXW would be receptive to that feedback? My guess is probably not.

My sense is that things are still very raw between you and your STBXW. In my sitch, I hope when things thaw a bit that we do go to some family counseling to make sure the kids are doing okay. I hope my STBXW and I can get along at that level. But I would not go today, because there would be accusations of unfairness and poor parenting, etc.

Sorry for the long-winded answer. It sounds like you are doing the right thing. Stay the course. Keep learning how to be a better parent -- I also bought a bunch of books and even took a parenting class offered at a deep discount by my county. Validate your W's feelings, and then respectfully state your opinion. Share what you see with D4. Acknowledge her concerns without necessarily agreeing. It's going to take some time and work on your part as well but hopefully things thaw between you and STBXW as you both start to trust each other a little more. I am confident you can do this. Six months ago my W was afraid to let me have the kids overnight at all - she thought I was violent and unsafe and abusive. Today I am close to 50/50. It was a hellish experience and I had to do a ton of validation and tiptoeing and not reacting to what seemed like completely irrational and crazy accusations. And it was all worth it. Still a work in progress.

Also... I would absolutely agree that you should not be okay with STBXW and D4 going on their own to counseling.

So basically, understand this is a huge adjustment for everyone involved, and things will more than likely settle down a bit. If you think STBXW has valid concerns about D4, by all means go get help for D4. That is more important than anything.

Originally Posted by crdcheck

Well, if I'm honest, I'm also still a bit angry that I am put in the position where I have to justify my actions as D4's parent while STBXW walks out the door and can pretend she has her best interests at heart. I did have to resist defensiveness/justifications.

Completely relatable.

Think of the criticism of your parenting just like the criticism of you as a H. Stay true to your values, and do what you think is best for D4. There's no need to defend. Your W thinks exiting the MR was best for D4. She has different feelings than you.

It's good to acknowledge your anger. You would be a heartless robot if you weren't angry.

Originally Posted by unchien

I would hope that child counselors are really good at figuring out when parents are having the problems and not the kids. My guess is some are, and some are not. I would guess your STBXW is not trying to sabotage things... she is emotional and worried and has her anxieties. I would worry more about the subtle messaging.
...
In short, I worry about the subtle messages my STBXW is communicating. The problem is... I don't think you can really control this. Maybe D4 goes to see somebody, and that person talks to both you and STBXW, and that person decides the separation anxiety issue is STBXW's. Do you think STBXW would be receptive to that feedback? My guess is probably not.

Agree with you on this for sure - it's a concern. STBXW will nail herself to a cross for D4 but that doesn't mean that it's valuable. Still, I worry that people will look at her, look at me, and say that I need to defer to her.

Originally Posted by unchien

My sense is that things are still very raw between you and your STBXW. In my sitch, I hope when things thaw a bit that we do go to some family counseling to make sure the kids are doing okay. I hope my STBXW and I can get along at that level. But I would not go today, because there would be accusations of unfairness and poor parenting, etc.

Look, I don't know. As angry as I can be with her I'm scared when I see her. I'm still thinking about how to validate because I want a chance to make this work. There is definitely a bit of competition - I feel compelled to take D4 to Frozen 2 before STBXW does, and she felt compelled to take her to her first movie without me. But we aren't arguing in any way, there isn't much more than business conversation. Frankly, I talk a big game when I'm away from her but, when I see her, my heart stops. I won't say that I want to beg, etc., but, man, if she said that there was a chance, I'm worried I would regress back to where I was when I first arrived here.

Originally Posted by unchien

Sorry for the long-winded answer.

Don't be, I'm a long-winded poster!

Originally Posted by unchien

Six months ago my W was afraid to let me have the kids overnight at all - she thought I was violent and unsafe and abusive. Today I am close to 50/50. It was a hellish experience and I had to do a ton of validation and tiptoeing and not reacting to what seemed like completely irrational and crazy accusations. And it was all worth it. Still a work in progress.

Congrats!!!!

Originally Posted by unchien

Also... I would absolutely agree that you should not be okay with STBXW and D4 going on their own to counseling.

Yeah, I made a mistake there - I may have said that she can do whatever she wants with her time/money, tried to walk that back today by reminding her to send me the website and excerpts from books with strategies for combating separation anxiety. On that one, I'm fine to take part in the strategies if they don't have a negative impact.

Originally Posted by unchien

So basically, understand this is a huge adjustment for everyone involved, and things will more than likely settle down a bit. If you think STBXW has valid concerns about D4, by all means go get help for D4. That is more important than anything.

Agree with what you are saying. I don't think that her concerns are valid. But if others here have had experiences in line with STBXWs (i.e. child is only showing signs of separation anxiety with parent who they are upset about being separated from, not showing with other parent, school, friends, etc.) I would be more open.

Today was a bit of a tough day. STBXW requested money from me via Venmo for D4's clothes. This is totally normal, part of our divorce agreement (she buys all of the clothes, I reimburse 50% up to a set amount). But something caught my eye - her last name was her maiden. We both were lax about that in the past so I thought that maybe she had always been [maiden]. But then I confirmed that she changed in on facebook in the past month. And it hit me. Not logical, not rational, not like I believed that she wasn't going to go through with this because she hadn't changed her name online. But man, it's hit me. You'd think that I'd be done by now as I sit in a house I bought by myself two months ago, eating by myself like I have been for three months, us barely acknowledging each other's presence at work and so on that I'd be resolved to the end but I guess not. Really [censored].

C, sorry for the "wake-up call" you got from her, this kind of stuff hurts. But keep in mind this is all part of her need to distance from you, and this is just another way she is doing that. Just process the grief and continue with your DB'ing. Don't acknowledge it to her in any way whatsoever. One of my neighbor's wife left him and got a tattoo of a dragonfly with "She's finally free!" in Latin above or below it. 6 months later she moved right back in with him. I attribute a lot of that fast turnaround on how he reacted to being BD'd- he showed her where the door was and wished her luck. A lot of times when they are set free they discover it's not so great after all.

Been a long time since I have been here. Lot has changed. Can't believe that I'm saying this but I'm doing a lot better since the divorce. Yes, divorce was finalized in December. DB "failed" but letting go has helped me immensely. My relationship with D4 (50/50 custody) is awesome, XW's family and one friend aren't talking to me but that says more about them than me. I have grown my friends group, gone out, and actually just got back from a ski trip with my brother and three of his friends. A year or two I couldn't have done that because XW would have been upset that I was going solo (she would have refused to join since she doesn't like skiing as much).

Challenges remain. It's hard to manage a pretty intense workload on the days that I have D4, and as bad as single moms have it, it feels a little tougher as a single dad - my colleagues/leadership don't understand that I can't make meetings before 8 AM some days and look at me like I'm an alien when I explain. There seems to be more understanding when women in my group with experience similar situations. And managing a house plus everything on my house can be tough. But it's really nice that I "own" all of my life - there's no compromise with the expectation that my XW reciprocates.

So, I guess that this is a story of losing the battle and winning the war. Then again, as Steve85 and others will likely say, this was just one battle and the overall war is still going. I'm still open to R but, frankly, she would have to be willing to make at least half of the changes that I was willing to make. I can't do this unilaterally (sorry to the DB book, if your partner isn't invested at all you can't save it all on your own).

One question: someone recommended a book on dating and I can't seem to find it. Any suggestions? No, not running out there but want to do some research.

So, thanks again to everyone on this board for all of your support. When I joined nine months ago I was desperate to save my marriage. I've learned that I had to save myself before I could save anything else. Maybe this is the end of my marriage journey, or maybe it's just the end of the beginning. Who knows. But I can say that you all helped me at least as much as my weekly therapy.

How to be a 3% man by Corey Wayne

Glad to see DB worked for you crd. Life starts there: with ourselves first.

Keep the things learned, improve as a man and as a father. Time is yours.

Good to read your update. Keep strong there!

c,

DB isn't just about saving your marriage, it is actually a way of saving you. We all come here hoping that by some miracle that DB can reveal the magic key to save our relationships/marriages. Unfortunately, that is not always the case, but we, the LBS, come out the other side much stronger, more independent and learn so much along the way about ourselves and yes, we all have had to learn some really hard things such as detachment, patience and take care of that "itch" to fix things for our spouses if we could.

Think back to when you first arrived here and then look at where you are today...you are a far wiser man who has provided sage advice to others and yes, you rediscovered the man you were pre-crisis. You may not have saved your marriage and been a success story that way...but you are truly a success story in your own right.

Originally Posted by job

Think back to when you first arrived here and then look at where you are today...you are a far wiser man who has provided sage advice to others and yes, you rediscovered the man you were pre-crisis. You may not have saved your marriage and been a success story that way...but you are truly a success story in your own right.

Hey Job, thanks, that's exactly how I'm feeling. I came here scared and desperate, willing to do anything to save my marriage including sacrificing myself. I still don't think that this is the right outcome for D4 but it's far better than the status quo would have been. And who knows what happens next?

Funny side story, the people who bought our old house reached out because I still had mail there. While picking it up I ran into my old neighbors who were simply great people, they and D4 really got along. Anyway, decided to get together with all for dinner. The buyers were just re-married, both previously divorced, and the husband writes books on the impact of divorce on children and how to mitigate it. Got a thumbs up from them regarding my interaction with D4 (she was there) and have new people in my support network.